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- - Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=193266)

money matters | 10-26-2007 08:27 PM
Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? The book by Mel Tappan. THE authoritative work on firearms for the survivor. Tappan postulated that firearms were special purpose tools and that when your life is at stake, you don't need to "make do", you need to have the proper tool for the job. Simply a great book, even if it dates from 1976. The premise is that working rifles, handguns and shotguns are your everyday game-getters; and that when/if the chips are down, you need/must have those special weapons that can fire hundreds of rounds without failure. Tappan goes as far as to discuss archery gear, pellet guns, scopesights, and ammounition/handloading. There is a section where experts like Jeff Cooper and Col. Burt Miller of Armalite (back then) discuss what gear they would go to. Tappan lists a number of inventories done in consultation with several clients. Basically, assault rifles and 1911 semi-auto pistols form the core because you can hunt with an assault rifle, but are out of luck if you have to defend your home from a party of marauders with a Ruger #1 or Shiloh Sharps. Military current use ctgs are particularly advised, in both working and defensive employment, having that extra boost of common interchangeability along with adequate performance outweighs the need for "that wildcat that does it better'. Much about the flexibility of revolvers and their excellence as the working gun you always have with you. The .22LR as that great choice for small game and pest dispatch. The .177 pellet rifle as a quiet small game getter. There is a great section on accessories, holsters, modifications and interlaced throughout are Tappan's anecdotes and admonishments. There is a section on Special Purpose guns, like Thompson Contender, and the S&W mod 19 2.5" barreled .357mag (today he would endorse the J frame .357s, for hideout pocket pistol duty). Tappan also makes the case for a .22LR Target Pistol if your budget allows. Definitely worth owning, if only to get the philosophy and game plan which no one ever extrapolated more clearly. Even if you chose the weapons he recommends, you would be many legs up over those who will try to "make do". Tappan also published one of the firest survival news letters. These were reprinted during the early 90's, may still be available. Contributors included JB Wood a true generalist gunsmith expert, Col Jeff Cooper, and many other notables. Some of Cooper's articles are reprinted in his book Fireworks! One article entitled Ballistic Wampum is very interesting. Cooper advised storing ammunition, noting that it would be a preferred medium of exchange "...after the Committee comes to power". Col Jeff endorsed buying stocks of the popular chamberings so you have something to trade that will be in high demand, whether you own the firearm or not. A really good idea, especially today. People are always posting, "What's the best....", and "How many..." threads here. Read this book and you will know. Read it with an eye for the philosophy and game plan of THE Greatest Survivalist ever. Tappan was Lots More than just a gun freak. He was expert on the Whole Gamut. Between himself and Kurt Saxon who was a newsletter contributor and the man who coined the term "survivalist", they shaped the whole genre. If you are a golfer, how many clubs do you haul to play 18 holes? Having the right tool selection could really pay handsomely sometime in the near future for you and your family. There will never be a better time to be satisfied that you've covered all your bases. Don't forget, in times of chaos; gun sales can be halted, guns might be banned, and those distinctly defensive weapons could be outlawed. Better buy semi-auto pistols and semi-auto battlerifles first. And don't forget the ammunition. Better to have one .308 battlerifle and 5K rds of ball ammo that a selection of 15 firearms and 100 rds each.

SilverCity | 10-26-2007 09:03 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Was a great one for its time...if you can find a copy, you will pay good money for it... I like the distinction he makes between working guns and defensive guns, something others on another GIM thread need to read...:D "Tappan on Survival" is also one of my all time favorites...

extremist | 10-27-2007 01:25 AM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? You can basically distill it down to: HK-91 AR-180 Colt 1911 Remington 870 Thus, a bit antiquated for our modern times.

REV127 | 10-27-2007 05:39 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? It's not such a good idea to use bullets as a medium of exchange. You trade one bullet to a guy for a can of beans. Guy loads his gun, shoots you in the back of the head, gets his can of beans back and all the rest of your bullets and other stuff. The one and only supply of ammo you can rely on is the one you lay in for yourself. If you can capture enemy ammo then you've also captured the weapon that shoots it. You might get lucky and meet a sucker who will give you a bullet for a can of beans but honestly just buy the gun you want and stock up plenty of ammo for it. It's all a crapshoot.

money matters | 10-27-2007 06:13 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Rev, Pretty hard to teach a man to fish, if he laughs at the net and lure.

money matters | 10-27-2007 07:14 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? BTW, saw something about a NEW ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN proposed by Sen. Joe Biden. If you are going to want to own Defensive weapons, might be a good idea to acquire them now.

money matters | 10-28-2007 02:59 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? What would an addendum to Mel's Book have consisted of? Add your thoughts, please. The expansion of firearms and products in the last 30 years has been phenomenal! My additions: Working Guns handguns/pistols: Ruger Super Redhawk aside from the Goliath frame S&W500, Linebaughs and .45-70 revolvers; the SRH chambers the most powerful production ctgs in a superbly crafted stainless steel framework for durability, accuracy and value. Available in .44magnum, .454 Casull, .460 S&W (a magnum Casull, if one were ever needed), and .480 Ruger; this handgun comes with stainless Ruger pattern scope rings and is a formidable Survival Tool. Handloading is a MUST to obtain all the flexibility the handgun is able to deliver. If you want to shoot the 300+ grain .44mag bullets; this is the tool for the job. A super trigger pull right out of the box. Capable of fine accuracy. If you need a rifle on your hip, this is the one. The .454 Casull is likely the best all around choice. Taurus Firearms; high quality S&W replicas, some say equivalents for less money. Freedom Arms; arguably the finest single-action handguns ever made. The FA in .454 Casull started the Big Boring Handgun revolution.

markt | 10-28-2007 03:35 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? I just bought a Ruger 454 Casull revolver. It will shoot 240 grain bullets at 2000 feet per second. Or shoot 45Colt low-recoil cowboy loads. Revolvers are much easier to handload 100% reliable cartridges over semiautomatics since the bullet insertion is controlled by the rim and doesn't headspace on the mouth of the case like in 45 autos. I've reloaded both and I'd trust a reloaded revolver cartridge over a reloaded automatic cartridge any day. Once I get a good mould, 25,000 primers, and 1000 new brass cases, I'll be set for doomsday...

wallew | 10-28-2007 05:16 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? It doesn't matter WHAT flavor you like. JUST GO GET IT NOW. PLUS as much ammo as you can. MINIMUM requirements (for me at least) is: 1000 rounds per pistol & bolt action rifle you own 2000 rounds per semi auto rifle own MORE is better. Reloading is definitely a plus. But 'get r done' NOW. By this time NEXT YEAR, you will wish you HAD spent the money. Because prices are only going up, regardless of what you shoot. Don't forget extra parts (I have one parts kit for every semi auto rifle I own, which is everything but the receiver). For my CZ52's I own an armorers kit, which gives me every moving part for 10 pistols (close enough). So don't forget extra parts, extra mags and LOTS and LOTS of ammo. Hey, if all the prices drop, then you can buy more and shoot it all up whenever you want to. But don't hold your breath.

