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platinumdude | 05-03-2007 11:07 PM
I need some guns For home protection living in the city (medium size). Whats a good weapon? Handgun, shotgun, assault rifle, or 2 choices from the list? And what size? 12 gauge for a shotgun, .45 for a handgun? not sure what sizes come in assault rifles. Yes I plan to go out a few times to the range and practice.

elroy | 05-03-2007 11:17 PM
Re: I need some guns Oh boy, this is one of those questions that will generate a 100 responses. These suggestions will be very dependant on where you live, the carry laws where you live and local laws on "assault weapons". How much $$ you have to spend? You need a handgun to carry and for use inside your home. You need a rifle for use outside your home. Also is there anyone else in your household who can back you up if necessary and what gun would be suitable for them? I would buy a handgun and a rifle. If you have $$ left over buy a 12 ga. shotgun too. Handgun: are you going to carry it or just keep it at home? How much are you going to practice? Best calibers in an auto would be a .40 or .45 If you aren't real familiar with handguns and unlikely to practice very much you might consider a revolver. They are very simple to use and maintain and are very dependable. Good caliber for a revolver is .357 or maybe .44 special. Long Gun: I would probably go with a rifle such as an AR15[$800] or an AK47[$400] type rifle. If you are wanting very low budget maybe an SKS[$175]. Also depends on where you live and what is legal there. Please provide some more detailed info on your budget etc. A serviceable revolver could be had for as little as $200. While a high quality .45 auto can run $1,000 and up.

platinumdude | 05-03-2007 11:25 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy (Post 595807) Oh boy, this is one of those questions that will generate a 100 responses. I would buy a handgun and a long gun. Handgun: are you going to carry it or just keep it at home? How much are you going to practice? Best calibers in an auto would be a .40 or .45 If you aren't real familiar with handguns and unlikely to practice very much you might consider a revolver. They are very simple to use and maintain and are very dependable. Long Gun: I would probably go with a rifle such as an AR15 or an AK47 type rifle. If you are wanting very low budget maybe an SKS.
Will keep the gun at home. Will start practicing at least once a month. No more than once every two weeks.

Libertarian_Guard | 05-03-2007 11:25 PM
Re: I need some guns Just get yourself a republican residential candidate for the yard, no one will come near your house!

Prometheus | 05-03-2007 11:37 PM
Re: I need some guns Common caliber like a 9mm, 40S&W or .45auto. Any ofthe calibers with hollowpoint bullets will preform as intended on a home intruder. None of them are 'magic' and none of them will do any better or any worse. Anyone telling you any different is a drinking the snake oil from a sleazy salesman, with todays balistic technology and not being limited by the geneva convention the differences in thsoe 3 calibers is almost imperceivable.. except in recoil where the .45 makes it harder to get back on target for quicker follow up shots. You need practice, a 9mm with cheaper ball ammo for practice and hollowpoints for defense would be my reccomendation. i own sveral different handgun calibers but my daily carry choice and my nightstand weapon is a Springfeild XD(4" service model) in 9mm. I've got 16+1 rounds of Quikshok fury coming down the barrel and with 2 spare mags it gives me a total of 49 rounds on board. That aught to deter even the most determined home invaders. A shotgun is difficult to weild indoors and lacks range outdoors. they have their place, but they shouldn't be one of the first guns you purchase, contrary to popular belief. I'd reccomend an AK74 (like a SAR2 or WASR10) for a rifle right now. Ultra reliable and minimal recoil. Right now 5.45x39 ammo is selling for 120 bucks a sealed tin of 1,080 rounds of STEEL CORE 1990's surplus. Not only is it a great rifle in a good caliber, it's inexpensive, the magazines can be bought usedin good condition for 4-5 bucks each and ammo is 12 cents a round... you need practice.. ammo cost is also a factor... Those are my recomendations.

elroy | 05-03-2007 11:43 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 595813) Will keep the gun at home. Will start practicing at least once a month. No more than once every two weeks.
If your concern is home invasion, a handgun would be your best choice. While a 12 gauge shotgun is an awesome weapon at close range you don't want to try and navigate your home's hallways and doorways with a long gun in the dark with unknown adversaries. Same goes for a rifle plus you would have the possibility of over penetration of a rifle round.

REV127 | 05-04-2007 12:03 AM
Re: I need some guns You speak a lot of truth, Prometheus. I'm usually a fan of the 7.62x39 for AK's if it is suitable for your terrain but in this case 5.45x39 is so cheap right now it makes good sense for anybody just starting out. You always end up spending more on ammo than on the gun, even when you buy an expensive gun that uses cheap ammo.

