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- - My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=214796)

SilverCity | 12-21-2007 02:15 PM
My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. 5 Attachment(s) Glock 20 in 10mm...no surprise. Holds 15+1 rounds of serious firepower...:applause_ Easy caliber conversions...357 Sig and .40 with JUST AN EXTRA BARREL.:applause_ Uses factory 10mm mags for ALL calibers above...:applause_ Serious performance with Double Tap loads...:applause_ Caliber : 10mm Bullet : 200gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Beartooth Ballistics : 1300fps/ 750 ft./lbs. - Glock 20 Glock 29 - 1240fps Box of 50rds. http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...hp?cPath=21_25 You can even build you a LONG SLIDE 6 inch...:D What do y'all think?

REV127 | 12-21-2007 02:34 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. 10mm is a good round and deserved a lot wider success than it got. 10mm should be sitting where .40sw is, except FBI shooters are too limpwristed to handle a full power cartridge and too egotistical to admit that when a .38 snubbie ended the fight, it wasn't the fault of their guns. That's not how things worked out and as it stands I'm a bit more interested in the .357 Sig. That actually makes the Glock 20 that much more attractive to me as long as it feeds well since the potential is there to switch back and forth between the calibers. Hey, do you have a 10mm Glock mag handy? If you do could you try an experiment for me? Just see if a 7.62x25 cartridge will fit in the mag, don't try to insert the mag into a pistol or chamber a round, just see if the cartridge fits. From what I've seen the overall cartridge length should be close and I'm hoping there is enough extra length in the mag to hold the Tokarev rounds. 7.62x25 is the same rough diameter as 9x19 and 9mm will feed from a .40sw mag and obviously 10mm is the same diameter as .40sw. It would require a custom barrel and slide but if the rounds fit it would be possible to use a Glock 20 as a frame for a double stack 7.62x25 combat auto. I'm pretty sure you could just modify the 10mm slide by creating a sort of breach plug that fits into a dovetail cut into the breachface. I've seen aftermarket .22lr conversion kits for the Glock 17. if there's one that fits the Glock 20 you'd have a real solid contender for the title there. I do think it would be hard to dethrone the Medusa though, even though it's a revolver and not an auto. It'll shoot 9x19mm, .380, .38 special and .357 magnum all interchangeably plus a whole bunch of other oddball rimmed and rimless cartridges with the same or nearly same diameter. It's a scrounger's dream.

SilverCity | 12-21-2007 02:38 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 885303) 10mm is a good round and deserved a lot wider success than it got. 10mm should be sitting where .40sw is, except FBI shooters are too limpwristed to handle a full power cartridge and too egotistical to admit that when a .38 snubbie ended the fight, it wasn't the fault of their guns. That's not how things worked out and as it stands I'm a bit more interested in the .357 Sig. That actually makes the Glock 20 that much more attractive to me as long as it feeds well since the potential is there to switch back and forth between the calibers. Hey, do you have a 10mm Glock mag handy? If you do could you try an experiment for me? Just see if a 7.62x25 cartridge will fit in the mag, don't try to insert the mag into a pistol or chamber a round, just see if the cartridge fits. From what I've seen the overall cartridge length should be close and I'm hoping there is enough extra length in the mag to hold the Tokarev rounds. 7.62x25 is the same rough diameter as 9x19 and 9mm will feed from a .40sw mag and obviously 10mm is the same diameter as .40sw. It would require a custom barrel and slide but if the rounds fit it would be possible to use a Glock 20 as a frame for a double stack 7.62x25 combat auto. I'm pretty sure you could just modify the 10mm slide by creating a sort of breach plug that fits into a dovetail cut into the breachface. I've seen aftermarket .22lr conversion kits for the Glock 17. if there's one that fits the Glock 20 you'd have a real solid contender for the title there. I do think it would be hard to dethrone the Medusa though, even though it's a revolver and not an auto. It'll shoot 9x19mm, .380, .38 special and .357 magnum all interchangeably plus a whole bunch of other oddball rimmed and rimless cartridges with the same or nearly same diameter. It's a scrounger's dream.
Sorry, Rev...don't have any x25...sounds like an interesting project, though.

wallew | 12-22-2007 01:12 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Rev, I've sent an email to Lone Wolf Distributors about if they would be willing to cut a 7.62x25 barrel to fit a Glock 20. As SC says, with all the other barrels available, by adding the 7.62x25 you would literally have a kick butt pistol that's reliable all day long. I'll let you know their response. Feel free to add your two cents by ALSO sending them an email via their contact form. http://www.lonewolfdist.com/contact.aspx

