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- - New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=402169)

SilverCity | 08-25-2009 08:51 PM
New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today 2 Attachment(s) I know y'all will want pictures and a range report, but for now, you will have to settle for a picture of someone else's conversion and a stock photo. Extra factory mags are NOT forthcoming anytime soon. However, standard AK-74 mags will lock-up just fine, but you will need a bullet guide for reliable feeding. The gas block and FSB are staked on...overall looks like the other Saiga models, cleanly fitted, straight sights, nicely done. Can't wait to shoot it. I don't want to convert mine yet, maybe later...will focus on trying different loads. Oh yeah, $349 from Peach State Guns... EDIT: Just got an email from Nathan Yow at Miss. Auto Arms that Surefire will be making Saiga 5.45 mags. Yippee.

bwelkk | 08-25-2009 09:36 PM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today A Saiga is not a tactical carbine until you switch out the handguards (they get outrageously hot very quickly)

gangsta99 | 08-25-2009 10:16 PM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today Very very jealous. Glad to see you got one that quickly. I am hoping to get one next month.

eat_beef | 08-25-2009 10:28 PM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today Any idea what the Legion conversions are going to cost? No mag interchangeability = no go for me. Nice looking stick nonetheless, I'm just too grumpy to start adding a partially new platform.

Heimdhal | 08-25-2009 10:35 PM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today Quote:
Originally Posted by bwelkk (Post 1886463) A Saiga is not a tactical carbine until you switch out the handguards (they get outrageously hot very quickly)
I've never owned a saiga, but if thats true then you are 100% right. Heat is a killer of accuracy.

SilverCity | 08-25-2009 10:36 PM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 1886570) Any idea what the Legion conversions are going to cost? No mag interchangeability = no go for me. Nice looking stick nonetheless, I'm just too grumpy to start adding a partially new platform.
I think I saw the converted Legions in the $1000+ range...or was it $1200? Anyway, the Lancasters are always an option at $659. Also, Red Jacket will be converting some Saigas for Atlantic Firearms. Should see them on their website in a few weeks...haven't heard any prices. BTW, I think they ALL will take standard 74 mags.

FreeMyLand | 08-25-2009 10:36 PM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today Very nice - congrats. I think $349 is a steal for a quality rifle like a Saiga. I haven't looked at prices on them lately and would have thought they would have been much higher. Nice choice in caliber as well (I cringe every time I see deals on 5.45 that I can't take advantage of). Now is the time to load up on many, many, many cases at prices like $159.99 for 1080 rounds. I'm paying twice that for 5.56!! Even a PM sale for ammo, in this case, would be justified - because I don't think ammo will remain at such low prices forever....

Julian | 08-25-2009 10:43 PM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 1886570) No mag interchangeability = no go for me.
If it's anything like the SGL20, $950-$1K, I would imagine... if you can drill and tap a hole, you can use AK-74 surplus magazines. It's really not much work to convert your own rifle, anyway... I'm not particularly sold on the 5.45 cartridge, however. It's got the liabilities of the 5.56x45(small diameter, low mass), but without the benefits(spectacular wounding capabilities). The only thing that it really has going for it, is cheap ammo, but that can change at any time.

Heimdhal | 08-25-2009 10:46 PM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian (Post 1886601) If it's anything like the SGL20, $950-$1K, I would imagine... if you can drill and tap a hole, you can use AK-74 surplus magazines. It's really not much work to convert your own rifle, anyway... I'm not particularly sold on the 5.45 cartridge, however. It's got the liabilities of the 5.56x45(small diameter, low mass), but without the benefits(spectacular wounding capabilities). The only thing that it really has going for it, is cheap ammo, but that can change at any time.
I've heard different. That the 5.45 tends to have better wounding capabilities because it is less dependant on velocity to fragment the bullet and tumbles better in the target. This is just what I've heard from various sources though, I've never tested it myself.

Julian | 08-26-2009 12:31 AM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimdhal (Post 1886608) I've heard different. That the 5.45 tends to have better wounding capabilities because it is less dependant on velocity to fragment the bullet and tumbles better in the target. This is just what I've heard from various sources though, I've never tested it myself.
5.45 tumbles like crazy, and can take a meandering path through the body because of that, but does not generally fragment. I think a US manufacturer(Hornady?) makes a fragmenting round, but it is not as cheap or available. I kind of feel like a broken record lately, but softpoint rifle ammo will f**k you up, regardless of caliber. If I was using an AK-74 as a defensive weapon, that would be my choice of ammo. I believe Barnaul makes a soft point round in their Silver Bear line.

CQC McDuck | 08-26-2009 12:59 AM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today I want one of these 5.45 Saigas too! Great purchase man. :)

eat_beef | 08-26-2009 09:22 AM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today Julian is right, it doesn't fragment, it tumbles. But he is wrong in wanting fragmentation over tumbling. Tumbling produces a bigger wound channel and penetrates better. 7n6 makes a glorious mess. And Heimdahl, there is no need to worry about ammo availability in the future if you buy enough now.:wink: BTW, I didn't mention that 5.45 milsurp is corrosive, which is a pain, but buy some ballistol and you're cool.

silverwine | 08-26-2009 09:28 AM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 1886570) No mag interchangeability = no go for me. .
The Arsenal Saiga Manual states otherwise: http://www.arsenalinc.com/downloads/sgl20/SGL20v04.pdf "The components and features on the new SGL20 rifle resemble true Russian AK rifle, including the safety lever with correct shape and properly positioned dimple, the correct trigger guard with magazine catch and the correct bullet guide enabling SGL20 to accept any standard AK magazine, the 1000 meter rear sight left, the highest quality Arsenal, Inc."

