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Black Blade | 06-19-2008 11:19 AM
"Open Carry" Under Assault In Utah Video embedded at : http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3559401 Gun owners complain about treatment in West Valley City June 17th, 2008 @ 10:05pm Sarah Dallof reporting A group of gun owners is upset with the West Valley City police force. They claim officers are treating them unfairly because they choose to carry their weapons in shoulder and hip holsters, completely out in the open. In Utah, there are places no one but law enforcement can take a gun, and there are restrictions, for example people without a concealed carry permit can't openly carry a loaded gun, but much of the time, it's allowed. Jared Belcher is among those who choose to carry a gun. "It's a Bursa Thunder 380 I carry just about every day," he says. He carries it on his belt, out in the open. He said, "Most people, surprisingly, don't notice I have it." Belcher says he's never had a problem taking the gun anywhere, but he's concerned because others he's met through the organization opencarry.org have. Travis Deveraux says he was walking in his West Valley neighborhood when an officer pulled up, pulled out her gun and ordered him on the ground. "At the end there were a total of eight officers who'd cuffed me up, taken my firearm. But they let me go because there was nothing wrong I'd done," Deveraux said. Belcher and Deveraux joined more than a dozen other gun owners tonight at the West Valley city council meeting to voice concerns about how the city's police force has handled several situations. Scott Thompson, who also openly carries his gun, said, "A lot of the officers seem to be ignorant of the fact that carrying a firearm openly in public is perfectly legal in Utah, if done properly." Wayne Pyle, the city manager for West Valley City, said, "Until today I'd never heard there was any concern, complaint or incident." He had limited time to research the cases but says it appears West Valley Police handled them appropriately. He adds that in any situation where officers know someone has a gun, they're extra cautious. "This is a different day and age than the late 19th century. It's not common to see people wearing side-arms on the street," he said. After hearing the group's comments, the city council recommended the citizens file their complaints with the city's Professional Standards Review Board, which investigates concerns against officers. -- See also related story at http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9617824 Gun-toting citizen says WVC cops harassed him By Mar�a Villase�or The Salt Lake Tribune Article Last Updated: 06/17/2008 10:19:57 PM MDT Posted: 10:18 PM- WEST VALLEY CITY - With his Smith & Wesson .40 caliber, semi-automatic holstered on his right hip, Travis Deveraux addressed the mayor and City Council on Tuesday. He has been harassed by West Valley City police for carrying that gun and treated like a criminal, Deveraux said. "A criminal does not want [police] attention, and they will not openly carry a gun," he said. With 10 other gun-toting civilians - who came from as far as Bountiful, Santaquin and Lehi - to support him, Deveraux told the council that their police department has consistently overreacted to his gun carrying. And in one occasion last year, he said, the police officers violated his civil rights. Deveraux said he was walking around his neighborhood to exercise last December, when he was stopped by a Granite School District officer and "was informed that if I touched my gun, I would be killed." The officer called the West Valley City Police Department, Deveraux continued, three squad cars arrived, and he was detained and his gun taken from him - then, after a few minutes, he was released. Those were violations of his federal and state constitutional rights, said the Swede who became an American citizen this January. And they are civil rights abuses that he has only encountered in West Valley City, Deveraux said. "I don't blame them for being a little bit extra careful," he said, noting that the crime rate is high in Utah's second largest city, "but there's a line they crossed between being a little bit careful and a little bit too careful." Assistant Police Chief Craig Black said he hadn't been aware of the incident involving Deveraux until hearing about it at the City Council meeting. He said there would be a review of the case by the professional standards board to determined what happened. Matt Murray of North Salt Lake said he has never been bothered by any police officers for openly carrying his gun. Kevin Jensen of Santaquin said he has had a few police encounters that were "very professional . . . they just want to make sure you're not a nutcase." But Jeramiah McDonald of Lehi said he has had problems similar to Deveraux's. McDonald said that because he is only 19 years old, he can't apply for a concealed weapons permit and his only option is to openly carry his guns. Because he felt police officers violated his civil rights, McDonald has filed a lawsuit. Deveraux said he doesn't want to sue anyone, or get an officer fired or fined. He wants West Valley City officers to be trained, or get more training on gun rights. Mayor Dennis Nordfelt encouraged Deveraux to file a complaint with the professional standards review board, which oversees any resident problems with the police department. Black said his police officers are trained on gun laws. (Black Blade's take: Bullshit)

flash91 | 06-19-2008 11:29 AM
Re: "Open Carry" Under Assault In Utah Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Blade (Post 1153548) In Utah, ... for example people without a concealed carry permit can't openly carry a loaded gun, but much of the time, it's allowed.
The right to keep and bear arms refers to the right to keep "bears with arms". I get it now... When the eight officers cuffed him, with no probable cause, why aren't they being charged with assault and unlawful imprisonment?

wallew | 06-19-2008 02:12 PM
Re: "Open Carry" Under Assault In Utah At some point, those who carry weapons openly will finally figure out that all they have to do is set a simplistic trap. Have one of their members legally walk up and down the street where these types of conflicts have occured. Make sure they are BACKED UP with about forty of their members, all carrying MBR's who stay out of sight until a confrontation occurs. When the person who is legally carrying openly is stopped, the large number of cops show up to detain the individual, then THE LEO'S get surrounded by citizens who out arm them three to one and tell THEM to lay on the ground and disarm them, THEY WILL FINALLY GET IT. Until this, these types of stops will continue. Hell, there's two in the general discussion right now. This ain't gonna get any better. It's gonna get WAY WORSE, then we da pipple are gonna get pissed off and tell all these so called 'peace officers' that they best watch themselves, because THEY ARE. Until that occurs, we will continue to have tyranny on our shores.

