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rad | 06-11-2009 06:47 PM
M16 manuals in PDF I was looking for a source for using iron sights on an AR10/15 and came up with these: M16 training manual http://www.ar15barrels.com/tech/FM23-9.pdf M16 technical manual http://www.ar15barrels.com/tech/TM9-1005-319-23.pdf

poor boy | 06-11-2009 07:08 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/TM9-1005-319-23.pdf

still afloat | 06-11-2009 07:51 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF HOW TO SHOOT YOUR M-16 AR15 IN COMBAT http://rapidshare.com/files/78972626...my_fm_23-9.zip Combat Training with the M16 http://rapidshare.com/files/78957745/FM_23-9.pdf M16 Manual http://rapidshare.com/files/79218318/m16a1ops.pdf

morganchaser | 06-11-2009 08:02 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF Quote:
Originally Posted by rad (Post 1765387) I was looking for a source for using iron sights on an AR10/15 and came up with these: M16 training manual http://www.ar15barrels.com/tech/FM23-9.pdf M16 technical manual http://www.ar15barrels.com/tech/TM9-1005-319-23.pdf
I know back before I owned guns I used to read old field manuals hoping to gain something, but when it came to firearms: It was all pretty self explainatory once I held one in my hands. Do you own an AR-15 or are you studying?

rad | 06-11-2009 10:26 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF I was shooting an DPMS 308 carbine and couldn't make sense of where the bullet was going, too high. So I assumed it was me and not the rifle and looked to see where I was supposed to be aiming (where the front post was supposed to be in the back circle). It actually isn't going close to where it should be going if I aim like it says in the manual. My other AR type rifles have optical sights (except for an extra stag 5.56 that I only shot a few times) so I haven't tried to use iron sights much. Thanks for the extra links guys.

goldgun | 06-11-2009 10:32 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF Quote:
Originally Posted by rad (Post 1765908) I was shooting an DPMS 308 carbine and couldn't make sense of where the bullet was going, too high. So I assumed it was me and not the rifle and looked to see where I was supposed to be aiming (where the front post was supposed to be in the back circle). It actually isn't going close to where it should be going if I aim like it says in the manual. My other AR type rifles have optical sights (except for an extra stag 5.56 that I only shot a few times) so I haven't tried to use iron sights much. Thanks for the extra links guys.
For survivalist types knowing how to use your BUIS correctly is important. The RDS can fail from falling up to EMP. Just remember that the front sight adjusts your elevation and the rear adjusts your windage during the zeroing process. The improved battle sight zero seems to be the best zeroing range right now. Do a google on it and you will learn how to zero with irons. You may also want to replace the front sight with a Trijicon night sight or put an ACOG on your rifle.

MOD1 | 06-11-2009 10:47 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF All sorts of manuals in PDF: http://www.scribd.com/search?cx=0078...sa=Search#1265 http://www.everyspec.com/specificati...sa=Search#1229 Take care, Mod1

rad | 06-11-2009 11:12 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF Quote:
Originally Posted by goldgun (Post 1765917) For survivalist types knowing how to use your BUIS correctly is important. The RDS can fail from falling up to EMP. Just remember that the front sight adjusts your elevation and the rear adjusts your windage during the zeroing process. The improved battle sight zero seems to be the best zeroing range right now. Do a google on it and you will learn how to zero with irons. You may also want to replace the front sight with a Trijicon night sight or put an ACOG on your rifle.
I'm sorry if I was unclear, the manuals are the result of a search which allowed me to determine the rifle sights are in the wrong place for elevation. I have to unscrew the front post too high to get the right elevation. I have an Eotech on my 5.56 stag carbine and a telescopic sight on my bull barrel DPMS 308. I have back up rifles with iron sights, just learning how to use them. I bought multiple sets of the small parts assortments but like to have whole rifles as well. There is nonelectronic optical sight on one of my PS90s and red dot on the second. Telescopic sights on the PTR91, AR50. The Eotech and one of the PS90's may be compromised by EMP if they are turned on when the big one drops.

rad | 06-11-2009 11:23 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF Quote:
Originally Posted by MOD1 (Post 1765936) All sorts of manuals in PDF: http://www.scribd.com/search?cx=0078...sa=Search#1265 http://www.everyspec.com/specificati...sa=Search#1229 Take care, Mod1
Thanks, wish I could find an armorers manual for PS90/P90 and Five-seveN. They only sell them to official people.

morganchaser | 06-11-2009 11:44 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF Quote:
Originally Posted by rad (Post 1765983) Thanks, wish I could find an armorers manual for PS90/P90 and Five-seveN. They only sell them to official people.
You have these guns? Lucky devil. I hear it's the one of the few handgun calibers you can still find for a reasonable price.

