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- - Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=439927)

SLV>GLD | 01-14-2010 09:22 PM
Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Why the strange matchup? Well, my work team had a "team building" event tonight and the activity was shooting at the local indoor gun range. I had shot at this range once before and it was my first experience shooting indoors. As expected, it is pretty boring but having the target run back and forth for you is handy. The major downside is the outside air ventilation is just as freezing cold as shooting outdoors if not more so. The last time I shot here I ran a Glock 19, A Sig P239 and a Beretta PX 40. I was actually along to help a friend decide which gun was right for him. I have long held a disdain for Glocks because they are made of plastic and there was that time one went boom in my hand. I also have never particularly cared for Kimber, despite having never fired one, due to their price tag and several reports of reliability issues requiring multiple manufacturer visits to iron out. That night opened my eyes to how outstanding a Glock can actually be. Anyway... Tonight we had a friendly wager amongst the team based on who would score the best. I felt pretty confident I was going to win and I selected the Glock 19 as my sidearm to win this bet. Everyone had a different piece and wildly varying degrees of experience. I was middle of the road in experience but probably the most knowledgeable and the most likely to perform well with an automatic pistol. And I performed fairly well. It was a 15 yard shoot with 9mm being the minimum caliber. 10 practice shots were allowed and then 10 competition rounds were counted. 1 minute time limit. I scored 82 points on a target 10" in diameter with 10 being the highest scoring ring. The guy with the least experience had simply requested "the most accurate gun" at selection time. I had kicked myself then because that was a good idea but I was confident that his inexperience would negate accuracy issues. He was given the Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp. Well, he scored 94 on the same target! We were all pretty amazed at his "skills"... until a few of us ran the same gun. I was able to put every round in the bullseye leaving a nice paper space and a full ring around it. The next best guy was able to put all rounds into the 10 ring hitting the ring itself a few times. I was dumbfounded. I did not know an automatic pistol could approach this degree of accuracy... that is a non-target style pistol. There's my lowly anecdotal report. Glock definitely had the capacity advantage for roughly the same sized gun (15rds vs 7rds). Glock also has the price advantage. The Kimber took the cake in fit, finish, accuracy and action. The action was so smooth it almost felt like an invisible third hand was perfectly racking the slide after each shot. The trigger pull and break were many times cleaner. I couldn't begin to carry either gun without looking like John Wayne so it is all rather just observation for me but I should hope this report generates some interest in what proved to be a remarkable pistol.

S_Goldberg | 01-14-2010 10:09 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Glocks are not plastic. They are fiber reinforced polymer. Simple plastic will not provide the strength required. The frame is made of a glass fiber reinforced polymer, most likely nylon 6. It performs as well or better than steel and at a lighter weight. When you carry everyday, you appreciate the weight reduction. The cost of production is also much lower due to the ability to injection mold the frames. That is why you see much lower retail prices for the polymer framed pistols in general.

General of Darkness | 01-14-2010 10:24 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 I'm a 1911 fan through and through. Kimber quality has gone down over the past few years, but they still make a great tool. Now that said, I don't like Glocks, I think they're ugly, but damn it, THEY WORK. A Glock might not be as accurate, but you pull the trigger they go bang, and when the rubber meets the road that might be the difference between life and death. I will say this, I'm not a very good shot using sights, I find it boring, but from the hip I can hit cans and targets almost dead center. Dunno why.

latitude22 | 01-14-2010 10:50 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 The Kimber's are damn fine guns, I'll take a kimber over a glock any day, but then I'm not a glock fanboy, so my Glock opinion does not count!!!!

Glasgow | 01-15-2010 01:50 AM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Kimbers and Colts are what you show to your friends. Glocks are what you show to your enemies.

shades2 | 01-15-2010 02:20 AM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 2127301) Well, he scored 94 on the same target! We were all pretty amazed at his "skills"... until a few of us ran the same gun. I was able to put every round in the bullseye leaving a nice paper space and a full ring around it. The next best guy was able to put all rounds into the 10 ring hitting the ring itself a few times. I was dumbfounded. I did not know an automatic pistol could approach this degree of accuracy... that is a non-target style pistol.
As was pointed out to me by the RO's at my range. Most handguns will ALWAYS be far more accurate than the user. A lot of it comes down to ergonomics and trigger though. The Glock is known for it's horrid trigger, but if you know how it works you can be exceptionally accurate with it. First time I picked up a .357 Desert Eagle I put turned two rounds into one hole just above the bullseye, because it is an accurate and well balanced gun. I would hate to shoot more than one mag in it though as it was a heavy SOB.

Popps | 01-15-2010 02:38 AM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 buy 2 of each and be glad you own the best-- the days of onegun are gone--- 1 here , 1 there -- and 2 handy 24/7 loaded. Buyem if ya can and dont stop . GL19 carry and the GL 21 in the bag with an AR and Rem 12 gauge 400 rounds, 3 mres, 1st aid, cleaning/toolkit , canteen and toilet paper.

essixx | 01-15-2010 03:04 AM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 To the OP..Try the Kimber Ultra Carry II if the Pro Carry II is too large for you. I have not shot the Pro Carry II, but the Ultra Carry II is extremely accurate in my hands. As far as reliability issues....at least with mine, no jams with factory ammo yet. Just keep it clean.

harper | 01-15-2010 03:40 AM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 the glock issue also has to do with the chamber tolerance... it is 'looser' so that it will reliable feed most ammo, but it affects accuracy. some aftermarket replacement barrels are known to improve it, but lowers the tolerance for slightly out of spec ammo. for a target competition, I would have gone with the kimber too.

