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BullionVince | 06-12-2009 12:02 PM
How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Well the summer season is upon the delivery drivers/cab drivers in my city. In the past 3 months I have been watching the headlines in the local newspapers. "Delivery Driver Brutally Assaulted by 3 Black Gunmen" and "Cab Driver Beaten Unconscious by 3 Black Assailants" and my favorite "Elderly Couple Carrying in Groceries Beaten With Pipe by 3 Black Perps." I simply can't afford a CCW with all the bills I have. I want one so unbelievably bad right now it's not funny. Not to mention I would have to buy another weapon to boot. My Glock 21 is a freaking hand cannon and way too big for a CCW anyway. So what if I kept it in my trunk with a couple of loaded mags hidden on my person? Are we talking years or probation or what? I do carry a Seal Pup Elite with me sometimes, like I will be tonight when I work. However the articles usually mention the suspects have a shotgun, and 2 pistols. So a knife won't do any good if I get jumped. I don't have much I could do anyway without a small 9mm or compact .45 fully loaded and ready to pull. I would without a doubt lose my job if I was found out to have either a knife or a handgun. I don't care so much about that as long as I live. So what are my options?

JJ_ | 06-12-2009 12:21 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Quote:
Originally Posted by BullionVince (Post 1766658) So a knife won't do any good if I get jumped.
Neither would a gun in the trunk... just sayin' If you think you must be armed and you can't carry ON your person, stick it under the seat - And do NOT get caught.

AG Capone | 06-12-2009 12:22 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Depends on the state. Your plan would be legal in Texas for example.

BullionVince | 06-12-2009 12:28 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? You know of all the times I've been pulled over I have never been told they want to search the car because I come off as the generally scared witless good christian kid. Second when the delivery topper is on the car I NEVER get pulled over no matter how stupid I am. I once was talking on the cell phone and abruptly swerved into another lane and cut off a cop. The lights went on and I pulled over. I swear he gave me the finger and kept on driving. Either that or he was pointing, dunno. So it's not like they are going to check or anything. They generally don't like bothering us when we are working. The problem is going to come AFTER I bag the bad guys and everyone starts asking for permits and paperwork. Then I will be in some trouble. The state is MN where that is a big big no-no.

Bx3 | 06-12-2009 12:29 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Have you thought about the bear sized cans of pepper spray? I'm talking the big assed cans, not the little key chain models. http://www.udap.com/ or http://www.defensedevices.com/bearpepspray.html

Heimdhal | 06-12-2009 12:34 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? take the class, for whatever cost, around here is about 60-70 with ammo included. Pay the 10 for the fingerprint card. You have, roughly, 90 days to submit it before you have the class over again. The license fee here in florida is $117 so wait a few weeks to save up the $117 and then send it all in when you have it. Helps break the cost up. Could be different in your state though. In florida, you can keep your loaded gun in the center console, glove box, etc. Anywhere wher eit is "securely encased" Now, a properly concealed weapon is just that, concealed. So if the fee REALLY is too steep or the wait too long(over 100 day wait right now in florida) then youll have to decide how bad you want to carry. Dont tell ANYBODY you carry, even at work. Its not their business, whether you are licensed or not. Get a little Kel Tec P3at or PF9, which are both real nice pocket pisolts. You can put it in your back pocket with a decent pocket holster and itll look like a wallet. You can put it in your front pocket too, if you arent a person(like me) who compulsivley puts their hands in the pockets ALL the time. I used to do delievery, so I fully understand where you are coming from. EDIT: In Florida it is a class 3? FELONY to carry concealed without a license. In Tennessee it is a Misdomeanor. So it really REALLY depends on your state on how big of a wrist slap you get.

