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Bill843 | 10-27-2008 07:13 AM
Which $400 generator? I been thinking about buying a generator lately. I have a budget of $300-$400 or so, and want something that is portable (weighs <150 lbs) so those two factors pretty much rules out any diesel. I thought for a while about going with something that used a name-brand engine, but then, my cheap Chinese-made Sears mower is still going just fine after ~9 years now. It's had one minor part failure (the carb priming bulb cracked, a $2 part) and is kinda hard to start, but then I've not ever pulled the carb apart and hosed it with cleaner, either. .... So I am having a hard time seeing how a more-expensive name-brand engine would really do much better here, particularly since my main failure was due to the crap that passes for gasoline these days. Any engine I got would be running off the same gas. If I assume that the engine brand doesn't matter much, then that leaves the other generator end--but all those are made in China too now! The ad copy is less specific about the generator than they are about the engine (if they use a brand-name engine, they usually will tell you so).... Is there anything that is a particularly good deal? All the Chinese ones I've seen seem to hit right around $100 per 1000 watts. Are there any not-obvious features I should look for? I notice that a lot of generators feature a round 3-prong twist-lock socket; what is this commonly used for? I am guessing a refrigerator maybe? -end-

TechGuy | 10-27-2008 08:50 AM
Re: Which $400 generator? The chinese made are ok, my recent searches found virtually no generator heads on portable units still made in the usa. Winco is one of the few that still manufacture in the US. Just do a quick search for PARTS. This is the big unknown and problem area with the chinese made units.

G.Gordon | 10-29-2008 03:37 PM
Re: Which $400 generator? For about $400, Lowes sells a Troy-built generator with a Briggs & Stratton engine. Rated at 3250 watts, 4 gallon capacity, 130 pounds. Probably the best buy available for the money. This model appears identical to a Snapper model with the same specs that sells for cosiderably more money. Bought one for my mom and found we can run her furnace, fridge, tv, lights in several rooms, all at the same time. I have no idea where the generator head is from, but it appears well made and has a large surge capacity, about 4500 watts if i remember correctly.

TTAZZMAN | 10-29-2008 04:33 PM
Re: Which $400 generator? the first question you should ask/answer when considering a generator is what will you HAFTA run on it and how long small gasoline air cooled chinese engined generators tend to fail quickly if they are going to(within the first 10hrs) the most common failure is lack of keeping the oil clean, these small engines dont have oil filters and normally less than one quart of oil, and run continuesly, so any flooding or dirt in the oil can seriously shortn the life or create a quick failure, so you want to buy one...use it a bit...break it in...etc right away while under warrenty ......the second most common failure is in the carburetor area IE seals go bad...fuel gets left in them...etc...i always run my gennys on stabalized fuel and run the carb dry when i am done. the twist recepticals are to keep the plug from vibrating out and or arcing and they can be in both 220 and 110v also unless you get a inverter style generator all of these small gas engine ginnys run full blast all the time 3600rpms. which contribues to noise, wear and tear, fuel ussage

Bill843 | 10-30-2008 04:28 AM
Re: Which $400 generator? One thing I have noticed a lot with the generic generators sold on Amazon is that lots of people see shipping damage. Buying from someplace local avoids that issue (because you can unbox it there and inspect it before leaving), and also usually skates around the shipping costs problem as well.... -I've found a few of what seemed to be good online deals, but after factoring in the $100-$150 for shipping, they were only average. Quote:
the first question you should ask/answer when considering a generator is what will you HAFTA run on it and how long
Not a lot really.... the refrigerator, a light or two, and maybe a box fan in the summer. Other little things like running a small radio and charging cellphones won't matter much either way. I'll have a propane heater for heat and I have a gas stove as it is, but also have a propane camp stove also should the gas utility be down. Quote:
...the most common failure is lack of keeping the oil clean, these small engines dont have oil filters and normally less than one quart of oil, and run continuesly, so any flooding or dirt in the oil can seriously shortn the life or create a quick failure, ...
I have pondered this matter of oil changes. I would guess that if you wanted the thing to last a long time, you would need to be pretty aggressive with the oil changes. I would guess the first one would be at around 24 hours, and from then on, maybe every 5 to 7 days of run time. That seems expensive if you're imagining the 3 to 5 quarts a car engine needs, but these little 4-6hp lawnmower engines usually only need about a half to three-quarters of a quart per change. Other small engines I've read the manuals of said (after a shorter break-in period) to change the oil every 50-75 hours. Seven days would be 336 hours but the heat of the engine running would keep the fuel and moisture from condensing into the oil. I'd probably run it through at least two short "break-in periods" (30 mins and two hours) plus the longer break-in period the manual says to make sure all the metal was out of the engine. I don't think I'd go so far as to break the engine down to clean it, but I know people that are into the Chinese scooters and they will do that to a new engine. The designs are acceptable but the quality of assembly is often pretty bad. It's not unusual to find casting sand stuck in the crevices of these engines. Quote:
..the second most common failure is in the carburetor area IE seals go bad...fuel gets left in them...etc...i always run my gennys on stabalized fuel and run the carb dry when i am done.
I noticed this with the mower too--leaving fuel sitting in the tank makes it harder to start. Quote:
...also unless you get a inverter style generator all of these small gas engine ginnys run full blast all the time 3600rpms. which contribues to noise, wear and tear, fuel ussage...
I saw that some of the "contractor models" had an automatic idle feature, where they'd run at a speed that was somewhat proportional to the load on them. In particular, they idle down really slow when there's no load. It sounds like a great feature, but there's two problems with those generators: first is that they cost much more, easily 3-4X as much as the cheap Chinese jobs. And second is that the "contractor" generators tend to have pretty small fuel tanks, one gallon or less is typical, where an emergency generator will often hold 4+ gallons. -end-

