Gold & Silver Forum (http://goldismoney.info/forums/index.php)
- Firearms (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=159)
- - The Runner Ups Are. (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=405587)

blueice | 09-07-2009 09:37 PM
The Runner Ups Are. First, I would like to thank all those members who were so very helfful, in my firearm threads....:adore: After extensive gponding, I have come to the following conclusions....The search is for a semi automatic CC weapon.. At the present, it would also double as Homeland Security... I am discarding the following companies: HK, a German gun maker, priced too high...Anywhere from $750.oo and up. Taurus - Had to many complaints about operating failures... Walther - Several recalls and owned by Smith & Wesson. Sig Sauer - Sig 250, to many bad comments on gun talk forums. Rugar - It's past semi automatics were plagued with countless problems (early 2000). It was very difficult to find many comprehensive reviews about Rugar's product line, but the most recent have been favorable. Nevertheless, because of its past reputation and the lack of information I will pass on this pistol. It is, however, very modesty price for consumers, with prices starting just north of $400.oo. Smith & Wesson M&P - The first thing I notice, was that the magazines were painted steel.. :banghead: This year, the LA Sheriff department announced that they were removing all M&P's from service...Again, complaints about mechanism failures and stress cracks!! We decided are our final choices: Glock & Springfield Armory. The first is made in Austria and the latter, in Croatia... We are seeking a sub-compact with a 3" or 3 1/2" or 4" barrel...Size and weight are important because they will be purchased for a CC environment. The caliber options are: 9x19 (9mm), .357, .40 and 45ACP. When we go ranging, we will be looking for the following traits: A good fit & finish, a good secure and comfortable grip (this is extremely important), weight, recoil and target groupies. In the Glock models, this is the 26J or D frame (9mm), Glock 27, .40 and the Glock 39 .45GAP. The weight for this handguns is an excellent 20 ozs. This model, as well as other Glocks, have received high marks from users. The trigger pull is 5.5lbs or 2.5kg. Priced from $450.oo to $550.oo. The Springfield Armory XD, has also receive high praise as a very excellent pistol...It weights in at some 26 ozs, which is the only bad comment received by this series of handguns. It has two forms of trigger safety; it comes in short 3" barrel, it has a light at the end of the gun, indicating whether the chamber is loaded or not...It also comes in a 4" barrel. These models are also moderately price from $450.oo to $550.oo. The trigger pull is 5.5 - 7.7lbs or 2.5 - 3.7kg. Both the Glock and Springfield models have lifetime warranties for the original buyer.

Rebel Yarr | 09-07-2009 09:44 PM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. Glock 29 - gives you that 10mm man stopper you wanted and slap in the .40 barrel, as I believe Wallew suggested, and you have a low cost plinker. Best of both. You should be looking at CZ if you want a 9mm IMO - or even the .40 - http://cz-usa.com/products/by-category/handguns/ Beretta cx4 is also top notch - Beretta/CZ and Glock would be my finalists if I didn't have any bias to existing guns I owned. You will need to get out and shoot/handle them to know what fits you right - just no way around it! Me, I would do a CZ if I wanted a 9mm - if I wanted a 10mm that has a buttload of accessories/3rd parties and a ability to sawp in a $99 barrel for other calibers ...I would grab the Glock 20 or 29.

moreair | 09-07-2009 09:53 PM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. I have two S&W M&Ps in .40 cal. and the mags are not painted, they are tastefully blued. I have had no problems with my mags or guns. Also, have a Glock .40 cal modle 22, so on and so forth.... Love em all. In all, I have four .40cal pistols. I find it to be a nice round. Glosks are great and I have read great things about the Springfileds. Call around, my brother-n-law picked up a Glock in 9mm about two months ago. I found him one (new) that had night sights and three mags for only about $50.00 more than regular sights and two mags at other stores. Night sights are usually about $100.00, so he basically bought the extra mag and got free night sights.

Bob | 09-07-2009 10:16 PM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. Both the Glock and Springfield are nice weapons. You should pick up both and see which feels better in your hand. Both have warranties, but I know some people prefer the Glock cause you can buy spare parts. Some also prefer the Springfield because of the extra safeties.

