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- - Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=442808)

nickelless | 01-26-2010 03:11 AM
Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... I did some heavy browsing at a gun show over the weekend, probably getting another 9mm first, and trying to narrow down my choice among three guns: Taurus 24-7 Pro Series-DS, American Tactical CS9 or CZ C24. I started a thread on here last week asking which guns would be the best and worst by caliber, and since it looks like these three (according to previous posts) are making the "good" list, I thought I'd get y'all's opinions on the best among these three before I buy. I'd also like opinions on the Taurus 605--the lightest .357 I've ever seen--as well as the Ruger Mark III 10101 Bull .22 semi-auto, Charter 2000 Bulldog Pug SS.357 and the Taurus M94 .22. Also, Glock is probably out of my price range with most of their pieces, but just how short is the trigger pull on a G17?

skyvike | 01-26-2010 07:00 AM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... The trigger pull on the glock is not "short" at all. It's a little odd because it's not as crisp as other semiautos but you get used to it. I'd almost describe it as a very, very light double action revolver kind of trigger. It's capable of more accurate fire than most average shooters can achieve with any gun. In a gunfight, your fine motor skills go out the window, no matter how well trained you think you are or how much you practice. Adrenalin does that to you. If you practice how you WILL (whether you like/believe ii or not) shoot in an actual gunfight, you'll use what Rex Applegate calls the "convulsive grip" which means you squees the whole gun with all your finger 'til it fires. With practice, squeezing with the whole hand helps keep the weapon steady. We do not propose to hit a silver dollar at 50 feet. We hope to hit a pie plate at 10 feet. For that, the standard Glock trigger is more than adequate, and very safe. It is operated almost exactly like a revolver (i.e. no switchable safety) except it has a higher magazine capacity. 2.5 pound "glass rod" triggers are for paper punchers. The Glock has few moving parts compared to other autos and requires almost zero lubrication so there's not a bunch of oil/grease on it to collect dirt. You probably won't live long enough to wear it out even if you never get in a gun fight. From a 22 year Glock owner (had one of the first 17's to come out) and current owner of 5.5 9mm Glocks... The only reason for me to buy another 9mm would be a Browning High Power, but only for fun/sentimental reasons.... :36_1_32v::36_1_32v::36_1_32v:

skyvike | 01-26-2010 09:02 AM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... If you check out gunbroker, you'll see that the price of Glocks is dropping along with most firearms. I bought a Glock last fall on Gunbroker for $425 - It's 3rd Gen, almost new, and came with one high cap magazine. Plenty of first gen law enforcement trade-ins you can get for less than $350....

wallew | 01-26-2010 09:16 AM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... What Skyvike said. Here's a guy with G22's at $330 (cop turn in's) and they come with nite sites and ONE 15 round mag. Caliber is .40 S&W. http://www.summitgunbroker.com/Glock_22.html CDNN sells new Glock factory mags for $20. http://www.cdnninvestments.com/glock.html Yes, the trigger is a little long. IF you were a revolver shooter, it would be an easy transition. And with the 3.5 lb trigger, it's a sweet shooter. Can't go wrong with virtually any Glock. Hope that helps.

livtocruz | 01-26-2010 09:24 AM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Check out the Bersa Thunder 9, Ultra Compact. short trigger pull, smooth. Nice conceal carry. http://www.bersafirearmsusa.com/bers...ro-series.html Can be picked up for less than $400 if you shop around. I ended up getting mine at Cabelas for $359.99 before Christmas after some wheeling and dealing. Actually they had the same model in a 40 cal but, I wanted the 9mm which was $50 more. Talked them into selling the 9mm for the same price. It has a built in trigger guard. A small key locks it so it can't be fired. no other guard needed.

