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General of Darkness | 11-06-2009 04:47 PM
"The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Interesting, especially since Grossman was mentioned. You Tube
You Tube

.41Dave | 11-06-2009 05:25 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy I detest this notion of the "sheepdog" that is so popular amongst conservatives. Think for a moment about what a sheepdog really is. A sheepdog does not defend the sheep for the sake of goodness, or righteousness or justice. He does not serve the sheep, nor does he love the sheep. The sheepdog is a slave who loves and serves only his master. He defends the sheep for his master's sake, to prevent them from being exploited, shorn or eaten by anyone except his master. He herds the sheep in the direction in which his master bids him. He will gladly eat sheep his master feeds to him, and will do nothing to stop his master from slaughtering the sheep under the sheepdog's "protection". In many ways, the wolves may be preferable to the master and his sheepdog, as wolves will not slaughter and devour the entire flock, while the master certainly might, if he felt the profit in doing so was great enough.

Matt-themaddog-Dollar | 11-06-2009 05:33 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy [QUOTE=.41Dave;2011753] A sheepdog does not defend the sheep for the sake of goodness, or righteousness or justice. He does not serve the sheep, nor does he love the sheep. The sheepdog is a slave who loves and serves only his master. [QUOTE] Sheesh. So the sheepdog should not be a slave to the master, but should be a slave to the sheep? Who should the sheepdog be a slave to? Or maybe the sheepdog should not be a slave to anyone or anything? How do you know that the sheepdog doesn't defend the sheep BOTH for the sake of goodness AND for the sake of the master? Do you have a job? Are you a slave to your boss? Did your friend ever ask you to help him out with something? Were you being a slave to your friend? You should consider the concept that some humans may be SIMILAR to sheepdogs, but not identical, and therefore some humans can defend the sheep out of a sake of goodness, and for the sake of the sheep, and for the sake of the master (provided that the master is just) -- since humans have the capacity to reason about ethical matters.

hypervel | 11-06-2009 05:42 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy I kinda took it as Sheepdog = Wolf Interceptor and all around decent person of action. What's the fuss? Now, a fealty oath......THEN yer in trouble.

Goldfinger007 | 11-06-2009 05:43 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
I detest this notion of the "sheepdog" that is so popular amongst conservatives. Think for a moment about what a sheepdog really is. A sheepdog does not defend the sheep for the sake of goodness, or righteousness or justice. He does not serve the sheep, nor does he love the sheep. The sheepdog is a slave who loves and serves only his master. He defends the sheep for his master's sake, to prevent them from being exploited, shorn or eaten by anyone except his master. He herds the sheep in the direction in which his master bids him. He will gladly eat sheep his master feeds to him, and will do nothing to stop his master from slaughtering the sheep under the sheepdog's "protection".
Considering the recent Poll on the number of Lone Wolves here at GIM, I'm not surprised at this response. http://777denny.files.wordpress.com/...s_clothing.jpg What's for dinner? :111:

hypervel | 11-06-2009 05:48 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy I dunno.....that looks like it might be Shopped.............

shortstack | 11-06-2009 05:50 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by .41Dave (Post 2011753) I detest this notion of the "sheepdog" that is so popular amongst conservatives. Think for a moment about what a sheepdog really is. A sheepdog does not defend the sheep for the sake of goodness, or righteousness or justice. He does not serve the sheep, nor does he love the sheep. The sheepdog is a slave who loves and serves only his master. He defends the sheep for his master's sake, to prevent them from being exploited, shorn or eaten by anyone except his master. He herds the sheep in the direction in which his master bids him. He will gladly eat sheep his master feeds to him, and will do nothing to stop his master from slaughtering the sheep under the sheepdog's "protection". In many ways, the wolves may be preferable to the master and his sheepdog, as wolves will not slaughter and devour the entire flock, while the master certainly might, if he felt the profit in doing so was great enough.
Does that guy in the video look like he is "beholden" to anyone from TPTB? So maybe there is a better name, like hero. But to suggest that that the good and decent amoung us are unwittingly "working for the man" is, well, not correct IMO. Hopefully the sheepdogs are beholden to human decency, God, call it what you want. If you can think of a better name then sheepdog, then "rebrand"...

Haltiat | 11-06-2009 06:02 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy It doesn't really matter what you want to call people like that. As far as TPTB are concerned they're all domestic terrorists.

