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Alpine5654 | 06-23-2006 10:29 PM
Propane Storage Question I have a question on propane. Does anybody know how long will propane last in a standard container (i.e. the container like a gas grill uses)? Thanks!

blueice | 06-23-2006 11:32 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Until the Packers win another Super Bowl.:wazzup_sg

silverbullet | 06-23-2006 11:50 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Wow! That long? I figured eventually EVERYTHING went bad. :clap2::clap2::clap2:

Ponce Cuba | 06-24-2006 12:04 AM
Re: Propane Storage Question Make some soap soup and put it around all the edges and see if a bubble blows up....... don't try to see if there is a leak by using a match, bad idea.

JCarvingblock | 06-24-2006 03:40 AM
Re: Propane Storage Question Propane as engine fuel is super easy on the engine. No carbon build up or carbon in the oil. The oil looks clean five times longer than with gasolene. I recently fired up an old van that had been sitting for like five years - never ran once. I thought there might be rust in the cylinders but no sign. (not like I pulled the heads or anything) Ran that thing a few hours; just enough to get it heated up good; changed the oil and checked the compression. Good engine. Pulled the engine from the van and put it in a pickup truck. Engines are really not designed right for propane. They should have better valves and valve seats and much higher compression - like a diesel - and then you would see just how good propane is for engine fuel. I was just talking to an engine rebuilder a couple of weeks ago about this. I like the stuff, but you do need to treat it with some caution. I overfilled the tank once and then parked in full sun. The overpressure pop-off valve popped a couple of times. That's a bit scary if you understand the possible consequences. Of course, it would never happen if you were driving and burning some fuel off. And the liquid has a boiling temperature of minus 45 degrees. So, it is like instant frost bite to blow propane on yourself. And the pressure in the tank varies from around 150 pounds per square inch when it is winter cold and close to 200 pounds in the full summer sun. Things like that are probably why it has never been promoted big time. Carver

Au_Ag | 06-24-2006 10:26 AM
Re: Propane Storage Question One other thing to be aware of - LP Gas is heavier than air. It should not be stored a cellar or other place where if there was a leak the gas would be contained/trapped in the lower part of an area. LP Gas is not normally used on small boats for that reason -

money matters | 06-24-2006 11:43 AM
Re: Propane Storage Question au-ag, I think you are confusing Butane with Propane. Many small boats/yachts do use propane appliances. Butane is not commonly available except for refillable lighters. I am sure it has been unavailable for residential and commercial use since the `60's, although might have many industrial applications. Probably available from an industrial supply outfit like Air Liquide. If any of you guys use Coleman/Century type small cylinder appliances, especially lanterns; you might want to obtain a Bulk Cylinder adapter valve which lets you refill the threaded disposable bottles. These work by threading the small cylinder into a 5 gal tank and then turning the 5 gal tank upside down and letting gravity flow fill the small cylinder. Costs about $15, I got mine at Northern Tools years back. Why pay $3 per cylinder and then throw it away? A 5 gal tank will fill about 40 cylinders. $10-$15 worth of gas in $120 worth of coleman cylinders.

Halophyte | 06-24-2006 12:02 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarvingblock (Post 282523) Propane as engine fuel is super easy on the engine. No carbon build up or carbon in the oil. The oil looks clean five times longer than with gasolene. I recently fired up an old van that had been sitting for like five years - never ran once. I thought there might be rust in the cylinders but no sign. (not like I pulled the heads or anything) Ran that thing a few hours; just enough to get it heated up good; changed the oil and checked the compression. Good engine. Pulled the engine from the van and put it in a pickup truck. Engines are really not designed right for propane. They should have better valves and valve seats and much higher compression - like a diesel - and then you would see just how good propane is for engine fuel. I was just talking to an engine rebuilder a couple of weeks ago about this. I like the stuff, but you do need to treat it with some caution. I overfilled the tank once and then parked in full sun. The overpressure pop-off valve popped a couple of times. That's a bit scary if you understand the possible consequences. Of course, it would never happen if you were driving and burning some fuel off. And the liquid has a boiling temperature of minus 45 degrees. So, it is like instant frost bite to blow propane on yourself. And the pressure in the tank varies from around 150 pounds per square inch when it is winter cold and close to 200 pounds in the full summer sun. Things like that are probably why it has never been promoted big time. Carver
Least we forget, internal combustion engine's primary fuel is oxygen. Fossil fuels are the catylist to burn air. .

