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Usury | 03-05-2009 09:18 PM
Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo Anyone tried any of this? I just discovered it yesterday and order a couple boxes of 45 acp +P to try out. :banana:

igorthesmall | 03-05-2009 10:03 PM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo Its nothing special. It became "famous" because of some anti gunners saying it was some special ammo that is exceptionally deadly. Basically its just an earlier generation version of current hollowpoints. Winchester stopped making it because they didnt want to get sued by the Brady bunch. It has become much more expensive because of the myths associated with it. I would advise you to keep it and not shoot it. Its basically collector ammunition now. Also, I would NEVER load it for self defense purposes. In the event you shot someone with it, the attorneys would have a field day talking about how it was discontinued because it was so deadly, yada, yada, yada.

bwelkk | 03-05-2009 10:43 PM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by igorthesmall (Post 1609996) Winchester stopped making it because they didnt want to get sued by the Brady bunch.
Well, they pretty much just renamed it You can get a similar product in Winchester Ranger T now (look on the box for product code RA45T, instead of the older RA45SXT) Pic related, nasty stuff http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/P...s/image022.jpg

SilverCity | 03-05-2009 10:44 PM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Usury (Post 1609897) Anyone tried any of this? I just discovered it yesterday and order a couple boxes of 45 acp +P to try out. :banana:
Winchester Ranger "T" series ammo is the old Black Talon repackaged due to overhype by the media. It is excellent ammo in almost any caliber. I recently bought a case of it in 9mm 124 +P

CrufflerJJ | 03-06-2009 08:43 AM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 1610095) Winchester Ranger "T" series ammo is the old Black Talon repackaged due to overhype by the media. It is excellent ammo in almost any caliber. I recently bought a case of it in 9mm 124 +P
It's also a lot more politically correct in a touchy-feely sort of way. The bullets are nice shiny copper, with no eeeevil black coating on them. This makes them a lot more friendly, don't you think? It IS good ammo, and functions reliably in my pistols & carbines. Good stuff!

C&L 1911 | 03-06-2009 09:11 AM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo That's the only ammo I use for carry and self-defense, in all calibers. Very hard to find these days though.

Doge | 03-06-2009 12:20 PM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 1610095) Winchester Ranger "T" series ammo is the old Black Talon repackaged due to overhype by the media. It is excellent ammo in almost any caliber. I recently bought a case of it in 9mm 124 +P
"Ranger T" also just sounds friendlier than "Black Talon". Hard for the media to strike fear into people with a name like "Ranger". Smart marketing move by Winchester. Those have some nasty mushrooms on them.

