Gold & Silver Forum - SHOOTOUTS!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ ShortStroke (Post 1649239)

Wanting to elaborate, I don't think we've ever analyzed and compared shootout scenario’s.[/FONT][/COLOR]

I mean - we've talked about some in the news - commenting on JBT's or cleansing the genepool. Generalizing for the most part unfortunately.
I would think it would behoove us to study these more to see what we can learn from them - rather than Monday morn QB.

Post Shootout articles and vids.
discuss.

this should be interesting I think.

:ok: I’ll offer up three gunfights for comparison. This is a long post about LOTS of bullets fired ... The first has no movie to convey the reality of it.

The famous “Gunfight at the OK Corral” was about the right to carry a weapon then in Tombstone, the lead-up to the gunfighting event.

Relevant law in Tombstone, 1881
Ordinances Relevant in the Preliminary Hearing in the Earp-Holliday Case, Heard before Judge Wells Spicer.

November 1881

Ordinance No. 9:
"To Provide against Carrying of Deadly Weapons" (effective April 19, 1881).
Section 1. "It is hereby declared to be unlawful for any person to carry deadly weapons, concealed or otherwise [except the same be carried openly in sight, and in the hand] within the limits of the City of Tombstone.
Section 2: This prohibition does not extend to persons immediately leaving or entering the city, who, with good faith, and within reasonable time are proceeding to deposit, or take from the place of deposit such deadly weapon.
Section 3: All fire-arms of every description, and bowie knives and dirks, are included within the prohibition of this ordinance."
Ordinance No. 7, Section 1:
"Any establishment, house of prostitution or other place open to the public and it shall be the duty of any officer to enter such place and at once arrest such persons as he may then find engaged in or causing such breach of the peace." (effective April 12, 1881).

Possibility of a concealed weapon on Tom McLaury
Whether Tom McLaury actually did have a concealed revolver in his pants at the time of his beating by Wyatt remains a historical mystery. It is known from the later testimony of saloon-keeper Andrew Mehan at the Spicer Hearing that at this same time of the beating, between 1 and 2 P.M., Tom McLaury did deposit his revolver at the nearby Capital Saloon on the southwest corner of Fremont and 4th Street. Further, one of the witnesses to Tom's beating (A. Bauer) would testify that he saw Tom AFTER the beating, at the Capital Saloon. Thus, unless Tom visited the Capital Saloon both before and after his beating by Earp, he left the revolver there after the beating and therefore was armed during the beating by Wyatt, just as Wyatt believed him to be. Wyatt, from this actions, thought Tom was possibly carrying a weapon to back up his friend Ike. However, it is possible that Tom was merely carrying the revolver as protection from robbery, since he intended to receive $3000, some of it in cash the next day, from sale of beefstock. Because of Wyatt's beating, he ended up doing this without the weapon, however.

Depositing his revolver at the saloon was an act that, according to city ordinance, Tom should have performed the previous day when he first arrived in town. The fact that Tom left his revolver at the Capital Saloon on the 26th, and not at the West End Corral on the 25th when he arrived in town more than 24 hours earlier, shows that Tom McLaury did indeed carry his revolver as a concealed weapon into town for some time, contrary to city ordinance which required weapons to be deposited immediately upon arrival. Tom's reason for leaving his revolver at the saloon after being beaten by Wyatt would appear that he wished to give Wyatt no further excuse for violence. However, the Earps had no way of knowing that Tom had gotten rid of the weapon.

In any event, Tom's revolver, like Ike Clanton's arms, remained at a nearby saloon during the O.K. Corral gunfight.

By the time Ike and Tom had seen doctors for their head wounds, it was getting into the early afternoon. The day was chilly, with snow still on the ground in some places. Neither Tom nor Ike had slept, but had spent the night gambling. Now they were both out-of-doors, both wounded from head beatings, and at least Ike was still drunk. Their ability to organize an ambush in their condition has been questioned.

The fight

Virgil Earp deputized Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday to support him and Morgan Earp in preparation for the gunfight. Wyatt spoke of his brothers Virgil and Morgan as the "marshals" while he acted as "deputy." Virgil carried a cane in his right hand to signify his intent to avoid a fight, but gave his short double-barrelled shotgun (coach gun) to Doc Holliday, who concealed it under his longcoat.
Ike Clanton, Billy Claiborne, and other Cowboys had been spoiling for a fight, and the Earps and Holliday were determined to give it. Martha J. King, who was in Bauer's Butcher Shop on Fremont Street when the Earp party passed, testified that one of the Earps [Morgan] on the outside of that party looked around and said to Doc Holliday, "...let them have it!" to which Holliday replied, "All right."[5]