SilverCity | 10-28-2007 05:40 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? AMEN Mr. Wallew

money matters | 10-28-2007 06:05 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Other working handguns, new on the scene: Desert Eagle; Superb semi-auto in .357mag, & .44mag. Maybe you like the .50Action Express? Not the greatest for shooting low powered handloads, but if you've ever gotten a bit peturbed at the sting in your palm after 30+ full-power .44mag factory loads, this will tame it completely. The .44 seems the best choice. A very simple design, rugged, easily controllable and if you can't take down a Kodiak Bear with 8 rounds, shame on you! The Wildley, AMT Auto-Mag, and LAR Grizzly semi-auto handguns mentioned in SG have long been off the scene. Like Cooper's Bren-10, an idea which could not be marketed unto success. Smith and Wesson have gone through about 4 owners since SG was printed. Many of the fine specialty revolvers are gone, or come out only in special limited runs or on contract to certain wholesalers. The .41 Remington Magnum is somewhat a lost cause these days. Been a longtime since I've seen a .30Carbine Blackhawk. Does Colt still ship the Model P (the Legendary Single Action Army or New Frontier w/adj sights)? Python? Diamondback? Anaconda? Or any of the various Police, Detective and Bankers Specials? I would also consider parts availability and order some spare parts for any guns I own. Brownells is a good source, maybe Midway? Working Rifles: The morphing of the Savage 110 into one of the more common tactical rifles has been due to Savage's response to the tactical shooter market, and the preponderance of accessories, like pre-fit barrels from Shilen, and H-S Precision stocks etc etc. Savage also developed a relatively inexpensive Scout Rifle based on Jeff Cooper's Scout Rifle concept. Steyr-Mannlicher's development with Col Cooper of the Scout Rifle and Scout Dragoon (.376 Steyr) is right up Tappan's Alley. A multi-purpose, lightweight and accurate rifle system costing about $2k in its day, The Scout Rifle is a great idea, but not a One-Rifle solution. No doubt, if you owned one of these , along with a .308 sturmgewehr, Mel would have been satisfied. Or maybe not! The Remington 700 since the mid-1990s has developed into a wide-range of special purpose rifles. Why buy a model 700 BDL (unless you envision only hunting), when you can get a Varmint Special with superb H-S Precision stock, Fluted Stainless barrel and stainless action? Or maybe you want the PSS stock design to even more serve your precision needs? The Sendero is the magnum big brother having been made from .25-06 Rem, all the way up to .338 Rem Ultra Magnum. Wow! Wow, those Remington 700s with the fluted barrels are light and damned accurate , needing only a trigger pull adjustment to really perform. The Sako and Tikka line continues to be a superb value with craftsmanship and detail that American companies don't care about. The TRG-22/42 being the World's Finest Production Tactical rifle. Hunting? Sure you can hunt with one, a lot easier than you can make a 400yd shot on an elk with a plain-jane bolt rifle or lever-action. Speaking of lever-actions; there has really been a Marlin Renaissance since the .45-70 model 1895 was reintroduced in the late-70's. Marlin Guide Guns and all the Cowboy Action shooting Lever guns, along with bullet mold updates have really made this an active working gun niche. Lots of people would include the Thompson Center single shots here, but they were special purpose tools in Mel's book. A single shot weapon of any kind may simply not be always relied upon for the follow up shot you may need to prevent game from escaping. Shotguns? Not much has changed that I'm aware of. Maybe the Benelli and the H-K shotgun that the user can select from semi-auto or pump actuation; but.. I guess Remington now imports the Baikal lumpara shorty double-barrels, but those are more a defensive piece. Remington, Mossberg, and Browning continue to evolve their shotgun lines with Special Purpose models. Interchangeable chokes are commonplace since Mel's day. The tactical shotgun has evolved greatly from the days of the mere riot-gun barrel. The 10ga shotgun is likely a backseat item these days. Have never come across a 3.5" 12ga hull in the field or trap range. Browning has to be commended for the special run of Model 12 20ga shotguns they did in the 80's and 90s. Where have the Superposed Browning O/U's gone? A nice set of 12 & 20 Superposeds would make the game gathering game lots of fun! Maybe pass shooting at geese with a Broadway Trap?

money matters | 10-28-2007 06:25 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Some good thoughts from Wallew above. But, what parts? He says, "Don't forget extra parts (I have one parts kit for every semi auto rifle I own, which is everything but the receiver)." Everything? Every part but the receiver? You can about afford to buy another complete weapon if you're buying all those replacement parts with their attendant super-high markups. Actually there are lots of parts that stand never to break; unless maybe you drop them out of a plane onto rocky ground. JB Wood in Mel Tappan's Personal Survival Letter did a column for 24 issues with each column discussing one of the various popular guns for survival. In this article, JB discussed what parts were likely to break, and also he detailed a basic kit of tools to enable hobbyist success when working on firearms. You might want to find the Gun Digest Books Series on Firearms Assembly/Disassembly, and the NRA Gunsmithing Guide, Maybe Hatcher's Notebook, definitely Every one of the Jerry Kuhnhausen Shop Manual series that applies to your firearm collection. Brownells Gunsmith Kinks series is also excellent. If you are going to invest the Serious Money to maintain your collection, you will need the tools and references to do so without ruining your weapons. You might even phone Brownells tech support and ask what parts they recommend keeping for spares. Ruger parts will prove to be the most difficult to acquire. Luckily they are very robust and simple designs.

wallew | 10-28-2007 07:33 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? MM, MY BAD. I should have added "on the cheap". I got a pair of AMD 65 parts kits for about $90 each. I just picked up a PPS43 parts kit for $50. NEVER spend big bucks for a parts kit. If you keep your eye out you can generally find them on the cheap every once and a while. The cost of an AMD 65 assembled bolt runs around $55 - $60. Add in the FCG (trigger, sear, hammer and springs) and you can double that. Plus you don't get the front or rear trunion unless you get the parts kit. Not that you SHOULD NEED THEM, but hey, it's nice to have anyway. Plus the chrome lined barrel is also nice to have as a spare. Again, not that you should need it, but it comes in the parts kit. Yeah, Brownells IS THE PLACE for gunsmithing supplies and tools. And +1 on ANY KUHNHAUSEN books. They are worth their weight in gold for sure.

electric-amish | 10-28-2007 09:31 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 800528) It doesn't matter WHAT flavor you like. JUST GO GET IT NOW. PLUS as much ammo as you can. MINIMUM requirements (for me at least) is: 1000 rounds per pistol & bolt action rifle you own 2000 rounds per semi auto rifle own MORE is better. Reloading is definitely a plus. But 'get r done' NOW. By this time NEXT YEAR, you will wish you HAD spent the money. Because prices are only going up, regardless of what you shoot. Don't forget extra parts (I have one parts kit for every semi auto rifle I own, which is everything but the receiver). For my CZ52's I own an armorers kit, which gives me every moving part for 10 pistols (close enough). So don't forget extra parts, extra mags and LOTS and LOTS of ammo. Hey, if all the prices drop, then you can buy more and shoot it all up whenever you want to. But don't hold your breath.
' How long will Ammunition last? In a Box in the closet. Not hermetically sealed. Electric-Amish

SilverCity | 10-28-2007 09:38 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Short answer, probably outlast you. Longer answer, A few years back I shot some WWI 30-06 ammo and it went BANG every time...maybe not at optimum performance, but...Properly stored ammo will last for DECADES...you need to protect it from temperature extremes and moisture...military surplus ammo cans with rubber seal intact :wink:

negative1 | 10-28-2007 09:39 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Never read the book. I may have to look it up now. I did really like "Boston's Gun Bible". Sounds like they may be along the same lines. -1

Bimetallist | 10-29-2007 03:31 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Quote:
Originally Posted by electric-amish (Post 800817) ' How long will Ammunition last? In a Box in the closet. Not hermetically sealed. Electric-Amish
Longer than you will. I would say possibly hundreds of years if kept dry. I have just bought some WWII surplus Greek 8X57 Mauser ammo from 1940 and it is just in paper boxes and its in perfect condition and works fine at 67 years old.

REV127 | 10-29-2007 05:45 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 799547) Rev, Pretty hard to teach a man to fish, if he laughs at the net and lure.
I'd rather have my own stash of ammo and be the one with the cans of beans to trade for all kinds of valuable stuff. Right now a can of beans can be had for around fifty cents. That is less for a can of beans than a single round of many kinds of ammo. Have you seen .308 hollow points lately? Cans of beans get heavy if you have to bug out. PM's are an option. Seeds are lighter. Unlike bullets, seeds beget more seeds which can be used to make more food to buy more stuff you want. I'm not a big fan of handguns that weigh more than rifles, fire ammo that weighs more than rifle ammo and costs more than rifle ammo, yet does not shoot as well as a rifle but to each his own. Personally I think you'd get further with a folding stock on a rifle, or something like a Sub-2000. I do think there's a niche for a specialized foraging gun like a .22lr youth rifle cut for minimum weight and modified with a collapsible or folding stock. Light, tiny ammo, light and tiny gun yet will kill a whole bunch of things with one or two well placed shots. Honestly though, after having messed around with large caliber blowguns for a while now .22's and BB guns just aren't very compelling. They have less power, make much more noise and are more difficult to keep running under times of shortage. Bows are good as long as you can come up with extra bowstrings.

