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Montecristo | 06-20-2009 10:04 AM
Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer I think I've picked out the gun I like. I thought I'd run it by you guys to find out if there is anything I should know or any advice you can give on my selection. I'm a first time gun owner. I had never even shot a gun before I took my CCW class last month. The class was at a local gun store/shooting range. During the class I shot a Glock, I don't know exactly what kind. I filed my paperwork with the county yesterday and got my permit to buy. When I went in to the store and talked to the instructor, who is also a salesman there, I told him I thought the Glock we used in class was a little big for my hand. He recommended a FNH FN P9, this one: http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/fi...01&mid=FNM0047 He took me in the range and let me demo that model for two magazines and also one magazine of a smaller Glock than the one we used in the class, but the same size as the FNH. I liked the FNH the best, it felt like it fit in my hand better. I told him I would come back in Tuesday to shoot it one more time, or demo another model and make a decision then. Any advice?

SilverCity | 06-20-2009 10:42 AM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer I would recommend you shoot as many different kinds of handguns as you can, to get a feel for them. You will find over time and with more experience, that your tastes and requirements change... I am not familiar with the FNH, but have heard no complaints about them. Good luck. SC

Roland30 | 06-20-2009 11:44 AM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Great advise SilverCity. It is very important you do your home work on what to pick. Don't rush it if at all possible... It stinks to get something you "thought" you liked only to later on find out that it's junk or not comfortable ect... For me the #1 thing for any weapon is that it does what it's supposed to do...it goes "bang" every time you pull the trigger without fail. Of corse anything "can" fail but the more you can cut that margin down the better. Think reliaibility and comfort...then everything else... I'm not going to open the "which caliber" to choose can of worms but I can say this. Get as much pratice and training as possible with whatever you select. There is no laser/holo sight what will make up for a lack of skill. Thoes toys can and often do fail. Master the basics...over and over and over untill it is not "like" a reflex but an actual reflex....once you achieve that...keep training and learning because your life does depend on it. The real gun fighters in this world never assume they know it all or ever will...they keep praticing and training constantly. Always keep in mind....YOU are the weapon...not that hunk of metal. It is you who must make it all happen...the gun is a tool and nothing more, it will not save your life. I bring this up simply because I see way too much emphisis on "gun talk" and not enough real talk about the core skills needed to survive. IT'S ALL SKILLS! It would be better to be highly skilled with a .22 then an arm chair commando with a .308 who dosen't know squat...

Lars Ragnarsson | 06-20-2009 12:21 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Okay, I'm going to crap in the punchbowl here. The FNP-9 is the only gun I've ever sold. And I've bought many. The first time I took mine to the range, I kept getting failure to feed (FTF) and failure to eject (FTE) malfunctions. Yes, I was using cheap-ass ammo, which just happens to be the only 9mm ammo you'll find on the shelves at this time (Blazer Brass). Since you never know what the ammo supply will be, I always use cheap ammo when I test a gun out. If the gun won't eat the cheap ammo, I get rid of it. I got rid of my FNP-9. Now I've heard some models of pistols have a break-in period, where you can expect a few malfunctions until the parts get loosened up a bit, but I don't buy into that. But there's folks here that know much more about guns than I do. What would I get instead? I really like the CZ P0-1. Compact, feels great in the hand, and yes, I also have relatively small hands, and you get 14+1. Just my experience. Good luck in your search.

SilverCity | 06-20-2009 12:33 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Well, now I have officially heard a complaint.

