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Twisted Avatar | 01-21-2009 12:58 PM
How to Approach Shooting How to Approach Shooting, by M.J.M. I am a basic Marine who has been blessed with learning marksmanship from some of the best practitioners in the business of shooting. No, I am not a sniper or a silent but deadly snake eater from a recon unit who is speaking from high atop a lofty pillar to the masses. Simply, I am a regular guy (with very little prior experience) who is well trained in the art of marksmanship who feels comfortable with a gun in his hand. Furthermore, I simply enjoy shooting and am fortunate enough to be able to do it as part of my working life. Like everyone else who reads this web site, the present and future state of our society concerns me. As a result, I vowed that I would contribute something to this that might help people with similar views/concerns. While at a gun show recently, I was personally overwhelmed by the volume and cost of the high tech firearms and accessories available to the public. Most of it was truly amazing stuff. Laser range finders, laser sights, holographic sights, night vision scopes and ultra bright lights name just a few of the accessories that one can attach to a weapon to become more lethal. However, this stuff was amazingly expensive and complicated to use. I also found that many of the vendors really didn�t know their own products. Unfortunately, many were there only to make a buck and take advantage of the new hot gun market that has been created by the recent election results. This bothered me because I wondered what a novice shooter would think while swimming around in this sea of cool, yet complex stuff? They would most likely believe that one must attach all kinds of expensive accessories to a gun in order to be proficient with a weapon. They would also think that they have to spend all of their savings (assuming they have savings) to upgrade their guns to achieve great results. While I cannot endorse the quality and effectiveness of any type of accessory for a gun, I can tell you that they have a place and they are amazingly lethal when put in the right hands. Moreover, I also cannot endorse any type of weapon. Yet, I can also tell you that the accessories and the guns are only as good as the person shooting them. In other words, technology can neither teach marksmanship nor can it cure poor marksmanship. Remember, the United States military killed lots of enemy with M1 Garands and Model 1911 pistols equipped with iron sights. You need to learn the fundamentals�basics will always pay huge dividends. My goal is to throw out some of my thoughts to give beginning shooters reading this web site an idea of what direction to go in order to learn to shoot: 1. Take a class. Go to an indoor range and take a class from a certified NRA instructor. Pull out an advertisement in the classifieds or put a flyer up at a local range seeking marksmanship instruction from someone in law enforcement or the military. We are out there in large numbers. I would teach someone in exchange for a burger on a free Saturday. If you find the right person, it shouldn�t cost you too much. Here are some of the things to look for when you are receiving instruction (these can apply to rifle and pistol and are in no particular order except safety): safety, trigger control, grip, stances/positions, sight alignment, sight picture and breathing�just to name a few. There are no secrets, only basic techniques. Demand the basics. If someone wants to come right out of the chute and start teaching advanced techniques, either force them to take a few steps back or get another instructor. Basics, Basics, Basics. 2. Start small. Every learning process starts off with one small step and should progress toward refinement as a student masters the fundamentals. Go buy or rent a .22 pistol, get some cheap rounds and let someone show you the proper way to shoot it. Once you have a small caliber weapon mastered at a very low price, you will truly be amazed at how easily you can cross apply those skills to a more powerful weapon. On many civilian ranges I have observed multitudes of clowns brandishing large caliber weapons, shooting expensive tactical/competition ammo and deploying zero common sense. Due to their abject ignorance, they can�t put a round on paper because they are too concerned about the sexiness of the gun that they are shooting. Meanwhile, two lanes down, I am getting a 14 year old first time shooter to hold a 4 inch group with 9mm reloads. Starting with a .44 Magnum or a Desert Eagle will not teach you anything but how to fail or how to get killed. Shooting is not sexy and it is not a fashion statement. It is designed for one thing�to kill. Start at the bottom and work up. It is worth it in the end. 3. Dry Fire/Snap In: Snapping in (practicing without rounds off of the range) is something that Marines do at boot camp for countless hours before stepping foot on a live fire range. This process also continues in the squad bays at night to help young recruits refine positions and work out the kinks. Ask anyone who is a really good shot. They will tell you that you can improve your shooting for free without expending a single round by dry firing and snapping in. There are many different exercises you can do to enhance this. Shooters place quarters or spent rounds on top of the pistol and see if they can dry fire the weapon without said item falling off. It enhances your trigger control and your confidence. Bottom line, it gets the weapon in your hand and allows you to practice and commit proper technique to muscle memory without leaving the house. ALWAYS CHECK YOUR WEAPON TO ENSURE THAT IT IS NOT LOADED PRIOR TO HANDLING IT! READ THAT AGAIN. 4. Get further training: Once you feel confident and you have some cash, enlist the help of one of the tactical shooting schools to hone your skills. Again, just like transferring basic shooting skills from a .22 to a .45, you will be amazed at how smoothly good fundamentals apply to solid tactical shooting. There are arguments on both sides of this, but I will tell you that building a solid foundation is not only critical, but it is easy and can be done at a reasonable price. Don�t fall victim to believing that you have to spend substantial amounts of money to become a great shooter. As a public service, I would like to include the four safety rules that are pounded into the heads of recruits. I do not bleed green and do not put these in this article to somehow snub people from the other services. These are the only rules that I know. I have taught them to novice shooters in the civilian world, and I can attest to how well they work. If everyone internalized these and followed them, we would not have accidents with weapons. They are brilliant in their simplicity. I wish that we still worked on a level that was this cut and dry. Here they are: 1. Treat every weapon as if it were loaded. 2. Never point a weapon at anything that you do not intend to shoot. 3. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire. 4. Keep your weapon on safe until you intend to fire. Read them and teach them! I cannot possibly hope to teach anyone how to shoot in an article. I simply believe that there is a lot of confusion out there for those who want to arm themselves against some of the dangers that lurk in our society. For them, I hope that this little compilation helps dispel some myths and provides a useful roadmap to get started. Thanks for reading http://www.survivalblog.com/