koyaanisqatsi | 03-06-2009 01:03 PM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 1610095) Winchester Ranger "T" series ammo is the old Black Talon repackaged due to overhype by the media. It is excellent ammo in almost any caliber. I recently bought a case of it in 9mm 124 +P
... With handgun bullets, penetration and permanent cavity are the only mechanisms that can be relied upon to produce rapid incapacitation of a criminal attacker. The bullet must penetrate the attacker’s torso deeply enough to reach and crush a hole in critical blood bearing soft tissues, and produce rapid fatal hemorrhage. A bullet that expands to increase its diameter is able to contact and crush a greater area of tissue as it penetrates than a bullet which does not expand. This is the concept behind hollowpoint bullets ... ...Upon impact with flesh Ranger Talon performs identical to conventional hollowpoint bullets. However, as it penetrates and slows it does not suffer a decrease in effective bullet diameter. This is because tissue that stretches and flows around the smooth shoulder of the mushroom-shaped lead core comes into contact with the sharp copper jacket claws and is lacerated. :36_1_30: These lacerations contribute little to overall wound severity. However, if Ranger Talon happens to pass very close to a major cardiovascular structure, instead of merely shoving it aside as it passes by, one of the six claws might be in position to cut the wall of this structure to cause profuse bleeding. This additional cutting mechanism gives Ranger Talon the potential to be approximately 3% to 5% more effective than other expanding bullets of the same caliber. In one out of every 20-30 shootings, Ranger Talon might make a difference. In order for Ranger Talon's increased wounding potential to be realized, at least two conditions must be met: 1) the bullet's wound track must pass close enough to a major blood vessel to physically touch it, and 2) one of the talons must be in the right orientation to physically contact the wall of the blood vessel as the bullet rifles past. If one of these two conditions are not met, the wound will be no more severe than any other JHP expanding bullet. This very slight advantage could be just enough to save the life of a police officer who has to shoot a psychotic, enraged or chemically intoxicated attacker who is oblivious to being shot. The Black Talon bullet came under intense negative media scrutiny after it was criminally misused in a shooting rampage in a San Francisco office building in July 1993. Nine people were killed and six wounded by gunman Gian Luigi Ferri. The news media reported falsehoods that Black Talon's "razor sharp claws" created particularly ghastly, devastating and unsurvivable wounds. The forensic pathologist who performed the autopsies of the fatal shooting victims gave a detailed presentation about his findings at the 1994 IWBA Wound Ballistics Conference in Sacramento: "The 101 California Shooting: The Black Talon Bullet," Boyd Stevens, M.D., Medical Examiner, San Francisco, CA. He stated that the wound trauma produced by Black Talon was unremarkable, meaning the wounds were no different nor any more severe than wounds produced by typical JHP handgun bullets. Each of the victims incurred fatal injury because a bullet passed through a vital structure. Winchester designed the Ranger Talon with what they call a "reverse-taper" copper jacket. What this means is that the copper jacket on the Ranger Talon is thicker at the tip than at its base, and this is the opposite of conventional hollowpoint bullet designs. This thickness is necessary to provide stiffness to the talons after expansion so they remain in ideal position to cut tissue that flows around the mushroom skirt. Contrary to the pronouncements of gunwriter Ed Sanow, who claims that the Black Talon/Ranger SXT/Ranger Talon bullet slowly expands during its first 8 inches of penetration, the thick copper jacket requires the bullet to rapidly expand after impact when velocity is highest. Once the bullet begins to slow, the forces acting on the copper jacket and lead core which cause the bullet to deform, decrease. His absurd claim that this bullet gradually expands as it penetrates simply defies the laws of physics, and is based on fantasy. http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs2.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ I'm sure it's a good and very effective bullet. I myself would be concerned with potential civil liability from it's use. To a jury ONLY PERCEPTIONS COUNT and this bullet might be an ambulance chaser attorney's stuff of dreams. My state firemarms laws expressly forbid teflon coated bullets, the old black ones ... very scary to a jury concerned with a wounded or dead victim of your gun... I'll go with less notariety in common herd thinking, other good bullets may be cheaper to defend in court. :Surrender: This is how scary the 'black talon' once became ... teflon coated Black Talon's did this to the lawmaker's minds ... We know it's STILL A BLACK TALON without the fancy cooking pan finish... so do inquiring ambulance chasers. ------------------------------------------------------------ E. Teflon-Coated Bullets Pursuant to North Carolina General Statute � 14-34.3, it is unlawful for any person to import, manufacture, possess, store, transport, sell, offer to sell, purchase, offer to purchase, deliver or give to another, or acquire any Teflon-coated bullet. This prohibition does not apply to the following: 1. officers and soldiers of the United States Armed Forces, when in the discharge of their official duties; 2. officers and soldiers of the Militia, when being called into actual service; 3. officers of the state, or county, city or town, charged with the execution of laws of the state, when acting in the discharge of their official duties; 4. importers, manufacturers, and dealers validly licensed under the laws of the United States or the State of North Carolina who possess, for the purpose of sale to authorized law enforcement agencies only; and 5. inventors, designers, ordinance consultants and researchers, chemists, physicists, and other persons employed by or under contract with a manufacturing company engaged in making or doing research designed to enlarge knowledge of, or to facilitate the creation, development, or manufacture of more effective police-type body armor. http://www.grnc.org/firearms.htm

90%RealMoney | 03-06-2009 01:37 PM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan was the idiot who went on 60 minutes, and went on a tirade about the Black Talon bullets. I watched that episode, and promptly went down to the gun store the next day and bought their last two boxes of .45 Talons. I paid $19.99 per 20 round box I believe. Last time I saw some for sale, they wanted $50.00 per box. Moynihan is also the one who retired so Hillary could be shoe horned in to the Senate.

