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- - How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=322811)

koyaanisqatsi | 11-17-2008 05:27 AM
How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? I was once violently mugged by four young men. I was unarmed, but I realize now that bad guys are typically not going to give you a chance to get your gun. They like to look friendly until ... and they like to feel powerful after that. So odds are a bad guy is going to get the drop on you about 50% of the time, maybe more. He may then take your gun if you are lucky, otherwise you're down, maybe dead. All the preps we make ... does anyone prepare to disarm an attacker with his gun pointed at you? I'm gonna prepare for that and I thought I'd share. I'm a fan of Sun Tzu, The Art of War "When you are strong, appear to be weak." And so I will seek to make my armed attacker feel powerful, myself appearing as no threat or gain ... UNTIL I move to take his gun away and perhaps shoot him with it ... or otherwise hurt him swiftly, like lightning almost, incapacitating him somehow anyway. I've had a gun pointed in my face by a jealous man over a mutual girlfriend 25 years ago. I remember then I was ready to take his gun away, plotting HOW I should do this, the .32acp pointed about 12" away from my head, by then he had me on my knees... me, I KNOW I WILL try because I've had to resist the urge before back then to take his gun. This action plan is NOT for a man who is prone to unduly hesitate, but what else will you have? ... but yourself? Anyway ... I hope you find these YouTube links to work, and be useful or to interest you. This week I'm gonna make a crude wooden gun and begin to practice all this with a friend until I can pretty well do it in my sleep. It's like another invisible weapon in my head. It's not that difficult, it's not Bruce Lee stuff, but are we ever to be confident? IMO, this practiced skill may save me quicker than all my bullets, PMs and food. It may not. But for sure -- it may save me or others. I will be training on this. How much time do you devote to aquiring shooting skills? Well ... do you think the bad guys gonna just let ya point a gun at him so easy-like? I'm just not such a risk-taker as some of you, myself. Good luck! Essentials of Krav Maga Self Defense Techniques : Front Gun Attack http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07jnqD8wvyE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07jnqD8wvyE
Essentials of Krav Maga Self Defense Techniques : Hostage Situation Techniques http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HaY2gV5seg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HaY2gV5seg
Gun Self-Defense: Disarming A Gun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdOqHO6SjTQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdOqHO6SjTQ
Krav Maga: Gun Defence 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx44EdgJHSY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx44EdgJHSY
1 arm Gun disarm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfCxMCeUOTE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfCxMCeUOTE
Defendo - Rifle and Shotgun Disarm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnet2s3Wpws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnet2s3Wpws
Krav Maga Gun to the head while kneeling defense http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C3XNDyVXRg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C3XNDyVXRg

hystckndle | 11-17-2008 06:46 AM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? .......... :15_1_70v: :biggrin: Haystackneedle

Fermentation | 11-17-2008 06:47 AM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Pure awesomeness dude! Good Post, or should I say great.

Dutch Dog | 11-17-2008 07:14 AM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Awesome videos! I love the first one where you get to break the index finger. That will learn ya!

Twisted Avatar | 11-17-2008 07:36 AM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Dog (Post 1419918) Awesome videos! I love the first one where you get to break the index finger. That will learn ya!
I was thinking the same thing!! He will only be able to rob with a butter knife next time!!! T

eyeofliberty | 11-17-2008 07:49 AM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Good stuff, thanks for the vids. I was once confronted on the street by a knife wielding transient looking fellow demanding my money. I stepped to the side, gained control of the knife hand with one hand, and delivered a palm blow to his nose with the other. I think I broke his nose, but I didn't stick around to find out. It helps that I've been in and out of various forms of martial arts since I was 5 years old. It's all about muscle memory, and the ability to ACT in stressful situations.

graspAU | 11-17-2008 08:22 AM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Pretty good stuff. Will take care of most idiots on the street. Only issue if you run into the smart one who uses common sense and stays out of reach with the weapon.

