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- - Help with FIRST gun (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=279482)

daveman | 07-03-2008 02:13 AM
Help with FIRST gun Alright guys, I'm buying my first firearm ever to counter what maybe some ugly times ahead. What do I need to buy? I'm not a collector, I just want some good, solid, (cheap?) but quality guns that won't fail me when I pull the trigger and will sufficiently defend my family from intruders or bandits. Shotguns? Handguns? Rifles? Please give me a model number and price to take to my local gun dealer so I'll know what to ask for and if I'm getting ripped off. Thanks in advance. David

alaskamonte | 07-03-2008 02:29 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=103516531 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=103577143

daveman | 07-03-2008 05:55 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Thanks Alaska. I forgot to mention that I live in CA, would that first gun in the link be legal for me to buy here? Or perhaps the authorities won't know if I were to buy it online from out of state and have it shipped here? Those would be rifles, right? How about shotguns?

Twisted Avatar | 07-03-2008 06:12 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun I cant speak on shotties and rifles yet . But it terms of handguns........ without question you want a Glock. Glock is desgined for the newbie in mind and built dam near to never fail I have seen Glock toture test where the thing has be frozen in a block of ice and left in sandy mixx for days on end NOT CLEANED and the gun still fires.( this same gun was thrown out a airplane as well) anways you get my point..... Another thing that I love about glocks is you can exchange magazine clips with guns in the same caliber for ex. the G 17(beast) has a 17 rounder that can be used in the G26 (tiny tim) and BOTH GUNS can hold a 33 round mag. There are dozens of possible combo's Another thing is Glocks can take the highest performance ammo out there (+P+ Hollowpoints). You will see in due time that certain guns can not take high pessure rounds because they where not built to the highest standards. Glock can pretty , much take whatever you feed it and the clean easy as hell..... the breakdown is simple As you become more refined there are millions of different hand guns that will suit your taste but if you looking for the click bang and looks like a brick. Get a Glock. T