CyberGold | 09-07-2009 10:23 PM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. Since you have narrowed down the technical issues, now it is a matter of what feels good in your hand. The grip angles are all different and that will make a big difference when target shooting and learning your gun. Personally I had a Glock 23 and sold it because of the unsupported chamber issue, the problem of shooting lead in the type of rifling they have and the grip angle/thicknes just wasn't comfortable to me. I now have 3 XD's and a M&P which I like a lot. The XD's are super accurate and the grip of the M&P fits like a glove. The mags for the M&P are deep blued - no paint anywhere.

Haltiat | 09-07-2009 10:32 PM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel Yarr (Post 1909044) You should be looking at CZ if you want a 9mm IMO - or even the .40
I agree. Anybody would who actually carry a Glock 26 could and would also actually carry a CZ P-01. They are very close in size but the P-01 is imho a much more practical "real" gun and this is obvious when you hold the two in your hand or study the details of their internals. From a design standpoint the P-01 was built, tested and accepted to be a real duty weapon. The G26 was designed to push the Glock action to the absolute smallest it could possibly go. The CZ P-01 has been accepted by NATO as a weapon of war, the Glock 26 was built for the concealed carry market. Since that wasn't one of the options put forth in the original post I would say that between the XD and the Glock get the Glock every time. It's not that the XD is bad, but you should consider that Glock is what the XD wants to be and much of the high praise comes from enthusiasm over the lower price. It's a good value but if you have the scratch why mess around? My main concern is that even a sub-compact like a Glock 26 probably won't end up getting carried. Most people end up finding they want smaller, more comfortable guns. The number of people who accept that guns should be comforting not comfortable is relatively fewer.

blueice | 09-07-2009 10:41 PM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel Yarr (Post 1909044) Glock 29 - gives you that 10mm man stopper you wanted and slap in the .40 barrel, as I believe Wallew suggested, and you have a low cost plinker. Best of both. Your Rebelship, I had looked at 10mm pistols, however, I believe their is a large shortage of that shell... You should be looking at CZ if you want a 9mm IMO - or even the .40 - http://cz-usa.com/products/by-category/handguns/ Boy, oh boy, you would make my task harder...:favorites21: Actually, it is the nicest crafted handgun I have yet to see, albeit heavy...I will gpond that weapon....Thanky Beretta cx4 is also top notch - Beretta/CZ and Glock would be my finalists if I didn't have any bias to existing guns I owned. I did not like the TV series, I do like the name... You will need to get out and shoot/handle them to know what fits you right - just no way around it! I am taking THE WIFE and meself...We are going to the manufactures show and barrow their guns...:s9: Me, I would do a CZ if I wanted a 9mm - if I wanted a 10mm that has a buttload of accessories/3rd parties and a ability to sawp in a $99 barrel for other calibers ...I would grab the Glock 20 or 29.
You are a wise man, Rebel....Excellent advice...:adore:..:adore:..:adore:

Bx3 | 09-07-2009 11:41 PM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. I have never had problems finding 10mm ammo. While you can't generally walk into Wally World and find it, many real gun stores carry some brands (mostly downloaded to .40 velocities). Some shops even carry the "REAL" 10mm loads like Corbon, Buffalo Bore and my ultimate favorite, Double Tap. All three can be found online from their sources. I buy in bulk so I am never even close to being low on ammo.....I mean that is before I sold all of my guns. Bx3

blueice | 09-08-2009 01:26 AM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 1909099) I agree. Anybody would who actually carry a Glock 26 could and would also actually carry a CZ P-01. They are very close in size but the P-01 is imho a much more practical "real" gun and this is obvious when you hold the two in your hand or study the details of their internals. From a design standpoint the P-01 was built, tested and accepted to be a real duty weapon. The G26 was designed to push the Glock action to the absolute smallest it could possibly go. The CZ P-01 has been accepted by NATO as a weapon of war, the Glock 26 was built for the concealed carry market. Since that wasn't one of the options put forth in the original post I would say that between the XD and the Glock get the Glock every time. It's not that the XD is bad, but you should consider that Glock is what the XD wants to be and much of the high praise comes from enthusiasm over the lower price. It's a good value but if you have the scratch why mess around? My main concern is that even a sub-compact like a Glock 26 probably won't end up getting carried. Most people end up finding they want smaller, more comfortable guns. The number of people who accept that guns should be comforting not comfortable is relatively fewer.
What about all of these Glock going off unintentionally :questionm The CZ 2075 rami, 9mm has been an excellent pistol, unlike the .40 with all of its 'FTF,s".....The customer service is also bad, were servicing can take up six weeks! That is simply not acceptable..

