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hypervel | 04-28-2009 02:45 PM
9mm pistol vs carbine ballistics http://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publication...aspx?ID=158684 I thought it was interesting. I'll trust Sanow for at least that much.

C&L 1911 | 04-28-2009 03:18 PM
Re: 9mm pistol vs carbine ballistics I don't know about 9mm replacing the 12ga - I think it's a stretch. Maybe in some applications... As far as 9mm carbine vs. 9mm pistol topic goes, while the difference in velocities is negligible between the two, carbine has one distinct advantage over a pistol - it has the stock and can be shouldered, which makes it easier to transition from target to target and with more accuracy. A compact size carbine with pistol size (or slightly longer) barrel would be a great setup for those applications. I guess that's why MP5s are so popular and widely used by LE in Europe and even some agencies in the States.

CrufflerJJ | 04-28-2009 03:19 PM
Re: 9mm pistol vs carbine ballistics Quote:
Originally Posted by hypervel (Post 1698380) http://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publication...aspx?ID=158684 I thought it was interesting. I'll trust Sanow for at least that much.
Interesting, but a bit hard to believe that there was such a small increase in velocity between pistol & carbine barrels. Oh well. I still distrust Marshall/Sanow.

C&L 1911 | 04-28-2009 03:27 PM
Re: 9mm pistol vs carbine ballistics Quote:
Originally Posted by CrufflerJJ (Post 1698446) Interesting, but a bit hard to believe that there was such a small increase in velocity between pistol & carbine barrels.
It shouldn't be. Pistol calibers are just that - they are designed for use in pistols, i.e. relatively short barrels. In some cases and with some calibers, shooting them out of a long(er) barrel actually results in lower muzzle velocities because of the drag (as the powder has burnt up, but the bullet is still in the barrel).

CrufflerJJ | 04-28-2009 04:42 PM
Re: 9mm pistol vs carbine ballistics Quote:
Originally Posted by C&L 1911 (Post 1698459) It shouldn't be. Pistol calibers are just that - they are designed for use in pistols, i.e. relatively short barrels. In some cases and with some calibers, shooting them out of a long(er) barrel actually results in lower muzzle velocities because of the drag (as the powder has burnt up, but the bullet is still in the barrel).
Yes, I know that some .22LR loads give higher velocities out of pistols versus 20+" rifle barrels. Wellllll.....I'll be the first to admit that my data is limited. A while back, I chrony'd some loads, comparing my Keltec P11 versus my MP5. I used a 124 grain 9mm jacketed bullet on top of 4.2 grains of Bullseye (a "fast" powder). Keltec P11 gave 980 feet per second, versus 1197 out of the MP5. I suspect the velocity difference might be even higher, had I used a slower powder.

C&L 1911 | 04-28-2009 04:53 PM
Re: 9mm pistol vs carbine ballistics Quote:
Originally Posted by CrufflerJJ (Post 1698598) Yes, I know that some .22LR loads give higher velocities out of pistols versus 20+" rifle barrels. Wellllll.....I'll be the first to admit that my data is limited. A while back, I chrony'd some loads, comparing my Keltec P11 versus my MP5. I used a 124 grain 9mm jacketed bullet on top of 4.2 grains of Bullseye (a "fast" powder). Keltec P11 gave 980 feet per second, versus 1197 out of the MP5. I suspect the velocity difference might be even higher, had I used a slower powder.
I think your findings are fairly accurate; my post above was more of a generalization stating that longer barrel doesn't always equate to higher velocity. But you're absolutely right in that there are many variables that would affect the results one way or another, with the powder type being the biggest one of them. Bullet weight, twist rate, humidity, altitude, etc. would also affect the results.

