Gold & Silver Forum (http://goldismoney.info/forums/index.php)
- Firearms (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=159)
- - Gun safe question (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=326777)

Maddie | 11-30-2008 01:10 PM
Gun safe question My parents want a small bedside gunsafe for a home-defense handgun. My sister, her husband, and I are going to chip in to buy it for them for Christmas. My father has his heart set on one of the Gunvault biometric models. I thought I'd ask here about pros and cons or to see if anyone had any better suggestions. I've heard it takes an average of three tries to get the Gun Vault biometric safes to open, but it's better than what they're currently doing (storing the guns in a drawer at the other end of the house or up in a closet, with the ammo hidden in another room entirely). Not having a gun safe for the home-defense gun is out of the question. My two young nephews (4 and 6) spend a lot of time at Gramma and Grandpa's house, and they're both absolutely gun-obsessed, into everything, and the younger one doesn't mind well at all. (The oldest boy has already gone shooting with his dad and "learned" gun safety, but his brain hasn't really made the disconnect between reality and video games yet.)

Andy9999 | 11-30-2008 02:16 PM
Re: Gun safe question http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/c...?$main-Medium$ this what I would like to have approx 300$ at Cabel as

Jaxon | 11-30-2008 02:31 PM
Re: Gun safe question You might want to consider a box with a mechanical simplex-type lock. V-Line makes one: http://www.cabelas.com/prod-1/0027552223551a.shtml Here's another made by Amsec: http://www.thesafesource.com/mm5/mer...y_Code=Handgun

koyaanisqatsi | 11-30-2008 03:03 PM
Re: Gun safe question I had a Brinks 'HOME SECURITY' box, bought at Walmart for maybe $20 ... it was bolted to the floor and locked with a small key lock ... The burglar gang came in and got my 3 handguns out of it EASY, no problem. I was an IDIOT because I myself can pick the 3-pin key lock in maybe 5 seconds. I had made a lock-pick set out of a flattened nail and an old textile machine needle. I was too cheap to investigate a better safe... STUPID. I knew that but underestimated the skill of the burglars and the potential that I would be targeted in any case. I have no kids to consider but that worse-than-worthless Brink's 'Home Security' box was just a 'kid stuff' safe maybe. Now I have this ($79 delivered) model (shown below) bolted to a desktop : http://cgi.ebay.com/LARGE-Home-Offic...2%7C240%3A1318 http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/0/1...3282063_tp.jpg It's a nice safe IMO, the steel's not too thick, maybe 1/10th of an inch, but the lock is very good, it has a small motion detector alarm, and it's big enough to put a lot of goodies inside ... Learn from my STUPID mistakes... :confused_ma: But I'm happy with this new and better safe and like the value.

morganchaser | 12-02-2008 01:02 AM
Re: Gun safe question Quote:
Originally Posted by koyaanisqatsi (Post 1441344) I had a Brinks 'HOME SECURITY' box, bought at Walmart for maybe $20 ... it was bolted to the floor and locked with a small key lock ... The burglar gang came in and got my 3 handguns out of it EASY, no problem. I was an IDIOT because I myself can pick the 3-pin key lock in maybe 5 seconds. I had made a lock-pick set out of a flattened nail and an old textile machine needle. I was too cheap to investigate a better safe... STUPID. I knew that but underestimated the skill of the burglars and the potential that I would be targeted in any case. I have no kids to consider but that worse-than-worthless Brink's 'Home Security' box was just a 'kid stuff' safe maybe. Now I have this ($79 delivered) model (shown below) bolted to a desktop : http://cgi.ebay.com/LARGE-Home-Offic...2%7C240%3A1318 http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/0/1...3282063_tp.jpg It's a nice safe IMO, the steel's not too thick, maybe 1/10th of an inch, but the lock is very good, it has a small motion detector alarm, and it's big enough to put a lot of goodies inside ... Learn from my STUPID mistakes... :confused_ma: But I'm happy with this new and better safe and like the value.
The red and black wires on the interior of that safe lead to a small solenoid. Wack the safe with a rubber mallet to bounce the solenoid(probably on the top or on the left side) while rotating the handle. Takes some practice but you can probably figure it out based on the above information pretty quick. The plastic cover most likely can be popped off using a flathead screwdriver with either a mechanical lock bypass to the electronic lock, or a hole hidden underneath it, through which the red and black wires can be fished through and spiked with a 9v battery, if they aren't already leading straight to the keypad itself which is the case with all SENTRY electronic safes. Seriously just youtube "hotel safe cracking" or "TOOOL Electronic safe" to see what I'm talking about. Get a nice round door safe off of craigslist. Search term: "safe" once a day for a couple weeks until you see one for around $150-300. Should be UL listed TL-15 or TL-30 at the minimum. That's your cash safe. Bed side handgun is a personal choice, but in a perfect world: you should have a PIR motion sensor with a siren(or a dog) covering the hallway to your bed room.(at the least) Your bedroom door should be replaced with a solid wood or metal door with a reinforced frame, and should be locked when you go to sleep. Locksmith can walk you through upgrading your bed room door if you decide to do so. Not trying to rain on your parade. You're happy with it and I don't want to piss on that, but when a burglar see's a safe it get's 100 percent of his attention, and these cheap electronic safe's just can't stand up to that. They give a false sense of security. I hate seeing people compromising on security when it's worth so much and it's a 1 time expense to do properly.

