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RickW | 10-17-2006 04:57 PM
What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? How long can this stuff be kept. looks like good trading material?

mtnman | 10-17-2006 05:22 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Whiskey don't go bad!

flash91 | 10-17-2006 05:35 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Alcohol is one of the traditional barter products because of its longevity. Tobacco is dead leaves, not wise (although I know smokers who will sell you children if they get desparate)

Anty Ep | 10-17-2006 05:59 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Scotch and vodka keep well, whiskey too. Some brandies will oxidize especially if stored improperly. Wine is very dicey, hard to keep well for more than a few years, contrary to what's generally assumed. Squares are big trade items in jail of course and anywhere the SHTF, but, they dont store well. However, growing tobacco is not too hard from what I hear.

PatColo | 10-17-2006 06:20 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 389872) Scotch and vodka keep well, whiskey too. Some brandies will oxidize especially if stored improperly. Wine is very dicey, hard to keep well for more than a few years, contrary to what's generally assumed. Squares are big trade items in jail of course and anywhere the SHTF, but, they dont store well. However, growing tobacco is not too hard from what I hear.
I always assumed "Scotch" was just short for Scotch whiskey, no? Straighten me out! I've thought about storing booze for barter. Some kind of firewater like baccardi 151 (proof) or Everclear (180 proof), would be the best choice, from a bang for the storage-space buck perspective. Dmitry Orlov wrote that vodka was like barter rocket fuel, after USSR's collapse.

Riskfactor | 10-17-2006 06:29 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? looks like i've found my future business... :) http://www.dennisandes.com/lowbandwi...ackDaniels.jpg

RickW | 10-17-2006 06:29 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? I just thought about buying this kind of stuff and then trading for what We might need. Might not take us as much room especially if you can cryovac the cigs and canned tobacco. Just a thought.

tinman | 10-17-2006 08:09 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? I have heard of people freezing cigarettes, but I dont think that would be practical for long term survival.

softserve320 | 10-18-2006 12:00 AM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 389872) Scotch and vodka keep well, whiskey too. Some brandies will oxidize especially if stored improperly. Wine is very dicey, hard to keep well for more than a few years, contrary to what's generally assumed. Squares are big trade items in jail of course and anywhere the SHTF, but, they dont store well. However, growing tobacco is not too hard from what I hear.
Whiskey, Scotch, Vodka AND wine all keep well for years. I respectfully disagree Anty EP, wine keeps well in obvious places like root cellars and there is no need to make it fancy or expensive. Most wines are best after 1-3 years and some will not peak till after 5 or so. Both my brother and myself are certified Wine Stewards and will be planning to do some serious bartering WTSHTF. When things are 'good'...people drink. When things are 'bad'...people drink. :clap2: :coolbeer:

Unclad Lad | 10-18-2006 01:52 AM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? The particular items you choose may be influenced by where you live; if you live in tobacco country it won't be a practical trade item, will it? ;) Vodka and clear spirits will be big until the neighborhood moonshiners get reliable reputations. Whiskey, bourbon, and other aged spirits will take longer, and "the good stuff" will always have value. Beer and wine are relatively easy to make, but if you want to keep a few bottles of "Pre-Collapse" vintage, do it. Don't assume it is a trade item-there may be celebrations or milestones that call for the best. Do not underestimate the need for celebration after TEOTWAKI. We are still human, after all. Speaking of which, do not forget vanity. Did anyone see "Frontier House" on PBS a few years ago, when the women finally resorted to making their own cosmetics? After basic survival needs have been met, folks are going to thinking about attractiveness again-especially when it comes to courting. In addition to all that practical soap you pack away, add some "pretty" stuff too. Something else that will store forever is perfume and cologne. Those samples with 1 or 2 milliliters are good, as well as larger bottles. Deodorant won't last long, but a lot of health food stores have those "natural crystals" that purport to do the same thing; those should last forever, as long as they're kept dry. All of the above assumes a long-term breakdown of transportation/distribution (TEOTWAKI); for a short-time SHTF, booze and cigs are still your best bet.