BullionVince | 06-12-2009 12:41 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Another thing I am thinking is using the car as a weapon. If they get the jump on me and I am near the car it's doable. Head down, take a quick vector, hit the gas, and wait for the thump of the body. It's sort of like sub hunting. I want to keep my options open. The people in this city are angry. They really really want these guys dead or the cops to do something. It's almost like the Churchill cry of "Sink the Bismark" and put every ship a sail. Only here it's "Kill the darkies" and arm every citizen. No I'm not racist but damn. It's the same descriptions in each robbery of 3 black guys. In NORTHERN MINNESOTA. LOL!!!

obilly | 06-12-2009 12:44 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? couple years in prison is better than being dead

AlterEgo | 06-12-2009 12:47 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? You live and work their by choice. My advice is to suck it up and move. Aaaahhhhh, but that would be a hardship, and the young ones do not want any hardship.

Matt-themaddog-Dollar | 06-12-2009 01:54 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? People carry drugs on their person all the time and don't get caught. Chances are, you won't get caught. I say carry illegally, and gradually save up enough for a permit.

TTAZZMAN | 06-12-2009 05:42 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? i am not familure with MN.....but most states allow transporting a gun with various methods. IE ....to and from a gun range...to and from hunting...etc you might learn your states transport laws......then the only issue is the CCW part of the issue.

YellowDog | 06-12-2009 06:21 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Quote:
Originally Posted by BullionVince (Post 1766729) It's the same descriptions in each robbery of 3 black guys. In NORTHERN MINNESOTA. LOL!!!
Maybe it's actually the same 3 guys, perpetrating multiple robberies!

meatman | 06-12-2009 06:26 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? http://www.madfi.org/post/fact_sheet.pdf your Fu*ked get out of MN move to SD

Shasta Gold | 06-12-2009 06:49 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Put a pistol or revolver, loaded, into this: http://www.amazon.com/Secure-It-Secu.../dp/B000HBB15U That way, it's almost instantaneously available, but, in case a cop stops you, he must get a warrant to get inside the box. http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal...state-laws.php

Ringhunter | 06-12-2009 06:58 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Sounds like you need to hit the right 3 black perps first and all problems solved

voodoo1951 | 06-12-2009 07:32 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Quote:
Originally Posted by meatman (Post 1767134) http://www.madfi.org/post/fact_sheet.pdf your Fu*ked get out of MN move to SD
Listen to meatman my brother...truer words were never spoken. U R screwed on all levels. Just hope you can get out of whatever toilet of a city you live in ASAP and by all means, follow your gut instinct and keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut...VD51

____hoot____ | 06-13-2009 04:49 AM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Put a supersized can of Walmart carb cleaner under your seat. Makes pepper spray seem like nice nice.

Juandisimo | 06-13-2009 05:10 AM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Come on down to Ga. We'll find you a job, get you carry permit for 40 bucks and you'll LOVE the weather. No more cold winters. The food is Unbelievable. Only one thing better than livin in the South and thats Eatin in the South! And I haven't even started on what southern girls are like!

etc | 06-13-2009 12:15 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? CCW is a trojan horse, they have a list of everyone who is active and "stands out", eventually when confiscation hits, they know exactly where to go. *Bad idea*. Even from the standpoint of rights, you shouldn't have to apply for a right.

elroy | 06-13-2009 02:54 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Suck it up and spend the money to get a permit. If it is that important to you then you can find a way to do it. Spending the money is better than risking a felony record. Indiana is now offering a lifetime permit. Yes it is more expensive but it is a one time deal. I always thought it is better to have it than to wait until you think you need it and maybe can't get it. I'll never let my CCW lapse or my CDL license. In the future these things may be easier to keep than to get a new one.

viking | 06-13-2009 04:52 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? $100 for the class and $100 for the permit, takes about two weeks after you apply. If you had a vehicle with no trunk, just put an unloaded gun in the back with a string on it going up to the driver. Have a magazine upfront with you. Very quick to get the gun and load, and legal. Straight from a Mpls. police officer.

