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amelia | 10-23-2008 09:19 PM
Need advice on ammunition for shotgun I would appreciate any advice from those experienced in the use of shotguns regarding the kind of ammunition that should buy for a Rem. 570 shotgun. I will be relying upon the gun in a rural setting for self-protection against both two-legged and four-legged predators. As far as animals go, I will be encountering primarily coyote and cougar, and maybe an occasional black bear. Knowing that I could be confronting any one of those threats at any time, what kind of ammunition would you keep loaded in the shotgun? What other kinds of ammunition will I need? Thanks in advance! Edit: 870! Sorry!

Fullpower | 10-23-2008 09:33 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Hello Amelia. I presume you are speaking of a Rem 870 shotgun, in 12 gauge? get a good selection of regular inexpensive "rifled slugs" and several varieties of 00 or 000 buckshot loads. I recommend the 2-3/4 inch size. the longer 3 inch magnums are pretty heavy on recoil, and not really worth the loss in magazine capacity. practice shooting a lot in backyard, or wherever is convenient. PRACTICE is the MOST important part of firearm ownership, and deployment. Enjoy the shotgun, it is a force to be reckoned with.

____hoot____ | 10-24-2008 12:09 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun hummmmmm, LOTS

buff01 | 10-24-2008 01:32 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun If it's a 12 gauge, head down to walmart and get the mega pack of birdshot. This will work on any varmint targets. Then head to your local gun store and get a few boxes of 00 buck as well. (for human size or bigger targets)

Dr. Doom | 10-24-2008 02:17 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun I agree w/ Wildcard, 12 Ga. Federal LE Tactical Low Recoil 9 pell. OO Buck is good stuff :bear_thumb:

amelia | 10-24-2008 08:32 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Thanks, guys. Sounds like 00 buckshot might be the thing to keep in the shotgun. Is there anything that it would NOT take care of?

Tn...Andy | 10-24-2008 08:44 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Probably wouldn't stop a Grizzly bear with one round, but would sure give it something to think about. 12ga 2 3/4" 00Buck contains 9-12 pellets nearly .30 cal in size.....which is like firing a small pistol 6-8 times all at once.....the mass effect alone will stop most anything if you get a center hit......and the number of pellets gives you the advantage of number where at least SOME will hit if the target is farther out. I would take the 00buck over a rifled slug for defense.

jrog100 | 10-24-2008 09:08 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by amelia (Post 1375338) I would appreciate any advice from those experienced in the use of shotguns regarding the kind of ammunition that should buy for a Rem. 570 shotgun. I will be relying upon the gun in a rural setting for self-protection against both two-legged and four-legged predators. As far as animals go, I will be encountering primarily coyote and cougar, and maybe an occasional black bear. Knowing that I could be confronting any one of those threats at any time, what kind of ammunition would you keep loaded in the shotgun? What other kinds of ammunition will I need? Thanks in advance! Edit: 870! Sorry!
Go to walmart and get some bird shot or small game (6 shot) ammo. It's cheap and effective. Then buy some 00 Buck for the home and maybe a box of slugs for whatever. You don't need 3" magnums. Not necessary for your intended purposes.

jrog100 | 10-24-2008 09:10 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by amelia (Post 1376058) Thanks, guys. Sounds like 00 buckshot might be the thing to keep in the shotgun. Is there anything that it would NOT take care of?
Nope, not at close range in North America.

diogenes | 10-24-2008 09:11 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun No. 4 Buck, though harder to find is the best for your situation IMHO. More pellets, and will take anything on two to four legs. It will cover a larger area (spread) and increase your chances of a hit. I concentrate on slugs, #4 Buck and #6 shot. I feel this will cover everything I need a shotgun for.

Twisted Avatar | 10-24-2008 09:13 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Thanks for that discription Andy ......... that helps me quatify alot of things I have a question though.........What dose "rifled slugs" mean?? Also from your discription 00 will put down any person mighty quick but if using this inside your house it will surley blow nice size holes inside the walls after the attcker has been subsuded. What do you recomend for inside(close quarters) the house?? T

Heimdhal | 10-24-2008 09:18 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1376139) What do you recomend for inside(close quarters) the house?? T
Shooting them on the porch :36_1_34: :111:

foolsgold | 10-24-2008 09:25 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun I have target loads, low brass, which is also bird shot, small lead pellets. they will take down anyone, not wearing kevlar, in the house. Here's a picture showing them next to high brass 00 buck shot which are 3 inch magnums. The target loads are 2 3/4 inches. Note: I'm 6 ft 230 lbs the high brass buck shot knocks me back when I shoot it. http://goldismoney.info/forums/pictu...&pictureid=257