Silver Spoon | 10-29-2007 10:07 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? As I'm more and more convinced of the "low profile" strategy a concealable firearm is of high priority for me to obtain.

REV127 | 10-30-2007 12:05 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Makes sense. I always argue that a concealable handgun should be your first gun purchase if its for defensive purposes. The gun you have with you can save your life, the one left behind can't. If you do have to bug out the gun they don't see is much less likely to get confiscated.

learn2swim | 10-30-2007 01:54 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Walther P99 40 S&W Beretta CX4 Storm 40 S&W FNH self loading police shotgun Throw in a AK-103 too...:wink:

money matters | 11-02-2007 03:24 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? A .40 makes up for less mass with more speed. A .45acp is a proven manstopper and also a small game getter. A rabbit shot with a .45auto is not blown up, just neatly killed. A grouse shot with a .45acp is likewise not blown to bits, but is still edible. A bear, especially a lower 48 black bear, is very doable with a .45; maybe a bit dicey with the lighter, lesser diameter slug. There are all sorts of considerations. A working gun is most likely a revolver. Want to be able to fire almost squib loads, IE a .44 or .45 round ball over a tiny powder charge? Can't do it in a autoloader and get that autoloading function. Mostly, unless you own a variety of springs, buffers and other specialty items to enable the autoloader to function reliably at low velocity, you're limited to higher end velocity loads to enable func tion. Maybe you can get a Ruger SA in .38/40 with a .40S&W cylinder? That'd be pretty neat, but why reinvent the wheel? Best all-around working gun is likely the .44mag in a 4" barrel. Handloading turns it into a tool that can match the felt recoil of a .38sp and give it the oomph of the full-house .44mag. Pretty good range of power. Not THE MOST Powerful, not anymore; but enough to use confidently whatever the situation. Survival GUNS! There is the subject, a plural discussion; GUNS! We assume you will have more than one, more than just three. All you need to solve the problems you want to meet. Why the AK is not on the list: Shit ammo. Unless you are buying QUALITY, brass case, Boxer-primed, copper jacketed bullets, you are going with inferior ammunition. Figuring to be winning all the fire-fights you envision? Not for long. Fire-fights are for losers. A survivalist might have to defend against an attack, but he/she is not out on patrol. Are you a Militia member? Maybe your team determines AK is their thing? Well, Militia members are not survivalists. (No militia arguments here, please!) Not many bolt action 7.62x39 chambered rifles out there, are there? Why not? There are lots of Remington, Savage, Sako, Winchester, and other makes of .308Win and .223Rem bolt rifles; sporter or tactical models. Why no tactical bolt 7.62Ak? Because the ammo is junk, made only to function reliably. Is that enough? Not really. Not for survival consideration. Funny! The best performing match ammo in the .223 is put up (handloaded) in Win WCC or Lake City surplus cases. Maybe Lapua .308 cases are better than Lake City 7.62x51 in a tuned bolt rifle, at $1/case they ought to be; but many military competitors get by with Lake City. Ammo does make the difference. Maybe there is AK match? But where (other than PPC ctgs) are the 7.62x39 match rifles? Even Dragunovs are chambered for the the 7.62x54R case. Does the survivalist need an AK? Even if it is the superb short range blaster that won't stop? Not really. Because the ammo is not reloadable, due to berdan priming and steel cases; and the rifle cannot share ammunition with a working gun. The short-range aspect is also troubling. Realistically, the .308 is easily an 800yd effective weapon with a scopesight. An AK is a close range blaster. If you let yourself be engaged at close range, you have failed. If you are setting ambushes, maybe you want an AK? The two best all-around ctgs for the handloading survivalist are the .45acp and .308Win. Add the .44mag and .223 Rem for versatility. Maybe a .300Win Mag for Big Game and 1000+ yd sniping. Nice to share the same bullet diameters. If you choose to go Garand, you might not need the .300Win Mag since a .30-06 handles a 200-220 grain bullet very well. Maybe your Working .30-06 would incorporate an Ackley Improved chamber for .300WinMag approximate performance? As for .22LR, can you ever have "too many"? If you handload, not much use for a .22mag of any sort that I can see. At $7 per box for ammo? Load down your .223 and have a much better performer.

REV127 | 11-02-2007 08:28 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 809139) A working gun is most likely a revolver. Want to be able to fire almost squib loads, IE a .44 or .45 round ball over a tiny powder charge? Can't do it in a autoloader and get that autoloading function. Mostly, unless you own a variety of springs, buffers and other specialty items to enable the autoloader to function reliably at low velocity, you're limited to higher end velocity loads to enable func tion.
Aside from swapping springs, which you need to have spares of anyway because a gun is only as good as its springs, the trick with an auto firing reduced loads is to keep them either hot enough to still cycle or so mild they don't cycle. For instance my wife's P22 will stovepipe CCI CB caps every time but can be hand cycled just fine when using Aguila's Colibri. A DA revolver is faster than hand cycling. Quote:
Survival GUNS! There is the subject, a plural discussion; GUNS! We assume you will have more than one, more than just three. All you need to solve the problems you want to meet.
Sure, but it's only survival if it is well chosen. If it's just a bunch of superfluous guns then you have a collection, which is also fun. Quote:
Why the AK is not on the list: Shit ammo. Unless you are buying QUALITY, brass case, Boxer-primed, copper jacketed bullets, you are going with inferior ammunition. Figuring to be winning all the fire-fights you envision? Not for long. Fire-fights are for losers.
The steel cases are fine, but there is often some inconsistency in the powder loads of the Russian stuff and occasionally some weight/diameter issues in the bullet. Still, 2 to 4 MOA will get the job done out to 200 yards. Out on the plains that might be a problem. In the woods, swamp and cities that surround most people there isn't often visibility beyond 200 yards, if there's even that much. At that point it's a whole nother dynamic. Lots of stuff is cover against the 5.56x45 for instance, not much is cover against the 7.62x39. The bullets themselves are generally well designed, real meatgrinders. Not your grandpa's steel core M43. Any which way the central thesis is completely wrong. You can get brass cased new or surplus 7.62x39 as well as newly manufactured brass cases for reloading and .310 bullets. Steel cases shouldn't be reloaded but shhhh, don't tell anybody, you can get away with it and some foreign shooters do it regularly with a little care. Some people know how to reload primers, too, but without access to commonly available chemicals it is tricky. If you are the kind of person who won't blow their fingers off you probably already know how. If you don't already know how consider it one of God's mercies because you're probably the kind of person that would accidentally blow their fingers off. The stuff gets hot, can be tricky to control the reaction. Quote:
A survivalist might have to defend against an attack, but he/she is not out on patrol. Are you a Militia member? Maybe your team determines AK is their thing? Well, Militia members are not survivalists. (No militia arguments here, please!)
Uh, not patroling? In a survival situation? That's just weird. I don't know anybody who works more than an acre who doesn't regularly make the rounds to keep things running smoothly just for day to day operations. Add in security issues and its doubly important. Most who have farms and ranches in or bordering the woods also walk the woods. Militia has nothing to do with it. If you don't know what's happening on your property or who or what's been coming through or when you're way behind the survival curve. Quote:
Not many bolt action 7.62x39 chambered rifles out there, are there? Why not? There are lots of Remington, Savage, Sako, Winchester, and other makes of .308Win and .223Rem bolt rifles; sporter or tactical models. Why no tactical bolt 7.62Ak? Because the ammo is junk, made only to function reliably. Is that enough? Not really. Not for survival consideration.
Check out the CZ 527 Carbine, 5rd detachable box mag. I don't need one because I have an AK and a 5 round mag and that'll hunt but I do know a guy with the 527 Carbine in 7.62x39. It's a real tack driver, it'll turn in 1 to 1.5 MOA with off the shelf Russian steel case. YMMV. http://czusa.com/product_detail.php?id=15 Quote:
Maybe there is AK match? But where (other than PPC ctgs) are the 7.62x39 match rifles? Even Dragunovs are chambered for the the 7.62x54R case.
The Druganov is a support weapon roughly analogous to our 7.62x51 DM rifles. What is your point? What does match mean? Punching holes in paper? Defeating enemies? If you want an accurate AK try a Vepr, milled Arsenal or one of the Sako or Valmet series. Or reload/remanufacture factory ammo. Quote:
Realistically, the .308 is easily an 800yd effective weapon with a scopesight. An AK is a close range blaster.
Realistically I'd like to see you make an 800 yard shot against a moving point target in a dynamic environment. Or anybody. Quote:
If you let yourself be engaged at close range, you have failed. If you are setting ambushes, maybe you want an AK?
That's right guys. You may as well leave your CCW at home because if you get jumped at close range you have failed and may as well just die. Somebody breaks into your home in the middle of the night? Just shoot yourself at that point, you miserable failure! :confused_ma:

Squirrel Bait | 11-02-2007 11:36 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Gosh Rev, You have such a way with words!! SB

REV127 | 11-03-2007 11:22 AM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Bait (Post 809977) Gosh Rev, You have such a way with words!! SB
Some people are smooth as silk. Others are the iron claw in a velvet glove. I am a big rusty hammer. Oh well, at least you can be sure I'm not the kind of person who'll try to blow sunshine up yer butt.

money matters | 11-03-2007 02:13 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Rev, I think you miss the point, but I must say your argumentative spirit moves things even further away. But a nod as good as a wink (to a blind horse), eh? Got much of a clue what "patrolling" means? Most of the AK fanciers are Rambo-charlies; think this survival business is an excuse to play guns like when they were kids. Some of the sniper-fanciers think it is an excuse to buy Custom sniper rifles with US Optics or Schmidt & Bender scopes at $6k per, less mounts & rings. You failed to notice I did not say "...you can't reload the AK". But where you going to find/scrounge .310 bullets? Maybe you have a Berdan primer removal tool? They take minutes to use, unlike boxer tools, and often ruin the brass anyway. When I think of a precision tool, I often think of running steel against its precision-critical dimensions, NOT. Running shit-made, steel cased ammo in a precision chamber is going to ruin it very quickly. Yeah 2-4moa at 200 yds passes the Minute Of Ribcage test, but if you've selected your retreat site well, you may not ever fire a shot in anger... What d'ya do with your accuracy for shit stamped junker AK then? Cope and make do, I guess. Even a dull knife is better than a sharp stick for cutting... But why handicap yourself? Want to run that 1911 manually actuating the slide to shoot squib loads? Have at it! Rather doubtful that your sights will be any good, since the bullet will arc like a softball from the outfield to homeplate, but that is your call. Patrolling is not the same as keeping watch over your property. Duh, you are likely to do that. Are you also likley to take your trusty AK, (maybe you call her Ol' Blue?), plus field pack to go on a walkabout searching for "enemies" to destroy? Not if you have more brains than testosterone! But, who knows? You are correct, that a gun collection is not a selection of survival guns, not unless it was chosen to be such. Lots of people fancy the AK for function & reliability, and formerly inexpensive ammunition. Nothing there about accuracy, although the .308 is a mainstay in the Hunter Benchrest Competition, 1000yd Palma Competition, Service Rifle and High-Power Competitions and even Benchrest Competitions to lesser extent. The AR-10 semi-auto rifle is a proven platform for High-Power competition, whereas the FAL, SIG, Cetme, H-K 91 and M-14/M1a are not. The M-14/M1a is a proven Service Rifle platfom however. Yet, if M1a were as accurate as the AR-10 variants, it would be the Semi-Auto of choice in High-Power and it is not. The .308 is a reloaders paradise. .243Win, 260Rem, 7mm/08, .338Fed, .358Win are all very popular rounds. Maybe you want a Lever rifle for horseback use? Browning BLR, Savage 99, Wincheser 88 lever guns came in .243/.308/.358 chamberings; don't forget the Sako Lever! Reloading steel cases will ruin loading dies. Running steel cases will ruin your chamber; but maybe you have a dozen or two spare barrels and tools to install them? An AR-10 in .308 will likely run 8-10,000 rds before it gets so shot out that it approaches the accuracy level of a new AK. The AK with a goose-egg dimensioned chamber (steel cases rubbing on steel, with 50k psi of force bearing on the chamber each shot, remember?) is not going to remain a 2moa rifle for long, is it? I am sure that in a military deployed situation, fighting close-in, that the heavier bullet (over the .5.56) and dependability of the AK makes it a preferred weapon. But a survivalist will not be in those situations; not by deliberate choice. Soldiers wouldn't either, but that is what they are paid to do, eh? I can really see no logical reason to commit to the AK platform and the CZ 7.62x39 rifle in a survival context when .308 offers superior ballistics and greater choice in working guns, and diversity in ammunition and component choice beyond compare.

money matters | 11-03-2007 02:36 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Rusty Hammer indeed! More like rusty brainpan. Hey Rev! If you let yourself be surprised in your sleep, you are a dumb lazy puke who deserves what he/she gets. Never heard about "hardening"? Doors, not your arterial routing which leads to brain farts. If you let yourself be surprised in your sleep, you are just not keeping your eye on the ball. Think anyone with any brains is going to be sleeping at night? Got any dogs in your house? A security fenced yard? Rottweilers? I don't live in a keep or an underground bunker, but if you live in a locale with more than 2000 residents within a 50 mile radius, maybe you'll wish you had one.

REV127 | 11-03-2007 04:11 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 810581) You failed to notice I did not say "...you can't reload the AK". But where you going to find/scrounge .310 bullets? Maybe you have a Berdan primer removal tool? They take minutes to use, unlike boxer tools, and often ruin the brass anyway.
I failed to see any substance to your argument. Try www.midwayusa.com. Have a lathe and a mic. Most importantly, build your ammo stash now. Quote:
Yeah 2-4moa at 200 yds passes the Minute Of Ribcage test, but if you've selected your retreat site well, you may not ever fire a shot in anger... What d'ya do with your accuracy for shit stamped junker AK then?
Don't buy junk? If you have a decent 1mm stamped reciever AK just reload. 1.5mm and 1.6mm stamped recievers have better accuracy potential. Quote:
Patrolling is not the same as keeping watch over your property. Duh, you are likely to do that. Are you also likley to take your trusty AK, (maybe you call her Ol' Blue?), plus field pack to go on a walkabout searching for "enemies" to destroy? Not if you have more brains than testosterone! But, who knows?
Go ahead and let bad people get established in your area for all I care but it's a bad idea. As far as Ol' Blue and walk about go I have no idea what you're on about. You are correct, that a gun collection is not a selection of survival guns, not unless it was chosen to be such. Quote:
Lots of people fancy the AK for function & reliability, and formerly inexpensive ammunition.
Have you looked at the price of .308 or 5.56 lately? Inexpensive is relative. Quote:
Nothing there about accuracy, although the .308 is a mainstay in the Hunter Benchrest Competition, 1000yd Palma Competition, Service Rifle and High-Power Competitions and even Benchrest Competitions to lesser extent. The AR-10 semi-auto rifle is a proven platform for High-Power competition, whereas the FAL, SIG, Cetme, H-K 91 and M-14/M1a are not. The M-14/M1a is a proven Service Rifle platfom however. Yet, if M1a were as accurate as the AR-10 variants, it would be the Semi-Auto of choice in High-Power and it is not.
That tells me just about all I needed to hear. Quote:
Running steel cases will ruin your chamber; but maybe you have a dozen or two spare barrels and tools to install them?
Actually guns designed for it run fine on steel case. Quote:
An AR-10 in .308 will likely run 8-10,000 rds before it gets so shot out that it approaches the accuracy level of a new AK. The AK with a goose-egg dimensioned chamber (steel cases rubbing on steel, with 50k psi of force bearing on the chamber each shot, remember?) is not going to remain a 2moa rifle for long, is it?
Arsenal Bulgaria has an AK that they ran 300,000rds through(obviously not all at once) before they finally retired it. It was still running fine. Low pressure has its advantages. Quote:
I can really see no logical reason to commit to the AK platform and the CZ 7.62x39 rifle in a survival context when .308 offers superior ballistics and greater choice in working guns, and diversity in ammunition and component choice beyond compare.
I see no logical reason to have a bolt action in the same caliber as a semi auto you already have. Anyway I'm not trying to sell you, you're doing your own thing and that's fine. It's just the disinfo I have an issue with. 7.62x51/.308 are good rounds. I like'em, a lot. 7.62x54r is more powerful and cheaper and is also not classified as a pistol round by the BATF so you can get AP and steel core.

