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- - why doom? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=331132)

simplelife | 12-14-2008 11:33 PM
why doom? I get the picture that depression is likely, possibly short term supply disruptions, unrest, etc. But what leads some here to assume total doom, that powergrid will shut down, zombies etc.? Just look at callpases in other countries without the resources we have, and they managed to keep society together...to a degree. Not that I rule doom out. I just dont see the rational for it. I certainly see possibly a lot of soup kitchins and hungry, elderly dying of cold, a lot a sad stories of dispare and individual doom, but not total system callapse doom.

Glass | 12-14-2008 11:40 PM
Re: why doom? If police cannot get paid, who will be a policeman? Volunteers? If the 911 line is dead then who is going to come sort out your problem? If the truck driver's company cannot got cash flow (credit lines) for running the business, who delivers the food. If farmers cannot get the credit to plant, who is growing the food. The list goes on, you get the idea. How long could you last without any income for 3 or 6 months? How long before you started thinking about pinching food from someone else? A shopkeeper or neighbor? Here is something that will become pretty common soon: Hey Bud. Got any change?

____hoot____ | 12-14-2008 11:41 PM
Re: why doom? Suggest you take a long long look at that 500 million "sustainable" world population figure that TPTB have engraved on the sides of the Georgia Guide Stones. Are you going to be one of the "lucky" 7%?

Caligula | 12-14-2008 11:46 PM
Re: why doom? Quote:
Originally Posted by simplelife (Post 1466065) I certainly see possibly a lot of soup kitchins and hungry, elderly dying of cold, a lot a sad stories of dispare and individual doom, but not total system callapse doom.
Keep looking around. You'll "see" it eventually.

Weho Dave | 12-14-2008 11:48 PM
Re: why doom? Infrastructure collapse follows economic collapse. Look at Detroit. Just imagine that on a national scale.

TechGuy | 12-14-2008 11:55 PM
Re: why doom? Why? Because it is not as much fun to plan for a large scale inconvenience. PS> You buy life insurance don't you? Planning for the day you die? That is VERY doomish. I am planning for the day I live.

Lt Dan | 12-15-2008 12:01 AM
Re: why doom? Lots of folks in denial over doom. Not this old guy! Figure it is coming, hoping I'm wrong.

simplelife | 12-15-2008 12:11 AM
Re: why doom? Quote:
Originally Posted by Glass (Post 1466080) If police cannot get paid, who will be a policeman? Volunteers? If the 911 line is dead then who is going to come sort out your problem? If the truck driver's company cannot got cash flow (credit lines) for running the business, who delivers the food. If farmers cannot get the credit to plant, who is growing the food. The list goes on, you get the idea. How long could you last without any income for 3 or 6 months? How long before you started thinking about pinching food from someone else? A shopkeeper or neighbor? Here is something that will become pretty common soon: Hey Bud. Got any change?
Yes but biggov can step in with FRN's to keep things going, it would be a "soviet" style life, no frills, but still have your lights on. Certainly the world would not be as much fun, poverty for most because central planning is ineffecient, but yet good enough to avoid starvation of masses (at least in a recource rich country like U.S.

simplelife | 12-15-2008 12:15 AM
Re: why doom? Quote:
Originally Posted by Weho Dave (Post 1466091) Infrastructure collapse follows economic collapse. Look at Detroit. Just imagine that on a national scale.
Yes but even detroit is better than some of the doom talk. they have food, water, power. Part of the problem there is also "social culture" not just economics. And, in other areas where "social culture" is much healthier, the situation will not be nearly so dire, though it will be tough.

simplelife | 12-15-2008 12:24 AM
Re: why doom? Quote:
Originally Posted by TechGuy (Post 1466100) Why? Because it is not as much fun to plan for a large scale inconvenience. PS> You buy life insurance don't you? Planning for the day you die? That is VERY doomish. I am planning for the day I live.
Not inconvenient, just impossible on a shoestring budget:bawling: I do not have life insurance, I hate insurance and only have legally mandated liablity. I do however see prudence in planning for the day I live, you ar correct in that. And I am not argueing against hedging for total doom, heck if I had the FRN's I would have ubberbunker with jucuzzi and tenniscourt and my own missile defence system. I am just questioning the rational for "expecting" total doom, not hedging against it.