TTAZZMAN | 09-08-2009 01:43 AM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. your getting some good advice on this thread.....most have advised handling and shooting and getting a feel for the gun first... I would say this is extremely important.. for example a glock has a large grip which allows it to hold a double stack mag which is good but if you have a small hand or short fingers you could really become unhappy with it quickly..... shooting one is extremely important because at least for me sometimes ones that feel good in the shop do not feel right and alighn right at the range..

johndoh | 09-08-2009 02:18 AM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. Quote:
Originally Posted by blueice (Post 1909306) What about all of these Glock going off unintentionally :questionm
The instances that I know of all involved someone pulling the trigger when they didn't intend to do so. More than a few cops have fired when holstering their Glock. The grip safety on a XD can help prevent that. You might also want to try out a Ruger SP101, a sweet little .357 revolver that can be carried or used for home protection. You owe it to yourself to try out a couple of 1911's in .45, although they will be more expensive than either the Glock or XD. Kimber makes a couple of nice compacts and then there's my favorite...the Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail. http://static.cz-usa.com/czusa/produ...37x200_q85.png

MetalMoney | 09-08-2009 02:19 AM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. Satisfied XD owner myself. I know the Glock's are rock solid, but the grip angle on the Springfield was more natural for me and required less 'aiming' to be on target. I decided that that issue trumped any minor advantages the Glock may have otherwise had. I do also like the double safety. I've heard of several cops (ok bad example) with accidental self-inflicted gunshot wounds that would have been avoided with anything more than just a trigger safety..

Haltiat | 09-08-2009 03:24 AM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. Quote:
Originally Posted by blueice (Post 1909306) What about all of these Glock going off unintentionally :questionm
It's exactly like all those double action revolvers and decocked double action autos going off unintentionally. Or all those 1911's in condition one that are really in condition zero. Or vice versa. Or all those unloaded guns going off all on their own during cleaning. In other words stupid hurts and there's no engineering you can do on the gun that will remove stupid from the operator. Quote:
The CZ 2075 rami, 9mm has been an excellent pistol, unlike the .40 with all of its 'FTF,s".....
Personally I avoid sub-compacts in calibers over 9x18. Trying to shoehorn full size bullets into pint sized pistols necessarily entails certain compromises that range from recoil springs and sometimes other parts that wear out at an accelerated rate to trouble cycling with anything other than a rock solid hold. There are many good guns in this class that will serve you well if you know what you're doing but it's a case of diminishing returns. If you go up slightly in size you make large gains in functionality, if you go down slightly in caliber you make large gains in concealability and/or working life. Quote:
The customer service is also bad, were servicing can take up six weeks! That is simply not acceptable..
Yeah, good luck with that... Your best bet is to buy a gun that was built right the first time and won't need more than user servicing over the course of its working life. Do the best you can to select something you will actually be comfortable carrying too. It's a truism that mouse guns tend to get carried and fullsize .45's tend to stay home.

Dutch Dog | 09-08-2009 06:19 AM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1909082) Both the Glock and Springfield are nice weapons. You should pick up both and see which feels better in your hand. Both have warranties, but I know some people prefer the Glock cause you can buy spare parts. Some also prefer the Springfield because of the extra safeties.
This X10000

wallew | 09-08-2009 10:23 AM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. 1 Attachment(s) Why 357 SIG? My main handgun of choice is the Glock 31. I really like Glocks and I specially like the 357 SIG caliber. On occasions I also keep a Bersa 9mm handy, loaded either with special EMB ammo or Gold Dot +P+. Some people don’t know much about 357 SIG and think it’s equal to 9mm +P+ or even a notch worse than good 40 S&W. This is some performance information found in Wikipedia on 357 SIG. (click on link for the rest) Ferfal http://ferfal.blogspot.com/search/label/Firearms Go fondle a few Glocks. Tell wherever you go that you WILL be purchasing a new handgun shortly and are just 'trying them on for fit'. ANY gun seller will understand. Me? Personally? Glock 22. Because it's a multi-caliber platform. .40 S&W, .357 Sig, 9mm all out of the same handgun. OK, you have to swap barrels for the OTHER two calibers (.357 S & 9mm) and you would be wise to use Glock 17 mags for the 9mm as they feed better. But these three caliber are the current issue of MOST law enforcement agencies here in the USA. .357 Sig is taking the LEO world by storm. A zippy round for sure. When my CZ-52's price went up to $300 each (3x the price I paid), I sold them. Then went out and purchased one Glock 22 RTF ($520) for each two CZ-52's I sold. I was way ahead of the game at that point. I just LOVE the RTF portion and the Glock 22 fit my hand like a glove. I LOVE THIS SETUP. 5.5 lb trigger pull (you can get a 3.5 lb connector if 5.5 is too stiff - literally a drop in fit for about $10). For mags, go to CDNN. Their prices are excellent. Glock mags (except 33 round job) are $21.99 and if you get on their email list they have a mag sale about once every three months. They are normally $19.99 then. Their current mag sale ends today at noon. http://www.cdnninvestments.com/glock.html If you want to purchase a Glock 17 barrel (or two) I have a guy that had them a week or so ago for $93. That's a Glock 17 FACTORY barrel. Lots of folks will tell you they don't shoot well in a Glock 22. I have found this to be untrue. But that is just my .02 OH, get it now. Stock up fast, because 'it's coming'... Attachment 78687 How many mags do YOU see? Hint - NOT 21 GO BIG OR GO HOME

