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- - USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=379495)

des00s | 06-01-2009 12:55 AM
USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business USDA Admits National Animal Identification System (NAIS) Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business FALLS CHURCH, Va. - The Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Foundation said today that a cost/benefit study commissioned by United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) proves that the costs for small farmers to implement the National Animal Identification System (NAIS) could put many of them out of business. "Most animal health problems are the result of the high-density CAFOs that concentrate thousands of animals in one location, while food safety problems begin at the slaughterhouse where NAIS traceability ends" "The government's own numbers show that a small farmer will pay at least twice and in some cases nearly three times the costs per animal to participate in NAIS as will the operators of the large confined animal feeding operations (CAFO)," said acting Fund president Pete Kennedy. The costs for animal identification quoted in the study called "The Benefit-Cost Analysis of the National Animal Identification System," which was released April 29, range from $2.48 per animal for CAFOs with more than 5,000 cattle to $7.17 per animal for producers with less than 50 and who do not currently tag their cattle. "Not only does the difference illustrate how unfair NAIS will be," Kennedy says, "we think the numbers themselves are substantially underestimated, which will further burden the small farmers to the point of making their way of life untenable." Kennedy also pointed to the study's unreasonably low estimate of what it would cost a small farmer to hire someone to read the tags since many of them will not be able to afford to purchase the thousand-dollar-plus electronic tag reading equipment. "The government's time and labor costs for custom tag reading for animal identification are not grounded in reality," Kennedy said. "For instance, the study estimates that a small farmer could hire a third party to travel to his farm to do it for only $1.87 per animal. That estimate seems ridiculously low, especially for farms and ranches located in remote areas." Fund board member Taaron G. Meikle said that the unrealistic and misleading cost assumptions together with USDA's own statement about the major benefits of NAIS are further evidence that the animal identification program is being implemented to benefit CAFOs at the expense of the small farmer. Meikle pointed to a fact sheet published by the USDA's Animal & Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) Veterinary Services that lists "key points" from the study. "The first one speaks to the timely recovery of export markets after a disease outbreak and the second says that traceability is necessary to participate in the global marketplace," she said. "Neither of these matter to a small farmer who sells his beef to his neighbors on his farm or at a farmers' market." Meikle reiterated the Fund's position that implementing NAIS will do little if anything to improve animal health or food safety in the United States. "Most animal health problems are the result of the high-density CAFOs that concentrate thousands of animals in one location, while food safety problems begin at the slaughterhouse where NAIS traceability ends," she said. "By implementing NAIS-which requires small farmers and ranchers to track each animal individually while allowing CAFOs to track all animals under one blanket Group Identification Number-the USDA would be rewarding factory farms whose practices encourage disease while crippling small farms and the local food movement in the name of increased international sales." Meikle also noted that the Fund intends to have a presence at the upcoming listening tour on NAIS that the USDA plans to conduct in seven cities beginning May 15. "The USDA is positioning these hearings as a forum to discuss 'stakeholder concerns' about NAIS, when the hearings should be focused on whether or not it is needed at all, and we intend to make sure the voices of small farmers are heard." The Fund last year filed suit in the U.S. District Court - District of Columbia against the USDA and the Michigan Department of Agriculture (MDA) to stop the implementation of NAIS. The MDA has implemented the first two stages of NAIS - property registration and animal identification - for all cattle and farmers across the state under the guise of its bovine tuberculosis disease control program. MDA's implementation of the first two steps of NAIS was required in exchange for a grant of money from the USDA. The Fund's suit asks the court to issue an injunction to stop the implementation of NAIS at both the State and Federal levels by any State or Federal agency. If successful, the suit would halt the program nationwide. About The Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund: The Fund defends the rights and broadens the freedoms of sustainable farmers, and protects consumer access to local, nutrient-dense foods. Concerned citizens can support the Fund by joining at www.farmtoconsumer.org or by contacting the Fund at 703-208-FARM (3276). The Fund's sister organization, the Farm-to-Consumer Foundation (www.farmtoconsumerfoundation.org), works to promote consumer access to local, nutrient-dense food and support farmers engaged in sustainable farm stewardship. Contacts Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund Taaron G. Meikle, 703-537-8372 tgmeikle@aol.com or Cummings & Company LLC Brian Cummings, 214-295-7463 brian@cummingspr.com

steel_ag | 06-01-2009 07:21 AM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business if this is implemented part of the food supply is gonna get smaller and alot shittier.... big brother ... agenda21

SWRichmond | 06-01-2009 08:19 AM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Legislated market share.

rurounikitsune | 06-01-2009 08:34 AM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Quote:
Originally Posted by des00s (Post 1748131) MDA's implementation of the first two steps of NAIS was required in exchange for a grant of money from the USDA.
...which monies are ostensibly created based on the Federal government's ability to tax it back from the people. Quote:
If you choose to deal with men by means of compulsion, do so. But you will discover that you need the voluntary co-operation of your victims, in many more ways than you can see at present. And your victims should discover that it is their own volition - which you cannot force - that makes you possible. I choose to be consistent and I will obey you in the manner you demand. Whatever you wish me to do, I will do it at the point of a gun. If you sentence me to jail, you will have to send armed men to carry me there - I will not volunteer to move. If you fine me, you will have to seize my property to collect the fine - I will not volunteer to pay it. If you believe that you have the right to force me - use your guns openly. I will not help you to disguise the nature of your action.

Tallships | 06-01-2009 10:39 AM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Just one more step towards the planned population reduction.

