Rifles
 

I caved and bought a Bushmaster M4 (scope ready) with flipdown iron sights. Its just a .223 caliber so i was thinking of something larger for hunting and what if scanario's. Does anybody have any strong views on .308 vs .30-.06?

I know weird first post but in my own defense i used to have a screen name on here but i had it deleted. BUUUT im back. I have one more question im asking in a seperate post.

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For .308, the SOCOM is a nice rifle. They are even legal in California because they don't have a 'pistol grip.'

http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=29

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The Bushmaster is an excellent choice for people who need scopes (like me), as no other military rifle is as well suited for them. If you don't need scopes don't use them on military rifles because they slow target aquisition.

308 and 30-06 are both good. 308 is a more modern design and I would choose it over the long 30-06 which was designed for blackpowder.

Military rifles in 30 caliber were not designed for scope mounting and attempting to do so is somewhat of an abomination. An exception is AR flattop based 308 rifles, unfortunately they are expensive and heavy.
Most bang for you buck in those would be an Eagle lower with an Armalite upper.

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Thinking of buying an AK or a semiautomatic of equal or greater firepower myself; heard Vector was a good manufacturer, what do you think?

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The 30-06 was NOT designed for black powder!
You generally get more velocity from a 30-06 over the 308 and can use a heavier bullet ( up to 220 gr).

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Plus every country store has boxes of 30.06 on the shelf.

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.30-06 and .308 are both good rounds. You'll have an easier time finding AP with the .30-06.

Vector builds a fine AK, whether you're looking for a milled or stamped gun.

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The rounds are very similar with the 30-06 being a couple of hundred fps hotter. The con here is more recoil, especially with heavier bullets. The 308 probably has better accuracy potential and the ammo is more common.

I wouldn't take either round to a bear hunt but both are sufficient for any other game in North America.

I would give the nod to 308, but not by a bunch.

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As stated by another poster, both are good rounds and have their supporters.

One thing I have yet to see mentioned, technically speaking the .308 is capable of better accuracy due to the shoulder angle allowing more consisent headspace.

The .308 also is available in short actions, due to overall length being shorter.

It all depends on your intended usage - hunting or as a personal weapon.

The .308 is available in a quite wide range of battle rifles. Not so, the 30.06.

However, if you're going for moose or elk, take a 30.06 - without question.

IMHO, the .308 wins for battle rifle, the 30.06 for large game.

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I'm a fan of the 308/7.62MM, but, if I were just starting I would go with the '06 for hunting.

Why?

'06 surplus ammo is still avialable in quantity for around 25 cents per. 7.62MM is relatively scarce and at least twice the price. If you're going with commercial hunting ammo, it's a mute point, they're both available at the same price (75 cents + per).

Hunting assumes no need for high volume fire (magazine, auto loader). If you can use irons, it's hard to beat a Garand anyway.

I'm no fan of commie guns, but the steal of gun deals right now is the AK 74 and 5.45 ammo. Ammo is under 11 cents per round shipped, the rifles are 285 plus shipping/transfer. Mags are cheap, under 10 bucks. Of course, the AK is somewhat less than a target rifle, and the 5.45 is no where near a '06/308, but it's better than the 5.56, very accurate and good terminal ballistics at 200 yards or less, which is more than is practical for most of us.

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Thanks for the info. What make are these rifles at that price?

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Wanna buy a little over 400 rounds of lake city .30-06 1970's mil surp at 20 cents a round? I'll accept silver for payment :bull-buddy-icon: PM if interested.


I'd say go with .308, its a good round, .30-06 is fun but man I'm sore after shooting mine. Thats why its in the gun shop on consignment now :tongue_ma: The next gun I'll get is either an FAL or an HK91 clone.

AK's are still awesome though :D

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Romanian, usually, Century brings them in/builds them I think. They're basically WASR-10's in 5.45. They're selling out fast, too, so get one while you can.

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What if? 223 is nato and used in real wars, I have a 223, 7.62. 308 and a 06, all have a place. Been shooting and loading the 06 since 67, greatttttttt gun and loads from 90 grains to 220, very versatile and accurate.

