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- - Pump shotguns, SA MBR's (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=297900)

hypervel | 09-04-2008 01:56 PM
Pump shotguns, SA MBR's I was looking at Highwayman's thread on his new Mossberg. It got me to wondering why-in all my 'net travels- "everybody" brags up their semi auto MBR as the only proper choice for (whatever), then they turn around and brag up pump shotties as the only proper choice for the same (whatever). WHAT GIVES? With the caveat that one does not go playing around with dram levels, it seems the semiauto shotty fed a balanced diet of buck should present a strong argument as being the premiere implement for (whatever). Who dares oppose me? Go on. Do it. But remember-we're talking actions, not caliber. Idontwannahearabout engaging zombies at 300 yards, OK? Now.....carry on with your bad selves.:tongue_ma::tongue_ma:

SilverCity | 09-04-2008 02:10 PM
Re: Pump shotguns, SA MBR's 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by hypervel (Post 1270491) I was looking at Highwayman's thread on his new Mossberg. It got me to wondering why-in all my 'net travels- "everybody" brags up their semi auto MBR as the only proper choice for (whatever), then they turn around and brag up pump shotties as the only proper choice for the same (whatever). WHAT GIVES? With the caveat that one does not go playing around with dram levels, it seems the semiauto shotty fed a balanced diet of buck should present a strong argument as being the premiere implement for (whatever). Who dares oppose me? Go on. Do it. But remember-we're talking actions, not caliber. Idontwannahearabout engaging zombies at 300 yards, OK? Now.....carry on with your bad selves.:tongue_ma::tongue_ma:
Out to 50-60 yards on night patrol (in my wooded backyard) or for running targets: A fast shooting Benelli M-2 Super 90! EDIT: Sorry this is the one I meant to post...

eat_beef | 09-04-2008 02:57 PM
Re: Pump shotguns, SA MBR's The answer is recoil. It's not hard to keep on target with even a 7.62MM rifle for MUCH quicker follow up shots. Also, rifles are normally used from a position (rather than offhand) for more accuracy, and this position doesn't need to be broken to cycle the action. With a 12ga, you're not going to be prone or sitting (at least not very often), so breaking position isn't a problem. The recoil of the shotgun itself pretty well breaks your standing offhand position. The slide can be racked during recoil, so basically you gain reliability, save money (a good 870 is 150 bucks, while the Bennelli is quite expensive, and most other auto shotguns are somewhat less than reliable) and lose nothing. Now an auto shotgun would be nice for one handed fire...:bear_w00t: That said, anyone saying anything is the ONLY solution to a problem is looking to be wrong.

hypervel | 09-04-2008 03:29 PM
Re: Pump shotguns, SA MBR's Sure, and a pump rifle is same-same. Like a Rem 760. Put it in 30-06....270, you get the picture. Have fun with recoil. You can rack the slide during recoil, though....you gain reliability.....and a 760 is cheaper than an M1A. Why isn't there a rush to the 760? IIRC you can get 10 rd mags for them..... I'm just pointing out how some folks don't think about their prejudices. Yet some will pontificate at the drop of a hat. ...and I'm looking for a good argument- not a fight, an argument. Why stand for a pump shotty, but not a pump rifle? Nevermind branding or calibers. Can't reasonably take the reliability gambit and not apply it to MBR's (which I presume to be for SHTF....)

SilverCity | 09-04-2008 03:43 PM
Re: Pump shotguns, SA MBR's Quote:
Originally Posted by hypervel (Post 1270688) Sure, and a pump rifle is same-same. Like a Rem 760. Put it in 30-06....270, you get the picture. Have fun with recoil. You can rack the slide during recoil, though....you gain reliability.....and a 760 is cheaper than an M1A. Why isn't there a rush to the 760? IIRC you can get 10 rd mags for them..... I'm just pointing out how some folks don't think about their prejudices. Yet some will pontificate at the drop of a hat. ...and I'm looking for a good argument- not a fight, an argument. Why stand for a pump shotty, but not a pump rifle? Nevermind branding or calibers. Can't reasonably take the reliability gambit and not apply it to MBR's (which I presume to be for SHTF....)
Manual pump does not necessarily equal reliability. Your example of a Remington 760, for instance...how long will it stay in the fight? For one or two mag changes maybe? Or several? Until the action gets dirty, overheats, the pump rails bind up? Or mags fail? The 760 was never designed to take battlefield abuse...and I doubt it would hold up for very long. Wouldn't get my vote. Besides, what military uses a pump MBR?

