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- - Gunprints on casing (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=400345)

daveman | 08-18-2009 11:37 PM
Gunprints on casing I read that all handguns sold in the U.S. now have their "prints" registered with the government so that all the casings ejected would be traceable back to the handgun that fired it. So basically, fingerprints or no fingerprints, all shots fired from handguns can be traced now days?

mick silver | 08-18-2009 11:43 PM
Re: Gunprints on casing that why when you load the gun you clean the casing before loading

Heimdhal | 08-18-2009 11:51 PM
Re: Gunprints on casing Quote:
Originally Posted by mick silver (Post 1875160) that why when you load the gun you clean the casing before loading
No, he means talking about actual mechanical marks left on the casings from the action/cycling of the gun itself, not from a thumb or finger pushing the round into the mag. I havent heard of this exactly, but I know there are all sorts of ways to track casings. The ejector leaves marks on the rim of the cartridge that can be matched to your gun, the firing pins striking pattern, etc. But for all that they need the actual gun to test. I havent heard of gun companies or the federal government keeping a database of purposefully designed mechanical marking "prints" for the purpose of crime solving. Not saying its not possible, just havent heard it before. For those truly, truly worried about spent casings being used to identify the shooter, bolt actions and revolvers seem to be the way to go. "Friend to friend" sales in cash with no paper work(if your state permits) is also another option

Real Money Now | 08-19-2009 01:03 AM
Re: Gunprints on casing Revolvers solve the ejected casings problem. :biggrin:

crazychicken | 08-19-2009 01:06 AM
Re: Gunprints on casing 1911 You can change the ejector, extractor, firing pin and barrel in roughly two minutes--with a bit of practice. CC

SilverCity | 08-19-2009 01:30 AM
Re: Gunprints on casing Quote:
Originally Posted by crazychicken (Post 1875234) 1911 You can change the ejector, extractor, firing pin and barrel in roughly two minutes--with a bit of practice. CC
Same with Glock...and there are a number of other ways, like doing a bit of file work or polishing on the above mentioned parts. The only way LE can know a fired casing came from your pistol (hypothetically) is if you submit the little envelope with fired cases that came with your new pistol to your local LE/Sheriff to keep on file. Some states/counties require this...

daveman | 08-19-2009 02:16 AM
Re: Gunprints on casing Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 1875246) Same with Glock...and there are a number of other ways, like doing a bit of file work or polishing on the above mentioned parts. The only way LE can know a fired casing came from your pistol is if you submit the little envelope with fire cases that came with your new pistol to your local LE/Sheriff to keep on file. Some states/counties require this...
So that's what that little envelope is for. I just bought my first Glock 2 weeks ago, was curious about the little brown bag with 2 casings in it. So you are saying that when a gun has gone through the manufacturing process or the purchasing process, it has NOT been automatically filed for its "print." Correct? As long as the cartridge itself has no fingerprints, then it would be virtually impossible for anybody to identify the firearm used to fire the bullet?

DC7 | 08-19-2009 03:41 AM
Re: Gunprints on casing I'd object to the government keeping records of the "fingerprint" from every gun manufactured. And if they were doing it, I'd appreciate being informed about it here. As far as I'm concerned, people are smart for trying to be informed as to what the government is doing or is able to do. But I don't think we need the attention we'd get if a rumor got started that this site teaches people how to get away with shooting someone. Not saying that's what's going on...... but appearances matter. And we do have some members, much less lurkers, that I'm sure would call us on it if they thought we were advocating anything illegal. Not talking crap about anyone. Just a reminder for us all to be smart about how we present some subjects.

Tn...Andy | 08-19-2009 06:59 AM
Re: Gunprints on casing Quote:
Originally Posted by crazychicken (Post 1875234) 1911 You can change the ejector, extractor, firing pin and barrel in roughly two minutes--with a bit of practice. CC
Exactly.... or simply take a file and modify some components.....which makes any such previous "print" totally worthless. Total non-issue IMHO.

gbgunner | 08-19-2009 07:19 AM
Re: Gunprints on casing We were having a talk about this at the range the other day. Some states require that they receive the fired casing from the gun. So the manufacturer includes that test casing in the box with the gun. From what I understand is that in a state line Mass. the gun dealer is then responsible for taking that casing from the box when they sell it to you and send it to the proper authority. If you buy that gun with the test casings in Vermont then that's it. You buy it and it comes with a spent casing. I believe it has to do with manufacturers not knowing what state a gun may be distributed to so they include a casing with every gun.