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lots of you are hinting at what famed commie insurgent che guevarra said, namely that the insurgent carried a rifle chambered the same as the standing army, so he can get easy ammo resupply

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If I come across a ton of .223 ammo thats mine for the taking, chances are there will be plenty of .223 rifles lying nearby :rolleyes_m:

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Jonesie: I'll take 400 at 20c ea. $80FRNS is $8 face in 90%?

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Since you have a Bushmaster lower, look at the caliber choices you have for uppers for your AR-15. (7.62x39, 204 Ruger, 50 Beowulf, 6.5 Grendal, 50 BMG) I'm sure theres more. :s9:

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If you like your Bushmaster M4, and aren't in CA, an AR-10 is the way to go. The lower receivers share many parts, more accessories available than for any other semi-auto rifle, integral scope mount rail, better ergonomics for scope use than the M1a, way ahead of the FAL for scoped use and accuracy, versatile, the only rifle that swaps barreled upper receivers in 10 secs and keeps sub moa accuracy.

A .308 will kill any game animal on earth. If Karamojo Bell could kill elephants with a 7mm Mauser, then a .308 loaded with a premium 180 gr bullet will do the trick.

The AR-10 is superior to any bolt rifle in terms of sustained fire longevity. It is designed for defensive use, which means the barrel will not deteriorate markedly from sustained shooting episodes. The Armalite Chrome-lined barrels are pretty long-lived. An AR-10 will shoot with the best out-of-the box bolt guns, so you give up nothing in terms of accuracy. An AR-10 will not chew up brass the way some (HK) rifles do.

One other option for you to consider is adding a 6.8SPC or 6.5Grendel upper for your BM. Either round is very effective for defensive use, just the ammo is a bit harder to find. Another option is to begin handloading your .223 ammunition and use Sierra 77gr bullets. They will load to standard magazine length and provide substantial impact power. Consider that an 80gr bullet is about optimum for a .243Win. Being able to fire thirty 77gr bullets at 2700FPS can really make your day. Of course, your BM barrel is likely a 1:9 twist, not always favoable to a heavy .224 bullet, but you could try some Black Hills Match ammo and see your results.

Interestingly, Sierra and Hornady both use very thick jackets for the competition bullets, so they are tougher than most hunting bullets. When the game rules no longer apply, you could take elk with a .223 w/77gr Matchkings. Unlikely you will fare as well in a fight where you need to expend a quantity of ammuntition, if you have a bolt action .30-06. Under survival conditions, I could make do with a .223 for hunting, but doubt I could expect to prevail in a defensive situation with a bolt rifle.

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This is my newest gun.

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I find that telescopic stocks and scopes don't mix well on AR's. I want my face to land in the same place every time for proper eye relief.

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I reload for the 30-06... The ballistics compaired to the 308 are better... The same grain bullet of the 30-06 will shoot faster and flatter compaired to the the .308.. IF size of the rifle is not an issue, go with the 30-06... But either will do exactly what you want.. Who takes 400yrd shots anyways..

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I like the new .30 TC -- a shortened .308 case, yet more velocity and energy than .30-06 (100-200 fps), with less recoil. At first I thought this was physically impossible, but apparently they do it by choosing just the right primer and propellant for optimized burn rate and lessened mass of expelled gases. Unfortunately, this magic will work only for the particular bullet types and weights that were found through much trial & error, so it seems reloaders will be hard pressed even to match factory offerings.

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Is there a better semiautomatic than the AK47 that is reasonably priced and has widespread ammo availability, or would the Vector AK be the one to get if I was to come into some money?

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100,000,000+ AK47's can't be wrong :bull-buddy-icon:

To answer your question, I don't really think so. AR-15's are popular in the U.S. though.

However, I wouldn't want to spend $1200 on one though. For that price, I could get an AK47, 12 magazines, a tactical vest to carry them with, a level IIIA bulletproof vest and a level IV in-conjunction ceramic plate, and 1,000 rounds of ammo. Maybe enough leftover for a burger and fries, too :D

Also: You can make AK receivers yourself for the most part. Parts kits are still available with barrels and matching bolt carrier and all that. Buy them while you can, though.