<SLV> | 12-22-2007 01:25 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 886554) Rev, I've sent an email to Lone Wolf Distributors about if they would be willing to cut a 7.62x25 barrel to fit a Glock 20. As SC says, with all the other barrels available, by adding the 7.62x25 you would literally have a kick butt pistol that's reliable all day long. I'll let you know their response. Feel free to add your two cents by ALSO sending them an email via their contact form. http://www.lonewolfdist.com/contact.aspx
Please let us know how they respond! It would be great to have a modern option in 7.62x25. Now if only Federal would make some HP ammo for it...

electric-amish | 12-22-2007 02:24 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 885303) except FBI shooters are too limpwristed to handle a full power cartridge and too egotistical to admit that when a .38 snubbie ended the fight, it wasn't the fault of their guns. .
Is there a specific fight you are refering to? I have heard there was a big Gun fight that began the 10mm-40cal and would appreciate some link or info with details. Thanks E-A

SilverCity | 12-22-2007 02:31 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Quote:
Originally Posted by electric-amish (Post 886650) Is there a specific fight you are refering to? I have heard there was a big Gun fight that began the 10mm-40cal and would appreciate some link or info with details. Thanks E-A
REV might be referring to the infamous 1986 FBI shootout in Miami: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fbi_miami_shootout

REV127 | 12-22-2007 07:13 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 886554) Rev, I've sent an email to Lone Wolf Distributors about if they would be willing to cut a 7.62x25 barrel to fit a Glock 20. As SC says, with all the other barrels available, by adding the 7.62x25 you would literally have a kick butt pistol that's reliable all day long. I'll let you know their response. Feel free to add your two cents by ALSO sending them an email via their contact form. http://www.lonewolfdist.com/contact.aspx
Awesome idea Wallew! 7.62x25 has an overall cartridge length of 34mm and 10mm has a length of 32mm so it's really darn close. If we have the barrel we can make everything else work. I don't own a .40 or 10mm at the momment, anybody have one of those and a 9x19mm round to see how it fits in the breach and extractor? It might not be necessary to make a dovetail breachface for it if the fit is close enough.

SilverCity | 12-22-2007 07:34 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. 1 Attachment(s) OOps, I forgot one...9x25 Dillion The 9X25 is a high performance cartridge based on the 10mm. It fires a 9mm bullet at rifle velocities! Flat shooting and hard hitting! Caliber : 9X25 Bullet : 125gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP Ballistics : 1700fps / 803 ft.lbs Not sure if LWD makes a barrel...

money matters | 12-23-2007 06:03 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Accurized Colt's Government Model 1911a1 .45acp. With extra 28lb springs for .45 Super ammunition and .22LR conversion kit. You want exotic? Maybe go with .460Rowland or .400 Cor-Bon conversion kits, maybe a spare slide and barrel for .38 Super?

Prometheus | 12-23-2007 07:57 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. I really like the 10mm... my problem is I don't like gLocks especially the G20... things is too big for even my hand! and others 10mm's are IMO lacking. As it stands I have choosen 9mm for my shtf pistol caliber. Argue semantics all day long but compared to the 40 or 45 they all break down to roughly the same stopping power -Newtons 2nd law, double the mass double the energy; double the speed, quadrupile the energy. Sure I have a 1911 and a HK in 45 but I'm also a collector ;) A 10mm in an XD would be great.. should finances allow I'd like to get a couple of FN 5.7's and PS90's... that'd make a nice combo. For now the 92fs' and XD9's go along withe Uzi's and it makes practice cheap too.

electric-amish | 12-23-2007 08:08 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 886655) REV might be referring to the infamous 1986 FBI shootout in Miami: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
Read that whole thing. Its hard to keep the players straight. Lesson learned--Mini 30 rocks multiple attackers with pistols and shot gun. Semi automatic rifle with high capacity mags rule the day until injury and fear take their toll. I heard the Mini-30 was a junky thing, apparently it gets the job done well enough to start new caliber search for FBI. E-A

