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jaima | 02-27-2008 08:34 AM
back to basics.. water Here's my water situation. My well is too deep for the unit that pumps manually. My pump is very old and I don't want to tamper with it because rust is probably holding it together. When it goes and has to be replaced I will look at a unit that has some type of manual attachment. In the meantime the well wont work if the juice is out. I'm looking at generators this week. Any suggestions? At least it can run the well pump for temporary use. Another option is pond water. We have a huge pond several acres in size. Its feed by a natural spring. What type of water filtration system makes pond water drinkable? I'm running out of $$$$ so it can not be too expensive.

damoc | 02-27-2008 08:48 AM
Re: back to basics.. water Id look at low tech solutions for your pond like windmill pump to header tank have filter set on your drinking water only.In Australia country we had 3 faucets in the kitchen hot, cold and drinking the drinking came from a rainwater tank.

Dave | 02-27-2008 08:59 AM
Re: back to basics.. water There are several things you should take under consideration. First off, when you say your well is too deep, do you know this? Remember, even though well may be drilled 200 or in my case nearly 700 feet deep, water will naturally rise up the well fairly close to the surface meaning you may only be drawing water from 30-10 feet of depth if not less making a hand pump feasible. If you intend to get a generator to run your pump, just be sure that it has a 220V / 30AMP connection for a 1HP pump. Anything less may be at risk of tripping when the pump kicks on and the initial power surge hits the generator. Most generators have a peak wattage amount which is designed to take the startup power requirements of most electrical devices. The other option is solar. If sun is ample in your area, there are great solar powered pump options that are designed to fill a cistern from where you will drawl your water. The best situation is to have an elevated cistern that your solar pump can fill and through gravity your cistern will provide nature pressure to the home. There are a lot of options but you are right and solving your water situation. Water is probably the MOST important item to have in ample supply be it for growing, sanitation, or cooking. Dave

Canadian-guerilla | 02-27-2008 09:04 AM
Re: back to basics.. water Quote:
Originally Posted by jaima (Post 985177) We have a huge pond several acres in size. Its feed by a natural spring.
have you ever gone for a walk to try to find the head of this spring ? if not pick a nice day, and make this a day outing try to walk as far as possible to the beginning of this spring and keep an eye out for anything withing 500 feet of either side of this spring farms - pesticides factorys - everything my 2 cents

jaima | 02-27-2008 09:11 AM
Re: back to basics.. water We have lots of sun but not much wind. I will have to get a little more info on the well. I'm sure it was dug to 350ft. We are in a very serious drought here in NC and I'm not sure how high the underground water table is holding up in the well. I will need to check it. How expensive are solar units? When it comes time to replace it might be an option. At this point we have no above ground cistern. That would be my preference and I have no objection to even hand drawing. I just don't see any major changes until the pump needs replaced.

jaima | 02-27-2008 09:17 AM
Re: back to basics.. water CG, we did find one of the springs when cutting a tree down. With the water table so low its not producing. I know for sure there is another one in the pond. I suspect there are several on the property because there is evidence through tons of arrowheads that lower parts of the property had a lot of of activity in the past. I thinking finding the springs sound like a great idea. There is a tiny creek . I think I will start by following that.

Dave | 02-27-2008 09:20 AM
Re: back to basics.. water Quote:
Originally Posted by jaima (Post 985227) We have lots of sun but not much wind. I will have to get a little more info on the well. I'm sure it was dug to 350ft. We are in a very serious drought here in NC and I'm not sure how high the underground water table is holding up in the well. I will need to check it. How expensive are solar units? When it comes time to replace it might be an option. At this point we have no above ground cistern. That would be my preference and I have no objection to even hand drawing. I just don't see any major changes until the pump needs replaced.
Since you have a spring fed pond, I am willing to bet your water level in the well is pretty high since it probably comes from the same aquifer. This site will provide a good bit of knowledge on solar systems in general including water pumps: http://www.backwoodssolar.com/ Use the drop down links on the left to find the water pump section. Dave

jaima | 02-27-2008 09:25 AM
Re: back to basics.. water Thanks Dave, I will check it out.

