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- - Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=366455)

Tn...Andy | 04-10-2009 01:51 PM
Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... I know some of ya'll are storing heirloom ( open pollinated, non hybrid ) seed for SHTF gardens down the road. I started doing the same thing some years ago, and this year, we started doing some experimentation with seeds from years past....bottom line.....what I'm finding, seed germination rates go down as time passes, sometimes DRAMATICALLY so..... For example, yellow crookneck summer squash. 2 years ago, I bought a fair sized pack of them from the local farmer co-op store, and planted a portion in my garden that summer....lots of squash.....so much so, that they tend to turn to BIG, tough yellow squash if you don't catch them at the early stage I like them.....about 6-8" long, and still tender. So I simply let the last of the crop of big ones "go" as fall approached, and tilled them under for winter. Well, the next spring, there was absolutely NO NEED to replant....in fact, there were so many "volunteers", I had to thin heavy instead......so the rest of the original pack of seed stayed in my cookie tins of seeds, unused. So, now THIS year, I'm planting the squash in a different location, plus we have the green house to use this year, so we're starting plants early. We planted 3 batches of seed in the small, plastic containers in flats....one saved from last year's "big boys", some of the original Co-op seed from 2006, and the last, some seed I got from Ark Institute ( good source of OP seed ) in 2005. Guess what ? Germination on last year's saved seed ? Out of 16 "cubes", 13 have plants, 3 nothing........81% Out of 2006 original seed ? 1 out of 16 ! 6% And some from Ark Institute from 2005 ? 1 out of 16 !! same 6% Same potting soil, on the same flats, watered the same, and keep heated the same.....so it's GOT to be the seed. Planted quite a few of the Ark Institute OP seeds I bought in 2005, and am finding very similar, disappointing rates of germination for older seed of various species. Only cantelope and watermelon seem to even come close to seed from one season previous. SOooooooo......take warning.....that OP seed you stuck away years ago MAY not be worth a flip if you ever HAVE to use it.....or the germination rates may be so low, you'll starve ! I was figuring with 48 starts, we'd have 40 or so seedlings to go in the garden.....instead we have 15.....which is still plenty of squash, AND I have plenty of time to hit another planting.....BUT without LAST YEAR'S seed, the results would have been a disaster...ESPECIALLY IN A SHTF situation where food is life...... As always, Your Mileage May Vary........but worth noting, I think..... That's all the news from the greenhouse today........

Heimdhal | 04-10-2009 01:59 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... do you freeze the seeds when you store them?

Tn...Andy | 04-10-2009 02:02 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... We don't freeze seed.....they are stored in a cool, dry location. Some seed we soak ahead ( I do beans, peas, corn that way ) but none of these were. The potting soil is kept moist and warm ( heating cables under the flats ), AND all seeds in the same flat, so treatment is equal.....

jedemdasseine | 04-10-2009 02:02 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Good information. I've heard stories similar to yours, Andy.

Heimdhal | 04-10-2009 02:21 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Quote:
Originally Posted by Tn...Andy (Post 1671654) We don't freeze seed.....they are stored in a cool, dry location. Some seed we soak ahead ( I do beans, peas, corn that way ) but none of these were. The potting soil is kept moist and warm ( heating cables under the flats ), AND all seeds in the same flat, so treatment is equal.....
any particular reason for NOT freezing the seeds(other than an ideal ambient temp as per your geography)? I live in south florida, so cool, dry locations are hard to come by, other than the freezer or the fridge. I've had a bit of luck with freezing seed in the past though, but I dont garden on nearly the same scale you do.

Merlin | 04-10-2009 02:53 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... I just this morning put some seeds into the freezer in a Ball canning jar because I've experienced the very thing that Andy describes. The results vary widely depending on what plant we're talking about; but, in general, age isn't a good thing for seeds. So, I'm going to try the freezing idea and see what happens. Onions, in particular go pretty fast after one year. Peas seem to be OK for 3 years or so but then germination rates begin to fall. So, I'm freezing the seeds I did not use this spring. I find onions in particular to be a big, big problem because they go to seed the second year, not the first. That means you have to find a way to keep some onion bulbs over winter so they can go back out into the garden in the spring. I don't know about your experiences, but my onions don't make it over winter :)

Fullpower | 04-10-2009 03:06 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Freezing seed sounds like a smart thing to try. I dont have any precise timeline, but many disparate trends are individually and severally pointing to a worldwide famine of unimaginable consequence.

oldmansmith | 04-10-2009 03:06 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Try bunching onions, smaller than the real thing but you plant the bulbs in the fall (like garlic), no seeds to save. Good survival onions and they keep forever.