CrufflerJJ | 06-20-2009 12:54 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Ragnarsson (Post 1779061) Now I've heard some models of pistols have a break-in period, where you can expect a few malfunctions until the parts get loosened up a bit, but I don't buy into that.
A break-in period is a reality with many weapons. I think it depends on how tightly fit the parts are in the weapon. If it's loosely fit together, a break-in may not be needed. I try to run 200 rounds through a potential carry pistol before evaluating its reliability. If it malfunctions after the 200 round break-in, there's a problem. Some weapons need "hotter" or higher recoiling ammo to function reliably. This can sometimes be adjusted by going to a higher or lower strength recoil spring. If your rounds were getting hung up on the feed ramp, you could also consider polishing it gently with a Dremel tool, a felt wheel, and some jeweler's rouge (or have your gunsmith do it). Many weapon malfunctions are due to a crappy magazine. Before throwing a weapon away, try it with a different magazine to see if the problem is mag specific. As other folks have said, it's good to try a bunch of different pistols if you can, before choosing your carry weapon. How it "fits" in your hand is very important, so it's good that you've found one that you like. I got rid of my Glock 21 because the grip diameter was so freakin' large. I could shoot it well, but it never seemed to "fit". If you've got small hands, you might also try the Browning High Power pistol.

EE_ | 06-20-2009 12:59 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer You said conceal carry. My top 4 All are made to shoot a lot. Glock 26/27 M&P 9 compact 9mm/.40 Smith Model 640 Springfield XD sub compact Carry only Kahr MK9 Ruger LCP

Tallinthesaddle | 06-20-2009 01:56 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer You need to buy what fits YOU best and can shoot best with, short of buying several pistols. If you can go to a range and rent or try out their range guns, then try several. As for the FNH, I own 2, both 9mm, the latest in Dark Earth color. The color will not help you shoot better, but I like the tan. The new FN's have a safety and a decocker. They are similar to Sig Sauer pistols but slightly lighter. My FN has never yet stopped up. Another pistol to look at is a CZ P-07. It is a new pistol that came out, but the grip reminds me of an HK pistol and it shoots like a Glock. Study the difference between a double-action only and a single-action/double action pistol because that can help you with the choice. Don't forget to try a Springfiled XD, very reliable. The last pistol that I would buy is a S&W Sigma.

teedub31 | 06-20-2009 03:08 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Ragnarsson (Post 1779061) Okay, I'm going to crap in the punchbowl here. The FNP-9 is the only gun I've ever sold. And I've bought many. The first time I took mine to the range, I kept getting failure to feed (FTF) and failure to eject (FTE) malfunctions. Yes, I was using cheap-ass ammo, which just happens to be the only 9mm ammo you'll find on the shelves at this time (Blazer Brass). Since you never know what the ammo supply will be, I always use cheap ammo when I test a gun out. If the gun won't eat the cheap ammo, I get rid of it. I got rid of my FNP-9. Now I've heard some models of pistols have a break-in period, where you can expect a few malfunctions until the parts get loosened up a bit, but I don't buy into that. But there's folks here that know much more about guns than I do. What would I get instead? I really like the CZ P0-1. Compact, feels great in the hand, and yes, I also have relatively small hands, and you get 14+1. Just my experience. Good luck in your search.
My .357 wheel gun feeds 'em perfect every time.

StackerKen | 06-20-2009 03:13 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer the longer the barrel the better if you ask me... I know...no one asked me :Sorry:

LukeNM | 06-20-2009 03:48 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer If it is going to be your only handgun I recommend you purchase a pistol in .40 S&W. I believe the 9mm to be a little wimpy for self defense for a new shooter.

CrufflerJJ | 06-20-2009 04:59 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeNM (Post 1779233) If it is going to be your only handgun I recommend you purchase a pistol in .40 S&W. I believe the 9mm to be a little wimpy for self defense for a new shooter.
That's fine if a new shooter can handle the snappy recoil of a .40 S&W. If you can get hits with a 9mm, but not the .40 S&W, go with a 9mm.

