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- - Legal Liability and Defensive Firearms Use - Don't Forget (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=355290)

koyaanisqatsi | 03-04-2009 12:58 PM
Legal Liability and Defensive Firearms Use - Don't Forget I think about this stuff ... :bear_thumb: http://www.chucktaylorasaa.com/graph...aylor-ASAA.jpg LIABILITY: THE UNSEEN HAZARD by Chuck Taylor As a professional weapons & tactics instructor, the term "liability" is to me a necessary evil. Necessary in the sense that I have no choice but to recognize and deal with its existence and evil in the sense that it greatly restricts my options. Moreover, though the term is used a great deal these days, most individual police officers, agencies and even many instructors are unaware that it actually means several different things. In other words, "liability" is applicable in other areas besides civil law. And to ignore these other areas -- all just as disconcerting and influential -- in favor of simple civil liability, is, in my opinion, a grave error. In the various courses I teach here at the American Small Arms Academy and elsewhere, I advise students that, for our purposes, liability takes three forms -- tactical, criminal and civil. To define these, tactical liability -- do we win or lose the altercation? Do we live or die? -- is obviously the first priority, for unless we successfully defend ourselves, the other two don't matter! While without question part of the equation, it isn't enough to say that tactical liability deals with weapon-handling skills, shooting techniques and individual tactics. Weapon Handling Skills -- Proper Grip & Stance, Correct Loading/Unloading and Chamber-Checking procedures, Presentation from both the Holster and Ready and from Open or Concealed Carry, Responses to the Left, Right and Rear, Speed and Tactical Reloading, Malfunction Clearing and Field Shooting Positions are not only part of the package but "must have" items. Without them, no safety or consistency in performance is possible. Moreover, tactical flexibility -- the ability to deal with a wide variety of situations under equally variable conditions of weather, et al -- demands that we have a full perspective on these skills. State-of-the-art Shooting Techniques -- the fundamentals of Marksmanship,Target Engagement Philosophy, Failures To Stop, Vehicle Shooting, Shooting While Moving, Partial, Obscured or Angled Targets and Close Range Emergency Response Procedures are equally important, for without them, too, our repertoire of skills is incomplete. Individual tactics, the principles that control how we actually behave in a deadly environment, are no less critical. Using our eyes and ears, maintaining distance, assuming nothing, keeping our balance, being careful with corners and watching our sights when actually shooting are the methods by which we bring both weapon-handling and actual shooting skill into play. If these principles are ignored, it won't matter much how fast you can present your weapon or how quickly or accurately you can shoot. At this point, most training officers and instructors say, "Wow, I had no idea it was so complex and interrelated!" and they're right. But there's more. Tactical liability is also influenced by more mundane things, actions that are taken and decisions made long before any actual gunfight occurs. For example, it makes a difference not only what kind of gun you select for on or off-duty use -- SA auto, DA auto or revolver, or DA-only or Semi-DA auto -- but what modifications or optional features are authorized on them as well. Many departments, individual officers and trainers erroneously think that the single-action (SA) self-loader ("auto") is somehow unsafe because it's carried in Condition One (cocked & locked) when imminent use is expected. Mechanically, this is categorically untrue, for literally millions of SA autos -- most notably the legendary Colt Model 1911 .45 and Browning P-35 9mm "High Power" -- have been carried that way without mishap for seventy years or more. Still, the ominous appearance of Condition One carry frightens uninformed administrators and citizens, causing it to often be prohibited on the basis of negative public-relations (read that political) or civil liability. Even though the SA auto is by far the easiest handgun in the world to shoot well under stress, and even though it doesn't require any extra training to safely and effectively operate, these two negative factors have assumed a disproportionate amount of influence. Even though their tactical superiority is well-proven, the SA auto has become a victim of an ill-advised concern about civil liability. If it looks ominous or threatening, even though that presumption might be totally erroneous and based on nothing more than ignorance or hearsay, civil liability inevitably rears its ugly head. Many popular "after-market" or "bolt-on" items, too, are sheer poison when examined from a tactical viewpoint. Extra tight muzzle bushing to increase accuracy, excessively complex (and thus fragile) adjustable sights, trigger shoes, ambidextrous and/or extended slide release levers, extended magazine release buttons and such are quite literally disasters looking for a place to happen! Because they're unnecessary, cumbersome, often fragile and, because many of them are spin-offs from some form of target shooting endeavor, are often ill-suited for use on a combat weapon, they hinder maximum efficiency under stress. As such, they drastically increase tactical liability. Moreover, they can come back to haunt you from a civil liability standpoint, too, but more on that later. There is still more. The ammunition you select is also a major source of tactical concern. Naturally, you want the best ammo performance possible, but have you really defined your tactical needs before making your choice. Sure, it must have the ability to feed and function in a service pistol under the widest-possible variety of conditions, but for police work, it must offer much, much more. It must also demonstrate acceptable target incapacitation, exhibit good penetration against light cover/concealment but no so much as to present too much of a threat to downrange or uninvolved personnel, produce the lowest possible muzzle flash and recoil and withstand the abuses of field handling as well. And on top of all of this, it mustn't cost too much, lest it incur the wrath of the watchdogs of the budget, preventing its procurement entirely! Holsters and other equipment also falls within this category, as does the kind of training you receive. Training based on theoretical or competitive concepts has no place in life and death situations and certificates from instructors or schools whose training is based on such hold as little validity in a civil -- and often, criminal -- court as it does in a knockdown, dragout gunfight on the street. Both in actual shoot-outs and courtroom trials, this fact has been proven over and over again. So, learn techniques intended to work in the real world, not just on a shooting range, taught by an instructor with real-world experience and