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- - Less-than-lethal pistol ammo (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=343904)

nickelless | 01-29-2009 02:35 AM
Less-than-lethal pistol ammo I just found this link: http://www.dbcpyrotechnics.com/servl...MMO/Categories Under what circumstances would anyone want to have less-than-lethal ammo other than riot control?

BullionVince | 01-29-2009 02:42 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo I thought about this. I could see it being used for the first shot, to let the guy know you aren't messing around. Also if you are paranoid about your gun going off and not wanting to blow your own head off. From what I have heard it doesn't cycle after the first shot though. Which immediately turned me off about the whole concept.

Saul Mine | 01-29-2009 02:47 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo Ok, so you fire one of your duds at a guy. He thinks he is fighting for his life now, so he pulls out his piece and fires a REAL bullet at you. And he can't be prosecuted because it was self defense. What, did you expect something else to happen?

ruprick | 01-29-2009 02:50 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo Shoot to kill...... Sure....you were just shooting to stop the threat and it resulted in death..... When the gun comes out you better be ready to kill......otherwise you may be killed by simply drawing your gun.

luft97 | 01-29-2009 03:01 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo I don't understand this less than lethal mentality.. If you want less than lethal you have no business owning a gun, period.. As ruprick said if your going to shoot someone you better plan on killing the guy... You think that if you wound or scare a guy he is not going to come back for revenge full well knowing you don't have the guts to really pull the trigger? Think about it...

chad | 01-29-2009 08:48 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo i used to fire this type of stuff (and frnagible rounds) when i had an indoor range in my basement in south dakota. it's great for indoor target use, no chance of richocets.

NotTheOne | 01-29-2009 08:50 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo I think the explanation of the product is silly. If you think the guy was dangerous before you pulled out your gun, see how dangerous he is after you wound him. Simply, if you're going to hit someone, make sure he doesn't get back up.

Twisted Avatar | 01-29-2009 08:53 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo If I pull it out and squeeze. It will be a MINIMUM tripple tap to center mass. NOBODY IS GOING TO CONTRIDICATE THE STORY I GIVE. NOBODY. T

CrufflerJJ | 01-29-2009 09:04 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelless (Post 1537490) Under what circumstances would anyone want to have less-than-lethal ammo other than riot control?
Only if the person wanted to piss off their target & get smacked (or worse).

Cassius | 01-29-2009 09:24 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo There is a difference between less-than-lethal and nonlethal. It's called "less-than-lethal" because it can still kill, it's just not as likely to do so. I'm not sure about the law, but I'd be very wary about any less-than-lethal weapons as it might qualify as "deadly force" under your state laws in which case the only time you'd be lawfully allowed to use it in situations where you'd lawfully be allowed to shoot them with a real gun. Not sure about that but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case under some states' laws.

EE_ | 01-29-2009 10:21 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo http://www.sorochan.org/images/14/slingshots.jpg

Heimdhal | 01-29-2009 10:21 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo There example of the the lawsuit thing made a bit of sense, but it makes more sense to follow the addendum: If you have to shoot, shoot to kill. Now, whos to say you dont pop the guy one or two, he down and out(no longer a threat...dead.) Now you're waiting 15 or so minutes for the police to arrive. Pull out one of them thar' less than lethals, pop one at your wall or something. Cops show up "hey, i used this rubber bullet, I tried not to kill him, but I missed(or I hit him and he wasnt detered)." Might work......Though I dont advocate commiting perjury......

platinumdude | 01-29-2009 10:27 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo When I read the title I thought this was going to be an argument about .38 and 9mm not being enough.

Twisted Avatar | 01-29-2009 10:44 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimdhal (Post 1537907) There example of the the lawsuit thing made a bit of sense, but it makes more sense to follow the addendum: If you have to shoot, shoot to kill. Now, whos to say you dont pop the guy one or two, he down and out(no longer a threat...dead.) Now you're waiting 15 or so minutes for the police to arrive. Pull out one of them thar' less than lethals, pop one at your wall or something. Cops show up "hey, i used this rubber bullet, I tried not to kill him, but I missed(or I hit him and he wasnt detered)." Might work......Though I dont advocate commiting perjury......
And how do you plan to explain away to the jury that the medical examiner removed several 9mm Hollowpoint slugs from the Guy but when the subject weapon was turned over it had rubber bullets? Your credibilty is destroyed and the prosecution will milk it for everything. Stay with the story: I told him to stop and he kept coming, I was in fear of my life so I shot to stop him. THATS IT. Anything else? I DO NOT RECALL. T

Big_Rob | 01-29-2009 10:50 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo LOL!!! I only carry 230 Grain +P hollowpoints in my 45. If I am going to pull my pistol, that means I want you dead!!!! What if the guy is wearing a leather jacket or several layers of clothing??? UR F*CKED!!!

Twisted Avatar | 01-29-2009 10:55 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Rob (Post 1537944) LOL!!! I only carry 230 Grain +P hollowpoints in my 45. If I am going to pull my pistol, that means I want you dead!!!! What if the guy is wearing a leather jacket or several layers of clothing??? UR F*CKED!!!
...................

