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Madseacow | 07-07-2008 04:25 PM
What good can a handgun do against an Army? Thought I'd share Saturday, July 5, 2008 What good can a handgun do against an Army? By Mike Vanderboegh A friend of mine recently forwarded me a question a friend of his had posed: "If/when our Federal Government comes to pilfer, pillage, plunder our property and destroy our lives, what good can a handgun do against an army with advanced weaponry, tanks, missiles, planes, or whatever else they might have at their disposal to achieve their nefarious goals? (I'm not being facetious: I accept the possibility that what happened in Germany, or similar, could happen here; I'm just not sure that the potential good from an armed citizenry in such a situation outweighs the day-to-day problems caused by masses of idiots who own guns.)" If I may, I'd like to try to answer that question. I certainly do not think the writer facetious for asking it. The subject is a serious one that I have given much research and considerable thought to. I believe that upon the answer to this question depends the future of our Constitutional republic, our liberty and perhaps our lives. My friend Aaron Zelman, one of the founders of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership told me once: "If every Jewish and anti-nazi family in Germany had owned a Mauser rifle and twenty rounds of ammunition AND THE WILL TO USE IT (emphasis supplied, MV), Adolf Hitler would be a little-known footnote to the history of the Weimar Republic." - Aaron Zelman, JPFO Note well that phrase: "and the will to use it," for the simply-stated question, "What good can a handgun do against an army?", is in fact a complex one and must be answered at length and carefully. It is a military question. It is also a political question. But above all it is a moral question which strikes to the heart of what makes men free, and what makes them slaves. First, let's answer the military question. Most military questions have both a strategic and a tactical component. Let's consider the tactical. A friend of mine owns an instructive piece of history. It is a small, crude pistol, made out of sheet-metal stampings by the U.S. during World War II. While it fits in the palm of your hand and is a slowly-operated, single-shot arm, it's powerful .45 caliber projectile will kill a man with brutal efficiency. With a short, smooth-bore barrel it can reliably kill only at point blank ranges, so its use requires the will (brave or foolhardy) to get in close before firing. It is less a soldier's weapon than an assassin's tool. The U.S. manufactured them by the million during the war, not for our own forces but rather to be air-dropped behind German lines to resistance units in occupied Europe. Crude and slow (the fired case had to be knocked out of the breech by means of a little wooden dowel, a fresh round procured from the storage area in the grip and then manually reloaded and cocked) and so wildly inaccurate it couldn't hit the broad side of a French barn at 50 meters, to the Resistance man or woman who had no firearm it still looked pretty darn good. http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/h...olcal45ACP.jpg WWII Liberator Pistol cal. 45ACP The theory and practice of it was this: First, you approach a German sentry with your little pistol hidden in your coat pocket and, with Academy-award sincerity, ask him for a light for your cigarette (or the time the train leaves for Paris, or if he wants to buy some non-army-issue food or a half- hour with your "sister"). When he smiles and casts a nervous glance down the street to see where his Sergeant is at, you blow his brains out with your first and only shot, then take his rifle and ammunition. Your next few minutes are occupied with "getting out of Dodge," for such critters generally go around in packs. After that (assuming you evade your late benefactor's friends) you keep the rifle and hand your little pistol to a fellow Resistance fighter so they can go get their own rifle. Or maybe you then use your rifle to get a submachine gun from the Sergeant when he comes running. Perhaps you get very lucky and pickup a light machine gun, two boxes of ammunition and a haversack of hand grenades. With two of the grenades and the expenditure of a half-a-box of ammunition at a hasty roadblock the next night, you and your friends get a truck full of arms and ammunition. (Some of the cargo is sticky with "Boche" blood, but you don't mind terribly.) Pretty soon you've got the best armed little maquis unit in your part of France, all from that cheap little pistol and the guts to use it. (One wonders if the current political elite's opposition to so-called "Saturday Night