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FreeMyLand | 10-07-2009 03:47 PM
Shotgun Shot Size For HD I was just wondering what most people here at GIM think would be the minimum shot size that would be considered good for home defense. Over the years I have seen all kinds of opinions concerning this. Some seem to think bird shot is fine since home defense encounters are often 15 yards or less, and just about all of the shot will be on target at close range. Others feel that bird shot does not provide adequate penetration. I had read somewhere that a particular prison would have their guards' shotguns loaded with 7 1/2 bird shot, which worked well for a time. Eventually there was a prison riot, and prisoners figured out that they would be able to shield themselves from the bird shot by using their mattresses. I think the prison ended up switching to #2 bird shot. For myself I have always considered #4 buckshot to be a good HD round. It seemed to me that .24 caliber pellets were big enough to do damage, and the #4 buckshot provides enough pellets (20+) to help get the job done. Personally, I like using the smallest size buck shot available, so that I can have a decent penetrating round with more pellets, and prevent over penetration compared to 00 buck. I recently came across this interesting page, http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm, that makes a good case for considering #1 Buck Shot to be the ideal HD shotgun round. Seems to make sense to me and I am surprised that #1 Buck does not seem to be a very popular shot size (at least when I look at what is on the shelves of most stores). What are your guys opinions concerning this? Do you think 7 1/2 bird shot containing 350 pellets good enough if distances are short and you can place all 1 1/4 ounces of lead on the target? Or is the lack of penetration a concern, requiring the use of buck shot. If so what size?

BellevueBully | 10-07-2009 03:55 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Personally, I would want something with hitting power. Trama can be overcome by a perp on narcotics. Pure impact ends things real quick imo. Just be aware of the direction of your shots (ie other bedrooms), which might also be a reason to consider lighter shot. I use 00.

Gaillo | 10-07-2009 03:55 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD I use #1 buckshot, based on information included in the exact article you cite - it made a LOT of sense to me when I read it several years ago. Actually, I "candy-cane" my shottie with 2 rd. #1 buck, 1 slug, 2 rd. #1buck, then a final slug... with a #1buck in the chamber. Everyone else I know uses 00 Buck, though... I guess it's been marketed pretty well.

horseshoe3 | 10-07-2009 03:58 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD I agree that #4 buck is a great compromise for the reasons you have stated. But consider this: Buckshot does not spread much. Especially at HD ranges. So the conventional wisdom that you need more projectiles to increase hit probability is dubious at best. Knowing that, it seems that the biggest shot you could stuff in the shell would be best. 00 Buck would be absolutely devastating, and I can't see much chance of overpenetration. Basically the same energy as getting hit by 18 .22LR bullets simultaneously. That said, unless the intruder is wearing armor or very heavy winter clothing, 7-1/2 shot should do the job. But why risk it when there are better options?

foolsgold | 10-07-2009 03:59 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD He won't be alive to testify against me that's for sure. 00buck 15 pellets magnums. I've shot them the kick is no big deal. http://goldismoney.info/forums/pictu...&pictureid=270 http://goldismoney.info/forums/pictu...&pictureid=282 For further information consult the box-o-truth website. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

horseshoe3 | 10-07-2009 04:01 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Also, more projectiles = more opportunity for riccochette. That is probably a greater danger indoors than overpenetration.

Fullpower | 10-07-2009 04:02 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Guns are icky. Show the disadvantaged mis-understood home invaders your VOTE for CHANGE bumper sticker collection.

Absintheur | 10-07-2009 04:10 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD I feel in 12 gauge 00 Buck is the best choice. Birdshot does not have the penetration needed in most cases, contact woulds not included. Smaller sizes of buck also trade penetration for an increased number of projectiles. The theory is you will have a better chance of hitting with more. However in the home you will likely miss completely or get the majority of pellets on target as the pattern will only be 4-6 inches at home defense reanges. So why not make the most of your shotgun's capabilities and hit them with the heaviest pellets you can and have a better chance of the pellets reaching the vitals. I will also add that when Capstick had to go into the brush after a wounded leopard he loaded up with 00 Buck because it worked against human sized thin skinned things that were trying to kill him. Our own military has advocated 00 Buck as well for many years...it works.