GoldWampum | 12-23-2007 08:11 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus (Post 887966) I really like the 10mm... my problem is I don't like gLocks especially the G20... things is too big for even my hand! and others 10mm's are IMO lacking. As it stands I have choosen 9mm for my shtf pistol caliber. Argue semantics all day long but compared to the 40 or 45 they all break down to roughly the same stopping power -Newtons 2nd law, double the mass double the energy; double the speed, quadrupile the energy. Sure I have a 1911 and a HK in 45 but I'm also a collector ;) A 10mm in an XD would be great.. should finances allow I'd like to get a couple of FN 5.7's and PS90's... that'd make a nice combo. For now the 92fs' and XD9's go along withe Uzi's and it makes practice cheap too.
I've got an XD40 and my son in law has an XD9. Both great handguns. They fit like a glove. Also like the additional handgrip safety, visible chamber indicator and fire pin indicator. A quick look tells me if I'm chambered and cocked.

Kahlil Gibran | 12-23-2007 09:49 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 886655) REV might be referring to the infamous 1986 FBI shootout in Miami: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
Conclusions Dr. Anderson concludes his forensic analysis of the gunfight by pointing out the remarkable accuracy of the FBI agents in achieving solids hit on both Platt and Matix, despite the fact that the suspects were obscured by deep shade, dust and gunsmoke. He provides specific examples of accurate shooting by five of the eight Agents involved: Grogan, McNeill, Dove, Risner and possibly Orrantia. He also points out the ability of several of the people involved in the shoot-out, both suspects and FBI Agents, to continue to perform both physically and mentally through sheer willpower after having sustained severe gunshot wound trauma, and provides specific examples of determination on both sides.

kolya | 12-23-2007 10:09 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Give me 8+1 in 45ACP coming out of a 1911. The 1911 has been around since forever. Large support group, tons of companies making parts and 45ACP is more widely available. I think 10mm is an awesome caliber but ultimately skill is going to win over caliber superiority and unless you reload or are rich you wont be able to put in the range time with the 10mm. Also ball ammo in 45 will work just fine, try saying that about 10mm. But to each his own.

REV127 | 12-23-2007 11:29 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Quote:
Originally Posted by kolya (Post 888109) Also ball ammo in 45 will work just fine, try saying that about 10mm. But to each his own.
You are operating on bad info.

money matters | 12-24-2007 03:30 AM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Ol' Rev still thinks the 7.62x39 is suitable for elk. Lots of magazine readers and enthusiasts want to validate their choices of pip-squeek rounds that depend on expensive ammunition performing in gellatin or penetrating pine boards but have little flexibility or power. In the real world, there is always the chance of extenuating circumstances which can thwart the "tested effectiveness" of that 40cal and smaller pistol round from saving your ass. There is no substitute for a large diameter bullet weighing 200gr or more when it comes to stopping a human being. A .44 magnum revolver or Desert Eagle is also a dependable "ultimate" handgun. A .45Colt double action revolver would also be very reliable. The DA handgun offers ammunition versatility beyond any automatic save the specialty jobs that fire rimmed magnum ammunition, namely the Desert Eagle. But maybe the "ultimate" pistol is the tiniest hideout gun you can put in someone's ear... A pistol is a last resort weapon. An accurate, powerful, and versatile rifle is superior in every instance. If the way to win a knife fight is to bring a handgun; much better to be in possession of a rifle rather than any pistol when tshtf.

<SLV> | 12-24-2007 10:16 AM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 888327) Ol' Rev still thinks the 7.62x39 is suitable for elk. Lots of magazine readers and enthusiasts want to validate their choices of pip-squeek rounds that depend on expensive ammunition performing in gellatin or penetrating pine boards but have little flexibility or power. In the real world, there is always the chance of extenuating circumstances which can thwart the "tested effectiveness" of that 40cal and smaller pistol round from saving your ass. There is no substitute for a large diameter bullet weighing 200gr or more when it comes to stopping a human being. A .44 magnum revolver or Desert Eagle is also a dependable "ultimate" handgun. A .45Colt double action revolver would also be very reliable. The DA handgun offers ammunition versatility beyond any automatic save the specialty jobs that fire rimmed magnum ammunition, namely the Desert Eagle. But maybe the "ultimate" pistol is the tiniest hideout gun you can put in someone's ear... A pistol is a last resort weapon. An accurate, powerful, and versatile rifle is superior in every instance. If the way to win a knife fight is to bring a handgun; much better to be in possession of a rifle rather than any pistol when tshtf.
Troll.:pcguru: You must have a crush on Rev the way you follow him around to talk about the AK round. I don't see where that was any part of the discussion in this thread.

