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- - The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=274744)

Caligula | 06-16-2008 10:59 PM
The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson By Chuck Hawks http://www.chuckhawks.com/smith-wesson_dark.htm AUTHOR'S PREFACE I've never had any particular desire to do an article about the dark side of Smith & Wesson, but it's time someone in the outdoor media called a spade a spade, so to speak, rather than sugar-coat it as a "manual digging implement." I'm sure that I will be accused of all sorts of bias after speaking out in this article, but the fact is that I have no personal motive, nor do I stand to profit in any way, from an S&W hit piece. Quite the contrary, as I will undoubtedly alienate some readers and a large potential advertiser. Frankly, I don't like to write negative reviews, which is why I have usually declined to review Smith & Wesson products. But too many readers have written asking why I haven't reviewed S&W firearms, or asking if I recommend various S&W models. Guns and Shooting Online readers expect, and deserve, the truth--or at least an informed opinion. So here goes . . .. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Of all the big American firearms manufacturers, S&W is--in my opinion--the most deserving of censure. Certainly not because they make guns, nor are their products unsafe when used as directed. But Smith & Wesson's corporate actions over the decades of their existence have often been questionable. This is a company whose conduct and product quality has far too often failed to meet acceptable standards. Example: I once inspected a shipment of Smith & Wesson .22 Masterpiece target revolvers sent to the sporting goods department of a large mass merchandiser. Those half dozen revolvers were so poorly made that the gap between cylinder face and forcing cone varied widely as the cylinder was turned. At one position or another the face of the cylinder would actually drag against the forcing cone. One or two of those revolvers were so far out of spec that the cylinder could not be rotated all the way around. One such gun I could understand somehow slipping by quality control, but a whole shipment so poorly made that even a cursory inspection would have revealed the problem? Obviously there was no quality control inspection before those new revolvers were shipped. Example: On another occasion a friend and I inspected perhaps a dozen newly arrived S&W revolvers at a gun shop and found large gaps between the cylinder crane and frame in all of them. On the same guns the cylinder ratchet notches were so poorly machined that no two were identical; it looked like a drunken monkey had done the work. Again, a single defective revolver would be understandable--mistakes happen--but a whole shipment of lemons is impossible to explain as an isolated mistake. Example: I purchased a brand new Chief's Special .38 Special revolver. At the time of purchase the store clerk gave me a box of Smith & Wesson brand .38 Special factory loaded cartridges. (In those days S&W marketed ammunition under their brand name.) After firing no more than half of that first box of ammunition, I noticed that all 5 chambers of the cylinder had developed a slight bulge. Presumably it had not been properly heat-treated. Thank goodness I noticed the problem before the revolver blew-up in my hand. Example: A Guns and Shooting Online staff member purchased a brand new S&W 22/32 Kit Gun whose rear sight could not be adjusted far enough laterally to put bullets into the target at 25 yards. Upon close examination with a straight edge we found that this revolver's frame was actually machined in a slight curve. Clearly no one had test fired this revolver at the factory. Example: Another Guns and Shooting Online staff member purchased a new S&W Model 41 target pistol. It has never shot particularly tight groups, even after having been rebarreled (at the owner's expense!). And it regularly malfunctions. He has put over twice the pistol's (considerable) original cost into it trying, with marginal success, to correct its faults. You can believe that next time he will buy a Ruger, Browning, or High Standard target pistol. Such examples are far too numerous and widespread. It is widely known by many "old timers" that design, quality, and quality control problems have been endemic to Smith and Wesson firearms for decades. Years ago too many customers complained that the .44 caliber "N" frame revolver was too heavy and bulky for the .357 Magnum cartridge. (That is the frame size on which Smith & Wesson originally built their .357 Mag. revolvers.) So, they started building .357 revolvers on their smaller .38 Special "K" frame. These revolvers quickly developed a reputation for vicious recoil and shaking themselves apart. Smith's "solution" was to recommend practicing with .38 Special ammunition and reserving .357 Magnum cartridges only for "duty" purposes to extend the life of their revolvers! Ahem, doesn't that sound like a tacit admission of a fundamental problem in a Magnum revolver? The Smith & Wesson "L" frame revolvers are the same size as a Colt Python. ("L" frame revolvers will fit perfectly in holsters formed for the Python.) They even have the Colt full-length barrel under lug and a rib on top. This is because Smith simply copied the Colt Python's frame size and styling clues, which is only one of many examples where S&W has simply stolen someone else's good idea. Does the Sigma pistol come to mind? (Glock sued S&W over that one.) Or their cheesy High Standard .22 clones? Even their famous Chief's Special revolver originated as a lower cost knock-off of the Colt Detective Special .38 snubby. S&W built the Chief's Special on their existing .32 caliber "J" frame. That frame was actually too small for the .38 Special cartridge, but rather than introduce a new, properly sized frame, S&W merely reduced the cylinder capacity to 5 cartridges. The resulting revolver was so weak that for decades the use of .38 Special High Speed (and later +P) cartridges was prohibited. Modern metallurgy and heat treating has supposedly cured the problem--if you trust Smith & Wesson advertising. S&W has been ripping off other companies' products, especially Colt's, for over 150 years, and the leopard hasn't changed his spots. The current management is following in the footsteps of their predecessors, as evidenced by the recent introduction of their "new" 1911 auto pistol. Not only are they copying the famous Colt/Browning pistol, they aren't even making their knock-off themselves; it is assembled largely from after market parts. Smith & Wesson is not a tiny shop assembling these pistols individually. They are the largest handgun maker in the world! Have they no pride? (A rhetorical questions, since they obviously don't.) S&W is a huge print advertiser, and that has made them a "holy cow," insulated by the press from the consequences of their actions. Or, in the case of the Smith & Wesson/Clinton Administration sell-out (creating what some called "Clinton & Wesson"), forgiven as soon as they (again!) changed their management team. That unholy deal was widely condemned by other gun manufacturers. A press release from the National Shooting Sports Foundation said that the agreement "violates trust for selfish ends." It was neatly summed-up by Elizabeth Saunders, CEO of American Derringer, who said: "In all the years I have been in business, I have never seen anything so blatantly un-American as that agreement. No reasonable business person could possibly sign this thing." Smith & Wesson deserved, and got, a grass-roots boycott of their products for selling out the other gun makers, their own dealers(!), and all American gun owners. I've lost count of how many times the S&W management team has changed during my lifetime, every time promising that things would improve. But the basic company policy of ignoring the intellectual property rights of others and building cheaper knock-off's of other people's successful products has never varied. And their quality control has remained in the tank for decades. Heck, the company was founded on the basis of someone else's patent. (The reason that S&W cylinders have always rotated "backward" [out of the frame] is simply to create an obvious difference from the Colt revolver mechanism.) S&W has gotten a pass from the big outdoor media since the 1950's. The legendary unreliability of Smith & Wesson's traditional double-action auto pistols was widely known within the industry, but seldom mentioned in print by the outdoor press. (American Handgunner being the sole exception that comes to mind.) A good example of the "bye" that S&W has always gotten from the outdoor media is the fact that most shooters don't even know about the short cuts, rip-offs, and problems cited in this article. As I write these words, S&W is busy producing their knock-offs of Glock, High Standard, and Colt/Browning designs, and Walther pistols by agreement with the German parent company. Enough is enough; Smith & Wesson's history of quality control problems and as a corporate copycat is too long, and too nauseating, to delve into farther. Anyway, you've got the picture. Copyright 2007 by Chuck Hawks. All rights reserved.