I don't know if spending more money on an AK will really deliver "better" perfomance, its still just a military rifle designed to function reliably and deliver a high volume of fire easily within ordinary combat ranges (300 meters). If we're going to get all technical and say "what if" *enter scenario options here* then I don't want to have that discussion, too many variables I'm not interested in thinking about. My WASR-10 and SAR-1 both cycle lead fine and I'll never give them up!

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Depends on how you spend those AK bucks. Veprs cost more, especially now, than entry level AK's but they're the most accurate out there. Some are better built than others. The SAR's were a pretty good starter AK in their time, as long as you could avoid the canted sights and gas blocks. The WASR's I have to take on a case by case basis, they aren't "real AK's" so they have a higher incidence of either being built by drunken monkeys or reliability issues. I haven't met one yet with a trigger that compares well, but if you've got a good WASR with a G2 or similar fcg then they're fine. Honestly right now for the price I'd tighten my belt a little and spring the extra $200 or so for a Vector or Lancaster Consulting.

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Hey Rev, you wouldn't by chance own a FAL or a CETME would you?
I think that either one of those will be my next purchase. Your thoughts?

After that, I need to get a .223 what do you think of either of these?
(Daewoo K2 or Galil) Overpriced right now, or worth it?

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I like the SAM7 by Arsenal Inc. in Las Vegas.

http://www.arsenalinc.com/

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http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/sam7.pdf

They forge each reciever and CNC mill it, including the hammer, trigger and disconnector, so everything is made to exacting tolerances. I think you could trust a rifle that well designed and made.

Recommended retail is around $700, so they aren't incredibly cheap, but as with many things, you get what you pay for.

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Don't own either right now but I'm well familiar with both. Sukhoi Fan has reported that some people have had problems with the HK 91/G3/CETME-type roller locking actions rusting up and that sort of thing. I've never known that to be the case so it might be environmental(he mentioned S. America, iirc). Otherwise they are robust and functional. One other downside to this family of rifles, it's got something to do with the way they use recoil, they don't like to bumpfire.

The FAL on the other hand is an all around mighty fine weapon. If you're after a .308 autoloader they'll serve well under pretty much any conditions and I've always liked their ergo's. The magazines rock into place which AR guys don't seem to like too much because they think it's slower. I haven't found that to be the case but I do appreciate the postive locking and great strength of this setup. The AK also rocks into place.

If there are any marks against the FAL I would say they would lie in two areas. The first is the recoil spring in the buttstock which makes altering the stock or adding a folder needlessly difficult. There is the para kit for adding a folding stock, it's a real military part and you'll pay for it but they seem to work well. The other is just that there's a lot of weird little parts in odd places, like how the handgaurds are held on. This doesn't effect the operating mechanism at all which is composed primarily of a few large parts. A good FAL is a 400 or 500 yard rifle and you can squeeze a little more accuracy out of them by shutting off the adjustable gas system and cycling by hand, this means less reciprocating mass(which aids reliability in semi auto mode) for a steadier shot.

All in all I probably lean more toward the FAL than the CETME.

After that, I need to get a .223 what do you think of either of these?
(Daewoo K2 or Galil) Overpriced right now, or worth it?[/quote]

Daewoo's are one of the nicest 5.56x45 rifles you can get. As I'm sure you know they were designed with the best features of the AK and the AR platforms. I've only very rarely got to see or play with one though, seem to be kind of scarce. They use AR mags, which is a plus or minus depending on how you look at it. I don't generally like these magazines, I'm spoiled by AK mags, but the 20 rounders work well and there are some high priced "high reliability" mags made now that are said to be quite an improvement over the standard aluminum 30 rounder. Even those run good enough, for the most part. Just have a bunch, expect dammage and try not to treat them too rough. You might look into an AR-180 as it uses a real gas system and AR mags and is generally cheaper than a Daewoo.

A Galil is just an Israeli-bred Valmet. The Valmet is a fine weapon. I would love to be able to get my hands on a Sako RK 95 in this country, but our politicians are evil and retarded. I've considered building my own. Anyway, a Valmet is just a Suomi-bred AK. If you want a Galil I'd say get an AK instead. If you get an AK I'd say take a look at 5.45x39 or 7.62x39 first. The 5.56x45 isn't a tapered case and consequently 5.56x45 AK's have had some extraction problems from time to time.

