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Mujahideen | 11-09-2007 02:19 PM
SHTF: The Feudal Manor http://www.uncp.edu/home/rwb/medieval_manor.gif Quote:
The economic side of feudalism is known as the manorial system, or the manor system. This is an economic arrangement between a lord and his peasants or serfs. A lord provided each of his peasants with housing, strips of farmland, and protection from bandits. In return, peasants and serfs tended the lord's land, animals and helped maintain his estate. All peasants owed their lord a few days labor each week, as well as a certain portion of their crops. The main difference between serfs and peasants was that serfs were legally bound to the land. They could not leave without their lord's permission. A peasant, though free to come and go as he chose, rarely left the manor. There were little economic opportunities during the middle ages for poor peasants. A medieval manor would cover a few square miles. It consisted of the manor house, a church, a blacksmith, a village with about 15-30 families, fields, pastures, and woods. Each manor estate was almost completely self-sufficient. It could produce its own leather, food, cloth, and fuel. The few things that would have to be bought at the nearest market would be iron, salt, or perhaps millstone. Because of this self sufficiency, most peasants rarely traveled more twenty-five miles from their own village. Peasants lived in crowded cottages, with one or two rooms. Livestock was brought inside during the winter months, to provide extra warmth. A peasant diet was mainly vegetables, grains, cheese, soup and coarse brown bread. The bread would be baked in the manor oven, and peasants would have to pay a tax on each loaf. It was a crime to bake bread anywhere else. Peasants also had to pay a tithe to the church, equal to ten percent of their annual income. In addition, peasants could not marry without their lord's consent, and then they had to pay a tax for getting married. Peasants accepted their poor station in life, believing it to be God's will. A good motto for the Middle Ages would be "A place for everyone, and everyone in their place!" http://www.helium.com/tm/318011/econ...known-manorial
I think the only to survive in a SHTF scenario is to be self-sufficient, at least in terms of food/water. With that said, should the SHTF in the first degree, the only people with power will be the ones who own and can protect their manor.

Anty Ep | 11-09-2007 02:21 PM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor You got it. Warlords. Return of feudalism, that natural state of civilization.

Goldhedge | 11-09-2007 02:46 PM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor Quote:
Originally Posted by gasilat (Post 822165) Peasants lived in crowded cottages, with one or two rooms. Livestock was brought inside during the winter months, to provide extra warmth. :rofl:
Oh, there's no place like home for the holidays....

Professur | 11-09-2007 03:02 PM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor What's described there is more of a baronetcy.

REV127 | 11-09-2007 03:23 PM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor Crowded cottages with only one or two rooms and livestock sounds absolutely horrible, doesn't it? Until you realize it is mostly a fictional creation of revisionist history, the product of anti-heritage sentiment dominant in the university system. In real life there is nothing objectionable about a cozy longhouse shared with your closest family and friends unless you're an anti-social recluse. Since before the Iron Age there have existed seperate structures designed to house animals. Somebody who isn't a farmer might have a hard time understanding since they don't have any perspective on the issue but if you didn't have a solid stable and there was a particularly cold night or other harsh weather it isn't at all unreasonable to bring a pet cow, sheep or whatever that is well loved by the family indoors for shelter. If you have an earth floor it isn't a bid deal to throw down some straw to absorb any odors or mess and clean it out in the morning. Would you leave your dog out in a blizzard because he might pee or poop in the corner if it takes a while for the weather to break? Does any responsible keeper of animals ever leave them filthy and let them live in an unclean environment in the first place? For their next trick some socialist acadmeic will enlighten us as to how heavy plate armor was or how a knight had to be hoisted into his saddle with a crane and couldn't stand up again if he fell. A longsword weighs 20 or 30 pounds, don't you know? :laugh: I will generally agree that there is something to be said for a societal model wherein everybody has a place and way to be productive and contribute to the community. Our current two-tier model, government Vs everybody, leaves something to be desired.

Dzepxich | 11-09-2007 03:58 PM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor What if people develop a sense of compassion and empathy, and decide that it's wrong to hurt others just because it's wrong? What if we teach our children to think, and develop an ETHICAL way of enteracting with others, instead of relying on morality, & magical punishment after death?

skirnir | 11-09-2007 04:16 PM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor Man has always been as a wolf toward other men, why should we expect anything different? Civilization exists as perfume on a pig, so one should not act surprise if something stinks when the perfume runs out.

Dzepxich | 11-09-2007 04:40 PM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor Quote:
Originally Posted by Belloc (Post 822321) All my study of history proves otherwise, so best of luck there. :thumbs up What institution nearly wiped out slavery (complete ownership of persons) in Europe, until the Renaissance, when Europe returned to many of the practices, customs, and legal codes of pagan/classical Rome? What institution eliminated forced marriages in Europe? What institution came up with the just war doctrine and international rules of warfare? What institution served as a check on imperial and monarchial powers? What institution promoted charity, mercy, and service of mankind? What institution channeled the drive of the barbarian tribes toward the good?
When the populace are sheep, a shepherd is necessary. What if slavery faded away because it was no longer econimical, & came back when people could make a profit from it again? Have you ever heard of a "shotgun wedding"? Do you think they didn't occur in Europe? The native American tribes knew what a "just war" was, and had thier own rules about warfare. "International" rules are enforced after a war, by the winners. Charity, mercy, and service have existed long before the Christian religion, indeed, they are intregral to "primitive" cultures. "toward the good" is a subjective direction. One could argue that modern industrial civilization was a very bad direction to go.

money matters | 11-09-2007 09:47 PM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor Lucifer's Hammer by Niven & Pournelle is a great novel to read for discussion on this topic. I would think more of a KEEP, than a manor. The time for the manor might come, but more likely it will come in the form of some dedicated community.

