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TomD | 09-08-2008 10:22 AM
Obama on guns, a quote This is a direct quote from a camapign stop in Pennsylvania-- "'If you've got a gun in your house, I'm not taking it,' Obama said. But the Illinois senator could still see skeptics in the crowd, particularly on the faces of several men at the back of the room. So he tried again. 'Even if I want to take them away, I don't have the votes in Congress,' he said. 'This can't be the reason not to vote for me ...'" My, isn't that just comforting?

specsaregood | 09-08-2008 10:24 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1276958) My, isn't that just comforting?
If he really meant it he would have framed it as such: "I don't have the right to take your guns, that right is protected for YOU by then 2nd amendment". Since he said, "I don't have the votes in congress" it implies that he would if he could.

The Argent Dragon | 09-08-2008 10:27 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1276958) 'Even if I want to take them away,....
:thumpdown and the TRUTH comes out. :banghead:

TomD | 09-08-2008 10:36 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by specsaregood (Post 1276962) Since he said, "I don't have the votes in congress" it implies that he would if he could.
His record on the subject does quite a bit more than "imply", try "screams" instead.

The Argent Dragon | 09-08-2008 11:20 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote RESTATED for the record : McCain Opposes restrictions on assault weapons and ammunition types McCain opposes restrictions on so-called "assault rifles" and voted consistently against such bans. McCain opposes bans on the importation of certain types of ammunition magazines and has voted against such limitations. McCain believes that banning ammunition is just another way to undermine Second Amendment rights. He voted against an amendment that would have banned many of the most commonly used hunting cartridges on the spurious grounds that they were "armor-piercing."

Twisted Avatar | 09-08-2008 11:31 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote 1 Attachment(s) If he wants them.......all he had to do was ask.

Silverstone | 09-08-2008 11:36 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by specsaregood (Post 1276962) If he really meant it he would have framed it as such: "I don't have the right to take your guns, that right is protected for YOU by then 2nd amendment". Since he said, "I don't have the votes in congress" it implies that he would if he could.
There you go! Very good at reading between the lines, all attorneys talk this way when trying to soften something; you are right, he would if HE could, not, that he would uphold the 2nd amendment.

Silver Wolf | 09-08-2008 11:37 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Obama represents the South side of Chicago. There is no doubt he is anti-gun rights.

Big_Rob | 09-08-2008 11:41 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote http://www.gunbanobama.com/

Atahualpa | 09-08-2008 11:41 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote With McCain/Palin, we are going to need every assualt rifle we can get our hands if they think doing Gods Will is invading and killing more Muslims. We are fixing to hit a shit storm if this bunch in power now just changes faces and accelerates the war expansion plans...Lieberman, who McCain wanted as his VP and is his trusted adviser, wants to 'bomb bomb, bomb Iran', and probably Pakistan. Pure insanity and evil to boot.

The Argent Dragon | 09-08-2008 11:43 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1277120) With McCain/Palin, we are going to need every assualt rifle we can get our hands if they think doing Gods Will is invading and killing more Muslims. We are fixing to hit a shit storm if this bunch in power now just changes faces and accelerates the war expansion plans...Lieberman, who McCain wanted as his VP and is his trusted adviser, wants to 'bomb bomb, bomb Iran', and probably Pakistan. Pure insanity and evil to boot.
And we wouldn't need assault rifles to defend against a Police State Socialist - we need your guns scenario ??? I'm confused. :confused_ma: EDIT : Exhibit 'A' >> http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=298527

Atahualpa | 09-08-2008 11:48 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by The Argent Dragon (Post 1277127) And we wouldn't need assault rifles to defend against a Police State Socialist - we need your guns scenario ??? I'm confused. :confused_ma:
The world is going to turn on us like we are Nazi Germany. It is already happening...we have gone from the shining light of freedom to the world pariah. What follows will be the death of our service people and the destruction of our country. We've hit the skids.

Twisted Avatar | 09-08-2008 11:49 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Rob (Post 1277119) http://www.gunbanobama.com/
Bitter gun owner and I vote!! Hahah ...........Good one Rob. T

GreenSpirit | 09-08-2008 11:50 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Anybody who thinks their guns will protect them from a full-on police state is deluded. Their weaponry and defenses make yours look like pop-guns and a styrofoam castle.

Ebie | 09-08-2008 11:56 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Wolf (Post 1277105) Obama represents the South side of Chicago. There is no doubt he is anti-gun rights.
Do people on the South Side of Chicago not want to have guns? I wonder how many are armed? Be well.

Big_Rob | 09-08-2008 12:06 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenSpirit (Post 1277141) Anybody who thinks their guns will protect them from a full-on police state is deluded. Their weaponry and defenses make yours look like pop-guns and a styrofoam castle.
So we should just roll over like a puppy dog? I would rather die with my boots on than cowering in fear. Capitulation isn't in my vocabulary when it comes to living in a total police state.

graspAU | 09-08-2008 12:14 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote When did he make this statement? Is there a link to a source?

Atahualpa | 09-08-2008 12:15 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Rob (Post 1277168) So we should just roll over like a puppy dog? I would rather die with my boots on than cowering in fear. Capitulation isn't in my vocabulary when it comes to living in a total police state.
You are going to pray for a police state when 2 or 3 billion people with all worlds industrial capacity decide it is time to cut out down the world's bully and thief. It looks fairly secure that we will have a seamless transition from this administration to the next...shouldn't be more than a few superficial changes and then it is game on.