Tn...Andy | 02-27-2008 09:34 AM
Re: back to basics.. water Assuming you have no sources of pollution on your spring/pond that are obvious......like the spring is just downhill from neighbors septic field, or such, then I'd look to that as your best and cheapest source right now. Getting a generator for the well is fine IF you're talking short term power outage......you can fire up the generator, pump water, and shut it down. You can do that for AS LONG AS YOU HAVE FUEL.....so consider your fuel source. Got propane now ? I'd probably look serious at propane genset. IF you're talking lonnnnng term, better look to that spring/pond. Stage:1 You just hand carry water, and use a portable water filter for all drinking needs ( like a Big Berkey ). Wash with raw water, probably ok with minimal filtering for large critters. 2: You put in a small, gasoline/something powered pump, and use a portable tank in a pickup up or trailer to truck 100-200 gallons to the house. Throw a little bleach in the tank to keep the water sanitized. 3: Use the same pump, run a line or even a hose, to a tank permanently set up at the house.....cut out the transport and fuel use of that. You walk down, fire up the pump, fill the tank, and cut it off. 4: You replace the gasoline pump with a solar pump. Solar pumps work best if you have a tank on the other end you can gravity feed from for pressure delivery. Not having any idea how your place lays, I can't tell you what to do.....but if you can get the tank up 30-40' elevation above the house, you can have almost normal pressure ( 1/2lb pressure per foot of elevation basically ).....even 10' will give you water you don't have to pump, so if you could mount a 100 gallon tank on the roof, that would work ( remember water weighs 8lb/gallon and take that into consideration when mounting tanks ) Solar pumps systems are cheaper (no batteries, etc ) and more simple in the long run IF you have a storage system, since the pump will just run and run while the sun shines, filling the tank ( don't forget you will need an overflow line too ) during the day, and allowing you use of the water nights/cloudy days.

Alpine5654 | 02-27-2008 09:35 AM
Re: back to basics.. water Perhaps a Berkey Water Filter. It will filter pond water Approx $280.00 http://www.berkeywater.com/

TheSimpleton | 02-27-2008 03:22 PM
Re: back to basics.. water There are too many questions we can't answer here. Can you drop a handpump in on top of the existing collar? Even if the other is in there, it would work depending on what was where. Cisterns could be very cheap since they're just parged block or a stock tank (if you don't mind plastic). Pond water is fine, folks make too much of it. But certainly it would be a waste of a Berkey. These sort of volumes, and over the amount of time you'd have, set up a 5-gal bucket, trash can, whatever, with gravel, sand and clay. You have all day and night for it to filter, and you can rebuild your filter. They also do this with matching cisterns, where one is rainwater, and it upflows through a column of sand to the pure cistern. Solar is certainly easy and doable as there are DC pumps made special. You might find a mechanical windmill, but the price of either is high and can break etc. A handpump is used for hundred years and is very reliable. You can make your own of wood and a leather shoe-tongue if you need. If you have any elevation, a tank is tempting. You can also put small amounts in the attic but water is heavy. Lehman's has a hand-pump that can pump elevation. I guess the question is, what is your scenario? Permanent, interim, under duress or just poverty? The longest, cheapest, least movable situation is always preferable. How about a fountain (gravity-powered oxygenating/UV water purifier) and a roman aqueduct? It would look good in the yard. TS

Codger | 02-27-2008 04:46 PM
Re: back to basics.. water I love it when someone revives a thread like this. Thank you for the Berkey post. I learn something new here everyday.

jaima | 02-27-2008 05:11 PM
Re: back to basics.. water Heres the situation. I really don't want to disturb the pump until it breaks. It is 28 yrs old so it has to be on deaths door. When the pump is replaced I would like to put a new pump, possibly something solar with an optional hand pump [if it will go in that deep]. In the meantime if TSHTF and we lose power I need an alternative water source. I'm going to get a generator but that is fuel dependent. I'm thinking at this point both the house and the hideout place have their own water sources very close so a type of filtration device that converts lake or pond water for drinking water would be best. You mentioned making my own filter. I was wondering about that the last time I cleaned the fish tank. Can you make a type of emergency filter using charcoal. If so how effective are they. Whatever filtration device I use until a new pump is installed has to be portable because we may have to head for hills.