Bx3 | 11-06-2009 06:46 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by .41Dave (Post 2011753) I detest this notion of the "sheepdog" that is so popular amongst conservatives. Think for a moment about what a sheepdog really is. A sheepdog does not defend the sheep for the sake of goodness, or righteousness or justice. He does not serve the sheep, nor does he love the sheep. The sheepdog is a slave who loves and serves only his master. He defends the sheep for his master's sake, to prevent them from being exploited, shorn or eaten by anyone except his master. He herds the sheep in the direction in which his master bids him. He will gladly eat sheep his master feeds to him, and will do nothing to stop his master from slaughtering the sheep under the sheepdog's "protection". In many ways, the wolves may be preferable to the master and his sheepdog, as wolves will not slaughter and devour the entire flock, while the master certainly might, if he felt the profit in doing so was great enough.
While I see your point and actually agree with a parallel/irony in reference to the shepherd/flock relationship in a certain religion, I think you are either taking the literal relationship a bit too seriously or you are looking at this from the wrong angle. Bx3

State of Jefferson | 11-06-2009 06:49 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy A "sheepdog" keeps the sheep in line, ostensibly for the "protection" of the sheep. But really, as others have noted already, for the protection of the owner's financial interest. A sheepdog will bite a sheep to keep him in line. A "Good Samaritan," on the other hand, is someone who has no natural interest in the well-being of another person. Yet, the Good Samaritan will devote economic resources, prestige or privilege, and sometimes even his physical well-being or outright life, to protect another person. I do not wish to be a sheepdog any more than I wish to be a sheep. I consider it an honor and privilege, however, to be a Good Samaritan.

Absintheur | 11-06-2009 07:50 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy I understand what he is saying but I dislike the analogy of the "sheepdog...mainly for reasons already stated. Would I step in and protect someone who was bring attack? Maybe and only if certain criteria where met. First and foremost I would not leave a loved one unprotected to save a stranger, second I would not blindly charge in and lay down my life for a stranger. Only exception to these rules would involve a child. In the US almost any honest adult citizen can buy a firearm to protect themselves...if they chose not to then I assume they are willing to be a victim and don't want someone to save them.

Bx3 | 11-06-2009 08:13 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy To add to the excellent above post by Absintheur, our current laws do not favor the good samaritan anymore. Sadly, anyone (civilian) willing to step up to protect others especially with the use of a firearm is opening themselves up to potential criminal/civil charges. Choose your battles wisely. Bx3

Unclad Lad | 11-06-2009 08:37 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Remember, these are metaphorical canids. A perfect fit is not possible. But keep in mind what the shepherd does. He doesn't just shear their wool or eat their meat and milk--he feeds, shelters, and nurses them back to health, when necessary. The shepherd takes a calculated risk. The sheepdog is a tool the shepherd uses. So "sheepdog" may not be the most accurate term, but the imagery is too good to forsake. And looked at a certain way, the "sheep" analogy is still very accurate. The wolves just take. A better term for many, though, would be "coyote", since too many two-legged predators are incapable of teaming with others of their kind (fortunately). I like "jackals" too.

mtnman | 11-06-2009 08:56 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy [quote=Matt-themaddog-Dollar;2011760][QUOTE=.41Dave;2011753] A sheepdog does not defend the sheep for the sake of goodness, or righteousness or justice. He does not serve the sheep, nor does he love the sheep. The sheepdog is a slave who loves and serves only his master. Quote:
Sheesh. So the sheepdog should not be a slave to the master, but should be a slave to the sheep? Who should the sheepdog be a slave to? Or maybe the sheepdog should not be a slave to anyone or anything? How do you know that the sheepdog doesn't defend the sheep BOTH for the sake of goodness AND for the sake of the master? Do you have a job? Are you a slave to your boss? Did your friend ever ask you to help him out with something? Were you being a slave to your friend? You should consider the concept that some humans may be SIMILAR to sheepdogs, but not identical, and therefore some humans can defend the sheep out of a sake of goodness, and for the sake of the sheep, and for the sake of the master (provided that the master is just) -- since humans have the capacity to reason about ethical matters.
The Sheepdog that is NOT a slave is a Wolf.

S_Goldberg | 11-06-2009 09:17 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by State of Jefferson (Post 2011849) A "sheepdog" keeps the sheep in line, ostensibly for the "protection" of the sheep. But really, as others have noted already, for the protection of the owner's financial interest. A sheepdog will bite a sheep to keep him in line. A "Good Samaritan," on the other hand, is someone who has no natural interest in the well-being of another person. Yet, the Good Samaritan will devote economic resources, prestige or privilege, and sometimes even his physical well-being or outright life, to protect another person. I do not wish to be a sheepdog any more than I wish to be a sheep. I consider it an honor and privilege, however, to be a Good Samaritan.
The analogy is to a sheep dog which lives with the sheep to protect them. Not a herding dog. A sheep dog is like a llama. A Llama will bond with the herd, but unlike the sheep it will step up and fight to protect the herd when predators come. I just think people feel Llama doesn't sound bad ass. If you are unfamiliar with the use of Llamas as guard animals here is a link for you. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...shepherds.html

Bx3 | 11-06-2009 09:55 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by S_Goldberg (Post 2012089) The analogy is to a sheep dog which lives with the sheep to protect them. Not a herding dog. A sheep dog is like a llama. A Llama will bond with the herd, but unlike the sheep it will step up and fight to protect the herd when predators come. I just think people feel Llama doesn't sound bad ass. If you are unfamiliar with the use of Llamas as guard animals here is a link for you. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...shepherds.html
I have a friend who owns several llamas for pack work when he hunts Elk. He said that they are hands down better than a horse or donkey. I guess in the end, the llama is no better than the sheep dog though, since they are both (slaves) helping the "man" exploit a lesser species.:sarcasm:Bx3 :10_1_19::confused_m::confused_ma:bancha:puke:

.41Dave | 11-07-2009 10:32 AM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by shortstack (Post 2011785) Does that guy in the video look like he is "beholden" to anyone from TPTB? So maybe there is a better name, like hero. But to suggest that that the good and decent amoung us are unwittingly "working for the man" is, well, not correct IMO. Hopefully the sheepdogs are beholden to human decency, God, call it what you want. If you can think of a better name then sheepdog, then "rebrand"...
I am not suggesting that the good and decent among us are "working for the man", unwittingly or otherwise. I am suggesting that using the analogy of a sheepdog for the good and decent among us is a pretty lousy one, and gave the reasons why in my initial post. I will agree that it's a pretty accurate analogy for cops, however.

Absintheur | 11-07-2009 12:11 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclad Lad (Post 2012014) And looked at a certain way, the "sheep" analogy is still very accurate. The wolves just take.
Yes but unlike the 4 legged sheep the two legged variety are sheep by choice, they choose to be victims voluntarily.

voodoo1951 | 11-07-2009 04:42 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy :signs14: I'd rather consider myself as a Tree that just blends in w/ the scenery and sits back and watches all the Sheep, Dogs, Wolves and Shepards battle it out from the sidelines...seems pretty safe from that perspective...that said, I'll make like a Tree and Leaf it up to you guys... :23_31_2: :23_31_2: :23_31_2:

Doge | 11-07-2009 05:58 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Nutnfancy has some good reviews but his politics send up red flags for me. First, he's always promoting the NRA (we all know what they are about). Second, he's in the military and in law enforcement (both of which are NOT our friends).

Haltiat | 11-07-2009 07:26 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Doge (Post 2013190) Second, he's in the military and in law enforcement (both of which are NOT our friends).
But they think they are. And that's what makes them dangerous.

Bx3 | 11-07-2009 07:45 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Doge (Post 2013190) he's in the military and in law enforcement (both of which are NOT our friends).
Generalized statements like these are equally invalid. Now if you were to state something factual like some, many or a disappointingly high number........you might have some credibility. Kind of like making a generalized statement that all people from the Gulf Coast of Florida are trailer trash. Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat. But they think they are. And that's what makes them dangerous.
and for this illogical gem.....well we will just leave it at that. Bx3

Doge | 11-07-2009 07:58 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy The military and "law" enforcement allow the federal dictatorship to stay in power and grow. Is that not factual enough for you?

Bx3 | 11-07-2009 08:04 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Doge (Post 2013340) The military and "law" enforcement allow the federal dictatorship to stay in power and grow. Is that not factual enough for you?
Your example of the facts is a bit skewed. The citizens of this country are who "allow the federal dictatorship to stay in power" as you say. Almost every example in humanity of a oppressive govt being replaced was done so by it's citizens. Why do you think we are any different? Bx3

messianicdruid | 11-07-2009 10:07 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy http://www.runtogold.com/images/man-...g-together.jpg

Absintheur | 11-07-2009 11:42 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Doge (Post 2013190) Nutnfancy has some good reviews but his politics send up red flags for me. First, he's always promoting the NRA (we all know what they are about).
If it weren't for the NRA I doubt this forum would even exist except to talk about guns in video games. Quote:
Originally Posted by Doge (Post 2013190) Second, he's in the military and in law enforcement (both of which are NOT our friends).
Not too sure what you expect Law Enforcement to do about who is President and I know I don't want a power hungry General staging a military coup...I would rather have an incompetent that can be voted out than a military dictator who could only be removed with bloodshed. I can't recall a single military initiated coup that ever did return power to the people, they all turn into dictatorships. (The American Revolution was initiated by Congress not the military) Also as a retired Army vet I find your attitude slightly insulting...if it wasn't for the military you would be saying things like "yes comrade". What branch of the military did you serve in?

Doge | 11-08-2009 01:14 AM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Absintheur (Post 2013627) If it weren't for the NRA I doubt this forum would even exist except to talk about guns in video games.
The NRA is controlled opposition. Quote:
Not too sure what you expect Law Enforcement to do about who is President and I know I don't want a power hungry General staging a military coup...I would rather have an incompetent that can be voted out than a military dictator who could only be removed with bloodshed. I can't recall a single military initiated coup that ever did return power to the people, they all turn into dictatorships.
I DO NOT want a military coup nor is that what I'm talking about. My point is for the last few decades our military has been an volunteer force, yet those who join are not smart enough to see that our military has been used as pawns in foreign wars for 59 straight years. These wars have been unconstitutional and have served no other purpose than to create a new world order. Without these volunteers in the military and in law enforcement, enforcing unconstitutional laws and wars, the federal dictatorship and the NWO would break down. You seem to think I want them to act but that's actually the complete opposite of what I want them to do. Quote:
Also as a retired Army vet I find your attitude slightly insulting...if it wasn't for the military you would be saying things like "yes comrade".
Oh are you one of those types? Please explain why I would be saying "Yes comrade" so I can dismantle your "point". Quote:
What branch of the military did you serve in?
None. I've always had enough sense to know that I do not want to be cannon fodder for our government.

