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- - Thinking of buying a handgun (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=37425)

thorgrim | 05-29-2006 03:58 AM
Thinking of buying a handgun I am thinking of buying a handgun and would like a little advice. What sort of characteristics do you think are the most important? Reliability, capacity, availability of ammo, concealment, stoping power, others? I currently use .38 special revolver at work and am not a bad shot. I also have some experience with a Glock as well as a few others. I have fairly small hands so grip size would be a factor. Any tips recommendations? If you could only have one handgun what would it be?

Alric | 05-29-2006 04:05 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun I am trying to decide what handgun to get myself. The one thing I hear a lot about, and you said it was availability of ammo. A gun is useless if you have nothing to shoot with and most people seem to agree that if TSHTF the first thing to go beside food is going to be guns and ammo. So the more common a gun is, the more likely you will be able to find the ammo that goes with it.

Hivemindgammahydra7 | 05-29-2006 04:16 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by thorgrim If you could only have one handgun what would it be?
A good, solid 1911 in .45 ACP. My Colt is my carry weapon, and I trust my life to it.

Infidel | 05-29-2006 04:34 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun give te man a fish blah blah teach a man to fish blah blah do not beat the dead cow, send him where it's been talked to death got to http://www.ar15.com/ and peruse a search function. this topic there is about once every 30 seconds

sarkaufagus | 05-29-2006 04:45 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun The SHTF senario isn't here yet, and I will be surprised if it ever happens. A .357 sig is the hottest load on the market. Everyone on this site, it seems, are pro .45. Thats like throwing rocks... I have a glock model 22 .40. The .40 is a nice round, better and more expensive than a .45, and I got a .357 sig barrel to fit it for about 125. All a .357 sig is a .40 cartrage necked to a .357 cal, with all the punch and firepower. Ammo is high, but so is .45 ACP for ammo worth anything. Never buy generic, will clog your system.. At 20 bucks for 50 rnds, is a bit on the pricey side, but there is plenty of time to stockpile.... Whats worse than a pistol with no ammo? A pistol that has ammo and gives you a false sense of security. I'm not knocking the 45, great gun. But for a decent offensive, effective range, 45, you will pay over a grand. Glocks go for about 500, top end. Throw another 5 hundred for ammo and you break even, and still have lead to sling.

Orwell Huxley | 05-29-2006 07:31 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun For reliability and accuracy, the Sig P220 .45 is among the best. I'd recommend shooting a P220 before you make your decision; you'll be most impressed. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search Contrary to what sarkaufagus said, I've fired thousands of cheap target rounds through my P220 and have never had a single misfire. OTOH, my preferred load when carrying is the Hydra-Shok.

sarkaufagus | 05-29-2006 07:38 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Orwell, you ever fired a .357 sig? If so, were you impressed? Hottest load on the market.... More knock-down power than my Desert Eagle point five ohh. Match that with your .45. Just for comparisons sake. Be good.

Maddie | 05-29-2006 07:48 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun It would help if you mentioned what you want out of the handgun. Is this going to be a carry gun? a home defense gun? a target shooting/plinking gun? Will others in your family be expected to be able to use it, such as for home defense? Do you ever plan to reload your own ammo or will cost and availability of ammo be an issue? I will say that if you're looking for a plastic gun, take a look the Springfield XP. The grips seem to fit smaller hands more comfortably than Glocks.

Orwell Huxley | 05-29-2006 08:06 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by sarkaufagus Orwell, you ever fired a .357 sig? If so, were you impressed? Hottest load on the market.... More knock-down power than my Desert Eagle point five ohh. Match that with your .45. Just for comparisons sake. Be good.
I haven't, but I'll look to do so. More stopping power is always a good thing, and if the .357 fires nearly as smoothly as my P220... :D

Nuggethunter | 05-29-2006 08:36 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun AR 15 post ban pistol; http://www.quarterbore.com/images/nfa-pistol.jpg

JAYCEE | 05-29-2006 09:47 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun I don't see how anybody can own just one gun. I think the best survival round is the 22LR. You can carry 1000 rounds in the pockets of a winter coat without being noticed. It's very quiet. It's very cheap. Rounds could be used for barter when TSHTF. Offensive and defensive. Self-defense and hunting. Rifle and handgun. No survival plan is complete without 22LR, IMO.

Au_Ag | 05-29-2006 09:57 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by thorgrim If you could only have one handgun what would it be?
for me - would be colt 1911 model - I've fired hundreds of thousands of rounds through them in competition, am intimately familiar with the gun and it's derivations - anything else doesn't feel right to me. BTW, any competitor will tell you without hesitation that reliability is the most important issue. Because of that factor - I recommend Glocks to anyone who asks - they are the most commonly used "factory" pistol in Limited classes. I have never seen a Glock malfunction on factory ammo. A friend that is a writer had a number of guys at the range fire 10,000 rounds thru a glock - no cleaning, no nothing - and no malfunctions Get a glock, preferably in .40 caliber, and never look back

REV127 | 05-29-2006 11:30 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Capacity, speed of reloading, reliability and durability are the chief attributes of a fullsized combat handgun. Caliber does not matter nearly as much as bullet design, none of that matters nearly as much as shot placement. At least half of all violent encounters involve more than 1 attacker and your marksmanship will degrade under stress. Hitting someone in non-vital place with a larger caliber handgun won't get you any further than shooting someone in a non-vital place with a smaller caliber handgun. .45acp is not a magnum-class caliber, .40 was designed for FBI agents who couldn't handle a fullsize 10mm, 9mm is much better than harsh language. If I had to pick a caliber on no criteria other than how it will perform in a shootout I'd opt for .357sig. It offers the penetration and power of the .357mag in a high capacity auto configuration. Good stuff, but not cheap and not as common as some other calibers. Any of the other three already mentioned will perform adequately as well, pick good bullets and place them in vital areas on the enemy.

Mercury Rising | 05-29-2006 11:48 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun DO IT! not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

merc49 | 05-29-2006 12:26 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun If you are looking for a gun for WTSHTF. then I would suggest a 9MM unless you are going to stock pile 10,000 rounds of your favorite Ammo. Its cheaper to shoot now and the availability of it will be a hell of alot more than .45acp wtshtf. Find out what caliber your local police department uses most, and the nearest armory for side arms. Best guess is 9mm or .40 cal. Don't let all this talk about stopping power and punch get you distracted from what wou want the gun for. A 9mm will kill an intruder just like any other big round. It my not make your Dick feel bigger like having a 357mag or 45.ACP but it will get the job done, cheaper, and usually with a bigger Mag Capasity than the others. I would rather have 15 rounds of 9mm in my mags than 8 or 10 .45acp any day. Just pick what is comfortable, what you can afford, and what you will enjow shooting. If you really want one of the big calibers, then by all means get one. But practice shooting often when you get your weapon.

Nuggethunter | 05-29-2006 12:41 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Also, 'BUY QUALITY" . Youll probably purchase many weapons, whatever caliber, you'll end up owning them all, buy all quality makes. Glock, Wilson, HK, Walther, Bushmaster, Browning , Colt , Springfield. Mossberg last resort. Wichester lever maybe. Marlin 45-70 marine/guide is on my santa list

wallew | 05-29-2006 01:00 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun .357 Sig. Not too bad of a cartridge. 1500 fps. The weapon AND ammo are a bit pricey. A Sig in .357 Sig is over $600. Then there is the cost of ammo, which again is not cheap. Call it $160 per thousand @ KY Imports. It should be noted that the .357 Sig ammo is NORMALLY about $250 per thousand, dealer cost. OR consider the 'lowly' CZ52. 1600 fps. Used to be REALLY cheap - less than $100 each when I bought mine. Currently about $150 (or less) plus s&h and whatever your local gun shop charges for the background check. And the ammo is about $10 per 70 rounds, 700 rounds $90 and 2500 round case for $250. The CZ52 (also the Tokarev - though they are currently spendy) uses a round that can go through a vehicle, front to back, back to front or side to side with NO problems. Field tested by a buddy of mine when he was over in the sand box. http://www.centerfiresystems.com/ind...ROD&ProdID=306 http://www.classicarms.us/ http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/copy_of_7_62x25.html http://www.kyimports.com/ammo.htm http://www.ammoman.com/index.htm Finally, here's a write up on the CZ52: http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_CZ52.htm The .357 Sig and the 7.62x25 cartridge both look the same. Necked down from a larger cartridge to allow for more powder.

