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Twisted Avatar | 10-13-2008 07:51 PM
Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles I Sent email off to Mr Rawels asking if he had any objection to cutting and pasting articles in the format I do his response: Absolutely! I appreciate it! ~Jim Rawles~ Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles In my survivalist novel "Patriots", I included lots of descriptions of firearms used in various situations in order to illustrate that there is no single "perfect survival gun." Different situations are best handled by using different firearms. There are several requirements that must be considered in selecting guns for use on a farm, ranch, or survival retreat. First, and foremost, they must be versatile. A single gun might be pressed into service for shooting crows or starlings at 10 yards, rabbits or coyotes at 100 yards, or rattlesnakes at five feet. While there is no single gun that can handle any task, it is important to select guns with at least some degree of versatility. Further, it is not realistic to believe that you can get by with just one gun, or even just one rifle, one pistol, and one shotgun. Versatility has its limits. Like a carpenter's box of tools, each type of gun has its special place and purpose. The second major consideration for survival guns is that they be robust and reliable enough to put up with constant carry and regular use. Good designs not prone to mechanical failures are a plus. When an infrequent repair must be made, a small stock of spare parts that do not require special gunsmithing to install must suffice. When the nearest gunsmith is a two hour drive away, you have to depend on your own resources. And needless to say, who knows which replacement parts will be available when things get Schumeresque? Since they are carried quite frequently and in all sorts of weather, farm/ranch/survival guns need to have durable finishes. Stainless steel is by far the best choice for most situations. Unfortunately, however, not all guns are available in stainless steel. For guns that only made with a blued finish, there are several alternative finishes available. These include Parkerizing (the military standard gray or black phosphate finish commonly seen on M16 and AR-15 rifles), and various other factory finishes with trade names such as "Coltalloy" or "Armour Alloy." In addition to gun factory finishes, a wide range of exotic materials such as Teflon and Zylan are now frequently used as "after-market" gun finishes. The Robar Company uses a nickel/Teflon composite. My personal favorite of the exotic finishes is called METACOL (METAl COLor), which is offered in a wide variety of colors by Arizona Response Systems (http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com) Exotic material finishes offer rust protection that is exceeded only by stainless steel and are quite durable. For those that dislike the highly reflective surface of stainless steel, it too can be coated with one of the exotic materials such as green Teflon with a matte texture. Because trips to town to procure ammunition might be infrequent (or impossible in a severe survival scenario), and reloading will likely be the norm for those seeking self-sufficiency, it is desirable to limit the number of different cartridges that you stock. Having ten different guns chambered in ten different cartridges would only serve to complicate logistics. Further, it is best to select only guns chambered for commonly-available cartridges. Small country stores stock ammo like .22 Long Rifle, .308 Winchester, .30-'06, or 12 gauge, but probably not .264 Winchester magnum, .300 Weatherby, or 28 gauge. Small Game There are several categories of firearms that belong in the gun racks of nearly every farm or ranch. The first, and most frequently used variety are small game/pest shooting guns. These guns are used to hunt small game for the pot (squirrels, rabbits, etc.), to shoot garden pests (crows, starlings, gophers, etc.), and marauding predators (coyotes, foxes, weasels, ferrets, etc.) They also end up being the guns most frequently used to slaughter livestock. Good cartridges for small game/pest shooting include .22 Long Rifle (.22 LR), and .223 Remington. The most common shotshells for this use are .410, 20 gauge, and 12 gauge. The .22 LR will suffice for everything up to the size of rabbits at conservative distances. It is inexpensive to shoot, quiet, and has hardly any felt recoil. The .223 Remington (virtually identical to and in most cases interchangeable with the 5.56mm NATO cartridge used by the military) is a good cartridge for shooting perched birds that would be out of range for a .22 rimfire, or for shooting feral dogs, feral cats, or coyotes. Experience has shown that both handguns and long guns are needed for small game/pest shooting. A long gun would of course be the ideal choice in most circumstances, due to their inherently higher velocity and longer sighting radius (and hence greater accuracy). There are times, however, when it is not practical to carry a long gun. When mending fences, feeding livestock, hauling wood, riding a tractor, or doing most gardening work, it is usually not practical to carry a long gun. On farms and ranches, long guns tend to be left behind inside buildings, or in vehicle gun racks. They are only rarely carried when doing chores or just walking down to the mailbox at the county road. This is where handguns come in. Rimfire Handguns A good quality .22 rimfire pistol may be one of the most useful handguns in your battery. They are used for dispatching those "uncatchable" chickens for the stew pot, for shooting small game/pests, and for inexpensively maintaining marksmanship skills for those more powerful (and more expensive to shoot) handguns. My wife and I use a stainless steel Ruger Mark II with a 5-1/2-inch bull barrel and Pachmayr grips. The Ruger is also offered in 6-7/8-inch and 10-5/8-inch barrel lengths. But we find that the 5-1/2-inch barrel is a handy length for holster carry. Another well-made stainless steel .22 autopistol is the Smith and Wesson Model 622. It is available with a 4-1/2 inch or 6-inch barrel. If you prefer a revolver, the stainless steel Smith and Wesson Model 617 is a good option. It is available in a 4-inch, 6-inch, or 8-3/8-inch barrel length. Rifles chambered in .22 LR are often used guns on farms and ranches. They are useful for pest shooting, small game hunting, and target practice. Reliable, American-made semi-auto .22s include the Ruger Model 10/.22 (also available in stainless), the Marlin 70-P "Papoose", the Remington Speedmaster Model 552, and the discontinued Remington Nylon 66. If a bolt action is your preference, either the Kimber Model 82 or the Ruger 77/.22 are good choices. Two good quality lever action .22s are the Marlin 39TDS and the Winchester 9422. Regardless of which brand of .22 rifle you buy, you should consider mounting it with a telescopic sight. Because of its low energy, proper placement of a .22 rimfire bullet can mean the difference between crippling and cleanly killing small game. Mounting a scope will in most instances give you the ability to not just hit an animal's center of mass, but rather hit a precise aiming point, such as its head or neck. If you do decide to mount a scope, use a full size (1-inch diameter) scope rather than one the inexpensive 3/4-inch diameter scopes made specifically for air rifles and .22s. Inexpensive scopes generally have a poor field of view, considerable parallax distortion, and are not as ruggedly made as the full-size rifle scopes. For training youngsters, I recommend the diminutive Chipmunk .22 LR single shot bolt action, with a 16" barrel. Centerfire Handguns If you are seeking a particularly versatile handgun, you might consider the Thompson/Center T/C Contender. This single shot pistol uses readily-changeable barrels in a wide range of chamberings. The Contender is available in both blued and stainless steel. It was also formerly offered in a proprietary alloy finish called "Armour Alloy II". Some of the most useful of the 20-plus chamberings are .22 LR, .223 Remington, and the .45 Colt/.410 shotgun barrel. The handguns in our battery that we traditionally carried the most was our pair of Smith and Wesson Model 686 .357 magnum revolvers. Both were black Teflon coated (a short-lived S&W factory variant dubbed "Midnight Black"), with 6-inch barrels and equipped with Pachmayr Signature grips, and red ramp/white outline adjustable sights. The six inch barrel length is a compromise between