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electric-amish | 03-06-2010 10:09 PM
Collapse of AR Market by Josh This has so many sort of funny ideas going I thought it worth a Post. E-A Huffington Post by the way---:23_28_100s: Josh Sugarmann Executive director of the Violence Policy Center in Washington, DC. Posted: March 4, 2010 01:55 PM The Collapse of the AR-15 Assault Weapon Market One of the greatest talents of the National Rifle Association and the gun industry has been their ability exploit high-profile events to pump up gun sales: Bill Clinton, the Brady Bill, the federal assault weapons "ban," Y2K, September 11th, and now, of course, Barack Obama. Regardless of the event, the solution remains the same: buy a gun, preferably��if industry and gun fan mags are any indication��an AR-15 assault rifle. Left unstated by the gun lobby, and virtually unnoticed by the news media, is that when gun sales do rise (and that isn't always the case despite the gun lobby's best efforts), they eventually drop��sometimes precipitously. And sometimes, as Michael Kassnar, president of AR-15 manufacturer KBI/Charles Daly, explains, there's a "market collapse." Kassnar should know��he's just shut his business' doors. According to the March 1, 2010, edition of The New Gun Week: One factor that contributed to the company's closure was what Kassner called a "collapse" of the market in mid-2009 for semiautomatic sport utility rifles, the so-called "black guns" designed on the AR-15 platform. In other words, AR-15 assault rifles, but let us continue. He said the rush to purchase those firearms came to a halt in about July, leaving him with a "warehouse full of guns nobody wanted." Orders for about $8 million worth of firearms were cancelled, he said, leaving KBI/Charles Daly essentially high and dry for the second half of the 2009 sales year. It appeared that the public became less fearful that the Obama administration was going to come after semi-autos, so the panic buying came to an end, Kassnar said.... "The consumer just stopped buying," he said....the "sales blitz lasted about eight months." Not to worry. In the boom and bust economy that represents gun manufacturing in the U.S.��despite the long-term trends of declining gun ownership ��the NRA and gun industry are always on the lookout for another manufactured crisis to exploit and reel in the "panic" buyer.

elroy | 03-06-2010 10:21 PM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Quote:
Originally Posted by electric-amish (Post 2214329) Not to worry. In the boom and bust economy that represents gun manufacturing in the U.S.––despite the long-term trends of declining gun ownership ––the NRA and gun industry are always on the lookout for another manufactured crisis to exploit and reel in the "panic" buyer.
Declining gun ownership? Are you #@&%*! kidding me? I guess they missed the story about Americans buying 14 MILLION guns in 2009.

GRP | 03-06-2010 10:29 PM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Haa Haa,,, I needed a good laugh tonight!:4_1_72: :favorites8: GRP

latitude22 | 03-06-2010 10:31 PM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Gee maybe people just ran out of money.

TechGuy | 03-06-2010 10:44 PM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh AR market is such a specific market... This doesn't surprise me at all, everyone that wanted an AR blew their wad. That being said, I don't think I have EVER seen a KBI ar.

electric-amish | 03-07-2010 01:02 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Quote:
Originally Posted by latitude22 (Post 2214359) Gee maybe people just ran out of money.
9.8% unemployement dosn't help much for expensive luxury items. I have never heard of a Charles Daily AR. E-A

CQC McDuck | 03-07-2010 01:17 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Quote:
Originally Posted by electric-amish (Post 2214487) 9.8% unemployement dosn't help much for expensive luxury items. I have never heard of a Charles Daily AR. E-A
http://www.ar15pro.com/category/800-...15_rifles.aspx I never heard of them either until this article. No demand due to lack of advertising perhaps?

maximumrebel1 | 03-07-2010 01:20 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh This tells a different story. http://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/u...check-2009.jpg

Irons | 03-07-2010 01:22 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh 1 Attachment(s) My little AR carbine is alive and well, bad news for prarie dogs! Attachment 88680

AG Capone | 03-07-2010 06:02 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Damn, I can't believe Charles Daly went under. Kassner was working on importing a civi-legal version of the Tavor assault rifle. I was saving up my pennies to get one...