Walter Mitty | 05-29-2006 01:06 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun I suggest the Glock. If your a man .40 S&W. If you're a Women 9mm. I am a guy and I also have small hands but I can shoot the Glock reasonably well. The grip is not as comfortable as my 1911 but I can live with it. There are gunsmiths who do grip reductions on Glocks. That might be an option but is an added expense. If you buy the Glock shoot only Copper Jacketed bullets through it . Copper jacketed! Not copper washed or lead. If you want to shoot lead bullets you will have to have an aftermarket barrel fitted to it that has conventional rifling. Also when cleaning it keep an eye out for cracks in the steel slide rails on the frame. It is rare for them to crack but can happen. There are two main safeties on a Glock. The first one is between your ears. The second one is your trigger finger. Keep your finger off the trigger (this applies to any firearm) until you are ready to shoot. The Glock cannot fire unless the trigger is pulled. ( Same cannot be said for original designed 1911's. But that is another story)

Au_Ag | 05-29-2006 01:10 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuggethunter Marlin 45-70 marine/guide is on my santa list
I used to have a Marlin 45-70 The Marlin was nice. I couldn't shoot it enough to work up a load. Finally had to get rid of everything .35 and up. My shoulder and brain can take the recoil, no problem. However, a minor neck problem prevents me from shooting the larger bores. Had so many problems with my neck, had to give up rifles for a while. Doing a lot better now - but know what to do in order not to aggravate the problem. That means nothing larger than .30. Interestingly, I can shoot my HK91 G3 Clone about as much as I like. The delayed roller locking recoil operated action - spreads the recoil out over a longer period of time than bolt or lever gun - resulting in a softer shooting gun that returns to target quicker

wallew | 05-29-2006 01:13 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Au_Ag Interestingly, I can shoot my HK91 G3 Clone about as much as I like. The delayed roller locking recoil operated action - spreads the recoil out over a longer period of time than bolt or lever gun - resulting in a softer shooting gun that returns to target quicker.
That's an interesting comment about the HK91. The CZ52 HAS that exact same roller locking setup. And this from a weapon built from 1952 - 1954. The made MILLIONS of them. At least that's what it seems like.

WideOpen | 05-29-2006 01:59 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun 1 Attachment(s) Versatility . . . http://goldismoney.info/forums/attac...1&d=1148925096 http://www.bondarms.com/retail/index.php

thorgrim | 05-29-2006 04:25 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by SuddenImpact Canadian's are not allowed to own hand gun's, and it very difficult to get a permit, unless you are police or security? Please correct me if I am wrong. Not counting the Jamaicans in Toronto that have been shooting up the city over the last year, like a 15 year blond girl and honor student walking with her mother shopping at 1 PM on Sat. who was shot through the chest in a cross fire. They Mayor blamed U.S. gun culture in the newpaper article I read on this a few months ago.
Yes you are correct it is very difficult to get handguns up here in Canada. I have a restricted firearms licence so It would be legal. However there are still many restrictions. I wouldn't really be able to take my gun anywhere except the range and I think the barrel has to be about 4 inches. But most normal sized guns are ok. As for the gun registry there has been some talk of scraping it but I think that is all it is just talk. I will believe it when I see it. As far as I know our government is just as bought off and controlled by the NWO as the US is. I am an armored car guard so I carry a gun every day at work and get regular practice even though I don't currently own a handgun. One of the things that really makes me mad is that the government keeps pushing this gun control agenda. They know that the law abiding citizens that register there guns aren't the ones committing crimes with them. Most crimes are committed with black market guns like the murder you mentioned in Toronto. If they ever get around to banning firearms completely there will still be gun crime because criminals don't follow the laws anyway. In fact it will probably increase crimes because then the criminals will know everyone is unarmed.

money matters | 05-29-2006 04:28 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun I would not dissuade anyone from selecting a 1911 pistol in 45acp, newbie or experienced. Nothing takes the place of bullet diameter in the stopping power equation. .451 bullet diameter at 800fps provides fight stopping power with one hit, center mass. Proven since Sgt York's day. The 1911 is very safe, has the grip safety. 1911 is simple, single-action trigger pull is easy to tune if not satisfactory. Cocked and Locked is the way to carry the piece, fully safe from accidental discharge, ready to fire instantaneously. Simple, Rugged design. Parts available Everywhere. Wide variety of ammunition and bullet weights, Colt and other Conversion Units allow .22lr for practice. Colt unit has floating chamber to mimic full recoil. Ruger makes their MkII with 1911 profile frame/grip for similar practice & skill building. Many, Many aftermarket accessories, spring sets and sight sets give the 1911 more flexibility than any other handgun. If you want a pistol that has investment potential, buy a genuine Colt made specimen. Series 70's are in high demand. A Gold Cup is a superbly accurate handgun with adjustable sights and tuned trigger, frame and slide. These will shoot +P loads, but function best with standard or target ammunition. I would recommend flat point fully jacketed ball ammunition rather than round. I am not too impressed with hollowpoint ammunition. Handguns are tools, as was said before. Not many autopistols are well suited to hunting game, aside from .22 autos. If you would take game or deer with your sidearm, consider a double-action, magnum revolver. A 4" .44 magnum has the versatility of allowing .44 special loads which are low recoiling but more powerful than .45acp, and .44mag loads which range from 180 grains to 300 grains in special premium loads for Grizzly bear. The .44mag has very flat trajectory and great power. If you look into reloading, you will find The Way to tailormake ammunition to suit your recoil and power preferences. A "mild" load in .44mag with 240 grain hardcast bullet is cheap to assemble (about fifteen cents ea), and will outperform virtually any other handgun round because it is easy to control and Very Powerful. If you reload or shoot flat point .44special loads, a .44mag could be better than any autoloader you could consider.

hoarder | 05-29-2006 04:37 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun I wouldn't encourage a novice to buy a Glock or 1911 due to safety issues. Double action decocker without a safety or revolver is much safer.

Au_Ag | 05-29-2006 04:44 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder I wouldn't encourage a novice to buy a Glock.......or revolver is much safer.
I beg to differ with you on the glock. Double action like a revolver - with additional safeties - needs no decocker. GLocks are one of the most commonly issued police sidearms in the US, and considered to be one of the safest handling guns around.

mrdirp | 05-29-2006 04:47 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Isreali Industries .40 Baby Eagle...very accurate, very concealable...perfect for small hands...went target shooting with one once and thought I didnt even hit the target...it came back...8 in the black and 3 bulls eyes...friggin accurate...

GOLD DUCK | 05-29-2006 04:56 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun QWAK,Inless you feel the need to conceal, perhaps you should concider a Ruger 10/22 and get a folding stock for it. This will give to the advantage of much more accuracy plus if you also add a scope and lazor sight you have a lot of gun for a little money. True you can not reload but 22LR is the most common ammunition and generly the cheepist too. Most people are not very proficient with hand guns in less they pratice a lot so other than a louder bang, inless you hit what you aim at concistently, it is just an expencive NOISE maker. One other thing too IF you get 2 30 round clips that are also cheep and tape them together you got a lot more chances TO hit even if you are a realy bad shot! Just somthing to concider. the DUCK