The Great Ag | 06-20-2009 05:15 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer A lot of great responses. I would concur with trying a lot of different hand guns before purchasing. Do some online research regarding reliability. Some handguns are more reliable than others. For myself I purchased the Springfield XD 40S&W. Great safety features (does not go bang unless I want it to) plus a 9mm version went through a 20,000 round torture test. Yes, 20,000 rounds! Not one misfire! Here is a link to read the article http://springfield-armory.primediaou.../SPstory11.php There are many fine handguns, but the Springfield XD felt the best in my hand. Some grips were too big (I do not have large hands), others too small, some not long enough. . .etc. This grip felt the best to me. Sig Sauer makes a great hand gun Glock makes a great hand gun Kimber (very expensive) makes a great hand gun The list goes on. Try as many handguns as you can and go to a couple of different stores and ask opinions of the buyers there which gun they like and why. You will get a 100 different answers but I found this incredibly helpful. THe Great Ag

MOD1 | 06-20-2009 05:33 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer If available, try several range rentals first. Take care, Mod1

Willie Peter | 06-20-2009 05:40 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer I'd never buy a S&W auto, but that's just me, a revolver...yes, but not an auto,.....currently I have all the confidence in the world with my SIG-226 9mm

mtnman | 06-21-2009 06:52 AM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer First google "Glock Leg" You'll never buy that piece of junk. Second I recomend a Revolver for conceled carry. Someting like a S&W "Bodyguard" (use google again).

CrufflerJJ | 06-21-2009 07:03 AM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 1779782) First google "Glock Leg" You'll never buy that piece of junk.
So because a user has their finger on the trigger while holstering a Glock (& the weapon discharges), it's the weapon's fault?

mtnman | 06-21-2009 07:25 AM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Quote:
Originally Posted by CrufflerJJ (Post 1779787) So because a user has their finger on the trigger while holstering a Glock (& the weapon discharges), it's the weapon's fault?
Yes. It is a dangerous design for concealed carry

CrufflerJJ | 06-21-2009 09:15 AM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 1779794) Yes. It is a dangerous design for concealed carry
If trigger pull force is your main concern (I'm guessing here) with the Glock, there are heavier trigger springs available.

SilverCity | 06-21-2009 10:38 AM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Nonsense. Glocks are fine for concealed carry and are no more dangerous than any other pistol, including the double action revolver, which is in fact what the Glock trigger was designed to duplicate. The Glock is what firearm instructors recommend more often than any other pistol, and it is very easy to transition between DA revolver and Glock for the above reason. And like ANY OTHER handgun, keep you finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.

EE_ | 06-21-2009 11:29 AM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 1779899) Nonsense. Glocks are fine for concealed carry and are no more dangerous than any other pistol, including the double action revolver, which is in fact what the Glock trigger was designed to duplicate. The Glock is what firearm instructors recommend more often than any other pistol, and it is very easy to transition between DA revolver and Glock for the above reason. And like ANY OTHER handgun, keep you finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
I think it takes the same kind of control to keep from accidently pulling the trigger on a Glock, as it does to keep your car from crossing the centerline or remembering to hit your brakes when you need to. Both can end in tragedy if you are careless. I'm a big fan of the G26/27 for carry and shootability. No frills, goes bang everytime, and no manual safety to fumble with.

Lars Ragnarsson | 06-21-2009 03:32 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Quote:
Originally Posted by CrufflerJJ (Post 1779097) A break-in period is a reality with many weapons. I think it depends on how tightly fit the parts are in the weapon. If it's loosely fit together, a break-in may not be needed. I try to run 200 rounds through a potential carry pistol before evaluating its reliability. If it malfunctions after the 200 round break-in, there's a problem. Some weapons need "hotter" or higher recoiling ammo to function reliably. This can sometimes be adjusted by going to a higher or lower strength recoil spring. If your rounds were getting hung up on the feed ramp, you could also consider polishing it gently with a Dremel tool, a felt wheel, and some jeweler's rouge (or have your gunsmith do it). Many weapon malfunctions are due to a crappy magazine. Before throwing a weapon away, try it with a different magazine to see if the problem is mag specific.
Thanks - lots of good info. Like I said, I knew there were many folks here that would know much more than I do on the subject. I'm just used to my Berettas, CZs, and Sigs working right out of the box. I got a S&W Ladysmith for my wife in 9mm that also has had FTF/FTE issues over the years - I just haven't gotten around to getting rid of it - I'll have to look at the mags on that and see if that's not the problem. I don't know why I didn't think of that being a problem with factory mags, as I've had to do it with replacement mags already. Looked hard for extra mags for an old FI .380 Auto, and finally found a dealer online that said he had them. Yeah, they fit, but I had to cut off the floor plate extension to get to fit in the first place. Then they wouldn't feed. I looked at the factory mag, and then filed off the points and spread out the lips a little on the replacement mags to match. A couple of tweaks and I was in business. Anyway, good info - thanks again!

