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CyberGold | 08-05-2009 10:32 PM
Which semi-auto shotgun ? I have several pumps- Rem 870, Win 12/1300 Moss 500/590 and Savage 67D so I am covered in that department. BUT I have recetly been thinking - why pump when modern pistols and rifles are semi - why not a shotty too? Why do most people pick a pump shotgun over a semi? is it old time reliability stories? why not a semi today? So.... foir a tacticool/home security shotgun , what are the reliable options.?First thing that came to mind was a Benelli or Beretta - what else and why?

Ares | 08-05-2009 10:40 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? I went with a Saiga 12, and have been happy with it. As reliable as the AK-47 (based on the same design) but shoots any 12 gauge round you can feed it up to 3 inches.

Iptuous | 08-05-2009 10:43 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Saiga-12, FTW! http://goldismoney.info/forums/pictu...=2&pictureid=2 my turkey/clays slayer, Berreta Extrema2: http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x...1/DSC_1724.jpg

Ares | 08-05-2009 10:44 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Iptuous- Where'd you get that pistol grip? I'm looking for one. :biggrin:

EE_ | 08-05-2009 10:54 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? I only recommend pump to new buyers. They're cheap and effective. Been there done that, 30 some years ago. I love my old HK Benelli M1 Super 90...wouldn't be caught dead without it! Fast, light and 8 shots http://www.vaapensport.com/m1sandp.jpg

morganchaser | 08-05-2009 11:29 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Another vote for the Saiga 12. Izhmash has released a magwell for the gun, the LRBHO issue is almost resolved(it is resolved in the VEPR 12 and Saiga 12 SWAT) Further: the price is hard to argue with, the community is the largest, it is cleaning up in 3 gun competitions. Magazine prices are falling. Percieved recoil is ZERO. Once drop in bullpup kits start to resemble functional: the gun is going to be BADASS. Did I mention that it's just begging to be done up like an MG47?

TUMS | 08-05-2009 11:33 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? I've got a Benelli M4 with collapsible stock. Same gun our troops use overseas. LAPD use it also. I have several other Benelli field guns, mostly 20 gauge. Benelli is the way to go for semi auto. Pumps are good too, it all depends on what you like. I'm drooling over a Ithaca M37 featherlight 28ga pump.

Twisted Avatar | 08-05-2009 11:40 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Great Gun for the money and nobody else can hold more shells You Tube
You Tube

mick silver | 08-05-2009 11:52 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? http://www.centerfiresystems.com/SAI-12.aspx .. the best price i have seen in some time an some good ammo deals also

I am me, I am free | 08-05-2009 11:59 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? The Saiga 12 is a fine gun in many respects and a great value, but does not lend itself to serious tactical/social work most people are likely to encounter because the magazine cannot be topped off on the fly. This is a huge consideration those who've never been in a situation where taking the time for a mag change in CQB could likely get you killed often fail to take into account. The armchair warriors love the Saiga 12 because they generally don't know any better. IMO, anyone looking for a serious semi-auto willing to forgo the 'coolness' factor of the Saiga 12 the best practical choices are the Benellis M1, M2, M3, or M4 (I have a M4 aka 'the money pit' lol), the FN SLP, the Mossy 930, and the Remington 1100. The Saiga 12 is best suited to ambush scenarios utilizing the 20 round MD drum, and under those circumstances only the USAS (no longer made) with a drum (which was determined to be a DD by the BATF) comes close. That huge magazine hanging off it makes for a very poor truck/car gun. Edited to add: I would've suggest finding a Benelli 121 M1, but some replacement parts are non-existent at this point. I've had a 121 M1 for over 25 years and it's my favorite shotgun, fast handling, and just plain fast, when nano-seconds count.

morganchaser | 08-06-2009 12:02 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1854362) Great Gun for the money and nobody else can hold more shells http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwIITTwh1DY
Lol: I love the full body condom at 6:11. WTF? Be warned: the american import version is lacking most of the features in that video, even though it's the same core weapon. Most except LRBHO are currently available retrofits, but it's not easy or cheap to get one up and running.

mightymanx | 08-06-2009 12:17 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Saiga 12 you will be happy, if you value all the joyfull clunkyness and built like a tank no frills Russian approach to weapons design. If you need refined weapons you might not be happy.

gangsta99 | 08-06-2009 12:26 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? The Saiga 12 is an amazing firearm. Like I am me said though it is more of an ambush shotgun. If you are in a position that you are defending from a shitload of zombies or other hostiles it will be sweetest shotgun possible. Otherwise if you take it out and about anything past the factory 5 round mags seem to be just too damn long hanging out the shotgun. You can cut down some of the US made mags to 8 rounds then it isn't too bad, but most people don't want to do this. If you plan to convert your bastardized Saiga 12 (thanks to US import laws) back into what it was designed to be plan to spend an extra $400 easily to do this. It is worth it though if you are alright with spending around a grand to do this. You will get more looks of amazement at the gun range while firing a Saiga 12 than you will with any other gun.

