Gold & Silver Forum (http://goldismoney.info/forums/index.php)
- Survival Prep (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=141)
- - Ammo costs (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=190604)

SilverCity | 10-19-2007 06:51 PM
Ammo costs Have recent ammo price rises made anyone think twice about purchasing any new firearms? Or has it made it more difficult to sell one? I don't hear too many people on this forum comment on this aspect... How much ammo does one think they will need? Maybe at least one more round than your adversary :D

Mumwaldee | 10-19-2007 06:56 PM
Re: Ammo costs .........................

Baphomet Jones | 10-19-2007 06:59 PM
Re: Ammo costs Depends what you need the ammo for For hunting, a thousand or two rounds of high quality hunting ammo would be good for a long time, maybe some really top shelf .30-06... could take out most things on 4 legs or 2 with that. If this is for SHTF war purposes, then I'd suggest you go with something other than guns. Its just not cost effective for ordinary people to pay out of pocket for their own ammunition. Look at the military! They don't charge them for every shot they fire, thats what taxes are for! :D And if you consider how many rounds are fired for every one kill, you're going to be blowing a ton of money on ammo, most likely in a situation you should have tried to avoid in the first place. My suggestion, learn chemistry! Good ol' chemistry, a wealth of knowledge hundreds of years in the making, from which the best and brightest minds throughout the ages have assembled some of the most horrifying yet effective weapons known to man :bear_w00t: Organic and inorganic, take both at a community college. BUY BOOKS! Invest in chemicals that you can't readily make and equipment for doing what the chemists do.

Randolphjo | 10-19-2007 08:48 PM
Re: Ammo costs Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 788294) How much ammo does one think they will need?
I operate under the premise that you can never have too much ammo. Ever! That being said, I reload 95% my own centerfire ammo - with the other 5% being match grade rifle ammo. I, of course, have to buy rim fire ammo since it's not practical to reload (yes, it is possible). Since .22 ammo is relatively cheap, I would buy a brick of .22 caliber Long Rifle (assuming your firearms will chamber Long Rifle) on a fairly regular basis until I had 5,000 rounds minimum. Ideally 1,000 to 1,500 of quality .22 LR and 3,500 of decent plinking ammo. Also, if you can find any .22 ammo called "C B Caps", you would do well to have a few boxes. They were made in .22 Short, Long and Long Rifle. You can't use this ammo in semi-auto firearms since it is not powerful to cycle the action, but single shot works great. The CB Caps are good for when you need to make a very quiet shot. Indoors, the CB Cap Short sounds like a loud handclap. Outside, no one would take notice. Basically, to determine how much ammo you should have on hand depends on: 1. How many firearms you have, and 2. How many different calibers you have, and 3. How well you can shoot, and 4. The maximum number of people who would would be firing at the same time. So, the answer to how much ammo you should have really comes down to - However much ammo it would take to make you feel comfortable. Back to the reloading. If you've never reloaded ammunition before, I would suggest that you learn. It is easy and in a pinch it could mean the difference between having ammunition or not. Besides the reloading components needed for each centerfire caliber you own, at the very minimum, buy a quality single stage reloading press. With that, you could load every caliber of centerfire ammo you had the reloading dies for (including .50 caliber). A single stage press only allows you to load one round at a time, but the press is small, very portable and more importantly, you can load match grade ammo on it. You don't really save much money on ammo by reloading until you start to recycle (reuse) the brass cases from ammo you've already shot. Using your fired brass, your centerfire ammo costs come down to about one-third of store bought ammo. At the height of my competitive shooting career, I shot in excess of 100,000 rounds a year of centerfire ammo. Had I not reloaded, I would not have been able to afford to shoot that much. Also, I can reload more accurate ammo on my own than can be bought new. Now that I've posted much more than you probably wanted to read, I suggest you look for reloading classes in your area - if you don't already know how to reload. I'm a certified reloading instructor and I promise that reloading is easy, safe (following basic safety procedures), and economical. If you really get into reloading, it can be fun as well. You can develop a custom load for each firearm that would be more accurate than any ammo you could buy in a store. Those who know me know that I'm not kidding when I say you can never have too much ammo. ALWAYS be safe. JR