JJ_ | 06-16-2008 11:49 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks :applause_ Guy's got balls - I've been hearing mutterings about S&W for some time as have many others. "They just dont make 'em like they used to." My Fatherinlaw tried to talk me into buying one when I was considering my first handgun. He has an old S&W .38 special that'll squash a fly at 50 yards - and that's what he based his experience on. That gun is 35 years old. It may pass to me one day - but that will be the only S&W I ever own. Funny how you read the gun rags and watch gun toob and they all rave about S&W... I'm glad somebody finally said it.

wallew | 06-17-2008 04:38 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Most S&W's made prior to 1965 are pretty good. Then the management made 'budgetary considerations' changes to allow them to make more money. STUPID BEAN COUNTERS. People wonder why my wife and I only purchase Taurus and Rossi handguns (.357's) instead of the S&W's I used to own. He doesn't actually address the selling of the company, it being run into the ground by the British firm Thompson and then their HUGE loss at selling the company because they didn't understand their market. Plus the author doesn't address the new S&W. Not disagreeing with ANYTHING he says, it's just not complete. Both of the things I mention are true. And would have no real impact, positive or negative, on the article as a whole.

Twisted Avatar | 06-17-2008 04:49 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Wow............ I GOT A REAL EDUCATION WITH THAT ONE..... Hat tip for posting. T

Caligula | 06-17-2008 04:56 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1150847) Hat tip for posting. T
Back at ya.....:wink:

SLV>GLD | 06-17-2008 05:09 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Thanks for the article. I was about to spring for a Lady smith .357 for my wife and I will now be going back to the drawing board. FWIW, I have a Browning BDA-380 (mfg by Beretta) that seems to be the very epitome of fine gun craftsmanship. It's a bit bulky to pack, though (I'm a little dude).

SilverSalmon | 06-17-2008 05:11 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Hell, I was looking for a .44 revolver or .45 revolver ( rare) back up to my XD. Any recommendations given the post?