TheSimpleton | 12-24-2007 01:40 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Q: can the high-power 9mm safely fire from all common 9mm pistols? Why down-throttle from a 10mm to a Tokarev? To me the obvious would to have a 2nd mod in a more common caliber rather than a less common caliber. TS

money matters | 12-24-2007 02:17 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. The gackle of geese who "operate on bad info" (and readily disperse it), is rather large in this forum. SLV and Rev127 are blow-hard buddies of the first order in the lodge of Bad Info. Why post all the bitchy little comments? Maybe you feel threatened if others aren't enamored of your popgun toys, and slobbering all over you in agreement? The same gang of idiots post their crap tirelessly about "guns" here. I missed this "nugget" (moose make nuggets too!) from Wallew, "Rev, I've sent an email to Lone Wolf Distributors about if they would be willing to cut a 7.62x25 barrel to fit a Glock 20. As SC says, with all the other barrels available, by adding the 7.62x25 you would literally have a kick butt pistol that's reliable all day long." The .30Mauser or .30Carbine were long ago dismissed for their failure to stop, but the gackle just can't grasp the basic concepts of "survival" and "survivalism". Yeah, you're really going to find a whole lot of 7.62x25 ctgs, or components if you have to scrounge for ammuntion. Ol' Rev, though, he carries his AK, bulletproof vest and enough ammo to bring all that gear up to 40lbs. Not leaving much room for anything else, but the geese gotta make noise about something. A "Survival Pistol" ought to be capable of stopping a fight with one center torso hit. It ought to also utilize common ammunition and readily available spare parts. The 1911 Colt design is the most customized handgun on earth. There is a reason, but evidently the geese here are much wiser than those who teach The Pistol at all the shooting academies across the nation. If you aren't going to handload your ammunition, and you can't afford to buy cases of Cor-Bon, Federal HydraShok, Winchester Silvertip (who can?), then a 230gr round nose bullet will give you more mileage than any other Self-Loading Pistol round (aside from a .44mag or .50ae in a Desert Eagle). Sgt York acquitted himself nicely with the 1911. Guess our gackle of geese would complain that nobody told those German soldiers that 230gr ball ammo wasn't supposed to be effective, but results don't lie. There are many specialty firearms and cartridges which are interesting, serve a special purpose, but due to their characteristics disqualify themselves from consideration when the topic turns to "survival" or "survivalism". The .45acp Colt 1911 pistol is the greatest fighting handgun design of all time, firing the finest self-defense ctg ever designed, the .45acp. It is a proven performer. Buy the Jerry Kuhnhausen shop manual, some parts and tools, and your 1911 will function forever.

REV127 | 12-24-2007 03:32 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 888511) Troll.:pcguru: You must have a crush on Rev the way you follow him around to talk about the AK round. I don't see where that was any part of the discussion in this thread.
It has gotten to be pretty weird, hasn't it? I believe the truth points to itself and either way I have nothing to prove to anybody. But yeah, stalker weird. Quote:
Q: can the high-power 9mm safely fire from all common 9mm pistols?
You can shoot 9x19mm +P ammo safely in most of the stronger autos like Glocks or CZ's. If you mean the 9x25mm SilverCity mentioned then it would too long to be chambered in a 9x19mm pistol. That's actually a really interesting roung though, like a .357SIG Magnum! At 1700fps I'd consider it a serious possible alternative to the 7.62x25. Quote:
Why down-throttle from a 10mm to a Tokarev? To me the obvious would to have a 2nd mod in a more common caliber rather than a less common caliber. TS
The Tok cartridge can put out over 500ftlbs of energy and yield velocities over 1600fps so it's no slouch by any means. Bad guys and animals are stopped by well placed shots penetrating vital organs and nothing else so bullet diameter isn't a prime factor in stopping power. Because of the smaller frontal area and high velocity of the 7.62x25 it does exhibit superior penetration of less than LVL III armor and barriers. The same effect can be seen with 9x19mm Vs .40sw and .45acp, the former will pass through mild steel barriers that the latter will dent and bounce off of. This is obviously useful if your enemy takes cover or is wearing body armor. The 7.62x25 also shoots very flat to long ranges for a pistol, the ammo is very light weight and right now is very cheap in corrosive surplus form with non-corrosive newly manufacted ammo also easily available and reasonably priced.

hugo_danner | 12-25-2007 03:31 AM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. I was in the military and am familiar with M16's and .45's. I thought the 10mm and the .40 were the same thing. Am I wrong? Another thing, is it possible to use the same .45 bullets in a pistol (wether semi-auto or cylinder) and in a .45 rifle like those old winchesters they used in the old west? Would it be practical? Using the same ammo for both seems to me a good survival strategy, since your ammo is interchangable.