igorthesmall | 01-21-2009 01:22 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting I think he messed up rule #4. Personally I never bother to use a safety.

Twisted Avatar | 01-21-2009 01:25 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by igorthesmall (Post 1523064) I think he messed up rule #4. Personally I never bother to use a safety.
It depends on the skill of the shooter and for most noobies that is sound advice. T

Mantokir | 01-21-2009 01:37 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting I've only ever used the safety on the range, and when in combat I used it when there was no threat. If i was riding down the road keeping an eye out for possible ambushes, the safety was off and a round was chambered. We had what we called "Weapon Conditions" which were stages of weapon ready. Condition 4- Weapon on safe, bolt home on an empty chamber, no magazine inserted, ejection port cover closed Condition 3- Weapon on safe, bolt home on an empty chamber, magazine inserted, ejection port cover closed Condition 2- DOES NOT APPLY (to the M16) Condition 1- Weapon on safe, round in chamber, bolt home, magazine inserted, ejection port cover closed Once in combat, condition 1 with the safety on was generally a formality, if there was possible enemy contact, you were as close to ready to go as you could get without actually sending rounds down range.

The Argent Dragon | 01-21-2009 01:54 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantokir (Post 1523104) Once in combat, condition 1 with the safety on was generally a formality, if there was possible enemy contact, you were as close to ready to go as you could get without actually sending rounds down range.
Makes perfect sense to me. :coolbeer:

ruprick | 01-21-2009 01:55 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting In my opinion the greatest advantage to doubel action only weapon is they should never have a safety.....most do not, but some do. In my opinion, the Glock series of pistols are the best fighting pistol - there are no external controls....no hammer, no safety, no decocking lever. Rack it and pull the trigger. The greatest limitation of the 1911 or Browning Highpower....is Cocked and Locked (safety engaged) carry....many folks are not comfortable doing this.....I'll even say I do not like the idea of cocked and locked. You have to remember to disengage the safety to use.....you can train for this...but why bother...get a double action semiautomatic. Or, even better get a DAO.....like a Glock. This is why more than 70% of all police forces use the Glock. The Glock DAO is very nice....no pratical limitation on accuracy.

Twisted Avatar | 01-21-2009 01:59 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 1523153) In my opinion the greatest advantage to doubel action only weapon is they should never have a safety.....most do not, but some do. In my opinion, the Glock series of pistols are the best fighting pistol - there are no external controls....no hammer, no safety, no decocking lever. Rack it and pull the trigger. The greatest limitation of the 1911 or Browning Highpower....is Cocked and Locked (safety engaged) carry....many folks are not comfortable doing this.....I'll even say I do not like the idea of cocked and locked. You have to remember to disengage the safety to use.....you can train for this...but why bother...get a double action semiautomatic. Or, even better get a DAO.....like a Glock. This is why more than 70% of all police forces use the Glock. The Glock DAO is very nice....no pratical limitation on accuracy.
Well Said brother Ru and that is exactly why I picked up Glocks. Should the moment of truth every come all you wanted to do is squeeze and squeeze again. 1.5-2 seconds can litterally cost you eternity. T

TTAZZMAN | 01-21-2009 02:22 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting I agree on the safty thing.. I carry a Kahr ....all it needs is a rack and pull........ but i would NEVER carry it with one in the pipe...personally i would rather lose the one round capacity wise to get the added safety i can always carry a extra mag

goldgun | 01-21-2009 02:26 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Now go buy some scary black guns.