Weho Dave | 12-15-2008 12:30 AM
Re: why doom? Quote:
Originally Posted by simplelife (Post 1466118) Yes but even detroit is better than some of the doom talk. they have food, water, power. Part of the problem there is also "social culture" not just economics. And, in other areas where "social culture" is much healthier, the situation will not be nearly so dire, though it will be tough.
I believe the "social culture" of Detroit was much better some decades ago. I would expect "social culture" to deteriorate along with the economics of the nation. As far as food, water, power, etc. I read here that the last grocery store chain left Detroit recently. Also there are entire blocks without water and electricity because the pipes and wires get stolen as soon as they are put in. Also, I read here that USPS mail carriers refuse to go to certain areas without armed police protection. And it will get worse.

damoc | 12-15-2008 12:55 AM
Re: why doom? increasing population decreasing resources sooner or later the two will collide its unavoidable its natural throw in a bit of human greed and its only a matter of when? i dont know when I think most of the posters on this board will admit they dont know when but what does it hurt to be a little prepared for when things become unsustainable?

StrawMan=Corporation | 12-15-2008 02:07 AM
Re: why doom? People lived before all of the modern convinces didn't they ? If the infrastructure and economic systems crumble just consider this de-evolution of society on a large scale. Improvise, Adapt and Overcome oh and learn. Maybe its time to rely upon ourselves and stop relying on others. Yes that may mean growing your own food, slaughtering your own livestock, teaching your children, etc. Quote:
Originally Posted by Glass (Post 1466080) If police cannot get paid, who will be a policeman? Volunteers? If the 911 line is dead then who is going to come sort out your problem? If the truck driver's company cannot got cash flow (credit lines) for running the business, who delivers the food. If farmers cannot get the credit to plant, who is growing the food. The list goes on, you get the idea. How long could you last without any income for 3 or 6 months? How long before you started thinking about pinching food from someone else? A shopkeeper or neighbor? Here is something that will become pretty common soon: Hey Bud. Got any change?

ruprick | 12-15-2008 02:34 AM
Re: why doom? When our government starts to FRN paper over the problems...we start heading down the hyperinflation road....next thing you know it is Germany between the wars.....but we have millions of inner-city animals that will go full on criminal everywhere....just picture new orleans ....but everywhere....or the LA riots....everywhere. BTW: There will be no more imports when the printing presses really get fired up....the world will not want to trade their goods for our FRN. Game over at that moment .....except for what we can produce here....and that will be all screwed up.....as mentioned above in first reply...

Miin | 12-15-2008 02:53 AM
Re: why doom? Once you start looking how "our" system works you quickly realize it's a miracle it has been able to go on for so long. People really don't realize a system of this magnitude with so many variables has to (partially) crash sometime. Anything in life stops working at one time or another ... I don't see how society would be any different. You crash and reboot (and hopefully try to avoid the "actions" that sparked the crash last time).

JoBob | 12-15-2008 09:09 AM
Re: why doom? Quote:
Originally Posted by Miin (Post 1466260) . People really don't realize a system of this magnitude with so many variables has to (partially) crash sometime. .... You crash and reboot (and hopefully try to avoid the "actions" that sparked the crash last time).
Very nicely put. The more complex and interdependent our infrastructure becomes, the more failure points there are. The lower down in the supply/support hierarchy a failure occurs, the faster and more widespread the effects become. If all grocery stores suddenly disappeared, it would be an inconvenience we could quickly overcome. If all the farms disappeared for whatever reason, we would be in a very, very severe "doom" situation. We eat petroleum. Our society runs on it. Any chink in that supply stream causes a chain reaction of systemic failures that affect everything we are accustomed to calling "civilization". Machines slow down and deliveries stop. Available food disappears. Panicked populations get hungry after a few days and morality shifts to self-preservation above all else. People have guns and begin to use them. Bad leads to worse. In the past when societies were not as technologically as advanced as ours, losing a farm or a woodcutter here and there didn't cause a country to fail. Everything we have now is built on an inverted pyramid of systems that absolutely must work without fail, all the time, no exceptions allowed. IF anything at the bottom of that support breaks, then everything can fail quickly and spectacularly. Failure has not happened but that does not mean it cannot happen. There are lots of bad people around the world who would like to see it happen. We may be a bit paranoid but we also have good reason to be once we start looking at where we live up in the inverted pyramid and look at the sources of energy way, way down at the bottom. Remember what it's like after a hurricane or a winter storm and doing without electricity. Then imagine everyone being in the same boat at the same time. That's a good example of doom. You can reboot the system but there are no ALT-CTRL-DEL buttons that work fast enough when the world stops. When people miss three meals, the rules change to the dark side. That is doom. That's why preparation may not be so foolish as it appears. It may not be effective but it is doing all that can be done. Remember that paranoia and pessimism go together.

