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NOOB | 12-02-2008 06:15 PM
Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough Texas teen with bullet in head accepts plea deal Authorities had sought to remove the bullet for evidence http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/i/msnbc/C...eo_icon_v2.gif http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/i/msnbc/C...rt/APTRANS.gif updated 12:13 p.m. ET, Tues., Dec. 2, 2008 BEAUMONT, Texas - A teenage suspect with a bullet lodged in his forehead, who made headlines two years ago when authorities sought unsuccessfully to remove it for evidence, has reached a plea deal to settle remaining charges against him. Joshua Adam Bush, 19, pleaded guilty Monday to charges of criminal mischief and unauthorized use of a motor vehicle. In return, other charges were dropped and he will be sentenced to two years in jail. With time served, he should be out shortly, his lawyer, Langston Adams, told the Beaumont Enterprise. A jury acquitted Bush in August of the most serious charge against him, aggravated assault. Prosecutors said that he had exchanged gunfire with a used car dealer after a break-in at the car lot in July 2006. They contended the slug that lodged in his forehead came from the dealer's 9 mm gun. Bush had claimed he was accidentally shot by a friend. Authorities had obtained a search warrant after the shooting, but a doctor was unable to easily remove the slug because of bone growing around it. Prosecutors eventually decided to try the case without the slug rather than try to pursue other surgical options. At least one hospital refused to participate. All sides had agreed that removing the bullet would not be life-threatening. But Bush's family and attorney said it would be a violation of the teenager's civil rights and set a dangerous precedent because a doctor would be putting the state's interest above the patient's. At the August trial, prosecutors had X-rays of the bullet in Bush's forehead, but there was testimony that suggested the X-rays were useless in proving that the slug was actually 9 mm. The remaining charges that Bush pleaded to Monday involve the break-in at the car business before the shooting there, and an unrelated shooting attempt at a high school ballfield in March 2006. Jefferson County prosecutor Ramon Rodriguez said the deal was made because any subsequent trials would rely heavily on the testimony of gang members, which would not be reliable.

Twisted Avatar | 12-02-2008 06:22 PM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough Quote:
Originally Posted by NOOB (Post 1445388) [B]All sides had agreed that removing the bullet would not be life-threatening. But Bush's family and attorney said it would be a violation of the teenager's civil rights and set a dangerous precedent because a doctor would be putting the state's interest above the patient's.
They do that anyways......... at least this time there would have been A modicum of justice attained

eyeofliberty | 12-02-2008 06:55 PM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough An idiot named Bush from Texas? Huh, what are the chances of that? :biggrin:

Prometheus | 12-02-2008 09:34 PM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough Quote:
Originally Posted by NOOB (Post 1445388) At the August trial, prosecutors had X-rays of the bullet in Bush's forehead, but there was testimony that suggested the X-rays were useless in proving that the slug was actually 9 mm.
Gee ya think? How many different calibers also have virtually the same diameter and weight as a "9mm slug". Effin idiots. As to 9mm "just ain't enough"... is that a joke? :no_ma:

EE_ | 12-02-2008 10:20 PM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough Now you've done it! :favorites21: http://www.best9mm.com/9mmballistics.html 9mm Luger Ammo Testing & Ballistics Even though the recoil of the 9mm Luger is much less than the 40 S&W or 45 ACP, you will be surprised at the results on the business end. You will now understand why the 9mm Luger was adopted by NATO, the U.S. Military, and thousands of police officers. The 9mm Luger has 35% more muzzle energy than the 38 special, 10% more muzzle energy than the 44 special, and rivals the energy of hot 45 ACP loadings. For longer distances, the 9mm Luger is flatter shooting than the 40 S&W or 45 ACP. The 9mm is no sissy cartridge. The FBI performance requirements for an ideal cartridge must have bullet expansion of .50" (1/2 inch) or more, and at least 12 inches of penetration in bare and clothed ballistic gelatin. Bullet penetration should not exceed 18 inches depth. 12 to 15 inches is considered the ideal range. The 9mm Luger meets these requirements with quality ammunition just as good as the .40 S&W and 45 ACP. The FBI test don't lie! Check out some of the videos and info links (9mm Gelatin Test Fired From Small Kel-Tec P-11 Pistol) The Golden Saber had the best expansion http://www.remington.com/products/am..._saber_HPJ.asp

RoadKing | 12-02-2008 10:39 PM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough Quote:
Originally Posted by EE_ (Post 1445766) Now you've done it. http://www.best9mm.com/9mmballistics.html 9mm Luger Ammo Testing & Ballistics Even though the recoil of the 9mm Luger is much less than the 40 S&W or 45 ACP, you will be surprised at the results on the business end. You will now understand why the 9mm Luger was adopted by NATO, the U.S. Military, and thousands of police officers. The 9mm Luger has 35% more muzzle energy than the 38 special, 10% more muzzle energy than the 44 special, and rivals the energy of hot 45 ACP loadings. For longer distances, the 9mm Luger is flatter shooting than the 40 S&W or 45 ACP. The 9mm is no sissy cartridge. The FBI performance requirements for an ideal cartridge must have bullet expansion of .50" (1/2 inch) or more, and at least 12 inches of penetration in bare and clothed ballistic gelatin. Bullet penetration should not exceed 18 inches depth. 12 to 15 inches is considered the ideal range. The 9mm Luger meets these requirements with quality ammunition just as good as the .40 S&W and 45 ACP. The FBI test don't lie! Check out some of the videos and info links (9mm Gelatin Test Fired From Small Kel-Tec P-11 Pistol) The Golden Saber had the best expansion
Wew thanks....when I started reading this thread and saw a skull stopped a 9mm I was just about ready to toss the new 9mm I just bought. Very interesting Vid's Thanks