MOD1 | 05-04-2007 02:48 AM
Re: I need some guns Try before you buy if you can. Do friends have weapons that might be suitable in your situation? If not, is there a range near you that offers rentals? Way too many choices otherwise. Just my two cents. Take care, Mod1

Darkside | 05-04-2007 10:59 AM
Re: I need some guns If you could I would buy a handgun first. 9mm Glock would be my choice because of their reputable reliability and durability. I live in NY where it is difficult to buy a handgun so I went with a 12 gauge semi-automatic shotgun (Saiga S-12) instead. I am now in the process of receiving my next firearm, a pre-ban AR15 semi-automatic .223 rifle.

mjk1971 | 05-04-2007 11:05 AM
Re: I need some guns Home defense? 12 gauge, hands-down. Get a short barreled one (legal length), and the issue of "navigating" your home in an emergency is made much easier. Put a spotlight with pressure switch on it for ease of use in the dark; weapon and flashlight in one, aimed in the correct direction simultaneously. A pistol is good as a "quick response" weapon, but the shotgun is always the front-line defense. The pistol has an advantage only because it can be readied more quickly than a shotgun from the "secured" location. If you have no kids, or have gun-safe kids, just keep the shotgun loaded and ready to grab, then the pistol's "quick response" aspect is negated. A shotgun also has the "psy-war" effect of scaring most pricks off by racking it...anyone who is on the receiving end of a shotgun who doesn't get frightened from that unique sound is a lunatic. Scaring off the SOB without firing a shot is always better in all ways, especially legally.

Darkside | 05-04-2007 03:38 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 596326) Buying any AR-15 is inadvisable. 1) Notoriously unreliable and requires substantial care to keep it 'somewhat' reliable, which went under emergency conditions one may not have the time to devote to maintaining an AR platform. Also, it is not uncommon to get an empty case wedged between the bolt carrier and the receiver, which will leave you SOL for a period of time - which is never good during a storm. I've a VN vet friend who tells me all about his memories of having to eat everyday out in the field with stinky gun solvent on his hands because it was necessary to clean his M16 at least once a day. An AK on the other hand can be completely neglected, save for the occassional boresnake run through the bore (if and when you get the chance). 2) .223 may have its staunch defenders, but when it gets down to the nut-cuttin' it lacks substantial energy. It's not called 'mouse gun' and 'poodle shooter' for nothing. For a small diameter bullet, the 5.45x39.5 is far superior to the .223 and you get it with the ultra-reliable, extremely forgiving AK action. OTOH, the AR-15 is an excellent paper-puncher, probably the best. And all those way cool AR accessories to dress up your AR...
Well, to be fair most of the bad reputation was from Vietnam and they have improved the rifle's reliability quite a bit since then. Still no where near as reliable and durable as a AK47 though I agree. One of the main reasons though I am getting this rifle now is as a collector item/investment. I'm getting it pretty cheap and its a preban rifle never fired, NIB, 100% condition. I plan on storing it safe and perhaps selling it in the future for a little profit. Though I may buy another AR15- a used one- to take to the range.

andrey32 | 05-04-2007 05:45 PM
Re: I need some guns Think about how the situation may play out. Where you're going to store it for quick access, which direction you may have to shoot.... In my situation, I have to shoot into a hall way down the stairs. I would feel a lot more comfortable finding a burglar with my shotgun in the dark than any handgun. I keep it loaded with one shell of bird shot - as a "warning". The rest are heavy buck and slugs. My first gun was a shotgun from a local sporting goods store. Its a 20 guage mossberg - I call him Blasty. Came with 2 barrels - 18" home defense and 26" sporting. Cost me a whole $250. Great for home defense with the short barrel and awesome for shooting clays with the 26". Getting the 20 guage was sort of a mistake because buckshot and sluggs are very expensive and rare. The clay / bird shot is cheap ($5/box of 25) but the buck and slugs are $6 / per box of five! The reason for getting the 20 was so that my soon to be wife can shoot it. Next gun is a Saiga rifle. Its a California legal AK variant. Cost about $350 but much more accurate than the Ruger Mini. I also want to build an AR15. If you live in California, you can build a legal AR or AK (ask me for details if you like) Guns appear to be great investments. You can get a gun and keep it forever. And then pass it down to your kids. The price does not drop much either. A 10 to 20 year old gun may cost more than 1/2 of a brand new one. (I don't like the idea of putting a flash light on your gun for home defense. Makes you very visible. I added a 5 shell holder on the grip. Thats the only accessory for "Blasty")

melbo | 05-04-2007 05:55 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 596326) Buying any AR-15 is inadvisable. 1) Notoriously unreliable and requires substantial care to keep it 'somewhat' reliable, which went under emergency conditions one may not have the time to devote to maintaining an AR platform. Also, it is not uncommon to get an empty case wedged between the bolt carrier and the receiver, which will leave you SOL for a period of time - which is never good during a storm. I've a VN vet friend who tells me all about his memories of having to eat everyday out in the field with stinky gun solvent on his hands because it was necessary to clean his M16 at least once a day. An AK on the other hand can be completely neglected, save for the occassional boresnake run through the bore (if and when you get the chance).
Your info here is out of date by about 30 years. I shoot 10s of thousands of rounds through a few of mine each year and have never experienced this kind of unreliability. I shoot much more than I clean too. Can't remember the last cleaning I gave my favorite blaster. I would choose other than an AR for a main home personal defence reasons but reliability isn't one of them.

mayhem | 05-04-2007 08:36 PM
Re: I need some guns Little know fact....every humvee on patrol Irak has at least 2 AK 47's on board. Hummmm, wonder why. Also the first guy through the door when house cleaning doesn't have a AR, Hummmmm. I traded my bushmaster for two NEW Yugo M70 underfolders. Bring on the poodle guns. Being a former VN vet, two tours, always took the AK's from the g**ks and used them instead of a AR. I personally put 7 - .223 into a 125 lb g**k and he still was coming at me. Picked up the 12 gauge and ended that incident. The .223 could hit a leaf on a tree and deflect. That is the major problem with the small fast caliber carbines. If you live in the desert, well ok. But if you want to penetrate cover ya need a .30 cal. Now this debate has been going on for 30 years. Look around the world, what is the most popular carbine? Nuff said. m

REV127 | 05-04-2007 10:13 PM
Re: I need some guns I don't need to live vicariously through the experience of others. I had quite a few M-16A2's inflicted upon me. They're a range gun.