rad | 06-12-2009 12:20 AM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF 2 Attachment(s) I started with buying large caliber weapons but as I read about real world encounters I got interested in high power small caliber rounds. First rifle was an AR50 and last was a second PS90. 50 round standard magazine capacity and only 739/2000 rns last purchase. I bought 2 Five-seveNs also since I want to reload them hotter and may blow one up. Last I was at the gun store they had one of each, the pistol has gone from 900 to 1100 though. The 5-7's have 20 rnd clips with a 10 shot extension available. I keep the 5-7 loaded with a 20 and have 2 30 rnds close. Thats alot of bullets. 4 inch permanent wound cavity in pork with standard rnd fired from pistol http://fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=57 I just picked up another 6000 rnds of 5.56, those can be fired from keltec plr16 pistol and are still wicked powerful at 2400fps. Uses AR clips. Another favorite. They use the same caliber round and bullets up to 55 gr can be loaded into the 5.7 cases.

Awoke | 06-12-2009 06:51 AM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF You gonna eat that?

tulsamal | 06-12-2009 09:52 AM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF Compare that meat damage to what you would get with a .357 Magnum with 125 grain JHP's. Not only will the .357 do some amazing damage, it will do it with much deeper penetration as well. Gregg

JJ_ | 06-12-2009 10:36 AM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF Quote:
Originally Posted by Awoke (Post 1766326) You gonna eat that?
That was what I was thinkin:biggrin: hell w/ the gun cut out the bad fire up the grill :coolbeer:

rad | 06-12-2009 10:52 AM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF Quote:
Originally Posted by tulsamal (Post 1766488) Compare that meat damage to what you would get with a .357 Magnum with 125 grain JHP's. Not only will the .357 do some amazing damage, it will do it with much deeper penetration as well. Gregg
Round for round that is certainly a more powerful cartridge. I looked it up quick, for a corbon JHP 544 ft lbs muzzle energy. The SS195 used to make that hole has only 275. The advantages of the 5.7 are: the number of rounds 20 or 30 per clip vs 5 or 6. In real world encounters a large number of rounds miss their target so having many more rounds to put down field I think is more important. it will defeat soft body armor that the .357 Magnum won't, not watered down commercial ammo we are offered though. More interesting ammo at eliteammunition.com much more controllable for follow up shots. Same rounds can be used in the PS90 yielding 420 ft lbs, a personal defense weapon with 50 rnd mag. But if you carry a 357 I think that is a good choice for you. Just setting out why I like the 5.7. I borrowed the pics from the link, good use of the meat in my book though. The guy wanted to prove to himself the power of the round.

tulsamal | 06-12-2009 11:07 AM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF Quote:
the number of rounds 20 or 30 per clip vs 5 or 6. In real world encounters a large number of rounds miss their target so having many more rounds to put down field I think is more important.
Ah, but you don't have to use a revolver and have only 5 or 6 rounds. I bought a Glock 35 in .40 S&W. Then bought a Jarvis .357 SIG barrel for it. A 125 grain Gold Dot at 1450 fps. The magazine holds 15 rounds or 17 with a plus 2 baseplate. One in the chamber, that's 18 rounds. Throw in a couple of spare mags for 30-34 more. Sure, you have "even more" but diminishing returns kicks in here somewhere. Would you be willing to go to an even smaller and less powerful round if you could have a 100 round mag? Maybe that logic has some use in the military and/or with full auto weapons but not really for a civilian looking for his CCW choice. Quote:
But if you carry a 357 I think that is a good choice for you. Just setting out why I like the 5.7.
Neither actually. I carry a S&W M296 .44 Special. Five shots of CorBon 200 grain DPX bullets. A speed strip with five more. I guess you can see why the whole 5.7 in a handgun for self defense feels backwards to me! I would enjoy owning a 5.7 or two just because I like things that are different. And a PS90 would be fun to play with. But I would consider it to just be a fun range toy. If I was going to engage multiple bad guys, I would rather use my AR-15 in 6.8 or my FAL in 7.62 NATO. Or one of the AK's. Gregg

rad | 06-12-2009 12:35 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF Hi Gregg, I won't argue with your choice. I think there are reasons why the military has migrated to a smaller caliber cartridge, and the ruskies followed. I am interested in even smaller caliber, higher velocity weapons. There are just none readily available. The military experimented with hypervelocity flechettes and they have interesting effects. The shock wave from one of these small projectiles was strong enough to fracture the adjacent bone (goat leg target if I remember correctly, can't find link). I started with 45's and 40S&W and migrated to these smaller caliber higher capacity weapons. The PS90 is a lot of fun. I have been an a redneck shooting off my deck at a small pine I am going to cut down. The secret service carries them (P90) I've read. They were designed to replace the MP5 which is defeated by soft armor. Body armor is becoming much more common and it is nice to be able to punch through it. I am enough of a nut to give surplus vests to a couple of friends of mine last Xmas who I knew would appreciate them.

