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- - The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=332868)

The Argent Dragon | 12-19-2008 01:55 PM
The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Ok, I admit it.........I put a 'sucker' title on this thread to 'lure' you in ! It's a good VIDEO though. I think ALL Americans should watch this. usflag You Tube
You Tube

Mike C | 12-19-2008 02:06 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Yep, everyone needs to see these videos. Truth hurts.

platinumdude | 12-19-2008 02:08 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? I can't get you tube from here, is that the one with the watermelon demonstration? In full auto an AK is a formidable weapons, so is the M16.

<SLV> | 12-19-2008 02:13 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? You're right. The AK-47 is a third-world toy. I'll take yours off your hands. :15_1_70v:

Twisted Avatar | 12-19-2008 02:22 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? That 30-06 will OBLITERATE a man Dam.... you get hit with that .....its over. And another 3 people behind you. Dam T

Eroberer | 12-19-2008 02:23 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? That video saddened me about my "weak" Saiga.

Twisted Avatar | 12-19-2008 02:24 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? I like some of the comments. Differense between ak47 and m16: ak47: shoot - hit shoot - miss shoot - hit shoot - miss shoot - hit m16: shoot - hit shoot - hit shoot - miss shoot - jammed, your dead. T

The Argent Dragon | 12-19-2008 02:33 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 1474205) I can't get you tube from here, is that the one with the watermelon demonstration? In full auto an AK is a formidable weapons, so is the M16.
YEP :ok: Quote:
That video saddened me about my "weak" Saiga.
Eroberer - sobering isn't it...........I'd like to conduct my own target test.

<SLV> | 12-19-2008 02:34 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by Eroberer (Post 1474223) That video saddened me about my "weak" Saiga.
Don't be sad... I just happen to be adopting unwanted Saigas. Just PM me and I'll get you my address.

The Argent Dragon | 12-19-2008 02:46 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Here's the stronger .308 Saiga for anyone looking to upgrade (keeping what you already have of course): http://www.ddsranch.com/cart/images/raalogo.jpg Russian American Armory Company http://www.ddsranch.com/cart/bmz_cac...age.150x26.jpg larger image Russian American Armory Saiga 308 Caliber Rifle With Wood Stock And 21.8" Barrel $559.95 Russian American Armory Company Saiga Rifle Caliber: 308 Win Action: Semi-Auto Barrel Length: 21.8" Capacity: 8 Length: 43.3" Weight: 8.5 lbs Metal Finish: Blued Stock: Wood http://www.ddsranch.com/cart/index.p...&keyword=saiga :ok:

Twisted Avatar | 12-19-2008 02:51 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Sold out on the wood 308 Poof!!! T

Zilver | 12-19-2008 02:54 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Judging from that demonstration it looked to me like the shotgun did the most damage. If things got bad and I needed to protect my homestead and family the first gun I would grab for defense would be my trusty 12 gauge semi auto to stop them varmints in their tracks. I certainly hope it never comes to this though, I would much rather help people than hurt them...

The Argent Dragon | 12-19-2008 02:57 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1474261) Sold out on the wood 308 Poof!!! T
Ooops,.......did you buy the LAST one ?!? :biggrin: Here's a .308 in stock - black http://www.ddsranch.com/cart/bmz_cac...age.150x49.jpg larger image Russian American Armory Saiga 308 Caliber Rifle With Black Synthetic Stock And 16.34" Barrel $589.95 Russian American Armory Company Saiga Rifle

Twisted Avatar | 12-19-2008 03:00 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilver (Post 1474264) Judging from that demonstration it looked to me like the shotgun did the most damage. If things got bad and I needed to protect my homestead and family the first gun I would grab for defense would be my trusty 12 gauge semi auto to stop them varmints in their tracks. I certainly hope it never comes to this though, I would much rather help people than hurt them...
As would any person. The problem is the other side is blowing out the support collums one by one on peaceful resolution so the only thing that will be left are the most drastic measures. We didnt start it. But we will dam sure finish it. T

CyberGold | 12-19-2008 10:16 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1474225) I like some of the comments. Differense between ak47 and m16: ak47: shoot - hit shoot - miss shoot - hit shoot - miss shoot - hit m16: shoot - hit shoot - hit shoot - miss shoot - jammed, your dead. T
You forgot FAL: shoot - hit no need for another shot...next target

CAVU | 12-19-2008 10:44 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Bottom line is Assault weapons are scary and ugly looking guns. They are being discriminated by the gunophobes based on looks not power.

platinumdude | 12-19-2008 11:54 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberGold (Post 1474874) You forgot FAL: shoot - hit no need for another shot...next target
If you shoot accurate you can do single kills with a .22

Ares | 12-20-2008 12:05 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? I've never had my AR-15 jam with 2k worth of rounds put into it. Just clean it after you're done firing it, and you're set. :)

moreair | 12-20-2008 12:13 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? NICE! The 9mm did nto do jack. I love ugly guns:s1:

mick silver | 12-20-2008 02:48 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? my 7mm well flip a deer