Wyldwil | 05-04-2007 10:24 PM
Re: I need some guns One of these threads are started at least once a month......and I never tire of them.:applause_ :clap2:

REV127 | 05-04-2007 11:44 PM
Re: I need some guns Ha! I should know better and stay very. very far away.

electric-amish | 05-05-2007 12:12 AM
Re: I need some guns This was interesting and may add to decision makeing. <TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>http://img.youtube.com/vi/G6BpI3xD6h0/2.jpg </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> E-A

melbo | 05-05-2007 12:24 AM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 596851) I've an associate who spent some time with the Contras as their only armorer during his stay with them (courtesy of the company). Yes, he had his bona fides (I saw all the docs and the photos) as well as being a darn good Class II manufacturer. He gave me the lowdown on his Contra experiences: The Contras had an assortment of FALs, AKs, G3s, M16s, with a few M14s thrown into the mix. His 'armory' consisted of a corrugated tin shed with a dirt floor, approximately 20'x20' and had rifles stacked against the walls six or seven feet deep in the photos I saw. The Contras were lazy and poorly disciplined, which resulted in some genuine torture tests for all the rifles they had. He related to me that he rarely had to work on the FALs, AKs, or M14s, that they were by far the most durable and reliable. He said he spent most of his time dinking with the G3s and the M16s. Once the camming surfaces in the receiver of the G3s got rust on them, there was no way to get them to function reliably ever again, so those got trashed. He did manage to get the M16s back into service, but he said he spent nearly all of his time working on M16s 'cause the M16 simply has tolerances too tight with many small parts and it eats where it shits. And no, this info isn't 'out of date' if one goes and reads AR related threads on the FAL files. If you have shot your AR over the course of several days and not cleaned it you're gambling. You also obviously haven't subjected it to *real* field environments - This FAL was fully submerged in creek water, than shaken off and shot on the spot http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1156373597 http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1156373597 http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1156373597 http://www.falfiles.com/forums/attac...&postid=588030 Current round count without cleaning:14,500 http://www.falfiles.com/forums/attac...&postid=567641 Try that with an AR and get back to us. If you want to see how harshly a tried and true MBR can be treated and still shoot reliably, then go read the Tale of Ol' Dirty at the FAL files (for several thousand rounds it has had a broken piston return spring and still shoots just fine) - http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...threadid=68486
I think you misunderstood me SF... I don't claim the AR platform to be a MBR at all. I prefer the FAL or M1A. (Actually like my Troy Industries M14 SOPMOD best of all). My point was that the malfunctions you stated were VN era M16 problems. I tend to subscribe to Boston's ideals of 'Shoot the biggest you can handle' myself. I like my Barretts.. ;) I actually find the 308 vs 5.56 and 9mm vs .45 debates to be a little old. Shoot what you like and shoot it often.

Wyldwil | 05-05-2007 09:40 AM
Re: I need some guns http://www.ak-47.us/AK-47vsM-16.php Interesting read....

platinumdude | 05-05-2007 12:01 PM
Re: I need some guns I just signed up for the intro to guns class, which includes one hour of shooting with an instructor. It's seven miles away from my place. So if I join, I can shoot more often, like one to two times a week. They have guns that you can try out before buying. So I will wait on purchasing one.

mayhem | 05-05-2007 08:33 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 597104) I don't need to live vicariously through the experience of others. I had quite a few M-16A2's inflicted upon me. They're a range gun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 597149) Ha! I should know better and stay very. very far away.
Hey Rev, that's why I jumped in for the first time on this topic.:wink: Kinda give ya a break. Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 597325) That was intersting... but it didn't seem very objective. Obviously they're not fans of the SKS. However, at $247 each (http://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=GIZ132), the Saiga 7.62x39 seems like a better value than the typical $700 for a basic AR-15. I'd have to also say that they should have spent more time in the article disussing the ballistics (especially flesh damage) of both calibers. I think the AK does a lot more damage on the way through.
Saw the Saiga at the last gun show. Kinda bland, looks like it was built to get past the new and soon to be gun restrictions. Might have bought one or two if I hadn't stumbled into the NEW Yugo M70 underfolders.:s1: I don't know if this has been discussed in the past but here goes. Ballistics gel can only tell you just so much. Using those tests for a refference is limited to consistency and that is it. The 22 cal's short commings are obvious to a thinker. If the goblin has on multi layers of clothing, and maybe a heavy jacket (it might just be winter) the 22 ain't gonna cut it. The rangers in Afg-stan found that out real quick. The advantage of a 30 cal in those situtations is obvious, heaver bullet, larger bullet. Are you going to ask the goblin to strip down before ya shoot him? :wink: Didn't think so. Like Rev commented. The mouse gun is GREAT for the range. I truly did love shooting it there, but I know from experience that the AK is a better SHTF weapon. I have a M1A, all scoped out that does do a bang up job out to 500 yrds, and made the decision to swap the Bushmaster AR for two new AK's because I just might need some help here on the farm, and having a extra rifle that, like a Glock, "just works" would come in handy. On the SKS's. I have a couple of them burried in the forest (probably in Rev's back yard) that I got many years ago. Figgered that If I needed something on the way out of the state they were there to dig up. m