softserve320 | 10-18-2006 02:14 AM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclad Lad (Post 390250) The particular items you choose may be influenced by where you live; if you live in tobacco country it won't be a practical trade item, will it? ;) Vodka and clear spirits will be big until the neighborhood moonshiners get reliable reputations. Whiskey, bourbon, and other aged spirits will take longer, and "the good stuff" will always have value. Beer and wine are relatively easy to make, but if you want to keep a few bottles of "Pre-Collapse" vintage, do it. Don't assume it is a trade item-there may be celebrations or milestones that call for the best. Do not underestimate the need for celebration after TEOTWAKI. We are still human, after all. Speaking of which, do not forget vanity. Did anyone see "Frontier House" on PBS a few years ago, when the women finally resorted to making their own cosmetics? After basic survival needs have been met, folks are going to thinking about attractiveness again-especially when it comes to courting. In addition to all that practical soap you pack away, add some "pretty" stuff too. Something else that will store forever is perfume and cologne. Those samples with 1 or 2 milliliters are good, as well as larger bottles. Deodorant won't last long, but a lot of health food stores have those "natural crystals" that purport to do the same thing; those should last forever, as long as they're kept dry. All of the above assumes a long-term breakdown of transportation/distribution (TEOTWAKI); for a short-time SHTF, booze and cigs are still your best bet.
Good info UL:yippee: Learning how to make the things that I'm used to purchasing is part of preparing for the worst but it's also part of creating a simple lifestyle. Wine making was a big thing with my grandparents and my brother and I have taken an interest in it too. Micro-brew's are the next fun experimentbut not till we get a few blends down pat. Making cosmetics, soaps,lotions, oils and other toiletries was a 'fad' for me years ago but now will be something I will most likely get back into out of neccesity. Your point about the need for celebration reminded me of something my grandfather had said. He basically told me to learn to live happily without money and especially to learn to have fun without money. :coolbeer:

DrillAndFill | 10-18-2006 03:24 AM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Tobacco seems a better bet than alcohol, because it's more addictive, but I don't understand the first thing about tobacco storage, so I'd go with alcohol. Razors, soap, matches, chlorine tablets, and socks come to mind, simply because they are the consumables I most appreciate on a camping trip. You might not get rich trading them, but you will always need them, so at least you'll be spared the hassle of barter. Plenty of candles. Medical supplies: syringes, bandages, sterile equipment of all kinds. Skill which almost nobody has: cobbling and sewing. Amundsen's South Pole crew had a wide range of skills of this sort, and manufactured or altered items such as tents and shoes during the polar winter. Rudimentary medical training. If the energy situation scales downward, automobile repair, and then bicycle repair, will be growth careers. I wonder how well a huge cache of bicycle innertubes and patch kits would keep. As with alcohol, so with pornography: demand is robust even in the leanest times. If the grid is unreliable, the means of viewing electronic porn will diminish, and the glossy paper stuff could become quite valuable. There's probably a better means of taking advantage of this surefire market, but I don't yet see it.

Infidel | 10-18-2006 03:30 AM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? I do not know how well cocaine stores, but I bet dollars to doughnuts you can not beat compactness of the storage medium even with platinum. (edit: make sure to preserve some baking soda too.)

Anty Ep | 10-18-2006 10:01 AM
skip the porn Quote:
Originally Posted by DrillAndFill (Post 390298) ...As with alcohol, so with pornography: demand is robust even in the leanest times. If the grid is unreliable, the means of viewing electronic porn will diminish, and the glossy paper stuff could become quite valuable. There's probably a better means of taking advantage of this surefire market, but I don't yet see it.
I recognize that this is a legitimate idea for discussion, but, I have a feeling that if "the collapse" happens anything on the order of what some survivalists anticipate, and then once the coast is clear of the "ACLU" types and their enforcers, then local bands of militia will clean up their neighborhoods and any pimps involved in the stripping/porn/prostitution game will eat hot lead. I for one wouldnt miss them. I'm no Puritan mind you. I can appreciate erotic literature and art and am not entirely opposed even to the idea of legalized prostitution. But the way things are today, if you've ever had the sad opportunity to see behind the scenes of these kinds of operations, they are disgusting and exploitative criminal enterprises, which have been allowed to run wild since "the usual suspects" captured the entire federal government, Supreme Court and Congress and Presidency, back in the 1960s.