perspective. You'll find the techniques and tactics utilized by such trainers to be far superior, especially when the chips are down and the bullets are flying both ways! Criminal liability entails an evaluation of how you performed during the event as compared with the written law. Again, training is the key, because the shooting methods and tactics you used will have come from your training background. To, for example, engage an adversary armed with an edged or blunt weapon when he is too far away to actually present a deadly threat to you is guaranteed to get you put in jail and, of course, lose the civil lawsuit that will inevitably result. Another example -- to utilize a Ready Position that is too high and thus points the weapon at the suspect's pelvic area often escalates the encounter to deadly levels because he doesn't respond the way you want him too. Put yourself in his shoes -- your attention, too, would be focused on the gun, not what is being said verbally! In addition, in many states, this is called "brandishing" and is often a felony in itself. There are many tactics taught that also can get you in serious legal trouble. I once saw a magazine article in which the author included a graphic "how to" photo essay on how to deal with an arm's length attacker. His method entailed striking the adversary under the chin with the base of the palm of the shooting hand (a blow which itself, if properly delivered, will kill or maim), thus snapping his head rearward. Then, as he toppled over backwards, you step to the rear, simultaneously presenting your pistol, and then shoot him as he lies on the ground! If you do this, don't be surprised if you're charged, indicted and convicted of at least manslaughter, with 2nd and even 1st Degree Murder being a definite possibility! If you knock the guy silly, how can you justify the use of Deadly Force afterwards? Things like this are taught all the time, but have far-reaching and catastrophic ramifications. Last, civil liability -- wrongful dead, excessive force, et al, are the least controlled -- and most theatrical -- form of litigation. In criminal law, there are limitations and carefully governed procedures to guarantee due process, but in a civil suit...anything goes! This means that nearly everything you do -- weapon, equipment and ammo selection, training received, tactical actions -- everything, is subject to courtroom examination and justification. And if you've made some poor choices in any of them, look out, because it's going to get ugly real fast! In fact, a good civil liability philosophy to have is to expect to be considered guilty until proven innocent, the direct opposite of what is required in criminal law. Generally speaking, things that increase your tactical and/or criminal liability also increase your civil liability as well. Thus is can safely be said that the three are often irrevocably intertwined. On the other hand, there can also be occasions in which only one or two of the three liabilities might surface. Either way, only careful consideration of your needs, equally careful selections of weapons, equipment, ammunition and being especially careful when you select a source of training, can reduce your concerns in all three areas to manageable levels. As you can see, liability is serious business. So, be smart -- be careful, be realistic and don't look for magic solutions or "screamin' deals" in any of those areas or you're simply asking for trouble. There's no such thing as a free lunch, regardless of what sharp marketers tell you. To protect yourself, get the best, in every way you can. Not only does your very life depend on it, but so does your welfare and peace of mind afterwards. http://www.chucktaylorasaa.com/liability.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- Oklahoma Concealed Carry Rules of Engagement FIVE RULES FOR CONCEALED CARRY (as typical in many States... to reduce liability) 1. YOUR CONCEALED HANDGUN IS FOR PROTECTION OF LIFE ONLY. Draw it solely in preparation to protect yourself or an innocent third party from the wrongful and life-threatening criminal actions of another. 2. KNOW EXACTLY WHEN YOU CAN USE YOUR GUN. A criminal adversary must have, or reasonably appear to have: A) the ability to inflict serious bodily injury (he is armed or reasonably appears to be armed with a deadly weapon), B) the opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm (he is physically positioned to harm you with his weapon), and C) his intent (hostile actions or words) indicates that he means to place you in jeopardy -- to do you serious or fatal physical harm. When all three of these attack potential elements are in place simultaneously, then you are facing a reasonably perceived deadly threat that justifies an emergency deadly force response. 3. IF YOU CAN RUN AWAY -- RUN! Just because you’re armed doesn’t necessarily mean you must confront a bad guy at gunpoint. Develop your "situation awareness" skills so you can be alert to detect and avoid trouble altogether. Keep in mind that if you successfully evade a potential confrontation, the single negative consequence involved might be your bruised ego, which should heal with mature rationalization. But, if you force a confrontation you risk the possibility of you or a family member being killed or suffering lifelong crippling/disfiguring physical injury, criminal liability and/or financial ruin from civil lawsuit. Flee if you can, fight only as a last resort. 4. DISPLAY YOUR GUN, GO TO JAIL. Expect to be arrested by police at gunpoint, and be charged with a crime anytime your concealed handgun is seen by another citizen in public, regardless of how unintentional or innocent or justified the situation might seem. Choose a method of carry that reliably keeps your gun hidden from public view at all times. You have no control over how a stranger will react to seeing (or learning about) your concealed handgun. He or she might become alarmed and report you to police as "a man or woman with a gun." Depending on his or her feelings about firearms, this person might be willing to maliciously embellish his or her story in attempt to have your gun seized by police or to get you arrested. An alarmed citizen who reports a "man with a gun" is going to be more credible to police than you when you're stopped because you match the suspect's description, and you are found to have a concealed handgun in your possession. Before you expose your gun in public, ask yourself: "Is this worth going to jail for?" The only time this question should warrant a "yes" response is when an adversary has at least, both ability and intent, and is actively seeking the opportunity to do you great harm. 5. DON’T LET YOUR EMOTIONS GET THE BEST OF YOU. If, despite your best efforts to the contrary, you do get into some kind of heated dispute with another person while you’re armed, never mention, imply or exhibit your gun for the purpose of intimidation or one-upmanship. You’ll simply make a bad situation worse -- for yourself (see rule #4). http://www.bartlesvilleshooting.com/...aledCarry.html Hindsight is 20/20 ... foresight is not always so clear ... :ok:

AOW | 03-04-2009 01:50 PM
Re: Legal Liability and Defensive Firearms Use - Don't Forget Thanks for posting this!

End of Hope | 03-04-2009 03:54 PM
Re: Legal Liability and Defensive Firearms Use - Don't Forget Quote:
Originally Posted by koyaanisqatsi (Post 1606774) Oklahoma Concealed Carry Rules of Engagement... ...the ability to inflict serious bodily injury (he is armed or reasonably appears to be armed with a deadly weapon)... ...3. IF YOU CAN RUN AWAY -- RUN!... ...4. DISPLAY YOUR GUN, GO TO JAIL. Expect to be arrested by police at gunpoint, and be charged with a crime anytime your concealed handgun is seen by another citizen in public, regardless of how unintentional or innocent or justified the situation might seem. Choose a method of carry that reliably keeps your gun hidden from public view at all times. You have no control over how a stranger will react to seeing (or learning about) your concealed handgun. He or she might become alarmed and report you to police as "a man or woman with a gun." Depending on his or her feelings about firearms, this person might be willing to maliciously embellish his or her story in attempt to have your gun seized by police or to get you arrested. An alarmed citizen who reports a "man with a gun" is going to be more credible to police than you when you're stopped because you match the suspect's description, and you are found to have a concealed handgun in your possession. Before you expose your gun in public, ask yourself: "Is this worth going to jail for?" The only time this question should warrant a "yes" response is when an adversary has at least, both ability and intent, and is actively seeking the opportunity to do you great harm.
Exactly what sort of fairy state IS Oklahoma?! Self-defense only when the attacker is "armed" (with a gun)? What if he's a monster, and you're a 90 pound woman? Run away? How many criminals will get a rise out of your "weakness"? Bear your firearm, "go to jail"? Then WTF is a CCW for? Is the general public in Oklahoma such a bunch of pansies that everyone acts like you're a mugger if you exercise your 2A rights? What about open carry? (California has a plain statute permitting unloaded open carry for everyone, loaded in some conditions for CCW holders) And people have the g-damned nerve to criticize my state for its gun laws!