ease of carry and accuracy/velocity. While an 8-3/8-inch barrel would provide better accuracy and velocity, without using a shoulder holster, a gun with this barrel length is not comfortable to carry. We typically carried those revolvers in inexpensive black nylon Michaels of Oregon ("Uncle Mike's" brand) black nylon hip holster rigs, each with pouches for four spare Safariland speed loaders. Our habit was to have two speed loaders loaded with .357 magnum 125-grain half-jacketed hollow points, one with CCI #9 birdshot "snake" loads, and one with .38 Special tracers (for shooting in low-light conditions). These revolvers accounted for numerous snakes, rabbits, and even a couple of coyotes, not because they were the best guns for the job, but rather because they were the guns we habitually carried and thus they were available when needed. These guns also pack a punch, so they allayed our fears of dangerous predators, whether of the two-legged or four-legged variety. In addition to the Smith and Wesson, good quality stainless steel double action .357 revolvers are made by Colt (the King Cobra and Python) and Ruger (the GP-100). We now carry Colt Stainless Steel Gold Cup (Model 1911 pattern) .45 ACPs with Pachmayr grips, extended slide releases, and Trijicon tritium-lit sights. One thing that we missed about the .357s was their ability to fire bird shot cartridges, but Remington makes a .45 shot cartridge that functions fairly well in a .45 auto. When we moved to bear country, we sold off the 686s and standardized with the .45 automatics. We wanted to be able to put a lot of rounds into a bear in a hurry, and .45 autos are far faster to reload than revolvers--at least under stress, in our experience. Granted, the chances of surviving a bear attack are slim, but we feel that we have a better chance with the Gold Cups. At least when they find all the ejected brass around our mangled corpses, they can say that we put up a good fight. ;-) Speaking of bears, for homesteaders living in brown bear or grizzly bear country, a more powerful handgun than even the .45 ACP is often recommended. A stainless steel Smith and Wesson Model 629 (6-inch) .44 magnum, or Ruger Redhawk (5-1/2-inch) .44 magnum, or perhaps the Colt Anaconda (6-inch) .44 magnum would be good choices. If you would rather carry an automatic, the LAR Grizzly (.45 Automatic magnum), Wildey (.45 Automatic magnum), Desert Eagle (.44 magnum), or the long discontinued Auto Mag (.44 Auto Mag) would also serve the same purpose, although all of these guns are relatively expensive and heavy to to carry. Rifles A lightweight rifle chambered in .223 Remington is particularly useful for shooting both perched birds and predators. Remington, Ruger, and Sako all make good quality .223 bolt actions. Selecting one is largely a matter of personal preference. We use our .223s on coyotes, which currently abound in great numbers in the Western U.S., and are a constant source of trouble in our area. They have a penchant for devouring ducks, chickens, pet cats, and newborn lambs. We use three different guns on the uncommon occasions when we have a chance to snipe at coyotes. These guns include a Remington Model 7 bolt action chambered in .223 Remington, a Colt CAR-15 "M4gery", and a scoped L1A1 semi-auto chambered in .308 Winchester (virtually identical to and in most cases interchangeable with the 7.62 mm NATO cartridge used by the military). a .308 bolt action is used when we spot a coyote at beyond 300 yards. With the Remington Model 7 available, the CAR-15 is largely superfluous. But we like its easy handling, and the fact that we can get off a quick second shot when shooting at running rabbits or coyotes. Combination Guns The next category of guns are combination or "garden guns." These range from expensive imported rifle/shotguns to inexpensive combination guns made domestically. The European three barrel combination guns or "dreilings" (often anglicized to "drillings") can easily cost $2,000 or more. Guns typical of this breed are the Colt/Sauer drillings, Krieghoff drillings, and the Valmet over/unders. They typically feature a high-power rifle barrel mounted beneath side-by-side 12 gauge shotgun barrels. Domestically produced two-barrel combination guns, while not as aesthetically pleasing. cost far less than European drillings. These guns offer the ability to fire a single shotgun shell or rifle cartridge, with the flick of a switch. They are by far the best gun to have at hand when out doing garden work. They give you the versatility to eliminate a pesky gopher or marauding birds, whether they are perching or in flight. One of the best of the inexpensive combination guns now on the market is the Savage Model 24F with a Rynite fiberglass stock. This gun is currently available in .223 Remington over 12 gauge, or .223 Remington over 20 gauge. Screw-in choke tubes for the shotgun barrels are now standard. Both models are also available with traditional wood stocks. In the past, Savage Model 24-series guns were made in a wide range of chamberings such as .22 LR over .410, .22 LR over 20 gauge, .22 Magnum over .410 gauge, and .357 magnum over 20 gauge. All of these now-discontinued guns featured wooden stocks. They can often be found used at gun shows or in gun shops at modest prices. Due to their versatility, they are well worth looking for. Because most of the Savage 24-series guns come with a blued finish, it is recommended that they be upgraded with a more durable finish such as Teflon or Parkerizing. Long Range Rifles Big game hunting/counter-sniping rifles are the next group of guns to be considered. The selection of a big game rifle depends on the variety of game to be hunted. In the lower 48 states, a bolt action rifle chambered in .308 Winchester or .30-'06 will normally handle most big game. Regional differences will determine exactly what you need. For example, in the plains and desert states, you might need a scoped rifled chambered in a flat-shooting cartridge such as .270 Winchester or .25-'06. No matter which chambering you select, it is important that you buy a well-made rifle with a robust action. Remington, Ruger, and Winchester among others all make guns with these qualities. After you buy the rifle itself, you will probably want to have a more durable finish applied to its metal surfaces. You might also want to mount a telescopic sight if you will be hunting in open country. If you'll be hunting in brushy or densely-wooded terrain, you could find a scope is more of a hindrance than a help. It is important to note that scopes are more prone to failure than any other part of a rifle. Therefore, it is wise to select a rifle with good quality iron sights, whether or not you intend to mount a scope. If and when a scope should fail, you will have the recourse of removing the scope and reverting to iron sights. The need for a cartridge more powerful than .30-'06 is normally a consideration only in Alaska or parts of Canada where moose and grizzly bear are found. Several powerful cartridges are currently popular. These include the .35 Whelen, the .338 Winchester, and the .375 H & H Magnum. For our type of big-game hunting (normally deer, but nothing bigger than elk), my wife and I selected a pair of Winchester Model 70s. One is chambered in .308 Winchester, and the other in .30-06. The .30-06 is in a H-S Precision Kevlar-Graphite stock with integral aluminum bedding block. The .308 is in a Brown Precision green fiberglass stock, and was converted by MCS to take standard detachable M14 magazines. (Which are available in 5, 10, and 20 round capacity) This gives it interchangeability with magazines for M1As. They were both given a green Teflon finish and topped with Trijicon 4-power matte finish scopes. Because either rifle might also be used tactically, we had their muzzles threaded for flash hiders (1/2" x 28 thread--the same as that used on the M16) by Holland's of Oregon, and had Holland slim line muzzle brakes installed. We decided to get the muzzle brakes because they don't draw as much attention (in these politically correct days) as a flash hider. However, if we get into some deep drama, we can quickly switch to flash hiders. Shotguns The next gun categories to consider are upland game and waterfowl shotguns. If you will have the opportunity to hunt upland game or waterfowl on your property or somewhere nearby, you will of course want to include one or more good bird-hunting shotguns in your battery. As you will likely be carrying your shotgun more often than the average city dweller, a durable finish is