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tanner12oz | 08-07-2008 05:28 PM
Hypothetical Hostage Situation i think about these what if's all day while bored to death at work....... you are concealed carrying....your at a bank. while in the bank a lone gunman demands cash. orders all customers and such to the floor. shakin up the teller pretty good. pointing gun at her. maybe wackin her around a bit. your off to the side (15-25 yards) watching all this. gunmen paying attention mainly to the teller and the cash. you feel you can safetly get off a shot...... A.) Do You Shoot? B.) If Yes Where Do You Shoot Him? also a side question...if you shoot the robber and then he shoots the teller.....could you be charged with anything??? feel free to add your own hypothetical if your like me and you think about this crap all day.

Maximus | 08-07-2008 05:32 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation I carry to protect myself and loved ones only. If others want to walk around as victims let em. If the BG threatens me, it's on.

Mantokir | 08-07-2008 05:53 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation depending on what's behind him, relative to me, I'd go for something below the counter (in case I miss to the side the teller is on) till him shooting the teller is no longer a worry. I'd also wait till he has the gun pointed away from anyone.

C4talyst | 08-07-2008 06:00 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation I CCW everywhere and have had training for this exact scenario. You have to quickly deduce the safety of yourself and others first (obviously). If you can get off a shot you aim for the head or chest...your goal is to end the threat as quickly as possible. I don't know if the robber shooting the teller will relate to you having criminal charges filed against you...civil action is quite probable though.

Mantokir | 08-07-2008 06:02 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by C4talyst (Post 1227724) I CCW everywhere and have had training for this exact scenario. You have to quickly deduce the safety of yourself and others first (obviously). If you can get off a shot you aim for the head or chest...your goal is to end the threat as quickly as possible. I don't know if the robber shooting the teller will relate to you having criminal charges filed against you...civil action is quite probable though.
Dunno about other states, and I'm not even sure about mine. I think here you can use deadly force if you or someone else is in immediate danger. You would go to the chest even if he's close to the teller? << I'm new to the CCW scene so I'm still learnin...

SLV>GLD | 08-07-2008 06:04 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Shoot the BG, grab the cash and shoot anyone else who tries to stop you? Seriously, I would ready myself for self-defense and remind myself that this guy really just wants to get the holy hell out of there with no additional charges to deal with if he does get caught.

mtnman | 08-07-2008 06:07 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus (Post 1227687) I carry to protect myself and loved ones only. If others want to walk around as victims let em. If the BG threatens me, it's on.
Same here...I would have revolver in hand though, just in case BG confronted me. Now if the BG started shooting, I�d put him down.

tanner12oz | 08-07-2008 06:16 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by C4talyst (Post 1227724) I CCW everywhere and have had training for this exact scenario. You have to quickly deduce the safety of yourself and others first (obviously). If you can get off a shot you aim for the head or chest...your goal is to end the threat as quickly as possible. I don't know if the robber shooting the teller will relate to you having criminal charges filed against you...civil action is quite probable though.
i would be interested in a class like that....what was the name of the course???

SilverCity | 08-07-2008 06:46 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation It happened in my town several years ago. Seems Joe Citizen was standing in line at a bank. Guy in front of him pulled out a revolver and stuck it in the face of the young teller and demanded she turn over her cash. Joe Citizen stepped up, pulled out his .45 Gold Cup, placed it at the back of the guy's head and fired...blowing the erstwhile robber's brains out all over the terrified teller. Cops had a sit-down with him after the incident, made a show of scolding him at first, privately thanking him, then called it a good shoot and he became a public hero... Not sure how I would have reacted in the hypothetical case. If the robber didn't harm anyone I would play it cool...unless the robber started shooting, then all bets are off.

JJ_ | 08-07-2008 06:47 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus (Post 1227687) I carry to protect myself and loved ones only. If others want to walk around as victims let em. If the BG threatens me, it's on.
:thumbs up Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 1227734) Same here...I would have revolver in hand though, just in case BG confronted me. Now if the BG started shooting, I’d put him down.
:thumbs up Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 1227729) Seriously, I would ready myself for self-defense and remind myself that this guy really just wants to get the holy hell out of there with no additional charges to deal with if he does get caught.
:thumbs up I agree w/ you guys. Don't make a bad situation worse.

