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General of Darkness | 11-16-2009 07:14 PM
Let's talk SAFES. I without a doubt need a safe. I was eyeing this Safari from Sam's club, with free deliver. It's a 24 gun safe, plus fire resistant. So I figured I could also store ammo and some PM's in there. Here's the link and I'm a complete noob concerning safes so any advice would be appreciated. Specifications # Weight: 450 lbs # Dimensions: 60H x 30W x 21D # 24 gun capacity # 1" locking bolts # 3 layer armor plate protects lock # Thick 1" composite door # 3 point handle # Spring loaded re-locker keeps safe locked- even after lock has been removed # Internal hinges # Upholstered shelving & internal walls # Shelves sit on tracks which allow shelves to be raised or lowered # 5/8 type x fire liner covers every wall including door # 1200 degrees for 30 min. # Heat activated expandable in tumescent fire seal helps keep smoke and heat out # Unibody construction is stronger # Predrilled bottom for bolting to floor - I life this feature # Heavy steel construction # UL RSC security rated # Commercial grade group 2 combination lock with a key locking dial http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/nav...g=6983#reviews

TechGuy | 11-16-2009 07:18 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. This should get you started. http://www.brownsafe.com/categories/faq/faq.htm False Safe Construction Ratings No Recognized Rating - Nearly half of all top selling safe brands fall into this category. The only rating they bear, if any, is based on a system the manufacturer creates on their own that has no correlation to any industry recognized standard. This is an avoidance tactic used to mask safes that provide an unacceptable level of protection. Avoid these safes. Theft Resistant - This rating simply acknowledges that the safe has a lock on it, no other protection level is guaranteed or implied. This type of safe construction provides roughly the same level of protection as a locked file cabinet, which can also carry this same rating. RSC (Residential Security Container)(TL-5) Rating - This is a UL rated container that certifies the "safe" is capable of withstanding a beating by one man wielding a hammer and small crowbar for up to five minutes. Another way of putting it...One man armed with only a hammer and crowbar can generally gain access to these safes in just over five minutes. Safes bearing this safe construction rating make up the remaining half of top selling safe brands, with very few exceptions. Do not put anything of value in these safes. "Safes" or containers of this type tend to list their steel thickness by gauge. Common gauges range from 10 to 20 (see the chart above to see how incredibly thin this really is). Due to the high cost of steel, many of these same companies will combine the measurement of their steel plating thickness with the thickness of their drywall fireproofing panels, reporting one combined measurement in a manner that intentionally sways the uninformed buyer into assuming the quoted wall or door thickness is all solid steel or a similar protective material. This one underhanded trick has met with such resounding success it has been adopted in various forms by nearly every major safe builder. The easiest way to spot these counterfeit safes when uncertain about the reported steel plating thickness is to check the safes weight. A 60 inch tall false safes will weigh between 300 and 800 lbs with fire protection. True safes of this size start at 600 lbs without fire protection and jump up into the 1500+ pound range with fire protection. True Safe Construction Ratings Class B Rating - Weighing in at 2 to 4 times the mass of an RSC safe, Class B safes are a vast step up in protection. A Class B safe is equipped with a 1/2 inch solid steel door and 1/4 inch solid steel walls on all 5 sides. At it's core, this is a safe with a substantial foundation, one capable of easily resisting hours of brute force abuse by amateur criminals. These safes will generally be capable of withstanding entry attempts by semi-skilled criminals for an hour or more depending largely on the types of tools used to attempt entry. Safes outfitted with additional burglary countermeasures will withstand even skilled attackers for sustained periods. Class C Rating - Double the weight of a Class B with double the steel thickness all around. Class C safes are yet another major upgrade in protection with a 1" steel door and a 1/2" steel body. Class C safes provide roughly double the penetration protection and tend to have roughly the same amount of added burglary countermeasures as class B rated safes. Class E (TL-15) Rating - Now this is where things start to get interesting. The class E's start off with an impressive 1 1/2 inch solid steel door, a 1 inch body and a weight average that is 3 times the mass of a Class B. With fire cladding, a mid sized Class E safe weighs as much as a mid sized car... making these safes extremely difficult to haul out of homes on the sly. These safes can easily withstand any manner of attacks by amateur and semi-trained burglars for a far longer time than the criminal has time for. But as impressively tough as a Class E is, their TL-15 rating means that an assisted seasoned safecracker with intimate knowledge of the inner working of the safe and safe specific tools can gain entrance to the safe in as little as 16 minutes, though usually much longer. If the contents of your safe are important enough to give you cause to believe this type of person may someday be attempting access to your safe with more than 15 minutes of time on their hands, you'll want to step up to even higher protection ratings. Class F (TL-30) rating - These safes have been tested to withstand attack for at least 30 minutes by a group of professional safecrackers armed with blueprints of the safe using the full gamut of tools and attack methods. The steel on Class F safes often incorporates additional layers of varying metal aimed at further slowing entry attempts. In addition, Class F safes commonly employ additional features to further slow down professional attackers. A whole array of measures and counter-measures come into play at this level of the safe vs safecracker game and safe builder defense methods vary widely in their approach and design. Class M rating - The M rating is the highest standard rating Brown Safe offers and one of the highest protection levels available anywhere. M rated safes are currently only manufactured by Brown Safe. To learn more about this rating, click here.

