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wallew | 09-19-2009 12:59 AM
Body armor So, not asking what or IF you have some. Just saying it's NOT a bad idea. There are LOTS of places to get them. And all sorts of vests/body armor to consider and several ratings to take into account. So, without further ado, here are but a few ideas. Second Chance Bullet proof me Guardian (I think it's guardian) Level II, Level III, Level IIIA, Level IV Soft vests, hard vests, body armor, ballistic panels, ballistic clothing What else can you add? Again, not asking if you do or do not, just trying to put up a thread to get folks thinking about it. And they are not as expensive as you might think. Now is the time. GET SOME.

skyvike | 09-19-2009 01:55 AM
Re: Body armor Yes experts, please! I'd love to learn more about this topic! s

Real Money Now | 09-19-2009 02:19 AM
Re: Body armor What would be the purpose of using it? Protection while in the community? At home/on one's property? Defense against what? Garden-variety thugs? Thugs with badges? Against pistols? Rifles? It would seem to me that body armor is best utilized by an aggressive party or by targets of assassination/high-profile mugging, not the ordinary citizen. Against centerfire rifles, even Level IV is marginally useful (the plates will crack/shatter, and multiple hits will get through). Shotgun slugs and rifles will easily defeat Level III (not all will get through, but the energy of impact makes that irrelevant). For most pistols/revolvers, soft would be effective. however; especially against the sissy calibers many garden-variety thugs use. For home use, I'd prefer designated cover, perhaps concrete walls or even purpose-deployed steel plates, over body armor.

Waylon | 09-19-2009 05:19 AM
Re: Body armor If anyone could kindly direct me to some Dragon Skin that would be greatly appreciated. I recall the bank robbery gunfight in California? about 10 years ago. Although it was not Dragon Skin they were wearing, whatever they were sporting worked! Dude was taking rounds from every direction and answering them in turn. Sorry, can't get link to video (no streaming at work).

Operation Grief | 09-19-2009 07:39 AM
Re: Body armor Quote:
Originally Posted by Waylon (Post 1929175) I recall the bank robbery gunfight in California? about 10 years ago...Although it was not Dragon Skin they were wearing, whatever they were sporting worked! Dude was taking rounds from every direction and answering them in turn.
That's because nobody bothered to take a headshot.

Professur | 09-19-2009 07:49 AM
Re: Body armor Quote:
Originally Posted by Operation Grief (Post 1929224) That's because nobody bothered to take a headshot.
Wasn't from lack of trying .. they just didn't have anyone able to shoot well enough. Pretty flammin' sad ... given that they all have to qualify on the range. Imagine Joe-Q who maybe shoots twice a year.

platinumdude | 09-19-2009 09:14 AM
Re: Body armor Quote:
Originally Posted by Waylon (Post 1929175) If anyone could kindly direct me to some Dragon Skin that would be greatly appreciated. I recall the bank robbery gunfight in California? about 10 years ago. Although it was not Dragon Skin they were wearing, whatever they were sporting worked! Dude was taking rounds from every direction and answering them in turn. Sorry, can't get link to video (no streaming at work).
You need to be in the military or in the police in order for them to sell it to you. At least the last time I checked.

TTAZZMAN | 09-19-2009 09:44 AM
Re: Body armor Quote:
Originally Posted by Waylon (Post 1929175) If anyone could kindly direct me to some Dragon Skin that would be greatly appreciated. I recall the bank robbery gunfight in California? about 10 years ago. Although it was not Dragon Skin they were wearing, whatever they were sporting worked! Dude was taking rounds from every direction and answering them in turn. Sorry, can't get link to video (no streaming at work).
the cops were initially using pistols.....when they went and got some ARs the battle was over

TTAZZMAN | 09-19-2009 09:48 AM
Re: Body armor Quote:
Originally Posted by Operation Grief (Post 1929224) That's because nobody bothered to take a headshot.
I imagine it would be hard to get a head shot in when the cops were majorly out guned and out ranged in every way......Drum maged auto AKs and Body armor vs 9mm pistols and uniforms...

JJ_ | 09-19-2009 11:40 AM
Re: Body armor Quote:
Originally Posted by Waylon (Post 1929175) If anyone could kindly direct me to some Dragon Skin that would be greatly appreciated. I recall the bank robbery gunfight in California? about 10 years ago. Although it was not Dragon Skin they were wearing, whatever they were sporting worked! Dude was taking rounds from every direction and answering them in turn. Sorry, can't get link to video (no streaming at work).
Those thugs were also hopped up on go go pills. - But yeah... a headshot should have happened much sooner.