SLV>GLD | 06-17-2008 05:16 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks My friend has one of those Taurus titanium framed .45s. It is a very nice piece.

reformed wastrel | 06-17-2008 07:21 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks To me, that article is a load of crap. But I admit I'm a S&W fan, so I'm biased. So I won't try to argue. Here's a couple of links to some threads over at TheHighRoad.org, where quite a few folks more knowledgeable than I am, responded to that same article: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=367855 article referenced in post #5, responses start around post #9 http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=321390 thread specifically about that article

Prometheus | 06-17-2008 07:32 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Most of the people at THR take the site name way to seriously and it's highly unlikely for you to take anything opinionated like this and find anything resembling clear or level headed objective opinions. S&W has gone thru some insane times, most of it due to foreign ownership. S&W was a great company. At the moment, some changes are going on with their M&P lines and they are even making "evil AR's". The S&W of 35 years ago is not the same S&W of 10 years is not the same S&W of today. I own 1 S&W at the moment 642 airweight, great gun. I also have on back order, a 5.45x39 AR upper. I'm about as big a fan of S&W's politics as I am of rugers. But we don't see this author bashing "lo-cap bill" do we? Take it with a grain of salt.

____hoot____ | 06-17-2008 08:57 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Me? All I've got is a 50 year old H&R 22 wheelgun that cost me a whole $60 in a pawnshop 25 years ago. Long guns is a different story:D

Toxa | 06-18-2008 12:26 AM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSalmon (Post 1150884) Hell, I was looking for a .44 revolver or .45 revolver ( rare) back up to my XD. Any recommendations given the post?
Look at ruger

wallew | 06-18-2008 02:09 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Ever since S&W 'discovered' MIM (metal injected molded) parts, their quality has gone down hill. I've disassembled way to many newer S&W revolvers and semi-autos and find the MIM parts are starting to rust. And I live in a dry semi-arid climate here in Denver. God only knows what gunsmiths on both coasts find when they disassemble a S&W. As far as I'm concerned, the older S&W's are good revolvers. The newer stuff could be brought up to that quality. Purchase one. Send it back to the factory 'hand work only' shop where they do all the custom work. TELL THEM to replace all the MIM with machined parts, which are available for an extra price. THEN you are about as close as you will get, using todays manufacturing processes. SS, Look at the S&W 625 Mountain Gun. Comes in 3", 4", 5" & 6" barrels, though the 5" is the most common one. I've owned several. After replacing a few MIM parts, it's a great gun that will literally last forever. If you keep your eye out for an older Model 25, it's the same gun, just much older. Here's a link to a S&W 625 JM (Jerry Miculek) - 4" full underlug barrel, six shot for right at $700. That seems to be the going price for them - http://www.gunsamerica.com/998846441...Miculek_Ne.htm If you JUST have to have the best, keep looking for a Model 25 - here's one for a 1955 25-2 45 ACP with a 6.5" pinned barrel - for a reasonable $840 - http://www.gunsamerica.com/924432425...e_Shipping.htm Here's another 25-2 with a 6" barrel - for $800 - http://www.gunsamerica.com/949175945...e_Shipping.htm I've owned several Lew Horton limited run S&W revolvers and have always been pleased with the quality and craftmanship. They ARE expensive. But they are worth it. Here's a link. Second and third revolver down are S&W's NEW M25 in blue and in nickel. So exactly what you are looking for, just not cheap. But hey, you want quality, Lew Horton IS the way to go. Limited run pistols, generally passed through the Custom shop before they see them. http://www.lewhorton.com/m242529.html Hope that helps.

MOD1 | 06-18-2008 09:36 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks SilverSalmon, I agree with others that favor older S&W revolvers. Several years ago, I recall seeing a friend's M686 barrel launch itself down range. To make matters worse, the factory installation of a new barrel scared the cylinder window badly. Personally, I don't care for the internal lock featured on the current models. How sad, because I really like the looks of the S&W M22 in .45 ACP, and if it weren't for that silly internal lock, I'd have one. As Wallew suggested, you might want to look at older M25-2s in .45 ACP. Just my two (SAE 4140 steel) cents. Take care, Mod1

SilverSalmon | 06-19-2008 06:40 AM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks I gotta say, I'm a little pissed with S&W. I wanted a back up revolver to my .45 Springfield, because those ^&^@*@!(*& don't sell spare parts to the public and may not do so,before SHTF. I also wanted a revolver because they have less moving pieces, so I thought they were sort of indestructable. Guess I'll get a Glock 21 and spare parts, unless anybody has a better rec. Thanks! Looks like those Super Red Hawks have horrible grips. Anyone?

jrog100 | 06-19-2008 09:06 AM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSalmon (Post 1150884) Hell, I was looking for a .44 revolver or .45 revolver ( rare) back up to my XD. Any recommendations given the post?
Yeah, buy a S&W 629. Just because hawks said it doesn't mean it's true. He's just an angry man - Smith and Wesson told him to piss off when he asked for free merchandise to test - that's probably the long and short of it.

shades2 | 06-19-2008 11:10 AM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxa (Post 1151387) Look at ruger
Yeah I was going to say, incredibly rugged guns. Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum with a 6" barrel, (Model # KGP-161) with Hogue or Pachmeyer rubber grips. I've shot that one and loved it, with +P loads too. http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firear...&type=Revolver http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firear...ction&famlst=8 I'm not really a big wheel-gun fan, but one of these will hopefully make it into my collection eventually. You can tell they're over-engineered, which is nice.

