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- - Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=255537)

Big_Rob | 04-10-2008 04:46 PM
Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Read the comments, all they can do is spout off the same old tired bullshit about the streets turning into the wild west and how gun owners are going to lose it at work and kill their co-workers. Quote:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...,5168476.story South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com Florida Senate passes controversial guns-to-work bill Crist says he will sign the controversial measure into law By John Kennedy Jamie Malernee and Jerome Burdi South Florida Sun-Sentinel April 10, 2008 TALLAHASSEE The Republican-led state Senate handed a major election-year victory Wednesday to the National Rifle Association by approving a measure allowing some 500,000 Floridians with concealed-weapons permits to carry their guns to work. In South Florida the reaction was mixed, with business owners expressing concern and gun owners declaring victory. The measure bars employers from banning guns on their premises, provided workers hold concealed-weapons permits and leave the guns locked in their cars. Republican Gov. Charlie Crist said he will have no problem signing the measure into law. "The Second Amendment is very important," Crist said of the U.S. constitutional guarantee protecting the right to bear arms. "I understand there are competing interests ... but people being protected is most important to me." The 26-13 Senate vote broke along party lines � as did the House vote a week earlier in approving the measure. Democrats in both chambers sided with business groups fiercely opposing the change. The vote capped a three-year effort by the NRA, which deluged lawmakers with thousands of e-mails and letters. Just as it had the past two springs, the gun battle pushed Republicans into a political crosswind, forcing them to choose between two drivers of GOP politics: gun supporters and the business lobby. Those two sides remained at odds Wednesday as news of the passage spread to South Florida. Charles Caulkins is a lifelong member of the NRA. Yet the Fort Lauderdale labor attorney called the guns-to-work bill "a very bad idea." "It's completely unnecessary and it exposes employees and employers to unnecessary risks," said Caulkins, managing partner of the Fort Lauderdale firm of Fisher & Phillips, which represents employers. "What if someone loses their mental capacity, goes out and gets the gun and comes in?" He also said the measure could be ruled unconstitutional. A similar law was struck down in Oklahoma for violating federal workplace safety rules. "To have property rights wholesale voided is a big mistake," he said. "I'm sure there will be a challenge." Werner Heldenmuth is the manager of the Flamingo Petroleum gas station in Davie and prohibits weapons on the premises. He said he doesn't care what a new law might say. "No law, no one in the world, can tell me what I can do on my property," he said, "unless we're going into a police state � which is where this is headed." But at the Revere Gun Range in Pompano Beach, Mike Mathews applauded the new legislation. The NRA-certified gun instructor said it restores rights that gun-owners should have had all along. "I carry a gun all the time," Mathews said. "I think a lot of folks feel that they've always had this right and it was taken from them." Jay Dewing, owner of Dewing's Fly and Gun Shop in West Palm Beach, said the bill passed should have gone further, and that being able to have a gun in one's car isn't enough. "Let's say I'm in the mall and there's a mall shooting," he said. "The only reason I see to have [a gun] there is for moments like those and you won't have it." About 500,000 Floridians have concealed-weapons permits. But since the Legislature has shielded these records from public view, businesses may not know who is allowed to carry a weapon, critics say. Certain workplaces, though, can still ban firearms under the bill. Among them: aerospace and defense plants, nuclear-power facilities, schools and prisons. The NRA has pushed the past two years for legislation that would have allowed anyone owning a gun to keep it in their car at work. But last year's effort was defeated in a House committee only two days after a gunman killed 32 people and himself at Virginia Tech. Some predicted there wouldn't be much change under the new legislation because many people already keep guns in their cars. "The state allows you to drive around with a loaded gun for protection," said Joe Rice, manager of Delray Shooting Center in Delray Beach. "There are a lot of dirtbags out there that will kill you just as soon as look at you." Others, like the leader of the Greater Boca Raton Chamber of Commerce, had more dire predictions and urged people to contact Crist in hopes of persuading him to not sign the bill. "The first priority for Florida employers is the safety of their employees, but this legislation does not make workplaces any safer, and studies have shown it may actually lead to more incidents of workplace violence," chamber president Troy McLellan said in a letter.

Twisted Avatar | 04-10-2008 04:56 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed No law, no one in the world, can tell me what I can do on my property," he said, "unless we're going into a police state � which is where this is headed." Man speaks with the clarity of a prophet. T

Tragedy Trousers | 04-10-2008 05:20 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed The local news stations in Florida have been going bonkers with sensational "news" stories on this. They are clearly in the take your gun away crowd.

Fullpower | 04-10-2008 05:28 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Florida is a "SHALL ISSUE" carry state. castle doctrine is an inherent common law right. ALL life forms of whatever description will act in defense.

Mill Man | 04-11-2008 12:47 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Good for Florida. Someone down there must understand the meaning of "shall not be infringed".

J.D.Rockinfeller | 04-11-2008 10:28 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed ....Ha! The ADL is FURIOUS!!....their prolly pouting "we own the media...WE own the lawmakers...WE own the courts....how did THIS happen??" C Heston just smiled...real big. Thanx for the post Rob, its refreshing to konw when we win one once in awhile!

BeeYourself | 04-11-2008 10:40 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed what good is a gun locked in your car out in the parking lot?