Patriotme | 01-15-2010 11:59 AM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 I've got a Kimber Stainless Target II in 9mm. When I take new shooters to the range I usually let them put a few mags through my other 9mm's to get used to the different kinds of actions and safeties. Once they start shooting the Kimber they really don't want to shoot anything else.

mayhem | 01-15-2010 12:52 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 This has been my carry weapon for 7 years now. No Glock can ever compare. http://www.kimberamerica.com/images/...l_ultra_II.jpg Model: Tactical Ultra II� .45 ACP Specifications: Height (inches) 90� to barrel: 5.00 Weight (ounces) with empty magazine: 25 Length (inches): 6.8 Magazine capacity: 7 Magazine well Ambidextrous thumb safety Recoil spring (pounds): 18.0 Full length guide rod Frame: Material: Aluminum Finish: Matte gray KimPro II� frame finish Width (inches): 1.28 Frontstrap checkering Checkering under trigger guard Slide: Material: Steel Finish: Matte black Barrel: Length (inches): 3, Ramped Steel, match grade Twist rate (left hand): 16 Sights: Meprolight Tritium 3-dot night sight, fixed Radius (inches): 4.8 Grips: Laminated Double diamond Trigger: Premium Aluminum Match Grade Factory setting (approx. pounds): 4.0 - 5.0 Suggested Retail Price: $1250.00 .45 ACP

Bx3 | 01-15-2010 01:40 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 I detested the Glock and it's trigger for many many years. I preferred to carry the 1911 model. Many 1911's will initially shoot more accurately for their owners as the Glock trigger requires much practice and a different approach to trigger control. Why is it then that I have been carrying a Glock for the past ten years? Simple.......(almost) unquestioned reliability. This is not a flame on 1911's as I know that there are examples that are 100% reliable....well 99% since NOTHING mechanical is EVER 100% reliable, just like Glocks are not 100% reliable. The difference is that the overall likelihood of any given 1911 from any given manufacturer being as consistently reliable as any given Glock is just not supported by reality. Like I said, I ran a 1911 for many years and while they were mostly reliable (with the proper cleaning and ammo that each individual gun preferred) they were at best only 90-95% reliable under all conditions. 90-95% reliability is not acceptable for a self defense firearm and when one has to compromise cleanliness or ammo selection just to get something to run, this is not ideal. A friend of mine who owned a gun store finally convinced me to try out a Glock to see if I could get it to malfunction. In thousands of rounds I could not get one of his stock guns to fail. He also had a sales technique that he would employ for prospective handgun customers. He would take his carry Glock out from it's holster, unload it and then throw it full force across the shop into a brick wall. He would then reload it, go into the indoor range and empty a full magazine into the X zone at 25 ft. I have been carrying a Glock ever since. While It took me many thousands of rounds to feel as proficient on the trigger as I had been with a 1911 (which I probably had even more rounds through), I finally got to the point where the Glock trigger became a non issue. The reliability was always there, (something I could not say for the 1911), with much practice, the accuracy is now there also. This was my personal experience and everyone else's mileage will vary. Bx3 BTW, the most accurate pistol I have ever shot out of the box was my HK .45 Tactical. Unfortunately I sold it last year (no, really) to fund some other projects.

SWRichmond | 01-15-2010 01:44 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 At 15 yards any decent 1911 will put them into a ragged hole. Accurized 1911's will shoot 2" groups at 50 yards. Glock owners didn't know this.

SWRichmond | 01-15-2010 02:20 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx3 (Post 2128456) I detested the Glock and it's trigger for many many years. I preferred to carry the 1911 model. Many 1911's will initially shoot more accurately for their owners as the Glock trigger requires much practice and a different approach to trigger control. Why is it then that I have been carrying a Glock for the past ten years? Simple.......(almost) unquestioned reliability. This is not a flame on 1911's as I know that there are examples that are 100% reliable....well 99% since NOTHING mechanical is EVER 100% reliable, just like Glocks are not 100% reliable. The difference is that the overall likelihood of any given 1911 from any given manufacturer being as consistently reliable as any given Glock is just not supported by reality. Like I said, I ran a 1911 for many years and while they were mostly reliable (with the proper cleaning and ammo that each individual gun preferred) they were at best only 90-95% reliable under all conditions. 90-95% reliability is not acceptable for a self defense firearm and when one has to compromise cleanliness or ammo selection just to get something to run, this is not ideal. A friend of mine who owned a gun store finally convinced me to try out a Glock to see if I could get it to malfunction. In thousands of rounds I could not get one of his stock guns to fail. He also had a sales technique that he would employ for prospective handgun customers. He would take his carry Glock out from it's holster, unload it and then throw it full force across the shop into a brick wall. He would then reload it, go into the indoor range and empty a full magazine into the X zone at 25 ft. I have been carrying a Glock ever since. While It took me many thousands of rounds to feel as proficient on the trigger as I had been with a 1911 (which I probably had even more rounds through), I finally got to the point where the Glock trigger became a non issue. The reliability was always there, (something I could not say for the 1911), with much practice, the accuracy is now there also. This was my personal experience and everyone else's mileage will vary. Bx3 BTW, the most accurate pistol I have ever shot out of the box was my HK .45 Tactical. Unfortunately I sold it last year (no, really) to fund some other projects.
My standard test for my defensive handguns is 200 rounds with varying ammo and multiple magazines with zero failures of any kind. I never have trouble passing this test with any of my 1911's, and I repeat it several times a year with several guns. I don't know what 90-95% reliability you're talking about.