Silver Belle | 06-01-2009 11:01 AM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business This is precisely what we have been saying all along. Some states have taken the initiative to opt out of NAIS, but -- as usual -- most have not. In fact, some states, such as Wisconsin and a few others -- have already made it mandatory, even though it is technically still optional. We anti-NAIS folks have been banging this drum loudly for years, but nobody who can do anything about it listens, of course. They placate us and patronize us and pat us on our heads telling us that the USDA is concerned about protecting the food supply -- which is absolutely bogus. There is not one ounce of protection in NAIS -- instead, it is all about tracking back after the fact and the big ag lobby has them right where they want them. It will likely cause most of us to either go out of business or to go just one more step underground, rather than trying to comply. It will run the little guys like me out of business, as the requirements that we have to meet are actually greater than the requirements that the big ag conglomerates. They will be able to get a group ID for their animals � we little guys need to, for the most part, anyway � will need to identify them one by one. That said, Tech Guy and Ryedale � have you invested in RFID scanners yet for your family flocks? If you give one egg to one neighbor, you will need to comply. Also, if Mr. Fox eats one of your chickens, you need to report that to the USDA within 24 hours. Crazy, isn�t it? But�an interesting way to track who is growing food if you think about it. I will continue to keep you posted on upcoming 'listening sessions' in case you are able to attend one in your area. http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/aa/aa-21may2009.htm Quote:
Keep updated on the USDA NAIS listening sessions. Click here for the a list of action alerts, press releases, public comments and testimonies from the farmers and consumers who have attended. ***USA - ACTION ALERT*** NAIS Listening Session Action Alert! USDA held its first "listening session" about the National Animal Identification System (NAIS) in Pennsylvania last week. The vast majority of people who attended the meeting told USDA to stop implementing this expensive, intrusive program. The clear message was: NAIS will drive small farms out of business and burden every American consumer, and we don't want it! Please help send a strong message at the other federal listening sessions across the country! It's going to take a lot of people speaking up loud and clear to keep a mandatory NAIS from being imposed on every livestock owner in America! These listening sessions are a critical opportunity to get media attention on NAIS and demonstrate the level of opposition to the program. For more information about NAIS: http://www.FarmAndRanchFreedom.org http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/nais.html http://www.westonaprice.org/federalupdate/nais.html TAKE ACTION #1 - COME TO THE MEETINGS! WHERE Louisville, Kentucky Friday, May 22 Crowne Plaza, Louisville Airport, 830 Phillips Lane Storrs, Connecticut Wednesday, May 27 University of Connecticut, Storrs Campus-Bishop Center, One Bishop Circle Loveland, Colorado ***NEW LOCATION**** Monday, June 1 The Ranch, Larimer County Fairgrounds and Event Complex 5280 Arena Circle, Suite 100 WHEN The meetings will take place from 9 am to 4 pm. Registration is from 8 am -9 am. WHAT 1) Bring written comments! USDA has only scheduled 2 hours for public comment in the morning, so not everyone will have the chance to speak. Bringing written comments gets your comments into the formal record. Sample comments available at: http://farmandranchfreedom.org/content/Sample-comments 2) If you want to speak, plan a short (3 minute) statement 3) The afternoon will consist of "facilitated sessions." This is another chance for you to speak your mind on the record! Be prepared to politely disagree with the facilitator. If they claim that a "consensus" has been reached with an answer that you don't agree with, say so! 4) After the meeting, send your photos, videos, and comments to the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund at info@farmtoconsumer.org We'll post them on our website. REGISTRATION 1) Pre-register online: Send an email to NAISSessions@aphis.usda.gov In the subject line of the e-mail, indicate your name (or organization name) and the location of the meeting you plan to attend. If you wish to present public comments, please include your name (or organization name) and address in the body of the message. 2) Pre-register by phone: call 301-734-0799 3) Register on-site the day of the meeting, from 8 am - 9 am You can also check USDA's website for more information: http://www.usda.gov/nais/feedback MORE LOCATIONS COMING USDA is scheduling six more listening sessions between June 9 and June 25 in: Jefferson City, Missouri Rapid City, South Dakota Albuquerque, New Mexico Riverside, California Tallahassee, Florida Raleigh, North Carolina Stay tuned for more details on these sessions! TAKE ACTION #2 - SUBMIT WRITTEN COMMENTS Whether or not you can come to a meeting, you can submit written comments to USDA: ONLINE: http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubli...PHIS-2009-0027 BY MAIL: NAIS, Surveillance and Identification Programs National Center for Animal Health Programs, VS, APHIS 4700 River Road, Unit 200 Riverdale, MD 20737 DEADLINE: Although the USDA did not specify a deadline in its notice, a USDA official has stated that the deadline is Monday, June 1. You can find sample comments at: http://farmandranchfreedom.org/content/Sample-comments YOUR PRESENCE MATTERS! Your physical presence at these meetings can make a difference! Don't be discouraged by USDA's confirmation email, which says that public comment will be allowed based on a "lottery system," and that people should come early because there may not be enough seats. Please come to the meeting! With or without speaking, the more people who come to these meetings, the better. We need the USDA, Congress, and the media to see how many people care enough about this issue to take off work to come! By being at the meeting, you are making an impact! Remember that the facilitated sessions in the afternoon are another chance to speak on the record. And you can bring written comments to put into the record as well. Help us pack the rooms with people at these sessions! Remember to send your photos, videos, and comments to the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund at info@farmtoconsumer.org so we can share them on our website! With Regards, Pete Kennedy, Esq. Interim President Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund

obilly | 06-01-2009 11:33 AM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business first they came for the cows, nobody said anything, then they came for the pigs, nobody said anything, then they came for the chickens, nobody said anything, then they came for you (rfid). mark of the beast nothing to eat.

tulsamal | 06-01-2009 11:52 AM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Quote:
or to go just one more step underground,
I own 90 acres and raise a mixed variety of fowl and meat goats. Hopefully there will be some enterprising guy like Quark in the underground so we will at least be able to get a decent drink in a fun bar! See you there! Gregg