desirable. Remington's "Special Purpose" versions of their Model 870, Model 11-87, and Model 1100 fit this bill nicely. They come from the factory with a non-glare stock finish and a dull gray Parkerized finish on all their surfaces. Several makers produce (or produced) Parkerized-finish pumps and autos comparable to the Remington Special Purpose series. One such is the Winchester Model 1300 Waterfowler. Like most other currently produced domestic shotguns, the Remington Special Purpose guns come with screw-in choke tubes as standard equipment. A 26-inch barrel length is best suited to upland game hunting, while a 28-inch or 30-inch barrel is normally recommended for pass shooting at ducks and geese. Because odd gauge shells might be difficult to obtain in rural areas or regardless of where you live in times of turmoil , it is best to buy either a 12 or 20 gauge shotgun. Also, given the trend towards steel shot, a 3-inch length chamber is recommended. The longer chamber allows the use of magnum loads, which are needed to give the less dense steel shot the same killing power as traditional lead shot loadings. In addition, screw-in choke tubes are advisable. As steel shot wears out chokes quickly, replaceable choke tubes can greatly increase the usable life of a gun. Because my wife is of small stature, (5' 2", 100 pounds) she prefers to do her bird hunting with a 20 gauge shotgun. She uses a Remington Model 1100 "Youth" model. Winchester makes a similar small-dimension variant of their Model 870. Because screw-in choke tubes were not available at the time that this gun was purchased, it was retrofitted with a Poly-choke adjustable choke. To make the gun less vulnerable to the ravages of wet weather, it will soon be shipped off to be black Teflon coated. With an extension magazine and a spare short (20") barrel, our birdguns can double as self-defense guns. One gun that deserves special mention is the .410 gauge "Snake Charmer II" single shot shotgun, made by Sport Arms, Mfg. This lightweight little gun just barely meets the Federal size minimums (18-inch barrel and 28-1/2 inches overall length). It is constructed of stainless steel and has a synthetic stock with a compartment that holds spare shotshells. Because it is compact and lightweight, our Snake Charmer gets taken along on walks where heavier, bulkier long guns would usually be left behind. This gun has been used to kill several rattlesnakes and a good number of quail. Retreat Defense Self-defense guns are the final category to be considered for farms, ranches, and survival retreats. Just as homesteaders in the 19th century had to depend on themselves for the protection of their lives and property, many modern homesteaders are finding that they must do likewise. Post-TEOTWAWKI, we all may be "on our own"--with no law enforcement to call on. (Or any way to call them, even if they are still available.) Even in the present day, rural farms and ranches are often a long driving distance from the nearest sheriff's office. Even in relatively peaceful times, a lot can happen before help arrives, so it makes sense to be prepared. If you expect bad economic times or other sources of social unrest, you should make a concerted to stock up on defensive guns, plenty of ammunition, lots of spare magazines, and a good selection of spare parts. Again, the assumption that law enforcement officials will be able to assist you also depends on being able to contact them. Encounters with poachers, escaped convicts or other assorted riff-raff might not necessarily take place in the immediate vicinity of your home or vehicle where you would presumably have access to a telephone or CB radio. If you are walking a fence line at the far end of an 80-acre parcel and run into trouble, the only law enforcement assistance available might be the handgun on your hip. Be prepared. At our farm, we have a variety of guns whose main job is defense, but that are also used for other purposes. As previously noted, our L1A1s double as a long-range coyote eliminators. Our large frame handguns are primarily self-defense guns, but also usable for hunting and shooting pests. As I noted previously, we have begun carrying .45 automatics instead of .357s. If you like the ballistics of the .45 ACP but prefer the action of a revolver, you might consider purchasing a Smith and Wesson Model 625 revolver. This is a stainless steel revolver built on the "N" frame--the same heavy frame used for the Smith and Wesson .44 magnums. The Model 625 uses "full moon" spring steel clips to hold six rounds of .45 ACP. Unlike most speed loaders, with the full moon clips, there is no knob to twist, or any mechanism that could potentially fail. You just drop the whole works into the cylinder. This makes them just as fast, if not faster, than any speed-loader. The Model 625 is offered in 3-inch, 4-inch, and 5-inch barrel lengths--the latter one of which is just about ideal. Because the .45 ACP has the same bore diameter as the .45 Colt cartridge, a spare cylinder and crane assembly can be fabricated for this more potent cartridge. This combination would make a particularly versatile handgun. One shop that specializes in this work is Miniature Machine Co. of Forth Worth, Texas. (See: Gunsmithing Service and Parts Providers, below) Shotguns are also well-suited to defensive work. A spare short "riotgun" barrel for a pump or automatic shotgun can make it double as a formidable home defense weapon. For our Remington 870 12 gauge, for example, we have a 20-inch length barrel that is equipped with rifle (slug) sights, and the choke tube that we keep in it is cylinder bore (no choke). It is ideal for shooting rifled slugs or buckshot. With the short barrel and a Choate eight-round extension magazine, the Remington 870 is a particularly handy gun to use at night for shooting feral dogs and cats or other animals that are attracted to our barn full of rabbits and chickens. It is also a reassuring gun to have around for home defense. The short riotgun barrel stays on our Remington most of each year, while the long "bird" barrels are normally mounted only during the quail and pheasant seasons. The "Battery " Just how many guns will you need? If you are on a budget, you might get by with a good quality bolt action rifle chambered in .308 or .30-06, a 12-gauge pump shotgun with a spare riotgun barrel, a .22 LR rifle, and a .45 automatic pistol. However, in order to have the versatility required for the many shooting tasks at most farms and ranches you will likely need at least twice this many guns. For a more complete discussion of guns suitable to a self-sufficient and self-reliant lifestyle, the late Mel Tappan's book Survival Guns (The Janus Press, Rogue River, Oregon) is generally recognized as the best general reference in print. And for a more complete discussion of guns suitable for self-defense, I highly recommend the book Boston's Gun Bible. A battery of guns for use at your farm or ranch should be considered a necessity, just like buying a Hi-Lift jack or a chain saw. Purchases should be made systematically and dispassionately. Like buying any other tool, you shouldn't skimp on quality. A well-made gun can deliver years or even generations of reliable service. One final note: You can buy the best guns in the world, but unless you practice with them often, you are not prepared. Getting training at a firearms school like Front Sight is money well spent! Gunsmithing Service and Parts Providers: The following is a partial listing of suppliers and services. Many gunsmiths offer Parkerizing. You might be able to locate a local shop to provide this service, and thus eliminate the expense and delay of shipping a gun via common carrier. METACOL Finishes: Arizona Response Systems (T. Mark Graham) 16014 West Remuda Drive Surprise, AZ 85387 phone 623-556-8056 (by appointment only!) http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com Nickel/Teflon ("NP3") Coating: The Robar Companies Inc. 21438 7th Ave., Suite B Phoenix, Ariz. 85027 (602) 581-2648/2962 http://www.robarguns.com/DesktopDefault.aspx .45 Colt cylinders for .45 ACP S&W Revolvers: Miniature Machine Co. 606 Grace Avenue Ft. Worth, Texas 76111 Kevlar-Graphite Stocks: H-S Precision, Inc. 1301 Turbine Drive Rapid City, South Dakota 57701 (605) 341-3006 http://www.hsprecision.com/ Winchester and Remington Bolt action rifle detachable M14 magazine conversions: Moe's Competitor Supplies 34 Delmar Drive Brookfield, Conn. 06804 (203) 775-1013 Copyright 2005, 2006, 2007. All Rights Reserved by James Wesley, Rawles - www.SurvivalBlog.com™