Twisted Avatar | 09-08-2008 12:21 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote +1 on Rob It dosnet make a diffrence what the state has........we have one thing they will forever be devoid of. HEART. They are a buch of sour saps that lack any type of backbone. They hide behind a wall of money drugs and henchmen. But that will one take you so far. If they should ever come for me they will be dealing with a man that knows HE HAS NOTHING LEFT TO LOOSE. History has shown.......... heaven help those who are on the other end of it. T

Atahualpa | 09-08-2008 12:24 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote I hope the military declares martial law and takes over the country. With the civilian leadership hell bent on making the United States the most hated nation in the world, to me, this is our only hope...and that chance is probably slim to none.

DrillAndFill | 09-08-2008 12:25 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1277194) It looks fairly secure that we will have a seamless transition from this administration to the next...shouldn't be more than a few superficial changes and then it is game on.
The only question is whether we get a gun-grabber who thinks government can solve too many things, or a GW Bush clone who'll keep us in Iraq for 100 years and whose VP lies like the rug.

Iptuous | 09-08-2008 12:28 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenSpirit (Post 1277141) Anybody who thinks their guns will protect them from a full-on police state is deluded. Their weaponry and defenses make yours look like pop-guns and a styrofoam castle.
You seem to be ignoring the lessons of 'assymetric warfare' that we have been/are being schooled on.

GreenSpirit | 09-08-2008 12:35 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Probably the best hope is found in loud agitation for civil liberties. Put sand in the machinery of the police state. Confront them often on human rights issues and publicly accuse them. Attack them on all quality of life issues and make them respond. Demand that the corporations' rights as Persons be revoked. Get the corporate fascist state on its heels long enough to knock it over and step on its throat. This is our only hope. Without corporate power the fascists fade away into paper-shufflers.

The Argent Dragon | 09-08-2008 01:47 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenSpirit (Post 1277141) Their weaponry and defenses make yours look like pop-guns.....
Really ? ........here's my POP GUN ! :bear_w00t: http://brpguns.com/images/mg42ss4.jpg.jpg

GreenSpirit | 09-08-2008 02:01 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by The Argent Dragon (Post 1277388) Really ? ........here's my POP GUN ! :bear_w00t: http://brpguns.com/images/mg42ss4.jpg.jpg
Wow that's a kick-ass gun. And if the year was 1919 it would probably help you a lot. I doubt you understand exactly what you face. :smokin:

TomD | 09-08-2008 02:07 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by scottp999 (Post 1277193) When did he make this statement? Is there a link to a source?
Yeah Scott, here it is from the Wall Street Journal, Washington Wire feature. Sept 5th in Duryea, Pa. http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/0...our-guns-away/

Buddha | 09-08-2008 02:17 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenSpirit (Post 1277419) Wow that's a kick-ass gun. And if the year was 1919 it would probably help you a lot. I doubt you understand exactly what you face. :smokin:
How are your armaments? I would rather have that at the head of a choke point when the militarized police storm the fort, then a pump shotty and some hand gun. Remember that thread about the swat team raiding the wrong house? The guy had a shotgun and hit 2 in the head and 1 in the neck I believe and they weren't even injured. There would be no team left is they ran in and came face to face with an mg42 Probably would not have even made it to the house. We can all only do what we can, and that includes preparing for the worst, and hoping for the best.

Awoke | 09-08-2008 02:21 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1277098) If he wants them.......all he had to do was ask http://goldismoney.info/forums/attac...1&d=1220887877.
HAHAHA! TA FTW again!! Best. pic. ever.

Big_Rob | 09-08-2008 02:40 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenSpirit (Post 1277419) Wow that's a kick-ass gun. And if the year was 1919 it would probably help you a lot. I doubt you understand exactly what you face. :smokin:
1919? Nope, thats a WW2 machine gun. And I doubt anyone wearing body armor would survive the 8mm Mauser round as they were real real real effective at penetrating. IIRC you can still get AP rounds for that weapon which would make for a nightmare for any entry team.

GreenSpirit | 09-08-2008 03:14 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Rob (Post 1277518) 1919? Nope, thats a WW2 machine gun. And I doubt anyone wearing body armor would survive the 8mm Mauser round as they were real real real effective at penetrating. IIRC you can still get AP rounds for that weapon which would make for a nightmare for any entry team.
I didn't say it was from 1919, I said a modern era gun would have been a big help in 1919. You perhaps misunderstood me; I may have been unclear. Guns will not save you; TPTB will always have better guns.

