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Toxa | 03-23-2010 11:05 PM
help me choose ammo I'm starting to look for ammo in 223 to put away. What brand you guys are stocking up with? I was thinking wolf in sardine cans, they should be a good bet. Those cans should keep ammo in good condition for a decade, or more if stored properly. Also if any one reloads how do your store your primers and powder long term?

Haltiat | 03-23-2010 11:36 PM
Re: help me choose ammo The Wolf will shoot but be aware that steel jacketed 5.56x45 won't fragment like M193.

StrawMan=Corporation | 03-24-2010 12:18 AM
Re: help me choose ammo I wouldn’t use wolf or any steel cased ammo in my rifles. I used a 308 norinco round in my DSA FAL and the round got stuck in the chamber and took a steel rod to remove. From what I figured from it happening to me and also what I have read the lacquer coated round gets sticky when its inserted into the hot chamber and then the extractor rips off the rim of the round and then FTE. What I would use is the green tip ss109 or M885.

platinumdude | 03-24-2010 12:20 AM
Re: help me choose ammo I like stocking up on American Eagle. Good target shooting ammo.

Absintheur | 03-24-2010 08:59 AM
Re: help me choose ammo I would stock up on what your rifle likes to shoot...what is accurate and reliable in your rifle and not worry about brand. All my ARs like PRVI 62 grain so that is what I stocked up on in the summer of 2008. ( I saw this shortage coming)

mick silver | 03-24-2010 09:59 AM
Re: help me choose ammo i clean my guns so wolf works for me . cheap is better . i buy the good stuff for later

Bushpilot | 03-24-2010 10:03 AM
Re: help me choose ammo Anything that goes bang when you pull the trigger! BP

SWRichmond | 03-24-2010 10:14 AM
Re: help me choose ammo I put fresh primers in their factory packaging in ammo cans (WITHOUT dessicant) to maintain their factory moisture content. I once read that primers can actually be too dry. I'd never put powder in ammo cans or confine it for any reason other than in a cartridge. The burning rate of modern smokeless powders is dependent on pressure, and the factory containers are designed to easily burst to prevent a pressure spike and detonation. Store powder in its factory containers, and keep the containers in a wooden cabinet at a steady cool room temperature. Ammo goes in ammo cans.

teedub31 | 03-24-2010 12:51 PM
Re: help me choose ammo I concur with mick on this. From many of the wolf horror stories I have heard, the lacquer build up issues were more a result of long term build up from an uncleaned rifle seizing the case as opposed to a lacquerd case seizing in a properly maintained barrell. Not say that was you case, just say what I have read. Of course no one will ever admit to not cleaning and careing for their own gun.

CrufflerJJ | 03-24-2010 01:44 PM
Re: help me choose ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by teedub31 (Post 2241466) I concur with mick on this. From many of the wolf horror stories I have heard, the lacquer build up issues were more a result of long term build up from an uncleaned rifle seizing the case as opposed to a lacquerd case seizing in a properly maintained barrell. Not say that was you case, just say what I have read. Of course no one will ever admit to not cleaning and careing for their own gun.
Sorry, but it's not just a matter of poor weapon maintenance. I tried to run some Wolf ammo through my AR15 a few years ago, but the weapon puked repeatedly, despite a clean chamber & barrel (no prior Wolf ammo use/lacquer buildup). A friend, firing the same Wolf ammo through his Mini-14, had no problems at all.

Toxa | 03-24-2010 02:59 PM
Re: help me choose ammo Thanks for the info guys. I quess I'll have to see what kind of ammo she likes the best and go from there. SWRichmond I didnt know that about primers, thanks for the tip.

eat_beef | 03-24-2010 03:29 PM
Re: help me choose ammo I vote for whatever is reliable, accurate (enough, it doesn't have to be match ammo in most cases), cheap, and easily obtained. I'd rather have enough milsurp than enough minus 100 rounds of whatever whizbang stuff is getting all the good press this week. SW, ammo cans are made to seperate easily along the seams in case of explosion on the inside, IOW, they can't build up much pressure. Of course, putting powder in ANYTHING that can be improperly labelled (read: not the container in which it came) is a recipe for disaster.

tulsamal | 03-24-2010 08:05 PM
Re: help me choose ammo If we are talking about 5.56 for combat use, M193 is the way to go. I keep a few magazines loaded with SS109/M855 just in case I have to take on a vehicle or something but _real_ M193 has shown itself to be better in combat. M193 isn't just generic 55 grain FMJ .223. You want NATO spec military surplus M193. Gregg

State of Jefferson | 03-25-2010 10:26 PM
Re: help me choose ammo American guns - American ammo Russian guns - Russian ammo Wolf for American guns is begging for a problem. Buy Federal (American Eagle) XM193 for when you need it to count.

Ares | 03-25-2010 11:16 PM
Re: help me choose ammo Another vote for M855 and a vote for XM193 Federal.

