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- - Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=370504)

Tallships | 04-26-2009 01:57 PM
Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. I went to the store the other day, and experienced first hand the ammunition shortage. Everything is missing except for shotgun shells (only slugs and birdshot) which there are lots of boxes still left to be had. I was thinking about this and thought why not buy some of these, and open them up, and load homemade buckshot into them. The price of buckshot is outrageous compared to bird shot, so even if availability is not the issue, price would be. Has anyone tried this in the past? Any successes?

Tallships | 04-26-2009 02:26 PM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. From Wikipedia: Modern shotgun cartridges typically consist of a plastic case, with the base covered in a thin brass covering. Paper shells used to be common, and are still made, as are solid brass shells. Some companies have produced what appear to be all-plastic shells, although in these there is a small metal ring cast into the rim of the shell to provide strength. Often the more powerful loads will use "high brass" shells, with the brass extended up further along the sides of the shell, while light loads will use "low brass" shells. The brass does not actually provide a significant amount of strength, but the difference in appearance provides shooters with a way to quickly differentiate between high and low powered ammunition.

tulsamal | 04-26-2009 06:05 PM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. I don't think I would want to try "opening them up" and loading something else in them! Shotgun shells are loaded with very fast powders and everything has to be matched up exactly. If you load something heavier or with a different wad/shot cup, pressures can shoot up. There is no reason you can't reload your own buckshot in general. You can order the buckshot pellets themselves by the bag. Or you really can cast your own. For that matter you can cast your own slugs and reload those as well. It really isn't that hard to load shotshells. You can buy a very simple shotshell reloader made by Lee for way less than fifty bucks. It isn't speedy but it does just fine. Gregg

TUMS | 04-26-2009 06:38 PM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. I wouldn't just open them up, i'd shoot them first. Make sure you are buying shells with good hulls. I wouldn't use any of the cheap winchester or federal gun club hulls to load buckshot. Remington STS might work I don't know. I've never loaded buckshot before. go to http://www.ballisticproducts.com/ They carry more buckshot and buckshot loading data than anyone else out there.

Tallships | 04-26-2009 10:49 PM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. Good advice for now, but I am thinking of a SHTF case where you cannot order anything, and that's all that there is.

Squirrel Bait | 04-26-2009 11:00 PM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. http://www.precisionreloading.com/shot.htm

ruprick | 04-26-2009 11:08 PM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. You can open shot shells and replace the shot size as long as the new shot weight is the same or less. You will need to recrimp....probably with a shot shell reloading press. I've doen this in experiments to isolate variables.

Tallships | 04-26-2009 11:11 PM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 1695685) You can open shot shells and replace the shot size as long as the new shot weight is the same or less. You will need to recrimp....probably with a shot shell reloading press. I've doen this in experiments to isolate variables.
I have replaced shot with rock salt, but never tried buckshot. Back then though I used a single shot break away shotgun. Dont think it would work as well in the S.A.

TUMS | 04-27-2009 12:41 AM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. Have you ever tried to OPEN a shotshell? It aint easy. Every time I've tried I have used an icepick. Try it. I guarantee you won't want to do too many. And they aren't exactly pretty when you try and recrimp them. If you can tell me an easier way I would love to hear it.. Besides shooting them. That's the way i've always opened them. Anyway, opening the shells up one by one and replacing the contents with buckshot is a stupid idea if you don't have too. You might as well just buy once fired hulls from somebody now and not wait for TSTHTF. This way you won't even have to mess with the bird loads. Besides that your probably going to need a different wad anyway than what comes in the birdshot loads.

