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- - Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=385100)

daveman | 06-21-2009 10:49 PM
Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Hi guys, sorry for the rush, but I'm looking to buy a shotgun for home defense/defense/general purpose. It may be my only shotgun, so please let me know which kind you guys recommend. I don't need anything fancy, but a nice shotgun is nice shotgun, fancy or not. The cheaper the better, but nothing that will breakdown on me when I need it to fire. I live in California, so... Thanks for the help, guys. And if I can find it in a Big 5 or something it's even better. Something reliable, accurate, and affordable with common and affordable ammo would be ideal.

dimitri | 06-21-2009 10:55 PM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Remington 870 in 12 gauge

Bob | 06-21-2009 10:57 PM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Two main shotguns people go with tend to be the Mossberg 5xx or Remington 870. Mossberg's a fair bit cheaper, Remington's a bit nicer (though people tend to like the Mossberg safety more)...

Rebel Yarr | 06-21-2009 10:57 PM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! If you just want a shotgun to keep in the closet - go with any pump under 400 bucks. If you plan to actually go out and shoot it - go with an 870 or the mossie 500's series. Problem is 870s/500's are around 500 or more these days. If you are spending this much you might as well go with a Siaga 12 - which you can get for under 600 bucks.

Shasta Gold | 06-21-2009 11:08 PM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by daveman (Post 1780580) Hi guys, sorry for the rush, but I'm looking to buy a shotgun for home defense/defense/general purpose. It may be my only shotgun, so please let me know which kind you guys recommend. I don't need anything fancy, but a nice shotgun is nice shotgun, fancy or not. The cheaper the better, but nothing that will breakdown on me when I need it to fire. I live in California, so... Thanks for the help, guys. And if I can find it in a Big 5 or something it's even better. Something reliable, accurate, and affordable with common and affordable ammo would be ideal.
Big 5 currently has the Remington 870 on sale - 8 shell capacity: http://big5sportinggoods.shoplocal.c...id=-2089520446 If you prefer pistol grip, they have a tactical type Mossberg 500 on sale, but only with 6 shell capacity: http://big5sportinggoods.shoplocal.c...id=-2089522450 You cannot go wrong with either the Remington 870 or Mossberg 500. Check your local Wal-Mart for buckshot/slug ammunition, since it will be cheaper than Big 5, if Wal-Mart has it in stock.

Ares | 06-21-2009 11:35 PM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! What no recommendations on a Saiga 12?? Well he does live in California so might be legal to sell there anyway...

steyr_m | 06-22-2009 12:02 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! +1 Rem 870. Saiga 12 is a good Shotgun; but if it breaks, it'll be hard to find parts if TSHTF. Go for cheap, reliable, easier to find parts (plus add on parts).

Ares | 06-22-2009 12:29 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by steyr_m (Post 1780682) +1 Rem 870. Saiga 12 is a good Shotgun; but if it breaks, it'll be hard to find parts if TSHTF. Go for cheap, reliable, easier to find parts (plus add on parts).
Eh no worry there, You'd be hard pressed if you could break it. I think it has all of 5 moveable parts, 3 of them are in the bolt itself lol Here's a Russian reliability test with the saiga 12. You Tube
You Tube
Whole reason I got it was because of reliability. The ability of it to be dragged through just about anything (like the AK-47 it was designed from) and still fire flawlessly. But you do make a good point about parts, IF for whatever reason a part does go bad, you'll be extremely hard pressed to find parts as it's imported. Unless you stock up on secondary parts you may never use. So tough call.

foolsgold | 06-22-2009 12:33 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by dimitri (Post 1780594) Remington 870 in 12 gauge
+1 on the 870. Here's mine with the surefire forend weapon light. http://goldismoney.info/forums/pictu...&pictureid=281

Lars Ragnarsson | 06-22-2009 02:38 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! As others have stated, Mossberg 5xx or the Remington 870 are great shotguns. I have one of each. Living in Commiefornia could be a problem. One of the dealer shipping restrictions I've seen for California states, "No clip-fed shotguns" - which rules out the Saiga. The other is, "No defense shotguns." I would think that would rule out the Mossberg 500 versions like the Cruiser or Persuader. I don't know what California considers the Remington 870 to be. But Budsgunshop.com has them for $375, if they'll ship it to Cal. As mentioned, I'd go with a pump. But I think California has a list of firearms that are illegal to possess there, so it would probably be a good idea to check that out before you go looking for something you aren't going to find. Another thing to consider is that many hunting shotguns will take shorter defensive barrels that you can buy separately. Again, check for restrictions - and good luck!