Gordon Gekko | 01-15-2010 02:23 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Kimber makes a damn fine gun. BUT, anybody denouncing Glock's accuracy is completely off their rocker. It's not the gun, it's the shooter. Here's a guy hitting a target 230 yards out with a G27 (subcompact .40). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmMEg4y54Dk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmMEg4y54Dk

Bx3 | 01-15-2010 02:33 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by SWRichmond (Post 2128529) My standard test for my defensive handguns is 200 rounds with varying ammo and multiple magazines with zero failures of any kind. I never have trouble passing this test with any of my 1911's, and I repeat it several times a year with several guns. I don't know what 90-95% reliability you're talking about.
I didn't say that a 1911 won't run at/near 100%, just that statistically the odds favor the Glock. My personal experience was that out of five different 1911's (multiple respected manufacturers) only one was rock solid reliable. All six of my Glocks have been 100% reliable when kept stock. I have multiple peers with the same experience. If you have a reliable 1911, by all means cherish it. Bx3 BTW, my requirement for reliability is dry (non lubed) and dirty. In other words, worst case scenario (real world) conditions.

mayhem | 01-15-2010 02:53 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx3 (Post 2128556) I didn't say that a 1911 won't run at/near 100%, just that statistically the odds favor the Glock. My personal experience was that out of five different 1911's (multiple respected manufacturers) only one was rock solid reliable. All six of my Glocks have been 100% reliable when kept stock. I have multiple peers with the same experience. If you have a reliable 1911, by all means cherish it. Bx3 BTW, my requirement for reliability is dry (non lubed) and dirty. In other words, worst case scenario (real world) conditions.
Research able proof of such a foolish statement? (the one in bold)

Bx3 | 01-15-2010 03:33 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem (Post 2128592) Research able proof of such a foolish statement? (the one in bold)
Fair enough. http://www.chuckhawks.com/care_relia...utopistols.htm This is a pretty good, non biased view on semi auto pistols in general. I am sure that one could find plenty of propaganda on both sides of this discussion, so what would be the point. As I already mentioned, my intent is not to slam the 1911, or claim that the Glock is perfect. The above is based on my experience and that of other personal acquaintances/professionals who actually carry in harms way. Anyone who has had extensive experience with firearms knows that to have a reliable out of the box (non customized) 1911 is a blessing but certainly not the rule. Have people had failures with out of the box Glocks? Sure they have....it is just not as likely to happen. Bx3

tulsamal | 01-15-2010 06:27 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 As unit armorer, I had the duty of running the 1911 range for our Battalion officers. When I got to my unit in 1985, they were still using all 1911's. I saw an awful lot of shots in the dirt in front of the pop up targets. There were a lot of LT's that would have told you that they would do better throwing rocks. (Then I had to show off and rip off a clean score with very little effort. With the loosest 1911 on the range. But I probably shot 100x more ammo with handguns every year than the officers that were having problems.) I'm just saying that the accuracy of your "average 1911" varies a lot. Those Army guns were quite old. They WERE reliable since they were so loose but I doubt any of them were capable of better than 3-4" at 25 yards. And I've seen some super accurate (and tightly fitted) 1911's that would fail to fully cycle for small reasons. I like and own both. Quote:
The Glock is known for it's horrid trigger, but if you know how it works you can be exceptionally accurate
I don't find the Glock trigger to be "horrid" but I've been shooting my G17 since 1989. Any Glock 17 or 21 should be able to shoot into 1.5" at 25 yards. Maybe just a bit better if you try different types of ammo. In any case, 1.5" at 25 yards is plenty accurate enough for anything I will be using them for. Gregg

mayhem | 01-15-2010 07:47 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Well I have been carrying for over 30 years every day till I go to bed. The Glock is way to fat for concealment for my skinny body.. On top of that anyone who carry's a "out of the box" any weapon is a fool in my opinion. I want mine to be tweaked to be sure that there will not be any screwups.. I don't like double action long pull triggers on my guns, period. I know what the thumb safety is for, I don't need a trigger safety. Plus I like the exposed hammer. A bull barreled 1911A will be a tack driver in the hands of a shooter. But to each his own. I just don't buy the hype about Glocks. But as Bernays showed that you can convince anybody to buy anything with the proper advertising. Oh and by the way. My Kimber pictured above runs dry (no oil). Has been for 13k rounds at least. Yeah it has been treated, try to do that with a plastic gun.

Bx3 | 01-15-2010 08:01 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 I agree with you in that to each his own. Like I have said, if you have a reliable 1911, cherish it. I would add that a "stock" gun will be one less issue that you have to defend yourself against in the event that you ever have to engage in a self defense shooting. This is not speculation btw. Because of this reality, I choose to carry the most reliable "stock" gun that I can find and I do not consider myself to be a "fool" in the slightest. In fact I see it as just the opposite. Also, it is obvious that you have a bias against Glocks considering some of your unfounded statements, so there is really no point to continue this particular discussion. In the end, both the 1911 and Glock designs have been battlefield tested and have both excelled in their intended purposes. If you have one or both of either and it fits the bill, more power to you. Bx3

mk3hunter | 01-15-2010 08:31 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Glock 19 in a heartbeat. and yes I love 1911's bro has the G19 (I have the G21....love it!!!) shoots like a dream and I'm going to say it: Kimbers are prince poodles of guns......look great very very very very very tight tolerances Glocks are combat pistols....pure and simple......dont mod them out please!!.....leave them alone......mud is just fine thanks flame on