BellevueBully | 10-07-2009 04:10 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Quote:
Originally Posted by horseshoe3 (Post 1959950) That is probably a greater danger indoors than overpenetration.
Ahhh. I wasn't sure what he meant by that.

low_five | 10-07-2009 04:11 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD slugs or go home

Gaillo | 10-07-2009 04:11 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Quote:
Originally posted by Fullpower: Guns are icky. <strike>Show</strike> Bait the disadvantaged mis-understood home invaders with your VOTE for CHANGE bumper sticker collection.
There... fixed that for you! :biggrin:

FreeMyLand | 10-07-2009 04:13 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Quote:
Originally Posted by foolsgold (Post 1959938) He won't be alive to testify against me that's for sure. 00buck 15 pellets magnums. I've shot them the kick is no big deal. For further information consult the box-o-truth website. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
Great link - really has me thinking about switching from #4 buckshot to 00. horseshoe3: Quote:
But consider this: Buckshot does not spread much. Especially at HD ranges. So the conventional wisdom that you need more projectiles to increase hit probability is dubious at best. Knowing that, it seems that the biggest shot you could stuff in the shell would be best.
Excellent point that I hadn't even considered. After seeing looking at The Box O' Truth link, your point was very well confirmed. So, now I am beginning to see the reason for 00 Buck's popularity!!

mightymanx | 10-07-2009 04:21 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Personaly I figure a deer is the same body type and mass as a person, so I would not shoot a deer with bird shot and I feel the same way as to shooting people. Now for the shells in a house I am only shooting 20' max so I use the 1.75" mini shells from Aguila I can fit 3 more of them in my gun than 2.75 allowing a higher capacity of the shotgun. I would test to see if your gun will feed them before banking your life on them!! http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_s..._12ga_Min.html

FedUp | 10-07-2009 04:39 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Another vote slugs here. Stop...don't make me shoot you....I don't want to clean up the mess.

silverbullet | 10-07-2009 04:42 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD My personal choice for inside the house? 20 gauge youth model semi-auto with 2 3/4" loads of #3 buckshot. Carries 20 .25" pellets in each round. 5 rounds in weapon, 5 more on the stock That's a lot of holes from a little gun. It's right next to the bed all the time... Everybody has their own preferences, and reasons for making the choice. I don't really think there is a "right" or a "wrong" answer. Find something you're comfortable with.

SilverCity | 10-07-2009 05:00 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD At 15 feet, birdshot is still in the cup, and will blow a hole you can see daylight through...but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it. Many police depts have switched from 4buck to 00...because 4 will bounce off windshields straight-on and 00 penetrates. Me? I load #1, 0, or 00 buck in my 12 gauge, but I wouldn't be too worried with #3 in that 20 gauge for inside the home.

Real Money Now | 10-07-2009 05:28 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Quote:
Originally Posted by low_five (Post 1959979) slugs or go home
Intermixed 00 Buck and Slugs.

foolsgold | 10-07-2009 05:34 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Consider getting a night light for the little darling too. The surefire forend replaces the exist one on my 870. http://goldismoney.info/forums/pictu...&pictureid=596 http://goldismoney.info/forums/pictu...&pictureid=281

Heimdhal | 10-07-2009 05:35 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD The dutch loading has been found to be a weak method. That is, mixing differing types of ammunition. In high stress environments, carefull counting of shots fired can quickly be overcome by a fight to the death, pump out rounds, adrenaline rush. Did I fire 2 shots, or three? Which number exactly was that slug on? Oh shit, hes still shooting at me! War experienced soldiers encounter this regularly and on the whole, mixed loading is ill advised at best. Slugs have over penetration issues at SD/HD ranges, but if you arent terribly worried about that, they have some awesome stopping abilities. I'd say genearly anything from 00 to #4 buck is perfectly acceptable. I prefer 00. There are low recoil loads that amke follow up shots easier without an excessive loss in velocity as well. Bird shot is ill advised, but every persons situation is different. If you can sucessful, confidantly and dependibly mix-load, more power to ya.

