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- - The .410 for Self Defence (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=226972)

bsdetector | 01-23-2008 10:12 PM
The .410 for Self Defence I note a number of inquiries about the suitability of .410 bore shotguns for self-defense. Because the .410 is so much smaller than other common shotgun shells, many shooters have a tendency to dismiss it as nothing but a plaything, and the notion carries over to any other potential uses of a shotgun. However, as many readers of this website are fully aware, the .410 bore gun is no plaything but quite a useful tool for taking small game, and the same characteristics may be expected to apply in the area of self defense. SLUGS: First, let us look at the common .410 bore slug. The traditional .410 foster-style slug has a 1/5 ounce or 87.5 grain slug at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1815 feet per second (fps) and developing a muzzle energy (ME) of 640 foot pounds (ft. lbs.). More recent offerings increase the weight of the slug to 1/4 ounce at a slightly reduced MV of 1755 fps for an ME of nearly 750 ft. lbs. Cartridges with a history of self-defense use which have characteristics similar to the .410 slug's bullet diameter and muzzle energy include top loads from a 10mm auto pistol, a .357 magnum revolver, and the standard velocity ballistics of the .44-40 and .38-40 rifles. The .44-40 was introduced with the Winchester 1873 rifle and this gun, not the Colt Single Action Army, probably was the real gun that won the west. It reputedly killed more big game than any other rifle cartridge until the .30-30 finally overtook it in about the mid-50s. The cartridge also was the most popular caliber in Winchester�s Model 92, Marlin�s Model 1894 short action lever actions, Colt�s Lightning Rifle, and virtually every short action design used in the world, as well as the second most common caliber in the big Colt Single Action Army revolver. I have a friend who has been considerably disabled by a stroke and can no longer hunt his venison with a high power rifle. For the past eleven years he has used a .410 loaded with the common slug to kill more than 20 deer, all one-shot kills. BUCK SHOT: Winchester makes a .410 buckshot load in a 2 � inch shell containing three "triple-ought" or 000 buck shot. The 000 buck is .360 in diameter, weighs 71 grains, and the first pellet out of the two shells which I chronographed out of a Remington Model 870 with 25 inch barrel crossed the chronograph screens at slightly above 1250 fps with a muzzle energy of nearly 250 ft. lbs. The other pellets were no doubt going nearly as fast. That gives three pellets each with as much energy as a standard .38 special police load, and a total energy of 750 ft. lbs. That would have to be quite effective. I have not used any of the "double-ought" or 00 buck shot loads, but the specs I have seen call for five 00s in a 3 inch shell with a similar muzzle velocity. A 00 buck shot is commonly caliber .33 and also commonly caliber .34, depending on whose figures you use. To be conservative, I will use the smaller.33 ball which weighs 54 grains. At an MV of 1250, each pellet develops an ME of 187 ft. lbs. Or a total energy of 935 ft. lbs. Thus each 00 pellet has about as much energy as a .380 auto pistol cartridge. BIRD SHOT: The 2 � inch .410 carries � ounce of shot at an MV of 1200 fps. Fine shot sizes available in the short shell range from number 4 to number 9s. The three inch .410 shell carries 11/16 ounce of shot at 1135 fps and sizes range from 4s to 7 1/2s. Bird shot can be very effective, but its effectiveness, or rather the nature of its effectiveness will depend on range. At contact range, either shot charge will act more like a frangible bullet than a pattern of shot and will deliver enormously destructive wound, The 2 � ounce shells deliver 700 ft. lbs. of energy and the three inch shell 860 ft. lbs. of energy. Such forces are comparable to a using highly frangible bullets in .41 and .44 magnums respectively. As the range increases, the expanding pattern will spread out the shot until, at a few feet�s distance, the pellets will start to make individual wounds -- many, many, many individual wounds. But how severe will these smaller wounds be? The individual wounds will vary quite widely according to pellet size. Larger shot sizes will penetrate much deeper than smaller sizes, and the largest can penetrate a rib bone and still inflict a nasty would. The following penetration figures are taken from Ed. Lowry�s Shotshell Ballistics for Windows.* At ten yards, assuming no bone is struck, a #4 from the lower velocity three inch shell can penetrate an astonishing 3.4 inches of flesh. That is essentially half the depth of an average human chest from front to back. And there will be 93 such wounds in a ten inch circle. At ten yards, #6s will penetrate 2.6 inches of flesh, and 7 1/2s will penetrate 2.2 inches of flesh. Number 9s, the Skeet loads, will penetrate least. At ten yards, a #9 pellet from a 2 � inch .410 will penetrate 1.5 inches of flesh, but there will be approximately 219 such wounds in an area of less than ten inches diameter. I would expect the full thickness of a rib bone to stop a #9 pellet. (But I may be wrong.) In any event, pattern density would insure many pellets missing bones and 1.5 inches will penetrate enough to damage internal organs. But even without sufficient penetration to damage internal organs, it is a just-plain-nasty wound, and I would expect it to take all of the fight (and most of the life) out of the average nasty customer. Indeed, even the 2 inch .410 would be effective. What should be obvious to most shooters, but often is not, is that any gun, even a .22 short, is a dangerous and therefore useful weapon. When forced to counter a life-threatening assault, any gun is more effective than snide commentary from an anti-gun news announcer. - Marshall Williams Ballistic Technology http://www.4-10.freeuk.com/mwdefence.html

<SLV> | 01-23-2008 10:21 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Taurus "The Judge" .410 revolver: http://www.taurususa.com/images/imag...-410L1side.jpg