Ryedale | 06-01-2009 12:01 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business <TABLE cellSpacing=5 width=353 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=HdrBlackBold>Myths and Facts</TD></TR><TR><TD class=BodyTextBlack noWrap colSpan=2>http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/...nt-divider.gif </TD></TR><TR><TD class=BodyTextBlackBold>Myth: There are fines for producers who do not register in NAIS.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=BodyTextBlack>Fact: Participation in NAIS is voluntary at the Federal level. There are no Federal penalties or other "enforcement" mechanisms associated with the program. You will not be penalized by USDA at all if you choose not to participate in the program.</TD></TR><TR></TR><TR><TD class=BodyTextBlackBold>Myth: USDA wants to identify every animal in the United States, including pets, for NAIS.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=BodyTextBlack>Fact: The focus of NAIS is animal agriculture - livestock and/or poultry. Owners of the following species would benefit from and are encouraged to participate: cattle and bison; poultry; swine; sheep; goats; cervids (deer and elk); equines (horses, mules, donkeys, burros); and camelids (llamas and alpacas). Household pets (cats and dogs) are not included.</TD></TR><TR></TR><TR><TD class=BodyTextBlackBold>Myth: USDA wants to identify and track the movement of all livestock in the United States for NAIS.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=BodyTextBlack>Fact: Attempting to record all animals and movements is not practical, and that is not the intent with NAIS. Rather, the intent with NAIS is to prevent disease spread. The only animals recommended for identification are those that are moved from their premises to locations where they "commingle", or come into contact with, animals from multiple/other premises. Due to the nature of their movements, these animals may pose a significant risk of disease transmission or have a greater impact on the spread of a potential disease. Animals with a "lower-risk" of, or "lower-impact" on, disease spread are not the focus of NAIS. For example, the following situations are not applicable to NAIS: </TD></TR><TR><TD class=h1> Livestock that never leave the premises of their birth, even if they move from pasture to pasture within that premises, do not need to be identified Animals that never leave their premises other than when they "get out" Animals that are only moved directly from their birth premises to custom slaughter The participation of animals in local trail rides The movement of animals to small local parades or fairs (Many local fairs and similar events may have their own animal identification requirements that are not affected by NAIS. You should check with animal health officials or event organizers for any such existing requirements.) </TD></TR><TR><TD class=BodyTextBlackBold>Myth: USDA will use the NAIS to provide "real-time" government surveillance of livestock.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=BodyTextBlack>Fact: NAIS is not a "real-time" tracking system for animals. There is no constant or continuous observation of animals; comments implying otherwise are simply untrue. Rather, animal movement records will be established when the owner or caretaker of the animal chooses to report such information. This animal location and movement data will be held in multiple, secure databases managed by private industry groups and the States. Animal health officials will only request access to animal movement and location records in the case of a disease outbreak or other animal health event (such as an outbreak of avian influenza or brucellosis). </TD></TR><TR></TR><TR><TD class=BodyTextBlackBold>Myth: Producers can no longer provide comments or feedback regarding the NAIS.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=BodyTextBlack>Fact: NAIS continues to evolve to meet producer demands, and participant input to the program is critical. USDA has established an email address for NAIS, animalidcomments@aphis.usda.gov, and always welcomes comments. Comments can also be provided by clicking here. </TD></TR><TR><TD class=BodyTextBlack>APHIS and its State and industry partners have also created NAIS Species Working Groups to provide the species-specific, ground-level information that is necessary to create an effective system. These groups represent another important avenue for people to provide input and help shape the development of NAIS. Producers, animal owners, and other stakeholders can submit comments to their Species Working Group through the NAIS Web site by clicking here.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=BodyTextBlack>As leaders in the development and implementation of NAIS, State and Tribal NAIS Administrators also welcome input on the program. Click here for your State or Tribe's contact information.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> How does dog taste?

momopanda | 06-01-2009 12:14 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business These bills, dozens of them, scream one thing at you. Get to know your local food producers. It's time to go backward in this regard folks. Do it now and avoid the rush. And it can , and should, be none of the goobermint's GD business. Cheapskate that I am, I will gladly spend a few extra frn's to buy food I know and believe in as opposed to stockpiling some extra bullion. If it comes in a pretty colored freakin' box, generally speaking, it's a scam, one way or ta other. Either because it's nutritionally vacuous, or because it's a corporate scam enriching marketers and distributors and packagers and marketers and shippers (and thereby fuel companies) and marketers and chemical companies (fuel again!) and store owners and marketers (did I mention the marketers?)(yeah I know i sound like a tin foil hattie), instead of farmers and raisers. The percentage of income that people spend on food has been going down for a long time. That is going to change. Take a weekend and visit a local sustainable operation. Believe it or not there are tons of them, and they are staging a comebackl (don't call it a comeback i been here for years!). "Personal Banker" cries the marketing headline. F 'em. Get to know your farmer and food producer, not your banker. People think nothing of waiting in line at banks. Waiting in line at movies. Waiting in lines for frivolities and bullshit. When there are lines at the local farm markets you'll be glad you're on the inside.