TUMS | 09-08-2009 10:49 AM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. Blaaawwww Glock.. I'll pass.. Browning hi-power for me. I'll take one in .40 too please. For CCW i'd take either a Kahr or a S&W wheel gun. Sig P239 is a nice rig for CCW also.

Haltiat | 09-08-2009 11:09 AM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. It may be a bit much for a novice shooter's CCW but the .357 Sig is a nice round, no doubts about it. That said I prefer the 9x23 Winchester as a rimless successor to the venerable .357 Magnum. You'll get a few more rounds in the magazine and the same breach face will comfortably fit 9x23, 9x19 and 7.62x25. If some forward thinking gun manufacturer would build a double stack 7.62x25 with barrels to swap over to 9x23 and 9x19 you'd have one of the most versatile handguns imaginable. I don't really understand how you can shoot 9x19 through a .40 with just a barrel swap. I would think there would be too much slop on the breachface that would lead to feeding or ejection issues or maybe even a blown case head. How can the extractor claw positively engage a smaller case?

blueice | 09-08-2009 11:12 AM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoh (Post 1909369) You owe it to yourself to try out a couple of 1911's in .45, although they will be more expensive than either the Glock or XD. Kimber makes a couple of nice compacts and then there's my favorite...the Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail. http://static.cz-usa.com/czusa/produ...37x200_q85.png
Please, no mention of Kimber or Wesson as it brings me close to :censored:asm.....:ok:

wallew | 09-08-2009 11:50 AM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 1909930) I don't really understand how you can shoot 9x19 through a .40 with just a barrel swap. I would think there would be too much slop on the breachface that would lead to feeding or ejection issues or maybe even a blown case head. How can the extractor claw positively engage a smaller case?
H, Here ya go - link is to Glock Talk, where this subject was SPECIFICALLY addressed. Bottom of the first page even has pix... http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthre...k+17+barrel+22 Also, note that IF using a Glock 17 barrel in a Glock 22 bothers you, there are numerous companies that MAKE conversion barrels that ARE literally drop in. Glock World has Storm Lake barrels for $94 (plus s&h). http://www.glockworld.com/item/43152...rsion_std.aspx Or Lone Wolf Distributing will sell you a Factory new Glock 31 .357 Sig barrel for $151. Does not address the '9mm' at this link, but look on their site, they do sell the factory Glock 17 barrel for the same price. http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=555 Hope that helps. And while I would have LOVED to have found ANYONE willing to make a Glock style handgun with a double stack mag for the 7.62x25 - NO ONE and I mean NO ONE was willing to take on the task. All seem to think it's such a small niche market that they don't want to do the computer Cad work to make this happen. The same goes for ALL of the barrel makers I discussed this with. Understand that the 25 is a LONG round and literally won't fit any mags currently developed. So, aside from getting a new lower and a new barrel, you would need new mags. Again, way too much $$ and NO ONE would do it. Even if I paid several thousand for the prototype. Which to be honest, as much as I like the 25 round (a lot for sure), it's just not worth it when the .357 Sig is a comparable round and does pretty much the same things as the 25. And .357 Sig is becoming the round of choice for a lot of LE departs around the USA, so ammo IS available. I researched this one TO DEATH for over a year before finally just giving up. And I don't normally give up, but in this instance, no one was actually willing to work with me, so I finally did give it up.