jaima | 02-27-2008 08:24 PM
Re: back to basics.. water Anyone have any experience with this fillter? http://www.trailspace.com/gear/katadyn/drip-gravidyn/

bl96S5eu | 02-27-2008 11:36 PM
Re: back to basics.. water Quote:
Originally Posted by jaima (Post 986248) Anyone have any experience with this fillter? http://www.trailspace.com/gear/katadyn/drip-gravidyn/
You've mentioned money is tight but make sure to do understand your ongoing costs as well. Personally that doesn't look quite as durable as the Berkey, we use a Berkey exclusively in our house now and it works great. For a few dollars more you could get a travel berkey. Be absolutely clear on pricing on the filters and if they can be washed and reused because it could end up being like a printer. The initial purchase price was low but the cartridges offset the savings quickly.

tojaktoty | 02-28-2008 04:57 AM
Re: back to basics.. water From the berkeywater.com site: --- The media within the elements remove contaminants by a surface phenomenon known as “adsorption” which results from the molecular attraction of substances to the surface of the media. The exclusive purification elements are also impregnated with proprietary “absorbing” media that promote IONIC “absorption” of pollutants within the micro-porous elements. Another reason Berkey® systems are so effective in removing contaminants from water is the extremely long “contact period”. --- Anyone here purchase one and can vouch for their products? Have you 'tested' these filters? I.e. passed unpotable water through it and verified the filtering capability? My initial question was whether anyone tested the TDS - total dissolved solids - in the output water. However, their site states that their products can "remove food coloring from water without removing the beneficial minerals your body needs" which explicitly means that it's incapable of small micron filtration of elements to a very low tds/ppm. Nevertheless, it appears that the filter catches harmful compounds successfully keeping the filtered water within what the EPA & ANSI/NSF consider as safe levels. Anyway, I have a couple of reverse osmosis units that I currently use with a bunch of extra spare filters for future use. I also have pressure booster pumps, one constant and another variable, and plan to eventually get a solar pv system running with battery power to sustain the pumps when it may be necessary to apply pressure to the ro filters. You can't beat <1ppm ro'd water. Then again, this is not a portable option. Its also not really that cheap. But it is the cleanest/purest water you can possibly get. Some of those portable handheld units for sale on the web look interesting- I'm curious how low of a ppm one can expect out of them. Has anyone tested their water filters with a tds ppm/ec meter to see the difference between the filtered and unfiltered water :questionm

walker10 | 02-28-2008 05:11 AM
Re: back to basics.. water For your pond water, I don't think you can go wrong with either the Big Berkey or Katadyn filters. For smaller quantities, any of the Katadyn purifiers designed for hiking/camping are time proven designs and have the virtue of a filter that can be cleaned instead of replaced. Another type of pump that hasn't been mentioned is the Simple Pump. http://www.simplepump.com/ This pump will draw from about 200 ft. and can be connected to your water line in such a way that you can pressurize your moderating tank so your household water will operate normally until the pressure drops, in which case you'll have to pump the Simple Pump to repressurize the tank again. If you check their site, you'll also find that they have a variety of options for powering the pump. Not particularly cheap, but without water...well you're pretty much sunk.

jaima | 02-28-2008 07:51 AM
Re: back to basics.. water The price of filters is a main consideration in buying a portable unit. Our water has a very heavy calcium content and it eats filters up. Ill do some more homework today on a portable unit. I would much prefer a unit where the filter can be washed. When the well pump need replaced I will definitely have some type of hand installed pump added. The simple pump wont work because of the depth but I'm sure something will. I'm also going to take a sample of the pond water to get analyzed. Although its feed by a natural spring I have concerns over sewage run off from one house at the top of a hill. I'm going to take a hike this week and look for springs. You know its strange how this stuff works. I ran out of money before I bought a water filter. I turned the situation over to my higher power and yesterday I got a surprise check in the mail for 250 dollars. That should cover the filter. Then one of the Dr's I work with gave us 100 dollar gift certificates. I will use that for food preps.