Twisted Avatar | 07-03-2008 06:22 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun I asked the same question many moons ago......... I saved it .....lots of good well rounded info from the sages. Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar First I would like to thank everyone for there help in advance Here is the situation: Have my permit (New Jersey) I have to make my purchase w/i the next 90 days. I have NO experience whatsoever( novice would be a understatment) From my readings of the other threads one should have at least 2 handguns and one long gun with about 5k in rounds for each and should have 2 sets of spare parts and matinence items for each weapon. What is the "toyota" of hand guns?.......is it a 9mm and what type specfically?? I MUST.......MUST have a 357 (dirty harry type)........I want the ability to put a intruder down in one shot ...........any recomndations on the nasitest beast of the bunch?? what is the most reliable ammo for these guns?? In case of a shft I want to ablity to use any munitions that I can find without worry about weapon jams Hit me with everthing you got: links, websites, articles, shops , people I can talk to to get a opinions, I would rather have too much information than not enough. Again I personally would like to thank everyone for helping me .. I can not explain how fortunate I feel to have this forum of people I can turn to and I know every recommedation will be in my best intrests........places like this on the net are few and far between. Many thanks Twisted Hmm. First up, try not to blow too much money on guns. ;) Get what I'm getting... P226R Double Action / Single Action DA/SA .357SIG (drop-in barrel replacement can take it to a .40 if desired also) http://www.gunshopfinder.com/sig/sigP226R.asp If you need to carry something lighter/more compact, then a sub-compact GLOCK .357SIG. Also come in 9mm if desired. Revolvers are pretty much old hat. They look great, are quite safe to carry around, sound like cannons when they go off, but generally lower muzzle velocities, and limited capacity. The limited capacity being the big worry. You can deal with a jam on a semi-auto etc. but you can't deal with running out of bullets and slow reloads (for most people) on a revolver. 9mm SIG or HK USP if you can afford something like that. GLOCK 9mm are extremely reliable handguns also, but the trigger takes some getting used to and will affect accuracy. HS2000 is another option, but it is a GLOCK-alike, better trigger, pretty well made, but won't last like a GLOCK. In terms of rifle. Well you do live in the USA, so I would say, HK, FN-FAL, Arsenal Inc. Forged SAM-7 or similar if you must have auto. Must have removable mags, even if lowish capacity mags. I don't like the idea of clips. If you want a bolt-action rifle and have a wad of cash you can blow and not think about, then a Sako TRG42 in .338 Lapau magnum with a top quality scope. I think a serious survivalist would choose 3-4 main guns. Rifle like the above, a semi-auto pistol (with interchangeable barrels to allow different calibres), shotgun (with various loads) or AK. You really don't need more than that. I'm not sure I'd bother with an AR unless it's accurised, scoped, and fires a decent caliber, and you need to keep it clean and maintained. There is no need to go overboard for most people, and start a gun collection, the above short list of guns properly maintained, will last you forever. __________________ _____________________________________________ " I dare do all that may become a man; Who dares do more is none " - Macbeth (Act I, Sc. VII) This post is Copyright (C) 2007. Only GIM and it's non-Government agency afiiliated members are permitted to read, utilise or store this message, unless prior consent is given by the author. Any other entity is hereby specifically denied from doing so. shades2 View Public Profile Send a private message to shades2 Send email to shades2 Find all posts by shades2 Add shades2 to Your Buddy List #3 1 Day Ago Jaxon Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 9 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are some links to various handgun and rifle forums. Read long, and read deep. http://www.ar15.com/ http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/ http://www.thehighroad.org/ http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/ http://glocktalk.com/forums/ Jaxon View Public Profile Send a private message to Jaxon Find all posts by Jaxon Add Jaxon to Your Buddy List #4 1 Day Ago noelephant Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 264 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greetings - welcome to the wonderful world of firearms. :) We had a very similar discussion in this thread: http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=211625 Perhaps that information can be useful to you as well. Cheers! noelephant View Public Profile Send a private message to noelephant Send email to noelephant Find all posts by noelephant Add noelephant to Your Buddy List #5 1 Day Ago SWRichmond Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 61 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Primary considerations: You are new to firearms, so keep it simple. If you are concerned about social breakdown (which I don't consider likely at all), don't buy exotic calibers for which ammo would become scarce quickly. I personally wouldn't worry about getting into extended firefights either, unless you are concerned about social breakdown. Most actual defensive gunfights involve firing one or two shots. What is most important is that you get something that you can operate quickly and effectively, and actually hit what you are aiming at. "A hit with a .22 is worth 2 misses with a .44 mag". Familiarity and practice are the keys, not magnum stopping power. Familiarity, to me, requires thousands of rounds of practice. Drawing, aiming and firing a handgun must become something your muscles know how to do without you thinking about it. Your hands learn what a correct grip feels like. Your body knows how to achieve balance for different positions. Your eyes are drawn to the front sight like a moth to a candle. Practice practice practice. This is far more important than stopping power. HIT THE TARGET, quickly and effectively. Don't buy so much gun that the recoil makes it hard for you to learn to shoot it correctly. This is especially important if you are new to handguns. I know a lot of people who have big caliber guns they read about in some magazine; I know very few who can actually hit anything with them. Mastering big caliber handguns takes years, and thousands, if not tens of thousands, of rounds of cumulative practice. Don't try to shoot fast, especially at first. Get someone who knows how to shoot teach you. You have to teach your body correctly, and trying to do it fast will only screw you up. Learn what constitutes allowable use of deadly force in your home state. New Jersey isn't known for being gun friendly. Revolvers are simple, reliable, and easy to operate and clean. Ammo for .38 and .357 is plentiful and common. A .357 revolver can shoot .38 special and so makes a good dual-purpose gun. Short-barreled .357's kick. 9mm semi-autos are common, as is their ammo. With the right ammo, the Colt Commander .45ACP is a fantastic gun but is no beginner's gun. It requires time and mods such as better sights, trigger work, throating, springs, etc. Sorry, I am old school. Buy the best quality you can reasonably afford. Practice practice practice. No gun is worth anything if you can't hit quickly with it. Hit first. Be sure to lock up your guns to keep them away from kids (or roommates as may be the case). You must do this. Buy one of those combination quick-open gun vault under the bed thingys for your home defensive gun. Join the NRA, they are the only reason you can still buy guns in New Jersey. SWRichmond View Public Profile Send a private message to SWRichmond Send email to SWRichmond Find all posts by SWRichmond Add SWRichmond to Your Buddy List #6 1 Day Ago <SLV> Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,422 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NRA?!?!?!?!? Join Gun Owners of America (GOA) - they don't compromise. How much do you want to spend? What you can afford greatly dictates what you should own. 5,000 rounds per gun is a little much. 1,000 per gun will probably be sufficient for you. If you are going to shoot a lot save the brass from your initial purchase and reload the brass. You can also get bullet molds for dire emergencies (zombie invasion). My Recommendations ($1000 budget) 1. Revolver - Taurus Model 608 .357 Magnum w/4" barrel (@$400). Get it blued (not stainless). Shiny guns are pretty at the range, but bad for self-defense. You'll be glad to hear it is a 8-shot revolver. "Was that 5 shots or six, Punk? Oh well... doesn't matter because this is a 8-shot revolver. BANG! BANG!" For home defense ammo get Federal Hydra-shok. Outstanding expansion with limited travel through hard surfaces. 2. Pistol - CZ-52. These can be had for @$170, and they breathe fire like a dragon. No pistol on the market compares penetration-wise. Only available pistol that can defeat body-armor. I know you don't think you will need to shoot at armored intruders, but keep this one in your car in case you are in a shoot-out involving steel/glass cover. BTW... you MUST go to www.makarov.com and spend $75 on the forged firing pin, 16.5 pound recoil spring, and hardened steel rollers if you want it to last. If you can increase your budget by $400 then get the Glock 19. Small enough to carry concealed while offering 15 rds in a double-stack magazine. For carry ammo in the Glock you want Federal Tactical Bonded - pierces glass/steel, but still expands on soft tissue. The CZ-52 military surplus ammo is OK if you buy the right stuff. I like the Romanian surplus at $8.00/72 rounds. The Sellier&Bellot stuff is @$0.15/rd., but it is good modern ammo. All of it is FMJ ball ammo. 3. Rifle - Saiga AK in 7.62x39 w/16" barrel. Buy it through www.rrarms.com. Great service and best price at $247.25. I find that shipping on guns is cheaper than buying in state and paying taxes. Also get some 30-rd. Saiga mags. Best internet stores: www.budsgunshop.com www.gilbertsguns.com www.rrarms.com Best auction sites: www.gunbroker.com www.gunsamerica.com www.auctionarms.com Best ammo sites: www.cheaperthandirt.com www.aimsurplus.com __________________ The content of this post is for entertainment purposes only and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the poster. Furthermore, claims made by the poster are deemed to be fictitious for the purpose of entertainement. All rights reserved. Photo of 2003 Britannia complements of TomD. Thanks! <SLV> View Public Profile Send a private message to <SLV> Find all posts by <SLV> Add <SLV> to Your Buddy List #7 1 Day Ago jaybone Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 65 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Congratulations on your firearm ID card and handgun permit. One question, did you have to take them to court to get the permits or did NJ just give it to you? It is very difficult to get the ID card and nearly impossible to get the handgun permit. jaybone View Public Profile Send a private message to jaybone Find all posts by jaybone Add jaybone to Your Buddy List #8 1 Day Ago Twisted Avatar Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Queens New York Posts: 30 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks everybody for the feedback so for........I realize pratice is the key. familarize and muscle memory and GET QUALITY EDUCATION. I have no desire to become a gun buff. My main motive is protection in case TSHTF. I fear TPTB more than I fear a thug on the street. I can avoid situations and areas that would put my personal safety at risk. Not so when the TPTB come looking for there "pound of flesh"'. I will start to research into the links provided thus far Thanks a mill T __________________ Awareness is Everything Twisted Avatar View Public Profile Send a private message to Twisted Avatar Send email to Twisted Avatar Find all posts by Twisted Avatar Add Twisted Avatar to Your Buddy List #9 1 Day Ago REV127 Gold Member+ Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,955 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dirty Harry had a .44mag, he did respect the .357 though. You can shoot a .357 all day, I love'em. Fullpower .44mag loads are something you get tired of quick. Anyway stopping power comes from shot placement, not magic bullets or magic calibers. There isn't a hill of beans worth of difference in stopping power between any of the service calibers. 