Pat | 12-20-2008 10:09 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? My Remington 1100 has more firepower than those foreign AKs with 30 rnd clips of underpowered soviet ammo ... Communist junk.

platinumdude | 12-20-2008 11:06 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? My 30mm will flip a car.

ruprick | 12-20-2008 11:10 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Just cut through all the crap....get an M1 Garand and shoot expanding hunting loads....30.06 power and a deadly projectile.......ability to have a lot of quick reload ammo and no need to lug around or buy a lot of magazines (uses an 8 round Enbloc clip). Most deadly battle rifle ever made. And let's face it.....you will not be out on any 7 day 40 mile long distant patrols like in Viet Nam...we will be fighting (if it ever gets that bad....) from our homes and in our hoods. Unless you have a modified full auto....no real need for 30 rounds....when you can just shove 8 more in in under 2-3 seconds. Anyway and AR-15 is over 8 pounds and the M1 is about 9 pounds...not big diff. Toss that Foreign/Russian crap in the garbage where it belongs (and by the way....i own one....). Get accurate, powerful, quality. Same goes for those overpriced mouse .223 guns (and i also have several of those...).

platinumdude | 12-20-2008 11:12 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? What about the FN Scar? Overpriced?

platinumdude | 12-20-2008 11:18 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 1475294) Just cut through all the crap....get an M1 Garand and shoot expanding hunting loads....30.06 power and a deadly projectile.......ability to have a lot of quick reload ammo and no need to lug around or buy a lot of magazines (uses an 8 round Enbloc clip). Most deadly battle rifle ever made. And let's face it.....you will not be out on any 7 day 40 mile long distant patrols like in Viet Nam...we will be fighting (if it ever gets that bad....) from our homes and in our hoods. Unless you have a modified full auto....no real need for 30 rounds....when you can just shove 8 more in in under 2-3 seconds. Anyway and AR-15 is over 8 pounds and the M1 is about 9 pounds...not big diff. Toss that Foreign/Russian crap in the garbage where it belongs (and by the way....i own one....). Get accurate, powerful, quality. Same goes for those overpriced mouse .223 guns (and i also have several of those...).
So why haven't you thrown yours in the garbage yet?

stillprepping | 12-20-2008 12:39 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 1475294) Just cut through all the crap....get an M1 Garand and shoot expanding hunting loads..
being all set to get an ak47 or 2, now i'm really confused about what to get. isnt the M1's inability to hold more than 8 rounds limiting in comparison to an ak's 30+? any idea on what one might pay for one in good condition? fwiw, i found this vid on the M1: You Tube
You Tube