State of Jefferson | 11-08-2009 01:16 AM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Absintheur (Post 2013627) If it weren't for the NRA I doubt this forum would even exist except to talk about guns in video games.
If it weren't for the NRA, the boiling frog might not have been fooled into reaching 212 degrees. The NRA didn't stop the NFA or the GCA, and a whole lot of other lesser offenses against the Second Amendment. In fact, NRA supported much of that repugnant to the Second Amendment. Quote:
Originally Posted by Absintheur (Post 2013627) Not too sure what you expect Law Enforcement to do about who is President and I know I don't want a power hungry General staging a military coup...I would rather have an incompetent that can be voted out than a military dictator who could only be removed with bloodshed. I can't recall a single military initiated coup that ever did return power to the people, they all turn into dictatorships.
The Military-Industrial Complex rules this country. The Military-Industrial Complex remains in power because soldiers and cops continue to obey orders. Quote:
Originally Posted by Absintheur (Post 2013627) Also as a retired Army vet I find your attitude slightly insulting...if it wasn't for the military you would be saying things like "yes comrade".
We aren't? http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_2k22z8vH12...ama+Soviet.jpg http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/11/...are/index.html

keehah | 11-08-2009 03:28 AM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by .41Dave (Post 2011753) A sheepdog does not defend the sheep for the sake of goodness, or righteousness or justice. He does not serve the sheep, nor does he love the sheep.
Mother geese are what you are wanting. Or goats. http://assets.aarp.org/www.aarp.org_...rt_andrews.jpg Quote:
Fox games are a category of board games where one player is the fox and tries to eat the geese/sheep, and the other player directs the geese/sheep and attempts to trap the fox, or reach a destination on the board.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_games

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot | 11-08-2009 04:08 AM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by .41Dave (Post 2011753) In many ways, the wolves may be preferable to the master and his sheepdog, as wolves will not slaughter and devour the entire flock, while the master certainly might, if he felt the profit in doing so was great enough.
You don't know much about wolves then I take it. http://www.missoulian.com/news/local...cc4c03286.html

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Absintheur | 11-08-2009 07:25 AM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Doge (Post 2013743) None. I've always had enough sense to know that I do not want to be cannon fodder for our government.
nuff said...lol...you are the type who want the freedoms as long as you don't have to take any risks for them... State of Jefferson...the NRA has been the leading force in keeping the 2nd Amendment in force, without the NRA things would be much worse than they are. The NRA cannot make law as some seem to think it can but it has done more to fight for our rights than all other organizations combined. Yes they have compromised at times but if you actually read the testomonies you will see it was unavoidable compromises. Do you think Heller would have passed without the NRA? Or even been heard?

Doge | 11-08-2009 07:54 AM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Absintheur (Post 2013938) nuff said...lol...you are the type who want the freedoms as long as you don't have to take any risks for them...
Exactly like I thought, you ducked my question. So if you do not serve in the military you are worthless? Typical from those who think you like you do. How is serving the federal dictatorship's agenda protecting anyone's freedom? If you've read any of my posts you'd know I am against the U.S. having a standing army, besides a navy. Anyway, tell me one country that has tried to invade the U.S. in modern times. I'd like to hear this. The barbarians are already inside the gates. America will not fall to an outside force but from within.

GRP | 11-08-2009 09:02 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldfinger007 (Post 2011770) Considering the recent Poll on the number of Lone Wolves here at GIM, I'm not surprised at this response. http://777denny.files.wordpress.com/...s_clothing.jpg What's for dinner? :111:
:111::111::111::111::111::111::111::111::111:

Haltiat | 11-09-2009 12:31 AM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Doge (Post 2013958) How is serving the federal dictatorship's agenda protecting anyone's freedom?
It doesn't and never has. In fact the present tyranny would be impossible without cops and soldiers to do the heavy lifting. Nancy Pelosi wouldn't be sending anyone to jail for failure to purchase her health care package if she had to do it herself. As I said earlier, the police and military are convinced they are the good guys and that is what makes them dangerous. Since they have confidence in the rightness of their cause anyone counter to that cause must be the bad guy. Since the cause is anti-American that makes freedom loving Americans the enemy in their view. That's how we end up with "anti-government" and nowadays "domestic terrorist." That all goes back to the central thesis. Sheepdogs control the flock for the shepherd. The shepherd shears the sheep and eats the mutton. The sheepdog chews the bones. It is a bad paradigm dreamed up for a broken system.

