Gold & Silver Forum (http://goldismoney.info/forums/index.php)
- Firearms (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=159)
- - 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=369043)

Silver001 | 04-20-2009 11:57 PM
9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the case Nordyke v. King, the 9th Circus Court of Appeals has just handed down a ruling saying that the 2nd amendment is now "incorporated". That means, its ban on infringing on the right to own guns etc., is now a ban against State and Local governments, as well as the Federal govt. See the text of the decision at http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...20/0715763.pdf . The actual language about incorporation is on Page 29. That's not the Supreme Court saying it, of course, but maybe they will be next(?). But hearing the ultra-leftist 9th Circuit saying that, is like hearing Iranian President Ahmadinejihad announcing that Jews should have a full state and be treated equally with Muslims. Even a blind squirrel finds on occasional acorn. How nice the 9th Circus found this one! BTW, what it means is: The 14th amendment was originally passed to prevent Southern states from taking away the rights of former slaves. But its language says that no state can take away any rights that ANY U.S. citizen enjoys. This has been widely misinterpreted to mean that even laws that were clearly meant to apply ONLY to the Federal government, now apply to the states and municipal governments too. A classic example is the 1st Amendment. It clearly says "CONGRESS shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or...(several other restrictions on what Congress can pass)". It was plainly meant to apply only to the Fed govt, and not to the states, which it why it names Congress ONLY. A look at history provides the reason WHY the 1st was written only for the Fed and not for the states: At the time it was written, a number of states had official state religions, and the 1st was written specifically to accommodate them; while prohibiting the Fed from upsetting those religions by declaring a "national religion" that was different from them; and banning the Fed from prohibiting any particular religion (private or state). The idea of "incorporation" is based on the (sometimes mistaken) notion that all rights described in the Bill of Rights, were originally to be enforced on the Fed govt but not the states. That notion is correct for the 1st amendment, but not for some others (such as the 2nd). And so when a court says that such-and-such amendment is now also binding on state and local governments too, that amendment is now "incorporated". It's basically a mistaken agenda. Some amendments were indeed intended to be binding on the Fed only (such as the 1st, says so in the first five words), while others were intended to be binding on ALL governments within the borders of the U.S. (such as the 2nd). And the amendments like the 1st, should NEVER be "incorporated" to coerce state and local governments, unless the Constitution is further amended to do that explicitly. And amendments like the 2nd, should never have been interpreted in the first place as though it applied ONLY to the Fed, when in fact the 2nd says the RKBA can never be infringed, and makes no attempt to confine this restriction to only the Fed govt as the 1st does. "Incorporation" is completely unnecessary. All the amendments that were intended to apply only to the Fed govt, already say so right in the amendment, and must not be arbitrarily messed with. And all the amendments that were intended to apply to ALL governments in the U.S., already say that (by not restricting which govts they apply to), so no "incorporation" is needed and never has been. Most courts choose to believe otherwise, however, despite the clear language of the Constitution. Usually the result of "incorporation" is good, though the procedure is kooky: Amendments wrongly believed to apply only to the Fed, are now declared to apply to all governments. But occasionally the result is bad. For example, state-run schools are often forbidden to teach or even address religion, though in fact the 1st amendment does NOT prohibit the states from doing so. Remember that the 1st was DESIGNED to allow the states to keep their own state religions if they wanted to. In the case of this 9th Circus Court decision, the result is good. The 2nd amendment (which has been wrongly believed to apply only to the Fed govt despite having no wording to that effect), is now declared to apply to the Fed, states, and municipalities: NONE of them can infringe the RKBA. This is what the Framers intended all along, of course, and is even what they wrote into the 2nd, more than 200 years ago. But at least it's nice that the 9th Circus court finally agrees. Now, if we can only get the Supreme Court to agree too, we might actually have something we can enforce. Or at least, we will have knocked a major leg out of the left's constant agenda to ban guns from law-abiding citizens. Recall that most gun-control laws are state and local laws; only a few are Federal. If we can finally persuade people that the 2nd prohibits states and local govts from restricting guns, it will be a major step forward. Who cares if they used the "wrong" method to get to the right result? http://www.city-data.com/forum/polit...amendment.html

Big_Rob | 04-21-2009 12:16 AM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated This is great news if im reading it right. http://www.maxfreak.com/diablo3/wp-c...FrozenOver.jpg

Goldhedge | 04-21-2009 01:19 AM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated You read it right. Just heard it on Lou Dobbs. He said the 9th Circuit is a liberal, if not the most liberal, court out there and that having an armed populace will assure no invasion from outside sources. This is great news. It should stop States and Feds from restricting the private ownership of guns....