money matters | 11-04-2007 01:38 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Rev, If anyone is laying the disinfo on thick here it is you. Evidently, what I wrote about AR-10 rifles told you nothing. When the only tool you possess is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Get that one? A 150-200 yd effective AK round is a special purpose hammer. This is not a personal attack on your choices, rather a DISCUSSION about which arms are suitable for survival use. I think your decision to go "patrolling" shows a naive or Rambo mentality which will probably just get you killed. If your home territory is close-range forested jungle, maybe a 200 yd blaster is all you need. But if your environment has open elements the 200yd blaster lacks all-around utility. What kind of scopesight can you run on your AK? The absence of an integral picatinny rail is a real negative in my book. I prefer a scope to open sights for faster response. I like being able to interchange scopes between my rifles. The AR-15 & AR-10 are excellent for this purpose. The M1a with a good scope base is also capable to a lesser degree. Why choose an AK? I haven't. Gave a quick look at my Nosler 5th edition, (a reloading data manual); nothing on 7.62x39. Nosler makes no bullets for that caliber, or for the .303 enfield. Others may, but no hunting bullets. Have you ever deprimed and loaded at BERDAN primed case? I have. Primers were only available from very limited sources, and depriming the mil-surp .308 berdan primed case took several minutes. The Berdan primer pocket has two tiny flash holes, not one central hole like a Boxer Primed ctg. To deprime a Boxer primed case takes a second or two. Berdan takes 100 times longer. Maybe Lapua makes a Boxer primed 7.62x39? Maybe Norma? Rem/Win? maybe. But why limit yourself to a .30-30 performing weapon when you can load a .308Win much less expensively? Remember, just because a rifle will fire 300,000 times doesn't mean it is hitting its target; especially if the target is further away than some Pol-Pot Victim awaiting dispatch. I am sure there are many ways to accurize the AK, but none of these enhancements can overcome the limitations of the cartridge. With a .308Win you have access to the most developed accuracy bullet designs in the world. If you are shooting a .260Rem upper on your AR-10 or a 6.5Grendel or 6.5SPS on your Ar-15, you have access to the highest ballistic coefficient bullets in the world. The .260 IS a 1000yd capable round, at least in high-power matches the 6.5mm shooters get 10 shot groups at about .5moa. Pretty difficult to hit a mover at 500 yds, but that's why you might consider a target turret scope and/or mil-dot reticle. You sure aren't going to hit anyone at that range with your AK, unless you are lucky. Not like wind calculations matter in Minute Of Ribcage expectations at 200yds. No doubt that your AK is a great hammer. I own about 15 hammers. Tack hammers, claw, framing, blacksmith, gunsmith, mechanics hammers. One hammer just doesn't enable me to do the work I need to accomplish. While having an AK for defensive use beats having only a .30-30, relying on it for hunting limits you greatly. Hunting with a scoped AR-10 is very feasible. An AR-15 will certainly take deer. Nothing stopping the owner of one of these weapons from handloading Nosler Partition, Barnes, or other Premium Bullets in a variety of weights and styles. I dunno. I don't see much need for AP or Incendiary rounds in my area. It is my opinion that the guy who chooses to rely on the 7.62x39 has chosen to limit himself/herself with a special purpose weapon that performs almost on par with the .30-30Winchester. Buying a bolt-action rifle for the round is even more limiting. Own an AK if you so desire, but don't fool yourself into thinking that it is the equal of any American Service Cartridge; it is not. Denial of the truth will get you killed. All the accessories and accuracy mods in the world can't compensate for limited ballistic performance of the round. Speer #12 shows a 123gr soft point which they say is suitable for small deer. A 125gr fmj bullet at 2400fps w/ballistic coefficient of .256 drops 25 inches at 300yds when sighted in at 100yds. A 150gr match bullet from a .308Win sighted for 100yds drops 30" at 400 yds. Sighting for battlesight zero gives just that much more edge to the .308. When sighted for 250yds, the round has 41" of drop at 500yds. There are plenty of +20moa scope bases and risers which enable a .308 scoped rifle to utilize its inherent accuracy out to 800yds. With these setups, even a plainjane scope can use all of its vertical adjustment and do dual duty at longrange. Ultimately, we are not preparing for a company size assault on our homes, or to fulfill search & destroy foot missions. We survivalists need firearms which serve defense and food gathering purposes. Maybe we also own guns we just enjoy owning. I still see no need to own an AK or SKS.