Tn...Andy | 10-24-2008 09:27 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun TA: A rifled slug is a single "bullet" in a shotgun shell. Extreme knockdown power at short range due to the size of the slug.....for example, a typical 12ga slug is 1 ounce in weight....that is 437.5 grains. Compare that to a 'heavy' pistol round like a 9mm 147 grain hollow point or .45 cal 200 grain bullet, and you see the difference. As a general rule, more mass in a bullet = more knock down power. Inside a house, I'd probably go with a lighter, less penetrating pellet.....something like a #4 or #6, or maybe even 7 1/2 birdshot.....IF I was worried about penetration harming friendly folks. I don't.....I keep 00buck in my "behind the bedroom door" Mossberg.....because the only friendly in my house sleeps next to me....anyone else doesn't belong there and is fair game. Edit: As foolsgold says, a light game load at close range is pretty devastating....anyone in a room sized environment taking a load of it is in a world of hurt. Once you get out 25-30 yds, penetration goes way down....still enough to knock down a bird or squirrel + you get the wider spread to hit something in flight, which is what the round is designed to do....but still pretty effective in close quarters to non-armored combatants.

Twisted Avatar | 10-24-2008 09:31 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Thanks A. Much appreciated. T

foolsgold | 10-24-2008 09:56 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun TA.. to expound upon Andy's answer.... A rifled slug is shot from a rifled barrel and buckshot or birdshot is shot from a smooth bore barrel. My 870 hunting configuration came with both barrel types see it here.. http://www.remington.com/products/fi...gnum_combo.asp I keep my shorter rifled barrel on in the house loaded with birdshot, so you can shoot birdshot through a rifled barrel. I don't know about slugs through a smooth bore barrel.

SWRichmond | 10-24-2008 10:08 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun 1 Attachment(s) http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=303581

Twisted Avatar | 10-24-2008 10:15 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by foolsgold (Post 1376232) TA.. to expound upon Andy's answer.... A rifled slug is shot from a rifled barrel and buckshot or birdshot is shot from a smooth bore barrel. My 870 hunting configuration came with both barrel types see it here.. http://www.remington.com/products/fi...gnum_combo.asp I keep my shorter rifled barrel on in the house loaded with birdshot, so you can shoot birdshot through a rifled barrel. I don't know about slugs through a smooth bore barrel.
I have this one!! But mines came with the long barrel only. T

foolsgold | 10-24-2008 10:22 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1376257) I have this one!! But mines came with the long barrel only. T
It's the 26 inch smooth bore. Go with the tactical recommended by SWRichmond or something like a #4 or #6, or maybe even 7 1/2 birdshot recommended by TNAndy. You really don't need slugs....but the short barrel is more maneuverable in the house.

foolsgold | 10-24-2008 10:24 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by J in AZ (Post 1376271) Please correct me if I am wrong but isn't a rifled slug designed for use in smooth bore barrels? I think they have rifling formed into the lead slug. For rifled barrels a smooth slug is used.
You might be right...I'm no firearms expert. Someone who knows for sure please pipe up!

Dr. Doom | 10-24-2008 04:29 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by amelia (Post 1376058) Thanks, guys. Sounds like 00 buckshot might be the thing to keep in the shotgun. Is there anything that it would NOT take care of?
Yes, anything wearing body armor.

ruprick | 10-24-2008 05:19 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by J in AZ (Post 1376271) Please correct me if I am wrong but isn't a rifled slug designed for use in smooth bore barrels? I think they have rifling formed into the lead slug. For rifled barrels a smooth slug is used.
100% correct. In fact, do not fire rifled slugs from rifled barrels (lots of leading issues). You can shoot buck shot in rifled barrels....just puts a spin on the wad cup.

Armed.peasant | 10-24-2008 05:36 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun here is some good Info. on rifled slug. http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm 00 Buck is in my 12 gauge, like Andy said, it gives you a little room for error if you are a little off target. I have seen several people shot with 00 Buck and they all were dead.

Twisted Avatar | 10-24-2008 06:14 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun I just went to range today and fired my Remmington 870. Sweet Jesus ..........the recoil on the birdshot almost knocked me back and the 00 buck I felt like my shouder was going to come off ( I used my sweat shirt for a impact buffer) I had a box of rifled slugs with 5 rounds ....I only fired ONE .........the kick was THAT strong. My opinion: Birdshot is more than enough to subdue anybody T

