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- - stiff magazines (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=459451)

Avalon | 03-27-2010 10:28 AM
stiff magazines My new magazine is so stiff I can only get about 5 rounds in there and its hard work.. Anyway tricks for loosening up a new magazine..?

shades2 | 03-27-2010 10:51 AM
Re: stiff magazines Load it with a mag-loader and let it sit with a full load of lead for a week. If it's really too stiff, you should strip it down and see what is happening inside.

Bx3 | 03-27-2010 11:36 AM
Re: stiff magazines I download all of my pistol magazines by 1 rd. And my rifle magazines (20-30rd) by 2 rds. This helps prevent spring set and makes reloading a fresh magazine with the slide/bolt fwd easier as well as increasing reliability. Some may not agree but this technique has worked for me and many other professionals for decades. Bx3

SilverCity | 03-27-2010 11:55 AM
Re: stiff magazines Use mag loader.:ok: Download one or two.:ok: Keep mags loaded.:ok:

smullen | 03-27-2010 01:08 PM
Re: stiff magazines Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalon (Post 2246508) My new magazine is so stiff I can only get about 5 rounds in there and its hard work.. Anyway tricks for loosening up a new magazine..?
What kind / Caliber / Round count??? EX, My Glock 21 10 rnd mags, I can hardly get the 10th round into, 13 rnd ones, no problems G35 15 round mags no problems, not even really tight on the last round My Sprinfield Armory XDM40, 15 Rounds, No probs... I do agree with loading them, letting them sit for a week or so, then repeatedly cycling loads into them a bunch of times to start breaking in the spring...

Ag_man | 03-27-2010 03:17 PM
Re: stiff magazines The thread title made me think of trade magazines for funeral home operators.

S_Goldberg | 03-27-2010 04:00 PM
Re: stiff magazines What model is the weapon? Try a mag loader. Such as the uplula if it is a pistol. Regarding spring set and downloading, this is internet urban legend. As a mechanical engineer I can tell you that no such phenomenon exists. Properly designed springs will not suffer plastic deformation (permanent deformation) under loading. Spring failure results from fatigue and fatigue only. Fatigue occurs when a load is applied and removed repeatedly - loading and unloading a magazine. So feel free to load your magazines to capacity and store them that way.

Bx3 | 03-27-2010 06:07 PM
Re: stiff magazines Quote:
Originally Posted by S_Goldberg (Post 2246838) What model is the weapon? Try a mag loader. Such as the uplula if it is a pistol. Regarding spring set and downloading, this is internet urban legend. As a mechanical engineer I can tell you that no such phenomenon exists.
In theory, you are correct. In the real world, spring set and failures to feed due to too much or lack of spring tension do occur. Some magazines are more susceptible than others. High quality or cheap mags, I have seen it happen to both. Bx3

Twisted Avatar | 03-27-2010 07:14 PM
Re: stiff magazines Quote:
Originally Posted by S_Goldberg (Post 2246838) What model is the weapon? Try a mag loader. Such as the uplula if it is a pistol. Regarding spring set and downloading, this is internet urban legend. As a mechanical engineer I can tell you that no such phenomenon exists. Properly designed springs will not suffer plastic deformation (permanent deformation) under loading. Spring failure results from fatigue and fatigue only. Fatigue occurs when a load is applied and removed repeatedly - loading and unloading a magazine. So feel free to load your magazines to capacity and store them that way.
Wasnt they are case where they found some AK 47 mags that were loaded since Vietnam and they shot the mags off with no problems. I think I remeber something like that T

Avalon | 03-27-2010 07:41 PM
Re: stiff magazines The magazine is for my 9mm Jericho. It holds 10 rounds. The original magazine holds 13 or 14. I can get at least 12 in the original. I was lucky to get 5 int he new one. I took ti to the Range today and my Instructor could only get one more in then I did.. Ill get a mag loader and also let the magazine sit full when I am not using it.. Tanks..

DrillAndFill | 03-27-2010 07:48 PM
Re: stiff magazines The first few loadings of a new magazine are usually murder on my thumb. In the double-stackers, it's so hard to wedge in the last 2-3 cartridges that I think I have gone crazy and miscounted them. It always gets easier after a couple of months.

SilverCity | 03-27-2010 07:59 PM
Re: stiff magazines FWIW, Glock factory mag springs (9mm and 40) tend to soften a little too readily for my tastes and I eventually replace them with Wolff Gunsprings +10% extra power springs. I believe the springs weaken more from use than being under constant tension.