igorthesmall | 12-02-2008 07:58 AM
Re: Gun safe question Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1444131) The red and black wires on the interior of that safe lead to a small solenoid. Wack the safe with a rubber mallet to bounce the solenoid(probably on the top or on the left side) while rotating the handle. Takes some practice but you can probably figure it out based on the above information pretty quick. The plastic cover most likely can be popped off using a flathead screwdriver with either a mechanical lock bypass to the electronic lock, or a hole hidden underneath it, through which the red and black wires can be fished through and spiked with a 9v battery, if they aren't already leading straight to the keypad itself which is the case with all SENTRY electronic safes. Seriously just youtube "hotel safe cracking" or "TOOOL Electronic safe" to see what I'm talking about. Get a nice round door safe off of craigslist. Search term: "safe" once a day for a couple weeks until you see one for around $150-300. Should be UL listed TL-15 or TL-30 at the minimum. That's your cash safe. Bed side handgun is a personal choice, but in a perfect world: you should have a PIR motion sensor with a siren(or a dog) covering the hallway to your bed room.(at the least) Your bedroom door should be replaced with a solid wood or metal door with a reinforced frame, and should be locked when you go to sleep. Locksmith can walk you through upgrading your bed room door if you decide to do so. Not trying to rain on your parade. You're happy with it and I don't want to piss on that, but when a burglar see's a safe it get's 100 percent of his attention, and these cheap electronic safe's just can't stand up to that. They give a false sense of security. I hate seeing people compromising on security when it's worth so much and it's a 1 time expense to do properly.
Wouldnt that siren go off every morning when I walked out my bedroom door? Just curious how I would set that up. Thanks!

George Spelvin | 12-02-2008 08:04 AM
Re: Gun safe question Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeNM (Post 1444174) What a kill-joy! Maybe if guys like you kept this information to yourself the rest of us would be a little safer from the bad guys! Why did you feel it necessary to share this information? No one asked how to defeat this safe...
Ignorance is bliss, right? C'mon...I looked at the posted picture and knew it was a piece of crap in about 1 second. You need to ask yourself, "Am I protecting my handgun from little hands or from burglars?" There are two very different levels of protection there.

shortstack | 12-02-2008 12:38 PM
Re: Gun safe question Great post Morganchaser. Info given with no insults to other GIM posters - plus one for that. I also like your TL-15 or TL-30 recommendation. In looking for a home safe, I spoke with a local locksmith with 30 years experience. I was told that a gun safe is great, but can be drilled by a determied thief. They do many installations in multi-million dollar homes and say the same thing. Money and PM's are not 100% protected in a gun safe, like the browing series: http://www.browning.com/products/cat...asp?catalog_=F These are the ones that can be drilled (thief would need training, time, and the proper drill bits and tools) - drilling would take 2 to 4 hours for these. The AMSEC line is your best bet for cash and PM's. These, according to my local locksmith, could be cracked (as all safes can) but he claims only about 10 guys on the east coast could do this, and the process would take about 6 to 10 hours. He warned that if a small child was locked in a top of the line Amsec, and there was no way to open the safe from the interior, then suffication could be the outcome as it would take even him a long time to crack an AMSEC. http://www.amsecusa.com/composite-safe-am-vault.htm Another issue is weight. A "light" enough safe (100 to 600 pounds) can simply be pushed/carried/dragged to the front door and then hoisted onto a waiting truck, to be cracked later in a secure location. Bolting the safe to a concrete floor is the only way to prevent this. If the safe is above 600 pounds, it becomes difficult to move hoist without lots of time and specialized equipment.