Master_Ho | 05-29-2006 05:14 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Au_Ag I beg to differ with you on the Glock. Double action like a revolver - with additional safeties - needs no decocker. Glocks are one of the most commonly issued police sidearms in the US, and considered to be one of the safest handling guns around.
I have to agree here - I have the Glock 21 in 45 cal; and because its far too big a gun for my wife, an because I am a bit concerned WTSHTF that ammo in any one size might be hard to come by, I also have a Glock 19 in 9mm; I figure those are the two most common rounds. But having talked to literally scores of police and detectives, and asked them what they used for a backup gun, the gun I got for a backup/pocket gun is the Lady Smith & Wesson #3913LS in 9mm. This meant I had two guns that could use the same sized ammo. I love my Glocks - and used to go to the range and practice with them often - but my favorite is the "Lady" with the (is it titanium?) sights so we could see what we were aiming at in the dark. And - to address another issue I have seen posted about the grip - I had a horrible time with my Glocks till a gun competator told me to put a Hogue grip on mine - and it was a wonder ever since! They are not expensive, you can put them on yourself and it cuts the recoil down amazingly. After that I put one on my Ladysmith as well. I do think - the most important thing to stress to newbies is; 1) Before you buy ANY gun, go to the ranges if you have one and try them out - what works best for one does not always work so well for another. Try as many as you can till you find something you like. 2) Once you have a gun - clean it often and shoot as often as you can! So many people shove them in a drawer or safe and then, when they need it, its not in good clean shape or they have forgotten how to use the thing! NOW - I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU GUN OWNERS - WHEN TSHTF - HOW MANY ROUNDS DO YOU THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE AND WHY? I KNOW SOME WHO HAVE 10,000 ROUNDS AND I WONDER - HOW MANY SHOTS DO THEY THINK THEY CAN GET OFF BEFORE SOMEONE HITS THEM? One thing I have considered is that if TSHTF - ammo might be as valuable as gold cause people who can't buy any in stores will buy it off you and pay top dollar! Ho

hoarder | 05-29-2006 05:54 PM
I'm a Sig Man Quote:
Originally Posted by Au_Ag I beg to differ with you on the glock. Double action like a revolver - with additional safeties - needs no decocker. GLocks are one of the most commonly issued police sidearms in the US, and considered to be one of the safest handling guns around.
From what I've heard, the majority of accidental discharges by police officers occur with Glocks. Although they are excellent, durable and accurate firearms and with proper training are perfectly safe, I've read that many accidents do happen because of the lack of heavy trigger pull on the first shot, which is what makes decockers safe. This takes it out of the "novices gun" category. Don't many police departments issue a heavy trigger pull version of the Glock? A Glock or 1911 is great if you are disciplined to compensate for their idiosyncrasies. I don't use either because I have so many guns and I don't want different operating procedures to confuse me if I'm taken by surprise (1911) or shoot my kneecap off forgetting about the light first trigger pull (Glock). All my hanguns go bang when you pull the trigger regardless of safeties and all have a heavy trigger pull for the first shot. It's easy to say only idiots make these mistakes, but in real life perpetrators might not look like a threat until they are 2 feet from you or they might catch you when you're asleep. You might have to defend yourself when you are incapacitated in some manner....wounded, sick, whatever. Don't assume you will always be as alert and capable as you are right now sitting in front of your computer. We all have our stupid moments (yes, even me). Those of us who often carry revolvers are better off with autos that operate the same. IMO, if you carry a Glock or 1911, make it your only gun. That ought to get the flames roaring!!

Master_Ho | 05-29-2006 06:04 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan IMO, one should have a minimum of 5,000 rounds of each caliber one has, and if one has multiple guns in one caliber, possibly more, according to how the spirit moves you. Indeed, I suggest you buy your ammo by the case at the best prices for the best ammo. If one has a .22 (and one should, IMO), then 10k - 20k rounds of .22LR (or more) is sufficient. Wolf .22 ammo is a good choice. It isn't simply a matter of how many shots one can expect to get off before one gets taken out. It is possible one may be 'taken out' without even firing a shot if one is not careful. :frown: In order to remain proficient, it is necessary to target practice regularly. Naturally this is most economically achieved with a .22 handgun or rifle. A lot of ammo can be burned up in target practice sessions (several hundred rounds a year). One still needs to maintain proficiency if one owns a centerfire pistol, revolver, or rifle, therefore that centerfire ammo is going to be used up accordingly, maybe few hundred rounds a year, depending (that's why most practice/target shooting is best done with a .22). I would suggest one think in terms of 'lifetime supply' with respect to one's ammo needs. Some veiw bartering ammo as an unwise choice in a TEOTWAWKI scenario 'cause it may get returned to you in a smaller, hotter, and faster version. This is strictly something one would have to work out for one's self depending upon one's environment and how one is moved by the spirit. I hope to be surrounded by like-minded self-sufficient, self-reliant types and in that case I am most likely to just supply them with what they need should the need arise.
Good points all - I buy my practice ammo at the range when I go shooting so I was not thinking about the ammo for that - just for protecting my family, self and property.

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- Survival Prep (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=141)
- - Thinking of buying a handgun (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=37425)

Au_Ag | 05-29-2006 06:06 PM
Re: I'm a Sig Man Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder That ought to get the flames roaring!!
not from me. we all have opinions, some are different than others.

Mercury Rising | 05-29-2006 06:17 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Go BIG if youre gonna get one. I picked this up for $975 bucks last weekend with 3000 rounds...you just gotta know where to go... make friends with your local pawn shop owner.

Master_Ho | 05-29-2006 06:23 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Rising Go BIG if youre gonna get one. I picked this up for $975 bucks last weekend with 3000 rounds...you just gotta know where to go... make friends with your local pawn shop owner.
Thats a lot to pay for a giant font..........not sure how many you can fight off with it! :haha:

Mercury Rising | 05-29-2006 06:24 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun forgot to attach it!..it is solid gold! and the bullets are to!:D

Silver Scout | 05-29-2006 06:25 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho Thats a lot to pay for a giant font..........not sure how many you can fight off with it! :haha:
lmao!!! :haha: :haha:

Master_Ho | 05-29-2006 06:26 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Rising forgot to attach it!..it is solid gold! and the bullets are to!:D
WOW! What make is it? And do you go get the bullets back after you shoot someone with them? At least the Lone Ranger only shot silver - tho in todays market he'd have sent Tonto to collect them! Ho

Master_Ho | 05-29-2006 06:43 PM
Re: I'm a Sig Man Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan From the perspective of someone with considerable time and training, there is no such thing as an 'accidental' discharge. These incidents are really negligent discharges from my perspective, but then I'm really a hard-ass in these matters.
As am I and all handgun owners should be!!!! When I took my gunhandling class the first thing we were told was everytime you are handed a gun - regardless of what you are told - check and make sure it is not loaded! So I asked - why do so many people get shot when they clean their guns and he said - cause they do not check to make sure its not loaded! A gun is a tool but a very dangerous tool at that - and anyone who isn't diligent and hard-assed about how they handle and use the weapon, IMO, is just asking for trouble and probably shouldn't have one! Ho

hoarder | 05-29-2006 06:49 PM
Re: I'm a Sig Man Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan From the perspective of someone with considerable time and training, there is no such thing as an 'accidental' discharge. These incidents are really negligent discharges from my perspective, but then I'm really a hard-ass in these matters.
I predicted a reply of that sort, but remember the discussion was in the context of recommending a firearm for a novice, as well as needing to use a firearm when you are not at your physical or mental best. Never shoot a firearm when you are drunk, instead lay there drunk while someone shoots you (I don't drink).