I am me, I am free | 08-06-2009 12:29 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymanx (Post 1854409) Saiga 12 you will be happy, if you value all the joyfull clunkyness and built like a tank no frills Russian approach to weapons design. If you need refined weapons you might not be happy.
Reliability is a major consideration, and there the Saiga shines. But in a storm speed rules, and there are other semi-autos which are far faster handling than the Saiga 12 with respect to both maneuvering and reloading. Refinement has its place, and is actually quite practical. http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2404/...83ab0846_o.jpg http://www.fnhusa.com/support/images.../FNM0130mb.png Oh, and FWIW, the capacity of a M4 equipped with a full length mag tube loaded with 2.75" rounds is 7+1+1 (ghost loaded on the elevator) for a total of nine rounds, and the capacity of the 22" barrel FN SLP is 8+1. And you don't have that longass magazine hanging off the bottom of either. If you find yourself having an immediate need of more than nine rounds then you're in some serious deep shit. lol IMO, the only mag to use with the Saiga is the 20 round MD drum, anything else is lame, as in not going for full utilization.

illuminate10 | 08-06-2009 12:46 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
Originally Posted by EE_ (Post 1854279) I only recommend pump to new buyers. They're cheap and effective. Been there done that, 30 some years ago. I love my old HK Benelli M1 Super 90...wouldn't be caught dead without it! Fast, light and 8 shots http://www.vaapensport.com/m1sandp.jpg
Now I really no what desire is......:36_3_12:

I am me, I am free | 08-06-2009 12:56 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Let's talk tactical shotgun reloading. lol Which are you more likely to get a handle on in a hurry? Five of these? (how?) http://www.saiga12.com/prodimages/AGP-S12-MAG.gif Or one of these quickly slung over your shoulder? http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/c...1?$main-Small$

I am me, I am free | 08-06-2009 01:00 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? And FWIW, the advantage of a shotgun with a tube magazine is that you can select types of rounds on the fly also, where on the other hand you're stuck with what's in your pre-loaded detachable box magazine. So if you've loaded your box mag with nothing but buckshot and have an immediate need for a slug, then you're SOL. The Saiga is just not as versatile as some would like to believe.

Rebel Yarr | 08-06-2009 01:14 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? 3 Attachment(s) Saiga 12 - but be ready to do a lot of fine tuning to it. As said above - to really make it what it was intended to be....be ready to spend a minimum of $300 - 500 in addition to the $550ish gun purchase...if you go all the way you are looking at $1,500 + There is no other tactical shotgun that compares - as far as readily available custom parts....configurations... I have 2 of these now....I have one with a stock setup and one without...this thing is no problem to shoot with 3" magnum slug loads from the hip. 2 3/4 regular slugs and 00 buck are fine and easy to rapid fire. Good deals on rails right now...you can get a tri rail for $100; a good pistol grip for $25; a foregrip for $15 - trigger group and guard $100 - add some 10 round mags or a 20 round drum and you are good to go. I just threw an on sale $60 green laser on this thing..and am now finished with it. Both my Saigas needed a lot of work - as they came from the factory...if you want something good to go out of the box I would stay away from a Saiga. If you want to file, drill and completely breakdown a shotgun to customize it....I'd get a Saiga. Changing mags is a non issue - a 20 round drum should do the job for anything that anyone here will ever encounter. If not...there are plenty of over the shoulder Mag holders that can carry (5) 10 rounds mags- which would be the hands down fastest reload possible vs pealing individual rounds out a bandoleer and shoving them in a pipe. I just read all your comments on the Saiga sf - they are all ignorant. Truck gun? Saiga can have a shorter barrel and much easier to maneuver than a tube fed gun - some saiga's out there under 12"'s overall length. Want a folding stock? you can do it on a Saiga. The 5 or 8 round mags are fine and don't get in the way at all. Carrying loaded mags in a pouch is easy and much more convenient - slings over the shoulder even easier and more compact. I can just as easily have a mag loaded with 00 buck and slugs - pop whatever is needed in. Sure, the ability to put rounds in the tube is great...but so is having 20 rounds - or reloading 10 rounds in at least 75% faster than a tube fed gun. Your examples of true combat situations ...you would think field striping would be up there in priority - another win in the Saiga column. Armchair commandos? seriously? No, people love Saiga 12's cause you can modify them limitless....to fit any need/style. Benelli is a great gun - well engineered - but they are for way different markets/demographics. If I didn't want to mess with customizing a gun - or expect to do some smithing...I would definitely get a Benelli - especially since it would be cheaper than buying a Tromix. But from a tactical, reliability and functional perspective, the Saiga has no equal as a combat shotgun.