GoldWampum | 01-23-2008 10:21 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence I love the 410. It was my first gun, a single shot bolt action .410. Good gun to learn to hunt with, since it had one shot and a limited shot capacity. My early deer hunting years were 410 slug armed. My uncle had a 410/22 over and under. Great gun for hunting a variety of small game simultaneously or with a slug in the chamber, to be prepared for big or small with the same gun. Always wanted a sawed off with grip for personal protection. :D Put a slug in it and it's kinda like an oversized pirate pistol. :smokin:

GoldWampum | 01-23-2008 10:22 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 933369) Taurus "The Judge" .410 revolver: http://www.taurususa.com/images/imag...-410L1side.jpg
Now that's interesting.

didgmike | 01-23-2008 10:55 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence If i'm not mistaken, "The judge" also shoots .45 rounds as well. hell of a gun.

Atahualpa | 01-23-2008 10:56 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence That's a .410 or .45 double barrel pistol in my avatar...about as sawed off as you are going to get.

electric-amish | 01-23-2008 11:17 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence My friend just bought a Judge made out of titanium. This was a surprisingly balanced and good sized revolver. It reminded me of a Smith model 66 with a 4in barrel. Light and balanced. In a couple of months we will go on a shoot at his property in the Ozarks. This is a revolver that I will try and post a detailed review on and maybe some pictures. I am kinda stoked to shoot it based on its size and feel. My early impressions-As a anti carjack gun it would be hard to do better. Electric-Amish

<SLV> | 01-23-2008 11:18 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by didgmike (Post 933421) If i'm not mistaken, "The judge" also shoots .45 rounds as well. hell of a gun.
Yes it does... .45 LC for clarification. I find it strangely fascinating, but I have yet to convince myself that it is practical. I don't like it as a carry gun, because I don't want to hit bystanders with shot. As a car gun it seems interesting, but you wouldn't want to shoot through glass from the inside out! Maybe the best use would be a nightstand gun. PS - I've heard it is a handful... especially in the light framed version. Box-O-Truth covers it here: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

electric-amish | 01-23-2008 11:21 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 933442) . As a car gun it seems interesting, but you wouldn't want to shoot through glass from the inside out! .
HAHAHAHAHAH BE like a swarm of hornets let loose in there with ya. E-A

SilverCity | 01-23-2008 11:33 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Since FBI studies show bullets must penetrate at least 12" to be effective for self-defense...I don't think the 410 offers much. I even reconsidered the 20 gauge slug's poor penetration--based on the "Box O' Truth"--and went with 000 buckshot for the wifes "house" gun.

Rampon | 01-24-2008 12:34 AM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Yeah, I bought The Judge. Not Impressed. I agree with theboxotruth Review. Just not Practical. My review, FWIW

extremist | 01-24-2008 05:46 AM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence I've used it with .410 birdshot. It may be good for dispatching snakes, scorpions and hummingbirds, but did little against the old rotten tree stumps I needed to blast away. It's not clear what studies or polls, if any, have revealed that many judges carry it into courtrooms. In any case, relying on judges for gun advice is like following Bob Hope's recommendation for the best motor oil.

bsdetector | 01-24-2008 06:37 AM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 933458) Since FBI studies show bullets must penetrate at least 12" to be effective for self-defense...I don't think the 410 offers much.
Who do you know is 12 inches thick ? That FBI study must have been for 400 lb criminals only. Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 933458) I even reconsidered the 20 gauge slug's poor penetration--based on the "Box O' Truth"--and went with 000 buckshot for the wifes "house" gun.
000 buckshot from a cheap 410 shotgun releases (3 or 5) 9mm rounds with more energy than any 9 mil handgun can muster. I've tested 000 with a short barrel(18") H&R and the results were devastating out at fifteen yards (well within 'house-gun' range for self defense). It easily penetrates steel oil drums and rips tree trunks. The recoil is mild and very controllable compared to the 20 or 12 gages and much more maneuverable than the awkward big guns while outperforming the 357 magnum handgun for instant firepower. New England Firearm's short barreled "Defender" 410 pump matched with Winchester's 000 buckshot would be a logical choice for high penetration and firepower without buying a sub machine gun.

Victor | 01-24-2008 07:35 AM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence This is just another opinion..... .410 are a great little round to hunt with or even shoot skeet with but when I want rely on it for my life.....12ga. or .38 special/9mm. is it. Ammo can be had almost anywhere and is inexpensive compared to some of the off rounds. A gun is better than no gun but for a first time purchase, I wouldn't even consider a .410.

TLM | 01-24-2008 09:01 AM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 933458) Since FBI studies show bullets must penetrate at least 12" to be effective for self-defense...I don't think the 410 offers much. I even reconsidered the 20 gauge slug's poor penetration--based on the "Box O' Truth"--and went with 000 buckshot for the wifes "house" gun.
If it can kill a deer, it can kill a human.

SilverCity | 01-24-2008 10:07 AM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by TLM (Post 933907) If it can kill a deer, it can kill a human.
A deer is not likely to be hopped up on meth, armed with a weapon, and full of malevolent intent towards me and my family.

DogFarm | 01-24-2008 11:47 AM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence well, if you go with a 410 you might be in deepshit if this squirrel shows up on your doorstep. http://www.umt.edu/voices/Abaidoo/up...rel-711058.jpg

bsdetector | 01-24-2008 06:08 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Interesting how a simple thread can deteriate to common knowledge so quickly.