LukeNM | 06-21-2009 03:51 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Quote:
Originally Posted by CrufflerJJ (Post 1779302) That's fine if a new shooter can handle the snappy recoil of a .40 S&W. If you can get hits with a 9mm, but not the .40 S&W, go with a 9mm.
Stay away from the 180 grain cartridges and go with the 135 or 155 grain for self defense/target practice and recoil will not be so much of an issue. Many pro's say stay away from the 180 grain 40 S&W ammo altogether. "The 135-155 grain JHP kicks less and has higher kinetic energy and stopping power than the 180 gr. JHP loads. The 135 gr. JHP appears to be a real stopper."

SilverCity | 06-21-2009 04:03 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeNM (Post 1780208) Stay away from the 180 grain cartridges and go with the 135 or 155 grain for self defense/target practice and recoil will not be so much of an issue. Many pro's say stay away from the 180 grain 40 S&W ammo altogether. "The 135-155 grain JHP kicks less and has higher kinetic energy and stopping power than the 180 gr. JHP loads. The 135 gr. JHP appears to be a real stopper."
Source? The 40 S&W cartridge was developed around the 180 grain bullet. For the record, 135 JHPs are shallow penetrators in 40 S&W. They don't reliably penetrate to the FBI standard 12 inches. My LE stepson is issued 180 Speer Gold Dot HPs for his Glock 40. I wouldn't recommend anything lighter than 165 or 180 HPs for self-defense. http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppi...=11&Weight=All 40 S&W Stopping Power, all bullet weights Brand/Bullet/Shootings/One Shot Stops/Percent/Diameter/Penetration/Notes Remington 165 gr GS 146 137 94% 0.7" 13.9" CCI 155 gr GD 59 55 93% 0.67" 14.2" Federal 155 gr HS 88 82 93% 0.73" 13.6" Corbon 135 gr JHP 9 8 89% 0.69" 10.4" 4" barrel or less Speer 155 gr GD 18 16 89% 0.65" 11.9" 4" barrel or less Corbon 135 gr JHP 56 50 89% 0.74" 10.9" Federal 155 gr JHP 139 124 89% 0.68" 11.8" Remington 165 gr GS 61 54 89% 0.68" 12.6" 4" barrel or less Corbon 150 gr JHP 40 35 88% 0.71" 11.3" Federal 155 gr HS 24 21 88% 0.69" 12.6" 4" barrel or less Remington 155 gr 41 36 88% 0.63" 12.9" Winchester 155 gr ST 106 93 88% 0.74" 11.2" Federal 180 gr HS 65 57 88% 0.66" 15.6" Federal 180 gr HS 30 26 86% 0.59" 12.9" 4" barrel or less Remington 180 gr GS 78 67 86% 0.63" 12.7" PMC 155 gr 49 42 86% 0.65" 13.9" CCI 180 gr GD 63 54 86% 0.63" 12.6" Corbon 180 gr JHP 21 18 86% 0.63" 11.4" Winchester 180 gr BT 157 132 84% 0.68" 15.8" Starfire 180 gr JHP 51 43 84% 0.61" 14.2" Federal 180 gr 100 84 84% 0.65" 13.1" Remington 180 gr GS 25 21 84% 0.62" 12.2" 4" barrel or less Federal 180 gr JHP 32 27 84% 0.67" 12.9" 4" barrel or less Black Hills 180 gr JHP 44 37 84% 0.67" 13.3" Winchester 180 gr JHP 159 132 83% 0.61" 14.3" Federal 165 gr HS 112 93 83% 0.51" 16.8" Federal 155 gr JHP 22 18 82% 0.54" 11.1" 4" barrel or less Winchester 180 gr BT 34 27 79% 0.47" 14.2" 4" barrel or less Winchester 180 gr JHP 46 36 78% 0.46" 13.9" 4" barrel or less Winchester 180 gr FMJ 94 67 71% 0.4" 19.2" Winchester 0 gr FMJ 28 17 61% 0.4" 16.7" 4" barrel or less 31 loads -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BT = Black Talon GS = Golden Saber GD = Gold Dot HS = Hydra Shok ST = Silvertip LRN = Lead Round Nose SWC = Semi Wadcutter JHP = Jacketed Hollow Point FMJ = Full Metal Jacket -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Diameter and Penetration are the average from bullets recovered in actual shootings. All data taken from Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book: Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition and used with permission from the author.