TechGuy | 11-16-2009 07:21 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. I would not store PM's in a gun safe.

Dave Thomas | 11-16-2009 07:28 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. See this thread: http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=331472 Most gun safes can basically be "Peeled". They take a fire axe and pop the thing open like a beer can. It's only 12 ga steel with drywall in the middle. A gun safe is basically a crackhead deterrent.

J in AZ | 11-16-2009 07:31 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by General of Darkness (Post 2028797) I without a doubt need a safe. I was eyeing this Safari from Sam's club, with free deliver. It's a 24 gun safe, plus fire resistant. So I figured I could also store ammo and some PM's in there.
I was also constantly eyeing the safes at Sam's Club and Costco but I decided to get one from http://www.sturdysafe.com/ instead (7 gauge body, 5/16" door). The gun safes you see in stores (even the local safe store) seem like tuna cans in comparison. Sturdy Safe make a nice, sturdy safe but they are sort of plain looking, I can live with that.

AZLiberty | 11-16-2009 08:24 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. The odds of someone breaking into your home are lower than a house fire. Thus I think it's worth upgrading the fire protection to 60 minutes. External hinges are better than internal hinges. They let you take the door off for moving, and a proper safe does not use the hinges as part of the securing mechanism. J in AZ, those sturdysafes look pretty nice (who needs a pretty outside?) no pricing on their website though. *grumble* I've been looking at the sportsmans steel safes. http://www.sportsmansteelsafes.com/special_forces.htm Prredrilled for mounting anchors, free delivery (for me in AZ) 820 lbs.

hoarder | 11-16-2009 08:38 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. A shovel costs less than a safe. Don't put anything in a safe that you don't want our rulers to confiscate. I guess in Aztlan you have to worry about non-government thieves too. I use a low quality gun safe for items I need to use often and bury the rest.

Bx3 | 11-16-2009 09:46 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Thomas (Post 2028818) See this thread: http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=331472 Most gun safes can basically be "Peeled". They take a fire axe and pop the thing open like a beer can. It's only 12 ga steel with drywall in the middle. A gun safe is basically a crackhead deterrent.
I disagree with the above statement. While some safes can certainly be breached (cheap), high quality (expensive) safes do not suffer from this vulnerability. I think that in today's day and age you are at a significantly higher risk of being the victim of a armed home invasion. If your family is present, you will open that safe for them. A concealed main safe with the addition of a smaller sucker safe can help mitigate this possibility. That being said, I am all in favor of the pirate treasure method for certain possessions. Bx3

Kregener | 11-16-2009 09:52 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Spend money on a real safe or forget the whole idea...

MOD1 | 11-16-2009 10:06 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. As a deterrent, a heavy and sturdy RSC that is bolted to a slab floor is better than nothing. If someone really wants in, they'll get in. A closed mouth is your best defense. Don't advertise. Take care, Mod1

Willie Peter | 11-16-2009 10:17 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. You may have seen this before.... You Tube
You Tube

Dave Thomas | 11-16-2009 10:21 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx3 (Post 2029092) I disagree with the above statement.
Well yeah, I looked at a Graffunder but it ended up being more than what I was going to put into it. Non withstanding the delivery. But yeah, you could have the biggest baddest safe in the world, but with a gun to your head you'll open it.

graspAU | 11-16-2009 10:25 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Thomas (Post 2029166) Well yeah, I looked at a Graffunder but it ended up being more than what I was going to put into it. Non withstanding the delivery. But yeah, you could have the biggest baddest safe in the world, but with a gun to your head you'll open it.
Graffunder is about the only ones I would consider. A D or E rate safe costs an arm and a leg. I like the Amsec TL15, but just too big for me.