SilverCity | 01-24-2008 06:46 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by bsdetector (Post 934959) Interesting how a simple thread can deteriate to common knowledge so quickly.
Yeah, it's called reverting to the mean...

mtnman | 01-24-2008 07:09 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence OK, Whom here has shot a .410? I have, many many rounds. It will stop a man. It won't blow arms and legs off like a 12 but it will stop a man with one round.

GoldWampum | 01-24-2008 07:12 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence That 410 pistol is nice, but I've always wanted the sawed off, handle grip stock for close in protection. Say what you want, a 410 with shot or slug is a good all around close action gun. Now, if you are a sniper, I would not recommend it. I just like that pirate feel. :D The judge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R97mlNtj0xA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R97mlNtj0xA&feature=related

GoldWampum | 01-24-2008 07:15 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 935064) OK, Whom here has shot a .410? I have, many many rounds. It will stop a man. It won't blow arms and legs off like a 12 but it will stop a man with one round.
I agree. I have owned one and have shot them many, many times.

SilverCity | 01-24-2008 07:18 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldWampum (Post 935070) I agree. I have owned one and have shot them many, many times.
You've shot many, many men?...or you've shot one man many, many times? Sorry...couldn't resist.

GoldWampum | 01-24-2008 08:02 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 935079) You've shot many, many men?...or you've shot one man many, many times? Sorry...couldn't resist.
Both. Sorry... couldn't resist. :rofl::rofl:

Dave Thomas | 01-24-2008 08:14 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldWampum (Post 935197) Both. Sorry... couldn't resist. :rofl::rofl:
What I wanna know is who goes Hummingbird hunting?! What the hell? Cockaroaches, sure, hummingbirds? WTF?

GoldWampum | 01-24-2008 08:16 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Thomas (Post 935227) What I wanna know is who goes Hummingbird hunting?! What the hell? Cockaroaches, sure, hummingbirds? WTF?
Takes a lot of hummingbirds to make a hummingbird liver pie...

mtnman | 01-24-2008 09:23 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldWampum (Post 935230) Takes a lot of hummingbirds to make a hummingbird liver pie...
Yuk! guts are for the dogs!

Bogie | 01-26-2008 03:27 AM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence I would not put much trust into a .410 while I have a Side by Side .410 & it's a fun little gun it is far from what I would use for defense. The Box Of Truth #41- Taurus Judge

Highbanker | 01-26-2008 12:47 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence ( for SLV) As a matter of fact shooting out from the interior of a car through glass (windshield, rear window, side windows) is a common special operations technique... Auto glass is designed to take pressure from the outside..it is usually curved and shaped with a bow from inside to out. Hechler & Koch offer a coure to military special operations personnel called "weapons manipulation during vehicle operations" and one of the main points is the ADVANTAGE to engaging targets through auto glass. Just have the earplugs in. .410 is just fine at close range....slugs are great......would'nt use any load smaller than 0 buck.

<SLV> | 01-26-2008 01:23 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence ( for SLV) Quote:
Originally Posted by Highbanker (Post 937753) As a matter of fact shooting out from the interior of a car through glass (windshield, rear window, side windows) is a common special operations technique... Auto glass is designed to take pressure from the outside..it is usually curved and shaped with a bow from inside to out. Hechler & Koch offer a coure to military special operations personnel called "weapons manipulation during vehicle operations" and one of the main points is the ADVANTAGE to engaging targets through auto glass. Just have the earplugs in. .410 is just fine at close range....slugs are great......would'nt use any load smaller than 0 buck.
I figured the taurus w/birdshot would ricochet inside a vehicle. No need to use slugs in the Taurus... just load it with .45 LC.

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- - The .410 for Self Defence (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=226972)

GoldWampum | 01-26-2008 02:31 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 935369) Yuk! guts are for the dogs!
Might I then suggest chicken lips?

mtnman | 01-26-2008 02:31 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence ( for SLV) Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 937801) I figured the taurus w/birdshot would ricochet inside a vehicle. No need to use slugs in the Taurus... just load it with .45 LC.
If the bad guy is outside your car and you shoot them, you�re going to jail. Besides a 3000lb+ car is a GREAT club! That kind of accident washes off with a hose.

<SLV> | 01-26-2008 06:26 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence ( for SLV) Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 937888) If the bad guy is outside your car and you shoot them, you’re going to jail. Besides a 3000lb+ car is a GREAT club! That kind of accident washes off with a hose.
My firearms instructor in my CCW class informed us that we should be prepared to shoot someone through the windshield of our car. The law in Colorado says that you can use deadly force if there is an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury against us or ANYONE around us.

mtnman | 01-26-2008 06:49 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence ( for SLV) Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 938171) My firearms instructor in my CCW class informed us that we should be prepared to shoot someone through the windshield of our car. The law in Colorado says that you can use deadly force if there is an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury against us or ANYONE around us.
Why would you shoot through the windshield? First gear and hit the gas, like I said before, that kind of accident washes off with a hose.

bsdetector | 01-26-2008 07:03 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogie (Post 937459) I would not put much trust into a .410 while I have a Side by Side .410 & it's a fun little gun it is far from what I would use for defense. The Box Of Truth #41- Taurus Judge
Big difference is when that 000 accelerates down an 18 inch barrel. 410 was never meant to be shot from a handgun. I noticed the "Box of Truth" doesn't test the 410 slug or 000 ammo in a shotgun ... 12 inches of penetration was a number grabbed from the thin air. You don't want the rounds to pass thru the target but rather let the target absorb the shock, that's why hollow point ammo is preferred in hunting. Even Hydrashock ammo is designed to stop in the target, not pass thru it. I load my own 000 in Magtech brass 410 shells, I use swaged .375 pure lead round balls being pushed by 30 grains of smokeless .... its quite devastating, the round balls literally explode on impact.