S_Goldberg | 01-16-2010 11:45 AM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by harper (Post 2127771) the glock issue also has to do with the chamber tolerance... it is 'looser' so that it will reliable feed most ammo, but it affects accuracy. some aftermarket replacement barrels are known to improve it, but lowers the tolerance for slightly out of spec ammo. for a target competition, I would have gone with the kimber too.
Wrong. Glock chambers are made to high tolerances, just like every other firearm. Dimensionally (which is what you meant to say) they are made to spec. There are size specs for chambers and manufacturers follow them.

hoarder | 01-16-2010 12:29 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 I have never liked Glocks nor 1911 for the same reason. I carry several handguns depending of the situation, including a .44 Magnum Mountain Gun and a leeetle J frame .38. I also carry Sigs. There is no real confusion going back and forth between decockers and revolvers, but going back and forth between a Glock and a revolver or a 1911 and a revolver could mean a large hole where you don't intend to put one. The "Glock Safety" is a misnomer, IMO. You squeeze the trigger a little bit and it goes bang, just like a 1911 with the thumb safety off. That said, the 1911 offers a slight safety advantage over the Glock. If you take notice of the firearm every time you hear of an accidental discharge by a cop, it's usually a Glock. The design of a Glock is prone to accidental discharges. Both Glocks and 1911's are excellent, accurate and well designed firearms and with training and practice they as good or better than any other handgun. Just question the wisdom of having more than one handgun if you own a Glock or 1911. A Glock or a 1911 are designed for the one gun man.

Bx3 | 01-16-2010 12:59 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Hoarder, you bring up some good points. I have never seen any particular advantage to the Glock trigger safety myself (Kahrs don't have or seem to need them). The drop safety is as good as any other for AD prevention from a drop/slam. I don't know if I agree that Glocks are more prone to an AD than a revolver except that many DA revolvers have a much heavier trigger which may help prevent the sympathetic finger contraction which could lead to a AD. Proper training is the real solution to this problem. As for a manual safety such as that on the 1911 and many other designs, I agree that they have saved many owners/LE who have been disarmed by their attacker by buying them some extra seconds to react while the perp tried to figure out why the gun wasn't firing. In general, I don't feel any extra danger from not having a manual safety on either my Glocks or wheel guns.:beer: Bx3 Goldberg, Harper may have been referring to the chamber support ( 6 o'clock) of the Glock which is a little less than many other designs due to the way the feed ramp is designed. This is where the "Glock smile" comes into effect and why there have been some isolated incidents of case failures with substandard and hot loaded ammo. This feed ramp design is one of the primary design characteristics that gives the Glock it's legendary reliability. You are correct that the general chamber specs are normal. Bx3

hoarder | 01-16-2010 01:26 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx3 (Post 2130158) Hoarder, you bring up some good points. I have never seen any particular advantage to the Glock trigger safety myself (Kahrs don't have or seem to need them).
My Kahr P9 has about 6 1/2 pounds DAO type long pull, enough to prevent most brain farts and making it comparable enough to revolvers. When I lived down South the concealability of this very thin gun was a big plus, but now that I'm up in the cold mountains I've decided to sell it. Quote:
I don't know if I agree that Glocks are more prone to an AD than a revolver except that many DA revolvers have a much heavier trigger which may help prevent the sympathetic finger contraction which could lead to a AD. Proper training is the real solution to this problem.
The longer heavier DA pull of revolvers and decockers makes a big difference, IMO. If someone is properly trained on Glocks and properly trained on revolvers, I think that in many life and death situations, differentiating between two types of training might not occur. If trained on Glocks and never carrying anything else, there should be no problem. Switching back and forth between differnt types of operating systems might not be a problem for some people, even in situations where their heart is pumping 3 times as fast, but I won't count myself amongst them.

Twisted Avatar | 01-16-2010 02:01 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx3 (Post 2128456) I detested the Glock and it's trigger for many many years. I preferred to carry the 1911 model. Many 1911's will initially shoot more accurately for their owners as the Glock trigger requires much practice and a different approach to trigger control. Why is it then that I have been carrying a Glock for the past ten years? Simple.......(almost) unquestioned reliability. This is not a flame on 1911's as I know that there are examples that are 100% reliable....well 99% since NOTHING mechanical is EVER 100% reliable, just like Glocks are not 100% reliable. The difference is that the overall likelihood of any given 1911 from any given manufacturer being as consistently reliable as any given Glock is just not supported by reality. Like I said, I ran a 1911 for many years and while they were mostly reliable (with the proper cleaning and ammo that each individual gun preferred) they were at best only 90-95% reliable under all conditions. 90-95% reliability is not acceptable for a self defense firearm and when one has to compromise cleanliness or ammo selection just to get something to run, this is not ideal. A friend of mine who owned a gun store finally convinced me to try out a Glock to see if I could get it to malfunction. In thousands of rounds I could not get one of his stock guns to fail. He also had a sales technique that he would employ for prospective handgun customers. He would take his carry Glock out from it's holster, unload it and then throw it full force across the shop into a brick wall. He would then reload it, go into the indoor range and empty a full magazine into the X zone at 25 ft. I have been carrying a Glock ever since. While It took me many thousands of rounds to feel as proficient on the trigger as I had been with a 1911 (which I probably had even more rounds through), I finally got to the point where the Glock trigger became a non issue. The reliability was always there, (something I could not say for the 1911), with much practice, the accuracy is now there also. This was my personal experience and everyone else's mileage will vary. Bx3 BTW, the most accurate pistol I have ever shot out of the box was my HK .45 Tactical. Unfortunately I sold it last year (no, really) to fund some other projects.
I have been sold ever since.............. http://www.theprepared.com/index.php...ask=view&id=90 Any semi out there than can withstand one tenth to abuse I'll buy it. T