Heimdhal | 08-26-2009 09:34 AM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today I've been thinking of doing an AR build based around the 5.45, but maybe Ill just grab one of these saigas if they can use the old surplus mags.

Julian | 08-26-2009 09:36 AM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today Well eat_beef, having never been in battle myself, I'm not really quallified to speculate, but Martin Facjler would disagree. Looking at wound chanels in ballistics gel and live(at the time) pigs, 5.56 produces much more grevious wounds than 5.45. The tumbling produces a large temporary cavity, but a fairly small permanent cavity. The 5.56(with sufficient velocity), produces explosive results. Don't take this to mean I'm a 5.56 fanboy, my MBR is a .308, but I think 5.56 is a better defensive round than 5.45. Possibly the best of both worlds: http://www.brassfetcher.com/110%20grain%20Sierra%20Varminter.html Quote:
Bullet nearly severed block into four pieces and exhibited very low recoil for a .308WIN cartridge, despite flattening-out of the primer (maximum load for the test rifle).

tulsamal | 08-26-2009 11:31 AM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today Quote:
I'm not particularly sold on the 5.45 cartridge, however. It's got the liabilities of the 5.56x45(small diameter, low mass), but without the benefits(spectacular wounding capabilities).
I've shot critters around my property with M193 out of an M4 and surplus Soviet 5.45 out of my SAR-2. I have been astounding to see the reaction of things hit by the Soviet round. "Out of proportion to the cartridge size" is the only thing I can say. I had some very large dead snapping turtles along the mud bank of my pond. I went out there with the SAR-2 to break them into pieces. Good practice and they were starting to stink. Every shot resulted in large pieces of turtle being hurled into the air. It was shoot and duck. I was laughing by the end. How the commercial stuff works is an unknown for me but the military stuff is nasty. At least as good as M193. (Which I've killed deer with in special situations and it worked great. I shot one deer in the head and pieces of the skull literally disappeared. It was gory!) Gregg

Heimdhal | 08-26-2009 11:41 AM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today has any one tried(or own) the 5.45 on an AR platform? I can imagine with the peep sights and better ergonomics it would be a pretty deadly set up.

SilverCity | 08-26-2009 12:02 PM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today There must be a reason the Russians still chamber it... The round has evolved...I would sure like to try some of the new stuff: Wiki: As body armor saw increasing use in Western militaries, bullet construction was changed several times to compensate. In 1987 a steel rod in the original 7N6 bullets was hardened to 60 HRC. In 1992 the size of the steel penetrator was increased and the lead plug in front of it discarded. This bullet was designated 7N10 "improved penetration". In 1994 the 7N10 design was improved by filling the air space with lead. Upon impacting a hard target, soft lead is pressed sideways by the steel penetrator, its hydrostatic pressure tearing the jacket. The 7N22 armour-piercing bullet, introduced in 1998, has a sharp-pointed steel penetrator and retaining the soft lead plug in the nose for jacket discarding. [4] The recent 7N24 "super-armor-piercing" bullet has a penetrator made of tungsten carbide.

Heimdhal | 08-26-2009 12:30 PM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 1887404) There must be a reason the Russians still chamber it... The round has evolved...I would sure like to try some of the new stuff: Wiki: As body armor saw increasing use in Western militaries, bullet construction was changed several times to compensate. In 1987 a steel rod in the original 7N6 bullets was hardened to 60 HRC. In 1992 the size of the steel penetrator was increased and the lead plug in front of it discarded. This bullet was designated 7N10 "improved penetration". In 1994 the 7N10 design was improved by filling the air space with lead. Upon impacting a hard target, soft lead is pressed sideways by the steel penetrator, its hydrostatic pressure tearing the jacket. The 7N22 armour-piercing bullet, introduced in 1998, has a sharp-pointed steel penetrator and retaining the soft lead plug in the nose for jacket discarding. [4] The recent 7N24 "super-armor-piercing" bullet has a penetrator made of tungsten carbide.
I cant imagine that a tungsten-carbide cored bullet is cheap or super easy to come by for civilian use, but jesus that thing must be brutal!

eat_beef | 08-26-2009 01:44 PM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today I have two Smith 5.45s uppers and I love them. Super accurate and dead on reliable so far, though I haven't shot them much. Julian, I've read that study. I haven't been on a battlefield either, but I've shot a lot of stuff over the years, and the 5.45 milsurp (NOT Wolf, et. al.) is devastating, period. That said, I'm a 7.62MM M14 man.:biggrin:

Heimdhal | 08-26-2009 01:52 PM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 1887594) I have two Smith 5.45s uppers and I love them. Super accurate and dead on reliable so far, though I haven't shot them much. Julian, I've read that study. I haven't been on a battlefield either, but I've shot a lot of stuff over the years, and the 5.45 milsurp (NOT Wolf, et. al.) is devastating, period. That said, I'm a 7.62MM M14 man.:biggrin:
Ive been thinking of doing an AR build and the 5.45 was one of the main rounds I was considering for it. 5.56 isnt my favorite round, but Im not 100% against it either. The 5.45 has always piqued my interest. My favorite battle round has to be the .308 by far, but I cant afford a .308 platform ::bawling:

eat_beef | 08-26-2009 06:35 PM
Re: New Saiga 5.45 Came Home Today I'd say go for it. I'd recommend a complete S&W rifle as the rifle is cheaper than buying an upper and a lower unless you get a smoking deal. I bought uppers as I already had a pile of lowers. Some cat was selling complet rifles for 850 on Gunbroker a while back. I had a Model 1 Sales upper, but sold it unfired. The new owner had a few problems. He fixed them relatively cheap/easy, but still. For the extra money you get not only better QC, but a chrome lined bore. I don't have any experience with the Olympic uppers/rifles, but they don't have the best rep either.

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