KASHMAN02 | 01-26-2008 07:23 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 933369) Taurus "The Judge" .410 revolver: http://www.taurususa.com/images/imag...-410L1side.jpg
Been eyeing up the Judge for a buy, also shoots a 45 Long.

GoldWampum | 01-26-2008 07:44 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by bsdetector (Post 938207) Big difference is when that 000 accelerates down an 18 inch barrel. 410 was never meant to be shot from a handgun. I noticed the "Box of Truth" doesn't test the 410 slug or 000 ammo in a shotgun ... 12 inches of penetration was a number grabbed from the thin air. You don't want the rounds to pass thru the target but rather let the target absorb the shock, that's why hollow point ammo is preferred in hunting. Even Hydrashock ammo is designed to stop in the target, not pass thru it. I load my own 000 in Magtech brass 410 shells, I use swaged .375 pure lead round balls being pushed by 30 grains of smokeless .... its quite devastating, the round balls literally explode on impact.
This is why I like the sawed off model with handle grip. Lightweight and maneuverable in close quarters but still packs punch with the slug or 000.:smokin: All that and looks like a pirate gun. :D

GoldWampum | 01-26-2008 08:18 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijah (Post 938260) Arrg! Pirate gun?
:hahaha::fight: Interesting Saiga 410 series: http://club.guns.ru/images/saiga410k01.jpg I like this stock. http://club.guns.ru/images/saiga410-1.jpg With this barrel. Although this stock does fold. http://club.guns.ru/images/saiga410k.jpg http://club.guns.ru/images/saiga410s.jpg http://club.guns.ru/images/saiga410mag.jpg http://club.guns.ru/eng/saiga410.html

money matters | 01-27-2008 06:09 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Not really much versatility from a .410. You can buy a .44mag revolver and a few pkgs of CCI snakeshot and have almost the same thing. Or get a .357 and run the smaller shot ctgs. Not like a .410 is a powerhouse to begin with. Actually, you can even get shot ctgs in .45acp. I have a box of 20, made by Remington. Never even tested them out. Just a novelty. A hideout pistol should be capable of being hidden, carried in a pocket. A J frame S&W is great for this, the .357 Ti frame has to be real convenient. Not like you want to have to fire it, but powerful and available when you need it. A .410 revolver is silly to me. Like the .45-70 revolvers, or the .50s. A .45Colt has a lot going for it. A 4" S&W 625 would be great. Yet, a Ruger Alaskan in .454 Casull can do all that and lot's more! Think Versatility. A .410 isn't very effective past 10 yds. Just maybe you'll need to have a prospect of hitting at 75-100yds? This rules out the .410. A .410 takes about the same powder charge as a .454 Casull, but generates much less in versatile capacity. Close range, gosh; actually the diameter of the shot charge before it opens up is about .40 diamter versus .452. Once the charge opens up, at 10-12 yds it begins to loose kinetic energy very swiftly. Try shooting trap or skeet with a .410; better yet, try killing birds. It is an expert's shotgun, or a toy. For self-defense, would be better than a sharp stick or a knife, but nothing comparable to a full-power handgun. Lotsa crap out there to spend money on. Don't wind up with an "idea" when you need a solution.

GoldWampum | 01-27-2008 10:08 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 939282) Not really much versatility from a .410. You can buy a .44mag revolver and a few pkgs of CCI snakeshot and have almost the same thing. Or get a .357 and run the smaller shot ctgs. Not like a .410 is a powerhouse to begin with. Actually, you can even get shot ctgs in .45acp. I have a box of 20, made by Remington. Never even tested them out. Just a novelty. A hideout pistol should be capable of being hidden, carried in a pocket. A J frame S&W is great for this, the .357 Ti frame has to be real convenient. Not like you want to have to fire it, but powerful and available when you need it. A .410 revolver is silly to me. Like the .45-70 revolvers, or the .50s. A .45Colt has a lot going for it. A 4" S&W 625 would be great. Yet, a Ruger Alaskan in .454 Casull can do all that and lot's more! Think Versatility. A .410 isn't very effective past 10 yds. Just maybe you'll need to have a prospect of hitting at 75-100yds? This rules out the .410. A .410 takes about the same powder charge as a .454 Casull, but generates much less in versatile capacity. Close range, gosh; actually the diameter of the shot charge before it opens up is about .40 diamter versus .452. Once the charge opens up, at 10-12 yds it begins to loose kinetic energy very swiftly. Try shooting trap or skeet with a .410; better yet, try killing birds. It is an expert's shotgun, or a toy. For self-defense, would be better than a sharp stick or a knife, but nothing comparable to a full-power handgun. Lotsa crap out there to spend money on. Don't wind up with an "idea" when you need a solution.
BS. I used to knock ringnecks down and kill 'em with 4 shot. I killed a deer with a slug. You just have to be accurate. Go ahead and stand 20 yards away with me loaded with buckshot and after I shoot tell me the story again if you can. You must be using rabbit shot. OR you've never really shot one. And snake shot? Give me a break. It's good for a snake a few feet from your foot and that's about it. It'll blind him long enough to hit him over the head with a stick. It's got it's uses. A pistol? No that's a novelty item in 410 but a short barreled shot gun loaded right has it's uses and is very maneuverable. The 410 indeed has it's limitations but personally I think the short barrel model is hard to beat for close in combat. It suddenly becomes quite the solution.