Bx3 | 09-19-2009 11:56 AM
Re: Body armor http://goldismoney.info/forums/archi.../t-340216.html As taken off of an old thread regarding BA.:coolbeer: Bx3 Quote:
Vests with Goldflex or any other hybrid laminate materials have a record of deterioration which begins almost immediately after manufacture. This deterioration is accelerated by water/humidity/perspiration (vests get hot!) and has been responsible for issued vests failing to stop ballistic threats on many documented occasions. Contact shots have also been known to burn through them (brand new vests) like butter. Stick with 100% Kevlar or Twaron which have a proven record of working after decades of wear under most environments. Kevlar and Twaron are a little heavier and are more stiff but you may as well wear something that works. Another advantage is that Kevlar/Twaron can often be found at a lower price since it is considered "older" technology. Bx3
Quote:
Unfortunately, this kind of info doesn't always make into the MSM (go figure). As of right now, the NIJ is in the process of changing it's rating standards to meet reality on the street. To quote a very respected expert on the subject, stick with 100% WOVEN p-aramids (key word being WOVEN) made from Kevlar/Twaron as laminated aramids, such as Gold Flex and others , can still technically be called 100% aramids.Bx3
Quote:
TA, I probably don't have enough knowledge to start a thread, I've just been fortunate to have access to others inside the industry who have been forthright with me. If you stick with the earlier recommendations regarding the woven Kevlar/Twaron materials, you should be good to go. A note on Dragon Skin, while it has documented saves, it has also had some serious teething problems/failures. Body armor isn't something you usually want to be a test subject for. Time will tell. A note on Interceptor, while the SAPI plates are designed to defeat rifle threats, the soft armor inserts are not advertised or rated as bullet resistant (with a caveat) . The inserts are actually designed to offer improved fragmentation protection (artillery) with an additional capability to protect against 9mm pistol projectiles (and smaller) only. Ares, a good option would be to get a concealed vest and a separate plate carrier that you could wear over the vest. This allows you to customize your level of protection to the threat and gives you greater flexibility. Polyethylene rifle plates are lighter and offer better drop durability than ceramic plates but are highly susceptible to heat damage/degradation (stored in trunk of car) Ceramic is still the preferred option for now. Body armor technology is constantly improving, unfortunately many manufacturers will not sell to civilians for liability purposes and there is no telling how long the govt will allow private ownership anyways. Just like guns and ammo, armor should be a high priority on most peoples prep list as it is likely that when you need it the most, medical services may no longer be a viable option.Bx3

AKBill | 09-19-2009 01:16 PM
Re: Body armor We use and advise IIIA under the shirt with a ceramic trauma plate for daily wear and PPD/PSD in low threat low visibility. For direct action we use plate carriers with SAPPI II plates ceramic multi hit rated for 308 AP on the front only, we put the back plate in special pockets on our assault packs so in a fire fight we can toss the pack in front of us and use it as cover. For forced entry and urban operations we advise and use full Interceptors with side plates daps and front and rear SAPPI II's plus groin collar and neck. As for helmets we advise a good ABS Ballistic for mountain/airmobile (Gentex makes some good ones) the only time we use our ACH's is urban and forced entry also for entry we add a nape protector to the helmet suspension (covers the area on the back of your neck). A great tool for entry is a ballistic shield w/gun port also get some ballistic glasses and or goggles ESS makes a great set of no fog and Oakley has stepped up on there’s and puts out a good set of glasses, Wiley X is the latest and greatest but we found the frames tend to break so if you go that rout get two pairs. Most military masks by MSA will either come with or have a way to attach a ballistic shield/ ballistic eye covers and in a chemical environment the last thing you want is the face plate on your mask failing. The military has ceramic door plate kits and those are just big rectangular plates and work for a lot more than car doors. That’s my two cents but as with most things if it doesn’t work for you don’t do it, any time you use armor of any type you are giving up mobility so weight the risks.