MagpieFairy | 06-01-2009 12:55 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Quote:
Originally Posted by momopanda (Post 1748693) These bills, dozens of them, scream one thing at you. Get to know your local food producers. It's time to go backward in this regard folks. Do it now and avoid the rush. And it can , and should, be none of the goobermint's GD business. Cheapskate that I am, I will gladly spend a few extra frn's to buy food I know and believe in as opposed to stockpiling some extra bullion. If it comes in a pretty colored freakin' box, generally speaking, it's a scam, one way or ta other. Either because it's nutritionally vacuous, or because it's a corporate scam enriching marketers and distributors and packagers and marketers and shippers (and thereby fuel companies) and marketers and chemical companies (fuel again!) and store owners and marketers (did I mention the marketers?)(yeah I know i sound like a tin foil hattie), instead of farmers and raisers. The percentage of income that people spend on food has been going down for a long time. That is going to change. Take a weekend and visit a local sustainable operation. Believe it or not there are tons of them, and they are staging a comebackl (don't call it a comeback i been here for years!). "Personal Banker" cries the marketing headline. F 'em. Get to know your farmer and food producer, not your banker. People think nothing of waiting in line at banks. Waiting in line at movies. Waiting in lines for frivolities and bullshit. When there are lines at the local farm markets you'll be glad you're on the inside.
Yup, Momo speaketh wisdom.... even though we've got a huge garden going this year, I am making a field trip every Saturday to different farmers markets and flea markets to not only buy stuff I'm not growing, but to get to know the other local farmers. Chickens are not that hard to raise... I suggest that anyone who can deal with them, get a few. The city of Roswell, GA just made "pet" chickens legal within city limits and the more people who have 'em, the more of a cluckerfluck it'll be for the gooberment to try and keep up with them. :biggrin:

thorgrim | 06-01-2009 01:24 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Anyone here that is worried about NAIS needs to start learning about contract law now. It is highly unlikely that the government can force you (unless you unwittingly agree) to put tracking chips in your animals as long as you know who you are and who you are not and arrange your affairs accordingly.

Silver Belle | 06-01-2009 01:38 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business RE: Facts and Myths about NAIS (posted by Ryedale) FACT: Source of this info is the USDA, itself. Of course, they are not going to show the negative impact. They want it to happen. http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/...yths-color.pdf These facts are based on my personal knowledge of NAIS after working to fight it for the past two years. FACT: Participation IS voluntary at the federal level. The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) is implementing a National Animal Identification System (NAIS), claiming authority under the Animal Health Protection Act of 2002. USDA�s primary method for implementing NAIS is through federal funding of state programs. Although USDA states that NAIS is �voluntary at the federal level,� it is using funds approved by Congress to pressure states to implement mandatory or coercive programs. In response to the public�s objections to NAIS, over the last two years, bills have been filed in 15 states to limit or completely halt NAIS. Several states have already implemented legislation to reject NAIS. Unfortunately, other states, such as Wisconsin and Indiana have implemented mandatory NAIS. RECOMMENDATION: Work hard on the state level to keep it out of your own state. Don�t even waste your time with your national government officials. They are not listening and they just refer you back to the USDA. If we are going to make a difference, it needs to be done at the grass roots level � in your statehouse, not on Capitol Hill. Good sources of reliable info: http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/nais.html http://www.ftcldf.org/nais.html Fact: The focus of NAIS is animal agriculture - livestock and/or poultry � and not pets. This is true. However, that does not mean someone who has a small flock of chickens or goats, etc. will be exempt. After all, those chicks or goat kids had to come from someplace � unless they were raised on your own farm from your own breeding stock. If NAIS is implemented in your state, you will become part of that identification chain, as the hatchery will have to report where they sent the day old chicks to and the farmer down the road will have to report that he sold you that milk goat. From the USDA website referenced at the beginning�the following are exempt. (My comments are in bold and based on the premise �if NAIS is implemented in your state��) � Livestock that never leave the premises of their birth, even if they move from pasture to pasture within that premises, do not need to be identified. Did you buy your day old chicks from a hatchery? If so, they will need to be identified and followed. Did you buy a milk goat from your neighbor down the road? It will need paperwork and an RFID chip. � Animals that never leave their premises other than when they "get out" � Animals that are only moved directly from their birth premises to custom slaughter (for personal use). If you are selling this meat, like I do, to folks at farmers� markets � they will need to be identified. � The participation of animals in local trail rides Unable to comment on this one. No personal knowledge. However, trail ride horses are probably not part of the food chain, so probably fine. � The movement of animals to small local parades or fairs "(Many local fairs and similar events may have their own animal identification requirements that are not affected by NAIS. You should check with animal health officials or event organizers for any such existing requirements.)" This is not necessarily true. I have family members in three states the Midwest who were required to produce proof of a registered NAIS premise ID in order to show at their local county fairs. When I told them that they could fight this, they said, �but they won�t let us show the animals if we don�t comply�. (They just think I am a militant, anyway � so they don�t always listen.) Anyway, they complied and � lo and behold � enough people put up resistance that they dropped that requirement. However, it is too late for the sheeple who already registered their premises because someone in charge told them to do so. They�re now in the database and regret the decision to comply. Again, if you have pet livestock who are born, die and never leave the place � you�re right. They will be exempt. However, the impact is not going to be on the pet people � it is going to be on the small, local producers for whom the implementation will be cost-prohibitive. What the USDA did not share in the facts and myths is that big industrial ag producers will be able to get a �lot ID� for large groups of cattle. Plus, corporate ag has the financial means and the lobbying power to back this up � not the little guy selling natural and locally grown foods at his or her local farmers� market who is typically operating on less than 80 acres. Every penny counts with the little guys. Fact: NAIS is being touted as a way to make the food supply safer. This is not true, as there is nothing about NAIS that deals with foods before they hit the food supply. It is all about tracking back after the fact � after the salmonella outbreak. It will not make it any safer than it did with the pistachios or the peanuts � and they weren�t even livestock. Also, you will find that none of these outbreaks to date have included pasture raised, locally grown products by small farmers. Our foods are not co-mingled with 1000 others before they hit your plate. If you buy meat from me, I can tell you exactly which animal it came from. If you buy eggs, I can show you the chicken and how she is living. No traceback is necessary. If you buy a burger in a store�good luck. You�re on your own. The best way to make sure that your food supply is safe is to take Momopanda�s advice and get to know your local growers. We love to meet people and to show you how and where your food has been grown. Build a personal relationship with your local farmer. You may pay a few $$ more for food, but you can be sure that you know who and how it was raised. In recent months, Obama has promised to �bolster food safety� with the creation of a Food Safety Working Group. I�m all for food safety. Heck, that�s why I grow my own food! However, I am not all for federal intervention in everything we do. All I can say about voluntary NAIS is it is not mandatory YET. My guess is that it will be akin to the 55 mile per hour speed limit. States won't have to require it -- but -- if a state doesn't, it can kiss its federal funding goodbye in that particular area. Again, to me...the key word is 'yet'. I�ll bet that five years ago most bankers or GM employees did not think that the federal government would own a stake of those industries. I have been actively fighting NAIS for the past two years and, while not a complete expert, I do have a pretty good working knowledge of the issue. While to me, the personal privacy and liberty aspect is appalling -- the sad part is that if implemented, I can just about assure you that your local farmers' markets will dry up because if it costs each of us a few thousand dollars a year to comply, we won't be able to afford to do it.