Specials" doesn't come from some adopted racial memory of previous failed tyrants. Even cheap little pistols are a threat to oppressive regimes.) They called the pistol the "Liberator." Not a bad name, all in all. Now let's consider the strategic aspect of the question, "What good can a handgun do against an army....?" We have seen that even a poor pistol can make a great deal of difference to the military career and postwar plans of one enemy soldier. That's tactical. But consider what a million pistols, or a hundred million pistols (which may approach the actual number of handguns in the U.S. today), can mean to the military planner who seeks to carry out operations against a populace so armed. Mention "Afghanistan" or "Chechnya" to a member of the current Russian military hierarchy and watch them shudder at the bloody memories. Then you begin to get the idea that modern munitions, air superiority and overwhelming, precision-guided violence still are not enough to make victory certain when the targets are not sitting Christmas- present fashion out in the middle of the desert. "A billion here, a billion there, sooner or later it adds up to real money." --Everett Dirksen Consider that there are at least as many firearms-- handguns, rifles and shotguns-- as there are citizens of the United States. Consider that last year there were more than 14 million Americans who bought licenses to hunt deer in the country. 14 million-- that's a number greater than the largest five professional armies in the world combined. Consider also that those deer hunters are not only armed, but they own items of military utility-- everything from camouflage clothing to infrared "game finders", Global Positioning System devices and night vision scopes. Consider also that quite a few of these hunters are military veterans. Just as moving around in the woods and stalking game are second nature, military operations are no mystery to them, especially those who were on the receiving end of guerrilla war in Southeast Asia. Indeed, such men, aging though they may be, may be more psychologically prepared for the exigencies of civil war (for this is what we are talking about) than their younger active-duty brother-soldiers whose only military experience involved neatly defined enemies and fronts in the Grand Campaign against Saddam. Not since 1861-1865 has the American military attempted to wage a war athwart its own logistical tail (nor indeed has it ever had to use modern conventional munitions on the Main Streets of its own hometowns and through its relatives' backyards, nor has it tested the obedience of soldiers who took a very different oath with orders to kill their "rebellious" neighbors, but that touches on the political aspect of the question). But forget the psychological and political for a moment, and consider just the numbers. To paraphrase the Senator, "A million pistols here, a million rifles there, pretty soon you're talking serious firepower." No one, repeat, no one, will conquer America, from within or without, until its citizenry are disarmed. We remain, as a British officer had reason to complain at the start of our Revolution, "a people numerous and armed." The Second Amendment is a political issue today only because of the military reality that underlies it. Politicians who fear the people seek to disarm them. People who fear their government's intentions refuse to be disarmed. The Founders understood this. So, too, does every tyrant who ever lived. Liberty-loving Americans forget it at their peril. Until they do, American gunowners in the aggregate represent a strategic military fact and an impediment to foreign tyranny. They also represent the greatest political challenge to home-grown would-be tyrants. If the people cannot be forcibly disarmed against their will, then they must be persuaded to give up their arms voluntarily. This is the siren song of "gun control," which is to say "government control of all guns," although few self-respecting gun-grabbers would be quite so bold as to phrase it so honestly. Joseph Stalin, when informed after World War II that the Pope disapproved of Russian troops occupying Trieste, turned to his advisors and asked, "The Pope? The Pope? How many divisions does he have?" Dictators are unmoved by moral suasion. Fortunately, our Founders saw the wisdom of backing the First Amendment up with the Second. The "divisions" of the army of American constitutional liberty get into their cars and drive to work in this country every day to jobs that are hardly military in nature. Most of them are unmindful of the service they provide. Their arms depots may be found in innumerable closets, gunracks and gunsafes. READ THE REST AT: http://transsylvaniaphoenix.blogspot...inst-army.html