fl57caveman | 10-30-2008 06:28 AM
Re: Which $400 generator? troybilt, 5500 watts running, briggs & stratton eng, change oil after the 1st 10-15 hrs, and then, every 25-30 hrs with a 30wt oil, napa has good oil. use fuel stabilizer, and shut gas off, letting engine run dry when you put it up for a while, but start it once or twice a month and let it run 5-10 minutes google wattage useage of household uses, or something close to that, find a wattage calculater, will tell you what appliances need for running, with a 5500, it is a little more than you specified, but it will b strong enough to run a water heater or outdoor well pump, as long as you turn off other uses, a water heater will pull about 4000 watts. then, when you dont need the heavy useage items, turn those breakers off, and it will run most other appliances without a problem, provided you don't turn on central air, use fans if hot, or window air conditioners for cooling the pronged outlets are for 220, you can disconnect your power meter, and wire your generator directly into house, then turn off breakers you don't need. turn generator off while refueling, in other words, READ the manual & follow instructions carefully, this is not anything to get casual about. biggest killer in hurricane season in fl, is using generators in a garage, carbon monoxide deaths all the time happen, don't get stupid with it, or wake up dead. WARNING: you must be very careful not to feed back into the power lines, a lineman could get killed, you must unconnect your meter from power line if you wire the generator up to the house, this is only for extended outages, do not do this without a experienced person to show you how. i have 2 of those, saved our butts after hurricane ivan, we were 14 days without power. worth every penny.. if you can't afford a 5500, the lowest i would buy is 3250 watts, anything lower, you are wasting $

StackerKen | 10-30-2008 06:55 AM
Re: Which $400 generator? thats the one I have, Troy Built, electric start

TTAZZMAN | 10-30-2008 05:37 PM
Re: Which $400 generator? I own a construction company we have tried and own many different styles and types of gennys some for daily use ...some for intermitant use.. for what your talking about if it were me i would try to purchase one similar to the link below...in the 4-500$ range http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...%3D8%26ps%3D33 i have one similar to this ...its cheaply built...its extremely quiet....i runs a lllllooooooooong time on fuel....it speed is load dependant...the more load the faster...the lower the load the slower... I hooked up one to a 5 gal boat tank and ran a remote cabin for 3+ days and still had fuel left...similar to what your describing ...fridge..lights..tv..no major loads...etc the weakness i have found on this style unit is that it struggles to start and run heavy motor loads such as a circular saw or compressor and i have no idea where to find parts if a person needs them so i consider it a throw away, but i have run one hundreds of hours now without it failing. the difference in sound is amazing ( i would say 1/2-1/3 the noise) the difference on fuel ussage is amazing( i would guess 1/4-1/5 the fuel ussage) we liked this small inverter generator so much we forked out the big cash to get a couple of big 6kw+ units with 240v outlets we still used the bare frame "troybuilt" style gennys for construction due to the use and abuse they see hope these opinions help