REV127 | 11-04-2007 02:35 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 811781) When the only tool you possess is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Get that one? A 150-200 yd effective AK round is a special purpose hammer. This is not a personal attack on your choices, rather a DISCUSSION about which arms are suitable for survival use.
Sure, if hunting deer, piggies and badguys is special purpose. Just a few posts ago you were saying this thread was about having a toolbox of guns for different survival purposes. AK's are good for deer, piggies and badguys at ranges under 200 yards. Many current generation 7.62x39 bullets, the Russian tumblers, will do more dammage at 400 yards than .308fmj will against a soft target. Of course the .308 is a better cartridge for engaging point targets at that distance and you are not limited to fmj in .308, just something to be aware of. Quote:
I think your decision to go "patrolling" shows a naive or Rambo mentality which will probably just get you killed.
A powerful, authoritive statement about somebody you know nothing about. What's next, we compare kill records? Eh, whatever man. Should TSHTF I wish you nothing but good luck. Quote:
If your home territory is close-range forested jungle, maybe a 200 yd blaster is all you need. But if your environment has open elements the 200yd blaster lacks all-around utility.
A 7.62x39 Ak isn't the only rifle I own. I like 7.62x54r for situations that need a rifle with legs or extra punch. The availability of steelcore, AP and other specialty ammo is a major plus. Unfortunately the BATF-tards can't tell that .308/7.62x51 aren't really handgun calibers. Quote:
What kind of scopesight can you run on your AK? The absence of an integral picatinny rail is a real negative in my book. I prefer a scope to open sights for faster response. I like being able to interchange scopes between my rifles. The AR-15 & AR-10 are excellent for this purpose. The M1a with a good scope base is also capable to a lesser degree.
Glad you asked, and me too. You actually have a lot of options. Current generation AK's have rails on the left side of the reciever for special military optics that are designed to retain zero when removed and replaced. They also feature rangefinding functions. The Gen 3 Kobra is a very fast red dot type sight, the PKA series offers a little more precision and the PSO series gives you a military grade telescopic sight. http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/ You can also get other rails such as, www.ultimak.com and www.scoutscopes.com There are even side rail mounts that give you Weaver rails. Both work well, the Ultimak is nice because it gets the scope as low down as you can really get on this platform. There are Kobras that will work it too. The Scout Scopes system and the military side rail optics are a little better placed for rifle bayonet combat. Quote:
Have you ever deprimed and loaded at BERDAN primed case?
Yes, using a hydrolic method. Quote:
Gave a quick look at my Nosler 5th edition, (a reloading data manual); nothing on 7.62x39. Nosler makes no bullets for that caliber, or for the .303 enfield. Others may, but no hunting bullets. Maybe Lapua makes a Boxer primed 7.62x39? Maybe Norma? Rem/Win? maybe.
As I said before, check MidwayUSA for starters. http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe...**19785***9016*** http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe...2***670***9013*** The American made hunting bullets aren't as good against badguys as the Russian made bullets. The Russian and American stuff will both take game. Quote:
Remember, just because a rifle will fire 300,000 times doesn't mean it is hitting its target; especially if the target is further away than some Pol-Pot Victim awaiting dispatch. I am sure there are many ways to accurize the AK, but none of these enhancements can overcome the limitations of the cartridge.
Actually the 7.62x39 is an inherently stable, accurate cartridge and quality ammo fired from a bolt gun will show a high degree of accuracy. It isn't made for long range shooting, it is an intermediate rifle cartridge. And yes, AK's will continue to hit their targets after very high round counts, assuming it was a quality piece to begin with. A strong reciever and hammer forged barrel are good places to start. Quote:
While having an AK for defensive use beats having only a .30-30, relying on it for hunting limits you greatly. Hunting with a scoped AR-10 is very feasible. An AR-15 will certainly take deer. Nothing stopping the owner of one of these weapons from handloading Nosler Partition, Barnes, or other Premium Bullets in a variety of weights and styles.
No it doesn't, unless it's strictly a matter of hunting in open areas that have more than a few hundred yards of visibility which don't really exist where I and a great many others are. There is nothing within a thousand miles of me that requires a magnum rifle to hunt it. Unless you count some zoo animals. :D Deer and piggies drop readily to the 7.62x39. The Russians use their Saigas, Veprs and SKS to hunt all kinds of stuff. Quote:
I dunno. I don't see much need for AP or Incendiary rounds in my area.
Yeah, the paper targets at your shooting match would catch on fire, the berm might too, then you'd get kicked off the range. Quote:
It is my opinion that the guy who chooses to rely on the 7.62x39 has chosen to limit himself/herself with a special purpose weapon that performs almost on par with the .30-30Winchester. Buying a bolt-action rifle for the round is even more limiting.
My argument from the beginning was that it doesn't make sense to buy a bolt gun in the same caliber as an autoloader that offers similar performance you already have so I can't really argue against that. Quote:
Own an AK if you so desire, but don't fool yourself into thinking that it is the equal of any American Service Cartridge; it is not.
In real life it overmatches the 5.56x45 within the ranges the two cartridges are effective in. The 5.56 just can't bust through barriers or do as much dammage as the x39. .308's are great too if you don't mind the extra weight and bulk of the rifles and their ammo, the extra expense and giving up the availability of specialty loads that are available in other .30cals in its class. With fmj, HP's, SP's and other conventional loads the .308 is still a good performer. Quote:
All the accessories and accuracy mods in the world can't compensate for limited ballistic performance of the round. Speer #12 shows a 123gr soft point which they say is suitable for small deer. A 125gr fmj bullet at 2400fps w/ballistic coefficient of .256 drops 25 inches at 300yds when sighted in at 100yds. A 150gr match bullet from a .308Win sighted for 100yds drops 30" at 400 yds.
One is an intermediate cartridge, the other is a fullsize designed for longer range shooting. What startling revelation do you have for us next? .22 short shows a severe lack of power compared to .44mag? Quote:
There are plenty of +20moa scope bases and risers which enable a .308 scoped rifle to utilize its inherent accuracy out to 800yds. With these setups, even a plainjane scope can use all of its vertical adjustment and do dual duty at longrange.
So do they make a doodad that will allow you to see through the intervening 600 yards of forrest, hills and buildings? And another doodad to allow you to shoot through them? Quote:
I still see no need to own an AK or SKS.
Then don't get one. I'm not trying to sell you.

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money matters | 11-06-2007 03:16 AM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Sukhoi and Rev, You guys can Rambo on all you want. I got no issues with your choices or decisions. I am sure not interested in slugging it out sentence by sentence. That is just tedious and slow which is plain stupid and bogs down discussion. Every decision has pluses and minuses; can we concede that? If you aren't capable of lubricating your weapon then get that baby that will shoot 300000 times before seizing up. Yet, unless that barrel is processing soft lead slugs at .22lr velocities,(which it isn't, is it?), the barrel is shot out about 290,000 rounds before the gun falls apart. Know why machine guns, (not sub-guns or machine pistols), have quick-change barrels? Because they burn up and go out. If you choose to rely on a .30-30 class cartridge and figure all your defensive purposes will be at 200 yds or less; then your decision may work for you. If you have a caddy or gun bearing fella hauling your ordnance around with you, having an AK; like a wedge in a golf bag, makes good sense. But, to limit yourself to its limited accuracy and game ineffective cartridge is like agreeing to wrestle an opponent with one arm tied behind your back. Cost seems to be the overriding benefit of AK ownership. They are cheap and reliable. Great; if you are outfitting an army of jungle fighters, urban street sweepers, or terrorists. Money is always a concern to the "underdog". Cheap and Reliable does not equate with More Accurate, More Powerful, and More Versatile. The .50 BMG is not a survival gun. Nor a .338 Lapua. Lots of sporting rifles and cartridges aren't really working guns with commonly encountered ammunition and loading components. A .338 Edge or .300 RUM Ackley is not a survival gun either. Special purpose tools, maybe. Have all you want. I can't see a role for the AK in 7.62x39 for reasons already stated. Do I care if you do? No. I see the AK as a special purpose tool. One I choose not to own. I think long before you begin any "patrolling' activities, you'd better know your neighbors and be sure they know you at first glance. Most Americans don't know their neighbors. There seems to be great expectations among some gun owners that they will fight the good fight on their turf. I bet there are more "accidental" shootings of neighbors than there are "bad guys" ever rounded up in the TEOTWAKI scenarios many are working off of. If you determine the limitations of the cartridge are outweighed by the legendary reliability; then your conscience is clear. If you are looking for versatility, a weapon that can do more, and have greater range and game-taking capability, not to mention handloading flexibility and wider provision for resupply of ammunition; then one of the American Service Rifle cartridges should be your choice. Most likely the .308Win.

Silver Spoon | 11-06-2007 06:43 AM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 814702) Sukhoi and Rev, If you are looking for versatility, a weapon that can do more, and have greater range and game-taking capability, not to mention handloading flexibility and wider provision for resupply of ammunition; then one of the American Service Rifle cartridges should be your choice. Most likely the .308Win.
Here's what I chose. It's no tack driver but then again I'm no marksman (came second last in my last competition and the person who came last had a catridge jam in his barrel). I went for reliability. Iron sights were a must as was ease of care. My other "must have" was that it had to be a standard caliber (308 or 223) and a magazine. Our police state has advanced somewhat further down the gun grabbing path than you guys. Hope you "stick to your guns" and can keep them. http://www.viccityarms.com.au/webimages/prod3209.jpg Quote:
AIA M10-B1 7.62x51 (.308WIN). Based on the M1879 60 degree bolt lift, short bolt throw, and first detachable magazine. Evolved via continuing designer genes courtesy of battles fought on veldt, in snow, desert, and jungle to become the ultimate bolt action service rifle: The Lee Enfield. Now genetically modified with modern materials and calibre and you have the Australian International Arms! -Medium Profile sporter carbine -1/12 twist -Free Picatinny rail -Matte Blue Finish -10 round detachable steel magazine -Free sling swivels