Haltiat | 03-25-2010 11:55 PM
Re: help me choose ammo Guys... there was never a "lacquer buildup problem." The lacquer on milspec Russian ammo would burn before it would melt. Hold a blowtorch to a spent case and see for yourself. The AR-15 is just more fussy about it's ammo than other combat rifles. Blaming it on lacquer is like the guy at the range who's shooting all over the paper and says his sights are off.

State of Jefferson | 03-26-2010 12:00 AM
Re: help me choose ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2244439) Guys... there was never a "lacquer buildup problem." The lacquer on milspec Russian ammo would burn before it would melt. Hold a blowtorch to a spent case and see for yourself. The AR-15 is just more fussy about it's ammo than other combat rifles. Blaming it on lacquer is like the guy at the range who's shooting all over the paper and says his sights are off.
The lacquer / polymer on Russkii ammo does not "burn off." Russian guns are built to looser tolerances than ARs and similar "Western" firearms, and can handle the problem.

sneak | 03-26-2010 07:27 AM
Re: help me choose ammo Here is some AE XM193. Looks like it would run about .41 cents per round delivered. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...blast325201010

Big Country | 03-26-2010 04:10 PM
Re: help me choose ammo why the push for m193 or m855? We aren't bound to using FMJ only like the military. Why not some cheap hollow points? Are you saying M193 performs better then an equivalent quality hollow point? Or is it recommended because its cheaper since its surplus?

eat_beef | 03-26-2010 04:21 PM
Re: help me choose ammo "Cheap hollowpoints" probably wouldn't have any better terminal performance than M193. They definitely wouldn't punch steel like M855. What you're probably talking about is some kind of soft point, which would be quite a bit more expensive than milsurp or FMJ, and wouldn't (in most cases, unless you went with VERY expensive high end stuff) be sealed, nor would it keep like milsurp. Of course at today's prices, it's getting to be a tough call. Back when milsurp was 20 cents and decent soft points or polymer tips were 75, it was easy to go for 4:1. Today it's more like 2:1. Personally, I have mags loaded for each occasion, but the bulk of my stuff is FMJ. Then again, the bulk of mine is 7.62MM, so a FMJ still packs a lot more punch than anything in 5.56.:ok:

mtnman | 03-26-2010 04:26 PM
Re: help me choose ammo I shoot AK's, never clean 'em and they eat any ammo I cram in 'em. But for most people I'd say store what you rifle likes.

sneak | 03-26-2010 08:29 PM
Re: help me choose ammo Here's some Mexican ammo for $310 case. I've never tried any of it. http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...FMJ&groupid=21

CrufflerJJ | 03-26-2010 09:00 PM
Re: help me choose ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by sneak (Post 2245950) Here's some Mexican ammo for $310 case. I've never tried any of it. http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...FMJ&groupid=21
I've not tried this stuff, but Aguila ammo, in general, is pretty good.

CrufflerJJ | 03-26-2010 09:11 PM
Re: help me choose ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2244439) Guys... there was never a "lacquer buildup problem." The lacquer on milspec Russian ammo would burn before it would melt. Hold a blowtorch to a spent case and see for yourself. The AR-15 is just more fussy about it's ammo than other combat rifles. Blaming it on lacquer is like the guy at the range who's shooting all over the paper and says his sights are off.
I'll choose to disagree, just for because. The simple blowtorch/lacquer test doesn't duplicate what's causing the problem. Take a lacquered case, heat it to umpteen hundred degrees in an instant, SLAM it under tens of thousands of PSI against a smooth steel surface, hold it there for an instant, then remove it. Repeat until failure (lacquered surfaces sticking together under pressure, impeding extraction). A simple "melt" test at atmospheric conditions doesn't come close to duplicating the problem. This same type of lacquer DOES build up in the chambers of some Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R weapons. It is a well known issue with certain lacquered case mil-surplus ammo (Czech light ball surplus ammo comes to mind). In the Mosin Nagant, it causes extremely high bolt lift/extraction forces (sometimes requiring a 2x4 to "convince" the bolt to open). Scrub out the bore with brake cleaner & a tight fitting brush, and the problem is solved for a while. Use brass cased ammo (such as Yugo surplus), or copper washed steel cases, and the problem doesn't occur. Some weapons are more likely than others to show this problem - it is likely due to a number of factors including "tightness" of chambering, possibly headspace, and chamber roughness, combined with that great non-melting lacquer. I know that some AR style weapons eat Wolf without puking...for whatever reason.

Maddie | 03-27-2010 12:36 AM
Re: help me choose ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Country (Post 2245591) why the push for m193 or m855? We aren't bound to using FMJ only like the military. Why not some cheap hollow points? Are you saying M193 performs better then an equivalent quality hollow point? Or is it recommended because its cheaper since its surplus?
If it's an AR15 he's stocking up for, hollow points probably aren't what he wants to stock up on. Hollow points and soft points sometimes get bullet push-back or stalling on the feed ramps in ARs. I'm in the M193 and a little M855 camp myself.

