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- - Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=298766)

Ebie | 09-07-2008 07:48 PM
Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? Will a 12 Ga Shotgun slug stop an bad guy in Kevlar? Ceramic Plate Armor? Be well.

Between The Wheels | 09-07-2008 07:54 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? I believe slugs will penetrate Level III armor, not Level IV (ceramic). FWIW cops confiscate slugs if they think they might be facing them later.

buff01 | 09-07-2008 07:58 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? check the box o' truth. IIRC, a slug is too blunt to penetrate as well as a FMJ rifle round. It just weighs a lot.

Ebie | 09-07-2008 07:59 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? Quote:
Originally Posted by Between The Wheels (Post 1275880) I believe slugs will penetrate Level III armor, not Level IV (ceramic). FWIW cops confiscate slugs if they think they might be facing them later.
Even if it does not penetrate, what is the effect on the wearer of the vest? I guess that it might not be a "stopper" if wearing ceramic.

wallew | 09-07-2008 08:03 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? If you are aiming at the vest you are aiming either too high or too low. Either knees or hips. Or throat or head. All of those are 'stop shots' and should be practiced regularly. Negates the need for a slug. But that slug is roughly a .65 caliber if memory is correct. Which would do a lot of damage to any soft tissue. And will cause MASSIVE shock to the system of anyone tissue it actually hits.

stranger | 09-09-2008 02:26 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1275896) ...But that slug is roughly a .65 caliber if memory is correct. Which would do a lot of damage to any soft tissue. And will cause MASSIVE shock to the system of anyone tissue it actually hits...
.65 is probably a pretty good average, especially for sub-cal saboted slugs. Bore sized, a 12ga would be .73 cal, 20ga would run .62 cal, and of course a .410 would be .41 cal. FYI rule of thumb for buckshot, 000 runs .36 cal, 00 .33 cal, and #1 is a non standard .30 cal. I agree with you on the energy transfer. Slugs can be absolutely devastating. Dunno how they react with body armor, but I've rolled 200+lb deer ass-over-teakettle numerous times with my old slug gun. Tissue damage and wound cavitation are enormous.

DrillAndFill | 09-09-2008 02:51 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? I've seen enough imagery of cops writhing in pain after their vests stopped pistol rounds. I believe I'll let someone else volunteer for the shotgun-slug stopper test.

ruprick | 09-09-2008 03:03 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? 12 ga slugs have the same energy as 30.06 rifle....and 60% more momentum. Earlier comments - they destroy 200 lb strong deer here in Michigan. Last year my 0.72" soft lead slug expanded to 0.90" I would think a slug might penetrate a vest......if not, the energy, at least 6X a very powerful pistol, would probably still kill you even without penetration. Just my guess.

Twisted Avatar | 09-09-2008 03:11 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1275896) If you are aiming at the vest you are aiming either too high or too low. Either knees or hips. Or throat or head. All of those are 'stop shots' and should be practiced regularly. Negates the need for a slug. But that slug is roughly a .65 caliber if memory is correct. Which would do a lot of damage to any soft tissue. And will cause MASSIVE shock to the system of anyone tissue it actually hits.
Bingo! Femoral artery gets snipped and you will bleedout in less than 2 minutes. Knee caps get blowout out how you gonna walk??

eat_beef | 09-09-2008 10:13 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? Plates will definetly stop slugs and buck, soft armor most likely will. However, as stated above, penetration is only part of the story. Mack trucks don't penetrate, but they kill. A guy in Dallas popped two SWAT guys in full armor with slugs (COM), and both of them were out of the fight. They survived, but both had multiple broken ribs, a collapsed lung, concussion, etc. One was unconcious, the other stayed concious, but was a 'non combatant' for the remainder of the incident. 12 ga trumps everything inside of 50 yards.

hypervel | 09-10-2008 07:43 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1275896) If you are aiming at the vest you are aiming either too high or too low. Either knees or hips. Or throat or head. All of those are 'stop shots' and should be practiced regularly. Negates the need for a slug. But that slug is roughly a .65 caliber if memory is correct. Which would do a lot of damage to any soft tissue. And will cause MASSIVE shock to the system of anyone tissue it actually hits.
Bumpitty bumb. Unlike the Air Force, do not "Aim High"

Keef | 09-27-2008 03:46 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? Any GIMMers have any experience with 12g specialty ammo? http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/i...specialty-ammo I was looking for the 12g Centurion dual loads (buckshot/.650 ball) and I see ammo-to-go no longer has that product listed. anyone have a link to a good ammo supplier that they use? Anyone ever try the Pitbull dual loads? Right now I am stocked up with 3" 00 buck/15 pellets and would like to step up to the next highest grade ammo sold to civilians. I know some places out there sell police ammo to civilians, but can't seem to find a link today. And no need to post here, if you're a lurker that prefers privacy, but a PM would be appreciated. thanks..