LukeNM | 06-21-2009 04:28 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Thanks you proved my point -- If you look at the actual chart (link provided) the first 12 loads (man stoppers) are all under 180 grain bullets with 10 being 155 grains or less. Many of the 180 grain bullets over penetrate the 12 inches considered as optimum penetration.

Shasta Gold | 06-21-2009 07:26 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Quote:
Originally Posted by CrufflerJJ (Post 1779302) That's fine if a new shooter can handle the snappy recoil of a .40 S&W. If you can get hits with a 9mm, but not the .40 S&W, go with a 9mm.
Ammunition is far more readily available than .40.

Shasta Gold | 06-21-2009 07:27 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 1779782) First google "Glock Leg" You'll never buy that piece of junk. Second I recomend a Revolver for conceled carry. Someting like a S&W "Bodyguard" (use google again).
A revolver is the CCW.

Tragedy Trousers | 06-21-2009 08:15 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallinthesaddle (Post 1779135) Don't forget to try a Springfiled XD, very reliable. The last pistol that I would buy is a S&W Sigma.
Ditto on the Sigma. I have one and am thinking of trading it for a Springfield XD 9mm Subcompact.

AZLiberty | 06-21-2009 08:54 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Lots of choices out there, pretty much all of them are decent, the trick is to find what fits your hand, has decent ergonomics and that you will want to shoot. Cz-75 compact would be at the top of my list. The Springfield XD series are good guns with better ergos than the Glock but a similar trigger. Teh Smith and Wesson MP is also getting rave reviews, though I haven't personally shot one. As for 9mm vs .40. Ten years ago I would have said look at the .40, but ammunition has come a long way in the past decade. The top loads (Win-T, fed HST, Speer Gold Dot) all perform pretty much the same in 9mm and .40. Thus I'd say to go with the 9. Ammo is cheaper, and your capacity wil be greater. Also the snappy recoil of the .40 is uncomfortable for a lot of shooters.

SilverCity | 06-21-2009 11:46 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeNM (Post 1780243) Thanks you proved my point -- If you look at the actual chart (link provided) the first 12 loads (man stoppers) are all under 180 grain bullets with 10 being 155 grains or less. Many of the 180 grain bullets over penetrate the 12 inches considered as optimum penetration.
QUOTE: Many pro's say stay away from the 180 grain 40 S&W ammo altogether. Prove it. QUOTE: "The 135-155 grain JHP kicks less and has higher kinetic energy and stopping power than the 180 gr. JHP loads. The 135 gr. JHP appears to be a real stopper." Felt recoil is subjective. And my subjective opinion (of 60 years) is that the 180s recoil less. The 135 and 155 defensive loads are "snappier". And kinetic energy doesn't mean $hit if you don't hit something vital. The 135 grainers penetrate the LEAST. The FBI standard MINIMUM penetration is 12 inches, and says NOTHING about overpenetration. There is no such thing as a "manstopper" handgun load. Hyperbole. Only rounds that increase the likelihood of a one-shot stop. That is, penetrate deeply enough to hit something vital (brain, spine, CNS) and "turn off the switch". You have greater likelihood of deeper penetration (12" or more) with heavier bullets. Sine qua non.