Twisted Avatar | 11-17-2008 09:07 AM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Quote:
Originally Posted by scottp999 (Post 1419973) Pretty good stuff. Will take care of most idiots on the street. Only issue if you run into the smart one who uses common sense and stays out of reach with the weapon.
The odds of running in to those type scumare slim I would think....... most are looking for a fix are hoping that just brandishing the gun will make you comply( which often dose work) T

CyberGold | 11-17-2008 02:41 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? is there a way to download the video from u-tube? That would make reviewing and analysis much easier at home.

mkinla | 11-17-2008 02:46 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberGold (Post 1420592) is there a way to download the video from u-tube? That would make reviewing and analysis much easier at home.
This is by far the best way. Just copy and paste the URL in the box at http://www.mediaconverter.org/index.php and follow the instructions. Enjoy...:wink:

Drumblebum | 11-17-2008 03:08 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberGold (Post 1420592) is there a way to download the video from u-tube? That would make reviewing and analysis much easier at home.
There is a button in the menu at the top of the forum (last on the right, bottom) that says "Download YouTube"... try that.

mkinla | 11-17-2008 03:11 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumblebum (Post 1420628) There is a button in the menu at the top of the forum (last on the right, bottom) that says "Download YouTube"... try that.
I don't trust youtube to use their DOWNLOAD feature.. F them...:wink:

skilsaw | 11-17-2008 03:15 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? ^ Do all these DL them as FLV files? If so, a more convenient way to do the same thing may be to install RealPlayer on your pooter. Then, when most any video or audio plays on a page, a tiny bar pops up that allows you to DL it (if you want).

Squirrel Bait | 11-17-2008 03:18 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Excellent vids! Practice, practice, practice. s

graspAU | 11-17-2008 03:47 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1420028) The odds of running in to those type scumare slim I would think....... most are looking for a fix are hoping that just brandishing the gun will make you comply( which often dose work) T
Ever watch Bas Rutten's video? A former terror of a bouncer that was one of the forerunners in the MMA world. Fought in Pancrace, UFC. "Bas Rutten's lethal street fighting defense system" You Tube
You Tube

koyaanisqatsi | 11-17-2008 04:22 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Thanks so much for the warm welcome back, guys. (hiya- Hystckl) :15_1_70v: How gratifying to see that you folks enjoy thinking about the same 'what if' stuff that I do, and we can share our varied points of view, maybe personal experiences. I can learn from each of you, I'll guarantee! I suppose I go back a 'long way' with the forum here in a way I guess, remembering many who've come and gone here. I'm glad to see the newer members step up to the bat and keep the 'tree of knowledge' here going on, maybe even better. I'm always impressed at GIM and the forum allowing so much in the way of posted images and videos. If I can re-post the vids in any way to make it easier for some to view, let me know and I will ... SkyVike, thanks! My Dad passed away since we've talked here. He was a WW2 flier as you may recall. He always seemed to be cool under intense pressure. Maybe that is a trait of pilots like you, to suppress emotion when action is all that matters. This would be a good skill, perhaps inherited genetically, in disarming an armed attacker who has a gun. Thanks everyone for the comments. Some thoughts since posting this last night... It seems a short barrelled snubby and smaller gripped pistol would be harder to disarm in this way. Yet a revolver could be disabled in double action mode easily by just gripping the cylinder, preventing rotation to fire. An auto would fire only one time if the slide is gripped by you, and thereby disabled until the slide is racked. And yes my wooden gun will have no trigger guard as I don't want a broken finger during practice! It is FUN to think of what that trigger guard can do to HIS mangled trigger finger, yes! Call me sadistic only in that way ... Regarding the range, yes, close is good for disarming the bad guy's gun. In my estimation many bad guys are not too bright, unless in a position of high office such as government, churches or corporations. Their hubris is often their downfall, regrdless of staus and rank. I'm in my early 50's with a bald head, stoopy shoulders, glasses, gray hair, 6'-00" and maybe 175lbs. They might easily underestimate my abilities to hurt them quickly. i will plan on using this 'disguise' to lower my opponent's guard until I can strike decisively. In that way my supposed 'weakness' due to my age and appearance becomes my strength, as in seemingly dismissed as a violent physical aggressor. I try and look like a harmless old man until I take my shot, this is all out of Sun Tzu's 'Art of War' philosophy. Many of these techniques are something relatively new called 'Krav Maga'. This is the simple close-in but amazing style used by Jason Bourne in that excellent action flick trilogy. Yes it is Isreali but it works very well and regardless of how anyone feels about Israeli politics -- fighting is fighting, politics is politics. I want the best skills available anywhere ... and Israel seems to have some of the world's best PRACTICAL fighting skills training out there right now for whatever reason. But on YouTube it is ours as well. Just for fun, here is an example of Krav Manga used by Jason Bourne. Some of the gun disarm techniques are right out of the simple step-by-step videos that I showed earlier. 'Baby-face' Jason Bourne is State-of-the Art in action movies today, IMO... If I myself could be just 10% like Jason Bourne with a simple local-yocal thug ... I'm just really happy to KICK HIS THUG ASS for pointing a gun at ME.:36_1_34: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C9XSf8QrFU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C9XSf8QrFU
Elbows are wonderful weapons, and broken bones are easy things to make. Yes, practice is the KEY! It's up to me now. Enjoy the movie!