Mike_Templar | 01-16-2010 03:28 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 2127301) Why the strange matchup? Well, my work team had a "team building" event tonight and the activity was shooting at the local indoor gun range. I had shot at this range once before and it was my first experience shooting indoors. As expected, it is pretty boring but having the target run back and forth for you is handy. The major downside is the outside air ventilation is just as freezing cold as shooting outdoors if not more so. The last time I shot here I ran a Glock 19, A Sig P239 and a Beretta PX 40. I was actually along to help a friend decide which gun was right for him. I have long held a disdain for Glocks because they are made of plastic and there was that time one went boom in my hand. I also have never particularly cared for Kimber, despite having never fired one, due to their price tag and several reports of reliability issues requiring multiple manufacturer visits to iron out. That night opened my eyes to how outstanding a Glock can actually be. Anyway... Tonight we had a friendly wager amongst the team based on who would score the best. I felt pretty confident I was going to win and I selected the Glock 19 as my sidearm to win this bet. Everyone had a different piece and wildly varying degrees of experience. I was middle of the road in experience but probably the most knowledgeable and the most likely to perform well with an automatic pistol. And I performed fairly well. It was a 15 yard shoot with 9mm being the minimum caliber. 10 practice shots were allowed and then 10 competition rounds were counted. 1 minute time limit. I scored 82 points on a target 10" in diameter with 10 being the highest scoring ring. The guy with the least experience had simply requested "the most accurate gun" at selection time. I had kicked myself then because that was a good idea but I was confident that his inexperience would negate accuracy issues. He was given the Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp. Well, he scored 94 on the same target! We were all pretty amazed at his "skills"... until a few of us ran the same gun. I was able to put every round in the bullseye leaving a nice paper space and a full ring around it. The next best guy was able to put all rounds into the 10 ring hitting the ring itself a few times. I was dumbfounded. I did not know an automatic pistol could approach this degree of accuracy... that is a non-target style pistol. There's my lowly anecdotal report. Glock definitely had the capacity advantage for roughly the same sized gun (15rds vs 7rds). Glock also has the price advantage. The Kimber took the cake in fit, finish, accuracy and action. The action was so smooth it almost felt like an invisible third hand was perfectly racking the slide after each shot. The trigger pull and break were many times cleaner. I couldn't begin to carry either gun without looking like John Wayne so it is all rather just observation for me but I should hope this report generates some interest in what proved to be a remarkable pistol.
To me, if you're going to carry a gun, for God sake get a safety. I know this sounds stupid, and there are 50% of the people reading this right now rolling their eyes about how dumb a safety is. I used to carry a glock and I could never get past a 9mm pointed at my groin area with no safety. I always had visions of me reaching for it in a panic mode and accidentally shooting myself. How embarassing would that be? Everyone says a safety confuses you and puts another step between you and dispatching an enemy. Yes, it sure does. It also puts another step between me and blowing my leg (or worse) off. Most of us are engineers, desk jockeys or else. Get a gun with a safety. The glock is a successful gun. Not trashing it, wouldn't dare. However, they are geared toward being affordable, indestructible and easy trainable for police departments who are continually lowering the bar of their applicants. I would rather understand my gun workings a little more like with a 1911 or HK, etc. with a safety and not shoot myself. This is purely my 2 cents. I present no holy war. Consider the godfather of handguns, if you will, John Browning. He put a safety on the holy of holy's, a 1911. Would you carry a 1911 cocked and not locked? That's what you're doing with a Glock.

Twisted Avatar | 01-16-2010 03:33 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Templar (Post 2130354) To me, if you're going to carry a gun, for God sake get a safety. I know this sounds stupid, and there are 50% of the people reading this right now rolling their eyes about how dumb a safety is. I used to carry a glock and I could never get past a 9mm pointed at my groin area with no safety. I always had visions of me reaching for it in a panic mode and accidentally shooting myself. How embarassing would that be? Everyone says a safety confuses you and puts another step between you and dispatching an enemy. Yes, it sure does. It also puts another step between me and blowing my leg (or worse) off. Most of us are engineers, desk jockeys or else. Get a gun with a safety. The glock is a successful gun. Not trashing it, wouldn't dare. However, they are geared toward being affordable, indestructible and easy trainable for police departments who are continually lowering the bar of their applicants. I would rather understand my gun workings a little more like with a 1911 or HK, etc. with a safety and not shoot myself. This is purely my 2 cents. I present no holy war. Consider the godfather of handguns, if you will, John Browning. He put a safety on the holy of holy's, a 1911. Would you carry a 1911 cocked and not locked? That's what you're doing with a Glock.
Every case of "Glock Leg" has always been due pretty much to the same thing OPERATOR ERROR T