Team Paratrip | 03-04-2009 04:10 PM
Re: Legal Liability and Defensive Firearms Use - Don't Forget Quote:
Originally Posted by koyaanisqatsi (Post 1606774) [...]4. DISPLAY YOUR GUN, GO TO JAIL. [...]
There is a reason why it's a good idea to Open Carry if your state allows it. :biggrin: Other than that, it is something to definitely consider with sheeple and LEO's that would find anything to charge you with...

AuH2O64 | 03-04-2009 04:31 PM
Re: Legal Liability and Defensive Firearms Use - Don't Forget Quote:
Originally Posted by End of Hope (Post 1607052) Exactly what sort of fairy state IS Oklahoma?! Self-defense only when the attacker is "armed" (with a gun)? What if he's a monster, and you're a 90 pound woman?
I believe that if a potential attacker is large/strong enough, especially in comparison to the potential victim, that strength differential is itself considered a "deadly weapon,"

silverblood | 03-04-2009 04:42 PM
Re: Legal Liability and Defensive Firearms Use - Don't Forget This might be pretty unlikely, but if you are lucky enough to be in a situation where you can defend yourself unnoticed by anyone else (including cameras) and you can manage to leave no trace, then just move off and tell no one.

End of Hope | 03-04-2009 05:28 PM
Re: Legal Liability and Defensive Firearms Use - Don't Forget Quote:
Originally Posted by silverblood (Post 1607121) This might be pretty unlikely, but if you are lucky enough to be in a situation where you can defend yourself unnoticed by anyone else (including cameras) and you can manage to leave no trace, then just move off and tell no one.
One of the advantages of the CCW revolver. :biggrin: But yes, the likelihood of that in today's Big Brother world is incredibly small. And when the system finds you, they'll bring hell down on your head for not subjecting yourself to the rape of the "justice" system for defending yourself.

Tome | 03-04-2009 08:17 PM
Re: Legal Liability and Defensive Firearms Use - Don't Forget This is so wrong on so many levels: - Mike Tyson is chewing off your ear but you can't shoot him because he isn't armed? - Somebody notices your concealed weapon and you get arrested? Gee...you have a LICENSE to carry concealed. :4_1_72:

elroy | 03-04-2009 08:34 PM
Re: Legal Liability and Defensive Firearms Use - Don't Forget Quote:
Originally Posted by End of Hope (Post 1607052) Exactly what sort of fairy state IS Oklahoma?! Self-defense only when the attacker is "armed" (with a gun)? What if he's a monster, and you're a 90 pound woman? Run away? How many criminals will get a rise out of your "weakness"? Bear your firearm, "go to jail"? Then WTF is a CCW for? Is the general public in Oklahoma such a bunch of pansies that everyone acts like you're a mugger if you exercise your 2A rights? What about open carry? (California has a plain statute permitting unloaded open carry for everyone, loaded in some conditions for CCW holders) And people have the g-damned nerve to criticize my state for its gun laws!
The info presented from OK is fairly common in most states. The perp does not need to be armed with a gun. The 3 conditions ability, opportunity and intent break down as follows. ability - he is armed with a deadly weapon [gun, knife, basebal bat or hands and feet if he is much larger than the victim], if you are 87 years old any young male is capable of deadly force against you opportunity - usually means physical proximity, this varies by weapon, if the perp is 50 feet away and armed with a bat you better hold your fire intent - perp states "I will kill you" or "I'm going to blow your head off" or the perp charges you with a large knife These rules may vary if you live in a state with Castle Doctrine laws. These laws give you a lot of latitude in shooting anyone who enters your home or in some states attempted carjacking. Some states also allow deadly force against a perp trying to burn your home. Brandishing is not a good policy. If you pull your gun and prevent a crime you had better call the cops before the criminal does or if the criminal cannot identify you or your vehicle, be long gone before the cops arrive.