Twisted Avatar | 04-10-2009 03:56 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... So I guess the moral of the story is. When it comes to seeds it will ALWAYS be a crap shoot. Kinda like life no???

scholarcoon | 04-10-2009 04:49 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... How you store them is key. It takes heat and moisture (and sometimes light) to germinate a seed so keeping those things away from your seeds is important. Keep them sealed, like in a zip loc bag and put them in the basement, or even better, the refrigerator or freezer. Keep them dry, cool, and dark and they will last quite a while. The flip side is that there are tricks you can use to get old seeds to germinate too. Once again, heat and moisture. Room temperature is actually not the ideal temperature to germinate seeds. Most seeds germinate well at around 80 degrees. Soaking seeds helps too. This year I got some 11 year-old tomato seeds to germinate so they can definitely last a long time if you do it right.

TTAZZMAN | 04-10-2009 05:17 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... I am seeking guidance and understanding as far as harvesting seeds and proceedures for future germination upon harvesting seeds...do you dry them in a specific way prior to freezing or to a specific ideal moisture content.. is there a specific process a person needs to follow to get the best results i was seeking a step by step proceedure that has proven results....because as Andy is saying that is a Huge drop off in seed viability i am sure I like others has a stash of "heirloom" seeds for SHTF and Andys results are scarry to say the least. And it implys a need to renew seed supply on a annual basis. Is Andy doing something wrong? or is this to be expected? and if its to be expected i wonder about the viability of my commercially obtained heirloom seeds? Do the commercial people do something different? Lotta questions but i am seeking insight THanks

immanti | 04-10-2009 05:18 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Thanks for the heads up, TnAndy.

Merlin | 04-10-2009 05:31 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... The technique I have to tell you was passed to me by the woman who owns Amishland Heirloom Seeds (www.amishlandseeds.com) and is purely anecdotal. She said that, in the wild, the fruit of many plants (like peppers and tomatoes) are eaten by wild animals and birds. I myself have seen squirrels carry off tomatoes from my garden. The seeds pass through the digestive system and out the other end. This is nature's way. In an attempt to scarify hard to germinate or older seeds, she suggests soaking in vinegar or bleach and water solutions. This worked for me with some older bell pepper seeds I had been unable to germinate. Definitely preferred to collecting bird poop.:s1:

scyth | 04-10-2009 05:36 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... All - Simple is as simple does. I learned from my Ma to let enough plants "Go to seed" each season to provide Seed for the next season. So, a yearly rotation. Keep a holdback of last year's seeds In case a late killing frost or some other disaster Wipes out your first planting. That's the way I learned it, And that's the way I do it still. scyth

brewer | 04-10-2009 06:04 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Hey Andy, thanks for the info.. I was always suspect about can packed heirloom "survival seeds". It seems like it's best to process and store your own seed each season. Have fun with that new greenhouse,,, I really enjoy my new one. brewer

Ralleia | 04-10-2009 07:41 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Quote:
Originally Posted by TTAZZMAN (Post 1671922) I am seeking guidance and understanding as far as harvesting seeds and proceedures for future germination upon harvesting seeds...do you dry them in a specific way prior to freezing or to a specific ideal moisture content.. is there a specific process a person needs to follow to get the best results i was seeking a step by step proceedure that has proven results....because as Andy is saying that is a Huge drop off in seed viability i am sure I like others has a stash of "heirloom" seeds for SHTF and Andys results are scarry to say the least. And it implys a need to renew seed supply on a annual basis. Is Andy doing something wrong? or is this to be expected? and if its to be expected i wonder about the viability of my commercially obtained heirloom seeds? Do the commercial people do something different? Lotta questions but i am seeking insight THanks
In order to successfully store seeds indefinitely, they must be dried to 5-8% moisture, sealed in an airtight container, and then frozen. The guidance from "Seed to Seed" is that under 5% moisture can harm seeds. So the target is obviously 5-8%. It says small seeds are not damaged so long as the moisture remains above 3%--large seeds are more sensitive. The recommendation for drying from this book as an equal weight of dry silica gel to seed packets to be dried, left for a period of 7-8 days in the drying container and then moved to cold storage. I repackage my seeds in paper coin envelopes and store them in an airtight pelican cases on top of a layer of silica gel. I store these in the fridge or freezer depending on how often I'll need to access them. A project I want to get to is to subdivide my seeds based on the number I expect to use each year and and store all but the current year's seeds in the freezer. Sorbent systems sells bulk silica gel for a very reasonable price. Certain types of seeds have a much shorter natural lifespan than others, so particular care must be taken. The parsley family (carrots, fennel, coriander/cilantro, dill) has the shortest lifespan--1-2 years. Onions and spinach are a bit longer. Most of the other vegetable seeds are not so picky about not quite ideal conditions.