MagpieFairy | 06-01-2009 01:52 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Belle (Post 1748829) Fact: The focus of NAIS is animal agriculture - livestock and/or poultry � and not pets. This is true. However, that does not mean someone who has a small flock of chickens or goats, etc. will be exempt. After all, those chicks or goat kids had to come from someplace � unless they were raised on your own farm from your own breeding stock. If NAIS is implemented in your state, you will become part of that identification chain, as the hatchery will have to report where they sent the day old chicks to and the farmer down the road will have to report that he sold you that milk goat.
Silver Belle, if you already own the animals before NAIS becomes a requirement, would you still have to register them? Is there any sort of "Grandfather clause" on this in respect to small share holders with animals only for their own personal use? Admittedly, I wish I really knew more about this.... hard to keep up with it all when you're actually working a farm.

Silver Belle | 06-01-2009 01:57 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Quote:
Originally Posted by thorgrim (Post 1748806) Anyone here that is worried about NAIS needs to start learning about contract law now. It is highly unlikely that the government can force you (unless you unwittingly agree) to put tracking chips in your animals as long as you know who you are and who you are not and arrange your affairs accordingly.
I agree on the unwittingly agreeing part -- see my post above. However, the USDA and state departments of agriculture can -- and do -- force folks to do lots of things against our will. If we want to make a living at this -- we have to play by their rules. There are efforts underway in many states right now to reduce the requirements on small farmers doing direct-to-consumer sales, but until that time -- if I lived in Wisconsin and wanted to sell my eggs or chicken at the farmers' market -- or wanted to take a lamb or goat to the local county fair -- I would have to jump through the hoops. As an aside -- each time we jump through those hoops, we realize more and more what a farce many of them really are. Our food is no safer. In fact, if you would look at the way things are slaughtered in a USDA plant vs. a good, local farmer it is easy to see which one you would prefer to eat -- and it wouldn't be the one bearing the USDA seal, I can assure you. The local farmer/grower takes pride in his/her product and business flourishes or dies based upon the way they treat their customers and the way they raise their food. If my product was not good -- I would be out of business. They would take their business elsewhere. One more example of bureaucratic stupidity re: livestock: We live very close to our state line and when my kids were still young enough to be in 4-H and showing their animals, if we wanted to show at the fair that is only 6 miles from our house, we needed to jump through the hoops to get out of state health papers stamped by our state vet in addition to the veterinary inspection that our own state required. I actually drove to the state capital to the state Dept of Ag each year to get these papers stamped (as they were notorious for taking forever to get them back to you by mail) and when we went down there, I took all of the proper documentation and explained that our papers needed to be reviewed and stamped by the State Veterinarian. Silly me...I thought he would actually look at them. Instead, the receptionist pulled out a rubber stamp and stamped them (without looking at any of the documentation I was ready to provide) and sent us on our way. Others had the same experience and laughed when I told them how surprised I was at this the first time. Her stamping that paper without looking at it made it no safer for me to take my kids' animals across the state line -- just like putting an RFID chip in my goat is not going to make it any safer to eat.

Ryedale | 06-01-2009 02:07 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Quote:
Originally Posted by MagpieFairy (Post 1748767) Yup, Momo speaketh wisdom.... even though we've got a huge garden going this year, I am making a field trip every Saturday to different farmers markets and flea markets to not only buy stuff I'm not growing, but to get to know the other local farmers. Chickens are not that hard to raise... I suggest that anyone who can deal with them, get a few. The city of Roswell, GA just made "pet" chickens legal within city limits and the more people who have 'em, the more of a cluckerfluck it'll be for the gooberment to try and keep up with them. :biggrin:
I have 39 Pet chickens. <TABLE style="WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=64 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64 height=17>Alice</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Amber</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Becky</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Cindy</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Dawn</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Ellen</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Ethyl</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Fiona</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Gertrude</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Gretchen</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Heather</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Hellen</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Holly</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Ilene</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Jen</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Joy</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Kelly</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Kristy</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Linda</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Lisa</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Lori</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Maude</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Mellanie</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Nancy</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Nelly</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Opal</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Pat</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Rachel</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Sally</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Shelly</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Suzzette</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Tina</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Toni</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Tonya</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Tori</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Trinka</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Vespa</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Wynona</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Yolanda</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Goldhedge | 06-01-2009 02:10 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryedale (Post 1748667) <table border="0" cellspacing="5" width="353"><tbody><tr><tr><td class="BodyTextBlack">Fact: Participation in NAIS is voluntary at the Federal level. There are no Federal penalties or other "enforcement" mechanisms associated with the program. You will not be penalized by USDA at all if you choose not to participate in the program.</td></tr></tr></tbody></table>
Lest we forget... The Social Security TIN is also 'voluntary'....