buff01 | 12-03-2008 01:36 AM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough Quote:
Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough
Wanna volunteer for further testing of +P JHPs? Didn't think so...

flying | 12-03-2008 02:47 AM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough http://www.rrmemphis.com/op030.html

GunNut | 12-03-2008 04:11 AM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeofliberty (Post 1445424) An idiot named Bush from Texas? Huh, what are the chances of that? :biggrin:
Hold on a second there...I'm no fan of Bush myself. Also, I'm not from Texas. But please don't insult Texas, Bush 41 and 43 aren't FROM Texas. They are yankee's. GN

NOOB | 12-03-2008 06:44 AM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus (Post 1445682) Gee ya think? How many different calibers also have virtually the same diameter and weight as a "9mm slug". Effin idiots. As to 9mm "just ain't enough"... is that a joke? :no_ma:
Yes it was, I needed a catchy thread title. I do believe a 357 or a 45 are better but I carry a 9 as backup in my briefcase.

farscott | 12-03-2008 07:02 AM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough Quote:
Originally Posted by TechGuy (Post 1445600) ricochet shot or glancing hit maybe. 9mm vs skull, skull loses.
Not always true. I have seen some strange stuff, including a guy who took five rounds from an officer's P226 loaded with Remington Golden Sabers (the LE bonded variety) in the head (2) and torso (3). All were solid hits from a distance of about 25 feet, and the guy left the hospital within two weeks of the incident. The rounds that hit the torso never penetrated much as they hit a heavy coat first. The head rounds did something I have never seen with a centerfire round; they followed the skull contour like a .22 and exited. In other words, they never penetrated the skull. They tore the heck out of the guy's scalp which is what took him out of the fight. The pain and impressive bleeding finally got his attention according to the report. Samples of the ammo were sent to Remington and it came back as in spec. Draw your own conclusion. My conclusion is that there is no sure handgun round. Even shotgun rounds do not always do the job. BTW, I usually carry a .45, but I have been known to carry a 9x19.

Txkstew | 12-03-2008 07:22 AM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough We caught a 300 lb wild hog in a trap one time. I shot it point blank in the fore head with a 9mm. It fell to the ground, and started bleeding from the nose and mouth, and didn't move at all. We strung it up to butcher out, but it was very much alive. I've shot them with 22 LR the same way, and never had one come back alive like that one. Another time, I shot a deer with a shot gun using buckshot. It ran away into a thicket, where I found it laying down. I didn't have any more buckshot, so I shot it with my 9mm. It got up and moved away. I found it again, and shot it with another 9mm. It got up and ran away again. (I know, I need to work on my aim). I found it laying in water, so I guess it drowned or died of fright! When I was skinning it out, I found the 9mm hollow points right under the hide, and they had not expanded at all. Makes me wonder about their stopping power.

Twisted Avatar | 12-03-2008 07:50 AM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough Wow........ On both stories. T

Libertarian_Guard | 12-03-2008 09:29 AM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough Quote:
Originally Posted by farscott (Post 1446239) Not always true. I have seen some strange stuff, including a guy who took five rounds from an officer's P226 loaded with Remington Golden Sabers (the LE bonded variety) in the head (2) and torso (3). All were solid hits from a distance of about 25 feet, and the guy left the hospital within two weeks of the incident. The rounds that hit the torso never penetrated much as they hit a heavy coat first. The head rounds did something I have never seen with a centerfire round; they followed the skull contour like a .22 and exited. In other words, they never penetrated the skull. They tore the heck out of the guy's scalp which is what took him out of the fight. The pain and impressive bleeding finally got his attention according to the report. Samples of the ammo were sent to Remington and it came back as in spec. Draw your own conclusion. My conclusion is that there is no sure handgun round. Even shotgun rounds do not always do the job. BTW, I usually carry a .45, but I have been known to carry a 9x19.
Entered into wrong post.