morganchaser | 06-22-2009 02:44 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Another vote for saiga 12. -Lower percieved recoil. -No short stroke under stress. -Faster cycle rate. -Faster reloads. -More fun to shoot. -No capacity penalty for 3" rounds. -Stupid reliable. -High capacity. -Limited time offer. -Investment potential. -Faster follow up shots. It has some drawbacks too though. -has to be stored with bolt locked open to prevent top round distortion. -No last round bolt hold open. -PITA to change magazine on closed bolt. -No mag well. -AK style magazine release/change. -less streamlined. $500 buy in, with another $300-$500 or so to convert and accessorize it. If you have the money: go with the saiga. Buy a used 870/500 from some desperate chump when times get real hard if you want. That's my $.02

Shasta Gold | 06-22-2009 02:46 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Ragnarsson (Post 1780811) The other is, "No defense shotguns." I would think that would rule out the Mossberg 500 versions like the Cruiser or Persuader.
Nope. Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Ragnarsson (Post 1780811) I don't know what California considers the Remington 870 to be. But Budsgunshop.com has them for $375, if they'll ship it to Cal.
And then he needs to add tax (California "use tax" is added to all imported firearms), a transfer fee (usually $50-$100), and shipping. Might as well buy at Big 5 like I suggested. And if they sell it, it's legal.

Shasta Gold | 06-22-2009 02:49 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1780817) Another vote for saiga 12.
The Saiga 12 is an "assault weapon" according to the faggot "Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act": http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12275.php

Lars Ragnarsson | 06-22-2009 03:03 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by Shasta Gold (Post 1780819) Nope.
So you're saying Cruisers and Persuaders are legal there? If so, great! Quote:
Originally Posted by Shasta Gold (Post 1780819) And then he needs to add tax (California "use tax" is added to all imported firearms), a transfer fee (usually $50-$100), and shipping. Might as well buy at Big 5 like I suggested. And if they sell it, it's legal.
Well, Bud's always ships firearms for free. Your FFLs out there charge you that much for a transfer? And then there's a use tax? Wow, you guys must have a great social service network there with all that tax money they collect from you.... :biggrin:

St. Germain | 06-22-2009 03:05 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by dimitri (Post 1780594) Remington 870 in 12 gauge
x2. Express mag. Inexpensive and will last forever.

morganchaser | 06-22-2009 03:21 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by Shasta Gold (Post 1780820) The Saiga 12 is an "assault weapon" according to the faggot "Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act": http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12275.php
:confused_ma: Lame. :thumpdown I may have to move to commiefornia next year. :bear_cry: :bawling: First thing I'm going to do when I get there is move to Nevada. :565:

Shasta Gold | 06-22-2009 03:28 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Ragnarsson (Post 1780827) So you're saying Cruisers and Persuaders are legal there? If so, great!
Yes. Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Ragnarsson (Post 1780827) Well, Bud's always ships firearms for free. Your FFLs out there charge you that much for a transfer? And then there's a use tax? Wow, you guys must have a great social service network there with all that tax money they collect from you.... :biggrin:
Social service network? No, that money goes to enforce faggot "laws" repugnant to the Second Amendment. I found out about the "use tax" thing last year. Had a pistol imported. FFL could not complete transaction without entering amount paid of "use tax" (identical to CA sales tax).

Lars Ragnarsson | 06-22-2009 03:37 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by Shasta Gold (Post 1780839) Social service network? No, that money goes to enforce faggot "laws" repugnant to the Second Amendment. I found out about the "use tax" thing last year. Had a pistol imported. FFL could not complete transaction without entering amount paid of "use tax" (identical to CA sales tax).
Yeah, my wife was born and raised there. We're heading that way in a couple of weeks. The wife wants to show the kids the things she used to do there (the beach, Knott's Berry Farm, Disneyland) and where she used to live (Big Bear.) Then she's cleaning out her safe deposit box that her mom had kept for years and we're heading back to Florida, and she swears she'll never go back to California again....

Shasta Gold | 06-22-2009 03:59 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Ragnarsson (Post 1780843) Yeah, my wife was born and raised there. We're heading that way in a couple of weeks. The wife wants to show the kids the things she used to do there (the beach, Knott's Berry Farm, Disneyland) and where she used to live (Big Bear.) Then she's cleaning out her safe deposit box that her mom had kept for years and we're heading back to Florida, and she swears she'll never go back to California again....
Please don't stay too long; you're entering ground zero at 10 seconds to Midnight.

daveman | 06-22-2009 04:55 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Thanks for the help, guys. I'll be looking for the Remington 870 from my local Big 5, hopefully they'll have it for less than 400. I'm about to ask an incredibly nooby question, so please bear with me, men. These shotguns, especially the 870, all fire ammunition that "spreads" when they leave the barrel, right? That's the reason I'm getting a shotgun, because I've never shot anything before and have not acquired any precision yet. Something that covers a wide swath of area before the barrel would be great for me. Also, for people who have the 870, what's the effective would/kill range for that thing? 100 yards? 200? 300? Thanks again for your help, I really appreciate you guys giving me your input.