Absintheur | 08-06-2009 04:27 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? I'll stick with my old school Remington 1100...works just fine for me. Still the easiest to find parts and barrels for as well as a wide array of stock options to fit most any shooter, the 1100 is easy and inexpensive to modify. Mine currently has a Speed Feed stock which hold 4 extra rounds in addition to it's 10+1 magazine capacity. It also has a Hasting straight rifled barrel which patterns denser than any other barrel I have shot. A well maintained 1100 is very reliable, mine has never choked in close to 20 years of competition shooting mostly reloads. http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z...uns/1100C2.jpg The only other semi auto shotgun I has the same amount of faith in is my H&K 121, tough to find these days. It won't handle the 7/8 ounce loads like the 1100 will but has the advantage of being the fastest cycling shotgun I have ever used. Mine has been ported and had thin wall choke tubes installed. http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z...otguns/121.jpg

I am me, I am free | 08-06-2009 04:47 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
There is no other tactical shotgun that compares
LOL You're funny! Short of objectivity much? lol You're just trying to justify your own choice in a shotgun. lol There are plenty of tactical shotguns that are more 'tactical' than the Saiga. The Saiga is simply an AK that shoots 12ga. lol Real tactical shotguns are designed from the ground up to be just that. Even you admit it take a lot of work to get the Saiga 'where you want it'. lol The Benelli M2 and M4, the FN SLP, and the 930 all come ready to go as tactical semi-auto shotguns straight out of the box. Not to mention the M1, the M3, and the 1100. I have yet to see a Saiga come with factory ghost ring sights. lol Like I keep saying, the Saiga is a fine, robust shotgun which has it's place, i.e. for holding off the zombie hordes and conducting ambushes, however beyond that it is just plain impractical for the infinite scenarios one is liable to encounter in the real world. The best configuration for a Saiga is with a 20 round drum, and then it's not 'tactical' anymore. lol You remain silent on the tactical deficiencies of the Saiga 12, in particular the inability to immediately switch from slugs to buckshot to whatever on the fly, as well as the ability to continuously reload on the fly. In actual spontaneous CQB it's going to be fire and maneuver, and in those circumstances the timing of a mag change may not work in your favor - the potential for getting caught with your pants around your ankles is much greater. You never addressed the question I asked about grabbing the gun and 50 rounds of ammo (mixed types of ammo such as different types of shot loads, slugs, or sabots). Is it because you don't have an answer for that? You don't see the US Marines using a detachable magazine shotgun, they use the M1014 (M4). Name one military or police agency outside of Russia which uses the Saiga. I can put a rifled choke in my M4 to shoot slugs more accurately. Can you do that with your Saiga? Didn't think so. And I don't care what you say about overall length, a magazine of 10 rounds or greater hanging out the bottom of the Saiga just makes it downright unwieldy for any real world practical/tactical use. Quote:
you would think field striping would be up there in priority - another win in the Saiga column.
You've never field stripped a Benelli, have you? The M4 was specifically designed for the Marine Corps and field strips completely in under two minutes, including removal of the fire control. Quote:
No, people love Saiga 12's cause you can modify them limitless
And there it is: "I like the Saiga 12 because it's 'tacticool'." lol

I am me, I am free | 08-06-2009 04:57 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
Originally Posted by Absintheur (Post 1854542) I'll stick with my old school Remington 1100...works just fine for me. Still the easiest to find parts and barrels for as well as a wide array of stock options to fit most any shooter, the 1100 is easy and inexpensive to modify. Mine currently has a Speed Feed stock which hold 4 extra rounds in addition to it's 10+1 magazine capacity. It also has a Hasting straight rifled barrel which patterns denser than any other barrel I have shot. A well maintained 1100 is very reliable, mine has never choked in close to 20 years of competition shooting mostly reloads. http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z...uns/1100C2.jpg The only other semi auto shotgun I has the same amount of faith in is my H&K 121, tough to find these days. It won't handle the 7/8 ounce loads like the 1100 will but has the advantage of being the fastest cycling shotgun I have ever used. Mine has been ported and had thin wall choke tubes installed. http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z...otguns/121.jpg
Now those are two actual practical shotguns. Excellent choices, and good detailed info on the 1100 based upon mucho practical experience. What you're calling an H&K is actually a Benelli 121 M1 as imported by H&K. The 121 M1 is the first production tactical, high capacity, short-barreled semi-auto shotgun (1980) and is a variant of the 121 aka the SL80. The 121 M1 is what started the trend and it is what everyone else emulated.