7.62x25 is my favorite pistol cartridge, ever. It is cheap right now if you're willing to shoot corrosive ammo. A very good thing to own for the reasons stated but I'm not sure it's a good choice as a first gun for a beginner because of various quirks. If you want to be cool get a .45 or .40. If you want a utilitarian working weapon that you can train with and that can defend you get a 9mm. Guns are cheap, whatever you spend on the gun. It's the ammo that will cost you and it gets mighty expensive shooting the thousands of rounds of .45 or .40 you'll need to get proficient enough to reliably get good shot placement which is the only thing that will stop the badguy anyway. 9mm gets you to the same goal and does so less expensively. They are also easy on the recoil and generous on capacity, two features that are a big plus. Probably all reasons why just about every army has switched to them, even the Russians. Hot 9mm loads approach the power levels of low end .357mags. If you want a polymer framed pistol try a Glock. If you want a steel or aluminum framed pistol I highly recomend the CZ line. Excellent reliability and durabiltiy, reasonable price, excellent accuracy and a lower bore axis than a Sig which makes for more manageable recoil. The other nice thing about the CZ line is the Kadet Kit. It's a slide and mag that will fit on any 9mm CZ(except maybe the sub-compact RAMI) and converts your pistol to shoot .22lr for really cheap practice. Since it is just the slide you don't have to fill out any paperwork to own it, it isn't technically a firearm itself. http://www.cz-usa.com/products_handguns.php Standouts would be the compact P-01, the 85 Combat and the SP-01 if you want a fullsize. It is a good idea to look at a compact pistol because it is more likely to get carried. A gun can't protect you if it gets left at home. As for a rifle the first thing you need to determine is what the terrain in your area is like. Wide open spaces require a fullhouse .30cal rifle for long range shots. If you only have around 200 yards of visibility on average it makes sense to choose a rifle that fires an intermediate cartridge. You'll save a holy fortune on ammo and you'll have half the weight to lug around if TSHTF. A good gun should be able to shoot just about any ammo. Hypothetically speaking FMJ is the most reliable but with most quality guns that is very hypothetical. Practiically speaking FMJ is what you will end up buying thousands of rounds of because it is much cheaper than the alternatives with a few rare expections. For instance if you owned an SKS or an AK that shoots 7.62x39 the most potent hollow point costs the same as the most basic FMJ load despite the wide gulf in performance between the two. 7.62x54r is another case like that. Compare that to something like the American classic .308. You'll pay more than 50 cents per round for basic FMJ and you can pay up to a couple dollars a round for the really primo stuff. The Russians just do things differently I guess. Money has a lot to do with it, too. If you tell us what your terrain is like and what kind of dwelling you live in, plus your price range we can all have a lot of fun offering up our personal suggestions for you to consider. As for resources, it's a good idea to know what your weapons can actually do. Here are some good sites with some practical experiments. http://www.theboxotruth.com/ http://www.brassfetcher.com/ http://www.remington.com/products/am...on/ballistics/ http://www.handloads.com/calc/ REV127 View Public Profile Send a private message to REV127 Send email to REV127 Find all posts by REV127 Add REV127 to Your Buddy List #10 23 Hours Ago buff01 Silver Member+ Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: CA Posts: 1,742 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GLOCK 9mm is the toyota of handguns. AK-47 is the toyota of rifles. Both are highly recommended. Get hollow point ammo, you'll be fine. __________________ The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. RON PAUL 2008! buff01 View Public Profile Send a private message to buff01 Find all posts by buff01 Add buff01 to Your Buddy List #11 23 Hours Ago Twisted Avatar Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Queens New York Posts: 30 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks jay ...I was so worried about getting it .because the more I read ......the more I understood what gun control was about: YOU MUST ASK THE STATE FOR PERMISSION TO DEFEND YOURSELF !! when I finally relaized that it was like a expolsion went off in my mind and I made getting my permit priority number one!! The amazing thing I did not have the fight the PD or the State .God and the universe were smiling down on me because I didnt have a to wait long ( I appiled in august) but it felt like eternity. I really have a very pessimistic view of what is going to happen in the country in the next 24-36 months ( maybe not zombie waste land but 2 steps above it!!) some other people wanted to know what my budget is and my terrain so they get more specfic about recomdendations. I will most likely have about a 3k budget for purchases. money wont really be a problem( I am not rich xray tech by profession but it is stable income) I live smack in the middle of a typical town no yard or real privacy if it ever went down bad I would have to cooperate with neighbors so I wouldnt get over run. so I dont think a rifle will be necsarry I dont have the money to relocate upstate so I have to make my stand near the city (queens) I have a rental property in NJ but that is in the middle of town as well so no real protection there. When I get my arms I know to make sure it is "blued' the shiny stuff may compromise you in the dark. I now realize pretty has nothing to do with tactical advantage. ( which is what I want) keep it coming guys........thanks so much T __________________ Awareness is Everything Twisted Avatar View Public Profile Send a private message to Twisted Avatar Send email to Twisted Avatar Find all posts by Twisted Avatar Add Twisted Avatar to Your Buddy List #12 22 Hours Ago REV127 Gold Member+ Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,955 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ah, urban environment with no realistic chance to relocate at present and a $3,000 budget? Well, you're better financed than many. For a handgun I would recomend the CZ-P01 9x19mm. It's a serious piece, official issue of the Czech police and also approved for NATO issue. http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=28 The tac rail will allow you to easily mount a light, which is extremely beneficial for ID-ing your target in the target and will also blind an attacker. You don't walk around with the light on, you switch it on when you come upon your enemy. In the city or in the woods the 7.62x39 rules. It's effective out to 200 yards in the hands of an average shooter and will turn all commonly encountered cover into swiss cheese. That is one of the main reasons for a city dweller to have a rifle, not so much for the long range aspects as for the ability to penetrate cover being used by an attacker. I don't know your state's laws but on your budget you should look at an SKS or an AK. Ammo will be cheap, too. 20 cents a round, the stuff you want is Wolf Military Classic HP. This specific ammo is the most effective against a soft target you can get in this caliber, it fragments. You'll need more than guns though. Pepperspray fogger units and grenades can be used just like teargas to break up any mobs heading your way in a riot. http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/1lb.htm http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/grenade.htm A yappy little dog can alert you to trespassers outside. Or try the electronic version. http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/h...tion/index.php You will also want armor. I reccomend a kevlar LVL II concealable vest, a LVL III stand alone steel rifle plate and a kevlar helmet as the best bang for your buck. Since you may very well find yourself one man or only a few people against a much larger group this is one area you can tilt the odds significantly in your favor. Any way you cut it having your vital organs protected when you feel the need is a huge advantage. As has often been said 1 gun and 1 vest beats 2 guns and no vest. The whole setup should come in around 15lbs, $750 and worth every penny. Consider tactical goggles or Oakley M-Frames for some ballistic eye protection. The vest itself is under 4lbs and can be worn under most clothes easily if you have to go into a bad area. Add the plate and helmet if it's the apocolypse outside. Try these guys, www.bulletproofme.com You'll also want a tactical light. I like LED's but they don't always come cheap. Brinkman makes a 3 Watt LED they sell at Target for around $30. I have one and it'll throw a 50+ lumen beam 100+ yards on my property. I wouldn't doubt there's an upgraded model available now. The Surefire 6P is a good old standby. www.lighthound.com http://www.flashlightreviews.com www.candlepowerforums.com You'll also need something to carry your mags, pepper, etc in. There are a number of good chest rigs and tactical vests out there but usually you pick that out after you decided on which guns you're going to get. Shouldn't cost you over $150 for good stuff though. There are also a number of different concealed carry holsters available and you'll probably need on. I like Jackass/Miami Classic style shoulder holsters and IWB holsters. That'll just about eat up your budget once the ammo is figured in but you'll actually have tactical overmatch against any adversary you'd be likely to face. Then as time goes on you'll move into more advanced things for even more money, like some tactical training and various weapons accessories, optical sights etc. Probably the only other thing to tack on at the momment would be some reading material or instructional videos to help you learn something about self defense as opposed to just range work but you have to get the basics of marksmanship down first anyway. REV127 View Public Profile Send a private message to REV127 Send email to REV127 Find all posts by REV127 Add REV127 to Your Buddy List #13 22 Hours Ago Wyldwil *Gold Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: South Florida Posts: 3,661 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There's been a lot of talk about the .357 sig here at GIM lately. That round has not caught on enough IMO. Maybe it's an aussie thing..... __________________ [T]he essence of so-called war prosperity; it enriches some by what it takes from others. It is not rising wealth but a shifting of wealth and income. � Ludwig von Mises Setting a good example is a far better way to spread ideals than through force of arms. ~Congressman Ron Paul Quote: Originally Posted by Streets Of Gold If you think God does not kill people you are more naive than I thought. Wyldwil View Public Profile Send a private message to Wyldwil Send email to Wyldwil Find all posts by Wyldwil Add Wyldwil to Your Buddy List #14 