buff01 | 10-18-2006 10:35 AM
Re: skip the porn It's always a good time to stock up on the vices!

thorgrim | 10-18-2006 10:39 AM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Quote:
Originally Posted by buff01 It's always a good time to stock up on the vices!
Thats pretty much what I was thinking. Stock up and feel justified in doing so. Especially the porn, right Drill? I can tell you what if TEOTWAKI, I'll be hittin the sauce. LOL

R MacDonald | 10-18-2006 10:46 AM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Disposable baby diapers, tooth brushes, tampons/pads, and other healthcare stuff are also good barter items.

buff01 | 10-18-2006 12:04 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Quote:
Originally Posted by thorgrim (Post 390537) Thats pretty much what I was thinking. Stock up and feel justified in doing so. Especially the porn, right Drill? I can tell you what if TEOTWAKI, I'll be hittin the sauce. LOL
haha... in teotwaki, a bottle might be your only friend!

sirlabatt | 10-18-2006 12:44 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? If you store cigars in a properly maintained humidor you can store them for a very long time. I have been collecting from many years, a good family Friend gave me some he has been collecting for many years, I think they where over 15 years old. I smoked one last new years and it was just fine. To sore tobacco, you should not keep it in a cold low humidity environment like a refrigerator. This will destroy them. Instead store them in a warm, damp, dark place. This will keep them a bit longer, depending on where you live. I like in Canada and if I keep them out in the open for more than a couple of days they dry out. Just my two cents

silverJeep | 10-18-2006 12:47 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? This was brought up here before and some mentioned a point that has yet to mentioned again. So I'll do it. Alcohol, bad barter item. A drunk that's been without that knows you are the only game in town is far more dangerous than any street thug. You would be a target for mugging, murder and break in's. Obviously you could be targeted for anything you're bartering, but I doubt you'd be in as much danger as if you had toilet paper or soap or toothbrushs.

RiverRat | 10-18-2006 02:39 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? :cool2: There is an old novel by the name of Alas Babylon by Pat Frank that everyone here should read. It's an old post atomic war scenario that is set in Florida. Quite a good read...even if it's a bit dated. The one item that was important was salt !!! They could get just about everything they needed but salt. I had never thought about it much until I realized I have no idea where the location of any salt mines are. Of course if you live near the coast you could use salt water and dehydrate it for the sea salt. But,if you live a couple hundred miles inland...you might be in trouble. Salt is not a common part of raw foods or self butchered meat. You cannot live without it for very long. The brain receptors use sodium electrolyte compounds to fire low level current across the synapses for your brain/body to function. High salt intake makes you more alert.You think and react faster to stimuli.I had an instructor in college that recommended all his students triple their salt intake the day before exams. Hey....it worked for me. Just passing this along... :D :D

