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TomD | 05-01-2009 08:08 AM
Interesting take on OO buck for home defense This is a paragraph taken from Gun Tests Magazine comparison test for pump shotguns: Number 1 Buckshot is 30 caliber; it is the superior choice as defined by the International Wound Ballistics Association: "Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2�-inch 12-gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma. In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. Also, #1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker’s body." (For further reading, consult Dr. Martin Fackler and Duncan MacPherson’s works on bullet penetration and wounding ballistics.)

RiverRat | 05-01-2009 08:46 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense :yes: Correct...I've been trying to tell people that for years...no takers. In a combat situation at close quarters...those extra pellets can mean the difference between a guaranteed kill or a complete miss. Spread the word...

foolsgold | 05-01-2009 09:02 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Problem solved Magnum 00 buck 15 pellets http://goldismoney.info/forums/pictu...&pictureid=581

Ares | 05-01-2009 09:18 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense I can't find 00 Buck, or even #1 buck at Wally World or Meijer, which usually have pretty good supplies of either. Shot I could buy all day long, 23 dollars for 100 rounds every where I go.

CrufflerJJ | 05-01-2009 09:31 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense TomD - Thank you for that info. I'd never really thought much about the number of pellets in a 1/00/000 load. Makes sense!

SLV>GLD | 05-01-2009 10:05 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by foolsgold (Post 1703196) Problem solved Magnum 00 buck 15 pellets
Good point although I'd counter that you reduce ammo capacity by loading 3" shells. Seems, gaining the same area using #1 Buck and gaining more rounds with 2.75" shells may be the better route.

<SLV> | 05-01-2009 10:14 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 1703279) Good point although I'd counter that you reduce ammo capacity by loading 3" shells. Seems, gaining the same area using #1 Buck and gaining more rounds with 2.75" shells may be the better route.
Not to mention #1 buck in 2.75 should recoil less, and therefore provide fast follow-up shots with greater accuracy.

horseshoe3 | 05-01-2009 10:36 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 1703279) Good point although I'd counter that you reduce ammo capacity by loading 3" shells. Seems, gaining the same area using #1 Buck and gaining more rounds with 2.75" shells may be the better route.
Not necessarily. My 3" 870 holds 5 rounds of 3" or 2-3/4" in it's standard mag tube. Now if you had an extended mag you might squeeze in an extra. Like maybe 8 instead of 7.

Iptuous | 05-01-2009 10:39 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 1703279) Good point although I'd counter that you reduce ammo capacity by loading 3" shells. Seems, gaining the same area using #1 Buck and gaining more rounds with 2.75" shells may be the better route.
I can fit 10 rounds in my magazine regardless of the shell size.... :ok:

Tumbleweed | 05-01-2009 10:52 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Oh Crapp!!!...I just bought a Saiga 12ga and a thousand rounds of 2 3/4" double 00 buck with nine pelletts. What should I do now? If the door gets kicked in the middle of the night should I grab the Saiga or my AK?

SLV>GLD | 05-01-2009 10:57 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by horseshoe3 (Post 1703320) Not necessarily. My 3" 870 holds 5 rounds of 3" or 2-3/4" in it's standard mag tube. Now if you had an extended mag you might squeeze in an extra. Like maybe 8 instead of 7.
My 870 with extended tube and chambered round will hold (7) 2.75" shells but only (6) 3" shells. With 3" shells loaded the spring is compressed flat which is allegedly not good for it; especially for keeping loaded 24/7. The other issue is the dramatically increased recoil found with 3" shells. Another factor for consideration is a 2.75" shell hand loads into the receiver easier than a 3" sheel which can be pretty important under stress. My opinion is that I am not trying to kill a buck from 40 yards but intruders from 5 yards and capacity, reliability and follow-up shots will all be compromised by the use of 3" shells. Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one and all of them stink, right?

SLV>GLD | 05-01-2009 11:01 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumbleweed (Post 1703352) Oh Crapp!!!...I just bought a Saiga 12ga and a thousand rounds of 2 3/4" double 00 buck with nine pelletts. What should I do now? If the door gets kicked in the middle of the night should I grab the Saiga or my AK?
People have been reliably getting killed by 2.75" 00 Buck for eons. I'd personally rather send nine pellets in spread through the dark than a single, high penetration 7.62X39. Ideally, you'd grab the shotgun and toss the AK to your bed mate. Just stay out of each other's way. :)

CrufflerJJ | 05-01-2009 12:47 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumbleweed (Post 1703352) If the door gets kicked in the middle of the night should I grab the Saiga or my AK?
Yes, you should.:bear_rolleyes:

morganchaser | 05-01-2009 01:51 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense I think Tumbleweed was joking. "00 Buck isn't the best? Better use 7.62x39!" Kinda like dumping your 9mm for .22lr because you heard 10mm was better. What I also want to know is the ideal round for a direct hit? Are X #1 better than X-Y 00Buck? I mean: isn't fragmentation preferable to a single wound channel?