mike77777 | 06-22-2009 06:05 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! got a reaL nice stevens double barell 12 gauge on sat. from the pawnshop downtown. 180 bux out the door. full/modified choke. 5 seconds to take apart, made in the 50s or 60s, very minor wear. another possibility. 2 or 3 hundred buys lots of shells.

foolsgold | 06-22-2009 09:15 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by daveman (Post 1780875) Thanks for the help, guys. I'll be looking for the Remington 870 from my local Big 5, hopefully they'll have it for less than 400. I'm about to ask an incredibly nooby question, so please bear with me, men. These shotguns, especially the 870, all fire ammunition that "spreads" when they leave the barrel, right? That's the reason I'm getting a shotgun, because I've never shot anything before and have not acquired any precision yet. Something that covers a wide swath of area before the barrel would be great for me. Also, for people who have the 870, what's the effective would/kill range for that thing? 100 yards? 200? 300? Thanks again for your help, I really appreciate you guys giving me your input.
You need to shoot the thing and become very comfortable handling the gun. I went to a local hunt club and shot trap. $2 for every round of 10 clay targets.

ruprick | 06-22-2009 09:37 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Simple answer.....what do cops have in their cars? Remington 870's and Mossberg 500's If I could only own 1 long gun...it would be a Remington 870......in fact, it might be my choice if only allowed 1 gun period.... Also, shotguns are not some magic weapon....you still have to aim the thing. Even at 30 yards a "Full" Choke (tighest pattern)....will print 90% or higher pellet count in a 30 inch circle - and that is with light, small pellets.....probably even tighter with heavy buckshot (loads appropriate for large game = deer and humans). So, it is not a point and shoot item as shown oin TV..... Range.....birdshot = 30 to 50 yards, same for buckshot. Slugs are effective and accurate enough to kill out to 75 yards to 100 yrds (limited only due to accuracy). A specialized rifled barrel will give slugs enough accuracy to kill out to as much as 150 yards...perhaps even 200 yards for a well known load and experienced shooter with a well know gun. Again, accuracy limited...still plenty enough energy to kill out to even 300 yards. shotguns are still a pretty much 100 yards or less machine even with slugs.

FireMattMillen | 06-22-2009 09:49 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by daveman (Post 1780875) These shotguns, especially the 870, all fire ammunition that "spreads" when they leave the barrel, right? Also, for people who have the 870, what's the effective would/kill range for that thing? 100 yards? 200? 300?
Shotguns are so useful because they offer so many firing options. There are three basic categories. "Slugs" are basically very large bullets, described below. "Buckshot" is basically home and self-defense ammo. It is a shell of a low number of pellets (like 8 or 15). Effective range is less than thirty yards if you aren't an experienced shooter. "Birdshot" is similar to buckshot, but fires dozens of tiny BBs. It is used for bird hunting or skeet shooting (shooting the little orange flying things at the range). There are several different "levels" of birdshot and buckshot, so it's basically like a sliding scale. As you can imagine, the birdshot has more distribution than the buckshot, but the buckshot is more powerful/deadly. Select the number of birdshot and buckshot for what you are doing - ask the guy behind the counter at the gun store. If you get the 870, you can have a range of up to 150 yards if you get the extra "slug" barrel - it probably costs about $110. You can easily switch out this barrel with the original barrel in less than one minute. Using the slug barrel, you can use the shotgun to fire slugs more accurately. The slug barrel makes the slug twist as it is coming out of the gun, which stabilizes it and makes it more accurate.

____hoot____ | 06-22-2009 10:14 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Never shot One? Get a 20 gauge. Shotguns only have about a 1 to 2 degree spread of the pattern; they are not wonder death wands and still have to be aimmed in the right direction as there are 360 degrees around you! Much easier to control a 20 gauge. No need to buy new in your situation. Buy an "old" 20 and learn how to shoot it first[maybe 150-200$ at a pawn shop, my fine John Browning designed Savages made in the 20-30s cost me $60 and $80 back a couple decades ago]. Pass it on to another beginner when you and if you decide to go up to a 12 gauge.

gangsta99 | 06-22-2009 11:09 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! I have a Saiga 12 currently and that gets my vote also. I do want to add a Mossberg 500 to my collection someday though.