JJ_ | 08-07-2008 06:50 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 1227803) It happened in my town several years ago. Seems Joe Citizen was standing in line at a bank. Guy in front of him pulled out a revolver and stuck in the face of the young teller and demanded she turn over her cash. Joe Citizen stepped up, pulled out his Gold Cup .45, placed it at the back of the guy's head and fired...blowing the erstwhile robber's brains out all over the terrified teller. Cops had a sit-down with him after the incident, made a show of scolding him at first, privately thanking him, then called it a good shoot and he became a public hero...
holy crap! I bet that poor teller had nightmares for months!:shocked_ma:

ruprick | 08-07-2008 06:56 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Do not shoot....he is probably just after the $....not there to kill anyone...unless you escalate it to a gun fight. If you shoot.....better be a head shot and 100% sure shot to kill...otherwise...your action will probably cost lives. I CCW everywhere.....only shoot to protect your or others lives....it you were real close to the perp and knew you could shoot to "stop the threat" and be 100% sure of not provoking additional deaths....

TTAZZMAN | 08-07-2008 07:38 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 1227734) Same here...I would have revolver in hand though, just in case BG confronted me. Now if the BG started shooting, I�d put him down.
DITTO!!! x10 to even consider doing anything else i think would be stepping out of bounds. and a reason for a person to NOT be allowed to CCW IE. who elected me or asked me to endanger others on my perception of the scene, Its my right to protect myself, my possessions etc.

Fullpower | 08-07-2008 07:44 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation I train all the kids at my house to make FAST instinctive headshots. My 17 year old has nailed 4 steel plates in UNDER 3 SECONDS, from a concealed draw. ( He has been shooting his OWN .45 since the age of 8 years.) You DO NOT want to take any hostages around my homestead.

107.8682 | 08-07-2008 07:54 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by tanner12oz (Post 1227678) i think about these what if's all day while bored to death at work....... you are concealed carrying....your at a bank. while in the bank a lone gunman demands cash. orders all customers and such to the floor. shakin up the teller pretty good. pointing gun at her. maybe wackin her around a bit. your off to the side (15-25 yards) watching all this. gunmen paying attention mainly to the teller and the cash. you feel you can safetly get off a shot...... A.) Do You Shoot? B.) If Yes Where Do You Shoot Him? also a side question...if you shoot the robber and then he shoots the teller.....could you be charged with anything??? feel free to add your own hypothetical if your like me and you think about this crap all day.
What are you carrying and what is he carrying? Is he White, older, appears to be experienced? If he's a non-White punk, he's gonna get one in the back. Justifiable homicide in light of threat of grave bodily harm or death to others. If he shoots the teller, no liability for the good guy. But make sure he doesn't get the chance!!

107.8682 | 08-07-2008 07:56 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 1227803) Joe Citizen stepped up, pulled out his Gold Cup .45, placed it at the back of the guy's head and fired...blowing the erstwhile robber's brains out all over the terrified teller.
Yuck...couldn't he have had some regard for the teller, and shot him elsewhere? :D

107.8682 | 08-07-2008 08:02 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by TTAZZMAN (Post 1227881) who elected me or asked me to endanger others on my perception of the scene, Its my right to protect myself, my possessions etc.
For all the big talk on this forum about gun rights outside of California, such a situation is clearly covered by California's justifiable homicide clause. California Penal Code 197: Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases: 1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or, 2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein; or, 3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed; or, 4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.

madfranks | 08-07-2008 09:14 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 1227729) Seriously, I would ready myself for self-defense and remind myself that this guy really just wants to get the holy hell out of there with no additional charges to deal with if he does get caught.
Think about this. 20 years ago someone would rob you, then run away, and let you live. Today, a punk will rob you, and shoot you anyway just for kicks. There are a lot more psychos out there today who will, after getting the sack of bank money, shoot a few people up just for the fun of it - do you want to be one of those people? The second a guy pulls a gun and threatens anyone with it, I assume that threat carries over to me as well. And when someone is threatening my life, I will do whatever I can to neutralize it. And if the punk is standing with his back to me while he yells at someone else, hey that makes it easier for me.

107.8682 | 08-07-2008 10:25 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by madfranks (Post 1228009) Think about this. 20 years ago someone would rob you, then run away, and let you live. Today, a punk will rob you, and shoot you anyway just for kicks. There are a lot more psychos out there today who will, after getting the sack of bank money, shoot a few people up just for the fun of it - do you want to be one of those people? The second a guy pulls a gun and threatens anyone with it, I assume that threat carries over to me as well. And when someone is threatening my life, I will do whatever I can to neutralize it. And if the punk is standing with his back to me while he yells at someone else, hey that makes it easier for me.
EXACTLY. Pretending it's "not my business" can have unfortunate consequences. Do what you can when it's best.