skyvike | 01-26-2010 11:22 AM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 2147047) What Skyvike said. Here's a guy with G22's at $330 (cop turn in's) and they come with nite sites and ONE 15 round mag. Caliber is .40 S&W. http://www.summitgunbroker.com/Glock_22.html CDNN sells new Glock factory mags for $20. http://www.cdnninvestments.com/glock.html Yes, the trigger is a little long. IF you were a revolver shooter, it would be an easy transition. And with the 3.5 lb trigger, it's a sweet shooter. Can't go wrong with virtually any Glock. Hope that helps.
GMTA! :emotions16::emotions16::emotions16:

mick silver | 01-26-2010 11:34 AM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... I have the TAURUS 24/7 PRO™ 9MM COMPACT WITH TITANIUM it a real nice gun and it lite . i have put over 200 round into the gun and have had no trouble with the gun . it easy to clean .... http://www.taurususa.com/product-det...eadcrumbseries=

GoldWampum | 01-26-2010 12:03 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... My own choice in auto for a personal defense reliability and repeatability arm is as follows: 1. Springfield XD 2. Glock as a very close second. They've corrected problems with each generation. Gen 4 is out now and corrects a recoil spring fatigue problem. Or so they say. 3. Sig P series. 4. Browning Hi-Power or a well tuned 1911. Take your pick. I like that the browning is cam lock. 5. The rest. This is especially if you run a lot of rounds through it, as I do. If you are going to shoot 2 boxes a year and just save it for defense, "the rest" that don't have problems for a thousand or two rounds will do I suppose.

renegade_01 | 01-26-2010 12:15 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... The Keltec PF9 looks like a good choice too. I am a Glock guy and I am thinking about getting a Keltec PF9 after hearing the positive review form Nutnfancy. I just picked up a Keltec sub2000 in 9mm the other day and it takes Glock mags, so I am more inclined to pickup another Glock in 9mm to complement the Keltec. :ok:

meatman | 01-26-2010 12:46 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... heres a 9mm for you comes with a 50 round mag and 2- 70 round drums http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=155044668

Rebel Yarr | 01-26-2010 01:17 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... xnay on the Ruger MK III - that thing is nice to shoot but the biggest POS to clean - would totally pass on that thing...

Heimdhal | 01-26-2010 01:32 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... The PF9 is a good one for CCW. I've got a friend who carries a glock 29 and she really likes it, but its still a little bulky width wise. I can add a big +1 for the Bersa Thunder 9 UC. I've got the .45 version (which is slightly bigger) and love it. It does get a bit heavy sometimes, but it is a realy nice, smoother shooter. I hope to pick up the PF9 in the near future for those times when I want a little less weight and bulk.

Ag_man | 01-26-2010 01:42 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... I'm in the market for a full size 9mm. I've looked at the Glock 19, the Springfield XDM, FN9 and a CZ. My dealer is steering me toward the FN, as he really likes them, but I think I'm going with either the G-19 or the XD/XDM. I found out what shyvike said about Glock triggers, but with practice, I would get used to it. Cost is a consideration, but not an overriding one, I only plan on owning one full size, high capacity 9, I have 2 other smaller ones. Also plan on getting a Bersa .45, for the money, I don't see how I could go wrong.

kitsune | 01-26-2010 01:49 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
The Keltec PF9 looks like a good choice too. I am a Glock guy and I am thinking about getting a Keltec PF9 after hearing the positive review form Nutnfancy.
Now I'm going to get one too, thanks :biggrin: The PF9 is 0.04" skinnier than the Kahr PM9?? Width is the only reason I was going to stray from Glock!

nickelless | 01-26-2010 09:51 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... So if you guys had to choose one gun among Taurus 24-7 Pro Series-DS, American Tactical CS9 or CZ C24, which one would you pick and why?

GoldWampum | 01-26-2010 10:02 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Given those limitations I would choose the Taurus. It's a nice defense gun. While not the best manufacturer, they are good. Taurus is usually a good bang for the buck.

kitsune | 01-26-2010 10:06 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... CZ-24 like the antique? I'd go with GW on the Taurus, but not sure why you came to a choice of those 3 models.

nickelless | 01-26-2010 11:00 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
Originally Posted by kitsune (Post 2148312) CZ-24 like the antique? I'd go with GW on the Taurus, but not sure why you came to a choice of those 3 models.
Not sure if the CZ was like the antique, but it was made of stainless steel like the Taurus and the others. I'm wanting to pick from these three models because I like they way they fit my hands and they're within my price range. My PF9 that I've been carrying is too small for my hands.