<SLV> | 12-25-2007 09:11 AM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Quote:
Originally Posted by hugo_danner (Post 889395) I was in the military and am familiar with M16's and .45's. I thought the 10mm and the .40 were the same thing. Am I wrong? Another thing, is it possible to use the same .45 bullets in a pistol (wether semi-auto or cylinder) and in a .45 rifle like those old winchesters they used in the old west? Would it be practical? Using the same ammo for both seems to me a good survival strategy, since your ammo is interchangable.
Better than that, you can use the .45 ACP in many modern sub-machine guns readily available in the USA. I've done the same thing with 9mm. I have a Glock and a Kel-Tec SUB-2000 which are both in 9mm, and BOTH use the same magazines! However, a pistol caliber is still just a pistol caliber. Everyone should have at least one rifle caliber (I recommend .308 Win).

wallew | 12-25-2007 03:25 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. sigh... so many targets, so little time... MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL. http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1198614185 http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1198614729

SilverCity | 12-25-2007 05:57 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Quote:
Originally Posted by hugo_danner (Post 889395) I was in the military and am familiar with M16's and .45's. I thought the 10mm and the .40 were the same thing. Am I wrong? Another thing, is it possible to use the same .45 bullets in a pistol (wether semi-auto or cylinder) and in a .45 rifle like those old winchesters they used in the old west? Would it be practical? Using the same ammo for both seems to me a good survival strategy, since your ammo is interchangable.
.40 inch is 10mm .40 S&W and 10mm Auto have the same bullet diameter...but are not the same cartridge.

____hoot____ | 12-25-2007 10:51 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Dang, guess my post doesn't belong in here as my thoughts on handguns in general are simular to those of that Quigley charactor in the movie and I always liked the sureity of the thing going BANG when I have a wheelgun in my hand.That being said, I have a $60 pawn shop 9 shot all steel H&R 922 that will put all shots in a grapefruit at 100 feet if I do my part. Weighs a hair under 2 pounds loaded with, a box of 50 rounds of 22lr ammo, and a "survival" folding knife in a bugout lightweigh nylon "camera" shoulder bag. Think that there is an a additional 3 boxes of ammo in there right now @ 6 ounces a box for a total operational weight of 50 ounces. Did some figureing once as to how many footpounds of energy I could throw down range with that package: 140 fp X 209 rounds=29,260 fp with expensive hyper velocity loads, or say 21-22,000fp with standard ammo out of a 4" revolver barrel. Why don't you do the figureing for your favorite weapon, ammo supply and carrying system within your personal allowable weight limit? You fellers ever do any backpacking? Climb any mountains? Ounces count in many such situations.

Kahlil Gibran | 12-25-2007 11:09 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Quote:
Originally Posted by ____hoot____ (Post 889893) Did some figuring once as to how many footpounds of energy I could throw down range with that package: 140 fp X 209 rounds=29,260 fp.
I like the idea of the .22 for many reasons but foot-pounds of energy isn't one of them. By your logic being punched by Michael Jackson one hundred times is equal to being punched by Mike Tyson once. :yippee: let's get them in a ring and find out if you are right

wallew | 12-26-2007 03:12 PM
Re: My vote for Ultimate Survival Pistol. Well, it LOOKS LIKE 'Lone Wolf Distributing' just turned that G20 (or G21) into THE ultimate pistol/survival choice... .45 acp down to at least 9mm, with several stops along the way with the release of this upgraded slide that will be available for either G20 or G21 frame... First post from JR (LWD) shows their new product slide that is about to become available, as the first ten or so are presold... http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=800403 Rev, I've exchanged a couple of emails with JR at LWD. They do seem 'interested' as the Tok 7.62x25 is VERY similar to the .30 Mauser (7.63x25), which they had been discussing already. I'll keep you informed. This just might be the ticket to a modern, double stack Glock in 7.62x25, which I would just HAVE to add to my safe (one pair, sequentially numbered).

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