morganchaser | 03-04-2009 08:34 PM
Re: Legal Liability and Defensive Firearms Use - Don't Forget I haven't won a fight in a long time. My hand is ****ed up and I've gotten slow. If someone wants to fight me, I'm going to convince them otherwise. It's not my job to neutralize some hot-head unarmed. I'm sure as hell not going to chance them getting a hold of my weapon during a confrontation because I'm scared of a brandishing charge. Anyone who isn't scared for their life during a physical confrontation is naive. Particularly if they have a weapon on them which could be used against them. Most martial artists eventually learn that they don't want to get in fights cause all it takes is someone landing on their head wrong and you've got a dead body on your hands. Someone comes at you that's more than half your size: present your weapon. If anyone asks, you thought they were going to use your gun against you and were scared for your life. After that: I want a lawyer.

Bx3 | 03-04-2009 10:16 PM
Re: Legal Liability and Defensive Firearms Use - Don't Forget Something else to consider that most CCW holders overlook is to get yourself a competent defense attorney (on retainer) before you actually need one. The last thing you want to do after a good self defense shoot is to be looking for one in the yellow pages from jail. Emphasis on "defense" attorney who preferably understands the 2A and self defense laws of your state. Not any old lawyer will do in these cases. Bx3

koyaanisqatsi | 03-05-2009 12:38 PM
Re: Legal Liability and Defensive Firearms Use - Don't Forget After a day for you all to consider this thread post, let me share a true story that took place on the house property I now live in... it's sort of a unique place almost like a boarding house or dormitory for dedicated bachelors like me who need nothing more that a locked room and plenty of good chess players ... I do not exceed my needs in lodging, my economics 101. Five years ago a lady visited, estranged from her live-in boyfriend who was very violent ... he appeared, and was very angry ... he dragged her out to the front yard and began to curse and beat her ... (women are often just trouble) ... one of the ex-Army guys here brought out a 12ga and fired a round into the ground (BOOM!) ordering him to leave at once ... at some point police were called but ... the crazy man ADVANCED in view of onlooker witnesses toward the man with the 12ga pump... the man was a known user of powerful illegal stimulants. The ex-Army (friend of mine) fired a 12 ga Remington 1oz slug (BOOM!) through the man's knee ... police arrived minutes later ... the whole house was searched and all guns and ammo was taken from all residents here. Statements were taken and the shooter was NOT ARRESTED. Adjudication began and in a few weeks the man was cleared, actually he was never charged for any crime. Police returned the confiscated guns they took from the home but kept all the ammo, saying it was policy not to return ammo due to liability in custody of care or something... Now 5 years later the man who shot the other ran for City Council as a Libertarian but lost of course. The man who was shot will forever have a rigid knee. He has since apolgized to all parties involved. As I've indicated before this is the kind of low-threat situation that I face daily ... anything can happen and seems to have done in years previous to this big old house in a quaint old city... I see what is printed in this opening post, and I understand what I am supposed to understand ... will heed the cautions completely ... but this is also a true story of how our local sheriff sees the justifiable use of firearms in self defence ... perhaps sympathertic to the shooter ... police have to face this post-shooting scrutiny too you know, themselves like us too ... but according to the above (Rules of CC and force) you might think the laws are impossibly restrictive. Not always ... but they are always very very RISKY. For sure if I encounter the 'rules of engagement' and check all the criteria and get a GREEN LIGHT to use force, I can better act with clarity and little reservation. Thanks for comments from all here. BTW, I was trained in Close Quarter Combat, use the left hand to deflect blows, draw with the right and keep the weapon low and close the the right hip, firing straight ahead into the waist or upper thighs (shoot from the hip)until the attack ceases and he drops ... never let him get your gun! Let's say that if the situation is hectic and you can use the above to justify your actions ... you may still defend yourself and possibly feel no adverse repercussions ... but each situation is different. AT SOME POINT YOU WILL BE JUDGED ... perhaps a grand jury ... then maybe a criminal trial ... or perhaps a liability trial ... if it goes to trial, very very scary stuff requiring a pricey defense attorney at the least. I hope I never have to take the risk ... but I still do claim my right to carry, feeling almost a duty as a citizen today. (PS) I was once mugged 20 years ago by 4 men, very violent that police called a 'youth gang' ... if I had had a pistol after they picked me up and slammed me to the pavement on my head and shoulder, I could have rolled over firing up into them ... my life was surely in dire threat, overpowered with deadly force... l still consider that night as a memory often. Do you guys want to share any TRUE stories of liability or lack thereof in REAL shootings? Anybody want to tell a tale of justice/injustice? They don't have to apply only to CC, but any situation of deady force against a perp ... ??? ( BTW IMO, This forum needs better emoticons)