Haltiat | 01-26-2010 11:25 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... I'm not sure I see the point of a light .357 magnum. You need a heavy steel pistol with at least a 4 inch barrel to really take advantage of that round. Alloy frames and/or short barrels work better with reduced loads. Heck, some ".357" loads that are tailored to those kinds of light, compact "magnums" pack less punch than a stout .40s&w.

wallew | 01-27-2010 02:04 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2148427) I'm not sure I see the point of a light .357 magnum. You need a heavy steel pistol with at least a 4 inch barrel to really take advantage of that round. Alloy frames and/or short barrels work better with reduced loads. Heck, some ".357" loads that are tailored to those kinds of light, compact "magnums" pack less punch than a stout .40s&w.
H, Pretty much understand the sentiment. Let me see if this makes any sense. Heavier and faster than a 9mm. With the same recoil. Goes through barriers better than 9mm. NOT as good as a .40 S&W IMHO (my choice, though I can swap in the .357 sig barrel and let'er rip).

Haltiat | 01-27-2010 02:16 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Yeah, in most cases you get a little more with a downloaded .357 than with a 9mm, except in terms of capacity. With a .40 caliber Glock you can have it all. Capacity, .22lr, 9x19, .40 s&w and .357 sig. That said if you're willing to use a 6 inch barrel and handload a 9mm can hang with a .357 sig.

mk3hunter | 01-27-2010 02:46 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... IMHO the 3 9mm's I would get are Glock 17 XDm Glock 19 then last a ruger SR9 any ruger 22 is great!! overbuilt wonders

Rebel Yarr | 01-27-2010 03:15 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... I guess so many are familiar with the CZ-52 that they think that they are all old as those....CZ been making firearms for over a century...maybe you should check their site CZ USA....as they make some of the finest 9 mm's for the price... I don't know what a C24 is but I assume the model given is inaccurate.... A Taurus over a CZ? what is this forum coming to?!?!?!

GoldWampum | 01-27-2010 04:35 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel Yarr (Post 2149411) I guess so many are familiar with the CZ-52 that they think that they are all old as those....CZ been making firearms for over a century...maybe you should check their site CZ USA....as they make some of the finest 9 mm's for the price... I don't know what a C24 is but I assume the model given is inaccurate.... A Taurus over a CZ? what is this forum coming to?!?!?!
It's senses. They make a good copycat of anything at a reduced price. Thus the bang for the buck. The man is cash strapped. Taurus makes sense. CZ is just OK IMO. I personally don't like CZ at all. EDIT TO SAY: I am assuming that since it's not the old models and has a metal frame that he is referring to the CZ 75, which is known for loose slide characteristics that are pretty much uncorrectable and poor internal machining. The machining is correctable of course but why bother on a new gun, when something with better machining and slide characteristics is already available?

nickelless | 01-27-2010 06:17 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... OK, I've settled on a Glock 17 because of a good deal. So my next question is, what recommendations do you guys have on a .357 for side-carry (concealed)?

Haltiat | 01-27-2010 07:58 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldWampum (Post 2149559) EDIT TO SAY: I am assuming that since it's not the old models and has a metal frame that he is referring to the CZ 75, which is known for loose slide characteristics that are pretty much uncorrectable and poor internal machining. The machining is correctable of course but why bother on a new gun, when something with better machining and slide characteristics is already available?
Apparently you heard some bad info. Some of the pre-B and the "A" series CZ 75's had a comparatively loose slide to frame fit. This was a good thing, it helped ensure reliability. The barrel to slide fit has always been excellent and that is where you get your accuracy from with this particular action. Think about it, the barrel locks to the slide and the slide is where the sights are. Either way the "B" models all have a tightened up slide to frame fit and retain the excellent accuracy and reliability CZ's are known for. "Poor internal machining" is just B.S. Everything is where it needs to be dimensionally, the only thing they don't do is polish the non-working surfaces.