GoldWampum | 01-27-2008 10:14 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by bsdetector (Post 933784) Who do you know is 12 inches thick ? That FBI study must have been for 400 lb criminals only. 000 buckshot from a cheap 410 shotgun releases (3 or 5) 9mm rounds with more energy than any 9 mil handgun can muster. I've tested 000 with a short barrel(18") H&R and the results were devastating out at fifteen yards (well within 'house-gun' range for self defense). It easily penetrates steel oil drums and rips tree trunks. The recoil is mild and very controllable compared to the 20 or 12 gages and much more maneuverable than the awkward big guns while outperforming the 357 magnum handgun for instant firepower. New England Firearm's short barreled "Defender" 410 pump matched with Winchester's 000 buckshot would be a logical choice for high penetration and firepower without buying a sub machine gun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsdetector (Post 938207) Big difference is when that 000 accelerates down an 18 inch barrel. 410 was never meant to be shot from a handgun. I noticed the "Box of Truth" doesn't test the 410 slug or 000 ammo in a shotgun ... 12 inches of penetration was a number grabbed from the thin air. You don't want the rounds to pass thru the target but rather let the target absorb the shock, that's why hollow point ammo is preferred in hunting. Even Hydrashock ammo is designed to stop in the target, not pass thru it. I load my own 000 in Magtech brass 410 shells, I use swaged .375 pure lead round balls being pushed by 30 grains of smokeless .... its quite devastating, the round balls literally explode on impact.
Now here's a guy who has actually shot one and knows how to make it work for him.

GoldWampum | 01-28-2008 12:41 AM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijah (Post 939767) Arrg! Arrg! More pirate guns. :D GoldWampum, you keep talking dirty like this, you'll have me buying another gun. Like I don't already have enough. Gun show coming up in 2 weeks, Feb. 9-10 at Columbus, Ohio - Westland Mall. Hint, hint, also usually have a few coin dealers.:wink:
Gotta getcha another one Elijah. It don't make no sense not to.:D If I was still in Mt. Vernon, I'd meet you there, but unfortunately, in this case, I'm on the West Coast.

Dave Thomas | 01-29-2008 10:44 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldWampum (Post 935230) Takes a lot of hummingbirds to make a hummingbird liver pie...
From what I've heard, there was a delicacy once called hummingbird tongues. It would take over 1000 hummingbirds to make 1 oz of hummingbird tongues. What a take home. Caviar dealers beware.

money matters | 01-30-2008 01:26 AM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence I own a Contender with a 45/410 barrel, 10" length. Have the choke and whole ball of wax. Also have been shooting full-length .410s since the early 60's. But as opposed to a 20ga or even 28ga, they are a novelty. A 2.5" s&w model 19 will fit in the back pocket of your blue jeans. Snake shot (#9) is not that much different from 7-1/2. No, it is not buckshot, but since the #4 buck is actually a .36cal round bullet, and the .410 is only .05" larger; just how many #4 buckshot do you figure fit in a .410 hull? I'll tell you how many fit in a 12ga, something like 30. Maybe the .410 launches 4 or 5? Not a big deal unless you are up close. How much does a .410 slug weigh? How much velocity? The .410 has nothing over a magnum pistol, unless you are incompetent with the pistol. Even so, the 20ga is way superior, and the ammunition and the shotgun will be cheaper. I bought the .45/410 barrel for grins. If you were going to take a deer, would you select the .45colt with a 250gr or 345gr bullet or a .410? Beat your damn chest all you want. A .410 is a novelty item. I would love to own a Win model 43 pump, but why? I got no use for it. A 20ga is a real performing shotgun. I owned a model 12 20ga I wish I'd never sold. Could break 25 birds easy at a round of trap, a few less at skeet. A shotgun is an instinctive, throw to your cheek, track your quary and bang when the sights are swinging just right. A .410 would be fun for squirrels, but our squirrels are about the size of starlings. I can kill grouse with a pellet gun. Anybody relying on a .410 for any kind of "protection", if they could choose other weapons, is either (A) too physically handicapped to use a real weapon, (B) unable to shoot effectively, or (C) a fool. I've killed a few copperheads with short barreled .38 CCI shotshells. Pretty nice when you're carrying a toddler in a backpack seat out in the canyon. I think a short barreled magnum with mild loaded wadcutter bullets has lots going for it. Easy to shoot accurately, easy to conceal, easy to upgrade to proven defense loads like the 125gr jhp or 158jfp. If you're going after deer, take a real weapon. If you would defend your life, rely on a real weapon you can immediately access and bring to bear without delay. A 3 shot .410 (did you remove the plug and render your gun illegal to the game warden's eye?), is nothing compared to an 8 shot .45acp with spare magazines ready to go. That .45auto is likely real accurate to 50 or 75yds and is definitely very fast to use in close. A .410 beats a sharp stick, but not by a whole lot.