Worldmariner | 12-02-2008 12:44 PM
Re: Gun safe question Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddie (Post 1441168) Not having a gun safe for the home-defense gun is out of the question. My two young nephews (4 and 6) spend a lot of time at Gramma and Grandpa's house, and they're both absolutely gun-obsessed, into everything, and the younger one doesn't mind well at all. (The oldest boy has already gone shooting with his dad and "learned" gun safety, but his brain hasn't really made the disconnect between reality and video games yet.)
So, what is the goal? Prevention of little fingers, or, securing the guns from burglers? Beofre you can pick a safe, you need to answer that question.

shortstack | 12-02-2008 12:45 PM
Re: Gun safe question Quote:
Originally Posted by igorthesmall (Post 1444388) Wouldnt that siren go off every morning when I walked out my bedroom door? Just curious how I would set that up. Thanks!
Your home security system would be armed by you at night. If you walk out of your bedroom and trip the motion sensor, you would have 30 seconds to 1 minute to make it to the keypad/control unit and deactivate the alarm. You set the alarm for silent (slight beeps but nothing loud) for the first minute, then if you do not de-activate in that time, then the alarm shrills at full volume. Or you can set up an alarm keypad inside your bedroom and have zero delay - this would give you the max warning time if someone broke in at night. Problem is that if you forget to disarm, and walk out of your bedroom in the middle of the night, the alarm will be waking up the neighbors as well as your wife...

platinumdude | 12-02-2008 12:45 PM
Re: Gun safe question Quote:
Originally Posted by shortstack (Post 1444824) Another issue is weight. A "light" enough safe (100 to 600 pounds) can simply be pushed/carried/dragged to the front door and then hoisted onto a waiting truck, to be cracked later in a secure location. Bolting the safe to a concrete floor is the only way to prevent this. If the safe is above 600 pounds, it becomes difficult to move hoist without lots of time and specialized equipment.
I guess having it in a basement would make it much harder. Also if one has a good alarm where they can't cut the phone line, You wouldn't need a safe that takes hours to crack.

SLV>GLD | 12-02-2008 12:47 PM
Re: Gun safe question Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1444131) when a burglar see's a safe it get's 100 percent of his attention, and these cheap electronic safe's just can't stand up to that. They give a false sense of security. I hate seeing people compromising on security when it's worth so much and it's a 1 time expense to do properly.
Precisely why I keep a couple fire-safe safes with nothing but documents contained within. I keep them stashed in easy to find but appears concealed places like closets. The idea is for the burglar to take the safe or spend his time trying to break it open. Why are you folks locking up your bedside weapon anyways? Don't you want that at immediate ready at all times (minus the kid angle, already)?

Worldmariner | 12-02-2008 12:47 PM
Re: Gun safe question Quote:
Originally Posted by shortstack (Post 1444824) Great post Morganchaser. Info given with no insults to other GIM posters - plus one for that. I also like your TL-15 or TL-30 recommendation. In looking for a home safe, I spoke with a local locksmith with 30 years experience. I was told that a gun safe is great, but can be drilled by a determied thief. They do many installations in multi-million dollar homes and say the same thing. Money and PM's are not 100% protected in a gun safe, like the browing series: http://www.browning.com/products/cat...asp?catalog_=F These are the ones that can be drilled (thief would need training, time, and the proper drill bits and tools) - drilling would take 2 to 4 hours for these. The AMSEC line is your best bet for cash and PM's. These, according to my local locksmith, could be cracked (as all safes can) but he claims only about 10 guys on the east coast could do this, and the process would take about 6 to 10 hours. He warned that if a small child was locked in a top of the line Amsec, and there was no way to open the safe from the interior, then suffication could be the outcome as it would take even him a long time to crack an AMSEC. http://www.amsecusa.com/composite-safe-am-vault.htm Another issue is weight. A "light" enough safe (100 to 600 pounds) can simply be pushed/carried/dragged to the front door and then hoisted onto a waiting truck, to be cracked later in a secure location. Bolting the safe to a concrete floor is the only way to prevent this. If the safe is above 600 pounds, it becomes difficult to move hoist without lots of time and specialized equipment.
I have a friend that uses a Fort Knox vault that weights 1865 pounds. Fire/tamper resistant. A REAL safe cracker can defeat the box, but at the end of the day, how much time will it take someone to get into the vault. It is too heavy to haul away, so that means th ecracker will need to be in the house for a L O N G time.

shortstack | 12-02-2008 12:50 PM
Re: Gun safe question I hear you on the basement. Problem is getting a 1,000 pound plus (the Amsec full size safes weigh in at 3,000 pounds plus) safe installed in your basement. My locksmith said that not all homes have stairs that can bear the weight of a 1,000 pound plus safe. Even 600 pounds is too much for some staircases he said. Point taken. If you have a good study staircase going to the basement, then carrying/winching a safe back UP those stairs would be impossible without taking all day. Put a big enough safe in the basement, and you may have to include the safe as part of the house when you sell iyour home...