Onboard | 10-19-2007 11:10 PM
Re: Ammo costs Yep, 5.45x39 is more plentiful and cheaper than 7.62x39. So I would probably get an AK74 if I was in the market for another SHTF type firearm. I believe Rev or Prometheus brought this up. At any rate one of our many knowledgable members mentioned the AK74 because of the plentiful ammo supply. Sound advice I think. 7.62X51 milsurp is very hard to locate at least around here and plenty expensive too. I'm trying to accumulate 3K rounds per long gun and 1K per pistol. This is mostly surplus except for the pistols. Doesn't look like I'm gonna make it with the 7.62X51. Sittin OK w/AK stuff. Randolphjo, I've got a wee bit of Cavim milsurp. I understood this ammo to be boxer primed and therefore reloadable although I seem to remember something about it still being rather difficult since it is milsurp. Any thoughts?

learn2swim | 10-19-2007 11:46 PM
Re: Ammo costs Consider what type of ammo your future enemies use, AK-47 comes to mind...:wink:

Mumwaldee | 10-20-2007 12:17 AM
Re: Ammo costs Quote:
Consider what type of ammo your future enemies use, AK-47 comes to mind...
I was thinking the same thing, but I didn't know Blackwater was using AKs...thanks for the heads up! :top:

Onboard | 10-20-2007 12:49 AM
Re: Ammo costs Not sure if it matters about a potential bad guys ammo. If you're able to take the ammo might as well take the gun too.

SilverCity | 10-20-2007 12:59 AM
Re: Ammo costs 1 Attachment(s) Yes...that was the whole point behind these... The Liberator 45

Onboard | 10-20-2007 01:04 AM
Re: Ammo costs Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 788674) Yes...that was the whole point behind these... The Liberator 45
Is that what the French resistance would use to get them a "better weapon"?

SilverCity | 10-20-2007 01:08 AM
Re: Ammo costs that be the one...:wink:

Onboard | 10-20-2007 01:16 AM
Re: Ammo costs Aptly named. Thanks for the pic.

sluggo | 10-20-2007 06:12 AM
Re: Ammo costs Quote:
Originally Posted by learn2swim (Post 788620) Consider what type of ammo your future enemies use, AK-47 comes to mind...:wink:
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/f2kEg8rEPl8"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/f2kEg8rEPl8" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

mtnman | 10-20-2007 10:10 AM
Re: Ammo costs Quote:
Originally Posted by learn2swim (Post 788620) Consider what type of ammo your future enemies use, AK-47 comes to mind...:wink:
Your enemy uses .223 in there M-16's.

Randolphjo | 10-20-2007 02:51 PM
Re: Ammo costs Quote:
Originally Posted by Onboard (Post 788585) Randolphjo, I've got a wee bit of Cavim milsurp. I understood this ammo to be boxer primed and therefore reloadable although I seem to remember something about it still being rather difficult since it is milsurp. Any thoughts?
Military Surplus brass differs mostly from commercial brass by having thicker case walls and therefore less capacity for powder compared to their counterparts. That means that you can't use the same amount of powder in a milspec casing vs a commercial casing of the same caliber. If you did, you would have significantly higher pressures when fired and could rupture the brass when fired (which could rupture your firearm and possibly yourself). Using commercial reloading manuals, it's a good idea to start with a reduced powder charge (at least by 10%) and work up a safe charge from there. Two areas that can be a problem with some milsurp ammo is how the primer is secured in the primer pocket and how the bullet is held in the case. Usually milspec ammo has lacquer covered primers (to waterproof) and sometimes lacquer is used to seal the bullet in the case (to prevent the bullet from moving to the inside of the case while other rounds are being fired in a high rate automatic firearm). The lacquer could present a small problem in reloading; however, you could wash the cases in a solvent bath using something like acetone. That will dissolve the lacquer and other gunk as well. Always use the acetone outdoors, far from any flames or sparks (cigarettes included) and wear heavy chemical gloves as the acetone is toxic and is easily absorbed through the skin (along with whatever you washed loose from the fired cases). The last thing is how the primer is seated in the primer pocket. Sometimes, milspec ammo has three crimps holding the primer in the primer pocket. You can reload these cases anyway, but it would be time consuming and labor intensive (read, not worth it). Boxer primed is the best if you are going to reload (as you already know). As long as the primer is not crimped in the pocket by the brass being crimped over the primer itself, then you should be good to go. The biggest danger or problem reloading milspec ammo is what I described first. The external dimensions of the case will be basically the same as commercial brass. However, if you use your favorite powder charge for that caliber - worked up in commercial cases and/or from reloading manuals (which, by the way, are developed with commercial cases), you risk dangerous pressures. The smaller internal volume of the milspec case combined with a powder charge that is safe for commercial cases equals danger. It's easy enough to measure the volume of your spend cases and compare it to a commercial spend case. It's possible they will be the same, but I wouldn't dare assume. If your ammo is not Berdan primed and if the cartridge cases are not steel, then the odds are good that you might be able to reload them. Inspect the fired cases carefully though. If the ammo was loaded with a high-pressure load, it might have stretched the fired case enough so that because of the now thinner walls of the case, it would be dangerous to reload and fire again. You can buy (or make) a simple drop in gauge to measure your brass. Bore a hole in a piece of metal that is no larger than the outside dimension allowed for that caliber, drop the fired case into the gauge. If it fits, load it. If it won't fit because the case was stretched too much when fired, discard the case. It never pays to risk your firearm and/or yourself. Be safe ALWAYS. JR