tulsamal | 08-19-2009 07:44 AM
Re: Gunprints on casing I was reading a magazine in the Dr.'s office waiting room. Popular Mechanics or Science. There was a cover story about "the real state of forensics." I was surprised to see a mainstream magazine really cast a lot of doubt on things like this. They concluded that fingerprints and DNA were the only things that should really be considered hard evidence. Things like tire marks, shoe marks, hair samples, and bullet analysis should all be considered more like circumstantial evidence. Evidence which can be considered but which isn't conclusive or damning. As far as the casing in the gun case when you buy it, I know I read somewhere that so far there hasn't been a single criminal case where a criminal had been "found" because of cases found at the crime scene and then matched to a sale. And don't forget that it is dependent on the case being tested. If the test case is a Winchester standard brass one, then the marks would be different with a nickel plated Starline case. It's a joke. Instead of the anti-gun people admitting it has been a failure, they want to expand it with "micro-stamping" of each round of ammunition. Basically every round of ammunition has its own serial number. (They like to pretend they aren't pleased this would greatly push up the price of ammunition.) Gregg

SilverCity | 08-19-2009 10:49 AM
Re: Gunprints on casing 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by daveman (Post 1875280) So that's what that little envelope is for. I just bought my first Glock 2 weeks ago, was curious about the little brown bag with 2 casings in it. So you are saying that when a gun has gone through the manufacturing process or the purchasing process, it has NOT been automatically filed for its "print." Correct? As long as the cartridge itself has no fingerprints, then it would be virtually impossible for anybody to identify the firearm used to fire the bullet?
They could tell it was fired from a Glock and that's about it. Glock leaves a distinct mark on the fired primer.

hypervel | 08-19-2009 11:07 AM
Re: Gunprints on casing What-nobody keeps a nice compliment of spare parts these days?

Absintheur | 08-19-2009 11:55 AM
Re: Gunprints on casing Hypothetically speaking of course but I wonder if anyone has ever picked up a random piece of brass from the range and replaced the brass in the evelope before turning it in to the Sheriff...mmmmmm... Fortunately Indiana doesn't require that sort of silliness.

Rebel Yarr | 08-19-2009 12:00 PM
Re: Gunprints on casing yeah - I call BS - as mentioned above - change the extractor ect....if they are doing it...what a waste of money - can you imagine cataloging and storing all those cases oO

GoldWampum | 08-19-2009 12:35 PM
Re: Gunprints on casing Very very easy to change without impacting performance.

Tn...Andy | 08-19-2009 12:36 PM
Re: Gunprints on casing Tennessee used to require your thumbprints when purchasing a gun at a dealer.....they dropped that this year when some legislator pointed out in the years and years of doing this, not one crime had ever been solved by those prints and wasn't likely to ever happen.

SilverCity | 08-19-2009 01:01 PM
Re: Gunprints on casing Quote:
Originally Posted by Absintheur (Post 1875797) Hypothetically speaking of course but I wonder if anyone has ever picked up a random piece of brass from the range and replaced the brass in the evelope before turning it in to the Sheriff...mmmmmm... Fortunately Indiana doesn't require that sort of silliness.
I think something like that happened on one CSI episode. :biggrin: The perp planted someone else's brass at the crime scene.

CyberGold | 08-19-2009 03:13 PM
Re: Gunprints on casing Well I can tell you that I took 3 guns to the range and kept the spent brass separated. I was testing new loads with differnt mil/commercial brass and wanted to check for signs of pressure.When I got home I looked at them under a 10x microscope. After a couple I could tell exactly which gun fired each case. The markings on the primers and head were distinctive and any tooling marks or other imperfections were highly visible. The main way to eliminate these is to change the bolt face but each component leaves its own unique mark on the fired case - and it didn't matter if they were different brands or loads. As for the fired case that comes with the gun, I think the manuf does keep one or two in their file and ship a couple with the gun. Simple digital scans of the markings can be stored in a database and quickly matched to scans of other fired cases.... .... its not rocket science, its computer science!!!