benton432 | 12-15-2008 09:16 AM
Re: why doom? Quote:
Originally Posted by simplelife (Post 1466065) I get the picture that depression is likely, possibly short term supply disruptions, unrest, etc. But what leads some here to assume total doom, that powergrid will shut down, zombies etc.? Just look at callpases in other countries without the resources we have, and they managed to keep society together...to a degree. Not that I rule doom out. I just dont see the rational for it. I certainly see possibly a lot of soup kitchins and hungry, elderly dying of cold, a lot a sad stories of dispare and individual doom, but not total system callapse doom.
You Tube
You Tube

BellevueBully | 12-15-2008 10:55 AM
Re: why doom? Because people are generally selfish, and when you couple that with desparity, hunger and weapons, the most likely outcome is violence.

Sparky | 12-15-2008 11:30 AM
Re: why doom? I think simplelife poses an excellent question. I maintain that our standard of living during a "crash" will continue to exceed that of the 1930's. I don't deny that the "doom" scenario is a real possibility, but I would give it a probability of well under 10%. Still large enough to prep for...

meatman | 12-15-2008 12:02 PM
Re: why doom? SHTF for most is missing a meal or 2 SHTF for me is killing everyday just for yourself and your family to live

simplelife | 12-15-2008 12:48 PM
Re: why doom? Quote:
Originally Posted by Weho Dave (Post 1466135) I believe the "social culture" of Detroit was much better some decades ago. I would expect "social culture" to deteriorate along with the economics of the nation. As far as food, water, power, etc. I read here that the last grocery store chain left Detroit recently. Also there are entire blocks without water and electricity because the pipes and wires get stolen as soon as they are put in. Also, I read here that USPS mail carriers refuse to go to certain areas without armed police protection. And it will get worse.
STOP IT you are creeping me out. Can I by a vowel? I must get moving on preps.

simplelife | 12-15-2008 12:52 PM
Re: why doom? Quote:
Originally Posted by damoc (Post 1466165) increasing population decreasing resources sooner or later the two will collide its unavoidable its natural throw in a bit of human greed and its only a matter of when? i dont know when I think most of the posters on this board will admit they dont know when but what does it hurt to be a little prepared for when things become unsustainable?
I agree with this for sure. I just have trouble seeing right now as the "when" we still have plenty of oil/coal/arible farm land, at least in the short run. Doomsday certain seems plausible in 10/20 years when the oil begins to go down hill. Again, not saying that this is not "it" I just cant see it from the facts available. Yet, I certainly am going to prep.

simplelife | 12-15-2008 01:02 PM
Re: why doom? Quote:
Originally Posted by ruprick (Post 1466252) When our government starts to FRN paper over the problems...we start heading down the hyperinflation road....next thing you know it is Germany between the wars.....but we have millions of inner-city animals that will go full on criminal everywhere....just picture new orleans ....but everywhere....or the LA riots....everywhere. BTW: There will be no more imports when the printing presses really get fired up....the world will not want to trade their goods for our FRN. Game over at that moment .....except for what we can produce here....and that will be all screwed up.....as mentioned above in first reply...
I definitly think this is coming. But, again I thilnk they could keep the power on and feed the hungry even in this. Just mho. I personally feel that our status as the reserve currency of the world will be a slow process in breaking up, and we will ride that (and beneifit) to the bitter end. The rest fo the world has been scewed by the morgage debt as well, they are panicked, and will be doing much of the same things (printing money, stimulating) which keeps the stinky dollar from diving as far, since they stink too. And thus exports will not dry up over night, in fact china will desperately do what it takes to keep the dollar high to keep it's exprot market from totally crashing. and america (the great white hope) willl become the highest floating turd, at least for a few more years till the world totally wakes up. But I could be wrong.