Unclad Lad | 10-18-2006 05:11 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Someone mentioned printed pornography. If you've already, er, laid in stores, then you might as well hold on to it. Given how much of it is moldering away in attics across North America, I'm not sure how much value it will retain. But other printed materials.... Again for SHTF, even for a large region, knowledge and educational resources won't be an issue, but in TEOTWAKI a lot of learning will be lost as people die; even in the "least worst" of circumstances, there will be gaps in necessary trades and skills. I go to a lot of yard and garage sales; I'm always amazed at what I find. A lot of folks here have EMS skills, but if you were in need of an appendectomy, what are your choices, or chances? I have books on surgical procedures, including illustrations. Having a paramedic or a veterinarian or a dentist operate on me wouldn't be my first choice, but I would take that before a horribly slow painful death from infection, and having the "how-to" book in front of them will improve my chances. Think of how valuable that book is to a General Practitioner with no surgical skills, working in tandem with a Veterinarian who has operated on countless dogs, cats, and livestock. And those texts will be priceless for training the next generation, who will have no med school to go to. Maybe the surgical books, or dental, etc, will even be my admission into a small community! I have duplicates of others, like food preservation, engine repair, dental hygiene, nursing (as in "pre-antibiotic" in-home long term recuperation), cabin building, pharmacology, wildfire fighting, you name it. It isn't just about trading goods, it's also about being valuable to your community. I'd be even more valuable with the actual skills, but I can only learn so much. Another printed material good for trading: Sheet music, for the town organist/music teacher to entertain and teach with. And since the ability to entertain others and self will be valuable, how about setting aside a few (dozen?) harmonicas? So many possibilities...

Anty Ep | 10-18-2006 05:18 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? lets' recall what the recently passed Col Jeff Cooper said you can never have stored too much of: good wine, books, and ammunition.

Farmgal | 10-28-2006 09:03 AM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Vodka would be a valuable item because it is used to make medicinal herbal tinctures. You could trade it to an herbalist for some herbal tinctures for yourself. If you take any supplements that come in brown glass bottles with either a cap or dropper, save them when empty. You can use them to make your own herbal medicines or trade them to someone who does.

AMforPM | 10-28-2006 08:19 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Quote:
Razors, soap, matches, chlorine tablets, and socks come to mind
Socks! This thread found something I have not yet stocked up that is a sure winner. They wear out or vanish so reliably. I put away some Jack Daniels for just the sort of barter mentioned, but I think I will add everclear for the tincture additional angle. I have a small store of my favorite bourbon too, IW Harper, no longer sold in the US but bought out and the total production shipped to Japan, but that is not for trade. It is for my celebrations. Luckily, I drink seldom, so my few bottles will last a while. It says where the US is going (banana republic) when a fine old distillery is now Japanese owned and sold for $50 a shot in Tokyo hotels, but sold at no price here. So smooth too. But for trade Wild Turkey would work fine, and for tinctures, Everclear.

RickW | 10-28-2006 08:50 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? How is my box wine going to hold up?:withstupi

Argentsum | 10-28-2006 09:08 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? May I respectfully suggest laying in a small stock of playing cards? Movies, TV, magazines, newspapers, and perhaps even radio may not be available. Playing cards are small, light and most everyone knows a game or two with cards. As far as alcohol. Collect what you want but I believe brand names will be important. It will serve as a connection to happier times if you can offer a bottle of Jack instead of a jug of bootleg.

softserve320 | 10-28-2006 09:36 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Quote:
Originally Posted by RickW (Post 399994) How is my box wine going to hold up?:withstupi
About 9 months past the date on the box if unopened, 4 weeks max if opened. :coolbeer:

didgmike | 10-28-2006 10:29 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Quote:
As far as alcohol. Collect what you want but I believe brand names will be important. It will serve as a connection to happier times if you can offer a bottle of Jack instead of a jug of bootleg.
I'm split on this opinion. On one hand, I think quantity will win out hands down in a survival situation. I like pure grain alcohol for that reason. I've had the same open bottle of everclear for about a year. just a capful of alcohol is enough to make an average mixer. I've had about 20ish mixed drinks from that bottle and i've barely put a dent in it. taste is more than acceptable when you use proper ratios.(it did take me some serious covincing to try it, due to the negative, vile connotations it received during high school/college days) flipside: I've been offered 100$ for a handle of jack daniels by some rough bikers at a huge music festival. They were pretty darn adamant about their jack. we all have branding preferences, though, and trying to accommodate a niche market in rough times might not be wise. I think in shtfs the percentage of people looking for the analgesic properties of booze will dwarf those seeking nostalgic properties. The nostalgia would be nothing more than an added bonus. While i'm on a booze kick, anybody know of current legalities involving distilling your own booze? Is it still a hush hush activity? I'd like to learn how to fish, so the saying goes.:rock:

Argentsum | 10-28-2006 10:58 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Quote:
Originally Posted by didgmike (Post 400059) While i'm on a booze kick, anybody know of current legalities involving distilling your own booze? Is it still a hush hush activity? I'd like to learn how to fish, so the saying goes.:rock:
No idea. I would imagine distilling alcohol for your own personal use would be okay. You may wish to contact the ATF and ask them. State laws, of course, vary quite a bit.

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Unclad Lad | 10-29-2006 01:09 AM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? All ethanol production in the US is regulated by the BATF. There are many good "still" books out there, but the emphasis is on fuel-making, not drinking. A small-timer can get a permit, but you must show that the final product is denatured (many hobbyists add a small amount of kerosene). Search for Michael Brown on Amazon. Quote:
but I believe brand names will be important. It will serve as a connection to happier times if you can offer a bottle of Jack instead of a jug of bootleg
Quantity will have value. So will quality, and rarity. In a world without liquor stores, an unopened bottle of Jack Daniels will be as valuable as a brandy from Thomas Jefferson's cellar is today*. Deals will be cemented over tumblers of the "old stuff". You get the idea. Prestige and perceived importance will never die out. *Slightly exaggerated.

Alpine5654 | 10-29-2006 10:08 AM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? http://www.moonshine-still.com/ http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id2.html http://www.homedistiller.org/ http://search.ebay.com/reflux-still_...sPageNameZWLRS The BATF requires every still be permited. If you get cought without a permit, you are in deep doo doo.

Alpine5654 | 10-29-2006 10:11 AM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Just remember, distilling is boiling gas, Darwin theory might apply. Another idea if you live in colder climates... Applejack. Easy to make, low cost, no electricity needed. The founding fathers made it.

mtnman | 10-29-2006 09:29 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Yes, Uncle Sam Regulates ALL distillation. It's about controling the fuel, has nothing to do with the high!

buff01 | 10-30-2006 12:13 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Good links guys, thanks. I think I have a new project on the horizon!

buff01 | 11-02-2006 11:14 AM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? If anyone was still wondering where to get smokes for long term storage, here is the perfect place for you: www.cigmall.net I got three cartons for around $55 shipped... quite cheap for name brand stuff. They are from eastern europe, hence the price. The taste is good despite the low price. The cartons are already sealed in cellophane, although I'm sure vacuum packing them wouldn't hurt. No, I don't work there :)

hoarder | 11-02-2006 11:21 AM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? WTSHTF, TPTB will make sure we have certain things available: Television Radio Booze Drugs These things will help guarantee the transition to world government will go smoothly. Personally, I prefer to hoard things that ensure the transition to world government does not go smoothly.

jchattin | 11-02-2006 12:06 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? In response to: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >WTSHTF, TPTB will make sure we have certain things available: > >Television ..... Now THIS should be interesting when they turn off analog TV! Does it mean that they will be forced to give us convertor boxes for our old tvs so we can still be force-fed programming, or will they FORCE us to buy new tvs? Can't have the masses waking up from their slumber and looking around and thinking for themselves, can we? I for one am not interested, and will just watch my dvds.

hoarder | 11-02-2006 12:35 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Quote:
Originally Posted by jchattin (Post 404626) Now THIS should be interesting when they turn off analog TV!
Why would they turn off any kind of TV? That's how they control the dumb masses.