hystckndle | 11-17-2008 04:53 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Huh.....!!??? I thought YOU were Jason Bourne... :wink:

koyaanisqatsi | 11-17-2008 06:05 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Quote:
Originally Posted by scottp999 (Post 1420679) Ever watch Bas Rutten's video? A former terror of a bouncer that was one of the forerunners in the MMA world. Fought in Pancrace, UFC. "Bas Rutten's lethal street fighting defense system" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQVaTEPOsTA
I love this kind of stuff Scott, thanks! I used to wonder in amazement as a kid, how James Bond, now Jason Bourne, was so resourceful and anything could become a weapon, i.e. table salt, even a ball point pen or a drinking glass. The stuff Rutten teaches seems brutal and practical too, easy to grasp and employ techniques. I chat with an ex-Army Ranger (I believe him) about my age, occasionally long talks over coffee. He explained that in Ranger School 4 feet is the distance considered to be a distinct threat zone from potential assailants in hand-to-hand. Once he was caught between 2 men in what he felt was an incremental attempt to intimidate and attack him ... He said he began to command "FOUR FEET GUYS, GET AWAY, FOUR FEET..." and the pair sensed this was NOT an easy mark and broke away, cursing and talking trash, but gone. Hystckcndl, your comments inspire me to quote some greater than me ... this self defense stuff, it IS a mind-thing as you know... “He is able who thinks he is able.” ~ Buddha “What your heart thinks is great, is great. The soul's emphasis is always right.” ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson “A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi quotes And so yes maybe, I will become Jason Bourne 'in my MIND' :coolbeer: Sun Tzu would say that the opponent with the gun has taken "formation" and you should remain "formless" until an instant of decisive strike like an uncoiling of lightning, to be "felt before it is heard." A physics teacher would explain that it takes about 1/10 of a second at best, for a visual signal transmission to be received by the brain's motor center and trigger finger... that is your opening advantage perhaps in frontal gun disarm. Sun Tzu would explain that a wise General has won the battle before it begins, and it will begin at his time and place of choosing. Oh well, this means a lot to me... A confession: I have a repressed nightmare that I am confronted by my own gun, and that I'm facing my carefully selected hollow-point high-velocity screamers... If so I want to be outraged at the theft of my rightful command and be able to ACT somehow to regain my freedom. Here's yet another video related to this gun disarm methodology I should add here, just to feed the thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM6Bpz6-dio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM6Bpz6-dio

gpond | 11-17-2008 06:11 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Yes, welcome back, Koy(!), and we are thinking alike here. I have already been looking at these and working on this. These guys' website is bad, but their material is really quite good. They hold training events frequently. The DVDs and training sessions cost some moolah, but the material and principles are very good, IMHO. http://www.targetfocustraining.com/what_is_tft.html

Jaxon | 11-17-2008 06:49 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? A word of warning to anyone who wants to practice the techniques in the video: I'm not at all convinced that this stuff would actually work. I saw nothing in any of these videos that indicate the techniques would work against a resisting opponent. The partners in each of these drills acted compliantly, making no effort to fight back once the instructor began an attempt to take his gun away. If I were serious about being able to wrestle a gun away from someone, I might get an airsoft pistol, grab a partner, gear up with some goggles for eye protection, a cup, a mouthpiece, some some open-fingered MMA gloves, and try to do some more realistic fighting. The goal of the bad guy would be to shoot or kill me, any way he could, and my goal as the victim would be to either escape, disarm, or shoot the bad guy, any way I could. I might start out practicing some of the defenses shown in the videos, and see if any of them has any merit when the bad guy is intent on fighting back. I would also switch roles and see if size, strength, or distance has any effect on the outcome. Keep track of what is most effective. Not all techniques will work the same for everyone or against everyone. I'd be a lot more confident in my skills practicing in this fashion, or at least more realistic about my chances fighting unarmed against someone with a gun.