lessoil=+pm | 04-10-2009 08:29 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Quote:
Originally Posted by silica gel (Post 1672092) In order to successfully store seeds indefinitely, they must be dried to 5-8% moisture, sealed in an airtight container, and then frozen. The guidance from "Seed to Seed" is that under 5% moisture can harm seeds. So the target is obviously 5-8%. It says small seeds are not damaged so long as the moisture remains above 3%--large seeds are more sensitive. The recommendation for drying from this book as an equal weight of dry silica gel to seed packets to be dried, left for a period of 7-8 days in the drying container and then moved to cold storage. I repackage my seeds in paper coin envelopes and store them in an airtight pelican cases on top of a layer of silica gel. I store these in the fridge or freezer depending on how often I'll need to access them. A project I want to get to is to subdivide my seeds based on the number I expect to use each year and and store all but the current year's seeds in the freezer. Sorbent systems sells bulk silica gel for a very reasonable price. Certain types of seeds have a much shorter natural lifespan than others, so particular care must be taken. The parsley family (carrots, fennel, coriander/cilantro, dill) has the shortest lifespan--1-2 years. Onions and spinach are a bit longer. Most of the other vegetable seeds are not so picky about not quite ideal conditions.
i need to buy some of the silica gel; any reason to get the indicating type; also other uses? is this the type u can dry & reuse? thanks ralleia u gave this info, i got the book but need to buy the silica.

lessoil=+pm | 04-10-2009 08:42 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Quote:
Originally Posted by scholarcoon (Post 1671879) How you store them is key. It takes heat and moisture (and sometimes light) to germinate a seed so keeping those things away from your seeds is important. Keep them sealed, like in a zip loc bag and put them in the basement, or even better, the refrigerator or freezer. Keep them dry, cool, and dark and they will last quite a while. The flip side is that there are tricks you can use to get old seeds to germinate too. Once again, heat and moisture. Room temperature is actually not the ideal temperature to germinate seeds. Most seeds germinate well at around 80 degrees. Soaking seeds helps too. This year I got some 11 year-old tomato seeds to germinate so they can definitely last a long time if you do it right.
i have been getting much, much better germination by starting my seeds for seedlings in a tray w/ compost with a lightbulb -20w ; in my oven. i hold the temp. at around 80 degrees, & cover tray with reused foil- very moist in beginning & 3-4 day before checking & i get many many more starts ; i use a lot of older seed. don't accidentally turn u'r oven on- i did & had to drag the stinking mess out of the house 2 yr. ago.:111: afterwards of course. last yr. we had wet & cold spring & most folks early garden didn't even come up enough to salvage; had to restart. the climate swings are a big, big challenge.

Ralleia | 04-10-2009 09:02 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Quote:
Originally Posted by lessoil=+pm (Post 1672155) i need to buy some of the silica gel; any reason to get the indicating type; also other uses? is this the type u can dry & reuse? thanks ralleia u gave this info, i got the book but need to buy the silica.
You'll probably want at least some of the indicating type so you will know when the silica gel needs to be re-dried. Both the indicating and non-indicating types can be re-dried and re-used. I bought mostly the clear and some indicating and then mixed them--unless you want a whole lot it would probably be easiest to just buy a can already mixed. The indicating type has colbalt, which has some potential health concerns, so one should be mindful of direct contact with food. Garden seeds should be fine.

lessoil=+pm | 04-10-2009 09:07 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... thanks! ralleia.

TTAZZMAN | 04-10-2009 10:05 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... great info ..glad i asked.....thank you

ImaCannin | 04-10-2009 11:03 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... This may be a dumb question, but what do you do with 15 squash plants? Two plants about run me ragged! My livestock and dogs eat them regularly during the summer!

CrufflerJJ | 04-11-2009 12:30 AM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaCannin (Post 1672365) This may be a dumb question, but what do you do with 15 squash plants? Two plants about run me ragged! My livestock and dogs eat them regularly during the summer!
Squash on your cereal in the morning, squash on your sandwich at lunch, squash pickles for a snack, squash & onions for dinner, squash pickles (again) for a snack, squash squash squash squash.... Then there's the bags of squash given to the neighbors & coworkers. Plus the squash cooked down & stashed in the freezer.