SLV>GLD | 08-07-2008 11:13 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by 107.8682 (Post 1228142) EXACTLY. Pretending it's "not my business" can have unfortunate consequences. Do what you can when it's best.
Haha, okay, your point is just as good as mine. I'm sticking to the fact that this guy already has his piece out and has a sweaty trigger finger. I mean who knows, right? I'm not saying it's not my business, I'm saying prudence may keep your ass in one piece while playing vigilante cop will very likely see both of you getting plugged. Somehow I would expect the armed man to get a few rounds off at the guy who just shot him. It's definitely my business and my business is staying alive and intact. What would a GIM'er be doing in a bank, anyway?:D

TTAZZMAN | 08-07-2008 11:16 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by 107.8682 (Post 1227926) For all the big talk on this forum about gun rights outside of California, such a situation is clearly covered by California's justifiable homicide clause. California Penal Code 197: Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases: 1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or, 2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein; or, 3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed; or, 4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.
not to argue...but my statement was not about the legality of the situation, it was about ME taking care of a threat against me, and if i were a hostage some dude thinking he is going to make a head shot from 25ft accross a bank lobby would be endangering me as much as the BG and possibly endangering my childeren standing next to me. I dont want to TRUST some other person with that kind of decision for me and my children. He of course as I of course feel i have 110% right to kill to protect myself my family or my property. To many people have watched to much Rambo on TV and are not trained or dont have a full situational awareness and i dont want that type of person makeing life or death decisions for me

107.8682 | 08-07-2008 11:51 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by TTAZZMAN (Post 1228217) some dude thinking he is going to make a head shot from 25ft accross a bank lobby
Agreed, which is why I would not advocate a try for his dome. If you have the right equipment and you aim for the middle of SOB's back, he's done with one round from even a fair shot.

Worldmariner | 08-08-2008 01:57 AM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by TTAZZMAN (Post 1228217) not to argue...but my statement was not about the legality of the situation, it was about ME taking care of a threat against me, and if i were a hostage some dude thinking he is going to make a head shot from 25ft accross a bank lobby would be endangering me as much as the BG and possibly endangering my childeren standing next to me. I dont want to TRUST some other person with that kind of decision for me and my children. He of course as I of course feel i have 110% right to kill to protect myself my family or my property. To many people have watched to much Rambo on TV and are not trained or dont have a full situational awareness and i dont want that type of person makeing life or death decisions for me
I think that in our modern society, you cannot dissassociate th elegality from the defense of your life. I feel that both must be considered. Me? I would not shoot unless: 1) He starts shooting people 2) He points his gun in my general direction. Once he shoots (at or hits) another person, then I KNOW I am golden and would shoot. If he points at me, I KNOW I am golden and would shoot. Why? As another poster stated, the BG probably just wants to get the heck out of there ASAP. Hey, it is just INSURED money. The home office will have another truck load of it there first thing in the morning. Let him take it, no worries. Enjoy your score bro. SO FAR it has not escalted into a gun fight, and I do not want to be the recipient of a lawsuit by someone, possibly the BG's family, should I be the first one to shoot (unless he points at me). Let the perp walk, I would say. My ego does not demand I be a hero.

JJ_ | 08-08-2008 09:21 AM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 1228213) What would a GIM'er be doing in a bank, anyway?:D
closing his accounts ....:D

ruprick | 08-08-2008 09:44 AM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation About 80% of the guys around here have no pratical experience or judgement when it comes to guns....I see tons of bad advice. There guys have no idea. It is not like TV. They are gun crazy. I've carried a gun for 25 years....only leagally for the past 6 years. It was impossible to get a CCW prior to 6 years ago...so i just carried anyway.... One shot instant stopping power just does not exist from a carry gun....a solid torso shot will not stop a guy very fast....yes, he will probably die but not very quickly. Ony a head shot has instant stop power. I've shot lots of deer with shotgun and rifles...yest instant death. I've shot deer with handguns ...44 mag, 357 mag, and even 45ACP....better get ready to do some tracking.....even with excellent shot placement......what is the diff between a 200 lb man and a 200 lb deer...about the same sized animal.... Also, a lot around here want to be in a gun fight right away....I've been in a situation where I could have pulled a gun...against a gun...bad idea! Just gave up my dummy wallet and backed away....no shots fired.... Also...a few weeks ago a story posted here about a guy beat up at an amusment park by a gang of black animals in Minn.....if you had a gun you could brandish and perhaps stop the situation....next step a warning shot....final stop start shooting the bad guys.....most here wanted to start killing right away....these is a big difference between a fist fight and needing to shoot someone.... All that said....if you pull a gun and they have guns...you now just provoked a gun fight....so if it comes out be prepared to shoot....