koyaanisqatsi | 11-17-2008 07:18 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Jaxon, that is EXCELLENT advice I feel. I especially like the airsoft and goggles testing but I think even a plastic trigger guard would be dangerous to the test subject if done at full adrenaline powered speed. I give you my word I am about to produce a smooth sanded whittled wooden pistol facsimile of approximate .45 Govt 1911 size dimensions with no trigger guard. I will practice with a good friend who is age 35, and lean and fit, and interested in perfecting these very methods with me. From here on it may rekindle my past limited experiences in martial arts and Close Quarters Combat fighting techniques. (very littel actually, but a keen interest) I also own Close Combat and Hand to Hand Fighting, USMC FMFM 0-7 a manual courtesy some of our Marine Corp's finest. Hail Major General Smedley Butler! It's simple and totally quick and brutal stuff in confronting an assailant via what it calls, "Linear Infighting Neural Engagement" or "LINE" techniques. But all these manuals and even videos -- they are like learning to drive a real car through a chicane -- by having never driven a real car before, just reading a book about driving or just viewing a video about driving... or dancing... or kissing... or swimming... just imagine how bad a performer in our first trials you or I would probably be! And like Gpond's excellent linked supplement mentions, you are as you train. If you train in practice not to break a finger, in reality you will not act to break his finger... as a for instance, this even cautions against too strict a training regimine. Thanks for the cautious reminders, yes!

gpond | 11-17-2008 08:17 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? This one click here is more about handling a knife attack when you have a gun (still a VERY dangerous situation), but the principles are still the same. (Jaxon, check this one out!) Run your eye down the page and look for "video clip" and watch it. They aren't giving anything away, they want you to buy it (and I did) but they are doing some hard-core training here. The principles, (though not the training techniques) are similar to the TFT info I posted earlier. In the earlier material I posted, Target Focus Training, they are most interested in INJURING the other man, and hopefully shutting down the other guy's brain. They don't focus on snatching the weapon, though certainly avoiding the hurting parts (like the barrel of the gun, and the knife itself) but MORE important than that is to SHUT DOWN THE OTHER MAN right now. This makes some sense. In a gun fight you ARE likely to get shot or at least nicked, in a knife fight you ARE likely to get cut. The statistics support that a single gunshot wound or a single cut of the knife is unlikely to kill you. You will seek medical attention. The larger threat at that instant is for you to be REPEATEDLY shot and/or REPEATEDLY stabbed. Therefore it is paramount that you shut off the only real weapon the other man has: HIS BRAIN. (And, of course, the use of his body.)

CyberGold | 11-17-2008 09:11 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Thanks for the methods to d/l videos, this is all good stuff.

Jaxon | 11-17-2008 09:15 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Gpond: The work that you see in the Dog Brothers' video is precisely the kind of training that I spoke of. Feel free to buy their videos if you find it interesting. With them, I'm confident that the techniques that they present will have been developed from actual experience fighting resisting opponents. Nevertheless, the videos should only be used as a starting point. Fighting isn't learned solely from watching a video. Getting a partner to spar with you -- having an unpredictable opponent who is actively trying to thwart your plans -- is the only way to give yourself the ability to perform the way the people in the video do.

Lt Dan | 11-17-2008 09:24 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? One of the best threads I've seen in a long time.... Mods, is it possible to make this thread a sticky?

gpond | 11-17-2008 09:28 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxon (Post 1421102) Gpond: The work that you see in the Dog Brothers' video is precisely the kind of training that I spoke of. Feel free to buy their videos if you find it interesting. With them, I'm confident that the techniques that they present will have been developed from actual experience fighting resisting opponents. Nevertheless, the videos should only be used as a starting point. Fighting isn't learned solely from watching a video. Getting a partner to spar with you -- having an unpredictable opponent who is actively trying to thwart your plans -- is the only way to give yourself the ability to perform the way the people in the video do.
I am sure you are right. I do not have a training partner, so currently all I can do is get past my ingrained inhibition against sticking my fingers up to the knuckles in the other guy's eye sockets. Imagined training can be helpful, but not as helpful as what you stated. Still we must train injury w/o actually causing one, lest we have no partners anymore. You are right. The videos are a starting point, that is all.

GunNut | 11-20-2008 03:27 AM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? One of the best ways of preventing being attacked or mugged is pretty simple, BE AWARE OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS AT ALL TIMES. Criminals will always look for the easiest prey. Just go to any theme park, mall, home improvement store, grochery store, etc it doesn't matter the place. 95% of people out and about are completely clueless about everything around them aside from their personal world. When most people are mugged or attacked they never see it coming, weather the person jumped out from somewhere, walked up behind them or walked up to them face to face. When I'm walking from my truck into a store or back out, I'm always looking around, always glancing behind me, listening for footsteps; weather I'm alone or with company. When I walk by storefronts, I always look at the window like a mirror. It's not that I'm paranoid, I'm sending signals out that I'm aware and on gaurd. When people walk by me I always look them in the eye just to say "I see you". I very seldom talk on my cell phone in public, it just shows I'm distracted. Don't look like a victim, then most likely won't be a victim.

mtnman | 11-20-2008 09:37 AM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Quote:
Originally Posted by GunNut (Post 1425769) One of the best ways of preventing being attacked or mugged is pretty simple, BE AWARE OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS AT ALL TIMES. Don't look like a victim, then most likely won't be a victim.
This advice WILL save your life.