Toxa | 10-13-2008 08:21 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Good info, thanks TA

RiverRat | 10-13-2008 08:45 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles :553: I have to disagree with his choice of center fire rifle calibers IF ammo becomes scarce. He's right about country stores and hardware stores carrying .30-06 center fire ammo,it's about as common as dirt and the good old American classic. Not so with.308 and .223...although common as a domestic and semi military type round... you'll find .243 and .270 much more easily. The most common center fire round you are going to find in a small town out in the boondocks is .30-.30 hands down. Maybe not the best choice for medium to large game,but again,it's as common as dirt,and plentiful like the .30-.06. Either way...buy lot's of spare ammo and eliminate the possibility of running out right up front. :yes::yes::yes:

Twisted Avatar | 10-13-2008 08:55 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles I agree RR buy as much as you can......... you want be loading up on that stuff right until the delivery lines breakdown.

RiverRat | 10-13-2008 11:26 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles :wink: Ammo I got,and plenty of reloading supplies. Not trying to split hairs here...but,the reliability of any firearm under extreme abuse is very important in war or survival situations. Dirt,sand,water,etc can wreak havoc on automatic weapons very quickly...a jam or misfire when your life depends on it or a lost opportunity to put meat on the table will not cut it. Bolt actions and revolvers rule this category because of sheer simplicity,what you lose in firepower you gain in reliability. I keep a couple .22's and .357 revolvers in reserve should my automatic pistols fail. A half dozen Russian Mosin Nagant (7.62x54)bolt action carbines(M38-M44) round out my centerfire collection along with a couple .22 bolt actions. Shotguns ? I prefer single shot 12's and pumps. Over the years,every automatic shotgun I have owned had reliability problems at one time or another.I avoid all of them like the plague. Don't get me wrong or construe this as a slam against automatic firearms in general...I love them all,with the exception of automatic shotguns. I definitely love my AK's,Walthers,Berettas,etc.,but always have a back up firearm that can function without maintenance and take tons of abuse. A weapon that jams or doesn't work when you need it the most might as well be a fancy wooden club. Be prepared...stuff breaks. :yes::yes::yes:

____hoot____ | 10-14-2008 01:08 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Stuff Breaks~~~~~~~~ever try to move a frozen Mossberg 500 top safety at -20 below? So much for "space age" plastics. Have heard this gun pushed and pumped and pushed and pumped on the public as a "survival weapon" and never ever that part of the design mentioned.

farscott | 10-14-2008 07:43 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
We now carry Colt Stainless Steel Gold Cup (Model 1911 pattern) .45 ACPs with Pachmayr grips, extended slide releases, and Trijicon tritium-lit sights.
There is some good info in there, but there is some junk. The quoted sentence is bad advice. First, the Gold Cup is a target pistol with fragile rear sights known for coming undone. The Colt Elliason rear sight has no place on a survival gun as it is famous for losing its roll pin. The value of a gun with that sight is zero, zlich, none, nada. It is junk. A BoMar rear is a much better choice if one must have adjustable sights. Unfortunately BoMar is no more as the owner has passed. Fixed sights are much more durable but the Gold Cup slide needs to be welded to accommodate fixed sights. Bad starting point. For a 1911, just buy a Springfield Armory gun. Best bang for the value. I like to use them as the basis for my 1911s as the steel is good and they are built fairly well. I usually toss all of the parts other than the frame and slide, but I have made do with a stock SA. If you have to have a Colt, buy anything but a Gold Cup and toss everything but the frame, slide, and barrel. Second, the Gold Cups ship from Colt with recoil springs set up for target loads. Even the new pistols that ship with two recoil springs, ship with the target spring installed. If you shoot hard ball or any defense ammo, the recoil spring needs to be changed to at least 16#. Older Gold Cups had lightened slides and are truly not suitable for firing lots of full-power .45 ACP. Third, extended slide releases have no place on a serious 1911. They cause premature slide lock by being bumped under recoil and have been known to break with low round counts. This is truly a waste of money. Fourth, the Gold Cup uses a special wide trigger that makes the frame non-standard. A standard 1911 trigger cannot be used in a Gold Cup. Older Gold Cups with the steel kidney trigger needed a sear depressor and spring to avoid inertia doubling of the pistol. They were fun to take apart and horrible to reassemble. The trick is to use a slave pin made from a Q-Tip to line everything up. Once again, a Gold Cup is a target pistol, not a survival gun. As for the sights, tritium can be a good thing or a bad thing. Depends on how you train. Some good advice in the above, but sort the wheat from the chaff. I like the advice about common rounds (but prefer .243 Win to .308 for ease of purchase), but the Contender Armor Alloy II barrels will not fit on a standard Contender frame. The alloy coating made them thicker in a few critical areas. A barrel can be sent to T/C to be modified to fit a standard Contender frame, but buyer beware. I will ignore the comment on .38 Special tracer ammo. Nothing good can be said about that one. As for finishes, Ion Bond has obsoleted everything else. Black finish that looks like bluing, wears like hard chrome, and protects against corrosion like NP3. Truly the best of all worlds.

Maddie | 10-14-2008 09:15 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Rawles is so going to get eaten by a bear! Seriously, that was a very informative post, farscott. You should go over to the guy's blog and email him the information you posted here.

Portmanteau | 10-14-2008 09:48 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1356009) Winchester makes a similar small-dimension variant of their Model 870.
Huh? I presume he means Remington 870.

wallew | 10-14-2008 10:32 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles farscott, You pretty much hit it on the head. I've got a couple of minor quibbles. Though no longer imported, the Norinco 1911 or 1911A1 were and still are one of the best, cheapest 1911's you can find, WHEN you can find one. http://www.gunsamerica.com/Search.aspx?T=Norinco%201911 Second is that the wide 'target trigger' can be put on ANY 1911, as it doesn't require the 'custom frame' as you said. I've installed many on customer guns. It's literally a drop in piece. All the ones I've installed were ribbed, though I have seen and held one wide trigger that was smooth. I'm not sure if it was a custom one off or just someone took a dremel tool to a ribbed one. It's the only one I've ever seen. And what is Rawles problem? NO foreign made weapons on his list AT ALL. While he may be writing to a US market, in this day and age of the internet, he should be aware that all sorts of people will read his words and leaving out foreign choices is plain stupid. As EVERYONE HERE knows, for dead bang reliablity, either an AK or the new HK M4's are going to do the job. And as has been said above, for a bolt action rifle the Mosin Nagant is tough to beat on price, ability to shoot well at distances out to 1000M and accurate as the day is long. And RIGHT NOW, you can lay in ammo 'wide and deep' fair cheaply(tip of the hat to TN Andy).

farscott | 10-14-2008 10:47 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles I stand by my statement that a Gold Cup will not allow one to install a standard trigger. It will drop into the gun, but it will have a ton of side-to-side slop. The front of the trigger track in a Gold Cup is wider. The result is a trigger with enough slop to be unsafe as the front sides of the trigger are not supported. I do not regard any 1911 trigger as drop-in as the entire fire control system is sensitive to tolerances. The only support is at the rear sides of the bow. There are aftermarket triggers specifically for the Gold Cup that fit and allow the sear depressor and spring to be removed, and newer Gold Cup Trophies are shipped from Colt with them. A wide trigger can be fit into a standard frame with no issues as metal can be removed from the trigger. I usually start with an oversize trigger and grind/polish it to fit. That way there is no vertical or horizontal slop; the trigger moves only on one axis. I am no fan of the Norinco 1911s. The few that I have looked at have poor barrel/slide lug fit and the slide lugs show evidence of peening. The SA guns are much better in this regard and are about as cheap.

ruprick | 10-14-2008 11:07 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles How can you beat: .357 Revolver 12 ga Pump 30.06 Rifle .22 Rifle This will work on ALL 2 and 4 leg game in every situation. If you need to carry in the concrete jungle....2 in .38 snubby revolver. If you can only have 1 gun ever.....Remington 870 Pump.