Gordon Gekko | 01-16-2010 03:48 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Templar (Post 2130354) To me, if you're going to carry a gun, for God sake get a safety. I know this sounds stupid, and there are 50% of the people reading this right now rolling their eyes about how dumb a safety is. I used to carry a glock and I could never get past a 9mm pointed at my groin area with no safety. I always had visions of me reaching for it in a panic mode and accidentally shooting myself. How embarassing would that be? Everyone says a safety confuses you and puts another step between you and dispatching an enemy. Yes, it sure does. It also puts another step between me and blowing my leg (or worse) off. Most of us are engineers, desk jockeys or else. Get a gun with a safety. The glock is a successful gun. Not trashing it, wouldn't dare. However, they are geared toward being affordable, indestructible and easy trainable for police departments who are continually lowering the bar of their applicants. I would rather understand my gun workings a little more like with a 1911 or HK, etc. with a safety and not shoot myself. This is purely my 2 cents. I present no holy war. Consider the godfather of handguns, if you will, John Browning. He put a safety on the holy of holy's, a 1911. Would you carry a 1911 cocked and not locked? That's what you're doing with a Glock.
Get yourself a quality holster, belt, and learn some trigger discipline and your willie won't get shot off. I carried a Sig P232 for over a year and had no issues and have recently switched over to a Glock 27 and what do ya know? No issues.

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Gold & Silver Forum - Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19

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- - Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=439927)

Bx3 | 01-16-2010 04:21 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Templar (Post 2130354) To me, if you're going to carry a gun, for God sake get a safety. I used to carry a glock and I could never get past a 9mm pointed at my groin area with no safety. I always had visions of me reaching for it in a panic mode and accidentally shooting myself. How embarassing would that be? Everyone says a safety confuses you and puts another step between you and dispatching an enemy. Yes, it sure does. It also puts another step between me and blowing my leg (or worse) off. Most of us are engineers, desk jockeys or else. Get a gun with a safety. The glock is a successful gun. Not trashing it, wouldn't dare. However, they are geared toward being affordable, indestructible and easy trainable for police departments who are continually lowering the bar of their applicants.
Do you feel the same about DAO revolvers because they don't have external safeties either? As for the heavier trigger pull of the revolver, at 5.5 lbs, the Glock is not exactly set to the hair pin trigger mode either. The only reason that any gun would be pointing at the groin area is if it is being carried "Mexican Style" in the front of the pants without a holster. Anyone advocating/practicing this carry method gets what they deserve. It's kind of like carrying a fixed blade knife in your pocket without the sheath and then blaming the knife for cutting you. Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Templar (Post 2130354) Would you carry a 1911 cocked and not locked? That's what you're doing with a Glock.
Not even close to the same thing. Go look at the actual mechanics of both designs. Your research will answer the question. I have no argument with external safeties and if people feel more comfortable with them, more power to them but that doesn't necessarily negate a gun without one . Bx3

hoarder | 01-16-2010 05:18 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx3 (Post 2130425) The only reason that any gun would be pointing at the groin area is if it is being carried "Mexican Style" in the front of the pants without a holster.
I always thought "Mexican carry" referred to gun tucked in pants behind hip. Yaquis and Aztecs have long torsos and short arms. Unless they have some Spanish blood they have to bend their torsos forward to get change out of their front pockets. For them having a gun at waistband level is equal to a cowboy having a low slung holster, both can reach with their arms only slightly bent. Lots of people use IWB (inside waist band holsters) clipped to the left of their belt buckle for right handed people. This is how I sometimes carry a "J" frame. I have not heard that being referred to as Mexican carry. I would Not carry a 1911, Glock or even a Kahr there. The "J" frame has a double action trigger pull of at least 8 pounds so I don't think there is any danger of converting a testicle into a donut.

Bx3 | 01-16-2010 07:29 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 2130505) I always thought "Mexican carry" referred to gun tucked in pants behind hip.
Nah, Mexican carry is generally just shoving the pistol under your belt/waistline with no holster. It doesn't really have to do with position. There are other names for positions generally based off of the Clock reference. Up front 10-2 o'clock being referred to the appendix position, 7-8 o'clock being small of back (SOB) and then strong/weak side as well as cross draw.......... My point was that any gun that is in a proper holster should not be an issue. Any gun that you stick in your waistband without a holster is asking for a multitude of problems. Bx3

Mike_Templar | 01-16-2010 08:41 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Gekko (Post 2130382) Get yourself a quality holster, belt, and learn some trigger discipline and your willie won't get shot off. I carried a Sig P232 for over a year and had no issues and have recently switched over to a Glock 27 and what do ya know? No issues.
I carried a Glock for 3 years and still have my willie too. I'm saying this: I guarantee he takes zero training. He will likely never experience a time when he has to pull his gun, so....he will be running on adrenaline if it happens. My current carry piece is a Ruger LCP actually, with no safety. However, the guns he mentioned are definitely bigger, and therefore, no need to forego the safety. Trust me, I know, you don't "need" a safety, but giving a recommendation blind over the internet to a guy who has to ask what gun to buy, might need a safety!