Professur | 04-11-2008 10:48 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
"It's completely unnecessary and it exposes employees and employers to unnecessary risks," said Caulkins, managing partner of the Fort Lauderdale firm of Fisher & Phillips, which represents employers. "What if someone loses their mental capacity, goes out and gets the gun and comes in?"
Coz there's no chance that he'd drive all the way home to get them and come back armed ... or just come to work armed for bear in the first place. What a farking idiot.

Mumwaldee | 04-11-2008 11:05 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed .................

GoldWampum | 04-11-2008 11:11 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed I doubt this will hold up on private property. Nice idea though.

Dave | 04-11-2008 11:20 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed This has been a push in Florida. In fact, I will continue to place calls to Governor Crist until the ink is on the paper. Florida is at an interesting balance. We have had a lot of the liberals from the north migrate down to retire in our state and unfortunately they have brought their politics with them. We are having to pass bills like this while we are still a conservative state to protect us in the future. However, with a downturn in the economy, I predict more states will become "conservative" from the liberty standpoint. Dave

Professur | 04-11-2008 11:22 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldWampum (Post 1057237) I doubt this will hold up on private property. Nice idea though.
The argument there, naturally, is ... is a workplace actually private property, since the employees have a right to access?

Big_Rob | 04-11-2008 11:23 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Ive got a simple solution to this. Just dont say anything to your employer about having a gun in the car. I mean, If you concealed carry a gun with a permit, you're not going to spout off about how you've got a gun in the car. What are they going to do, have random car inspections? I think not.

Dave | 04-11-2008 11:32 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Here is another thought. If the employer is not willing to allow you to leave a gun in your car are they going to guarantee your safety during transport to work? I think not. Hmmm potential lawsuit there if you get hurt where a gun could have prevented it..... Hmmm.. Dave

Mumwaldee | 04-11-2008 11:32 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed .................

Mumwaldee | 04-11-2008 11:33 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed ..............

Little Ant | 04-11-2008 11:46 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed I'm in FL. and I have applied for my concealed permit. I have been keeping up with this legislation with interest. Last week I pulled out our employee manual just for the heck of it to see if it addressed firearms. Of course it states that they are prohibited and cause for termination if brought onto the premises. I take that to mean the actual buildings. I was a little shocked to see that there was a provision in the manual that at the administrations discretion all employee handbags, briefcases, backpacks etc are subject to search. I had never noticed that before and neither had anyone else. That's the problem with these 50 page manuals they hand you at orientation as you hardly ever read through them word for word. I've been there 5 years and its never been an issue thus far but I wonder if push came to shove and they demanded searches of cars or handbags etc how that would hold up legally?

Dave | 04-11-2008 12:03 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Ant (Post 1057297) I'm in FL. and I have applied for my concealed permit. I have been keeping up with this legislation with interest. Last week I pulled out our employee manual just for the heck of it to see if it addressed firearms. Of course it states that they are prohibited and cause for termination if brought onto the premises. I take that to mean the actual buildings. I was a little shocked to see that there was a provision in the manual that at the administrations discretion all employee handbags, briefcases, backpacks etc are subject to search. I had never noticed that before and neither had anyone else. That's the problem with these 50 page manuals they hand you at orientation as you hardly ever read through them word for word. I've been there 5 years and its never been an issue thus far but I wonder if push came to shove and they demanded searches of cars or handbags etc how that would hold up legally?
Honestly, I don't believe they can legally search your vehicle but they could ask you to leave. Dave

GoldWampum | 04-11-2008 12:03 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Professur (Post 1057250) The argument there, naturally, is ... is a workplace actually private property, since the employees have a right to access?
If the employer owns it, it is private property. Simple as that. Access is granted according to maintaining the rules of the owner. Can I piss in the skillet in the lunchroom?

Twisted Avatar | 04-11-2008 12:11 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Ant (Post 1057297) I'm in FL. and I have applied for my concealed permit. I have been keeping up with this legislation with interest. Last week I pulled out our employee manual just for the heck of it to see if it addressed firearms. Of course it states that they are prohibited and cause for termination if brought onto the premises. I take that to mean the actual buildings. I was a little shocked to see that there was a provision in the manual that at the administrations discretion all employee handbags, briefcases, backpacks etc are subject to search. I had never noticed that before and neither had anyone else. That's the problem with these 50 page manuals they hand you at orientation as you hardly ever read through them word for word. I've been there 5 years and its never been an issue thus far but I wonder if push came to shove and they demanded searches of cars or handbags etc how that would hold up legally?
Great going Ant!! You are taking the time to become informed.... you are probally the only person that even took the time to open the eyes to the truth of the insanity of job rules.and know you can take appropriate action AWARNESS IS EVERYTHING!!! T

GoldWampum | 04-11-2008 12:12 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave (Post 1057266) Here is another thought. If the employer is not willing to allow you to leave a gun in your car are they going to guarantee your safety during transport to work? I think not. Hmmm potential lawsuit there if you get hurt where a gun could have prevented it..... Hmmm.. Dave
They don't have to. It's up to you to figure out what to do with your gun if you choose to carry it up to the gate. Now, you can ASK them to provide a checkstation. Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumwaldee (Post 1057267) And do the rights of the corp trump the rights of the individual.
The rights of the property owner trump the rights of the person who wants access. Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave (Post 1057316) Honestly, I don't believe they can legally search your vehicle but they could ask you to leave. Dave
All it takes is a sign at the gate and a signature on a piece of paper required for access. You guys never heard of conditions of employment? This shit was all tried with drug testing. You have a choice to accept the conditions. You have a choice to work there or not. If I want a guy to dig a ditch in my yard, I have a right to require he not be armed. He has a right to accept or reject the employment. It's not about individual vs. corp. It's about property rights.