eat_beef | 09-04-2008 03:43 PM
Re: Pump shotguns, SA MBR's Did you catch the first half of my post? To operate the slide, you have to break position. You can't rack a slide from prone at all. You have to break position from anything else, except offhand. At shotgun distance it isn't a big deal, but at 100+ yards it is. Also, I'll put an M14, FAL, or AK up against a Remmy slide action for reliability any day. When I was a kid, a Rem 7400 in 270 was my favorite rifle in the world. But it's not 'mil spec' by any stretch of the imagination. Probably less reliable than an AR.

hypervel | 09-04-2008 04:13 PM
Re: Pump shotguns, SA MBR's :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

Fullpower | 09-04-2008 07:01 PM
Re: Pump shotguns, SA MBR's I predict this thread will degenerate into an AK versus AR argument by middle of the second page.

hypervel | 09-04-2008 07:27 PM
Re: Pump shotguns, SA MBR's You're probably right. In the mean time, I'll hope I'm the minority if TSHTF. 1+2=3 in my world. The 1+2=3.6's will all kill each other before I have to even wake up.

ruprick | 09-04-2008 08:55 PM
Re: Pump shotguns, SA MBR's Top battle weapons IMHO: Remington 870 pump .....express grade....the cheaper the better. M1 Garand - you just can't beat a 30.06 battle rifle....reliable as all get out....can carry a crap load of 8 round enbloc clips ready to go...best rifle ever created IMHO... 6 shot 4" bbl .357 revolver. Plain vanilla 1911 45ACP. Any 9mm hi-capacity semi-auto. Those are the basics.....all that said....there are a lot of great rifles....if they are built to military or near military grade construction..... A good old 30-30 lever action Winchester or Marlin would make a great TSHTF weapon. Don't know of too many pump rifles other than the Remingtons....

farscott | 09-05-2008 07:26 AM
Re: Pump shotguns, SA MBR's As far as the Remington 870 versus semi-auto shotgun discussion, my decision is based on going to quite a few classes and seeing what happens to the guns in question when they get used like they do in fights. I started with a Benelli M3 (the one that can be switched from auto to pump) in 1995, switched to the M1 in 1997, and switched to the 870 in 1998. Ten years of bliss. In the last decade, I also used the Ithaca M37. Great gun but parts can be hard to find. Wish the M37 had the parts available that the 870 does. Quite simply, the semi-auto shotgun, especially the Benelli recoil-operated gun, is just not reliable enough when things are not perfect. The Benelli is very, very sensitive to what the butt is placed against. If the hold is not right, and in the heat of the fight it may not, the Benelli can and does fail to cycle. If the shooter is backed up against the wall, the gun may not cycle. Seen it myself too many times. The Benelli is also very sensitive to adding lights or butt cuffs to the gun. This causes the gun to suddenly stop cycling loads it previously ran like a top. It also seems to be a bit temperature sensitive. In addition, the Benelli recoil sensation is not pleasant to me. Gas-operated guns, like the 1100 and 11-87, do not operate. I still remember the class where the temperature went from 50 in the morning to 80 in the afternoon, and the 11-87 cycled in the morning and not in the afternoon. That gun needed a cleaning and lube while my 870 was running strong. Not too mention all of the O-ring debacles, too much lube in the gun debacles, and this ammo is too light for that gun debacles. Saw the last one with the Benelli M1 as well. Had it happen to me. I do have one buddy who shoots an old 1100 that is absolutely solid. I have never seen it choke. His is the only one I have ever seen. Even he admits it is a fluke. Not too much experience with the new Mossbergs. Saw one at a class, and it did run. I tried it, and it did okay. He is supposed to be back with it at the next class, so better information then. So far, so good. My main concern with the Mossberg is durability. The 870 does not care what loads it runs as long as one stays away from junk Remington Gun Club loads. I once tied up an 870 so good with those that the gun was out of the fight for an hour. With known-good ammo, the 870 is reliable as long as the user is well trained. You can short-stroke an 870, creating a good jam, and without the Flexi-tab carrier, it is a PITA to clear. All of the 870s I have seen built in the last decade do have the Flexitab and that makes clearing the jam a snap. Just slam the butt of the gun on the ground while holding the forend. Poof, no more jam. Of course, you may crack a wood stock. (BTW, do not try this with a Benelli Nova. It is really a bad idea. Too bad, because I really like the Nova H20.) For this reason I prefer synthetic/polymer/plastic stocks on my 870s. I am partial to the stock Remington ships on the 870P or the Hogue stock. The other thing to remember with a pump is to run the pump. Cycle it hard, not easy, and cycle it after every shot. Recoil starts the process, so you might as well finish it. That avoids short-stroking the pump. Using a pump in this way also negates the speed advantage of the auto-loading gun. The pump wants to cycle itself so help it along. The 870 is also easy to load and top off on the run. A round can be dumped in the ejection port right into the chamber. The gun comes apart and goes together very easily. There are lots of accessories available for the 870, including different barrels, forends, stocks, safeties, etc. The 870 is the Ruger 10/22 of shotguns. You can also buy five of the things for less than one Benelli or two of them and lots of ammo for less than one Benelli. Used 870s are the best. No need to worry about magazine tube dimples or J-lock safeties. Avoid the latter as they can and will lock themselves on while using the gun. It happened to me. Old 870s are the best as long as you do not short-stroke them. They are hard to destroy. I especially like old Wingmasters with the 2-3/4" chambers (serial number does NOT end in "M") as they can be had for a song and have great build quality. My rule is I buy every 870 Wingmaster that I find for less than $200. I just make sure the ejector is in place as that is the one part that requires a trip to Ilion and that the magazine tube is not bent. I have barrels that range from 18 inches to 30 inches so I am covered. My trap gun is an old 870TB. I buy stock sets for less than $100, install a new magazine tube for $30, and I have a great gun for around $300. I sometimes sell a gun to a buddy that wants a proven shottie. That is my experience.

