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MKS | 06-11-2009 10:53 PM
Reloading Dies I'm new to reloading and was getting ready to buy some RCBS dies for hand guns but when I found a site that had some I had the choice of taper or roll crimp. I asked friend who reloads which ones to get, he said he uses the taper because it is easier. Do you folks agree with that or is there a reason to get the roll crimp dies, e.g. a superior load. The rifle dies are even more confusing, there are form dies, crimp dies, seater dies and trim dies. I'm new to reloading, haven't made one bullet yet and want to get the best equipment I can get. And input is appreciated. Mike

CrufflerJJ | 06-11-2009 11:02 PM
Re: Reloading Dies Go with taper crimp - it's MUCH less sensitive to slight variations in case length.

SilverCity | 06-11-2009 11:14 PM
Re: Reloading Dies It really depends on the cartridge you are loading. Some need a roll crimp, others you can use a taper crimp. Most autoloading pistols you can get away with a taper crimp. But cartridges for most autoloading rifles and lever rifles, etc. need to be roll-crimped into the cannelure (groove) to prevent bullet set-back. Heavy recoiling cartridges like 44 mag, 357 mag, etc. need a roll crimp into the cannelure groove to prevent bullet creep (forward) which can bind the cylinder and disable a revolver. I recently bought a set of Lee factory crimp dies for .223 and .308, and like the fact that you don't need a cannelured bullet, because the die itself makes the groove for you. It is very uniform and you don't risk belling the shoulder of the case...

MKS | 06-11-2009 11:34 PM
Re: Reloading Dies The info is much appreciated guys, I'll be reloading 9M, 38/357, 223, 30-06, 762x39 and eventually 12ga.

electric-amish | 06-12-2009 12:08 AM
Re: Reloading Dies Taper Crimp is more useful for Semi-Auto hand Guns. It holds them close in a hug that allows the Cartridge to smothly slide into breech. Roll Crimp is Vastly superior in Revolvers. The weakness of Revolvers is the potential of a bullet unseating and moveing forward during heavy recoil past the cylinder face. This will not allow the Cylinder to spin and bring the next bullet into the fireing postion. I use roll Crimp dies--Hornady--- for the Semi however and do not adjust them to produce more than a hint of a roll crimp. I Use Redding dies for the Small Revolver because they Set both a Roll crim and a Taper crip if adjusted correctly. I use this on small Revolver because its a small revolver and more subject to violent recoil. Hope I explained this well enough for you to act with confidence. E-A

MKS | 06-12-2009 07:52 AM
Re: Reloading Dies Quote:
Originally Posted by electric-amish (Post 1766038) Taper Crimp is more useful for Semi-Auto hand Guns. It holds them close in a hug that allows the Cartridge to smothly slide into breech. Roll Crimp is Vastly superior in Revolvers. The weakness of Revolvers is the potential of a bullet unseating and moveing forward during heavy recoil past the cylinder face. This will not allow the Cylinder to spin and bring the next bullet into the fireing postion. I use roll Crimp dies--Hornady--- for the Semi however and do not adjust them to produce more than a hint of a roll crimp. I Use Redding dies for the Small Revolver because they Set both a Roll crim and a Taper crip if adjusted correctly. I use this on small Revolver because its a small revolver and more subject to violent recoil. Hope I explained this well enough for you to act with confidence. E-A
E-A I'm certainly farther along than I was thanks to your post. Now I am leaning toward taper dies for my semi auto and roll crimp for my 357. Thanks Mike

electric-amish | 06-12-2009 08:00 AM
Re: Reloading Dies Quote:
Originally Posted by MKS (Post 1766372) E-A I'm certainly farther along than I was thanks to your post. Now I am leaning toward taper dies for my semi auto and roll crimp for my 357. Thanks Mike
For the 357 you absolutely should get roll crimp dies.! .357s are famous for a snappy recoil and you need to hold the bullet tight. Hornady Dies are my favorite to use for hand guns. They are Carbon Steel and do not need the amount of Lube Non Carbon steel dies do. They also have a good Roll Crimp that is perfect on my .44Mag or Specials. E-A

markt | 06-12-2009 08:57 AM
Re: Reloading Dies Always buy carbide dies for pistols and revolvers to avoid having to lube the cases. Rifle cases always need lube so any steel die will do for them.