Rebel Yarr | 08-06-2009 11:41 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
Originally Posted by I am me, I am free (Post 1854549) LOL You're funny! Short of objectivity much? lol You're just trying to justify your own choice in a shotgun. lol There are plenty of tactical shotguns that are more 'tactical' than the Saiga. The Saiga is simply an AK that shoots 12ga. lol Real tactical shotguns are designed from the ground up to be just that. Even you admit it take a lot of work to get the Saiga 'where you want it'. lol The Benelli M2 and M4, the FN SLP, and the 930 all come ready to go as tactical semi-auto shotguns straight out of the box. Not to mention the M1, the M3, and the 1100. I have yet to see a Saiga come with factory ghost ring sights. lol Like I keep saying, the Saiga is a fine, robust shotgun which has it's place, i.e. for holding off the zombie hordes and conducting ambushes, however beyond that it is just plain impractical for the infinite scenarios one is liable to encounter in the real world. The best configuration for a Saiga is with a 20 round drum, and then it's not 'tactical' anymore. lol You remain silent on the tactical deficiencies of the Saiga 12, in particular the inability to immediately switch from slugs to buckshot to whatever on the fly, as well as the ability to continuously reload on the fly. In actual spontaneous CQB it's going to be fire and maneuver, and in those circumstances the timing of a mag change may not work in your favor - the potential for getting caught with your pants around your ankles is much greater. You never addressed the question I asked about grabbing the gun and 50 rounds of ammo (mixed types of ammo such as different types of shot loads, slugs, or sabots). Is it because you don't have an answer for that? You don't see the US Marines using a detachable magazine shotgun, they use the M1014 (M4). Name one military or police agency outside of Russia which uses the Saiga. I can put a rifled choke in my M4 to shoot slugs more accurately. Can you do that with your Saiga? Didn't think so. And I don't care what you say about overall length, a magazine of 10 rounds or greater hanging out the bottom of the Saiga just makes it downright unwieldy for any real world practical/tactical use. You've never field stripped a Benelli, have you? The M4 was specifically designed for the Marine Corps and field strips completely in under two minutes, including removal of the fire control. And there it is: "I like the Saiga 12 because it's 'tacticool'." lol
And let's see some pics of yours. Just about everything you stated is inaccurate - yet you keep talking it up as if it were true. I already spoke to every point you made in my only post on the topic...not sure why you are simply reiterating your points. Field strips in 2 minutes? how about 10 seconds with the saiga? I highly doubt you have any real experience with either of the shotguns. I think the best point with tube fed shotguns is the loading rounds in the tube at will...but to pretend that it is impossible to load a magazine of slugs - or disregard the efficiency of loading 10 rounds instantly is being biased. Loading out of a bandoleer is tedious - do it in battle looking for your slugs. It's not about tacticool it is about customization - there are even belt fed Saigas out there... Also, I did answer you "grabbing 50 rounds" point - (5) 10 round mags in an over the shoulder bag is more convenient than a bandoleer imo - matter of choice. also the saigas have plenty of chokes....I guess you simply want to argue - not read and comprehend/respond to points. At this point you appear to simply want to win an arguement. If I was going tube fed I'd go with a pump - not a big enough benefit with a semi-auto that sports less than 10 rounds. The advantage of a mag fed shotgun is that you can have a 12 - 26" shotgun that unloads 20 rounds in a few seconds.

ruprick | 08-06-2009 12:07 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Modern Benelli shotguns look to be very popular. I'm still a fan of Remington 1100 for autoloaders.....but that is my Rem 870 background talking. I have no autoloarder shotguns....just pumps....I just counted up 13 total....so yep, I have a problem.....in reality, 1 20ga pump and 1 12 ga pump can do everything.....but I like guns and dislike FRNs...so why not.....

TUMS | 08-06-2009 12:20 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? It would be a boring world without choices. The saiga looks good and the price is definitely right. I kind of dislike how that big heavy magazine hangs down. Kind of hard to go in the prone position if you have to.

Rebel Yarr | 08-06-2009 12:35 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? I guess it depends on the situation you see a shotgun used in. I see a shotgun as entry/clearing gun. A confined quarters lead sprayer. 5 & 8 round mags are no big deal in wieght/length and allow you the advantage of a shorter barrel - without decreasing capacity. I wouldn't want to get in the prone position with a shotgun. I would imagine a shotgun as complementing to a team - not the primary firearm of a team. Not that any of us are using it in these situations ...the main point is customizing/tweaking guns and getting well practiced with maintaining and using them as enthusiasts. That is how I view my "hobby/investment" and it is why I like the saiga so much...and for the same reason why the AR platform is so successful. Customization. There are a million manufacturers out there and a infinite way to setup your firearm. There is no doubt there is the "wow" factor - if you want to call it that. A saiga with a 20-round drum hanging off it and a pistol grip setup is pretty awe inspiring - and a hell of a blast to shoot.

St. Germain | 08-06-2009 01:04 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Love my old 1100s but once i tried the Benelli I was a convert. Can't give an opinion on the Saiga as Ct. (of course) outlawed them. They look very tacticool and I would love to try one out. Rebel's would scare the hell out people just sitting in his gun rack, never mind if they were facing it downrange. ST

icarus87 | 08-06-2009 01:35 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Has no one mentioned the 930spx?

