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shades2 | 04-21-2008 12:11 PM
Shooting improving Well today I went to the range and sent 150 rounds of 9mm down-range with the Glock 34. On my last target, things started coming together, and I was shooting very nice bulls once more at 11 yards. I find I have to give total focus to what I'm doing and not rush, then I get great accuracy. It's quite satisfying being able to shoot almost as well as my RO. :-) I now have a good isoceles stance, grip, posture that suits my shooting, with practice, I hope to speed things up a bit and retain most of the accuracy. Took me 100 rounds to really warm up and settle down into things though.

Big_Rob | 04-21-2008 12:28 PM
Re: Shooting improving 1 Attachment(s) heres a correction target. I wish I had access to a larger printer so I could print it to a full sized target

wallew | 04-21-2008 01:02 PM
Re: Shooting improving Big Rob, One of the things you said you should take to heart. It's the 'not rush' statement. I can name NUMEROUS gunfights, where someone emptied their weapon at a target and didn't hit it at all. From LESS than ten feet. I was watching 'The Red Headed Stranger' (80's western with Willie Nelson) and Ben Johnson was sitting at a table in a saloon and some guy grabbed his gun off the table and fired all five shots. Blew up stuff all around Ben, but never came close to hitting him. Ben calmly picked HIS gun up off the table and put one center mass. Now I KNOW it's hollyweird, but that's how LOADS of gunfights go. One guy shooting his rocks off. The other guy CALMLY, SLOWLY takes aim and drops his adversary with ONE shot. THAT'S what every one should practice. THE CALMLY, SLOWLY taking aim and hitting your target EVERY TIME with one shot.

Stonewall | 04-21-2008 01:15 PM
Re: Shooting improving I have to diagree about taking your time and carefully aiming every shot for defensive shooting practice. When your heart rate is going nutz, a carefull and controlled aim is not an option unless you have been extensively programmed to do so. Muscle memory is the trick. Instead of shooting 100 rounds in 10 or so mag loads, try only one round in the pistol at a time, draw from concealment, and pop off that first shot in a fast but controlled manner. You will get faster and faster by working from beneath the envelope. The first shot from concealment is absolutley key in a gunfight.

SWRichmond | 04-21-2008 03:54 PM
Re: Shooting improving PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE Squeezing the trigger rapidly is not the same thing as yanking it. You must not over-anticipate the moment of firing. All other things being correct, you are focused on what you see and on trigger pressure. When the gun fires, you should get a picture of where the shot went. If you don't, you are hurrying. Learn to shoot, THEN learn to shoot fast. If you ever feel yourself getting tired during a practice session, STOP. You will start hurrying shots even more and will learn bad habits. I don't know about dry-firing Glocks. I learned trigger control from dry-firing 1911's a few billion times with re-sized but spent cases in the chamber (spent primers seated). Make yourself a reduced-size target suitable to a dry-firing distance in your home. Dry-fire and WATCH THE SIGHT PICTURE. It should not move, at all. Do this 50 times a day until you feel like you have no life.

Professur | 04-21-2008 04:06 PM
Re: Shooting improving I hope the 'bad guys' give you enough time to squeeze off 100 warm up rounds before they get serious:) Just kidding. At worst, you're getting in trigger time, which is more than most can say. Does your range offer more than just stationary standing target? Often, that's the trouble. Did you ever know someone in school who knew everything, but would always freeze up during tests? I know people who totally suck at indoor archery, but do great on 3D shoots. They say standing at the shooting line feels too much like an exam.

Professur | 04-21-2008 04:21 PM
Re: Shooting improving Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumwaldee (Post 1071793) but Yeager curses at the students (or so I hear) and I have a real problem with that...gun training might turn into a gun fight. What is that Zen saying? A day with the master is like a year training alone. (or something like that)
Actually, there's value in that. If you ever need to pull a gun on someone, odds are ... they're not going to be very civil about it. If you're going to own and carry, that's something you need to be able to set aside and keep your head about. If an instructor yelling and swearing is enough to put you off, perhaps you should reconsider gun ownership. Using a weapon should always be a decision, not a reflex.

wallew | 04-21-2008 05:05 PM
Re: Shooting improving Stonewall, I've pulled a weapon four times over thirty plus years, cocked, front sight dead on the target. IN EVERY INSTANCE, MUSCLE MEMORY MEANT DIDDLY. I WAS READY TO DROP THE HAMMER IF MY COMMANDS WERE NOT ADHERED TO. Funny how looking down the barrel of a large caliber pistol gets the attention of bad guys RIGHT NOW. But in each instance, my breathing was calm, my heart rate LOWERS and I am in full control. Were I required to pull the trigger, I've found that during stressful situations, my time awareness 'slows down' and I see things MOST do not. And muscle memory will do NOTHING for that. You either do or do not have that experience. I DO. MOST DO NOT. And no, so far I've NOT had to shoot anyone, but would have if necessary. And yeah, I'd have slept WELL that evening.

