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madfranks | 03-04-2009 06:28 PM
Good stats on stopping power http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppi....asp?Caliber=0 Information on stopping power including diameter, penetration, and "one stop shots" from data taken from actual shootings. You can choose your caliber and bullet weight. I find it interesting the dramatic rise in stopping power between a .45 FMJ and HS (Federal) using the same caliber and weight.

SilverCity | 03-04-2009 07:30 PM
Re: Good stats on stopping power That's similar to the chart I was looking for yesterday. Marshall and Sanow's data based on ACTUAL STREET SHOOTINGS holds more weight in my book than any of the theorists like Fackler, et al. even though M&S data is a little flawed and at least partially anecdotal from eyewitness accounts. But what other studies are based on bullet performance in felons...as opposed to ballistic gelatin, wet newspaper, water jugs, etc.?

elroy | 03-04-2009 08:10 PM
Re: Good stats on stopping power Last night I was watching a Cops show on TV. One segment featured a trooper who shot a perp at point blank range with a .45 after the perp tried to slash the cop with a knife. The perp had a cardboard box full of cocaine in his pickup truck. The perp continued to fight the cop and continued trying to cut him after being shot. The cop remarked he couldn't believe the guy was still on his feet and able to fight. I guess the cop was not familiar with the rules of gunfighting. Anybody worth shooting is worth shooting twice.

vector03 | 03-04-2009 09:27 PM
Re: Good stats on stopping power At point blank the bullet probably went through and through

SilverCity | 03-04-2009 09:35 PM
Re: Good stats on stopping power My CCW instructor (former Deputy Sheriff) says he once shot a Navajo indian, on meds, who charged at him with a hatchet. He fired his issue .357 magnum while his back-up (FBI agent) fired his issue 38. The indian took 6 full house hollowpoint magnum loads to the center of his chest, plus a few 38s...and still had to be wrestled to ground and the hatchet forceably taken from him. He later died on the way to the hospital. Anyone still feel okay loaded with them FMJs? EDIT: If the .357 magnums failed to stop him immediately, how much LESS EFFECTIVE would any FMJ be?

vector03 | 03-04-2009 09:43 PM
Re: Good stats on stopping power ^^^ That's insane! I worked at a department store where our security office got into a fight with a shoplifter. He tackled the guy to the ground and punched him in the groin repeatedly with his handcuffs wrapped around his fist and the guy still put up a good fight. Later they found out the guy he high no PCP.

platinumdude | 03-05-2009 12:58 AM
Re: Good stats on stopping power Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 1607595) My CCW instructor (former Deputy Sheriff) says he once shot a Navajo indian, on meds, who charged at him with a hatchet. He fired his issue .357 magnum while his back-up (FBI agent) fired his issue 38. The indian took 6 full house hollowpoint magnum loads to the center of his chest, plus a few 38s...and still had to be wrestled to ground and the hatchet forceably taken from him. He later died on the way to the hospital. Anyone still feel okay loaded with them FMJs?
I wonder how my soft point .308 will do?

Contento | 03-05-2009 01:14 AM
Re: Good stats on stopping power So basically the 1000 rounds of Speer Lawman 147 gr 9mm FMJ I bought are pretty lame...great news! On the plus side I got a smoking deal on it.

skyvike | 03-05-2009 02:42 AM
Re: Good stats on stopping power Quote:
Originally Posted by Contento (Post 1607937) So basically the 1000 rounds of Speer Lawman 147 gr 9mm FMJ I bought are pretty lame...great news! On the plus side I got a smoking deal on it.
I can't see the chart at the moment because the server at work won't let me so I can't discuss that. What I did want to offer is that these anectdotal "we shot the guy six times with Supermax Warp Factor 7 Hollowpoints and he still didn't fall down" stories don't really prove anything except that the human creature has the capacity to hang in there with some pretty severe injuries. They don't COMPARE the results obtained with these bullets to fmj ball. Everyone assumes the affects will be spectacularly better with the hollowpoints, etc. but I haven't seen any data regarding actual shootings in a gunfight that backs up this assertion. If the guy is on meds, he'd probably keep fighting for a few minutes if you shot his legs off at the hips and got him twice in the chest. Besides, if he wasn't on meds, he'd be nearly as likely to lay on the ground screaming for his mommy if you shot him in the elbow with a .22 short. You cannot predict the mental/chemical state of your adversary. I'll even go along with the idea that hollow points are better. What I'd like to know is HOW MUCH better? Is it worth reducing my stash of handgun ammunition by one-third 'cuz I have to pay three times more for the fancy stuff? Is it worth the risk of a stoppage, however rare it might be, to have that extra SUPPOSED "stopping power?" I know many are convinced it is and I don't mean to argue about your choice. I'm just sharing my thoughts FWIW. Until I can see some credible data of QUANTIFIABLE advantages, I really can't make an informed decision. Acquiring that data may not be possible. Until it is, I'm going to stick with my best effort to see my weapon cycles and fires EVERY TIME I pull the trigger as my primary evaluation criteria. JMHO