wallew | 09-19-2009 01:21 PM
Re: Body armor Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Money Now (Post 1929104) What would be the purpose of using it? Protection while in the community? At home/on one's property? Defense against what? Garden-variety thugs? Thugs with badges? Against pistols? Rifles? It would seem to me that body armor is best utilized by an aggressive party or by targets of assassination/high-profile mugging, not the ordinary citizen. Against centerfire rifles, even Level IV is marginally useful (the plates will crack/shatter, and multiple hits will get through). Shotgun slugs and rifles will easily defeat Level III (not all will get through, but the energy of impact makes that irrelevant). For most pistols/revolvers, soft would be effective. however; especially against the sissy calibers many garden-variety thugs use. For home use, I'd prefer designated cover, perhaps concrete walls or even purpose-deployed steel plates, over body armor.
BODY ARMOR Dear God! Buy body armor PLEASE!! Its dirt cheep in USA. Preferably, get the police concealable kind (class II) then continue to work on it and get class III A military armor and some rifle plates, just as you do when you start buying guns. You�ll end up with 2 or 3 sets of armor which are great to have for family members and spares. Just so you know, I got so desperate about body armor I ordered it from USA through internet (bulletproofme.com), I ended up paying a total of nearly 600 USD for body armor that costs 200 USD in USA. Buy it while you still can. When the SHTF you�ll end up wearing it, believe me. I don�t wear mine all day long but I do wear it when I have to go some place dangerous, deal with people I don�t trust, or when I have to go teach Architecture Representation late at night, and must travel through a much dangerous road at 12 PM. FerFAL ANY major thirty caliber MBR will turn your 'cover' into concealment in a HURRY. But while that's happening, your body armor will give you a chance to 'live to fight another day'. Please learn from OTHER'S mistakes and their experience. In this area I would much prefer to be safe than sorry. Oh, and here's a soft insert that's very impressive and pretty inexpensive as well. http://www.secondchance.com/products/trd_impacst_video.asp For $86 - http://www.opticsplanet.net/protech-...ic-plates.html Not looking to ever want to NEED it, but I'd hate to need it and just not have it. Yes, transferred energy will be a bitch, but the OTHER option is not one I want to experience. And yeah, actual body armor, not soft Level IV vests, CAN AND DO stop 30 caliber rounds all the time. With little more than bruising. You Tube
You Tube
I guess it's just my vote saying I think things are going to get worse, rather than better. As Daniel Hill says, "I HOPE I'M WRONG". But I'd still rather discuss this now and exchange information now, rather than NOT be able to and not get the chance. That's why I started this thread. I'm a firm believer of trying to be ahead of the game, not behind it.

CrufflerJJ | 09-19-2009 03:58 PM
Re: Body armor Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1929526) Oh, and here's a soft insert that's very impressive and pretty inexpensive as well. http://www.secondchance.com/products/trd_impacst_video.asp For $86 - http://www.opticsplanet.net/protech-...ic-plates.html Not looking to ever want to NEED it, but I'd hate to need it and just not have it. Yes, transferred energy will be a bitch, but the OTHER option is not one I want to experience. And yeah, actual body armor, not soft Level IV vests, CAN AND DO stop 30 caliber rounds all the time. With little more than bruising. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV0pN...om=PL&index=37 I guess it's just my vote saying I think things are going to get worse, rather than better. As Daniel Hill says, "I HOPE I'M WRONG". But I'd still rather discuss this now and exchange information now, rather than NOT be able to and not get the chance. That's why I started this thread. I'm a firm believer of trying to be ahead of the game, not behind it.
As somebody who wore a concealed vest as a volunteer paramedic for ~17 years, I would urge you to AVOID Second Chance Body Armor. Years ago, they were a reputable firm, started by Richard Davis (the guy who invented soft body armor, I think). The owner/CEO regularly shot himself in the chest while wearing his company's product. What other company's CEO was confident (??crazy??) enough to do that? Unfortunately, the company seemed to lose its "moral compass" over the years, introducing Zylon based armor to the market, as a thinner, lighter, newer alternative to the older Kevlar based vests. Second Chance Body Armor (SCBA) apparently chose to IGNORE their own test data showing that Zylon lost strength after exposure to heat/humidity over time. Those wearing SCBA Zylon vests DIED as a result of this material failure, yet SCBA continued to do the legal tap dance (it's not our fault, blahblahblah, song & dance, song & dance). Rather than have the balls to face up to the problem & recall the garbage vests, they offered added panels (adding bulk/weight to defective vests) at the EXPENSE of the vest owners. As somebody who wore a SCBA Monarch (Kevlar) vest for years & years, I'm forced to say FxCK Second Chance - they should no longer be trusted as a body armor supplier. In terms of body armor in general, I agree with Davis's premise of wearing a vest that's comfortable enough day in & day out. If you think you need a vest, choose a vest that you're willing/able to wear. Don't pick a stiff-as-a-board Level 27 tank-proof vest that will make you cook in your own juices. Pick a nice Level II or IIA vest. Something flexible, soft, and not too hot. If you're expecting trouble, then you might add plates/extra levels. For routine use, though, choose something that's comfortable enough for you to wear day in & day out, summer & winter. Just avoid Second Chance.