Heimdhal | 04-21-2008 05:28 PM
Re: Shooting improving Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumwaldee (Post 1071814) I have control of myself. I just don't see any need to pay for disrespect...I can get it on the net for free! And trust me...if someone gets in my face cursing at me(which is assault as far as I'm concerned) they will have a gun in their face or they'll be flat on their back with me sitting on their chest. I'm not into that whole "turn the other cheek" thing. I see no need to condition myself to allow others to shout obscenities at me. YMMV. *ETA--After 5 years of that sort of thing in the marines...I guess I feel like I've had enough.
I hear ya on that brother devil dog. I've actualy found that in many cases involving training some one with firearms(in civilian life) that the screaming and the yelling is NOT the most effective way. If you are trying some one in cqb, conceal carry you can get their emotions and adrenaline high and stir tension in the air without getting in their face and busting their ass into the dirt.

Stonewall | 04-22-2008 08:47 AM
Re: Shooting improving Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1071858) Stonewall, I've pulled a weapon four times over thirty plus years, cocked, front sight dead on the target. IN EVERY INSTANCE, MUSCLE MEMORY MEANT DIDDLY. I WAS READY TO DROP THE HAMMER IF MY COMMANDS WERE NOT ADHERED TO. Funny how looking down the barrel of a large caliber pistol gets the attention of bad guys RIGHT NOW. But in each instance, my breathing was calm, my heart rate LOWERS and I am in full control. Were I required to pull the trigger, I've found that during stressful situations, my time awareness 'slows down' and I see things MOST do not. I suggest that you go back an read my post once again just incase you ever get into a REAL self defense situation. And muscle memory will do NOTHING for that. You either do or do not have that experience. I DO. MOST DO NOT. And no, so far I've NOT had to shoot anyone, but would have if necessary. And yeah, I'd have slept WELL that evening.
Sorry, but you are DEAD wrong, and your tactical advice is a good way to get someone that listens to it killed. Like I said earlier, muscle memory is everything in CQC. Pulling your gun on someone in order to control them and being involved in a gunfight are two different things. If I pull a gun on someone, it is for one reason only. It sounds like you are using a gun to control someone and not actually defend your life. Let me ask, was your adversary armed and presenting when you were? If no then a tazer would have been just as effective in all four of your situations. Great video for you on how to control someone with a gun: http://youtube.com/watch?v=2REG3-Wb5gM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2REG3-Wb5gM

shades2 | 04-22-2008 11:10 AM
Re: Shooting improving Quote:
Originally Posted by Professur (Post 1071778) I hope the 'bad guys' give you enough time to squeeze off 100 warm up rounds before they get serious:) Just kidding. At worst, you're getting in trigger time, which is more than most can say. Does your range offer more than just stationary standing target? Often, that's the trouble. Did you ever know someone in school who knew everything, but would always freeze up during tests? I know people who totally suck at indoor archery, but do great on 3D shoots. They say standing at the shooting line feels too much like an exam.
I needed the range time, I often have 2-3 week absences from the range and that's not good, it's amazing how quickly your shooting deteriorates over time as you lose the good habits and slip back into bad ones. I rarely shoot other guns now at the range due to cost, and I prefer to know my own pistol, than some range hack gun which will teach me other bad habits. As I travel to the range and when I get there, I start doing mental drills on shooting form and the actions to take, I find this helps. I'm qualified on safe holster training etc. so I can shoot action match, and progress to prac pistol, but that is another 6 day course which cannot be done at my present range. I may very well do that course, then I can run around on an outside range and shoot cardboard. I do actually like bullseye shooting, if I could afford it I'd also have a nice target .22, but I don't. What has amazed me in the past, is how well women can shoot, I'm not sure why that is, but they seem to have much steadier hands and don't get as agitated as males. I have seen women with no shooting experience shoot very well. Of course a range is a safe, controlled environment too though which helps.

Professur | 04-22-2008 11:18 AM
Re: Shooting improving You've got that right. Bad habits are murder. As for wimmen ... they've got a couple of helpful tools. First off, they don't feel the need to carry the biggest, baddest gun on the market, and shoot what they feel they can handle. Second, they've often got shorter arms. Short arms mean a more stable shooting platform.