Walter Mitty | 06-12-2009 09:15 AM
Re: Reloading Dies Straight wall Semi Auto handgun rounds headspace off the case mouth. The case mouth contacts the front of the chamber. So you have to use a taper crimp. Rimmed Revolver cartridges headspace off the case rim. Because of that and because of recoil ,they can and probably should, be roll crimped. I am not sure about the .357 sig. It is a bottle neck so I do not know how it headspaces. If it headspaces off the datum line of the case shoulder you theoretically could roll crimp (which would boost pressure in the reloaded round so probably would not be a good idea). If the .357 sig headspaces off the front of the chamber(case mouth) you must taper crimp. The question is what stops the cartridge from entering to far into the chamber? If it is the front of the case(case mouth) taper crimp. If it is a rim, like on revolver cartridges, roll crimp ( raises pressure). If it is some point on the shoulder of a bottleneck cartridge ( the datum line) taper or roll but roll can raise pressure and affect accuracy.

tulsamal | 06-12-2009 09:59 AM
Re: Reloading Dies The Lee Factory Crimp Dies are very good. If I'm going to start reloading for a new handgun cartridge, I will usually look and see if Lee makes a four die deluxe set for it. After you've reloaded for a while, you will discover that it just works a lot better to crimp after you seat. When you use a single die to do both, it can lead to nose deformation problems. The die is crimping and locking the bullet down while the nose punch is still pushing it down. On bullets with a soft HP tip, you can really mess them up. Of course this is easiest to do if you have a reloading press that lets you mount four or more dies at once. Something like the Lee Classic Turret. So four die sets (carbide of course) are the best way to go. Sometimes you can get a Lee Factory Crimp die to add on to a 2 or 3 die set. As was mentioned, you can get them for some rifle calibers. I have two sets of .223/5.56mm dies and I got a LFC die to use with them. Also got one to use with my 6.8 SPC die set. Works great. Gregg

MKS | 06-13-2009 12:55 PM
Re: Reloading Dies Markt, Yes I'm aware that carbide dies are the way to go because they don't need lube. Walter, thanks for the info, I'm not sure of all you said due to my lack of familiarity with the terms you used but I get the points you made about pressure build up on the 357 sig, ( I don't have 357 sig, just a 357 mag) Tulsamal, I have been wondering about the multi die sets and assumed they would load higher quality bullets, FWIW I have a dillon 650. As for the rifle loads I will be reloading (.223 & 30-06). Is roll crimp best on them? It was recommended by my friend to go with RCBS carbide dies but dang, everyone is sold out, it's like trying to buy primers. Thanks again to all. Mike

hypervel | 06-13-2009 04:56 PM
Re: Reloading Dies Factory crimps for the rifles, Lee does fine. They "pinch" the mouth of the case. On that note, I might recommend against Lee dies otherwise. I really hate to say that, but there was a wee bitty problem with a set of .303 dies that shouldn't have made it out the factory. You know....one "Aw shi*" ruins a thousand atta boys. I like to snag dies off the EvilBay.....have had great luck getting Pacific dies on the cheap. I don't question the quality of RCBS, Lyman, or Hornady for run-of-the-mill loading. High mojo rifle gets you into some of the more exotic dies and aren't likely to be worth your money unless you're going to get into varminting or bench rest shooting. I don't really care about carbide or not. I'm accustomed to lubing and cleaning. It's a few more steps but there are more opportunities to check the brass. But really...... It's the total of all the other equipment and your planning that'll make for a good or bad set of ammo. Spend on a good polisher. Stuck case remover. Primer pocket reamer (swage)for that NATO brass. A good scale. A good (non micrometer I figure) powder measure-I know, you've got your Dillon.....but I like to measure separately all charges for defensive auto ammo. No oopsies allowed. And a lathe. Books. New and old, no matter what "they" say. Powder manufacturers post reasonable recipes online. They IMO will provide correction to the grain weight relative to whatever formulation they may have modified or tweaked recently. Chrony...to check your math. In fact, Buy the chrony before you go ANY FURTHER!!!! I know some or most will disagree. Spend the $80 on the chrony. Go on, do it. Load 3 then chrony. You need to know what you're doing is right well before kaboom. A lazy susan is the best for lube coverage if you spray lube. I like high VOC spray lubes, and have used the pump bottle eco-crap. I have a sneakin' suspicion the pump lube is just canola. Seriously. I haven't needed small base dies. Having said that, I think I might get one for .223. Any insurance against jamming an auto is worth it. Ammonia kills brass. Case annealing is worth looking into. Good luck, have fun. Be safe.

tulsamal | 06-13-2009 07:27 PM
Re: Reloading Dies Quote:
I really hate to say that, but there was a wee bitty problem with a set of .303 dies that shouldn't have made it out the factory. You know....one "Aw shi*" ruins a thousand atta boys.
Another good thing about Lee is that they have a reputation for no questions asked support. If you have a Lee product that isn't "right," send it back and they will send you a new one!! They have sent me several things for free over the years when I actually expected to pay. (Because I broke something or other through my faulty actions.) See you say you are going to be using a Dillon 650, I would probably go with Dillon dies myself. Their dies are specially designed for their progressive presses and the little things can matter. I might still get a Lee Factory Crimp die for that final step though.... Gregg

LukeNM | 06-13-2009 08:01 PM
Re: Reloading Dies I use the Lee Factory Crimp dies for 9mm, 40S&W, 38 Special, .357 Magnum, 45 Colt and .223 Remington. Never had an issue with them.