Fermentation | 11-20-2008 10:08 AM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Quote:
Originally Posted by GunNut (Post 1425769) One of the best ways of preventing being attacked or mugged is pretty simple, BE AWARE OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS AT ALL TIMES. Criminals will always look for the easiest prey. Just go to any theme park, mall, home improvement store, grochery store, etc it doesn't matter the place. 95% of people out and about are completely clueless about everything around them aside from their personal world. When most people are mugged or attacked they never see it coming, weather the person jumped out from somewhere, walked up behind them or walked up to them face to face. When I'm walking from my truck into a store or back out, I'm always looking around, always glancing behind me, listening for footsteps; weather I'm alone or with company. When I walk by storefronts, I always look at the window like a mirror. It's not that I'm paranoid, I'm sending signals out that I'm aware and on gaurd. When people walk by me I always look them in the eye just to say "I see you". I very seldom talk on my cell phone in public, it just shows I'm distracted. Don't look like a victim, then most likely won't be a victim.
You said it mate, I'm amazed how little situational awareness people have, especially my own American Brothers and sisters. I think this comes from priviledge and feeling safe all the time ( Suburbs). I always scan the entire restaurant when I enter, also stores, hell everywhere actually.I always look in the back seat and floor of my car before I get in. It's natural now, so it doesn't feel like work, conversely, not doing it feels akward, though highly unlikely.

Lt Dan | 11-20-2008 10:10 AM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Awareness goes along with activating our brain. My wife used to be one of those victims waiting to happen when we first married. Well, I guess she was my victim. hehe She has come a long ways in awareness because of what I've drilled into her over the years. Still not learned the act of being an observer of her space. She'll walk right past friends in the store or on the street and not even notice them. Her own little world. Hate to say it, but just one time of being a victim would change her whole world view.