LukeNM | 10-24-2008 08:39 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1377169) I just went to range today and fired my Remmington 870. Sweet Jesus ..........the recoil on the birdshot almost knocked me back and the 00 buck I felt like my shouder was going to come off ( I used my sweat shirt for a impact buffer) I had a box of rifled slugs with 5 rounds ....I only fired ONE .........the kick was THAT strong.T
That is why I have been considering one of these... http://www.knoxx.com/products/SpecOps_Stock.php

ruprick | 10-24-2008 08:49 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1377169) I just went to range today and fired my Remmington 870. Sweet Jesus ..........the recoil on the birdshot almost knocked me back and the 00 buck I felt like my shouder was going to come off ( I used my sweat shirt for a impact buffer) I had a box of rifled slugs with 5 rounds ....I only fired ONE .........the kick was THAT strong. My opinion: Birdshot is more than enough to subdue anybody T
TA - I shot some serious rifles and a lot of slugs.....up until last year when I discovered Remington Buckhammer Slugs......my god - they are the most powerful slugs I've ever fired....buy a box of 5 just for the experience....I calculated the recoil energy......the only production cartridges by Winchester or Remington that will have more recoil are the 416 Rem and 458 Win Mag. The Buckhammers are amazing....like a little howitzer....you feel the concushion on your face and there is a ball of flame that roars out .....the first time I shot it...I thought I broke the gun...a Remington 870 with a rifled barrel. Destroyed a deer at 100 yards. Great load for a 12 ga shotgun.

Lackluster | 10-24-2008 09:09 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1377169) I just went to range today and fired my Remmington 870. Sweet Jesus ..........the recoil on the birdshot almost knocked me back and the 00 buck I felt like my shouder was going to come off ( I used my sweat shirt for a impact buffer) I had a box of rifled slugs with 5 rounds ....I only fired ONE .........the kick was THAT strong. My opinion: Birdshot is more than enough to subdue anybody T
Geez Loiuse! Ten thousand posts from you going on and on about 'hollowpoint this' and 'cold dead fingers that,' and you're only now getting around to shooting some buckshot for the first time? :RockOn:

foolsgold | 10-24-2008 10:48 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1377169) I just went to range today and fired my Remmington 870. Sweet Jesus ..........the recoil on the birdshot almost knocked me back and the 00 buck I felt like my shouder was going to come off ( I used my sweat shirt for a impact buffer) I had a box of rifled slugs with 5 rounds ....I only fired ONE .........the kick was THAT strong. My opinion: Birdshot is more than enough to subdue anybody T
TA my experience is nearly exact and I got a "kick" out of your remarks. My first time shooting the 870 I went to a range with a box of 25 #8 target loads then bought 5 Remington Buckhammer Slugs. I am not small or soft and damn buckhammers knocked me back and left a mark. I must admit my home protection rounds are the 00 buck magnums pictured, like wildcard said with my adrenaline pumping I'll absorb the kick. If I'm still around to pick up the pieces I will repair the walls. http://goldismoney.info/forums/pictu...&pictureid=270

Saul Mine | 10-24-2008 11:04 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Whatever advice you get, from whatever source, go to http://theboxotruth.com/ to see if it has been tested.

Tallships | 10-24-2008 11:32 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun And never shoot slugs through a choke barrel !

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SWRichmond | 10-24-2008 11:36 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by foolsgold (Post 1377538) TA my experience is nearly exact and I got a "kick" out of your remarks. My first time shooting the 870 I went to a range with a box of 25 #8 target loads then bought 5 Remington Buckhammer Slugs. I am not small or soft and damn buckhammers knocked me back and left a mark. I must admit my home protection rounds are the 00 buck magnums pictured, like wildcard said with my adrenaline pumping I'll absorb the kick. If I'm still around to pick up the pieces I will repair the walls. http://goldismoney.info/forums/pictu...&pictureid=270
Are you left handed or do you kiss those things?

Ag_man | 10-24-2008 11:42 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 1377107) 100% correct. In fact, do not fire rifled slugs from rifled barrels (lots of leading issues). You can shoot buck shot in rifled barrels....just puts a spin on the wad cup.
Correct! A rifled slug has rifling cast onto the projectile, to create spin in a smoothbore barrel. A rifled barrel is primarily used for the sabot type of shotgun slugs. Do not use rifled slugs in a rifled barrel! WRT to defensive loading in shotguns, you will get a wide variety of answers. This is how I load my 870: first 2 shells of #4 shot, followed with 3 shells of #1 buck, with the last 2 shells of 00 buck. This is how they will be discharged from the shotgun, so the actual loading process is in reverse.

SLV>GLD | 10-24-2008 11:53 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Tn...Andy (Post 1376170) As a general rule, more mass in a bullet = more knock down power.
A more specific rule is f=ma. That reads force is mass times acceleration. More mass at same velocity equals more oomph. Less mass at more velocity could equal more oomph. That being said, the shotgun rules for it's versatility. Get a couple barrels and a few different loads and your ready to kill anything that moves and very effectively. It seems silly to limit a shotgun to defense only. Speaking of defense, personally, I'd avoid the slugs. One of the greatest things about shot is the spread. Even if you fire way off center the spread is still going to seriously wound a target. If you fire dead center the spread will obliterate the target (like cut in half and liquefy the pieces). You fire off center with a slug and all you did was hurt the guy's ears. Granted, if you hit center he ain't likely to get up and you'll have less mess to clean up. Whatever, for the "I just woke up and I'm naked in the dark and scared shitless" sceanrio I'll take the spread over the slug every time. The last thing I'm going to have at that moment is the wits to make a dead accurate shot. More than likely I'll be wildly firing in their general direction while frantically back-pedaling into another room. This was all in response to OP, I just quoted Andy as a launching point for my physics lesson.