Real Money Now | 09-19-2009 04:40 PM
Re: Body armor Quote:
Originally Posted by AKBill (Post 1929520) For forced entry and urban operations we advise and use full Interceptors with side plates daps and front and rear SAPPI II's plus groin collar and neck.
So, for police state home invasions, which calibers and rounds penetrate those best? M855? M948? :biggrin:

Real Money Now | 09-19-2009 04:50 PM
Re: Body armor Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1929526) For $86 - http://www.opticsplanet.net/protech-...ic-plates.html
"This item is available for sale to Law Enforcement Personnel, Military Personnel, Security Guards, Correctional Facility Personnel, and other qualified personnel." Pigs don't want citizen-victims having an edge. Only those who protect the System and its goons are "worthy" of it. Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1929526) Not looking to ever want to NEED it, but I'd hate to need it and just not have it.
There are lots of things we could have for "TSHTF," but can we afford it, do we need it? For the "average" citizen, body armor does not seem to be among the essentials. Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1929526) Yes, transferred energy will be a bitch, but the OTHER option is not one I want to experience. And yeah, actual body armor, not soft Level IV vests, CAN AND DO stop 30 caliber rounds all the time. With little more than bruising.
"With little more than bruising" is very much in contention. Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1929526) That's why I started this thread. I'm a firm believer of trying to be ahead of the game, not behind it.
I understand your point and appreciate the thread, but I still stand by my position that body armor is best only for special applications, not everyone. It's good to discuss this no matter our personal position/preferences.

Juandisimo | 09-19-2009 08:24 PM
Re: Body armor It doesn't matter what kind of armor you have on if they are shooting 12 ga. slugs.

Bx3 | 09-19-2009 10:38 PM
Re: Body armor It won't stop an RPG either so I am going to sell my ba.:confused_m: And since there are people out there who still own .50 cals I think I'm going to sell all of my rifles (already did) because they can out range me and since there will still be people that have their rifles I might as well just sell all of my pistols (already did) and while I'm at it I'm just going to give up, crawl into a hole and wait for the rapture.:10_1_19:Bx3

Ares | 09-19-2009 10:43 PM
Re: Body armor Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Money Now (Post 1929104) What would be the purpose of using it? Protection while in the community? At home/on one's property? Defense against what? Garden-variety thugs? Thugs with badges? Against pistols? Rifles? It would seem to me that body armor is best utilized by an aggressive party or by targets of assassination/high-profile mugging, not the ordinary citizen. Against centerfire rifles, even Level IV is marginally useful (the plates will crack/shatter, and multiple hits will get through). Shotgun slugs and rifles will easily defeat Level III (not all will get through, but the energy of impact makes that irrelevant). For most pistols/revolvers, soft would be effective. however; especially against the sissy calibers many garden-variety thugs use. For home use, I'd prefer designated cover, perhaps concrete walls or even purpose-deployed steel plates, over body armor.
I Concur with this as well. I read on a different forum the conversation went like this. Question: Will a Level III and up protect against a shotgun slug? Answer: Will it stop a MACK truck? Probably but your chest and surrounding bones will be pulverized by the impact of a one ounce slug hitting you at around 1,200 - 1,300 fps.

Stealinator | 09-19-2009 11:07 PM
Re: Body armor I do not know what these coments are about BA not being for an average citizen. Not saying I am average, but I have been looking into it. If for nothing else, would be for hearing that bump in the night , 3 am, locked and loaded heading down the stairs, would be nice to quickly throw on a vest.

Real Money Now | 09-19-2009 11:14 PM
Re: Body armor Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealinator (Post 1930185) I do not know what these coments are about BA not being for an average citizen. Not saying I am average, but I have been looking into it. If for nothing else, would be for hearing that bump in the night , 3 am, locked and loaded heading down the stairs, would be nice to quickly throw on a vest.
If I assume there is a home invasion in progress, and any "unusual" noises inside my house at 0300 means I shall so assume, I will take correct action, including use of pre-deployed cover, to respond. Putting on body armor in such a situation would be a waste of precious seconds, and, would provide very minimal protection from likely threats (if I make the error of exposing myself to the home invader, they'll probably just shoot me in the head anyway).