SLV>GLD | 12-02-2008 01:01 PM
Re: Gun safe question Quote:
Originally Posted by shortstack (Post 1444860) Put a big enough safe in the basement, and you may have to include the safe as part of the house when you sell iyour home...
The safe should contribute 100% of it's retail value to the value of your home. I cannot imagine any potential buyer not being elated to have a huge safe in a good location. The only issue would be procuring/installing a new safe at your new digs.

graspAU | 12-02-2008 01:03 PM
Re: Gun safe question 2 Attachment(s) I wish I could afford a Graffunder.

koyaanisqatsi | 12-02-2008 03:04 PM
Re: Gun safe question At some point in evaluating security needs, one comes to diminishing returns. I'm a bachelor who rents a room in a 100-year old house belonging to a friend of mine. My ebay electronic safe contains no more that $2500 in value of pistols, PMs and cash at any time. This 4- story 15-room house is never unoccupied, lots of parties going on here. My situation is very different from some of you here. I can't bolt my safe to the floor, only a desk. I cannot own or could not justify such massive safes as many show here. I was just trying to help the folks here get something to keep a handgun in that is away from the kids and to slow down the type of burglars that robbed me before, considered a 'youth gang' by police and not true cat burglars. Someone I know has a quantity of ebay FeO3+Al thermite ... he's saving it for teotwawki ... and safe 'cracking' perhaps in that bitter end. Invulnerability takes resources away from other resources, even then it is but a goal to be sought but never to be achieved totally. Thermite could offer a good ROI if the SHTF bigtime.

SLV>GLD | 12-02-2008 03:59 PM
Re: Gun safe question Thermite is very difficult to work with. By work with I mean open a safe without destroying the contents in the process. By difficult I mean it can be done but practice is in order as well as a good deal of personal protective equipment.

koyaanisqatsi | 12-02-2008 04:27 PM
Re: Gun safe question SLV, I agree... and I know the thermite to be primarily a destructive method of neutralizing equipment and machinery. (or just some very fun fireworks) I was having fun with the idea of safe cracking here, but I know it would at best make a small hole resulting in the dripping molten iron destroying almost anything inside anyway, as well as perhaps only welding the safe shut. I was just talking about how something meager can defeat the 'large and invulnerable', just as in asymetrical warfare, but mine here are mostly rhetorical thoughts expressed. We agree on the utility of thermite and various safes in general.

blueice | 12-02-2008 04:29 PM
Re: Gun safe question Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1444131) Bed side handgun is a personal choice, but in a perfect world: you should have a PIR motion sensor with a siren(or a dog) covering the hallway to your bed room.(at the least) Your bedroom door should be replaced with a solid wood or metal door with a reinforced frame, and should be locked when you go to sleep. Locksmith can walk you through upgrading your bed room door if you decide to do so.
Some of the best advice I have ever heard hear on GIMxo, Morganchaser!:adore::adore::adore:

EireGoBragh | 12-02-2008 04:42 PM
Re: Gun safe question Quote:
Originally Posted by koyaanisqatsi (Post 1445210) SLV, I agree... and I know the thermite to be primarily a destructive method of neutralizing equipment and machinery. (or just some very fun fireworks) I was having fun with the idea of safe cracking here, but I know it would at best make a small hole resulting in the dripping molten iron destroying almost anything inside anyway, as well as perhaps only welding the safe shut. I was just talking about how something meager can defeat the 'large and invulnerable', just as in asymetrical warfare, but mine here are mostly rhetorical thoughts expressed. We agree on the utility of thermite and various safes in general.
Let alone you'd probably end up burning down the house if you use thermite inside a structure

Stand Watie | 12-03-2008 01:00 PM
Re: Gun safe question Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 1444845) Precisely why I keep a couple fire-safe safes with nothing but documents contained within. I keep them stashed in easy to find but appears concealed places like closets. The idea is for the burglar to take the safe or spend his time trying to break it open.
Or they break in (taking a few minor things to make it look like amateurs) then come back a month later with the right tools and crack your real safe.

platinumdude | 12-03-2008 01:56 PM
Re: Gun safe question Get a house alarm with the phone line buried under a concrete walkway.