hypervel | 09-05-2008 11:15 AM
Re: Pump shotguns, SA MBR's My Rem 11-with patent dates of the late 1800's runs like hell. I'll bet the Saiga 12 isn't much of a problem child... The point of the thread is less about the nature of any given firearm than the nature of the plethora of experts who regularly seemingly contradict themselves-at least in little ways. I'm glad you like what you like, but it's outside the scope of this thread. See the bigger picture. The people who violate logic in one arena are just as likely to pull the same bull in other arenas. What else do these people self designate as areas of expertise? Gold? Investments? Medicine? A lot of people come to GIM looking for answers from other people who might be in a position to know more about a given thing than they are. Then you get the real winners who dispense the whole "do your own diligence" crap. Hey, if we all could truly do our own diligence, we'd likely all be in better life positions than we are now. The MBR/shotty thing is a bullshi* barometer, that's all. While I don't disagree (necessarily) with most of the responses, look at the volume written, consider the content, and reread the opening thread entry. Do you see what I'm getting at?

farscott | 09-05-2008 11:40 AM
Re: Pump shotguns, SA MBR's The problem is your starting point is invalid, or, at least, too simplistic. Stating an autoloading rifle is fine, so an autoloading shotgun should be fine is just not right. The fact is the ammo types and issues in a shotgun are different than in a rifle, and autoloading actions are varied in type (long recoil, short recoil, gas-operated, gas retarded, blowback, etc). A direct gas impingment M16 is a much different action than a long-recoil Remington 11. They function on different principles. In addition, shotgun ammo raises issues metallic cartridges do not. I have never had to scrub plastic residue from an M16, but I have to every week with an 870. Am I making sense?

hypervel | 09-05-2008 11:47 AM
Re: Pump shotguns, SA MBR's You guys are reinforcing my faith in humanity, here. NEXT!!

Highwayman | 09-05-2008 03:20 PM
Re: Pump shotguns, SA MBR's Quote:
Originally Posted by farscott (Post 1271865) Not too much experience with the new Mossbergs. Saw one at a class, and it did run. I tried it, and it did okay. He is supposed to be back with it at the next class, so better information then. So far, so good. My main concern with the Mossberg is durability. That is my experience.
From what I hear, the boys over in the sand box use the Mossy 930 autos (which is supposedly why they are hard to find), so surely they are up to par durability-wise.. ??

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