Ag_man | 10-25-2008 12:09 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 1377638) A more specific rule is f=ma. That reads force is mass times acceleration. More mass at same velocity equals more oomph. Less mass at more velocity could equal more oomph. That being said, the shotgun rules for it's versatility. Get a couple barrels and a few different loads and your ready to kill anything that moves and very effectively. It seems silly to limit a shotgun to defense only. Speaking of defense, personally, I'd avoid the slugs. One of the greatest things about shot is the spread. Even if you fire way off center the spread is still going to seriously wound a target. If you fire dead center the spread will obliterate the target (like cut in half and liquefy the pieces). You fire off center with a slug and all you did was hurt the guy's ears. Granted, if you hit center he ain't likely to get up and you'll have less mess to clean up. Whatever, for the "I just woke up and I'm naked in the dark and scared shitless" sceanrio I'll take the spread over the slug every time. The last thing I'm going to have at that moment is the wits to make a dead accurate shot. More than likely I'll be wildly firing in their general direction while frantically back-pedaling into another room. This was all in response to OP, I just quoted Andy as a launching point for my physics lesson.
Actually, when talking about delivery of energy downrange, velocity rules. When you use the formula for kinetic energy, K.E.= 1/2 (m*v^2), increases in velocity will give more "bang for the buck", than increases in mass.

foolsgold | 10-25-2008 12:10 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by SWRichmond (Post 1377612) Are you left handed or do you kiss those things?
I was kissing them...But no more I've mended my ways:4_1_72: :ok:

SLV>GLD | 10-25-2008 12:19 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Ag_man (Post 1377660) Actually, when talking about delivery of energy downrange, velocity rules. When you use the formula for kinetic energy, K.E.= 1/2 (m*v^2), increases in velocity will give more "bang for the buck", than increases in mass.
You are correct. This point is well expounded in Gunshot Wounds - Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques by Vincent J.M. De Maio. The formula I posted is Newton's 2nd law, and while myopic for the subject at hand, is generally much more familiar and easier to read and comprehend. It is quite important to note that increases in velocity are exponential increases.

SLV>GLD | 10-25-2008 01:49 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun I started to copy and paste some of the text but figured the forum TPTB might crawl up my behind for it. The book is very verbose however a gripping read. The first time I encountered it I lost a whole day of work reading it non-stop. Anyone truly interested in a PDF copy should contact me via PM.

amelia | 10-25-2008 09:39 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun WRT to defensive loading in shotguns, you will get a wide variety of answers. This is how I load my 870: first 2 shells of #4 shot, followed with 3 shells of #1 buck, with the last 2 shells of 00 buck. This is how they will be discharged from the shotgun, so the actual loading process is in reverse. __________________ AgMan, would you mind explaining your reasoning for this? Sounds well thought out.

amelia | 10-25-2008 09:41 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Thanks so much, everyone, for your answers. This is really helping. On a related subject, could I trouble you with another question? It's been recommended to me on several occasions that I get a "short" (18-1/2") barrel to go with my Remington 870. What, exactly, would be the advantage of a short barrel, and where would I get one?

Twisted Avatar | 10-25-2008 09:48 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallships (Post 1377607) And never shoot slugs through a choke barrel !
NEVER The Range Trainer put there fear of God in me about that.....I dont even want to Think what happens. T

Tn...Andy | 10-25-2008 09:51 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Two advantages: 1. The shorter the barrel, the wider the spread of the shot. 18" is the legal limit. "Sawed off" shotguns ( and rifles for that matter ) were "controlled" under the National Firearms Act of 1934.....in fact, the first ( and I think ONLY ) test case of the NFA to go before the Supremes was Miller v. US and that was the reason.....Miller didn't have a $200 tax stamp for a 5 buck shotgun. 2. Easier to maneuver in close quarters.....like inside a house..... Edit: Midway carries an 18" barrel......160 bucks, Parkerized ( black, matt, low rust ) finish....swaps right out with the hunting barrel that came with yours. http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=242364