22 Hours Ago wallew Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Denver, Co North America USA Planet Earth Posts: 1,556 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I concur with what's been said above. A picture is worth a thousand words... Here's a couple thousand words then... http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1198170283 http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1198170283 If you purchase the .357 revolver you can then get a lever action rifle (think like the old west) and the ammo for your pistol fits your rifle. This will ONLY be good at distances 100 yards or less. Here's a link to Cimmaron Firearms, where you can pick up a really nice lever action. BY NO MEANS are these guys the cheapest way to go. If a lever action rifle 'trips your trigger' and you don't wish to spend this kind of money, look at Winchester or Marlin (especially the Marlin) as they will probably be less expensive. OH, those round things NEXT to the pistols? They are called speed loaders. My WIFE can reload her revolver practiaclly faster than I can reload my CZ52's. http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/Rep.../1892Model.htm If you lean towards semi-auto CZ52 handguns and LIKE the idea of a carbine style rifle in the same caliber as your pistol, then consider either the PPS43 or it's earlier sibling PPSh41, both of which shoot the 7.62x25 that's used in the CZ52. Here's a link to Military Gun Supply for their version of the PPS43 (they also manufacture a PPSh41 and it is on their website as well). I will note again that with this carbine, the distance that it's viable at is LESS than 100 yards. With ANY semi-auto firearm, you REALLY NEED a fair supply of magazines. Note that I have four for each pistol - and they are factory mags - avoid aftermarket CZ52 mags. For my soon to be purchased PPS43, I will purchase at least twenty magazines. Then when I can afford it, I will purchase another twenty magazine, giving me a total of forty 36 round magazines for my PPS43 carbine. NO, I'm not concerned about firing pins or rollers or replacement springs on the CZ52, but I have the armorer's kit that gives me enough parts to rebuild 10 CZ52 pistols, so I'm not really worried. http://www.militarygunsupply.com/sho...roducts_id=132 Do not forget a 'long range' type of weapon. My personal choice is Remington 700 BDL Heavy Barrel. My caliber of choice is .308. My scope is a Burris Signature series 3 - 9 power magnification. You should ALSO consider at least one shotgun. If you want simplicity, look at 'coach' guns. That's an 18 inch double barrel shotgun, generally in 12 gauge, though they are available in other calibers. If you don't mind a pump shotgun, then Mossberg or Remington 870 seems to be the shotgun of consensus here. If you are REALLY thrifty, consider an 'over under' type of shotgun/rifle. A 12 gauge shotgun AND a .308 rifle. OR several other caliber choices are available. Ammo. For your pistols. Bare minimum would be 500 for a revolver and 1000 for a semi-auto. For your carbine, as it would be sharing your pistol ammo, just double whatever you think you need and you'll be good to go. For a bolt action rifle, 1000 rounds is considered minimum. For a shotgun, I would stock at least 500 rounds in a variety of 00, 000, and bird shot. Notice that I have not discussed any 'intermediate' distance rifles. AK47's are my choice. Others have other suggestions. Leave me to say that short of hordes of 'mutant ninja zombies', chances of needing a semi-auto rifle that covers the 100 - 200 yard range is at best debatable. I have several. And WAY more magazines and drums and ammo than I probably should have. But I've been purchasing them on and off for years and years when they were really cheap. Here's a link on an extremely tortured Glock... http://www.theprepared.com/index.php...iew&id=90&Item To read about the penetrating power of the CZ52, here's a link for that... http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm If you have any questions, feel free to drop me a line. Attached Thumbnails __________________ I'm a Renaissance man, gunsmith, NRA certified firearms instructor, chef, gardener, medic, computer whiz, philosopher, mechanic, bartender, janitor, and security specialist wallew View Public Profile Send a private message to wallew Send email to wallew Find all posts by wallew Add wallew to Your Buddy List #15 19 Hours Ago <SLV> Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,422 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The CZ-52 is quirky for a beginner, but the price and capabilities make it worth considering. The biggest thing is to replace three things as soon as you get it: 1. Firing Pin (the cast factory one can break easily) 2. Recoil Spring (the original one is 50+ years old and isn't stiff enough to keep the slide from punishing, or cracking, the frame). 3. Rollers (factory rollers can get out of round and start sliding - if they do you can count on getting a new barrel) All of these things will cost you $75 (shipping included) from www.makarov.com. This includes the competition firing pin kit which also tunes the trigger pull. The only other "quirk" is the unreliability of the de-cock lever. You can find out if yours is working by inserting a pencil (eraser end first) into the barrel and de-cocking. If the pencil moves, then there is a risk your gun will fire on de-cocking. MAKE SURE THE GUN IS UNLOADED before trying this!!! I've been surprised at how accurate this gun is. Very well balanced (easy to keep on target) and tight groups for me with one hand at 25 yards. It is feels great in my large hands. Someone with average to small hands might not enjoy it so much. __________________ The content of this post is for entertainment purposes only and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the poster. Furthermore, claims made by the poster are deemed to be fictitious for the purpose of entertainement. All rights reserved. Photo of 2003 Britannia complements of TomD. Thanks! <SLV> View Public Profile Send a private message to <SLV> Find all posts by <SLV> Add <SLV> to Your Buddy List #16 18 Hours Ago REV127 Gold Member+ Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,955 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My CZ 52 is set up in almost the exact same way. After the Harrington competition firing pin the thing has a really sweet trigger pull and as you said, darned accurate! As it happens mine also has a working decocker, though I never use it. I've got a few Aguila IQ 9mm's that got in before they were banned but as it stands it's the CZ-52 that goes on my Mad Max gear. If I can sabot a .357sig down to .30cal that all goes out the window though... muahahaha! REV127 View Public Profile Send a private message to REV127 Send email to REV127 Find all posts by REV127 Add REV127 to Your Buddy List #17 17 Hours Ago <SLV> Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,422 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by REV127 My CZ 52 is set up in almost the exact same way. After the Harrington competition firing pin the thing has a really sweet trigger pull and as you said, darned accurate! As it happens mine also has a working decocker, though I never use it. I've got a few Aguila IQ 9mm's that got in before they were banned but as it stands it's the CZ-52 that goes on my Mad Max gear. If I can sabot a .357sig down to .30cal that all goes out the window though... muahahaha! My CZ-52 is attached to my prospecting back-pack. Just in case I anger a bear or wildcat. __________________ The content of this post is for entertainment purposes only and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the poster. Furthermore, claims made by the poster are deemed to be fictitious for the purpose of entertainement. All rights reserved. Photo of 2003 Britannia complements of TomD. Thanks! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last edited by <SLV> : 16 Hours Ago at 06:30 PM. Reason: Speling <SLV> View Public Profile Send a private message to <SLV> Find all posts by <SLV> Add <SLV> to Your Buddy List #18 16 Hours Ago Twisted Avatar Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Queens New York Posts: 30 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for everybodys help so far ....... It is going to take me a good 30 days to sift through all the material I got here.and follow up on the links but just skimming some of the sites it looks priceless. I could have spent 500 hours on the net and not come up with the material you guys did in less than 2 hours I realize that this is serious business. When I purchase that firearm I know my life will never be the same ....... nobody can just do anything to me anymore, I will now have the ability to take them out of this world. That is something I wont just gloss over because anyway you slice it the ramifications are huge. You can be 1000% in the right on a self defense issue but once the media and state and the D A get through with you , you will be lucky if you are not looking at life in prison. I really am greatful for all the opinions as well....... it really pushes me to think extra ctrical the sugestions that you guys give I dont think I would find gun forum/clinic. everybody is contributing top notch stuff..... This info Is the best christmas gift I could ever get!! many thanks T __________________ Awareness is Everything Twisted Avatar View Public Profile Send a private message to Twisted Avatar Send email to Twisted Avatar Find all posts by Twisted Avatar Add Twisted Avatar to Your Buddy List #19 16 Hours Ago Mike_Templar Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 199 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by buff01 GLOCK 9mm is the toyota of handguns. AK-47 is the toyota of rifles. Both are highly recommended. Get hollow point ammo, you'll be fine. I agree reliability wise, but I never felt comfortable shoving my G17 into the front of my pants. When my triple safety 1911 is holstered or otherwise concealed, I don't give it a second thought about it going off! He's looking for simplicity though, which tells me REVOLVER. I'd look at 357 so you can shoot / practice w/ 38 specials if you want. The advantage of revolver to me with a noob is this: click, bang. click, no bang? Click again, bang! Not so easy w/ an automatic. More like, click bang, click, no bang, hmmm...stove pipe? FTF? FTE? Etc..... __________________ �To read a newspaper is to refrain from reading something worth while. The first discipline of education must therefore be to refuse resolutely to feed the mind with canned chatter.� - Aleister Crowley Mike_Templar View Public Profile Send a private message to Mike_Templar Find all posts by Mike_Templar Add Mike_Templar to Your Buddy List #20 16 Hours Ago REV127 Gold Member+ Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,955 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sounds good! It's definately wise to get familiarized with the subject matter before just jumping in on the first thing you see. It also sounds like you have a level headed approach not only to weapons but also the responsibility of owning and using them. REV127 View Public Profile Send a private message to REV127 Send email to REV127 Find all posts by REV127 Add REV127 to Your Buddy List #21 14 Hours Ago electric-amish Silver Member+ Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,092 Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Even a .380(Small pistol) will feel like the mightiest weapon in your hand when shooting is happening around you. Get something and get lots of range time.Shoot lots of bullets. Shoot a lot so its natural and you can hit what you need to hit quickly. Bigger is not always better if you can't afford to get the practice to hit what needs hitting or have recoil issues affecting accuracy. Have some fun and be safe. Electric-Amish