koyaanisqatsi | 12-20-2008 12:55 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Warning: What you are about to read is from a man who attended graduate school this past Summer to get a state teaching certificate for High School Physics, Math, Biology, Astronomy and Chemistry. I dropped out -- but I got an education in sciences, along with a business degree. I have all the pre-requisite courses in the sciences and I excel at physics. :thumb.aspx: You are looking at a very simple video demonstration of kinetic energy delivered into a target. When we say something is "powerful" in this way, we are saying it has a high transfer of available kinetic energy. The watermelon is almost 100% water. Water does not compress, so it has almost zero ability to compress at a high speed impact, (example hydraulics) so it must move out of the way with a velocity to match the transfer of kinetic energy input, (e=mv squared) and so it is inelastic. The casing of a watermelon (rind) is frangible also, and so it as well is inelastic. So a watermelon it is much like a frangible ' eggshell' (rind) full of hard (water molecules) billiard balls. By comparison a pillow inside a rubber casing would be very elastic, like air and compressible. This watermelon can be compared to a jug of water, except the melon has some spongy air voids to make the collision more elastic than a jug of water. The biggest difference factor between a jug and a melon however is the frangible casing of a watermelon that ruptures with a minimum threshhold of energy inside. The 9mm and the SPITZER SHAPED 7.62x39 simply do not exceed the minimum transfer of energy required to move enough water fast enough to rupture the melon's casing. And a waterjug no air pockets for interior greater elasticity, but has a tough very elastic shell of plastic, minor difference in principle, except in the visual shattering effect. But the determining factor is the amount of energy TRANSFERRED into the target. The amount of energy transferred is directly proportional to the amount of energy required to PUSH THE BULLET (resistance) though the target medium. (Energy applied to target = energy x resistance to bullet's passage by target) It's very easy to push a 0.30" diameter FMJ spitzer through a watermelon like an icepick. The TRANSFER FO ENERGY is very small and yet the bullet itself has abundant energy to deliver a shattering blow to a watermelon. The energy is not absorbed or lost into the target medium so the bullet carries onward saving almost all it's energy for whatever lies beyond the watermelon. Round nose bullets transfer more energy from the bullet into the target than spire-pointed spitzers. Flat nose bullets transfer more than round noses. Expanded to 180% of original caliber soft points or hollow points transfer more energy than flat nose bullets. This is analogous to "ballistic coefficient". The ballistic coefficient is sometimes not that well understood by shooters. So here is a simple definition: Simply defined, it represents how well a bullet resists air drag. But here we are talking about how well it resists the "drag" or "resistance" of a watery penetration. The .243 and 30-30 probably expand to about 180% of original diameter inside the watermelon. An expansion of 180% in diameter is an expansion of 3.2x the frontal area of a bullet. The frontal area is what transfers energy as it is a directly proportional funcion of drag and resstance. So more water is affected and has to get out of the way, and is thereby imparted energy much like an eggshell full of molecular billiard balls. The shotgun (1 - 1/4 ounce of tiny round balls) has by far the largest frontal area and the lowest ballistic coefficient and therfore the highest rate of direct energy transfer into the melon. ALL THE ENERGY is delivered to the target as no pellet energy is residual after passage. Comparative frontal diameters: The 9mm has a frontal diameter of .357 but the chosen round is NOT a HS hollow point ... Why? It might shatter the watermelon and so look MORE "powerful" than the AK-47. That would be absurd, so let's just make it look like for now the AK-47 is in the same class of "power" as a 9mm handgun ... why not let's just keep it simple? Hmmm... the point of this video bullet "comparison" is -- I see only a watermelon! WOW! .243 x 180% expansion = .44 caliber = frontal area of 0.152" .30 caliber with no expansion = frontal area of 0.070" or half as much as a .243 expanding tip bullet. Compunding this on the military round, it's designed to meet the Geneva Convention and a FMJ spitzer to optimize velocity retention at long ranges. The POINT is very small and so is the resistance to it's passage. It's resistance is very much less than the actual diameter would indicate since it's like an icepick... shape matters when pushing an object into resistance. 30-30 expanded to 180% has a caliber of .54 and so it's frontal area is .229" or 3x the area of the 7.62 and like the mushroomed .243 it is ROUNDED not pointed so it transfers energy (slows down) much more quickly ... almost immeasurably so. Now the 1 1/4 oz of say, # 6 birdshot ... that's 281 pellets each with caliber of .11 and therefore a frontal diameter of 0.0095", so (281 x 0.0095") = 2.67" or 38x the frontal area of the .30 caliber round. Probably few of the pellets go through, or have residual energy after impact, so ALL the 12ga kinetic energy is imparted into the target medium. So we say, Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? A baseball bat smacked into a watermelon would do much the same thing as a 30-30, seemingly by this test atleast to say a baseball bat is "more powerful" than an AK-47 ... ("power" = energy = swift transfer of a reasonably similar amount of kinetic energy to the target medium, imparting energy and velocity to that inelastic and frangible medium) This is how bursting a watermelon can be related to a pi :wink: Circle's area, diameter, circumfrence calculator You may think my comments are just silliness. But to me this is all just silliness, since it's one type of propaganda countering another type of propaganda. http://image.sportsmansguide.com/dim...0,130&cvt=jpeg Load a Wolf 154gr soft point 7.62x39 and see it perhaps match the .243 or more in watermelon destruction "power". Measure penetration through watermelons however, say of the .7.62x39 FMJ versus the .243 softpoint and the FMJ will FAR exceed it. This video is a biased discussion and demonstration of the effects of (kinetic energy X bullet construction and design) upon a 95% ineleastic watermelon. It counters another biased argument by the anti-assault rifle crowd. It would be perfect to teach a high school physics class. But I don't mean to teach anything but truth here ... every bullet wounded GI should be happy for the Geneva Convention's predecessor perhaps ... but men are not like watermelons I'm sure. :36_3_12: The first full-metal-jacket rifle bullet to be adopted for a military rifle was designed by Major Rubin, director of the Swiss Laboratory at Thun in 1883. FMJ ammunition is acceptable for military use by the countries that signed the Hague Convention of 1899, which prohibits the use of hollow-point or expanding bullets in war between the countries which signed that agreement. It is often incorrectly stated that the prohibition is part of the Geneva Conventions, and that full metal jacket bullets are specifically required. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_metal_jacket_bullet Clearly this is a case of apples and oranges -- but I AGREE an AK-47 has about 80-90% the same "power" (potential kinetic energy) as a .243 or a 30-30. IMO, This is a demostration of essentially nothing but a varying bullet's design effects.

mick silver | 12-20-2008 12:57 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 1475290) My 30mm will flip a car.
that was a good one lol

mick silver | 12-20-2008 12:59 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? i was told the ak47 ammo was made to go though more the one thing are person

flying | 12-20-2008 02:44 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Fun video but........Folks make assumptions based on a watermelon? If it were able to cross ref none would even use a shotgun to hunt right? I mean unless you want to pick up duck as hamburger :wink:

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SLV>GLD | 12-20-2008 05:24 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by flying (Post 1475472) none would even use a shotgun to hunt right?
Wrong. SGs are the most versatile firearms and hunting is no exception. Depending on the load/barrel you can take down everything from rabbit and waterfowl to deer to boar to bear to elephant all with the same gun. Yes, you can turn a duck into hamburger with the wrong load. If you are going to have one gun and one gun only it had better be a shotgun with a wide variety of ammo and preferably a separate barrel.

flying | 12-20-2008 05:27 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 1475656) Wrong. SGs are the most versatile firearms and hunting is no exception. Depending on the load/barrel you can take down everything from rabbit and waterfowl to deer to boar to bear to elephant all with the same gun. Yes, you can turn a duck into hamburger with the wrong load. If you are going to have one gun and one gun only it had better be a shotgun with a wide variety of ammo and preferably a separate barrel.
Oh I agree 100% & the only guns I have out of hiding are my 870 & my 45 I just meant in the context that they are showing it is misleading.

SLV>GLD | 12-20-2008 05:55 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by flying (Post 1475662) I just meant in the context that they are showing it is misleading.
"I see", said the blind man. You make a very good point in that case. :bear_wub:

Agamemnon | 12-21-2008 08:24 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? 7.62X39 is still a stinking sawed off bullet .... If its a bunch of zippy little projectiles you want - get a 22 autoloader with banana clips. If it awesome firepower you want - get a 12 gage autoloader with double "OO" buckshot. .

ruprick | 12-22-2008 01:28 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 1475301) So why haven't you thrown yours in the garbage yet?
The only reason I own the AR15 and AK47..... I needed the AR15 to complete my "US Military" Rifle collection (I have one example of every US Military Rifle centerfire rifle from the 1873 Trapdoor Springfield through the AR15).....and the AK....that was on a whim over 15 years ago....just to better understand the gun. Plus, not a bad idea the have one or 2 AR15...since the military and police both use this caliber......good to have diversity....the AK....not only junk....but also an odd ball cartridge. Again....AK and SKS were ok back when you could but cases of ammo for under $100....but that was a long time ago. I will not be buying any additional ARs or AKs. The AR is a fine rifle....but they are too expensive for what they are. The AK...it was just o.k. back when I paid $300 for it....but no value at today's prices. An AK will have a difficult time hitting men at even 300 yards.....i shot several and they are just not accurate enough.... They are reliable enough...but overall opinion is that they are not accurate enough to be effective at any range much over 200 yards.

ruprick | 12-22-2008 01:52 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by stillprepping (Post 1475364) being all set to get an ak47 or 2, now i'm really confused about what to get. isnt the M1's inability to hold more than 8 rounds limiting in comparison to an ak's 30+? any idea on what one might pay for one in good condition? fwiw, i found this vid on the M1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLY3T1zGO9o
In my opinion...8 rounds capacity is plenty....and it is very easy to shove in another 8 in just a second or two. Also has the advantage not having a long magazine hanging out the bottom. An AK is complete junk in comparison to a Garand....they both will shoot...but a Garand and print on a man sized target all day at 600 yards....I don't even know if an AK can even shoot 600 yards.......(it can but you would be lucky to even hit a car with it at that range). You can even do a pretty good job with a Garand at 1000 yards with open sights......and I'm takling a G.I. issue gun ....not a target modified rifle. The M1A / M14 is just M1 Garand in .308 and a detachable box magazine....if you must have more that 8 rounds in the gun at one time.....I have an M1A...but prefer the M1. M1 run between $500 and $1000 depending on condition. All M1A are north of $1000.....but there are seroius rifles.

flying | 12-22-2008 01:58 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 1477302) You can even do a pretty good job with a Garand at 1000 yards with open sights......and I'm takling a G.I. issue gun ....not a target modified rifle. The M1A / M14 is just M1 Garand in .308 and a detachable box magazine....if you must have more that 8 rounds in the gun at one time.....I have an M1A...but prefer the M1. M1 run between $500 and $1000 depending on condition. All M1A are north of $1000.....but there are seroius rifles.
You know your right & they are a good deal. I always regret not having taken mine after the high power comp. Remember they use to give you the certificate to get one for 165 bucks? I never sent mine off. Do they still do that? So I do agree with what you say in essence but........ The reason I never sent mine was how affordable it was to reload the AR. Yes we often got free military ammo for the garands but for me it was not a fun shoot all afternoon kinda gun,,,,, Still wish i had gotten that though :)