The rifle that really has my attention right now is the Rob Arms XCR. I don't care about the "vapor ware" or product support for discontinued rifles lore. What I care about is whether or not the gun's any good and the XCR seems to be very good thus far. The multicaliber feature makes it a no-brainer, especially with 7.62x39 kits in the future. I'd seriously like to get one of these and whatever spare parts I want.

Arsenal Inc made some fine AK's, they were on my list. Unfortunately they hate making milled AK's for some reason. I'd still pick one up if I could find one, otherwise I'm considering a Vector milled or building up a TFL milled reciever, probably the sidefolder.

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The best FALs are built by DS Arms of Illinois. Hands down. Dont piss around with other junk. This guy has for decades been buying up parts kits all over Europe and South America, importing them, and building them on American receivers built with high quality standards in mind. Also he has an improved gas piston system that his old gunsmith developed for him which is fantastic. It is a quality shop with a fantastic product. I have a couple rifles put together in his shop and both are tits.

The only good thing I will say about the Israelis guns is that they have a really cool peep sight for FALs. . Other than that its all copycat stuff. Like Rev said the Valmet is the pinnacle of AK development and the Galil is a knockoff.

The practical accuracy I have with the FAL I got from DS arms is stunning out to 500 yards. Past that I'd want the Springfield M1A which is a M14 types. I mean my 22 is good too (I mean the AR) but dont you want a 308? Of course you do. SO Why dont I hear you guys ever discuss that fantastic weapon? I hear they are much in demand in the middle east.

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Look at these flaming rounds...:D

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The M-14 is a very nice .308. Unfortunately Springfield quality is hit or miss at best and our politicians saw to it that our semi-auto military M-14's are either being used by disreputable people like Hatians or have been chopped up into scrap. Thank Clinton for that one. There are a few smaller builders out there making a good rifle, I've had my eye on LRB. I guess what stops me is the .308 just doesn't currently fit into any practical role for me given my environment and requirements. Still a great generalist round and rifle, though.

DSA does make great FAL's. That reminded me of something. I'd opt for the milspec barrel instead of the medium contour or anything else, lighter and balances better. Likewise I'd avoid a match chamber, reliability is a little more important than even accuracy in a fighting rifle.

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http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/204/ricecompqr1.jpg

One of my babies :D

Sure, it scores around 3MOA, but with a Norinco drum, one of those 75 is bound to hit something. If you're ever in a situation where the AK has to come out, its probably of no consequence anyhow. (What the bullets that don't hit the target do, that is) :rolleyes_m:

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Jones, is that an AR or something else?

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$280 WASR-10, 7.62x39, its not an assault weapon under the assault weapon ban (which some states still have) if thats what you're asking. If you're asking if its an AR-15 type weapon, then scroll up, someone posted a picture of their AR-15 earlier.

Kobra holosight was $180, furniture $120 all together, and the bipod and grip were cheap. Drum is pre-ban, and ran me $125. I think it used to be a low-cap that had the magwell worked on. It works fine, field stripping is a little trickey though, as the bolt carrier sticks when you try to pull it off.

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[/QUOTE]
Thanks Rev! Great and informative post.....as usual.

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youre taking me out of my depth rev....

I got a congo barrel, its like sixteen inches. accuracy is good, I wouldnt be able to tell the diff between it and another two inches. that is my rifle that is. now if we are talking "My gun" that is the "long barrel" version and every inch counts :D

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I think I found your "gun" right here:

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ha, you sayin I got peyronie's disease? :applause_

nah thats a sturmgewehr 44, they made it to shoot round corners. not screw round em

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Dont get me wrong I like almost all rifles (of quality) and callibers. .223 is small but i would prefer it over MOST handguns. 308 is my favorite round i almost bought dpms .308 semi auto but it had 16" barell - loud as hell and not as acurate as i would have liked (ill stick to remington 700).

I never thought i would buy an ar-15 type gun. Always criticized them etc. But i absolutely fell in love with the bushmaster M4A2. Also my thinking is if democrats keep control of current seats + president that ban is coming right back. A nice way to double your money.

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If I get a nice Sako in the next couple of years, it will be chambered in .338 Lapua. I like bolt actions anyway. Cost of a scope worth attaching to such a rifle might be quite high.