I am me, I am free | 08-06-2009 01:40 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
Originally Posted by icarus87 (Post 1855173) Has no one mentioned the 930spx?
I mentioned it, and it's a good value IMO, although I have no personal experience with it.

tulsamal | 08-06-2009 02:14 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? I've had a Remington 1100 since my 16th birthday. (31 years ago.) I still use that shotgun for hunting. But I decided I wanted some kind of fancy semi-auto "combat shotgun." After a lot of reading online, I went with the FN SLP. It's a heck of a shotgun, well made, very fast cycling, available, and not mega-expensive. Gregg

Absintheur | 08-06-2009 04:25 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
Originally Posted by I am me, I am free (Post 1854550) Now those are two actual practical shotguns. Excellent choices, and good detailed info on the 1100 based upon mucho practical experience. What you're calling an H&K is actually a Benelli 121 M1 as imported by H&K. The 121 M1 is the first production tactical, high capacity, short-barreled semi-auto shotgun (1980) and is a variant of the 121 aka the SL80. The 121 M1 is what started the trend and it is what everyone else emulated.
Well...my Cooper Mini is actually a BMW but I don't call it that...lol. They were made for H&K...H&K marketed them and sold them (I was an H&K dealer when I had my shop). So while technically a Benelli I still refer to them as an H&K. :tongue_ma:

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Rebel Yarr | 08-06-2009 10:45 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
Originally Posted by I am me, I am free (Post 1854549) I can put a rifled choke in my M4 to shoot slugs more accurately. Can you do that with your Saiga? Didn't think so.
I was at work - didn't want to surf up the info on the chokes on the work PC.... not dragging the differing opinions on the Saiga out ...just the facts....Saiga's do have plenty of choke options. There is the Polychoke that I'd assume everyone knows about - screws right on to the factory threads : http://www.poly-choke.com/choke.htm There is the stock saiga configs that come with chokes: Barrel Length / Barrel Type / Choke / Sights Type 24" bbl / Non-treaded / Fixed, Full / Fixed 22" bbl / Non-treaded / Fixed, Full / Fixed 22" bbl / Threaded / 3 chokes / Fixed 19" bbl / Non-treaded / Fixed, IC / Fixed 19" bbl / Non-treaded / Fixed, Full / Adjustable 19" bbl / Threaded / 1 choke / Adjustable There is this Saiga mod: http://www.ak-builder.com/index.php?...oduct_id=29982 Choke tube adapter to fit threaded Saiga 12 shotguns. This will only add 1.5" to the end of the barrel when installed with the choke flush with the end of the adapter. The chokes are the standard Winchokes that can be bought from Cabela's and Bass Pro Shops. Izhmash makes a rifled choke called the Paradox as well. - couldn't find one for sale off a quick google. As for slugs ...I use rifled slugs....I wouldn't bother with a choke for my Saiga's purpose - just adds unnecessary barrel length. If I were rich and needing sabots in Benelli I would buy an aftermarket rfiled barrel for $700 and shoot $4 a pop sabots out of it....but I'm not rich and am pretty practical so $3 for 5 rounds of rifled slugs with close enough performance it is.

Rebel Yarr | 08-06-2009 11:19 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? 6 Attachment(s) Mag/drum Combat Shotguns - USAS-12 shown with drums on table.... Mag 7 - Mag in handle pistol config... Striker - basic fore and pistol grip.... Protecta ...shown with shells.... OG Streetsweeper - oogly green.... AA-12 - on Future weapons a while ago....

Rebel Yarr | 08-06-2009 11:35 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? 1 Attachment(s) Now this is tacticool...

EE_ | 08-06-2009 11:52 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Don't overlook a deal on a Beretta 1201FP...it's the cousin of the Benelli M1 S90. I don't know how available they are these days. I believe they are 7 shot. http://www.papadeltabravo.com/pics/CBJ_1201FP.jpg I like autos that are simple, sleek, light and fast...no gizmos.

Rebel Yarr | 08-06-2009 11:53 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? 4 Attachment(s) Tad extreme ....this is why Saiga's are popular though ...customization is limitless and there are lots of parts out there to do jsut about anything...

EE_ | 08-07-2009 12:04 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Some might laugh, but I took my M1 S90 dove hunting a couple times. It doesn't have the range for doves, but fast moving doves sure do help you aquire targets quickly, and having a light gun does make a difference! Yes, I got my limit on the first trip. http://www.mshuntingadventures.com/i...es-2_thumb.jpg

Rebel Yarr | 08-07-2009 12:17 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
Originally Posted by EE_ (Post 1856342) Some might laugh, but I took my M1 S90 dove hunting a couple times. It doesn't have the range for doves, but fast moving doves sure do help you aquire targets quickly, and having a light gun does make a difference! Yes, I got my limit on the first trip. http://www.mshuntingadventures.com/i...es-2_thumb.jpg
fill the air with led!! Let dog sort them out.