General of Darkness | 11-17-2009 12:00 AM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Man you guys are bumming me out. Just an FYI, for the past 4 months I've been allowing my dogs to stay in the house when I'm at work since there's been some break-ins. Yes I know that dogs are only a deterrent, but on both sides of me there are people that stay at home and one dog is a rottie and the other a shepard. I'm don't have a bunch classic fire arms or anything like that. Just stuff I don't want to be stolen.

Herbicidal | 11-17-2009 12:24 AM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. You don't need a safe.... just buy a boat...

General of Darkness | 11-17-2009 12:26 AM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbicidal (Post 2029374) You don't need a safe.... just buy a boat...
Smart behind. :signs1:

J in AZ | 11-17-2009 12:31 AM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Quote:
Originally Posted by AZLiberty (Post 2028928) J in AZ, those sturdysafes look pretty nice (who needs a pretty outside?) no pricing on their website though. *grumble*
Request a quote via email and they will reply with a current price list. :coolbeer:

Srben | 11-17-2009 04:47 AM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Quote:
Originally Posted by General of Darkness (Post 2029337) Man you guys are bumming me out. Just an FYI, for the past 4 months I've been allowing my dogs to stay in the house when I'm at work since there's been some break-ins. Yes I know that dogs are only a deterrent, but on both sides of me there are people that stay at home and one dog is a rottie and the other a shepard. I'm don't have a bunch classic fire arms or anything like that. Just stuff I don't want to be stolen.
Every thread I've ever seen about safes has gone this way. You might as well ask whether 9mm or .45 is better, or which motor oil is best. The best safe, imo, is the one you can afford. Given the time and tools, thieves will get into anything. Don't let the experts scare you into Fort Knox and a 60k safe. Get the best you can afford, but all safes just slow them down, stops the smash and grab types, and provides fire protection. The guy above was right: if they put a gun to your head, you'll open it anyway.

hoarder | 11-17-2009 08:02 AM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Invest your money in GASOLINE instead. Get the heck out of Mexifornia! It has already been conquered and annexed into Mehico.

tulsamal | 11-17-2009 08:10 AM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Quote:
The easiest way to spot these counterfeit safes when uncertain about the reported steel plating thickness is to check the safes weight. A 60 inch tall false safes will weigh between 300 and 800 lbs with fire protection. True safes of this size start at 600 lbs without fire protection and jump up into the 1500+ pound range with fire protection.
Yay, somebody else is noticing this. Safe prices went up and up. Then no safes in some stores for a while. Then they got new ones and prices were closer to where they used to be. So I would "thump" them with my open hand on the sides and top. They sounded and felt like steel cabinets you would use to lock up paint. Amazingly thin. And most of the time the specifications hanging on the door will list everything _but_ steel thickness. So, as the quote suggests, I started looking at weight. I will agree with a couple of other people though. A lightweight "safe" is still better than having them under the bed. It will stop the five minute smash and grab types. Gregg

Private_Pyle | 11-17-2009 08:44 AM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. I won't open a safe with a gun to my head. If it has gotten to the point where someone is in my home and has a gun to my head, I'm already dead. Do you think you'll open the safe and they'll take what they want and tell you to have a nice day? No, as soon as you open the safe you'll be lucky to take one step backward before getting a bullet in the head anyway. If I'm going to die, I'm not going to make it easy for my attackers to get what they came for.

EE_ | 11-17-2009 08:49 AM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Quote:
Originally Posted by Private_Pyle (Post 2029653) I won't open a safe with a gun to my head. If it has gotten to the point where someone is in my home and has a gun to my head, I'm already dead. Do you think you'll open the safe and they'll take what they want and tell you to have a nice day? No, as soon as you open the safe you'll be lucky to take one step backward before getting a bullet in the head anyway. If I'm going to die, I'm not going to make it easy for my attackers to get what they came for.
But what if they stick that gun in your wife's or child's head?

