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General of Darkness | 03-15-2010 05:01 PM
Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range I thought this was a very accurate video, and I don't have an AK anymore. 5 Stars. You Tube
You Tube

Lamentations | 03-15-2010 07:46 PM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range He should have nailed a few 300 yard plates, as that would have helped make his case for the AK go a little further.

General of Darkness | 03-15-2010 09:02 PM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamentations (Post 2228002) He should have nailed a few 300 yard plates, as that would have helped make his case for the AK go a little further.
Well the position of the rear iron site is about the middle of the rifle. I'll bet a cheapo 3x9 scope would do the trick or even a red dot that was centered properly.

Tallinthesaddle | 03-15-2010 09:30 PM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range I bought an AK-47 last week and shot about 240 rounds thru it Saturday. The recoil is more like a .308 than a .223. It was an Arsenal Saiga model. Out of the box it shot 8" groups at 100 yards with my getting old eyes. It is a close combat firepower machine, but I would probably take my AR out first with an Aimpoint to shoot if distance didn't matter. As for the magazines, they are built like a tank, but there too, they are harder to load than a AR's. But, the ammo is cheap! 500 rounds for $126. I wish I had bought it sooner, I would have bought less AR bolt on stuff!

General of Darkness | 03-15-2010 09:55 PM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallinthesaddle (Post 2228163) I bought an AK-47 last week and shot about 240 rounds thru it Saturday. The recoil is more like a .308 than a .223. It was an Arsenal Saiga model. Out of the box it shot 8" groups at 100 yards with my getting old eyes. It is a close combat firepower machine, but I would probably take my AR out first with an Aimpoint to shoot if distance didn't matter. As for the magazines, they are built like a tank, but there too, they are harder to load than a AR's. But, the ammo is cheap! 500 rounds for $126. I wish I had bought it sooner, I would have bought less AR bolt on stuff!
Tall dunno if you like the exotic stuff, but I purchased an XCR from Robinson Arms in the 7.62x.39 about a year ago or so, and it's got just a little more kick than the AR, and is a tac driver. But it's a $1,800 rifle that shoots the piss out of cheap ammo. I know people are going to say, "oh crap here he goes on about the XCR again". But hey, they took the best of the AK, AR and FN FAL and made it into a bad ass mofo of a rifle. :ok:

Haltiat | 03-16-2010 04:23 AM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range Not the worst I have ever seen but I saw several very silly things. -riding the charging handle forward is at best pointless and at worse can introduce a malfunction -"tolerances" versus "clearances" -the AK has a longer sight radius than the M4 -the long eye relief gives the shooter a wider field of view to enhance situational awareness -if you can't use the AK's sights then you can't use your handgun's either -even I can outshoot this guy at 100 yards -when rolling the AK over on its side to shoot under an obstacle the ejection port should be up and the charging handle used as a point of reference for aiming To put some perspective on that, here is some of the worst training I have ever seen. You Tube
You Tube
At the beginning of that clip you can see what most of these training classes are really all about... an opportunity for a fat cop to bark orders at people. Tallinthesaddle, if you get yourself a red dot and work your marksmanship fundamentals you should be able to cut your group in half. The reject standard for an AK is 6moa and most will shoot substantially better than that. I'm not a spring chicken anymore and I can get all head hits at 100 yards rapid fire over the iron sights.

Tallinthesaddle | 03-16-2010 09:05 AM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range I'll look that XCR up today. I had also planned to get a Springfield Socom M-1, but after the AK's try out, I have put that on hold. That 240 rounds was with 4 different brands of ammo, Monarch, Wolf, Tiger, and Silver Bear! I think I will eat anything. One thing for an AR, the magazine change is faster.

Goldfinger | 03-16-2010 12:12 PM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range Quote:
Originally Posted by General of Darkness (Post 2228200) Tall dunno if you like the exotic stuff, but I purchased an XCR from Robinson Arms in the 7.62x.39 about a year ago or so, and it's got just a little more kick than the AR, and is a tac driver. But it's a $1,800 rifle that shoots the piss out of cheap ammo. I know people are going to say, "oh crap here he goes on about the XCR again". But hey, they took the best of the AK, AR and FN FAL and made it into a bad ass mofo of a rifle. :ok:
Twist my rubber arm why don't ya?

Haltiat | 03-16-2010 03:16 PM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallinthesaddle (Post 2228698) I'll look that XCR up today. I had also planned to get a Springfield Socom M-1, but after the AK's try out, I have put that on hold. That 240 rounds was with 4 different brands of ammo, Monarch, Wolf, Tiger, and Silver Bear! I think I will eat anything. One thing for an AR, the magazine change is faster.
It's kind of ironic that the high speed low drag M1A SOCOM is so very close to an AK-47. On both the magazines rock and lock into place, the charging handle is on the right side, the mag release is very similar and .308 out of such a short barrel has a ballistic arc that looks a lot like 7.62x39. The M1A SOCOM has more energy and is potentially more accurate. The AK has a lot less muzzle blast, 50% more capacity and is several pounds lighter.

General of Darkness | 03-16-2010 05:25 PM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldfinger (Post 2228972) Twist my rubber arm why don't ya?
Here's a 50 minutes video. You Tube
You Tube

NOOB | 03-16-2010 06:38 PM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range General, I have been thinking about an xcr but after reading on many gun boards it seems th 7.62x39 variant has lots of problems with feeding due to the mags. Whats your take on this?