money matters | 10-20-2007 03:03 PM
Re: Ammo costs Quote:
Originally Posted by Onboard (Post 788585) <snipped>... Randolphjo, I've got a wee bit of Cavim milsurp. I understood this ammo to be boxer primed and therefore reloadable although I seem to remember something about it still being rather difficult since it is milsurp. Any thoughts?
You will want a Lee Depriming die and some tool that will remove the primer crimp from the military case. Dillon makes a really fast to use tool if you have lots of cases to process.

money matters | 10-20-2007 04:17 PM
Re: Ammo costs Guess I flunked Dale Carnegie's Course. I have to take issue with what Randolphjo said above. #1, Don't start reloads 10% below what the manuals tell you. Their minimum loads are about the weakest to be safe. If you start under those levels, you might have a DETONATION. This happens when the powder is of a volume insufficient to burn, rather it all burns at once and detonates, rather than builds. If you only have one loading manual don't begin with a max load, and learn what the Pressure Signals are, what a flattened primer looks like etc. #2, I have never encountered lacquered cases. If you are going to be loading junk cases, you will likely harm your dies and chamber. I would not clean my brass with acetone, maybe brasso. Acetone is a very invasive solvent. The fumes are dangerous, contact with bare skin on a prolonged basis can cause nerve damage. I have never encountered USGI brass that needed such treatment. There is a substance called Iosso Brass Cleaner which costs about $10 and will clean brass very effectively. Safer, better, and maybe cheaper than acetone. RCBS and Dillon make an effective primer crimp removing tool. If you have lots of mil-spec brass, you'll need one. You can also uniform your primer pockets with a primer pocket reamer; about $12 for a carbide bit. Chuck it in a drill and have at it. You might consider that Mil-Spec brass, at least USGI, is the most durable; match shooters prefer it for semi-auto competitions. Federal brass is shunned because it is Very Soft, only loadable for 4 times or so before it is about useless. #3, Unless you are VERY Talented at handloading; don't mess with Berdan primed cases. RCBS makes a tool and RWS makes Berdan primers; but unless you are really adept at depriming these things, you will ruin more than you salvage. At least that was my experience, so I sold my berdan depriming tool on ebay 5 years ago. #4, to quote JR, "If the ammo was loaded with a high-pressure load, it might have stretched the fired case enough so that because of the now thinner walls of the case, it would be dangerous to reload and fire again. You can buy (or make) a simple drop in gauge to measure your brass. Bore a hole in a piece of metal that is no larger than the outside dimension allowed for that caliber, drop the fired case into the gauge. If it fits, load it. If it won't fit because the case was stretched too much when fired, discard the case. It never pays to risk your firearm and/or yourself." I don't know what the hell he is talking about here, maybe he means you need to learn to look for incipient case-head separation which is the real danger of stretched brass in reloading. Many older cases were thinner than today's. Typically, a case-head separation occurs from poor headspacing and repeated firings. You will not find such in once-fired USGI brass. His advice to buy a gage to measure your cases is sound. Unless you are a VERY Skilled Machinist, don't try to make one. Your Full Length sizing die is a gage. Be Sure you lube your cases WELL. PAM cooking oil in the spray can works great. Run the case into the die and if you have LOTS Of Resistance, maybe the case should be culled? You should always Full Length size any "strange" cases you intend for your weapon. Once fired in your chamber, then do as you wish; neck-size only or whatever.