S_Goldberg | 08-19-2009 03:23 PM
Re: Gunprints on casing Quote:
We were having a talk about this at the range the other day. Some states require that they receive the fired casing from the gun. So the manufacturer includes that test casing in the box with the gun. From what I understand is that in a state line Mass. the gun dealer is then responsible for taking that casing from the box when they sell it to you and send it to the proper authority. If you buy that gun with the test casings in Vermont then that's it. You buy it and it comes with a spent casing. I believe it has to do with manufacturers not knowing what state a gun may be distributed to so they include a casing with every gun.
This is what it is all about. No conspiracy, just that the manufacturers don't know where their product will be sold, so they cover their bases. If you don't live in a state that requires registration and "fingerprinting", then you get to keep the sample casings.

S_Goldberg | 08-19-2009 03:32 PM
Re: Gunprints on casing Quote:
We were having a talk about this at the range the other day. Some states require that they receive the fired casing from the gun. So the manufacturer includes that test casing in the box with the gun. From what I understand is that in a state line Mass. the gun dealer is then responsible for taking that casing from the box when they sell it to you and send it to the proper authority. If you buy that gun with the test casings in Vermont then that's it. You buy it and it comes with a spent casing. I believe it has to do with manufacturers not knowing what state a gun may be distributed to so they include a casing with every gun.
This is what it is all about. No conspiracy, just that the manufacturers don't know where their product will be sold, so they cover their bases. If you don't live in a state that requires registration and "fingerprinting", then you get to keep the sample casings.

TheNocturnalEgyptian | 08-19-2009 07:22 PM
Re: Gunprints on casing I purchased a .40 S&W M&P over the counter from a gun-shop in my town. I asked him what the deal was with the fired casing in a little envelope. His reply was, "In some states, they keep that on record, but not in this one, so shhhhhhhhh...."

Absintheur | 08-19-2009 07:37 PM
Re: Gunprints on casing I would also add that a Judge is going to throw the brass out as tainted evidence as soon as your lawyer asks for a chain of custody document. There isn't one...for it to be used as evidence there would have to be chain of custody signed starting with the manufacturer all the way to the Sheriff...no factory signs such a document, they would not go to court and swear under oath that the brass introduced was ever fired in your gun because they can't prove it was.

GoldWampum | 08-20-2009 12:39 AM
Re: Gunprints on casing Here in NM we don't register. Also your vehicle is considered an extension of your home so you can carry one hidden, in plain site or strapped on when you are in your vehicle. I will not guarantee that you will not have to train the cop on the law if he questions it though. Indian reservations are different though. If you get off the highway into the village, better have it hidden. No register no casing conflict.

mick silver | 08-20-2009 02:36 AM
Re: Gunprints on casing Quote:
Originally Posted by tulsamal (Post 1875469) I was reading a magazine in the Dr.'s office waiting room. Popular Mechanics or Science. There was a cover story about "the real state of forensics." I was surprised to see a mainstream magazine really cast a lot of doubt on things like this. They concluded that fingerprints and DNA were the only things that should really be considered hard evidence. Things like tire marks, shoe marks, hair samples, and bullet analysis should all be considered more like circumstantial evidence. Evidence which can be considered but which isn't conclusive or damning. As far as the casing in the gun case when you buy it, I know I read somewhere that so far there hasn't been a single criminal case where a criminal had been "found" because of cases found at the crime scene and then matched to a sale. And don't forget that it is dependent on the case being tested. If the test case is a Winchester standard brass one, then the marks would be different with a nickel plated Starline case. It's a joke. Instead of the anti-gun people admitting it has been a failure, they want to expand it with "micro-stamping" of each round of ammunition. Basically every round of ammunition has its own serial number. (They like to pretend they aren't pleased this would greatly push up the price of ammunition.) Gregg
i was at the doc office today an read that also . it look like half the crap is made up by cops an used againt the people

wallew | 08-20-2009 01:40 PM
Re: Gunprints on casing The more you fire a gun, the more parts wear. As they wear, they change the marks MADE on eject brass. So, go out there and 'change' the marks. Or as was said earlier, just use a rattail file and slight mar any surfaces you think the brass comes into contact with. Do not forget the magazines you use.

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