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pinnacle | 03-29-2007 11:38 AM
old time repair business... I grew up in the country..about 10 miles from a small town in the midwest... The busiest guy around was a "machine shop" some guy had on his farm. He would basically fix anything....cars, trucks, tractors, bicycles, chain saws...whatever.... This was in the late 1970's and early 1980s. The problem was that you basically had to leave stuff for quite awhile....as they were backed up with work for ages. Anyway..the guy who had it passed away..and I guess one of his sons runs it now. The son is probably in his 50's. I asked my brother...are they still in business? he said...yes....but the guy only has one employee...and they are still backed up for months. I know some of you guys and gals live in big cities...etc...and are looking for a rural strategy. I know of a couple of other examples I could give you on these type of repair shops..but if you have a knack for fixing stuff....you could probably do ok if you had a little money to get started. You do not have to necessarily be in a town....people will find you. The problems may be 1) you have to be good. Working on this wide of an array of equipment, cars, etc. is not easy and may take awhile to pick up. 2) I am not sure of how much you would have to spend on equipment, etc. I know some of these guys have not really purchased any equipment in 20 years...and they seem to be ok.... This is not working on Toyotas, etc... basically working on stuff the corporate repair places and dealerships do not want. It is not changing oil, etc...either...corporate america has that covered. This is overhauling engines, fixed broken farm equipment, etc... Some people have a knack for it... The blacksmithing thread got me thinking about this. Guys like Halo who can fix about anything...will see huge demand in the future... Although the guy I knew worked hard...it was not easy...his machine shed was next to his house...and he would turn down jobs and people he did not want! He also required 1/2 of the payment in cash or check...up front.

pusher | 03-29-2007 11:50 AM
Re: old time repair business... Pinnacle you are right on, I live in a small town, have one little machine shop run by one old guy, he has more work than he can handle, also a small auto repair business the same way, as the economy gets worse I believe a lot of yuppies will no longer have the beamers or lexuses, at least not the ones that never really had any money, just an arm bank account, those will no longer live the good life and will be reduced to driving beaters like some of the rest of us, fortunately country boys like me can repair most of our own stuff,the yuppie on the other hand will either pay someone or walk.

MOD1 | 03-29-2007 01:36 PM
Re: old time repair business... I read this thread about equipment repair with much interest. Perhaps I can shed some light on what I see from my end. Teaching in the repair trade for more than 20 years, I can personally tell you that many people have no idea of what it's like to defend a college vocational program from the chopping block. Why you ask? Those holding the budget purse strings see only the business bottom line. It's much more cost effective for them to offer multiple sections of English, history and liberal art coursework rather than fund capital equipment and supplies necessary to establish or run any occupational program. Truly people with a short-sighted business model in mind. As a result, along with the lack of moral will and intestinal fortitude, collectively this country no longer has the ability to repair anything! Education and training helped save us in WWII, but don't make any bets on the next big one. Our throw away society may very well get what it deserves. Just my two cents - you can keep the alloyed ones! Mod1 p.s. Please find a WWII veteran today and thank him or her before its too late.

pinnacle | 03-29-2007 08:09 PM
Re: old time repair business... Another point I meant to make...this is one business where you can control your own destiny and not have to worry about outsourcing....or some big corporation taking over, etc. The last thing that would fit into any type of corporate model is this type of business...corporations want quick and easy businesses like oil and tire change where they can find kids for $10 per hour to do the bulk of the work. Does not work in a machine shop...you have to think and have half a brain...and it is alot of work. I grew up on a farm and we had really old tractors that broke down all the time...so I was over at this particular shop quite a bit. I asked my brother (who still lives in the area) if the shop was busier now or 25 years ago...he said they are busier now). Seems people will drive over an hour or so to find this particular shop...it it not just the locals. Shop is located on a dirt road about 10 miles from the nearest small town..no signage or anything...never spent a nickel on advertising...

John | 03-29-2007 08:12 PM
Re: old time repair business... Quote:
Originally Posted by MOD1 (Post 555098) Teaching in the repair trade for more than 20 years,
I was just curious what kind of equipment repair you teach.