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Abouthadit | 09-08-2008 03:32 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by The Argent Dragon (Post 1277077) RESTATED for the record : McCain Opposes restrictions on assault weapons and ammunition types McCain opposes restrictions on so-called "assault rifles" and voted consistently against such bans. McCain opposes bans on the importation of certain types of ammunition magazines and has voted against such limitations. McCain believes that banning ammunition is just another way to undermine Second Amendment rights. He voted against an amendment that would have banned many of the most commonly used hunting cartridges on the spurious grounds that they were "armor-piercing."
McCain is a neocon RINO liar, but I repeat myself. GOA gives him poor marks. http://www.zimbio.com/Senator+John+M...+2nd+Amendment

The Argent Dragon | 09-08-2008 03:38 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Rob (Post 1277518) And I doubt anyone wearing body armor would survive the 8mm Mauser round as they were real real real effective at penetrating. IIRC you can still get AP rounds for that weapon which would make for a nightmare for any entry team.
Exactly. :wink: This is 8mm Mauser Original German SMK Armor Piercing Ammo. This ammo is the pre-war Armor Piercing that has the true milled heat treated tool steel core with a boattail on the back of the steel core. After the U.S. got involved in World war II the Germans quit making this type of armor piercing ammo due to the high cost and time it took to make the tool steel core with a boattail. http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/i...ixel_trans.gif http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/i...erman8mmAP.jpg

Atahualpa | 09-08-2008 03:38 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Good information...thanks abouthadit. [url]http://www.zimbio.com/Senator+John+Mccain+Of+Arizona/articles/73/GOA+McCain+Record+2nd+Amendment[/url GOA: McCain�s Record on the 2nd Amendment EmailWritten by nuke_gingrich on Jan-21-08 10:41pm From: nukegingrich.wordpress.com GOA Ratings For John McCain 2000 C� 2002 C� 2004 F� 2006 F� Democrats Say McCain Nearly Abandoned GOP America�s Foolish European Wannabes Refutation Of �A Day At The Beach� Charge Andy Card � I Have Seen McCain�s Anger McCain�s Character � A Disaster Waiting To Happen Sen. McCain: I Don�t Have A Temper John McCain: Liberal In Disguise Friendly Fire: McCain Has Some Explaining To Do John McCain: Liberal In Disguise McCain�s Constitution Softening The Skeptics McCain�s War On Political Speech Lobbying Reforms Unconstitutional McCain: Major League Hypocrite McCain�s Gun Control Ad GOA On John McCain�s Record Arizona Senator John McCain is running for President (again). He has been courting various conservative leaders in his quest to secure the Republican nomination. McCain wants voters to believe that he is a conservative� but his record would certainly suggest otherwise.Take, for instance, his record on gun rights and political speech affecting Second Amendment activists. Abysmal, wretched, and pathetic are words that come to mind. GunOwners of America

The Argent Dragon | 09-08-2008 03:40 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Let's be fair - also from GOA : Barack Obama's Gun-Related Votes The U.S. Senate Debated: Obama Voted: Supporting concealed carry for citizens10 Anti-gun Banning many common semi-automatic firearms11 Anti-gun Disallowing self-defense in towns where guns are banned12 Anti-gun Imposing one handgun a month restrictions13 Anti-gun Requiring lock up your safety trigger locks14 Anti-gun Protecting gun dealers from frivolous lawsuits15 Anti-gun Outlawing gun confiscations during a national emergency16 Pro-gun Squelching the free speech rights of gun owners17 Anti-gun Restricting the interstate sales of firearms18 Anti-gun Repealing the gun ban in Washington, DC19 Anti-gun http://gunowners.org/pres08/obama.htm :wink:

TomD | 09-08-2008 03:41 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenSpirit (Post 1277607) I didn't say it was from 1919, I said a modern era gun would have been a big help in 1919. You perhaps misunderstood me; I may have been unclear. Guns will not save you; TPTB will always have better guns.
I don't think anyone here proposes entering into a classic infantry confrontation with TPTB, but if that were the case you'd be right with your evaluation.

Buddha | 09-08-2008 03:43 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1277676) I don't think anyone here proposes entering into a classic infantry confrontation with TPTB, but if that were the case you'd be right with your evaluation.
I plan on charging their formations with mailed knights :confused_ma:

Atahualpa | 09-08-2008 03:47 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote How can someone with a F- rating from GOA be considered pro-gun? I didn't even know there was a such thing as F-, I thought failure was a low as it goes?