SilverCity | 04-28-2009 05:46 PM
Re: 9mm pistol vs carbine ballistics Some data I have compiled from various sources regarding carbine velocities: Ruger PC9 Ballistics: from www.grimjaw.net/ballistics.htm Rem Golden Saber 124gr +p jhp 1397 1406 1414 1389 1409 1397 1416 1416 1414 1384 avg 1404.2 s.dev 11.736 Speer Gold Dot 115gr jhp +p+ 1544 1643 1629 1653 1650 1641 1658 1652 1657 1620 avg 1634.7 s.dev 34.144 Winchester Ranger 127gr jhp +p+ 1368 1400 1413 1382 1392 1411 1389 1390 1370 1388 avg 1390.3 s.dev 15.004 Rem 115gr jhp +p+ 1577 1595 1568 1589 avg 1582.25 Fiocchi 115gr fmj 1307 1395 1344 1389 1381 1380 1340 1384 1373 1405 avg 1369.8 s.dev 30.151 Fed Premium Hydrashok 124gr jhp 1229 1307 1291 1319 1290 1308 1309 1287 1291 1299 avg 1293 s.dev 24.806 To calculate energy: E = W(eight in grains) * V(elocity in fps) * (V(elocity in fps)/450450). JA ************************************************** ******************************************** February 1st, 2007, 02:20 AM I have never shot any 40 carbines but I have chronographed 9mm and 45acp pistols/carbines. Both resulted in 150fps or less increase in velocity with factory loads in the carbines due to the fast burning rate powders used in factory ammo. Using the slowest medium buring rate powders I could find to make reloads resulted in a velocity increase of a maximum of 230fps. The limited case capacity and pressure limits of cartridges designed for semi auto pistols precludes the use of the slowest burning rate handgun powders that really show large increases in velocity in the longer barrels of carbines. Handloading 357 magnum cartridges really showed some amazing results due to being able to use the slowest burning rate handgun powders in the large volume of the 357 magnum cases. Depending on bullet weight the results were 400fps-800fps increases in velocity in a 18" barreled carbine versus a 6" barreled pistol. ************************************************** ******************************************* From GlockTalk: Joe Mamma Temperature: 40 degrees F Ammo Description /Product Code /avg. vel. with G-17 /avg. vel. with Kel-Tec Sub 2000 Federal Hydrashok 124gr +P+ JHP (P9HS3G1) /1167fps / 1321 fps Federal NATO, 124gr FMJ (M882) /1114fps / 1231 fps Winchester USA Brand ("White Box") Hollow Points 115gr JHP (USA9JHP) /1149fps / 1305 fps Winchester USA Brand ("White Box") Hollow Points 147gr JHP (USA9JHP2) /1020fps / 1117 fps CCI Blazer Brass 115 gr FMJ (5200) /1120fps / 1299 fps Sellier & Bellot 115 gr FMJ (80166-00902) /1162fps / 1296 fps Geco/Dynamit Nobel 124gr (23364-12585) /1129fps/ 1256 fps Magtech 147gr "FMC-FLAT" (891798-001347) /969fps / 1096 fps ************************************************** ******************************************* From GlockTalk: WinstonSmith A friend of mine in Kentucky just did some chrono measurements on the Keltec Sub2000 and a Kahr PM9 with a 3" barrel. All measurements at 15 ft from muzzle and at 64 degrees F. Here are the results: Win 147 gr JHP - Five shots through the SUB-2000: 1111 FPS 1139 FPS 1119 FPS 1136 FPS 1130 FPS 1139 FPS - High 1127 FPS - Average 1111 FPS - Low 28 Extreme Spread 11 Standard Deviation Win 147 gr JHP - Five shots through the Kahr PM9: 938 FPS 923 FPS 910 FPS 934 FPS 915 FPS 938 FPS - High 924 FPS - Average 910 FPS - Low 28 Extreme Spread 11 Standard Deviation Maybe there is some intermediate barrel length that would do even better but the 16" barrel is clearly faster than the Kahr PM9 or Glock 17.

zoot | 04-28-2009 06:04 PM
Re: 9mm pistol vs carbine ballistics Anyone have any information about the accuracy and range of the 9mm carbine? How effective would say a marlin 9mm camp rifle or similar ruger perform out 100-200 yards? Would a 9mm pistol and 9mm carbine using the same cartridge be an effective combination?

SilverCity | 04-28-2009 06:12 PM
Re: 9mm pistol vs carbine ballistics I remember reading years ago that the Germans considered the Schmeisser submachine gun with hot-loaded FMJ ammo capable of hits at 200 meters. I don't think I would use the 9mm that far however. With good ammo, maybe 50yds for the pistol and 100yds for the carbine, IMO.

CrufflerJJ | 04-28-2009 06:49 PM
Re: 9mm pistol vs carbine ballistics Quote:
Originally Posted by zoot (Post 1698755) Anyone have any information about the accuracy and range of the 9mm carbine? How effective would say a marlin 9mm camp rifle or similar ruger perform out 100-200 yards? Would a 9mm pistol and 9mm carbine using the same cartridge be an effective combination?
Accuracy-wise, I'd be inclined to go with 100 yards, max. Effectiveness, the shorter range, the better. Yes, I could probably hit you at 100 yards. Whether it would stop you or not, I dunno. I'd probably rather grab a L1A1 (FAL-style) rifle to solve things permanent-like.

TTAZZMAN | 04-28-2009 07:04 PM
Re: 9mm pistol vs carbine ballistics i personally think the max effective range of a 9mm for me would be 50yds with a carbine but i can certainly shoot very good groups (holes in paper) at 100yds ...over that...never tried it i always picked up a different gun its hard to beat a calico m-900 or m-950 for the purpose they are talking 100rd clips no recoil dead on accurate bottom shell ejection etc link with a video for the curious .....great to watch http://calicolightweaponsystems.com/....php?page=home

ruprick | 04-28-2009 07:13 PM
Re: 9mm pistol vs carbine ballistics I have the Kel Tec Sub 2000 carbine in 9mm. It has a 16" barrel. Mine is in a the Glock magazine model. It pretty much delivers pistol muzzle energy at 100 yards.....this is about true of all pistol calibre carbines. I went with the 9mm as it matches my Glocks....and i do not own a 40 S&W.....buy if I did have that pistol calibre - that has fantastic carbine performance. I'll see if I can snag the ballistics table off the Kel Tec website. Lets try this link - it is to a pdf that is the manual for the carbine - page 17 of 20 is the ballistics table. http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/images/do...ub2kmanual.pdf It is a really nice chart that shows 9mm carbine ballistics with data points comparing to various PISTOL POINT BLANK MUZZLE preformance . Perhaps some smart guy can pick that single page off the pdf and post it here.

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