jaima | 02-28-2008 08:57 AM
Re: back to basics.. water Lt Dan, I guess the next step is to open the pump and check water levels. Since we are in a serious drought they may be deeper then average. I will be a happy woman if I can find some springs even during the drought. :) The area I live in is strange. Its old tobacco farming area. The Farmers and hunters have been getting pushed out to slowly make room for a redneck bedroom community. We house some of the States most undesirable Institutions out here. There is some serious culture clash between southerners and northerners that adds to the odd social dynamics of the community. Our little town has worked up quite the reputation for being extremely hostile to the Government.:D The old timers are tough and knowledable though. Honestly, if things get really bad as in lights out and we are not going to work I think I would head for the alternate site on the lake. I am not a wimp and not afraid of hard work. I will confess I really have a hard time with cold weather. That will be the worst part for me. My oldest Daughter also concerns me. She has some health issues and tires easily. :(

GOLD DUCK | 02-28-2008 09:38 AM
Re: back to basics.. water QWAK,jaima,I have been having problems with my well pump now since early Dec. and it looks like I am going to have to pull 160' of pipe and pump back out of the ground agen and wile doing a little on line research I came across this and thought it may be of some use to you. http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...36.html?page=1 I realy don't look forward to climbing that big tree next to the well to hook up the rope and pully block,I'm getting too old for climbing trees especialy in the winter time!:wink: I am thinking it may have blown a seal inside the pump as I get a little water but no real volume or pressure. It is always somthing,get all set for one project and somthing that is more important happens and IT takes priority!:wink: the DUCK

jaima | 02-28-2008 10:03 AM
Re: back to basics.. water Duck, thanks for the link. It looks like I am going to need some education on pumps. Are you going to try and fix your pump or replace it? Do you have an alternate hand pump? I have watched the pump being pulled before. It looks like cussing work. Good luck! LT Dan, our pump is submersible and one pipe. I am avoiding dealing with the pump but it sounds like there are some viable alternatives from what you are saying. LOL about the Southern attitude... you sound like you would fit right in around here. Come on down where its warmer. I do not comprehend how you guys stand the cold up there. I wither when it gets below 40 degrees.

jaima | 02-28-2008 10:33 AM
Re: back to basics.. water LT Dan, coastal living is great but the storms and hurricanes can wipe you out over night. Better to live off the coast and drive to the beach for fishing trips. We still have lots of cheap land here in NC when you get out of certain areas. Honestly though I dont consider it that warm here. Its 38 degrees at the moment...brrrrr

GOLD DUCK | 02-28-2008 12:10 PM
Re: back to basics.. water QWAK,jaima,I started out with a nice new jet pump from Sears in 87 and had to replace it in 93 (in the middle of winter) when my pump house burned down and the plastic pipes melted and droped down the hole!:banghead: Went with out runing water for over a month!:rant: Replaced IT with a down the hole type because it was cheeper and only has one pipe,160' of 1 1/4" pipe filled with water is incredably HEAVY! Climbed the tree and set up a pully and rope hooked to my old Jimmy and pulled it out 10' at a time using hose clamps to lock it from droping back down the hole each time I puller it as far as I could,it took TWO DAYS!:banghead: I hate to spend the $$$$ to buy a new one but most likely will as I pump more water than most people ever would due to my BATH/GREEN HOUSE project removing the over burden (2') down to bed rock over such a large aeria. IF I am luckey (very RARE) the old pump can be repaired or rebuilt and it can be a back up spare for the future. First step will be to make shure the water is still down there! I have this fear that some one may be pumping out the local aquafer as they did a lot of blasting a fiew years back to build a highwy tunnel about 1/4 mile from the cabin and last summer brought in a city water pipe line across my property. I DON'T want city water and a montly bill that can be increased any time they decide they need more $$$! With out the well I never would have bought the property in the first place BUT over time things change, like that new HIGH WAY which I hate with a passion!:rant: With out WATER this place becomes just rocks and wilderness once agen! I discovered right next to the drilled well a hand doug well 16' deep in solid rock that had been filled in and cleand it out but it is just surface water from rain and tends to smell real funkey but is ok for watering etc. when we have rain. From early July to late Sept. it tends to be very dry here,the ground gets hard a cement and with out water even the grass and weeds dry up and die,so my plan is for HYDROPONIC gardening, mostly inside the green house. It also keeps the deer from eating it all befor I can!:D I could NEVER move back to the city but I got to admit it was nice having runing water with out ever having to think ware it came from or how it got to my kitchen and bath. Perhaps THAT is why people WAIST so much water?:questionm To me DEPENDENCE is sort of SLAVERY and being INDEPENDENT is what being FREE is realy all about. Having ones own well and water is just one step above discovering FIRE as fare as being human and NOT having water is going to be a huge problem to much of mankind in the not too distent future!:thinkey: the DUCK