LiquidFactor | 07-07-2008 04:39 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Thanks for sharing . . . Went with my dad today to get a P239.

Caligula | 07-07-2008 04:46 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? That was a great article explaining why the founders wrote the 2nd Amendment. :emotions16:

GoldWampum | 07-07-2008 04:46 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Good article. Thanks for posting.

AZLiberty | 07-07-2008 08:42 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Those liberators are quite valuable these days, and can fetch upwards of $3500 at auction. And for the record, the ammo actually cost more than the pistol when manufactured.

Madseacow | 07-07-2008 09:21 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Quote:
Originally Posted by AZLiberty (Post 1180994) Those liberators are quite valuable these days, and can fetch upwards of $3500 at auction. And for the record, the ammo actually cost more than the pistol when manufactured.
also, a new one could be made in a shorter amount of time than it takes to reload.

buff01 | 07-07-2008 09:22 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? thanks again

Twisted Avatar | 07-07-2008 10:38 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? No one, repeat, no one, will conquer America, from within or without, until its citizenry are disarmed. +99999999999999999999999999999999999999. Which is why I pound this keyboard daily........ NEVER TURN IN YOUR GUNS............EVER....... THE DAY YOU DO IS THE DAY YOU AKNOWLEDGE A POWER HIGHER THAN YOUR GOD WHO GAVE YOU YOUR FREEDOMS!!! T

GoldRocks | 07-07-2008 11:00 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? God must belong to the NRA...

____hoot____ | 07-08-2008 12:05 AM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? I had an early experience with smoothbores. My first paid job was killing the birds that were raiding my grandfather's cherry orchards at the age of eight; 5 cents a bird. My tool was a Daisy model 25 pump BB gun. It was accurate out to about 60 feet and that was about the extent of it's killing range also on small birds, pidgions needed to be within about 45 feet to be taken out with a head shot[which it was very capable of doing at that distance]. Think it was generateing about 500-550 feet per second velocity[more than any of the lever BB guns]. Perhaps it was this relatively slow speed that made it have useable accuracy, it served me well if I eased in close useing cover on my targets.

buff01 | 07-08-2008 12:08 AM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldRocks (Post 1181221) God must belong to the NRA...
nope, the GOA :emotions16:

Saul Mine | 07-08-2008 02:44 AM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Scenarios always presume some set of restrictions. The example here concerns "army", which means the soldiers are very restricted. For instance the soldiers are not going to shoot you without a very good reason. Cops are not so restricted, and a scenario involving cops would be very different. Another scenario might involve emergency management officials, and that scenario would be downright unpredictable. How do you respond to some bureaucrat who commandeers your preps, knowing that force of law will be restored in a fairly short time, and no judge will punish him for stealing your stuff? The most important aspect of your preps is what is in your head. It's easy to murder soldiers of an occupying army, but most people would not have the fortitude to murder an oppressive official whose skin is the same color as theirs. In WWII it was found that a great many Americans would not shoot Germans just because they looked like real people. That was not a problem in other countries where people looked different. Americans also know in their hearts that even in the worst of times, law and order will soon be restored and they will likely be called to account for their deeds. It's safer to kill a bum downtown than to kill a commissioner in the wreckage of a flood.

extremist | 07-08-2008 05:00 AM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? The Liberator is a poor example here, since neither this nor any similar concept has ever panned out. Maybe small groups of fighters could use this for bootstrapping to better weapons, but I doubt the masses would be willing or able. Though it was put down, the Warsaw ghetto uprising showed that you don't need Liberators if even a few have the right mindset, as in many other cases of guerilla warfare against superior forces. Unfortunately, the Islamist struggle in Iraq and Afghanistan is one of the best modern examples, which an article of this type certainly wouldn't admit.

AceNZ | 07-08-2008 07:04 AM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1181328) Won't do any good if the owner doesn't have the guts to use it when necessary. Just my .02. Got what it takes? :bear_whistle:
No one can answer that completely until the time comes. All we know is what's in our hearts. In my case, this reminds me of that Mel Gibson movie, The Patriot. I'm generally a peaceful, get-along type person. But if someone hurt or seriously threatened my family, there's no limit to what I'm capable of doing in return.

Lonestar | 07-08-2008 10:20 AM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Ask the white farmers in Zimbabwe. They were armed but still many were killed ,beaten, raped, and run off there homes by Mugabes thugs. :mad_m:

specsaregood | 07-08-2008 10:31 AM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1181187) No one, repeat, no one, will conquer America, from within or without, until its citizenry are disarmed. T
Which is why they put this statue up inside our own borders, to mock us. http://www.ironwordranch.com/KnotRevo.jpg