TLM | 05-01-2009 02:06 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Birdshot at 7 yards has around 6" penetration in ballistic gell, based on that, anything you have in your shotgun at the time is going to be devastating. :s10:

EE_ | 05-01-2009 02:14 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Thanks TomD, I always love your photos! Another Article: Some Thoughts on the Combat Shotgun http://www.frfrogspad.com/shotgun.htm

horseshoe3 | 05-01-2009 02:16 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by TLM (Post 1703669) Birdshot at 7 yards has around 6" penetration in ballistic gell, based on that, anything you have in your shotgun at the time is going to be devastating. :s10:
+1 At home defense ranges, any shotgun shell will do a better job than MOST rifle or handgun cartridges.

scottymonger | 05-01-2009 02:46 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 1703370) People have been reliably getting killed by 2.75" 00 Buck for eons. I'd personally rather send nine pellets in spread through the dark than a single, high penetration 7.62X39. Ideally, you'd grab the shotgun and toss the AK to your bed mate. Just stay out of each other's way. :)
I agree, the 9 pellet round will easily do the job. I bought some 12 pellet 00 buck last week and will take some to the range tommorrow and do a comparison with my usual 9 pellet shells. http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...gauge-buckshot

Ag_man | 05-01-2009 04:47 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense The places I frequent for ammo, never have anything except 00 buck. I have read arguments for #1 and even #4 buck for defense, they make sense for indoor situations, I suppose. Has anyone done the math for total kinetic energy delivered from various sizes of buckshot loads (K.E. per pellet x # of pellets per shell)?

SLV>GLD | 05-01-2009 04:52 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense I've not seen #1 buck either. #4 can be found but it will not be falling off the shelves everywhere you go like 00 is.

CQC McDuck | 05-01-2009 05:36 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumbleweed (Post 1703352) Oh Crapp!!!...I just bought a Saiga 12ga and a thousand rounds of 2 3/4" double 00 buck with nine pelletts. What should I do now? If the door gets kicked in the middle of the night should I grab the Saiga or my AK?
You Tube
You Tube
The Saiga 12, obviously.

tulsamal | 05-01-2009 05:43 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense I read an article years ago when the author looked at the different pellet sizes and number of pellets per round. His conclusion was that 0 Buck "fit better" in the 12 gauge tube. It seemed like a logical argument to me so I picked up some 0 Buck on my local store. But you hardly ever see 0 Buck for sale. Even online. They will have 20 different varieties of 00 Buck and maybe one of 0 Buck. Then it became common to load more pellets into 00 Buck. AIM was selling some for a while that had 12 pellets. So I just bought a bunch of that and called it good. Works great out of my FN SLP. Gregg

Lars Ragnarsson | 05-01-2009 06:38 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat (Post 1703181) :yes: Correct...I've been trying to tell people that for years...no takers. In a combat situation at close quarters...those extra pellets can mean the difference between a guaranteed kill or a complete miss. Spread the word...
You probably reached more people than you realize. Since 00 is more plentiful, I've got a lot of it. And that's what I load when I'm out and about on the property. But whenever I find #1 and #4, I grab it. First 3 rounds for the indoor gun is one of those, followed by 00. I also don't screw with 3" shells. I want that one extra "Bang!" you get from a tube of 2 3/4"....

diversified2 | 05-01-2009 09:18 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by EE_ (Post 1703683) Thanks TomD, I always love your photos! Another Article: Some Thoughts on the Combat Shotgun http://www.frfrogspad.com/shotgun.htm
Great Info!!!!!!!!!!!!!

eat_beef | 05-01-2009 10:03 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense In the real world, if you get all 9 pellets of 00 in a bad guy, nothing else really matters. At in the house distances, you're probably going to do that anyway. The real problem with 00 is at 20+ yards, where it's 9 pellets will leave holes in the pattern big enough for a man to fit through. Not good. #1 or #4 buck won't, or if they do, it's a lot less often. Complete misses at 35 plus yards with 00 are VERY frequent, while misses with #1 and #4 are VERY seldom. Of course, it's quite a pain to find #1 and #4.:favorites21:

Tumbleweed | 05-01-2009 10:59 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by CQC McDuck (Post 1704038) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gESLOmz-4sc The Saiga 12, obviously.
Thanks CQC McDuck for the video! That's about what I figured. Anyone left after the saiga is empty would probably be in range and about right for an Ak 47. Even if they are behind a car or car door. I've got some 3/16 inch thick steel plate that the AK will sure punch nice holes through and I like that!