Bx3 | 11-09-2009 01:32 AM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2015099) It doesn't and never has. In fact the present tyranny would be impossible without cops and soldiers to do the heavy lifting. Nancy Pelosi wouldn't be sending anyone to jail for failure to purchase her health care package if she had to do it herself. As I said earlier, the police and military are convinced they are the good guys and that is what makes them dangerous. Since they have confidence in the rightness of their cause anyone counter to that cause must be the bad guy. Since the cause is anti-American that makes freedom loving Americans the enemy in their view. That's how we end up with "anti-government" and nowadays "domestic terrorist." That all goes back to the central thesis. Sheepdogs control the flock for the shepherd. The shepherd shears the sheep and eats the mutton. The sheepdog chews the bones. It is a bad paradigm dreamed up for a broken system.
What a pathetic analogy. Do you have any personal examples of how the military or LE has forced you to do anything against your will or is this just more speculation on your part? In case you have not heard, veterans are on the domestic threat list also although I am sure that you would believe that that is just another red herring. Bx3

Haltiat | 11-09-2009 02:28 AM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx3 (Post 2015167) What a pathetic analogy.
I wasn't the one who brought up sheepdogs. Quote:
Do you have any personal examples of how the military or LE has forced you to do anything against your will or is this just more speculation on your part?
Are you serious? Did you think about that before you typed it? Yes. Everybody does. Half of our earnings are stolen from us every year. For six months we work as slaves. Go ask Ed and Elaine what happens if you don't pay the protection money. You want more? There's plenty more, too much to list it all. Tens of thousands of pages of "law" that is repugnant to the Constitution and plain old human decency. All of it is enforced by the police, most of it will get you imprisoned and a lot of it can get you killed. The Posse Comitatus Act and other directives usually keep the military out of directly interfering with the American citizenry. That all went out the window with the National Defense Authorization Act For Fiscal Year 2008. Still, there have been incidents. Everything from Sherman's March To The Sea to NOLA. There is also the tyranny in foreign lands to be considered. Quote:
In case you have not heard, veterans are on the domestic threat list also although I am sure that you would believe that that is just another red herring. Bx3
That is the incredible irony. Some people who were or are in know what the score is. Most don't and they fully support the terror industry, which targets them too. TPTB fear all force they don't control which includes veterans.

Bx3 | 11-09-2009 12:38 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2015188) I wasn't the one who brought up sheepdogs.
I was not referring to the op. I was referring to the analogy of your entire post. Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2015188) Are you serious? Did you think about that before you typed it? Yes. Everybody does. Half of our earnings are stolen from us every year. For six months we work as slaves. Go ask Ed and Elaine what happens if you don't pay the protection money. You want more? There's plenty more, too much to list it all. Tens of thousands of pages of "law" that is repugnant to the Constitution and plain old human decency. All of it is enforced by the police, most of it will get you imprisoned and a lot of it can get you killed. The Posse Comitatus Act and other directives usually keep the military out of directly interfering with the American citizenry. That all went out the window with the National Defense Authorization Act For Fiscal Year 2008. Still, there have been incidents. Everything from Sherman's March To The Sea to NOLA. There is also the tyranny in foreign lands to be considered.
Blah blah blah. Paying taxes doesn't have anything to do with the original intent of this post. The last time I checked the military doesn't have any relationship enforcing the IRS tax code. Where are your personal experiences? And no, I don't need a diatribe of history, MSM reports or internet rumors, I mean your personal experiences of being oppressed by the military or LE! Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2015188) That is the incredible irony. Some people who were or are in know what the score is. Most don't and they fully support the terror industry, which targets them too. TPTB fear all force they don't control which includes veterans.
But..... but......you said.... Quote:
soldiers to do the heavy lifting....military are convinced they are the good guys and that is what makes them dangerous....freedom loving Americans the enemy in their view....The sheepdog chews the bones
So WTF is it? Are we the good guys or the bad guys or something in between? How many Vets or LE have you talked to to come to your conclusion? What is your solution to all of the problems you seem to have such a handle on? You know what the use of a complaint without a solution is right? And you call yourself a god.:sarc: To all of the GIMers who like to complain and blame others on the internet while doing nothing about it, here is my challenge to you once again. What are you doing about all of these ills that you like to bitch about? No, the anonymous internet postings don't count for shyt! Do you think the Founding Fathers sat around in the pubs feeling sorry for themselves and playing the blame game? They were men of action and ideas, not wankers looking for cheerleaders to sooth their souls. The only thing that keeps TPTB in power is a an ignorant populace. What are you doing to change that besides preaching to the choir? Bx3