<SLV> | 03-07-2010 07:17 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh I wonder if CDNN will be liquidating these ARs for $299...

desertjack | 03-07-2010 07:27 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Charles Daly was just an importer, these companies seem to come and go ie. Interarms, FIE etc. The firearms they were importing will simply be imported by another company, might even be the same people under a new name.

Agrippa | 03-07-2010 07:39 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh The "Declining gun ownership" study they quoted ended in 2006, which is when the up-tick in NICS started -- so it tells us nothing of what is going on in recent years. It is conceivable that the percentage of people owning guns has continued to decline: many gun-owners of my acquaintance have expanded their collections since B.O. was elected, but none of the non-gun-owners have changed their colors.

General of Darkness | 03-07-2010 08:08 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh First off it's the Huffington Post a leftist commie RAG. Second off Josh Sugarmann, with a name like that what's not to trust. Sounds like a hit piece to give the pansies the warm an fuzzies that when TSHTF, they won't have to worry about their neighbor owning 20 AR's he only has 10. :bath:

Agfinger | 03-07-2010 08:24 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Probably some truth to it...The economy is in the crapper and most people that bought a new AR-15 did it because they were scared of what the Obama administration would propose vis-a-vis, so-called "assault weapons"... Since Obama has been fairly silent on the issue, the scare has died down....Since the scare is down then sales have dropped off... The NRA always need new boogeymen to keep the issue hyped and alive...Sometimes they are real, sometimes they are manufactured...

<SLV> | 03-07-2010 08:45 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh My local gun dealer confirms this article. He said that he can't sell an AR to break even. Everyone who wanted one bought one, and now his buyers don't have any money due to the economy. It is probably a combination of the two.

TechGuy | 03-07-2010 08:53 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Quote:
Originally Posted by Agfinger (Post 2214659) The NRA always need new boogeymen to keep the issue hyped and alive...Sometimes they are real, sometimes they are manufactured...
Ain't that the truth. I have received my 4th and 5th warnings to renew from GOA and NRA. Honestly, I am so tired of the weekly crap from both of them begging for new money or bleating about the pending confiscation blah blah blah that I really thinking about letting all my 'memberships' collapse and go away. The GOA isn't as bad as the NRA in the junk panic mail category, but still enough to be annoying. Stop sending me all that crap and do with my membership donation what you are supposed to... lobby for gun rights. I don't think either do anything with the original membership dues since they spend so much on bulky mailouts.

calsdad | 03-07-2010 09:02 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Quote:
Originally Posted by Agfinger (Post 2214659) Probably some truth to it...The economy is in the crapper and most people that bought a new AR-15 did it because they were scared of what the Obama administration would propose vis-a-vis, so-called "assault weapons"... Since Obama has been fairly silent on the issue, the scare has died down....Since the scare is down then sales have dropped off... The NRA always need new boogeymen to keep the issue hyped and alive...Sometimes they are real, sometimes they are manufactured...
I don't know why people keep insinuating that the NRA was driving the gun buying spree brought on by Obama's election. I know plenty of people who went out and bought guns before/during/after the election who knew NOTHING of the NRA and were simply paying attention to what was going on. From what I saw during the spree the NRA was an ignorant bystander during the whole thing and their hype of the Obama administration coming after gun rights was really not much different than anything they have been saying for years about govt. in general/the U.N./ etc. People who think the NRA drove the gun buying spree really weren't paying very close attention.

meatman | 03-07-2010 09:13 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh 1st AR sales are way down and so are the prices 2nd you can not use one company going out of business for bad business management as a example. Lot of companies go under during the best of times because of poor management