TTAZZMAN | 04-27-2009 12:54 AM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. I used to open paper shot shells all the time when i was a kid......and replace the shot with all kinds of things...rock salt...popcorn...BBs..arrows..projectiles...etc.. the paper was easy to open and just hand recrimp havent tried it with the newer plastic shells ....(im not as curious as i used to be)

skyvike | 04-27-2009 01:43 AM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. I'm not an expert on reloading, especially shotgun shells but I think I have a reasonable understanding of basic physics and some of the arguments being made here don't make sense to me. To wit: "You might cause an overpressure if you increase the weight of the shot." Well first, aren't the wads made of plastic or paper? Surely they would release the overpressure long before the barrel would even think about failing. Secondly, aren't modern barrels DESIGNED for the higher pressures? I mean really. If I shoot a high velocity 3 inch magnum slug, is someone actually arguing the chamber pressure would be less than if I dumped out #6 shot and filled it with double ought? I know different powders burn at different rates but I find it hard to believe that the powder in a bird shot load is going to blow my barrel if I replace the bird shot with buck shot. Again, I'm not an expert but is there really that big of a difference between the weight of the buck shot and the bird shot? The bird shot can be packed more densely in the same space so it seem the birdshot would have a good chance of being heavier than the buck shot. And it would be a HEAVIER load that would potentially cause an overpressure, no? "You might have the change the wad." Why? Yes, I know there are wads optimized for different kinds of shot but it hasn't always been that way. They used to do it with paper. Again, I'm not an expert but my limited knowledge of the subject tells me the purpose of the wad is to keep the powder separate from the projectiles. I mean we are not talking about handloading for the World Sporting Clays Championship. We're talking about a field expedient measure when you have few or no other options. I would agree that proably the hardest thing would be to uncrimp the modern plastic shells and recrimp them again. Some judicious use of an xacto knife and some appropriate glue might be a better way to go about it. You'd only need a slit big enough to squeeze in the buckshot, one at a time. And again, we're talking about a field expedient solution here. Safety is important to me but frankly, I haven't seen anything here to convince me it would be any more dangerous than reloading shotgun shells with a progressive loader, maybe less so because you're not handling the primers in proximity to the powder. As for shooting, please show me where I'm wrong about the load and chamber/barrel pressures. Just my thoughts. Of course, this is all for entertainment and I would never suggest anyone perform surgery on an explosive device. :yes:

TUMS | 04-27-2009 03:07 AM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. I've always been told in no uncertain terms to stick to proven recipes as close as possible so that's what I do. My guns and my face are too valuable to do otherwise.

skyvike | 04-27-2009 03:38 AM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. Quote:
Originally Posted by TUMS (Post 1695867) I've always been told in no uncertain terms to stick to proven recipes as close as possible so that's what I do. My guns and my face are too valuable to do otherwise.
A wise and undoubtedly mostly safe philosophy. My point is that sometime in the future, all the "ingredients" for the "proven recipes" may not be available and we may have to improvise. It's easy now to sit in our swivel chairs and say, "I will follow all the safety rules not matter what!" when in the future being able to think for yourself to analyze and mitigate risks will be a valuable survival skill. It seems to me that at least thinking this sort of thing (and lots of other scenarios) through in advance might help enhance those skills. The great writer Richard Bach (Jonathan Livingston Seagull) wrote in one of his short stories (not quoting here but rather "gisting") about a student pilot who got lost in deteriorating weather, ran out of gas, and did not survive the forced landing. It was pointed out that in the last hour of the flight he had flown over many dozen potential great landing places. Why didn't he land? Because in the "Book of Golden Rules (Which Bach describes as "All don'ts and nevers"), he had been taught never to land at an airport unless it had "known and current runway maintenance." He had lots of places to make an "unscheduled precautionary landing" before the engine quit but he never considered them because they weren't "airports" in his mind. He was too locked into "the rules" which regulate but do not educate. So if you lose all your reference books when your house burns down or you are forced to leave for whatever reason, and you really need some birdshot to eat or really need some buckshot to protect yourself and all you have is the one you don't need, what are you going to do? Follow the "Golden Rules" to the letter? And perhaps be "Dead Right." Or are you going to at least attempt to innovate and adapt? Yeah, I know we're "not there yet." but it's worth thinking about and opening your mind a bit. And as far as your "I was told" or "I was taught" argument, it doesn't hold water with me. Here you are in the comfort of your home, with all your "recipes" around you or available, yet you argue against a practice you haven't researched. With all the data available, the argument against doing this is an empty one without consulting it. I will quote myself, speaking to to many years of students and would be instructors (usually young airline ground instructors with no flight experience) who liked to make things up as they went along, justifying it with "I was taught.":. "If you can't show me the reference data, you're just making it up." In an emergency, however, absent the luxury of "the data," you may have to do your best with what you have and engage your mind and your experience in analyzing the risks and mitigating them to the extent possible. By your logic, Chesley Sullenberger should have just thrown up his hands and tried to land his jet on a road because, since no one had every successfully ditched that aircraft, there was no proven "recipe." Or United Airlines Captain Al Haynes, when all hydraulics were lost on his aircraft and the manufacturer told him by radio, "That's impossible so we never wrote a procedure for it" would have just thrown up his hands as well let let all the people onboard die because there was no procedure or "recipe" to deal with the problem. Al Haynes combined his years of experience, and that of some pretty special pilots who also happened to be onboard, and flew that plane to the ground saving many live. This is going to make you mad, I'm sure, but it has to be said. Sometimes you just have to think for yourself. :36_1_32v:

skyvike | 04-27-2009 03:50 AM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. Gautama Siddharta AKA "Buddha"

morganchaser | 04-27-2009 04:11 AM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. You'll never overpressure a gun by reducing the projectile weight for a given powder charge from a known safe projectile. Same process you use for working your own handload recipes: You start with a conservative load, check for overpressure signs, and work your way up. I would use the slugs instead of the birdshot personally, since you already know the powder is acceptable and you're essentially reducing the chamber pressure by reducing the projectile weight.

skyvike | 04-27-2009 04:16 AM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1695896) You'll never overpressure a gun by reducing the projectile weight for a given powder charge from a known safe projectile. Same process you use for working your own handload recipes: You start with a conservative load, check for overpressure signs, and work your way up. I would use the slugs instead of the birdshot personally, since you already know the powder is acceptable and you're essentially reducing the chamber pressure by reducing the projectile weight.
Morganchaser, Good advice. I know loads vary, but wouldn't buckshot weigh less (at least for the same volume) since the smaller size birdshot allows it (the birdshot) to be loaded more densely? I mean a shot glass full of buckshot would weigh less than a shotglass full of #6, wouldn't it?

TUMS | 04-27-2009 05:49 AM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. You and your buddy tallships you guys just enjoy your little buckshot reloading experience. Neither one of you probably even own a 12 gauge reloader to begin with. I was just trying to help save him some time..

skyvike | 04-27-2009 06:18 AM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. Quote:
Originally Posted by TUMS (Post 1695914) You and your buddy tallships you guys just enjoy your little buckshot reloading experience. Neither one of you probably even own a 12 gauge reloader to begin with. I was just trying to help save him some time..
You're absolutely right, TUMS. I don't own a shotgun reloader of any kind for the simple reason that I won't live long enough, and my sons won't live long enough, to shoot all the shotgum ammo I have now. I won't be enjoying any "little buckshot reloading experience" with tallships or anyone else. I was just trying to have a conversation, one in which I and maybe some others might learn something. You offered some suggestions that seemed reasonable and appropriate to someone interested in getting into reloading, but didn't actually address the question. Tallships clarified that he was talking about a SHTF situation where the implied meaning was you might not have primers, powder, etc but you might consider a converstion of birdshot to "home made" buckshot. You replied that the idea was stupid. Then I posted some questions because some of the things I saw being authoritarily declared didn't seem to make sense. You didn't attempt to answer A SINGLE ONE of them but only offered the logically fallacious (appeal to authority that you didn't even name) "I was always told in no uncertain terms...." Then I explained AGAIN what tallships was looking for and what we were talking about and made some suggestions about opening your mind. You didn't. It appears you've just taken your ball and gone home. It's the best thing for this thread, in my opinion. In the future, if you really don't have the knowledge or experience to answer a question someone asks, rather than brow beat them with suggestions about something you think you DO, know, how about just staying out of it? Your vast experience and your childishness have added nothing of value to this thread.