SilverSalmon | 06-19-2008 11:14 AM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 1153530) Yeah I was going to say, incredibly rugged guns. Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum with a 6" barrel, (Model # KGP-161) with Hogue or Pachmeyer rubber grips. I've shot that one and loved it, with +P loads too. http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firear...&type=Revolver http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firear...ction&famlst=8 I'm not really a big wheel-gun fan, but one of these will hopefully make it into my collection eventually. You can tell they're over-engineered, which is nice.
Yeah, I think I'm gonna get that ruger. I want a back up to my Springfield. Not spare parts and I don't like it for SHTF situation. Wheel guns don't usually break, due to less moving parts. I know I just over generealized, but you get my drift, and I hear Rugers are the stuff of legends. Thanks to everyone!

wallew | 06-19-2008 01:31 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks jrog100, Trust me when I tell you (being a retired freelance photojournalist) NO ONE GIVES you something for free. Even if you are testing it. SOMETIMES, if they are wanting you to review a product that is either just been released or not out yet, you might get a preproduction piece that after review MUST be sent back, so they can send it on to the next writer. BUT, about 99% of writers who do articles about products NORMALLY just go buy them outright. Generally because they needed or wanted that particular product and saw an opportunity to perhaps sell a few words to their magazine or newspaper of their choice. But being 'He's just an angry man - Smith and Wesson told him to piss off when he asked for free merchandise to test - that's probably the long and short of it' is about as far off base as you can get and still remain on this planet. Sorry bud, but that's not how it works.

Toxa | 06-20-2008 10:33 AM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 1153530) Yeah I was going to say, incredibly rugged guns. Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum with a 6" barrel, (Model # KGP-161) with Hogue or Pachmeyer rubber grips. I've shot that one and loved it, with +P loads too. http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firear...&type=Revolver http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firear...ction&famlst=8 I'm not really a big wheel-gun fan, but one of these will hopefully make it into my collection eventually. You can tell they're over-engineered, which is nice.
Get one of those GPs and never think about it breaking. I got one in SS with 4 inch barrel and absolutely love it. I'm keeping an eye out for sp101 with 2 inch too.

jrog100 | 06-20-2008 01:20 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1153707) jrog100, Trust me when I tell you (being a retired freelance photojournalist) NO ONE GIVES you something for free. Even if you are testing it. SOMETIMES, if they are wanting you to review a product that is either just been released or not out yet, you might get a preproduction piece that after review MUST be sent back, so they can send it on to the next writer. BUT, about 99% of writers who do articles about products NORMALLY just go buy them outright. Generally because they needed or wanted that particular product and saw an opportunity to perhaps sell a few words to their magazine or newspaper of their choice. But being 'He's just an angry man - Smith and Wesson told him to piss off when he asked for free merchandise to test - that's probably the long and short of it' is about as far off base as you can get and still remain on this planet. Sorry bud, but that's not how it works.
Oh come on now friend. Vendors give stuff away to hunters all the time. I guess your right when you say it's not free because they do require a review. charle haucks is an angry man. At least angry at s&w. His writings aren't believeable to anyone who has ever owned smith's handgun products. They are the finest quality products made in the world today.

90%RealMoney | 06-20-2008 01:33 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Geesh! I don't know. I own 3 S&W revolvers, never had a problem at all, EVER! This is no different than people being a Chevy or Ford person. Someone has one bad experience with a certain make, and they swear off that manufacturer, for the rest of their lives! I say Bullshit!

SilverSalmon | 06-20-2008 02:05 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Quote:
Originally Posted by 90%RealMoney (Post 1155326) Geesh! I don't know. I own 3 S&W revolvers, never had a problem at all, EVER! This is no different than people being a Chevy or Ford person. Someone has one bad experience with a certain make, and they swear off that manufacturer, for the rest of their lives! I say Bullshit!
what year are they? I heard no complaints on the Ruger .44 but I have heard some about the S&W .44 which leaves me to believe.........

90%RealMoney | 06-20-2008 02:20 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks My 686 is about 24 years old. Model 37 airweight 22 years old, and my model 500 is 2 years old.

90%RealMoney | 06-20-2008 02:23 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSalmon (Post 1155374) what year are they? I heard no complaints on the Ruger .44 but I have heard some about the S&W .44 which leaves me to believe.........
Hearing something is one thing, what's your personal experience?