rad | 06-12-2009 02:05 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF 2 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by tulsamal (Post 1766488) Compare that meat damage to what you would get with a .357 Magnum with 125 grain JHP's. Not only will the .357 do some amazing damage, it will do it with much deeper penetration as well. Gregg
I am unable to copy and paste from this FBI article on handgun wounding factors and effectiveness. http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf To paraphrase pgs 7 and 8: Projectiles wound by penetration, temporary and permanent cavity formation and fragmentation. Temporary cavity formation is grossly overrated. Standard pistol rounds don't fragment sufficiently to cause fragmentation effects. Attached are wound descriptions for 357 magnum and .223 jacketed soft points, no hollow points but little difference as noted in text. The smaller .223 round produces a much larger permanent cavity as well as fragmentation effects. The 5.7 was not considered in the text (20 years old) but it clearly produced a 4 inch cavity like a rifle bullet fired when fired from a pistol. The fragmentation effects and vest penetration (level II vests can stop 357 mag) can be seen at: http://fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1502 That is a 10 cm permanent cavity for a 5.7 round vs. 1.8 cm for the 357 magnum JSP. Even with the increased penetration for the 357 the volume of tissue disrupted will be much greater due to the 10 cm vs. 1.8 cm permanent wound cavity. Volume is proportional to radius squared but only linearly related to length.

morganchaser | 06-12-2009 02:06 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/cbj/cbj_crtg.htm I'm looking at making some Nylon "cookie cutters" for my cz-82 to see if I can't push 9x18 to a reasonable speed. If I can't get some penetration out of this thing with sabots/ect. -> I'm thinking I'm just going to take the CZ-52 design and see if I can't make a modern version frame/barrel that uses the same slide. I want to fix the decocker, magazine capacity, thin chamber walls, and make it a DA while i'm at it.

rad | 06-12-2009 02:41 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1766839) http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/cbj/cbj_crtg.htm I'm looking at making some Nylon "cookie cutters" for my cz-82 to see if I can't push 9x18 to a reasonable speed. If I can't get some penetration out of this thing with sabots/ect. -> I'm thinking I'm just going to take the CZ-52 design and see if I can't make a modern version frame/barrel that uses the same slide. I want to fix the decocker, magazine capacity, thin chamber walls, and make it a DA while i'm at it.
I was not aware of that weapon/round. Very interesting. Be careful not to run afoul of your state law regarding armor piercing ammo, if there is one. It may be related to the hardness of the material in the round and/or velocity. Federal law here on p 50 http://www.lcav.org/content/ammunition_regulation.pdf

tulsamal | 06-12-2009 02:42 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF Quote:
Attached are wound descriptions for 357 magnum and .223 jacketed soft points, no hollow points but little difference as noted in text.
Regardless of what the text says, that flies in the face of a lot of other data. The 357 Magnum in 125 grain JHP was the gold standard for many police departments for about a decade. Very few PD's used soft points. I've handloaded both and JHP's are more reliable expanders. Look at HP design itself. The actual cavities just kept getting bigger. The ones that didn't expand well were the ones with tiny little cavities. Which would make them essentially..... soft points! Quote:
but it clearly produced a 4 inch cavity like a rifle bullet fired when fired from a pistol.
I don't think you can use the word "clearly" here. You are looking at a small piece of meat and comparing it to 10% ballistic gellatin. That's apples and oranges. Even IF the 5.7 produced a 4" permanent cavity, my contention is that it was be at a very shallow depth. Which leads to the exact types of failures that led to the FBI developing their 12"-14" of penetration standard. No matter how massive and destructive a surface wound looks, it has to get to the vital organs to matter. And you can't just consider a straight on chest shot with a t-shirt. You have to think about if they are turned away and the bullet goes through one arm before getting to the torso. You have to consider heavy clothing. You have to consider really large people, either heavily overweight or just super muscled from weight lifting in prison. The FBI requirement is tough. A lightly constructed small bullet at high velocity just isn't going to make it. Quote:
The secret service carries them (P90) I've read. They were designed to replace the MP5 which is defeated by soft armor. Body armor is becoming much more common and it is nice to be able to punch through it.
Yes, there is soft body armor that will stop 9mm. But it is the hardest to stop of the common handgun cartridges. Smaller diameter bullet and higher velocity. Now if you take that same smaller diameter bullet and push it 200 fps faster, you have the .357 SIG. Even harder to stop. Especially out of a handgun with a longer barrel like my G35 with 5.1" barrel. Yes, a totally top of the line max thickness vest will still stop it but anything less won't. And it isn't really fair to play up the AP performance of the 5.7 when civilians aren't allowed to buy the ammo which can actually do such a thing! With the standard commercial loads, I actually doubt it will penetrate a vest as well as a .357 SIG and probably will do worse! The Secret Service is a bit of a special case. There are agents who carry the P90. They were looking for something compact enough to be concealed under a jacket but with performance superior to a standard handgun. They wanted to be able to stop some guy wearing a vest who tries to just bull his way past them. Perhaps with a suicide bomb. The longer barrel of the P90 helps with that. So does full auto. And so does being able to use the actual milspec AP ammo. I don't get to buy the full auto or the good ammo! And finally, the actual question was about the 5.7 pistol and whether it made sense for civilian CCW. The Secret Service carries the P90 but I've never heard a word about them carrying a 5.7 pistol. The Air Marshals carry .357 SIG's along with a bunch of Texas LEO's. LEO's who want to be able to penetrate a car body and still take out the bad guys inside. In my case, I decided I wanted the penetration the FBI recommended. I wasn't willing to carry something the size of the G35 for daily carry. (It is in my bug out bag with a bunch of loaded mags.) And even after all my years of playing with autos, I still prefer revolvers when it comes to daily carry. So I feel good about my five rounds of DPX .44 Specials. I'm not a cop. I just need to be able to defend myself and my family up close and personal. As I said, I wouldn't mind owning a 5.7 pistol and PS90. But even if I owned the pistol, I can't see how I could justify it for CCW! Think of my literary gun heroes. Would Skeeter or Jordan or Keith carry a 5.7 pistol?! I bet they would if it was some kind of super stopper. But I don't think they would see it that way. Gregg