shades2 | 04-22-2008 11:31 AM
Re: Shooting improving Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumwaldee (Post 1071814) I have control of myself. I just don't see any need to pay for disrespect...I can get it on the net for free! And trust me...if someone gets in my face cursing at me(which is assault as far as I'm concerned) they will have a gun in their face or they'll be flat on their back with me sitting on their chest. I'm not into that whole "turn the other cheek" thing. I see no need to condition myself to allow others to shout obscenities at me. YMMV. *ETA--After 5 years of that sort of thing in the marines...I guess I feel like I've had enough.
Not sure I'd agree with that reaction. If someone is abusing you verbally, sometimes the best course of action is to walk away or get away, it may make you very steamed, but you can always break something later to make up for it. :) This is one of the first rules of self-defense, words are not worth getting into a fight for, the enemy gets a vote, and you might end up with terrible injuries that could have been easily avoided by swallowing some pride. You can lay charges for verbal assault later, particularly if there are witnesses. You can also get in their face, but realise that YOU are likely the one escalating the confrontation at that point. If you have to deal with it physically, ie. the person is unarmed or appears physically threatening, or is making threats to you or others, then knock them over by all means. Not hard to break someone's knee, if you know what you're doing... I think pulling a gun massively escalates a situation from a regular fight or argument into something much nastier. Remember also that criminals don't play by the rules, and will remember "the guy that pulled the gun on me", and may try and blindside you sometime out of spite. You also advertise the fact you have a gun which is to be avoided. I therefore don't see guns as an immediate go-to item for problem solving. They cause far more problems/complications when put to use than when left alone in most cases. If you are in genuine threat of your life, or for the safety of others, then I feel it becomes a legitimate tool to shut down that threat. I may be in the minority, but that is how I feel about the matter.

shades2 | 04-22-2008 11:34 AM
Re: Shooting improving Quote:
Originally Posted by Professur (Post 1072883) You've got that right. Bad habits are murder. As for wimmen ... they've got a couple of helpful tools. First off, they don't feel the need to carry the biggest, baddest gun on the market, and shoot what they feel they can handle. Second, they've often got shorter arms. Short arms mean a more stable shooting platform.
Hey that's interesting! I never thought of the short arms as a factor. The down-side is that women generally have weak upper-body strength in comparison to a male, and will tire quicker. Smaller hands also make it harder to operate the pistol controls, such as reach the slide release.

Stonewall | 04-22-2008 03:14 PM
Re: Shooting improving Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 1072909) Not sure I'd agree with that reaction. If someone is abusing you verbally, sometimes the best course of action is to walk away or get away, it may make you very steamed, but you can always break something later to make up for it. :) This is one of the first rules of self-defense, words are not worth getting into a fight for, the enemy gets a vote, and you might end up with terrible injuries that could have been easily avoided by swallowing some pride. You can lay charges for verbal assault later, particularly if there are witnesses. You can also get in their face, but realise that YOU are likely the one escalating the confrontation at that point. If you have to deal with it physically, ie. the person is unarmed or appears physically threatening, or is making threats to you or others, then knock them over by all means. Not hard to break someone's knee, if you know what you're doing... I think pulling a gun massively escalates a situation from a regular fight or argument into something much nastier. Remember also that criminals don't play by the rules, and will remember "the guy that pulled the gun on me", and may try and blindside you sometime out of spite. You also advertise the fact you have a gun which is to be avoided. I therefore don't see guns as an immediate go-to item for problem solving. They cause far more problems/complications when put to use than when left alone in most cases. If you are in genuine threat of your life, or for the safety of others, then I feel it becomes a legitimate tool to shut down that threat. I may be in the minority, but that is how I feel about the matter.
Wise words.

shades2 | 04-23-2008 06:57 AM
Re: Shooting improving Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumwaldee (Post 1073392) Shoot first! Ask questions later! Seriously, all I said was...I'm not paying for training where the instructor is going to swear at me. You guys have at it. Remember to turn the other cheek if someone runs up on your and starts berating you with obscenities. Good luck!
Not really acceptable behaviour from an instructor, but then maybe there is more to it, and he is testing you, to find out if you have a short temper or if you can control your anger in a situation. The army does similar things to recruits... the idea being that you can switch an individual into a combat type mode where they are aggressive but don't let the aggression completely control their actions, rather the training takes over. If he wanted to do that, he should say at the start of the course: "I'm going to be pushing your buttons to find your breaking point and weaknesses." Here is an example of a verbal assault, let's assume you're legally carrying a pistol of some description: 1. Walking down street at night minding own business. 2. Two men approach, apparently slightly intoxicated heading for bar. 3. One begins to gesture and make threatening martial arts poses and noises. You are unsure if he is being serious or not, and trying to draw you into a fight. 4. -> Here's where it gets interesting. Obviously this person is not afraid of entering into a fight with you and may be a bit drunk. You can: A) Ignore it and keep walking, while watching your six for any follow-up, and ignoring shouted comments, particularly about chickens. B) Front up to him, thereby raising the level of engagement. Keep in mind you are carrying a gun that could get separated from you in a struggle and possibly used against you or stolen. The fight could also turn 2 on 1 if his friend participates, so your chances of losing are bad. C) Pull a gun and stick it in his face. Possibly attracting all sorts of unwanted attention and the police. No-one is sure if you are the aggressor that has raised the confrontation to this limit, so his friends might pull on you also. Concerned citizens may follow you after the confrontation and supply your vehicle license to the police. I think it's fairly obvious that option A) is the best bet. Everyone gets to go home including said drunken idiot. Apart from some shouting nothing usually transpires. Now, if said drunken idiot pulls out a knife and brandishes it, the gun should clear the holster immediately.

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