Mumwaldee | 04-11-2008 12:13 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed ...................

Big_Rob | 04-11-2008 12:18 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumwaldee (Post 1057270) It seems like I've read about some businesses threatening to do just that...let me do some snooping and see what I can find. Of course I'd tell them to go fark themselves and find a better job, but you know how the sheep can be.
Exactly. I would tell them that since I didnt sign any agreement to let them search my car they could fuxXorz right off.

GoldWampum | 04-11-2008 12:23 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumwaldee (Post 1057333) ??? :eek_ma:
Think about it. Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Rob (Post 1057252) Ive got a simple solution to this. Just dont say anything to your employer about having a gun in the car. I mean, If you concealed carry a gun with a permit, you're not going to spout off about how you've got a gun in the car. What are they going to do, have random car inspections? I think not.
That's the smart way. I always have one packed. I just don't tell 'em. Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Rob (Post 1057340) Exactly. I would tell them that since I didnt sign any agreement to let them search my car they could fuxXorz right off.
They need that sig. Most people sign it without looking. I've signed them. If they discover and wanta fire me ... so what? I was lookin for a job when I found that one.

Big_Rob | 04-11-2008 12:52 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed A company that searches its employees for the hell of it, is a company that is going to lose a lot of employees. Think about it. Why would you subject yourself to random vehicle searches for a 10.00 per hour job? I know I wouldn't put up with that nonsense. Of course, I would keep my mouth shut about my status as a concealed weapon and firearm permit holder as well.

Iptuous | 04-11-2008 01:06 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed gotta agree with Wampum here. It sucks for them to disallow you carrying into the parking lot, but it's THEIR parking lot, they set the rules. also, I have certainly seen others out in the parking lot admiring a new hunting shotgun, etc. at my place of employment, even though it is verboten. also, i do not support skillet pissing rights.

Abouthadit | 04-11-2008 02:09 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Good for Florida. Now everyone needs to call Gov Purdue in GA to demand that he sigh HB 89, passed by both houses now on his desk. Call: 404-656-1776. Be polite.

Dave | 04-11-2008 02:30 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldWampum (Post 1057332) They don't have to. It's up to you to figure out what to do with your gun if you choose to carry it up to the gate. Now, you can ASK them to provide a checkstation.
I like this better. Wampum, I have to admit, after thinking about the property right repercussions, I am liking this bill less and less. If the state can regulate property rights you in a sense are infringing the right of the property owner to set his/her own rules over the right of someone to carry a weapon. Think about it folks, what to stop the government from restricting property rights even further?! This Bill would potentially set a legal precedent in the first court cases potentially allowing further property rights to be restricted on things outside of the right to carry. You truly have to consider the most reckless use of a bill to comprehend the potential damage it can cause. Wow, I just did a 180. Property rights are at the core of our sovereignty. Looks like I need to make some additional calls to the governor. Dave

Mumwaldee | 04-11-2008 02:44 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed .................

Dave | 04-11-2008 02:54 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumwaldee (Post 1057562) The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. As long as a firearm isn't being used in a crime, you should be able to carry one wherever you go. The property owner that says I can't work there with a gun in my car can kiss my ass.
I have to agree, I would likely carry anyways too but the point is if it wasn't much of an issue in the past so why bring it up now? I smell an agenda with this one. Dave

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Abouthadit | 04-11-2008 03:03 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumwaldee (Post 1057562) The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
The Constitution is a limit on the federal government. How the people decide to rule themselves is another matter.

Mumwaldee | 04-11-2008 03:05 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed ................

Mumwaldee | 04-11-2008 03:12 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed ......................

Dave | 04-11-2008 03:13 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Abouthadit (Post 1057588) The Constitution is a limit on the federal government. How the people decide to rule themselves is another matter.
This is exactly my concern. The last place you can truly "make your own rules" is on your property so I can see the implication of a law that allowed states to regulate property access as an ADDITIONAL power given to government; at least at the State level and is one more infringement on the property owner. Please do NOT mistake my concern for property rights because I am nothing less than an avid gun rights supporter. Honestly, I am torn with the amendment. Dave

Mumwaldee | 04-11-2008 03:20 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed .....................

Dave | 04-11-2008 03:43 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumwaldee (Post 1057625) If no crime is being committed then I don't see where it's the employer's business what kind of car you have...or what you have in it. Employers telling their employees to disarm is craziness. Would you allow your boss to control other aspects of your life? Giving up your right to self defense could mean giving up your life.
I totally understand your logic as do I understand the logic from the property rights aspect. This is causing me quite a bit of conflict because I don't want someone telling me what I can allow on my property any more than I don't want someone telling me I can't take my gun to work. This bill really needs to be analyzed better than what it has. The last thing I want to happen is this somehow being turned around as a way to regulate our property in other ways. Obviously, the argument over personal protection is just as compelling because you are talking about someone right to self defense. The problem is, where bringing a gun to work wasn't on anyones radar before, it is now! Most people probably without issue carried their guns to work anonymously. Now, if by chance this bill gets challenged and the "Liberal Florida Supreme Court" calls the bill unconstitutional, we just opened up ourselves to more potential restriction of our 2nd amendment. Uhg... Dave

Mumwaldee | 04-11-2008 04:04 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed ..................