Matt-themaddog-Dollar | 04-21-2009 02:01 AM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated Bravo!!! Alan Gura, the lawyer who won the Heller case, gave a talk at my school and he said that once the 2nd amendment becomes incorporated, all restrictions and taxes on guns and ammo can be challenged. He said that the criteria for whether or not a gun is protected is a "common use" test, which means that if a gun is commonly used, it is protected under the second amendment. (*AR-15's are good to go under that standard, because they are definitely commonly used.) Unfortunately, he also said that full autos would probably continue to be restricted because they are not commonly used. I just hope that the �bama administration doesn't pass an AWB anyway, because they know that it would take years for it to be overturned in the courts.

Pounces On Ounces | 04-21-2009 03:04 AM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated Expanding The Second Amendment?April 21st, 2009 | By: Jason Arvak In the aftermath of the ruling by a federal court that the Second Amendment does in fact include an individual (as opposed to merely a collective) right to keep and bear arms and therefore that a District of Columbia law was unconstitutional, the reach of the Second Amendment was expanded again today by a Ninth Circuit ruling the �incorporates� the Second Amendment into the 14th Amendment, thus making it binding on the states as well as on federal territory like D.C. Long the shibboleth of a certain brand of libertarian activists, individual gun ownership has largely retreated from the public mind as an important issue within conservatism. There seems little ground to question the Constitutional foundation � claims by liberals that the Second Amendment was only referring to National Guard units controlled by state governors was contradictory to the plain meaning of the Constitutional text as well as the statements regarding it by the Founders. In spite of this, however, most moderates and centrists found the whole issue a bit�dated. Eager quotations of Thomas Jefferson to the effect that individual gun ownership would facilitate a periodic violent insurrection against the government served mostly to make gun advocates appear a bit weird and scary and, more to the point, to obscure more relevant arguments about self-defense in high-crime areas. Nonetheless, in spite of a long period of rhetorical ineptitude, the Ninth Circuit opinion represents a major victory for the pro-gun position. And while it is a bit weird to see conservatives cheering the notoriously flaky Ninth Circuit (the same circuit that struck down the Pledge of Allegiance until overturned by the Supreme Court in a case promoted by a blatant attention-seeker posing as a concerned father), if the case is upheld on appeal to the Supreme Court, it might well have the effect of overturning a broad range of gun restrictions nationwide. http://www.poligazette.com/2009/04/2...omment-page-1/ :565:

Matt-themaddog-Dollar | 04-21-2009 04:30 AM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated "Pounces on Ounces" -- awesome name! :ok:

Glass | 04-21-2009 05:05 AM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated I smell a rat. Not sure what colour or how big but I think this is another trick..... whats that saying when the other team runs right around your defences and makes a goal.

Agfinger | 04-21-2009 05:52 AM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated SCOTUS never and I mean, NEVER agree with the 9th Circuit... They are the most overrulled circuit in the US court system.... Having the 9th circuit agree with something is a long way from SCOTUS agreeing or even granting certiori. I also means nothing outside the 9th Circuit except as persuasive law.

gbgunner | 04-21-2009 06:35 AM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated I say don't get your hopes up. Gun owners are being lulled into complacency. Soon most gun owners will be asleep. Obama/Holder say they aren't going to do a ban, the 9th decision, etc. They can't win if we are whipped up into a frenzy over a ban. So they will wait until we are comfortable and gun control fears are off our radar. Plus there's still the lack of ammunition and components issue we have to get over.

freetx | 04-21-2009 09:43 AM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated This is a mixed blessing - you must read between the lines to understand "the other side of the coin" While it is on the surface, great for gun ownership - the method that they used to enforce this is a further violation of 'states rights'. They are basically utilizing the 14th Amendment, which in effect redacts the power of the 9th and 10th Amendments to enforce this. This only makes the 14th Amendment more powerful, thus more likely that the Federal Government will continue to violate states rights at will.

sky | 04-21-2009 10:03 AM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated Never ever trust the 9th circuit court of appeals esp. on conservative issues. Clever people these liberal, tax crazy, insane creatures.

Silver001 | 04-21-2009 01:17 PM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated Obama is going to the Transworld route, by signing treaties with the IMF and Europeian Union that will ban guns for the average citizen. Watch the left hand as the right hand keeps you distracted. by kicking it up to the back rooms of the United Nations treaties are not brought to light until they are almost ready to be inacted.

AurumAg | 04-21-2009 01:32 PM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver001 (Post 1687692) Obama is going to the Transworld route, by signing treaties with the IMF and Europeian Union that will ban guns for the average citizen. Watch the left hand as the right hand keeps you distracted. by kicking it up to the back rooms of the United Nations treaties are not brought to light until they are almost ready to be inacted.
Roger that! For "playbook" policies and procedures, look no further than Barry Soetero's buddy Hugo Chavez and the gun policies of Venezuela and Cuba. Individual rights are enforced by individuals.