TheSimpleton | 04-17-2009 12:37 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Seeds have tremendous variety in how long they stay viable. It's so various some last 2 years and some 2,000 (wheat). Also huge variety in how many individuals you need to plant to insure genetic viability (5 plants vs 50 acres). Also huge variety in how tolerant they are to lousy storage in moisture and temperature. Bottom line: a specialty nicely left to real experts with large farms focused on seed production and can sell to the surrounding area. Under the bottom line: if only we had that luxury. There are so few seed farms left, and owned by large corporations of the wrong kind, that to leave it to the market to solve could be suicidal. Maybe we can each pick a favorite plant to focus on and trade seeds over the net? TS Who eats largely on tomato and squash volunteers.

TTAZZMAN | 04-18-2009 12:21 AM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... A friend of mine brought me some Paw Paw (that is what they are called around here) fruits he had found in the woods...after eating them...on the last one i had a epithany and saved the seeds from it..... I thought i would try to germinate these 3 seeds and transpant them to my land..... anyone know anything about these plants..what they like(sun,shade,soil,water) etc..nutritional info...they taste like a sweet bannana.. im looking for personal experience i have google searched and read the material Thx

Stealinator | 04-18-2009 10:51 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Quote:
Originally Posted by TTAZZMAN (Post 1683174) A friend of mine brought me some Paw Paw (that is what they are called around here) fruits he had found in the woods...after eating them...on the last one i had a epithany and saved the seeds from it..... I thought i would try to germinate these 3 seeds and transpant them to my land..... anyone know anything about these plants..what they like(sun,shade,soil,water) etc..nutritional info...they taste like a sweet bannana.. im looking for personal experience i have google searched and read the material Thx
Great idea. I have been wondering what to plant in Va, most fruit trees , besides apple, do not do all that great. Rember eating some at a park near my house years back. Gonna do some research myself on the paw paw. http://www.tytyga.com/publication/Growing+Paw+Paw+Trees

MagpieFairy | 04-19-2009 01:25 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Quote:
Originally Posted by TTAZZMAN (Post 1683174) A friend of mine brought me some Paw Paw (that is what they are called around here) fruits he had found in the woods...after eating them...on the last one i had a epithany and saved the seeds from it..... I thought i would try to germinate these 3 seeds and transpant them to my land..... anyone know anything about these plants..what they like(sun,shade,soil,water) etc..nutritional info...they taste like a sweet bannana.. im looking for personal experience i have google searched and read the material Thx
Paw paws are touchy, from what I understand. I have 2 trees in pots that I've been waiting to leaf out before I planted as per the fellow who sold 'em to me. Their taproot doesn't like to be disturbed apparently and best to let them get some foliage before sticking them in the ground. Mine are about 5-6ft tall right now.... don't know how long they've been growing. I'm opting for a sunny spot that will get laste afternoon shade.

GreenSpirit | 04-19-2009 01:37 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimpleton (Post 1682181) Seeds have tremendous variety in how long they stay viable. It's so various some last 2 years and some 2,000 (wheat). Also huge variety in how many individuals you need to plant to insure genetic viability (5 plants vs 50 acres). Also huge variety in how tolerant they are to lousy storage in moisture and temperature. Bottom line: a specialty nicely left to real experts with large farms focused on seed production and can sell to the surrounding area. Under the bottom line: if only we had that luxury. There are so few seed farms left, and owned by large corporations of the wrong kind, that to leave it to the market to solve could be suicidal. Maybe we can each pick a favorite plant to focus on and trade seeds over the net? TS Who eats largely on tomato and squash volunteers.
I think you're correct: it's unlikely most gardeners would be able to effectively maintain more than one or two lines of vegetable seed. It's a tougher task than some imagine. People will need to specialize in one or a few seed lines and buy or trade for the others.

MagpieFairy | 04-19-2009 08:47 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenSpirit (Post 1684911) I think you're correct: it's unlikely most gardeners would be able to effectively maintain more than one or two lines of vegetable seed. It's a tougher task than some imagine. People will need to specialize in one or a few seed lines and buy or trade for the others.
I'm building isolation cages to keep some plants separate. Hopefully I will be getting my greenhouse this summer as well so I can selectively keep plants there. Tomatoes & beans don't cross too easily, so just a little distance will keep heirlooms true. Learn the different varieties of squash - pepo, maxima, moschata and plant them in groups of 3, choosing plants from each as they do not cross pollinate. Another way to work with squash and cucumbers is to grow varieties every other year and save seed. The seeds should remain quite viable for that long at least. If you have a little acreage, sometimes you can put enough distance between your similar plants.... which is what we do. I've started some plants very late that I want to save seed from this year. I intend to keep them in pots for a while and not allow much fruiting before I set them out in their isolated areas. By the time I do this, the similar plants I've got already producing will be getting close to finished for the summer. We don't have more than one one neighbor who gardens that is close enough to be a problem, either, so we're lucky. Where there is a will, there is a way. :wink:

Jodster71 | 04-22-2009 09:30 AM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... I can't remember where I read it, but apparently some seeds require freezing to trigger their germination mechanism. It's kinda God's way of telling the seed "don't germinate until 'after' Winter".

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MagpieFairy | 04-22-2009 09:43 AM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Quote:
Originally Posted by Jodster71 (Post 1688934) I can't remember where I read it, but apparently some seeds require freezing to trigger their germination mechanism. It's kinda God's way of telling the seed "don't germinate until 'after' Winter".
Yes, and some seeds need soaking and some need scarifying. Just have to start getting your hands dirty to figure out which ones.... seed packets and books rarely give ALL of the details. Cold weather flower bulbs need to be frozen.

momopanda | 04-28-2009 09:55 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... Just figured I'd throw my recent count in here too. Mostly seed , saved in the packets, stored in a ziplock in the garage fridge for 2 years unless otherwise noted. Tomatoes (heirloom, Brandywine): sprouted 8 of 10 from the packet, 2 years old, and 8 of 10 from saved seed last year. beans , Kentucky wonder, sprouted 12 of 16 from the packet Butternut squash, no info on which, I threw the packet out, sprouted 11 of 12 (can't tell you how much I love this fruit. No shit I'll reap 15 or 20 pounds per vine if I care for them, and you throw them on kitchen counter and forget them for months- they are hte ultimate SHTF food imo- bake in 1/2 inch water at 350 for 40 minutes then beat with pat butter. teaspoon maple and sprinkle salt/pepper- Damn! it's good eatin'!) Beets - chioggia- sprouted 24 out of 24 Lettuce- balck seeded simpson, and simpson elite, sprouted about 70% Peppers- zero out of 36 . three variety. I must have done something really wrong here, though I can't figure exactly what. I mean zero, have to head to the farm for plants if I want peppers this year. Or maybe don't refrigerate pepper seeds, though I've not heard that. Chard - close to 100% on 3C silverbeet heirloom. Corn - gonna say 90%? Yeah I'm one of these guys that tries to sprout and replant corn cause the chipmunks always win that direct sow battle. I'm doing three sisters on on a bunch of mounds and we'll see how that goes. Radishes, no name , have notes that is a German sativus from Seedsavers, sprouted 100%. Eggplant, 2 varieties , zero out of 8 sprouts. unless these bad boys are taking 4 weeks to sprout they're a dud totally. Zucchini- saved seeds from plants I bought last year from Lowe's- 100% and then some. thought I only sowed one per cube, but damn I must have been feeling frisky. They're vigorous. other saved stuff, the peas are gangbusters( But i don't do inoculant for the peas , so as usual I expect they'll crap out in a week or two.) , as I said the tomatoes are fine (I let these sit and mold over for a week or so , then rinse and pat dry). I buy seedlings for my romas cause i'm lazy i guess, but they are my bulk and the best storage, canning / sauce tomoto IMO. Corn was a hybrid, stored 1 year ( or 9 months technically)- sprouted about 90% maybe? I got no problem with the hybrids. In fact if you ignore them you're doing yourself a disservice on several levels. Basil - saved from gone to seed. Taking forever to sprout , but there is life. Could be a friggin weed though for all I know, not experienced with this stuff. We called basil a weed in my Irish homestead of days gone by- friggin Italians! Carrot seed ran maybe 75% sprout on Danvers half long., But I expect the usual shitty yield ouuta these things. We'll see. Anyway, my two cents.

CANUCKFARMER | 04-29-2009 02:01 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... It should be noted that if you are taking seeds from a plant to use next year,make damn sure you let them rippen on the vine and collect them later. I do not know what the maturity dates are for garden produce seeds but i'm pretty sure they are much later than when you harvest. If anybody does know that would be good info to post.

MagpieFairy | 04-29-2009 06:09 PM
Re: Saving heirloom seed ? Warning...... I just planted a bunch of seeds for 1999 with 50% or better rate of germination. They've been kept in the fridge. Beans, squash, herbs... when I a better idea of which ones did and which ones didn't. I'll post the results.

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