Stand Watie | 09-27-2008 04:31 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? Quote:
Originally Posted by Keef (Post 1317029) Any GIMMers have any experience with 12g specialty ammo? http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/i...specialty-ammo I was looking for the 12g Centurion dual loads (buckshot/.650 ball) and I see ammo-to-go no longer has that product listed. anyone have a link to a good ammo supplier that they use? Anyone ever try the Pitbull dual loads? Right now I am stocked up with 3" 00 buck/15 pellets and would like to step up to the next highest grade ammo sold to civilians. I know some places out there sell police ammo to civilians, but can't seem to find a link today. And no need to post here, if you're a lurker that prefers privacy, but a PM would be appreciated. thanks..
Try here. http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=377126

Fullpower | 09-27-2008 04:35 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? If the bad guys are inside your house, NOTHING is as deadly and handy as a pistol grip twelve gauge shotgun full of slugs or big buckshot. the 12 Gauge pump shotgun is arguably the MOST effective close range defensive arm ever built, and you can get your very own, in any of the 50 states for around 250 dollars.

Keef | 09-27-2008 06:56 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Stand Watie (Post 1317090) Try here. http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=377126
Thanks man. I was at another forum today and there was a guy who said all he needed for a post collapse scenerio was his AK47, from that he planned on taking whatever he needed from those who had preps. I appreciated his honesty and would like to greet him with a warm welcome should he ever show up in my neighborhood. I would think a few flame throwing rounds [ http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/p...specialty-ammo ] would encourage snipers to move to easier target areas... If you are in a remote area, I would definitely be planning for a little shock and awe in your defense package. There will be plenty of sheep for predators to target, so why not let it be known with your first round that your not a sheep.

Stand Watie | 09-27-2008 07:10 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? Quote:
Originally Posted by Keef (Post 1317270) Thanks man. I was at another forum today and there was a guy who said all he needed for a post collapse scenerio was his AK47, from that he planned on taking whatever he needed from those who had preps. I appreciated his honesty and would like to greet him with a warm welcome should he ever show up in my neighborhood. I would think a few flame throwing rounds [ http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/p...specialty-ammo ] would encourage snipers to move to easier target areas... If you are in a remote area, I would definitely be planning for a little shock and awe in your defense package. There will be plenty of sheep for predators to target, so why not let it be known with your first round that your not a sheep.
I was recently looking for one of these (the Finnish RK 95 TP). http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...2_RK_95_TP.jpg Went to my local dealer and he said "You can't have one." Meaning not legal in my state. Eh, for long-range work I guess I'll just throw a scope on my .357 mag if need be.

flash91 | 09-27-2008 07:18 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? Quote:
Originally Posted by Keef (Post 1317270) Thanks man. I was at another forum today and there was a guy who said all he needed for a post collapse scenerio was his AK47, from that he planned on taking whatever he needed from those who had preps. I appreciated his honesty and would like to greet him with a warm welcome should he ever show up in my neighborhood. I would think a few flame throwing rounds [ http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/p...specialty-ammo ] would encourage snipers to move to easier target areas... If you are in a remote area, I would definitely be planning for a little shock and awe in your defense package. There will be plenty of sheep for predators to target, so why not let it be known with your first round that your not a sheep.
That is impressive. Not really anything I want going off in the living room though.

Keef | 09-27-2008 07:29 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? No, hahahaha, not good on the furniture. I had a couple of drunkin college buddies who got into a bottle rocket fight in the living room. It was funny until one bottle rocket when through a lamp shade and blew out the bulb. I think that was when I exited the house..

silverbullet | 09-27-2008 07:45 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? What does a 12 ga. slug do to body armor? After multiple tests with our firearms unit, I can tell you with certainty. With a good condition, dry (wet vests lose their integrity) ballistic vest, a 12 ga. slug failed to penetrate the vest when fire from 25 yards. The test was conducted 8 times...none penetrated. 12 ga. slugs are too blunt to penetrate a vest. That said, they would have caused massive damage, and the wounds would definitley be life-threatening. The vests were hung over ballistic gel with a shirt over it...simulating a common vest set-up. The 12 ga. slugs forced the vest into the gel, causing a blunt-force wound which averaged over 4 inches deep. Imagine punching someone really hard, and having your fist go half way through them. You're going to break a lot of stuff up. Hit the vital organs that hard, and you're going to cause death. No doubt in my mind.

Fullpower | 09-27-2008 08:24 PM
Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? It would appear that the slug wins: "The vests were hung over ballistic gel with a shirt over it...simulating a common vest set-up. The 12 ga. slugs forced the vest into the gel, causing a blunt-force wound which [B]averaged over 4 inches deep.[QUOTE] . . That is just exactly the information we needed there. Thank you.

kiwi_envoy | 09-27-2008 08:37 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? Does anyone know if you can fire 12g slug rounds from a choked barrell? Or do you need to remove any chokes 1st? TIA, Kiwi

SilverCity | 09-27-2008 09:56 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi_envoy (Post 1317425) Does anyone know if you can fire 12g slug rounds from a choked barrell? Or do you need to remove any chokes 1st? TIA, Kiwi
Cylinder, Imp. Cylinder, Skeet are best for Brenneke and Foster-type slugs. Modified to Full chokes are too tight, may result in excess pressures, higher felt recoil, and blown patterns. If you shoot without the screw-in choke in place...you may damage the threads irreparably.