General of Darkness | 03-16-2010 07:31 PM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range Quote:
Originally Posted by NOOB (Post 2229597) General, I have been thinking about an xcr but after reading on many gun boards it seems th 7.62x39 variant has lots of problems with feeding due to the mags. Whats your take on this?
That's from about a year ago. It doesn't take the AK mags so they had C-Products make the mags. The 30 rounders had the issue, and it was basically the inconsistancy of the mags themselves, the shape. My understanding is that the problem has been fixed. Since I'm in Commiefornia, I'm stuck with the 10 rounders and haven't had any issues. Check out http://xcrforum.com/index.php/board,6.0.html for updates.

SWRichmond | 03-16-2010 08:14 PM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range Shooting at yellow targets sure makes sight / target acquisition faster and helps negate the disadvantage of the AK's incredibly crappy sights, and lack of secondary sighting options. Some of us are unimpressed.

Haltiat | 03-17-2010 12:57 AM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range Quote:
Originally Posted by SWRichmond (Post 2229786) Shooting at yellow targets sure makes sight / target acquisition faster
How do you feel about high power matches? Quote:
and helps negate the disadvantage of the AK's incredibly crappy sights,
The AK's sights work great for a fighting rifle. Fast acquisition, same sight picture as your handgun, wide field of view and built in drop compensation. Sight it in correctly, set it at the battle sight zero and use a 6 o'clock hold out to 200 yards. What's not to love? Quote:
and lack of secondary sighting options.
Virtually all contemporary Kalashnikovs from quality manufacturers have a built in sight rail with repeatable zero. All the rest can be fitted with an Ultimak in a matter of minutes. It's been decades since it was hard to get glass on an AK. Quote:
Some of us are unimpressed.
And inadequately informed? I agree in principle though. Targets in subdued colors not clearly silhouetted against the skyline would be more realistic, but then people would realize that it's really hard to see somebody who's trying to be inconspicuous past one or two hundred yards. People would then start to question the validity of 500 yard sharpshooting as a home defense technique and the need for full power rifle cartridges. At some point people might even realize home defense very often begins as the orcs crash through your home's door or window. A red dot is so important on a defensive long arm, not only because it's faster but also because it works better than irons at night.

SWRichmond | 03-17-2010 07:38 AM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2230213) How do you feel about high power matches? The AK's sights work great for a fighting rifle. Fast acquisition, same sight picture as your handgun, wide field of view and built in drop compensation. Sight it in correctly, set it at the battle sight zero and use a 6 o'clock hold out to 200 yards. What's not to love? Virtually all contemporary Kalashnikovs from quality manufacturers have a built in sight rail with repeatable zero. All the rest can be fitted with an Ultimak in a matter of minutes. It's been decades since it was hard to get glass on an AK. And inadequately informed? I agree in principle though. Targets in subdued colors not clearly silhouetted against the skyline would be more realistic, but then people would realize that it's really hard to see somebody who's trying to be inconspicuous past one or two hundred yards. People would then start to question the validity of 500 yard sharpshooting as a home defense technique and the need for full power rifle cartridges. At some point people might even realize home defense very often begins as the orcs crash through your home's door or window. A red dot is so important on a defensive long arm, not only because it's faster but also because it works better than irons at night.
The author of the above video made it a point to highlight the AKs inherently bad sights, and neither chose to supplement them with aftermarket optics or mention to his audience that it was readily achievable. He then went on to shoot at bright yellow painted targets, which as we all know make a nice highlight against black iron sights. I am merely pointing out flaws in the author's own case. Emphasis added: that is an important point, as is rapid target acquisition. It seems to me that pinpoint accuracy isn't nearly so important acquisition is in close quarters. That is one reason I've chosen to personally concentrate on short- and intermediate-ranges. I shot a lot of highpower when my eyes were younger.

Haltiat | 03-17-2010 02:54 PM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range Quote:
Originally Posted by SWRichmond (Post 2230412) The author of the above video made it a point to highlight the AKs inherently bad sights, and neither chose to supplement them with aftermarket optics or mention to his audience that it was readily achievable.
Ironically he has a scope rail on that AK he used throughout the video. It could have easily be equipped with a red dot, telescopic or night vision scope.

wallew | 03-17-2010 04:33 PM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range WHY does this continue? This AK vs AR? This spitting in shoes and pissing in Cokes? You either like or dislike the AK/AR/FN/et al... As long as the bullet is .30 caliber, chances are good you have half a chance The guy said one thing that I do agree with. "IT'S NOT THE GUN, IT'S THE SHOOTER" AMEN BROTHER

Haltiat | 03-17-2010 09:54 PM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range I don't know. I have my preferences but I can wield them all.

MetalMoney | 03-20-2010 02:34 PM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 2231123) WHY does this continue? This AK vs AR? This spitting in shoes and pissing in Cokes? You either like or dislike the AK/AR/FN/et al... As long as the bullet is .30 caliber, chances are good you have half a chance
Hey, who's spitting and pissing now ;) No doubt .30 is great, but .223/5.56 has been putting a lot of bad guys down for a lot of years... But I agree. ANY reliable battle rifle will serve its purpose in its most likely scenarios... Take your pick and be safe!

Haltiat | 03-20-2010 10:14 PM
Re: Larry Vickers and the AK-47 on the Range Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalMoney (Post 2235723) Hey, who's spitting and pissing now ;) No doubt .30 is great, but .223/5.56 has been putting a lot of bad guys down for a lot of years...
The best arguments against the 5.56 aren't really against its caliber, just the fact that it isn't a well thought out fighting cartridge. Small caliber can work but the 5.45x39 does it better.

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