When the Earp party reached the alley between the MacDonald House and Fly's Boarding House, the Cowboys came out to meet them, so that both sides were drawn up in rough lines facing one another at extremely close range. According to Addie Bourland, a seamstress who witnessed the fight from across the street, a man who was probably Holliday stepped forward and poked a "large bronze pistol" (either the short coach gun Holliday was carrying, or Holliday's nickel-plated revolver shining in the sun) into a cowboy's belly (probably Frank McLaury's), then took a couple of steps backward. No hands were seen to be raised by Bourland, who was questioned during the hearing about this point. Virgil Earp immediately commanded the Cowboys to "throw up your hands!" But as people began to reach for weapons Virgil yelled: "Hold! I don't mean that!"[6] Almost immediately, however, general firing commenced. The first two shots were so close together that they were almost indistinguishable. There was then a gap of a few seconds before firing begame general from both sides.

According to Tombstone old-timers, these shots came from Doc and Morgan.[7]. Yet Wyatt would testify that the first two shots came simultaneously as he shot Frank McLaury in the abdomen, and Billy Clanton shot at Wyatt, but missed (Wyatt was not hit at all in the fight). This claim was meant to refute the prosecutors' charge that the Earps had opened fire on the Cowboys in cold blood. Various other people would testify as to who opened the fight, with Cowboy partisans stating it was the Earp faction, and Virgil backing up Wyatt's story. Independent witnesses generally did now know the fighters by sight, and could not say for sure which side fired first. Ham Light, a business partner of Pete Spence (and thus a Cowboy partisan), heard the first two shots from his room at the Aztec House across the corner from the fight, and went to the window in time to see all but the first two shots fired. According to Light, at that time Tom was already running from the fight.

As Tom McLaury half-turned to run from the fight and down Fremont Street, Doc Holliday emptied Virgil's shotgun (which up until then he had been concealing under his longcoat) into Tom's left side. Tom staggered farther down the street, where he collapsed and died at the corner in front of the Harwood house. He lay there during the fight. After this, Holliday tossed away the shotgun and unholstered his revolver, continuing to fire at Frank McLaury and Billy Clanton.

Billy Clanton was hit in the right wrist, probably by Morgan Earp as he was drawing his revolver, making his gun hand useless, but he gamely shifted his revolver to his left hand and kept firing until he had emptied his gun. A shot from behind the Earp party drew their attention, and either Tom or Frank McLaury (probably Frank, since Tom had no pistol or horse) used that instant to fire over the back of the horse behind which he had taken cover, hitting Morgan Earp in the back, who had turned to answer the shot fired from ambush.

The firing continued with Billy Clanton and Frank McLaury wounded but still fighting with their pistols (both had horses with rifles, but neither was able to reach a rifle, and the rifles were found with the unwounded horses up the street after the fight). Either Billy or Frank hit Virgil Earp in the calf. Frank was hit in the abdomen, but was still able to move, and went into the street with his horse, which he lost after firing near it. Frank and Doc squared off in the street and Frank hit Doc glancingly in the left hip (Holliday was the only man on the Earp side with a holster, and he suffered only a bruise.). Morgan Earp fell over a mound which was a buried waterline, but was back up and still firing, and he, Doc and Wyatt all attested to firing at Frank, who had lost his horse and was by that time on the sidewalk across Fremont street. Morgan and Doc each thought he had fired the killing shot, which hit Frank in the base of the skull below the ear.[8] General firing did not end until Billy Clanton finally went down from the fatal shot to his left breast, crying out for more cartridges when relieved of his pistol by Fly, who had emerged from this house with a rifle.[9]

Wyatt's testimony at the Spicer hearing was in writing (as was permitted by law, which allowed statements without cross-examination at pre-trial hearings) and Wyatt, therefore, was not cross-examined. Wyatt testified that he and Billy Clanton began the fight after Clanton and Frank McLaury drew their guns, and Wyatt shot Frank in the stomach while Billy shot at Wyatt and missed. No witnesses confuted Wyatt's testimony that Ike Clanton had run up to him and protested that he was unarmed. To this protest Wyatt had responded, "Go to fighting or get away!"[10] Thus, the unarmed Ike Clanton escaped the shooting unwounded, as did the allegedly unarmed Billy Claiborne. Wyatt Earp was not hit in the fight, while Doc Holliday, Virgil Earp, and Morgan Earp were hit. Billy Clanton, Tom McLaury, and Frank McLaury were killed.
Billy Clanton and Frank McLaury were openly armed with revolvers in gunbelts and holsters, but possibly, although it is not known for certain, due to their close proximity to the corral believed themselves safe in being armed.