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CrufflerJJ | 06-22-2009 12:51 AM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 1780664) There is no such thing as a "manstopper" handgun load. Hyperbole. Only rounds that increase the likelyhood of a one-shot stop. That is, penetrate deeply enough to hit something vital (brain, spine, CNS) and "turn off the switch". Since shot placement is most important, you have greater likelyhood of deeper penetration with heavier bullets.
But but but but Marshal & Sanow says...... But but but "massive energy dump" mumbledy-mumble "kinetic energy" mumbledy-mumble 7.62x25 mumbledy-mumble super-duper Nytrillium destructo-matic bullet design blahblahblah :applause_THANK YOU!:applause_ Stopping power with a handgun load is a myth. Carry what you can shoot, shoot what you can carry. Ammo is cheap - be generous with your bullets if needed.:yes:

LukeNM | 06-22-2009 01:36 AM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer This is from the crap you posted "40 S&W Stopping Power". All I did was spoof it by saying man stoppers. I would rather have a well placed 9mm than a wing shot with a 45 ACP. Enough said... Glad we agree!

Montecristo | 06-22-2009 09:12 AM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer My cable/internet has been out all weekend at home. I had to wait to come into work to read the replies. Thanks for the great advice and the gun suggestions. When I go to the store/range tomorrow I will ask to shoot a couple of the models suggested here before I make a decision.

Montecristo | 06-23-2009 10:22 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer I know you guys said to be patient and try out as many as possible, but I took the leap. I was putting a little pressure on myself because my permit to purchase only had 5 days left, but I made up my mind before going in the store that if I wasn't completely sure about my purchase, rather than make a hasty decision I would just have to take another afternoon off work, go down to the County Offices again and apply for another permit to purchase. So, I went to the store/range and shot 2 magazines with the Sig and the same with the Springfield, (the instructor recommended against the S & W). I really liked the Sig, even more than the FNH. I wasn't to crazy about the Springfield. as I was leaving the range i had determined to tell the guy I would do some more research and come back, when I got to the counter he handed me an HK P2000 to shoot. So I went back to the range for the 3rd time. Wow! Did that gun shoot nice. It felt easier to line up and I was a lot more consistant with my shots than any of the other guns I tried. When I got off the range he handed me an HK p30 9mm, this one: http://www.hk-usa.com/p30_general.asp Holy crap! It felt like it was made for my hand. I was hooked. 20 minutes later I was walking out of the store with my new gun. He gave me 2 mos. of free range time to practice with and I can't wait to go.

SilverCity | 06-23-2009 11:28 PM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Congratulations. Hope it works out great for you...

The Great Ag | 06-24-2009 01:26 AM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer Excellent Montecristo! You found your gun. You found the one that fit your hand best and shot like nothing else. I felt the same way with the Springfield XD. You are set! H&K is a reliable firearm, too! The Great Ag

Lars Ragnarsson | 06-24-2009 01:35 AM
Re: Buying Advice Needed for a firstimer How's that for ya? Everything under the sun is mentioned, from Glocks to CZs to Sigs to Kahrs to S&Ws - and nobody thought of an H&K. I don't have a standard H&K pistol, but I hear they're great pieces - congrats on the purchase. I only own one H&K, and I love it. My only regret about buying this one is that I didn't buy two when they were cheap.... http://remtek.com/arms/hk/civ/sp89/sp89.gif

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