Shasta Gold | 06-22-2009 01:21 PM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by daveman (Post 1780875) Thanks for the help, guys. I'll be looking for the Remington 870 from my local Big 5, hopefully they'll have it for less than 400. I'm about to ask an incredibly nooby question, so please bear with me, men. These shotguns, especially the 870, all fire ammunition that "spreads" when they leave the barrel, right? That's the reason I'm getting a shotgun, because I've never shot anything before and have not acquired any precision yet. Something that covers a wide swath of area before the barrel would be great for me. Also, for people who have the 870, what's the effective would/kill range for that thing? 100 yards? 200? 300? Thanks again for your help, I really appreciate you guys giving me your input.
Please don't make the mistake of believing a shotgun issues a wall or cloud of death. At practical ranges, the shot will be within a circular pattern of inches. Practical ranges are under 100 yards. You must aim a shotgun, not as precisely as a rifle or pistol, but still with fairly high precision, especially at close ranges (since the pattern at the barrel is only the diameter of the barrel - it doesn't expand instantly). Within a home or under 25 years, all reasonable things considered, with a shotgun you will be the single most heavily-armed person.

daveman | 06-23-2009 01:51 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Thanks for taking the time to answer my question, guys. 20 gauge and 12 gauge is the size of the bullet, I know that. Does the 20 gauge measure wider or longer than the 12 gauge? One last question. I live in California, and I don't have a handgun permit. I was told that I wouldn't need any kind of permit or take any tests to buy a shotgun though. I can just walk in to a Big 5 and buy a shotgun, which is what I intend to do. Would the guy ask me to take some proficiency test when I ask to buy the Remington 870?

Lars Ragnarsson | 06-23-2009 02:28 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by daveman (Post 1782383) Thanks for taking the time to answer my question, guys. 20 gauge and 12 gauge is the size of the bullet, I know that. Does the 20 gauge measure wider or longer than the 12 gauge? One last question. I live in California, and I don't have a handgun permit. I was told that I wouldn't need any kind of permit or take any tests to buy a shotgun though. I can just walk in to a Big 5 and buy a shotgun, which is what I intend to do. Would the guy ask me to take some proficiency test when I ask to buy the Remington 870?
Can't answer the last question. As for the difference between a 20 gauge and a 12 gauge, it's referring to the diameter of the barrel. Think of shotgun shells as wire - the larger the number, the smaller (or thinner) the bore. So a 12 gauge is larger than a 20 gauge. Since it's a larger bore, 12 gauge shotgun shells usually have more powder, and thus a bigger kick, and will put out more pellets (or a bigger slug) than a 20 gauge. Some people advise going with a 20 gauge to minimize the kick, but others say they notice no real difference. I've been using a 12 gauge since I was a scrawny 13-year old, so it's no big deal. You'll be overwhelmed by the number of ammunition loads available to you. 12 gauge shells come in three lengths - 2 3/4", 3", and 3 1/2". For home defense, the 2 3/4" shells will do fine, an will probably allow you an extra shot in the magazine over the longer lengths. To learn about the different shotgun loads, you could do an internet search. Good luck on getting that 870. It's a great choice.

Shasta Gold | 06-23-2009 02:47 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by daveman (Post 1782383) Thanks for taking the time to answer my question, guys. 20 gauge and 12 gauge is the size of the bullet, I know that. Does the 20 gauge measure wider or longer than the 12 gauge?
The smaller the number, the larger the bore (diameter of the inside of the barrel). A 20 gauge is significantly smaller than a 12 gauge. A 12 gauge is substantially more powerful. Shotgun shells (the "bullets" - don't call them that to the experts :wink:) have pellets inside which are sized in reverse: the larger the number, the smaller the pellet (meaning more of them in the same size shell). Size 9 shot is tiny, size 0 is much bigger - size 00, slightly bigger than 0, is the usually recommended size of shot for self-defense. This is called "double oh" or "double ought" buckshot ("ought" is the old fashioned way, either works). Shot is divided into two general types, bird and buck, and the same number isn't the same size in both systems. You'll find shotgun shells in the usual lengths of 2 3/4 and 3 inches for 12 gauges. There are also longer "magnum" shells, but these will likely not fit your new 870 - DO NOT use larger than 3 inch shells unless the gun/book specifically states they are acceptable. Quote:
Originally Posted by daveman (Post 1782383) One last question. I live in California, and I don't have a handgun permit. I was told that I wouldn't need any kind of permit or take any tests to buy a shotgun though. I can just walk in to a Big 5 and buy a shotgun, which is what I intend to do. Would the guy ask me to take some proficiency test when I ask to buy the Remington 870?
1) Go into Big 5. 2) Look to see / ask if they have the Remington 870s on sale in stock. 3) Handle one, try its feel. 4) If you like it, tell them you'd like to buy it. 5) They will have you fill out a DROS form and a BATF 4473 form. You will answer the usual personal & demographic information plus various legal questions about your eligibility to buy a gun. If you have no felonies, no misdemeanor domestic violence charges, aren't eligible for Congress (meaning you are not deemed mentally defective), and similar, you're OK. 6) They will ask for your Driver's License. You will also give them a thumb print on the back of the DROS. 7) You will pay your DROS fee, the gun cost, plus tax. 8) You come back on the 11th day after purchase, and pick up your new buddy. :biggrin: If you have any questions about safety matters (how to use the safety, loading, etc.), ASK THE STAFF RIGHT THEN AND THERE. Your gun will come with a book (owner's manual) and a California gun lock (usually a cable lock to go through the action so it can't be fired). You can also download the owner's manual from Remington's website in advance, so you can have questions ready when you go to pick it up. NO TESTS required, BUT, again, ASK immediately if you need guidance on how to do the basic operations of the weapon, before you leave the store.