Juristic Person | 06-19-2008 02:22 PM
Re: "Open Carry" Under Assault In Utah Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1153779) At some point, those who carry weapons openly will finally figure out that all they have to do is set a simplistic trap. Have one of their members legally walk up and down the street where these types of conflicts have occured. Make sure they are BACKED UP with about forty of their members, all carrying MBR's who stay out of sight until a confrontation occurs. When the person who is legally carrying openly is stopped, the large number of cops show up to detain the individual, then THE LEO'S get surrounded by citizens who out arm them three to one and tell THEM to lay on the ground and disarm them, THEY WILL FINALLY GET IT. Until this, these types of stops will continue. Hell, there's two in the general discussion right now. This ain't gonna get any better. It's gonna get WAY WORSE, then we da pipple are gonna get pissed off and tell all these so called 'peace officers' that they best watch themselves, because THEY ARE. Until that occurs, we will continue to have tyranny on our shores.
Now THAT would be something! What's good for the goose is good for the gander, eh?

Black Blade | 06-19-2008 03:27 PM
Re: "Open Carry" Under Assault In Utah "Citizens Arrest"? That would be an interesting test case and at the very least very instructive for law enforcement accross the state.

SWRichmond | 06-19-2008 04:25 PM
Re: "Open Carry" Under Assault In Utah Cops have become too accustomed to theirs' being the only guns on the street. The attitude adjustment will take time, and will be met with resistance.

Aussie | 06-19-2008 04:32 PM
Re: "Open Carry" Under Assault In Utah Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1153779) Make sure they are BACKED UP with about forty of their members, all carrying MBR's who stay out of sight until a confrontation occurs.
I think that could get real ugly - real quick!

tojaktoty | 06-19-2008 05:35 PM
Re: "Open Carry" Under Assault In Utah Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1153779) At some point, those who carry weapons openly will finally figure out that all they have to do is set a simplistic trap. Have one of their members legally walk up and down the street where these types of conflicts have occured. Make sure they are BACKED UP with about forty of their members, all carrying MBR's who stay out of sight until a confrontation occurs. When the person who is legally carrying openly is stopped, the large number of cops show up to detain the individual, then THE LEO'S get surrounded by citizens who out arm them three to one and tell THEM to lay on the ground and disarm them, THEY WILL FINALLY GET IT. Until this, these types of stops will continue. Hell, there's two in the general discussion right now. This ain't gonna get any better. It's gonna get WAY WORSE, then we da pipple are gonna get pissed off and tell all these so called 'peace officers' that they best watch themselves, because THEY ARE. Until that occurs, we will continue to have tyranny on our shores.
:applause_:applause_:applause_

wallew | 06-19-2008 07:50 PM
Re: "Open Carry" Under Assault In Utah Let me make this PAINFULLY CLEAR. At some point, WE ALL will have to make a decision. Good or bad. Right or wrong. Status Quo sheeple or 'home grown terrorist'. Just because cops CAN be a bully with a gun, doesn't make them right. The same holds true for those of us who own firearms. But remember this: In WACO, because of the police mindset, they came to a firefight COMPLETELY unprepared for what they were up against. This is typical for 'cop think'. By that I mean 'cop think' means "Well, one radio call for help and I've got backup in moments". While that MIGHT work out in a really large city, NOT SO MUCH in the rural countryside. Which MOST of UTAH is, the exception is SLC of course. But I'd bet that when eight cops show up, they have severely depleted their reserves and are COMPLETLEY unprepared for any show of force against them. WHY? Because THEY ARE THE COPS. Once that little piece of metal that they like to put in your face (badge) saying THEY are the good guys becomes worthless, trust me. They will RARELY exit their headquarters in sizes smaller than a platoon. Plus they will ONLY come out in armored vehicles. We are LESS than ten years from this occuring. Probably less than five years. When the sheeple 'get the idea' that TPTB are mainly the cop on the corner, who wants NO TRUCK with bad news coming from the citizenry. NONE. That doesn't make them cowards, it just makes them intelligent.