Dave | 04-11-2008 04:26 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumwaldee (Post 1057717) I am the opposite I guess. I hope they bring more of these cases to the courts. Maybe common sense will win out and folks will see that if more "good" people carry firearms then "bad" people will behave or pay the price. Some people would rather "feel" safe than BE safe. I hope they will get to the point they allow teachers to carry firearms in schools. And if the courts decide against gun owners...well we always have plan B.
Memwaldee, I totally get what your trying to say because I feel the same way. The only problem is, traditionally in Florida our Supreme court is pretty liberal and I fear what would happen to cases like this in their hands. When our rights are constantly under assault, and more people can tell you who won The American Idol than who our President is, there is a fundamental problem. When you are flying in enemy territory you are best flying under the radar and that's what I don't like about this bill, it puts a bulls-eye on us. Dave

Silver Uno | 04-14-2008 10:54 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Every one bitchin about being an employee oughta quit and become a consultant and work at home. Show these huge corps with huge CEO salaries that you can sell your own services for a heck of a lot better than 10 bucks an hour with no benifits. You could do that at home on ebay. Better yet, get with fellow workers and form a co-op where you can sell your services and labor for the highest price. Show 'em how capitalism and democracy is supposed to work. And, carry a gun any damn where you please. I quit the Corp in1994 and never looked back. su

Dave | 04-14-2008 02:56 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Uno (Post 1061098) Every one bitchin about being an employee oughta quit and become a consultant and work at home. Show these huge corps with huge CEO salaries that you can sell your own services for a heck of a lot better than 10 bucks an hour with no benifits. You could do that at home on ebay. Better yet, get with fellow workers and form a co-op where you can sell your services and labor for the highest price. Show 'em how capitalism and democracy is supposed to work. And, carry a gun any damn where you please. I quit the Corp in1994 and never looked back. su
+1 I have been self employed for about the same amount of time. Choose your own destiny. Dave

Abouthadit | 04-14-2008 04:37 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumwaldee (Post 1057625) If no crime is being committed then I don't see where it's the employer's business what kind of car you have...or what you have in it. Employers telling their employees to disarm is craziness. Would you allow your boss to control other aspects of your life? Giving up your right to self defense could mean giving up your life.
Agreed. At some time the people will have to speak out for the primacy of self defense. IMHO every person has the God given, natural law rights of life, liberty and happiness(property) and that necessarily means unmitigated self protection. When people choose to create governments they do not relinquish those three basic rights. What needs clearing up is that property rights do not trump self protection.

Dave | 04-14-2008 05:13 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Abouthadit (Post 1061576) Agreed. At some time the people will have to speak out for the primacy of self defense. IMHO every person has the God given, natural law rights of life, liberty and happiness(property) and that necessarily means unmitigated self protection. When people choose to create governments they do not relinquish those three basic rights. What needs clearing up is that property rights do not trump self protection.
I still don't follow the logic of self-protection trumping property rights.... Lets say for the spirit of debate you want to enter my private property with my consent and I tell you not to come armed; you are essentially saying I do not have the right to deny you access based on you carrying a weapon? Since when am I dictated to as a property owner who can or can not come on my property and under what conditions?! I think you guys are overlooking a fundamental sovereignty issue here. NOBODIES 2nd amendment rights TRUMPS MY RIGHTS TO SOVEREIGNTY! By the way, I will use the 2nd amendment to GUARANTEE MY SOVEREIGNTY! Dave

Percival | 04-14-2008 06:28 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Wampum makes sense, as usual. I say do away with this legislation and support a man's right to make the rules on his property, but carry your pistol and keep your mouth shut about it.

Prometheus | 04-14-2008 08:58 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave (Post 1061622) I still don't follow the logic of self-protection trumping property rights.... Lets say for the spirit of debate you want to enter my private property with my consent and I tell you not to come armed; you are essentially saying I do not have the right to deny you access based on you carrying a weapon? Since when am I dictated to as a property owner who can or can not come on my property and under what conditions?! I think you guys are overlooking a fundamental sovereignty issue here. NOBODIES 2nd amendment rights TRUMPS MY RIGHTS TO SOVEREIGNTY! By the way, I will use the 2nd amendment to GUARANTEE MY SOVEREIGNTY! Dave
Big +1 there. The Florida bill is trampling on the Rights of property owners in order to give a privilege to gun owners. Sorry kids, you get to come onto my property (business or private) at MY WILL. I can ask you to leave for whatever reason I want, no shirt, no shoes, "Black tie only", no guns. My question is what kind of retard wants to support a anti gun business? "Hey ya'll lets force this anti gun company to let me carry a gun so we can get more money into their pockets to pass more b.s. laws!" Gun owners as a whole are idiots. They support bills like this but do nothing to repeal all the laws that actually do infringe on their Rights. They support f'ed up groups like the NRA that do crap like this, but at the same time support bills like the '68, '86 and 89 bans and put the sunset clause on the 94 ban ensuring it actually would pass. On the plus side, maybe it's only 4 million guns owners (i.e. the nra) who are dumb@$$es and the other 90 million simply haven't heard of the GOA or JPFO... Back to property Rights: "The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the law of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence." -John Adams. "As long as our government is administered for the good of the people, and is regulated by their will; as long as it secures to us the rights of persons and of property, liberty of conscience and of the press, it will be worth defending." -Andrew Jackson "The system of private property is the most important guaranty of freedom, not only for those who own property, but scarcely less for those who do not." -Hayek Fredrich August von "Private property was the original source of freedom. It still is its main bulwark." -Lippmann Walter Also the #1 plank Karl Marx's, Communist Manifesto: "1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. property quotes link