TIED_UP_GOAT | 05-01-2009 11:42 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumbleweed (Post 1704480) Thanks CQC McDuck for the video! That's about what I figured. Anyone left after the saiga is empty would probably be in range and about right for an Ak 47. Even if they are behind a car or car door. I've got some 3/16 inch thick steel plate that the AK will sure punch nice holes through and I like that!
If they survive the AK47, time to call in a JDAM!!!

tulsamal | 05-02-2009 12:40 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
The real problem with 00 is at 20+ yards, where it's 9 pellets will leave holes in the pattern big enough for a man to fit through. Not good. #1 or #4 buck won't, or if they do, it's a lot less often. Complete misses at 35 plus yards with 00 are VERY frequent, while misses with #1 and #5 are VERY seldom.
I'm not going to disagree with that from a hit probability point of view. But my problem with #4 Buckshot is that it gives up too much in penetration. A lot of police departments used to issue it and they had problems. You hit a bad guy in normal clothes at 25 yards with a few #4 buck pellets and you aren't going to get penetration through clothes, meat, and ribs. You just won't. That's why the whole thing is a trade off. Go really big and know you will get plenty of penetration. But then you only get a few pellets and you don't get any hits. Or go with much smaller pellets, get hits, but none of them penetrate deeply enough to be decisive! I'm not saying I have the answer. Just that I've gone back and forth on this with myself a few times before! Gregg

J.D.Rockinfeller | 05-02-2009 07:54 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense at close range #1 is my shot of choice....its like having 1/2 an ak47 magazine in 1 squeeze of the trigger...even in grizz country where i live and hike...its my personal choice....and at night???...around camp when things go "bump in the night"... PRICELESS :biggrin:

farscott | 05-02-2009 08:00 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
... those extra pellets can mean the difference between a guaranteed kill or a complete miss.
This comes down to range. In my home at night, I do not need the extra range that #1 Buck provides. Unless you have a large home or plan on taking the fight outside your home, I cannot see a need to load #1 Buck instead of any other commonly available defense load. In my improved cylinder (standard choke for) 870Ps at typical engagement distances (say 21 feet), the extreme spread of the shot cloud is under six inches on the pattern board for just about any shot shell. A miss is going to be a miss, and a hit is likely to be fatal, later if not immediately. The 870 in my house is loaded with #2 Buck, but I would not hesitate to load it with #00, #1, #2, or #4 Buck loads. At ranges above 20 yards, I can see the need for #1 Buck, but I think there is a better answer. My choice is a slug as I am concerned about collateral damage from extra pellets and want the extra penetration a slug provides. That is why the 870 in my car is loaded with slugs as I am more likely to need a slug if I grab the weapon from my vehicle.

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teedub31 | 05-02-2009 11:07 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Forget the buckshot or birdshot. You want devestation? Go get some Winchester Extended Range Turkey loads in a #5 and shoot then through a turkey choke. You will put about 300 heavier-then-pellets in a basket ball sized pattern at about 25 yards. Inside 15 yards will do nothing less then tear a softball sized hole through the chest cavity of an attacker. They are vicious. On the down side, a box of 10 shells is gonna cost you about $40+tax.