Twisted Avatar | 10-25-2008 09:53 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 1377638) A more specific rule is f=ma. That reads force is mass times acceleration. More mass at same velocity equals more oomph. Less mass at more velocity could equal more oomph. That being said, the shotgun rules for it's versatility. Get a couple barrels and a few different loads and your ready to kill anything that moves and very effectively. It seems silly to limit a shotgun to defense only. Speaking of defense, personally, I'd avoid the slugs. One of the greatest things about shot is the spread. Even if you fire way off center the spread is still going to seriously wound a target. If you fire dead center the spread will obliterate the target (like cut in half and liquefy the pieces). You fire off center with a slug and all you did was hurt the guy's ears. Granted, if you hit center he ain't likely to get up and you'll have less mess to clean up. Whatever, for the "I just woke up and I'm naked in the dark and scared shitless" sceanrio I'll take the spread over the slug every time. The last thing I'm going to have at that moment is the wits to make a dead accurate shot. More than likely I'll be wildly firing in their general direction while frantically back-pedaling into another room. This was all in response to OP, I just quoted Andy as a launching point for my physics lesson.
I agree.........slugs require accurancy and in a "rousted from your bed in the middle of the night adrenaline dump" it might not be there. "Spray and pray" is quite effective with a 12 gauge. T

Twisted Avatar | 10-25-2008 09:57 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Tn...Andy (Post 1378016) Two advantages: 1. The shorter the barrel, the wider the spread of the shot. 18" is the legal limit. "Sawed off" shotguns ( and rifles for that matter ) were "controlled" under the National Firearms Act of 1934.....in fact, the first ( and I think ONLY ) test case of the NFA to go before the Supremes was Miller v. US and that was the reason.....Miller didn't have a $200 tax stamp for a 5 buck shotgun. 2. Easier to maneuver in close quarters.....like inside a house.....
+10000000 And Remmington makes TONS of after market parts for the 870 (shorter barell a shaft that can hold more rounds) The customizations are limitless. T

ruprick | 10-25-2008 10:14 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Powerful Slugs - like the Rem Buckhammers....have a lot of recoil. I'm not a little guy....I shot 2 boxes of buckhammers after shooting 50 rounds of 30.06 (sighting in rifles and shotguns for my buddies)....the rifle was nothing...the slugs really wrecked my shoulder....I mean serious purple-yellow bruises. It is not a macho thing...but a simple fact of physics...slugs are not for the faint of heart..... When looking into felt recoil.....there are really only 3 factors: Mass of the gun, mass of projectile and velocity of projectile. To some extent the type of gun....as some actions tend to absorb recoil .....bolt and pumps are the most solid actions and absorb no recoil energy. Felt recoil is directly related to the MOMENTUM of the projectile....Momentum = Mass x Velocity. The momentum of the projectile must be equaled by the momentum of the gun in the opposite direction......so, you get lots of recoil from massive projectiles. A 30.06 rilfe and a powerful 12 ga slug has roughly the same energies....about 2900 ft-lbs of energy. The 30.06 projectile deliveres its energy via velocity .....the 12ga slug via mass. Just think of the energy of guns....same as lifting 2900 lbs a foot in the air.....that's a car lifted 1 foot!!!! 30.06: 180 grain, 2700 fps, 2900 ft-lbs.....has momentum of (180/7000) x 2700 = 69.4 lb-fps. 12 ga buckhammer, 1.25 oz (547 grains), 1550 fps, 2900 ft-lbs.....has momentum of (1.25/16) x 1550 = 121.1 lb-fps. 121.1 / 69.4 = 1.75.....the 12 ga projectile has 1.75X the momentum of the 30.06.....and will impart 1.75X the recoil velocity on an equal weight gun.... 1.75X the Gun Recoil Velocity....produces a lot more felt Recoil Energy due to the fact that Energy = 0.5 x mass x velocity^2......thus the felt recoil energy will be (1.75)^2 = 3.06.......so in rough terms a powerful 12ga slug will feel like it has 3X the recoil of a very powerful 30.06 rifle... For comparison....I looked up the biggest and baddest production cartridge made by Remington.....their 416 Rem Magnum....an African game cartridge.....400 grains, 2400 fps, 5100 lb-ft of energy!......momentum = (400/7000) x 2400 = 137 lb-fps momentum. (137/121) = 1.13.......(1.13)^2 = 1.28......so, the 416 Rem Mag will only have about 25% more recoil energy than a 12 ga buckhammer. Buckhammer has roughly 3X recoil of a 30.06 and is in the league of biggest african game cartridges. They will leave a serious bruise mark on your shoulder.

sky | 10-25-2008 01:50 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Has anybody ever used the 12 gauge shotgun fleshette shell for home protection?. They were used alot in Nam, but I'm not sure how good they would be against a home invader.