WAoG | 06-13-2009 05:29 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Sounds like you can put pistol in safe unloaded. Keep loaded mag next to safe and you are obeying their scummy law. Practice and you could get the whole thing down to a few seconds?

WAoG | 06-13-2009 05:50 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? "unloaded" To transport a pistol in a motor vehicle, snowmobile or boat if the pistol is unloaded, contained in a closed and fastened case, gun box, or securely tied package. The key word is unloaded. Here a pistol is not loaded if a round is not in the chamber (Barrel) but in the big city here in this state that will not fly or so I'm told. So depending on how they take unloaded. You might be able to keep loaded mag in gun if no round in chamber?

desertjack | 06-13-2009 06:11 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Belly bands are great for concealing fullsized handguns; or you could trade the 21 for something smaller like a 26 or 27.

madfranks | 06-13-2009 06:37 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterEgo (Post 1766736) You live and work their by choice. My advice is to suck it up and move. Aaaahhhhh, but that would be a hardship, and the young ones do not want any hardship.
Your comments are ignorant. Hardship has nothing to do with it and suggesting that BullionVince is a lazy whiner because he hasn't packed up and left his home because he has questions on the laws there is uncalled for.

Caligula | 06-13-2009 06:57 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Quote:
Originally Posted by etc (Post 1767983) CCW is a trojan horse, they have a list of everyone who is active and "stands out", eventually when confiscation hits, they know exactly where to go. *Bad idea*. Even from the standpoint of rights, you shouldn't have to apply for a right.
If they start conficating....you wimps better start shooting.

Twisted Avatar | 06-17-2009 10:03 AM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Quote:
Originally Posted by Caligula (Post 1768525) If they start conficating....you wimps better start shooting.
Amen on that. The point of no return has been reached. T

Canadian-guerilla | 06-17-2009 10:12 AM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? electrify the back seat rig up something to the ignition coil(?) gee officer, must be faulty wiring

FireMattMillen | 06-17-2009 10:21 AM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Quote:
Originally Posted by BullionVince (Post 1766658) Well the summer season is upon the delivery drivers/cab drivers in my city. In the past 3 months I have been watching the headlines in the local newspapers. "Delivery Driver Brutally Assaulted by 3 Black Gunmen" and "Cab Driver Beaten Unconscious by 3 Black Assailants" and my favorite "Elderly Couple Carrying in Groceries Beaten With Pipe by 3 Black Perps." I simply can't afford a CCW with all the bills I have. I want one so unbelievably bad right now it's not funny. Not to mention I would have to buy another weapon to boot. My Glock 21 is a freaking hand cannon and way too big for a CCW anyway. So what if I kept it in my trunk with a couple of loaded mags hidden on my person? Are we talking years or probation or what? I do carry a Seal Pup Elite with me sometimes, like I will be tonight when I work. However the articles usually mention the suspects have a shotgun, and 2 pistols. So a knife won't do any good if I get jumped. I don't have much I could do anyway without a small 9mm or compact .45 fully loaded and ready to pull. I would without a doubt lose my job if I was found out to have either a knife or a handgun. I don't care so much about that as long as I live. So what are my options?
I don't know how much jail time you would get if caught carrying a concealed, loaded handgun without a permit - that depends on how many thousands of dollars you spend on legal fees. The same is true if you are involved in a shooting, except the bills will be much higher.

berserker | 06-17-2009 10:15 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? IMHO, you should really think about how things would play out if you actually used an illegally carried firearm to defend yourself. Even if justified, you could likely be screwed. If you tried to hide the act, you're in for years of worry. Either buck up and pay for the permit, even if you have to take a loan, or carry something that is not as detrimental as an illegal handgun. The anti-gun mentality that is so prevalent makes it so if you don't have all of your ducks in a row someone is likely to charge you. You could consider carrying something like this if you want to go short of a handgun (or in addition to it). http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum3908.php (this is just the first website that I found the item on when I searched) a leather sap is a VERY effective defensive weapon, is easy to carry and worst case scenario is probably considered a concealed weapon (not concealed firearm), which in most places is a misdemeanor, not a felony. Even if stopped on street by a police officer, if your are polite and reasonable, I doubt if they would care much. The most important thing in self defense, is to develop a survival mentality so that, once you are in a position where you have decided you have to act; act quickly, aggressively and do not stop until the threat is gone. Then remove yourself from the area and regroup. If you have this mentality, a sap is quite an effective weapon.