electric-amish | 06-24-2006 12:26 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Money Matters How do you know when the little tanks are full. Is there any danger of over filling and damageing them or you. E-A

hoarder | 06-24-2006 12:32 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 282673) au-ag, I think you are confusing Butane with Propane.
Propane is heavier than air. Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarvingblock (Post 282523) Engines are really not designed right for propane.
Butane, propane, natural gas and LNG all have about the same characteristics in engines. They are very slow burning so the timing has to be very far advanced and maximum RPM is very limited. Valve seat recession is worse than gasoline. Power is less so larger displacement engines are needed. Back 30 years ago it was common for Texas ranchers to have 454 chevy 3/4 ton pickups running on propane for daily use and switching to gasoline to pull trailers. Also fuel-air mixing is more finicky because unlike gasoline, these fuels displace air. In a confined area, there are both minimum and maximum percentages of air and fuel that can explode. When I worked offshore I had a couple of Waukesha nat gas engines that had never had any lower engine work done in 90,000 hours, which is the equivalent of 3,600,000 miles. Oil never got any color in it. 900 to 1200 RPM is the maximum on those kinds of applications. Some of those engines had 10,000 cubic inches and ran 285 RPM.

Au_Ag | 06-24-2006 12:49 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 282673) au-ag, I think you are confusing Butane with Propane. Many small boats/yachts do use propane appliances. .
From http://www.sievert.se/us/lp_gas_information.htm Leaking LP gas is a fire hazard. LP gas is heavier than air. LP gas uses air during combustion. There are primarily two things to think about to prevent accidents with LP gas. 1. Avoid leakages. 2. Ensure good ventilation. Leaking LP gas can ignite and cause a fire, or in the worst case, an explosion. The cylinder valve should always be closed when the cylinder is not in use. The cylinder should be stored upright and, if possible, at ground level since LP gas is heavier than air and can therefore accumulate in cellars, manholes etc. ----above from link-------------- below - some comments "Propane is quite safe when it's installed with properly isolated storage bottles, a correct solenoid shut-off valve, systematic maintenance of the lines, and a good gas-detection alarm" Basically, I mean to say that propane is not safe in a small boat where you do not meet the above requirements. For decades the standard factory cooking unit in a small "say 19 to 25 foot" cruiser/cuddy cabin was a small alcohol unit. Propane would not be installed because of the cost involved to ensure adequate safety and ventilation and potential liability issues. I have been a boater for decades. It has been my experience that Murphys Law " _if something can go wrong, it will_ has even more consistent meaning and depth on water than on land, and the results are frequently more damaging. Boats by their nature are tight below the waterline with a water-tight hull - Where do you think any escaping gas will go? It's gonna go to the bilges. Every year few years, at a marina near me, someone dies because the boat operator did _not_ turn on the bilge blower prior to cranking his engine. Of course, they were supposed to do so, but they didn't - why temp fate? I'm not saying all of these accidents are due to propane, I'm just saying that systems can fail, stuff can go wrong - Bottom line - LP gas is heavier than air you need to think about that when storing and using.

Alpine5654 | 06-24-2006 03:02 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Thanks for all the help. I've been considering a swap from NG to LP in my house. Just in case TSHTF. I'll be able to survive (heat, hot water, cooking, ect...) a little bit longer than most in my area.