branshew | 01-27-2010 09:15 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelless (Post 2149758) OK, I've settled on a Glock 17 because of a good deal. So my next question is, what recommendations do you guys have on a .357 for side-carry (concealed)?
I am assuming that you want a revolver vs. a .357 Sig? There seems to be alot of opinions on this subject (as with every other subject), but there are 2 primary schools of thought. First, as was mentioned previously in this thread, the .357 doesn't make for a great shooting experience in a lightweight concealed carry revolver. The load is hot and can be punishing on the hands shooting it with a snub nosed revolver. Muzzle flash is high (problems with night shooting), and excessive muzzle flip from the .357 cartridge in a small revolver is heavy which doesn't help with follow-up shots. Many in this school think that you can get near as good results with .38 +P in the snubnose w/o the side effects. The second school of thought is that all of the above is true, but the extra power of the .357 is worth it and you won't care about any of it when it comes time to use the weapon in a defensive situation. I just recently bought my first revolver and went through all of the gyrations before making a decision. Before making this decision, I shot several small frame revolvers in .38 and .357. including the S&W 642 (.38), Ruger SP101 (.357) and a S&W M&P scandium frame (.357). Like others, I found the recoil in the .357 to be more than I wanted in the light frame of the scandium. I have heard that some loads aren't suitable for the scandium frame due to the bullet vibrating forward in the casing from the recoil. Recoil was better in the SP101, but still not great. I found the 642 to be most comfortable. That's not to say that you couldn't get a .357 and shoot .38 in it. I toyed with that idea, but I am a firm believer that you should practice with your carry weapon and load. With that in mind, I eventually settled on a S&W 442 .38. I am extremely happy with the choice. I would suggest that if you do get a .357, get a steel frame revolver. It will be heavier to carry, but less punishing to shoot. As to fit and finish, I would put S&W and Ruger on a level field here. I like the new-school looks of the SP101, but looks aren't going to make a difference. I found the grips to be lacking on the SP101 in terms of comfort. This is part of the reason I went w/ the 442 - it felt like a natural extension of my hand. Taurus would be a close 2nd. I probably would pass on a Rossi or Charter.

nickelless | 01-27-2010 09:23 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... What if I had porting added to lessen the kick of the .357? What I was wanting was the ability to shoot both .38 and .357 with the same gun.

branshew | 01-27-2010 09:39 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Porting would help, most likely with muzzle flip, but probably not as much with recoil. It won't turn a .357 into a .38. (Funny you mention that because I actually called Magnaport today to talk about having my 442 ported and a new front sight fitted). I also like the concept of dual cartridge capability - it ups the value when SHTF if you can shoot two types of cartridge.

Silver001 | 01-27-2010 09:52 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Check out the warenty on the Bersa's, I have the Ultra Conceal Thunder (UC9mm) it works like a clock, I also have the Firestorm 22 long rifle made by the same factory sweet shooting both of them. They both run great on any brand of ammo I have fed them. But the warenty is great, as long as you own the guns and quick trurn around if there is ever a problem with them.

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mk3hunter | 01-27-2010 10:04 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... I would go with the ruger gp100 and pick your barrel size. The gp100 is like most rugers...overbuilt. Stay away from the S&w 642 snubb nose revolvers. I have a 642 for 38sp only and she bucks (flips up) with the 38sp A 357 in that platform is just stupid.....very very hard to control....the gun is just too lite for the 357 caliber. The ruger gp100 is heavier and will give you better control. My ruger single action army.....is a dream shooting the mighty 357. (but not a serious carry gun......although I do carry it from time to time):RockOn::bull-smile: imho

Haltiat | 01-27-2010 10:16 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelless (Post 2150125) What if I had porting added to lessen the kick of the .357? What I was wanting was the ability to shoot both .38 and .357 with the same gun.
Porting will make the noise and blast worse, it will also bleed a little velocity in a gun that already has a barrel that's too short for the cartridge. If you're going to buy a .38 by all means by a .357 instead and put .38's through it. You'll have a strong gun that can shoot two calibers if you have to. If you really want to shoot magnums more than .38's than get a full sized .357. Your ballistics will be better and your shooting experience will be better. It's honestly not that hard to conceal a revolver with a 4 inch barrel. If you can carry a fullsize auto like a Glock 17 you can do it. If you're one of those guys who just doesn't understand guns are supposed to be comforting not comfortable you probably won't like a 2 inch barrel any better.