AgAuGal | 10-25-2008 02:12 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Thanks for starting this thread Amelia. I had asked a similar question on a another thread but not sure anyone saw it and I can't find now. Anyway, I have often wrangled with this question about home defense loads and the consensus appeared to be #4 shot. My brain swims when I go shopping for rounds looking at the numbers on the boxes (thanks much to you guys that included pics of the ammo boxes you recommended - when you are not that familiar with the various rounds a pic always helps). I like your variety load plan for home use. Just a caution to know your local laws for legal number of shells you can have loaded at one time if you leave the house (I believe in the home the limit rule doesn't apply, thank goodness and I don't think it should apply outside either but not a battle I'm going to win in my socialist state). Again thanks for the thread and all who are contributing. :applause_ Appreciate the 20ga comments

AgAuGal | 10-25-2008 02:43 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by J in AZ (Post 1378300) Anyone concerned about the recoil of a 12 ga should look into the Federal LE high energy, low recoil shells mentioned by others earlier in this thread, they make a huge difference, I would recommend trying them before downgrading to a 20 ga. I keep them in my shotgun, I find follow-up shots to be much faster and more accurate with them.
I know my limitations, when I was younger 12ga no problem, now that I am 'more mature' a 20ga is what I can handle. No matter the situation I think you have to know what you can safely handle. At this point with the damage that meds did to health the last few years, 20ga is the only option, still better than a pea shooter :biggrin: - that will probably be the choice when I hit 70 :wink: but don't anyone count on that :biggrin: If one's body can handle a 12ga - more power to ya.:coolbeer:

SLV>GLD | 10-25-2008 02:53 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by J in AZ (Post 1378300) Anyone concerned about the recoil of a 12 ga should look into the Federal LE high energy, low recoil shells mentioned by others earlier in this thread, they make a huge difference, I would recommend trying them before downgrading to a 20 ga. I keep them in my shotgun, I find follow-up shots to be much faster and more accurate with them.
Does anyone care to explain how physics is circumvented and an equivalent amount of energy is dispersed with less recoil by design of the cartridge? I'm not getting my head around it.

amelia | 10-25-2008 04:47 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun You guys are the best! Thanks!

HistoryStudent | 10-25-2008 05:38 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun On the job we used 00 Buck. Recommended is #4 shot/buck. Once I PUMPED in the round - I always keep the weapons "off" safety and ONE ROUND ready for SLIDING in - seems that always worked in the past as the potential suspects seemed to lose the will to fight. I "do" remember four black fellows who shot up their eight hands immediately. Colt made men equal; and the shotgun (with 00 buck) gave him superiority. 9 pellets of about .33 caliber is nasty! Somehow PUMPING in the round is a "sound" that even the IDIOTS recognize for some reason - if not - be ready to pull the trigger. :signs14::signs14:

ruprick | 10-25-2008 05:49 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 1378330) Does anyone care to explain how physics is circumvented and an equivalent amount of energy is dispersed with less recoil by design of the cartridge? I'm not getting my head around it.
All managed recoil loads I know of have way less energy than full loads. Another trick is to reduce the payload weight, increase the velocity and have the same enegry but less momentum and less recoil energy...... Remember: Energy = 0.5 x Mass x Velocity^2, while Momentum = Mass x Velocity. You could drop the shot weight by 30% and increase the velocity by 20% and still have the same energy but only have 84% the momentum and shockingly just 70% of the felt recoil.

Atahualpa | 10-25-2008 06:07 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Nobody seems to ever mention 16G shotguns, I've got 2 of them (Winchester and Remington) that I inherited from my grandfather. They must of been popular in there day...the Winchester (model 12) is about 90 years old and was my grandfather's first shotgun... and still shoots perfect. At all the sporting goods stores have a big displays of 12g and 20g and a small shelf with 16g.

Ag_man | 10-25-2008 06:29 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by amelia (Post 1378000) AgMan, would you mind explaining your reasoning for this? Sounds well thought out.
I load for progressively higher penetration and lethality. Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1378510) Nobody seems to ever mention 16G shotguns, I've got 2 of them (Winchester and Remington) that I inherited from my grandfather. They must of been popular in there day...the Winchester (model 12) is about 90 years old and was my grandfather's first shotgun... and still shoots perfect. At all the sporting goods stores have a big displays of 12g and 20g and a small shelf with 16g.
I took my first deer with a 16 GA, I guess my Dad didn't think I could handle a 12 GA at 13 y/o.