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tekrunner | 06-17-2009 10:26 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? You have the right to bear arms. Period. If you use it to defend yourself and someone says it was illegal for you to have then you shouldn't have quit shooting.

St. Germain | 06-17-2009 11:06 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Not nearly enough. Pack lube. Or not. Enjoy the ride.

mick silver | 06-17-2009 11:09 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? if your writing an talking about ............ a long time

low_five | 06-18-2009 03:05 AM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? antique firearms are guns made before 1899. they generally dont fire ammo that uses a cartridge, which means powder and a wad. Plenty of people were killed by "6 shooters" of the old west, though. you ask, "how does this affect me low_five, why do I give a shit about antique firearms" more at this link http://www.rawles.to/Pre-1899_FAQ.html Quote:
Q: What constitutes "antique" under U.S. law? A: Although your State and local laws may vary, any firearm with a frame or receiver that actually made before Jan. 1, 1899 is legally "antique" and not considered a "firearm" under Federal law. This refers to the actual date of manufacture of the receiver/frame, not just model year or patent date marked. (For example, only ***low serial number*** Winchester Model 1894 lever actions are actually antique.) No FFL is required to buy or sell antiques across state lines. They are in the same legal category as a muzzle loading replica. I regularly ship them right to people's doorstep via UPS, with no "paper trail." Think of it as the last bastion of gun ownership and transfer privacy. Q: I saw a post that said that pre-1899s are considered modern "firearms" if they are chambered to fire ammunition that is available off-the-shelf. Is this correct? That is absolutely incorrect. ANY gun manufactured before Jan. 1, 1899 (other than a machinegun or other NFA category, such as a short barreled gun) is NOT controlled in any way by Federal law. There is NO Federal requirement for sales of these guns to be handled by Federally licensed dealers. They may be freely bought and sold across State lines by private parties, regardless of what cartridge they are chambered in. (However, State or local laws vary.) Q: Does sporterizing or re-chambering an antique end its exemption? A: Unlike "Curio and Relic" category modern guns, sporterizing, re-barreling, or re-chambering an antique gun does NOT effect its legal status. Thus, I can sell folks Mauser sporters that have been converted to modern cartridges (like .308 Winchester!), without having to go through the "FFL to FFL" hassle. I have a BATF letter confirming this, which makes a useful reference. Here, available for free download in JPEG format is my query letter to the BATF: Page 1 Page2. And here is the BATF's reply: Page 3 Page 4. Q: Is a Form 6 import license required for importation of a pre-1899 gun by an individual? A: No Form 6 is required. This is because pre-1899 guns are outside of Federal jurisdiction. Q: Would an antique serial number range gun be worth more than an otherwise identical gun made just a few years later? A: Yes! Pre-1899 production guns now bring a 30% to 200% premium over identical condition guns made AFTER 1898. For example, in 2002, I sold a 1898-dated M1896 Swedish Mauser rifle that was dated 1898 on a www.AuctionArms.com on-line auction for $770. This was when most otherwise identical Swedish Mausers were selling for around $250! Based on market trends, I expect the pre-1899 premium to increase considerably in the next few years. (Perhaps even tripling or quadrupling in value if modern (post-1898) guns become subject to registration or additional transfer controls.) Many of my customers are commenting that they previously had no interest in "antique" guns, but now want one or more because they are paranoid about additional gun laws. For the time being at least, pre-1899 are completely EXEMPT from all federal laws. Presumably, this would also mean that they would be exempt from registration if they ever have nationwide gun registration.... Think about the possibilities. Q: What would you consider a