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koyaanisqatsi | 11-20-2008 12:45 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Quote:
Originally Posted by GunNut (Post 1425769) One of the best ways of preventing being attacked or mugged is pretty simple, BE AWARE OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS AT ALL TIMES. Criminals will always look for the easiest prey. Just go to any theme park, mall, home improvement store, grochery store, etc it doesn't matter the place. 95% of people out and about are completely clueless about everything around them aside from their personal world. When most people are mugged or attacked they never see it coming, weather the person jumped out from somewhere, walked up behind them or walked up to them face to face. When I'm walking from my truck into a store or back out, I'm always looking around, always glancing behind me, listening for footsteps; weather I'm alone or with company. When I walk by storefronts, I always look at the window like a mirror. It's not that I'm paranoid, I'm sending signals out that I'm aware and on gaurd. When people walk by me I always look them in the eye just to say "I see you". I very seldom talk on my cell phone in public, it just shows I'm distracted. Don't look like a victim, then most likely won't be a victim.
Speaking frankly, I think that's true and good to consider -- up to a point, and it sure helps in deterring fist fights and such, IMHO... but an assailant who has a gun, or safety in numbers, is not always deterred by one-on-one physical intimidation. The jealous man I mentioned in the opening was married with 2 kids, a Vietnam veteran, smaller than me maybe by 3-4", and he was drunk -- and yet he came to my apartment unexpectedly at midnight years ago and stuck a .32 auto almost up my nose and ordered me ot my knees to 'pray to God.' I suspect it was his smallish size that compelled him to stick that pistol in my face - he probably had 'little man complex' and that pistol made him feel big. After appeasing him and his ego needs for a moment, he left my front door. I ran up the stairs and quickly loaded my 870 20ga, then ran out into the yard after him to 'play guns' with him since he liked them so much -- but thank god he was gone by then from the parking lot... or I would have done a bad thing back then at age 21 or so...(He apoligized to me a week later) Later I was mugged by 4 men as I was delivering a pizza at midnight in a bad neighborhood, moonlighting. I was set up with that pizza call and whoever was by chance about to deliver that pizza was going to get slammed to the pavement by muggers by ambush tbefore he could react or resist. My own self confidence in my ability to fend off attack was in a way my downfall, as I was very athletic, about age 32, 6' tall, 170lbs and sending out no fear signs to anyone. Pizza men are attacked because they can be easily placed in harm's was and are always asumed to be unarmed. They are set up to fall. One mugger was distracting me with his hands, while 3 more who had been concealed behind a parked car tackeld me to the pavement from behind. I was picked up overhead and SLAMMED upside down to the pavement onto my head. I caught the blow primarily with my right elbow and shoulder, suffering a torn rotator cuff and bruises and abrasions. They stole $30 and 2 large pepperoni pizzas. If I'd had a gun they may or may not have found it. I might have found them pointing my gun at me. --- They 'rolled me' and then ripped the hip pocket open to get my wallet tearing my pants, and I'm glad I did not keep the wallet in the front as I do now, or the incident might have lasted even longer. (After the mugging incident 22 years ago, I've never been the same in some ways -- I'm VERY VERY AWARE... much hightened awareness, often stopping to listen, notice signs, peering around corners, overhead, and behind my back compulsively... and one reason I'm repelled by some social settings, drawn to the comfort of wilderness solitude) My Dad was on business in the 70's in Washington DC and one of his co-workers, another WW2 veteran, was shot in the stomach with a .38 resisting a mugging and killed by the incident after lingering in the hospital for days. I doubt that man projected vulnerability but rather was in the wrong clothes, wrong place, but primarily at the wrong time... Dad later carried that little Berretta 21 .22LR in his pants pocket for many years, no permit, perhaps as a result. (After firing a .50BMG at German ME-109s, it would be his pleasure to use a puny .22 long rifle to the forehead on a disgusting mugger, like killing a pig in a pen back in his country boy days. Dad did not like violent criminals one bit, no respect at all.) I'd say be wary of too much personal faith in projecting invulnerability, that in a way is hubris. It can happen to you and me as we assume a postion of strength in our minds. Observation and situational awareness is ALWAYS good, essential to safety, no disputes about that regimen ever, but sometimes you can see it coming and yet still have to face a gun or overwhelming attack. And lastly I quote details from an incedent of an obviously aware and fit ex-marine being mugged in Atlanta: It turns out a band of thugs selected him for a mugging and possible killing. They chased him down the street. He ran yelling “fire” and after some running decided he was going to have to stand his ground. There were 5 thugs, armed with a shotgun, a pistol and a pair of brass knuckles. Mr. Autry only had a pocket knife. Guess who won? Mr. Autry killed one of the thugs (a female) and cut another (a male) pretty good. They had to give up and all 4 of the remaining living thugs are now in police custody. Mr. Autry protected himself and saved a community from a band of thugs, that cops knew had been operating in the area for some time. Autry said he was honorably discharged from the Marines in 1992 after serving for four years. The Department of Defense confirmed his service, but would not provide any details.http://www.independentconservative.com/2006/05/ Now that I'm 20-30 years older, remembering attacks that happened as I was younger, it's time to learn gun-disarms ... and I need to get that wooden gun made, but I may wait until after Thanksgiving to start my training program in earnest. Thanks for your interest and supportive inputs, and yes this is just my OPINION. "When you are strong. appear to be weak." "When you are weak, appear to be strong." ~Sun Tzu, 'The Art of War', from about +/-0AD

GunNut | 11-21-2008 02:45 AM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? [QUOTE=koyaanisqatsi;1426436]Speaking frankly, I think that's true and good to consider -- up to a point, and it sure helps in deterring fist fights and such, IMHO... but an assailant who has a gun, or safety in numbers, is not always deterred by one-on-one physical intimidation. I wasn't saying it's a 100% percent kinda deal. My reply wasn't ment to say it would help you in an ambush situation, someone with a vendetta, or a group hell-bent on stomping your guts out or worse. I will take being aware of my surroundings anyday as opposed to trying to take away a gun or a knife from a badguy. I'm mainly talking about prevention, as I stated before. I doesn't help in every situation. This is what I personally do to keep my A$$ in one peice. I have a permit to carry a pistol in my home state, that helps me take care of the other situations. Again, not a 100% safegaurd. I carry my pistol as close to 100% of the time as I can, then I'm hyper-alert. I practice on a very regular basis with my carry gun, normally I put 50 rounds through it everytime I shoot it. I keep it loaded with defensive rounds and carry it a quality pancake style holster at 10 o'clock(I'm a south paw), chances are if some little hood-rat tries to mug me and is armed. I have a better chance of living through it than him. Most likely they will be pulling a gun from the front of their pants or a pocket, chances of them snagging on clothing is a lot better than me. I also practice doing draws and firing with snap caps in my sidearm. I take my life very seriously, my friends, family and having to right to carry just as seriously. I would just rather take being prepared and aware over getting caught off gaurd and trying to take a gun away from someone. I wasn't trying to disagree with you or throw your thread off track.

