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Twisted Avatar | 03-13-2009 02:52 PM
Advice on Silver or Gold Jewelry for Barter Three Letters Re: Advice on Silver or Gold Jewelry for Barter? Hi - I just read your comments regarding not holding jewelry for precious metals holdings. As one who makes his living (and has done so for decades) in jewelry, coins and guns, I fully agree with your comments. I have had many customers in over the years that had decided that jewelry was a good place to invest in precious metals, and after I went over it with them, they have all switched to good products. There are some very good fake jewelry out there these days that will fool many, even with the use of a stone and acid. I learned the old fashioned way, using straight nitric acid rather that the acid mixes used today, which are much more fool-able and can tell much closer the karat and whether or not an items is solid, filled or totally phony. I also learned diamonds using just a loupe rather than with an electronic probe. And I agree with your comments about gemstones as well - they look great in the bottom of an aquarium but unless I know I can sell it to someone, I would never put my own money out for them. You might go over (or you may have already in the archives) some of the other good silver and gold products to buy and hold, or I would be happy to write something up for you. I give this advice out daily in my shop, where I do guns and coins. Many of my customers are buying both, and food storage is increasingly a topic of discussion as well. I do a lot of digging and searching for ammo, so I am one of the very few places in town with ammo on the shelf and guns on the rack. - G. in Las Vegas Dear Mr Rawles, I just read the letter about using jewelry for barter on your web site and think your answer is right on. I am a jeweler in the Midwest and would like to add to your comments. If someone wanted to sell jewelry now and buy items that would be easier to barter with during a post-dollar society here are some tips and insights. 1. Never send your jewelry away to a company advertising cash for gold on television. These people are crooks and you will get next to nothing for your gold. 2. The next worse place to take your jewelry for sale would be a pawn shop. 3. A jeweler or coin dealer is a better bet and will generally give you more money for what you have. Go to an independent jeweler, not a nationwide chain. Check with a couple of jewelers if you don�t have one you trust. 4. To get top dollar for your jewelry try selling it yourself. This has some drawbacks, it will take time and is a serious breech of OPSEC. Some jewelers may be willing to sell nicer pieces on consignment, this eliminates most of the OPSEC issues. I can tell people how much they should get from a jeweler and why. Expect to get 50-65% of the actual market value of gold for your jewelry. Why so low you ask? There are a couple of reasons. First the jeweler isn�t buying your gold, he�s buying your gold�s future. He doesn�t send the gold in to the refiner the day you sell it, he sends it in when he has several ounces to send at once. If the market falls between the time you get your money and when the gold is sent in the jeweler could loose money. Refining gold isn�t free. First the package must be insured and shipped to the refiner. The refiner charges a fee to assay the gold, to determine its precious metal content. Then the refiner takes a cut off the top. The price varies from refiner to refiner but they generally get between 7-10%. And finally the jeweler has to make a profit to keep his doors open. A better bet for old, unused jewelry might be to have it melted down and made into something you will use. Some things that will come in handy if you want to take in jewelry as payment in a post-collapse setting. Get an acid test kit and learn how to use it. These kits will give an approximate karat quality for 10-14-18k gold. Below is a list of how much gold is in each quality of gold. 10k = 41.66% gold (sometimes stamped 416) 14k = 58.5% gold (sometimes stamped 585) 18k = 75% gold (sometimes stamped 750) It is illegal to put a quality mark on anything less than 10K gold in the USA.If you run across anything stamped 8K or 9K it probably came from Mexico and should be considered suspect. Always file the piece to be tested in an inconspicuous place, removing just a bit of metal, and put the acid on that spot. This will cut through any possible plating and give a test on the metal underneath. Get a scale, I�m sure most of you have a grain scale for measuring out powder charges, this works fine for weighing gold, just convert to ounces and remember that precious metals are weighed in Troy ounces not Avoirdupois ounces. [14 versus 16 ounces per pound.] A gram or pennyweight scale isn�t expensive and every house should have one. After weighing its just a matter of figuring out how much gold is really worth. Also get a good, strong magnet and check everything with it. There are lots of frauds out there, anything that sticks to a magnet is gold plated and should be considered junk. A word of caution about gemstones, don�t give any money for gems unless you know exactly what you�re dealing with, and never trust an appraisal. Tell the seller that you aren�t interested in the stones and they can remove them from the setting if they want them. Don�t remove them yourself. Also don�t expect to get much for stones in jewelry you are selling unless they are exceptionally rare and valuable. Jewelers usually have many carats of diamonds on hand, they don�t need yours, and if they do buy them the stones will sit in inventory for months before being used. Be careful dealing with jewelry after TEOTWAWKI. I know what I�m doing around jewelry and I�d much rather deal in coins or other forms of wealth. Its easier and faster and I could use the coins to trade with almost anyone. Remember, just because you are willing to trade for jewelry doesn�t mean that someone will [later] want to take it from you in trade. Take note of what my old boss used to say, �Gold is a wonderful thing, but you can�t eat it and it doesn�t keep you warm at night. Keep your powder dry, - Kestrel Hi Jim, I have recently started a business buying and selling unused/unwanted jewelry, coins and PMs (precious metals). One thing that I have learned through the start-up process, is that in a TEOTWAWKI situation, being able to identify PM coins or jewelry's value will be a skill that could really come in handy. Having scales, acid testing kits, and electronic testing equipment such as the ones I bought from igem.com, could really give you an edge when the balloon goes up. I bought the GLR-24 tester that can determining the karat content of a piece from 6-24 karat gold, and can also detect the presence of platinum and silver. My acid kit (which only runs about $20), can identify gold as well, but the process is bit more time-consuming, however the advantage is that I will not be entirely reliant on a battery-operated electronic device when/if it breaks later on down the road. Using an acid testing kit takes practice, and you would be wise to learn how to do it now, and not try to figure it out under more stressful times that are sure to come. I also acquired a gem tester in the kit (that detects diamonds, moissants, and zirconium gems), although the value of these items would be suspect at best, as not many would trust their authenticity, and thus, they would be hard to utilize as a form of currency (but having the ability to test them can't hurt either as an opportunity could present itself I suppose). In the kit I also received an electronic scale that weighs in ounces, grams, and grains and a lighted loop for reading the stampings. Keep in mind that people can stamp whatever they want on metals or jewelry, but that does not make it authentic! Coins are even forged a lot (read: China) in today's world. The only way to truly determine something's worth is to have the means to test it!!! I would also recommend that all survivalbloggers have a print-out of weight and measure conversion charts, and that you become familiar with the process of calculating the worth of 10K, 14K, 18K and 24K gold. It is also important to know how to calculate the value of coinage and know their purity content for their respective years they were minted. Remember, fiat currency will probably become a thing of the past, and bartering skills as well as the ability to identify what the other guys stuff is worth will be key to fair trade. - Jeff in Michigan JWR Replies: Thanks for that info. Here is some additional data from one of my early FAQs that folks should keep on hand both in electronic form, and in hard copy. Pack those pages with your touchstone, scale, Fisch calipers,and acid test kit: Silver dollar bags ($1,000 face value) contain approximately 765 ounces of silver Thus, if the "spot" price is $5.20/oz., a $1,000 bag would be worth $3,978, wholesale. (Or think of it as 3.97 times the face value of any single coin.) Small quantity purchases (less than $10 face value) get the buyer the worst rate (currently roughly 5.5 times face value.) Large purchases (multiple $1,000 bags) allow the best rate--roughly only 4 or 5% over the melt value 90% .50/.25/.10 bags ($1,000 face value) contain approximately 715 ounces of silver 40% half dollar bags ($1,000 face value) contain approximately 296 ounces of silver Conversion Formulas: Grams to pennyweights, multiply grams by .643 Pennyweights to grams, multiply pennyweights by 1.555 Grams to troy ounces, multiply grams by 0.32 Troy ounces to grams, multiply troy ounces by 31.103 Pennyweights to troy ounces, divide pennyweights by 20 Troy ounces to pennyweights, multiply troy ounces by 20 Grains to grams, multiply grains by .0648 Grams to grains, multiply grams by 15.432 Pennyweights to grains, multiply pennyweights by 24 Avoirdupois ounces to troy ounces, multiply avoirdupois ounces by .912 Troy ounces to avoirdupois ounces, multiply troy ounces by 1.097 Avoirdupois ounces to grams, multiply avoirdupois ounces by 28.35 Grams to Avoirdupois ounces, multiply grams by .035 Gold Purity Standards (by Karat): 24 K = 99.9% fine Pure Gold. Too weak for jewelry, but ideal for industrial use 23.5K = 97.92% fine 23 K = 95.83% fine 22.5K = 93.75% fine 22 K = 92.67% fine Some coin gold, though not that of the U.S., is 22K 21.6K = 90.00% fine The approximate purity of U.S. gold coins 21.5K = 89.58% fine 21 K = 87.50% fine 20.5K = 85.42% fine 20 K = 83.33% fine 19.5K = 81.25% fine 19 K = 79.17% fine 18.5K = 77.08% fine 18 K = 75.00% fine The highest grade of gold normally used in jewelry. 17.5K = 72.92% fine 17 K = 70.83% fine 16.5K = 68.75% fine 16 K = 66.67% fine 1/3 copper. This grade is commonly used in dental work. 15.5K = 64.58% fine 15 K = 62.50% fine 14.5K = 60.42% fine 14 K = 58.33% fine 13.5K = 56.25% fine 13 K = 54.17% fine 12.5K = 52.08% fine 12 K = 50.00% fine Half gold, half copper. Used extensively in low priced jewelry. (Will show brownish tinge in reaction to Nitric Acid.) 11.5K = 47.92% fine The percentage of copper now exceeds that of gold. 11 K = 45.83% fine 10.5K = 43.75% fine 10 K = 41.67% fine Used in some low-grade jewelry such as class rings. Shows a marked reaction to Nitric Acid. 9.5 K = 39.58% fine 9 K = 37.50% fine Not much more than one-third gold. Silver Purity Standards: .9999 fine "Pure Silver" .9584 fine "Britannia Silver" Often used in manufacturing. .9250 fine "Sterling Silver" Normally stamped "Sterling" or ".925" .9000 fine "Coin Silver" Some antique items are marked "Dollar" or " D" or ".900" or "Coin Silver" to indicate they were made from melted coins. " German Silver" is +/- 97% base metal and only +/- 3% silver, and thus has no bullion value. Exactly what silver or gold coins will bring you in barter will depend on the times. Immediately after a collapse, coins may not be worth much. As law and order is gradually restored, they will probably be worth more and more. The bottom line is the old legal maxim: "The value of a thing is what that thing will bring." http://www.survivalblog.com/

Barrettone | 03-18-2009 10:03 PM
Re: Advice on Silver or Gold Jewelry for Barter Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1623754) [B]Three Letters Re: Advice on Silver or Gold Jewelry for Barter? Hi Jim, I have recently started a business buying and selling unused/unwanted jewelry, coins and PMs (precious metals). One thing that I have learned through the start-up process, is that in a TEOTWAWKI situation, being able to identify PM coins or jewelry's value will be a skill that could really come in handy. Having scales, acid testing kits, and electronic testing equipment such as the ones I bought from igem.com, could really give you an edge when the balloon goes up. I bought the GLR-24 tester that can determining the karat content of a piece from 6-24 karat gold, and can also detect the presence of platinum and silver. My acid kit (which only runs about $20), can identify gold as well, but the process is bit more time-consuming, however the advantage is that I will not be entirely reliant on a battery-operated electronic device when/if it breaks later on down the road. Using an acid testing kit takes practice, and you would be wise to learn how to do it now, and not try to figure it out under more stressful times that are sure to come. I also acquired a gem tester in the kit (that detects diamonds, moissants, and zirconium gems), although the value of these items would be suspect at best, as not many would trust their authenticity, and thus, they would be hard to utilize as a form of currency (but having the ability to test them can't hurt either as an opportunity could present itself I suppose). In the kit I also received an electronic scale that weighs in ounces, grams, and grains and a lighted loop for reading the stampings. Keep in mind that people can stamp whatever they want on metals or jewelry, but that does not make it authentic! Coins are even forged a lot (read: China) in today's world. The only way to truly determine something's worth is to have the means to test it!!! I would also recommend that all survivalbloggers have a print-out of weight and measure conversion charts, and that you become familiar with the process of calculating the worth of 10K, 14K, 18K and 24K gold. It is also important to know how to calculate the value of coinage and know their purity content for their respective years they were minted. Remember, fiat currency will probably become a thing of the past, and bartering skills as well as the ability to identify what the other guys stuff is worth will be key to fair trade. - Jeff in Michigan http://www.survivalblog.com/
This part of the post was from me, and I was surprised to see it posted here. I finally registered, and am happy to be here learning more. These truly are extraordinary times...

MNeagle | 03-18-2009 10:27 PM
Re: Advice on Silver or Gold Jewelry for Barter Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrettone (Post 1633373) This part of the post was from me, and I was surprised to see it posted here. I finally registered, and am happy to be here learning more. These truly are extraordinary times...
Wow, what are the odds? Seeing your stuff must've been a weird feeling eh? Welcome to GIM!

Atahualpa | 03-18-2009 10:49 PM
Re: Advice on Silver or Gold Jewelry for Barter 1 Attachment(s) I buy silver jewelery often at a couple of thrift stores in town...rarely do I find gold jewelery. The manager at one of them saves me most of the pieces that come in, the other one is hit or miss...today it was a hit, a .925 locket with a lotus flower carved out of fossil walrus tusk...$5. I found the company that makes it and they sell them retail for $265. pic below of the exact piece. At the other store I found a Taxco Mexican piece...no pic, but it is a black onyx disc (like a donut) with a .925 ribbon kinda thing that the chain goes through...the chain is .925 and 30" long...$5. I've found many pieces over the last few years...maybe a couple hundred, all of them a few bucks. I would never sell them for the silver value. Zealandia Design http://www.zealandia.com/

Barrettone | 03-19-2009 12:09 AM
Re: Advice on Silver or Gold Jewelry for Barter Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1633468) I buy silver jewelery often at a couple of thrift stores in town...rarely do I find gold jewelery. The manager at one of them saves me most of the pieces that come in, the other one is hit or miss...today it was a hit, a .925 locket with a lotus flower carved out of fossil walrus tusk...$5. I found the company that makes it and they sell them retail for $265. pic below of the exact piece. At the other store I found a Taxco Mexican piece...no pic, but it is a black onyx disc (like a donut) with a .925 ribbon kinda thing that the chain goes through...the chain is .925 and 30" long...$5. I've found many pieces over the last few years...maybe a couple hundred, all of them a few bucks. I would never sell them for the silver value. Zealandia Design http://www.zealandia.com/
That was a nice score!!! Good job!!!

Bill843 | 03-19-2009 05:09 PM
Re: Advice on Silver or Gold Jewelry for Barter This is one subject I never understood about the Ferfal blog--the part where he says he regrets not buying more junk jewelry to barter with. His justification is that "nobody will pay you what it's worth, so you might as well get the cheapest you can find" doesn't make any sense to me--unless it does. Because of the margin, dealers never pay you "what it's worth",,, they always make their little cut. As far as anyone else--jewelry is inherently problematic to use for any sort of standard barter, exactly because of the wide range of weights and purities used. Compare that to something like a fractional gold eagle: you can measure the eagle with some calipers, weigh it on a good electronic scale, and be pretty sure that it's 100% gold. It wouldn't be the same (known) size and weight of a real coin, if it wasn't the same metal content. I would suppose that in the case of Argentina, there was very few people who had any sizable quantities of gold bullion--and jewelry was the next-most-common source of metal around. But I have a hard time believing that it was the best currency around, even in that case. -end-

Twisted Avatar | 03-19-2009 05:20 PM
Re: Advice on Silver or Gold Jewelry for Barter Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrettone (Post 1633373) This part of the post was from me, and I was surprised to see it posted here. I finally registered, and am happy to be here learning more. These truly are extraordinary times...
AWESOME MAN!!!! At least your foray into the Lime light was better than mines. That was a great share :ok: T

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