Silver Belle | 06-01-2009 02:13 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Quote:
Originally Posted by MagpieFairy (Post 1748870) Silver Belle, if you already own the animals before NAIS becomes a requirement, would you still have to register them? Is there any sort of "Grandfather clause" on this in respect to small share holders with animals only for their own personal use? Admittedly, I wish I really knew more about this.... hard to keep up with it all when you're actually working a farm.
I'm sure it will depend upon your particular state's interpretation (the good thing is -- more and more states are starting to push back), but the part that jumps out to me from what you wrote was 'for personal use'. If they are for personal use, I'm guessing that you'll be ok -- but I certainly don't know enough about what each state will do to be able to give you expert advice. I know what I'd do, though...and I think I'd 'remember' that they must have been born at my place from that old ewe we had forever who died of old age or was killed by a predator. I would think that it would be hard to make folks comply pre-implementation. For example, if you purchased hens from Craig's List -- you might have no clue who you got them from or how to track them down. I know I sound like a militant on this topic...but I guess it is because it is near and dear to my heart and has the ability to have a tremendous potential impact on the small, family business that we have been working to build over the years.

AMforPM | 06-01-2009 02:25 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business It won't let me comment at the online link you list. It says 'timed out' then switches me to a search function. Of course, it is June 1. Any email method? I'm against it strongly since I greatly prefer local food and this is so clearly agribiz trying to tighten its death grip (literally) on Americans. The fascist biz model where the guns back the monopolies. Stinko!

Silver Belle | 06-01-2009 03:18 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Quote:
Originally Posted by AMforPM (Post 1748932) It won't let me comment at the online link you list. It says 'timed out' then switches me to a search function. Of course, it is June 1. Any email method? I'm against it strongly since I greatly prefer local food and this is so clearly agribiz trying to tighten its death grip (literally) on Americans. The fascist biz model where the guns back the monopolies. Stinko!
Try this link below. In the upper right hand part of the page you will see 'contact us'. The dropdown has an area for 'General NAIS Feedback'. http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/ Thanks for taking the time to do this! Every little bit helps. :grin:

AMforPM | 06-01-2009 03:43 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business I sent them a comment to confine it to large feedlots, where the problem lies, or drop it altogether and just stick with meat inspection. I said I got my grass fed beef from a small rancher for whom the costs would likely be business ending, with no food safety benefit at all since those animals never went to a feedlot. Then I piled on that an economic downturn was the worst possible time to add to the cost of food production.

Silver Belle | 06-01-2009 03:56 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Quote:
Originally Posted by thorgrim (Post 1748806) Anyone here that is worried about NAIS needs to start learning about contract law now. It is highly unlikely that the government can force you (unless you unwittingly agree) to put tracking chips in your animals as long as you know who you are and who you are not and arrange your affairs accordingly.
One more thing about the lack of the voluntary aspect...emphasis below was added by me. Quote:
Legal Defense Fund to Answer to USDA, Michigan Department of Agriculture Motions to Dismiss NAIS Suit Motions Falsely Claim NAIS is a Voluntary Program FALLS CHURCH, Va., Dec 15, 2008 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Motions filed by the U.S. and Michigan Departments of Agriculture seeking to dismiss the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund suit to stop the implementation of the National Animal Identification System (NAIS), incorrectly claim that NAIS is a voluntary program. "Even as the agencies try to deny the clear facts of what they have done in Michigan, the USDA recently issued a memo that confirms what the Fund has stated in its lawsuit: NAIS is not voluntary," said Pete Kennedy, interim president of the Fund. Kennedy cited Veterinary Services Memorandum No. 575.19 addressed to USDA's "Veterinary Services Management Team" that requires NAIS premises registration for various disease program activities. "The memo includes activities such as vaccinations, testing, and applying official ear tags for programs for every livestock species, ranging from brucellosis to scrapies to equine infectious anemia," Kennedy noted. "One of the most important aspects of this memo is that people who refuse to have their farms registered will be registered against their will. Thus, USDA has officially abandoned the supposed 'voluntary' nature of NAIS." NAIS is the USDA's plan to electronically track every livestock animal in the country. The Michigan Department of Agriculture has implemented the first two stages of NAIS - property registration and animal identification - for all those who own cattle across the state as part of a state-wide bovine tuberculosis disease control program required by a grant from the USDA. The suit, which was filed in the U.S. District Court - District of Columbia on September 8 asks the court to issue an injunction to stop the implementation of NAIS at both the state and the federal levels by any state or federal agency. If successful, the suit would halt the program nationwide. The suit charges that USDA has never published rules regarding NAIS, in violation of the Federal Administrative Procedures Act; has never performed an Environmental Impact Statement or an Environmental Assessment as required by the National Environmental Policy Act; is in violation of the Regulatory Flexibility Act that requires the USDA to analyze proposed rules for their impact on small entities and local governments; and violates religious freedoms guaranteed by the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. "Other mandatory implementations, which weave NAIS into existing regulatory programs, have occurred in the States of Wisconsin and Indiana where premises registration has been made mandatory; in drought-stricken North Carolina and Tennessee, where farmers have been required to register their premises in order to obtain hay relief; and in Colorado where state fairs are requiring participants to register their premises under NAIS," explained Judith McGeary, a member of the Farm-to-Consumer Fund board and the executive director of the Farm and Ranch Freedom Alliance.
SOURCE: Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund and Farm-to-Consumer Foundation http://www.farmtoconsumer.org.