Unclad Lad | 11-10-2007 01:48 AM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor Post-Fall feudalism is going to take a long time to develop, if ever, because of a self-enforced class system. Kings and nobility were born to that position, and had a God-given right to rule. Peasants were born to be peasants. And as the only way to Heaven was through the Church, which propped up the rulers by reinforcing the class system, very few contemplated rebellion, since death and damnation were the most likely outcomes. I have trouble envisioning Americans buying into that; America was the society where anybody willing to work or take risks could achieve nearly anything, and that included ruling others.

AMforPM | 11-10-2007 01:55 AM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor Though it is certainly one of the possible futures, it isn't the one I think most likely, the warlord one. Or at least not in the US. A bad enough war, civil or external, could create that future. Money falling apart does not create that situation. Where it has developed in my lifetime civil wars have been intentionally armed and fostered by external powers. (Afghanistan vs Argentina would be examples.) That is why I so often post not to get tricked into civil war. Down that road lie hellish lives, sometimes for many generations. Wage slavery was a cost cutting measure. You had no investment and if the slave was killed or injured or slowly starved, you replaced them with no purchase cost investment loss. I do expect life to become more local economically, and I consider that a positive. Less wage slavery and more owner / operators. I would prefer tax to change to entirely tariffs, use fees such as road tolls, and sales tax. No property tax on 1 homestead per family so you are not a renter forever. No death tax on homesteads either, but retained on Rothschild size fortunes because they concentrate too much power over many generations (with which they buy governments and do vast harm). 1000 times the average annual wage of your state could be set as free of death tax for each spouse and each child. That way it is not tied to fake inflation numbers to tax more people. That would allow a parent to leave their family well set for life without permitting .01% of humans to accumulate 90% of everything (which they did not earn). And corporations cannot have the same rights as natural persons. Shorter patents, shorter copyrights (20 years for corporations, till death if the item sells during more than 50 years the maker is alive, or if early passing, 50 years for natural persons and their heirs), importantly no one can patent what nature created, like plant species, or own rain, corporations can't buy elections via the free speech granted natural persons, etc. Interestingly, the manor reminds me a bit of permaculture land use layouts. Mostly self sufficient communities I do expect, but perhaps larger than the manor, and without the caste system.

Horn | 11-10-2007 02:34 AM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor Quote:
Originally Posted by Belloc (Post 822266) The Church provided legitimacy and structure to the system.
My understanding was that the system provided the church. Stealing from the "lord" was punishable by eternal damnation. Don't bake bread.

RaccoonRiverRadical | 11-10-2007 08:45 AM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor As the article highlights one of the benefits of the manorial system for the peasantry was protection from bandits. It will be much worse in our own time, thanks to multinationalism, as the bandits will be of different tribes some of which will have historic grudges adding fuel to an already bad situation.

RichG | 11-10-2007 09:58 AM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor 1 Attachment(s) .............

RichG | 11-10-2007 11:52 AM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor All joking aside .... this is the way to go. :smokin:

DogFarm | 11-10-2007 01:24 PM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor Thanks for the serf village map. DogFarm's next master planned community development will be based on such. I think 400 acres should be enough. Pre-interest list forming now and if you get me a deposit you can lock in today's spot prices. I'm actually only half kidding....

Horn | 11-10-2007 05:37 PM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor Quote:
Originally Posted by Belloc (Post 823382) Stealing from the rich (and poor) is still considered as such.
From whom? Only the rich have the ability to steal under our new and improved system. They are blessed. Atleast I'm still able to bake my own bread!

Horn | 11-10-2007 05:39 PM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor Quote:
Originally Posted by RichG (Post 823396) .............
Rich, just one small correction, SWAT comes down the road, Blackwater from the pond.

Horn | 11-10-2007 06:03 PM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor Well Belloc, all the book pushers said it would happen again. I prefer the Old American system of witch hunts and hangings, but I guess the centuries of Politically Corectedness have made inroads to my evolved persona.

Wyurm | 11-10-2007 08:09 PM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor Actually, I've been thinking about this. There are small towns all over America and through the UN's bio-diversity project, they are being shunk through attrition. Simply cut off the traffic from freeways etc... and the town dies. I'd like to find a town they are doing that to and with a group of like-minded people, set up a community there. Pretty much keep everything within the community, more or less. Though its probably a bit late to get started on that.

buff01 | 11-10-2007 09:23 PM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 822914) Lucifer's Hammer by Niven & Pournelle is a great novel to read for discussion on this topic. I would think more of a KEEP, than a manor. The time for the manor might come, but more likely it will come in the form of some dedicated community.
Great book. Unfortunately it would take a multi-millionaire to establish the kind of manor described in the book. Maybe the closest thing to it realistically would be a group or neighborhood of friendly individual homes that is able to defend its territory. Maybe a small country community, of around 50-100.

DogFarm | 11-11-2007 12:09 AM
Re: SHTF: The Feudal Manor Hmmm, cross between the Playboy mansion and Feudal Kingdom and in a developing country.....god, I have to put some thought into that.

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