Masonic Plot | 05-05-2007 10:17 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Also I would stay away from Glock in .40 and .45 cal. due to unsupported chambers in those calibers.
Can you elaborate on this. What does that mean? I have a Glock 21 in .45, one of the best guns I have ever owned, have put thousands of rounds throught it without a single problem. Ive seen guys run Glock 21s through sand mud water , run over it with their car and drop it from a plane, pick it up each time and it fires perfectly.

mayhem | 05-05-2007 10:27 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 597735) Bland, maybe, but durable as heck, and made by Izhmash - the people who invented the AK-47. The only thing I'd change is modify the magazine catch to receive standard steel AK mags. Also, I'm seeing the Yugo M70s for about twice the price of the Saiga. That's hard to justify even if the folding stock is really cool. How much did you spend on the Yugo M70?
Well I had 750 in the AR. Swapped for the two New Yugos and 20 mags, so what's that $375.00. I have seen them as high as $550.00 Coolness had nothing to do with it, though the legenth of pull is about 1 inch longer. As best I know there are not many true M70 underfolders in the country, most are jury rigged. The Yugo has a heavier threaded barrel than the others, chrome plunger bolt carrier and bolt. The receiver is also different, heavier to the rear. Came with new Tapco double hook trigger. The finish on the Yugo is far superior to the Romo's. Seriously, I picked it up (the Saiga) and the finish work wasn't that good. Plus the stock didn't feel that comfortable. So you may need an after market stock,and maybe trigger (I don't know if the double hook is standard on the Saiga). The Yugos that we are seeing are the very last of the ones that were caught in customs during the first days of the AW ban. They have sold all (well most) of the parts kits that were available. Getting real scarce now. From here on out AK's are going to be as high as AR's soon. Shoots 2 inch groups with regular Wolf 124 gr HP's at 100 yards. Well mine do anyway. Only time will tell if the Saiga turns out to be the real deal. Parts interchangeability will be a problem from what I saw, but I could be wrong. The mag problem is just one that has to be dealt with. If you can find a NEW Yugo go for it, get the Saiga later. my 2 cents. m

MOD1 | 05-06-2007 12:10 AM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 597394) I just signed up for the intro to guns class, which includes one hour of shooting with an instructor. It's seven miles away from my place. So if I join, I can shoot more often, like one to two times a week. They have guns that you can try out before buying. So I will wait on purchasing one.
Good for you. I think you are making a wise decision. Selection of firearms for self-defense ultimately comes down to a very personal choice and acceptance of a grave responsibility. Take care, Mod1

grizzlyduck | 05-06-2007 12:34 AM
Re: I need some guns i'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest an M1 carbine. the gun is nice and small, very light, no recoil to speak of, very instinctive to shoot, and the 15 rnd mag size is a perfect balance between hi-cap and not being cumbersome. plus it's probably one of the funnest guns out there to shoot, that will make you want to practice more and you'll get better. the .30 carbine round is about the physical size of a .357mag round although a bit lower pressure i believe. btw, it's small enough that a 10 year old child or small female can easily shoot it, yet still easily handled by a full sized male. the CMP has just started selling these for ~$500. not a bad price for a good reliable rifle.

Horn | 05-06-2007 01:46 AM
Re: I need some guns 1 Attachment(s) Don't get a .45, unless you train professionaly. Anything over .357 or 9mm is pointless. Rifle maybe if you live out in the open. Pump action Mossberg shotgun is the best home defense. Remember home strategy is important, stay prone and wrap a corner, preferably with you field narrowed. My Gosh, this is extreme.:bear_wacko:

mayhem | 05-06-2007 09:04 AM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by skytrooper Check out this link http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html
Outstanding link skytrooper! Just goes to show ya the bennies of being here at GIM. Gold to guns in one place. My hands are too small for the double stack Glocks, so I stick with the 1911's. I only reload for target practice and only use a 90% charge. That might not be fool proof but helps. Case inspection and record keeping is a pain but a must for any reloaders. I once heard a guy bragging that he was shooting steel cased Wolf reloads. I decided to get as far from him as possible. When Cooper was running "Gunsite" there was a saying, any handgun without a 4 in it isn't acceptable. :emotions16: m

platinumdude | 05-06-2007 10:47 AM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem (Post 598016) My hands are too small for the double stack Glocks, so I stick with the 1911's. I only reload for target practice and only use a 90% charge. That might not be fool proof but helps. m
What kind of 1911 do you have?

mayhem | 05-06-2007 11:09 AM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 598061) What kind of 1911 do you have?
I have one of these. A Custom II http://www.kimberamerica.com/images/...tom/custom.jpg And, one of these, which is my carry pistol. Tactical Ultra II http://www.kimberamerica.com/images/..._ultra2jpg.jpg Plus a old Lamma that is pretty worn out but shoots straight. Just not safe except in an emergency. m

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Horn | 05-06-2007 05:46 PM
Re: I need some guns I can run faster than a .45acp.:wavey:

Texan | 05-06-2007 10:05 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by AuAgHorn (Post 598308) I can run faster than a .45acp.:wavey:
Then I'd like to challenge you to a race. What are we wagering?