ruprick | 12-22-2008 02:16 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by flying (Post 1477305) You know your right & they are a good deal. I always regret not having taken mine after the high power comp. Remember they use to give you the certificate to get one for 165 bucks? I never sent mine off. Do they still do that? So I do agree with what you say in essence but........ The reason I never sent mine was how affordable it was to reload the AR. Yes we often got free military ammo for the garands but for me it was not a fun shoot all afternoon kinda gun,,,,, Still wish i had gotten that though :)
The DCM or whatever they call themselves these days...will still sell you a M! Garand for about $500. The key is you must belong to a DCM affiliated club...and demonstrate marksmanship activity....they have all the requirements on the DCM site. I went to the Small Arms School at Camp Perry Ohio...to meet the requirements...and it is fun to shoot the AR15 300 yards at the school.....that met the requirement back before i got into competative shooting. And i joined a DCM club. I bought one of the $400 Garands...a very nice rifle. Then there was a neat deal for NRA members about 10 years ago....you could enter the DCM lottery for a few M1D "Sniper" Garands they found in a warehouse......I entered...and 3 years later...they sent me a registered letter! They drew my name...and I think i paid about $900 for the factory new, fully equiped M1D Garand....scope, scope mount, fash suppressor, sling tool kit, leather cheek pad....everything.....they were worth about $3000 back 10 years ago......I've seen documented "DCM" examples selling for over $4500 recently. That was a good deal. Back in the 1960's the NRA had DCM M1 Carbines for just $20.....my dad bought one....a Winchester - the lowest production M1 Carbine....they are worth about $1500 today. I love all the US 30.06 rifles....the WW1 1903 and the 1917 P17 "Enfield" - both fantastic bolt guns......and then the WWII 1903A3 (revised version of WWI)......I have a 1903A3 made by Smith Corona Typewritter Co. A fun hobby - converts FRN to useful guns that go up in value...and the are perfect for SHTF.....what more could you want?

flying | 12-22-2008 02:24 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Hey you have a nice collection & that was a lucky deal on the M1D good for you! Sounds like a lot of your rifles have appreciated a good bit. Yeah back when I did the DCM match I shot a garand for 80 rounds I believe it was? Then they gave us the paper to send off for the rifle for 165 bucks. AR @ 300 yds must have been fun. 200 yds is the longest range we have here.

ruprick | 12-22-2008 02:49 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by flying (Post 1477318) Hey you have a nice collection & that was a lucky deal on the M1D good for you! Sounds like a lot of your rifles have appreciated a good bit. Yeah back when I did the DCM match I shot a garand for 80 rounds I believe it was? Then they gave us the paper to send off for the rifle for 165 bucks. AR @ 300 yds must have been fun. 200 yds is the longest range we have here.
Bone stock....highly used AR15.....shooting prone with a sling.....you can put 40 out of 40 in the center of a mans chest in a circle the size of a dinner plate.....with just simple peep sights......it is surprising.....the front sight post is wider than the target by quite a bit....but you just kind of center it on the target frame....and they all fall right in there....it increased my respect for the AR. They also had us in the target pit running the target up and down with an orange marker disk inserted into the last shot......you can hear the little sonic boom as the bullet passes over your head......sounds like a snap&pop...pretty neat - never really thought about it until I experienced super sonic projectiles passing 10 feet over my head.

platinumdude | 12-22-2008 10:31 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? I guess it depends what someone's situation is. Most people even in here live in the city and will never need the distance that a .308 offers. For short distances I see no problem with an ar15 or an ak47. Some people will complain about a lack of power of even the ak47, yet carry a pistol in their car or person for self defense. I will have all three rifles but will only use a .308 for long distance target shooting or for a really bad situation, or if I ever move to the country and will have one before the Obama ban.

dimitri | 12-22-2008 10:40 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 1477611) I guess it depends what someone's situation is. Most people even in here live in the city and will never need the distance that a .308 offers. For short distances I see no problem with an ar15 or an ak47. Some people will complain about a lack of power of even the ak47, yet carry a pistol in their car or person for self defense. I will have all three rifles but will only use a .308 for long distance target shooting or for a really bad situation, or if I ever move to the country and will have one before the Obama ban.
I think the 'politically correct assault rifle' is the best choice - lever action .30-30. In the city, most shots will be under 100 yards and this has the accuracy (and more power). It is also very suitable for hunting, seems to me like the most versatile weapon.

ruprick | 12-22-2008 10:43 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Go out and shoot a AK47 at even a modest distance of 100 to 200 yards.....still not very impressive accuracy. I figure if you can't make a high probability head shot at 200 yards....get another gun. Just because the M1/M1A can shoot 600+ yards....is not the primary motive....just having a high quality rifle with lots of killing power and high accuracy is the plan. Don't get me wrong....you can get a lot of shooting with an AK47 and can kill out to several hundred yards....buy you may just need 1 accurate shot...and why not have a rifle you can trust to get the job done. Agree with above post....an nice handy 30-30 lever action carbine is very nice.....Winchester no longer make them....but I prefer the Marlin anyway....it has side ejection....while Winchester is top eject.....makes it a pain for mounting optics on a Winchester. A 30-30 is very effective on deer.....but I just had a very experienced hunting friend make a bad shot on a deer at 220 yards this weekend with a 30-30 with a scope (lots of hair but no blood).....I think we would have been taking that meat home with a 30.06 For neighborhood action a 30-30 lever would be very useful.