CrufflerJJ | 03-06-2009 02:23 PM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by koyaanisqatsi (Post 1611076) My state firemarms laws expressly forbid teflon coated bullets, the old black ones ... very scary to a jury concerned with a wounded or dead victim of your gun... [snip]teflon coated Black Talon's did this to the lawmaker's minds ... We know it's STILL A BLACK TALON without the fancy cooking pan finish... so do inquiring ambulance chasers.
The coating on Black Talon ammo is not Teflon - it's something called Lubalox. Lubalox is a black oxide coating, NOT Teflon. See: http://www.winchester.com/news/newsv...px?storyid=220 The only "Teflon coated" bullet I'm aware of was used in KTW ammo many moons ago. I think it was a Teflon coated steel or brass projectile.

koyaanisqatsi | 03-06-2009 02:52 PM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by CrufflerJJ (Post 1611220) The coating on Black Talon ammo is not Teflon - it's something called Lubalox. Lubalox is a black oxide coating, NOT Teflon. See: http://www.winchester.com/news/newsv...px?storyid=220 The only "Teflon coated" bullet I'm aware of was used in KTW ammo many moons ago. I think it was a Teflon coated steel or brass projectile.
Thanks CrufflerJJ, you're right. :ok: I'm learning about the details of this controversial and flaunted ammunition ... looking at Wiki's article: Controversy Black Talon hollow-point, 9mmThe ammunition was targeted by those opposed to handguns,[5] and the reputation was very different in the public,[6] and eventually the Talons became to be known by the moniker "cop-killer" bullets.[7] The hype of the Black Talon ammunition was the black coating on the bullets themselves. There were false rumors that the bullets were armor piercing and could penetrate the Kevlar vests worn by police officers.[8][9] To further the controversy, some medical personnel claimed that the sharp barb like tips could potentially cause tears in the surgical gloves and hands of the medical workers, exposing them to greater risk of infection,[1] however there are no documented reports of this actually happening.[10] The ammunition was used by the gunman of the 1993 Long Island Railroad mass murder. In 1996 a lawsuit was subsequently filed by one of the victim's family members (McCarthy v. Sturm, Ruger and Co., Inc., 916 F.Supp. 366 (S.D.N.Y., 1996)) claiming that Olin Corp. should be liable for the shooting spree based on the design, manufacture, marketing, and sale of Black Talon ammunition. The claims against Olin were dismissed because it was held that the bullets were not defectively designed.[11] Winchester bowed to pressure and in 1993 removed the ammunition from public sale for a time,[12] and eventually law enforcement also bowed to the pressure, but at no time was it, nor is it presently, illegal to possess the Black Talon ammunition. Current status Winchester voluntarily pulled the ammunition from the market completely in 2000. The �Ranger SXT� ammunition sold today by Winchester is very similar to the Black Talon without the black Lubalox coating on the bullet. Among shooters, the running joke is that SXT stands for �Same eXact Thing�. The correct phrase is �Supreme Expansion Technology�. However, there are significant differences in the anatomy of the bullets which becomes apparent when carefully examined side by side. The internal structure of the Black Talon�s hollow point is unique in that its petals are more massive at their tips, after expansion, than comparable bullets. This added mass provides superior expansion compared to most other hollow points including the �Ranger SXT�. This difference is obvious after firing into ballistic gelatin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon And yet I've had a guy or two show me their .40 cal magazines, proud to be carrying Black Talons, the "cop killer" bullet they say is now made illegal ... ooohhh... I believed them ... but I did not buy any at the high prices either. I'm learning still more now, thanks! :ok:

SilverCity | 03-06-2009 03:07 PM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo For the record, I don't own any evil "Black Talon". The box of Ranger "T" series says: "Law Enforcement Ammunition"...if anyone wants to challenge me on the use of evil bullets, go right ahead. If you are worried about the legal ramifications of using the "most effective" ammunition available in defending your loved ones, be sure and save one for yourself, so you won't have to go though the "pain and embarassment" of litigation. I have been telling people for over two years to buy the best quality ammunition, in as may calibers as they have, because the price will double or triple (it has) and availability will dry up. :censored:

hypervel | 03-06-2009 03:12 PM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo It's all in the name. Newscasters would have a hard time dispensing propaganda if a smart manufacturer sold the Cute Fluffy Bunny line of sporting AR-15 rifles and imported the Sweet Loveable Kitten line of AK-47s. The dumbass bubba gun buyer (as a type) would need to get over the "gun as manhood" model of self image and buy up Cute Fluffy Bunnies in droves. Think if BLACK TALON was named POLICE DEFENDER instead. "....and the shooter was using 9mm "Police Defender" ammunition in his "Cute Fluffy Bunny" eeeeeeeeeeeeevil black rifle." C'mon. It's all semantic big dick stuff.