AG Capone | 04-27-2009 06:29 AM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. Birdshot will hurt like hell. The average intruder isn't going to walk off a close range shot. I would just stock up on some and keep it as is. It also would be perfect for hunting beasts of the backyard variety.:s15:

tulsamal | 04-27-2009 08:35 AM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. Quote:
I know loads vary, but wouldn't buckshot weigh less (at least for the same volume) since the smaller size birdshot allows it (the birdshot) to be loaded more densely?
OK, let me try again. Shotgun reloading is less forgiving than reloading for a 30/06 bolt action rifle. Several reasons why. Shotguns operate at much lower pressure and the barrels are FAR thinner. Compare the steel of the chamber area on a 12 gauge to a typical deer rifle. Shotguns typically use much faster powders than your typical deer rifle. The faster the powder, the less forgiving it is. If you put in a grain or two extra of IMR 4064 in a large rifle cartridge, you might flatten your primers but you will probably walk away with your fingers. If you put two grains extra in a shotshell reload, you might not! This is what I meant about how shotshell recipes for reloads need to be followed exactly. If the load calls for a particular wad, you need to use that wad. If you can't find that wad, find a published load that uses the wad that you can find. I'm saying wad but I'm actually talking about the more common modern plastic shot cup/wad combination. They look like little plastic shot glasses. They vary in their internal volume. They vary in how thick the wad (filler) at the base of the shot cup is. Some shot cups just won't work in some shotshell hulls because the internal volume and structure of different brands of shotshells precludes them. OK, back to your specific question. I will grant you that one ounce of number 7's should lead to _around_ the same pressure as one ounce of 00 Buck. I seriously doubt it will be the same if tested in a lab. The small pellets are going to leave the shot cup and the barrel in some slightly different manner than the much larger buckshot. In my experience, buckshot seems to wreck the inside of hulls far more than birdshot. I've always thought that was because it has a hard time getting started. The balls are crammed in there and I can just picture them acting like seven fat guys all trying to push their way down a narrow hallway at the same time. But there is another factor. Sure, if you just poured out one ounce of number 6 birdshot and put a few buckshot in, it does seem like the buckshot would have more airspaces and therefore actually weigh less and therefore it would at least work. I can see that. If the shotcup was designed for one ounce of #6, it wouldn't hold very many. I'm too lazy to go get all the various components out and try it but I'll grant you that one. A typical 00 Buck shell used to have 7 pellets. Then they found a way to pack in 9. The ones I usually buy actually have 12 pellets. My fear in recommending a replacement as "probably safe" is what else the fearless experimenter might try. If that little birdshot shot cup will only hold 4-5 buckshot pellets, why not just remove it at the same time? Then put a fiber wad (field expedient) at the bottom and then cram in as many buckshot pellets as will fit? That's when you blow something up big time. You might suddenly have a shotshell with double the safe pressures. You changed the shot cup to a fiber wad. And you changed the projectile weight from one ounce to 1 1/4 or 1 3/8ths ounces. I hope you can live without some of those fingers on your left hand! Try very, very hard to stick with the shotshell recipes in a reloading book! You really do have to reload a bunch of them to appreciate how little powder they use and how small your margin of error can be! People "wildcat" handguns and rifles. You don't hear about that much in shotshells! Gregg

tulsamal | 04-27-2009 08:49 AM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. Quote:
Birdshot will hurt like hell. The average intruder isn't going to walk off a close range shot.
Yes, they would "hurt." And they would make a very nasty hard to clean wound. A wound that might eventually end up being fatal. But you can't count on pain to stop people. How many stories do you have to hear about people not realizing how badly they are actually hurt until after the fight is over? The big problem with birdshot for self defense is penetration. The little pellets just don't keep going once they are inside of the bad guy. The police or military don't use birdshot even for very close range. If there was no difference, the SWAT teams would use birdshot for their entry shotguns. But they can't rely on it to penetrate deeply enough to shut the bad guy down. I have a double barreled 12 gauge with hammers that is sort of my "ace in the hole" home defense hideout. And I used to keep it loaded with #6's. Until I read the test results of what birdshot actually did on gelatin and in actual shootings. I switched to a high brass max pressure load of #4's in the right barrel. And 0 Buck in the left. The cartridge cuff on the buttstock is something like five more 0 Buck, two slugs, and one 7 1/2 shell at the end just in case I need it to dispatch some little yard vermin. The main home shotgun for me is an FN SLP. And that gun is all 00 Buck. I guess there is one box of slugs in the storage case but everything else is buckshot. If you are really going to have to get up close and personal with somebody with a foot long knife and a bad attitude, I would highly recommend buckshot compared to some cheap promo birdshot! Gregg