Twisted Avatar | 04-21-2009 01:44 PM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver001 (Post 1687692) Obama is going to the Transworld route, by signing treaties with the IMF and Europeian Union that will ban guns for the average citizen. Watch the left hand as the right hand keeps you distracted. by kicking it up to the back rooms of the United Nations treaties are not brought to light until they are almost ready to be inacted.
DAM DID YOU EVER NAIL IT!!!!

eCONoMISSED | 04-21-2009 04:59 PM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated excerpt from page 29, of the 9th Circuit Court's Ruling Quote:
[12] We therefore conclude that the right to keep and bear arms is �deeply rooted in this Nation�s history and tradition.� Colonial revolutionaries, the Founders, and a host of commentators and lawmakers living during the first one hundred years of the Republic all insisted on the fundamental nature of the right. It has long been regarded as the �true palladium of liberty.� Colonists relied on it to assert and to win their independence, and the victorious Union sought to prevent a recalcitrant South from abridging it less than a century later. The crucial role this deeply rooted right has played in our birth and history compels us to recognize that it is indeed fundamental, that it is necessary to the Anglo-American conception of ordered liberty that we have inherited. We are therefore persuaded that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment incorporates the Second Amendment and applies it against the states and local governments.
Even more interesting is Judge Gould's concurring opinion published in the ruling on page 42: Quote:
That we have a lawfully armed populace adds a measure of security for all of us and makes it less likely that a band of terrorists could make headway in an attack on any community before more professional forces arrived. Second, the right to bear arms is a protection against the possibility that even our own government could degenerate into tyranny, and though this may seem unlikely, this possibility should be guarded against with individual diligence.

Argentsum | 04-21-2009 06:45 PM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated Something seems strange... http://i.treehugger.com/images/2007/...ing%20pigs.jpg

morganchaser | 04-21-2009 06:52 PM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated Quote:
Originally Posted by Glass (Post 1687153) I smell a rat. Not sure what colour or how big but I think this is another trick..... whats that saying when the other team runs right around your defences and makes a goal.
They are either tossing a softball to the SCOTUS in order to intentionally get the bad precedent set, or they are trying to turn Gun Control in to an even bigger wedge issue like Abortion became with Roe v. Wade. States rights!

Silver001 | 04-21-2009 09:21 PM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated This will be heading to the Supreme Court I'm sure. The 2nd circuit court ruled in the exact opposite way. Second Circuit Holds Second Amendment Not Applicable to States The Second Amendment guarantee of the right to bear arms does not apply to override state firearms bans, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit declared Jan. 28. Under the incorporation doctrine, only certain provisions of the Bill of Rights apply to the states, and the Second Amendment is one of those that does not, the Second Circuit held (Maloney v. Cuomo, 2d Cir., No. 07-0581-cv, 1/28/09). So, now it MUST be heard by SCOTUS. When you have two circuit courts at odds the Court is compelled to resolve the differences.

gbgunner | 04-21-2009 10:31 PM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated Anybody watching Greta Van Susterns hit piece on US guns going to Mexico right now? Wow. This is just horrible journalism.

RaccoonRiverRadical | 04-21-2009 10:42 PM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated Why this gratuitous affront to the truth in an otherwise good thread? Quote:
But hearing the ultra-leftist 9th Circuit saying that, is like hearing Iranian President Ahmadinejihad announcing that Jews should have a full state and be treated equally with Muslims.
Yeah, those Israelis, they are so kicked around.

MetalMoney | 04-22-2009 12:37 AM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated Why is the URL to the 9th dead now? http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...20/0715763.pdf Did they change their minds?

buff01 | 04-22-2009 02:13 AM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1688136) They are either tossing a softball to the SCOTUS in order to intentionally get the bad precedent set, or they are trying to turn Gun Control in to an even bigger wedge issue like Abortion became with Roe v. Wade. States rights!
Since the defendant lost, there will be no appeal to the supremes if I understand the situation correctly.

mayhem | 04-22-2009 07:50 AM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalMoney (Post 1688623) Why is the URL to the 9th dead now? http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...20/0715763.pdf Did they change their minds?
I'll post a copy of the decision here ar GIM. See attached file.

Agamemnon | 04-26-2009 10:48 PM
Re: 9th Circus Court of Appeals: The 2nd amendment is now incorporated "Incorporation" of the 2nd Amendment places it under Statutory Law (political whims of the CONgress) to all 14th Amendment - U.S. citizens, including those incorporated entities that "Reside" within any of the several states. Ever claim to be a "U.S. citizen" ... ? Checkmate.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:48 AM. |

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright = None use it and Link to GIM