Mike_Templar | 03-29-2007 08:22 PM
Re: old time repair business... Quote:
Originally Posted by pusher (Post 554966) Pinnacle you are right on, I live in a small town, have one little machine shop run by one old guy, he has more work than he can handle, also a small auto repair business the same way, as the economy gets worse I believe a lot of yuppies will no longer have the beamers or lexuses, at least not the ones that never really had any money, just an arm bank account, those will no longer live the good life and will be reduced to driving beaters like some of the rest of us, fortunately country boys like me can repair most of our own stuff,the yuppie on the other hand will either pay someone or walk.
I completely agree with this and I see it from both sides. I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks in my town. Other kids got new bikes, I made my own from spare parts and frames I'd find at yard sales and stuff. When we got a bit older, I bought a motorcycle for 15 dollars and brought it home in two trips with a wheel barrel. It was a scene right out of my body guard, because in the end it was missing a critical component which couldn't be found anywhere (the ignition coil inside the magneto) until I rooted through the basement of a junk shop one Saturday afternoon downtown. Finally, it worked. Moving on to cars, I re-built my uncle's 1970 Nova while the other kids were given working cars, etc. Fast forward 20 years...I went to college so I could get a 'real' job and the people I'm surrounded by can't do anything for themselves. They are very intelligent but have no handy abilities at all. I will disagree on one point about the 'BMW's' which make easy yuppie targets. I drive a 1992 BMW precisely because it is simplistic to work on. It is a straight six engine, manual transmission, rear wheel drive car. When something goes awry, it is actually made for maintenance. The oil filter is in a canister in the engine compartment! Contrast this with the Japanese 'sealed for life' philosophy of cars. They don't break, but if they do, God help you. The other thing is, the E30 and E36 and E46 generation of BMW's have tons of parts available, something Japanese cars don't because they are a victim of JIT (Just In Time Inventory) systems which doesn't produce any excess. I can buy any screw, bolt or rubber seal for my BMW. Try that with a Honda or Toyota or even a Chevrolet these days. (Sorry for rambling) My other comment is on the 'trade schools.' I have long thought America's system was screwed because we churn out kids right out of high school who don't have one clue what to do with themselves. Then, of course, the counselor's recommend 'just get an associates degree until you figure yourself out.' What crap. This just perpetuates people dumping money into college and student loans, which is the real goal. The problem is, in my city most waiters and waitresses have Bachelor degrees or even higher. In fact, I think we have the highest percentage of BS waiters if I recall correctly. Talk to them a few minutes and you'll discover they are extremely intelligent, but have somehow been led to believe that being a plumber or electrician is beneath them.

Au_Ag | 03-29-2007 08:27 PM
Re: old time repair business... Quote:
Originally Posted by MOD1 (Post 555098) Icollectively this country no longer has the ability to repair anything
For twenty or thirty years, a guy here had an auto repair shop, mainly doing A/C. controls, electronics. Always backed up. If there was something wrong with your vehicle, he could fix it but left heavier duty, longer repairs to others. It was unreal how many times I would see brand new vehicles from various dealerships in there to get something diagnosed/repaired - this was in the days before the diagnostic codes that cars now put out. Even then, there just weren't that many dealerships that could actually fix a particular problem that was hard to diagnose. The guys been gone for many years -he was an alcoholic.I think he drank himself to an early grave.

pinnacle | 03-29-2007 08:47 PM
Re: old time repair business... The guy I know actually does alot of non-car business...maybe 70% of his business is on non-cars....for whatever reason...he can figure out how to fix most items...he gets alot of farm equipment, tractors, forklifts, construction equipment, etc. etc... Plus...alot of trucks...hauling trucks, dump trucks, etc...

pusher | 03-29-2007 08:58 PM
Re: old time repair business... Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Templar (Post 555436) I completely agree with this and I see it from both sides. I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks in my town. Other kids got new bikes, I made my own from spare parts and frames I'd find at yard sales and stuff. When we got a bit older, I bought a motorcycle for 15 dollars and brought it home in two trips with a wheel barrel. It was a scene right out of my body guard, because in the end it was missing a critical component which couldn't be found anywhere (the ignition coil inside the magneto) until I rooted through the basement of a junk shop one Saturday afternoon downtown. Finally, it worked. Moving on to cars, I re-built my uncle's 1970 Nova while the other kids were given working cars, etc. Fast forward 20 years...I went to college so I could get a 'real' job and the people I'm surrounded by can't do anything for themselves. They are very intelligent but have no handy abilities at all. I will disagree on one point about the 'BMW's' which make easy yuppie targets. I drive a 1992 BMW precisely because it is simplistic to work on. It is a straight six engine, manual transmission, rear wheel drive car. When something goes awry, it is actually made for maintenance. The oil filter is in a canister in the engine compartment! Contrast this with the Japanese 'sealed for life' philosophy of cars. They don't break, but if they do, God help you. The other thing is, the E30 and E36 and E46 generation of BMW's have tons of parts available, something Japanese cars don't because they are a victim of JIT (Just In Time Inventory) systems which doesn't produce any excess. I can buy any screw, bolt or rubber seal for my BMW. Try that with a Honda or Toyota or even a Chevrolet these days. (Sorry for rambling) My other comment is on the 'trade schools.' I have long thought America's system was screwed because we churn out kids right out of high school who don't have one clue what to do with themselves. Then, of course, the counselor's recommend 'just get an associates degree until you figure yourself out.' What crap. This just perpetuates people dumping money into college and student loans, which is the real goal. The problem is, in my city most waiters and waitresses have Bachelor degrees or even higher. In fact, I think we have the highest percentage of BS waiters if I recall correctly. Talk to them a few minutes and you'll discover they are extremely intelligent, but have somehow been led to believe that being a plumber or electrician is beneath them.
Didn't mean to pick on anyone just because they drive a beamer,just trying to make a point, but you are correct in your statement, it's kind of sad to see most young people who think the only way to earn a decent living is with a college degree, I too have seen many college grads working meanial labor and at the same time the trades for anything technical can't seem to find enough people who will get their hands a little dirty to install things or repair things, before the real estate market started going down the skilled trade unions (hvac,equip operators,plumbers,electrician,etc) was always looking for skilled labor, and many of them make a good wage for what they do, better than many or most of those with that bachelor degree.