TheGrayGhost | 06-20-2008 03:33 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSalmon (Post 1150884) I was looking for a .44 revolver or .45 revolver ( rare) back up to my XD. Any recommendations given the post?
With revolvers, it's hard to beat Ruger.

wallew | 06-20-2008 05:03 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Quote:
Originally Posted by jrog100 (Post 1155307) Oh come on now friend. Vendors give stuff away to hunters all the time. I guess your right when you say it's not free because they do require a review. charle haucks is an angry man. At least angry at s&w. His writings aren't believeable to anyone who has ever owned smith's handgun products. They are the finest quality products made in the world today.
jrog100, Apparently you did NOT read what I said. Yeah, every ONCE and a while ALMOST ALL MANUFACTURER'S give freebie stuff out. To journalist, to fans of their product, hell to j6p on the street. IT DOES HAPPEN. But in MOST instances, every article written that is a product review is because that particular journalist decided to PURCHASE that product for themselves and then write a review. I played that game for more than 15 years. Trust me, it just doesn't happen where a 'known journalist' is literally GIVEN ANYTHING. Generally goes against a journalists nature, as people THEN have YOUR opinion. Also, did we MISS the other part of what I talked about? You know, where S&W sold out to the Brit's who had NO idea how to run the company OR the marketing arm? They lost CUSTOMERS BY THE THOUSANDS every day. I WAS ONE OF THEM. I sold ALL my S&W stuff, including a really nice push button opener knife and a pristine set of S&W handcuffs as well. Plus multiple firearms, mainly .45 ACP revolvers, including a NIB sequentially numbered pair of SS Mountain guns. But you GOTTA DO what you gotta do. This guy is NOT the only person who was (and some say still are) some of the people who have sworn off S&W because exactly what this guy says. Some people swore off S&W because of the things I listed. And I STAND by my statements. Since S&W discovered MIM parts, their quality has gone DOWN, NOT UP. While they USED to make really nice handguns, after the British company (Thompsons) changed all sorts of manufacturing processes to cut costs, their quality slipped. BIG TIME. After being sold to a group of American investors, who moved the corp to AZ (I think), S&W has been working on repairing their 'injured' public image. And I've not ONLY owned S&W handguns, I WORKED ON THEM ALL THE TIME AS A GUNSMITH. As I said, the old stuff are still in great shape. The new ones? Not so much.

SilverSalmon | 06-20-2008 07:35 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Quote:
Originally Posted by 90%RealMoney (Post 1155400) Hearing something is one thing, what's your personal experience?
I was really asking a genuine question and telling you what i heard. I wasn't being an ass, I was seeking understanding. I wasn't trying to be an ass. Do you mind answering th question, I'm really curious with your personal experience.

specsaregood | 06-21-2008 02:03 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks I went on an archaelogical dig in the attic today and unearthed this little beauty S&W.38 Special. It was stored nice and clean; must have been up there unused for at least 15 years. I have very little experience with handguns other than shooting a few of friends'; I've always been a rifle and shotgun guy. So anything I should know about this gun? Is it POS or decent piece? Rumor is there are a few rifles up there --which is what I went up there looking for; didn't expect to find this.

wallew | 06-21-2008 03:06 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks IF you can give me more info, I can probably give you the when, where and what it's overall value is. Looks like a 3" barrel? In .38 special, comes close to what a 'Chief's Special' would be. Whoever owned it took care of it and did the correct thing by adding the finger grips. This is the old school way of making it easier to handle. Definitely a concealed carry piece for sure. And looks to be in fairly good shape. Drop me an email or PM. Be glad to help.

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elroy | 06-22-2008 12:34 AM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks I have numerous S&W handguns. The oldest one is a model 60 snub nose .38 special I bought in 1977. I've never had a problem with any of them.

CyberGold | 06-22-2008 04:23 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks I am of the opinion that All of his examples are made-up BullS*** solely to stir up his readers. Talk about copycats- the name is Taurus! I currently own over __ S&W of various models and vintages and have sold probably that may over the years. I have handled several times that many and short of inspecting the cylinder gap with a guage, I can't recall any quality issues that he mentions or any others for that matter. Sure, some of them have not been as accurate as others and sometimes the sights need to be adjusted pretty far to the right, but those issues are with my shooting not the gun. I sold a 4046 to a guy who swore that when both him and an experienced friend shot it, it hit the ground in front of the target - I took it back and shot several (10 shot) 3" groups and gave him the targets. That was probably a case of buyers remorse. If the crane (aka yoke) is sprung, it is generally because of some yahoo flipping the cylinder closed like he saw on TV - bad way to mis-handle any revolver. Guns are abused in many ways. Quality has been said to be varied during the 70's and 80's based on who owned S&W at the time, although somehow, the ones I own seem to be perfectly fine. People get opinionated when manufacturing changes take place- such as pinned and recessed cylinders are dropped,and they bad mouth the manufacturer (Model 70 anyone?) but that doesn't make the product inferior. There are a few issues with various models such as heavy loads in 44mag and recently the infamous lock malfunctioning, but most issues have been addressed and fixed. Also I don't think you can find better customer service anywhere else. They even pay shipping. I would buy a S&W over any other brand revolver. However, semi-autos from other manufacturers are often preferred. My S&W autos are OK and I do like my 3913 a lot. I have a new S&W .40 compact that is a nice and reliable but compared to my Springfield XD 40sc, I would choose the XD for personal preference reasons, not because there is anything wrong with the S&W.