LukeNM | 04-14-2008 09:10 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed In New Mexico your car is considered an extension of your home (personal property) and you can have a gun in it, loaded on the front seat if you want or hidden without a CCW Permit. As far as being in the parking lot of your employer, I do not think it is any of their business what I have in my car.

Awoke | 04-14-2008 09:34 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed *Very proud of Florida* I hope the other states follow suit.

Dave | 04-14-2008 11:27 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus (Post 1061958) The Florida bill is trampling on the Rights of property owners in order to give a privilege to gun owners. Sorry kids, you get to come onto my property (business or private) at MY WILL. I can ask you to leave for whatever reason I want, no shirt, no shoes, "Black tie only", no guns. My question is what kind of retard wants to support a anti gun business? "Hey ya'll lets force this anti gun company to let me carry a gun so we can get more money into their pockets to pass more b.s. laws!" Gun owners as a whole are idiots. They support bills like this but do nothing to repeal all the laws that actually do infringe on their Rights. They support f'ed up groups like the NRA that do crap like this, but at the same time support bills like the '68, '86 and 89 bans and put the sunset clause on the 94 ban ensuring it actually would pass.
Prometheus, You hit the proverbial nail on the head. You indeed understand what is at stake with laws like this. TOO MANY PEOPLE are interested in just the application of a single issue be it gun rights, freedom of speech, religion, abortion, and so on. They BLINDLY support their liberty-de-jour without the consideration of the infringement that may have on another person's liberty. If you honestly think the creation of new laws like this actually advances our liberties you are simply misinformed. Why would you create a law that grants rights when the constitution is written to limit government? Above it was mentioned that the 2nd amendment trumps all rights, well that is true when you apply that to just yourself because it is impossible for a person to infringe their own rights. However, when you say your 2nd amendment rights trumps my property rights then you are DEAD WRONG. As Prometheus mentioned above, why would you not repeal laws versus create laws to gain additional rights? This process is so backwards I can't even begin to explain. I particularly enjoyed the quote by Karl Marx: "Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes." To the fortune of Karl and communism it seems people have unwittingly advanced his cause in Florida by supporting this bill. Unfortunately, this is not a day I am proud to be called a Floridian. Dave

ProblemSolver | 04-15-2008 10:01 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Do any Floridians on the board have any information about particular cases where a business tried to ban weapons in vehicles parked in their lots? I've been trying to find the impetus behind the NRA's actions, but all I can find is the phrase, "Some Florida businesses are trying to ban guns in cars in parking lot used by customers and employees." Also, are there any incidents where an employee had a firearm in their vehicle, and they used it to cause trouble? This bill doesn't make much sense. In my opinion, it's much ado for nothing. It would REALLY be something if they allowed carry on premises, but, if one of your crazed fellow employees comes in shooting, what the hell good is your gun doing you locked in your car. That, in addition to the stomping on private property rights, makes this bill a bad idea.

Cassius | 04-15-2008 10:16 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed I have been self-employed for a year and a half and I concur wholeheartedly. Also, it IS a matter of property rights -- my person is MY property. If I am at your place of business, the clothing I am wearing and what is under them or in my pockets is MY PROPERTY, not yours, and you have no right to demand that I not carry any object I am lawfully allowed to be in possession of. That is the way it should be and I'm glad Florida is standing up for the second amendment. Now, in an at-will employment state they are free to terminate your employment if they don't like the fact that you carry a gun, or if they just don't like the color of the tie you picked out this morning. In fact they can fire you for no reason at all, that is what "at-will" means. And it's a good thing, employment is contractual and consensual and I think either party should be "able" to terminate at any time for almost any reason. That is why concealed means concealed.

Big_Rob | 04-15-2008 10:28 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed I know that Pizza Hut forbids their employees from having firearms in their cars. I also believe a company that I used to work for called The Answer Group prohibits firearms in their parking lot but I haven't worked there in about 7 years. With that said, I know that the parking lot might be their property. But my car is my property, what I have in my car is my property. Just because I park my car on your property doesn't make it (nor the contents of) your property. I still say keep your mouth shut about having a gun in your car and everything will be alright, what your boss doesn't know wont get you fired.