MKS | 06-14-2009 08:31 AM
Re: Reloading Dies Quote:
Originally Posted by hypervel (Post 1768326) It's the total of all the other equipment and your planning that'll make for a good or bad set of ammo. Spend on a good polisher. Stuck case remover. Primer pocket reamer (swage)for that NATO brass. A good scale. A good (non micrometer I figure) powder measure-I know, you've got your Dillon.....but I like to measure separately all charges for defensive auto ammo. No oopsies allowed. And a lathe. Books. New and old, no matter what "they" say. Powder manufacturers post reasonable recipes online. They IMO will provide correction to the grain weight relative to whatever formulation they may have modified or tweaked recently. Chrony...to check your math. In fact, Buy the chrony before you go ANY FURTHER!!!! I know some or most will disagree. Spend the $80 on the chrony. Go on, do it. Load 3 then chrony. You need to know what you're doing is right well before kaboom. A lazy susan is the best for lube coverage if you spray lube. I like high VOC spray lubes, and have used the pump bottle eco-crap. I have a sneakin' suspicion the pump lube is just canola. Seriously. I haven't needed small base dies. Having said that, I think I might get one for .223. Any insurance against jamming an auto is worth it. Ammonia kills brass. Case annealing is worth looking into. Good luck, have fun. Be safe.
Hypervel, I really haven't gotten to the point of thinking about the other equipment I'll need, except for the chrony, there's no other way I'd know FPS of my loads. When you say polisher do you mean the tumbler/vibrator for tumbling brass? I was a machinist for years so I can use a lathe but what would I need it for? Thanks for the info, Mike

CrufflerJJ | 06-14-2009 12:05 PM
Re: Reloading Dies Quote:
Originally Posted by MKS (Post 1769165) I was a machinist for years so I can use a lathe but what would I need it for?
By "lathe", he may mean a case trimmer, for trimming down rifle cases to the proper length before loading. Just my guess....

tulsamal | 06-14-2009 12:59 PM
Re: Reloading Dies Quote:
When you say polisher do you mean the tumbler/vibrator for tumbling brass?
Most people who reload a lot use some type of vibrating case cleaner. It's a convenient and easy way to clean up your dirty brass before you start resizing. Throw a bunch of dirty brass in there with some tumbler media and let it run all night. The next day you have bright and shiny brass. One tip I had to learn the hard way. It is best to tumble one type of brass at a time. One time I put a bunch of .45 ACP, 9mm, .357 SIG, and .40 S&W brass in at once. When I removed them all the next day, I was amazed at how many pieces of brass had "nested" together. If you put something like a .357 SIG case inside a .45 ACP case and fill up the gaps along the side with cleaning media, it is pure hell and aggravation to get them separated again without wrecking the cases!! Gregg Gregg

hypervel | 06-14-2009 06:13 PM
Re: Reloading Dies Well, vibratory is the most common. I ended up with a Lyman (forgot model name) but came with 2 bowls and I really like it. The other that I am aware of is a Thumbler Tumbler. Meant for rock polishing.....you see the meaning I presume. Very 'spensive. Cruffler is right about the case trimmer. I call it a miniature lathe in reference to a Tim Allen space flick spoof. Galaxy Quest. The reason I mention all the stuff besides press and dies is that, IMO, prep is the key to good ammo. It's such a labor intensive process....also you said you are new to loading. If you're a busy guy like I am, you'll possibly have to spread your prep and assembly over time. Mashing together loads in a day's time is totally possible, but taking the time to really go through the steps- well- you'll end up making 10 rounds a day so to speak. rereading your response...... The case trimmer is for returning stretched brass to a proper OAL. Also is handy for truing up necks on rifle cases. Feel free to ask the board all you want. You'll probably get dissimilar answers-but not really likely any of them wrong. Also a fast way to avoid mistakes or get hot tips. Pretty tired. Got the wood for '09&'10 laid up. Time to move on.

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