Haltiat | 11-09-2009 02:33 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx3 (Post 2015748) I was not referring to the op. I was referring to the analogy of your entire post.
Then it looks like you don't know what an analogy is. Quote:
Paying taxes doesn't have anything to do with the original intent of this post.
You asked Quote:
Do you have any personal examples of how the military or LE has forced you to do anything against your will or is this just more speculation on your part?
Few if any people willing give up half of their earnings to support things they mostly disagree with. Excessive taxation is one of the classic forms of tyranny. It is the same thing as stealing years off someone's life. Quote:
The last time I checked the military doesn't have any relationship enforcing the IRS tax code.
You asked Quote:
Do you have any personal examples of how the military or LE has forced you to do anything against your will or is this just more speculation on your part?
That was one example, personal and universal, in regards to LE. Quote:
Where are your personal experiences?
Too many to list them all. Everything that isn't banned is mandatory. Here's a few other highlights that apply personally as well as to most people. -speed traps -disarmament -many forms of licensing -permitting for normal activity on private property -unwanted, unneeded warrantless surveillance Quote:
So WTF is it? Are we the good guys or the bad guys or something in between?
Politicians think of you as a useful idiot. Henry Kissinger, U.S. diplomat and National Security Advisor, said military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy. He said this in front of General Alexander Haig. The military in particular suffers at the hands of its master. Quote:
How many Vets or LE have you talked to to come to your conclusion?
LOL. More than you think. Quote:
What is your solution to all of the problems you seem to have such a handle on?
Return to constitutional law. Quote:
What are you doing about all of these ills that you like to bitch about?
I use a portion of the half of my earnings I have left after being sheared to make campaign contributions to worthy individuals running for office. I also vote for them and campaign for them. I do not actively participate in supporting tyranny and I denounce the terror industry. Quote:
No, the anonymous internet postings don't count for shyt!
I disagree. I have learned much on many topics from people who posted on the internet using pseudonyms. More than that most people are herd animals. The more they hear something repeated the more likely they are to adopt it as their own. Since we can't be on prime time network television it makes sense to the use the internet in an effort to counter the propaganda that is beamed into everyone's living room. Quote:
Do you think the Founding Fathers sat around in the pubs feeling sorry for themselves and playing the blame game?
Actually they talked and wrote about everything that was going wrong for a very long time before the Revolution. That is one of the reasons why the rattlesnake was an important symbol of America. Quote:
The only thing that keeps TPTB in power is a an ignorant populace.
No. The only thing that keeps them in power is those who are willing to do violence against their brothers and sisters to support tyranny. Of course they don't think of it that way but nevertheless that is exactly what it is. Quote:
What are you doing to change that besides preaching to the choir? Bx3
What does LE or the military do to make America free or support and defend the Constitution?

Bx3 | 11-09-2009 04:44 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2015966) Then it looks like you don't know what an analogy is.
You better re-check your own definition. Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2015966) Few if any people willing give up half of their earnings to support things they mostly disagree with. Excessive taxation is one of the classic forms of tyranny. It is the same thing as stealing years off someone's life.
Sounds like a Congressional/IRS issue. Go bark up a different tree. Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2015966) That was one example, personal and universal, in regards to LE.
= I have no personal experience of being oppressed by Military/LE so I will just keep talking out of my arse. Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2015966) Too many to list them all. Everything that isn't banned is mandatory. Here's a few other highlights that apply personally as well as to most people. -speed traps -disarmament -many forms of licensing -permitting for normal activity on private property -unwanted, unneeded warrantless surveillance
And the military plays what role here? Oh, thats right....none. Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2015966) Politicians think of you as a useful idiot. Henry Kissinger, U.S. diplomat and National Security Advisor, said military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy. He said this in front of General Alexander Haig. The military in particular suffers at the hands of its master.
They think of all of us as idiots, get in line. Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2015966) LOL. More than you think.
Me thinks none, so your reply says nothing. Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2015966) Return to constitutional law.
Why I support RP. Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2015966) I use a portion of the half of my earnings I have left after being sheared to make campaign contributions to worthy individuals running for office. I also vote for them and campaign for them. I do not actively participate in supporting tyranny and I denounce the terror industry.
That's good. How do you accomplish the later, exactly? Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2015966) I disagree. I have learned much on many topics from people who posted on the internet using pseudonyms. More than that most people are herd animals. The more they hear something repeated the more likely they are to adopt it as their own. Since we can't be on prime time network television it makes sense to the use the internet in an effort to counter the propaganda that is beamed into everyone's living room.
See my original response to Doge. I can assure you that your blanket and unqualified remarks are only preaching to the choir instead of changing any minds. In fact, your often generalized insults would not sway anyone who is sitting on the fence. Try using factual information instead. Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2015966) Actually they talked and wrote about everything that was going wrong for a very long time before the Revolution. That is one of the reasons why the rattlesnake was an important symbol of America.
They searched for and found solutions. Not quite comparable to what you do. Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2015966) No. The only thing that keeps them in power is those who are willing to do violence against their brothers and sisters to support tyranny. Of course they don't think of it that way but nevertheless that is exactly what it is.
BS. That is your skewed opinion and it is not proven by history or fact. Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2015966) What does LE or the military do to make America free or support and defend the Constitution?
The majority do a hell of a lot more than you do, I can assure you of that. Bx3