Master_Ho | 05-29-2006 06:52 PM
Re: I'm a Sig Man Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder Never shoot a firearm when you are drunk, instead lay there drunk while someone shoots you (I don't drink).
Don't most drunks end up shooting themselves? I don't drink either.....tho you can't always tell from my typing! :afraid:

Silver Scout | 05-29-2006 06:54 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun i play call of duty II on the xbox 360. the U.S. grease gun, british BMG, and the thompson machine guns are the kewlest. u should get one of those

hoarder | 05-29-2006 07:38 PM
Re: I'm a Sig Man Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan As for this "needing to use a firearm when you are not at your physical or mental best", please enlighten me as such instances elude me.
You have lost blood from a gunshot wound yesterday and have fallen asleep from exaustion, you wake up to find the assailant nearby. You are returning home from the hospital and are under heavy sedation, daughter is driving, you can barely think, carjacker opening the door to your vehicle. You worked your tail off all day and that evening you went to sleep....deeeep sleep. Sound of scumbag going thru your belongings wakes you up and he notices you're moving... You get in a wreck in a remote area. Unbeknownst to you the vehicle that ran into you is stolen and the driver now wants yours. You got banged around pretty bad and are trying to figure out where you are. Mr grand theft auto is walking towards you "are you all right?" just before he kicks you in the head. Should I go on? Imagine the Glock is in you're waistband and your head and hand is injured you grab it and shoot your thigh, Imagine an assailant 2 feet away and you don't have your hand all the way around the 1911 you're drawing because you are trying to snick off the safety...pretty easy to knock it out of your hand.

hoarder | 05-29-2006 08:21 PM
Re: I'm a Sig Man Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan And your point is...not to carry a 'dangerous' gun???
No. All guns are dangerous. Some or more dangerous to the owner than others. Do not recommend the latter to novices. Quote:
An interesting thing - you don't see the folks who 'race' guns using double action pistols, the vast majority use some 1911 variant. It is all a matter of personal opinion and preference. Like I posted earlier, YMMV.
If I "raced" guns I wouldn't be taking into consideration scanarios like the one I mentioned earlier: "but in real life perpetrators might not look like a threat until they are 2 feet from you " Defense scenarios differ from competitive ones. The less time it takes to press your gun into action in the least time and with the least probability of something going wrong.....is something to take into consideration.

MarinePride | 05-29-2006 08:28 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Buy a handgun that is affordable to practice with. If you've never done this before you will need a lot of practice to get good and if you have the practice will keep your skills sharp. I'm gonna recommend a high capacity 9mm. A 9mm is cheap enough to practice with, about 1/2 the cost of a .45 ACP. The key thing is to be familiar with the gun and learning how to shoot it fast and accurately. This takes a lot of practice and will be a learning process if you havn't trained to do it. If you carry concealed, a Glock 19 is a good choice, you get 15 rds. Shot placement is the key here. That's why you have to be accurate under pressure. My personal carry gun changes with the season. In the winter I carry a Sig Pro 2340 in 357 SIG. In the summer I carry a Taurus 650, .357 Magnum with a 2" barrel, only 5 shots, but that's the price for concealability in shorts and a t shirt. Whatever you get, practice a lot to get a feel for the guns reliability. Learn how to clear jams in an autoloader. For self defense there are some real good loadings for the 9mm these days. I prefer 124 gr. JHP's manufactured by Speer or Hornady.

Master_Ho | 05-29-2006 08:45 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun REPOSTING CAUSE MY FOLLOW-UP QUESTION GOT LOST WAY DOWN IN THE MIX............> NOW - I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU GUN OWNERS - WHEN TSHTF - HOW MANY ROUNDS DO YOU THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE AND WHY? I KNOW SOME WHO HAVE 10,000 ROUNDS AND I WONDER - HOW MANY SHOTS DO THEY THINK THEY CAN GET OFF BEFORE SOMEONE HITS THEM? One thing I have considered is that if TSHTF - ammo might be as valuable as gold cause people who can't buy any in stores will buy it off you and pay top dollar!

Alric | 05-29-2006 09:05 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun I can see 10,000 rounds if you plan on practicing a lot with your gun. If your not going to practice you only need like 200.

1919A6 | 05-29-2006 09:20 PM
Barney Fife had only one round and he kept it in his shirt pocket!

Prometheus | 05-29-2006 09:24 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun How many rounds is kinda like what kind of gun... What are you expecting? For me? I am expecting that if everything stays status quo until I die, then I'll only need ammo to practice. Thats alot, I like to shoot. I bought just over 3k rounds of 8mm mauser for the one milsurp rifle I own. Lots of ppl think thats "way too much for only one gun, and a bolt action at that!" I fire about 300 rounds of 8mm a year... thats only 10 years worth of ammo for that gun. 3k doesn't seem like so much anymore does it? If SHTF then all I have is what I have. I don't expect to shoot 3k rounds in a fire fight. Doubtful it'd even be 300. But if I need it because the homestead is being attacked every 30 days, I'll be damn glad I prep'ed for more than 1 firefight. ---No I'm not planning on defending with a 8mm mauser. However considering it's 3k rounds of steel core AP, it has it's place for shooting thru things. Main pistol ammo would be atleast 2k rounds. That way you don't have to buy ammo everytime you practice (although you should), and if things ever get that bad you can also hunt with your pistol should you run out of rifle ammo. For me, it's alot more, 9mm is my 'bug out caliber' even though I carry a .45acp daily. 9mm covers about everything I want in a bugout pistol... cheap ammo, decent caliber, my wife (and soon kids) can shoot 9mm, my wife loves (and carries a 9mm) I use 9mm as my pistolc caliber carbine... at 11-12 cents a round for ball ammo, I can lay in a good supply. At 16 cents a round for hollowpoints I can lay in a good supply of those as well. I'd have half as much cached if I choose .45 That and .45acp just can't keep up with 9mm at any decent range (my personal opinion). Rifles you really need atleast 2k+ for the main battle. .22lr is a great small game getter and so cheap I can't understand why anyone wouldn't have atleast 10k rounds on hand. 10k rounds can be bought for UNDER 200 bucks. You'd spend 210 bucks on a case of .45acp hollow points. Heck I shoot 5-6k rounds of .22lr every year. having 10k rounds on hand is barely 2 years worth of ammo :cool2:

wallew | 05-30-2006 12:40 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun I feel compelled to address a few issues. First, someone said reloading a .44 mag was about 15 cents a round. ONLY the first time because you have to purchase the brass. Once you have done that, all you need from then on is powder, bullet and primer. And of course your reloading device. Powder, bullet and primer should cost you no more than about 6 - 8 cents per round. Less if you make your own bullets as you can generally get the lead for free at a large tire store. And you purchase the rest of your supplies in bulk. I used to shoot 12k rounds (minimum) a year. I reloaded .45 acp and .38sp/.357 mag in large quantities. Not so much any more. The wife is CONSTANTLY BITCHING that we don't get to the range enough any more. She's correct, but our days and nights don't leave as much time as they used to. Second, lets discuss 'over penetration' of any target (meaning you ACTUALLY hit what you were aiming at). I guess it depends on where you are. In a crowded mall? In an apartment complex? In your own home out in suburbia? Out on your own ranch where the nearest neighbor is a mile away? All I'm saying is IF you hit your target, regardless of two legs or four it is a rare animal that will 'stop' the round you just sent flying their way. Short of ballistic body armor (now we are talking about TEOWAKI) or some other form of armor, over penetration is rarely an issue. Yes, you should be aware of your 'backstop' but if you have made the conscious decision to pull your firearm because you feel you MAY need to use it, I guarantee you all of these things will have flashed in front of your eyes BEFORE you pull your weapon. You either pull your weapon AND USE IT, or you do not. IF YOU DO USE YOUR WEAPON, you better have a good attorney even if the shoot was righteous. In todays litigious society, someone is going to get sued. Unless you are just a punk criminal who holds his gun sideways cause that's how they do it in 'da movies' and he doesn't care if he actually hits anything or not. Actually, he doesn't think past the end of his barrel and the damage he might do to an 'innocent'. To criminals, there are NO innocents. Just victims waiting to be 'violated'. Besides, if you are living in condition yellow (always aware of your situation and your surroundings) NONE of the scenarios listed will occur. Because you will NOT allow yourself to get INTO any of those situations. All this talk about scenarios, how about these two: #1 Guy pulls up next to you on the freeway and motions you over to the side of the road. He makes a threatening jesture with his hand in the form of a firearm. #2 Two youths approach you and one has his hand in a bag saying "Give me all your money". === What do you do? In the first instance I showed the 'business end' of my .45 1911 Commander and the guy just didn't seemed as interested to pull over any more. In the second instance I stuck my .45 ACP derringer in the kids face and told him his hand BEST come out empty. "We was jest foolin around mista". I kicked their baggy panted BUTTS and chased them for a while down a long street after holstering my weapon. I ain't as young as I used to be. In BOTH instances, I would NOT have hesitated to kill any of these criminals. And just to 'upset' the apple cart, in both instances the perp's were young mexican males. I just HATE IT when the 'bad guy' forgot to pack any weapon to a gun fight. Really just hate that. BWAHAHAHAHA... In a SHTF situation, I would have just shot the perpetrators and been done with it. Leaving the trash for someone else to deal with. "SHUT UP AND KEEP SHOVELING" And as far as Canada goes, YOU GET THE GOVERNMENT YOU DESERVE. JUST THE SAME AS WE HERE IN THE USA HAVE...