CyberGold | 03-07-2009 10:01 PM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by CrufflerJJ (Post 1611220) The only "Teflon coated" bullet I'm aware of was used in KTW ammo many moons ago. I think it was a Teflon coated steel or brass projectile.
I have a box of Fiocci 45 caliber Teflon coated bullets - says its teflon coated on the box.

Ag_man | 03-07-2009 10:22 PM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by hypervel (Post 1611315) It's all in the name. Newscasters would have a hard time dispensing propaganda if a smart manufacturer sold the Cute Fluffy Bunny line of sporting AR-15 rifles and imported the Sweet Loveable Kitten line of AK-47s. The dumbass bubba gun buyer (as a type) would need to get over the "gun as manhood" model of self image and buy up Cute Fluffy Bunnies in droves. Think if BLACK TALON was named POLICE DEFENDER instead. "....and the shooter was using 9mm "Police Defender" ammunition in his "Cute Fluffy Bunny" eeeeeeeeeeeeevil black rifle." C'mon. It's all semantic big dick stuff.
Classic and so true! :emotions16:

CrufflerJJ | 03-07-2009 11:29 PM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberGold (Post 1613436) I have a box of Fiocci 45 caliber Teflon coated bullets - says its teflon coated on the box.
Neat! Is it a coated hollow point bullet, or something that looks like a FMJ? The KTW bullets had a hard penetrator core, coated with a decent thickness of teflon. Upon firing, the teflon would engage the barrel rifling & the hard core wouldn't damage the bore.

CrufflerJJ | 03-07-2009 11:41 PM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo 4 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by hypervel (Post 1611315) Newscasters would have a hard time dispensing propaganda if a smart manufacturer sold the Cute Fluffy Bunny line of sporting AR-15 rifles and imported the Sweet Loveable Kitten line of AK-47s.
See attached for the new line of Martha Stewart home claymore mine kits (in 6 designer colors), the Hello Kitty HK-47, the My Little Pony M4 carbine, and the Mother Theresa LAW rocket. Very sensitive/touchy-feely, if I might say so myself!

reformed wastrel | 03-08-2009 12:03 AM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by hypervel (Post 1611315) It's all in the name. Newscasters would have a hard time dispensing propaganda if a smart manufacturer sold the Cute Fluffy Bunny line of sporting AR-15 rifles and imported the Sweet Loveable Kitten line of AK-47s. The dumbass bubba gun buyer (as a type) would need to get over the "gun as manhood" model of self image and buy up Cute Fluffy Bunnies in droves. Think if BLACK TALON was named POLICE DEFENDER instead. "....and the shooter was using 9mm "Police Defender" ammunition in his "Cute Fluffy Bunny" eeeeeeeeeeeeevil black rifle." C'mon. It's all semantic big dick stuff.
No, then the gun manufacturers would be accused of using child-friendly names in order to entice children into illegally purchasing their eeeeeevil black rifles. Like the cigarette makers were accused of doing when they used cartoon-like drawings of a camel. No matter what you do, your enemies will twist it to try to use against you. Renaming the guns won't help. Besides, most of the media thinks everything is an AK-47 anyway.

Ag_man | 03-08-2009 12:15 AM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by reformed wastrel (Post 1613579) No matter what you do, your enemies will twist it to try to use against you. Renaming the guns won't help. Besides, most of the media thinks everything is an AK-47 anyway.
And full auto at that!

Willie Peter | 03-08-2009 01:49 AM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo Found a cool photo and cut-away view of the KTW here.... http://cartridgecollectors.org/cmo/cmo06dec.htm

Usury | 03-09-2009 01:04 AM
Re: Winchester Ranger Black Talon Ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by Ag_man (Post 1613592) And full auto at that!
No doubt...it pisses me off to no end whenever I hear some BS news story about how easy it is for just anyone to go buy a fully automatic machine gun at their local Gun-Mart....

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