Mike_Templar | 01-16-2010 08:46 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx3 (Post 2130425) Do you feel the same about DAO revolvers because they don't have external safeties either? As for the heavier trigger pull of the revolver, at 5.5 lbs, the Glock is not exactly set to the hair pin trigger mode either. The only reason that any gun would be pointing at the groin area is if it is being carried "Mexican Style" in the front of the pants without a holster. Anyone advocating/practicing this carry method gets what they deserve. It's kind of like carrying a fixed blade knife in your pocket without the sheath and then blaming the knife for cutting you. Not even close to the same thing. Go look at the actual mechanics of both designs. Your research will answer the question. I have no argument with external safeties and if people feel more comfortable with them, more power to them but that doesn't necessarily negate a gun without one . Bx3
OK, I probably came off like an idiot regarding guns, and I'm not. I was simply saying for a noob who has to ask what he needs to buy, I just kind of shy away from guns that are 'easily' fired. I suppose, you could say, if you're dumb enough to need a safety, then you don't need a gun. I know a 1911 is different than a glock, I've owned both and still own 1911's, although it's a drawer queen. I'm saying this: My current carry gun is a Ruger LCP and even when I'm sliding it into my pocket holster, I sometimes wonder, damn is something going to catch the trigger? I've never even came close (thank God) to an accidental discharge, but I am just a very responsible gun owner (and person in general). I carry my Ruger every single day with no mishaps, for the record.

Gordon Gekko | 01-17-2010 08:54 AM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Templar (Post 2130745) I carried a Glock for 3 years and still have my willie too. I'm saying this: I guarantee he takes zero training. He will likely never experience a time when he has to pull his gun, so....he will be running on adrenaline if it happens. My current carry piece is a Ruger LCP actually, with no safety. However, the guns he mentioned are definitely bigger, and therefore, no need to forego the safety. Trust me, I know, you don't "need" a safety, but giving a recommendation blind over the internet to a guy who has to ask what gun to buy, might need a safety!
I can defintiely agree with this. :ok:

Bx3 | 01-17-2010 11:19 AM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Templar (Post 2130751) I suppose, you could say, if you're dumb enough to need a safety, then you don't need a gun. I know a 1911 is different than a glock, I've owned both and still own 1911's, although it's a drawer queen. I'm saying this: My current carry gun is a Ruger LCP and even when I'm sliding it into my pocket holster, I sometimes wonder, damn is something going to catch the trigger? I've never even came close (thank God) to an accidental discharge, but I am just a very responsible gun owner (and person in general). I carry my Ruger every single day with no mishaps, for the record.
I don't disparage mechanical safeties or anyone who prefers them. Other than being "drop safe", I subscribe that the two most effective safeties are between our ears (primary) and the other at the distal end of our index fingers (secondary) as I am sure that you do. I also occasionally have worst case scenario thoughts when sliding my G29 or PM9 into their pocket/IWB holsters. I attribute this extra awareness to the primary safety already mentioned. I agree that someone new to firearms and who is not likely going to get the proper gun safety training definitely needs all the help/safeties they can get. That being said, when it came time to get my wife her first pistol, it was a G19. Lets just say that she has been properly educated on gun handling/safety. :coolbeer: Bx3

electric-amish | 01-17-2010 11:29 AM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 2130505) This is how I sometimes carry a "J" frame. I have not heard that being referred to as Mexican carry.
How does this work for sitting or riding in a car? With a bit of a belly I wonder if its even possible to sit like this--Never tried. E-A

electric-amish | 01-17-2010 11:32 AM
1. Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Check this Mexicn carry Trigger Holster out search results YouTube - Trigger Holster for Mexican Carry" target="_blank">YouTube - Trigger Holster for Mexican Carry
   YouTube - Trigger Holster for Mexican Carry" target="_blank">YouTube - Trigger Holster for Mexican Carry
http://goldismoney.info/forums/symre...annotation.png This is a prototype for a holster idea to help protect against accidental discharges when carrying a pistol stuffed into the waistband. This is my blog with... www.youtube.com/watch?v=mww-DQBbtfc&feature=related - 117k - Cached http://sm-a1.yimg.com/image/?url=htt...lcQ9wMCKZA--~B.Play Video E-A:favorites8:

crazychicken | 01-17-2010 11:44 AM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by Glasgow (Post 2127694) Kimbers and Colts are what you show to your friends. Glocks are what you show to your enemies.
That is a darned interesting quote. Although my carry piece(s) are Springfield(s), Colt(s) and Wilson Combat(s)) Not neccesarily in that order. And mine have to go BANG when I need them-and I have needed them more than I would have liked. For what it is worth---Just added a Sig Sauer P556 to my CCW. Not that it would be easy to conceal, but sure will give credibility if the need arises for justification why it is loaded in my vehicle-think an accident or vehicle stolen. CC

hoarder | 01-17-2010 11:51 AM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by electric-amish (Post 2131429) How does this work for sitting or riding in a car? With a bit of a belly I wonder if its even possible to sit like this--Never tried. E-A
IWB holsters just clip on your pants or belt. Get in a car and unclip them. I love them because I seldom wear a belt. Easy.

Mike_Templar | 01-17-2010 04:55 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx3 (Post 2131414) I don't disparage mechanical safeties or anyone who prefers them. Other than being "drop safe", I subscribe that the two most effective safeties are between our ears (primary) and the other at the distal end of our index fingers (secondary) as I am sure that you do. I also occasionally have worst case scenario thoughts when sliding my G29 or PM9 into their pocket/IWB holsters. I attribute this extra awareness to the primary safety already mentioned. I agree that someone new to firearms and who is not likely going to get the proper gun safety training definitely needs all the help/safeties they can get. That being said, when it came time to get my wife her first pistol, it was a G19. Lets just say that she has been properly educated on gun handling/safety. :coolbeer: Bx3
I got my now ex wife a 357 and I kept 38 specials in it for her. I figured, you pull the trigger and it goes bang. If it doesn't, you pull it again. I did not want to try and teach her how to work a magazine and do clearing drills, so I went with simplicity. I suppose she still has it.