TUMS | 04-27-2009 09:01 AM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. Quote:
Originally Posted by skyvike (Post 1695923) In the future, if you really don't have the knowledge or experience to answer a question someone asks, rather than brow beat them with suggestions about something you think you DO, know, how about just staying out of it? Your vast experience and your childishness have added nothing of value to this thread.
Your right, I have no experience with reloading buckshot but at least I have SOME experience with shotgun reloading in general. I reload for 20 & 28 gauge quite regularly. I directed him to an awesome site with probably the best buckshot reloading manual on it. I told him TWICE to not waist his time hand opening each shell. That's more than you did so bug off.

ruprick | 04-27-2009 09:11 AM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. You are pretty safe to go down in payload - in regards to pressure will be reduced. I've been reloading sionce i was a kid over 30 years ago. GET EVERY MANUFACTURERS RELOADING GUIDE POSSIBLE. You do not have to follow the manufacturers cookbook to the exact data....but you have to use some pretty good judgement and compare various loads....not deviate too much.....but you can make reasonable substitutions. You can over pressure a shotgun barrel very easily.....much more easily than a rifle of pistol....keep in mind....a shotgun is very thin walled....pressures are in the 8000 - 13000 PSI range.....pistols and rifles can be 5X that level. Pistol and Rifles have very thick walls....shotgun is thin. When the barrel is pressurized it is stressed in a way that wants to stretch the circumference of the tube/barrel......this is called "hoop stress"....derived from the old days when pressure vessels were stressed ....and they were build like a drum/barrel with hoops or bands holding them together....since the shotgun barrel is very thin - it has very little area resisting this loading...and the stress levels get very high despite the relatively low operating pressure. Do not think the wad cup will act as a stress relief valve....it will not ...you can buldge/rupture the barrel is you get too much pressure. I swap some components when I need to - but I have quite a bit of experience and tons of loading books and guides going back to the 1970's for reference. Just use your head. Most manufactures (powder) have loading guides online these days. Lyman has the best shotgun reloading manual I've ever seen.....but the powder manufacturers have lots of data as well....

Tallships | 04-27-2009 09:22 AM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. I do not have a reloading machine, but I do have a big bag full of unused primered shells that I got for cheap at a garage sale. I figured I would build my own crimper. Also, I dont plan on shooting my test loads by hand. I will be putting the gun in a vise and pulling a string from behind a tree when I am testing these things out.

TUMS | 04-27-2009 09:27 AM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. Again. This is THE manual for buckshot http://www.ballisticproducts.com/pro...number=00MBUCK

