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- - best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=144779)

platinumdude | 06-09-2007 08:09 PM
best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Would it be hollow point with no P to make the gun last longer? (Glock 19), or maybe even ball point cause they're cheap?

Au_Ag | 06-09-2007 08:21 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 633309) Would it be hollow point with no P to make the gun last longer? (Glock 19),
Glocks will shoot many thousands of rounds - I wouldn't be concerned about the lifetime of the gun, However, I have read several places that glocks have a tendency to shred the barrel with reloads and other ammo that is not suited to the gun. Am not a glock owner, so didn't pay attention to the specific criteria. You will need to search around on this, unless someone posts to this thread for the info - Other GIM members posted links previously - that is how I became aware of the issue.

<SLV> | 06-09-2007 08:47 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? I think it is smart to load every other - FMJ and JHP - with FMJ being the first shot fired. That way you make sure to get penetration and knock down (especially if a vehicle is involved in the situation). Does anyone make Armor Piercing 9mm?

elroy | 06-09-2007 08:52 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? I've heard numbers thrown around for Glocks lifespan. 40,000 rounds is a number I've heard several times. So I wouldn't worry about wearing one out. Look at the spec's for each brand of ammo. Some premium +P isn't any faster than some good JHP. Any 9mm doing 1200 FPS or better should be fine. I wouldn't buy the super premium stuff at $1 per round. I would stock some good JHP rounds and then a bunch of cheaper ball ammo. Unless you're not concerned about cost then buy all JHP. Fiocchi makes some pretty fast 9mm JHP that sell for normal prices. 115 grain JHP, 1250FPS and 460 FT/Lbs, $12.00 for 50 rds. http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=92045 There has also been some Ranger ammo around on the web for about $12.xx a box. [50 rounds]

sneak | 06-09-2007 09:03 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? I buy the Speer Gold Dots 124 gr. +P for carry and I get the WWB 115 gr. ball ammo for practice and general plinking. Wal-Mart usually has the best price on the WWB and you can find the Gold Dots on gunbroker pretty reasonable if you buy 250 rds. or more.

Bob | 06-09-2007 10:46 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by sneak (Post 633339) I buy the Speer Gold Dots 124 gr. +P for carry and I get the WWB 115 gr. ball ammo for practice and general plinking. Wal-Mart usually has the best price on the WWB and you can find the Gold Dots on gunbroker pretty reasonable if you buy 250 rds. or more.
What's a good price on 250 rds?

KASHMAN02 | 06-09-2007 11:21 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 633309) Would it be hollow point with no P to make the gun last longer? (Glock 19), or maybe even ball point cause they're cheap?
The reality is that just plain lead makes the gun last longer, the Jacketed shells wear the barrrel more , lead can tend to build up in the barell depending on the powder load used. Avoid using jacketed, clean the barell well and it will last about forever, the only variant would be after tens of thousands of rounds the barell wears and you will suffer some accuracy at longer ranges but the gun will function just as well. If you like after a day at the range shoot a clip of the copper jackets thru the gun and it will help clean the lead out of the barell.

ForeverInDebt | 06-09-2007 11:32 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by KASHMAN02 (Post 633389) The reality is that just plain lead makes the gun last longer, the Jacketed shells wear the barrrel more , lead can tend to build up in the barell depending on the powder load used.
With Glocks, I understand that using plain lead rounds is BAAAAD, due to the polygonal rifling. Unless you have an aftermarket barrel with standard rifling.

sneak | 06-09-2007 11:40 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 633378) What's a good price on 250 rds?
Here it is for $67 shipped as long as your not from NY. I have ordered from them before and got fast shipping. http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=73761624

thorgrim | 06-09-2007 11:42 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverInDebt (Post 633396) With Glocks, I understand that using plain lead rounds is BAAAAD, due to the polygonal rifling. Unless you have an aftermarket barrel with standard rifling.
That is correct.