Dave | 04-15-2008 12:24 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Rob (Post 1062750) I still say keep your mouth shut about having a gun in your car and everything will be alright, what your boss doesn't know wont get you fired.
This is simply the best answer to this. Why make a big deal about this and pass a bill? It doesn't really help gun owners since most just carry anyways but it does compromise property rights. Again, not a smart move on the part of the Florida legislature. Dave

Prometheus | 04-15-2008 12:56 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassius (Post 1062726) I have been self-employed for a year and a half and I concur wholeheartedly. Also, it IS a matter of property rights -- my person is MY property. If I am at your place of business, the clothing I am wearing and what is under them or in my pockets is MY PROPERTY, not yours, and you have no right to demand that I not carry any object I am lawfully allowed to be in possession of. That is the way it should be and I'm glad Florida is standing up for the second amendment.
So you own a formal dining establishment (suit jacket required, black tie ect.) lets say and a couple comes in wearing swim trunks and a thong ("legally owned" by your reasoning), the owner doesn't have a Right to ask them to leave? BULL$HIT! What about a big sign saying "This place sucks!" You can't ask them to leave? What about their first amendment Rights? You have NO RIGHT to be on that property. You are a guest and everything on you is. You are there at the pleasure of the property owner. Period. I'm sorry I can't hold this back anymore but you people in support of this are completely and totally IGNORANT of ALL Rights. The Constitution and it's Amendments are to restrain the GOVERNMENT not private citizens and business owners. You have no Right to be on private property and thus you have no Right to carry a firearm there. Once again for those who obviously are very slow in understanding this most basic of Rights issue, let me go over it again with two examples: #1 Just because you have a 1st amendment Right to have gay porn doesn't give you a 1a Right to post gay porn on this website. Why? Because it's not yours! It's privately owned and open to the public at the owners pleasure. Period. #2 Another 1 a example, a business or home owner can ban you from their property for placing fliers on cars... legal items and a 1st amendment protected freedom, but guess what, you don't have a Right to do it on private property... why? Because it's not your property! In addition- What you simpletons fail to realize is that this WILL go before the Florida Supreme Court and you will have two Rights squaring off in what should be a Right and a privilege. A somewhat LIBERAL Florida Supreme will get to decide if your property Rights can be trampled on by a privilege (access to private property) being mascaraed as a Right. If the idiots pushing to destroy property Rights win it trashes private property law. If the idiots on the anti-gun side win it sets up precedence on ACTUAL firearms Rights. This isn't complicated. This is exactly the same stupidity the antigunners use in trying to force gun control down the throats of gun owners. Please, use your brains. Please read the Constitution.

SilverCity | 04-15-2008 02:12 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed FWIW the Walmart in my town no longer displays the NO FIREARMS ALLOWED sign...not sure if new signs are in the process of being made or it reflects a new policy change from Walmart Corp.

Dave | 04-15-2008 02:47 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus (Post 1062985) You have NO RIGHT to be on that property. You are a guest and everything on you is. You are there at the pleasure of the property owner. Period.
Prometheus, this is my point exactly. When you are on private property you are there as a guest under whatever conditions the owner wants to impose REGARDLESS of how ridiculous they are. People behind this amendment have the assumption they have the right to be on anyones private property; whenever or wherever they want. The simple fact is you DO NOT have the right to enter anybodies property without permission. This is a very fundamental issue. Just simply because you have items on your person does not have the same application as it would standing on your own property versus someone else's. When you are in "transit" on public property you are totally within your right to carry weapons but the minute you leave public property you are now subject to the rules of the private property you ingress upon. These are called sovereignty rights. If you have an ounce of respect for what the founding fathers had to say about sovereignty then you would appreciate the issue with this bill. Dave

Dave | 04-23-2008 08:34 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed I just wanted to ARTICULATE the point I was trying to make about this bill. Thanks to the ignorance of those who brought this bill forward, in record time it has already been challenged in court: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/brea...ry/504152.html Now, instead of a relatively conservative legislature working this bill you have one of Florida's most liberal courts getting prepared to rule on your second amendment rights. I am not here to gloat because I too live in Florida so I am QUITE PISSED that the blind support of this bill has now subjected my rights to the liberal Florida Court system. :banghead: Dave

Twisted Avatar | 04-23-2008 09:05 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Rob (Post 1062750) I know that Pizza Hut forbids their employees from having firearms in their cars. I also believe a company that I used to work for called The Answer Group prohibits firearms in their parking lot but I haven't worked there in about 7 years. With that said, I know that the parking lot might be their property. But my car is my property, what I have in my car is my property. Just because I park my car on your property doesn't make it (nor the contents of) your property. I still say keep your mouth shut about having a gun in your car and everything will be alright, what your boss doesn't know wont get you fired.
Bingo! If I keep a gun in my car .....it is not because I want to save the world...it just that I am in fear of my life. And NOBODY os going to deny me access to the tools that I can have at my disposal to make sure I stay breathing . My Momma told me: When the law breaks common sense....... you break the law. T

Twisted Avatar | 04-23-2008 09:10 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Laws do nothing except strenghten the hand of the state and gubbermint...and every law that is passed in due time can be turned on its head and used against you. Period end of story. T

Dave | 04-23-2008 09:48 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1074541) Laws do nothing except strenghten the hand of the state and gubbermint...and every law that is passed in due time can be turned on its head and used against you. Period end of story. T
+1 Amen TA! When you amend the constitution to grant rights you now have reversed the purpuse and intent of a document written to LIMIT GOVERNMENT! Less laws, not more laws, is the key to liberty. Dave

Prometheus | 04-23-2008 01:13 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave (Post 1074494) I am not here to gloat because I too live in Florida so I am QUITE PISSED that the blind support of this bill has now subjected my rights to the liberal Florida Court system.
Thank the glorious nra for yet another snafu. Seems the only people less intelligent than the average gun owner is the average nra member... and we wonder why our Rights are being destroyed at a record pace? :banghead:

Awoke | 04-23-2008 05:12 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed I must have badly misunderstood this bill, because I thought it was a good thing to carry a pistol if you're allowed to.