REV127 | 11-06-2007 11:18 AM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? The Lee Enfield is a fine bolt action battle rifle, probably the best. I've been watching those AIA's since they were first anounced.

money matters | 11-06-2007 12:07 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Probably not the best. Probably one of the most serviceable, but with a 2 pc stock, it will never approach the mauser or springfield designs for accuracy. If we are into making each other "feel comfortable" with their choices, maybe its best for you? Looks like a great choice for a scout rifle, scabbard rifle or other utility carbine application. Scope bases? So many military bolt rifles have to be jury-rigged to mount a scope. Don't want a scope? Eliminates that concern. Scope not necessarily more accurate than iron sights. Crummy scope likely worse. Just puts all matters of concern onto one focal plane, makes for fewer variables, IF you have good sturdy eqpt. I'm sure that is a nice rifle. Personally, I don't see much value in rebarrelling and restoring old technology. A used Winchester 70 would likely not cost more than the Enfield pictured above. That is a platform that can be made to shoot accurately. A 10 shot magazine may benefit a sniper with a bolt gun, but the civilian marksman had better not be thinking a 10 shot bolt gun is a fight-winner. Even if the bolt-throw is fast and doesn't require you to dismount the gun from your cheekweld, a self-loader removes lots of action from the equation of your activity, enabling you to concentrate on sight picture and trigger release. The AR rifles with A4 flat-top mount scopes better than any other rifle of their kind. It matters, if you want to benefit from scope technology and shoot accurately at longrange.

Squirrel Bait | 11-06-2007 12:24 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Hey Silver Spoon, I assume you are down under somewhere, are you limited by law as to what types of rifles you can get. Since this is a bolt action is your purchase limited by law or did you go with this for simplicity/reliability. By the way it has real nice lines. SB

REV127 | 11-06-2007 12:56 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? I'm not trying to speak for Silver Spoon but those M10's are pretty sweet for anybody who wants a bolt action battle rifle. In addition to having a very fast action they have chrome lined bores and free floating barrels, they are drilled and tapped for a steel weaver rail. Most importantly the Lee Enfield rifles were designed from the start to be dependable under harsh field conditions. The Canadians are still using them up in their Arctic territories where the great majority of autoloaders simply won't work right and there are sniper versions of the No. 4's as well. They may have since been changed because of stupid gun laws but originally the 7.62x39 versions were made to take standard AK mags and the 7.62x51 versions were made to take M-14 mags. http://www.storm.ca/~aiarms/M10-intro.shtm

Silver Spoon | 11-06-2007 05:51 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Bait (Post 815479) Hey Silver Spoon, I assume you are down under somewhere, are you limited by law as to what types of rifles you can get. Since this is a bolt action is your purchase limited by law or did you go with this for simplicity/reliability. By the way it has real nice lines. SB
Limited by law. We can get pump action (rifles but not shotty's), lever actions and bolt actions. We are also limited to 10 round magazines. Lever and slide actions failed to meet my reliability and ease of care bench marks (as much as I want them). This rifle comes as good to go re: scopes. I chose this rifle as I wanted the Enfields legendary reliability in 308 (223 would be better for me but there you go). The Enfields in Oz are dime a dozen but they are all pretty well shot out as we love 'em down here. It's built for work rail hail or shine. Now if I lived where laws weren't so draconian? Well I would be like most people on here. I wouldn't know where to begin. FWIW I'm no commando. I'm just a family man trying to look out for his family. If I can I will ensure my family is nowhere near danger. If

Squirrel Bait | 11-06-2007 11:00 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Spoon (Post 816264) FWIW I'm no commando. I'm just a family man trying to look out for his family. If I can I will ensure my family is nowhere near danger. If
I understand that perfectly and that is an excellent philosophy. Better to sidestep danger than confront it directly with a big gun, but it's still nice to have a big gun. Even better if you rarely have to use it. Cheers SB

Infidel | 11-06-2007 11:05 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? 1 Attachment(s) Scorp. I gots your back

money matters | 11-06-2007 11:34 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Rev, What kind of silliness is this: "Bolt Action Battlerifle" junk? There hasn't been a bolt-action battle rifle deployed by any real Army since WWI. Bolt actions were issued, but only because that is all that the 2nd rate nations had in their arsenals. Think Britain didn't have a 2nd rate arsenal at the start of WWII? The Garand set the standard for the world. Self-loading rifles still do. What kind of stupidity inspired your remarks about Arctic conditions? Where did you read that? Some slick advertisement? I have worked outside during -20F temperatures, not the overnight low, the daily high. More like -50F at night. Machinery of most kinds is very tenuous. But use of synthetic lubes and the absence of grease is all a semi-auto needs to function. I am sure you know different... People have all sorts of biases from shit they read. They just can't figure out that the US Armed Forces deploy Remington 700 rifles, even though they have a staked in extractor (oh greatest of fears!), and continue to deploy AR-15 and SR-25 (Knights AR-10 variant) rifles even to Arctic and Sub-Arctic stationed troops. Couple of huge bases up near Fairbanks. Gets -80F up that way. They sure aren't deploying Springfield bolt rifles to the troopers up there. Damn bolt action rifles don't have anywhere as strong a bolt lockup as the AR rotary bolt system. Think a chrome-lined barrel is a great thing? Guess again! Nobody trying to shoot longrange accuracy wants a chromed barrel. If all you have to shoot with is an Enfield Mk3 or later, you can probably make do. Same with the Mosin-Nagant 7.62x59. They are rimmed cartridges designed before smokeless powder came along, but powerful and effective. If you were living 100mi up the Peace River somewhere above Edmonton, likely a .303 would be great. Hardly anyone lives there. It is hundreds of miles from civilization. A .303 and a .22lr (and maybe a handgun but Canada says its a No-No!), would do you handsomely. Set out lots of traps, build a cabin; make a self-sufficient life for yourself. People have done it. Nobody is going to do much meat gathering, (at least not unless they enjoy handicapping themselves and chancing the loss of game), by employing an AK or SKS in 7.62x39. There is just not a great clamor and hue of praise for the wonderful AK round in hunting circles.

Silver Spoon | 11-07-2007 01:08 AM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Did you miss the part about it being illegal for me to own a semi-auto rifle? I'm trying to do the best I can within the confines of the law of the land. Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 816932) Rev, What kind of silliness is this: "Bolt Action Battlerifle" junk? There hasn't been a bolt-action battle rifle deployed by any real Army since WWI. Bolt actions were issued, but only because that is all that the 2nd rate nations had in their arsenals. Think Britain didn't have a 2nd rate arsenal at the start of WWII? The Garand set the standard for the world. Self-loading rifles still do. What kind of stupidity inspired your remarks about Arctic conditions? Where did you read that? Some slick advertisement? I have worked outside during -20F temperatures, not the overnight low, the daily high. More like -50F at night. Machinery of most kinds is very tenuous. But use of synthetic lubes and the absence of grease is all a semi-auto needs to function. I am sure you know different... People have all sorts of biases from shit they read. They just can't figure out that the US Armed Forces deploy Remington 700 rifles, even though they have a staked in extractor (oh greatest of fears!), and continue to deploy AR-15 and SR-25 (Knights AR-10 variant) rifles even to Arctic and Sub-Arctic stationed troops. Couple of huge bases up near Fairbanks. Gets -80F up that way. They sure aren't deploying Springfield bolt rifles to the troopers up there. Damn bolt action rifles don't have anywhere as strong a bolt lockup as the AR rotary bolt system. Think a chrome-lined barrel is a great thing? Guess again! Nobody trying to shoot longrange accuracy wants a chromed barrel. If all you have to shoot with is an Enfield Mk3 or later, you can probably make do. Same with the Mosin-Nagant 7.62x59. They are rimmed cartridges designed before smokeless powder came along, but powerful and effective. If you were living 100mi up the Peace River somewhere above Edmonton, likely a .303 would be great. Hardly anyone lives there. It is hundreds of miles from civilization. A .303 and a .22lr (and maybe a handgun but Canada says its a No-No!), would do you handsomely. Set out lots of traps, build a cabin; make a self-sufficient life for yourself. People have done it. Nobody is going to do much meat gathering, (at least not unless they enjoy handicapping themselves and chancing the loss of game), by employing an AK or SKS in 7.62x39. There is just not a great clamor and hue of praise for the wonderful AK round in hunting circles.