mtnman | 12-04-2008 11:05 AM
Re: Gun safe question Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy9999 (Post 1441277) http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/c...?$main-Medium$ this what I would like to have approx 300$ at Cabel as
This is the way to go if you need a safe. Easy to open in a hurry, in the dark!

morganchaser | 12-06-2008 11:20 AM
Re: Gun safe question Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 1448927) This is the way to go if you need a safe. Easy to open in a hurry, in the dark!
I've always liked the pictured safe, though ideally the safe would be open at night and closed during the day. A keyed lock with the key inserted has a similar effect. I am a little concerned about the reliability of the biometric lock, so if you do end up going with it, please give a review on reliability. If it doesn't work 100% of the time, a keyed lock, with the key inserted at night might be the best option. Be warned though, biometric locks are not secure against sophisticated attacks. Plan A should still be to keep unauthorized people out of the bedroom. If you're worried about a bad guy taking a gun off your night stand while you sleep, it won't do you much good either at that point. You can find a similar gun safe with a keyed lock on ebay. They are cheap enough that you could get one of each. The keyed lock retrofitted with something from bayarealocks.com is probably the more secure solution for day time storage, although unless you use a 1000 pound steel night stand, worrying about the lock is kinda a moot point. The following is a private message I wrote in regards to best value gun safe: Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser Gun Safes are tricky. It's very expensive to make a container that is big enough to store guns, and truly secure. Just about all the "gun safes" I have seen looked essentially no better than any other. Once the lock is up to par (the lock should be a group 2 S&G or better, I like group 1 manipulation proof locks.) the more expensive fire safes are just paying more money for a couple of relockers in the door. Since no skilled criminal steals guns from homeowners for profit, relockers aren't really worth the bigger price tag in my opinion. I mean, you do get a little bit more for you money; Better fire proofing, thicker sheet metal, ect. But they are still fire safes, which as a rule take roughly 30 minutes to open without power tools. Around 5 with a cutoff wheel. Then there's the question of do you want a secure gun safe. Guns aren't like cash or PMs. They are essentially registered to their owners through the ATF paperwork, and a stolen gun has a decent chance of making it's way back to it's owner. Since only baboons steal guns, making the safe difficult to open does not bode well for the safety of the guns. If you ever get them back, it would be nice if they didn't have burn damage, or abrasive cutoff grinds in them. My personal recommendation for a gun safe, is http://www.citysafe.com/ and if money is no object: a homemade vault using a high quality concrete mixture, relockers, and good steel reinforcements(blackbag.nl has a video in one of the blogs of an interview with a company called "city safe" which is good inspiration for concrete safes.) That's my personal preference, but probably the best idea, is to rent a diamond saw, cut a rectangle out of the floor of the basement or garage, remove the resulting plug with a sledgehammer, chisel at the walls so they are sloped with the vanishing point being towards the sky, Weld a couple hundred braided steel cables with washers dangling from them to the tub so that it looks like a depth charge,(you can buy something similar called a "nut" from rock climbing supplier) pour concrete to set a seamless stainless steel tub in to that cutout, Make/have a vault door made for it. I don't know how much a city safe costs but probably too much, which leads to the next option: a tamper resistant gun cabinet. Safe the money from a fire safe, buy a gun cabinet,($50 or so on CL) ideally welded assembly, change the lock to a Abloy Protec,(bayarealocks.com) and put the left over money in to an alarm system. Now here's the fun part. Take a couple hundred dollars in 100 dollar bills and soak them in a starch solution. Keep this stack of bills in your gun cabinet. If you are ever robbed, the baboon will take the cash, try and spend it, and the starch in the money will set off the counterfeit detect pens that stores use. If you are robbed, tell the cops the money in your safe was not counterfeit but was chemically treated to set off those pens and that the next time they get called to investigate counterfeit bills, that's the perp. (Alot of good things to be said about the electronic locks made by Kaba-Mass or Mass-Hamilton. X-07, X-08, X-09, Auditcon, all are good electronic locks. (ebay) I like Mosler's group 1 locks(ebay) as far as mechanical locks are concerned.)
I live in oregon and am unaffiliated with bayarealocks or city safe in any way. They are both just good outfits that I recommend highly without hesitation. Since I talked so much trash about fire safes it should be noted that drywall has a similar effect as the fire brick in fire safes. Drywall can be used to up the fire resistance of a security safe, to offset the "oven" effect. If fire and security are both critical, a composite safe UL listed for both is probably the way to go. It's worth noting that alarms and safes can reduce homeowners insurance. Worth calling a representative about.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:18 AM. |

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright = None use it and Link to GIM