FreeMyLand | 10-07-2009 06:59 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Ok, You guys convinced me... Spent my PM money on 200 rounds of 00 Buck and 200 rounds of 1 oz slugs, along with a new shotgun. Got a good deal on Winchester Slugs 2 3/4" for $3.77 per box of 5 at Sportsman's Guide, and found a good deal at Cabela's web site for 10 rounds 00 Buck of S&B for $4.99 (which I have shot before and was very happy with) . I'm amazed that Shotgun ammo isn't ridiculously high like pistol ammo is. I got 00 Buck for about the same price that .45 ACP is going for, and slugs for not much more! I just picked up a Mossy 590A1, 9 Shot with ghost ring and speed feed stock as a new toy, so the topic of shotgun ammo has all of a sudden been on my mind...

Absintheur | 10-07-2009 07:12 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD My 1100 holds 10+1 rounds of 00 Buck and I added a Speedfeed stock that I keep loaded with 4 slugs. If 11 rounds of buck doesn't solve the problem then I figure I might need more penetration. Of course that long of a mag extension means a longer barrel, I use a 25" Hastings Wad-Loc barrel with straight rifling. This produces a very tight and dense pattern. I don't worry about the longer barrel as I consider the shotgun to be a bunker weapon, mine will be used from the far side of the bed away from the door. There will also be a 2M candlepower flood aimed on that doorway. If I feel the need to clear the house I will use a handgun. http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z...ns/1100a-1.jpg Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeMyLand (Post 1960300) found a good deal at Cabela's web site for 10 rounds 00 Buck of S&B for $4.99 (which I have shot before and was very happy with) .
Only thing I don't like about the S&B is it's extra length cuts the capacity of my shotgun down by one round. http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z...s/buckshot.jpg

SLV>GLD | 10-07-2009 07:15 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD 00 Buck 2-3/4 Low Recoil. 2-3/4 gets one more round in the tube. Low Recoil for faster follow up shots. 00 Buck because i really dig the pattern it puts on paper and the mess it makes of thick or liquid targets.

Doge | 10-07-2009 07:17 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD What is the general preference for shotgun stocks around here? Straight or pistol grip?

Irons | 10-07-2009 07:18 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD 1 Attachment(s) ................

hoarder | 10-07-2009 07:23 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Up here I'm more likely to have a bear crash through my door as a human so it's all slugs for me. I've seen what slugs can do at close range. I shot some old pieces of 8"x8" creosted railroad tie with slugs at 7 yards and they exploded! I recovered the slugs and they were deformed but intact. If you get hit by a slug you'll feel the wind blow through you.

hoarder | 10-07-2009 07:25 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Quote:
Originally Posted by Doge (Post 1960332) What is the general preference for shotgun stocks around here? Straight or pistol grip?
Straight only. Pistol grips are for "tacticool" zombie killers.

FreeMyLand | 10-07-2009 07:40 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Quote:
Originally Posted by Doge (Post 1960332) What is the general preference for shotgun stocks around here? Straight or pistol grip?
I prefer straight stocks to pistol grips as well. I only have 1 shotgun with a pistol grip, a Mossberg 835 Ulti-Mag Tactical Turkey gun. The pistol grip doesn't bother me too bad - I just think it looks odd on a shotgun for some reason. http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossb.../New/63100.jpg I prefer the look and feel of the straight stocks that have a bit of a pistol grip shape integrated into the stock - which the rest of my shotguns have.

Absintheur | 10-07-2009 08:14 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 1960347) Straight only. Pistol grips are for "tacticool" zombie killers.
I would obviously disagree with that statement unless you mean a pistol grip only. A buttstock w/ pistol grip like the Speedfeed stock on my 1100 actually aids in reducing muzzle rise for faster follow up shots. How you ask? the pistol grip provides a lower leverage point as you pull the gun into your shoulder thus providing more resistance to muzzle flip. I shave a few tenths off my pin runs due to that alone. Also as I shoot an FN/FAL as well as ARs it is the same feel.

Irons | 10-07-2009 08:38 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD In your home, made of thin wood and probably the garbage called drywall your best load is low brass 6 or 8 shot out of a short barrel. Before you whine and cry that won't stop a zombie, please show me a human that took a full blast of 8 shot in the face at 8 feet that could argue with you about it. Its kind of hard to be a threat when your eyes are blown out and your nose and jaw is perforated. This type of load also will not go through walls and kill your family, or other folks 2 houses away, but anything in front of it is done. Your call!:ok:

SLV>GLD | 10-07-2009 08:46 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Your assumption is that my walls are wood framed drywall. Your assumption is mistaken. Your assumption is that no man takes birdshot to the face and keeps coming. Your assumption is mistaken and there are police reports to refute it. Your assumption is that drywall will stop birdshot. Your assumption is mistaken.