Mike C | 01-29-2009 12:39 PM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimdhal (Post 1537907) There example of the the lawsuit thing made a bit of sense, but it makes more sense to follow the addendum: If you have to shoot, shoot to kill. Now, whos to say you dont pop the guy one or two, he down and out(no longer a threat...dead.) Now you're waiting 15 or so minutes for the police to arrive. Pull out one of them thar' less than lethals, pop one at your wall or something. Cops show up "hey, i used this rubber bullet, I tried not to kill him, but I missed(or I hit him and he wasnt detered)." Might work......Though I dont advocate commiting perjury......
Depending on your state, if someone breaks in, armed or unarmed, you have the right to use deadly force. If you are using deadly force(a gun is deadly force), you might as well do it right and use it. Here in KY, the laws changed a few years ago to say that if someone breaks in, it is assumed your life is in danger, and you are allowed to protect your life by deadly force. If you shoot some teenager unarmed in the dark breaking into your house, so be it, you are still justified. You used to have to defend your actions, in other words, you had to show that your life was in danger. Not any more, and it is a good thing. Shoot to survive. Don't let them live to make a lie and sue you. It happens too much, they survive and the court process takes years and financially drains you.

hypervel | 01-29-2009 12:40 PM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo Less lethal? Taze him. While he's down, slit his throat....if you've got the balls.

Twisted Avatar | 01-29-2009 01:10 PM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike C (Post 1538145) Shoot to survive. Don't let them live to make a lie and sue you. It happens too much, they survive and the court process takes years and financially drains you.
Brother mikes speaks true. In a perfect world you would just shoot to scare off or shoot to wound.......but as the law stands now. It makes more sense to kill. You can thank to Liberals for that one. T

End of Hope | 01-29-2009 01:30 PM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo "Less than lethal" ammo? Why not just use a baseball bat? Unless you're a cop, you will be charged with assault with a deadly weapon for using "less than lethal" ammunition. You can't deploy deadly force ("less than lethal" is still potential deadly force) unless you are facing deadly force. Use of "less than lethal" is prima facie evidence to the courts that you did not fear for your life. If you "just wanted to scare them" then you have the hike of your life proving you felt in fear for your life. Never draw it unless you need to kill someone...and I mean "need," as in, they are going to kill you - imminent, unavoidable death or great bodily harm is looking at you.

End of Hope | 01-29-2009 01:32 PM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassius (Post 1537804) There is a difference between less-than-lethal and nonlethal. It's called "less-than-lethal" because it can still kill, it's just not as likely to do so. I'm not sure about the law, but I'd be very wary about any less-than-lethal weapons as it might qualify as "deadly force" under your state laws in which case the only time you'd be lawfully allowed to use it in situations where you'd lawfully be allowed to shoot them with a real gun. Not sure about that but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case under some states' laws.
People like Massad Ayoob would say it should never be used by a civilian. I don't trust cops, but the man speaks true on this topic.

End of Hope | 01-29-2009 01:36 PM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimdhal (Post 1537907) There example of the the lawsuit thing made a bit of sense, but it makes more sense to follow the addendum: If you have to shoot, shoot to kill. Now, whos to say you dont pop the guy one or two, he down and out(no longer a threat...dead.) Now you're waiting 15 or so minutes for the police to arrive. Pull out one of them thar' less than lethals, pop one at your wall or something. Cops show up "hey, i used this rubber bullet, I tried not to kill him, but I missed(or I hit him and he wasnt detered)." Might work......Though I dont advocate commiting perjury......
Say Hello to Big Tyrone, your new boyfriend. "I have nothing to say" and "I wish to speak with an attorney" are the only sane responses to the cops. And when you are in court, the strategy is: "the perpetrator entered my home, I feared that he was going to kill me, so I did what I felt I had to do for my own personal protection." NEVER EVER EVER EVER (!!!) say "I didn't want to kill him" or any other mitigating excuses. "Yes, I killed him, and I was justified to do so" is the only correct line of thought and word.

End of Hope | 01-29-2009 01:41 PM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Rob (Post 1537944) LOL!!! I only carry 230 Grain +P hollowpoints in my 45. If I am going to pull my pistol, that means I want you dead!!!! What if the guy is wearing a leather jacket or several layers of clothing??? UR F*CKED!!!
One caveat, which you may not (for good, honorable reasons) care about, is whether your choice of caliber & ammunition greatly exceed what local law enforcement uses. Most cops carry .40 and above with Speer GD or similar JHPs, so you're probably OK, but keep in mind that punk lawyers have and will again complain that there was "premeditation" when one uses effective manstopper ammunition, especially when it is significantly more powerful than local cops use. This risk diminishes or vanishes if the ammo you use is similar or exact to what your PD or SD uses.

latitude22 | 01-29-2009 02:22 PM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by BullionVince (Post 1537494) I thought about this. I could see it being used for the first shot, to let the guy know you aren't messing around. Also if you are paranoid about your gun going off and not wanting to blow your own head off.
People desiring a bullet for either purpose shouldn't be carrying a weapon. I do think it's neat that you assume you'll get a second shot after yer dummy round :)