Squirrel Bait | 01-30-2008 01:47 AM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence #4 buckshot.......24 Cal #1 buckshot........30 Cal 00 buckshot.........33 Cal 000.....................36 Cal My favorite 12 ga load is #1 Buck which is 15 balls in 2 3/4 shells 00 buck has 9 balls I think someone else posted that a .410 with 000 buck will hold 3. Personally I would rather have the 12 ga. But the .410 can still do some damage. SB

jrog100 | 01-30-2008 09:31 AM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by electric-amish (Post 933441) My friend just bought a Judge made out of titanium. This was a surprisingly balanced and good sized revolver. It reminded me of a Smith model 66 with a 4in barrel. Light and balanced. In a couple of months we will go on a shoot at his property in the Ozarks. This is a revolver that I will try and post a detailed review on and maybe some pictures. I am kinda stoked to shoot it based on its size and feel. My early impressions-As a anti carjack gun it would be hard to do better. Electric-Amish
Yeah but the Judge is made by Tarus - Brazil. The maker of substandard firearms. I've never heard anything good about Tarus other than their retail prices.

bsdetector | 01-30-2008 08:10 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 943196) I own a Contender with a 45/410 barrel, 10" length. Have the choke and whole ball of wax. Also have been shooting full-length .410s since the early 60's. But as opposed to a 20ga or even 28ga, they are a novelty. A 2.5" s&w model 19 will fit in the back pocket of your blue jeans. Snake shot (#9) is not that much different from 7-1/2. No, it is not buckshot, but since the #4 buck is actually a .36cal round bullet, and the .410 is only .05" larger; just how many #4 buckshot do you figure fit in a .410 hull? I'll tell you how many fit in a 12ga, something like 30. Maybe the .410 launches 4 or 5? Not a big deal unless you are up close. How much does a .410 slug weigh? How much velocity? The .410 has nothing over a magnum pistol, unless you are incompetent with the pistol. Even so, the 20ga is way superior, and the ammunition and the shotgun will be cheaper. I bought the .45/410 barrel for grins. If you were going to take a deer, would you select the .45colt with a 250gr or 345gr bullet or a .410? Beat your damn chest all you want. A .410 is a novelty item. I would love to own a Win model 43 pump, but why? I got no use for it. A 20ga is a real performing shotgun. I owned a model 12 20ga I wish I'd never sold. Could break 25 birds easy at a round of trap, a few less at skeet. A shotgun is an instinctive, throw to your cheek, track your quary and bang when the sights are swinging just right. A .410 would be fun for squirrels, but our squirrels are about the size of starlings. I can kill grouse with a pellet gun. Anybody relying on a .410 for any kind of "protection", if they could choose other weapons, is either (A) too physically handicapped to use a real weapon, (B) unable to shoot effectively, or (C) a fool. I've killed a few copperheads with short barreled .38 CCI shotshells. Pretty nice when you're carrying a toddler in a backpack seat out in the canyon. I think a short barreled magnum with mild loaded wadcutter bullets has lots going for it. Easy to shoot accurately, easy to conceal, easy to upgrade to proven defense loads like the 125gr jhp or 158jfp. If you're going after deer, take a real weapon. If you would defend your life, rely on a real weapon you can immediately access and bring to bear without delay. A 3 shot .410 (did you remove the plug and render your gun illegal to the game warden's eye?), is nothing compared to an 8 shot .45acp with spare magazines ready to go. That .45auto is likely real accurate to 50 or 75yds and is definitely very fast to use in close. A .410 beats a sharp stick, but not by a whole lot.
From your experience with another short barrel 410 toy try moving up to a nice double or pump with at least an 18 inch barrel, then try a ballistics test with some 000 buckshot. At 1200 fps those 36 call balls have more energy than a 9 mill pocket toy firing three rounds at the same time. An auto loading pistol requires the trigger to be pulled three to five times to the 410's single pull. A 410 double barrel can send 6 or 10 rounds screaming at the target in one quick shot, try that with your pocket rockets. If you want to jump the subject and howl about a 12 gage, Uzi or Bazooka go for it. That fact remains, I would not hesitate to confront any drug crazed joker with a full 410 shotgun with buckshot.

money matters | 01-31-2008 03:57 AM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Guy, The .410 is not launching but five, (maybe only four) #4 buck pellets. The shot is almost the same size as the barrel diameter. How many .36 caliber round balls can you stack in a 2" long line.? I count 5. Maybe only 4 in 1.75", gotta leave room for crimping and a wad. Some people are really sold on shotguns. Up close, maybe they are advantageous. Yet, try shooting one around a corner or doorway, try working the pump mechanism if your other hand is out of commission. Takes a lot of room to swing the shotgun and acquire the target. Same with a rifle, but the rifle is just getting started at 25yds whereas the shotgun is almost peaking. Set two gallon jugs of water 30yds away, up on a fence post or platform. Shoot one with a shotgun, shoot the other with a high-powered rifle. See firsthand the lesson of hydrostatic shock. A .270Win will cause that jug to erupt and the plastic to flatten and stay flat. The shotgun might not even hit the jug with any pellets. Maybe you better pattern that shotgun and see on a 5'x5' sheet of paper where your buckshot is hitting at 30 yds? I have never seen 4 boxes of .410 field loads for $20. Used to be $12 for 20/12 ga for 100 shells in #8 or #6 field loads. .410 costs a lot for what it does. I don't own a 9mm anymore. Bought a Browning hi-power in 1971 for $104.95 made in Belgium, came in the Browning black zipper case. A friggin toy! I wised up and got rid of the 9mm and got a Gold Cup in .45acp. Damn accurate, a shooting machine. You want to rationalize what a .410 can do? No problem. I have 20ga and 12ga MEC loaders. I figure, who needs a .410 if you own a real shotgun, and also have a pellet rifle? Want a shotgun for self-defense? Pay the NFA tax stamp cost and get a sawed off pump 20ga. Ithaca used to make one, had a pistol grip and a 12" or maybe 10" barrel. NFA weapon. 20ga easy to control, for the cop who wants to blow bad guys away up close and personally, I guess. Don't have any use for one myself. If you are going to go deaf while defending your home, may as well have some firepower. An AR-15 will do the job right. Or get you an AK, unless you live in a damn big mansion and need accuracy to group your shots across your living room? A .410 remains about the dumbest choice anyone can make for self-defense, unless you plan a Masada defense. I am sure you can kill yourself with one very handily. Of course, that is what you are doing by selecting one and deluding yourself and family members that you have something for "self-defense". God bless you and yours, and good luck. You need all you can get.