Twisted Avatar | 10-25-2008 06:59 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 1378485) Somehow PUMPING in the round is a "sound" that even the IDIOTS recognize for some reason - if not - be ready to pull the trigger.
That sound is universally understood by everybody even foreigners who speak not a word of english YOU MEAN BUSINESS AND DONT MOVE A DAM MUSCLE. You can rule the roost with a empty one and nobody would be none the wiser. EVERYBODY should own a shotgun IMO. T

foolsgold | 10-25-2008 08:03 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 1378039) Powerful Slugs - like the Rem Buckhammers....have a lot of recoil. ...... Buckhammer has roughly 3X recoil of a 30.06 and is in the league of biggest african game cartridges. They will leave a serious bruise mark on your shoulder.
Now I don't feel like such a girlie man. Those buckhammer did leave a mark. First time ever shooting a shotgun and the kid at the range sells me these, he must have had a good laugh. I seriously thought I was doing something wrong. You guys got me thinking so I dug up the casings that I policed up at the range. http://goldismoney.info/forums/pictu...&pictureid=271

foolsgold | 10-25-2008 08:11 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1378596) Please don't try this at home kids.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm Quotes from BoxOtruth... I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels. Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint. Birdshot as a Defense Load I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load? We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds. A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this. In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs. Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job. But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home? Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys. Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

Twisted Avatar | 10-25-2008 08:34 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by foolsgold (Post 1378643) http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm Quotes from BoxOtruth... I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels. Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.
BULLSHYT ..........HAVE THAT SHOTGUN POINTED AT YOU THEN RACK IT. SEE HOW YOUR KNICKERS HOLD UP THEM. T

Silver001 | 10-25-2008 09:25 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun It's not the sound it the flash and the end that really works.

morganchaser | 10-25-2008 10:12 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Saiga 12 has essentially NO felt recoil with 2 3/4 00 Buck. Pump action sounds scary BUT how someone will react to adrenaline is unpredictable. The most insightful thing I've ever read about the "sound of DOOM" was to make that sound you have to engage in 1 of the following 2 scenerios. 1. You find a bad guy and decide to take your gun's bolt out of battery in order to waste a round of ammunition so that you can make a sound that may just give a PCP fiend an extra boost of andrenaline. 2. You are investigating suspicion of bad guy with a shotgun with an empty chamber.

foolsgold | 10-25-2008 10:43 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by George Spelvin (Post 1367017) Now add a Surefire foreend and you'll be in business. I love this foreend replacement. The beam of light easily illuminates across long distances on my farm and is very intense indoors. Its a simple changeout. http://www.lapolicegear.com/sure870we.html http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c..._2025_77942601
I decided to get one of these after much contemplation. In case the bad guy comes at night I don't want to shoot at noise.

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foolsgold | 11-01-2008 09:50 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by foolsgold (Post 1378886) I decided to get one of these after much contemplation. In case the bad guy comes at night I don't want to shoot at noise.
Here's the gun fitted with the tactical fore-end. The fore-end was pricey ($200) but I really like it. The light is bright and might save my life or the life of someone else. I installed it myself, no big deal. I used a socket to nudge the fore-end tube out of the factory fore-end and the rest was childs play. I intend to buy a new fore-end tube assembly here... http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=995851 So I can easily switch between hunting and tactical conflagurations. The tactical fore-end adds 1 pound to the gun's weight. http://goldismoney.info/forums/pictu...&pictureid=281

elroy | 11-01-2008 10:23 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun I read an account of a home invasion. A woman who was home alone at night awoke to the sound of people on the ground floor of her 2 story home. She retrieved hubby's AR15 from the closet, inserted a full mag and crept to the top of the stairs. At this point she listened to the voices and determined there were probably 4 or 5 men in her house. She then chambered a round without trying to conceal the noise. Downstairs there was sudden silence and then a panicked stampede as the perps fled her home. Sometimes the sound effects are enough to do the job.

eat_beef | 11-01-2008 10:38 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun I'm late to the party but I'll chime in... One thing the physics majors missed was that Andy mentioned Knock Down Power, not KE, nor Force. Knock down power has a lot to do with the frontal area of the projectile, it's shape, etc. It's a lot more complex than F=ma, and though really smart guys have been trying for decades, no one has come up with a formula that can tell you exactly why/how it all works. Wildcard is right, birdshot is for birds. Birdshot behaves like a slug, right up until the shot leaves the shot cup. After that, you get 1.5 inches penetration in bare skin, tops. Ask me how I know.:wink: #4 or #1 buck beats 00 all day long, and twice on Sunday. Why? 00 has 9 pellets, # 4 has 27. That's 3x. At extended range, say 30 yards, the pattern on 00 opens up to the point that hit probability on a man sized target drops off SIGNIFICANTLY. Don't believe me? Try patterning YOUR shotgun on an IDPA target at 40 yards, and see how many times not even ONE of the pellets hits the target. Then try it with #1 and #4. Size and or energy of the pellet means nothing if it doesn't hit the target, and you don't give up much energy with the drop from .33 to .30 anyway. Then there's the added advantage of multiple wounds, etc. BTW, as a point of edumacation for common buckshot 2 3/4 rounds: Size Diameter of pellets # of pellets 000 .36 8 00 .33 9 0 .32 12 1 .30 16 4 .24 27 For anyone worried about body armor, consider this: a Mack truck doesn't penetrate, but it does kill. Anyone hammered in the chest from close range with a load of buckshot, much less a slug, is going to be out of the fight, period. We're talking broken ribs, collapsed lungs, concussions, internal hemorraging. That's BEHIND the best armor out there. Try holding up a half inch sheet of steel and letting Lou Ferigno whack you in the chest with a sledge hammer. I won't even go into alternative tactics for perpatrators wearing BA.:9536:

eat_beef | 11-01-2008 10:40 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun That's correct, sometimes, I'd even go so far as to say MOST of the time, the sight or sound of a firearm of any kind is enough to save the day. I'm not willing to bet my life that ANY time I'm in danger is one of those times.