Haltiat | 11-09-2009 07:41 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx3 (Post 2016218) You better re-check your own definition.
Here you go. Quote:
a⋅nal⋅o⋅gy �noun, plural -gies. 1. a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump. 2. similarity or comparability: I see no analogy between your problem and mine. 3. Biology. an analogous relationship. 4. Linguistics. a. the process by which words or phrases are created or re-formed according to existing patterns in the language, as when shoon was re-formed as shoes, when -ize is added to nouns like winter to form verbs, or when a child says foots for feet. b. a form resulting from such a process. 5. Logic. a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects. Origin: 1530�40; < L analogia
... and I still wasn't the one who initially drew the analogy between certain kinds of people and sheepdogs. Quote:
Sounds like a Congressional/IRS issue. Go bark up a different tree.
Again, who does the enforcing? Some clerk? It would be meaningless if there weren't someone willing to pull the trigger on his brothers and sisters to back up the demands of some accountant. Quote:
They think of all of us as idiots, get in line.
I agree. That's why we shouldn't be on different sides. Quote:
Why I support RP.
It looks like we are on the same side. Quote:
That's good. How do you accomplish the later, exactly?
Here you go. Quote:
de⋅nounce �verb (used with object), -nounced, -nounc⋅ing. 1. to condemn or censure openly or publicly: to denounce a politician as morally corrupt. 2. to make a formal accusation against, as to the police or in a court. 3. to give formal notice of the termination or denial of (a treaty, pact, agreement, or the like). 4. Archaic. to announce or proclaim, esp. as something evil or calamitous.
Quote:
BS. That is your skewed opinion and it is not proven by history or fact.
You are convinced of the rightness of your cause. Thank you for proving my point for me. Quote:
The majority do a hell of a lot more than you do, I can assure you of that. Bx3
Really? Give me a personal example.

Bx3 | 11-09-2009 11:04 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2016499) ... and I still wasn't the one who initially drew the analogy between certain kinds of people and sheepdogs.
....wait for it.... Quote:
Haltiat Sheepdogs control the flock for the shepherd. The shepherd shears the sheep and eats the mutton. The sheepdog chews the bones.
Are these not your words? Is this not your analogy? I didn't see this analogy written anywhere but in your post. While you may not be the originator, (LTC Dave Grossman coined it in his excellent books "On Killing" and "On Combat") you certainly took the liberty to reinterpret it, in a sense making it very much your own. Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2016499) Again, who does the enforcing? Some clerk? It would be meaningless if there weren't someone willing to pull the trigger on his brothers and sisters to back up the demands of some accountant.
The demands do not come from an accountant. They come from elected officials, officials that the citizens of this country do not have the common sense to fire/replace. As for the enforcement aspect, while I am no fan of the current tax system, are you saying that there should be no taxes? Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2016499) I agree. That's why we shouldn't be on different sides. It looks like we are on the same side.
We probably do agree on a wide variety of topics. Where we differ is on your broad brush approach. If you took the time to read my response to Doge, you would see that I do not refute your accusations, (they are factual), only your broad application of the parties involved. Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2016499) Here you go.
Let me know how that works out for you.:sarc: Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2016499) You are convinced of the rightness of your cause. Thank you for proving my point for me.
Do you even know what you are talking about? Try to stay with me here. You blame the military/LE for "allowing" a corrupt govt to exist. I hold the citizens responsible. My reply which is pretty clear is that in most cases, history shows that it is the citizen who allows the corruption in the first place and it is the citizen who must (and historically does) correct the corruption. To insinuate that the populace does not bear the responsibility only shows your own denial of responsibilities. See below.... Quote:
TJ - Declaration of Independence - Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government......... But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
The intent of the FF's seems pretty clear to me......you were saying? Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2016499) Really? Give me a personal example.
Well, gosh in the sixteen years of military service and three years of fire service before that.....where to begin? Since you just asked for a singular example, I'll share my time on the Southern Border with you. I spent the better part of 2007 and 2008 (not from... but two full years) deployed on our Southern Border working with CBP and even the Minute Men (now there are citizens who actually walk the walk...unlike most). Unless someone has been to the border, you can not imagine just how bad it is and what is at stake. I know that this may not be as important to our country as wanking on the error-net and supporting politicians every 2-4 years but it's what I do and I don't feel the need to further justify my existence to anyone who has not walked in my shoes. To listen to your rants, you would think that there is no justifiable need for either the military or LE. I wish I still lived in your protected bubble but unfortunately I have seen the real world and I can no longer afford to deny reality. I have never claimed that either institution is saintly or without error. In the end, every group is nothing more than a cross section of the society that makes them up. Some good....some bad. To lump them all together however is no more accurate than lumping any group together without acknowledging the individual dynamic. Good day. Bx3