Whether Tom McLaury was armed during the fight is unknown, but there is circumstantial evidence he was not. Certainly, some of the Earps believed he was, and that he had "sneaked" a shot over the horse he was hiding behind when a shot from behind the Earps distracted them. In response to this perceived threat, Doc Holliday emptied both barrels of Virgil's shotgun into Tom. However, Light saw a man shooting near his horse in the center of the street and so did another witness, after Tom had already run away from the fight and fallen, so it is possible that this shooting was Frank McLaury using his own horse or that of Billy (the only horses available).

The Cowboys claimed that Tom McLaury was unarmed, and indeed Tom's revolver was at a saloon half a block away, where the barkeep would later testify Tom had deposited it hours before the fight (shortly after being beaten by Wyatt). But none of the Earps had any way of knowing this had happened, and the testimony does mean that Tom had been armed through the night and into the next day, and through his altercation with Wyatt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunfigh...he_O.K._Corral

The second was about a lone gunman of warrior fame … unfortunately the best 'action' clip from the movie is unavailable on YouTube.

Sergeant York, from the movie of 1941

Markmanship was ONCE an admired thing, shooting was fine sport, remember 'turkey-shoots?' ... used to be.

A Reluctant Hero, Sergeant Alvin York of Pall Mall Tennessee

Almost UNBELIEVABLE ... but obviously true ...

Army.mil - Sgt. Alvin C. York, (Pall Mall, TN), credited with killing 25 (later attributed with 28) Germans, capturing 132 prisoners, including 4 officers and putting 35 machine gun nests out of commission on 8 October 1918. He arrived on the Ohioan, 22 May 1919, after having been recommended for the DSC and the Congressional Medal. He is said to have entered the Army as a 'Conscientious Objector'. For more information see the following links.

Newswise — The remaining shroud of mystery surrounding Sgt. Alvin C. York, a Tennessee native credited with capturing an entire company of German soldiers during World War I, was lifted on March 8, 2006, thanks to the expertise and efforts of a crack research team led by MTSU’s Thomas Nolan.

Nolan, who serves as director of the R. O. Fullerton Laboratory for Spatial Technology at MTSU, led the interdisciplinary team whose members have located the battlefield site near Ch�tel-Ch�h�ry, France, where a then-30-year-old unwittingly became one of the most highly decorated American soldiers of WWI.

The locale discovered by Nolan and his team—complete with unearthed cartridge casings—is believed to be the site where the late WWI hero carried out what has been called “an astonishing feat of marksmanship” some 87 years ago that culminated in the death of 25 enemy troops and the surrender of another 132.

“We have used geographic information systems (GIS), GPS (global positioning systems), and historic maps and primary documents to uncover the actual location of York’s engagement,” said Nolan, a native of Louisville, Ky., who has long held an interest in both history and geography.
Although York—whose backwoods raccoon-hunting skills played a vital role in the now-historic event—was presented with the Congressional Media of Honor for his bravery that day near the close of WWI, the precise location of the now-heralded event has been disputed since October 1918.

Once a physical starting point was located, Nolan and the team began their search at what they felt was “the most probable area.” Subsequently, he continued, they found “dropped ammo and a German machine-gun position marked by cartridges on the ground” as well as German grenades, all of which “sits very closely with what was reported.”

As a result of the find, French officials in the area would like to place a monument on the discovery site and there is talk of creating a park there, Nolan said. Aside from the historical significance of the find, “that region is kind of depressed, with a lot of population outflow since World War I,” he added, “so they’re interested in economic development and stimulating tourism.”

As for the on-site artifacts, including the rifle cartridges thought to be York’s, “We recovered them and are going to try and match them to (York’s) rifle that’s now housed in the Tennessee State museum. “We didn’t recover any .45-caliber pistol cartridge cases, and that’s what we wanted to do … but there’s room for more research there,” Nolan explained.

His attempt at conscientious objector status led military officials to keep a close eye on York, but to their reported surprise, he was an excellent shot and soon became the sharpshooter for company G of the 328th Infantry, 82nd Division. Moreover, although York was given the option to remain stateside as a firearms instructor, he chose to go to war.

On October 8, 1918, Corporal Alvin York marched into history. With 16 other soldiers, York and his company left their position near Hill 223 in the vicinity of Chatel-Chehery, France, before daylight. On a cold, rainy, foggy morning, the soldiers of G Company were given the command to intercept a narrow-gauge Decauville railroad supplying the Germans. En route the 17 Americans encountered four Germans eating their breakfast. They pursued them into enemy lines, engaging roughly 80 Germans. Believing the Doughboys to be the leading edge of a superior force, they surrendered.