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AZLiberty | 06-23-2009 03:25 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! What Shasta Gold Said, except substitute Mossberg 500 for Remington 870. Actually either will serve you well, The Rem 870 and Mossberg 500 are by far the two most popular shotguns in the country for good reason. The main difference between the two is the location of the controls. The Mossberg has a tang mounted safety (on top), the Rem has the safety on the trigger guard. The other control on a pump shotgun is the "slide release". You need to hit the slide release to pump the weapon if it is cocked. On the Mossberg it is located behind the trigger guard, on the Remington it is located far forward on the right hand side. Neither configuration is "better" but folks usually strongly prefer one setup over the other. I personally hate safeties on the trigger guard, and find the Mossberrg controls easier to reach. So go to Big 5, handle both. Have the staff show you how to work both. Then wait 1-3 weeks until the one you want is on sale. Never pay Big 5 non-sale prices. Oh, and there is no such thing as a pistol permit in California.

Julian | 06-23-2009 12:10 PM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by AZLiberty (Post 1782427) Oh, and there is no such thing as a pistol permit in California.
He's probably thinking of the "Handgun Safety Certificate", which is actually really easy to get, and only costs $25. It's just another stupid law, but it's unintrusive enough that it won't prevent someone who wants a handgun from buying one. Better yet, move out of Commiefornia, like I did.

Doge | 06-23-2009 03:42 PM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Remington 870.

learn2swim | 06-23-2009 07:07 PM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Try out the FNH SLP 12ga, you'll like it.. I just like to look at mine...:biggrin:

daveman | 06-23-2009 11:50 PM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian (Post 1782801) He's probably thinking of the "Handgun Safety Certificate", which is actually really easy to get, and only costs $25. It's just another stupid law, but it's unintrusive enough that it won't prevent someone who wants a handgun from buying one. Better yet, move out of Commiefornia, like I did.
Yes, Julian, that's exactly what I had in mind. I downloaded the "material" off of the state government's website to study for the test, but haven't had to chance to actually take the test yet. I'll (hopefully) be getting the shotgun first, real soon, then I will take that test for handguns, assuming I pass, wait for them to check the background or something, then buy my handgun. I won't be asking questions about which handgun to get for my 1st, I know I'll start a civil war here with that...

Shasta Gold | 06-24-2009 12:35 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by daveman (Post 1783776) assuming I pass
If your IQ is higher than the price of the test, you'll pass. :biggrin: The test was implemented to placate leftists and collect revenue. It's basic common sense (though, admittedly, many don't have "common" sense anymore).

