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AurumAg | 11-30-2009 05:49 PM
Open Carry and Situational Awareness This thread pertains to situational awareness, and more specifically, the need to be constantly alert and vigilant while openly carrying a firearm. The recent shooting of 4 Lakewood WA LEOs vividly demonstrates this necessity for vigilance, and although the intention of this thread is not to dwell on this particular shooting incident, it does pose as a reminder that openly carrying, especially while advertising (uniform and police cruiser), and in a location which is very public, poses a risk. Example: While serving as an Army MP on active duty, while in uniform, I was very rarely NOT only armed, but cocked, locked and ready to rock. Alert levels were high at all times due to the nature of my job. When I left active duty and joined the reserves, we only had access to live ammo on range days, and this was heavily controlled (I typically served as Range NCO for the Company). However, most monthly training involved light weapons bearing, 1911 and M-16, but with no ammo. Very early on, I would always carry one loaded 20 round mag of 5.56 for each of my troops, which became a challenge to hide once I inherited a squad, and during my brief stint, prior to ETS, as a Platoon Sergeant, I required each of my Squad Leaders to do the same for their troops. My rationale for taking such a risk (reduction in grade to E-0 and loss of command) being that anyone outside of my armed, uniformed Military Police unit might assume that we were locked and loaded, and might act accordingly, or might know that the typical reserve soldier would NOT be bearing ammo, and might attempt to steal our weapons and equipment. Although a certain level of such situational awareness applies on a daily basis even when blending with the populace and not appearing overtly armed, it is imperative for anyone in uniform, or who is known to be armed (Detective, CCW holder), to display high alertness at all times while in the public domain. IMO, and this is based upon my observations of local LEOs over the course of many years, most let their guard down while in the presence of other LEOs, almost as if the group itself, while together, serves as a wall of protection, even though no one within that group appears to be paying any attention to basic tactical awareness techniques (back to the wall, perimeter eyes, not bunching-up, etc.). Based upon these personal observations, as well as the preliminary reports regarding the Lakewood shooting, the alleged perpetrator had easy pickings. Stay alert! Stay alive!

Brent H | 11-30-2009 06:01 PM
Re: Open Carry and Situational Awareness A situtational awareness of governors (Mike Huckabee) that allow criminals to roam freely, is very important to maintain.

goldgun | 11-30-2009 06:51 PM
Re: Open Carry and Situational Awareness Very good point AurumAG. Situational awareness can also keep you out of trouble too.

Bx3 | 11-30-2009 09:16 PM
Re: Open Carry and Situational Awareness Here is a question for the open carry aficionados here at GIM. First let me state that my personal observations are as follows; while I believe in the strategic right to open carry, the tactical aspects leave much to be desired.......like to the point of being ludicrous, so that being said................ do you think in this particular case that four inconspicuous detectives (plain cloths/concealed weapons/unmarked cars) would have been targeted? A simple yes or no answer will do.bancha Bx3

GoldBuyer123 | 11-30-2009 09:43 PM
Re: Open Carry and Situational Awareness Better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6.

moreair | 11-30-2009 10:01 PM
Re: Open Carry and Situational Awareness If someone wants to walk up behind you and shoot you in the head, it's just going to happen. Example: Soldiers have a very high situational awareness in Iraq, and they still get killed by bullets. Example: Seattle cops. Having said that, I think you can increase yous odds of surviving, but if someone really really really wants you dead, you are likely going to end up dead at some point. My point is, don't make someone want to make you dead. IMO

Merlin | 11-30-2009 10:28 PM
Re: Open Carry and Situational Awareness When I was taking my NRA approved firearms class, the instructor (Deb), who owns the gun range in Hammond, IN on Kennedy Ave., made a point of telling us that we make targets of ourselves if we open carry. Should we choose to open carry, bad people may choose to "call our bluff" and then we will have to "put up or shut up." I know that there are those here who will respond, "Make my day." Under most circumstances, I think that concealed carry is a better choice.

mick silver | 11-30-2009 10:40 PM
Re: Open Carry and Situational Awareness Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldBuyer123 (Post 2052151) Better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6.
that what my dad alway said

AurumAg | 12-01-2009 04:09 PM
Re: Open Carry and Situational Awareness If there were a singular point to my post: Those who neither openly advertise LEO affiliation (read: uniforms), nor openly carry firearms are at a greater strategic/reactionary advantage than those who wear the gun and blue suit in the public forum. I prefer to "blend-in", regardless of my environment. Call it situational camouflage, if you will.