J.D.Rockinfeller | 05-02-2009 11:11 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by teedub31 (Post 1704835) Forget the buckshot or birdshot. You want devestation? Go get some Winchester Extended Range Turkey loads in a #5 and shoot then through a turkey choke. You will put about 300 heavier-then-pellets in a basket ball sized pattern at about 25 yards. Inside 15 yards will do nothing less then tear a softball sized hole through the chest cavity of an attacker. They are vicious. On the down side, a box of 10 shells is gonna cost you about $40+tax.
Not in grizz country....id...id...feel like a turkey.:biggrin:

Usury | 05-02-2009 03:28 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by tulsamal (Post 1704566) I'm not going to disagree with that from a hit probability point of view. But my problem with #4 Buckshot is that it gives up too much in penetration. A lot of police departments used to issue it and they had problems. You hit a bad guy in normal clothes at 25 yards with a few #4 buck pellets and you aren't going to get penetration through clothes, meat, and ribs. You just won't. That's why the whole thing is a trade off. Go really big and know you will get plenty of penetration. But then you only get a few pellets and you don't get any hits. Or go with much smaller pellets, get hits, but none of them penetrate deeply enough to be decisive! I'm not saying I have the answer. Just that I've gone back and forth on this with myself a few times before! Gregg
Why not have both: http://www.jgsales.com/product_info....oducts_id/1638 http://www.jgsales.com/product_thumb...jpg&w=100&h=96

SLV>GLD | 05-02-2009 04:57 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by Usury (Post 1705051) Why not have both: http://www.jgsales.com/product_info....oducts_id/1638 http://www.jgsales.com/product_thumb...jpg&w=100&h=96
Hearsay says those deals are not very stable in flight. I have no personal experience to relate.

Usury | 05-02-2009 05:40 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense According to the reviews on that page, they keep a pretty tight group out to 25-30 yards...

CQC McDuck | 05-02-2009 07:06 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumbleweed (Post 1704480) Thanks CQC McDuck for the video! That's about what I figured. Anyone left after the saiga is empty would probably be in range and about right for an Ak 47. Even if they are behind a car or car door. I've got some 3/16 inch thick steel plate that the AK will sure punch nice holes through and I like that!
Depending on your accuracy and Saiga's magazine capacity, there won't be anyone left after the Saiga is empty. :ok:

Agamemnon | 05-04-2009 07:03 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by teedub31 (Post 1704835) Forget the buckshot or birdshot. You want devestation? Go get some Winchester Extended Range Turkey loads in a #5 and shoot then through a turkey choke. You will put about 300 heavier-then-pellets in a basket ball sized pattern at about 25 yards. Inside 15 yards will do nothing less then tear a softball sized hole through the chest cavity of an attacker. They are vicious. On the down side, a box of 10 shells is gonna cost you about $40+tax.
Try cheap #4 shot, total devastation at Home Defense ranges. Speaking of "range", it seems this thread forgets we are talking about shotguns here.

eat_beef | 05-04-2009 08:10 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense So I guess you have tried cheap #4 shot? If you have (as I have), you know (as I do) that birdshot is useless once it leaves the shot cup, which happens at somewhere between 15 and 20 feet. After that, it won't penetrate more than 2 inches. BTW, shotguns, with the proper ammo, can be used for devastating effect out to 60 yards. Ever hear of Rhodesia?

TLM | 05-04-2009 09:15 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense I found this on thefiringline.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- I worked as a Paramedic in central Georgia for 13 years. I saw many gunshot wounds. Besides the cases I worked, I went over to the ER to check out any GSW that came in, as our barracks was in the parking lot out behind the ER, and I was particularly interested in gunshot wounds. I was fascinated by the lethality of birdshot wounds to the torso. In the course of my career I saw 14 close range birdshot wounds to the torso and every one of them died. Most of these injuries occurred inside a house, so you are talking 10 feet to maybe 25 feet max. We did have one sad case, a teenage boy was crossing a barbed wire fence. He had a .410 with number 6 shot. The gun went off and hit his brother in the back of the neck, ten feet away. The kid was dead when the ambulance arrived. Most of the shotgun torso wounds I saw were like that, we would get there ten minutes after the shooting and the guy would be graveyard dead. I saw hundreds of gunshot wounds and close range birdshot was the most lethal gunshot injury I saw. If any of y'all doubt the effectiveness of birdshot, it is easy to do a penetration test. I had heard that birdshot would not penetrate a leather coat. I doubted this so I made a test. I got a pair of old workboots, the sole was worn out but the ankle leather was still good, easily as thick as the leather of a coat. I got a 20 gauge shotgun loaded with number 8 shot. At fifteen feet I shot the boot. The shot went right through the leather, and went right out the other side. The pattern was familiar, about 1 1/2 inches wide, a rough jagged hole. Then I put a pine 1x4 into the other boot. I figured that 3/4 inch of pine was a pretty good simulation of human bone. I fired again. The shot went through the leather and blew right through the board. This time, only a few shot exited the other side of the boot. I had the feeling that if someone had been wearing this boot they would have had their foot blown off, it would have given the orthopedic surgeon a very long night to try to save it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Like I said before, anything you have in your shotgun at home defense ranges is going to be "devastating"!