KASHMAN02 | 06-09-2007 11:46 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by thorgrim (Post 633403) That is correct.
Bad how, lead is a softer load than jacketed? We're not talking wheel weight lead here but shooting grade. The proper load does not produce excessive heat thus eliminating the potential for more wear , common theory of actions and reactions.

shades2 | 06-10-2007 12:25 AM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by thorgrim (Post 633403) That is correct.
That's why they often coat rounds with molybdenum disulphide.

Prometheus | 06-10-2007 02:28 AM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? For general hollowpoints I simply stock the remington 100 round value packs from wally world. They were 16 bucks each, but I think they are 19.99 since the price increases. Very good ammo. I don't really go for all the whizbang special hollowpoints, cost to benefit IMO is negligent. I do like the QuikShok bullets and I have a coupel hundreds of them... midwaysusa has them at slightly more than I can buy those remingtons at so I keep some and use them in my carry gun. 500-1,000 rounds of hollowpoints and then a couple thousand of the winchester whitebox or regular remington bulk pack stuff for plinking and SHTF backup.

Satyr | 06-10-2007 08:16 AM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? I still have a few 100 rd boxes of Winchester 9mm ammo I bought at Wal-Mart a few years ago for $10.00/box. They're nothing fancy, but at least I have a lot of them.

shades2 | 06-10-2007 08:43 AM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Maybe some Winchester 9mm Black Talons. Good luck finding them though. :) http://www.thegunzone.com/black-talon.html

Satyr | 06-10-2007 09:28 AM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 633534) Maybe some Winchester 9mm Black Talons. Good luck finding them though. :) http://www.thegunzone.com/black-talon.html
Gunbroker.com has a few auctions up. But they ain't cheap. Edit: Here is an interesting article on the Black Talons. http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs2.htm#Black-Talon Sounds like a lot of hype to me. I wouldn't waste the money.

shades2 | 06-10-2007 10:50 AM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyr (Post 633563) Gunbroker.com has a few auctions up. But they ain't cheap. Edit: Here is an interesting article on the Black Talons. http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs2.htm#Black-Talon Sounds like a lot of hype to me. I wouldn't waste the money.
They seem effective, but yeah, probably overrated, and going to produce a slightly bigger wound-track, and that's about it. On a 9mm it's not as exciting as say a .45 ACP version. If they'd given them a boring name instead of "Black Talon", they'd probably never have made the news. The overreaction at the time, was something to behold.

Satyr | 06-10-2007 11:25 AM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 633592) They seem effective, but yeah, probably overrated, and going to produce a slightly bigger wound-track, and that's about it. On a 9mm it's not as exciting as say a .45 ACP version. If they'd given them a boring name instead of "Black Talon", they'd probably never have made the news. The overreaction at the time, was something to behold.
Yeah, I couldn't help but order a box just now anyway. If nothing else for the novelty of it. As for stocking up, I'll stick with the cheap ammo. I'll still keep a mag of them loaded in the CZ just for the hell of it. Auctionarms.com has quite a few boxes up as well.

thorgrim | 06-10-2007 12:58 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by KASHMAN02 (Post 633405) Bad how, lead is a softer load than jacketed? We're not talking wheel weight lead here but shooting grade. The proper load does not produce excessive heat thus eliminating the potential for more wear , common theory of actions and reactions.
The hexagonal riffling for some reason quickly gets jammed full of lead. After a few shots you are basically shooting a smooth bore. I think the barrels were designed to give superb accuracy and long life from FMJ but the same features backfire when using lead.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Goldfinger | 06-10-2007 05:59 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? I was asking this question myself a while back, below is the link to the thread. I remember having a conversation with a guy out at the range one day about it as well though. He was an ex military, Glock guy and an admitted survivalist. He said he stocks hollow points, but he also stocks up on high pressure 9mm machinegun rounds. He went on to explain that they are much more effective against body armor, should that ever be needed. He also said a Glock can handle the high pressure rounds just fine. I thought it was an interesting perspective for what its worth. As a disclaimer, it is widely known that some high pressure rounds can not be tolerated in some firearms and can possibly result in damage to the firearm, bodily injury and perhaps even accidental death. I would highly suggest calling your firearm manufacturing and specifically asking about a particular high pressure ammo before trying it. http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=106356

shades2 | 06-10-2007 08:29 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldfinger (Post 633830) I was asking this question myself a while back, below is the link to the thread. I remember having a conversation with a guy out at the range one day about it as well though. He was an ex military, Glock guy and an admitted survivalist. He said he stocks hollow points, but he also stocks up on high pressure 9mm machinegun rounds. He went on to explain that they are much more effective against body armor, should that ever be needed. He also said a Glock can handle the high pressure rounds just fine. I thought it was an interesting perspective for what its worth. As a disclaimer, it is widely known that some high pressure rounds can not be tolerated in some firearms and can possibly result in damage to the firearm, bodily injury and perhaps even accidental death. I would highly suggest calling your firearm manufacturing and specifically asking about a particular high pressure ammo before trying it. http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=106356
As a lot of Glocks do not have fully supported chambers on the factory barrel, it would be wise to do what the manufacturer recommends. A lot of people have blown up their Glocks using aggressive reloads, poor ammo, or have simply had case failures for one reason or another, some even claim to have been using factory ammo. This is usually a problem for calibres above 9mm, where higher chamber pressures are involved. Glock in fact, recommend that you use factory ammo only and not reloads. They say you will void your warranty using reloads if something goes bad. In saying this, I have fired thousands of rounds of professionally made moly-coated reloads with no issue so far, but my understanding is they are withdrawn from service after about 10 firings to help prevent case-failure. If you have a Bar-sto or a similar re-manufactured barrel, different rules may apply depending on chamber support.

shades2 | 06-11-2007 05:40 AM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyr (Post 633609) Yeah, I couldn't help but order a box just now anyway. If nothing else for the novelty of it. As for stocking up, I'll stick with the cheap ammo. I'll still keep a mag of them loaded in the CZ just for the hell of it. Auctionarms.com has quite a few boxes up as well.
They are apparently now known and marketed as Ranger SXT after being re-branded from Black Talon due to the bad publicity. The Black Talon round has apparently been surpassed in performance over the years, as the technology is apparently quite old. Federal's Hydrashok is apparently one of the premier rounds nowadays in terms of stoppability. Hydrashok2 (HS2) has apparently also been developed. You can see in the pictures below that expansion is complete after going through about 1 inch of 10% gelatin, which is simply amazing. http://www.thegunzone.com/efmj.html This illustrates two interesting things, the Black Talon round was designed with causing a more nasty wound-track with it's little claws attempting to snag blood vessels/arteries and things along the way. The Hydrashok is designed to expand quickly and to slam as much energy into the target as soon as possible, causing knockdown, shock, and internal damage to sensitive organs. Two very different schools of thought on the operation of a projectile. There are trade-offs in both instances. The Black Talon round seems to expand slowly with the claws, possibly causing a larger wound track once expansion has finished, as it cuts its way along. Without getting too graphic, in a human this expansion may only occur once the projectile has gone in a fair way, say on a gut shot. This is probably ok however, as the organs are kind of back there anyway. The Hydrashok wound-track appears to be somewhat similar, at least judging by the photos. I haven't done any actual research in this area though. I can only guess the Hydrashok is a more effective practical round, as it follows a more modern idea of imparting as much energy as possible in one hit for shock effect. The Black Talon round is more likely to achieve better penetration first however, so everything is a trade-off, and it depends on what you are trying to hit. Obviously you could load your 9mm (if they are the same grain for accuracy), alternating between both rounds quite happily, and enjoy the best of both worlds. :)

Unclad Lad | 06-12-2007 02:30 AM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Nice pics of the EFMJ. That Hydra-Shok is a great round, and I'd certainly feel good having it in my CCW gun, but 200 rounds of that will disappear faster than 1000 rds of White-box FMJ will when it gets hairy everywhere all at once. Remember, when TSHTF your pistol is the handy device that makes the zombies duck their heads as you get back to wherever it is you left your rifle!