Libertarian_Guard | 09-27-2008 10:03 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? I've never heard of anyone blowing the end of a shotgun off with a slug. The Slug is made of lead and the barrel steel, so the slug will conform to the diameter of the barrel. The only thing you'll notice is more recoil.

electric-amish | 09-27-2008 10:08 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? 9rds - 12 Gauge Armor Piercing Ammo$45.00http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/i...ixel_trans.gif http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/i...Eb_200x217.jpg Click to enlarge http://goldismoney.info/forums/image...Eb_200x217.jpg Click to enlargeThis is 12 Gauge Armor Piercing Ammo. This ammo contains a specially made high velocity slug that has a steel core swaged into the middle of the slug. The base of the slug is solid lead, formed into a flat surface to help punch the steel core through the target. This ammo will typically defeat steel targets up to 1/4" thick. This is a 2 3/4" round loaded to a max charge. It is safe to shoot in all 12 gauge shotguns. E-A

SilverCity | 09-27-2008 10:31 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian_Guard (Post 1317565) I've never heard of anyone blowing the end of a shotgun off with a slug. The Slug is made of lead and the barrel steel, so the slug will conform to the diameter of the barrel. The only thing you'll notice is more recoil.
I never said a slug would blow the end off the barrel. Generally speaking, if you are shooting for groups at any distance, a tight choke may throw the group off-center. My Remington 870 in 20 gauge will group 3 inches to the left at 20 yards with anything tighter than Improved Cylinder...found that out by accident. Couldn't figure out why it was suddenly grouping left until I realized I still had the modified choke in place. When I replaced it with the Imp Cyl choke...Voila, dead center in the target. Your mileage may vary...

kiwi_envoy | 09-27-2008 10:40 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? Do you need a vernier caliper to measure a choke to see what it is? I have noticed some small notches on my chokes and wonder if this is used to identify the size of the choke. Dumb as on this choke stuff and I have some different slugs that I dare not put through the shotgun until I know more. One of the slugs I have is made in Spain and it has a tipped steel point, perfectly ok to buy at the local gun shop here in Melbourne. Kiwi

SilverCity | 09-27-2008 10:58 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi_envoy (Post 1317617) Do you need a vernier caliper to measure a choke to see what it is? I have noticed some small notches on my chokes and wonder if this is used to identify the size of the choke. Dumb as on this choke stuff and I have some different slugs that I dare not put through the shotgun until I know more. One of the slugs I have is made in Spain and it has a tipped steel point, perfectly ok to buy at the local gun shop here in Melbourne. Kiwi
Yes, the smaller notches tell you the choke constriction...check with the manufacturer (ie: Browning Invector chokes: five for imp cyl, three for mod, one for full, etc.). They are also laser-etched on the outside surface of the choke--you will need to remove them to check. The larger notches are for removing the threaded choke with a choke wrench...you can even use an old brass base empty hull to screw it out. In the "old days" we used a U.S. dime to get a rough estimate of the choke. Don't remember what the "rule of thumb (dime)" was exactly, but with cylinder bore chokes, the dime would easily fit into the muzzle and with full chokes it would fit maybe 1/3 of the way in.

Infidel | 09-27-2008 11:22 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? http://yarp2.motivatedphotos.com/aut...rmy-poster.jpg

tojaktoty | 09-27-2008 11:29 PM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? Quote:
Originally Posted by silverbullet (Post 1317350) What does a 12 ga. slug do to body armor? After multiple tests with our firearms unit, I can tell you with certainty. With a good condition, dry (wet vests lose their integrity) ballistic vest, a 12 ga. slug failed to penetrate the vest when fire from 25 yards. The test was conducted 8 times...none penetrated. 12 ga. slugs are too blunt to penetrate a vest. That said, they would have caused massive damage, and the wounds would definitley be life-threatening. The vests were hung over ballistic gel with a shirt over it...simulating a common vest set-up. The 12 ga. slugs forced the vest into the gel, causing a blunt-force wound which averaged over 4 inches deep. Imagine punching someone really hard, and having your fist go half way through them. You're going to break a lot of stuff up. Hit the vital organs that hard, and you're going to cause death. No doubt in my mind.
silverbullet, what was the shotgun and make/model of the vest used in your test? and what was the length of the barrel? are you planning on conducting such tests in the future? i would love to see how the armor piercing slugs behave and can chip in to cover the cost. also, anyone know how much fps loss is expected with short barrels, ie 8"?

silverbullet | 09-28-2008 11:10 AM
Re: Shotgun Slug vs Body Armor? tojaktoty, We used Remington 870 police specials with 18" barrels. The vests were various make "turn-ins" at the end of their 5-year use cycle. Most manufacturers warranty their vests for 5 years, but we have not seen a reduction in efficiency after 5 years. In all fairness, this was not a strictly controlled "scientific" test, just something we do with a few of the vests taken out of commission. Picture a few guys with a bunch of different guns and ammo, sitting around a table thinking "Hmmmm...I wonder what THIS would do??...." That's us.

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