I am me, I am free | 08-07-2009 01:12 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? lol Rebel, thanks for the comic relief via the images you posted. That was great! The fact that you would post an image of a Saiga 12 with that POS K-Var bullpup stock indicates you're without a clue. Most people would be embarassed to post an image of a real POS and imply it's a 'great example of customization', but not you. lol A couple of questions for you: Have you ever actually fired two or more shots from a shotgun under stressfire shooting at some human varmint (firing and maneuvering) fully intending to kill them? (nothing less than the sort of scenario where the cops show up and someone goes to the hospital or the morgue) Have you ever taken any sort of tactical shotgun course, and if so, who's course was it? And thanks again for the comic relief. lol

SilverCity | 08-07-2009 01:31 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Benelli Super-90...:ok: Mine wears a 24 inch VR barrel. Well-balanced for sport/hunting and still manueverable in tighter places.

I am me, I am free | 08-07-2009 01:36 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 1856446) Make mine a Benelli Super-90...:ok:
The handful of friends I suggested go and get a Super 90 M1 were so pleased each went and got another for other family members.

Rebel Yarr | 08-07-2009 01:48 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
Originally Posted by I am me, I am free (Post 1856435) lol Rebel, thanks for the comic relief via the images you posted. That was great! The fact that you would post an image of a Saiga 12 with that POS K-Var bullpup stock indicates you're without a clue. Most people would be embarrassed to post an image of a real POS and imply it's a 'great example of customization', but not you. lol A couple of questions for you: Have you ever actually fired two or more shots from a shotgun under stressfire shooting at some human varmint (firing and maneuvering) fully intending to kill them? (nothing less than the sort of scenario where the cops show up and someone goes to the hospital or the morgue) Have you ever taken any sort of tactical shotgun course, and if so, who's course was it? And thanks again for the comic relief. lol
Comic relief for posting an example picture of some saiga mod - in a bullpup config? Not mine - nor something I would do - however it is a picture of a config. Of course it's not about any of the content ...mr "rifled choke" who didn't even know chokes exist for the saiga. You were wrong on all points...and yet you act as though I am clueless... You just twist words and detour - I never said or implied 'great example of customization' - I said 'customization'. Nobody says you have to like saigas - but your coming on this post bashing saiga folks as "armchair commandos" deserves comment to saiga's value...I think it's plenty visible about your 5 or 6 factually wrong comments that you are FoS.

CQC McDuck | 08-07-2009 02:41 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Getting back on topic. I would recommend the Saiga 12 with Gunfixer's gas plug and Tromix/Tapco trigger conversion to the OP. For the money it's one of the best semi-auto shotguns on the market.

I am me, I am free | 08-07-2009 09:06 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? After spending only about 5 minutes on the Saiga 12 forum I was able to glean this: The Saiga 12 is best suited for use in a static position (like I said earlier, for zombie dispersal and ambushes, not fire and maneuver tactics - which is what most practical uses will be anyway, realistically) Rapid mag changes on the Saiga 12 can be and are problematic (according to someone who recently attended one of Gabe Suarez's classes and others concurred with his assessment) There's the inability to immediately select types of rounds with the Saiga 12 The Saiga 12 is best suited for use on a (minimum) two man team The safety on the Saiga 12 is clunky (even after some mods to 'tweak' it) and is anything but ergonomic (fails the high speed, low drag criteria) So even the biggest fans of the Saiga 12 acknowledge its shortcomings. However those lacking objectivity are unable to do likewise. lol That's not to say that the Saiga 12 doesn't shine in some respects. I like the Saiga 12 'cause I like AKs in general. It's robust, reliable, has low recoil, and it's bombproof. Like gangsta99 posted earlier, it's an amazing gun and it has its place. With respect to an ambush gun it has no equal, imo. If I was in the market for a fun gun, I'd get a Saiga 12. It's just not optimal when it comes to general purpose defensive tactics and is unsuitable for your average Joe for defense at home or away. The Saiga 12 is best suited to offensive tactics, and that's where people run into trouble, especially the untrained/unskilled/unseasoned/uninformed. I bet by now after reading this thread about high capacity autoloaders all you pump action shotgun owners limited to five round mags are feeling inadequately equipped. Don't. Anyone who is unable to disengage/break contact after 4 or 5 shotgun blasts in a defensive mode has poor tactics. Having a large magazine capacity does not offset tactics that suck. lol The beauty of a tube feed gun (including lever action rifles, but excluding .22s) in a defensive mode is the ability to be only 1-2 seconds away from getting a round off at all times, even while topping off the mag. The Saiga 12 fails the 'high speed, low drag' criteria for a defensive gun in many respects, and in a defensive mode, nanoseconds count. 'Tacticool' definitely does not equate to tactical/practical in the RW.

