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- - Rant: Plastic Triggers, Etc. (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=374112)

randymatt | 05-10-2009 09:42 PM
Rant: Plastic Triggers, Etc. Seen a number of discussions / arguments on a few gun boards about new guns and plastic parts. I'm kinda old school myself "walnut and steel". That being said, I have a number of plastic gun parts on guns I own. What bothers me is the plasticizing of some tried and true classic designs from the 50s / 60s. Some time ago the Remington 870 (the all time best selling pump shotgun) switched to a plastic trigger group and from a ball detent type barrel locking system to a plastic ratchet type lock. Military and LE still use the old system. This from REMINGTON ARMS COMPANY, LE DIVISION: "The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock down as used on the Express system." More recently the Ruger 10/22 (the all time best selling .22 rifle), in 2008 they changed the trigger group, trigger, magazine latch and barrel band to plastic. Mossbergs have for a long time used plastic parts, at least the civilian flavors. When I was 14 (1970s) I had a 20ga pump and it bothered me that it had a plastic trigger guard. Just a few years earlier I bought a BB gun that was all metal, before that a toy wood rifle that had a steel trigger guard. I eventually sold the Mossburg and got a Rem 870 Wingmaster (~ $139 if I remember right). Maybe I just grew up during a time when plastic was considered "cheap". Of course the gun manufacturers don't call it plastic they say "high grade polymer", "high-quality synthetic formulation" or something along those lines,,, what ever. Some argue the new high-tech materials are just as durable as the metal parts. IMO the jury is still out, they have not been around long enough to experience years of exposure to cleaning solvents, hot and cold cycles, UV, etc. Others argue these are less "critical" parts and plastic 'should' work fine, so what does the trigger group do? well it protects and holds together the parts of the gun that actually allow you to shoot it. What does the barrel lock on the Rem 870 do? it holds the barrel on the shotgun. Recently I wanted to get another shotgun, a 12ga HD setup, not being thrilled by the new "budget" off the shelf varieties (Mossberg and Rem 870), I opted for a used (1973) very good condition Wingmaster I found in a mom and pop gunshop. Got it for $175 out the door. Probably would had sold for more except for the fact it was a 2� only, which IMO is fine for HD. Ironically the first thing I did was to take off the wood furniture and replace it with,,, yep, plastic, well actually it's some kind of "30% glass-filled polymer" material. RandyMatt P.S. The one below has held up fine... Picture Link

TechGuy | 05-10-2009 09:57 PM
Re: Rant: Plastic Triggers, Etc. I hate plastic guns. Can't see passing on a plastic gun to the family... Not much of an heirloom.

____hoot____ | 05-10-2009 10:10 PM
Re: Rant: Plastic Triggers, Etc. Had the plastic safety bust on a Mossburg 500 back in the 1970s in sub-zero temperatures. :censored:

TechGuy | 05-10-2009 10:37 PM
Re: Rant: Plastic Triggers, Etc. Quote:
Originally Posted by ____hoot____ (Post 1717068) Had the plastic safety bust on a Mossburg 500 back in the 1970s in sub-zero temperatures. :censored:
thought most of the plastic from the 70's was bakelite.... BTW> The early M16's had all bakelite grips and stocks....

MOD1 | 05-11-2009 05:58 AM
Re: Rant: Plastic Triggers, Etc. RandyMatt, I seldom make any changes to the things I own, but a few things came to mind when I read your post. I've replaced: a plastic magazine follower in a Remington 870 a nylon trigger and mainspring housing in a Colt 1991A1 pistol several plastic magazine floor plates for Brno .22 rifles. Some changes are to make a piece more aesthetically pleasing, but the magazine floor plates did crack and deteriorate from age. Take care, Mod1

larphillips | 05-11-2009 10:48 AM
Re: Rant: Plastic Triggers, Etc. Plastic is easier to melt down en masse when they start rounding up all the guns in private hands. Also, well-made guns with steel and hardwood last a hell of a lot longer than plastic guns (or at least it would seem so.) If they want to control the amount of guns in circulation, creating intentional breakdowns (like they do with large appliances and automobiles) would be the way to go about it. Guns break, new ones get more expensive, less guns out there for them to have to grab.

S_Goldberg | 05-11-2009 10:54 AM
Re: Rant: Plastic Triggers, Etc. Not all polymers are equal. The plastic used in that squirt gun is very different from that used in gun parts like the frame of Glock pistols. As an engineer I can assure you that polymers can actually perform better in some applications than metals. The formerly metal parts they are replacing are also low stress parts. The life of a part depends on the type and magnitude of the forces it is subjected to. These have little to no forces on them and were probably over designed int he first place. This results in wasted weight and cost that is then passed down to you the consumer. If you don't like plastic, don't buy it.

wallew | 05-11-2009 11:30 AM
Re: Rant: Plastic Triggers, Etc. Quote:
Originally Posted by S_Goldberg (Post 1717656) Not all polymers are equal.
SG, Not all steel are equal either. About ten plus years ago, S&W went with MIM parts on the inside of most of their handguns. Not ALL the interior parts are MIM, but a lot of them are. MIM stands for Metal Injected Molded. Which means they have a mold that they squirt the hot metal into. Then they cool it quickly. The theory is if you take heated metal and quench (cool) it quickly, it becomes much harder. That's BS for MIM stuff. I can't tell you how many MIM parts I've replaced over the years. Sometimes, progress ONLY MEANS the company saves a few pennies per part made. THAT'S PROGRESS???

TUMS | 05-11-2009 11:31 AM
Re: Rant: Plastic Triggers, Etc. 1 Attachment(s) Here's my new plastic gun. Remington 700 XCR compact tactical 223. Leupold VX-3 4.5-14x40 varmint hunters retical.

S_Goldberg | 05-11-2009 12:36 PM
Re: Rant: Plastic Triggers, Etc. Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1717719) SG, Not all steel are equal either. About ten plus years ago, S&W went with MIM parts on the inside of most of their handguns. Not ALL the interior parts are MIM, but a lot of them are. MIM stands for Metal Injected Molded. Which means they have a mold that they squirt the hot metal into. Then they cool it quickly. The theory is if you take heated metal and quench (cool) it quickly, it becomes much harder. That's BS for MIM stuff. I can't tell you how many MIM parts I've replaced over the years. Sometimes, progress ONLY MEANS the company saves a few pennies per part made. THAT'S PROGRESS???
I know what MIM is. When done correctly it is not a problem. I have seen problems with forged steel too. Casting and MIM can be screwed up, but if done correctly, there is no problem and they will work fine. MIM is used to save money when small parts that are either costly or sometimes impossible to machine are needed. And metallurgy is far more complex than simply "quenching quickly". Quenching is a very controlled process to ensure temperature and timing are correct to achieve the desired microstructure. Also, hardness is not always the end goal. Hard steel is more brittle and therefore more prone to fatigue failure. But this isn't the correct forum for this.

S_Goldberg | 05-11-2009 12:37 PM
Re: Rant: Plastic Triggers, Etc. Quote:
Originally Posted by TUMS (Post 1717720) Here's my new plastic gun. Remington 700 XCR compact tactical 223. Leupold VX-3 4.5-14x40 varmint hunters retical.
Nice. How does it shoot?

TUMS | 05-11-2009 02:23 PM
Re: Rant: Plastic Triggers, Etc. Quote:
Originally Posted by S_Goldberg (Post 1717803) Nice. How does it shoot?
It's great. I just sighted it in today. It's better than 1/2 MOA at 100 yards. with 55 grain reloads. Close enough for me. And I haven't even fine tuned the loads yet.

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