Agfinger | 03-07-2010 09:17 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Quote:
Originally Posted by calsdad (Post 2214691) I don't know why people keep insinuating that the NRA was driving the gun buying spree brought on by Obama's election. I know plenty of people who went out and bought guns before/during/after the election who knew NOTHING of the NRA and were simply paying attention to what was going on. From what I saw during the spree the NRA was an ignorant bystander during the whole thing and their hype of the Obama administration coming after gun rights was really not much different than anything they have been saying for years about govt. in general/the U.N./ etc. People who think the NRA drove the gun buying spree really weren't paying very close attention.
Read what I said....I never said the "NRA drove the gun buying spree".. The NRA had almost nothing to do with the issue...Nada...Zilch. What I AM saying is that the NRA likes to manufacture or hype every single event into a new gun ban to increase their membership..

Elvis | 03-07-2010 09:25 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh A significant portion of what the NRA does, or any advocacy organization, is fundraising. No bucks, no Buck Rogers to quote The Right Stuff. And as a matter of fact, when a crisis comes up, the money comes in. So keeping everyone frightened is what almost ALL of them do. Period. My favorite is Sea Shepherd blowing the whistle on Greenpeace. http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-...-061220-1.html Say what you will about their cause, but at least they have guts. Anyways, the NRA is a certain percentage of hype. Not to say that the mission of safeguarding the Second Amendment isn't critical. The rewards of hyperbole are too great.

obilly | 03-07-2010 09:35 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh went to Tampa gun show on Saturday,,,,thousands were there,,,,,prices had came down on what i needed (clips) since last Tampa show,,,,, .380 was in short supply a box of 50 ran from $21-$32. saw nothing but high high prices on Ar's,,,,,beretta 9mm and .40 carbines were $779 ,was the 1st time i have seen it for under $800.

General of Darkness | 03-07-2010 11:48 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh BTW this doesn't take into considerations people buy other rifles etc. I've read about people that got into AR's as their first rifle, then after becoming enthusiastic got AK's, bolt actions, AR-10's or other 308 or shotguns the pistols etc. Remember, variety is the spice of life and being a sportsman provides a ton of it. :) BTW - If the industry is complaining it's their own damn fault, they gouged the living crap out of people when Obongo was nominated. So they're reaping what they sowed.

Lars Ragnarsson | 03-07-2010 01:05 PM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Went to the local Academy a couple days ago. They had a S&W M&P15 for somewhere around $769 or $789. That's about a $100 discount since before the election, and the prices got even higher right after. Quote:
Originally Posted by General of Darkness (Post 2214926) BTW - If the industry is complaining it's their own damn fault, they gouged the living crap out of people when Obongo was nominated. So they're reaping what they sowed.
No shit. I remember Bud's, who I really like dealing with, having the balls to auction off every black rifle they got their hands on right after the "election." F-em. On the other hand, Legal Transfers LLC http://ar15sa.fatcow.com/store/page2.html, kept their prices pretty reasonable - maybe a small increase. They just pre-warned you about possible half-year wait times.

Ag_man | 03-07-2010 01:23 PM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh QFT Quote:
Originally Posted by TechGuy (Post 2214684) Ain't that the truth. I have received my 4th and 5th warnings to renew from GOA and NRA. Honestly, I am so tired of the weekly crap from both of them begging for new money or bleating about the pending confiscation blah blah blah that I really thinking about letting all my 'memberships' collapse and go away. The GOA isn't as bad as the NRA in the junk panic mail category, but still enough to be annoying. Stop sending me all that crap and do with my membership donation what you are supposed to... lobby for gun rights. I don't think either do anything with the original membership dues since they spend so much on bulky mailouts.
+1 here. I'm a NRA, GOA, a member of IL Rifle Association and of IL Open Carry. I'm tired of all the junk mail too, there should be a way of opting out of the mailings. At least they don't have my phone number!

hypervel | 03-07-2010 01:38 PM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh I went to a manufacturer's site just last night that was warning of 3-4 week delays. I don't recall the message being there 2 months ago....and I only had to wait for the barrel and trigger to get to them.