REV127 | 11-07-2007 12:16 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Spoon (Post 817012) Did you miss the part about it being illegal for me to own a semi-auto rifle? I'm trying to do the best I can within the confines of the law of the land.
Don't worry about it. Your rifle is a very capable implement if properly employed. There's no way to put this delicately but you're responding to the criticism of someone who has time and again demonstrated to not have any real practical experience or perspective beyond paper... punching holes in it, reading others' scribblings on it... Here are some links to practical info that will help you get the most from your rifle under dire circumstances. http://www.fulton-armory.com/slinguse.htm http://web.elastic.org/~fche/mirrors...me.org/cuw.htm http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resour...asso/SASSO.asp

money matters | 11-07-2007 03:05 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? NO SUCH THING AS A BOLT ACTION BATTLE-RIFLE! You want somebody to hold your hand? Tell you, "It's all gonna be okay"? Sorry. It won't be me. The only thing a bolt rifle has going for it is potential accuracy. It is damn slow, requires you to remove your eye from your sight (unless you are Very Good with bolt flicking). Slow is not something that pertains to "battle-rifles". So you can't own a self-loader? (WTF is all this cry-baby shit about "..guess you missed my...). Do you just not have access to Savage, Winchester 70, Remington 700, or Sako/Tikka rifles in you land? You are stuck with buying that old Enfield, rehabbed and newly upgraded though it is? One more time: The Enfield is not a preferred platform. There are no pertinent reasons to select one unless it cost under $100. Which I doubt. We are not talking "Guns To Make Do With" here. We are not talking "Guns that make me feel like I'll be okay" here. Any firearm is better than a sharp stick, unless you are trying to spear an animal. WTF? Is it not obvious that the discussion is about firearms that meet certain criteria? What a bolt rifle has going for it is the potential of PRECISION. If you are going to be limited by law to a bolt gun, you must deploy it where it has its strength, the ability to deliver precise and accurate fire. It is not a Battle-Rifle. Not unless you are fighting in WWI or are in some English Homeguard unit. Being able to scope that rifle and having a new barrel mounted no matter how high the quality, does not turn it into anything more than an expensive blaster. The stock being 2-piece, or the action having the rear surround tang, is problematic to accuracy. If it was promotional to accuracy, others would use it; they don't. It is unique, uniquely British. Like comparing a Velocette 500cc single to a Kawasaki Ninja. Both are road machines, but there the resemblance ends. Chrome-lined barrels are NOT favored for accuracy, Enfield actions and stocks are NOT favored for accuracy, A bolt-action rifle, with a 10 rd magazine is mainly cumbersome, Sniper-rifles which use a bolt platform are not designed for rapid engagement, or battle-rifle duty. They are superbly accurate, capable of being accessorized and fill a Very Special purpose. Same with Semi-auto sniper systems, A bolt-actioned scout rifle is designed to compromise accuracy with utility, a very Special Purpose firearm, but NOT a battle-rifle. A Remington 700 production rifle will typically group 5 shots into 1" at 100yds out of the box. Tune the trigger and it will do better. Tailor the ammunition and it can do even better. Put a quality barrel and stock on it and your reliability of repeat accuracy increases by a factor of 10. I think a factory varmint rifle, from any of the gunmakers mentioned above, would be a more versatile choice. There is no reason to choose old technology over a heavy barreled hunting rifle designed from the factory to be "accurate". A "hunting rifle" might also be less susceptible to future legal restrictions than one with a detachable 10rd magazine. Who knows?

money matters | 11-09-2007 01:40 PM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Defensive Guns: Primarily for self or homestead defense with quick, accurate fire, fast reloads, ergonomically suitable, and rugged. Mil-Spec barreled for longest possible barrel life. Fast responding, mounts quickly, points instinctively, large capacity magazines of ten or more rds available. Semi-auto design is indicated. Obviously, you can hunt with a Defensive gun. All the more reason to own a scope mount system for any such rifle. Cleaning gear and mil-spec magazines very important. While Uncle Sam issues 4 section cleaning rods to the troops, you want to avoid sectional steel rods that are not coated. You also want a muzzle rod or breech inserted bore-guide to protect your barrel. Steel cleaning rods will cause accuracy to diminish if used often. Dewey makes a slip on rod guide for the M1a which slides over the flash hider. Worth the $10 or make your own. Dewey coated rods are the best in the industry. You must know how to lubricate your weapon, what grease (if any) to use, and where & how much to apply. 99% of jams come from poor maintenance issues. The rest, ammunition. Don't let your ammo grunge up, get dirty, or become oily. Magazines need taught springs, feed lips that aren't bent, and followers that sit right in the mag. Working Guns: Chiefly these are your daily carry when on your property, or special situation and hunting weapons. They will be lighter to carry and may be of a reduced caliber. Mostly these will fire handloaded ammunition if you handload, and you really, really should. The purpose of these firearms is to hit your target without ruining meat and with just enough power to do the job. A .177 pneumatic pellet gun can be a working gun vital for small game gathering. Always a good idea to acquire defense weapons first, then working guns chambered for the defense cartridges you've chosen. Then other working guns you desire to own. Garand type actions: M1a in .308 & Mini 14 in .223 AR type: AR-15 in .223 and AR-10 in .308 Above are several defensive weapons with excellent working gun ctgs. Both still in USA inventory and available in surplus markets. A varmint rifle in each caliber if combined with handloading capability would enable anyone to cover 90% of their rifle basics. A .300 Win mag if you wish for elk, moose and large bear; plus if you choose a Sendero, could serve as longrange anti-sniper weapon. .45acp is a superb small game cartridge, esp if handloaded. Add a Ciener or Colt conversion kit (if you have a 1911 pistol) and a variety of handloaded ammunition, and your bases are covered. .44 magnum is the most versatile working gun for the handloader. Bigger bullet is better than smaller on med-lg game because small bullet ctgs must rely on velocity to generate their kinetic energy; therefore the .357 ctgs will do more damage to meat and be harder to control than a moderate loaded .44mag. Handloaded .38spl with semi-wadcutter bullets is cheaper to shoot than a .22WinMag and more devastating to game. Might be a good reason to own one? Any handgun is a weapon of opportunity, not choice. So, if your rifle is elsewhere, your handgun has to get that deer that bolts out of the woods suddenly, or that moose that rises up out of what you thought was a snowpile. The primary working handgun is the revolver. Primary working rifle is the bolt action sporter or tactical rifle. A stainless fluted Rem 700 with H-S Precision stock is an accuracy machine. Lightweight (maybe 1/2 lb heavier than a BDL sporter), as easy to carry but potentially way more accurate and able to really shine at longrange. When game are almost nonexistent or spooked a longrange shot maybe all you will be afforded. Stainless is worth paying for. Duracoat may be worth paying for. Get a pillar-bedded stock for your working rifles and you can dismantle them w/o fear of altering your scope zero on reassembly. Use an inch lb torque wrench and be even more certain. M1 garand is a very serviceable and reliable defense rifle. In California or Canada, consider one. Tanker garand is very handy. There are gunsmiths doing .308 garand conversions, but the .30-06 is more powerful; and if 8 shots is all you will get, maybe you want the extra power? Garand is not easily scoped. .22lr, .45acp, .44magnum, .223Rem & .308Win will form the backbone of any survival oriented weapons group.

money matters | 12-26-2007 04:44 AM
Re: Working Guns & Defensive Guns: Anyone Read Survival Guns? Bump for some clarity and topicality referencing "survivalism" and survival guns.

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