Haltiat | 11-09-2009 11:52 PM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx3 (Post 2016835) ....wait for it.... Are these not your words? Is this not your analogy? I didn't see this analogy written anywhere but in your post. While you may not be the originator, (LTC Dave Grossman coined it in his excellent books "On Killing" and "On Combat") you certainly took the liberty to reinterpret it, in a sense making it very much your own.
Yup, that's my interpretation. Not my analogy. Like many others I don't like the analogy because of the implications in the relationship between the shepherd, sheepdog and sheep. I'm a Christian and all the talk of sheep in the Bible feels weird to me too. Again, not my analogy just my reaction to it. Quote:
The demands do not come from an accountant. They come from elected officials, officials that the citizens of this country do not have the common sense to fire/replace. As for the enforcement aspect, while I am no fan of the current tax system, are you saying that there should be no taxes?
So you think voting works? I am a voter and I do contribute to candidates I think are worthy but I noticed a long time ago that no matter what the people want the government does what it wants. Take a look at the bailouts for instance, the people were loud and clear about not wanting that crap. As far as tax reform is concerned that is a big topic in and of itself. Suffice it to say I am willing to contribute to commons in more or less the same ways Ron Paul has suggested to replace the income tax. It's not that I'm not willing to chip in but 50% is way too much and it is over the top to demand it at gun point. Quote:
We probably do agree on a wide variety of topics. Where we differ is on your broad brush approach. If you took the time to read my response to Doge, you would see that I do not refute your accusations, (they are factual), only your broad application of the parties involved.
Where we differ is I'm an irascible old fart with more history than I'm willing to share on a public forum and I have just plain run out of patience with the whole damn mess. That makes me not very easy to get along with. Quote:
Let me know how that works out for you.
So far it is working about as good as voting. Quote:
Do you even know what you are talking about? Try to stay with me here. You blame the military/LE for "allowing" a corrupt govt to exist. I hold the citizens responsible. My reply which is pretty clear is that in most cases, history shows that it is the citizen who allows the corruption in the first place and it is the citizen who must (and historically does) correct the corruption. To insinuate that the populace does not bear the responsibility only shows your own denial of responsibilities. See below....
Oh I hope I didn't give you the wrong impression about that. Everybody is responsible for their part. At the end of the day there is no mil/le/civ, there are only Americans and we all have a hand in making the country what it is. What I am saying is that the people who do the enforcement have a unique opportunity to say "No!" to an outlaw regime. Most importantly if the enforcers said no they would be heard and they would have the support of the people. Even if the tinpot dictators wanted to force the issue they wouldn't be able to go up against half their enforcers plus millions more from the general population. They would have to listen. But that can only happen if the enforcers are willing to stand up and say no, we aren't doing that anti-American crap anymore. The rest of us can vote till we're blue in the face and it won't change a thing but take away the threat of force and the petty little tyrants are powerless. Nobody has to get hurt but a lot of people have to get wise. Quote:
Well, gosh in the sixteen years of military service and three years of fire service before that.....where to begin? Since you just asked for a singular example, I'll share my time on the Southern Border with you. I spent the better part of 2007 and 2008 (not from... but two full years) deployed on our Southern Border working with CBP and even the Minute Men (now there are citizens who actually walk the walk...unlike most). Unless someone has been to the border, you can not imagine just how bad it is and what is at stake. I know that this may not be as important to our country as wanking on the error-net and supporting politicians every 2-4 years but it's what I do and I don't feel the need to further justify my existence to anyone who has not walked in my shoes.
I have been to the border and beyond. I know what it's like. I'm not questioning your intentions or your manhood but let's be realistic. Was it any more effective in the grand scheme of things than voting or posting on the error-net as you called it? That's the problem. Things just aren't getting done. It's not that I don't want to, it's not that you don't want to, it's not that we don't both try... but this system is broken. Quote:
To listen to your rants, you would think that there is no justifiable need for either the military or LE.
Just to be clear I believe in the classic pre-Civil War model. That is a small professional core and a very large, well trained and well equipped militia to rally around it when needed. Quote:
I wish I still lived in your protected bubble but unfortunately I have seen the real world and I can no longer afford to deny reality.
We need good guys who are able to respond with force to the bad guys. The trouble is our politicians are so corrupt that their policies have begun to give bad guy jobs to people who should be and want to be good guys. I also disagree with that force being monopolized by the government. That is a recipe for disaster. A soldier who has seen the world should recognize that. It's a messed up situation. I never have lived in that protected bubble you mentioned but I won't even get upset at you about it for bringing it up because I know exactly what you're talking about. It's like Lord Of The Rings. You have your orcs, your uruk-hai, evil wizards, riders of Rohan, soldiers of Gondor, rangers, elves, dwarves... all that crap... then you have the Hobbits. They live on the Shire and God help them if a cave troll ever shows up.

Bx3 | 11-10-2009 12:23 AM
Re: "The Sheepdog Concept" by Nutnfancy I feel that this is a much more valid and interesting post than some of your original statements on this topic. There is much to agree with. I know that it is hard to get into the depths of discussion at times as it takes careful thought and attention. It is easier for us all to just throw out vague statements that actually should require better definition. I am thankful for the dialogue. :coolbeer:Bx3

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