MOD1 | 03-29-2007 09:32 PM
Re: old time repair business... John, I currently teach welding, sheet metal, composite and plastic repair as part of an aircraft maintenance/repair program. Take care, Mod1

Mike_Templar | 03-29-2007 10:39 PM
Re: old time repair business... Quote:
Originally Posted by pusher (Post 555471) Didn't mean to pick on anyone just because they drive a beamer,just trying to make a point, but you are correct in your statement, it's kind of sad to see most young people who think the only way to earn a decent living is with a college degree, I too have seen many college grads working meanial labor and at the same time the trades for anything technical can't seem to find enough people who will get their hands a little dirty to install things or repair things, before the real estate market started going down the skilled trade unions (hvac,equip operators,plumbers,electrician,etc) was always looking for skilled labor, and many of them make a good wage for what they do, better than many or most of those with that bachelor degree.
Don't worry, I didn't take it that way. I was mostly using that as a lead in to my 'BMW's are very repairable' spill.

Chaps | 03-29-2007 11:14 PM
Re: old time repair business... I sold a small manufacturing company a few years ago and retired. I started it up from nothing, machining, fab, welding, etc. so I'm pretty handy. Goofed off for awhile but last few years I started fixing boats for people that I know but somehow one thing leads to another now I'm swamped with work 'cause nobody knows how to fix stuff or they don't have the time. Key is do good work and they'll gladly pay top buck cause reliable service is getting impossible to find.

Unclad Lad | 03-31-2007 01:29 AM
Re: old time repair business... Quote:
as the economy gets worse I believe a lot of yuppies will no longer have the beamers or lexuses, at least not the ones that never really had any money, just an arm bank account, those will no longer live the good life and will be reduced to driving beaters like some of the rest of us,
There are 40 and 50 year old Mercedes, BMWs, and Volvos around here that are everyday vehicles (some are, in fact, BEATERS!). My goal is to get one of those in a diesel. It would probably run longer than I will. One of the points being made is that there aren't a lot of people who know how to "fix stuff". One point that is overlooked is that there are a lot fewer items out there that are even fixable. How many people would ever take a $50 DVD player in for repair? The people who can repair things are, as was always the case, the ones who can adapt or fabricate something that will work, in the place of a part that is no longer made or for an item that in good times would have been cheaper to scrap, because it wasn't designed to be repaired.

volzka | 03-31-2007 07:37 PM
Re: old time repair business... Hey- You said a mouthful there Unclad. Why fix that rusted out old shitspreader when you can get a new one on your credit card? Why hire your neigbor to do a fix when you can put a welder on your credit card and do it youself? I just got back from checking out a farm auction to be held on mon., anything I could ever need is there, so why fix anything? While the idea is just fine and there are still some shops around here that actually do work there just isn't much work around. Especially if you'd like to be paid with "objects of permanent value". What I suspect is the case is that what we are now experiencing is the result of a tremendous amount of overproductivity that has resulted in an absolutely huge overabundance of just about everything. There may be an upside out there though if the present high volume of scrap continues to flood to the asians and goes into stuff like battleships and rebar. Seems like I read somewhere that the battleships the Japanese used against us in WWII came from the scrap that resulted from the demise of the heavy equipment used to log the virgin forests. But the cynic in me says that our new chinese masters will be grinding up our dead toyotas and melting them into rails in order to make some constuctive used of the detritus from the "age of happy motoring". In either case it might just take a while. I did drag home an old 10' cast iron lathe, a couple of milling machines and a huge old cast iron civil war vintage drill press a while back, got them set up and running and that's what they are doing as I write this-setting. I'd probably try to figger out something to build and sell if it wasn't for the Asian competition and the fascist gov't regulators. I still believe in the idea but suspect it won't work without some sort of serious economic collapse. I'm open for business, haven't spent a dime on advertising and did about $200 in repairs so far this year and non of it required the tools I just mentioned. IMHO, it's a great thought and may have a future but not much of a present. Unfortunately, I could use a few bucks right now to buy an oz or two and THAT ain't happening. So far, the best use of my time has been right here, trying to keep from screwing up.:beer: Volzka

