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- - Taliban seeks rifles with more 'punch' (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=413084)

The Argent Dragon | 10-05-2009 01:58 PM
Taliban seeks rifles with more 'punch' Taliban Seek Rifles with More �Punch�? <LI class=entryAuthor>By David Hambling <LI class=entryDate>September 2, 2009 | 5:38 pm http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/da...09/09/ak74.jpgOne way of finding out what sort of weapons the Taliban favor is to go the usual military route: examine captured arsenals and look for shell casings after a firefight. Or you could just go and talk to the man who apparently sells them their weapons, as Guardian reporter Ghaith Abdul-Ahad recently did. The results were highly instructive. Abdul-Ahab talked to a man named Hekmat, formerly a shopkeeper but now a wealthy smuggler. Hekmat made his fortune ferrying arms from Central Asia. He also deals in heroin, but prices are down this year, so apparently the real money is in guns. Surprisingly, the hot item is not the plain-vanilla Kalashnikov. �It�s the Kalakov everyone wants,� the arms dealer tells Abdul-Ahad. �The Taliban like it because it pierces body armor.� The Kalakov, evidently, is the name the Afghans give to the AK-74, a Russian weapon based on a 5.45mm cartridge. This is confirmed when Hekmat shows the comparatively smaller round for the rifle. In some ways this should not come as any great surprise. The Soviets designed the 5.45mm round specifically to fight against Western armies who might have body armor, and have upgraded the standard bullets since its introduction in 1974. The original bullet had a mild steel core and a lead tip; a harder steel core was introduced in 1987 and this was enlarged in 1992 to create the 7N10 �improved penetration� round. This will punch through a Kevlar vest, but not hard ceramic inserts. The AK-74 round has better penetration than the Russian 7.62�39mm round it replaced, as well as improved accuracy. This Japanese video shows that it also penetrates better than a 5.56mm from an M16A1 " target="_blank">better than a 5.56mm from an M16A1
better than a 5.56mm from an M16A1 " target="_blank">better than a 5.56mm from an M16A1
� but only in wood, which doesn�t tell us anything about armor-piercing properties. Source >> http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/tag/guns/

The Argent Dragon | 10-05-2009 02:00 PM
Re: Taliban seeks rifles with more 'punch' More : If some Taliban fighters are apparently seeking to abandon the old 7.62 cartridge for a smaller caliber, there�s some irony here: Some commentators have argued that the current NATO 5.56mm � the standard round for the M16 rifle, M4 carbine and M249 light machine gun� is not lethal enough. Arguments about the effectiveness (or lack of it) of the 5.56mm round have been going on forever. Many of these go back to the introduction of the M16 in the 1960s, or are based on dubious �experiments� such as casually firing fifteen rounds into a tethered goat. The U.S. Army Infantry Center carried out a detailed study of the effectiveness of the 5.56mm cartridge. This was prompted by anecdotal reports from Iraq and Afghanistan that the round �overpenetrated,� punching a hole right through an enemy combatant who was able to continue fighting. The study looked at several different 5.56mm alternatives as well as the NATO 7.62�51mm (.308 Winchester) used in the old M-14; it found no significant differences in effectiveness at �close quarters battle� ranges of up to fifty meters. It concludes that U.S. forces �are still being provided the best performing weapons and ammunition available.� And if the Guardian report is correct, upgrading the Taliban arsenal with the AK-74 would be expensive. According to Hekmat, a Kalakov that costs $700 in Tajikistan sells for as much as $1,250 in southern Afghan provinces like Helmand. That sounds like a lot of money for a force whose hired help has been dubbed the �$10 Taliban� because of their low rates of pay. Source >> http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009...ch/#more-16674

The Argent Dragon | 10-05-2009 02:10 PM
Re: Taliban seeks rifles with more 'punch' Thought this vid was interesting : You Tube
You Tube

Kregener | 10-05-2009 02:34 PM
Re: Taliban seeks rifles with more 'punch' Don't ALL combatants ALWAYS seek deadlier weapons? Won't they ALWAYS do this?

goldgun | 10-05-2009 02:38 PM
Re: Taliban seeks rifles with more 'punch' All rifle rounds will go through a kevlar vest.

Doge | 10-05-2009 02:38 PM
Re: Taliban seeks rifles with more 'punch' I thought they would have learned this in the 80's.

Haltiat | 10-05-2009 02:42 PM
Re: Taliban seeks rifles with more 'punch' Different rounds have different penetration characteristics. Just because a given round penetrates one material well doesn't mean it will perform similarly on other materials. Another thing you have to be aware of is what comes out the other side of the barrier. 5.56 and 5.45 do not send much through a barrier. "Taliban" isn't stupid. They are adopting AK-74's for some reason other than defeating armor. The "insurgents" already know what defeats ceramic armor. It's cheap, can be fired from cheap rifles and is abundantly available. More than likely they're adopting the 74 because it is better suited to open areas than 7.62x39.