horseshoe3 | 05-04-2009 09:23 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 1704393) In the real world, if you get all 9 pellets of 00 in a bad guy, nothing else really matters. At in the house distances, you're probably going to do that anyway. The real problem with 00 is at 20+ yards, where it's 9 pellets will leave holes in the pattern big enough for a man to fit through. Not good. #1 or #4 buck won't, or if they do, it's a lot less often. Complete misses at 35 plus yards with 00 are VERY frequent, while misses with #1 and #4 are VERY seldom. Of course, it's quite a pain to find #1 and #4.:favorites21:
I have limited experience with buckshot, but the one load I keep on hand I patterned at 25 yards. It gave about a 6-8" total spread. I was amazed at how tight it patterned at that distance. I don't know if that is at all common, but it was a much tighter pattern than birdshot out of the same gun at the same range.

tulsamal | 05-04-2009 06:44 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
We did have one sad case, a teenage boy was crossing a barbed wire fence. He had a .410 with number 6 shot. The gun went off and hit his brother in the back of the neck, ten feet away.
Location, location, location! I only have one personal experience in this area. When I was in 4th or 5th grade, a couple of boys were fooling around in one of their houses while the parents were at work. One kid found a single shot .410 and they were playing with it. One shot the other directly in the face from across the room. I don't know what shot or anything like that but it seems likely it was some basic birdshot being kept around for vermin control. The shot kid ended up with a ravaged face. Like really, really bad acne. (I'm talking about a year later!) Had to have plastic surgery several times. He was a scary looking mess afterwords but he didn't' die. He didn't even lose an eye through sheer luck. None of those little pellets managed to make it to the brain. Oh, I do have another contribution now that I think of it! I raise domestic turkeys most years. They can get well over 30 pounds. They are stupid as all get out. They are FAR too big to kill with a killing cone like I do for chickens. So I started using the SA M6 Scout and its .410 barrel to kill them. Get right next to them, single shot to the head and neck, 3" number six birdshot. Most of the time it worked just fine. But I did have some gory failures. Lots of blood and squawking but they didn't die. I didn't like that. Now I use a 12 gauge. Haven't had a failure with that one yet! Gregg

eat_beef | 05-04-2009 10:03 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by horseshoe3 (Post 1707033) I have limited experience with buckshot, but the one load I keep on hand I patterned at 25 yards. It gave about a 6-8" total spread. I was amazed at how tight it patterned at that distance. I don't know if that is at all common, but it was a much tighter pattern than birdshot out of the same gun at the same range.
What was the bbl length and choke? I'm getting 6-8" at more like 10ish yards, from an 18" bbl and cylinder. I haven't had a chance to play with my latest creation, which has a 20" IC. Of course every bbl/choke/round is going to pattern different, but it's odd that our results are so disparate.

Fatboy | 05-05-2009 08:43 AM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense It's all about size and penetration! Ballistic testing and spirited debate presented in the link, beware 56K users. http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958 From the link: "#4 buckshot is what we here at Tactical Works (link removed because it was bad) consider the minimum all purpose buckshot load for tactical applications. It balances decent penetration with a higher projectile count; increasing your first round hit probability over both #1 buck and 00 buck at medium shotgun range. If all pellets strike the intended target (likely when utilized at closer range) #4 buckshot offers several times the effective wound channel creation capabilities over both #1 and 00 buck." Regarding #1 Buckshot: "A 2� inch load firing 16 .30 cal pellets, this offering from Remington fired from an 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnum exhibited excellent average penetration of approximately 16.5 inches. Temporary stretch cavity measured approximately 8.5 inches. Shot recovered exhibited minimal deformation. In our opinion, this load is superior to 00 buck for selection as a tactical shotgun load. While exhibiting slightly less penetration, overall penetration is still acceptable and if all pellets strike their intended target there is potential to create approximately 77% more wound tract with the additional 7 pellets." Shotgun meets the Box Of Truth: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm Box of Truth, Shotgun Basics: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu83.htm Form your own conclusions!

SLV>GLD | 05-05-2009 10:15 PM
Re: Interesting take on OO buck for home defense Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatboy (Post 1708457) It's all about size and penetration!
Mind, meet gutter; gutter, mind. Happy Cinco!

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