nickelless | 01-27-2010 10:32 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2150274) Porting will make the noise and blast worse, it will also bleed a little velocity in a gun that already has a barrel that's too short for the cartridge. If you're going to buy a .38 by all means by a .357 instead and put .38's through it. You'll have a strong gun that can shoot two calibers if you have to. If you really want to shoot magnums more than .38's than get a full sized .357. Your ballistics will be better and your shooting experience will be better. It's honestly not that hard to conceal a revolver with a 4 inch barrel. If you can carry a fullsize auto like a Glock 17 you can do it. If you're one of those guys who just doesn't understand guns are supposed to be comforting not comfortable you probably won't like a 2 inch barrel any better.
How hard is it to conceal-carry a 4-inch barrel on the side? I used SOB-carry with my old Taurus 92 but side carry for my Kel-Tec PF9.

GoldWampum | 01-27-2010 10:34 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2149934) Apparently you heard some bad info. Some of the pre-B and the "A" series CZ 75's had a comparatively loose slide to frame fit. This was a good thing, it helped ensure reliability. The barrel to slide fit has always been excellent and that is where you get your accuracy from with this particular action. Think about it, the barrel locks to the slide and the slide is where the sights are. Either way the "B" models all have a tightened up slide to frame fit and retain the excellent accuracy and reliability CZ's are known for. "Poor internal machining" is just B.S. Everything is where it needs to be dimensionally, the only thing they don't do is polish the non-working surfaces.
I don't argue that the barrel fit is good for accuracy. I think it's a fine target pistol. Better arguably than some of the quality personal defense pistols. All guns have weaker spots. As far as the OP, I would suggest as usual that he shoot them all if possible, because in the end, it's a personal thing. For every sacred cow there are explanations for the weak points. That's true of the reputations of more than a few guns in my opinion. That's not the topic here though. It is opinions on some specific models. I gave mine, I accept yours. I would probably grab the Taurus of the choices given. I don't like sloppy machine work and an inch or two of accuracy isn't going to mean squat when I need the gun most. Beyond that though it's a matter of trusting your life to that gun. Everything critical in tolerance is a very broad brush for painting acceptable machine work. What about the things you DON'T think might happen inside that machine?

Rebel Yarr | 01-27-2010 11:03 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldWampum (Post 2149559) CZ is just OK IMO.
Heresy!!! 1234 more chars

Haltiat | 01-27-2010 11:26 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelless (Post 2150316) How hard is it to conceal-carry a 4-inch barrel on the side? I used SOB-carry with my old Taurus 92 but side carry for my Kel-Tec PF9.
That's going to depend on your build and your holster but it isn't really the barrel length that gets you, it's the width of the gun and the length of the handle that will cause it to print the most. If you mean an IWB holster on the side of your hip that's just about the worst place to conceal anything in terms of printing. The good news is that everybody has a cell phone on their belt these days so everybody prints something. If by side carry you mean a vertical shoulder rig that will hide the gun pretty well if your jacket or coat will. I would advise you to consider wearing an IWB holster around the front so the barrel is basically between your legs. All crude jokes aside this is really the most practical way to conceal any large handgun even with light clothes and has a number of tactical advantages over most other styles of carry. If I were you I'd either borrow a gun from a friend or buy a toy gun of similar size and shape to what you want and try wearing it. If you are determined to carry a full sized handgun the weight and comfort issues are mostly between your ears and can be overcome. Concealment is more objective because it determines exactly what others will see. Your draw is important too. For instance if you have a big gut wearing any gun IWB around the front probably isn't going to work for you and if you're very skinny an IWB on the hip will probably print like crazy.