Twisted Avatar | 09-08-2008 03:58 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1277676) I don't think anyone here proposes entering into a classic infantry confrontation with TPTB, but if that were the case you'd be right with your evaluation.
Convetional warfare is stupid....... That is what they want to fight...... that "john wanye mentality "will get you obliterated. But small cells of 3 - 12 memebers with a nothing left to loose mindset can literaly crush a empire because they make the strenght of the enemy (it size ) it biggest liabilty. LEADERLESS RESISTANCE The concept of Leaderless Resistance was proposed by Col. Ulius Louis Amoss, who was the founder of International Service of Information Incorporated, located in Baltimore, Maryland. Col. Amoss died more than fifteen years ago, but during his life was a tireless opponent of communism, as well as a skilled Intelligence Officer. Col. Amoss first wrote of Leaderless Resistance on April 17, 1962. His theories of organization were primarily directed against the threat of eventual Communist take-over in the United States. The present writer, with the benefit of having lived many years beyond Col. Amoss, has taken his theories and expounded upon them. Col. Amoss feared the Communists. This author fears the federal government. Communism now represents a threat to no one in the United States, while federal tyranny represents a threat to everyone . The writer has joyfully lived long enough to see the dying breaths of communism, but may, unhappily, remain long enough to see the last grasps of freedom in America. In the hope that, somehow, America can still produce the brave sons and daughters necessary to fight off ever increasing persecution and oppression, this essay is offered. Frankly, it is too close to call at this point. Those who love liberty, and believe in freedom enough to fight for it are rare today, but within the bosom of every once great nation, there remains secreted, the pearls of former greatness. They are there. I have looked into their sparking eyes; sharing a brief moment in time with them as I passed through this life. Relished their friendship, endured their pain, and they mine. We are a band of brothers, native to the soil gaining strength one from another as we have rushed head long into a battle that all the weaker, timid men, say we can not win. Perhaps...but then again, perhaps we can. It's not over till the last freedom fighter is buried or imprisoned, or the same happens to those who would destroy their freedom. Barring any cataclysmic events, the struggle will yet go on for years. The passage of time will make it clear to even the more slow among us that the government is the foremost threat to the life, and liberty of the folk. The government will no doubt make today's oppressiveness look like grade school work compared to what they have planned in the future. Meanwhile, there are those of us who continue to hope that somehow the few can do what the many have not. We are cognizant that before things get better they will certainly get worse as government shows a willingness to use ever more severe police state measures against dissidents. This changing situation makes it clear that those who oppose state repression must be prepared to alter, adapt, and modify their behavior, strategy, and tactics as circumstances warrant. Failure to consider new methods and implement them as necessary will make the government's efforts at suppression uncomplicated. It is the duty of every patriot to make the tyrant's life miserable. When one fails to do so he not only fails himself, but his people. With this in mind, current methods of resistance to tyranny employed by those who love our race, culture, and heritage must pass a litmus test of soundness. Methods must be objectively measured as to their effectiveness, as well as to whether they make the government's intention of repression more possible or more difficult. Those not working to aid our objectives must be discarded or the government benefits from our failure to do so. As honest men who have banded together into groups or associations of a political or religious nature are falsely labeled "domestic terrorists" or "cultists" and suppressed, it will become necessary to consider other methods of organization--or as the case may very well call for: non-organization. One should keep in mind that it is not in the government's interest to eliminate all groups. Some few must remain in order to perpetuate the smoke and mirrors vision for the masses that America is a "free democratic country" where dissent is allowed. Most organizations, however, that possess the potential for effective resistance will not be allowed to continue. Anyone who is so naive as to believe the most powerful government on earth will not crush any who pose a real threat to that power, should not be active, but rather, at home studying political history. The question as to who is to be left alone and who is not, will be answered by how groups and individuals deal with several factors such as: avoidance of conspiracy plots, rejection of feeble minded malcontents, insistence upon quality of the participants, avoidance of all contact with the front men for the federals--the news media--and, finally, camouflage (which can be defined as the ability to blend in the public's eye the more committed groups of resistance with mainstream "kosher" associations that are generally seen as harmless.) Primarily though, whether any organization is allowed to continue in the future will be a matter of how big a threat a group represents. Not a threat in terms of armed might or political ability, for there is none of either for the present, but rather, threat in terms of potentiality. It is potential the federals fear most. Whether that potential exists in an individual or group is incidental. The federals measure potential threat in terms of what might happen given a situation conducive to action on the part of a restive organization or individual. Accurate intelligence gathering allows them to assess the potential. Showing one's hand before the bets are made, is a sure way to loose. The movement for freedom is rapidly approaching the point where for many people, the option of belonging to a group will be nonexistent. For others, group membership will be a viable option for only the immediate future. Eventually, and perhaps much sooner than most believe possible, the price paid for membership will exceed any perceived benefit. But for now, some of the groups that do exist often serve a useful purpose either for the newcomer who can be indoctrinated into the ideology of the struggle, or for generating positive propaganda to reach potential freedom fighters. It is sure that, for the most part, this struggle is rapidly becoming a matter of individual action, each of its participants making a private decision in the quietness of his heart to resist: to resist by any means necessary. It is hard to know what others will do, for no man truly knows another man's heart. It is enough to know what one himself will do. A great teacher once said "know thyself." Few men really do, but let each of us, promise ourselves, not to go quietly to the fate our would-be masters have planned. The concept of Leaderless Resistance is nothing less than a fundamental departure in theories of organization. The orthodox scheme of organization is diagrammatically represented by the pyramid, with the mass at the bottom and the leader at the top. This fundamental of organization is to be seen not only in armies, which are of course, the best illustration of the pyramid structure, with the mass of soldiery, the privates, at the bottom responsible to corporals who are in turn responsible to sergeants, and so on up the entire chain of command to the generals at the top. But the same structure is seen in corporations, ladies' garden clubs and in our political system itself. This orthodox "pyramid" scheme of organization is to be seen basically in all existing political, social and religious structures in the world today from the Federal government to the Roman Catholic Church. The Constitution of the United States, in the wisdom of the Founders, tried to sublimate the essential dictatorial nature of pyramidal organization by dividing authority into three: executive, legislative and judicial. But the pyramid remains essentially untouched. This scheme of organization, the pyramid, is however, not only useless, but extremely dangerous for the participants when it is utilized in a resistance movement against state tyranny. Especially is this so in technologically advanced societies where electronic surveillance can often penetrate the structure revealing its chain of command. Experience has revealed over and over again that anti-state, political organizations utilizing this method of command and control are easy prey for government infiltration, entrapment, and destruction of the personnel involved. This has been seen repeatedly in the United States where pro-government infiltrators or agent provocateurs weasel their way into patriotic groups and destroy them from within. In the pyramid type of organization, an infiltrator can destroy anything which is beneath his level of infiltration and often those above him as well. If the traitor has infiltrated at the top, then the entire organization from the top down is compromised and may be traduced at will. An alternative to the pyramid type of organization is the cell system. In the past, many political groups (both right and left) have used the cell system to further their objectives. Two examples will suffice. During the American Revolution "committees of correspondence" were formed throughout the Thirteen colonies. Their purpose was to subvert the government and thereby aid the cause of independence. The "Sons of Liberty", who made a name for themselves dumping government taxed tea into the harbor at Boston, were the action arm of the committees of correspondence. Each committee was a secret cell that operated totally independently of the other cells. Information on the government was passed from committee to committee, from colony to colony, and then acted upon on a local basis. Yet even in these bygone days of poor communication, of weeks to months for a letter to be delivered, the committees without any central direction whatsoever, were remarkable similar in tactics employed to resist government tyranny. It was, as the first American