wallew | 07-08-2008 12:46 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Quote:
Originally Posted by Saul Mine (Post 1181457) Scenarios always presume some set of restrictions. The example here concerns "army", which means the soldiers are very restricted. For instance the soldiers are not going to shoot you without a very good reason. Cops are not so restricted, and a scenario involving cops would be very different. Another scenario might involve emergency management officials, and that scenario would be downright unpredictable. How do you respond to some bureaucrat who commandeers your preps, knowing that force of law will be restored in a fairly short time, and no judge will punish him for stealing your stuff? The most important aspect of your preps is what is in your head. It's easy to murder soldiers of an occupying army, but most people would not have the fortitude to murder an oppressive official whose skin is the same color as theirs. In WWII it was found that a great many Americans would not shoot Germans just because they looked like real people. That was not a problem in other countries where people looked different. Americans also know in their hearts that even in the worst of times, law and order will soon be restored and they will likely be called to account for their deeds. It's safer to kill a bum downtown than to kill a commissioner in the wreckage of a flood.
I've high light two areas where you are incorrect. First one, the answer is simple. That politbuearit gets the same bullet in the head as anyone else. Then it's S3. And while you may THINK this was the case, apparently you don't know any AMERICAN WWII vets. My dad said they 'didn't look or act like us'. Sixty years later, he has mellowed a little bit. But still says "Agressors are agressors, regardless of WHAT they look like. They can even be your next door neighbor who's raiding your supplies. Will YOU allow that?" I won't. Also, it obvious that many here have NOT read 'Unintended Consequences'. Yeah it's a long and somewhat technical read. But very much worth it. Finally, did you see ANY LEO's entering into the neighborhoods that posted LARGE SIGNS that said, "You LOOT, WE SHOOT"? No, you did not. Nor were they STUPID enough to attempt to disarm them. YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY? Because in ANY BAD SITUATION, the 'rescue' folks (the ones who are disarming individuals, not groups) are pretty much cowards. Yeah, they can take down the 'old granny' with the even older revolver for 'everyone's safety'. But they are NOT stupid. They know if THEY go into a neighborhood that's armed to the teeth, THEY WILL SUFFER. And guess what? None of them wants to be the 'first guy down'. Finally, Iraq and Afghanistan. Every MAN over the age of about 15 OWNS a firearm. MOST of them either keep them at home, or carry them with them. When our guys first started attempting to disarm them, they kindly explained they were stealing their 'manhood' and they would no longer be able to go home and face their wife and explain how they had allowed this to happen. SO, if ANYONE thinks that the populace is UNARMED? You have NO CLUE of which you speak.

eat_beef | 07-08-2008 02:48 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonestar (Post 1181758) Ask the white farmers in Zimbabwe. They were armed but still many were killed ,beaten, raped, and run off there homes by Mugabes thugs. :mad_m:
This is false. First they disarmed the White Farmers (by means of registration, then ever escalating taxation), then the death/rape squads came in. Often on the same day as the farmer turned in his weapons. Does the registration/taxation thing sound familiar?

Silver Shield | 07-08-2008 03:53 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Great article... I was trained to improvise, adapt and overcome the enemy.

Twisted Avatar | 07-08-2008 04:16 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 1182146) This is false. First they disarmed the White Farmers (by means of registration, then ever escalating taxation), then the death/rape squads came in. Often on the same day as the farmer turned in his weapons. Does the registration/taxation thing sound familiar?
....................

mozkill | 07-08-2008 04:19 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? It'll get you killed.

Twisted Avatar | 07-08-2008 04:25 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Quote:
Originally Posted by AceNZ (Post 1181552) No one can answer that completely until the time comes. All we know is what's in our hearts. In my case, this reminds me of that Mel Gibson movie, The Patriot. I'm generally a peaceful, get-along type person. But if someone hurt or seriously threatened my family, there's no limit to what I'm capable of doing in return.
Very well said Ace........ which is why the line in sand for me is the day when to start a new gun"registration" with severe penalties.Confiscation/highly modified paper work/ threat of imprisonmet if I do not comply. When THAT starts....... I know we are in 11th hour. God will help those those who helps themsleves.....not to be armed is dereliction of duty to your family. T

momopanda | 07-08-2008 04:36 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Iffin someone were to get hold of my firearm,they will need to bludgeon me to death with it, cause it will be empty.:bear_whistle:

Twisted Avatar | 07-08-2008 05:28 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Quote:
Originally Posted by momopanda (Post 1182314) Iffin someone were to get hold of my firearm,they will need to bludgeon me to death with it, cause it will be empty.:bear_whistle:
Ha.ha .......... good one!!! Rules for a Gunfight Anonymous 1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns. 2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap - life is expensive. 3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss. 4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly. 5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.) 6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun. 7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived. 8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running. 9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel blows the powder from the flintlock of your musket." 10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty. 11. Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose. 12. Have a plan. 13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work. 14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible. 15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours. 16. Don't drop your guard. 17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees. 18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.) 19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH. 20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get. 21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. 22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one. 23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation. 24. Do not attend a gun fight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with anything smaller than "4". 25. You can't miss fast enough to win. T

AceNZ | 07-08-2008 10:37 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Quote:
Originally Posted by momopanda (Post 1182314) Iffin someone were to get hold of my firearm,they will need to bludgeon me to death with it, cause it will be empty.:bear_whistle:
Yet another reason to bring a knife to a gunfight. If someone gets close enough to grab your empty gun, it's a good idea to have other options.

Flinch | 07-09-2008 06:40 AM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Flinch says, thank you for sharing. Good article, maybe this wake up some sheeple . Flinches family come to US of A back in 1938. From Weimar Republic. Flinch remember Grandpa's stories.

Twisted Avatar | 07-09-2008 07:14 AM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Quote:
Originally Posted by Flinch (Post 1183145) Flinch says, thank you for sharing. Good article, maybe this wake up some sheeple . Flinches family come to US of A back in 1938. From Weimar Republic. Flinch remember Grandpa's stories.
HOLY SMOKES!!!!!! You had a family memeber that was a witness to weimar??? You must start a thread........ That is infomation that is too important to gloss over!!! T

Saul Mine | 07-09-2008 08:22 AM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Quote:
First one, the answer is simple. That politbuearit gets the same bullet in the head as anyone else. Then it's S3.
I finally figured it out: S3 = "Shoot, shovel, and shut up." I suggest you dig a hole in your yard. Make it big enough to hold a body. Make it six feet deep (so a dog can't smell the corpse). Time yourself. Now imagine having to do that when you are exhausted, and maybe can't find your shovel. And there are witnesses, either your neighbors or other officials. Officials seldom travel alone, and neighbors seldom share your dedication to justice. I think your plan is inadequate.

Squirrel Bait | 07-09-2008 01:09 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Quote:
Originally Posted by Flinch (Post 1183145) Flinch says, thank you for sharing. Good article, maybe this wake up some sheeple . Flinches family come to US of A back in 1938. From Weimar Republic. Flinch remember Grandpa's stories.
Flinch, I notice you have 8 posts. Welcome, to the website. This happens to be a very good line! sb

Iptuous | 07-09-2008 01:47 PM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Quote:
Originally Posted by Saul Mine (Post 1183235) I finally figured it out: S3 = "Shoot, shovel, and shut up." I suggest you dig a hole in your yard. Make it big enough to hold a body. Make it six feet deep (so a dog can't smell the corpse). Time yourself. Now imagine having to do that when you are exhausted, and maybe can't find your shovel. And there are witnesses, either your neighbors or other officials. Officials seldom travel alone, and neighbors seldom share your dedication to justice. I think your plan is inadequate.
Perhaps it's "shoot, saw, and ssooooooooeeeey!"

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alaskamonte | 07-12-2008 12:45 AM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1182382) Ha.ha .......... good one!!! Rules for a Gunfight Anonymous 1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns. 2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap - life is expensive. 3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss. 4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly. 5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.) 6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun. 7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived. 8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running. 9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel blows the powder from the flintlock of your musket." 10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty. 11. Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose. 12. Have a plan. 13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work. 14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible. 15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours. 16. Don't drop your guard. 17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees. 18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.) 19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH. 20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get. 21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. 22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one. 23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation. 24. Do not attend a gun fight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with anything smaller than "4". 25. You can't miss fast enough to win. T
Credit should be given the author IMHO, Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch

jrog100 | 07-12-2008 01:26 AM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? It'll probably fit nicely under your chin :)

____hoot____ | 07-14-2008 12:41 AM
Re: What good can a handgun do against an Army? keep them awake~~~~~~~~~I built my first one at the old age of 12, covertly in 8th grade metal shop. Not pretty, but it worked. Suggest that anyone that doubts that that can be done, watch the old Jimmy Stewart movie "Carbine Williams".

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