Twisted Avatar | 07-03-2008 06:24 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Oh yeah........ Welcome to GIM......... you are among good friends. T

Caligula | 07-03-2008 07:53 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1174483) Glock is desgined for the newbie in mind and built dam near to never fail I have seen Glock toture test where the thing has be frozen in a block of ice and left in sandy mixx for days on end NOT CLEANED and the gun still fires.( this same gun was thrown out a airplane as well)
http://www.theprepared.com/index.php...iew&id=90&Item :s1:

UberNoob | 07-03-2008 07:57 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun It depends on what you want to use this first gun for...... Also depends on where you live...this will determine what your most immediate needs would be when these "ugly" times arrive. Home defense...get a shotgun. Personal defense....get a handgun. Need to eat?..get a rifle. Personally...I would get a .22LR rifle...get some training...and then plink away....of course I live in the country....this might not be the thing for you.

TheGrayGhost | 07-03-2008 08:06 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun You're going to get a million opinions, but what the hell, here's mine. You say you want good, solid, cheap guns. I agree whole-heartedly. My recommendations will mostly follow that guideline. No fancy, overpriced, "Oohhh, I've got a fancy European _______" recommendations. But no junk either. You need at an absolute minimum: A handgun - I recommend Ruger (autoloaders- P93,94,95,345 or revolvers- any of them) A shotgun - I like the Mossbergs.. good shotty, dependable, good price. A decent "battle" rifle - Bushmaster AR15 or AK47 (I'm partial to AR's, but they are more $$) After that: A .22 rifle for small game hunting - Ruger 10/22 is the best, and one of the cheapest. A hunting/sniper rifle - Remington 700 series 30.06 is inexpensive, and rock-solid. Along with an absolute minimum of 500 rounds per gun, and 1500 rounds for the battle rifle. "Common to break" spare parts for all of them are a good idea You could get everything above for around $4000 or so if you're a smart shopper and use internet gun dealers and gunbroker for most of your purchases. Good Luck.

Tallships | 07-03-2008 08:19 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun 12 gauge semi auto shotgun with slug barrel and scope. Best all around. great with shot shells for home defense, and with scope and slugs you can reach out and touch something.

Twisted Avatar | 07-03-2008 08:31 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Quote:
Originally Posted by Caligula (Post 1174532) http://www.theprepared.com/index.php...iew&id=90&Item :s1:
That was the reason I got a glock...... I have never in my life seen anything take that sort of abuse and still work. Thanks for digging that up !!!:smile: T

Darkside | 07-03-2008 08:40 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun I'll throw in my two [devalued] cents: 1. First, get a handgun. I recommend the XD45. .45 caliber handgun which can hold up to 13 rounds in its mag (thats pretty impressive considering the size of .45 rounds) with top quality construction. I got one. I love it. Springfield Armory XD45 ACP ~$450-$500 2. A 12 ga semi automatic shotgun, the Saiga S12. It's cheap but it's based on the tried and true AK47 receiver so you know its reliable. Also it is made in Russia so you dont have to worry about sub par quality parts as you would with AK's manufactured by random countries. I have one. I love it. Saiga 12 Shotgun ~$350-$500 3. A .308 Remington 700 rifle. This will be your hunting rifle but can also double as defense in the odd situation where you will be defending yourself at long range. That of course is very unusual though. thats why I hesitate to recommend a "battle rifle" because the vast majority of self defense situations are close range so you want your handgun or shotgun. But having a long range rifle is always a nice bonus. I don't have one, but planning to buy it soon. Remington Model 700 ~%$500-$750

jrog100 | 07-03-2008 09:45 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Buy a S&W 66 357 with a 4" barrel. This is the perfect gun for everything you'd ever need it for (except maybe a zombie invasion).

teedub31 | 07-03-2008 09:47 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun since you are buying your first gun, I am going to make a big assumption that your experience level shooting firearms is small. Handguns and rifles are great if you are an effective shot, but that takes practice. A shotgun is a more forgiving point and shot weapon suitable for novices in my opinion. Hit rate is a lot higher when using the shot gun as opposed to the need for pinpoint accuracy need when using a pistol or rifle. Now I am not saying that you should not acuire a handgun, I am just saying that you probably ought to get a shotgun 1st followed by a pistol (really soon so you can practice). As for the shot gun Rem 870 in a 12 ga. If you are small in stature a 20ga will suffice. Try and get them both to chamber 3" shells for diversity. The 870 express should run about 300 to 400 dollars and will last your lifetime.

daveman | 07-03-2008 04:07 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Thanks for the replies, EVERYBODY. I'll be reading every post from top to bottom after work. Yes, I have never fired a projectile weapon before (unless you count those rubber band toy guns), so even the terminology is confusing. When you guys mention the caliber of the bullets, that number is in inches? And that refers to the width of the bullet or the length? How can one gun fire off two different sized bullets? What's the difference between a mag and a clip? Sorry for the noobness, but I have put off buying a gun (s) for sometime now, and I don't know if it is wise for me to wait much longer. Also, I live in California, so if I want to buy a particular gun like an AK or something, would that be legal here? If I were to buy on the internet, would that be okay then?

SkinnyMoose | 07-03-2008 04:10 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Something light but I would go long... .30-30 for eating, defending, and carrying... :emotions16:

daveman | 07-03-2008 04:13 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun TA, that glock is CRAZY. How much does a good glock run for?

SilverCity | 07-03-2008 04:34 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Quote:
Originally Posted by daveman (Post 1175288) Thanks for the replies, EVERYBODY. I'll be reading every post from top to bottom after work. Yes, I have never fired a projectile weapon before (unless you count those rubber band toy guns), so even the terminology is confusing. When you guys mention the caliber of the bullets, that number is in inches? And that refers to the width of the bullet or the length? How can one gun fire off two different sized bullets? What's the difference between a mag and a clip? Sorry for the noobness, but I have put off buying a gun (s) for sometime now, and I don't know if it is wise for me to wait much longer. Also, I live in California, so if I want to buy a particular gun like an AK or something, would that be legal here? If I were to buy on the internet, would that be okay then?
As far as semi-auto rifles, the only AK that is legal (for now) is the Saiga rifle in .223, 7.62x39, or .308 which I give a big +1...affordable, robust, better accuracy that a lot of other AKs, IMO. They only come with 10-round mags but you could buy a handful of them...high caps are also available (though illegal). Also the newest version of the Ruger Mini-14 is also legal, I believe. They will cost you twice as much as the Saiga, but might be a little more politically correct, if that matters. They have been improved somewhat and shoot better than they used to, or so I have heard... Then there is the SKS...your choice: Chinese, Russian, Yugoslavian.