Texan | 05-06-2007 10:13 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by AuAgHorn (Post 597921) Don't get a .45, unless you train professionaly. Anything over .357 or 9mm is pointless. Rifle maybe if you live out in the open. Pump action Mossberg shotgun is the best home defense. Remember home strategy is important, stay prone and wrap a corner, preferably with you field narrowed. My Gosh, this is extreme.:bear_wacko:
I don't get it. I weigh a buck forty-five, and I don't see the big deal about the recoil of a .45. You may as well shoot the most powerful round you are comfortable with that's widely available, as per Boston' advice.

Horn | 05-08-2007 03:34 AM
Re: I need some guns Accuracy in pressure cooker situations is exponential factor to power. Quote:
Accuracy The best duty pistol is also extremely accurate. Stress under physical exhaustion or combat duress plays havoc with your shooting ability. I want the most accurate pistol possible to maximize hit potential under these extreme conditions. This is especially important when operating in an environment that contains hostile and non-hostile targets. A surgical shot may be needed to take out single or multiple threats, without hitting fellow operatives or innocent bystanders. It is also critical when facing a battle rifle-equipped hostile. Every SIG P228 I've shot is accurate enough to reach out and touch a target to 100 yards with confidence. This can't be said for many other popular pistols. The only popular service pistol that beats the P228 for accuracy out of the box is the SIG P226. Table One provides accuracy figures for my own stock P228 with a wide assortment of ball and hollowpoint ammo. Note the total average hand held five-shot group size at 25 yards: it's 2.80 inches. Conventional hollowpoint ammo, which included everything from +P+ 115 to 147-grain subsonic, averaged an excellent 2.60 inches!
http://www.remtek.com/arms/sig/model/228/228.htm

platinumdude | 05-10-2007 05:20 PM
Re: I need some guns I did my first shooting today. Over the local gun club. Took the intro class and shot a Ruger .357 but with .38 ammo from 15 feet. My first shot hit high on the target, the rest were all in the black. Most hit the X and 10 ring, witha few in 9, and one in 8. I know I still got a lot to learn and then start shooting from further distance, but it's a start. Will try other guns before purchasing.

Anty Ep | 05-10-2007 05:51 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 595800) For home protection living in the city (medium size). Whats a good weapon? Handgun, shotgun, assault rifle, or 2 choices from the list? And what size? 12 gauge for a shotgun, .45 for a handgun? not sure what sizes come in assault rifles. Yes I plan to go out a few times to the range and practice.
depends on your experience and suitability for owning weapons. assuming the normal disqualifiers dont apply, like, you're nuts, or your wife is nuts, and hankering to put a bullet in ya.... the big factor is experience. assuming no experience, I would say, time to get some. how would people say to do this? for some of us who grew up with guns in the family it may seem like an odd question. I started firearms with dad and in boy scouts round 11 yoa, and bb guns before that. You might go on down to one of those shops with a shooting range and ask for some intro type lessons with handguns. then just get a revolver or if you must have an autoloader get a glock. KISS principle. for long guns a good starter is to sign up for a DCM clinic. I did one like 15 or so years ago, it sort of brushed me up on what I'd learnt in boy scouts, and had been doing sort of half-assedly in my frequent "plinking" sessions. but if you are going to have a rifle you got to learn to sight it in, to zero it, and it's easier to be taught. if you get the swing of it join an IDPA or IPSC oriented gun club and learn the ropes just having guns is like just having cars. if you cant drive it, dont know how, what good is it just to have it?

REV127 | 05-10-2007 06:16 PM
Re: I need some guns Every word of what Anty Ep just said makes sense. I'll add something that may or may not be more controversial to the subject of experience. Range marksmanship is one, shooting an active course of fire is really good practice, classes are great to learn technique, but at some point you're going to have to get some force on force training experience. Nobody trains by shooting and being shot by real bullets from and at real people, that means you need a simulator of some sort. The military uses an extremely crappy version of laser tag. Better options would be airsoft or paintball. I feel paintball is better for several reasons. For one thing there is more action at longer range, for another it seems to me more people in paintball are sportsman whereas more people in airsoft are weird people playing GI Joe. In paintball concentrate on woods or rec ball, speedball and such is a dumb game that makes extensive use of strategies that involve deliberately sacraficing teammates and making heavy use of spray and pray. It's good to join an open game of speedball once in a while just to get a feel for what its liking charging a machinegun nest and if you learn some tactics and techniques you won't have any real problems competing in that arena. That's the real point in this anyway, to test yourself against others. It's sparring but with guns. The main thing airsoft has to reccomend it is you can easily get a close approximation of most real guns. That isn't as useful as it sounds but it can be good for backyard practice. Without force on force training you can't really consider yourself trained. It's like learning the technical side of boxing but never getting in the ring with an opponent. Sure you're good at punching an inaminate bag, but how are you against the living? Or you could pretend owning a gun makes you superman. I'm not here to change anybody's world view.

platinumdude | 05-10-2007 10:28 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 602798) You might go on down to one of those shops with a shooting range and ask for some intro type lessons with handguns. then just get a revolver or if you must have an autoloader get a glock. KISS principle.
Yeah, from my last post I mention I went to a shooting range in an intro class. I did like the Ruger revolver SP101 I used (5 round). I think I might buy that versus and autloader. I guess the only disadvantage to a revolver is the number of shots per load. But I don't plan on getting in a big shootout anways.