Rebel Yarr | 09-08-2009 12:03 PM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. Why wouldn't you do the glock 20 - with the beefier build/slide and drop in a .40 barrel? I like the idea of having access to such a powerful round as the 10mm - but being able to shoot .40 for practice/plinking on the same platform. I assume that the 9mm mags wouldn't fit in the G 20's larger frame - so you wouldn't have 9mm, but would you really need it with .40 being pretty cheap. edit: I realize BI doesn't want a full sized pistol - Q is more for Wallew on his choice/reasoning.

Haltiat | 09-08-2009 12:45 PM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1910000) H, Here ya go - link is to Glock Talk, where this subject was SPECIFICALLY addressed. Bottom of the first page even has pix...
Crazy but I guess it works. From what I gather there isn't a problem with catastrophic failures but accuracy may be affected and you might encounter extraction issues that require installing some 9mm parts. That looks like some potentially useful survival trivia to know. I still wonder what the long term effects on the extractor claw would be since it seems that's really the only thing holding the 9mm cartridge in place at the breach end. Extractors are cheap and easy to replace either way. Quote:
And while I would have LOVED to have found ANYONE willing to make a Glock style handgun with a double stack mag for the 7.62x25 - NO ONE and I mean NO ONE was willing to take on the task. All seem to think it's such a small niche market that they don't want to do the computer Cad work to make this happen. The same goes for ALL of the barrel makers I discussed this with. Understand that the 25 is a LONG round and literally won't fit any mags currently developed. So, aside from getting a new lower and a new barrel, you would need new mags.
Yeah... because nobody would be interested in a powerful gun that fires cheap and widely available ammo at a time when ammo in general is scarce and expensive. :confused_ma: But you can be sure there's some genius or other out there gearing up to build yet another 1911 clone. I'll never figure these guys out. Another opportunity lost. Oh well, I can still dream. :4_8_4v: Quote:
Again, way too much $$ and NO ONE would do it. Even if I paid several thousand for the prototype. Which to be honest, as much as I like the 25 round (a lot for sure), it's just not worth it when the .357 Sig is a comparable round and does pretty much the same things as the 25. And .357 Sig is becoming the round of choice for a lot of LE departs around the USA, so ammo IS available. I researched this one TO DEATH for over a year before finally just giving up. And I don't normally give up, but in this instance, no one was actually willing to work with me, so I finally did give it up.
Yeah, I understand. I have a TT-33 that can convert from 9mm to 7.62x25. One of these days I'll get a spare barrel and ream it out for the 9x23 and I'll have a fairly compact and low profile multi-caliber that fires some interesting rounds. I have read of a few guys doing this. A Glock 20 in 9x25 Dillon would be interesting too.

wallew | 09-08-2009 04:50 PM
Re: The Runner Ups Are. 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel Yarr (Post 1910041) Why wouldn't you do the glock 20 - with the beefier build/slide and drop in a .40 barrel? I like the idea of having access to such a powerful round as the 10mm - but being able to shoot .40 for practice/plinking on the same platform. I assume that the 9mm mags wouldn't fit in the G 20's larger frame - so you wouldn't have 9mm, but would you really need it with .40 being pretty cheap. edit: I realize BI doesn't want a full sized pistol - Q is more for Wallew on his choice/reasoning.
RY, Glock makes TWO frame sizes. The 20/21 is the LARGE frame for the 10mm and the .45acp. Then the REST of the calibers fall into the regular sized frame. Yes, yes, I know, the 'baby' sized handguns. ARE BASICALLY either the large frame or the regular sized frame cut down to make it smaller. But the over all basic size for the frame/slide/barrel ARE THE SAME. The 9mm barrel is smaller than the .357/.40 cal barrels, so if you got a G17 barrel, IT WILL FIT. And it will function well. Go grab a large frame Glock. Then pick up the regular sized frame. At least for me, I just LIKED the way the G22 came up to point. Get a good grip on the handgun with the weapon at your side. Then with your eyes closed, bring up the handgun to what YOU FEEL is the correct spot for a shot. FOR ME, it just came right up to a proper sight picture. That was MY experience. Your milage may vary. If you look at the link I provided at post #23 the guy posts two pix. Here is the FIRST of the two pix. You will see that a G22 with a G17 barrel actually shoots as well as the G22. Just smaller holes. Bottom right of the target. Realize that when it locks up in battery, even with the G17 barrel, the accuracy is actually not effected. Attachment 78709

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:42 AM. |

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright = None use it and Link to GIM