Rebel Yarr | 08-07-2009 11:02 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Sweet!! One thread of reading and you know it all !!! At least you now know 6 or so things you didn't know about the Saiga before you based your opinion on false assumptions. No first hand experience with them and ready to call all of us who own them "armchair commandos". I'm done with you - this thread shows you are nothing but a parrot. Even when proven wrong on multiple points....you can't accept the fact you were wrong. Choice between Saiga and any other semi-auto shotgun is just that. If you go look at the pics of the military shotguns I posted above - you will see the configs of the worlds hi-cap military shotguns. Saiga just happens to be the only legal box fed one in the US.

shades2 | 08-07-2009 11:26 AM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Cool. H&K make shotguns. http://www.gunshopfinder.com/hk.html http://www.gunshopfinder.com/hk/tacticalsemi.asp http://www.gunshopfinder.com/hk/FP6.asp http://www.gunshopfinder.com/hk/FP6A1.asp Otherwise Benelli or maybe Mossberg I think.

I am me, I am free | 08-07-2009 12:11 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
If you go look at the pics of the military shotguns I posted above - you will see the configs of the worlds hi-cap military shotguns. Saiga just happens to be the only legal box fed one in the US.
See? You're mistaken again. lol There's the SPAS-15, a box mag fed semi-auto pump combo, although only 180 were imported into the states. What's noteworthy about the SPAS-15 that even the Italians, i.e. the Carabinieri "Tuscania" and GIS, (the SPAS-15 is made in Italy) have ditched it because it was "deemed "unsatisfactory" as its detachable box magazine made it too bulky and compromised maneuverability." lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benelli_M4#Users http://spas12.com/spas/spas15.jpg As for the other 'military' shotguns you posted images of, the Striker 12/Streetsweeper is a real POS which only a retard would own. I'm guessing you've never handled one, as anyone who has would be embarassed to imply that it's in any way 'desirable'. lol When any military or police agency outside Russia adopts the Saiga 12, let us know. lol

CyberGold | 08-07-2009 04:01 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? This thread sure has turned into a funfest :sarc: I'm not really an AK fan although I used to own a couple. I probably won't consider one but I might look at the Siaga to see how they feel, but more than likely go for a traditional form factor. I didn't realize the Benelli and FN are so pricey. What are the main differences between the M1-M2-M3-M4 models? The Mossberg and Rem are more in the range I envisioned spendiing. Seems like the 1100 mostly has 2 3/4" chambers in the short barrel versions (a 3" mag is available in the longer bbl length models) but the 11-87 has 3" chambers readily available. I would lean toward a 3" chamber duw to not knowing what ammo might be available in the future. I see 11-87 police trade-ins ate reasonable prices. The Mossy seems to have all the desirable features at a lower cost. I have nothing against Mossberg since I have a 590 and 500 and like them both. Does anyone have any experiences or problems with their 930 series? after looking on gunbroker, guess I will have to hit the pawn shops.

I am me, I am free | 08-07-2009 08:20 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? RE: the Benelli models (all these are of the Super 90 series) - M1 - inertia recoil operated, came out after Benelli discontinued the 121 M1/SL 80 in the late '80s (IIRC), so it's a refined 121 M1 with a rotating bolt instead of straight blowback bolt of the 121 M1, now discontinued in favor of the M2; sometimes you can find a good used M1 for less than 900 M2 - inertia recoil operated, replaced the M1, haven't handled one so I'm unfamiliar with the differences; later production models of the M1 under the AWB/import ban and all M2s have factory mag tubes fixed at 5 rounds, but extension +2 extensions are available, but be advised if those are added the 922(r) compliance comes into play M3 - semi-auto/pump combo, also inertia recoil operated in semi-auto mode, some like, some don't like this combo; recoil spring arrangement under forend so folding stock models can be found but are bulky since the stock folds over the top of the receiver - expect to pay 2k+ for the folder, there are some FL mag M3s around, but a those subsequent to the 922(r) crap have 5 round mags (I think +2 extensions are available) M4 - aka the M1014 Joint Service Combat Shotgun, self-cleaning twin piston gas operated, designed specifically for the US Marines and other US military branches, pricey, good luck finding one for under 1,500, although prices have been coming down to earth slightly; the M4 is slightly heavier than the M1-M3 models; in service with the military and/or police of at least six countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benelli_M4#Users The advantage of the gas operated over the inertia recoil operated shotguns is that hanging accessories (such as optics, lights, lasers, etc) on the inertia recoil operated shotguns can cause them to have indigestion with lighter loads due to adding to the overall mass of the shotgun.