Walter Mitty | 06-24-2006 03:05 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Propane if heavier than air. so it will sink to the floor in an enclosed space. The venilation has to be down low. My friend is having a party tonight and needed to brorrow my grille. I took him the grille and two tanks I filled in Sept. of 1999. The grille fired right up. No problem after almost 7 years.

hoarder | 06-24-2006 03:17 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine5654 (Post 282764) Thanks for all the help. I've been considering a swap from NG to LP in my house. Just in case TSHTF. I'll be able to survive (heat, hot water, cooking, ect...) a little bit longer than most in my area.
Very good reason to do so. N.G. and Propane operate at different pressures. You may have to put new jets in the stove. Usually clothes dryers are interchangable. Water heater is different, too. All this is worth it in my opinion. Nowadays some propane companies will provide a buried bottle, too.

Alpine5654 | 06-24-2006 03:24 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine5654 (Post 282764) Thanks for all the help. I've been considering a swap from NG to LP in my house. Just in case TSHTF. I'll be able to survive (heat, hot water, cooking, ect...) a little bit longer than most in my area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 282770) Very good reason to do so. N.G. and Propane operate at different pressures. You may have to put new jets in the stove. Usually clothes dryers are interchangable. Water heater is different, too. All this is worth it in my opinion. Nowadays some propane companies will provide a buried bottle, too.
Good to know! Thanks.

Tn...Andy | 06-24-2006 08:59 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question I just put a buried 500 gallon tank in our yard.....I bought the tank.....complete install ( I dug the hole ) was about 1200 FRNs. Also store 12-100lb cylinders ( they hold just shy of 25 gallons )....buy them when HomeDepot/Lowes stores put them on closeout in the spring.....so that's another 300 gallons on permanent storage.

hoarder | 06-24-2006 09:07 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Andy, How do they do that? Is it a galvanized tank in direct contact with the soil or gravel? Or is the tank installed in a supported void of some kind to keep it from rusting out? I like the idea of a buried tank.

Tn...Andy | 06-24-2006 09:59 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Nah....it was just a painted tank....in fact, it wasn't even painted as good as the above ground rented tank IMHO..just what looked like a single coat of rust colored primer.......but they use a sacrificial anode 'bag' of something....magnesium ?.......and a wire from it to a lug on the tank. Guy told me that's supposed to do the trick for about 25years or more. Since my tank is on the side of a hill ( no lack of sloping ground here...ahahaha ), I also dug a drainage ditch out the side of the tank hole and lead it downslope, then used some plastic drainage pipe from the hole out. The hole I then backfill with sand so no rock would scrape the tankside ( as per instruction of the propane guy ), then a layer of dirt over the top to be grassed. I don't know how thick the walls on the tanks are.....but I have an old one with a data plate in the basement that I use for hot water storage for my homemade heating system.....the tank was made in 1953 and has a 3/8's thick wall. I've had water in it for 20 years and it ain't rusted out yet !

hoarder | 06-24-2006 10:15 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Thanks, Andy. Those sacrificial anodes work great when they work. I bet the new tanks ain't over 3/16 thick. Where I'd be putting one the drainage is very good so I guess I'd be OK.

JCarvingblock | 06-24-2006 10:23 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question If you buy a tank like Andy did, be sure to order one with a wet line and valve. That gives you the option of filling vehicle tanks. It is goofy stuff and has a set of rules all of its own. The pressure in the tank is directly proportional to the temperature of the tank. The condensation into liquid is dependent upon both pressure and temperature. The rule is the liquid will flow from the warmer tank to the cooler tank. The residual heat in the warmer tank effectively raises the pressure in that tank while a cooler tank has lower pressure. The liquid vaporizes at the top of the warm tank and condenses in the cooler tank. That means if you have one tank in the hot sun and the other tank inside a cool spot, the flow will be from warm to cool - even if that means liquid flows uphill. This might seem wrong, but I will guarantee it is true with the liquid lines plumbed together. The only way to get liquid to flow from a buried underground tank to a vehicle tank without a pump would be to vent a lot of gas into the air. Venting effectively lowers the temperature and pressure in the vehicle tank. Alternately, you could have your storage tank in the hot sun during the day and fuel the vehicle at night. Residual heat of the storage tank will drive the fuel through the liquid lines into the vehicle tanks which are taking on ambient air temperature. Filling vehicle tanks without a pump and without any venting can take up to eight hours, but it works. Buying pressure hose to plumb tanks together raises questions and some of the suppliers seem to think they are part of law enforcement. Typical slave mentality. However, nobody asks questions at a hydraulic supply and hydraulic hose will hold 1200 pounds of pressure. Nuff said; none of you guys are brain dead morons - Hypertiger's opinion not-withstanding. Also, a nice thing to know is that once you possess a wetline and valve assembly for your tank, it will fit on other tanks too. Universal fit. Carvingblock PS. Alpine, be sure to check if the cooking stove you propose to acquire will function without electricity. Most of the newer stoves need electricity, but the old stuff would light with a match. Funny how much smarter people were 35 years ago. Course, some of the true morons got themselves killed. The ultimate Darwin award.