basic battery of pre-1899 guns for a typical shooter that wants to diversify and "hedge his bets" by buying some pre-1899s for his family? A: I'd recommend buying the following pre-1899 production guns: * Two big bore S&W top break double action revolvers (.44-40 or .44 Russian, but get both in the same caliber.) * One Winchester Model 1897 in 12 gauge * One pre-1899 .22 Long Rifle. (Winchester Model 1890 pump or Winchester Low Wall single shot rifles are ideal.) * Two Model 1893/94/95/96 Mauser bolt action rifles. (6.5 x 55, 7x57, or 8x57, but get both in the same caliber.) If you have a big budget, you should also invest in few additional pre-1899 Colts and Winchesters that are chambered for commonly available factory made ammunition. Q: What about someone who is on a very tight budget? What pre-1899s are available? A: I'd recommend a Spanish or Chilean Model 1893/1895 (7 x57), or a Turkish Model 1893 (8 x57). Both can be had for under $200 in original condition, or often for under $125 if sporterized. Most Iver Johnson .38 S&W top break revolvers are also still a relative bargain at $120 to $250 each. Q: But what if I find a pre-1899 gun at a gun shop that was mistakenly logged into the dealer's "bound book" of post-1899 firearms? Won't I have to fill out a Form 4473 (yellow form)? A: No. All the dealer has to do is log the gun out as: "Inadvertent entry. Pre-1899 manufactured receiver [or frame]. No FFL required." If the dealer gives you any grief and insists on you filling out the yellow form, a call to any BATFE branch office will confirm this. In fact, according to the law, dealers are NOT ALLOWED to log pre-1899s into their books at all, since they are outside of Federal jurisdiction, and the "bound book" is their record book of guns that are within Federal nexus. (It makes about as much sense as a FFL holder logging a pellet rifle into his bound book.) Q: Will the prices of pre-1899s continue to go up? A: Yes, and the rate of increase is likely to accelerate! Here are some examples: In 1997, .44-40 S&W double action top break revolvers were selling for $400 to $800. They now sell for $900 to $2,000. In 1997, .38 S&W double action top break revolvers were selling for $50 to $150. They now sell for $320 to $900. In 1997, .44-40 Merwin Hulbert revolvers were selling for $300 to $1,000. They now sell for $900 to $4,000. Meanwhile, many pre-1899 Colts have been bid up to unaffordable--almost astronomical--prices. After Nov. 30, 1998 the permanent Brady Law rules went into effect. On that date all sales of *post-1898* guns--long guns and handguns--came under the federal control of "national instant background checks." Subsequently there has been a much bigger interest in guns that are Federally exempt and that can be bought via anonymous mail order or at gun shows with no "paper trail"! Q: Are pre-1899s included in the Brady II background check law? A: No. They are exempt. Q: How does the law on pre-1899 antiques and replicas actually read? A: From the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Which modified Title 18, U.S. Code): 18 USC 921 (a)(16). (A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica -- (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. Q: What are the primary advantages in investing in pre-1899 guns rather than modern (post-1898) guns, or replicas? A: They are not considered "firearms" under Federal law. Thus they will most likely be exempt from any new Federal gun registration law or any new restrictions on transfers between private (unlicensed) individuals. (Sadly, registration looks inevitable within a few years unless there is a massive swing of the pendulum back toward a constitutional republic.) I can literally send you a pre-1899 handgun or rifle right to your doorstep without a lick of paperwork. (Unless your live in New York City or D.C., for example) The joys of free commerce! The Dec. 31, 1898 cut-off date has been in existence, (unchanged), since 1968. Thus, the pool of available pre-1899s continues to shrink with each passing year, and because of this, those 106+ year old guns A.) Look more and more antique/obsolete to lawmakers--i.e. not worth bothering about. and, B.) Grow more valuable with every passing year. Pre-1899 guns already bring a considerable