koyaanisqatsi | 11-21-2008 11:40 AM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? GunNut, we are one in agreement, on the same page in our thoughts here. You definitely are on target, IMO. A funny thing about me on these forums ... I admit sometimes I take an issue TOO far one way just to make my own points, like making up a 'point of contention'. (growing up I learned a hillbilly colloquialism, "Let's be sure we've all ironed this out.") Please excuse me this fault in forum conversation, it happens with all my friends and they might eventually come to understand how I discuss almost any complex issue, almost parsing words at times. Then I hope we can come back to the place we were in the first place. It's not meant as argument or even disagreement, my discourse is often meant just to 'get it spelled out right' openly or 'flesh out' the ideas and find complete understanding after a bit of careful clarification. I'll diverge from my own thread a bit now now... I don't have my Conceal-Carry and won't for maybe 2 months. But I just bought a Bianchi pocket holster for my Dad's old Beretta 21 pocket pistol... I can imagine quickly but subtley slipping my right hand into my pocket, hand on the grip, finger on the trigger, ready to bring it up and fire in one quick motion onto the bad guy and BANG, bang, bang... There will be no time for him to study that little pistol and take it away as is depicted in these videos ... Until then, if I see myself approached in a threatening manner, I'm prepared to run a strong bluff if it looks like attack is imminent, doing the same thing as above but with no gun, turn and face my potential attackers, slip my hand in my pocket, looking him or them in the eyes, and calmly, confidently ask, "You want trouble? You look like you want trouble, so leave me the 'F' ALONE." I hope the bad guy's 'not-knowing' whatever I'm hiding will be enough to break the slow pursuit. If not -- I'll probably try and run like hell! (But I know in a 'fight-flight-or freeze' scenario, my natural inclination is to FIGHT, once I see an opening) Some thoughts; An ankle holster would probably be the last place a mugger would look to steal our guns after we are down, and for that reason alone they would appeal to me, perhaps as a 2nd back-up weapon in case the bad guy gets my primary carry gun. Then I might 'dis-arm' him with quick deliberate shots from the unexpected gun #2, if he becomes over-confident holding my gun#1 ... in the 'fog of war' who can say, about any 'plan B?' 2nd thought; You GunNut, are a lefty, and whenever I train in martial arts or the like, I ALWAYS seem to train for the right-handed attacker, a mistake. These are just some of the issues I'm considering. And I KNOW I'M NOT an EXPERT, I know some reading this may be more so an 'expert' than I here. But in my experiences as a charter boat captain, I know to always expect the unexpected, even from a stupid bad guy, and to have a contingency plan for just about anything and everything I can imagine ... as I study my suroundings carefully all the time for threat or opportunity in ever-changing conditions. It's the same on the streets I guess, the damn pirates never look like pirates, until it's too late. And yet I'd never give up hope of vanquishing my foe when he presents an opportunity. -- As would you, I'm sure. "Vulnerability is found by studying your opponent carefully. Invulnerability is found by studying one's self" ~Sun Tzu And if I seem overly paranoid, maybe it's because one has not been properly mugged or threatened yet? :ok: Like most here at GIM I expect, I get REAL MAD whenever I have to beg for mercy... And so with great respect to all here, forgive me my GIM verbose ramblings - But I'm having fun here - :coolbeer:THANKS!

wallew | 11-21-2008 12:59 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? It's called "CONDITION YELLOW" - aware of your surroundings AT ALL TIMES. Which is how I've lived for more than thirty years. In the past twenty years, I've had two guns pointed at me as the owner demanded money. I saw it coming both times. In each instance, looking down the barrel of MY .45 ACP and hearing me say I am going to kill them caused them to reconsider. AND KILL THEM I WOULD HAVE, WITHOUT HESITATION. You not only have to know what you are doing, but be willing to 'follow through'. Whenever I go anywhere I always have a weapon. Mainly a handgun, but sometimes just a large knife. Which I've also used on one occasion a LONG time ago to hold off four attackers until my buddy fired up my convertible and we roared away. If you are unwilling or unable to finish the job, then you are just another victim waiting to be had. If you ARE willing to finish the job you might still be a victim, but BY GOD I'm taking as many of them with me as I can and I will go down swinging, shooting, cutting, biting and jabbing. I have owned two custom made leather jackets and each had a custom made pouch in them (front left breast, inside the jacket) so I could either fire the gun there or pull it out. I've sold both over the years and am about to go get yet another one made by my custom leather maker. You make your own choices. I've lost two friends to gun fire. One died at the hands of a mugger in Houston. The other died at Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas. Both died more than twenty years ago. I resolved a LONG time ago I will do whatever it takes. And that's a decision you have to make in advance, not on the spot. WHATEVER IT TAKES. PERIOD. END OF STORY.