Doge | 12-22-2008 11:50 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by dimitri (Post 1477622) I think the 'politically correct assault rifle' is the best choice - lever action .30-30. In the city, most shots will be under 100 yards and this has the accuracy (and more power). It is also very suitable for hunting, seems to me like the most versatile weapon.
Agreed. Lever guns (especially in .30 30, .44 mag, .357 mag, or 45 Colt) make for great defensive weapons and hunting rifles. There are reasons why these guns have been around for over a 100 years and are still popular. But everyone should have a semi-auto of some type just in case.

ruprick | 12-22-2008 12:57 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by Doge (Post 1477695) Agreed. Lever guns (especially in .30 30, .44 mag, .357 mag, or 45 Colt) make for great defensive weapons and hunting rifles. There are reasons why these guns have been around for over a 100 years and are still popular. But everyone should have a semi-auto of some type just in case.
In rough terms...anytime you put a pistol cartridge into a carbine....count on about 25% more velocity...so thats roughly 50% more energy. It takes the 357/44/45 Colt to a whole new level....I would still like to get a 357 carbine...to go with the revolver.

flying | 12-22-2008 02:49 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 1477329) They also had us in the target pit running the target up and down with an orange marker disk inserted into the last shot......you can hear the little sonic boom as the bullet passes over your head......sounds like a snap&pop...pretty neat - never really thought about it until I experienced super sonic projectiles passing 10 feet over my head.
That made me smile Must have been fun & something I would like to experience (from the safety of the pit only :wink:)

The Argent Dragon | 12-22-2008 02:49 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 1477771) In rough terms...anytime you put a pistol cartridge into a carbine....count on about 25% more velocity...so thats roughly 50% more energy. It takes the 357/44/45 Colt to a whole new level....I would still like to get a 357 carbine...to go with the revolver.
This is very true........I used to have one of those 'bastard' Tommy guns with the P.C. long barrel (16") and it flung those .45's over a 100-yd distance into the target with no problem. :wink:

The Argent Dragon | 12-22-2008 02:50 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 1477611) I guess it depends what someone's situation is. Most people even in here live in the city and will never need the distance that a .308 offers......
Ahhhh.......but the penetration of a .308 can go through walls or other obstacles to strike your target. Also think 'power' not just 'distance' :coolbeer:

platinumdude | 12-22-2008 09:02 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? This test shows that handgun rounds penetrate better than rifle rounds! http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot7.htm

The Argent Dragon | 12-23-2008 09:12 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 1478420) This test shows that handgun rounds penetrate better than rifle rounds! http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot7.htm
The key is 'RIFLING' and Barrel length. A Rifle round in a handgun isn't going to get you the benefits that a much longer barrel would. The velocity is probably cut by 50% or better (guessing here and no I didn't do the math).

StrawMan=Corporation | 12-23-2008 11:48 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? How do you define an Assault Weapon ? IS it any weapon you assault someone with ? Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVU (Post 1474910) Bottom line is Assault weapons are scary and ugly looking guns. They are being discriminated by the gunophobes based on looks not power.

The Argent Dragon | 12-23-2008 12:04 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Assault weapon From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Assault weapon refers to a broad category of firearms, including military-style semiautomatic rifles derived from assault rifles, and also including some pistols and shotguns. Assault weapons are often similar in appearance to military firearms, but are capable of firing only one round each time the trigger is pulled. There are a variety of different statutory definitions of assault weapon in local, state, and federal laws in the United States that define them by a set of characteristics they possess. Using lists of physical features or specific firearms in defining assault weapons in the US was first codified by the language defining semi-automatic rifles with certain characteristics in the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban. See the U.S. Code of 2004 section on firearms.[1] Very generally speaking, a firearm is defined by these laws as an assault weapon if it has both a detachable magazine and a pistol grip, sometimes in conjunction with other features such as a folding stock or a flash suppressor. Whether or not assault weapons should be legally restricted more than other firearms, how they should be defined, and even whether or not the term assault weapon should be used at all, are questions subject to considerable debate as part of the arguments of gun politics in the United States. GUN POLITICS ~ Freakin' dumbass lawyers..............sheesh :rant: :banghead: :rant: :thumpdown

Doge | 12-23-2008 04:00 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 1479419) Or tar and feathers.
Yeah, ask Joseph Smith. ;)

The Argent Dragon | 12-23-2008 04:14 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by Doge (Post 1479430) Yeah, ask Joseph Smith. ;)
http://www.geocities.com/royalistpar...nd_feather.jpg