Irons | 06-22-2008 04:50 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks We have 3 686 S&W .357 revolvers we bought from the Ottawa County Sheriffs dept. when they switched to the "spray and pray" 9mm answer. I don't know how old they are, probably early 70's, but they are tight as a drum. From a guy who has been a machinist for 21 years these stainless steel beauties are works of art. The bad smiths is new news to me, but we shoot on our own property and favor Colts, HK's, Kimbers and Berettas so I dont have the interaction with many other shooters some do.

jrog100 | 06-23-2008 09:33 AM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Quote:
Originally Posted by specsaregood (Post 1156578) I went on an archaelogical dig in the attic today and unearthed this little beauty S&W.38 Special. It was stored nice and clean; must have been up there unused for at least 15 years. I have very little experience with handguns other than shooting a few of friends'; I've always been a rifle and shotgun guy. So anything I should know about this gun? Is it POS or decent piece? Rumor is there are a few rifles up there --which is what I went up there looking for; didn't expect to find this.
It's total junk. If you PM me, I'll give you my info so that I could take it off your hands and dispose of it for you. I'll even pay YOU a nominal fee :D

Lackluster | 06-23-2008 11:30 AM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1152130) I've owned several Lew Horton limited run S&W revolvers and have always been pleased with the quality and craftmanship. They ARE expensive. But they are worth it. Here's a link. Second and third revolver down are S&W's NEW M25 in blue and in nickel. So exactly what you are looking for, just not cheap. But hey, you want quality, Lew Horton IS the way to go. Limited run pistols, generally passed through the Custom shop before they see them. http://www.lewhorton.com/m242529.html Hope that helps.
Wallew, are you saying that the Lew Hortons don't have those 'MIM' parts?

wallew | 06-23-2008 11:30 AM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks For the purpose of clarity. In the past seven years, I've disassembled and reassembled numerous NEWER production (post 1990) S&W. Parts that I have found to be MIM are not in EVERY S&W, but almost each one has at least ONE or more of these MIM parts: thumb piece bolt sear cylinder stop hand In virtually every instance, each time I've found a MIM part, at the very least, it needed to be grit blasted to remove surface rust. In SOME instances, new parts were required. REGARDING TAURUS: Taurus produced its first revolver, the Model 38101SO, in 1941 and began exporting its revolvers to the U.S. market in 1968 through a series of importers. In 1970, the Bangor Punta Corporation, then the parent company of Smith & Wesson, purchased 54 percent of Forjas Taurus, allowing the two firearms manufacturers to easily share information regarding design and manufacturing. In 1977, Taurus was purchased from Bangor Punta by its current owners, and its ties to Smith & Wesson were severed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_%28manufacturer%29 While I don't particularly care for Wiki, in this instance it's the EASIEST place to find this information. So for a WHILE (seven years) the same parent company owned BOTH S&W and Taurus allowing them to work together and share information. Hope that helps.

Rampon | 06-23-2008 01:20 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1156637) IF you can give me more info, I can probably give you the when, where and what it's overall value is. Looks like a 3" barrel? In .38 special, comes close to what a 'Chief's Special' would be. Whoever owned it took care of it and did the correct thing by adding the finger grips. This is the old school way of making it easier to handle. Definitely a concealed carry piece for sure. And looks to be in fairly good shape. Drop me an email or PM. Be glad to help.
Hello Wallew, I also have one which appears to be identical to the one in the photo above.It belonged to my Dad. I gave it to him in the late 70's, I think...maybe early 80's It is a 3" barrel (end of cylinder to end of barrel) and in pristine condition. Been fired maybe 20 times. Doesn't have the finger grips. Finally found the Model on the frame just above the hinge of the cylinder (w/cylinder opened). It says Mod 36-1. Currently loaded w/ S&W 38 SPL+P's and have half a box of same "S&W 38 Special+P, 125 GR Jacketed Hollow Point" Price tag on Ctgs ...$10.22/50 Says made in USA, Springfield, Mass. One side of barrel says 38 S&W Special CTG. Other side says SMITH & WESSON S# begins...J5337XX Cylinder seems tight as a glove. Wouldn't want one of my family to be hurt by a piece exploding...what do you know about this one? TIA