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Prometheus | 04-23-2008 05:32 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Awoke (Post 1075380) I must have badly misunderstood this bill, because I thought it was a good thing to carry a pistol if you're allowed to.
Basically in a nutshell it's about Private Property Rights vs the privilege extended to persons there to shop/visit/work. Unfortunately many gun owners somehow believe that they have a right to be on private property. They don't. Since they don't have a right to be there, they also don't have a right to carry a gun, hold protests signs, wear tanks tops or whatever other rules the private property owner imposes. If the gun owners had a Right to be there (actual public places owned by the public) then they most certainly would have Right to carry. Also there is the total hypocrisy in their thinking that somehow a car is private property and exempt from the rules of the property owner but your body is NOT private property and thus can be banned from carry of a firearm. Idiots, each and every one of them.

Twisted Avatar | 04-23-2008 05:38 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave (Post 1074592) +1 Amen TA! When you amend the constitution to grant rights you now have reversed the purpuse and intent of a document written to LIMIT GOVERNMENT! Less laws, not more laws, is the key to liberty. Dave
Thankd for the bump Dave. But the truth is probally 1 for every 6 million people probally grasp the implacations of what we jut discussed. T

Worldmariner | 05-15-2008 03:43 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldWampum (Post 1057237) I doubt this will hold up on private property. Nice idea though.
Well, there is a strong argument that a gas station, OPEN TO THE PUBLIC is not "private" property per se and protected under the Castle Doctrine per se as an indiviual's home might be. Also, I would guess that the gas station is owned by a CORPORATION, and not the indiviual, unless he organised under Sole Proprietorship. Even if he is the owner of the BUSINESS, the BUSINESS owns the property, and the property is OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. -WM

Worldmariner | 05-15-2008 03:50 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus (Post 1075427) Basically in a nutshell it's about Private Property Rights vs the privilege extended to persons there to shop/visit/work. Unfortunately many gun owners somehow believe that they have a right to be on private property. They don't. Since they don't have a right to be there, they also don't have a right to carry a gun, hold protests signs, wear tanks tops or whatever other rules the private property owner imposes. If the gun owners had a Right to be there (actual public places owned by the public) then they most certainly would have Right to carry..
Hmm... I think you might be onto it... I had not thought of that argument in my post of 2 minutes ago. Well, if the place is open for business, then there is the argument that there exists a general invitation to be on the property, but with restrictions as may be imposed by the owner? In Florida, you can CCW anyplace except (abbreviated list) school, Federal Building, and anyplace that HAS A SIGN stating that no firearms are allowed. So, in Florida, the BUSINESS owner must make it known that no firearms are allowed. Not sure how that would translate to EMPLOYEES. I think trespass on private property (posted) with a firearm is actually a crime.

Worldmariner | 05-15-2008 03:57 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 1063094) FWIW the Walmart in my town no longer displays the NO FIREARMS ALLOWED sign...not sure if new signs are in the process of being made or it reflects a new policy change from Walmart Corp.
Well, how can they have that sign if they SELL firearms?? People come and go all day with guns at WalMart. I wonder if they instead now have a policy posted in the back room regarding EMPLOYEE firearms carry? Do you know and employee there? Maybe you could ask the gun counter guy what is up with WalMart and thier policy? -WM

Worldmariner | 05-15-2008 04:04 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus (Post 1062985) I'm sorry I can't hold this back anymore but you people in support of this are completely and totally IGNORANT of ALL Rights. In addition- What you simpletons fail to realize is that this WILL go before the Florida Supreme Court and you will have two Rights squaring off in what should be a Right and a privilege. This isn't complicated. This is exactly the same stupidity the antigunners use in trying to force gun control down the throats of gun owners. Please, use your brains. Please read the Constitution.
Prom, I understand the two issues here... Castle Doctrine, derived from English Common law, and the 2nd amendment. I think it will come down to which legal theory is held superior. I personally want the Castle Doctrine held superior. I feel that the word "simpleton" is not appropriate. Plenty of smart people here; just many have not actually READ the Constitution, or a very basic treatise on English Common Law, or Treaty Law. -WM