Walter Mitty | 06-03-2006 04:49 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun My niece is a novice. Never shot a handgun before I took her to a range. I got her a Glock. #1) If she ever needs it to defend herself she has 15 rounds in the gun. # 2) No Bulls&it hammer drops or external safeties to worry about. Primary safety is between her ears. Secondary safety is trigger finger. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to fire. Tigger pull is always the same. Every time. first shot, last shot, every shot in between. Reload the gun with a flick of the wrist. ( to borrow a phrase from Jeff Cooper) just my .02.

SilverbackAg | 06-03-2006 09:40 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijah Also look at the Sigma Series put out by Smith & Wesson.
Those are the biggest POS ever produced in my educated opinion. I love Smiths but they messed up big time on this one. My next HG purchase will be a titanium subnosed Smith chambered in 357 (5 shot).

Book | 06-03-2006 09:57 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun 1 Attachment(s) Attachment 15262 For concealed carry I have been very happy with my Kahr P9. 7+1 9mm in the smallest 9mm pistol available. Glock when concealment is not important. :rolleyes:

Master_Ho | 06-03-2006 10:11 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Book Attachment 15262 For concealed carry I have been very happy with my Kahr P9. 7+1 9mm in the smallest 9mm pistol available. Glock when concealment is not important. :rolleyes:
When I bought my two Glocks (45 cal & 9mm) I asked dozens of police and detectives what they used for a backup/concealment gun - and the vast majority - to my surprise - said the 9mm "Lady" Smith & Wesson #3913.......not only is it easier to conceal than the Glock 9mm, the smaller Glock, but I LOVE shooting it! Ho

Book | 06-03-2006 10:31 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
When I bought my two Glocks -Ho
Gosh Ho...two Glocks don't sound much like the Tao thing at all. My appreciation for you has now gone up tremendously knowing you are a gun guy too. :smile:

Master_Ho | 06-03-2006 10:45 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Book Gosh Ho...two Glocks don't sound much like the Tao thing at all. My appreciation for you has now gone up tremendously knowing you are a gun guy too. :smile:
OF COURSE its a Tao thing! I have handguns AND a shotgun! If that ain't Tao power - what is? :haha: Self-defense : Luke 22:36 “And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.” And if the sight of the shotgun and handguns don't scare them off - the sight of me naked from the waist down will! :wink: Ho

Book | 06-03-2006 10:51 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
If that ain't Tao power - what is? :haha: -Ho
:haha: If the Dali Lama taught that Tibet would still be free. :rolleyes:

WAoG | 06-04-2006 01:12 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan IMO, one should have a minimum of 5,000 rounds of each caliber one has, and if one has multiple guns in one caliber, possibly more, according to how the spirit moves you. Indeed, I suggest you buy your ammo by the case at the best prices for the best ammo. If one has a .22 (and one should, IMO), then 10k - 20k rounds of .22LR (or more) is sufficient. Wolf .22 ammo is a good choice. It isn't simply a matter of how many shots one can expect to get off before one gets taken out. It is possible one may be 'taken out' without even firing a shot if one is not careful. :frown: In order to remain proficient, it is necessary to target practice regularly. Naturally this is most economically achieved with a .22 handgun or rifle. A lot of ammo can be burned up in target practice sessions (several hundred rounds a year). One still needs to maintain proficiency if one owns a centerfire pistol, revolver, or rifle, therefore that centerfire ammo is going to be used up accordingly, maybe few hundred rounds a year, depending (that's why most practice/target shooting is best done with a .22). I would suggest one think in terms of 'lifetime supply' with respect to one's ammo needs. Some veiw bartering ammo as an unwise choice in a TEOTWAWKI scenario 'cause it may get returned to you in a smaller, hotter, and faster version. This is strictly something one would have to work out for one's self depending upon one's environment and how one is moved by the spirit. I hope to be surrounded by like-minded self-sufficient, self-reliant types and in that case I am most likely to just supply them with what they need should the need arise.
My dad is in his 80s. He was shooting with us last summer and had not practiced in sometime. He still shot very good. He thought he should have shot much better even with strange guns. He out shot me that day. I shoot sometimes a lot in summer and fall. He also out shoot the other person shooting that day and they shoot a lot in the summer at times. I will admit I got mad at shooting this handgun that I had never shot before and just had a bad day. So I stopped early and let the others shoot. My brother could not have picked up a handgun in years and right off shoot great. Some of the best hunters around here do not shoot all that much. Site their gun in and go get their deer. I think practice is important for most but some people are just naturally good shots.

Alric | 06-04-2006 01:15 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by WAoG I think practice is important for most but some people are just naturally good shots.
Maybe its because they have been shooting so long. If someone shoots for 30 years and then doesn't shoot for 5, he is likely still better than someone who shot for the last 5 years.

Au_Ag | 06-04-2006 08:58 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by WAoG I think practice is important for most but some people are just naturally good shots.
There are some that are naturals at it for sure. Then there are some that have done it a lot. I fired over several hundred thouand rounds as an active IPSC competitor. Haven't done it for over ten years. I not only competed a lot, I practiced a lot. If I pick one up, I'm gonna outshoot by a solid margin most average joes and just about anybody but an active competitor or a really good natural shooter.

Goldfinger | 06-04-2006 11:34 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Well here's my two worthless pennies. I've thought about this subject alot, probably too much, but my SHTF guns are a NDM-86 Dragunov in .308 with my sidearms being a Glock model 17 (9mm) and Model 26 (9mm) as backup. While I still question my .308 choice, the 9mm's IMO are the "no brainer" caliber for SHTF scenario. Don't get me wrong, I personally prefer the .45 acp, but 9mm is much more practical in such a scenario. First off, supplies are abundant. If scavaging you'd be way more likely to stumble upon a 9mm cache than any other caliber. No doubt about it. Secondly its dirt cheap. My nearby firearm dealer sells good quality name brand 9mm ammo as low as $160 per 1000. Surplus is even less than that. So you can really hoard it cheaply. Third, its light weight and easily stored or carried. You can pack an obscene number of rounds easily and 9mm mags hold up to 15 to 18 rounds. Finally, its a solid performing round. True I like the ballistics and knockdown power of say a .45 or .40 better, but 9mm performance is certainly nothing to scoff at. In fact, as far as body armor penetration goes, its even superior to those two rounds. Follow up shots are definately easier to stay on target as well. Then also, if the need comes to have to hand one over to my wife (God help me...LOL) it would certainly be more friendly for a novice, while still being effective. Considering all the factors, there just isn't much to think about here IMO. 9mm is the clear choice. While its definately not perfect, when I go down my check list, there is no doubt I end up with more checks on it than any other caliber. Now as far as the GLocks go, I love mine. I just think for the money, you can't buy a better fire arm. Yeah, if you want to sell me an HK at or near the same cost as a Glock, I'd take the HK every time, but the Glock's quality to cost ratio can't be beaten.

Waypoint-Trading | 06-04-2006 12:23 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Book For concealed carry I have been very happy with my Kahr P9. 7+1 9mm in the smallest 9mm pistol available. Glock when concealment is not important.
For conceal and carry what do you guys think about the Walther PPK/S ?? I realize the round (38ACP) you may believe is too small, but it is a compact proven weapon. Any thoughts? http://www.waltheramerica.com/images...PKS_380_sm.jpg

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Goldfinger | 06-04-2006 12:31 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Waypoint-Trading For conceal and carry what do you guys think about the Walther PPK/S ?? I realize the round (38ACP) you may believe is too small, but it is a compact proven weapon. Any thoughts? http://www.waltheramerica.com/images...PKS_380_sm.jpg
Fine weapon. Well designed for what they were intended for.