wallew | 06-24-2008 12:04 AM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks This is DEFINITELY a Chief's Special and WILL DEFINITELY handle the +P ammo. I wouldn't go with +P+ though, as those are reaching magnum pressures. This is a J Framed pistol and it will be an EXCELLENT concealed handgun for carry purposes. I hate giving out info that would get ANYONE in trouble. If you live in a firearms friendly state, you could take it to the range and fire ONE round through it. I'd be willing to do it myself for you if you lived here in Denver for free. Most gunsmiths have access to either a range or a test fire box where they can shoot a round through a firearm at a relatively low risk to everyone concerned. Having said that, S&W has ALWAYS made sturdy firearms. I should have been clear about that in my earlier post. It's NOT that the majority of S&W revolvers are poorly made, it's just they changed their manufacturing technique to save a few pennies. My bitch is simply they went cheap on some interior parts to save a few pennies. Damned bean counters. But S&W has ALWAYS made good revolvers. If it were mine, I'd replace the grips with something a little more modern so you can hold onto it a little easier. With a +P round and small grips, a J Framed revolver CAN jump around in your hand if you don't have a tight grip on it. Lots of places to get them and it depends on your personal tastes. Given that it's a nickel plated pistol, something dark would look really good. If you are into rubber grips, I think 'Uncle Mike' makes a set that fits a J Framed revolver. I would personally put a really nice set of either rosewood or ebony grips. Perhaps I would make up a set of 'purple heart' grips (that would be a custom grip made BY me FOR me). Here's Lew Hortons site that shows several customs guns, including a few J Frames with different types of grips to give you an idea. http://www.lewhorton.com/jflamem36.html Hey, even a nice set of faux ivory grips wouldn't run more than about $75 (ish), again, depending on WHERE you live. If there is a local gun show in your area, take it to the guy who is selling grips. Every gun show I've ever attended ALWAYS has one guy selling them. He might even put them on for you. Here's a Taurus in a 2" Stainless with faux ivory grips. They also gold plated the hammer, trigger and the cylinder release w/screw and grip screw. Makes a nice looking gun, if you like this type of stuff (hate to admit it, but I do). http://www.taurususa.com/products/pr...egory=Revolver Past that, you could load ONE ROUND (preferably a dummy - inert round) and close the cylinder on it. Then rotate the cylinder to make sure it doesn't bind. If it passes THAT test, then take it to the range and put one down range. After that, it should be good to go.

AMforPM | 06-24-2008 12:55 AM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Because I can't get laser grips for her taurus titanium little 38, I was thinking to get the wife a chief's special in stainless with the laser grip. Now I'd better look for a good 2nd hand older one. She wants a revolver and for it to be very light, and is really interested in laser grips. Rugers are great guns but they weigh a ton. A thread on here reminded me of how much I liked the Charter 44 bulldog. I may look for that used or try to find out if the new owners are making good guns. The old ones seemed like real honeys at the price.

CyberGold | 06-24-2008 03:31 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks I have laser grips on a S&W 642 ( centennial airweight) and a 638 bodyguard they work great. I have them loaded with 125gr +p Hp. I don't recommend a 44 in a small frame unless you can handle the recoil for follow up shots. I do like pre-expanded bullets and carry a 696 44spl often. As for MIM parts (metal injection molding), they are proven to be reliable parts, although they are not forged steel and don't have that nice case-hardened look. Remember, all those Ruger parts that everyone raves about are investment castings - not forged either. Here is a thread I found that gives a little info on them. http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?p=1119608

AMforPM | 06-25-2008 12:45 AM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks That decided me. Thanks. The wife is off for the summer and I think an airweight would be light enough for her. She can go to the gunshop on a weekday after we call ahead and get one with laser grips and take an hour of instruction on their range to learn to use her sights and to make sure her airweight is a good one. If they have an old one in good condition, we will take that by preference. I might call all the gunshops for a good old airweight and just have the big shop with the range put on the laser grips and give her some instruction and practice. I'm behind on some jobs I'm enjoying her summer vacation so much so it is cheaper for me to work while someone at the range instructs her. BUT, I'm not going to have them teach her 2 handed police style shooting. She is much more likely to need the gun in situations where she hides as much of her body as possible and fires one handed. When I shot the bulldog I was surprised how well and fast I could shoot it. But it did bruise my hand. I guess I can take the pain. But I may go with a colt 1911 with laser for me. I'm great with open sight long guns or shotguns, but my handgun shooting is adequate, but barely. I shot a lot more BB guns than any handgun as a kid. So one is natural, but the other is, like scopes, newer and less a part of me.

CyberGold | 06-25-2008 08:39 AM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks I also would seek a stainless steel model as they don't require as much care. a good training tip... with an UNLOADED gun, at dusk, walk through your house and in that spit second as you round a wall or corner think of an object in the room such as a doorknob, lightswitch, picture etc and try to turn and point the gun at it from your waist and then squeeze the laser button to "fire". At first your beam will be all over the place but soon you will be hitting your target regularly.