foolsgold | 11-01-2008 10:45 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Remington's 3" Magnum 00Buckshot has 15 pellets... http://goldismoney.info/forums/pictu...&pictureid=282

eat_beef | 11-01-2008 10:50 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun True, but a 3" mag also reduces mag capacity, and vastly increases recoil. BTW, AUGAL, stick with your 20ga. I doubt if anyone will ever be able to tell the difference on the business end!

Pounces On Ounces | 11-02-2008 01:39 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Ag_man (Post 1377622) This is how I load my 870: first 2 shells of #4 shot, followed with 3 shells of #1 buck, with the last 2 shells of 00 buck. This is how they will be discharged from the shotgun, so the actual loading process is in reverse.
I fully agree on this shell selection & have my magazine loaded in a similar way. However, I am still wondering how to best take advantage of the side saddle shell holder on the stock of my recently purchased mossberg 500 tactical shotty. I was thinking I'd just have 5 extra 2-3/4" 00 buck shells on there, but I'm wondering if it might be better to have some 3" magnums on hand. Chances are slim things would ever get that far that I would have to reload from the speed feed stock, but you never know. If things get that bad, hey, the more firepower the better. Shoulder bruises heal quicker than buckshot wounds! :wink: Any opinions on shell selection for the side saddle shell holder? http://www.make-it-so.com/Guns/Mossb...Long-Large.jpg

Highwayman | 11-02-2008 04:20 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 1391767) #4 or #1 buck beats 00 all day long, and twice on Sunday. Why? 00 has 9 pellets, # 4 has 27. That's 3x. At extended range, say 30 yards, the pattern on 00 opens up to the point that hit probability on a man sized target drops off SIGNIFICANTLY. Don't believe me? Try patterning YOUR shotgun on an IDPA target at 40 yards, and see how many times not even ONE of the pellets hits the target. Then try it with #1 and #4. Size and or energy of the pellet means nothing if it doesn't hit the target, and you don't give up much energy with the drop from .33 to .30 anyway. Then there's the added advantage of multiple wounds, etc. BTW, as a point of edumacation for common buckshot 2 3/4 rounds: Size Diameter of pellets # of pellets 000 .36 8 00 .33 9 0 .32 12 1 .30 16 4 .24 27
Eat_beef knows his stuff. Nothing but #1 Buck for me.

Worldmariner | 11-02-2008 10:26 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Doom (Post 1375718) I agree w/ Wildcard, 12 Ga. Federal LE Tactical Low Recoil 9 pell. OO Buck is good stuff :bear_thumb:
Agreed. Or if funds are tight, head to WalMart and get some Rem Express 00 buck. It is inexpensive. At the end of the day, #1, 00 or 000 does MIGHTY damage and has been the standard for 100 years in the 2 3/4 length. I am sure 2 3/4 will work just fine for you! If you can, buy ammo by the case. It is just easier to store that way! :D

Worldmariner | 11-02-2008 10:29 PM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 1391767) I'm late to the party but I'll chime in... One thing the physics majors missed was that Andy mentioned Knock Down Power, not KE, nor Force. Knock down power has a lot to do with the frontal area of the projectile, it's shape, etc. It's a lot more complex than F=ma, and though really smart guys have been trying for decades, no one has come up with a formula that can tell you exactly why/how it all works.
Cross Sectional Density is what you are looking for I think. It is why a low power 45 hits harder (some argue) than a high power 9mm. Although, I am sure MANY here will debate that! :) As I understand it the hydrodynamic shockwave in the body is bigger with a larger diameter bullet.

eat_beef | 11-03-2008 08:42 AM
Re: Need advice on ammunition for shotgun Velocity is largely the same, as the powder charge and payload are equal. Penetration with lead round balls varies greatly shot to shot. They deform on impact and can take random paths in the body. That said, obviously the larger/heavier shot will have more momentum, but the figures I've read indicate that #4 gives up less than 30% of the energy from 000. In reality, you can't tell the difference in the wound channel from 00 to #1 in flesh, and they do similar things to cars and the like. 1 round of #1 through a car door and into the cab (perpindicular) pretty much wastes anything in the front seat (and exits the off side door).:bear_thumb:

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