SHTF | 10-14-2008 11:16 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles [quote=ruprick;1357045]How can you beat: .357 Revolver 12 ga Pump 30.06 Rifle .22 Rifle [QUOTE] Quote:
.308 or .30-06, a 12-gauge pump shotgun with a spare riotgun barrel, a .22 LR rifle, and a .45 automatic pistol
.308 .45 12 gauge .22 end of discussion.

ruprick | 10-14-2008 12:39 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles [quote=SHTF;1357062][quote=ruprick;1357045]How can you beat: .357 Revolver 12 ga Pump 30.06 Rifle .22 Rifle Quote:
.308 .45 12 gauge .22 end of discussion.
This is pretty much the same list.....308 = 30.06 for all pratical purposes. 45ACP is awesome....but I still prefer the .357 revlover.....I shoot NRA Conventional Pistol "bullseye" and "hardball"....with a 45ACP - and with great difficulty you can get a 45ACP to group 3 inches at 50 yards...a decent revolver can do it no problem. Also - you need at least 45ACP +P+ to reach the energy and killing power of a .357......a 357 is a bad boy and has superior penetration over the 45. I like the 6" bbl revolver for better sight radius and better accuracy and better down range energy and velocity and load flexability....and reliability. 45ACP are better for spray and pray action gun fighting....but in a shootout...you probably would never use the fast reload capability. If you were out in the woods and had to face off against a big bad bear....would you rather have the 45ACP or .357? For me - no question - the .357. Read any work by Elmer Kieth "father of the 44 Mag" and see his results on all kinds of game....not much of a fan of the 45ACP....he did a lot of delevopment wotk around the .357 and 45 Long Colt...custom hand loads in strong revolvers. All that said, I'm thinking of hunting deer with a 45ACP this fall just to see the performance...but that will be with the most bad assed developed load my hardball gun can stand....just to reach the .357 performance.

silverblood | 10-14-2008 12:47 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles For survival purposes, I'd guess that a 45 ACP is mostly going to be relegated to close quarters personal defense, not hunting. If I was trying to decide between 357 or 45 for that purpose, I'd want the gun with the most widely available and least costly ammunition and the best availability of parts and the least prone to failure. Given my level of ignorance, I wouldn't know which that would be. As of right now I only have the 12 gauge and 22 LR covered. Studying up on the rest.

Portmanteau | 10-14-2008 03:48 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 1357045) How can you beat: .357 Revolver 12 ga Pump 30.06 Rifle .22 Rifle This will work on ALL 2 and 4 leg game in every situation. If you need to carry in the concrete jungle....2 in .38 snubby revolver. If you can only have 1 gun ever.....Remington 870 Pump.
For reliability and availability of ammunition from civilian sources, I have to agree! We have both Mossberg 500s and Remington 870s. Ironically, my primary is now my new one I just got...the Mossberg 590 Persuader...which is funny because my wife is Swedish, and I'm German...and my gun is from the Swedish-American company Mossberg, and hers from Remington. :biggrin:

Portmanteau | 10-14-2008 03:49 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by silverblood (Post 1357237) For survival purposes, I'd guess that a 45 ACP is mostly going to be relegated to close quarters personal defense, not hunting.
"Close quarters personal defense" means a 12 gauge. :wink:

Silver Wolf | 10-14-2008 04:54 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by Portmanteau (Post 1357641) my wife is Swedish
Yeah, yeah, rub it in....lucky bastard.... ;)

Smiling Bob | 10-14-2008 09:03 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Amazing that Rawles Picks just coincidentally happen to be sold by his paying advertisers at survivalblog.com. What are the odds? That conflict-of-interest annoyance aside, I still check his website regularly. :smile:

Irons | 10-14-2008 09:23 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat (Post 1356119) :553: I have to disagree with his choice of center fire rifle calibers IF ammo becomes scarce. He's right about country stores and hardware stores carrying .30-06 center fire ammo,it's about as common as dirt and the good old American classic. Not so with.308 and .223...although common as a domestic and semi military type round... . you'll find .243 and .270 much more easily The most common center fire round you are going to find in a small town out in the boondocks is .30-.30 hands down. Maybe not the best choice for medium to large game,but again,it's as common as dirt,and plentiful like the .30-.06. Either way...buy lot's of spare ammo and eliminate the possibility of running out right up front. :yes::yes::yes:
Its all good, but It depends on where you live. .243 and .270 are rare here in my small town, .308 and .223 are availble everywhere.

gasilat | 10-14-2008 09:40 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1356009) Speaking of bears, for homesteaders living in brown bear or grizzly bear country, a more powerful handgun than even the .45 ACP is often recommended. A stainless steel Smith and Wesson Model 629 (6-inch) .44 magnum, or Ruger Redhawk (5-1/2-inch) .44 magnum, or perhaps the Colt Anaconda (6-inch) .44 magnum would be good choices. If you would rather carry an automatic, the LAR Grizzly (.45 Automatic magnum), Wildey (.45 Automatic magnum), Desert Eagle (.44 magnum), or the long discontinued Auto Mag (.44 Auto Mag) would also serve the same purpose, although all of these guns are relatively expensive and heavy to to carry.
up at my cabin i estimate about 30 to 40 brown bears that like to hang out on the salmon streams within a 3 mile radius from me...when its july and the red salmon are running hard i don't think much about the bears as they are seriously feeding on fish...at other times they are more likely to wander through the yard or pass by the place...yesterday morning when i was there i noticed large bear tracks in the fresh snow that had fallen the night before about a stones throw away from the place...i have a S&W .44 magnum i carry in my holster sometimes because i'm there alone alot and don't have anyone to watch my back, its not that i'm particularly worried about bears in general, just the one bear that has an attitude for some reason...i really don't want to shoot a bear with a .44 mag unless i had too...still you can't carry a rifle around all the time, its usually sitting up on the porch...where i either have my 30.06 or .375 h and h. but the .44 magnum most of the people i know would like to have is the Smith and Wesson 329PD. Its very lightweight, which means a person will be "more likely" to have it on them when they are out and about...i don't have one yet, but i'm thinking about it... http://www.gunblast.com/SW329PD.htm my neighbors... .....