buff01 | 03-05-2009 03:09 AM
Re: Good stats on stopping power From a scientific standpoint, there are only three things that matter with respect to "stopping power" or energy transferred to the target: (1) bullet mass at time of entry. (2) bullet velocity at time of entry. (3) will it stick in the target or go through. kinetic energy (KE) = 1/2 * mass * velocity^2 If the bullet sticks in the target (does not penetrate), then 100% of the KE will be absorbed. As you can see velocity is far more important than mass as long as the bullet stops in the target. If the bullet goes through the target, then the equation becomes: KE(imparted) = KE(entry) - KE(exit) Any other stats are not relevant to "stopping power". Of course the bullet's individual characteristics will affect how much tissue damage is done as it tears through the flesh and organs. The reason why "knockdown power" is a myth is because if the bullet actually had enough energy to knock the target down, firing it off would knock the shooter down. Of course if the target is off balance/not expecting the impulse, then they will probably fall down. I will also mention that energy imparted is probably almost never as important as the trauma done by the bullet on its way in/through the target.

AceNZ | 03-05-2009 05:06 AM
Re: Good stats on stopping power It continues to surprise me how most gun hobbyists refuse to accept many of the realities of a live gunfight, such as: -- Your assailant can easily keep moving for at least 30 seconds after being fatally shot (even with a so-called "one shot stop"). People usually don't fall down and stop like in the movies. -- It doesn't actually hurt that much to get shot with certain bullets, at least not at first (unless the bullet hits a bone or some other tender area). I had friend who got shot in the leg and didn't even know it for many minutes afterwards. -- Aiming at a moving target when under life-or-death pressure isn't something you can learn at the range. Most weekend hobbyists will have terrible aim in a gunfight, at be lucky if they hit anything at all. -- Most gunfights are over fast. You'll be lucky to get off 2 or 3 rounds, much less a whole clip. Those are a few of the reasons why I would only carry a 45 or a 357, and never a 9mm. The chart from the OP says 91% one-shot stop for 9mm vs. 96% for 45. If I'm probably only going to get one hit to start with, why not make it count? And here's a big one you won't hear from anyone except those who have been through it: what's one of the most important pieces of backup gear you can bring to a gunfight? A knife. That's the most effective weapon during the 30 seconds between when your assailant has been shot and when he falls.

honu5050 | 03-05-2009 05:56 AM
Re: Good stats on stopping power chest hip or right to the head. providing it go's your way. gel watermellons math....horsepuckie ! when (if) ya ever have the misfortune to get into one of these social dilemmas it will in all likelehood be very close and personal. then hope you have a shotgun and not a handgun at that time. :yes:

eat_beef | 03-05-2009 08:33 AM
Re: Good stats on stopping power Quote:
Originally Posted by buff01 (Post 1608016) I will also mention that energy imparted is probably almost never as important as the trauma done by the bullet on its way in/through the target.
Which disproves/negates the rest of your post.:wavey:

S_Goldberg | 03-05-2009 09:27 AM
Re: Good stats on stopping power The one shot stop is a myth. http://www.liquibyte.com/image/officer.pdf

CrufflerJJ | 03-05-2009 10:14 AM
Re: Good stats on stopping power Quote:
Originally Posted by S_Goldberg (Post 1608344) The one shot stop is a myth.
YES! There are stories about folks who've taken 12 ga slugs (or OO buck) to the chest & kept on going. There is no magic bullet, so the arguments about whether a +P+ 1273 grain RemWinChestSupraZowie is better than the standard pressure 1217 grain load are mainly mental masturbation. Gun rags are great about pushing the latest & greatest new caliber or loading. Yes, I'd "trust" a .45 Gold Dot over a .25 ACP FMJ in a serious social encounter, but it's more important to carry a load in your selected weapon that functions reliably, allows you to control the weapon during the recoil of multiple shots (ammo is cheap - BE GENEROUS), & gives acceptable accuracy.