Spirit of '76 | 03-07-2010 01:43 PM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh So, clearly corrections in altered or manipulated markets are defined as a collapse regardless of medium in exchange. Anyone who payed the excessive prices for an AR in that duration is, well, incorrigible; for businesses that heavily invested in this its shows the they, too, exhibited the same levels of greed that the real estate market saw in its 'boom.'

<SLV> | 03-07-2010 01:59 PM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Ragnarsson (Post 2215011) No shit. I remember Bud's, who I really like dealing with, having the balls to auction off every black rifle they got their hands on right after the "election." F-em.
Relax. You want to get market value for your precious metals, right? At that time the market value of firearms was changing rapidly enough to merit an auction so that the true market value could be settled. Supply and demand.

Lars Ragnarsson | 03-07-2010 04:09 PM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 2215075) Relax. You want to get market value for your precious metals, right? At that time the market value of firearms was changing rapidly enough to merit an auction so that the true market value could be settled. Supply and demand.
You're right - it was clearly ECON 101 - the market drove the price. And there were several players involved to shape it into what it had become. You had folks that paid attention to past history and hedged against an Obama or Clinton presidency, and stocked up early. Then you had the people that "woke up" after the election, and decided to get in while they could. And at the same time, some in the first camp possibly decided to pad their inventory while they could. In both camps you no doubt had speculators. I remember seeing a post on another board from a guy who bought 10 Dracos when they were being offered at $329, saying he was going to make a killing on them "when they passed more gun control laws." Maybe one day, but he probably needs to be willing to hold them for a few years - and still there's no guarantee on turning a profit. So those that waited will make out - if they have any money left. But they took a risk by waiting, a risk I personally wasn't willing to take. In the end, it worked out for the best - I firmly believe that if Obummer, Rahmbo, et al had any inclination at all about implementing gun control (which I also think they did), they quickly realized it would be a losing proposition.

Mad_Max | 03-07-2010 04:17 PM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Quote:
Originally Posted by CQC McDuck (Post 2214500) http://www.ar15pro.com/category/800-...15_rifles.aspx I never heard of them either until this article. No demand due to lack of advertising perhaps?
So much for my "lifetime warranty"..:36_1_25: Not a bad rifle, equal to a stag.

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.375 | 03-07-2010 04:18 PM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Maybe Obama is waiting for round 2.

TechGuy | 03-07-2010 04:20 PM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Quote:
Originally Posted by .375 (Post 2215260) Maybe Obama is waiting for round 2.
Doubtful in the current environment. If they do it, they will do it directly after a big 'event', and the people will demand it.

leadfoot | 03-07-2010 04:42 PM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvis (Post 2214714) A significant portion of what the NRA does, or any advocacy organization, is fundraising. No bucks, no Buck Rogers to quote The Right Stuff. And as a matter of fact, when a crisis comes up, the money comes in. So keeping everyone frightened is what almost ALL of them do. Period. Anyways, the NRA is a certain percentage of hype. Not to say that the mission of safeguarding the Second Amendment isn't critical. The rewards of hyperbole are too great.
Baaaaaaaaa. Sheep with guns. Sheep without guns. Tis the same. All are manipulated.

<SLV> | 03-07-2010 04:44 PM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Quote:
Originally Posted by .375 (Post 2215260) Maybe Obama is waiting for round 2.
Did you miss him with the first round? :tongue_ma:

Silver001 | 03-07-2010 05:05 PM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Hillary is waiting to bring in the UN treaty till afer the 2010 elections.............

.375 | 03-07-2010 11:06 PM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 2215289) Did you miss him with the first round? :tongue_ma:
Thanks SLV - that took me a second. lol errr that's not what I meant.

smullen | 03-08-2010 12:45 AM
Re: Collapse of AR Market by Josh Well, lost of Barrels, upper kits and such are still outta stock and back ordered...

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