Book | 06-04-2006 12:32 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
For conceal and carry what do you guys think about the Walther PPK/S ?? I realize the round (38ACP) you may believe is too small, but it is a compact proven weapon. Any thoughts? -Waypoint
I owned and carried one for years. Engineering and craftmanship is the best there is. I especially liked the safety mechanism. .380 is just a shortened and too-weak 9mm. The Kahr 9P is just as small and light but with full 7+1 9mm. :smile:

REV127 | 06-04-2006 03:36 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun I'll also agree the PPK/S is a good gun. There are much smaller .380's these days, such as the Kel-Tec P3-AT... and there are 9mm's that are about the same size such as the Kahr MK9 etc... but unlike those other two the PPK/S, along with similar guns such as the Makarov and Bersa Thunder .380, can be shot a lot. The all-steel Kahr's are plenty durable but their recoil springs wear out quickly and can start giving you problems, with the micro-minis like the Kel-Tec or Beretta Tomcat you have a gun that just has a limited service life because they were meant to be carried a lot and fired seldom. They're still good guns, it's just that you'll wear them out more quickly. The calibers beginning with a ".4" is a tired firearms urban legend with little basis on reality whose main purpose for existence is to defend the 1911 in .45acp and let people use a relatively high capacity automatic without being made to feel bad about themselves by the .45acp 1911 crowd. The inefficacy of the .38 long Colt during Moro uprising in the Philipines is often held up as a reason why the .45 is better, what they don't tell you is the .30-40 Kragg rifles did no better and the 12ga shotgun was by fire te most reliable weapon against juramentados who bound their limbs to limit bloodloss and took drugs. The Thompson-LaGarde tests themselves were neither practical nor scientific and the only thing they suggested was that multiple hits to vital organs was the only sure way to kill cattle. Actually, a relatively moderate velocity 7.65 Luger cartridge, about .30 caliber, had te best 1 shot stop time, second only to the large sledge hammer they were using to put the cattle out of their misery. Then of course you have the FBI shootout that lead to the 10mm which was too much for the limpwristed FBI agents so they neutered it and made the .40sw. What weapon won the encounter? A good shot with a .38. Shot placement matters more, penetration matters more, actual energy and diamater have little to do with it. If you can't make a head hit, aim for the center of mass, if you can't hit center mass spend more time at the range and in force-on-force training. Shooting somebody in the arm or guts won't yield much more than a psychological stop, and then you may as well be using a .22 short for all caliber matters in those cases. There is no such thing as knockdown power in a handgun, I've seen a man take a point blank hit in the chest from a .308 rifle, wearing a rifle plate, and keep his feet. A bullet strike happens so fast that regardless of how high the energy levels are the force simply isn't applied long enough to move a human any distance. You can talk energy dump, but the only real energy dump is translating a bullet's energy into wound cavity via fragmentation. In other words, 9mm will do fine. .40sw, 45acp, 10mm and .357mag/sig will all do fine, too, but there are no magic calibers, only those which have enough accuracy and penetration. Special bullets have nothing to do with it, a decent hollowpoint like a Gold Dot or Golden Saber are hardly "special," they're actually fairly commodity. It would be dumb to stoke your pistol with poor quality ammo and if all you have is fmj that's fine because what really matters remains shot placement and penetration.

twenty4karat | 06-04-2006 05:00 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuggethunter Also, 'BUY QUALITY" . Youll probably purchase many weapons, whatever caliber, you'll end up owning them all, buy all quality makes. Glock, Wilson, HK, Walther, Bushmaster, Browning , Colt , Springfield. Mossberg last resort. Wichester lever maybe. Marlin 45-70 marine/guide is on my santa list
Hey Bud, Don't forget Ruger. Ruger has made quality (yet affordable) hand guns and riffles for decades. I have or have had: GP100 .357 (and .38, don't forget) Six shot DA 4" barrel revolver. This was and is a good side arm. I also have a 15 shot 9 mm semi-auto. Another good and accurate side arm. (Load with Eagle Claw JHP's). Also, I've shot hundreds of generic brand JP's without any problems). Then there is the .22 Mark III semi-auto pistol ("The Tack Driver"). This nick name wasn't pulled out of a hat! This is not only an accurate weapon, but dependable. (It is also the the wise guy's hit piece of choice). It's also fun to shoot. The Ruger 22/22 mag SA Six shot w?6" Barrel. Let's not forget the 10/22 semi-auto riffle. Just as the Mark III pistol, it is very accurate and versatile. Prior to "Larger then TEN round Mags Rule (here in California and elsewhere) You could (and still can) get the 25-30 rnd Banana Mag of which two can be snapped together so you have 50 -60 rounds at hand. You do need to do some minor smithing to the injector slot (bevel each side) so you don't jam or break your ejector rod. There is also available an attachment for the trigger housing that alloys you to shoot rapid fire as if it was an auto matic (haven't tried this device, but I've heard that it works fine) it is also available for other semi-autos. Edit: I ALMOST FORGOT THE TRANSFER BAR SYSTEM INVENTED BY RUGER. THIS ALOWS YOU TO CARRY AN SA (OR ANY OTHER OF THEIR REVOLVERS) WITH ALL SIX CHAMBERS LOADED SAFTELY! And one more plug: The Remington 870 Magnum Express. A Pump action shot gun (much more reliable and made than the ol' Mossberg 500) Had them both, prefer the Remington along with some Benelli '00' Buck Shot made exclusively for self defense with controlled Blast patterns. These rounds have 15 .33 pellets rather than the 8-9 in other '00'. There is also '000' and then there is the 1 oz. rifled Slug. (pretty good stopping power in this lot). Also, the Remington 700 Bolt action rifle available in numerous caliber's. This is a very well made, accurate weapon. The bottom line is, get what you are comfortable with. And MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL: PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE! Then PRACTICE SOME MORE. I remember one day at the range (about twenty odd years ago). I'm there doing my usual PRACTICE (on human silhouettes). Next to me is some young kid showing his Girlfriend how to shoot (I think that's what he thought he was doing). Anyway, I reel in one of my targets (blasted out the x and 9 section), and the guy looks over and says "well, looks like there's no need for improvement there". I then turned, looked Him straight in the eye and then his Girlfriend (to make sure that I had their attention) and I said "there is always room for improvement, because you never know how you will react when the real thing comes along. You have to make your weapon an extenuation of yourself, you need to know it in and out. Not just it's abilities but more importantly, it's limitations. Because you will not- let me say it again YOU WILL NOT have time for that when it comes down to it. You'll have LESS than 1/2 a second to decide if 1) Is this person a danger to me and 2) Am I willing to pull the trigger and KILL Him. Now, it took me way over a 1/2 second to type that. :smile:

Au_Ag | 06-04-2006 09:03 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Waypoint-Trading I realize the round (38ACP) you may believe is too small
If you're deteremined to have a 380, the PPK is one of the best. Today, however- you can come up with 9mm's that are almost the same size. If size is an issue, at least go with a lightweigth .38 snub, for which you can get +P+ ammo. There are so many versions of .380 out there that suitable factory loads will never be available. Caliber is only part of the equation - ammo is another part. Go 9mm. Speaking as a person who has owned at least half a dozen .380's, including a pre-ban Walther PPK in .380.

Prometheus | 06-04-2006 10:55 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun http://www.kel-tec.com/images/big/p11_01.jpg Kel Tec p11 10 (or 12) +1 rounds of 9mm and "The smallest and lightest (production) 9mm in the world" Whats not to love? It makes an awesome backup. I carried a .380 as a backup until recently, but now I get 2 more rounds and a better round. I'm done with 45's I have 2 of the USP 45's by HK, but beyond that it's a obsolete round for anything except upclose self defense. My primary carry is still the USP 45, but I don't expect to have to engage anything beyond a few yards in a non SHTF situation.