morganchaser | 04-27-2009 09:19 PM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. Quote:
Originally Posted by tulsamal (Post 1695994) OK, let me try again. Shotgun reloading is less forgiving than reloading for a 30/06 bolt action rifle. Several reasons why. Shotguns operate at much lower pressure and the barrels are FAR thinner. Compare the steel of the chamber area on a 12 gauge to a typical deer rifle. Shotguns typically use much faster powders than your typical deer rifle. The faster the powder, the less forgiving it is. If you put in a grain or two extra of IMR 4064 in a large rifle cartridge, you might flatten your primers but you will probably walk away with your fingers. If you put two grains extra in a shotshell reload, you might not! This is what I meant about how shotshell recipes for reloads need to be followed exactly. If the load calls for a particular wad, you need to use that wad. If you can't find that wad, find a published load that uses the wad that you can find. I'm saying wad but I'm actually talking about the more common modern plastic shot cup/wad combination. They look like little plastic shot glasses. They vary in their internal volume. They vary in how thick the wad (filler) at the base of the shot cup is. Some shot cups just won't work in some shotshell hulls because the internal volume and structure of different brands of shotshells precludes them. OK, back to your specific question. I will grant you that one ounce of number 7's should lead to _around_ the same pressure as one ounce of 00 Buck. I seriously doubt it will be the same if tested in a lab. The small pellets are going to leave the shot cup and the barrel in some slightly different manner than the much larger buckshot. In my experience, buckshot seems to wreck the inside of hulls far more than birdshot. I've always thought that was because it has a hard time getting started. The balls are crammed in there and I can just picture them acting like seven fat guys all trying to push their way down a narrow hallway at the same time. But there is another factor. Sure, if you just poured out one ounce of number 6 birdshot and put a few buckshot in, it does seem like the buckshot would have more airspaces and therefore actually weigh less and therefore it would at least work. I can see that. If the shotcup was designed for one ounce of #6, it wouldn't hold very many. I'm too lazy to go get all the various components out and try it but I'll grant you that one. A typical 00 Buck shell used to have 7 pellets. Then they found a way to pack in 9. The ones I usually buy actually have 12 pellets. My fear in recommending a replacement as "probably safe" is what else the fearless experimenter might try. If that little birdshot shot cup will only hold 4-5 buckshot pellets, why not just remove it at the same time? Then put a fiber wad (field expedient) at the bottom and then cram in as many buckshot pellets as will fit? That's when you blow something up big time. You might suddenly have a shotshell with double the safe pressures. You changed the shot cup to a fiber wad. And you changed the projectile weight from one ounce to 1 1/4 or 1 3/8ths ounces. I hope you can live without some of those fingers on your left hand! Try very, very hard to stick with the shotshell recipes in a reloading book! You really do have to reload a bunch of them to appreciate how little powder they use and how small your margin of error can be! People "wildcat" handguns and rifles. You don't hear about that much in shotshells! Gregg
I learned something. Further confirms: reloading is no laughing matter. Sounds like my theory of "start conservative and work up" could have gotten someone hurt or killed if they worked up too aggressively.

Usury | 04-27-2009 09:40 PM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. Quote:
Originally Posted by AG Capone (Post 1695927) Birdshot will hurt like hell. The average intruder isn't going to walk off a close range shot. I would just stock up on some and keep it as is. It also would be perfect for hunting beasts of the backyard variety.:s15:
Due to an accident from my childhood when I was being a COMPLETE AND TOTAL F***ING MORON, I can attest to the fact that birdshot makes a nice 2-3" hole in whatever the hell it strikes if that target is in the same room. Fortunately my accident involved a television screen as opposed to flesh and blood, but the point is that at the distances you are likely to be shooting if ever involved in a self-defense battle in your home, whatever would probably work. Oh yeah.....+++1 to whomever invented the saftey bars we have separating the firing pin and hammers in modern guns today. :thumb.aspx::thumb.aspx::thumb.aspx::thumb.aspx:

Tallships | 04-27-2009 09:44 PM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. Went and looked at reloading machine today. About 400 bux for master reloader kit. Might get one in a few weeks. I have friends who just give me their brass (probably have about 1000 .45 brass shells), but I have never thought about reloading until there was no .45 in the gun store.

Iptuous | 04-27-2009 09:56 PM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. So, this brings up a question in my mind. I have heard that shotguns used to have thicker barrels since the loads were not as precise as they are today and they had to be for safety's sake. Does any manufacturer still make thicker barreled shotguns?

skyvike | 04-27-2009 10:13 PM
Re: Ideas for whats left --- ammunition. Nice informative posts, TULSAMAL and Ruprick. Iptuous, the barrels of the New England Firearms single shots are pretty thick but without knowing about the heat treating, etc. I wouldn't rely on them holding any more pressure than other barrels. :-)

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