Haltiat | 01-27-2010 11:40 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldWampum (Post 2150322) As far as the OP, I would suggest as usual that he shoot them all if possible, because in the end, it's a personal thing.
That's always sound advice. Quote:
I don't like sloppy machine work and an inch or two of accuracy isn't going to mean squat when I need the gun most. Beyond that though it's a matter of trusting your life to that gun. Everything critical in tolerance is a very broad brush for painting acceptable machine work. What about the things you DON'T think might happen inside that machine?
I have to ask, have you ever ran a lathe or milling machine? Because those tools do not leave smooth surfaces. I have had CZ's apart on my bench before, what you see inside isn't sloppy machining, it's tool marks. Tool marks from machines that are well run. Like I said in my previous post what isn't being done is polishing non-working surfaces. Every gun from every manufacturer has tool marks when it is made. From there it is a matter of how much they invest in polishing and most guns still have tool marks in a few places by the time they are sold. The presence of tool marks has no bearing on dimensional accuracy because if you are going to polish something you need to machine it oversize so it will still be in tolerance after you have polished it anyway. A shiny gun just means it was left oversize during the machining process and then was polished down.

GoldWampum | 01-28-2010 01:46 AM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2150419) That's always sound advice. I have to ask, have you ever ran a lathe or milling machine? Because those tools do not leave smooth surfaces. I have had CZ's apart on my bench before, what you see inside isn't sloppy machining, it's tool marks. Tool marks from machines that are well run. Like I said in my previous post what isn't being done is polishing non-working surfaces. Every gun from every manufacturer has tool marks when it is made. From there it is a matter of how much they invest in polishing and most guns still have tool marks in a few places by the time they are sold. The presence of tool marks has no bearing on dimensional accuracy because if you are going to polish something you need to machine it oversize so it will still be in tolerance after you have polished it anyway. A shiny gun just means it was left oversize during the machining process and then was polished down.
Hey, if you accept it then so be it. I gave my opinion. You've given yours. Again, just saying it's tool marks is a broad brush. Yes, I've seen it broken down. I prefer the Taurus. What the smooth surface means is good finish work. Attention to detail. The CZ is a well thought out design and a decent pistol. It's just down my list for what I think are obvious reasons. I'm not going to sit here and see who can piss higher. If you like it, love it, and get some more of it. This thread is not about us.

Haltiat | 01-28-2010 03:30 AM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... I use a Glock. I like Taurus too. I'm debating your interpretation of a manufacturing process, not your choice in sidearms and I'm doing it for the sake of the OP so he has good information to go by. I agree good finish work and even aesthetic design often indicate an overall investment in the quality of the whole product but naturally that isn't always the case. Some manufacturers make a product that looks great but doesn't function so they can build it cheap and sell it for a high price, others make a product that's rough and nasty but runs like a champ. Most honest manufacturers find a happy middle ground to provide a quality product at a reasonable price. If you want to talk about quality though then we should discuss all the ways in which the majority of modern firearms are cheaped out, from materials to manufacturing processes. Even my Glock was designed to be the king of cheap with its polymer frame, it's action and lock-up... you don't even want to know how much one costs to buy versus how much one costs to make. Fortunately they work well enough and have a long enough service life that they're worth the expense.

Haltiat | 01-28-2010 05:05 AM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2150630) I use a Glock. I like Taurus too. I'm debating your interpretation of a manufacturing process, not your choice in sidearms and I'm doing it for the sake of the OP so he has good information to go by. I agree good finish work and even aesthetic design often indicate an overall investment in the quality of the whole product but naturally that isn't always the case. Some manufacturers make a product that looks great but doesn't function so they can build it cheap and sell it for a high price, others make a product that's rough and nasty but runs like a champ. Most honest manufacturers find a happy middle ground to provide a quality product at a reasonable price. If you want to talk about quality though then we should discuss all the ways in which the majority of modern firearms are cheaped out, from materials to manufacturing processes. Even my Glock was designed to be the king of cheap with its polymer frame, it's action and lock-up... you don't even want to know how much one costs to buy versus how much one costs to make. Fortunately they work well enough and have a long enough service life that they're worth the expense.
ETA: Why guess? CZ has nothing to hide in terms of manufacturing capability. http://www.czub.cz/np/index.php?lang=en

renegade_01 | 01-28-2010 08:55 AM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Having owned a Ruger p89, Bersa Thunder 380, Springfield 1911, Glock 23, and S&W 442, the Glock is my favorite. I like the coating they use on the components, and I like the parts that are available. I had jamming issues with my Bersa, so I sold it and recovered what I had spent on it...the p89 was ok but a bit clunky for me. I'm pretty slim and the glock conceals great via Bianchi carrylock 82 strong-side with a dickies T and white hanes shirt underneath.