Libertarian_Guard | 12-03-2008 09:32 AM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough Quote:
Originally Posted by Txkstew (Post 1446251) We caught a 300 lb wild hog in a trap one time. I shot it point blank in the fore head with a 9mm. It fell to the ground, and started bleeding from the nose and mouth, and didn't move at all. We strung it up to butcher out, but it was very much alive. I've shot them with 22 LR the same way, and never had one come back alive like that one. Another time, I shot a deer with a shot gun using buckshot. It ran away into a thicket, where I found it laying down. I didn't have any more buckshot, so I shot it with my 9mm. It got up and moved away. I found it again, and shot it with another 9mm. It got up and ran away again. (I know, I need to work on my aim). I found it laying in water, so I guess it drowned or died of fright! When I was skinning it out, I found the 9mm hollow points right under the hide, and they had not expanded at all. Makes me wonder about their stopping power.
Awesome account my friend. I hesitate to say 'story' because I'm buying it. It's not unlike how someone watches a deer get hit by a car and puts the deer into his pick-up truck, after he gets home the deer attempts to climb out and stagger around. Deer are tough critters!

ruprick | 12-03-2008 09:49 AM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough A heavy 9mm will have equal penetration to either a 40 S&W or 45ACP. Do not go for the light weight hollow points. Need to have mass for penetration. Momentum Mass x Velocity = Penetration. For any given pistol cartridge energy level....more mass will equal more momentum = more penetration. The argument is that you will give up expansion as the velocity drops off. In semi-auto I want decent penetration....so I go first round (chambered) heaviest possible weight in that caliber, then second round is a full metal jacket for best probability of good feeding...everything after that is JHP designed for maximum expansion.

ruprick | 12-03-2008 10:00 AM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian_Guard (Post 1446393) Awesome account my friend. I hesitate to say 'story' because I'm buying it. It's not unlike how someone watches a deer get hit by a car and puts the deer into his pick-up truck, after he gets home the deer attempts to climb out and stagger around. Deer are tough critters!
This past summer I shot deer (after another car hit it and busted it up but it was still trying to get up with broken legs) in the head with my little Kel-Tec 380....went in one side of the head and out the other. Lots of penetration through strong portions of the skull. It was a hand-loaded 110 Grain Lead truncated nose with half metal jacket making about 250 ft-lbs energy and nearly 1000 FPS velocity.

eyeofliberty | 12-03-2008 10:15 AM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough Quote:
Originally Posted by GunNut (Post 1446153) Hold on a second there...I'm no fan of Bush myself. Also, I'm not from Texas. But please don't insult Texas, Bush 41 and 43 aren't FROM Texas. They are yankee's. GN
True, that. They're from Connecticut, aren't they? They ARE an insult to Texas. My dad was a Texan.

reviver | 12-03-2008 10:17 AM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadKing (Post 1445807) Wew thanks....when I started reading this thread and saw a skull stopped a 9mm I was just about ready to toss the new 9mm I just bought. Thanks
If you do, please send it to me. Thanks.

B4ITS2L8 | 12-03-2008 07:09 PM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough A fellow I used to work with claimed that he had been shot at point blank range with his own 9mm pistol due to leaving a loaded gun lying around. It was an AD, not an intentional shooting by an "idiot" friend. It is debatable who was the idiot :) Anyway, he saw my disbelief and brought in x-rays the following day to prove he still had the slug in his head. He was shot in the mouth. The round knocked out a few of his front teeth and followed the roof of his mouth and stopped before hitting the nasal cavity. He had a false tooth bridge and was in his early 30's. He said that the police had kept his pistol and that he would never have a 9mm again anyway. Now he only have a 45. IMHO, ammo is THE difference in 9mm.

GunNut | 12-04-2008 04:25 AM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeofliberty (Post 1446459) True, that. They're from Connecticut, aren't they? They ARE an insult to Texas. My dad was a Texan.
Yep, I believe they are from Connecticut. I don't know anyone from Connecticut either, but I'm sure they are an insult to that state also. GN

Jaxon | 12-05-2008 11:04 AM
Re: Maybe a 9mm just ain't enough From Norberto Pietri v. State of Florida, decided on 09/29/94 by the Supreme Court of Florida: Quote:
Pietri was convicted of fatally shooting West Palm Beach police officer Brian Chappell in August 1988. The killing occurred after Pietri walked away from a work release center, burglarized a home, and stole a pickup truck. Pietri shot Chappell once in the chest when the officer stopped him after a chase of the stolen truck. ... On August 18, 1988, Pietri walked away from the Lantana Community Correctional Work Release Center. At the time, he was restricted to the center's grounds while he awaited transfer to a more secure facility. After his escape, Pietri began a four-day binge of using cocaine. He testified that during this time he committed burglaries to support his drug use. On August 22, he ran out of drugs. Driving a pickup truck he had stolen the day before, Pietri went to a house, broke in, and stole items including a 9-mm semiautomatic firearm and a .38-caliber revolver. After the burglary, a witness saw Officer Chappell sitting on his motorcycle, apparently watching for speeding motorists. The witness saw a man driving a silver pickup truck speed by Chappell, and the officer gave chase. The driver stopped after about a mile. Chappell motioned for the driver to move forward to avoid blocking traffic, and the driver complied. Witnesses testified that as Chappell approached the truck, his gun was in its holster. When the officer was within two to four feet of the truck the driver shot him once in the chest. A forensics firearm examiner testified that Chappell was shot from a distance of three to eight feet. He testified that the casing of the bullet that killed Chappell matched the casings of 9-mm bullets provided by the burglary victim. Thus, the firearms examiner concluded, the bullets had been fired from a weapon taken in the burglary.

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