patriots knew, totally unnecessary for anyone to give an order for anything. Information was made available to each committee, and each committee acted as it saw fit. A recent example of the cell system taken from the left wing of politics are the Communists. The Communist, in order to get around the obvious problems involved in pyramidal organization, developed to an art the cell system. They had numerous independent cells which operated completely isolated from one another and particularly with no knowledge of each other, but were orchestrated together by a central headquarters. For instance, during World War II, in Washington, it is known that there were at least six secret Communist cells operating at high levels in the United States government (plus all the open Communists who were protected and promoted by President Roosevelt), however, only one of the cells was rooted out and destroyed. How many more actually were operating no one can say for sure. The Communist cells which operated in the U.S until late 1991 under Soviet control could have at their command a leader, who held a social position which appeared to be very lowly. He could be, for example, a busboy in a restaurant, but in reality a colonel or a general in the Soviet Secret Service, the KGB. Under him could be a number of cells and a person active in one cell would almost never have knowledge of individuals who are active in another cell. The value of this is that while any one cell can be infiltrated, exposed or destroyed, such action will have no effect on the other cells; in fact, the members of the other cells will be supporting that cell which is under attack and ordinarily would lend very strong support to it in many ways. This is at least part of the reason, no doubt, that whenever in the past Communists were attacked in this country, support for them sprang up in many unexpected places. The efficient and effective operation of a cell system after the Communist model, is of course, dependent upon central direction, which means impressive organization, funding from the top, and outside support, all of which the Communists had. Obviously, American patriots have none of these things at the top or anywhere else, and so an effective cell organization based upon the Soviet system of operation is impossible. Two things become clear from the above discussion. First, that the pyramid type of organization can be penetrated quite easily and it thus is not a sound method of organization in situations where the government has the resources and desire to penetrate the structure; which is the situation in this country. Secondly, that the normal qualifications for the cell structure based upon the Red model does not exist in the U.S. for patriots. This understood, the question arises "What method is left for those resisting state tyranny?" The answer comes from Col. Amoss who proposed the "Phantom Cell" mode of organization. Which he described as Leaderless Resistance. A system of organization that is based upon the cell organization, but does not have any central control or direction, that is in fact almost identical to the methods used by the Committees of Correspondence during the American Revolution. Utilizing the Leaderless Resistance concept, all individuals and groups operate independently of each other, and never report to a central headquarters or single leader for direction or instruction, as would those who belong to a typical pyramid organization. At first glance, such a type of organization seems unrealistic, primarily because there appears to be no organization. The natural question thus arises as to how are the "Phantom cells" and individuals to cooperate with each other when there is no intercommunication or central direction? The answer to this question is that participants in a program of Leaderless Resistance through phantom cell or individual action must know exactly what they are doing, and how to do it. It becomes the responsibility of the individual to acquire the necessary skills and information as to what is to be done. This is by no means as impractical as it appears, because it is certainly true that in any movement, all persons involved have the same general outlook, are acquainted with the same philosophy, and generally react to given situations in similar ways. The pervious history of the committees of correspondence during the American Revolution show this to be true. Since the entire purpose of Leaderless Resistance is to defeat state tyranny (at least insofar as this essay is concerned), all members of phantom cells or individuals will tend to react to objective events in the same way through usual tactics of resistance. Organs of information distribution such as newspapers, leaflets, computers, etc., which are widely available to all, keep each person informed of events, allowing for a planned response that will take many variations. No one need issue an order to anyone. Those idealist truly committed to the cause of freedom will act when they feel the time is ripe, or will take their cue from others who precede them. While it is true that much could be said against this type of structure as a method of resistance, it must be kept in mind that Leaderless Resistance is a child of necessity. The alternatives to it have been show to be unworkable or impractical. Leaderless Resistance has worked before in the American Revolution, and if the truly committed put it to use for themselves, it will work now. It goes almost without saying that Leaderless Resistance leads to very small or even one man cells of resistance. Those who join organizations to play "let's pretend" or who are "groupies" will quickly be weeded out. While for those who are serious about their opposition to federal despotism, this is exactly what is desired. From the point of view of tyrants and would be potentates in the federal bureaucracy and police agencies, nothing is more desirable than that those who oppose them be UNIFIED in their command structure, and that every person who opposes them belong to a pyramid type group. Such groups and organizations are an easy kill. Especially in light of the fact that the Justice (sic) Department promised in 1987 that there would never be another group that opposed them that they did not have at least one informer in. These federal "friends of government" are intelligence agents. They gather information that can be used at the whim of a federal D.A. to prosecute. The line of battle has been drawn. Patriots are required therefore, to make a conscious decision to either aid the government in its illegal spying, by continuing with old methods of organization and resistance, or to make the enemie's job more difficult by implementing effective countermeasures. Now there will, no doubt, be mentally handicapped people out there who, while standing at a podium with an American flag draped in the background, and a lone eagle soaring in the sky above, will state emphatically in their best sounding red, white, and blue voice, "So what if the government is spying? We are not violating any laws." Such crippled thinking by any serious person is the best example that there is a need for special education classes. The person making such a statement is totally out of contact with political reality in this country, and unfit for leadership of any thing more than a dog sleigh in the Alaskan wilderness. The old "Born on the fourth of July" mentality that has influenced so much of the American patriot's thinking in the past will not save him from the government in the future. "Reeducation" for non-thinkers of this type will take place in the federal prison system where there are no flags or eagles, but abundance of men who were "not violating any law." Most groups who "unify" their disparate associates into a single structure have short political lives. Therefore, those movement leaders constantly calling for unity of organization rather than the desirable unity of purpose, usually fall into one of three categories. They may not be sound political tacticians, but rather, just committed men who feel unity would help their cause, while not realizing that the government would greatly benefit from such efforts. The Federal objective, to imprison or destroy all who oppose them, is made easier in pyramid organizations. Or perhaps, they do not fully understand the struggle they are involved in and that the government they oppose has declared a state of war against those fighting for faith, folk, freedom and constitutional liberty. Those in power will use any means to rid themselves of opposition. The third class calling for unity and let us hope this is the minority of the three, are men more desirous of the supposed power that a large organization would bestow, than of actually achieving their stated purpose. Conversely, the last thing Federal snoops would have, if they had any choice in the matter, is a thousand different small phantom cells opposing them. It is easy to see why. Such a situation is an intelligence nightmare for a government intent upon knowing everything they possibly can about those who oppose them. The Federals, able to amass overwhelming strength of numbers, manpower, resources, intelligence gathering, and capability at any given time, need only a focal point to direct their anger. A single penetration of a pyramid type of organization can lead to the destruction of the whole. Whereas, Leaderless Resistance presents no single opportunity for the Federals to destroy a significant portion of the Resistance. With the announcement by the Department of Justice (sic) that 300 FBI agents formerly assigned to watching Soviet spies in the US (domestic counter intelligence) are now to be used to "combat crime", the federal government is preparing the way for a major assault upon those persons opposed to their policies. Many anti-government groups dedicated to the preservation of the America of our forefathers can expect shortly to feel the brunt of a new federal assault upon liberty. It is clear, therefore, that it is time to rethink traditional strategy and tactics when it comes to opposing a modern police state. America is quickly moving into a long dark night of police state tyranny, where the rights now accepted by most as being inalienable will disappear. Let the coming night be filled with a thousand points of resistance. Like the fog which forms when conditions are right and disappears when they are not, so must the resistance to tyranny be.