Silver Belle | 06-01-2009 03:57 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Quote:
Originally Posted by AMforPM (Post 1749033) I sent them a comment to confine it to large feedlots, where the problem lies, or drop it altogether and just stick with meat inspection. I said I got my grass fed beef from a small rancher for whom the costs would likely be business ending, with no food safety benefit at all since those animals never went to a feedlot. Then I piled on that an economic downturn was the worst possible time to add to the cost of food production.
Thank you!

Nomoss | 06-01-2009 04:51 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Bump for link. Thank you ALL for the info.

MagpieFairy | 06-01-2009 04:52 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Belle (Post 1748914) I'm sure it will depend upon your particular state's interpretation (the good thing is -- more and more states are starting to push back), but the part that jumps out to me from what you wrote was 'for personal use'. If they are for personal use, I'm guessing that you'll be ok -- but I certainly don't know enough about what each state will do to be able to give you expert advice. I know what I'd do, though...and I think I'd 'remember' that they must have been born at my place from that old ewe we had forever who died of old age or was killed by a predator. I would think that it would be hard to make folks comply pre-implementation. For example, if you purchased hens from Craig's List -- you might have no clue who you got them from or how to track them down. I know I sound like a militant on this topic...but I guess it is because it is near and dear to my heart and has the ability to have a tremendous potential impact on the small, family business that we have been working to build over the years.
Thanks for your insight.... and yup, being honest may not be the best way to proceed. I learned that on health insurance. As fpr personal use. I would probably never raise chicks to sell if it became so effing ridiculous. Eggs either. I have 17 "pets" with feathers right now and I'd like to get a couple of goats soon. I think GA NAIS is still voluntary, but who knows where it will go. Ya know, I hated being subjected to whim of authority (including my parents) when I was in high school. I foolishly believed back then that one day as an adult, I would not have to answer to anyone except the taxman. Now not only am I afraid of the people in LE, but I feel like I'm back in HS again with all of the freaking rules and bullshit that keeps getting thrown at me. I'm beginning to think being a hermit wouldn't be so bad....

7th trump | 06-01-2009 05:13 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Belle (Post 1748877) I agree on the unwittingly agreeing part -- see my post above. However, the USDA and state departments of agriculture can -- and do -- force folks to do lots of things against our will. If we want to make a living at this -- we have to play by their rules. There are efforts underway in many states right now to reduce the requirements on small farmers doing direct-to-consumer sales, but until that time -- if I lived in Wisconsin and wanted to sell my eggs or chicken at the farmers' market -- or wanted to take a lamb or goat to the local county fair -- I would have to jump through the hoops. As an aside -- each time we jump through those hoops, we realize more and more what a farce many of them really are. Our food is no safer. In fact, if you would look at the way things are slaughtered in a USDA plant vs. a good, local farmer it is easy to see which one you would prefer to eat -- and it wouldn't be the one bearing the USDA seal, I can assure you. The local farmer/grower takes pride in his/her product and business flourishes or dies based upon the way they treat their customers and the way they raise their food. If my product was not good -- I would be out of business. They would take their business elsewhere. One more example of bureaucratic stupidity re: livestock: We live very close to our state line and when my kids were still young enough to be in 4-H and showing their animals, if we wanted to show at the fair that is only 6 miles from our house, we needed to jump through the hoops to get out of state health papers stamped by our state vet in addition to the veterinary inspection that our own state required. I actually drove to the state capital to the state Dept of Ag each year to get these papers stamped (as they were notorious for taking forever to get them back to you by mail) and when we went down there, I took all of the proper documentation and explained that our papers needed to be reviewed and stamped by the State Veterinarian. Silly me...I thought he would actually look at them. Instead, the receptionist pulled out a rubber stamp and stamped them (without looking at any of the documentation I was ready to provide) and sent us on our way. Others had the same experience and laughed when I told them how surprised I was at this the first time. Her stamping that paper without looking at it made it no safer for me to take my kids' animals across the state line -- just like putting an RFID chip in my goat is not going to make it any safer to eat.
I dont get your post at all. You supposedly understand the "unwittingly" part of this which should be your focal point of what Thorgrim is pointing out, but yet write a paragraph or so on how you would go to the county fair and show off your livestock or produce just to show off? So you are "wittingly" ready to jump through the hoops just to show off at the couty fair? I must ask why are you even posting at all if you are not really going to do the homework to stay out of being "unwittingly". Who cares about pride or the ego because to do something about then is too late. Sounds like your ego overrides any common sense that might be screaming at you at a distance! The situation that coming to a head here is coming down to knowing if you are either all in or all out instead of fence riding. You cant have it both ways and an ego is a monkey on your back that cant be afforded. Sorry if I sound the way I do but I call it the way it is.