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Irons | 10-07-2009 08:52 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Like I said, your call. And last I heard eyelids don't deflect lead shot of any size.

Grim | 10-07-2009 09:07 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD There are several factors to consider in your ammunition choice for home defense. What are your walls (specifically outer walls) made of and thickness? Where are you located, in the country with the closest neighbor several hunderd yards away or in the city with next house 20 feet away? Slugs can possibly penetrate a badguy (depending on shot placement, body composition, etc) and also go through your outer wall to strike a person, vehicle, etc on the outside. A slug can also penetrate the outer wall of your house and into your neighbor's house possibly striking someone (depending on the wall composition of each house. Some buddies of mine and I used to build different types of walls to conduct penetration tests with different handgun, rifle, and shotgun rounds and I can tell you that there are shotgun slugs out there that can do what is listed above. Back in the mid-90s I hung a deer (not gutted) in front of a cinderblock wall and was able to penetrate the deer, breach the wall, and hit the target behind the wall, go figure. Number 4 up to 00-buck will serve you well. For inside the house I actually use #4 to cut down on penetration between rooms to keep my kids safe. Where I live, in El Paso, the outer walls are very thin and I have no doubt whatsoever that a slug could possibly end up in one of my neighbor's homes.

____hoot____ | 10-07-2009 09:17 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Quote:
Originally Posted by Irons (Post 1960513) In your home, made of thin wood and probably the garbage called drywall your best load is low brass 6 or 8 shot out of a short barrel. Before you whine and cry that won't stop a zombie, please show me a human that took a full blast of 8 shot in the face at 8 feet that could argue with you about it. Its kind of hard to be a threat when your eyes are blown out and your nose and jaw is perforated. This type of load also will not go through walls and kill your family, or other folks 2 houses away, but anything in front of it is done. Your call!:ok:
Too more points: Gee Officer, I only shot him with bird shot Gee Officer, all I had in the gun was bird shot so I'm sorry about all the holes I had to put through him Gee Officer I'm so sorry, I would of never thought that soft #8 shot would go through kevlar weave like water

Irons | 10-07-2009 09:17 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim (Post 1960567) There are several factors to consider in your ammunition choice for home defense. What are your walls (specifically outer walls) made of and thickness? Where are you located, in the country with the closest neighbor several hunderd yards away or in the city with next house 20 feet away? Slugs can possibly penetrate a badguy (depending on shot placement, body composition, etc) and also go through your outer wall to strike a person, vehicle, etc on the outside. A slug can also penetrate the outer wall of your house and into your neighbor's house possibly striking someone (depending on the wall composition of each house. Some buddies of mine and I used to build different types of walls to conduct penetration tests with different handgun, rifle, and shotgun rounds and I can tell you that there are shotgun slugs out there that can do what is listed above. Back in the mid-90s I hung a deer (not gutted) in front of a cinderblock wall and was able to penetrate the deer, breach the wall, and hit the target behind the wall, go figure. Number 4 up to 00-buck will serve you well. For inside the house I actually use #4 to cut down on penetration between rooms to keep my kids safe. Where I live, in El Paso, the outer walls are very thin and I have no doubt whatsoever that a slug could possibly end up in one of my neighbor's homes.
Welcome aboard Grim, Thank You for the facts you posted. Unfortunately the armchair commandos around here will disagree.

low_five | 10-07-2009 09:19 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 1960347) Straight only. Pistol grips are for "tacticool" zombie killers.
I agree with the bears and the pistol grip. pistol grip is cool and all, but I bet if you get in a quick fire type situation and **** your wrist up because you didnt stiffen in it time, then you are out of the game. you could have a trillion+1 rounds but limp wristing around a pistol grip shotgun from the hip isnt going to get you very far. even changing hands is going to be akward. and over on selief lane, this bear crashed through this guys back door and I dont want to be throwing out a few pellets if that ever happens at my house. These brown bears will go to the corner of your log cabin and open it up like a refrigerator. **** that. Ill give him one warning shot.