Once the Germans realized that reinforcements were not coming, the German major shouted commands to machine gunners on the hill above to reposition the guns and murderous fire ensued. Six Americans died and two more fell wounded. Thus, it became York’s responsibility, as a sharpshooter, to silence the gun. After taking it out of action with his accurate fire, he was charged by six Germans and killed them using his .45 caliber pistol, which resulted in the remaining Germans laying down their arms.

Later, York and the seven survivors escorted 132 German prisoners to allied lines. This amazing event forever thrust Alvin York onto the world stage and he was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for his actions.

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/518792/

The third is just sad, but true.

The birth of the original 10mm / .40 S&W loading … and fear of "assault rifles"
The 1986 Miami FBI Shootout

Film adaptation of 1986 FBI shootout in Miami FL

This clip is from the 'made for TV' movie entitled "In The Line Of Duty" staring David Soul. On April 11, 1986 a firefight ensued between 8 FBI agents and 2 known murderers/bank robbers Michael Platt and William Matix. This is arguably the most documented and analyzed firearms shootout in modern history. Before the fight was over, FBI Special Agents Jerry Dove and Ben Grogan were killed by .223 gunshots from a Ruger mini-14 at the hands of Michael Platt. Platt himself had sustained 12 gun shot wounds (9mm, .38 and 00 shot) but continued to fight killing both Grogan and Dove. Toxicology reports on Platt and Matix found no evidence of drugs or alcohol in either man. This fire fight and the resulting aftermath were the genesis of the 10mm and .40 S&W rounds.

Weapons involved in the gunfight:

Suspects:

Matix:S&W M3000 12 gauge shotgun (1 round #6 shot fired).

Platt:Ruger Mini-14 .223 Remington carbine (at least 42 rounds fired), S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver (3 rounds fired), Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver (3 rounds fired).

FBI:

McNeill: S&W M19-3 .357 Magnum revolver, 2-inch barrel (6 rounds .38 Special +P fired).

Mireles: Remington M870 12 gauge shotgun (5 rounds 2 3/4 inch 00 buckshot fired), .357 Magnum revolver (make & model unknown), (6 rounds .38 Special +P fired).

Grogan: S&W M459 9mm automatic pistol (9 rounds fired).

Dove: S&W M459 9mm automatic pistol (20 rounds fired).

Risner: S&W M459 9mm automatic pistol (13-14 rounds fired?), S&W (model unknown) .38 Special revolver (1 round .38 Special +P fired).

Orrantia: S&W (model unknown) .357 Magnum revolver, 4 inch barrel (12 rounds .38 Special +P fired).

Hanlon: S&W (model unknown) .38 Special revolver, 2-inch barrel (5 rounds .38 Special +P fired).

Manauzzi:Apparently lost possession of his handgun during the vehicle collision and was unable to locate and recover it during the gunfight (0 rounds fired).

The Injuries of Michael Platt and William Matix

The gunshot wounds present on Matix’s body (six wounds, A-F) and Platt’s body (12 wounds, A-L) are identified and detailed in alphabetical sequence in the autopsy reports prepared by Dade County Medical Examiner Jay Barnhart, M.D. These reports have been reproduced in Dr. Anderson’s book. Dr. Anderson refers to each wound using the same identification letter and terminology as documented in the autopsy reports.

Dr. Anderson’s book follows the chronology of the gunfight and addresses each of Matix’s and Platt’s wounds in the chronological order in which each was inflicted. He has broken the gunfight down into four distinct phases as follows:

I.The first encounter: Platt and Matix inside the Monte Carlo
(estimated duration: approximately 1 minute)
II.The initial hits on Platt: Platt exiting the Monte Carlo
(estimated duration: several seconds)
III.Platt’s devastating attack: Platt outside the Monte Carlo
(estimated duration: approximately 1� minutes)
IV.The final fusillade: Platt and Matix in Grogan/Dove’s car
(estimated duration of approximately 1� - 2 minutes).

Conclusions

Dr. Anderson concludes his forensic analysis of the gunfight by pointing out the remarkable accuracy of the FBI agents in achieving solids hit on both Platt and Matix, despite the fact that the suspects were obscured by deep shade, dust and gunsmoke. He provides specific examples of accurate shooting by five of the eight Agents involved: Grogan, McNeill, Dove, Risner and possibly Orrantia.

He also points out the ability of several of the people involved in the shoot-out, both suspects and FBI Agents, to continue to perform both physically and mentally through sheer willpower after having sustained severe gunshot wound trauma, and provides specific examples of determination on both sides.

(Note: toxicology tests conducted on the body fluids of Matix and Platt revealed neither was under the influence of chemical intoxicants. Both were alcohol and drug free at the time of the shoot-out.)

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

I thought these 3 are worth considering here ... true tales from the past. :rose: