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Twisted Avatar | 12-31-2008 01:52 PM
The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? Two Letters Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? Sir, College is alarmingly pricey. As a child of the 1970s, I grew up understanding that you either got a useful degree or paid your own way. I contend that the most useful education currently is learning a trade. Welding, auto repair or electrician's certification will pay the bills through the rough times as people choose to repair instead of purchase. As times get better, some of those trade school credits may transfer to a college and you are on your way. What is that architecture degree, but about a year of drafting plus three tortuous years of art...the discovery of use of light and space...with a dash of engineering. One of the coolest people I know, was a blacksmith who got his doctorate in physical chemistry. You never know where your trade may take you. Art comes in many mediums that must be learned such as welding for those grand sculptures that grace the lawns of universities and corporations. Get the "practicals" under your belt first, while you make a few bucks or barter for your dinner. Don't forget that the library is free. You should know your reference librarian as she hold the key to all knowledge or can borrow it from another library for you. Read. Read everything you can get your hands on. As you head off to college: Find out all the required courses for your degree. Does your college allow "testing out" of any subjects? The last I checked it cost about $75 average to test completely out of 3 or 4 credit courses. Testing out may not be an option for "required for major" courses. If you are still in high school, go for every advanced placement (AP) for college credit course you dare. So as you plod away learning your trade that is only vaguely related to you dream degree, remember: we do what we have to do so that eventually we can do what we want to do. Now, who is gonna come fabricate some new tines for my tiller? - The Accidental Survivalist Sir: For more than 20 years I have volunteered my time with unemployed US scientists, engineers, and computer professionals. Based upon my experiences, I suggest that young people 1) attempt to have a trade under their belt before they get a four year college degree; 2) preferably pick a college major that will allow one to work for oneself and not as a mere employee; 3) consider mixing two majors such as getting a teaching certificate and forensic accounting as this might give one two options for a career. If the student is not committed to college or unsure what to major in, consider attending a community college first as it is less expensive. Learning something either in college or via the trade pre-college that is hands-on work such as plumbing, construction, roofing, carpentry, welding, aquaculture (fish farming) , farm management, get commercial driver's license, learn to drive farm equipment, learn to repair things -- electronics, washers/dryers, etc. Some high schools have working relationships with community colleges where a high school student can take college courses while still in high school thus saving lots of money while living at home. Some schools will allow students to attend high school part time and learn a trade at the local community college at the same time. Many high tech professionals in the USA have been told by college career counselors after the student graduated with his degree in chemistry, physics, engineering, or computer science that he should consider that degree as nothing more than a 'hobby'. Kind of a fun mental exercise but it was foolish of the student to expect to have dreamed of a career in that field. What you are looking for is a skill (or skills) that allow you to be self-employed. If the young person is in college, they should focus on skills that will make them more marketable -- oral communication skills, writing, bookkeeping (useful for one's own business), marketing, solid basic math and computer skills. Having a degree in the medical profession may or may not make one employable -- I have read of dentists and physicians who were unemployed during the Great Depression. It is possible that cosmetic surgeons might be in high demand if there are wars as the victims (military/civilian) may need reconstructive surgery. Health care professions are still probably a good bet but it doesn't guarantee a career or stable income. Case in point: I have a friend whose brother-in-law in California is an allergist and is now closing his practice because he can't making a living in this specialty. He is dropping down to become a Physician's Assistant (PA) and will work for his wife who is also a physician. He, however, cannot afford to maintain the cost of his license as an allergist with fewer people willing to see an allergist in an economic recession. Princeton University economist, Alan Blinder (do an Internet search to read his international presentations) has stated that young Americans should not waste their time and money (paraphrasing) on a four year college degree. Instead, American youth should be learning trades that cannot be off-shored. (Unfortunately, he doesn't raise concerns about the importation of cheap labor.) One should strive to have a college education that is debt free. No one knows what the future holds and graduating with an educational debt for a degree that may or may not provide a job (no longer a career) is a tremendous burden for a young person to enter the adult world with. When looking for a summer job or working during college -- try to pass on the burger flipping jobs and look for work in something where one can enhance a skill such a learning how to pump out septic systems, car parts shop, working on a dairy farm, landscaping, etc. I do think that having a college degree is valuable to one's personal understanding of the world but it is not necessarily essential these days to earn a living. I would urge young people, if possible, to complete a four year degree but not having one is not a sign of failure. Finally, I also urge parents to help their children to learn basic life skills -- how to manage the home budget, cooking skills, gardening, car repairs; as well as learning to be happy and enjoy life. Learn to sing, dance, play some musical instrument, juggle, something to bring happiness to oneself and to others. This might sound like it is off topic, but when one is unemployed if you have these inner resources to pull upon it can literally be life saving.- Cynthia W. (An informed American on jobs and education) http://www.survivalblog.com/

RiverRat | 12-31-2008 03:23 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? :553: Bottom line ? At this point the US economy and our government are hell bent to export all jobs to cheaper labor markets. Medical and Educational fields will not survive as some are finding out. When it's cheaper for the US insurance companies to put a patient on an airplane and fly him/her round trip to India for a gall bladder operation at a 70% savings in total expenses it doesn't take a genius to figure out the US medical fields are in for permanent and severe demand reductions that will insure a fast ticket to permanent unemployment. Education is already importing and hiring foreign teachers in many states at a third of the cost of US salaries and the trend is escalating as we speak. Lot's of ifs amigos trying to read the old crystal ball,but one thing you can bet on. Jobs that you think can't be replaced because of global logistics or are immune from international competition will disappear like magic right before your eyes,so plan accordingly. Most governments try to protect the security of their citizens and keep jobs at home...not so in the US. Our politicians want unlimited cheap labor here at home in every profession by encouraging immigration and international competition to compete with the domestic population. The game plan is to reduce wages nationwide to dirt and control a starving population by fear. Laugh all you want...it's either that or full blown revolt of the citizens,so they intend to execute their long range plans in small stages to hide the eventual outcome. If I were starting out from ground zero I would skip the 4 year degree and look for skilled sectors that require actual place value. By that I mean jobs like HVAC,plumbers,electricians,welders,cooks,law enforcement (gasp),things that require an actual physical presence and skills that can't be exported or imported easily. You get the picture... BTW: My sister in law says the nursing home cartel she has worked for as an RN for fifteen years is hiring qualified nurses from the Philippines at $10.00 an hour and they plan to replace their entire staff with cheaper imported skilled labor in the next three years. She will either take a 60% cut in pay or lose her job...this is where it's headed people...so choose wisely. An engineer friend of mine was permanently laid off six months ago from a $65K job with a large local corporation and replaced with a guy from India making $22K...he was told more replacements are in the pipeline. IT ? Come on...you've got to be joking. Companies are still contracting offshore IT jobs by the thousands as fast as possible to eliminate on site permanent employees. Welcome to the future...looks pretty bleak to me. :yes::yes::yes:

mozkill | 12-31-2008 03:24 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? a degree in "Banking" rather than just "general Finance" might be good. you could play a part in the new monetary reform. if you can't beat em, then join em.

californiaprospector | 12-31-2008 04:12 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat (Post 1489530) At this point the US economy and our government are hell bent to export all jobs to cheaper labor markets. Medical and Educational fields will not survive as some are finding out.
That's correct, but not for the reasons you listed. In 2010, America will have a "Universal Healthcare Plan." It's terms will be simple: You're sick? Too bad! You're dying? Guess you better make peace with God. The multi-billion dollar "healthcare" industry of doctors & drugs & debt will be going away soon. There will still be doctors, but you'll pay him/her directly, probably in barter - and you'll avoid it unless you can see the likelihood of a genuinely beneficial outcome (most doctor visits today are a bad joke & 100% waste of time and money). Ultimately unnecessary pharmaceuticals like depression & blood pressure pills will simply go away - people will shape up or ship out (to the cemetery). Health "insurance" will be non-existent, since all insurers will have gone bankrupt. Hospitals will exist in a very limited form, for those with resources who have been severely injured; we didn't have an ubiquitous network of hospitals in the formerly Great Depression, and we'll see the network we have now evaporate as the majority go bankrupt. Home births will return to being the norm. Self-care will be the norm for everything possible, even if it would be better to have a doctor or hospital involved. Most allied health professions will have no market since most will have no disposable income to fund it.

Osaka | 12-31-2008 04:22 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? Accounting and a trade skill that you enjoy would be great. You could start your own business, employ others (including cheap foreigners as RiverRat mentioned) and manage your own books. You'd get small business experience, from which you could either grow the business or move on to business management in another company or a combination of both.

markt | 12-31-2008 04:42 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? While some may be doing it, not all medical institutions are going with foreign labor. If I had to do my life over, I'd become one of three things: 1. X-ray Technician 2. Union Electrician 3. CNC Programmer-Machinist The first is the most return for the least medical schooling. The second is the most secure of all. And the third is the most well-paid. All three are always in high demand. As it is now I'm an engineering tech making $50,000+ per year. And the wife makes $30,000 working 4 days/week as a nursing assistant. Together we make in the low 80s. But I know how hard it'd be if I were laid off...

Saul Mine | 12-31-2008 04:58 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? College has been a losing investment for many decades. You can demonstrate that for yourself. Start two columns, one for a grad making average income and paying average school loans. Make another column for a non-grad making average wages, living in poverty equivalent to a college dorm for four years, and investing all leftover income in some safe way. It takes decades for the grad to get up to zero net worth! A wage earner who saves half his income advances at $10,000 a year, not counting gains from investments. The wage earner's only pitfall is the tendency to blow all his money on entertainment.

Osaka | 12-31-2008 05:09 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? Quote:
Originally Posted by Saul Mine (Post 1489670) College has been a losing investment for many decades.
College may be a losing investment for average people. If you go to college because mom and dad are paying and spend 4 years partying, you're obviously wasting a ton of money. However, if you are very intelligent and motivated, college and grad school are huge career boosters, which as investments pay a very high rate of return.

PatColo | 12-31-2008 05:37 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? I've often pondered what will come of our universities as the engineered impoverishment of the middle class continues. The obvious answer would seem to be, plummeting enrollment. In Boulder CO, a university town where about 1/4 of the residents are students, the real estate community tries to sell the tale that rental property here is solid/safe, due to the student component. But plummeting enrollment would take the hot air out of that argument. Here's what Orlov had to write on the question posed by this thread, Quote:
Originally Posted by PatColo (Post 364517) Thriving in the Age of Collapse, Part III: What Can Young People do to Prepare for America's Collapse? By Dmitry Orlov September 2006 Life After The Oil Crash http://lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Orig...PartThree.html (Editor's Note: This is the third installment of a three-installment series. Part I and Part II. Dmitry Orlov lived through the collapse of the Soviet Union. In this installment he offers his advice on how young people can prepare for America's collapse. If after reading this you want to discuss it I've started a thread over at the LATOC forum -Matt) Youth The final profile we will consider is of “Steve,” who is 18 years old. He found out about Peak Oil after one of his on-line video game buddies sent him some links to Web sites, which he found deeply shocking. Now he is totally freaked out. Is he about to get drafted and sent off to fight for oil in the Middle East? How is he going to survive in a collapsing society? He works a part-time job and lives with his parents, who take his fears to be the folly of youth, and assume that he will be going to college, earning a respectable degree, and entering the workforce (while going into debt at the same time). Let us suppose that Steve's parents are correct: there will be no economic collapse any time soon. Steve will go off to college, earn a degree in accounting, get married, take out a mortgage on a suburban home, and have children. Now, if Steve's parents are reasonably well-informed, can they believe that there is more than another forty years' worth of nonrenewable resources left at their current level of production, never mind the need for sustained economic growth? As they watch the endless parade of record-setting freak weather events, with fifty-year records being broken not every fifty years, but every one or two, can they believe that none of these, together or separately, will upset Steve's well-laid plans? Even if they feel certain that they will live out their own lives in peace, why should they want Steve to work hard to perpetuate a state of affairs that they know will not last for the duration of his lifetime? Is it not the tiniest bit unethical of them to try to push their son in such a risky direction? And is it not the tiniest bit incumbent upon them to try to propose something better? A Web of Lies One of Steve's most severe and painful realizations, if he is lucky enough to have it, will be that he has been lied to all his life, more or less continuously, by his parents, his minders at school, and even, to some extent, his own peers. If he does not have this realization, then he will be doomed to see all that happens to him as the result his personal failings: his weakness, lack of talent, inability to fit in, or bad luck. Even if he does have this realization, he will find it difficult to live his life accordingly, because those who lack this realization, and deem themselves successful, will try to denigrate him as a misfit or a loser. One part of the lie is that America is the best and getting better – land of possibility and so forth – and that he can achieve his dream, whatever it is, by being diligent, hard-working, and a team player. Of course, his dream must be an American dream – just like everyone else's, and involve a house in the suburbs, a couple of cars in the driveway, a couple of kids, maybe a cat and a dog, and lots of money in retirement accounts. The other part of the lie is that Steve can live such a life and be free. He would be free - to make false choices. For breakfast Steve will have... stuff from a cardboard box with commercial art on it, excellent choice, Sir, well done! And in order to get around, he will have... a disposable vinyl-upholstered sheet metal box on four rubber wheels that burns gasoline, very wise, Sir, very wise! By choosing a prepackaged life, Steve himself would become a prepackaged product, a social appliance designed for planned obsolescence, whose useful life will be determined by the availability of the fossil fuels on which it operates. That these are lies is plain for all to see: with each next generation, people are being forced to work harder and to go deeper into debt to maintain this suburban, middle-class lifestyle. About a third of them experience severe psychological problems. Also about a third of them do not believe that they will be able to afford to retire. The majority of them believe that they are not doing as well as their parents did. And thus we have a three-tier generationally stratified middle-class society. At the top, we have a whole lot of happy, prosperous, self-assured old people, living it large, not willing for a moment to admit their complicity in impoverishing their children and grandchildren. In the middle we have a smaller number of their adult children, running themselves ragged, forced to delude themselves that everything is under control, just to keep up their spirits. And then there are even fewer young people like Steve, just coming of age, and, one would think, justifiably angry with the hand they have been dealt. Few of them are up to the Herculean task that has been set in front of them. Escape Plans This society still has plenty to offer to a young person, provided that the young person is clever enough to know how to take advantage of it. All of this advice falls into the category of “If everyone did this, society would fall apart.” Clearly, this advice is for people like Steve, and does not apply to societies, empires, or civilizations. It has been thoroughly tested right here in the U.S., and has a track record of successfully dodging society's best efforts at enslavement. First of all, it is probably a bad idea to go straight to college. It is best to avoid getting sucked into that pipeline, which starts around the middle of senior year and ends with post-graduate indentured servitude of one sort or another. Apply to a couple of schools, strictly pro forma, to avoid suspicion. Having a high school diploma is important; the grades and test scores are somewhat important. Demonstrated excellence at one or two things is more valuable than a good average. Most important is learning the differences between your talents, you interests, and your expectations. At this point in the game, gaining basic money-making skills is far more important, especially in the trades, such as landscaping, interior restoration, carpentry, house painting, floor sanding, mechanical repair work, and so on, because these are all jobs that can be done for cash. Avoid dangerous trades, such as roofing, abatement, and, in general, anything that involves toxic chemicals or dangerous machinery. Having some business skills is important too – knowing how to deal with bosses and customers and how to supervise people. The best approach is to work a series of short jobs – shorter than a year, learning a trade and moving on immediately, and always be on the lookout for special, unofficial projects. Think of regular employment as good cover, but not as the main source of income – and therefore best kept to part-time. Always job-hunting, switching and learning new jobs, will help keep your mind sharp. But be sure to read as well, and challenge yourself by reading difficult books – this will help you when you decide to go back to school. Once you graduate, immediately become financially independent from your parents. Move out, and work on developing a good roommate situation. Go for the cheapest rent you can find by talking directly to landlords and offering to take care of security and maintenance. Pick your roommates carefully and try to get a cohesive group together, so that you can rely on each other. Do not accept money or other sorts of financial help from your parents. Do everything you have to so that if and when you decide to go to school, and file financial aid forms, you are not their dependent, and they are not expected to pay your college tuition or living expenses. If your parents require an explanation, it is that you care about them: you do not believe that their retirement will be enough to live on, and the money that would be swallowed up by tuition will help. If you have a system worked out for living frugally and making a bit of cash, on paper you can look penniless, which is perfect, because schools will confiscate all the money that you disclose to them. Be sure to always disclose just enough to avoid suspicion, and brush up on the laws to make sure it's all legal. Higher What? When thinking about attending a college or a university, it is important to understand what these institutions actually are. They are often called “institutions of higher learning,” but the learning is quite incidental to their two most important missions: research (government or industrial) and something known as “credentialing:” the granting of degrees. In many ways, it is a sort of extended hazing ritual, where the aspirant is required to jump through a series of blazing hoops before being granted access to a professional realm. An important sideline is sports, and some schools are virtual beefcake outlets, with nary a forehead in the crowd disfigured by a sentient impulse. Excellent teaching does happen, but more or less by accident. Professors are recruited and retained based on their publications and awards (to lend prestige to the school) and their ability to attract grant money. Much of the teaching is done not by the professors themselves, but by graduate student teaching assistants, adjuncts, and various other academic minions. The human mind learns best through repetition and through applying knowledge, but college curricula are structured so as to avoid repetition, with each course designed as a stand-alone unit. Most of the learning takes the form of cramming for tests, and what is tested is not knowledge but short-term memory. By the time students graduate, they have forgotten most of what they have been taught, but with perfectly honed cramming skills, ready to brute-force their way through any further superficial tests of their “knowledge” or “competence,” to join the swelling ranks of America's credentialed amateurs. There is supposed to be a huge difference between the best colleges and universities and the rest. The ones considered best are mostly private, although few state schools find themselves included among them. What is taught is generally the same throughout, and the quality of the teaching is quite random. The best schools are thought to offer better chances for finding good jobs after graduation, but this is debatable. For some students, the more prestigious schools offer a certain charmed quality: no matter how much they drink and how badly they do, they cannot flunk out. An echelon of tutors is summoned to guide their every mediocre step, all the way through graduation. These are the children of the elite, whose attendance at these institutions is more a matter of tradition than anything else. It makes no difference whether they learn anything or not: for their breed, the pedigree counts for a lot more than the obedience training. I have run across a few of these zombies with Ivy League diplomas, childish handwritings, speech peppered with nonsense syllables, and an attitude that never stops begging for a slap. The Optimal School This being the lay of the land, what is a young person like Steve to do? The prestige offered by the best schools would be wasted on a desolate job market, while the inevitable pile of student loans would be a millstone around his neck. And yet there is no better place to learn than a university. I recommend that Steve choose a school not based on reputation or prestige, but word of mouth and financial advantages. The best school is the one that offers the best financial aid package, where he knows some people in the fields of study in which he is interested, which offers cheap off-campus living, and where he can find jobs to make money on the side. Steve should keep his earnings off the books whenever possible, or the school will confiscate them. The school will force him to take out some loans, so he should save enough money at the same time to cover them. He should try to find employment right at the school, because such jobs often provide a tuition waiver. State schools have an advantage: not only are they cheaper, but a lot of the students come from the vicinity rather than from far away. When Steve makes some friends among them, they will help him gain entry into the local community. Ideally, this is also an area where he will want to continue living once he is done with school, among his new friends. Deciding to settle wherever he finds a job is not a good plan; it is much better for him to know how to find work wherever he decides to settle. Fields of Mud When choosing a field of study, it is important to keep in mind that there are disciplines that will abide and remain perennially valuable, while others are fluff. The sciences – Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Zoology, Botany, Geology – will serve you well. Mathematics, Philosophy, Astronomy, and a foreign language or two will make you a better person. Literature and History are invaluable, but rarely taught well; if you cannot find a truly inspired teacher, teach yourself – by reading and writing, which are the only two activities these two disciplines require. Then there are the pseudo-sciences: Psychology, Sociology, Political Science, and Economics. They disguise themselves as sciences by employing experimental techniques and statistical analysis, and, in the case of Economics, a funky sort of math, but they are fluff, and are clearly marked with an expiration date. The distinction is quite crisp: for any subject, pick up a textbook older than fifty years. If it is a real discipline, there will be some recent discoveries and technological developments missing from it (a few elementary particles, DNA) but the rest will still look valid. If it is a fake subject, a fair percentage of it will look a bit iffy, with a smattering of stark raving nonsense. Lastly, there are the conduits to the professions: Law, Medicine, and Engineering. They have little to do with getting an education, and everything to do with learning a trade, and, of course “credentialing.” In each case, the hazing is extreme. The legal profession is already a bit overstocked, and, law being a luxury product, it seems unlikely that these graduates will be able to pay down their copious student loans in the new economy. Already many of them lack the option of becoming public defenders or taking on pro bono cases because of their huge financial burdens. I have already said enough about medicine; but if Steve wants to be a doctor, there are some medical schools around the world that graduate real doctors, rather than technocrats who practice “defensive medicine” and shuffle paper half their day. After the extended sleep deprivation experiment they are put through as interns, they get to live in stately homes, fly to pharmaceutical company junkets, and play a lot of golf. That may change. I am partial to engineering, having put myself through its rigors. It sometimes creates what I feel is a good sort of person – a bit stunted in some ways, strangely passionate about inanimate objects, but capable at many things and generally trustworthy. If Steve has exhibited the telltale tendencies – such as completely dismantling and reassembling various gadgets, and making them work perfectly again afterward – and if he looks forward to four years of scribbling out formulas under intense pressure, then engineering may be for him. Whether he will be able to earn a living by engineering is unknowable, but then engineers can usually find plenty of other things to do. The Piece of Paper It is often hard to tell ahead of time, but for a lot of people graduating may be quite pointless, while dropping out at an opportune moment may be quite advantageous. I know plenty of people who never graduated; they have been my bosses, my colleagues, and my employees. They often have an original perspective, along with an unusual depth of knowledge. Some of the best-educated people I have ever met have been dropouts: the self-educated poet Joseph Brodsky, for instance, who won a Nobel Prize in Literature, dropped out of grade school aged fifteen. It is best not announce your intention to never graduate, but behave accordingly. While others are busy checking off boxes on their little curriculum planning sheets and suffering through pointless required courses with mediocre instructors, you can find out what you want to learn and who you want to learn it from, and take your time to learn it well. Do not rush: if you feel that you have not absorbed all the material to your satisfaction, you can always request an incomplete and repeat the entire course free of charge. If a good project comes along, take it, take a leave of absence from school, then go back and study some more. Keep telling everyone that you intend to go back and get your degree. I know people in their late 40s who are still in good standing, always threatening to come back and finish their degree: people find them quite charming. Do not worry too much about grades; it will make very little difference what grades you received, but it will matter a lot whether you have learned what you had set out to learn. If you are on a scholarship, then by all means maintain the average that is required of you in order to continue receiving it. Think of the grade you get as the grade you give to the professor: if the professor is excellent, then you should try to repay her with some excellence of your own. Earth, Revisited The last, and possibly the most formative part of your education is for you to go and see the world beyond the borders of the U.S. Learn a language, then go and backpack through countries where you can speak it. Spanish – properly the second national language – is about the easiest language you can learn, and it unlocks a huge world, which starts right within the borders of the U.S., and which offers a great richness of spirit, along with a level-headed perspective on all this gringo madness that you will have to learn to escape from. You are at an age when parts of who you are – your outlook on life, your personality, your habits and your tastes – are still forming. There is no better way to gain a fresh perspective on the world – and on yourself – than to put yourself into an unfamiliar situation: new place, new culture, a different language. Who knows what you will find? It could be a new place to live, an acquired taste for leading a nomadic existence, or it could be a new peace of mind, a sense of self-sufficiency, or a unique perspective on life. Fact or Opinion? What will you do? No-one wants to take difficult steps, make their lives more difficult, or withstand privations of any sort, based on mere opinion; people want facts. What I have written here most definitely straddles the fuzzy line between opinion and fact. I have consciously avoided quoting authorities because I want to emphasize that this line really is fuzzy, and that no authority can help you make it less so. Some of what I wrote here may resonate with you, and so you would tend to consider it closer to fact than it really is. Other things I wrote here you might disagree with, and consider them just my opinion. Be that as it may; as far as your life is concerned, it is your opinion that matters, not mine. The line between fact and opinion is always moving, sometimes imperceptibly slowly – the way an entire country sinks further and further into debt, and sometimes very fast – the way several million people suddenly lose electricity for a few weeks. It is like a shoreline on a map – quite factual, and fixed, except for the odd storm surge. If you remain dry, the shoreline shift is mere opinion; if you are forced to spend some time underwater, it is more like a fact. When will you decide it time to move to higher ground? When you find yourself underwater, and have to swim there? And what if you move to higher ground while you are still dry, and find that it is rocky and barren? It is human nature to want to postpone making unpleasant decisions until the last moment, and we can do so with impunity, provided we leave enough options open for us to choose from. Every day that we live contentedly within the status quo, we restrict our options further and further, by making ourselves increasingly dependent on more and more systems over which we have no control, and on which we cannot rely. But there are also small, conscious steps we can take that break some of these dependencies, and create new options for ourselves. If we take enough such steps, then when the time arrives for a major, life-changing decision, we will be ready.

Twisted Avatar | 12-31-2008 06:43 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? Quote:
Originally Posted by californiaprospector (Post 1489596) That's correct, but not for the reasons you listed. In 2010, America will have a "Universal Healthcare Plan." It's terms will be simple: You're sick? Too bad! You're dying? Guess you better make peace with God. The multi-billion dollar "healthcare" industry of doctors & drugs & debt will be going away soon. There will still be doctors, but you'll pay him/her directly, probably in barter - and you'll avoid it unless you can see the likelihood of a genuinely beneficial outcome (most doctor visits today are a bad joke & 100% waste of time and money). Ultimately unnecessary pharmaceuticals like depression & blood pressure pills will simply go away - people will shape up or ship out (to the cemetery). Health "insurance" will be non-existent, since all insurers will have gone bankrupt. Hospitals will exist in a very limited form, for those with resources who have been severely injured; we didn't have an ubiquitous network of hospitals in the formerly Great Depression, and we'll see the network we have now evaporate as the majority go bankrupt. Home births will return to being the norm. Self-care will be the norm for everything possible, even if it would be better to have a doctor or hospital involved. Most allied health professions will have no market since most will have no disposable income to fund it.
BOY O BOY DID YOU EVER NAIL IT!!! Everytime I hear on CNBC: "Healthcare is one of the growth sectors or Ressecion proof industry" I litterally laugh my @$$ off anybody taking hold of THAT advice is gonna be in a WORLD of hurt. 2009: THE YEAR IT ALL STARTS TO FALL APART. T

AceNZ | 12-31-2008 07:00 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? I've been saying for years that a college education isn't everything it's made out to be. While I completely agree with the OP, one issue it didn't mention is that college actually costs people in ways other than just financially. The hidden, unspoken agenda in most modern universities is to achieve intellectual conformity and obedience to authority. New ways of thinking are not just discouraged; they are penalized. Innovation isn't rewarded; it's ridiculed. When most employers look at a resume and see a college degree listed, what they really see is that you've proven that you're able to do what you're told, be someplace when you say you will, not over-question authority, etc. A degree doesn't mean that you actually know anything important about your subject. As an example, when I was a hiring manager for a large computer company, I would always prefer someone with 4 years of on-the-job experience to someone with a 4 year degree, other things being equal. The college grads wouldn't know how to actually do anything. It's shameful, really -- although I admit to taking some pleasure in occasionally ripping them apart in technical interviews. I know, I'm a bad person....

Twisted Avatar | 12-31-2008 07:02 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? Quote:
Originally Posted by markt (Post 1489647) While some may be doing it, not all medical institutions are going with foreign labor. If I had to do my life over, I'd become one of three things: 1. X-ray Technician 2. Union Electrician 3. CNC Programmer-Machinist The first is the most return for the least medical schooling. The second is the most secure of all. And the third is the most well-paid. All three are always in high demand. As it is now I'm an engineering tech making $50,000+ per year. And the wife makes $30,000 working 4 days/week as a nursing assistant. Together we make in the low 80s. But I know how hard it'd be if I were laid off...
Xray (at least in the tri state) is completey over saturated The kids that they are letting out the schools(like M and M's) have barley grasped the concepts they can pass the written test but have NO I mean NO praticle skill set and have no desire to learn either. If I had to do it again I would have went with electrician .A electrician with a good work ethic will ALWAYS be in demand and can build a private client list that pays all cash. For those of you who are debating I Highly recommed Electrian at this stage in the game. T

Twisted Avatar | 12-31-2008 07:21 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? Quote:
Originally Posted by AceNZ (Post 1489832) While I completely agree with the OP, one issue it didn't mention is that college actually costs people in ways other than just financially. The hidden, unspoken agenda in most modern universities is to achieve intellectual conformity and obedience to authority. New ways of thinking are not just discouraged; they are penalized. Innovation isn't rewarded; it's ridiculed.
Excellent points Ace!!! I will also add that our ENTIRE SCHOOL SYSTEM is actually based on the PRUSSIAN SCHOOL SYSTEM the Sole purpose was to produce two things and two things only: WORKERS AND SOLDIERS. Think Im bluffing??? Look at what we "graduate" today and see if the product dose not fit the description. You dont think it is mearly a"coincidence" that Military Recruiters are right there waiting to get first dibs now do you?? Remeber the axiom: GUBBERMINT GETS WHAT GUBBERMINT WANTS. T

mozkill | 01-05-2009 09:13 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? I was really trying to get ideas for good banking schools. Not economics or finance, but more of a "banking" emphasis.

CyberGold | 01-05-2009 09:38 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? There is one job that won't be subbed out to a foreign national... and that is any job that require a secret or higher clearance for any kind of govt work (especially for contractors). In addition to the clearance,which requires a background investigation,you will need a college degree to make a decent salary.

scyth | 01-05-2009 10:27 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberGold (Post 1496994) There is one job that won't be subbed out to a foreign national... and that is any job that require a secret or higher clearance for any kind of govt work (especially for contractors). In addition to the clearance,which requires a background investigation,you will need a college degree to make a decent salary.
All - This may seem off-topic, but I'll throw it in anyway. I knew several trades before I graduated high school. They weren't even taught, its just how you grew up. Bucking hay or turning a wrench, doing heavylift "shit" work, building fence, Cooking food, whether learned from My Dad, my Mom, relatives, whatever........... Went to college and worked on the side for several years but had to bail out To go to work. I have watched American trade skills go to hell Over the last 40 years. "You pays your money and you takes your choice" As my 90 year old mother is fond of saying. So: an anthem - You Tube
You Tube
Now, 40 years ago I was "One of them Redneck Hippies" in A certain Southern Oregon valley. Had me a pretty good head of hair, and could work all day And then be across three counties in the moonlight. Now I'm "One of them Redneck Hippie Chromedomes" On a peninsula further North. Settled down, as it were. My point? Enjoy it all. Because enjoying it all is all you got. That, to me, is Survival, with a kicker. scyth

shinylid | 01-05-2009 11:46 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1489836) Xray (at least in the tri state) is completey over saturated The kids that they are letting out the schools(like M and M's) have barley grasped the concepts they can pass the written test but have NO I mean NO praticle skill set and have no desire to learn either. T
X-ray is over saturated everywhere. When I went to school for it there were endless jobs. Now, classes that graduate have most grads not capable of finding work- at least not yet. The place I work, like others, are starting to make the job miserable and are looking for reasons to give employees the boot, especially those who have been there years. The ones with seniority make too much, so they get rid of them in exchange for new grads who work for minimal rates. I'm planning on starting school for nursing, but the damn Filipinos are taking those jobs. Still a couple more years left for nursing, at least enough to get into nurse practitioner school and then be able to start a practice. I figure they either pay with money or they pay with barter or labor.

scholarcoon | 01-07-2009 11:11 AM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? Good advice. I dropped out of college and worked on an organic farm last year. Best educational experience of my life.

45 ACP | 01-07-2009 03:18 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? Major in ballistics with a minor in reloading.