RealJack | 02-28-2008 02:01 PM
Re: back to basics.. water Jaima. I have no idea of the lay of your land or if your pond flows out into a little creek, but if you have even a little bubbling spring it's quite possible to move that water up hill to your house into a tank with nothing but the energy of the flowing water. Look into a RAM PUMP... Very inexpensive, you can even make it yourself. If you find a trickle out of the pond, or better, upstream from the pond, build a little dam with a pipe out to the ram pump. Beavers build dams out of sticks and mud. I bet you could too. http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/ram_pump.htm http://www.clemson.edu/irrig/Equip/ram.htm

jaima | 02-29-2008 07:50 AM
Re: back to basics.. water Real jack, I went hiking yesterday. I found several springs but none close to the house. I'm going to the other side of the property this weekend. I think they are everywhere. In fact there may be one in the backyard close to the house. The first thing I am going to do is order a water testing kit and see whats in all the water around here. When I was hiking yesterday I saw signs of some dumping of toxic barrels near the stream that feeds the pond. Either its old pesticides or materials from my neighbors Still. If I can locate a spring near the house and the water checks out I would love to put a RAW pump on there. I will save those links.

jaima | 02-29-2008 08:00 AM
Re: back to basics.. water Duck, Jeez, how did your well house burn up? LOL about the tree method of pulling the pump. Anytime you pull that much pipe it has to be a pain in the rear. The whole pump stuff is a hassle but you and I know we would never trade our wells for municipal water. :)

jaima | 02-29-2008 08:49 AM
Re: back to basics.. water Lt Dan, yeah a ram pump..LOL If I can find a natural spring and put a small, inexpensive pump on it that would be a perfect backup system for drinking water. Our well water is full of calcium. It clogs pipes and makes horrible coffee. I buy distilled water to make coffee. Aside form that its OK. Spring water would be great.. Everyone still dowses for wells in this area. Its just a given. I watched the dowser do ours. It was intersting!!! I just listened to a show on coast to coast that explained how it worked. Someday Science will bridge these mysteries.

RealJack | 02-29-2008 09:39 AM
Re: back to basics.. water Jaima, here's a video of the basic ram pump idea in action. I read somewhere that all it needs to work is a spring that puts out about 3 gallons a minute. That's why the guy in the video combined two small springs into the one catch basin. Also, an even easier and less expensive system would be rain water catchment, which I think has already been mentioned. Rainwater has many advantages over well or spring water. It's naturally soft water, basically distilled, and is less alkaline. Better for the garden and better for drinking, I believe, so long as it's filtered. I like the idea of filtering it through gravel, sand and charcoal. <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hIFVGq3RFRE"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hIFVGq3RFRE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

jaima | 02-29-2008 10:02 AM
Re: back to basics.. water Real jack, wow the distance the water travels was impressive! I gather the pump worked on air and no electricity. Three gallons a minute is a good flow, I can see why they needed to combine springs. LT Dan, have heard some interesting ideas on why dowsing or pendulums work. One thing for sure is some people are lot more gifted then others. Have you eve played with a dowsing rod?

GOLD DUCK | 02-29-2008 10:05 AM
Re: back to basics.. water QWAK,jaima, I was having problems with the water freezing so I set up a light and used a furniture pad to keep the heat close to the pump,it worked a little too well aparently.:wink: The pump house and all my plumbing tools and equipment plus all my shovels and garden equip burned up. I woke up aboyt 2:30 am to a warm glow out side my window! I was luckey realy because it could have taken the whole place and with the pump gone NO water to fight the fire! Still makes me feel sick when I see the pile of old rusty tools and equipment and thiking how long it took to acumulate and the things I gave up saving to buy.:puke: Ironicly I had a box of sprinkler heads I had bought and intended to install in the cabin as part of my fire prevention plan and they were in the fire but survived just having the fusable links melted. It got so hot it melted heavy glass and aluminum and burned holes in copper tubing that was stored in the pump house. I estimate the loss at well over 4K,and of corse NO insurance and no $$$ to replace any of it! When a fire gets going out in the boonies with any kind of wind blowing, it can get out of hand faster than people realise or at least what I had imagined. All I could do was watch and hope it did not spread to the house and brush. the DUCK