Twisted Avatar | 01-21-2009 02:33 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by TTAZZMAN (Post 1523210) I agree on the safty thing.. I carry a Kahr ....all it needs is a rack and pull........ but i would NEVER carry it with one in the pipe...personally i would rather lose the one round capacity wise to get the added safety i can always carry a extra mag
Unless it was a open carry state I would not risk carrying one in the pipe..... that just makes me a tad bit too nervous. T

Stonewall | 01-21-2009 02:50 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting One in the chamber is the only way to carry a dao (Glock or XD style) pistols. It is essentially the same thing as loading every chamber in a hammerless revolver. Nothing unsafe about it unless an operator error takes place.

GoldWampum | 01-21-2009 03:22 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall (Post 1523256) One in the chamber is the only way to carry a dao (Glock of XD style) pistols. It is essentialpy the same thing as loading every chamber in a hammerless revolver. Nothing unsafe about it unless an operator error takes place.
Always chambered with the XD. No fear of incident and ready to go.

TTAZZMAN | 01-21-2009 05:47 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting the Kahr is SAO with no safetys so there is no way i would risk one in the pipe I have carried my walther p99 DAO with one in the pipe ...but it has a decocker and a pin block do the Glocks/XDs have decockers and pin blockers??

Stonewall | 01-21-2009 06:17 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by TTAZZMAN (Post 1523614) the Kahr is SAO with no safetys so there is no way i would risk one in the pipe I have carried my walther p99 DAO with one in the pipe ...but it has a decocker and a pin block do the Glocks/XDs have decockers and pin blockers??
Just to be clear, SAO would function like an old western six shooter and DAO would function like a hammerless revolver. Some guns can do both. The Xd and Glocks both have "internal safties" which is the same thing as a pin blocker. Neither one has a decocker since they don't have an additional SA function as a Sig would.

IGrok | 01-21-2009 08:01 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting I carry a Kahr PM9. It is a DAO handgun. When I carry there is always a round in the chamber. I am comfortable with that. Off the Kahr website. "Operation Trigger cocking DAO; lock breech; "Browning - type" recoil lug; passive striker block; no magazine disconnect"

Twisted Avatar | 01-21-2009 08:26 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting SAO??? DAO??? T

gpond | 01-21-2009 09:16 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1523850) SAO??? DAO??? T
SAO = Single Action Only. DAO = Double Action Only. SAO = with a revolver it used to mean YOU HAVE TO COCK IT EACH TIME. DAO = with a revolver YOU CAN'T COCK IT. (Unexposed hammer.) I'm less certain of what these mean with semi-autos. DAO I think means that your trigger pull cocks it and fires it each time. SAO I think means that you have to rack it to cock it, and naturally each firing cocks it again.

TomD | 01-21-2009 10:24 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by gpond (Post 1523953) SAO = Single Action Only. DAO = Double Action Only. SAO = with a revolver it used to mean YOU HAVE TO COCK IT EACH TIME. DAO = with a revolver YOU CAN'T COCK IT. (Unexposed hammer.) I'm less certain of what these mean with semi-autos. DAO I think means that your trigger pull cocks it and fires it each time. SAO I think means that you have to rack it to cock it, and naturally each firing cocks it again.
With a semi, DAO would be like a Glock. The trigger pull is the same whether its the 1st or the 8th round. If you've never shot a Glock, the trigger pull is unique, in between a DA and SA pull. SA is like a 1911 where there is no DA available and you have to manually cock the hammer for the 1st shot. I'm not sure there is any such thing as a single action only in the context of a semi-auto. After the first shot, you don't have to cock them any more. (Except in the case of a Glock type action and that's a special case.)

St. Germain | 01-21-2009 10:32 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Great post TA. Brings me back to my grandfathers field, learning to shoot his bolt action .22 with iron sights. Thankful that i grew up in a time when a 10 year old got to learn the basics and was expected to graduate to a shotgun at 12. To this day I still have an affinity for iron sights.