TomD | 06-24-2009 08:53 AM
Comparison Test says Ithica Below is pasted a comparison test done by Gun Tests Magazine May 2009 Home-Defense 12-Gauge Pumps: Ithaca, Remington, Mossberg Our team said the Model 37 Defense Gun is a better self-protection option than the hard-kicking Remington 870 Tac-2 FS and Mossberg�s �sloppy� adjustable-stock 590A1. Perhaps due to the "Obama-effect"�wherein the fear of future gun bans is driving sales�the home-defense/tactical class of self-defense shotguns is booming like never before. But we must recognize that other factors figure into the segment�s sales rise as well, not the least of which is that a 12-gauge pump-action shotgun is an effective close-quarters weapon. To wit: The M97 version of John Browning�s Winchester 1897 shotgun was the original "trench-sweeper." Widely considered the first truly successful pump Home-Defense 12-Gauge Pumps This representative pattern at right was fired from the Ithaca M37 off-hand at 12 yards using Remington #12B0 Express 2�-inch buckshot. The twelve pieces of 1275-fps buckshot produced 12 potentially lethal holes well-centered on the �chest� of our target. The large gaping hole in the lower right quadrant of the target is where the Remington�s wad blew through. It was easy to pick a winner in this match-up: the Ithaca Model 37 Defense (left) did it all for us, did it better, and did it at substantially lower cost than the other guns. The Ithaca�s well-fitted Pachmayr Decelerator pad did its job well, where the Remington failed and the Mossberg was marginal. The Ithaca was the only slide-action of the bunch that we could intuitively operate safety, slide, and trigger without breaking stockweld. It was easy to load, and its bottom ejection prohibits hulls from bouncing off of walls or doors. shotgun, the M97 was fitted with a heat shield and the M1917 16-inch bayonet for combat duty. The highly effective use of the shotgun by United States forces in WWI had a dramatic effect on the morale of front-line German troops. As a result, on September 19 of 1918, the German government issued a diplomatic protest against the American use of shotguns, alleging that the law of war prohibited the shotgun. The 5+1 capacity M97 and OO buckshot defined the fast-handling, reliable close-quarters shotgun for about 30 years, the platform of the high-capacity pump persisting through to present day. The reason to consider a shotgun for personal defense is what many combat studies have shown: the hit probability of a shotgun is roughly twice that of a rifle. For home defense, the shotgun is a quicker stopper than a handgun due to its being able to produce more wound trauma with multiple wound paths. It is considered easier to use in a high-stress situation, and minimizes wall penetration compared to some handgun ammunition. It is also economical to practice with. Number 1 Buckshot is 30 caliber; it is the superior choice as defined by the International Wound Ballistics Association: "Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2�-inch 12-gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma. In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. Also, #1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker�s body." (For further reading, consult Dr. Martin Fackler and Duncan MacPherson�s works on bullet penetration and wounding ballistics.) This match-up includes the Ithaca Model 37 Defense Gun ($469), very close to the M37 "Trench Gun" that saw action in WWII and in Vietnam; the Remington Model 870 Tac-2 FS ($692), and the Mossberg 590A1 w/Black Aluminum Adjustable Stock ($693). The Mossberg 590A1 in various configurations is currently an active service shotgun for the U.S. Military. Here�s what our test team thought about the trio: Ithaca Model 37 Defense Gun Eight Shot 3-inch 12 Gauge, $469 The tested 12-gauge Ithaca Model 37 is the high-capacity 20-inch-barreled model, able to hold seven shells in the magazine plus one in the chamber. The buttstock is uncheckered walnut, finished off with a nicely ground, black Pachmayr Decelerator recoil pad. The external metal finishes of this home-defense shotgun are Parkerized; the barrel is a plain barrel with a brass bead at the muzzle. We felt the Parkerized finish was extremely well-done and evenly applied. The walnut forearm is a big, beefy honey-dipper or corn-cob type, currently designated as a "ring tail forearm" by Ithaca. We were instantly impressed with the steady grip and control this forearm gave us. The gun itself weighs 6.75 pounds, with a trigger that was exceptionally crisp, breaking at 4 pounds on the nose. As for background, the Ithaca M37s used in Vietnam were primarily six-shot versions: the riot gun was a 18-inch barrel, the trench guns were 20-inch-barrel versions typically with heat shields and a mounting lug for the M7 bayonet. The Navy SEAL modified trench gun version lost the heat shield, but added the extended magazine to increase the capacity to eight shots. The tested Ithaca is most similar to the Navy SEAL M37 both dimensionally and in firepower capability. Unlike many wingshooting versions of the Model 37, the Ithaca defense model is not a take-down version. It has a solid frame with the barrel permanently threaded Home-Defense 12-Gauge Pumps into its all-steel receiver similar to that employed by the Ithaca Deerslayer II and III. It is a very strong system, as solid threads are obviously stronger than interrupted threads of the same length. By virtue of the bottom-loading and bottom-eject action, the M37 goes a long way toward being ambidextrous. The trigger-guard safety is set up for the right-handed shooter, but is reversible if you desire. The M37 is chambered for 2.75-inch and 3-inch shells, and is cylinder bore. The receiver is machined from an 8-pound block of steel, and its barrel is made of 4140 chrome-moly. Despite the Ithaca�s robust, all-steel construction, it was the lightest gun tested. At the range, we couldn�t have been happier with the Ithaca�s performance. We made a lot of hulls, in sets of eight at a time, using factory Remington STS loads, and a variety of our heavier reloads for function testing. We had no malfunctions of any kind, and our testers said the factory Pachmayr pad did a fine job of attenuating the recoil, and hull ejection was both positive and forceful. The Ithaca�s action was by far the smoothest and slickest action of the tested guns. Our Team Said: The Ithaca Model 37 was the best-built, smoothest, best-balanced shotgun in the test. It also had the best trigger, and it was fastest and most user-friendly to operate. It is easy to load and shoot quickly, easy to point quickly, has impressive eight-shot firepower and is pleasant to shoot despite its comparatively spritely weight. Also, it costs $200 less than the others. The Ithaca wins big on both performance and price. Remington Model 870 Tac-2 FS No. 81402 3-inch 12 Gauge, $692 The Remington Tactical with its Knoxx SpecOps pistol-grip folding stock weighed in at about 8.1 pounds. The 870�s forearm is black plastic, and the external metal parts are finished in black oxide. Its trigger broke at a reasonable 5.25 pounds. The Model 870 Tac-2 folding stock has sling-swivel studs installed on a clamp at the front of the magazine tube and at the folding-stock hinge area. This Remington features an 18-inch barrel (chambered for 2.75- and 3-inch shells) and has a six-shot magazine capacity due to the supplied and installed two-shot magazine extension. The sight on its plain barrel is a semi-silver bead attached to a dissimilar piece of metal that appears to be glued onto the barrel. The steel receiver is drilled and tapped for a Weaver-rail scope base (not supplied), with filler screws in place. In short order, our testers found the Knoxx Tac-2 stock to be an ergonomic nightmare. It is nearly 3 inches wide, making a conventional sight picture hard to achieve without