TonyG | 03-31-2007 08:35 PM
Re: old time repair business... Working among the plain people, I see the repair shop principle in action all the time. Talk about ingenuity. They repair old cast iron cook stoves, fabricate entire pallet nailing systems, repair local farm machinary and made a gold mining system for a guy who winters out west mining gold. Another shop has people from a water line installation outfit come to them to fabricate the long shutoff handles and also make stainless steel flange connectd pipes. They use diesel powered hydraulics and air to operate their machinary. It's interesting to go in their to use some of their stuff. Pull this lever, pull this nob and flip that air switch to run the drill press. Push another lever and flip an air switch which powers an air cylinder to move a hydraulic lever to power the hack saw. Anyhow, Yes, fix it shops are good if you have lots of general trades and information. A welder, a machine lathe, drill press, some wood and metal laying around, a rack of bolts of various sizes and a bunch of hand tools. TG

volzka | 04-01-2007 09:06 AM
Re: old time repair business... Hey- Yup, fix-it shops are a great idea. Yup, you can spend a lot of time and money to set them up and I have friends who have done so. One of my neighbors is really handy, lives a half mile from town and put up a shed with a hoist, tire changer system he bought from a repair shop auction, has the welders and blah, blah blah. In the last five years I have not seen one car parked near the shop. The guy is a partially (vietnam) disabled vet on pension. If you want to find him, he's usually next door helping his brother shovel pigshit. My bet is that you will never get your time or money back. But go ahead if you want to, you can spend your money however you like. Just remember that like owning a road truck, owner operators will tell you they made $150,000 last year. What they really don't like to say is that it cost them $140,000 to make it. When the US is more like Mexico or Cuba (and probably will be)those types of shops will probably be a lifesaver and there may be places or oportunities that exist here and now. But that is very obviously not the case where I live, in rural, agricultural, communist-occupied Wi. OBTW, my Amish neighbor had the most complete diesel-powered machine shop I know of. He's moving to Missouri for lack of work.:smokin: Volzka

RichG | 04-01-2007 11:29 AM
Re: old time repair business... volzka....what do you really think?:haha: When a link is broken in this 'just in time' supply chain... a repair shop is a great ticket. Sure a lot of our needed stuff is crap (not worth repairing), but from my read on the skills of most, they can't even wire a plug. Electricity is a mystery, more less drill and tap some threads. Using your skills in trade for some length of gold chain could come in handy.....:smokin:

Unclad Lad | 04-02-2007 02:58 AM
Re: old time repair business... Quote:
When a link is broken in this 'just in time' supply chain... a repair shop is a great ticket. Sure a lot of our needed stuff is crap (not worth repairing), but from my read on the skills of most, they can't even wire a plug. Electricity is a mystery, more less drill and tap some threads. Using your skills in trade for some length of gold chain could come in handy.....
Rich, These generalists are not in the JIT hierarchy; in fact, the idea of a non-specialist doesn't exist. And being outside that chain means that the bosses, the union reps. and the shareholders don't recognise them. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