Willie Peter | 01-21-2009 10:36 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Had a Browning Hi-Power before (wish I'd kept it now, they've increased a lot) but I never liked the idea of carrying it cocked and locked, so got a Sig-226, and love it, good capacity, decocking lever,...... so first pull is DA, then the rest is a smooth SA, and unlike the Browning, the Sig digests everything

ruprick | 01-21-2009 10:44 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Guys - have no fear......never carry on an empty chamber!!!! Never! These modern semiautos are 100% safe to carry loaded + chambered. You will never have time to draw and chamber a round. What is super nice about a double action pistol or revolver is the hammer is down and can be cocked by the action of the trigger being pulled. They are safe to be dropped ....there are several disconnects internal to the gun.... I've carried a gun for 22 years.....and I have thought about ....what if that little primer for some reason just cooks off and this old girl fires right here in my pocket????? It could happen...but I just do not see how......let's call it astronomical odds of one just cooking off. In a revolver.....if you are willing to give up a round.....you can carry on an empty chamber. Some single action revolvers have the ability to carry hammer down with the cylinder half way between chambers. Again - never carry unchambered.....you need it ready to go when you need it.

Stonewall | 01-21-2009 10:46 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Its two single "actions" to fire a SAO pitsol. The first action is to cock the hammer, the second is to pull the trigger. A double action would be doing these two things at once, or in one action (pulling the trigger). Technically, a glock or xd is in a SA mode for the first shot if there is no round chambered when carried. They are refered to as DAO since they are designed to be carried chambered.

ruprick | 01-21-2009 10:47 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1523159) Well Said brother Ru and that is exactly why I picked up Glocks. T
TA, I think you have the full fleet of 9mm double stack Glocks.......don't you have the Full Size 17, the Compact 19, and the Super Compact 21?......or do you have a 26???? I know you have a hell of a lot of them! I've got 2 of the 17 plus a 19.

TTAZZMAN | 01-21-2009 11:26 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by IGrok (Post 1523796) I carry a Kahr PM9. It is a DAO handgun. When I carry there is always a round in the chamber. I am comfortable with that. Off the Kahr website. "Operation Trigger cocking DAO; lock breech; "Browning - type" recoil lug; passive striker block; no magazine disconnect"
I see that on the Kahr website....i am kind of confused now... My PM9 requires racking the mag which cocks the trigger for the trigger to work, i have it in my hand now(no clip) it requires racking the slide to load the trigger the first time of course each sucessive pull the slide is pre-racked by ejecting the spent case..i CAN'T sit here and keep clicking the fireing pin by pulling the trigger empty my walther p99 ...da....the trigger pull does all the cocking and trigger release...empty or not racked or not every time i pull the trigger on the walther it sets and releases the firing pin. I totally understand SA and DA revolvers.....but i guess i am confused on the semi-auto pistols.. someone please unconfuse me.... i am a old gun hand and this has me confused my designation defining the Kahr a SAO appears to be correct according to wickapedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_(firearms)) edit...after disassembly and very close function inspection....the PM9 is sorta between SAO and DAO....as it requires the slide to be racked to PARTIALLY load the striker spring but the trigger action completes the spring loading .....so it fits both definitions...intresting concept

IGrok | 01-22-2009 08:08 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting and safe to carry with one in the chamber.....

Irons | 01-22-2009 09:39 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall (Post 1523256) One in the chamber is the only way to carry a dao (Glock or XD style) pistols. It is essentially the same thing as loading every chamber in a hammerless revolver. Nothing unsafe about it unless an operator error takes place.
And like a boat they will sell these to anybody.I personally do not trust any automatic pistol that does not have an external hammer.Period

SLV>GLD | 01-22-2009 09:43 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by Irons (Post 1526175) And like a boat they will sell these to anybody.I personally do not trust any automatic pistol that does not have an external hammer.Period
That is an interesting stance. I will pontificate on it. Seriously. In the meantime, I will leave you with the words of John Dillinger, ""Never Trust a Woman or an Automatic Pistol".

Twisted Avatar | 01-22-2009 09:45 PM
Re: How to Approach Shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 1524095) TA, I think you have the full fleet of 9mm double stack Glocks.......don't you have the Full Size 17, the Compact 19, and the Super Compact 21?......or do you have a 26???? I know you have a hell of a lot of them! I've got 2 of the 17 plus a 19.
17's 19's and 26's I wanted to stay in 9mm family and I like the fact that they all can hold 17 and 33rd mags.That is just something that cant be beat in my book and puts Glock head and shoulder above the rest. T

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