GoldWampum | 01-28-2010 09:53 AM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2150630) I use a Glock. I like Taurus too. I'm debating your interpretation of a manufacturing process, not your choice in sidearms and I'm doing it for the sake of the OP so he has good information to go by. No you're not. You are doing it for you, cause you got caught with your pants down. I agree good finish work and even aesthetic design often indicate an overall investment in the quality of the whole product but naturally that isn't always the case. Some manufacturers make a product that looks great but doesn't function so they can build it cheap and sell it for a high price, others make a product that's rough and nasty but runs like a champ. Most honest manufacturers find a happy middle ground to provide a quality product at a reasonable price. Broad brushes again. I don't like poor finish work, if I can have better finish work in the same price range. It indicates better attn to detail in manufacturing. Guns have high internal temp's, pressures, oils and powder deposits. They leave varnish behind. Rough surfaces are subject to collecting such things and can build deposits or be harder to clean. There is no reason to like that. If you want to talk about quality though then we should discuss all the ways in which the majority of modern firearms are cheaped out, from materials to manufacturing processes. Even my Glock was designed to be the king of cheap with its polymer frame, it's action and lock-up... you don't even want to know how much one costs to buy versus how much one costs to make. Fortunately they work well enough and have a long enough service life that they're worth the expense.
This has nothing to do with the topic and just clutters the OP's thread. Although I'm not a glock fan, and prefer the xd, the lock up on both is superior to the guns being discussed. The fact that better lockup can be acheived inexpensively is good. The old styles are more subject to loose breech. You should be talking shotguns, since that's the approach you are taking to the discussion. There is really nothing more for me to discuss with you.

nickelless | 01-29-2010 04:55 AM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... So much for limiting my choices...I'm settling on both a Glock 17 AND this sweet model of .38 Special (not this particular auction, but the model of revolver--EAA Windicator): http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=155418824

shades2 | 01-29-2010 05:55 AM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Consider a SIG with .357SIG and .9mm interchangeable barrels / spring. Best of both worlds. Practice with the 9mm barrel and carry with .357SIG

gypsybiker45 | 01-29-2010 05:55 AM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... If it goes bang, can shoot accurate 10ft away, and all the parts move properly, thats your answer.

renegade_01 | 01-29-2010 08:53 AM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... I'd go with the Glock 19 if you want the G17, would be a lil easier to conceal. I like the quality of Glock mags too.

nickelless | 01-29-2010 11:08 AM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
Originally Posted by renegade_01 (Post 2152465) I'd go with the Glock 19 if you want the G17, would be a lil easier to conceal. I like the quality of Glock mags too.
The seller didn't have a G19, and he has six extra magazines for the G17, so I'm sold on this one while I can get it. I'm about to switch to an EAA Windicator .38 for my main carry piece anyway and just keep the G17 as a backup.

renegade_01 | 01-29-2010 03:02 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelless (Post 2152666) The seller didn't have a G19, and he has six extra magazines for the G17, so I'm sold on this one while I can get it. I'm about to switch to an EAA Windicator .38 for my main carry piece anyway and just keep the G17 as a backup.
shit go ahead and get it. Throw in a 3.5lbs trigger connector and a extended slide stop, you will be well served.

markt | 01-29-2010 06:53 PM
Re: Trying to decide between three 9mm's and want an opinion on other calibers... I like my Ruger 454 Casull Magnum revolver. I like that it can either shoot 2000fps solids that can go through a hog lengthwise, or I can shoot ancient old 800fps 45LC bullets with a 137 year history of reliably dropping bad guys in their tracks.

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