silverbullet | 11-17-2009 09:11 AM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. I've been a LEO for 23 years...9 as a supervisor (shut up already I don't want to hear it..) I have NEVER seen entry made into any type of gun safe for a residential or commercial burglary. Burglars want to get in and out quickly. Money, booze, guns, maybe some small electronics that they can carry. Stuff that's in plain view or hidden in the more obvious hiding places. They will not take the time to make entry into any type of decent safe. I'm not saying there aren't professional burglars out there that wouldn't try, but 99.9% will not. What doesn't work? The "Sentry" type of fire safes. They don't get broken into, they get carried away and opened later. We find these thrown along the highway quite often. The "Stack-On" type of gun "safes' from wally-world don't work, either. They are basically just a sheet-metal gun cabinet. Great for keeping the guns away from the kids, but anybody that really wants in will just pry the door with a screwdriver. They do what they are designed to do, but don't depend on them as a safe. This is the actually the only type I've seen entered by a burglar, but I don't conside these as 'safes'. He pried several of this type of cabinet secured to the floor of a garage. Made off with about 30 guns while the owner was in the hospital. (Somebody knew they were there, and knew the house was temporarily empty...) In short, lock your stuff up in the best safe you can afford, then keep your mouth shut. You will be safe from the vast majority of burglars out there, even if they do decide to randomly choose your house.

Private_Pyle | 11-17-2009 09:22 AM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. In my mind, I've already lost all there is to lose. The whole family is dead either way if it gets to the point of armed attackers taking hostages in my home. People who are that ruthless would rather kill you than give you the time of day, let alone leave you alive to recant the attack and offer a description to the police. I don't see any situation getting to the point of hostages anyway. There will be a fire fight long before it gets to that point and one side will be dead. I also have a window sticker on the rear of my home that states "There's nothing in here worth dying for" just to help get the message across. Security is an onion. It starts by keeping your mouth shut and not making your home a target. Exterior lighting and low landscaping help. Alarm company signs in the yard help to take away some of the appeal of targeting your house. Having and using a good, monitored alarm is the next step. A large dog is the next step to warn people peaking in the window. A firearm is the last line when you are home and a good, properly installed safe is the last line of defense when you are away.

johndoh | 11-17-2009 11:57 AM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Craigslist may be your friend here You live in a major metro area, so with a little patience, it shouldn't be too hard to find one at a half that price. I paid $300 for a 30"wide x 60" tall gun safe at an estate sale, last year. It did cost me an additional $75 to have my movers (who I trust) pick up and deliver the 450 lb beast. Plus another $20 at Home Despot for the 4 Dynabolts and a 5/8" masonry bit.

Twisted Avatar | 11-17-2009 12:16 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Thomas (Post 2029166) Well yeah, I looked at a Graffunder but it ended up being more than what I was going to put into it. Non withstanding the delivery. But yeah, you could have the biggest baddest safe in the world, but with a gun to your head you'll open it.
Which is why you..........

morganchaser | 11-17-2009 02:05 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Craigslist is the only place to buy safes, and remember to change the combo. I've always thought that a savy thief might sell safes on craigslist on the hopes the new owner wouldn't change the combo. For guns: store them in whatever you want. Antiques are the only thing worth storing in a high quality safe. Safe is supposed to cost 1/10 the value of it's contents.(craigslist is an exception to this rule. The rule only applies to new retail value) You can't buy a gun safe secure enough to keep an attacker out. Your best bet for guns is a giant composite/ceramic floor safe. Make them take the foundation with them. Great reason to specialize in C&R firearms. Best bang for your buck, and it doesn't hurt so bad if they get stolen.

TechGuy | 11-17-2009 02:39 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 2030129) Craigslist is the only place to buy safes, and remember to change the combo.
People sometimes pawn off safes that have been 'repaired'. DYODD with a bright light. Trust me. PM if needed.

hernancortes | 11-17-2009 02:39 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Peter (Post 2029151) You may have seen this before.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBhOjWHbD6M
I grant that that was a very overrated safe, but the guys in that vid had leverage out the wazoo.... the first thing they did was knock it over. They would'nt have had leverage if that safe was bolted to the floor and was located in the corner or next to a wall.

TechGuy | 11-17-2009 02:47 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Quote:
Originally Posted by hernancortes (Post 2030199) I grant that that was a very overrated safe, but the guys in that vid had leverage out the wazoo.... the first thing they did was knock it over. They would'nt have had leverage if that safe was bolted to the floor and was located in the corner or next to a wall.
I would like to see that attempted with a generic gun safe that was properly bolted down.

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Operation Grief | 11-17-2009 03:21 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Quote:
Originally Posted by EE_ (Post 2029658) But what if they stick that gun in your wife's or child's head?
Everyone in the house is dead anyway. Might as well go out fighting. Like they used to say in The Bowery Boys—"Routine 6!"