AMforPM | 06-26-2008 01:34 AM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks That is great training tip. We will both do that. I am getting extra laser batteries anyway and want to try putting them in (not sure if they made it easy as unscrewing the grip or a big mess). But practicing what you will actually do rules and the laser would show you any bouncing from trigger misuse, as well. She wants the hammerless airweight though I have said the trigger pull of cocking the hammer is a hinderance to first shot accuracy. But she wants the smooth draw from hiding and besides, you go to double action after round 1 anyway. I may have a smith improve the trigger action. I will put old empty brass in since some hammers (and I'm not sure which) get hard wear from dry firing. We talked about the plan most of the day, refining it, and she is for matching mossberg semi autos so if we keep them in different rooms she will be comfy with either. I'm going to get pistol grips for maneuvering in a house and a short barrel, about an inch over the legal limit, and have extra shell capacity added as well. I may be satisfied with a 24 inch barrel, but no 28 for home defense. I wish that marine model came in semi auto. But it is pump only. I love stainless handguns, but the airweight is aluminum, I think and can be had with a black coating but it is not blueing over potential rust. This is really a budget buster added to getting a lot more storage food suitable for a diabetic, but I think time is running out on the FRN and even if we put food and guns on plastic (we are still getting 0% offers) and pay it off fast, food and guns may go up so fast even if we paid high interest buying now would still be cheaper. The FRN is toast just not quite all the way black yet. Thank goodness I ordered a lot of ammo about 2 years ago. It has gone nuts. I bought about 1k worth then and I think it would cost double now.

CyberGold | 06-26-2008 04:37 PM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks Your wife is smart to recognize the advantage of not having a hammer to snag on everything. Once you learn to shoot double action it will be natural. I recommend the mossburg 590 as it has all the features you want and the sound of the slide racking can be a big deterrent as heard though a door or from another room - maybe saving you from having to make that big big decision. The 18" + or so barrel is what you need for home use, anything longer will get in the way. My wife made nice material sock-covers that match the room decore so they are placed in plain sight around the house where we can grab one if needed but blend right in with the furnishings. Just grab the end of the barrel and the shotgun slides out the bottom of the cover - sock & cock! 8) Generally, I have always heard that you don't really need snap caps for a center fire gun and it would be safe to practice with empty chambers. If you do like the peace of mind that the hammer is falling on a cushioned surface - i would buy colored plastic snap caps so that live ammo doesn't get mistakenly mixed in with the empty cases ,that look the same from the side.

alaskamonte | 07-03-2008 02:23 AM
Re: The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson ~ Chuck Hawks [QUOTE=wallew;1152130]Ever since S&W 'discovered' MIM (metal injected molded) parts, their quality has gone down hill. I've disassembled way to many newer S&W revolvers and semi-autos and find the MIM parts are starting to rust. And I live in a dry semi-arid climate here in Denver. God only knows what gunsmiths on both coasts find when they disassemble a S&W. As far as I'm concerned, the older S&W's are good revolvers. The newer stuff could be brought up to that quality. Purchase one. Send it back to the factory 'hand work only' shop where they do all the custom work. TELL THEM to replace all the MIM with machined parts, which are available for an extra price. THEN you are about as close as you will get, using todays manufacturing processes. SS, Look at the S&W 625 Mountain Gun. Comes in 3", 4", 5" & 6" barrels, though the 5" is the most common one. I've owned several. After replacing a few MIM parts, it's a great gun that will literally last forever. If you keep your eye out for an older Model 25, it's the same gun, just much older. Here's a link to a S&W 625 JM (Jerry Miculek) - 4" full underlug barrel, six shot for right at $700. That seems to be the going price for them - http://www.gunsamerica.com/998846441...Miculek_Ne.htm If you JUST have to have the best, keep looking for a Model 25 - here's one for a 1955 25-2 45 ACP with a 6.5" pinned barrel - for a reasonable $840 - http://www.gunsamerica.com/924432425...e_Shipping.htm Here's another 25-2 with a 6" barrel - for $800 - http://www.gunsamerica.com/949175945...e_Shipping.htm I've owned several Lew Horton limited run S&W revolvers and have always been pleased with the quality and craftmanship. They ARE expensive. But they are worth it. Here's a link. Second and third revolver down are S&W's NEW M25 in blue and in nickel. So exactly what you are looking for, just not cheap. But hey, you want quality, Lew Horton IS the way to go. Limited run pistols, generally passed through the Custom shop before they see them. http://www.lewhorton.com/m242529.html Hope that helps.[/QUOT I beg to DIFFER wallew, I'm inside Smiths every day here in humid Anchorage...no rust. A hint to the retired smiths, the new enhanced Smiths are stronger than ever, the older Smiths may hold their value but shake loose with warm loads, the enhanced models compare with Rugers strength. As to Horton, last six I recieved had ring lines like they'd been to Jerry Miculeks school of shooting.

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