GreenSpirit | 09-08-2008 04:08 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote I can see where the leaderless aspect would be easy.

Atahualpa | 09-08-2008 04:15 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Talk about wear and tear on the eyes...try a brighter color next time.:wink:

Twisted Avatar | 09-08-2008 04:17 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenSpirit (Post 1277735) I can see where the leaderless aspect would be easy.
It is the ONLY option that will be available.......anything else can be infiltrated and comnpromised. T

Atahualpa | 09-08-2008 04:20 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1277757) It is the ONLY option that will be available.......anything else can be infiltrated and comnpromised. T
3 people can keep a secret, when 2 of them are dead.

stranger | 09-08-2008 04:27 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote There are a few folk with a good general working knowledge of chemistry and chemical reactions, as well as the application of such in a hypothetical scenario as is proposed here. It is likely that one of those people, were such an event as proposed come to pass, would make it a point to make his or her last post on this forum, and quite a few other places on the net, a fairly large printable file chock full of simple to follow scientific and technical instructions regarding the potential of commonly found chemicals and their various uses. For entertainment puposes only, of course...anything else would be terrorism.

The Argent Dragon | 09-08-2008 04:57 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Is it just me or is the Level of Proposed Violence escalating on this Obama thread ?!? :confused_ma: Perhaps his name alone instigates something sinister ?