REV127 | 06-04-2006 11:33 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun The P-11 is a great carry piece, that is what it was made for. With a lot of Bondo and a little paint you can even make it not as ugly! :tongue: Seriously, Kel-Tec is probably one of the most inovative American gun manufacturers out there today, unless you count Serbu who boast "more firepower than is reasonable" of their big .50bmg rifles and a have pistol/thing called the Buttmaster... Both FL companies, makes me proud. Kel-Tec has it where it counts when it comes to concealed carry, I still can't figure out why I don't own anything but a Sub-2000 right now. BTW, you can cut down the grip on the Sub-2000 to take the shorter P-11 magazines, and both will still accept all the bigger hi-caps out there. Cool, concealable combo.

wallew | 06-05-2006 05:07 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 The calibers beginning with a ".4" is a tired firearms urban legend with little basis on reality whose main purpose for existence is to defend the 1911 in .45acp and let people use a relatively high capacity automatic without being made to feel bad about themselves by the .45acp 1911 crowd.
Rev, Well said. As is the rest of your thesis. Thx. A lot of folks have died of .38 caliber or smaller wounds. And the info about the 30/40 Krag or use of shotguns is info you will not hear from the .45 1911 crowd. Hard to stop a 'hopped up' warrior. Whether a Moro or a Crip, if they are sailing, not much can stop them other than a hail of lead and good shot placement. Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty4karat You'll have LESS than 1/2 a second to decide if 1) Is this person a danger to me and 2) Am I willing to pull the trigger and KILL Him. Now, it took me way over a 1/2 second to type that.
T4K, ALso right on the money. While I concur that you will have a short period of time to make the shoot/no shoot decision, if you didn't see it coming, or worse could not avoid the confrontation then you are in tough straights. Last but not least for everyone, concealability may or may not be an issue. The larger you are, the larger the weapon that you can conceal. I'm 6'1" and 200 lbs, so what I can conceal and what my wife can conceal are two different hand guns. Same caliber, just different weapons. Mainly due to personal preference than the ability to carry a specific sized weapon. Oh, and for those enamored with the .380 Walther - which is an EXCELLENT CHOICE BTW - then consider the CZ52. NOT a small piece by any means. But an excellent weapon at a low cost (below $200) and generally comes with holster (mil spec surplus) and a spare mag (2 total) and a cleaning rod. It fires same round as Tokarev 7.62x25 and travels at 1600 fps+ .

twenty4karat | 06-05-2006 11:47 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew T4K, ALso right on the money. While I concur that you will have a short period of time to make the shoot/no shoot decision, if you didn't see it coming, or worse could not avoid the confrontation then you are in tough straights.
Wallew, Seeing it coming had already been factored in (I'm from Oakland, I learned that a long way back). However, I should have verbalized that in my point. Thanks for Keepin' Me Honest Friend and KEEP YOUR POWDER DRY. :smile:

Libertarian_Guard | 06-06-2006 12:53 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Au_Ag If you're deteremined to have a 380, the PPK is one of the best. Today, however- you can come up with 9mm's that are almost the same size. If size is an issue, at least go with a lightweigth .38 snub, for which you can get +P+ ammo. There are so many versions of .380 out there that suitable factory loads will never be available. Caliber is only part of the equation - ammo is another part. Go 9mm. Speaking as a person who has owned at least half a dozen .380's, including a pre-ban Walther PPK in .380.
Are you familiar with the Colt Government model 380 ( not the pony version ) I�ve had one not fully eject the spent cartridge a few times in hundreds of firings. At a short distance it is accurate. But would you really want to trust your life with such a weapon? I favor revolvers for dependable side arms. But the Colt 380 is a thing of beauty - - or at least in my eye it is.

wallew | 06-06-2006 10:12 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty4karat Wallew, Seeing it coming had already been factored in (I'm from Oakland, I learned that a long way back). However, I should have verbalized that in my point. Thanks for Keepin' Me Honest Friend and KEEP YOUR POWDER DRY. :smile:
T4K, We've lived up the street (north) from 35th and MacArthur. The wife grew up on Rhoda, just north of MacArthur. I know EXACTLY what you went through daily. If you haven't left, can you still hear gunfire in your back yard on Friday/Saturday/Sunday nights? keep your head down and watch your @ss all our best...

wallew | 06-06-2006 10:21 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian_Guard Are you familiar with the Colt Government model 380 ( not the pony version ) I�ve had one not fully eject the spent cartridge a few times in hundreds of firings. At a short distance it is accurate. But would you really want to trust your life with such a weapon? I favor revolvers for dependable side arms. But the Colt 380 is a thing of beauty - - or at least in my eye it is.
The Colt 380 is an excellent weapon. And yes, I would trust my life to this weapon. My weapon of choice is a .357 Rossi 2" that I consistently load with .38's so the 380 is NOT a problem. Or a CZ52 that is 7.62x25 (another small .30 caliber round). As has been said in this thread, practice, practice, practice... ANY round can be lethal if you can put the round in the correct spot. And I would check your ejector on that pistol. You can have a gunsmith replace it fairly easily and it shouldn't cost an arm and a leg. Having a round 'stovepipe' (not eject fully) is a bummer.

Au_Ag | 06-06-2006 12:12 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian_Guard Are you familiar with the Colt Government model 380 ( not the pony version ) I’ve had one not fully eject the spent cartridge a few times in hundreds of firings..
Not familiar with exactly which one you're talking about. MY guess is the recoil spring needs a turn or so cut off, if the ejector is correct. I would secure a replacement spring and cut some off going 1/2 turn at the time, testing for function, if that doesn't fix it you're only out the cost of the spring. Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian_Guard .. But would you really want to trust your life with such a weapon? I favor revolvers for dependable side arms..
I would not wish to trust my life to any .380 _grin_ It just doesn't have enough "oompmh" IMHO. It is extremely difficult to find suitable factory ammo, and is not a good cartridge for reloading because the bullet expansion properties in most suitable readily available bullets do not expand well at lower velocities because they are intended for use in 9MM guns, in addition the tiny case is difficult to work with. The gun is only half the equation - ammo is the other half. Look at what is availble in 9mm and what is available for the 380. The 9mm is a serious military sidearm caliber, not so the 380.

Au_Ag | 06-06-2006 12:14 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Revolvers vs Automatics - each has their proponents and we could go on all day - my humble opinion follows As to revolvers being more dependable, I regret that is not the case overall at least with double action, once again IMHO. The reliable functioning and easy repair are why the military goes with autos. There are times that revolvers are preferable. I recommend them primarily to individuals who won't practice and are unfamiliar with gun handling. It is easy to open and check that it is loaded or unloaded, whereas sometimes people drop the mag in an auto and don't think about one in the chamber. Also, if you want to load a handgun and let it sit on the shelf for 10 or 20 years, a revolver is perfect for that because you do not have to be concerned with reduced spring tension in the magazine caused by the loaded magazine sitting there for 15 years under tension of a loaded magazine. Reduced tension could not only cause a failure to feed, it would continue to cause numerous failures to feed with that magazine. Harder and slower to clear than a failure to eject. Automatics do have to be broken in (500 rounds without a failure is my personal minimum), and sometimes tuned to the load with a particular spring, etc. However, once this has been done they are more reliable over the long haul than revolvers.

aikitrader | 06-06-2006 12:36 PM
Re: Barney Fife had only Quote:
Originally Posted by 1919A6 one round and he kept it in his shirt pocket!
You got to nip it in the bud...nip it in the bud!

REV127 | 06-06-2006 04:37 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Storing loaded mags for extended periods is not generally a problem, it's the multiple cycles of compression that get you. Word from Wolff Gunsprings, and I use their products in all my guns. After ammo, a gun is only as good as its springs. 7.62x25 is a mighty caliber! I love that little bottlenecked .30cal more than any single other cartridge, even more than my beloved .357mag. I only wish somebody would make a doublestack fullsize combat auto in this caliber... imagine 17rds of this little powerhouse on tap as fast as you can squeeze the trigger. I think something along the lines of a CZ SP-01 in 7.62x25 would be deluxe! Size-wise it shouldn't take more than a new barrel and slide to get it to work in any 10mm, the cartridge length of both 10mm and 7.62x25 are extremely close. Anyway it'd have everything for the modern urban warrior of the apocolypse... it'd deal handily with vehicles or light cover, switch to a sabot to take out soft armor or harder targets, and a frangible or hollowpoint round for taking out soft targets... all in a long ranged, flat shooting handy package. In the meantime I will continue to enjoy my custom CZ-52, after the firing pin upgrade this thing has a trigger to die for and man is it ever accurate!

bl96S5eu | 06-06-2006 06:04 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho When I bought my two Glocks (45 cal & 9mm) I asked dozens of police and detectives what they used for a backup/concealment gun - and the vast majority - to my surprise - said the 9mm "Lady" Smith & Wesson #3913.......not only is it easier to conceal than the Glock 9mm, the smaller Glock, but I LOVE shooting it! Ho
Did you name them ying and yang?