Green Mountain Boy | 11-02-2006 12:42 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 404655) Why would they turn off any kind of TV? That's how they control the dumb masses.
It's all being shifted to digital. In 2009...no more analog antenna reception. http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6034105.html

gunner | 11-02-2006 12:58 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? All that will matter is the news and those emergency broadcasting alerts - I'll stick to radio.

hoarder | 11-02-2006 01:04 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Quote:
Originally Posted by gunner (Post 404682) All that will matter is the news and those emergency broadcasting alerts - I'll stick to radio.
I'll stick to the internet, screw the monolithic mass media.

gunner | 11-02-2006 03:57 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 404697) I'll stick to the internet, screw the monolithic mass media.
By that time the internet will be well regulated (internet-2?) and shortwave...may or may not be alive.

Anty Ep | 11-02-2006 04:07 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Quote:
Originally Posted by gunner (Post 404869) By that time the internet will be well regulated (internet-2?) and shortwave...may or may not be alive.
you guys are not getting it. the old paradigm of government thought control was to have censors that stopped publication. Soviet style. The new paradigm is to let people say whatever they want. some truths that would have been censored, now are merely ignored and never catch on with any significant popularity. much more efficient way of dealing with most "bad thoughts." now if they start to get popular, then, the PENALIZERS go to work. Get the person sued, fired from a job, ostracized or even imprisoned on trumped up charges if possible-- that's the usual modus operandi, in no special order. also the "DISCREDITORS" go to work. Such and such truth becomes "discredited." Or a "conspiracy theory." Or "hate." Etc. This is all much more efficient than the old Soviet style bureacracy which was expensive, far too expensive, to maintain; and hindered the free flow ideas that is so important to CAPITALISM. In the new paradigm, dissenters "self identify" and "self segregate." They rise to the top of the pond, like feces, and the controllers send out there workers to skim the crap off the top. Much easier and efficient for "TPTB."

Worldmariner | 11-08-2006 10:19 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Quote:
Originally Posted by softserve320 (Post 390207) Whiskey, Scotch, Vodka AND wine all keep well for years. I respectfully disagree Anty EP, wine keeps well in obvious places like root cellars and there is no need to make it fancy or expensive. :clap2: :coolbeer:
I am thinking that in a SHTF scenario, that nice wines will score lower on the barterbility scale than say, a fifth of rocket fuel. If the world has gone down the toilet, sure, ya drink what ya can get your hands on... But I would think that a 96 KJ Cab VR will cost you more to buy then what you will get for trade, then say, as opposed to a pint of vodka. Everyone knows that high proof rocket fuel will give you more bang for your buck then an equivilant amount of beer or wine. Beer and wine = silver, high proof liqours = gold. How does my logic sound? Please do share your thoughts everyone!! :)

Worldmariner | 11-08-2006 10:25 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 404581) Personally, I prefer to hoard things that ensure the transition to world government does not go smoothly.
YUP! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

hoarder | 11-08-2006 10:26 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? "Bang for your buck" will be important in the hard times ahead. Hard liquor would fit the bill better than fancy wines. I'm putting my money where I'll get far better "BANG" for my buck....AMMO!

J.D.Rockinfeller | 11-08-2006 11:04 PM
Re: What about liquor and tobacco products for long term storage? Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 404883) you guys are not getting it. the old paradigm of government thought control was to have censors that stopped publication. Soviet style. The new paradigm is to let people say whatever they want. some truths that would have been censored, now are merely ignored and never catch on with any significant popularity. much more efficient way of dealing with most "bad thoughts." now if they start to get popular, then, the PENALIZERS go to work. Get the person sued, fired from a job, ostracized or even imprisoned on trumped up charges if possible-- that's the usual modus operandi, in no special order. also the "DISCREDITORS" go to work. Such and such truth becomes "discredited." Or a "conspiracy theory." Or "hate." Etc. This is all much more efficient than the old Soviet style bureacracy which was expensive, far too expensive, to maintain; and hindered the free flow ideas that is so important to CAPITALISM. In the new paradigm, dissenters "self identify" and "self segregate." They rise to the top of the pond, like feces, and the controllers send out there workers to skim the crap off the top. Much easier and efficient for "TPTB."
This needs an entire thread on its own...true that ,AE.

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