REV127 | 05-10-2007 10:37 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 603046) I guess the only disadvantage to a revolver is the number of shots per load. But I don't plan on getting in a big shootout anways.
The only flaw with that logic is that pretty much any shootout you may ever be involved in will be unplanned. Just like you can't pick when or where you will be randomly attacked you don't get to pick how many rounds will be required to solve the scenario. Bear in mind that a little more than half of all violent encounters these days involve 2 or more badguys and you're going to miss several times. That said the right revolver is still servicable for many tasks. I keep a .357mag for a car gun in addition to the concealed autoloaders my wife and I carry on our persons. The reason is pretty straight forward, the .357mag has better penetration Vs other automobiles and won't eject hot cases into your face while you're in your car. If you need a gun when you're in your car then it's reasonable to assume that another car may be involved and you might even be driving. Crossing paths with a road rager or some carjackers/robbers who use the old tactic of crashing into your car to block or stun you for instance. There are many good 7 and 8 shot .357's out there that you could make work if you got some speedloaders and some practice. Capacity is always your friend.

platinumdude | 05-10-2007 10:41 PM
Re: I need some guns Point taken. Thanks.

kolya | 05-10-2007 10:41 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by Masonic Plot (Post 597784) Can you elaborate on this. What does that mean? I have a Glock 21 in .45, one of the best guns I have ever owned, have put thousands of rounds throught it without a single problem. Ive seen guys run Glock 21s through sand mud water , run over it with their car and drop it from a plane, pick it up each time and it fires perfectly.
This isn't just a Glock issue. The problem really has to do with a combination of things. One being an unsupported chamber, firing hot loads and/or firing brass that has been reloaded to many time and has a weakened case. I wouldn't put to much stock into this. If you primarily shoot factory ammo and aren't running hot rounds your chances of this ever happening is very rare and isn't greater because you have a Glock. I to love my Glock 23 and wouldn't trade it for anything. Glock kB! "Respected firearms author Frank James, in 1994, documented a number of kB!s in HK USP .40 pistols, which do have fully supported chambers" This even happens to guns WITH fully supported chambers... go figure.

Horn | 05-11-2007 12:25 AM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 602763) I know I still got a lot to learn and then start shooting from further distance, but it's a start. Will try other guns before purchasing.
I know they say wear ear protection, but you should get used to the sound your gun makes. After you've practiced to a nice 6" group at 25ft., spend less time aiming and more time squeezing and see what comes up. I did this for once a month for about two years, and with that pistol it is like riding a bike now. .357 is a beautiful all around round, though steeper tag then a 9mm quite similar.

Abouthadit | 05-11-2007 12:52 AM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 603051) or some carjackers/robbers who use the old tactic of crashing into your car to block or stun you for instance.
Speaking of which, a good rule of thumb while stopped in traffic is to be able to see the tires touching the ground of the vehicle in front of you. If you can see that then you have room to maneuver your car out from behind the one in front of you. Doesnt solve the side block possibility but by being aware of your situation you can look for a clear side going in. Make it a habit.

REV127 | 05-11-2007 02:31 AM
Re: I need some guns Absolutely. I'm sure you've seen the video made by some crackhead about how he'd been gangbang'n for however many years, basically ranting and raving and then he grabs a pipe and starts beating the crap out of somebody's car while they're stopped at a traffic light. They didn't leave that space and had a hard time trying to drive away. Of course, that's what my car gun is for, too. Still a very good idea to leave an interval. Likewise don't stop in the right hand lane in an unfamiliar neighborhood, too easy for somebody to walk up to your window. I was a taxi driver for a while, got a lot of on the job training regarding how to defend yourself from all manner of threats in a car. There are martial applications for the B pillar. :wink:

Krugerrand | 05-11-2007 03:40 AM
Re: I need some guns I learned to leave the space long before I could drive... think my father taught it to me. It's all about leaving yourself outs (in everything you do, I suppose) while driving. This is true both while stopped, and while traveling down the road. Don't tailgate for obvious reasons, but also try to avoid having cars on either side of you for any prolonged time. They should be passing you up or you they. If the car in front of you has to stop suddenly, or something comes up in the road that you need to swerve around, it would be pretty lame to quickly glance and see a car on either side when you need to jump over quickly. One more reason to not tailgate... so you won't need to leave your lane... but always leave outs/options. Very surprising what some morons will do on the road, so it's best to be prepared. :bear_wacko:

wallew | 05-13-2007 03:04 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 603051) The only flaw with that logic is that pretty much any shootout you may ever be involved in will be unplanned. Just like you can't pick when or where you will be randomly attacked you don't get to pick how many rounds will be required to solve the scenario. Bear in mind that a little more than half of all violent encounters these days involve 2 or more badguys and you're going to miss several times. That said the right revolver is still servicable for many tasks. I keep a .357mag for a car gun in addition to the concealed autoloaders my wife and I carry on our persons. The reason is pretty straight forward, the .357mag has better penetration Vs other automobiles and won't eject hot cases into your face while you're in your car. If you need a gun when you're in your car then it's reasonable to assume that another car may be involved and you might even be driving. Crossing paths with a road rager or some carjackers/robbers who use the old tactic of crashing into your car to block or stun you for instance. There are many good 7 and 8 shot .357's out there that you could make work if you got some speedloaders and some practice. Capacity is always your friend.
Rev, No offense, but I GOTTA throw the BS flag on this one. Also, if you are leaving your residence and have 'packed' your firearm on your person, YOU ARE anticipating a firefight. At least, that's how the prosecuting attorney will approach it. THE AVERAGE GUNFIGHT IN THE USA occurs at a distance of LESS than 10 feet. The AVERAGE number of shots fired (by ALL of those involved) is 3! So much for capacity. Now if you are going to go 'afield' without anything more deadly than a handgun, you pay your money and you take your chances. I've been in several 'tough' scrapes. Just producing a handgun pretty much resolves 99.999% of those. For that miniscule remainder, just remember ONE THING. The only story you want to have told should be told by YOU. That means NO other witnesses, no video cameras running, and NO BG's LEFT ALIVE. It will definately complicate your life the likes of which you have no idea.

Tn...Andy | 05-13-2007 04:58 PM
Re: I need some guns High, high, high, high.....staying alive, staying alive. ( and who said disco was dead ? )

Baphomet Jones | 05-13-2007 08:58 PM
Re: I need some guns Man, looks like I missed a hell of a thread, just my $0.02, the reason I don't want an AR15 is because of the lack of a gas piston, all of my friends from the chair force/marines/army tell me the carbon buildup can be pretty irritating, and the chamber can be tough to clean. But if you had the budget, a barret m468 might be good, its got a gas piston, and 6.8 is supposedly a pretty good round, ammo would be scarce though as car as SHTF goes though. They do make .223 AR's with gas pistons though, I think DSA has a patent on one. When I get the money, I'd like to pick up an HK-91. My AK47s are nice (WASR10 & SAR1) and I've seen some surprising accuracy, but I'd still rather be able to reach out and touch something further than my AK's can reliably hit. An AK47 or 74 would be fine, to back up the other AK guys on here, you'll love the simplicity and ruggedness. The only 2 times that one of my AK's jammed, I just took out the mag, racked it and put the mag back in. I've heard nightmares about AR15's jamming with a round above the bolt carrier. There was an article I can't remember the location of, a .PDF of a guy's experience at Thunder Ranch. He had an AK, I think there was another guy with an AK and one with an HK91, everyone else had an AR15. He basically explained that the AR15s just didnt have the same edge the AK/HK91 guys had, as magazines would fall out of the guns, the wind would pick up and kick sand into the AR15s, lots of jamming, etc. They had their benefits, but the author was overall very pleased with his AK74. He mentioned that while it was kind of humorous to see 10 guys with AR15s charge downrange firing, only to have 5 of their AR15s fail, but it was sobering realizing that if this was a real situation, 5 of them could very easily have been killed as a result. Accuracy is good, but reliability is more important, to me at least. I don't have combat experience, just a big fan of cycling a ton of lead at the range on a weekly basis, so please don't take anything I say as universal truth, I guess just see what works best for you and work from there. p.s., you can cheaply and relatively easily make AK47's and 74's legally for personal use, as long as you don't sell or transfer them (need a license). If you wanted to stockpile a few for a rainy day, that would be a very cost effective method of doing so :bandito:

REV127 | 05-13-2007 09:49 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 604998) Rev, No offense, but I GOTTA throw the BS flag on this one. Also, if you are leaving your residence and have 'packed' your firearm on your person, YOU ARE anticipating a firefight. At least, that's how the prosecuting attorney will approach it.
An Ayoob fan? Legal advice has to be specific to your state and local laws. In my state as well as several others we have shall-issue concealed weapons licensing and stand your ground self defense laws. Castle doctrine extends to our vehicles. Non-issue for me. Quote:
THE AVERAGE GUNFIGHT IN THE USA occurs at a distance of LESS than 10 feet. The AVERAGE number of shots fired (by ALL of those involved) is 3! So much for capacity. Now if you are going to go 'afield' without anything more deadly than a handgun, you pay your money and you take your chances. I've been in several 'tough' scrapes. Just producing a handgun pretty much resolves 99.999% of those.
The last sentence is true insofar as most defensive use of firearms doesn't involve actually even firing a shot. This goes a long way to explaining your average of three shots. Even then, in most defensive uses where shots are actually fired the badguy is more often not hit or hit in a nonfatal way, deaths are comparatively rare. Actually this fact is used by the anti-gun set to create cooked stats to suggest that you're more likely to kill yourself or a family member than a badguy... because more often then not the badguys aren't being killed. A more honest comparison is saves vs murders and suicides which would show positively for gun ownership.