shades2 | 06-12-2007 06:08 AM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclad Lad (Post 635010) Nice pics of the EFMJ. That Hydra-Shok is a great round, and I'd certainly feel good having it in my CCW gun, but 200 rounds of that will disappear faster than 1000 rds of White-box FMJ will when it gets hairy everywhere all at once. Remember, when TSHTF your pistol is the handy device that makes the zombies duck their heads as you get back to wherever it is you left your rifle!
True. A rifle forces the enemy to keep their distance, or puts you on the front foot for an assault, and if they are not armed with a rifle, they are at a distinct disadvantage. As you correctly point out, a standard handgun or shotgun is for close-quarters defence, and a last-ditch moral booster only.

goldminer | 06-17-2007 01:00 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? In a SHTF environment the best ammunition for a 9mm is none. Trade the 9mm off for a reliable auto that shoots a .40 or .45 caliber bullet, shoot it often and keep it clean. And get a reliable pump 12 guage shotgun. Keep it clean also.

<SLV> | 06-17-2007 01:56 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Changed my mind... Federal Tactical (bonded). It is a hollow point that will not mushroom when penetrating hard surfaces (glass, sheet metal), but it expands in a soft target. Talked to a gun guy who said alternating rounds (HP/FMJ) is just asking for a jam. I'm switching over to the Federal Tactical. PS - Goldminer, 9mm is a great round... period. Why else to all the law enforcement use it? Why else have most SMG been calibrated in it? Saw a "Myth Busters" report which showed the 9mm as being the most effective at penetrating ballistic gel in an underwater target. Above all, I can get off 3 rounds of 9mm (on target) for every 2 you can get out of your .45.

REV127 | 06-17-2007 03:21 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Yeah, but cowboys used .45's, and so did WWII vets. Plus all the gun writers are always saying how great .45's are!

<SLV> | 06-17-2007 03:24 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 639623) Yeah, but cowboys used .45's, and so did WWII vets. Plus all the gun writers are always saying how great .45's are!
Cowboys, really? Well, I'm going to have to rethink this, then. Cowboys always win.

platinumdude | 06-17-2007 03:58 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 639554) Changed my mind... Federal Tactical (bonded). It is a hollow point that will not mushroom when penetrating hard surfaces (glass, sheet metal), but it expands in a soft target. Talked to a gun guy who said alternating rounds (HP/FMJ) is just asking for a jam. I'm switching over to the Federal Tactical. PS - Goldminer, 9mm is a great round... period. Why else to all the law enforcement use it? Why else have most SMG been calibrated in it? Saw a "Myth Busters" report which showed the 9mm as being the most effective at penetrating ballistic gel in an underwater target. Above all, I can get off 3 rounds of 9mm (on target) for every 2 you can get out of your .45.
Are you able to purchase them (Federal Tactical Bonded 9mm 124gr LE9T1)? I read this: "The ammo is restricted by Federal to Law Enforcement sells only. This is Federal's rules not the law.."

<SLV> | 06-17-2007 06:19 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 639648) Are you able to purchase them (Federal Tactical Bonded 9mm 124gr LE9T1)? I read this: "The ammo is restricted by Federal to Law Enforcement sells only. This is Federal's rules not the law.."
Well, I was at a shop on Friday looking at it ($20/box). The box was marked "Law Enforcement", but they said there was no reason they couldn't sell it to me. I suppose it depends on the dealer.

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Infidel | 06-17-2007 06:47 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? the one that fires reliably and is cheap.

platinumdude | 06-22-2007 09:14 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? I bought 600 rounds of American Federal ball point. As I use it on the range I will trade it for some speer +p hallow point.

Goldfinger | 06-22-2007 10:03 PM
Re: best shtf ammo for a 9mm pistol? I just picked up 1000 rounds of Speer Gold Dot 124Gr +P for $250 on www.gunbroker.com Thats about as cheap as I've found any premium quality HP rounds as of late...

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