Satyr | 10-20-2007 06:24 PM
Re: Ammo costs I have been wanting to get a new hand gun for a while now. Tomorrow is my B-day. So, as a gift to myself, I ordered one of these last Thursday... http://www.naaminis.com/pix/mmtNEW.jpg Mini-Master Specifications: Caliber: .22 Magnum or .22 Long Rifle Capacity: 5 Material: 17-4 pH stainless steel Barrel Length: 4" Overall Length: 7 7/8" Overall Height: 3 5/8" Width: 7/8" Weight: 10.7 oz. unloaded SRP w/Fixed Sights: $272.00 SRP w/Adjustable Sights: $301.00 The ammo is fairly cheap and I have read nothing but great reviews for this piece. I was thinking about something larger.....like an AR-15 :s9:! But, price is a factor. Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumwaldee (Post 788303) I am thinking to buy a .22 rifle/pistol to plink with and stash the big guns...breaking them out occasionally to reminisce about the good old days.
My thoughts exactly.

SilverCity | 10-20-2007 08:59 PM
Re: Ammo costs I have reloaded for a good 25+ years. Several types of rifles, lots of pistols, a little shotgun... Cost and availability of certain caliber bullets and components has risen sharply, so I question whether the 1/3 cost to reload is still valid today...add the cost of my time and labor to already rising prices... For someone starting out today, who does not have twenty some-odd years of accumulating various lots of brass, powder, primers, and bullets, the costs can be substantial and even prohibitive. Some pistol calibers--9mm for example--can still be found at prices cheaper that I can reload. If you want to learn reloading, by all means get at least one good book on reloading and maybe 2-3 different loading manuals for cross-reference. Re-used brass for autoloading rifles or pumps require full-length sizing, and over-all length is important, so case trimming becomes an issue. Uniforming primer pockets has had mixed results for me...make sure not to over do it or you end up with loose-fitting primers that pop out at the wrong time...de-crimping the pocket is necessary, but for autoloading rifles I prefer a primer that fits snug. In my experience, if you have once-fired brass that has stretched too much...you may have headspace problems...(ie: SMLE in 303 Brit)...get a replacement bolt head (#0-7) that brings in proper headspace for reloading or you will start popping heads and need a case extraction tool... Reloading can be very rewarding, accuracy-wise, but daunting if you try to reload for several different types of firearms...take the time to do it properly and safely for each.

money matters | 10-21-2007 12:35 PM
Re: Ammo costs SilverCity, A few years back, I finally decided to learn to cast bullets. I bought several Lee molds in `91 and just never used them. For $15 they are a steal. About all you need are some wheelweights, a dipper, a melting pot and a campstove. Everything costs money, serious outlay these days. But you can shop ebay and craigslist.com. The deals on eqpt are out there, Pawnshops, even some gunshops sell used gear they buy from customers. I tend to think that Quality Ammunition is better handloaded than purchased. Try buying 100rds of .338 Rem Ultra Mag loaded with a premium bullet; $75/20 is likely cheap, these days. The guys who began before we did got cheaper deals than we did. Inflation has been going on all our lifetimes, Fed excise taxes come & go, and metals prices always seem to rise. Yet there are more custom bulletmakers and manufacturers than ever before. Cast bullets are a great way to save money and shoot more accurately. I know that shooting .44mag factory loads really beats up my hands after about 30 rds. Other than for killing a Brown Bear, who "needs" a max-load? I can buy a box of 500 lead SWC .430 bullets for $50 (or cast them in 8 hours), 500 primers for $10, $21 to buy an lb of powder and load 10 grains of Unique and still have enough powder left to do another 200 rds. Once-fired brass is $10/100 or less. Compare that to Federal American Eagle at $30/50 and it costs me $5 to handload my 50 if I already have the brass, $10 total if I have to buy the brass. Handloading tools and components are an essential for any gunowner concerned with preparedness.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:13 AM. |

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright = None use it and Link to GIM