ShinyThings | 07-03-2008 05:11 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun I don't live in CA, but I know they(you) have pretty strict gun laws relative to other states. If you need one soon, I suggest getting a long gun (rifle or shotgun) as the restrictions are less. This is also true in WA state where I am. There is a waiting period for handguns, but not for long guns here. http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php ST

aybesee123 | 07-03-2008 05:41 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun I am in CA as well, try one of these on for size: http://big5sportinggoods.shoplocal.c...97337&offerid=

aybesee123 | 07-03-2008 05:44 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 1175335) As far as semi-auto rifles, the only AK that is legal (for now) is the Saiga rifle in .223, 7.62x39, or .308 which I give a big +1...affordable, robust, better accuracy that a lot of other AKs, IMO. They only come with 10-round mags but you could buy a handful of them...high caps are also available (though illegal). Also the newest version of the Ruger Mini-14 is also legal, I believe. They will cost you twice as much as the Saiga, but might be a little more politically correct, if that matters. They have been improved somewhat and shoot better than they used to, or so I have heard... Then there is the SKS...your choice: Chinese, Russian, Yugoslavian.
SKS, mini 14 and mini 30 as well as saiga are all legal in CA.

Irons | 07-03-2008 07:04 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Pump shotgun with a short barrel, 12 gauge.Almost no limits on the different types of ammo redily available to almost any market wherever you are and cheap. A big, fat barreled short shotgun will stop almost any fight before it happens. Anybody in front of it is going to get hit, and they know it.:smokin:

Merlin | 07-03-2008 07:24 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Quote:
Originally Posted by daveman (Post 1174386) Alright guys, I'm buying my first firearm ever to counter what maybe some ugly times ahead. What do I need to buy? I'm not a collector, I just want some good, solid, (cheap?) but quality guns that won't fail me when I pull the trigger and will sufficiently defend my family from intruders or bandits. Shotguns? Handguns? Rifles? Please give me a model number and price to take to my local gun dealer so I'll know what to ask for and if I'm getting ripped off. Thanks in advance. David
I too have advice for you. The gun range near here offers NRA sanctioned training for beginners. The range supplies the pistols; and during the course of three successive Wednesday evenings, I had the chance to shoot half a dozen different pistols, ranging from 22-caliber Ruger semi-automatic to 45-caliber revolvers. I wish I'd taken the class <<before>> I purchased my firearm. I'm quite sure I'd have made a different choice.

buff01 | 07-03-2008 07:34 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Why limit yourself to one? Anyway, you will need a handgun, regardless. Any GLOCK in 9mm that you like should work great.

65gt350 | 07-03-2008 09:28 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Quote:
Originally Posted by daveman (Post 1175288) Thanks for the replies, EVERYBODY. I'll be reading every post from top to bottom after work. Yes, I have never fired a projectile weapon before (unless you count those rubber band toy guns), so even the terminology is confusing. When you guys mention the caliber of the bullets, that number is in inches? And that refers to the width of the bullet or the length? How can one gun fire off two different sized bullets? What's the difference between a mag and a clip? Sorry for the noobness, but I have put off buying a gun (s) for sometime now, and I don't know if it is wise for me to wait much longer. Also, I live in California, so if I want to buy a particular gun like an AK or something, would that be legal here? If I were to buy on the internet, would that be okay then?
Daveman, Try a site like calguns.net they have a bunch of information for California gun owners. 65GT350

Au_Ag | 07-03-2008 10:12 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin (Post 1175555) I too have advice for you. The gun range near here offers NRA sanctioned training for beginners. The range supplies the pistols; and during the course of three successive Wednesday evenings, I had the chance to shoot half a dozen different pistols, ranging from 22-caliber Ruger semi-automatic to 45-caliber revolvers. I wish I'd taken the class <<before>> I purchased my firearm. I'm quite sure I'd have made a different choice.
great response by Merlin. Firearms owners normally have a strong tendency to recommend their personal favorites - which will often include a flavor of the month. (year/decade) I always recommend that a novice start with a Colt, S&W, Ruger or Taurus snubbie revolver in 38 special or .357. The reason I recommend a revolver ( double-action) to start - safety. Revolvers have no safety and are always treated as "hot" by newbies. Revolvers are easy to be totally certain that they are loaded or unloaded. When a novice unloads a revolver - they know it is unloaded and there is no question of forgetting a round in the chamber. While I know of no particular set of statistics to back it up - IMHO, there are fewer accidental discharges with a revolver than an auto. Further, under stress of a real-life incident - there can be no confusion of hunting safety, pushing on slide stop instead of safety, forgetting to chamber a round, etc. (most novices will not leave a gun "hot" with a round in the chamber - and will get confused under stress. A revolver is simple, easily understood and will be easy to function under stress. I have fired hundreds of thousands of pistol rounds on the range, practicing and as a competitor. It is sad to see the number of folks that will show up at the range, and fumble with their auto prior to firing. The revolver guys - never an issue. wife or girlfriend will also usually initially take to a revolver more readily. If you move forward with firearms and buy others, there will always be a use for a snubbie. I do not believe revolvers are more reliable, I prefer autos and have owned quite a variety of autos and revolvers over the decades. I used to trade them as a hobby. However, I keep a loaded snubbie hidden by the front door - if I go to the door, and don't know who it is - I hold the snubbie behind the door - if I know them, I slip it into a back pocket and they never know I answered the door with a gun in my hand. But I always recommend a revolver as a first gun.

TheGrayGhost | 07-03-2008 10:20 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Good Lord this place is awash in 'Glock-worshipers" To recommend a hadgun that has no external safety, and a reputation of dumbasses/newbies shooting themselves with no external safeties...The only logical conclusion that I can come to is GLOCK + bad STARTER GUN. i KNOW, I KNOW... ALL GOLCK OWNERS ARE AWESOME TACH-22 SECRET SERVICE AWESOME TRAINED UBER-HANDGUN COMMANDOS... aND THE ARGUMENT THAT REAL MEN DON'T NEED EXTERNAL SAFETIES.... aND bLAHHHHHH bLAHHHHHH BlAHHHHHH BUT TO RECOMMEND A HANDGUN WITHOUT AN EXTERNAL SAFETY IS IGNORANT, MISGUIDED, SHALOW, AND WRONG. BEGINNERS DO NOT NEED A FIREARM THAT HAS NO EXTERNAL SAFETY... PERIOD, I know, blah... blah... blah. TRUTH. DONE.

Irons | 07-03-2008 10:30 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGrayGhost (Post 1175810) Good Lord this place is awash in 'Glock-worshipers" To recommend a hadgun that has no external safety, and a reputation of dumbasses/newbies shooting themselves with no external safeties...The only logical conclusion that I can come to is GLOCK + bad STARTER GUN. i KNOW, I KNOW... ALL GOLCK OWNERS ARE AWESOME TACH-22 SECRET SERVICE AWESOME TRAINED UBER-HANDGUN COMMANDOS... aND THE ARGUMENT THAT REAL MEN DON'T NEED EXTERNAL SAFETIES.... aND bLAHHHHHH bLAHHHHHH BlAHHHHHH BUT TO RECOMMEND A HANDGUN WITHOUT AN EXTERNAL SAFETY IS IGNORANT, MISGUIDED, SHALOW, AND WRONG. BEGINNERS DO NOT NEED A FIREARM THAT HAS NO EXTERNAL SAFETY... PERIOD, I know, blah... blah... blah. TRUTH. DONE.
I don't like or own glocks for the reasons you pointed out and let me add one other. I will not own an automatic pistol that does not have an external hammer I cannot pull back with my thumb.