Cassius | 05-15-2008 04:58 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
So you own a formal dining establishment (suit jacket required, black tie ect.) lets say and a couple comes in wearing swim trunks and a thong ("legally owned" by your reasoning), the owner doesn't have a Right to ask them to leave? BULL!
I never said that he couldn't ask them to leave. In fact I implied that he could ask them to leave for ANY reason, whether posted or not, just like an employer in an at-will employment state can terminate your employment for any reason or no reason. What he could NOT do is force them to take off the shorts there on the spot, because it is "forbidden clothing". I know that seems ridiculous but that is the legal distinction we are talking about. Technically, you DO have the legal right to "piss in the skillet in the breakroom" provided that it does not damage property in any way. Piss in the sink, maybe, rather than a skillet. Your employer then has the right to fire you if you do that. But you have not committed a crime, unless we're talking about indecent exposure or something. You may have violated COMPANY POLICY but you have not violated LAW. You may have been morally in the wrong but not legally. Just like my employer can make a policy to only park on one side of the building... if I do not obey that, have I committed a crime? I think not. In the case of entering a formal restaurant with swim trunks (lawfully owned, which is different than legally owned), this is what the law says: If, and only if, the owner asks me to leave and I do not comply, I have violated the law against trespassing. If I comply, I have committed no crime. If the owner does not ask me to leave, I have committed no crime. Until and unless the owner tells me to leave, no crime has been committed. Therefore it is not a crime to simply walk in the building wearing "prohibited" clothing. Yes, it is my legal right to enter a restaurant (a public area) wearing whatever lawful clothing I wish regardless of their policy. Now, IF (I say IF) they have a posted sign that is worded, "No informal wear beyond this point", that could be construed as a declaration of trespassing just like a "No trespassing" sign will legally forbid entry (barring exigent circumstances in some cases, like emergency egress). But I have never seen a restaurant with a posted sign indicating WHERE the "dress policy" begins. A reasonable person would conclude that the lobby is open to all, and trespassing law says that where an area has public access, you MUST ask a person to leave BEFORE they are "trespassing" and until that request or demand, no crime has been committed and no law violated. (Disclaimer, I am not a lawyer, this is only my layman's understanding of the law, blah blah blah)

Dave | 05-15-2008 05:16 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassius (Post 1104932) I never said that he couldn't ask them to leave. In fact I implied that he could ask them to leave for ANY reason, whether posted or not, just like an employer in an at-will employment state can terminate your employment for any reason or no reason. What he could NOT do is force them to take off the shorts there on the spot, because it is "forbidden clothing". I know that seems ridiculous but that is the legal distinction we are talking about.
I think we all tend to agree in principle, we are just looking at this in slightly different perspectives. I personally don't like this Bill because it now introduces the risk of litigation, which could further jeopardize our carry rights in Florida based on a potential court ruling against this Bill. Oh, and did I ever tell you Florida has a Liberal Court system? -well it does and this is my concern. I really don't fancy the idea of the Florida court system ruling on this Bill. To me this outcome is blatantly obvious so I truly have to QUESTION the intent of the NRA in introducing a Bill that really was not needed? This Bill will now stir up trouble where there was none before and if the courts do end up ruling against this, then now CCWs may be exposed to more liability then just a "trespassing" charge if they carry on property an owner does not permit it. We need less Bills not more... Dave

Worldmariner | 05-16-2008 08:38 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Ant (Post 1057297) I'm in FL. and I have applied for my concealed permit. I have been keeping up with this legislation with interest. ?
Most gun shops in Florida carry a bgreen book called the Sixth Edition of Florida Firearms Laws. $20. Worth buying!

GoldWampum | 05-16-2008 10:49 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Some excellent thoughts and posts. Beware the double edged sword. Personally, I agree that they should not have brought up the at work thing. Encouraging carry is a great idea, making it easy is also great. I would say if left at that, people would get real used to people being armed as a right and as time passes it would not be such an issue. Challenging property owners from the get-go however can backfire and possibly nullify the gains. Quote:
I think we all tend to agree in principle, we are just looking at this in slightly different perspectives. I personally don't like this Bill because it now introduces the risk of litigation, which could further jeopardize our carry rights in Florida based on a potential court ruling against this Bill. Oh, and did I ever tell you Florida has a Liberal Court system? -well it does and this is my concern. I really don't fancy the idea of the Florida court system ruling on this Bill. To me this outcome is blatantly obvious so I truly have to QUESTION the intent of the NRA in introducing a Bill that really was not needed? This Bill will now stir up trouble where there was none before and if the courts do end up ruling against this, then now CCWs may be exposed to more liability then just a "trespassing" charge if they carry on property an owner does not permit it. We need less Bills not more... Dave
Good post Dave

vacuum | 05-17-2008 08:14 PM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed So this all comes down to whether an employer is allowed to search you or not.

Saul Mine | 05-18-2008 01:04 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Try to remember, this country was founded by nuts with guns. Even worse, they were religious nuts!

WAoG | 05-18-2008 01:27 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave (Post 1074494) I just wanted to ARTICULATE the point I was trying to make about this bill. Thanks to the ignorance of those who brought this bill forward, in record time it has already been challenged in court: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/brea...ry/504152.html Now, instead of a relatively conservative legislature working this bill you have one of Florida's most liberal courts getting prepared to rule on your second amendment rights. I am not here to gloat because I too live in Florida so I am QUITE PISSED that the blind support of this bill has now subjected my rights to the liberal Florida Court system. :banghead: Dave
That is how they work. Its better to leave well enough alone.

WAoG | 05-18-2008 01:55 AM
Re: Florida HB 503 passed in the Florida Senate and the anti-gunners are P.O.ed I believe this all comes down to signs. In this state you can walk onto any property that is not posted. You can carry your gun or a fishing pole. If you are open for business and you do not want people carrying guns into your business I would assume that you would place large signs stating this. If not, well expect people to be carrying guns into you business I'm not even sure that even works here as you need no trespassing, no hunting signs to stop hunters. Its not even like you can put up one little sign. You have to put them up like every fifty feet all around your property. . I normally keep a gun close by. I have never see a sign telling me they do not want guns in there business or parking lot. I have not looked hard for small signs. I do not believe anyone that invites people onto their property has a right to go through my car or pockets. If you do not want me and my guns post the no trespassing signs.

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