mashing the side of the shooter�s face into the left metal rail and canting his head over the stock. Worse yet, the pistol grip at the back of the 870�s receiver makes easy access to the trigger-guard safety arduous. In folded condition, the stock hinges over on top of the shotgun, making it as easy to snag on clothing and other materials in folded condition as it is in the unfolded, locked-open position. The folded condition�s so-called advantage is theoretically an easy way to store this 870. To us, it makes no sense. Out of the box, the 870 Tactical action exhibited significant stickiness, enough where we could open the action and hold the entire 8 pounds of the gun by the forearm with the action open�and it stayed that way. While most pumps do tend to wear-in and slick-up over time, we felt that this 870�s action was excessively rough out of the box�particularly when compared to the Ithaca�s silky-smooth operation. The stuttering stick-slip of the action persisted. With its shell carrier flap in the way, the 870 felt slow and cumbersome to reload compared to the Ithaca. Though heavy in weight, this version of the 870 pounded us unmercifully even with 11⁄8-ounce loads�it was horribly unpleasant to shoot. We found this to be in stark contrast to Remington�s shameless ad-brag claiming, "Load them up with even the most potent magnum loads, the Knoxx� SpecOps� stocks are capable of taming even the harshest recoil." Our Team Said: Upside�the gun did function okay. But if a hard-to-access safety, snag-o-matic folding stock that fits no one, rough action, slow-loading, overweight, hard-kicking and poor-handling shotgun is a feature set you want for defense, this might be your ticket. We believe that your best personal defense option is avoiding this model of 870. Mossberg 590A1 No. 51670 3-inch 12 Gauge, $693 The Mossberg 500/590/590A1 special-purpose line has continued to grow to the point where there are some 36 variations of this theme currently available, more if you count the hunting versions. The basic Mossberg 590 pump shotgun is currently in service use by the U.S. Army, U.S. Navy and U.S. Marines. The Mossberg 590 is Home-Defense 12-Gauge Pumps Whether the Mossberg�s tactical pistol grip is used by the left-handed or right-handed shooter, the theoretically �ambidextrous� thumb tang safety is rendered inaccessible and inoperable. a more robust version of the familiar 500 series of Mossberg pump-actions that were introduced around 1961. The 590A1 has an aluminum tang safety and trigger guard, a clear upgrade from the more fragile plastic components found on many other versions. Often compared to 870 models, the 590 is considered more ambidextrous due to its tang safety, and easier to load with no shell carrier flap (a.k.a. shell lifter) in the way. Unlike the Ithaca and the Remington�s steel receiver, the Mossberg has an aluminum alloy receiver. As a practical matter, as the Mossberg�s steel bolt locks up to the steel barrel extension, so the alloy receiver it is of no great design consideration for defense applications particularly when considering the 590�s military and LE service records. It may save a few ounces and it is easier to machine, neither of which are considerations here. Out of the box, the tested Mossberg 590A1 weighed 7.75 pounds�noticeably lighter than the Remington, but still a full pound heavier than the Ithaca. The Mossberg has the highest capacity of the tested guns at nine shots (8+1). Its stock is detent-adjustable, allowing the shooter to vary the length of pull from 10.5 to 14.25 inches with six different positions. It has a 20-inch heavy-wall barrel that comes fitted from the factory with Mossberg Ghost Ring sights. After significant initial take-up, the 590�s trigger broke at 7.2 pounds, making it the heaviest trigger in this group. The Mossberg action also exhibited significant stickiness out of the box, as did the Remington, with its action noticeably the sloppiest of the three guns. Though all the rattle from the closed action of the Mossberg is just forearm and action bar slop and take-up, having nothing to do with the locked breech�none of testers liked how noisy and loose it felt and sounded. When a defense firearm comes with a pistol grip, it is only reasonable to assess how its controls can be accessed (or not) with the gun gripped by its pistol grip. In the case of the Remington, we had a safety that could not be accessed despite its proximity to the grip, and a slide release that could not be reached with the thumb or fingers of the shooter�s dominant hand. With the Mossberg, we had a mixed bag of control access. With the shotgun properly mounted by a right-handed shooter, the thumb of the right hand could easily unlock the slide with a quick flick. When mounted by a left-handed shooter, the left index finger could quickly do the same. However, a left-handed or a right-handed shooter cannot possibly access the tang safety when the shooter is gripping the pistol grip. Though a tang safety is ambidextrous, in this presentation a shooter, regardless of his handedness, cannot use it easily. As a practical matter, a home-defense firearm by definition needs to be deployed quickly, seamlessly, without conscious effort, and under high-stress and perhaps poorly lit scenarios. The user cannot take the safety off of this shotgun without compromising full control of his shouldered weapon. The adjustable aluminum stock of the Mossberg was likewise a mixed bag. The threaded tube coming out of the back of the 590�s receiver is aluminum, but the stock itself is plastic. While this plastic stock is easily set to several different pull-lengths, a good feature, it fits over the aluminum tube loosely. At the end of the plastic stock extension, there is a rubber pad that slips over the plastic butt. While offering a small amount of felt recoil reduction, it pales in comparison to a real recoil pad like the Pachmayr found on the Ithaca. The Mossberg�s pad is better than nothing and better than the Remington�s attempt, but not by much. The Mossberg comes with an adjustable Ghost Ring�sight set-up. We liked the Ghost Ring sight in the general sense, but its utility is compromised in this specific model, we feel. Once the gun is mounted and the shooter has a proper sight picture, pulling the gun more firmly into the shoulder pocket causes the orange-blade front sight to disappear. The culprit is the sloppy plastic stock that bows downward with a slight amount of increased pressure, forcing the muzzle�s orange blade to vanish beneath the Ghost Ring as a result. A variable sight picture is not something we appreciate. At the range, we appreciated the ability to load the Mossberg�s magazine with no shell carrier to possibly interfere, as is the case with the Ithaca but not the Remington. We also generally liked the adjustable Ghost Ring sights, though their value at the typically very short self-defense ranges is dubious. The standard Mossberg 500/590 platform is fundamentally sound, as the user does not have to break his/her grip, stockweld, or sight picture to use the slide release, safety, and trigger. Adding a pistol grip to the 500/590 disrupts this substantial ease of use, we thought. The catalog description of the 590 A1 #51670 as having a "6 Position Aluminum Adjustable Stock" is more than a little misleading, as we discovered. It is plastic where we come from, and poorly fitted plastic at that. It sorely needs an external locking collar to hold it in position reliably, or a few set-screws. Our Team Said: The Mossberg in its present form is usable, but we wouldn�t buy it. The stock issues overshadow the things we did like about it, which include ease of loading, magazine capacity, ambidextrous use, and Ghost Ring sights. Publishing Systems Powered by iProduction [ling] Home | Subscribe | Customer Service | About Us | Contact Us | Privacy Policy | Site Map | Links