Haltiat | 03-28-2010 12:40 AM
Re: help me choose ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by CrufflerJJ (Post 2245998) This same type of lacquer DOES build up in the chambers of some Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R weapons. It is a well known issue with certain lacquered case mil-surplus ammo (Czech light ball surplus ammo comes to mind). In the Mosin Nagant, it causes extremely high bolt lift/extraction forces (sometimes requiring a 2x4 to "convince" the bolt to open). Scrub out the bore with brake cleaner & a tight fitting brush, and the problem is solved for a while. Use brass cased ammo (such as Yugo surplus), or copper washed steel cases, and the problem doesn't occur. Some weapons are more likely than others to show this problem - it is likely due to a number of factors including "tightness" of chambering, possibly headspace, and chamber roughness, combined with that great non-melting lacquer.
There's something else going on with Mosins. For instance I have never seen or even heard of a Finn Mosin experiencing sticky bolt even though they shot and continue to shoot huge amounts of the same ammo. There are people who blame it on lacquered cases but that all seems to lead back to the AR guys complaining about their rifles. Personally I think part of it is the Russians are getting cosmoline in their chambers. I've swabbed plenty out of bores. Either way the problem isn't limited to lacquered ammo, brass cased and copper washed steel can do the same exact thing. It would seem that there is some variation in the way the cases are shaped and the chambers are cut. Factor in the roughest wartime builds and you can introduce all kinds of weirdness into the action. I own an AR-15. There are things they do well but there are things they don't do well. They are finicky about ammo and cleanliness. Things that wouldn't phase some other combat rifles are a real concern with AR's. There's no point in trying to make excuses for it, just accept it for what it is and learn how to keep yours running.

CrufflerJJ | 03-28-2010 09:24 PM
Re: help me choose ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2247467) There's no point in trying to make excuses for it, just accept it for what it is and learn how to keep yours running.
Strongly Agree!:ok:

tulsamal | 03-29-2010 12:46 PM
Re: help me choose ammo Quote:
why the push for m193 or m855? We aren't bound to using FMJ only like the military. Why not some cheap hollow points? Are you saying M193 performs better then an equivalent quality hollow point?
Yes, that's what I'm saying! True M193 will fragment if you are using it at a range where the terminal velocity is high enough. (That range depends on the length of your barrel.) A lot of commercial FMJ will just bore a straight hole right through like an ice pick. You don't want that. M193 used within its performance range is better for a chest shot that just about anything else you can use. The biggest problem with SP's and HP's (besides the already mentioned reliability issues) is that they expand and penetrate in a straight line. They don't fragment and cause more damage. The US Army was issuing M855 for all general use but they discovered that they actually got better combat stops from M193. (As long as there isn't a lot of hard cover to protect the target.) http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/ Gregg

eat_beef | 03-29-2010 01:06 PM
Re: help me choose ammo This is just wrong, a quality soft point and especially a quality polymer tip will outperform M193 on soft targets. M193 gives good, but not repeatable results. Sometimes it acts as well (maybe a little better) than a polymer or soft point, but the PT and SPs act the same every time, where the M193 might punch straight through from time to time, and exhibit a less than stellar wound channel a goodly percentage of the time. I'm basing this all off of first hand results in live flesh, not some gel testing mumbo jumbo. And all that said, I'm probably 50% M193, 40% M855, and 10% "fancy" ammo. Did I mention M80 is a lot better than any of the above?:biggrin:

tulsamal | 03-29-2010 07:59 PM
Re: help me choose ammo Quote:
I'm basing this all off of first hand results in live flesh, not some gel testing mumbo jumbo. And all that said, I'm probably 50% M193, 40% M855, and 10% "fancy" ammo.
The people that wrote the Ammo Oracle based their results on what happened when people got shot. Either in law enforcement or in the military. Not because of what they saw in gel. And not because of the anecdotal experiences of just one of them. I've only killed two deer with a 5.56mm. One with M193 to the head and the damage was astounding. And one time with a 77 grain Sierra OTM to the neck which worked as well. 15-20 years ago I used to fill my mags with SP's. After listening to a lot of people with actual combat experience, I decided the people at the Ammo Oracle were right and I changed to M193. We all have to make our own decisions. But don't forget one of the other advantages to M193. You can buy thousands of rounds of it and use it for both stockpiling and practice. When you need it, you know exactly where it will hit and you know for sure that it will work 100% in your weapon. I have some TAP specialty loads and other "fun stuff" but I've never fired nearly enough of it to trust to the level of my surplus M193. Most people can't afford to stockpile thousands of rounds of some commercial load. Gregg

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Haltiat | 03-29-2010 09:56 PM
Re: help me choose ammo Ballistic gel is really the only way you're going to get an apples to apples comparison of wounding effects. If you want to talk about wounding effects outside of gel I have only two words for you... bone hit.

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