exporter | 03-05-2009 01:07 PM
Re: Legal Liability and Defensive Firearms Use - Don't Forget Quote:
Originally Posted by AuH2O64 (Post 1607108) I believe that if a potential attacker is large/strong enough, especially in comparison to the potential victim, that strength differential is itself considered a "deadly weapon,"
Borrowed somewhere from the web: There is something known as Disparity of Force; the situation that authorizes the law-abiding citizen to shoot what appears to be an unarmed man. In this concept, the law recognizes that the power of the attacker to kill or cripple with "body weapons," fists or feet, may be so great vis-a-vis the defender's stature and ability that this disparity of physical force becomes the aggressor's deadly weapon. If the attacker is a black belt or a professional fighter and known to your customer as such at the time, he possesses disparity of force. So does an unarmed male violently attacking an unarmed female. So does a gang, and as few as two unarmed assailants can give grounds for justifiable homicide if they attack ferociously enough. However, once all but one have been turned back or neutralized, the sole survivor is no longer a member of a gang and may no longer be shot -- at least, not for that reason. A sound and healthy person viciously attacking a cripple, or a strong young man attacking a weak old person, also create disparity of force.

koyaanisqatsi | 03-06-2009 01:31 PM
Re: Legal Liability and Defensive Firearms Use - Don't Forget Quote:
Originally Posted by AOW (Post 1606860) Thanks for posting this!
- Thanks, AOW, I thought I'd add this for you and others making good comments ... more for us to consider BEFORE I or one of you make a mistake that might cost us dearly for using our guns ... Cooper's Fourth Law makes us think twice about our ammunition. Full-metal-jacket bullets can easily pass all the way through a "Bad Guy," and hit another person standing behind the BG. This is "over-penetration." Too much penetration is a bad thing, and may lead to injuring innocent bystanders. You don't want to end up shooting a good person, and bringing about the very grief you are trying to prevent! For .380 pistols, FMJ bullets are probably OK. They will probably not go all the way through the body of a BG. If your pistol shoots .22 bullets, then use hollow points. The smallness of the .22 bullet makes it a slick penetrator. For 9mm, .40S&W or .45acp, hollow points are preferable, as they will expand inside the BG, and won't over-penetrate. If there is more than one BG, and you have no clear exit, you should use your mousegun to take out the one nearest you. If you are successful, the second BG may flee, or he may shoot YOU. If he is not close to you, it will be difficult for you to engage him with a mousegun. If stopping the BG near you gives you an opportunity to flee out the door, do so. You are not a policeman. You probably can't do a one-man rescue of everyone there. If you can flee, then flee. On the other hand, if the first BG has a rifle, or a larger handgun, you may be able to take it, and use it against a second BG. If there are more than two Bad Guys doing the crime, your goose is probably cooked. It's an uncertain situation, and as always, you are in God's hands. We may be brave and clever, or we may be stupid, but it is certainly God who decides the ultimate outcome. Silent prayer is not a bad idea, but don't close your eyes! Summarizing Mousegun Tactics 1 Keep your firearm concealed as long as you can, until you are within three yards of the BG. 2 Try to get a grip on your mousegun while it is still concealed in your pocket. This will give you a faster draw. 3 Don't forget that you only have a mousegun. It is not a "go to battle" weapon. It is an "escape" weapon - a weapon of last resort. Your objective is not to defeat the Bad Guys. Your objective is to save your own life. If you can exit the scene before drawing your firearm, then EXIT. 4 Draw from your invisible side, when the BG is not looking directly at you. 5 If it is time to shoot, then shoot. Don't talk, shoot. "When you have to shoot, SHOOT, don't talk."
  "When you have to shoot, SHOOT, don't talk."