Heimdhal | 01-29-2009 02:48 PM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo I should clear my (not so) good name here ;) What I made reference to was the description on the website, where it said you *COULD* load your first round with the non lethal stuff, shoot the guy, then follow up with real ammo if he wasnt detered as a means to protect yourself from litigation by saying "Loo,, i tried NOT to kill him." I am of the mindset that you pull your gun, you better be ready to pull that trigger and do so, as that is what the law says. I live in florida, we have very clear laws on the matter. I was just making a passive sarcastic remark. My .45's are loaded with Corbon hollow points, my shotguns are fed 9 pellet 00 buck. I've got two women and a little girl living in my house, I dont play around. But in some states, that would all be considered illegal, so I was just making a remark on the article that was linked...thats all....

Heimdhal | 01-29-2009 02:52 PM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by End of Hope (Post 1538270) One caveat, which you may not (for good, honorable reasons) care about, is whether your choice of caliber & ammunition greatly exceed what local law enforcement uses. Most cops carry .40 and above with Speer GD or similar JHPs, so you're probably OK, but keep in mind that punk lawyers have and will again complain that there was "premeditation" when one uses effective manstopper ammunition, especially when it is significantly more powerful than local cops use. This risk diminishes or vanishes if the ammo you use is similar or exact to what your PD or SD uses.
This is true and we see it all the time with 10mm ammo used in self defence. The prosecution almost always rails about how the 10mm hand gun round is grossly overpowered and that its simply unecessary and the person firing it wanted to just Rambo people and blah blah blah. Nevermind the fact that the 10mm was almost the choice for the FBI and LEO until they cut it in half and made the .40 cal(10mm short)cause small hand LEO's couldnt hold the guns properly. I think sticking with a 9mm, .40 or .45 is eveyrones best bet to avoid un warranted BS from the DA and also retain good ammo availability before or after SHTF :tongue_ma:

bfnelson | 01-29-2009 03:29 PM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimdhal (Post 1538376) This is true and we see it all the time with 10mm ammo used in self defence. The prosecution almost always rails about how the 10mm hand gun round is grossly overpowered and that its simply unecessary and the person firing it wanted to just Rambo people and blah blah blah. Nevermind the fact that the 10mm was almost the choice for the FBI and LEO until they cut it in half and made the .40 cal(10mm short)cause small hand LEO's couldnt hold the guns properly. I think sticking with a 9mm, .40 or .45 is eveyrones best bet to avoid un warranted BS from the DA and also retain good ammo availability before or after SHTF :tongue_ma:
Hmmm has anyone actually been convicted for an otherwise lawful defense using a 10mm? That seems kind of odd, a shotgun is much worse. I may have to get a .40 s&w barrel for mine.

Heimdhal | 01-29-2009 03:41 PM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by bfnelson (Post 1538443) Hmmm has anyone actually been convicted for an otherwise lawful defense using a 10mm? That seems kind of odd, a shotgun is much worse. I may have to get a .40 s&w barrel for mine.
Yes, they have. But please excuse my lack of links, as I am very inept at this internet searching thing. The most recent I can think of is the guy that was out hiking and said that there was some one hanging around he car when he came back from his remote area jog. The strangers two dogs apparently came after the guy, the guy fired a warning shot with his 10mm and scared the dogs. The stranger, thinking the dogs were shot, rushed the guy and the jogger put 3 rounds of 10mm into the attacker. Thats his account of it; it was posted here not too long ago. But thats not the important part, the important part was the DA going after the shooter like mad because he was carrying a 10mm which was considered 'cruel and unusual, meant to inflict pain and death' and all the non sense. The guy, who had 3 or 4 kids at home, got 10 years in jail for killing a known mental unstable, multiple time violent offender.

Big_Rob | 01-30-2009 12:37 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo Thank God I live in Florida! 10mm for self defense is a-ok!!!

Twisted Avatar | 01-30-2009 12:44 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimdhal (Post 1538470) the DA going after the shooter like mad because he was carrying a 10mm which was considered 'cruel and unusual, meant to inflict pain and death' .
The attacker is the "victim" and the victim is the "attacker" Shyt like that gets me mad.........REAL MAD.

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madfranks | 01-30-2009 09:07 AM
Re: Less-than-lethal pistol ammo Quote:
Originally Posted by End of Hope (Post 1538266) Say Hello to Big Tyrone, your new boyfriend. "I have nothing to say" and "I wish to speak with an attorney" are the only sane responses to the cops. And when you are in court, the strategy is: "the perpetrator entered my home, I feared that he was going to kill me, so I did what I felt I had to do for my own personal protection." NEVER EVER EVER EVER (!!!) say "I didn't want to kill him" or any other mitigating excuses. "Yes, I killed him, and I was justified to do so" is the only correct line of thought and word.
Wow... you know, I read that post above and it didn't even didn't occur to me that those were not the words to use. This forum is definitely a good place to learn things.

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