Iptuous | 11-17-2009 03:27 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Quote:
Originally Posted by Operation Grief (Post 2030279) Everyone in the house is dead anyway. Might as well go out fighting. Like they used to say in The Bowery Boys�"Routine 6!"
Do you have kids?

Operation Grief | 11-17-2009 03:34 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Quote:
Originally Posted by Iptuous (Post 2030286) Do you have kids?
Not anymore. They were killed after I opened my safe.

Jaxon | 11-17-2009 04:11 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. I've never heard any manufacturer claim their safe could effectively resist a threat of cranial perforation. Although you could lock yourself inside your safe to thwart the attack, I don't think it's something they're designed to do. Know the limitations of your safe.

morganchaser | 11-18-2009 02:10 AM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. If you're concerned about a gun to head situation: perhaps countermeasures should be taken in anticipation? A good unexpected flash of light preceding a blackout is advantageous for someone who knows when to close their eyes. By hooking up an alarm to the safe that requires deactivation prior to retraction of the locking bolt/door bolts perhaps? Pepper spray grenades make it hard to shoot, and if you know the room floorplan: escape easier. The handle to the safe can conceal a custom made derringer/stun gun. Bullets are not designed to overpenetrate so a stunned bad guy can make a good bulletproof vest for an accomplice who is more interested in neutralising the violent hostage, than he is in completing his threatened execution. Use a dummy safe, keep your valuables elsewhere: and locate your safe based on ambushing your captor instead of trying to locate it in a secure location. A narrow hallway with a machine gun hidden in the drywall that mows down anyone who doesn't duck immediately after the last beep of the combination for instance.(saiga12 with rubber buckshot if you want to be safe about it) Suppose a hostage taker has your children in another room. His accomplice gets splattered. Is he going to spend his human shields on spite? Maybe, but more likely: he's going to get scared and cling to them as they represent his control leverage. He'll position them between himself and you so that he doesn't have to divide his attention. Get inside the head of your adversary, and create an environment that causes his instincts to work against him.

mick silver | 11-18-2009 02:31 AM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. the best safe around maybe out in your back yard .... tools needed shovel . dig a big deep hole .... put your metals in ..... repeat cover the hole and place a nice b ig rock over the new keylesss safe

Lars Ragnarsson | 11-18-2009 03:12 AM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. There's been a bunch of burglaries in this area of Veteran's clubs. Many of them operate lounges, and they also do lots of fundraising. In other words, it's no secret they operate with a lot of cash. The one in my town got robbed, and they took the whole safe. It wasn't noted how big it was, but at least these guys were prepared - they'd moved the cash somewhere else after hearing of the other burglaries. The video in the link shows a couple of seconds of a safe that was cut open in another burglary. Looks like a typical gun safe, but I couldn't make out a brand. The article quotes one of the guys from the post as saying it looked like it was cut open with a type of circular saw. Again, it shows that most safes can be penetrated if the perp has the time and equipment. But the point about a good safe being 99% effective in most typical burglaries is also valid. FWIW.... http://www.weartv.com/newsroom/top_s...vid_4821.shtml

CyberGold | 11-18-2009 10:13 AM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. For 200 more get the wide body - youll be glad your did

platinumdude | 11-18-2009 02:17 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Can those sentry safes be bolted to the wall, or just the floor?

PALLADIUM | 11-18-2009 04:22 PM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. My parents operated a bowling alley for many years and it was burgled on occasion. Once they came into the office and found that their 1700 lb safe had been moved and found an empty shoe underneath..............

Mike C | 11-19-2009 12:22 AM
Re: Let's talk SAFES. Quote:
Originally Posted by AZLiberty (Post 2028928) The odds of someone breaking into your home are lower than a house fire. Thus I think it's worth upgrading the fire protection to 60 minutes. External hinges are better than internal hinges. They let you take the door off for moving, and a proper safe does not use the hinges as part of the securing mechanism. J in AZ, those sturdysafes look pretty nice (who needs a pretty outside?) no pricing on their website though. *grumble* I've been looking at the sportsmans steel safes. http://www.sportsmansteelsafes.com/special_forces.htm Prredrilled for mounting anchors, free delivery (for me in AZ) 820 lbs.
The odds of someone breaking into your home are FAR greater than a house fire, unless, of course, you live on a volcano. Simple way to see this point is ask your friends who has had their houses broken into and who has had their houses catch on fire. Everyone knows someone that has had a house broken into, but few know of houses that have caught on fire. BTW, our city averages about 50 break-ins a day, and maybe 3 house fires a week.

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