Lt Dan | 12-23-2008 06:58 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 1477314) The DCM or whatever they call themselves these days...will still sell you a M! Garand for about $500. The key is you must belong to a DCM affiliated club...and demonstrate marksmanship activity....they have all the requirements on the DCM site.........
Here is the link to what they call themselves now and yes, I do own a few M1 Garands. Best battle rifle ever made by America. Best in the world IMO. :36_3_12:

ruprick | 12-23-2008 07:52 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 1477877) A combat veteran would never say such a thing. Apparently pride is a major component in your deliberations.
I think I own 50+ rifles.....have competed to the level of Expert Classification in both Rifle and Pistol....shooting from 3 position out to 600 yards. I have only met a few folks that are better combined rifle and pistol shots.....I have a lot of experience in shooting/competing/reloading and accurizing. An AK47 is ok for spray and pray shooting...100 or 200 yards is probably fine....but any reasonable battle rifle ....a primary line issue battle rifle shoud be capable of accurate shots out to at least 300 yards and 500 yards would be even better.....and the AK can't do this....so no pride based bias here. What are you to do when you see enemy at 300 yards....run away? Take both apart.....look at how they are made....look at the quality. I like most of your posts....but often wonder what basis in fact or experience from which you make some very biased pro-russian-junk starements......I recall some posts on the Russian P-14 Radial vs Lycoming/Continental aircraft engines.....I know about these things.....and I own several Russian made target pistols....no comparison to anything USA/Germany/Swiss in quality. The AK is still a complete pile of junk compared to the M1 Garand. They are built like garbage.....yes - they are cheap to manufacture...but the end product is cheap. It is like comparing a Timex to a Rolex.....yes, they both keep time....

bfnelson | 12-23-2008 10:09 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 1479913) TRANSLATION: Blah, blah, blah...based upon my own life's experiences (which are mega) and which do not include actually being angry enough to the point of becoming extremely highly motivated to KILL(!) another man instantly and taking immediate, positive action to do just that I have utterly NO concept of the any of Sun Tzu's teachings about the Art of War. Nor have I ever associated with any real combats vets who would clue me into toning it down a notch or two - that killing people and watching people get killed ain't nearly as glorious as the media would like to have everyone think. I look forward to engaging men as targets at ranges of 300 to 500 yards with a battlerifle! Blah, blah, blah...
Man I can't imagine when I'd see targets coming that far, that's a few football fields away. Where do you all live that you can see that far? If I stand at one end of a football field and look to the other goal line, that's pretty far. The thing is you don't get alot of time to aim when people are shooting at you so I think hitting something that far away with open sights would not be easy. Don't you all think that most engagements would be in this range?

bfnelson | 12-23-2008 10:40 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 1479966) Why? To be shooting at other humans at such a range one would have to intentionally be seeking out others to engage. "To defeat one must vanquish; to defend one must merely survive." I've been in a real shit storm before, and it's not someplace I care to be again - indeed, I take pains to avoid that place. I'm not looking for trouble, however if trouble finds me it will be a bad day for trouble.
Oh I meant 100 yards MAXIMUM

CAVU | 12-23-2008 10:50 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by StrawMan=Corporation (Post 1479095) How do you define an Assault Weapon ? IS it any weapon you assault someone with ?
Sorry I need to get used to using emoticons more.... It should have been this... Bottom line is Assault weapons are scary and ugly looking guns.:sarcasm: They are being discriminated by the gunophobes based on looks not power. I define an assault weapon as anything used with intent to injure another. Fists, bats, nail gun, 2x4, dead catfish, etc.

flying | 12-23-2008 11:25 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 1479733) Take both apart.....look at how they are made....look at the quality. The AK is still a complete pile of junk compared to the M1 Garand. They are built like garbage.....yes - they are cheap to manufacture...but the end product is cheap. It is like comparing a Timex to a Rolex.....yes, they both keep time....
Gotta agree from that standpoint. Many had them & brought them out & my first thought when firing them was...... What is all the excitement about? The workmanship & fit & finish were terrible. Reminded me of CZ's early bikes back when the Russians had black tools. I mean yes of course folks use them to kill & yes they do kill. No question about it. But quality? nah.... just a black tool. Some countries just make things better from a quality stand point & it is obvious. A ratty rusty knife kills & so does a finely made blade.

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Lt Dan | 12-24-2008 12:30 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 1479922) I couldn't agree with you more. The Garand is as good as it gets, for what it is and what it does (so long as it's an '06). However it's not optimum as a 'stand-alone' sort of rifle, IMO primarily because it's not a suitable platform for modern glass and NVDs.
Neither is it a candidate for CQB, but it does shine out past 300 yds at the range LOL. Actually, when we start talking those kind of ranges, we're talking optics and bolt guns, if ya ask me. I do also like my M1A for anything else. There is a rifle that has changed with the times.