Master_Ho | 06-06-2006 06:23 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by bl96S5eu Did you name them ying and yang?
LOL.....no, I didn't name either of them - but what a great idea! :haha: Better than Bush & Bernanke........... Ho

wallew | 06-07-2006 01:09 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 7.62x25 is a mighty caliber! I love that little bottlenecked .30cal more than any single other cartridge, even more than my beloved .357mag. I only wish somebody would make a doublestack fullsize combat auto in this caliber... imagine 17rds of this little powerhouse on tap as fast as you can squeeze the trigger.
Rev, Actually the CZ company made a companion full auto 'machine gun - pistol' that not only shares this caliber but I BELIEVE that it has a 35 round magazine. And it's NOT much larger than the CZ-52 (hey, the mag is huge in comparison). Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 I think something along the lines of a CZ SP-01 in 7.62x25 would be deluxe! Size-wise it shouldn't take more than a new barrel and slide to get it to work in any 10mm, the cartridge length of both 10mm and 7.62x25 are extremely close. Anyway it'd have everything for the modern urban warrior of the apocolypse... it'd deal handily with vehicles or light cover, switch to a sabot to take out soft armor or harder targets, and a frangible or hollowpoint round for taking out soft targets... all in a long ranged, flat shooting handy package. In the meantime I will continue to enjoy my custom CZ-52, after the firing pin upgrade this thing has a trigger to die for and man is it ever accurate!
Well, I do have the 9mm barrel that drops right in to the CZ-52, and given it's ability to handle up to 1600 fps + from the 7.62x25 cartridge, I would imagine it would handle +P 9mm rounds as well.

Master_Ho | 06-07-2006 06:34 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by bl96S5eu I don't know yours would work as well since both Bs destroy things.
Well, after your post I have decided to call my two shotguns Yin & Yang! :adore: Ho

Master_Ho | 06-07-2006 10:44 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by bl96S5eu Well now I feel like the godparent, can I see some pictures of the children?
Turn the pic around to see the other! :D http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodin...es/512209m.jpg

Master_Ho | 06-07-2006 11:32 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by bl96S5eu Wow they're beautiful, if you ever need me to watch them for you or anything else please let me know....:call:
You just keep your eyes off my wife! :albertein Ho

Wyldwil | 06-19-2006 11:43 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 266775) I only wish somebody would make a doublestack fullsize combat auto in this caliber... imagine 17rds of this little powerhouse on tap as fast as you can squeeze the trigger. I think something along the lines of a CZ SP-01 in 7.62x25 would be deluxe! !
I believe CZ is coming out with exactly what you desire. Just read somthing about that, but i can't for the life of me remember where. However, I could have sworn that it said that it would only be available to military? Is 7.62 considered an armor-piercing round? Why can we have a CZ-52 if that's true.

Prometheus | 06-20-2006 12:05 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyldwil (Post 278203) Is 7.62 considered an armor-piercing round? Why can we have a CZ-52 if that's true.
As with most gun laws, they aren't exactly strait forward. AP rounds are fine UNLESS there is a pistol chambered in that round. then they (AP ammo for that caliber) instantly become verboden... not the actual weapon. Any ammo already made and IN the country is legal to own and use, just not to comercially resell, any new production or importation is then for LEO / .gov use only. To answer your question, 7.62x25 (aka 30 tokarov) itself isn't considered AP ammo, only the steel core stuff.

Fabonz | 06-20-2006 09:21 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 260525) I wouldn't encourage a novice to buy a Glock or 1911 due to safety issues. Double action decocker without a safety or revolver is much safer.
No need for anyone to be a "newbie"......anyone planning on owning a gun for defensive purposes SHOULD go through a good gun safety course before buying their first gun. Fire every gun they can get their hands on before buying. Then after buying...fire the gun enough to become expert with it. Until a person has put 500-1000 rounds through their own gun they probably won't have the skill or confidence to use it effectively. Worst thing is for someone to buy a gun...load it...and put it in a drawer....and now they feel safe. Just my 2 cents....

hoarder | 06-20-2006 10:02 AM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun True, Fabonz, if only everyone were so self-disciplined. One more word on gun selection. Either you are getting a full sized "combat handgun" like the excellent Sig P226 and Glock 17 or something more compact and concealable. So if you are buying a more compact gun ask yourself why. Usually the reason is that either you want concealability or you have small hands. Glock and Sig engineers are too damn lazy to engineer concealable guns so they just chop an inch off each end and call it a compact. These overpriced crappy guns are niether concealable nor do they fit small hands. If you wanted a compact pickup truck you wouldn't buy a full sized truck that the manufacturer deleted half the bed on and fitted with puny tires, would you? No. You'd buy a narrower truck. If you are looking for a concealable gun remember that THIN IS CONCEALABLE, as opposed to short is concealable. Kahr has recognized the shortcomings of Sig and Glock and made a THIN handgun very similar to the Glock, in fact they copied it. If you're looking for a concealable 9mm look at the Kahr P9 Edit: If you are a large caliber aficionado and have large hands, there is no other choice but to buy a chopped combat gun if you want something a little smaller. My advice was geared for 9mm buyers.

Fabonz | 06-20-2006 01:46 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun I was thinking one of the main factors in a handgun for "worst case scenarios" is a gun that can work with any available ammo (correct caliber of course) regardless of the brand, age, etc. My 1911 works flawlessly with some brands of ammo, but some other brands that give it problems. Had a gunsmith "tweak" it for me but it is still a problem. He recommends "stocking up" on ammo and don't switch brands. My concern is I what if my ammo gets a few years old and IT doesn't work in the gun anymore. Or if I ever need to take whatever ammo I can get..... I read an article a few years ago about a gun (I think a SIG) that has a more efficient operation it can handle just about any ammo without jamming. If any of you guys are familiar with the gun I am read about, please let us know.

hoarder | 06-20-2006 01:51 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabonz (Post 278671) I read an article a few years ago about a gun (I think a SIG) that has a more efficient operation it can handle just about any ammo without jamming. If any of you guys are familiar with the gun I am read about, please let us know.
Haven't experimented much, but I think Glock and Sig are known for being able to digest a wide range of ammo. BTW, large calibers in small handguns are much more finicky than the other way around.

Anty Ep | 06-20-2006 02:26 PM
Re: Thinking of buying a handgun Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 278470) True, Fabonz, if only everyone were so self-disciplined. One more word on gun selection. Either you are getting a full sized "combat handgun" like the excellent Sig P226 and Glock 17 or something more compact and concealable. So if you are buying a more compact gun ask yourself why. Usually the reason is that either you want concealability or you have small hands. Glock and Sig engineers are too damn lazy to engineer concealable guns so they just chop an inch off each end and call it a compact. These overpriced crappy guns are niether concealable nor do they fit small hands. If you wanted a compact pickup truck you wouldn't buy a full sized truck that the manufacturer deleted half the bed on and fitted with puny tires, would you? No. You'd buy a narrower truck. If you are looking for a concealable gun remember that THIN IS CONCEALABLE, as opposed to short is concealable. Kahr has recognized the shortcomings of Sig and Glock and made a THIN handgun very similar to the Glock, in fact they copied it. If you're looking for a concealable 9mm look at the Kahr P9 Edit: If you are a large caliber aficionado and have large hands, there is no other choice but to buy a chopped combat gun if you want something a little smaller. My advice was geared for 9mm buyers.
good comments, except it's not a matter of the engineers being lazy. my guess would be that they are trying to increase corporate profitability by keeping retooling costs down. if they always use the same heigth and width dimensions for the slides, then those are two factors that stay the same and make new models that much simpler.

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