Ag_man | 10-14-2008 09:46 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by Irons (Post 1358407) Its all good, but It depends on where you live. .243 and .270 are rare here in my small town, .308 and .223 are availble everywhere.
True here in the upper Midwest, .30-06, .308 Win and .223 are available in any Wally World or Farm & Fleet.

Argentsum | 10-14-2008 10:51 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Local gunstore has a Springfield Scout .22 hornet/.410 parkerized but is asking $500. Cool tool but it ain't worth half a grand.

ruprick | 10-14-2008 10:58 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles I've been very impressed with the Remington Buckhammer Slugs on deer - simply amazing amount of recoil and energy....I'd say they seem more lethal than even the 30.06 I've wondered if it might be a better choice than 30.06 on big bears.....we only have black bears out in the bush of Michigan...mostly thinking about brown/grizz/polar - I just can't say enough about the Buckhammer Slugs. Anyone with a 12 ga should buy a box just for the experience - it produces more recoil than any factory cartridge except for the 458 Win Magand 416 Rem.....I'm a big solid guy and did not want to shoot it after 5 rounds...and I had sighted in 3 other 30.06 earlier in the day....and the Buckhammer is about 2X the recoil of a 30.06....

Argentsum | 10-14-2008 11:16 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles It be nice to have a golf bag full of firearms but the cost of ownership in maintaining equipment and skills gets to be intensive. I didn't see anything in the article that addresses flamethrowers for zombie defense.

Irons | 10-15-2008 10:05 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by Argentsum (Post 1358669) It be nice to have a golf bag full of firearms but the cost of ownership in maintaining equipment and skills gets to be intensive. I didn't see anything in the article that addresses flamethrowers for zombie defense.
All you need for zombie defence is a good shotgun with birdshot. If you blow thier friggin' head off they can't eat you.:banana:

Twisted Avatar | 10-15-2008 10:17 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Irons (Post 1359252) All you need for zombie defence is a good shotgun with birdshot. If you blow thier friggin' head off they can't eat you.:banana:
I must concur.........

ruprick | 10-15-2008 10:33 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by Irons (Post 1359252) All you need for zombie defence is a good shotgun with birdshot. If you blow thier friggin' head off they can't eat you.:banana:
BB, #4, #5, #6 shot are great....a lot of folks want to go with buckshot for home defense....but it has too much penetration on our houses made of paper/chalk walls......don't want to kill your kids ...or neighbors with stray shot....for the home....go with smaller shot....like #4...... It is not possible to repair any wounds made with large quantity of small shot....ever pattern a shotgun....inside 50 feet it is about the size of a basketball......at 30 yards (near 100 ft) a full choke puts 90% inside a 30 inch circle.

Twisted Avatar | 10-15-2008 11:07 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 1359325) BB, #4, #5, #6 shot are great....a lot of folks want to go with buckshot for home defense....but it has too much penetration on our houses made of paper/chalk walls......don't want to kill your kids ...or neighbors with stray shot....for the home....go with smaller shot....like #4...... It is not possible to repair any wounds made with large quantity of small shot....ever pattern a shotgun....inside 50 feet it is about the size of a basketball......at 30 yards (near 100 ft) a full choke puts 90% inside a 30 inch circle.
Wow ..........buckshot is THAT strong?? Good to know. T

Irons | 10-15-2008 11:16 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1359286) I must concur.........
Dude, you always come up with the best photos! One added point though, vampires have a hard time with thier face blown off, and if you have enough ammo thier face stays blown off.:9536:No worries.Zombies? PIFF bring them on!They will be stacked like cordwood.

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Irons | 10-15-2008 11:27 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1359381) Wow ..........buckshot is THAT strong?? Good to know. T
Yep, even stronger than that out of a 22+ inch barrel like is most common. Keep some low brass 6 shot for your pump, even 8 shot just make sure its low brass.

ruprick | 10-15-2008 11:40 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles I'm just saying a lot of folks don't think of the penetration capability of 30 caliber shot....when homes are made of paper/chalk walls. Get your buckshot and some drywall with air gap between sheets....also a lot of homes only have foam board with thin siding. This is important to know up front if you have kids on the other side of the paper walls...and applies to apartment dwellers as well...homes are flimsy these days. Do what you want.....but a 6 inch pattern of 200 pellets gets the job done in a house. Plenty of stopping power..... Glad you do not live across the wall from me or my kids....can you be sure you will not put a load through the wall...and why take the risk?

JJ_ | 10-15-2008 11:45 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by Irons (Post 1359418) Yep, even stronger than that out of a 22+ inch barrel like is most common. Keep some low brass 6 shot for your pump, even 8 shot just make sure its low brass.
why low brass? I use High brass 6 shot for dove huntin... I got laughed at for a while... till I was the one w/ the most birds. extends the range a bit I have found

JJ_ | 10-15-2008 11:52 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1359462) Ok, you are armed with under-penetrating birdshot. What are the bad guys armed with? Say they are outside your locked bedroom door. They can shoot through to you, but you can't shoot out. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot17.htm *I know this is a fabricated metal door, but birdshot probably wouldn't penetrate a quality wooden inside door either. **note that the kel-tec .32 hollow points both went through the door.
dood... I'm not advocating birdshot.. I was just asking why he perferred low brass

Irons | 10-15-2008 11:52 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1359419) http://i38.tinypic.com/qwy70z.jpg Birdshot...is for birds. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
I would rather not take a load of low brass 6 shot in the face, thats why I'm not a criminal and would never think of home invasion.If you think you have the sand to argue with a shotgun more power to you.You won't get far.:452:

JJ_ | 10-15-2008 11:58 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1359483) Wasn't aimed at you...so to speak. :biggrin: I'm just throwing information out there. No malice. I hope people will arm themselves with sufficient firepower to survive. Birdshot is for birds.
gotcha- and I agree.. I do think its a bit dumb to try to armchir qb this stuff... If it's necessary to have a firefight in the home - no matter what your'e using- its bad news- anybody in the house could get hit.