premium. The bottom line is that people are willing to pay more for privacy! Q: Are there any other legal advantages to pre-1899s? A: Yes. As of this writing, several States (including Florida, Minnesota, and Texas) use the Federal definition of "firearm" as the basis for their CCW laws. Hence, in some States pre-1899 guns can be legally carried concealed and loaded in your car or under your coat WITHOUT A PERMIT. (Consult your current local and State laws before doing so!) In essence, with pre-1899s you are buying both privacy (the lack of a "paper trail" and probable exemption from future registration) plus they a great investment. Why buy a replica (such as the Trapdoor Springfield, Winchester, and Schofield top break revolver replicas currently on the market--and requiring the Federal "Yellow" Form 4473), when you can buy the real thing (with far greater long term investment value, and NO paperwork) for just a little bit more money? Q: I know of a Class 01 FFL who was told by the BATFE to stop building pre-1899 Mauser custom rifles because they then became "modern", manufactured on that date [of modification], not when the receiver was manufactured. Is that true? A: No, the license holder was misinformed. I suspect that he heard a personal interpretation of the law from an BATFE field agent. The letter that I posted came directly from the ATF Firearms Branch and is hence definitive and authoritative. In essence, here in he U.S., either a receiver was made before 1898 or it wasn't. Pre-1899 manufactured rifles, pistol, and shotguns--except for machineguns and short-barreled rifles and shotguns--are outside of Federal jurisdiction. Legally, the receiver is what constitutes the gun, and anything that someone does to modify it--aside for turning it into a full auto or attaching a short barrel in violation of GCA-'68--cannot bring it into Federal jurisdiction. Please read the letter again. (See the scanned pages.) The wording from the ATF Firearms Branch is quite clear: "The fact that the firearm has been re-barreled, re-chambered, re-blued, or sporterized would have no bearing on its [Federally exempt] classification." Most likely the source of the confusion for ATF field agents is their vague recollection of the U.S. Curio and Relic (C&R) law, that states that if a C&R gun is substantially altered, then it loses its C&R status. But that is an entirely different law, pertaining to modern (post-1898) listed C&R guns, which are inside ATF jurisdiction. It is also noteworthy that the ATF letter on pre-1899s specifically addressed Model 1893 Turkish Mausers, that had their receivers re-heat treated and were then rebarreled for higher pressure 8x57 cartridges, in the1930s. These even had their receivers prominently stamped with 1930s dates at the time that they were re-arsenalized. But even these rifles are still considered legally "antique" and outside Federal jurisdiction!

tekrunner | 06-18-2009 04:34 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? ^^^ Real gangsters tote flintlocks!

low_five | 06-19-2009 12:51 AM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? certain revolvers are antique, but must be loaded with powder and wad.

Mike C | 06-19-2009 04:20 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? You guys that worry about confiscation really sound paranoid. Nobody's coming to get your guns, gold or silver. You don't need to load PVC pipes with them and bury them in your back yard, it's just not going to happen!

Big_Rob | 06-19-2009 09:51 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? The Glock 21 isnt too large for CCW carry. I carry a full sized Taurus 24/7 pro .45 with a IWB holster and nobody knows the wiser. I wear a shirt size bigger and always have it untucked. http://taurus45acp.com/

GoldBuyer123 | 06-19-2009 10:05 PM
Re: How Much Jail Time Would I Get? Quote:
Originally Posted by ____hoot____ (Post 1767720) Put a supersized can of Walmart carb cleaner under your seat. Makes pepper spray seem like nice nice.
This would probably be an assualt with a deadly weapon, a felony. Get the bear size pepper spray, as it's plenty effective 99.99% of the time and would be thrown out in light of your self defense plea

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