Au_Ag | 07-03-2008 10:39 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGrayGhost (Post 1175810) BUT TO RECOMMEND A HANDGUN WITHOUT AN EXTERNAL SAFETY IS IGNORANT, MISGUIDED, SHALOW, AND WRONG. BEGINNERS DO NOT NEED A FIREARM THAT HAS NO EXTERNAL SAFETY... PERIOD,
I beg to differ. IMHO, "safety" is an issue of gun handling. No quality firearm sold today will fire _unless the trigger is pulled_ In my further humble opinion - glocks and revolvers are inherently safer with newbies because they treat them with the respect they deserve. It is of course, a point that may be debated. But in no way, is it ignorant, misguided or wrong. Some may not agree. However, many police departments, state agencies, various entities approve and use glocks. They prize safety for their officers and the public higher than many other points. Further, glocks have just about taken over the "factory" 'limited" and various non-open class competitions. Of course, all of those people could be wrong - and you could be right - personally, I will vote with them.

electric-amish | 07-03-2008 11:37 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun I asked the same question 3 years ago. My experience was, 1st was a 12 Guage Remington 870. (Can't say it will not stop creatures) 2nd was a Smith and Wesson M&P 40. (Fits like a glove in my hand and very accurate) If I were starting all over My first would be a 9mm by a quality Manufacturer. I would go with the 9mm because of ammunition cost and recoil control for practice. To be very Frank if you can't shoot the 2000 dollar pistol it is a POS. Get something concealable with a good holster and shoot the *** out of it until you can hit what you aim at. I shoot a lot--Not crazy --but at least 100-150 rounds a week. Its not cheap so get a good pistol and shoot it up until you can hit what you want. Shooting a 9mm would have paid for my 40 by now with the extra cost of the 40 ammo. I am happy with my M&P but have had to work through some bugs. So recognize that all Guns have a different set of potential issues to be delt with. Glocks=No lead bullets with standard barrel--Baretta 92---long pull to get them going then smooth sailing. 1911s--Limited number of bullets compared to the Bad Guys gun of choice, ETC. Get a 9mm and shoot shoot shoot. If you can't find the time to shoot a lot and still want a hand gun I would recommend a Ruger GP100 357/38; ($500+-) Great revolver to keep loaded in the drawer for things that go bump in the night. Get the Spring Kit so its a smoother pull and its about perfect for the ignore it Gun. Just my 2 cents E-A

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SilverCity | 07-04-2008 01:26 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Quote:
Originally Posted by Au_Ag (Post 1175832) I beg to differ. IMHO, "safety" is an issue of gun handling. No quality firearm sold today will fire _unless the trigger is pulled_ In my further humble opinion - glocks and revolvers are inherently safer with newbies because they treat them with the respect they deserve. It is of course, a point that may be debated. But in no way, is it ignorant, misguided or wrong. Some may not agree. However, many police departments, state agencies, various entities approve and use glocks. They prize safety for their officers and the public higher than many other points. Further, glocks have just about taken over the "factory" 'limited" and various non-open class competitions. Of course, all of those people could be wrong - and you could be right - personally, I will vote with them.
+1 on the you-know-what...for all the reasons you stated. Regards, SC

dogear | 07-04-2008 02:53 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun I'd start out with a used Ruger 357magnum revolver with a 3"barrel and shoot 38special (ball for practice, hollow points for defense)....you'll hardly notice the recoil with 38s due to the gun's weight (357mag...expect some kick and has too much velocity for home defense, imho) and their built like a tank. Step up to a semi-auto pistol and get the simplest configuration....Glock is excellent....and try out different brands of self-defense ammo to find what the gun likes best (no failures to feed, etc)....reliability is paramount of course. Mossberg, Remington, Binelli and Winchester make some reliable and decently priced home defense pumps (18"-20" barrel). Be safe and get comfortable shooting from different positions and with either hand as well as both with the handguns and grip them firmly. Your local indoor range should have several different revolvers, pistols to rent so you can see what fits you best, plus instruction classes etc. Good luck.

extremist | 07-04-2008 04:56 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun The baseline list from "Life After Doomsday" (originally from Mel Tappan's book on survival guns) is very reasonable and general-purpose, but dated: 1) "Heavy" rifle: HK-91 (.308 / 7.62x51 NATO) 2) "Light" rifle: AR-180 (.223 / 5.56x45 NATO) 3) Shotgun: Remington 870 (12 ga.) 4) Pistol: Colt 1911 (.45 ACP) My personal update for modern times would be: 1) PTR-91 (good HK-91 clone, since genuine HKs are expensive and few). Alternatives might be a FAL, M1A, or AR-10. 2) AR-15 (Colt LE6920, Bushmaster XM15-E2S, etc.) 3) No change here! 4) Glock 19 (9mm) or 21 (.45 ACP) You can build a more comprehensive armory around such a bare-bones list. YMMV.

tanner12oz | 07-04-2008 08:38 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun based upon what i have read in a survival book (tappan on survival) right now you need a .45 semi and some type of AR...not sure the rules in cali on AR's

tanner12oz | 07-04-2008 08:42 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Quote:
Originally Posted by electric-amish (Post 1175905) I asked the same question 3 years ago. My experience was, 1st was a 12 Guage Remington 870. (Can't say it will not stop creatures) 2nd was a Smith and Wesson M&P 40. (Fits like a glove in my hand and very accurate) If I were starting all over My first would be a 9mm by a quality Manufacturer. I would go with the 9mm because of ammunition cost and recoil control for practice. To be very Frank if you can't shoot the 2000 dollar pistol it is a POS. Get something concealable with a good holster and shoot the *** out of it until you can hit what you aim at. I shoot a lot--Not crazy --but at least 100-150 rounds a week. Its not cheap so get a good pistol and shoot it up until you can hit what you want. Shooting a 9mm would have paid for my 40 by now with the extra cost of the 40 ammo. I am happy with my M&P but have had to work through some bugs. So recognize that all Guns have a different set of potential issues to be delt with. Glocks=No lead bullets with standard barrel--Baretta 92---long pull to get them going then smooth sailing. 1911s--Limited number of bullets compared to the Bad Guys gun of choice, ETC. Get a 9mm and shoot shoot shoot. If you can't find the time to shoot a lot and still want a hand gun I would recommend a Ruger GP100 357/38; ($500+-) Great revolver to keep loaded in the drawer for things that go bump in the night. Get the Spring Kit so its a smoother pull and its about perfect for the ignore it Gun. Just my 2 cents E-A
i have the m&p 9mm and i think its great....wonderful fit in my hand. didnt feel the same "glove" like feeling from the glock.

graspAU | 07-04-2008 08:43 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun I would recommend you pick up a good 22lr handgun and rifle (Used, you can probably get both for under $400). That's the only way you will be able to put in the dollars to have enough practice to become a good shot. 550 rounds is still under $12. If I practiced with a .45 or .223, I would be broke. A 22 is a great gun to learn and practice the fundamentals. Most new to guns think it's easy to point, shoot and hit what you want. The truth is it takes a lot of practice with sight picture, breathing, trigger pull, stance, etc. to become a reliable shot. If you play golf, it's the same process of having to put in all the hours to become accurate.