Bx3 | 01-17-2010 05:03 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Templar (Post 2131803) I got my now ex wife a 357 and I kept 38 specials in it for her. I figured, you pull the trigger and it goes bang. If it doesn't, you pull it again. I did not want to try and teach her how to work a magazine and do clearing drills, so I went with simplicity. I suppose she still has it.
You made a good decision. I am constantly having to re enforce the fundamentals with my wife. I don't mind doing this at all but I feel that if I were not proactive (if I was not around) that her skills would diminish quickly. I have found that Airsoft and an Advantage arms .22 conversion are both worth their weights in gold as supplemental training aids. We also have several wheel guns around the house that she has become familiar with. Just out of curiosity, how do you like your LCP? I have a good friend that is considering one and I have not ruled it out for my wife or myself either. Thanks in advance. Bx3

Mike_Templar | 01-17-2010 08:16 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx3 (Post 2131817) You made a good decision. I am constantly having to re enforce the fundamentals with my wife. I don't mind doing this at all but I feel that if I were not proactive (if I was not around) that her skills would diminish quickly. I have found that Airsoft and an Advantage arms .22 conversion are both worth their weights in gold as supplemental training aids. We also have several wheel guns around the house that she has become familiar with. Just out of curiosity, how do you like your LCP? I have a good friend that is considering one and I have not ruled it out for my wife or myself either. Thanks in advance. Bx3
Honestly, I like the LCP so much, I now wonder why I have other guns! I carry it everywhere. It literally disappears in a pocket. I have a Bianchi (sp?) pocket holster. You can put it in your front pocket wearing dockers and no one is the wiser. Jeans and it's gone. I wear it in my inside coat pocket, even a sport coat! You would not regret getting one and if you did, you could sell it. The other gun I like in this range is the P232 from SIG. However, the slide comes back pretty close to your meaty party of your hand and can bite if you aren't careful. The LCP seems to have a bit of 'height' for the slide, which probably contributes to muzzle flip, but it is very shootable. The 232 is almost twice as big and the infamous PPK isn't nearly as concealable as the LCP is either. To further confuse matters, look into the LCR!!

SLV>GLD | 01-17-2010 10:16 PM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 I'm not sure who Mike Templar thinks is "blindly" asking over the internet which gun to buy. I simply wrote an anecdotal review of 2 distinctly different guns that heretofore I had a low impression of. I'm no gun expert but I;m no newcomer either. That said, I carry an LCP daily. The concealability is unparalleled. I am scary accurate with pretty much any .380 at hand however the small LCP is probably the least accurate I find myself shooting .380 (roughly 3" groups at 15 yards). I have no doubts I could quickly and efficiently dispatch any single attacker with a LCP regardless of size or motivation. Multiple attackers, OTOH might prove to be a problem. LCP is 6+1 capacity. I carry loaded with 7 with zero fear of AD/ND altho, I too, have some trepidation when pushing into my IWB holster. However, I expect to require at least 4 observed direct hits with .380 to stop a determined attacker. I also expect to muck it up under pressure. That said, I'd not expect to be capable of directly eliminating multiple threats with a LCP. I conduct myself appropriately, LOL. It is for skinny dude carry purposes only. My trusty 870 and 13+1 BDA sit next to the bed. Although, the LCP remains on my hip even when hanging out in my own home.

Glasgow | 01-18-2010 06:08 AM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 That is a darned interesting quote. Although my carry piece(s) are Springfield(s), Colt(s) and Wilson Combat(s)) Not neccesarily in that order. And mine have to go BANG when I need them-and I have needed them more than I would have liked. For what it is worth---Just added a Sig Sauer P556 to my CCW. Not that it would be easy to conceal, but sure will give credibility if the need arises for justification why it is loaded in my vehicle-think an accident or vehicle stolen. I don't train the way I should, thats why I like my carry guns to be the G19, HK P-7 and LCP. The gun I shoot best is the Kimber Pro Carry, but it is not automatic to nick the safety off (short fat fingers). The Sig 556 is on my wish list, have a range report?

crazychicken | 01-18-2010 09:38 AM
Re: Kimber Pro Carry II 45acp vs. Glock 19 Quote:
Originally Posted by Glasgow (Post 2132660) That is a darned interesting quote. Although my carry piece(s) are Springfield(s), Colt(s) and Wilson Combat(s)) Not neccesarily in that order. And mine have to go BANG when I need them-and I have needed them more than I would have liked. For what it is worth---Just added a Sig Sauer P556 to my CCW. Not that it would be easy to conceal, but sure will give credibility if the need arises for justification why it is loaded in my vehicle-think an accident or vehicle stolen. I don't train the way I should, thats why I like my carry guns to be the G19, HK P-7 and LCP. The gun I shoot best is the Kimber Pro Carry, but it is not automatic to nick the safety off (short fat fingers). The Sig 556 is on my wish list, have a range report?
After stringing one twenty round mag my wife qualified with a 57 out of 60 in the 7-8-9 rings at 30 feet. She shoots but is not a heavy shooter. No magazine in/out problems, VERY EASY bolt release. Trigger pull fine as far as I'm concerned. The pistol grip has the best angle for finger point aim I have ever used---without question. I shot my qualifier strings finger-point only and was not the least bit unhappy. Two mags fired with my trigger finger, one mag fired with my middle finger. No change in the accuracy except for one flyer that landed in the middle of the top ring and an inch off center. Otherwise all in the 7/8. The P556 is one hell of a piece for out of the box. CC

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