SLV>GLD | 10-07-2009 09:23 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Quote:
Originally Posted by ____hoot____ (Post 1960586) Gee Officer, I only shot him with bird shot
Gee, judge, his story sure sounded sadder than mine and look how messed up the poor guy is for life. I suppose, you're right, I do owe him damages. vs. Dead men tell no tales... Call me an armchair commando if you wish, but if an intruder is coming into my house and meets my shotgun I intend for that person to become a dead neutralized threat not just be a wounded neutralized threat.

TTAZZMAN | 10-07-2009 10:40 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD i would subjest going to the range...back yard or whereever you can shoot legal .... shotgun shellls are relatively cheap... pace off 7-8 paces typical indoor SD max range take several pieces of cardboard....put a 2inch square patch of duct tape in the middle.. take careful aim with #4.....up to 00 shoot each board with different ammo see how your shot pattern is to the aim point......some guns shoot different ammo to different spots count the pellets in a 1ft circle..... decide then what ammo your going to load for SD....or which you would hate the most to get shot with

Real Money Now | 10-08-2009 01:23 AM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Quote:
Originally Posted by Doge (Post 1960332) What is the general preference for shotgun stocks around here? Straight or pistol grip?
Straight. I regard pistol grips as useless "tacticool" in all civilian scenarios.

Saul Mine | 10-08-2009 06:59 AM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Your first check for all such questions should be http://www.theboxotruth.com/. They have tested shot size and found that bird shot won't penetrate blue jeans. Since most people wear some sort of clothes, you really ought to pick a more effective ammo. Another thing they discuss there is what other ammo to consider. And one of the most important aspects to that question is what other ammo you might be able to get. In most cases the choice is limited to one size of bird shot and one size of buck shot, even though other sizes are obviously better choices. They have also tested rock salt, rolls of dimes, and other impromptu loads, and most of them are jokes.

____hoot____ | 10-08-2009 01:37 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 1960605) Gee, judge, his story sure sounded sadder than mine and look how messed up the poor guy is for life. I suppose, you're right, I do owe him damages. vs. Dead men tell no tales... Call me an armchair commando if you wish, but if an intruder is coming into my house and meets my shotgun I intend for that person to become a dead neutralized threat not just be a wounded neutralized threat.
Well Cherney swore his lawyer was at least 20 yards away when he hit him with a load of #8 dove shot out of a 28 gauge and damned near killed him. Several penetrations through the rib cage. I have blasted things and animals with small birdshot within the 20 foot range you are dealing with inside most houses, and they would be dead dead dead if they were a person.

Absintheur | 10-08-2009 03:25 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD This article says it very well... http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu91.htm ...bird shot is simply too light to penetrate the needed distance to effectively stop aggressive behavior. I have tried various sizes of shot through both 4 layers of denim as well as through a medium weight leather jacket covering balistics gel and even the 2s and 4s fail to penetrate much more than 6 inches through the demin and 4 inches through the leather. Yes it creates a nasty looking surface wound but it is not deep enough. I have also seen testing shooting a pig dressed in light cotton shirt, at 5 yards the #6 shot made a nasty wound but it was only about 2 3/4inches in depth...way short of what is needed. Also rib bones stopped many of the pellets cold. If you want to you can test this yourself, if you don't want to mess with having to chill blocks of gel you can use Perma-Gel. Go to Goodwill and pick up a denim jacket and a leather jacket, the to the butcher and get a side of spare ribs (not baby back). Jacket over the ribs, ribs against the gel and measure the result. btw...all of the testing i have done has used gel produced using FBI protocols. I have been in on the shooting of several tons of this stuff for research. One more thought...if bird shot is so safe yet so deadly why doesn't any military or law enforcement agency use it?

Raven | 10-08-2009 05:36 PM
Re: Shotgun Shot Size For HD Bird shot is NOT a HD round. Regarding pistol grips, a shot gun with just a pisol grip is uncomfortable and even painful to shoot. Plus I don't think it's that easy to recover for a second shot. And chances are you will not practice with it too much. Pistol grips with a butt stock are a matter of choice. The military uses them (See Benelli) and my experience is that if you are shooting from the hip the pistol grip gives more control (particular for the second round) Plus my wife has an easier time with the pistol grip. It's nothing to do with looks. It's what feels 'right' for you. Check them out and form your own opinon for your own use. P.S. four #00 followed by two slugs is a helpful 'mixed' load. If they are armored up and the buck shot doesn't get them, the slug will.

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