SLV>GLD | 08-08-2008 09:55 AM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 1228712) so if it comes out be prepared to shoot....
Rule number one concerning drawing your weapon against a threat. It closely follows rule number 2 of gun safety: don't point the firearm at anything you don't want dead or destroyed. I sincerely hope that these folks advocating pre-emptive strike are not actually carrying. I have never drawn my weapon and I have certainly been in situations where it was justified. A calm head beats a big gun any day. I don't think people grasp that when your firearm comes out your life as you know it is OVER even if you walk away alive and well.

ProblemSolver | 08-08-2008 09:58 AM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation The only reason to begin shooting is if the BG starts plugging the hostages, or even fires his gun. I would agree that most people who actually rob banks, are just trying to get the money and go, they are not there to kill people. And, WHAT IF, you draw down on the guy, take him out of the action, and his buddy, who was waiting outside, or in the back of the room, incognito, opens up on you and the rest of the crowd, where, if you had done nothing, they would have simply left with the dough? Do not start the violence, end it if it starts. Make sure you're paying attention to all the details so you can be a good witness for the cops.

madfranks | 08-08-2008 12:21 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Like I said before, a psycho waving his gun around threatening to kill unless he gets money is a threat to my life. If I'm halfway across the bank the threat does not warrant starting the gunfight from there because of the high risk of a miss/collateral damage. But if I'm standing right behind the guy when he pulls the weapon and puts it in the face of the teller, then I would do what Joe Citizen did and take the guy out quickly and decisively from behind. How do I know the punk won't turn around and either point the gun at me and demand my wallet or just shoot after he got what he wanted? Senseless killings are becoming more the norm anyway. The scum of a human being came out looking for trouble and found it. Case closed.

Mujahideen | 08-08-2008 07:07 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Just let him rob the place & escape;unless he starts shooting people for no reason, or points a gun at you or loved one; You shouldn't try to be a hero if you don't have to.

Worldmariner | 08-08-2008 11:14 PM
Re: Hypothetical Hostage Situation Quote:
Originally Posted by madfranks (Post 1229013) . The scum of a human being came out looking for trouble and found it. Case closed.
Well, I think your logic is flawed... You forgot this part: I will assume (rightly or wrongly) that you are a middle class white guy with at least a high school diploma. This scenario can be tweaked either way, as you will see... 1) Good guy that shot the bad guy is IMMEDIATELY arrested (remember, you don't get to decide if you get arrested; the cops decide that for you!). Someone is dead, and someone else is holding a smoking gun. That someone would be you. On camera, shooting a person who is not directly threatening you, in the back of the head. 8 witnesses. (Suddenly, it takes a different view, yes?) 2) Good guy brought downtown and booked. 2B) Bad guy brought to morgue. 3) $600 gun confiscated. 4) Good guy waits in jail while DA decides if the shooting was justifiable, or if he would rather go ahead and prosecute a slam dunk homicide to make himself look good for the upcoming election year. 5) Good guy is bankrupted trying to defend himself in front of 12 people that are neither his race, age, gender, or income level. (forget that silliness about how your jury has to be white males, gun owning, with a middle class income and education, that is not how juries are picked!). Wait, don't believe me? GO TO YOUR LOCAL COURTHOUSE and sit in on a few jury trials. They are open to the public. Now look at the defendant. Now look at the jury. Wow, what a shocker, eh? Looks like Ol' Worldmariner knows what he is talking about. 6) Jury of 7 black women (3 of whom are on welfare), 2 white women over the age of 61, 2 chronically unemployed white guys under 30, and a hispanic male day worker who was born in a different country, return a verdict of........................... Could go either way. DO YOU GET IT? Your "morals" have NOTHING to do with our justice system. That's nice that in the good old "Western Days, Western Ways" books it always works out for the good guy that did something that "needed doing", but dude, THINGS HAVE CHANGED! I urge you to consider the ramifications of shooting first in that situation...(unless the BG was pointing at YOU). Sorry for the sarcasm, but I have direct experience in this matter. Unless there are no witnesses or cameras, you really really do not want to be the first shooter unless the BG is pointing his gun directly at you (or your immediate family member).

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