rad | 06-12-2009 03:16 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF Just presenting my case Gregg. I wouldn't want to get shot with either weapon. I am not arguing that a 357 isn't an effective weapon but that the 5.7 is as well and using the 357 mag as comparison. The ammo at the link: http://fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1502 is commercially available but is in short supply like other pistol ammo. The position of the cavities are visible in the gelatin. The ammo meets the 12-14" penetration standard if it doesn't have to go through a vest first, a level 2 vest which will stop a 357 magnum, by definition. II-A 9 mm FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) at ~1,090 fps (332 mps) .357 Magnum JSP (Jacketed Soft Point) at ~1,250 fps (~381 mps). Minimum Recommended... ...for the vast majority of threats encountered on the street, though you would sustain more blunt trauma injury than Level II or III-A. The thinnest and best for concealability and comfort. II 9 mm FMJ, at ~1,175 fps (~358 mps) .357 JSP at ~ 1,395 fps (~425 mps). A great balance... ...between blunt trauma protection, versus cost, and thickness / comfort / concealability. Handles the blunt trauma of higher velocity +P rounds better. What we recommend most often for concealable wear. III-A 9 mm FMJ at ~1,400 fps (~427 mps) (e.g., sub-machine-gun velocity) .44 Magnum Lead Semi-Wadcutter at ~1,400 fps (~427 mps). The highest blunt trauma protection rating in soft body armor. The best for very high-risk situations to cover more of the uncommon or unusual threats. Minimizes blunt trauma injury to allow more effective return fire. From bulletproofME.com

still afloat | 06-12-2009 08:27 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF Another good source of manuals in pdf form is http://stevespages.com/page7b.htm

tulsamal | 06-13-2009 01:11 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF Under the III-A vest rating it says: Quote:
9 mm FMJ at ~1,400 fps (~427 mps) (e.g., sub-machine-gun velocity)
It's important to note that this velocity is easily reached by .357 SIG. Out of my 5.1" barrel, most ammo is going over 1500 fps. That's with a slightly heavier 125 grain bullet. (Most common in 9mm is 115 grain.) The Texas LEO's using this round know what they are doing! Quote:
44 Magnum Lead Semi-Wadcutter at ~1,400 fps
I like .44's and I carry one. And I might use a load like that for a deer or elk. But I'm not walking around with a heavy gun like it would take for that full bore .44 Magnum load! Talk about slow follow up shots! Not to mention grievous overpenetration of any kind of normal target. I don't care about blunt trauma. I would rather punch right on through and then expand inside the target! The cheap solution for a handgun that will go through a vest is 7.62x25 Tok. I paid less than $200 for my CZ52 and the cheap surplus ammo will go through any and all models of soft vests out there. If only you could buy a modern long barrel semi-auto in the caliber, I would be first in line. Something like the Glock 35. Long barrel, adjustable sights, decent trigger, high capacity magazine. Put a Gold Dot bullet in there at maximum pressure and you would have an amazing gun. Gregg

rad | 06-13-2009 08:09 PM
Re: M16 manuals in PDF Yes a level IIIA vest is required to stop a 357 SIG. The 7.62x25 Tok isn't in the NIJ standard and from the scuttlebut on the web defeats armor.

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