Twisted Avatar | 09-08-2008 05:00 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote 3 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1277765) 3 people can keep a secret, when 2 of them are dead.
EVEN BETTER. Of all the people that I adrmire the one that is head and shoulders ABOVE ALL is the Sniper. One bullet can change history. Despatch 100 snipers to the seven continents and TPTB can eliminated in ONE WEEK.

azxcvbnm321 | 09-08-2008 06:12 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote You forget the advantage of numbers. Police and government will be vastly outnumbered, and already are, by gun-owning citizens. The biggest advantage of police is organization and coordination. If a bunch of gun-owners could coordinate, then the government would be in big trouble. A small group that is entrenched in fortified positions can hold off a much larger group for a long time. Time enough for a counter-attack from other gun-owners if they could somehow coordinate. Is there anything that can get through radio jammers? Otherwise gun-owners would have to group together in areas of control like Sadr City in Iraq. Only the use of heavy armor and airstrikes can neutralize the numerical superiority and asymmetric warfare of citizen groups. In reality though, the police and military cannot operate without citizen support. The economy powers the military, it provides the money necessary to operate and build the expensive superweapons we have like the F-22 and Abrams Tank. Without the cooperation of citizens, the economy would collapse and the government could only live off of seized money for a short amount of time. The gas milage on the Abrams Tank is very poor, where would the money to buy foreign fuel come from? Jet fuel is even more expensive and fighter/bombers weren't built with fuel efficiency in mind. Oil production has to be done by citizens, there has to be a large amount of citizen support for any type of government takeover or else it can't happen.

wallew | 09-08-2008 07:18 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenSpirit (Post 1277141) Anybody who thinks their guns will protect them from a full-on police state is deluded. Their weaponry and defenses make yours look like pop-guns and a styrofoam castle.
GS, Apparently you don't study your history. Viet Nam Live and Learn nuff said

wallew | 09-08-2008 07:44 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote GS, Aside from not knowing any thing military, you don't know tactics. It WOULD be suicide to attack a Commanche Helicopter while it's fully armed in the air. Shivving the pilot and gunner at the local pub by getting into a fight with them over a girl while the small town watched? Way easier. Besides, you are 'assuming' that AMERICAN troops would be involved. Not on our soil. Maybe Canadians. But more than likely Mexican or Chinese. We've had a contract with the Hong Kong Police SWAT units to 'assist' the US law enforcement units in case of emergency. That contract was signed by President JF Kennedy. That used to be the Brits. These days, that Chinese Special Forces Brigades.

The Argent Dragon | 09-08-2008 08:21 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote With what WALLEW said, I must add to "arm yourself to the teeth" and pray to God (of your choice) you'll never need it. Emergency preps is a good idea no matter what. :smokin: As for Mr. "O" ~ I'm not gonna help him when the S breaks loose.

Awoke | 09-08-2008 11:15 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1278096) GS, Besides, you are 'assuming' that AMERICAN troops would be involved. Not on our soil. Maybe Canadians. But more than likely Mexican or Chinese. We've had a contract with the Hong Kong Police SWAT units to 'assist' the US law enforcement units in case of emergency. That contract was signed by President JF Kennedy.
Canada for sure. They signed the agreement on valentines day of this year. I didn't know about the agreement with China, but I could see China just saying "No thanks, we don't want to help".

DC7 | 09-09-2008 12:07 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Do people on the South Side of Chicago not want to have guns? I wonder how many are armed?
Never been to Chicago, but word is on the South Side a guy named Leroy carried a .32 gun in his pocket for fun, and a razor in his shoe. I think he got killed though. Quote:
Barack Obama on Gun Control http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Bara...un_Control.htm John McCain on Gun Control http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/John...un_Control.htm
I don't trust Ontheissues.Org. I researched a few things they claimed about Ron Paul, looking up the actual votes and texts of the proposals, and ontheissues had it wrong. I wrote them a couple of polite and factual emails so they could correct the info. Never got any response either time, and the incorrect info was never corrected...... I don't trust anything they say.

mtnman | 09-09-2008 09:14 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by stranger (Post 1277778) There are a few folk with a good general working knowledge of chemistry and chemical reactions, as well as the application of such in a hypothetical scenario as is proposed here. It is likely that one of those people, were such an event as proposed come to pass, would make it a point to make his or her last post on this forum, and quite a few other places on the net, a fairly large printable file chock full of simple to follow scientific and technical instructions regarding the potential of commonly found chemicals and their various uses. For entertainment puposes only, of course...anything else would be terrorism.
That kind of info is all over the net. And for the print version go and buy the "Anarchist Cookbook". http://anarchistcookbook.com/

stranger | 09-09-2008 10:32 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote True enough mtnman. Though a lot of the info you find is wrong or incomplete, and a typical layman won't be knowledgeable enough to glean the wheat form the chaff. And the Anarchist Cookbook has some info that is wrong enough to get you hurt or killed, is less effective than it says, or that simply doesn't work at all. A better printed source of info would be Timothy Tobiason's "Scientific Principles of Improvised Warfare and Home Defense" series. If you can find it anymore. 4 or 5 volumes beginning with training and going through explosive, incendiary, chemical and biological weapons. Even then, some of the methods and materials might be hard to obtain or reproduce with limited resources. What I was referring to was a single printable file with easy to follow, easy to understand instructions and practical applications using easy to obtain materials. Again, strictly for educational and entertainment purposes only.