Silver Belle | 06-01-2009 05:46 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Quote:
Originally Posted by 7th trump (Post 1749162) I dont get your post at all. You supposedly understand the "unwittingly" part of this which should be your focal point of what Thorgrim is pointing out, but yet write a paragraph or so on how you would go to the county fair and show off your livestock or produce just to show off? So you are "wittingly" ready to jump through the hoops just to show off at the couty fair? I must ask why are you even posting at all if you are not really going to do the homework to stay out of being "unwittingly". Who cares about pride or the ego because to do something about then is too late. Sounds like your ego overrides any common sense that might be screaming at you at a distance! The situation that coming to a head here is coming down to knowing if you are either all in or all out instead of fence riding. You cant have it both ways and an ego is a monkey on your back that cant be afforded. Sorry if I sound the way I do but I call it the way it is.
Sorry if it was confusing. I was actually referencing an earlier post re: the unwitting part. My kids used to show animals when they were younger and in 4-H (pre-NAIS). They are grown now and we have not shown livestock in years. Actually, I have not unwittingly signed up for premise ID. Unfortunately, any hoops through which we have jumped to try to remain compliant and to be able to provide our products to the public have been done wittingly -- begrudgingly, but wittingly. My point was that several folks I know had unwittingly felt 'forced' to register for something that is still voluntary in their state -- despite advice from several of us that it was not a good idea (this was referenced in a previous post -- sorry for confusion). They were strong armed because they were told by someone 'in charge' that this is what they needed to do -- despite the fact that several of us told them it was a bad idea. They are rules followers. Good people who don't want to cause any trouble. No egos involved. In fact, most of these folks are as humble and modest as can be and just wanted to follow the rules. Farm folks don't take their animals to the fair to 'show off' -- they typically do it for one of two reasons. 1. Their kids are in 4-H or FFA and the county fair is the culmination of the child's hard work for the year. It is often as much a rural social event and rite of passage as anything else. Plus, if they have raised a market animal, they are able to sell it in the auction and use that money for college, etc. 2. For the adult livestock breeder it is a way to promote your livestock to other breeders and to help your business grow. If one does well on the show circuit, this can translate into increased sales or breeding fees in the years ahead. Again, sorry for the confusion.

des00s | 06-01-2009 06:53 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business This is already mandatory in Canada and it is being introduced in many other countries. This is from the New Zealand government website: Will there be a transition process between the current and new systems? Yes. Implementation of the NAIT system is intended to be a staged process. The system will operate initially on a non-mandatory sign-up basis in order to bed down systems and processes until it is regulated in mid-2011. http://www.maf.govt.nz/mafnet/animal...nd-tracing.htm

Silver Belle | 06-01-2009 08:48 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business In Australia, too...and it is interesting to read that a large part of the population (not just the farmers) are opposed to it. I know you guys are probably getting sick of me yapping about this, :508:but if you're interested, there are a number of articles on the problems they are having in some of these other countries with the same types of programs. For now, though, unless someone is interested in reading about the problems in Australia re: their program, I'll do my best to hush (hard as that is for me) and to put my little soapbox away for a wee bit.

MagpieFairy | 06-01-2009 09:21 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Quote:
Originally Posted by 7th trump (Post 1749162) I dont get your post at all. You supposedly understand the "unwittingly" part of this which should be your focal point of what Thorgrim is pointing out, but yet write a paragraph or so on how you would go to the county fair and show off your livestock or produce just to show off? So you are "wittingly" ready to jump through the hoops just to show off at the couty fair? I must ask why are you even posting at all if you are not really going to do the homework to stay out of being "unwittingly". Who cares about pride or the ego because to do something about then is too late. Sounds like your ego overrides any common sense that might be screaming at you at a distance! The situation that coming to a head here is coming down to knowing if you are either all in or all out instead of fence riding. You cant have it both ways and an ego is a monkey on your back that cant be afforded. Sorry if I sound the way I do but I call it the way it is.
Why do you always feel the need to come in a take a big ol' stinking crap in a thread where people are having a congenial conversation? :bear_rolleyes:

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Silver Belle | 06-01-2009 09:34 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Quote:
Originally Posted by MagpieFairy (Post 1749489) Why do you always feel the need to come in a take a big ol' stinking crap in a thread where people are having a congenial conversation? :bear_rolleyes:
His first line says it all, I guess... "I don't get your post at all." Here I thought I was just unclear. Thanks for the support, Magpie. :bear_thumb: Oh...and I was wrong about horses. Even though they are not part f the food supply, there is, apparently, still a push to include them in NAIS, too. I had not paid attention to that part, as I was mainly focused on the things that will impact our little farm business. I have included two links -- fair and balanced reporting -- one from the folks in the field who are not happy with it and the other being the official 'line' re: why it will be so wonderful for horse owners. http://www.mo-equine.org/NAIS/Against.htm http://www.equinespeciesworkinggroup.com/ (Ok...so I lied...I have not quite stepped off that little soapbox for the evening.)

AMforPM | 06-02-2009 10:13 AM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business I like your soapbox. This is big bro getting ready to starve the population into submission. Agribiz has business plans to control global caloric intake and other monopolies (like coca cola) to control liquid intake. This is no joke. It is the jackboot for very hard times. Submit or die of hunger or thirst. The global curse of small farmer suicides is the even meaner version in less developed countries where they aren't as careful about showing their teeth. Being more open in oz and NZ, to my mind just says they already took in the public's guns.

Silver Belle | 06-02-2009 10:48 AM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business G-Kahn posted a great thread that speaks to this last night. I think it's titled "The Homegrown Revolution". It's about 10 min long, but definitely worth a look.

Silver Belle | 06-02-2009 10:51 AM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Obilly...I have to tell you that your post actually gave me a physical chill when I read it. Quote:
Posted by Obilly: first they came for the cows, nobody said anything, then they came for the pigs, nobody said anything, then they came for the chickens, nobody said anything, then they came for you (rfid). mark of the beast nothing to eat.

thorgrim | 06-02-2009 12:25 PM
Re: USDA Admits NAIS Will Put Small Farmers Out of Business Silver Belle, by the sounds of it the farmers markets and fairs are helping to enforce the government regulations by not letting you participate without your "papers" in order. Is that correct? If so then it is time to figure out another way to distribute your products. I mentioned this in another thread about GMO food and them talking about putting the swine flu vaccine in corn. We need to start looking for the solutions to these problems. It is good to recognize the problem but focusing on the problem isn't going to accomplish anything. 7th trump put it well when he said that "you are either all in or all out." It is time that we make a decision to either cut all ties with government regulation and operate as free men that have the right to make a living and grow/raise our own food or we go along with it. Standing up for your rights isn't easy but in my mind is preferable to submission and death by 1000's cuts.

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