Ghost Recon | 06-24-2006 10:33 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Quote:
Originally Posted by electric-amish (Post 282681) Money Matters How do you know when the little tanks are full. Is there any danger of over filling and damageing them or you. E-A
I used to work in a computerized acetylene filling plant. We shipped out under-filled and over-filled tanks. Not on purpose but it happened. I suspect that the propane dock had the same type of problems. No matter what type of gas your buying always spray the valve and safeties down with a soap/water solution before you take delivery. The larger acetylene tanks have a bottom safety. That's the one I would be concerned about if I were you. I worked briefly as a propane unloader. Once me and the filler were sitting in the break room and a delivery truck pulled up in front. The driver gets out and he was pissed. He comes storming in and tells the filler that he's got several leaking propane tanks on the truck. Sparks flew...believe me. All gases and tanks are potentially dangerous. I've seen explosions and flash-fires. Once on another shift, a manifold blew off of a NASA oxygen tuber. Guess what....they were using the wrong o-rings....again.....

Alpine5654 | 06-24-2006 10:35 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarvingblock (Post 282966) PS. Alpine, be sure to check if the cooking stove you propose to acquire will function without electricity. Most of the newer stoves need electricity, but the old stuff would light with a match. Funny how much smarter people were 35 years ago. Course, some of the true morons got themselves killed. The ultimate Darwin award.
Appreciate the warning. I haven't picked out a stove yet. I work at an appliance store part time (once every 6 months) to keep my employee discount (5% above cost :bandit:). I'll have to look for one that can be started without electricity. Side note, I firmly believe in Darwin theory, all you have to do is watch Cops on Saturday night :haha:. I have 2 kids, 1 on the way, so it dosen't apply to me anymore.

JCarvingblock | 06-25-2006 04:38 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Thanks for the new info on the overfill protection tanks Sukhoi fan. This guys on this site encompass a lot of diverse expertise for sure. And Ghost Recon - I was foreman on a big Bechtel job once. The iron workers had set an oxygen/acetylene tank pair up in a elevator shaft and run the hoses up the shaft to the next floor. Made sense to them, but the laborers were throwing clean-up trash down the same elevator shaft. Sometimes you just gotta yell at grown men to make an impression... I've made mistakes too. Usually thanked the fellow who pointed them out. Still owe one to a crane operator who saved me from certain hospitalization or death. Yep; set myself up, but he saw it. Try to learn from the mistakes of others; you can't possibly make them all yourself. Carvingblock

Alpine5654 | 06-25-2006 08:34 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Interesting link I found for anyone who has a gas generator. http://www.propane-generators.com/ Does anybody see any problems with these conversion kits? Thanks!

TheSimpleton | 06-27-2006 02:24 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Simpletons have heard that you can add Propane to deisel mixes for use and to improve performance. Propane version of NoX? TS

Alpine5654 | 06-27-2006 02:53 PM
Re: Propane Storage Question Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimpleton (Post 285161) Simpletons have heard that you can add Propane to deisel mixes for use and to improve performance. Propane version of NoX? TS
That is correct, and it actully improves fuel ecenomy!

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