Prometheus | 12-01-2009 04:18 PM
Re: Open Carry and Situational Awareness Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin (Post 2052245) When I was taking my NRA approved firearms class, the instructor (Deb), who owns the gun range in Hammond, IN on Kennedy Ave., made a point of telling us that we make targets of ourselves if we open carry. Should we choose to open carry, bad people may choose to "call our bluff" and then we will have to "put up or shut up." I know that there are those here who will respond, "Make my day." Under most circumstances, I think that concealed carry is a better choice.
Wow, I never knew we were so close. I open carry often, maybe 20% of the time (down from 75% just a year or two ago). Never had anyone try and "call my bluff". I try to OC at gas pumps, gets the punks to turn their bass music down :biggrin: No, I don't think had the 4 dead cops been concealed and unmarked it would have bene any different. Unmarked cars are just as easy to spot to those who look for such things. Cops have a 'look'. Yeah I said it. While you might not be able to guess which lone diner was a cop, 4 of them would stand out like a sore thumb. If someone wants to kill/murder, Open or Concealed carry matters not. You are dead. OC deters a lot of crimes. Most criminals don't want to escalate their crime to murder. Rob a store and no one cares after an hour. Murder someone in the process and they actually try to find the badguy... for a few days anyway. OC, like CC has a place. I'll continue to do both as my mood, attire and location allow.

mtnman | 12-01-2009 07:22 PM
Re: Open Carry and Situational Awareness Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx3 (Post 2052101) Here is a question for the open carry aficionados here at GIM. First let me state that my personal observations are as follows; while I believe in the strategic right to open carry, the tactical aspects leave much to be desired.......like to the point of being ludicrous, so that being said................ do you think in this particular case that four inconspicuous detectives (plain cloths/concealed weapons/unmarked cars) would have been targeted? A simple yes or no answer will do.bancha Bx3
There's no such thing as an "Unmarked Police Car" or a "Plain Cloths Cop" Most aware people can spot an unmarked cop car and pick out the cops in a crowd. Yes, criminals are not the smartest people around but most of them are aware. Sorry your question can�t be answered with a simple yes or no.

Matt-themaddog-Dollar | 12-01-2009 07:29 PM
Re: Open Carry and Situational Awareness I'd say that if the cops were in plain clothes, and had plain cars (not obvious Crown Victorias or Impalas), that their odds of being killed would have been far less. Even if the killer was 90% certain they were cops, being in plain clothes would have caused him to hesitate and perhaps wait a few hours until he could find a uniformed cop to kill.

Operation Grief | 12-01-2009 07:33 PM
Re: Open Carry and Situational Awareness Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt-themaddog-Dollar (Post 2054079) I'd say that if the cops were in plain clothes, and had plain cars (not obvious Crown Victorias or Impalas), that their odds of being killed would have been far less.
In the late 1980s it was Grand Nationals. Great car but still easy to spot.

Mantokir | 12-01-2009 08:29 PM
Re: Open Carry and Situational Awareness Quote:
Originally Posted by Operation Grief (Post 2054090) In the late 1980s it was Grand Nationals. Great car but still easy to spot.
A little while back, they started using Mercury Marauders where I live. The only problem with that was that there were only 3 in the entire city. Civilian and police owned.... Other than the fact that they're so rare, they were pretty good cover. :-)

flying | 12-01-2009 09:44 PM
Re: Open Carry and Situational Awareness Quote:
Originally Posted by AurumAg (Post 2053729) Call it situational camouflage, if you will.
I like it:wink:

Bx3 | 12-01-2009 11:29 PM
Re: Open Carry and Situational Awareness Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 2054071) There's no such thing as an "Unmarked Police Car" or a "Plain Cloths Cop" Most aware people can spot an unmarked cop car and pick out the cops in a crowd. Yes, criminals are not the smartest people around but most of them are aware. Sorry your question can’t be answered with a simple yes or no.
I see your point MM. In my neck of the woods however, many of the unmarked cars are truly unmarked (probably asset seizure) and no, you would not recognize them or the officers as LE. Everywhere is probably a little different. I would imagine that the smaller the town, the harder it is for them to blend in so to speak. Bx3

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