koyaanisqatsi | 11-21-2008 02:38 PM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1428408) You not only have to know what you are doing, but be willing to 'follow through'... If you are unwilling or unable to finish the job, then you are just another victim waiting to be had. If you ARE willing to finish the job you might still be a victim, but BY GOD I'm taking as many of them with me as I can and I will go down swinging, shooting, cutting, biting and jabbing.
There are many ways to do a 'frontal gun dis-arm' but we know we must ACT when the time is optimum, and even a decision to do nothing is an ACT. I'd enjoy an ability to put my opponent off guard, so I can ACT. If you don't mind me saying so, my good friend wallew, it sounds to me you'd tend to disarm a gun like ol' Captain Kirk! Whatever works at the time -- is BEST! An Alternate Method of Frontal Gun Dis-Arming an Opponent http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AYG4y5et5g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AYG4y5et5g

GunNut | 11-22-2008 12:22 AM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? Koyaanisqatsi, I was thinking we were talking along the same lines, that is the one hardest things about conversations via the internet. You may be on the same page, can be kinda hard to tell sometimes. Yeah, being a southaw does have some advantages. I have worked with people for years before they notice I'm left handed, once in awhile when people stick out their right hand to shake and then I stick out my left one. Throws people for a loop, kinda funny to watch them have to switch hands. I usually tell them that "I live in your world all the time, live in mine for two seconds".

koyaanisqatsi | 11-28-2008 01:22 AM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? 2 Attachment(s) :23_31_2: Here is the fake wooden 'generic' handgun I've now fashioned. I hope the attached pictures look fairly clear. It took me maybe a couple of hours total work time to get the project almost finished here. It's made of poplar board, 3/4" thick, joined with (2) 2-1/4" woodscrews vertically down through the pistol's top that you can't see here. The butt-joint is also glued with Tite-bond. I whittled it to round it, and then sanded it to take it down pretty smooth. End grain is sealed with a layer of Tite-bond for smoothness. The simulated 'trigger' is a 12ga galvanized steel wire, much like bent coat-hanger wire, inserted into pre-drilled holes and epoxied solidly inside. As specfied there is no trigger guard for safer practice. Overall dimensions of this wooden pistol are 7" long x 5-3/8" tall. Tomorrow I will spray-paint it black for visual effect and to eliminate any tiny splinters. It seems to be quite sturdy. I'm thinking, if these methods do not work, why would special-ops-types spend so much effort practicing the methods? I am confident that WITH PRACTICE, as with anything, one can greatly increase personal speed and proficiency and therby the percentage of likely success in potential disarming of a handgun. It will always be a "last resort" but an option when there are no others... Practice with my friend, or maybe two friends, in front of the laptop and the several YouTube vids here, might begin as soon as this weekend. Probably no photos of the 'action practice' will be taken, no need or desire for me to look goofy. But I'll honestly take notes and let you know how it goes later on... :5_1_120: One image below compares it side-by-side to a compact semi-automatic, my 9mm Mak caliber CZ 83. Another shows a Taurus 85UL .38+P snubnose overlaid on top for comparison sizing.

Russkie | 12-01-2008 07:22 AM
Re: How to take away HIS gun, you may wish you knew? I've been a martial arts instructor for 15 years, and I teach this stuff. three things you've got to know; 1. Train to exhaustion, so your body does it without thinking. Use voice triggers to activate the proccess. A quick finger-whip to the eyes can buy you a milisecond in wich to do the technique. Don't telegraph, practice from a relaxed position. If you relax your body and let your eyelids droop a bit, this send him a sub-conscious message to relax. Practice going from this relaxed look right in to full-on attack. It will buy you a much needed milisecond. 2. Get your body out of the line of fire first, no matter what. 3. If it comes down to a toussle for the weapon (your technique doesn't go off as expected), attack a more vulnerable target which is being ignored. If he is focusing all his strength and attention on the hands, put a quick thumb in his eye, or reach around the back of his head and tear off a piece of his cheek, then take the gun away. If it comes down to a toussle, pin his foot with yours, so he can't back away and take the weapon with him. Stomp it and break it, so he can't stand. Gouge eyes. Play dirty. Practice both of you falling to the ground while struggling for the weapon. All that being said, there is no reason for an intelligent person to ever have to be in that situation. It can almost always be avoided with some street smarts- as in don't be out on the streets under sketchy circumstances.

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