Big_Rob | 09-09-2008 10:49 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Heres another good read. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Poo...27s_James_Bond Of course, here is a distributor of said fine reading material http://www.loompanics.com/

Lackluster | 09-09-2008 10:54 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote I've always found the history of the New Jersey militia in the winter of 1776-1777 pretty interesting. They sure kept the British and the Hessians on their toes.

negative1 | 09-09-2008 11:41 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by The Argent Dragon (Post 1277388) Really ? ........here's my POP GUN ! :bear_w00t: http://brpguns.com/images/mg42ss4.jpg.jpg
AD, You have got to stop posting pics of that thing! I'm going to end up getting one. I have enough mouths to feed as it is! You make the .50 BMG jump yet? Get one or more before bama comes in and tries to take them. :D

Awoke | 09-09-2008 11:50 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by stranger (Post 1279085) True enough mtnman. Though a lot of the info you find is wrong or incomplete, and a typical layman won't be knowledgeable enough to glean the wheat form the chaff. And the Anarchist Cookbook has some info that is wrong enough to get you hurt or killed, is less effective than it says, or that simply doesn't work at all. A better printed source of info would be Timothy Tobiason's "Scientific Principles of Improvised Warfare and Home Defense" series. If you can find it anymore. 4 or 5 volumes beginning with training and going through explosive, incendiary, chemical and biological weapons. Even then, some of the methods and materials might be hard to obtain or reproduce with limited resources. What I was referring to was a single printable file with easy to follow, easy to understand instructions and practical applications using easy to obtain materials. Again, strictly for educational and entertainment purposes only.
If you are sceptical of the anarchist cookbook for educational and entertainment purposes only, you can alway buy government issued manuals that teach everything from Boobytraps & Incindiaries to Guerilla warfare tactics as taught by the US Army. I remember seeing the books available for educational and entertainment purposes only, online at an Army Surplus store called www.armyissue.com If I remember correctly, they were dated (1960's or so) but chalk-full of entertaining and educational material.

The Argent Dragon | 09-09-2008 12:22 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by negative1 (Post 1279272) You make the .50 BMG jump yet? Get one or more before bama comes in and tries to take them. :D
Not yet, still trying to pay-off my MG first.......(have a 2nd job though). You (or anyone here) can order the MG42 at J&GSales >> http://www.jgsales.com/product_info....oducts_id/1712 :D

stranger | 09-09-2008 12:24 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by Awoke (Post 1279293) If you are sceptical of the anarchist cookbook for educational and entertainment purposes only, you can alway buy government issued manuals that teach everything from Boobytraps & Incindiaries to Guerilla warfare tactics as taught by the US Army. I remember seeing the books available for educational and entertainment purposes only, online at an Army Surplus store called www.armyissue.com If I remember correctly, they were dated (1960's or so) but chalk-full of entertaining and educational material.
I know for a fact that the A-C gives an inaccurate formula for Fulminated Mercury, one that's likely to blow up in your hands, and makes no mention of the poisonous fumes given off by fulmination. The homemade TNT recipe yeilds an extermely unstable product, and the recipe for homemade napalm (cacodyal) burns spontaneously when exposed to air. I wouldn't trust much of what is in there.

TomD | 09-09-2008 12:51 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by stranger (Post 1279387) I know for a fact that the A-C gives an inaccurate formula for Fulminated Mercury, one that's likely to blow up in your hands, and makes no mention of the poisonous fumes given off by fulmination. The homemade TNT recipe yeilds an extermely unstable product, and the recipe for homemade napalm (cacodyal) burns spontaneously when exposed to air. I wouldn't trust much of what is in there.
Other than the fact that you will die unpleasantly following the recipes, just what is you problem with the book? :goodnight

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stranger | 09-09-2008 01:26 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1279447) Other than the fact that you will die unpleasantly following the recipes, just what is you problem with the book? :goodnight
Hehehe... Though I doubt it, I've heard some tin-foil hat rumors that the book was a CIA/FBI/ATF plant with intentionally bad info. No real problem with the book either way. A little thinning is good for the overall health of the herd...:D:D:D

FireMattMillen | 09-09-2008 08:54 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1277684) How can someone with a F- rating from GOA be considered pro-gun? I didn't even know there was a such thing as F-, I thought failure was a low as it goes?
Compare the records for McCain and Obama, and decide for yourself. I would define both as anti-gun, but to his credit McCain voted against the AWB and supported the Heller decision....and he never claimed "ban all handguns," as Obama did in 1996.

StackerKen | 09-09-2008 09:50 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote I hate to say it, Cause a lot of you don't want to hear it. But all our guns aren't gonna do much good if we get Nuked by Iran or Russia

ProblemSolver | 09-10-2008 10:21 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote One thing we need to think about here is that neither candidate will please everybody, and that either candidate has some strengths and weaknesses. HOWEVER, we do have a choice...VOTE FOR NEITHER! There are "third party" candidates on the ballet in almost every state. Bob Barr is running on the Libertarian ticket; Ralph Nader is running (whether Green Party ticket or not); write in Ron Paul. VOTE FOR SOMEBODY BESIDES ONE OF THE MAJOR PARTIES. As long as we keep voting for the lesser of evils, evil wins. This country has been locked in a stranglehold between the two major parties for long enough. We are divided by R's and D's, by red and blue. We need to show these people that WE'VE HAD ENOUGH. It's our government, let's have a strong showing of non-traditional votes. Somebody will get the message. It might take decades, but it all starts here.

TheNocturnalEgyptian | 09-17-2008 11:02 PM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Thank you sir. Tagged

goldgun | 09-18-2008 11:42 AM
Re: Obama on guns, a quote Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenSpirit (Post 1277141) Anybody who thinks their guns will protect them from a full-on police state is deluded. Their weaponry and defenses make yours look like pop-guns and a styrofoam castle.
Well the people in Iraq did a pretty good job until they decided Al Qaeda was not in their best interest.

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