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jaima | 02-29-2008 10:29 AM
Re: back to basics.. water Jeez, Duck you are lucky the whole place didn't go up! Don't feel bad. I set the yard on fire burning trash. Boy it moved fast too. Good thing the hose worked. Be careful in the trees. I know from working in the ER when ever men start rigging things and especially were trees are involved it can be bad combo.. LOL My favorite ER home improvement story was of man who decided to patch his roof. His wife begged him to "call the man" but he insisted on doing it himself. He picked a 100 degree day to work on the roof. He got up there promptly dehydrated and fainted. His elderly Mother panicked and climbed to the roof to help him. She got stuck too. The lifeline Helicopter had to go to his little suburban neighborhood and rescue both of them.. All the neighbors flooded the ER to check on him. Then the news cameras showed up. We gave him and his mother fluids and checked them out. The man was really embarrassed. His wife had that look on her face. The one that says you will NEVER hear the end of this one.

TheSimpleton | 02-29-2008 10:34 AM
Re: back to basics.. water I didn't know if the idea of clay filtration got through, so I researched it more. We never see these simplest things because no one sells them and makes money. Here's the basic concept, but with iron shavings to attract arsenic (special case) http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16947780/ This is a good one, because it is from the book I read on cistern filtration, and gives you some ideas on what it's like: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_lib...devices3b.html http://journeytoforever.org/farm_lib...tml\ch3-23.jpg The whole book appears to be there, and here is the root source for others: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/ You see this is so simple. If you're talking long-term, then a requirement is that you can re-fresh it, perferrably at zero cost as we don't know availability or price. Imagine having a Berkey in Zimbabwe right now--you couldnt' get the filters, and could afford them if you could. The other requirement would be that it's not worth stealing, and can filter the sizable volumes you'd require. Again, I'll add Lehman's pressure-pump: http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/prod...ProductID=1834 It's for in-house (well, if it freezes where you are) but an expensive pump like this might not be trusted outside. They also sell rams, but they are very tuned to their water-flow. If water-flow varies, they may not be good throughout the year. http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/prod...iProductID=274 Directions on how to make rams are available. If you have head, you can use one of their "sand drills" into a spring above the house and let it trickle down through a pipe. This is all the Spring houses were (see "Farm Devices" above) --an (earth) insulated shed with a stone or concrete floor, where the springwater ran year-round, keeping butter and cheese or whatever at 50f. I assume you have Carolina clay and I don't know how well it would flow, even if it's able to drill with this well-point. If you're near the hills, they may have rigs that can drill artisian wells, basically horizontal instead of vertical. And when I suggested putting water in the attic, I forgot to point out that you'd want the 50gal black barrel on your roof as water-heater. Especially worthwhile if you think 38f is "cold", as the pipes would rarely freeze. When you live where 38f is "balmy" you shift toward having the 5gal kicker on the cookstove or a jacket with a pump or thermosiphon to feed the watertank. These are also available at Lehman's, but most things are. I don't see any reason you can't drop a small-diameter hand-pump into the top of your present well-casing, as both pipes should fit. In addition, if you have springs, I bet it's under 30', which means you can use the "kitchen" cistern pumps. Pipes won't hold a column of water over 30', so if it's deeper, the pump mechanism needs to be in the well and not up on the pump-head. That's no problem, however, they're somewhat wide and may not fit in a standard casing, much less one with a pipe already inside it. The width=the gal/stroke. The other problem for you cowboys is that if the pump is 30' from the water it's 80' from the surface, and you have to lift the column of water with each stroke, which is why they used huge windmills. One of these sleeve-pumps may work, I have no experience with the design. They are for ultra-deep wells, simple PVC design, and are the width of the sleeve (for Jaima). Any case, many options, many of which are self-made and free. Although bought may be better, sometimes experience of building and fixability is more important. TS

jaima | 02-29-2008 11:19 AM
Re: back to basics.. water Simpleton, these are great links. I'm going to bookmark the thread and research.

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