S_Goldberg | 03-28-2010 12:27 AM
Re: stiff magazines Quote:
In theory, you are correct. In the real world, spring set and failures to feed due to too much or lack of spring tension do occur. Some magazines are more susceptible than others. High quality or cheap mags, I have seen it happen to both. Bx3
Then you sir have received either a defective (which happens from time to time) or a shitty product. What I have stated is not theory, it is fact. Properly designed mags do not suffer the problems internet message boards believe they do. Contact any magazine manufacturer if you do not believe me. They will tell you what I have said because it is the nature of metals to behave in this manner and it is how we design products. There are 3 failure modes: creep, fatigue, and static failure. Creep only occurs in steel at very high temperature, so it is not a factor for magazines. Fatigue occurs from repeatedly cycling a load on the material such as loading and unloading a magazine. Finally, static failure occurs when you apply a load that is greater than the material can with stand and it ruptures. http://www.benbest.com/cryonics/sscurve.gif Above is a typical stress strain curve for steel. The linear portion that goes from 0 to sigma-y (yield stress) is the linear elastic region. This means that if you apply a force to the material such that the stress level falls along that line, the material will return to its original shape and size after you remove the load. A properly designed spring will operate in this region and therefore will always return to its original shape when the rounds have been removed. The notion that springs lose strength while loaded comes from people who have no understanding of materials and do not understand that degradation of load carrying capacity while under static loading only occurs if material creep is a factor. For steel this is not a factor until you reach roughly 800 F. You are free to do what you want with your mags, just do not spread this urban legend. If you have experienced this on quality factory mags you need to contact the manufacturer and get a replacement. If they will not do this I would not use their products because if they can not properly design mag springs, I wouldn't trust them to design recoil springs or frankly any other component of the firearm.

S_Goldberg | 03-28-2010 12:32 AM
Re: stiff magazines Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 2247024) Wasnt they are case where they found some AK 47 mags that were loaded since Vietnam and they shot the mags off with no problems. I think I remeber something like that T
There many cases like you have described. Not too long ago there was an article about fully loaded WWII era German MP40 mags being found in a wall in a building in Europe (60+ years of continuous loaded storage). They were reported to be working just fine because as I have explained, the laws of physics are well understood when it comes to metal behavior and we know how to properly design springs. Anybody who wants to assert otherwise, please explain the physics behind your claim. Otherwise, you either have faulty springs or are repeating internet BS.

Bx3 | 03-28-2010 02:13 AM
Re: stiff magazines Goldberg, I agree with you that "properly" manufactured springs should not take a set and infact generally only wear out through repeated compression. The problem is that "properly" manufactured springs are not a given no mater the manufacturer. I have encountered high quality magazines from respected companies and cheap ones from not so respected companies that took a set prematurely. I have also handled magazines from multiple manufacturers that will probably never take a set. This is not internet speculation or hearsay. It is based on first hand real world experience. Spring set is only one aspect of reliability. Some magazine manufacturers simply overstate their realistic/reliable capacities. Sure you can cram X number of rounds into a given space but that doesn't account for the potential of increased compression/friction on the underside of a given slide/bolt which often results in decreased reliability. It also doesn't take into account the fact that the magazine may not properly seat when inserted into the mag well. If someone other than yourself made the product, you have no proof that it was made to the absolute required specs. This being the case, life might end up being like that box full of chocolates.......at the most inopportune time. I'll leave you with a true story amongst many actual experiences......... I had 4 magazines for my 30 rounds of 9mm. I rotated 2 mags every month or so and downloaded them by 1 round each. My LT. had 2 mags from the same lot (manufactured by Baretta). Since he did not want to inventory his bullets every day, he put duct tape over them so there was no chance of any loss. 9 months into our tour in Bosnia, I asked to see both of his magazines. When I took the tape off, held them upside down and watched 30 rds fall out onto the table........well, you can probably imagine the look on his face. Am I claiming that this will happen to every magazine that has been loaded indefinitely? Not at all. The fact of the matter is however that it happened to his 2 magazines while my 4 magazines continued to function properly for many more years. Bx3

doglips57 | 03-28-2010 08:14 AM
Re: stiff magazines I'm sorry, I thought it was some kind of adult magazine. I misunderstood the title.

GRP | 03-28-2010 09:29 AM
Re: stiff magazines Maybe you got a magazine that was only made to hold 5 rounds????? GRP

Avalon | 03-28-2010 10:19 AM
Re: stiff magazines Quote:
Originally Posted by GRP (Post 2247759) Maybe you got a magazine that was only made to hold 5 rounds????? GRP
no..lol Its 10 round magazine.. My gun is hard to fit. We had to order it from the company and they only had one left and it was a 10 round magazine. That's what you get when you have a off gun.. There are so many different models and modifications on the Jericho it can be hard to buy things for. Ill take it to the next gun show so I can buy accessories for it right there..

diversified2 | 03-28-2010 10:45 AM
Re: stiff magazines Avalon see if you can get a mag loader for it it makes loading mags quick and easy...seriously helps those of us who aren't of the male gender and lack some brute strength. :ok:

S_Goldberg | 03-28-2010 10:51 AM
Re: stiff magazines Quote:
Spring set is only one aspect of reliability. Some magazine manufacturers simply overstate their realistic/reliable capacities. Sure you can cram X number of rounds into a given space but that doesn't account for the potential of increased compression/friction on the underside of a given slide/bolt which often results in decreased reliability. It also doesn't take into account the fact that the magazine may not properly seat when inserted into the mag well.
Those loads are all taken into account when designing the springs. The fact that it is under initial compression when it is in an unloaded magazine, the load from the bullets and the load from when inserted into the gun are all added up and the spring is sized to handle those loads while operating in the elastic region. Faulty products do get shipped out from time to time no matter what company or products you are looking at. It is a matter of probability. I am sorry that has happened to you. Downloading by 1 round removes very little stress from the spring. If you like to do that, great. The fact is that will not do shit for a spring and if you have bad one, it will not save you because you have not removed enough stress to prevent plastic deformation. "Spring set" is a term that was created by internet message boards and exists only on the internet. Here you go. You don't have to take me at my word. Read this article. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-99130369.html

Bx3 | 03-28-2010 11:52 AM
Re: stiff magazines Goldberg, I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree with your technical explanations. Do you have any engineering reasons why 2 brand new factory Baretta (Mecgar) magazines would fail under the conditions that I described earlier while 4 other magazines from the same lot did not? I don't concern myself as much with technical specs or laboratory givens. I am an end user and generally only care what happens when the rubber meets the road. You can probably understand based off my experience(s) and my very real need for reliability why I will stick to my gameplan. Thanks in advance. Bx3 Below are some thoughts on magazines by Larry Vickers. I think most woud be hard pressed to argue with someone with his backround/experience. Quote:
http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/magazines/ After using modern small arms on nearly a daily basis for over 20 years and having first hand knowledge of what it takes to make a reliable magazine I have come up with some key things to live by; 2.) On tough to seat mags, download at least 1 round. If a fully loaded mag is difficult to seat with the slide or bolt assembly in battery then download the mag by at least 1 round as a matter of habit. USGI aluminum M16 magazines are a good example of this as they are really only properly designed to take 28 rounds, not 30 as advertised. Glock pistol mags as a general rule should always be downloaded 1 round as a fully loaded mag is difficult to seat with the slide forward. 3.) Leave loaded only when necessary and rotate with fresh magazines monthly. This will increase the longevity of your magazines

shades2 | 03-28-2010 12:26 PM
Re: stiff magazines I had to download my Glock mags by 1 round initially, but it soon wore in and I could fully load them with no issues. Now my question would be, what changed with the mag or spring?

Bx3 | 03-28-2010 12:45 PM
Re: stiff magazines Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 2247933) I had to download my Glock mags by 1 round initially, but it soon wore in and I could fully load them with no issues. Now my question would be, what changed with the mag or spring?
Well apparently it wasn't spring set because that is just an internet myth. :confused_ma: Maybe your magazine body got stretched longer:rofl: Bx3

SilverCity | 03-28-2010 01:12 PM
Re: stiff magazines I don't use the term "set" with mag springs, but they do tend to soften after the first several initial loadings, and often downloading by one or two rounds helps with seating in the magwell. I have a few Glock models that to this day will not seat a fully loaded mag easily. And this thread is turning into another needless pi$$ing contest, folks. Get over yourselves...

Bx3 | 03-28-2010 01:48 PM
Re: stiff magazines Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 2248002) And this thread is turning into another needless pi$$ing contest, folks. Get over yourselves...
I disagree SilverCity. We are having a civil discussion on probably the most important aspect of semi-auto reliability ie..magazines. Everyone is free to choose their medicine. If even one person is helped/educated through this process then it is well worth it, especially considering that this is a self defense topic.:beer: Bx3 Next I propose we discuss the merits of the 9mm vs. .45 or the AR vs. AK arguments!:sarc::s1:

SilverCity | 03-28-2010 02:14 PM
Re: stiff magazines Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx3 (Post 2248058) I disagree SilverCity. We are having a civil discussion on probably the most important aspect of semi-auto reliability ie..magazines. Everyone is free to choose their medicine. If even one person is helped/educated through this process then it is well worth it, especially considering that this is a self defense topic.:beer: Bx3 Next I propose we discuss the merits of the 9mm vs. .45 or the AR vs. AK arguments!:sarc::s1:
I agree with you BX, that information on a practical level is what we need more of, not the petty arguing over issues because someone's ego has the need to be right. Real-life experiences trump theoretical hypotheses, in my book. Having worked with engineers in the aerospace and electronics industries for over 20 years, I have reached the conclusion that overall they have a pompous know-it-all attitude that precludes any worth-while input on your part. :moon: Probably has something to do with their innate fear of losing their jobs. No offense to any of you engineers out there... P.S. Stock plenty of extra magazines and replacement springs for each weapon.:ok:

Bx3 | 03-28-2010 04:22 PM
Re: stiff magazines I can certainly agree with some of that assessment. I have flown helicopters for years and I can tell you that just because the math and physics work out on paper doesn't always mean it will work in reality. Many well intentioned (engineered) designs have become a royal pain in my ass at the user level. That being said, I don't totally fault the engineers, they work mostly in a world of constants and knowns. The biggest problem is that anytime you introduce the human element (manufacturing, implimentation), constant formulas can go right out the window. I have no doubt that Goldberg is correct in his anlysis. My point was that nothing that is man made is flawless. I have much admiration for engineers since they create and allow most of what I enjoy to come to fruition. We just need to always keep that human element in mind to keep us grounded in reality.:beer: Bx3 The last thing I will add to this post is that you may end up with a magazine that will work as advertised and you may not. The manufacturer isn't always the main factor. If you don't get a good one, there are still options to keep them running. The most important thing is to test your carry mags to know what you are dealing with. Good luck to all.

shades2 | 03-28-2010 09:17 PM
Re: stiff magazines I think some of the mag stiffness could be attributable to spring friction against the side of the mag. It may not hurt to put some graphite in there to help the spring slide easily (shake out excess graphite). This is why I think some mags need to literally be worn in, particularly polymer mags which are more likely to bind up a bit with polymer/steel (softer vs. hard) than steel on steel. As for springs, well some metals do in fact exhibit a memory effect. I'm sure this is undesirable in most spring metallurgy however, and they are probably not made from those types of metals. I'm not dismissing the concept of a compressed spring not releasing all that tension fully as intended due to manufacturing issues however.

horseshoe3 | 03-29-2010 02:38 PM
Re: stiff magazines Bx3, after the experience you related in post#15, did you disassemble the magazines and confirm that the springs had indeed shortened and not rebounded at all? The reason I ask is that it may have been possible that either debris, rust or gummed up oil/grease could have locked the follower in place and not allowed it to move even if the spring was fine. This seems like a much more likely cause than spring set for a couple of reasons. First, with the tape over the end of the mags, it could have forced the rounds farther into the body and created a gap between the top round and the feed lips. This would facilitate the rounds being loose enough to fall out. Even if the spring had taken a set at the loaded position, it shouldn't have been loose enough to let the rounds fall out. Second, while creep is a real phenomenon, it's effects are very slight at normal temperatures. Yes, there might be some shortening of the spring, but not that anyone would notice without precise measurements. As noted earlier, the spring is in it's elastic range. (You can know this by measuring the free length, compressing it once and measuring it again. If it returns to the same length, it is in the elastic range and no amount of time will change that.) So, since the spring was elastic to begin with, even if it did lose some length due to creep, it will rebound to some extent. Under no circumstances would it remain at the fully compressed length. For this reason, I believe that the follower must have been jammed or hung up on something.

TTAZZMAN | 03-29-2010 05:47 PM
Re: stiff magazines Quote:
Originally Posted by Ag_man (Post 2246788) The thread title made me think of trade magazines for funeral home operators.
LOL......this thread title brought to mind porn magazine titles but as others said. get a mag loader down load the mags for a while leave mags loaded are all good subjestions

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Bx3 | 03-30-2010 01:26 AM
Re: stiff magazines Quote:
Originally Posted by horseshoe3 (Post 2249515) Bx3, after the experience you related in post#15, did you disassemble the magazines and confirm that the springs had indeed shortened and not rebounded at all?
Yes I did. This example was by far the worst I have ever seen (but not the only time I have seen this happen). Like I said, all of the ammo literally fell out of both magazines. The followers did not even return to their normal position but stopped about 1/2 to 1 inch short of the feed lips. I have no doubt that the springs were defective in some way. There was no noticeable dirt, grime or corrosion inside the magazine bodies or on the springs themselves but they definitely took a hard set. Coincidently, my four magazines from the same lot worked just fine under the circumstances I have already described. I don't believe that this was just a coincidence. Bx3

Godcopp | 03-30-2010 01:56 AM
Re: stiff magazines Quote:
Originally Posted by horseshoe3 (Post 2249515) The reason I ask is that it may have been possible that either debris, rust or gummed up oil/grease could have locked the follower in place and not allowed it to move even if the spring was fine. This seems like a much more likely cause than spring set for a couple of reasons.
horseshoe3: Bingo! People who live on an island and only see black cats assume that all cats are black. Anecdotal evidence is no evidence at all. :confused_ma:

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