RiverRat | 04-02-2007 10:01 AM
Re: old time repair business... :confused_m: I own a full service machine shop...CNC,fab,sheet metal...name it. Nafta killed everything....did I sell ? No...Where the hell would I get new equipment if TSHTF ? I repair everything...and I mean everything. Pay a dealership or a mechanic $80.00 an hour to fix or replace exotic fuel injection systems or transmissions on my Hondas ? You have got to be kidding...I can repair the whole damn CPU at board level if I have to...piece of cake. Heavy equipment to microwaves...got you covered. Build a house ? Not a problem. I own enough heavy equipment to do anything your heart might desire and can repair every piece of it from the ground up... If TSHTF riots will break out in my front yard...I just don't understand why people pay other people to fix anything...guess I'm in a small minority. Specialization has killed America.... In the building trades I meet guys who can frame...anything else they won't touch...I also meet guys who call themselves Master Carpenters who can't hang a pre hung door in a masonry wall...they call in a mason. I met one brilliant Master Carpenter who drove about 75 masonry nails in a pre hung window in cinder block basement...looked like crap. Only problem was...he mounted it in backwards....that's pretty bad considering it took him 8 hours just to frame it in and then had to spend another eight hours tearing it out and replacing it with a new one at the owner expense who was paying him $25.00 an hour cash !!! The guy had no idea what a stud shooter was...for me that would have been a 1 hour job max....so much for today's American skilled labor. :puke: :puke: :puke: You have guys who are actually good,honest,and skilled technicians. Problem is they own a few hand tools and zero equipment. Take away the equipment....they might as well be washing cars...they spent all their money on Plasma TVs and Twinkies....they own squat,their skills might be in demand but they own nothing to work with. Better think really hard about that when you consider your skills are useless without materials and the high tech equipment your company owns,but you don't. I recently almost hired a bright electronics tech right out of the local community college as an apprentice electrician in the maintenance department where I work. The kid demanded we furnish him tools and every electrical meter he would need for the privilege of his coming to work for us. No way he was going to spend one dime of his money...the company should furnish everything he needed or he would refuse to take the job at $18.00 an hour....the kid didn't even own a $2.00 circuit tester. Maybe you can see why I got an attitude...I see this week after week and the caliber of college degree holders in the specialized trades is at an all time low...nothing like it was even ten years ago. Probably for the best I didn't hire him...the kid had zero knowledge of robotics,PLC programming,and computer controlled pneumatic logic circuits. I could see a definite funeral in his future the first time I sent him to repair a 4160V switch gear fuse... End of Rant....:confused_m: We are Doomed....

pinnacle | 04-02-2007 10:04 AM
Re: old time repair business... unclad adn riverrat: Although I generally agree with your post as it relates to just in time inventory, etc.... I thought I would point out a company that does the opposite of having specialists...and I think their strategy is as bad or worse! I agree in general that alot of people perhaps are idiot savants (well kind of...I am using it to describe someone who knows one thing only and nothing about anything else)...but I thought I would point out an opposite example. The reason I agree with you is that you are mostly referring to specialized trades where people do the work themselves....but GE is now mostly a financial services company...so there is a world of difference in specialized real trades and financial service/hocus pocus types (I would kind of qualify as both...but that is a long story!!). General Electric refers to someone as having a specific area of expertise as being a "SME" - Subject Material Expert. It is bad for your career at GE if you are SME. They encourage their top managers to not be experts...to go around and learn about a ton of different areas. Being a SME kind of means that you are stuck in one department or division and not going anywhere. What this creates is an environment where you have a bunch of people running divisions...and none of them know diddley about the business. The SME's work under them...and they call them in from time to time to consult with them if they actually need to know anything "specific" about the business. The guys/gals running the businesses only stay on the job a short time and run around from division to division. In this type of situation..it is probably not a good thing to have all these people running businesses they know nothing about...but that is the GE way...or it was a few years ago! I should point out...in the interest of full disclosure....that my handiwork and fix it abilities are fairly poor. I grew up on a farm and learned how to fix about anything...how to weld...and constantly fixed my own car, etc. When I went to college..I was shocked how other kids had no clue how to change a broken hose on their car, change the battary or a tire, etc. So...I can fix things...but I am just not very good at it. I worked at a repair gas station along an interstate..so I could do the simple stuff. My brother...on the other hand...is great at all things mechanical/construction. My thing was math....which turned into finance...I had a knack for algebra and calculus... Some people are just not wired to be great at mechanical stuff...that would kind of be me...I would probably be completely clueless if I had not grown up in an environment where things were constantly breaking (we were poor farmers) and I had to get them back operating on my own.

RiverRat | 04-02-2007 10:18 AM
Re: old time repair business... :bear_original: Pinnacle... I have a friend who jumped ship with GE and went to work for Cryovac mainly for the reasons you just mentioned....that,and the prospect of being forcefully transferred to China to train the Chinese how to build electrical turbines so his job could be phased out as soon as the new GE Chinese Turbine plant was operational. He walked after 22 years with GE ...I don't blame him. Welcome to the future....outsource everything. :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

volzka | 04-02-2007 06:06 PM
Re: old time repair business... Hey- Thanks Rat couldn'ta said it better if I worked at it all week. I buy NOTHING, that is except for the heavy duty, walking-beam, rusted out old broken down shitspreader I bought today for GULP $!$140. If I can't fix it, sell it for scrap and get my money back I just get along without it. And RichG, finally, somebody asked me what I think. HMMMMMmmm??? Goddddammmmit. Volzka

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