bsdetector | 01-31-2008 06:27 AM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Dude, I can understand your ignorance about the 410 loads, but this thread is about uncommon knowledge, the 410 is launching three or five rounds of lead the size of 9 mills, not pellets, its not a pellet gun, its a shotgun. Like I said, you can jump the thread with comparisons to the 270, 12 gage or Patriot missile battery but, that's not what this thread is about. It's about the 410 shotgun, remember ? Now, before I lower myself to address your insulting comments .... I'll just pass.

mtnman | 01-31-2008 09:36 AM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by bsdetector (Post 945282) Dude, I can understand your ignorance about the 410 loads, but this thread is about uncommon knowledge, the 410 is launching three or five rounds of lead the size of 9 mills, not pellets, its not a pellet gun, its a shotgun. Like I said, you can jump the thread with comparisons to the 270, 12 gage or Patriot missile battery but, that's not what this thread is about. It's about the 410 shotgun, remember ? Now, before I lower myself to address your insulting comments .... I'll just pass.
Just ignore it, MM see�s himself as the know-all God of guns. I see him as just another keyboard commando with delusions of grander.

money matters | 01-31-2008 01:57 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Mtnman can't spell g-r-a-n-d-e-u-r, but it makes him all the grander! How ya doin my old buddy? Still keeping up with your old crew from the Oakland Chapter of Hell's Angels? What a hoot. LTR/RTL. No trash like scooter-trash, eh? My initial post stated that the .410 was an "experts gun". But, all the mental midgets rally around and celebrate their naivete. Choose a .410 for whatever reason. Damn, you might even get one with a rifled-barrel and have almost the equal of a blackpowder rifle. Got that double barrel thing going for you BS-detected? Oops, watch out for that Tiffany original lamp! Shit, don't bump your corinthian leather couch while you are a' swinging your "defensive weapon". Guess you've never figured out that a tiny .410 tube can't hold but 4 or 5 pellets of almost the same diameter. It's the 12ga that launches 30 pieces of #4 buck, but even so, not terribly effectively. Making do when all you have for defense will be a .410 is one thing. Planning to use one for defense, when you could choose another weapon, is just stupidity. But, you've got the Stupid Brigade encouraging you on this one, and we all know having buddies on the internet is way more important than clear analysis and solution. Maybe you think the bad guys don't wear vests? Or maybe you figure they will just knock at your door, give you time to be in position and you'll slaughter them with both barrels of old Betsy? Kind of figure it will be like grapeshot clearing the decks, huh? I would encourage you to go out and pattern your shotgun with the ammunition you would use and see where your gun places its formidable destructive swath at 10 feet, 10yds and 25yds. Draw a 12" diameter circle on your paper and see where your pellets go. If 2 of your 5 #4buckshot go wide of that circle your devastation factor is cut in half. Shoot that water-filled milk jug from 30 feet and another at 30yds. Read up on why shotguns are a very special purpose defensive weapon and the experts only endorse the 12 & 20gauges. Maybe take one of your shotshells apart and see what you are relying on. Try moving around in your home, with lights out and bringing your gun to bear from different hiding places. Can you get there stealthily, while carrying a 45" long dbl barreled shotgun, with a few spare rounds in your other hand and bring it to bear without making noise? Where ya gonna put the extra shells while you're shooting? You still have time to rethink your situation and select something more easily maneuvered (spell that one mtnman!), and more powerful and versatile in delivery. If you have the choice of venue, maybe you can survive an in-home confrontation with an intruder using a .410. MAYBE, (that's a big maybe, dude, when your life and those of your family members are at stake), hinging on your limited analytical skills and your projection of how the occasion will go. Simply put, about the time you slap your forehead and realize "I could've had a V-8!", you will be dead on the floor and next on the list is the remainder of your family. But it is your life, your family. I'm only trying to get you to rethink your over confident perspective on what you seem to think is a real shotgun.

money matters | 01-31-2008 02:30 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence My apologies for not seeing your remark, BS-Detected, about loading your own full brass case with a .375 cast bullet. Yet, what solution are you really hunting here? Will there be a prize for "man defending his homestead with least likely weapon"? Are you under some constraint? Consider yourself so expert you handicap yourself to make the event a fair fight? How many .410 cartridges can you fire without having to do a reload? Practice at this, do you? Able to keep your eyes on your intruder and swiftly, reliably make your weapon ready again, in a second? Do you have that rifled .410 barrel? A Hastings maybe? Got a scope rail on it? Maybe you'd have somthing with an automatic .410 w/magazine extension and tactical sight, but you favor a double barrel? How much do you pay for brass so you can make your shotgun perform almost equally with a 6" magnum 41 mag pistol? $5 a case? $250 for the rifled barrel? With 28gr of powder, I can launch a .452 diameter bullet weighing 345gr from a 7.5" barreled revolver at about 1400fps. These bullets penetrate 27" in solid cottonwood timber. Accurate with scope or open sights to 150yds. Easy to group in a 3" circle firing double action at 40 or 50yds. Oh yeah, I could load a shot capsule round if I wanted. Lots easier just to load a mild Unique powered round with a 250 or even a 200 gr bullet, almost like shooting a .38 target gun, no recoil. Versatile, powerful, accurate. Those traits are what I want working for me. I'm not handicapping myself in any way with deliberateness and purpose. Overconfidence will get a man killed. Better to have all your options open.