:favorites8: 6 Place your shots in vital areas, and shoot until the BG is stopped. 7 Pray silently for God to guide and bless - I'm not kidding. Finally, when the shooting is over, and the BG is not a threat any longer, put your gun back in your pocket or holster, and call 911, and inform the person on the line that "there was a self-defense shooting at" your location. Don't say that you are the shooter. Don't say anything else. Don't tell anyone where your mousegun is. Just put your mousegun in your pocket, and join the rest of the crowd, and wait for the police. Don't leave the scene. Don't talk to the other people about the shooting. Keep cool and keep quiet. Keep your mousegun in your pocket. "Out of sight is out of mind." Half of the people there won't remember exactly what you did or did not do. They will not remember accurately what you said. It's better to keep quiet. They will all be witnesses at your trial, if there is one, and you may very well be arrested and charged with a homicide. You may also be sued by the BG for a million dollars, if he survives. So keep your mouth shut. WHATEVER you say may be used against you in court. When the police show up, just obey orders like everyone else. When they ask "Who shot the BG," raise your hand slowly and say "I was afraid for my life." Don't pull your mousegun out of your pocket until they order you to do so. Do exactly what they tell you to do, right away. Don't argue. Don't say anything except, "I was afraid for my life. That's all I can think about right now." Don't boast about what you did. If you are taken into custody, don't talk with the police about the shooting. Just say, "I was afraid for my life." You should have already called your lawyer, right after the 911 call. If you have a permit to carry a concealed gun, you should also have already found a lawyer who handles firearm self-defense cases; and his card should be in your wallet right now. Don't talk with anyone else about what happened. Some lawyers advise you to NEVER talk with the police. Not just in the few minutes after an incident but NEVER. An innocent person (YOU) can be hung by his/her own seemingly innocent words. For example, suppose a murder happens and you tell the police truthfully that you were 20 miles away, but there is no EVIDENCE of that. Then suppose a witness makes an honest mistake and genuinely but incorrectly says he saw you two blocks from the murder. Your talking (and telling the truth) has you caught in a perceived "lie" that will look bad and help convict you. If you had not talked there would only be a witness putting you in the area. There are many other risks that talking opens up. For example, the police may make a genuine mistake and misquote what you said. A policeman once commented: "Going into a interview with an experienced LEO thinking you can win is like going up against a pro boxer and expecting to win. It is naive pride." http://www.mouseguns.com/tactics/seltac.htm Thanks for reading and helping out. :ok:

Atahualpa | 03-06-2009 02:56 PM
Re: Legal Liability and Defensive Firearms Use - Don't Forget Castle Doctrine Law...the necessary companion to Concealed Carry. http://loneranger2008.wordpress.com/...word-for-word/ "Senate Bill 378 also provides immunity from civil liability for a personal injury or death resulting from the use of force or deadly force to a defendant who was justified under the law in using such force or deadly force."

koyaanisqatsi | 03-06-2009 03:17 PM
Re: Legal Liability and Defensive Firearms Use - Don't Forget Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1611283) Castle Doctrine Law...the necessary companion to Concealed Carry. http://loneranger2008.wordpress.com/...word-for-word/ "Senate Bill 378 also provides immunity from civil liability for a personal injury or death resulting from the use of force or deadly force to a defendant who was justified under the law in using such force or deadly force."
Thanks Atahualpa, I researched the states that have adopted such laws ... Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, and Texas have adopted Castle Doctrine statutes other states (Montana, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Washington, and Wyoming) are currently considering "Stand Your Ground" laws of their own. also North Carolina Use of deadly physical force against an intruder. (a) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence is justified in using any degree of force that the occupant reasonably believes is necessary, including deadly force, against an intruder to prevent a forcible entry into the home or residence or to terminate the intruder's unlawful entry (i) if the occupant reasonably apprehends that the intruder may kill or inflict serious bodily harm to the occupant or others in the home or residence, or (ii) if the occupant reasonably believes that the intruder intends to commit a felony in the home or residence. (b) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence does not have a duty to retreat from an intruder in the circumstances described in this section. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine_in_the_US Very good to KNOW. :bear_thumb:

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