SilverCity | 03-05-2009 10:57 AM
Re: Good stats on stopping power QUOTE: "Exactly. One round of cheapo Wal-Mart Whitebox FMJ in the heart is better then ten rounds of Donald Trump Black Label Platinum Magnum Superduper Geewiz Howitzer Fullest Jacketed Hollowpoint +P in the wallpaper." QUOTE: "Until I can see some credible data of QUANTIFIABLE advantages, I really can't make an informed decision. Acquiring that data may not be possible. Until it is, I'm going to stick with my best effort to see my weapon cycles and fires EVERY TIME I pull the trigger as my primary evaluation criteria." According to Marshall and Sanow's chart (9mm): Worst: Winchester FMJ, 24 shootings, 14 one-shot stops (58%), expansion:0.35", penetration: 17.2", 4" barrel or less Best: Winchester Black Talon (Ranger), 86 shootings, 77 one-shot stops (90%), expansion: 0.68", penetration: 14.2" So, from 90% chance of stopping an attacker with JHP down to 58% using FMJ...not the odds I want in a gunfight. And you may only be able to get off one shot... If you load FMJs because you are worried about functional reliability, you are not carrying the best handgun for self-defense purposes. Good luck. You will need it.

Contento | 03-05-2009 12:45 PM
Re: Good stats on stopping power I've got a noob Ammo question one of you might know the answer to- Why do Hollow point bullets generally have a higher FPS rating than FMJ's? It would seem the FMJ bullet is way more aerodynamic, thus would travel faster through the air. For instance my 147gr FMJ 9mm has a 1090 FPS rating, while Winchester Super-x 115gr has a 1220 FPS rating- what gives?

SilverCity | 03-05-2009 12:53 PM
Re: Good stats on stopping power Quote:
Originally Posted by Contento (Post 1608880) I've got a noob Ammo question one of you might know the answer to- Why do Hollow point bullets generally have a higher FPS rating than FMJ's? It would seem the FMJ bullet is way more aerodynamic, thus would travel faster through the air. For instance my 147gr FMJ 9mm has a 1090 FPS rating, while Winchester Super-x 115gr has a 1220 FPS rating- what gives?
Within a given pressure loading, heavier bullets are usually slower than lighter bullets. Your typical FMJ is likely loaded to standard pressures, while JHP for self-defense are often loaded to +P (5% over standard) or +P+ (~10% over standard)...the higher velocities to enhance bullet expansion in soft tissue. You are generally dealing with short distances when shooting pistols (0-50 yards) and the aerodynamics of the bullet is mostly inconsequential.

Contento | 03-05-2009 01:05 PM
Re: Good stats on stopping power Ah, so the FMJ is heavier. I guess I should have thought of that And if both bullets we're to be followed for a longer distance the FMJ might eventually pass the HP, even though it wouldn't matter at that point anyways. thanks!

Zusn | 03-05-2009 06:51 PM
Re: Good stats on stopping power Quote:
Originally Posted by AceNZ (Post 1608071) It continues to surprise me how most gun hobbyists refuse to accept many of the realities of a live gunfight, such as: -- Your assailant can easily keep moving for at least 30 seconds after being fatally shot (even with a so-called "one shot stop"). People usually don't fall down and stop like in the movies. PCP is probably the worst (or best depending who you are) when it comes trying to stop someone. If one wants to go out in a blaze of glory, I'd suggest a little angel dust first. -- It doesn't actually hurt that much to get shot with certain bullets, at least not at first (unless the bullet hits a bone or some other tender area). I had friend who got shot in the leg and didn't even know it for many minutes afterwards. -- Aiming at a moving target when under life-or-death pressure isn't something you can learn at the range. Most weekend hobbyists will have terrible aim in a gunfight, at be lucky if they hit anything at all. Most people don't know what it's like to get the "shakes" in a stress fire situation. Very frustrating. -- Most gunfights are over fast. You'll be lucky to get off 2 or 3 rounds, much less a whole clip. There's no such thing as too many guns and ammo. On the other hand, people saddle themselves with 50,000 rounds for their AK only to find out they'll never get a chance to use them all :wavey:
Comments in red above

platinumdude | 03-05-2009 10:14 PM
Re: Good stats on stopping power So what are the stopping power stats of a 50BMG?

buff01 | 03-05-2009 10:45 PM
Re: Good stats on stopping power Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 1608235) Which disproves/negates the rest of your post.:wavey:
I never said stopping power was important... in fact the point of my post was that it is not. :bear_w00t:

buff01 | 03-05-2009 10:45 PM
Re: Good stats on stopping power Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 1610024) So what are the stopping power stats of a 50BMG?
Now that's a gun with some muzzle energy.

CrufflerJJ | 03-06-2009 08:46 AM
Re: Good stats on stopping power Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 1610024) So what are the stopping power stats of a 50BMG?
It's bound to be low, since most of it is FMJ.[just kidding] Then again, I'm not aware of any handguns chambered in the .50 BMG. The recoil alone is bound to hurt. Imagine the flinch you'd develop after firing a round or two.

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