Apocalypto | 01-07-2009 03:58 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? Agriculture Jim Rogers is correct: "In my view, farming is going to be one of the great businesses of the next decade or two, and farming products, wheat, corn, cotton� one of the most exciting places in the world to invest� in my view right now�"

wallew | 01-07-2009 04:10 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? I have two degrees (both are associate degrees). One in Computer Science and I did pretty good from 1980 - 1997. In 1997, I went back to school and got my degree in gunsmithing. I graduated in 1998. Plus I have been paid and published as a photojournalist. I wrote for Harley Davidson rags. The ONLY reason I did not get a degree in motorcycle mechanics is because they didn't teach woodworking ALONG WITH all the machine shop stuff. I am now and pretty much have always been an automotice/motorcycle mechanic. So going for a gunsmithing degree added woodworking, welding, blueing, and machine shop. Plus I got a really good history of firearms along with all that other stuff. I have THREE different tool boxes in my basement. A really large three tier Craftsman box that is full of my automotive/motorcycle stuff. A medium sized two tier Stanley box that I use for all my stuff around the house and finally my small sized two tier machinist box that has all my gunsmithing stuff on it. I have not thrown out a nut, bolt or screw in over forty years. I disassemble everything before throwing it out, snagging every switch, nut, bolt or screw that I can scavenge off whatever is about to be thrown out.

Twisted Avatar | 01-07-2009 04:16 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? Quote:
Originally Posted by shinylid (Post 1497165) X-ray is over saturated everywhere. When I went to school for it there were endless jobs. Now, classes that graduate have most grads not capable of finding work- at least not yet. The place I work, like others, are starting to make the job miserable and are looking for reasons to give employees the boot, especially those who have been there years. The ones with seniority make too much, so they get rid of them in exchange for new grads who work for minimal rates. I'm planning on starting school for nursing, but the damn Filipinos are taking those jobs. Still a couple more years left for nursing, at least enough to get into nurse practitioner school and then be able to start a practice. I figure they either pay with money or they pay with barter or labor.
Honestly speaking it is not even worth it IMO. I forgot who it was but they made a BRILLIANT post about healthcare it went something to affect off as job losses mount health benifits are cut and as people lose money they also stop paying taxes to the State they cant reimburse the hospitals on the charity care which will bring the cases that hospital are willing to do to a grinding halt All those cat and nuclear scans ?? Screw you buddy were not getting paid so you are not "sick" That will lead to the mother of all backlashes across the entire feild of healthcare all those funky jobs will go the way of the wind "er tech, phlebotomist,pt registar, housekeeping" all of that will be done by the RN's that will be more than happy to do it to keep there job. Those of us who work in health care are in for a world of hurt. T

silver_addiction | 01-07-2009 04:32 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? i work/ live on an organic farm in upstate ny. this is a pretty safe place to be, employment wise. and i won't go hungry......

Twisted Avatar | 01-07-2009 05:00 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? Quote:
Originally Posted by silver_addiction (Post 1500505) i work/ live on an organic farm in upstate ny. this is a pretty safe place to be, employment wise. and i won't go hungry......
How far upstate?? Past woodstock??? T

Cassius | 01-07-2009 05:07 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? The best college degree for the next depression is none at all. A degree is just a piece of paper. I would think that people on this forum especially would understand the valueless nature of pieces of paper. If the next depression gets as bad as it could, you'll be deciding whether to use your degree or your FRNs as toilet paper. Which one is softer, which one has more absorbency? College is valuable for the information it offers, not the piece of paper at the end that says you are "approved". If you learned all you could at college and dropped out the day before graduation, you'd be light years ahead of the person who coasted through not learning a damn thing but graduating with a degree because it's a matter of knowing how to jump through hoops. And, (and this is my major point), the information you can learn there is freely available at the public library or on the internet.

TheNocturnalEgyptian | 01-07-2009 05:08 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? I went to college to please my dad. He didn't care what degree I got, however. So what did I do? A major in history, minor in geology. It's worth ****-all, and I fix computers for a living. I really do love history, however. I studied a passion, not a career. I am currently trying to start a co-op garden with a constitution and rule-set in the city. It isn't going well.

Twisted Avatar | 01-07-2009 05:12 PM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? In a word :Trades Trades will make you a King or Queen in the coming depression if you have a useful skill you will be worth your weight in Gold. Where ever you are look around you .........see what it is that the people are clamoring for AND LEARN THAT SKILL. T

wallew | 01-08-2009 12:10 AM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassius (Post 1500570) And, (and this is my major point), the information you can learn there is freely available at the public library or on the internet.
Cassius, While you MAY be correct about most information, trust me, you won't LEARN how to become a gunsmith at the public library OR on the internet. MOST vocational schools are hands on and require tons of proven skill sets before you get that 'piece of paper'. And don't get me wrong. We had a guy in MY gunsmithing class that finished the 14 month school in 6 months. He had grown up in a machine shop, so that cut more than four months off his time. Plus he also did wood working as a hobby, another three months off. And he left WITHOUT a degree. Knowing more than a lot of guys that did get the piece of paper.

silver_addiction | 01-08-2009 01:00 AM
Re: The Best College Degrees for the Next Depression? Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1500559) How far upstate?? Past woodstock??? T
no, not past woodstock. im in eastern dutchess county. a few miles off taconic

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