StrawMan=Corporation | 12-25-2008 12:03 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Thanks for that. For a minute I thought you were an anti. I also should have seen your Sarcasm and wasn't paying proper attention. My apologies. Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVU (Post 1480051) Sorry I need to get used to using emoticons more.... It should have been this... Bottom line is Assault weapons are scary and ugly looking guns.:sarcasm: They are being discriminated by the gunophobes based on looks not power. I define an assault weapon as anything used with intent to injure another. Fists, bats, nail gun, 2x4, dead catfish, etc.

koyaanisqatsi | 02-17-2009 02:54 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? This thread began with a demonstration of "power" as seen upon watermelons... So the KEY is NOT the gun, but it sure is fun seeing a chick blow up a water melon (head) with a little .410 she pulls from her purse. Subliminal seduction? I wonder ... But why don't we see this 30-second TV-spot? Not so politically correct? But I NEVER watch TV anyway so ... here is a "powerful" demonstration of a 3" chambered Taurus Judge maybe ... think about it, another 'girl with a gun' ... and mine usually carries (5) Super-X 5-shot 000 buck, 25 .36 cal holes in about 3 seconds ... some say it's not good for defense... Hmmm... yeah I guess. Good FUN = bad day for melon-heads. But I got no nice girl, no big melons, just the big boomin' silvery gun ... oh well. Watermelons should fear me without question. Vegetables are no match for my firepower. Maybe I'm just full of bull. Melon heads feeling lucky? ENJOY with a smile. :signs1: The new Taurus Magnum Judge carries a "stiffer sentence" ...
The new Taurus Magnum Judge carries a "stiffer sentence" ...

crazychicken | 02-17-2009 04:26 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilver (Post 1474264) Judging from that demonstration it looked to me like the shotgun did the most damage. If things got bad and I needed to protect my homestead and family the first gun I would grab for defense would be my trusty 12 gauge semi auto to stop them varmints in their tracks. I certainly hope it never comes to this though, I would much rather help people than hurt them...
Right on!!!!!!!!!!!!! CC

S_Goldberg | 02-17-2009 09:38 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? These are melons. Not people. Melons and people are in no way the same. People have a skeletal structure and elastic tissue, melons do not. There can be no comparison between melon performance and people/animal performance. Google "terminal ballistics" or "wound ballistics" if you want to read more about how bullets actually perform. Do be careful though, there is a lot of BS in terminal ballistics theories.

CrufflerJJ | 02-17-2009 10:44 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by S_Goldberg (Post 1575140) These are melons. Not people. Melons and people are in no way the same. People have a skeletal structure and elastic tissue, melons do not. There can be no comparison between melon performance and people/animal performance. Google "terminal ballistics" or "wound ballistics" if you want to read more about how bullets actually perform. Do be careful though, there is a lot of BS in terminal ballistics theories.
One good book that I like on this subject is "Bullet Penetration - Modeling the Dynamics and the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma", by Duncan MacPherson (ISBN 0-9643577-1-2). As the title might suggest, this book doesn't talk about what type of round is best for blowing up melons.

elroy | 02-17-2009 11:19 AM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? I am totally prepared for the attack of the zombie watermelons. They had better stay away from my place!

CrufflerJJ | 02-17-2009 12:10 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy (Post 1575370) I am totally prepared for the attack of the zombie watermelons.
OK, that's good to hear about being ready for zombie watermelons. But what about the killer cukes, or savage squash? Hopefully you've got plenty of loaded mags ready.:biggrin:

Doge | 02-17-2009 02:07 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by S_Goldberg (Post 1575140) These are melons. Not people. Melons and people are in no way the same. People have a skeletal structure and elastic tissue, melons do not. There can be no comparison between melon performance and people/animal performance. Google "terminal ballistics" or "wound ballistics" if you want to read more about how bullets actually perform. Do be careful though, there is a lot of BS in terminal ballistics theories.
Correct. The best thing for people to legally shoot to test how a bullet would damage a person is a pig carcass.

The Biss | 02-17-2009 03:16 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Jumping on the Garand bandwagon here. I have a Harrington/Richardson from 1955 that is a real tack driver. My local indoor range has eight 100 yd indoor positions. Most of the guys with the scoped black rifles are set up on the 50 yd line. Typically it's me and some fellow with one arm and a .308 Bushmaster that set our targets at 100 yds. He sandbags, and I use a leather sling with iron sights. We shoot similar target groups. My most recent was 15 of 16 (two clips) in an 8" bulleye, with several in the 1" center ring. My 100 yd setting is 15 clicks up and 2 clicks left.

____hoot____ | 02-17-2009 03:21 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? [quote=Agamemnon;1476983]7.62X39 is still a stinking sawed off bullet .... If its a bunch of zippy little projectiles you want - get a 22 autoloader with banana clips. If it awesome firepower you want - get a 12 gage autoloader with double "OO" buckshot. Yep it's a stinkin sawed off bullet, that is why professional poachers in Africa use three round bursts of 7.62X39 from their AKs to take down elephants

bfnelson | 02-17-2009 04:11 PM
Re: The KEY is NOT the gun ! ~ So you think AK's are powerful ? Quote:
Originally Posted by ____hoot____ (Post 1575982) If its a bunch of zippy little projectiles you want - get a 22 autoloader with banana clips. If it awesome firepower you want - get a 12 gage autoloader with double "OO" buckshot. Yep it's a stinkin sawed off bullet, that is why professional poachers in Africa use three round bursts of 7.62X39 from their AKs to take down elephants
If you search on you tube there's a guy selling a 10/22 full auto conversion dvd. He empties a 50 round drum into a steel trashcan full of water, that would have tore someone to pieces.

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