Black Blade | 06-23-2008 03:11 AM
Re: "Open Carry" Under Assault In Utah Walsh: Why are some people so gun-crazy? By Rebecca Walsh Tribune Columnist Salt Lake Tribune Article Last Updated:06/20/2008 03:42:59 PM MDT My 20-month-old nephew loves Elmo and Dora. He also has started making explosion and gunfire noises. I get the inevitability of little boys' fascination for guns. What I can't figure out are the men and sometimes women who don't grow out of the gun-crazy stage of childhood, who need to have a handgun on their hips at all times, who need their neighbors to notice. Ten of them stormed the West Valley City Council meeting last week to back up Travis Deveraux, a 36-year-old credit card company worker who was detained by police last December while exercising with his Smith & Wesson. "I don't blame them for being a little bit extra careful," Deveraux said. "But there's a line they crossed between being a little bit careful and a little bit too careful." I thought there was no such thing as "too careful" - especially with a gun. But the OpenCarry crowd's literal interpretation of the "right to bear arms" and self-appointment as our "well-regulated militia" undercuts careful law enforcement, membership in a civil society and even reason. It's in the Constitution, their thinking goes. They are "peaceably going about their business while armed," standing on the watchtower, the last line of defense against government tyranny and crazed criminals. We should thank them. I understand the thrill of firing a Glock (I've done it), the euphoria of hitting the center of a target (and that too), generations of family deer-hunting weekends and the legitimate self-preservation instincts of Utah's elected concealed weapon carriers. But the OpenCarry movement is a mystery to me. What kind of psychology - overcompensation, paranoia, antisocial personality - is behind that thinking? Steven Gunn, an attorney and board member of the Gun Violence Prevention Center of Utah, believes it's pure ego. "We have inconsiderate boors walking around on the street carrying firearms openly," says Gunn. "I don't think they are truly afraid for their safety. Most of them are trying to make a statement about the 2nd Amendment." Anthropologist Charles Springwood says open carriers are trying to "naturalize the presence of guns, which means that guns become ordinary, omnipresent, and expected. Over time, the gun becomes a symbol of ordinary personhood." OpenCarry.org, run by two Virginia gun lovers, claims 4,000 members nationwide. According to the Legal Community Against Violence in San Francisco, just seven states prohibit packing in public and eight restrict carrying handguns openly without a permit. Utah's OpenCarry activists put on a show for the Los Angeles Times a few weeks ago, trying to appear warm and fuzzy, shopping at Costco, just like you and me - but with their handguns flapping in the breeze. They meet once a month at restaurants like Denny's and Sweet Tomatoes to socialize. "We don't want to show up and say, 'Hey, we're here, we're armed, get used to it'," Kevin Jensen told the Times reporter. But that's just what the showdown in West Valley City was about. The cowed mayor and city council members referred the case to the officers' professional standards review board. Police are struggling to strike a balance between gun owners' rights and those of the rest of us. "There has to be some common sense on their part too; they have to take into consideration the concern that they cause other citizens," says Layton Police Chief Terry Keefe. "I do not walk around when I'm off-duty with a weapon displayed." Salt Lake City Police Chief Chris Burbank would rather gun owners get concealed weapon permits than carry openly. "In light of Trolley Square, mall shootings, school shootings, anyone walking around with a gun potentially creates a lot of phone calls for us," Burbank says. "How do you expect an officer to deal with that - other than to point a gun at them and go through the process [of elimination]? There's no other way to make that determination safely without putting officers at risk." Utah lawmakers set up this stalemate when they wrote the state's anything goes concealed weapon law. They deliberately left open a loophole for those who carry their guns out in the open. Under Utah law, open carriers must be 18 years-old and keep their bullets out of the chamber. That's it. No training, no background check required. "Second Amendment questions aside," says Springwood, a professor at Illinois Wesleyan University, "the real debate seems to me a cultural and social one: Do we want a society in which it is an unconscious emblem of everyday life that folks move about with 'portable killing machines' strapped to their bodies?" Legislators already have made that decision for us; we're living in the modern heart of the wild, wild West. walsh@sltrib.com http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9648769

ProblemSolver | 06-23-2008 09:56 AM
Re: "Open Carry" Under Assault In Utah Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Blade (Post 1158340) But the OpenCarry movement is a mystery to me. What kind of psychology - overcompensation, paranoia, antisocial personality - is behind that thinking? Steven Gunn, an attorney and board member of the Gun Violence Prevention Center of Utah, believes it's pure ego.
It's just a substitute for walking around with your d**k hanging out!:sarc: The first time I saw somebody open carry in Arizona, it made me look twice. Then I remembered that it was legal, and it didn't have it out, waving it around, shooting in the air. My only issue with open carry is that it makes you the number one target if someone is going to start something. While carrying concealed, you blend in until it's too late for the bad-guy. It makes sense, though, that someone who is looking to do wrong, ISN'T going to be carrying openly (unless he has two or three pistols, and is carrying a shotgun or MBR, and is going for a jog in the financial district, then I might be a little concerned).

AMforPM | 06-24-2008 01:31 AM
Re: "Open Carry" Under Assault In Utah He wore his gun outside his pants For all the honest world to feel YouTube - Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard...Pancho and Lefty
YouTube - Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard...Pancho and Lefty

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