SLV>GLD | 10-15-2008 12:00 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles I have plaster walls. I have to use a hammer to put a thumb tack in. Birdshot is for birds.

Irons | 10-15-2008 12:07 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ ShortStroke (Post 1359460) why low brass? I use High brass 6 shot for dove huntin... I got laughed at for a while... till I was the one w/ the most birds. extends the range a bit I have found
Hello, I use mostly low brass 12 gauge because bird hunting up here is a 10-15 yard thing. I realize things are different in other areas. Oak scrub is tight hunting, we have to adapt. Here is a photo of what we would consider a great shot at a whitetail deer. Attachment 55539

Irons | 10-15-2008 12:25 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1359522) I'm not a criminal either...and don't want to be shot at even with a pellet rifle. The problem I have is this: people hear some rumor that sounds good in theory, but has no basis in fact and start spreading it around as fact...putting folk's life at risk.
Sigh, well facts are painful to folks like you.Heres one for you, buckshot will kill everybody in its path after it penertrates all drywall and also thin pine, buckshot will do so for about 80 yards after it go's through a wall. Buckshot will blow the living dogshit out of a moving car, take out all moving parts and leave it standing there blowing steam. I don't rant much but you sir, are a moron.:favorites21: Low brass small shot has its usefulness. Need to re word that, you are uninformed

Irons | 10-15-2008 12:41 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1359578) Nice edit on the end of your post. Nobody said it didn't have it's uses. It's just not good for home defense. You must be a JBT worried that folks will actually be able to protect themselves.
You are clapping with one hand,but good for you!:36_1_32v:

Irons | 10-15-2008 12:50 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1359601) Where are your facts? Proof? Statistics? Speculation? Crackpot theories? Just like I thought...you're just talking shit about something you know nothing about. Maybe you can do some more research with movies. Until then shut your mouth.
Spoken like a true office warrior, you understand nothing about what guns are able to do.Sheesh I truely hope you don't own any.

Irons | 10-15-2008 01:06 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1359633) I'm done wasting my time with you. Find a leading trainer that recommends birdshot for defensive purposes. Find some statistics of buckshot killing everyone in the county when used in defense. Find some articles stating birdshot is an effective manstopper. Or STFU.Everyone else please check out the links and decide for yourself. If you follow the 4 rules of gun safety and never aim a loaded gun in the direction of your loved ones this is all moot.
If you actually hit what you aim at the results are not pretty,be it a .45 9mm or even a .32 or .22 You really are a moron, ask any felon if they would like to have thier face blown off with birdshot.

elroy | 10-15-2008 02:34 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles I keep my nightstand stocked with a Springfield 1911 and two ten round mags. That is 20 rounds of 200 grain JHP +P If there is anybody that can eat all of that and still cause trouble, I'm going out the window.

Hivemindgammahydra7 | 10-15-2008 11:47 PM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by farscott (Post 1356757) There is some good info in there, but there is some junk. The quoted sentence is bad advice. First, the Gold Cup is a target pistol with fragile rear sights known for coming undone. The Colt Elliason rear sight has no place on a survival gun as it is famous for losing its roll pin. The value of a gun with that sight is zero, zlich, none, nada. It is junk. A BoMar rear is a much better choice if one must have adjustable sights. Unfortunately BoMar is no more as the owner has passed. Fixed sights are much more durable but the Gold Cup slide needs to be welded to accommodate fixed sights. Bad starting point. For a 1911, just buy a Springfield Armory gun. Best bang for the value. I like to use them as the basis for my 1911s as the steel is good and they are built fairly well. I usually toss all of the parts other than the frame and slide, but I have made do with a stock SA. If you have to have a Colt, buy anything but a Gold Cup and toss everything but the frame, slide, and barrel. Second, the Gold Cups ship from Colt with recoil springs set up for target loads. Even the new pistols that ship with two recoil springs, ship with the target spring installed. If you shoot hard ball or any defense ammo, the recoil spring needs to be changed to at least 16#. Older Gold Cups had lightened slides and are truly not suitable for firing lots of full-power .45 ACP. Third, extended slide releases have no place on a serious 1911. They cause premature slide lock by being bumped under recoil and have been known to break with low round counts. This is truly a waste of money. Fourth, the Gold Cup uses a special wide trigger that makes the frame non-standard. A standard 1911 trigger cannot be used in a Gold Cup. Older Gold Cups with the steel kidney trigger needed a sear depressor and spring to avoid inertia doubling of the pistol. They were fun to take apart and horrible to reassemble. The trick is to use a slave pin made from a Q-Tip to line everything up. Once again, a Gold Cup is a target pistol, not a survival gun. As for the sights, tritium can be a good thing or a bad thing. Depends on how you train. Some good advice in the above, but sort the wheat from the chaff. I like the advice about common rounds (but prefer .243 Win to .308 for ease of purchase), but the Contender Armor Alloy II barrels will not fit on a standard Contender frame. The alloy coating made them thicker in a few critical areas. A barrel can be sent to T/C to be modified to fit a standard Contender frame, but buyer beware. I will ignore the comment on .38 Special tracer ammo. Nothing good can be said about that one. As for finishes, Ion Bond has obsoleted everything else. Black finish that looks like bluing, wears like hard chrome, and protects against corrosion like NP3. Truly the best of all worlds.
Bitchin' post - thanks for this! You should e-mail Rawles as Maddie said and share what you posted here.

Smiling Bob | 10-16-2008 12:26 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1359462) http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot17.htm
This theboxotruth article absolutely wins the debate. :applause_

Irons | 10-16-2008 12:37 AM
Re: Survival Gun Selection by James Wesley, Rawles Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling Bob (Post 1361263) This theboxotruth article absolutely wins the debate. :applause_
Great post Bob. thanks!:coolbeer:

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