shades2 | 01-31-2008 09:03 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence How about one of these... USAS-12 with a 20 round 12 gauge drum mag? No real need to worry about reloading, after 20 rounds the gunfight is probably over one way or the other. http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh16-e.htm "BATF promptly classified this weapon as "having no sporting purpose", so it became "Class III destructive device" under US 1934 Gun Control Act. This greatly restricted its civilian use." :bear_w00t:

bsdetector | 02-01-2008 01:33 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 945449) Just ignore it, MM see�s himself as the know-all God of guns.
I know, a few years ago he was the God of Investment advice until he got an education at GIM. Remember his old sig line ..... "because your money matters" ? LOL

money matters | 02-01-2008 01:47 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Well, my ears were burning... BS-Detector, is you main detection device a mirror? My money and banking professor used to regularly use the phrase I chose for a handle on this board whenever he could in class. "Because your money matters..." I guess any idiot who can't appreciate that defensive weapons matter, also has no contemplative powers to comprehend how your money might matter. Or did I stumble into the side of the board that never attended college? Too bad, having some reasoning skills is a real aid to survival preparations. Guess that is why so many here think the AK is a great rifle. Now you've got them raving over the "effectiveness" of the .410! Who says stupidity and ignorance isn't blissful? Thomas Gray said, "Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise". I would advise you to ponder and ruminate on those words, but likely the only place you've ever heard "ponder" is when you were watching Pinky and The Brain, before the plot of that show went beyond your capabilities. But, you're ready for those doped up thugs with your .410. Even the Acme lab mice aren't that delusional. Edited to add: If you check my posts, dimwit (BS-Detected for those in doubt), you will see that I have NEVER posted once in any thread "giving investment advice". I have no opinion about anyones "investments" on this board, and have not offered "advice" concerning any investment, of any form, at any time. BS's confusion and misunderstanding does not simply extend to home defense weaponry, evidently.

Squirrel Bait | 02-01-2008 01:47 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by bsdetector (Post 947665) I know, a few years ago he was the God of Investment advice until he got an education at GIM. Remember his old sig line ..... "because your money matters" ? LOL
I look at it this way. We all need an example of what "not" to be like. What's sad is that every now and then he says something that makes a lot of sense, but everyone seems to blow him off because he's almost always "in someone's face making a "last comment. SB

mtnman | 02-01-2008 02:19 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 947700) Edited to add: If you check my posts, dimwit (BS-Detected for those in doubt)
Do you attack everyone you deem to be beneath you?

vida loco | 02-01-2008 02:41 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence The snakecharmer 410 is what I carry in my truck. SingleShot and stainless and carries some more ammo in the stock.

Prometheus | 02-01-2008 02:43 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Quote:
Originally Posted by bsdetector (Post 938207) 12 inches of penetration was a number grabbed from the thin air. You don't want the rounds to pass thru the target but rather let the target absorb the shock, that's why hollow point ammo is preferred in hunting. Even Hydrashock ammo is designed to stop in the target, not pass thru it.
12" of penetration is a number used in the balistics gelatin, not 12" of human flesh and bone. 12" isn't a magic number, but the hydrashoks you mention in your post get 14-18" of penetration (depending on the type of load and round heck 10mm goes even deeper) in 9, 40 and 45acp in those same tests. I wouldn't use .410 for a myriad of reasons, large ammo, limited capacity ect. ect. I have no use for a .410. I can get bird shot in 9mm and .45acp or just use bird shot in a 12ga if I really needed to. IMO Shotguns of any caliber have a very limited role in a survivalists arsenal. In a grab and go SHTF situation a shotgun wouldn't even be in my top 10 list of guns to grab... but thats another topic.

bsdetector | 02-01-2008 02:54 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence If I wanted to depart from the topic (and compare apples to oranges) I would choose my Remington 1100 with extended magazine tube, riot barrel and 00 buckshot - more firepower than a sub machine gun with a 30 round clip ... but that's another topic too.

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Gold & Silver Forum - The .410 for Self Defence

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Gold & Silver Forum (http://goldismoney.info/forums/index.php)
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- - The .410 for Self Defence (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=226972)

Ridge Runner | 02-01-2008 10:17 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence Interesting Link: http://www.endtimesreport.com/410reloading.html

damoc | 02-01-2008 10:51 PM
Re: The .410 for Self Defence thanks ridge runner that was a great link so let me get this straight Im no gun expert so try not to laugh but the cases from the 303 which is a accurate and powerfull long rang cartridge can be adapted in an emergency to 410 shot shells.I can fire 45 LC from a 410 is that right? and a 410 from a rifled 45 LC. my blackpowder 44 revolver can be adapted to shoot 45LC (even if at only lower power loads) there are pistols availabe (the judge i think)that are adapted to shoot both (i cant own one in california) so it seems to me that an ideal survival arsenal would include a 303 rifle 45 pistol and 410 bore shot gun? and a 44 blackpowder revolver:D

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