Flinch | 07-04-2008 11:16 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun HOOOOO BOY ! Golck guy say get glock, XD guy say XD, 1911 guy say get 1911 Here what Flinch think... Go find place where you can try before buy (Rent gun - No they do not let take gun home ! Do not ask how Flinch know this... ) You try Glock, You try XD You try 1911 You try revolver You try semi-auto Find gun YOU like. you buy gun , take home. Oh, you buy lots ammo too. You pratice lots. You find place do IDPA - "Google" it. Find same gun (or conversion kit) in .22. You buy lots ammo. You pratice more. You put away ammo for SHTF, 1,000 rounds per gun minimum. Now go have fun. :D

shades2 | 07-04-2008 11:22 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Quote:
Originally Posted by daveman (Post 1174386) Alright guys, I'm buying my first firearm ever to counter what maybe some ugly times ahead. What do I need to buy? I'm not a collector, I just want some good, solid, (cheap?) but quality guns that won't fail me when I pull the trigger and will sufficiently defend my family from intruders or bandits. Shotguns? Handguns? Rifles? Please give me a model number and price to take to my local gun dealer so I'll know what to ask for and if I'm getting ripped off. Thanks in advance. David
A good .22 bolt action. A second-hand .357SIG GLOCK or P226R in good condition. A second-hand Mossberg 590 or similar. YouTube - Shotgun Mossberg 590
YouTube - Shotgun Mossberg 590
This would be fun if you can afford one: YouTube - RFB CARBINE 308 bullpup rifle from kel-tec
YouTube - RFB CARBINE 308 bullpup rifle from kel-tec
Sure they hurt your shoulder, but imagine what they do to anything down-range.

Tn...Andy | 07-07-2008 06:44 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGrayGhost (Post 1175810) Good Lord this place is awash in 'Glock-worshipers" To recommend a hadgun that has no external safety, and a reputation of dumbasses/newbies shooting themselves with no external safeties...The only logical conclusion that I can come to is GLOCK + bad STARTER GUN. i KNOW, I KNOW... ALL GOLCK OWNERS ARE AWESOME TACH-22 SECRET SERVICE AWESOME TRAINED UBER-HANDGUN COMMANDOS... aND THE ARGUMENT THAT REAL MEN DON'T NEED EXTERNAL SAFETIES.... aND bLAHHHHHH bLAHHHHHH BlAHHHHHH BUT TO RECOMMEND A HANDGUN WITHOUT AN EXTERNAL SAFETY IS IGNORANT, MISGUIDED, SHALOW, AND WRONG. BEGINNERS DO NOT NEED A FIREARM THAT HAS NO EXTERNAL SAFETY... PERIOD, I know, blah... blah... blah. TRUTH. DONE.
Hmm...well, that pretty well cans any recommendation for a revolver, huh ?

SilverSalmon | 07-07-2008 07:03 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun I'm a newbie too and I've done a lot of research since my initial search. See the folllowing and of course, do you rown damn research don't listen to any of us. ;-) 1. hand guns - Go with the Glock 21 .45 ACP or Springfield XD .45 ACP. You really can't go wrong, the springfield is a gloclk on steroids. 2. Carbines - Go with a Ak-47 Cali legal, try Irvington arms or go to Calguns for advice. Also look at the SKS, although peple will tell you different. In Cali, the SKS is the better value, since you can't have detachable mags and etc. 3. Battle Rifle - Go with a M1A .308, enough said! 4. Shot gun - You'll hear Remington 870 or Mossberg 590 . Both are bad ass, but I would go with the Benelli Super Nova with Pistol grip, Get a extension tube to hold more rounds. 5. Curio & Relic - Buy an Mosin Nagant or M1 Garand, you won't be disappointed. I would go with the Garand and 30.06 cartridge, since you 'll have a .308, if you take my advice. Your enemey will have concealment but no cover. You'll be happy with both rounds. Hell the Nagant is cheap and you can afford it, get both if possible. 6. Plinking and rifle practice - Ruger 10/22. 7. Hand gun practice - Ruger Mark II .22 or soething else. Of the 5 and for the money, if I had to have three I would go: 1.Springfield XD .45 ACP 2. Moss berg 590. 3. M1A .308 or maybe the FaL, but go with the M1A. If you're looking cheaper go AR10 or Saiga .308. but the M1A will serve you well. goodluck

AceNZ | 07-07-2008 10:02 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun I'm surprised so many people are recommending large-caliber rifles, pistols and shotguns for a newbie. If you've never fired a gun before, as you said, do yourself and other shooters a favor and start with a good-quality .22 rifle (there are a lot of choices; the Ruger 10/22 is a decent choice). Learn gun safety, handling, cleaning, and how to aim and hit a stationary target first. Only after you're very comfortable with that, consider moving up to something bigger.

teedub31 | 07-08-2008 10:50 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Quote:
Originally Posted by AceNZ (Post 1179949) I'm surprised so many people are recommending large-caliber rifles, pistols and shotguns for a newbie. If you've never fired a gun before, as you said, do yourself and other shooters a favor and start with a good-quality .22 rifle (there are a lot of choices; the Ruger 10/22 is a decent choice). Learn gun safety, handling, cleaning, and how to aim and hit a stationary target first. Only after you're very comfortable with that, consider moving up to something bigger.
Probably the wisest advice yet!!

SilverSalmon | 07-08-2008 10:54 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun True, But couldn't he learn the basics on any type of gun? 10/22 or .308. Seems to me, you never know when SHTF, I'd rather be stuck with a .308 than a 10/22. At any rate everyone should invest in first rate training.

AceNZ | 07-08-2008 08:29 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSalmon (Post 1181801) But couldn't he learn the basics on any type of gun? 10/22 or .308. Seems to me, you never know when SHTF, I'd rather be stuck with a .308 than a 10/22.
Sure, it's possible to learn the basics with a .308. But it's a lot harder. I know more than one newbie who started out with a large-caliber rifle, and ended up hating shooting as a hobby: "too loud", "too hard to aim", "I never hit anything; what fun is that", "too expensive", "too much recoil", etc, etc. Plus, as another shooter, I really don't want to be around newbies carrying large-caliber guns. It gives me the creeps. Really. I'd rather be "stuck with" a small gun I knew how to use and had lots of experience with, than a bigger gun that I couldn't use to hit the side of a barn.

Black Blade | 07-08-2008 08:53 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Go with a cheap Hi-Point C9 to get used to firing a handgun. Then step up to a Glock as they are easy to pick up since they have no pesky safety. The for a rifle start cheap again with a Hi-Point 995 carbine and then later after you get into the sporting scene step up to a Weatherby 300 mag or better (Weatherby). shotguns are a toss up. Mossbergs and Remmingtons (12 Ga) are the working man's shotgun, but you can't go wrong with a Browning either. Anyway, on the "cheap" side you can get pistol, rifle and shotgun with ammo for under $1,000 if you really want to.

FireMattMillen | 07-08-2008 09:54 PM
Re: Help with FIRST gun Random...but what about an AK-47? It almost never has to be cleaned....if you fire one or two hundred rounds per month just to do the basics, an AK will probably not need cleaning. The large capacity mags make it a good defense weapon.

MOD1 | 07-09-2008 12:04 AM
Re: Help with FIRST gun For people new to firearms I like the idea of a .22 rimfire also. Is there a range nearby that offers firearm rentals and/or instruction? Take care, Mod1

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