simplelife | 12-15-2008 01:11 PM
Re: why doom? Quote:
Originally Posted by JoBob (Post 1466478) Very nicely put. The more complex and interdependent our infrastructure becomes, the more failure points there are. The lower down in the supply/support hierarchy a failure occurs, the faster and more widespread the effects become. If all grocery stores suddenly disappeared, it would be an inconvenience we could quickly overcome. If all the farms disappeared for whatever reason, we would be in a very, very severe "doom" situation. We eat petroleum. Our society runs on it. Any chink in that supply stream causes a chain reaction of systemic failures that affect everything we are accustomed to calling "civilization". Machines slow down and deliveries stop. Available food disappears. Panicked populations get hungry after a few days and morality shifts to self-preservation above all else. People have guns and begin to use them. Bad leads to worse. In the past when societies were not as technologically as advanced as ours, losing a farm or a woodcutter here and there didn't cause a country to fail. Everything we have now is built on an inverted pyramid of systems that absolutely must work without fail, all the time, no exceptions allowed. IF anything at the bottom of that support breaks, then everything can fail quickly and spectacularly. Failure has not happened but that does not mean it cannot happen. There are lots of bad people around the world who would like to see it happen. We may be a bit paranoid but we also have good reason to be once we start looking at where we live up in the inverted pyramid and look at the sources of energy way, way down at the bottom. Remember what it's like after a hurricane or a winter storm and doing without electricity. Then imagine everyone being in the same boat at the same time. That's a good example of doom. You can reboot the system but there are no ALT-CTRL-DEL buttons that work fast enough when the world stops. When people miss three meals, the rules change to the dark side. That is doom. That's why preparation may not be so foolish as it appears. It may not be effective but it is doing all that can be done. Remember that paranoia and pessimism go together.
Good points. I have considered the possiblity of terrorist attacks on food production at the bottom level. I dont know if it could be done with so much farm land ground to cover. Maybe some kind of poison in the ground? Fire? Attack of irrigation? Anyways I think it could devistate far worse than 9/11.

LowDow | 12-15-2008 01:23 PM
Re: why doom? Look at EU riots in the news recently. This may be a sign of things coming shortly,or not I don't know. But it is the first hint of rioting over the economic crisis which has enveloped the world. http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=331075 I posted this but didn't get any responses.....doesn't anybody else see a connection?

Squirrel Bait | 12-16-2008 09:34 AM
Re: why doom? Quote:
Originally Posted by simplelife (Post 1466842) Good points. I have considered the possiblity of terrorist attacks on food production at the bottom level. I dont know if it could be done with so much farm land ground to cover. Maybe some kind of poison in the ground? Fire? Attack of irrigation? Anyways I think it could devistate far worse than 9/11.
Food "production" at the farm level, will never be attacked for the reason's you mentioned. Any type of attack, to be effective, utilizes the choke points. So if I were a terrorist, or military strategist, it would be much easier, and efficient, to go for the distribution of food. You don't even have to destroy it, just slow it down. This can be done by disrupting the electric grid or finding a way to stop, or slow down the trucking industry. A well placed EMP would bring this country to it's knees. Most people can't believe that could happen yet the Russian's have publicly talked about it. If a "single" event like that occured millions would starve to death before a fix was put in place. Even a solar event, like the one that happened back in the late 1870's that shut the telegraph system down for over a week, would reek havoc. What would it do to our modern computer systems I choose to prepare. I would like to heat my house. I would like to feed my kids. I need water. If it goes on more than a few weeks I need a way to protect myself. These are just the basics. I hope you are right and something won't happen for 10-20 years. But what "if" it happens tomorrow. We live in a time of terrorists and huge military build-ups, not to mention the edge of economic collapse. HOW MANY MORE SIGNS AROUND YOU DO YOU NEED? sb

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