Anty Ep | 05-13-2007 10:11 PM
Re: I need some guns be careful before you go brandishing a weapon. this cat I know, lives in a megapolis, but one where you can have handguns and CCW. midwest. anyhow, coupla boon groids from the neighorhood been harassing him. one night they had too many forties and they decide to sit on the swing on his porch and just sit there yakking. well my buddy's got his 1 year old there, joint custody with mom, she's not there, and anyhow he has called the police on them ten times in the past year and they never get arrested. I told him, always call the cops, but this one time he figured they were tresspassing so he was ok to shove his piece in his belt front side, and open the door and tell em to buzz off. they ignored him and he put his hand on the weapon and loosened it up in his belt. well they went apeshit, ran off, callled the cops themselves. long story short, they said he used the N word, he got arrested for aggravated battery, and the prosecutor laid on about eight charges total. his lawyer, cost him 30 k, got almost all the charges dropped, but the attempted battery or maybe it was intimadation, well, at least one charge stuck past the "information." so, that is going along, no jury has been picked yet, and lucky him, the bastards get picked up on robbery charges. well needless to say at that point they dropped the charges since it was evident that the star witnesses were nothing but human scum of the gangbanger variety. but is that worth thirty thousand dollars?

REV127 | 05-13-2007 10:35 PM
Re: I need some guns Well, if we're talking practical application that's a whole nother story than statistics. I stand by the old idea that you shouldn't draw a weapon unless you intend to use it. If I was going to say anything to the savages on my lawn I'd have a gun but the first they'd know of it would be when I start firing it. Otherwise as SF says, let the cops handle it. You can always rely on the catch and release system of criminal justice to eventually give these types enough rope to hang themselves. I used to live in a housing project black ghetto. The place had interesting demographics, there were very few men over 40 and very few of any age that had lived there for more than a couple years.

Baphomet Jones | 05-13-2007 10:58 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 605220) BJ, a Russian made AK in .308 is available pretty inexpensively. It's called a Saiga. Saiga rifles in .308 sell for less than $400 on gunbroker.com 20 round magazines are available for the Saiga, but they're $45 each.
I actually was about to buy a saiga in .308 for $360 NIB, but I wasn't sure how it compares as far as accuracy goes to the other MBR's out there. I was thinking of getting the 20+ inch model and not the carbine, is this accurate? I'm sure its reliable :D And I saw some 20 round synthetic magazines will be available in july at fbmginc.com. Do you have any experience with their accuracy? If they're close to par with hk91/fal/m1, I'll get one in a heartbeat.

platinumdude | 05-21-2007 07:47 PM
Re: I need some guns I tried the Glock 19 and liked it. I felt the 17 in my hand, but like the 19 better. I haven't shot with the 19 so I think I'm going to try that out before making a choice. I guess I will find out if the 1/2 extra barrel length will make it a wee bit quiter, and shoot better.

<SLV> | 05-21-2007 10:06 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by Baphomet Jones (Post 605289) I actually was about to buy a saiga in .308 for $360 NIB, but I wasn't sure how it compares as far as accuracy goes to the other MBR's out there. I was thinking of getting the 20+ inch model and not the carbine, is this accurate? I'm sure its reliable :D And I saw some 20 round synthetic magazines will be available in july at fbmginc.com. Do you have any experience with their accuracy? If they're close to par with hk91/fal/m1, I'll get one in a heartbeat.
I'm not sure about the .308, but I've read that accuracy tests between the 16 and 20 inch Saiga in 7.62x39 showed a statistical tie. If anything, the longer barrel generates more power, but accuracy is not a factor. I speculate that the shorter barrel is less prone to resonate (the barrel is thicker toward the chamber) and this makes up for the missing 4 inches of rifling.

Anty Ep | 05-21-2007 10:12 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 603051) There are many good 7 and 8 shot .357's out there that you could make work if you got some speedloaders and some practice. Capacity is always your friend.
yep and those taurus pieces are not just crappy SW knockoffs either, even if that's what they used ta be I shot this taurus snubby 357 seven or eight in the cylinder, with magnaport, really solid nice weapon, good quality. that ruger sp101 I like too, they had a three inch barrell for a time, wonder if they still sell that one? fantastic, solid piece. i used to get 357 reloads at the lake county gun show north of chicago, years ago, from some dude from milwaukee who reloaded em cheap and hot as a habanero. wish't I'd not forgotten that vendor, wow, he was great, J and Something memory tells me, but I forgot. 125 jhps just as good as any, sold 158s too, is that the heavy weight? I forget.

Anty Ep | 05-21-2007 10:14 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by Baphomet Jones (Post 605289) Do you have any experience with their accuracy? If they're close to par with hk91/fal/m1, I'll get one in a heartbeat.
does anybody shoot camp perry with an AK? nah. just the m1a/ m14 type. what does that tell you. but most of us can't wring that kind of accuracy out of a rifle. practical accuracy is the thing to worry about. better to get a less expensive gun and spend the money on ammo practicing regularly

REV127 | 05-21-2007 10:30 PM
Re: I need some guns Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 614395) yep and those taurus pieces are not just crappy SW knockoffs either, even if that's what they used ta be I shot this taurus snubby 357 seven or eight in the cylinder, with magnaport, really solid nice weapon, good quality.
I've heard some funny things about Taurus over the years, among them that they are built with leaf springs instead of coil springs. I've completely torn down my pre-lock Taurus .357 and I can vouch that it is all coil springs throughout. QC can raise it's ugly head once in a while but Taurus does have a good warranty and a good Taurus is perfectly trustworthy. A friend had a Tracker was very accurate and had a single action trigger pull that would give a Python a run for its money. It felt like the proverbial "glass rod breaking."

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