Irons | 08-07-2009 08:27 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Benelli super 90. Anything HK is expensive, but with good reason in my experience. http://www.remtek.com/arms/hk/civ/benelli/m1s90.htm http://conspiracyx0.tripod.com/weapons/m1s90.htm

SilverCity | 08-07-2009 09:05 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? I own several of the Saiga rifles in all the calibers and I am hoping the 5.45x39 and 7.62x54R versions arrive on our shores soon, so I can add to my collection. I have shied away from the Saiga shotguns. Read of some of the problems with converted 12s, mainly with poorly done home-jobs and cheap high-capacity mags (same with the rifles, BTW) and decided to pass on the shotguns. To each his own. My gunsmithing friend, who was once a state trap-shooting champion, loves his Saiga 12 and uses it regularly to compete in sporting clays. Doesn't win, but has a ball doing it. YMMV.

gangsta99 | 08-07-2009 09:27 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? SilverCity the 5.35 x 39 version has hit our shores. Centerfire has them right dur ---> Saiga Wholesome Goodness I would buy one right now if I knew I could use AK-74 mags with it or somehow mod it or the mags to work with it. Let me know if you hear anything on that subject. This thread has gone the way of an AK vs. AR thread. You will have fanboys on both sides. Let it go.............. I need to add 4 more firearms to the collection and I think I will be content. 1 12g pump shotty, 1 M1 Garand, 1 AK-74 of some sort and finally a .45 Glock.

I am me, I am free | 08-07-2009 09:34 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Here's a deal for someone wanting a hi-cap Remy 1100 for 600 OBO - http://texasguntrader.com/index.php?a=2&b=28300

Highwayman | 08-07-2009 09:35 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? See avatar.. Saiga/Tromix FTW. I'm currently selling one here: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=136059133

TomD | 08-07-2009 10:24 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Is reliability with any semi-auto shotgun even an issue? I've bird hunted all of my life and used to shoot a BUNCH of trap, skeet and clays. Most of my life I used a Browning A5 that I still have though I swapped to a Beretta a couple of year back. I have no idea how many rounds my old A5 cycled without incident but it could easily be in 6 figures. I've never had a failure to fire or shotgun malfunction in my life. I think I view shotguns through a different prism than most of you guys. I grew up hunting in the South where shotguns were weighed by balance and handling, how they came to the shoulder and swung. I understand Saigas and the like have a different purpose but somehow they seem ridiculous to me. Maybe my problem is the whole image brought to my mind by the word "shotgun" is different from you.

SilverCity | 08-07-2009 10:33 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
Originally Posted by gangsta99 (Post 1857789) SilverCity the 5.35 x 39 version has hit our shores. Centerfire has them right dur ---> Saiga Wholesome Goodness I would buy one right now if I knew I could use AK-74 mags with it or somehow mod it or the mags to work with it. Let me know if you hear anything on that subject.
Gangsta, thanks for the heads up. I would be willing to bet the Surefire 223 mags would work great without any mod...or E. German Weiger mags (with slight modification). Warning: All Federal regs apply.

SilverCity | 08-07-2009 10:43 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1857857) Is reliability with any semi-auto shotgun even an issue? I've bird hunted all of my life and used to shoot a BUNCH of trap, skeet and clays. Most of my life I used a Browning A5 that I still have though I swapped to a Beretta a couple of year back. I have no idea how many rounds my old A5 cycled without incident but it could easily be in 6 figures. I've never had a failure to fire or shotgun malfunction in my life. I think I view shotguns through a different prism than most of you guys. I grew up hunting in the South where shotguns were weighed by balance and handling, how they came to the shoulder and swung. I understand Saigas and the like have a different purpose but somehow they seem ridiculous to me. Maybe my problem is the whole image brought to my mind by the word "shotgun" is different from you.
Tom, I had a Remington 1100 that wouldn't run worth $hit. Not with anything. Took it to 3 certified smiths (1 was factory service rep). No help. Took it back to original store, and owner let me pick another off the used rack. Traded it right away. Went to Walmart and bought a Beretta 390. Same deal would not reliably cycle trap loads, buck loads, field loads. WM sent it back for service. Came back with a big ding in the vent rib...but it worked the few times I tested it. Sold it at the next show and bought me a Benelli S-90 with 24 inch barrel and magazine extension (for balance). No problems as yet. If I do, its getting sold and I go back to my pumps. SC

I am me, I am free | 08-07-2009 10:46 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 1857866) Gangsta, thanks for the heads up. I would be willing to bet the Surefire 223 mags would work great without any mod...or E. German Weiger mags (with slight modification). Warning: All Federal regs apply.
Aim Surplus has surplus com-block AK-74 mags.

SilverCity | 08-07-2009 10:50 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
Originally Posted by I am me, I am free (Post 1857876) Aim Surplus has surplus com-block AK-74 mags.
Or, yes, those. Probably need the bullet guide installed and mag latch modified, though, before they lock in and function properly. The Surefires don't need modification...we will see. I'll let y'all know as soon as I get my hands on one.

maximumrebel1 | 08-07-2009 11:09 PM
Re: Which semi-auto shotgun ? Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1854338) Percieved recoil is ZERO.
I wholeheartedly disagree. It might kick 10% less than any other 12 gauge but thats about it. OP, I have a Saiga 12 and haven't had an issue with it. I have some friends with Bennelli's and they like them aswell.

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