Culture | 10-05-2009 03:16 PM
Re: Taliban seeks rifles with more 'punch' Does this mean I won't be able to buy cheap 5.45x39 anymore? I don't need any competition for ammo.

Gaillo | 10-05-2009 04:05 PM
Re: Taliban seeks rifles with more 'punch' Quote:
Originally Posted by Culture (Post 1955782) Does this mean I won't be able to buy cheap 5.45x39 anymore? I don't need any competition for ammo.
Can you buy cheap 5.45x39 ammo NOW? :signs14:

steveoc | 10-05-2009 04:45 PM
Re: Taliban seeks rifles with more 'punch' Lessons from WW2 Australian infantry doctrine in the jungle - enemy often behind thick vegetation, monster tree trunks, or in prepared and armoured positions. Rifle group to put down covering fire, whilst the assault group moves in at right angles with 2 of these babies : You Tube
You Tube
Late war German infantry sections in urban ops have 2 of these beasties : You Tube
You Tube
Battle of Berlin - each section gets 10 x Mg42s and 2 flamethrowers. All man portable and highly effective in a quick and deadly suicide engagement. Now, I dont know about you, I wouldnt be game to try ANY sort of body armour against that. I am assuming here that the Taliban would be avoiding static warfare or drawn out engagements. They want casualties and morale hits on the coalition forces. If you want to produce casualties, then use only small numbers of AKs and movement to direct the enemy lines of approach .. and then maybe drag them in onto your close assault guys (if they have the discipline to sit tight that is) From what I have been hearing ... the Taliban are well disciplined and capable, they are not what Hollywood would have you believe. They are no strangers to small unit tactics. Flamethrowers are very cheap weapons too, and have an enormous impact on the morale of the target. Im surprised they are not seen more often in the Afghan fighting. It is difficult for the coalition forces - they are better off avoiding close contacts like these, and relying on support fire. Im glad I am not there anyway. This constant need to escalate / de-escalate, and convince the locals that you are there to help them is just ...... so contrary to the infantryman's mission. Without the possibility of decisive engagements to bring this mess to a conclusion, whats a soldier to do ?

The Argent Dragon | 10-05-2009 04:49 PM
Re: Taliban seeks rifles with more 'punch' Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaillo (Post 1955837) Can you buy cheap 5.45x39 ammo NOW? :signs14:
YES you can.........but I suppose it's all relative........is 14-cents per round cheap enuf ? http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/R...45x39_FMJ.html

Culture | 10-05-2009 08:19 PM
Re: Taliban seeks rifles with more 'punch' Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaillo (Post 1955837) Can you buy cheap 5.45x39 ammo NOW? :signs14:
Yes. I get milsurp corrosive ammo for 0.15/round. Best deal in town, and I like to clean my guns every time I shoot them anyway. Very zen for me. Edit: Just saw The Argent Dragon's post. Sorry for the repeat.

AZLiberty | 10-06-2009 01:58 AM
Re: Taliban seeks rifles with more 'punch' The AK-74 is universally regarded as more accurate than the 47, but honestly they probably want the newer gun simply because ammo is probably easier to come by. If they wanted better performance they would be buying guns chambered in 7.62 x 54R

AG Capone | 10-06-2009 08:02 AM
Re: Taliban seeks rifles with more 'punch' Quote:
Originally Posted by The Argent Dragon (Post 1955661) http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/da...09/09/ak74.jpg
That's an East German AK-74. MPI-AKS-74N I think. It's a fairly rare rifle outside of Germany. Most of these were destroyed. 5.45 with the 7N6 surplus ammo here in the states will go thru 1" steel plate. The 7N10 is even better.

shades2 | 10-06-2009 10:25 AM
Re: Taliban seeks rifles with more 'punch' If you're engaging the enemy in Afghanistan at 50m CQB, you are doing something wrong. In Iraq it's more understandable in built up areas. .308 / 7.62x51mm, is the way to go I would think in Afghanistan. You can carry less .308 than you can .223. The rounds are heavier, so less affected by wind, and can hit a target a lot further out with more kinetic energy and it will go through vehicles and cover. A fellow once told me that in Iraq as a contractor he preferred the 7.62mm for the range, and carried an AK as a backup gun also. Pretty hardcore carrying two rifles around huh.. hehe! The obvious advantage of the AK is the enemy will think you're one of theirs... and you can use their ammo if you can scavenge it.

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