Stealinator | 09-19-2009 11:25 PM
Re: Body armor Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Money Now (Post 1930194) If I assume there is a home invasion in progress, and any "unusual" noises inside my house at 0300 means I shall so assume, I will take correct action, including use of pre-deployed cover, to respond. Putting on body armor in such a situation would be a waste of precious seconds, and, would provide very minimal protection from likely threats (if I make the error of exposing myself to the home invader, they'll probably just shoot me in the head anyway).
Too each his own. Upper body is the most likley target , in the dark. Worth the 12-14 seconds . If I lived in a ranch style, maybe different story, I sleep on the 3rd floor, so unless they rush upstairs to subdue the owner, me, there is time.

Professur | 09-20-2009 12:23 AM
Re: Body armor For home invasions, or any incident on your home turf .... you're supposed to have the home field advantage. What's the point in arming yourself to the teeth, having 5 years of food and water, half a metric ton of precious metal ... and still being afraid in your own home? You're supposed to have all the advantages here. What the hell are you playing at? Did someone move the windows on you? Rearrange the furniture? Let's smarten up, guys. You're the ones setting up the firing lanes. You're the one installing blocks to ensure that the only windows that open wide enough for egress are the ones you choose. You're the one who layered the back of that couch with 5 layers of kevlar, and not the other one. You're the one who reinforced that gyproc corner with a steel place to give you a corner to fire around. If whether or not you've 12-18 seconds to pull on BA is a serious issue for you ... you've got a lot more serious issues to address first. But to own or not own BA isn't one of them. BA is important for when you're playing in someone else's yard. And you're far and away better off with lightweight BA that you can comfortably wear 99% of the time, than a medieval armour breastplate that's so obvious that you stand out like a sore thumb. Just like you're far better off with a gun you're comfortable carrying without having to think about it than a monster cannon that you leave at home because wearing it pulls your pants down around your ass.

Bx3 | 09-20-2009 01:40 AM
Re: Body armor For those limiting the validity of ba to just a home invasion, or because it may not protect you from a shotgun slug, I'm sure that the folks who stayed behind during Katrina would have given up an organ to have a vest handy. No one can predict exactly what is coming but we are all mostly in agreement about the direction we are headed. I thought most GIMers were out of the box thinkers.:confused_m: All I can say is that after having had guns pulled on me and being shot at on different occasions I gots mines and I sleep very good at night.:sleep:Bx3

Waylon | 09-20-2009 02:01 AM
Re: Body armor Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealinator (Post 1930205) Too each his own. Upper body is the most likley target , in the dark. Worth the 12-14 seconds . If I lived in a ranch style, maybe different story, I sleep on the 3rd floor, so unless they rush upstairs to subdue the owner, me, there is time.
I keep anything of value upstairs. Downstairs is for show and company. Cover the stairs. Idiot thieves can roam around downstairs looking for food all night long. If they want something more, they will have to climb the stairs. Thanx for the other replies. I got a brother-in-law who is a guard at a local jail. We are about the same size.

G-khan | 09-20-2009 02:05 AM
Re: Body armor You Tube
You Tube
You Tube
You Tube

Hi-yo, Silver! | 09-20-2009 04:16 PM
Re: Body armor I wanted to by some Point Blank BA IIIa that someone had posted locally on Craigslist here, but the guy selling it then found out it was illegal to sell to civilians. Reading what you guys have posted that seems to be the case(that would suck if Marshall Law is put in place due to a revolt- citizens=toast!)... anyone have a link to a Federal Law stating this "illegality?"

Bx3 | 09-20-2009 06:35 PM
Re: Body armor There is no federal law prohibiting civilian ownership of ba. Some states or municipalities may have something on their books although the majority do not. The reason that many companies don't sell to civilians is more about liability than law. Bx3

Real Money Now | 09-20-2009 10:07 PM
Re: Body armor Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi-yo, Silver! (Post 1930966) that would suck if Marshall Law is put in place due to a revolt- citizens=toast!
Or not. Body armor is primarily used by aggressors. In the event of Martial Law, most gun-owning Americans would know "the score," and body armor-wearing thugs (with...ahem...badges...) would be outnumbered 1,000 to 1. BA does not stop: 1) headshots 2) dorsal shots 3) femoral artery shots 4) AP or AP-like (i.e., M855) shots 5) the energy of shotgun slug shots 6) repeated centerfire rifle shots 7) Molotov Cocktails And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?...The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst; the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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