daveman | 06-30-2009 11:59 PM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Okay, I bought an 870. Will go pick it up in 9 days. Total with taxes and background check: $440. 12 gauge, 8-shot, "security" 20 inch barrel. They actually had one that's 18 inch, I would've bought that one instead but it only held 7 shots. Now I'm looking at handguns... Probably will ask for advice soon, but not yet as I have a lot of things to deal with. Thanks for all the help and info you guys gave, I appreciate them all of them.

daveman | 07-01-2009 12:00 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! One more questions: Do ammos expire? If not, I would probably clear out the shelf at my big5 when I go pick up my 870. If ammos do expire, how long do they usually last and what can I do to extend their usable life to the max?

foolsgold | 07-01-2009 12:04 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Congratulations. Good move! Now get a bunch of ammo and shoot the thing and know how to handle it in the dark. I am glad I bought the surefire forend pictured above. Keep us posted, we all feel good when someone prepares themselves.

foolsgold | 07-01-2009 12:09 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Daveman I am under the impression that ammo does not go bad, but I am not an expert.

EE_ | 07-01-2009 12:10 AM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by daveman (Post 1795360) Okay, I bought an 870. Will go pick it up in 9 days. Total with taxes and background check: $440. 12 gauge, 8-shot, "security" 20 inch barrel. They actually had one that's 18 inch, I would've bought that one instead but it only held 7 shots. Now I'm looking at handguns... Probably will ask for advice soon, but not yet as I have a lot of things to deal with. Thanks for all the help and info you guys gave, I appreciate them all of them.
I would have gotten the 18" 7 shot, it has a better stock I think.

EireGoBragh | 07-01-2009 10:37 PM
Re: Help with first (only?) shotgun. Buying in days! Quote:
Originally Posted by EE_ (Post 1795386) I would have gotten the 18" 7 shot, it has a better stock I think.
Likewise, long ago I bought a parkerized 18" Remington police barrel for my WingMaster 870 3" Magnum....get yourself a handgun now, depending on the situation, a handgun is harder for someone to potentially grab on too VS a shotgun ....Stock up on #1 Buck, unless you're going to hunt, it's all you'll need :ok::ok:

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