Bill843 | 10-31-2008 08:37 AM
Re: Which $400 generator? Quote:
Originally Posted by TTAZZMAN (Post 1387913) ...the weakness i have found on this style unit is that it struggles to start and run heavy motor loads such as a circular saw or compressor...
Somebody in another thread mentioned the possibility of buying two smaller gens instead of one big one. The problem I'd have with that is if you end up having one electrical item that draws too much for one generator, you're S.O.L. because even though (whatever you're trying to run) may draw less than both generators can put out, with all the cheap Chinese jobs there doesn't seem to be any kit for bridging them. There's no easy way you can utilize all the power from two of these generators to run one item. So far the only kit I've seen that can do that is the one sold for the smaller Honda generators. From what I've read, none of the different places selling this kit claimed it could be used with anything other than the little Hondas. Quote:
Originally Posted by TTAZZMAN (Post 1387913) ... and i have no idea where to find parts if a person needs them so i consider it a throw away, but i have run one hundreds of hours now without it failing. ...
I decided to go up to a ~5000 watt. It's more than I can imagine needing really--but then again, it likely won't ever be strained much, either. Lowes has a 5000/8000W Briggs & Stratton engined open-frame one for about $700, but Sears sells basically the same thing under their Craftsman name for $730--and the Sears one includes a 25ft 115v twist-lock extension cord that would normally cost way more than $30. With local pickup there's no delivery charge, and I can inspect it before leaving the store. The main reason I decided though,,,, was parts availability. I don't think there's probably much difference with the Briggs engine and the Chinese generics, except when it comes to trying to buy replacement parts. That still doesn't cover the generator end, but Sears already has parts & service stores for the stuff they sell. -end-

Montecristo | 10-31-2008 09:51 AM
Re: Which $400 generator? Good information in this thread. Thanks for the education.

JD4x4 | 10-31-2008 10:03 AM
Re: Which $400 generator? I've got a 4000 watt gas powered, and it's just enough to do my two refrigerators (one big, one small), lights (mostly compact flourescents), and a TV or two. But that's it's max, and it sucks gas big-time. About 4 gals a day! If I were to do it over, I'd get a 5k watt min. and investigate either natural gas/propane or diesel power for efficiency.

JD4x4 | 10-31-2008 10:17 AM
Re: Which $400 generator? Holy cr*p! I just saw a few of the links to these digital thingies. My gen is about 9 years old... guess I took my eyes off the technology for too long!!

damoc | 10-31-2008 10:21 AM
Re: Which $400 generator? Quote:
Originally Posted by JD4x4 (Post 1389041) I've got a 4000 watt gas powered, and it's just enough to do my two refrigerators (one big, one small), lights (mostly compact flourescents), and a TV or two. But that's it's max, and it sucks gas big-time. About 4 gals a day! If I were to do it over, I'd get a 5k watt min. and investigate either natural gas/propane or diesel power for efficiency.
cant help but think that there is something wrong with a 4 kw gennie that can barely run a couple of refrgerators some lights and tv is the 4 kw a max rating what is the run rating what hp motor has it got? i think running a gennie all day to keep your refridgerators running is a waste of energy if we are talking about survival prep. think about battery storage and inverters to run fridge using the gennie to charge once or twice a day or think about just running fridge intermitently to stay cool or closing down the fridges asap by using the food first. i feel your fuel consumtion is on the high side unless you are running 24/7 just some ideas

JD4x4 | 10-31-2008 10:44 AM
Re: Which $400 generator? Quote:
Originally Posted by damoc (Post 1389056) cant help but think that there is something wrong with a 4 kw gennie that can barely run a couple of refrgerators some lights and tv is the 4 kw a max rating what is the run rating what hp motor has it got? i think running a gennie all day to keep your refridgerators running is a waste of energy if we are talking about survival prep. think about battery storage and inverters to run fridge using the gennie to charge once or twice a day or think about just running fridge intermitently to stay cool or closing down the fridges asap by using the food first. just some ideas
No, it's 4k cont./5k or so surge, and you're right about using it differently for survival prep. I used to run it all day (yes-24/7) when we had lots of winter ice problems/power outages for multiple days. I think the motor is a 5hp Tecumseh.. might be 8 or something. The staggered surge from two 'fridges starting & running plus misc loads never technically maxed it out, just that it never spent much time at a low enough idle to be very fuel-efficient. It gets to be a pain filling a 7 gallon tank, and practical use cost calculations weren't as much a consideration when fuel was reasonably cheap, and I certainly wasn't considering storing quantities of fuel or the ease of finding it!

JD4x4 | 10-31-2008 11:02 AM
Re: Which $400 generator? Now that I'm thinking about this again, I always thought that I should investigate efficiency vs. engine size/hp vs. average load/speed. There must be an efficiency curve for that. Also, I know for sure that the age & condition of your loads make a big difference. We replaced the smaller 'fridge a few years ago and you can tell the difference the new one makes in the load on the generator... much easier on it. Never actually measured the wattage though.

TTAZZMAN | 10-31-2008 03:10 PM
Re: Which $400 generator? Quote:
Originally Posted by JD4x4 (Post 1389054) Holy cr*p! I just saw a few of the links to these digital thingies. My gen is about 9 years old... guess I took my eyes off the technology for too long!!
they definitely have their place and do somethings much better than standard gennies

TTAZZMAN | 10-31-2008 03:33 PM
Re: Which $400 generator? Quote:
Originally Posted by JD4x4 (Post 1389096) No, it's 4k cont./5k or so surge, and you're right about using it differently for survival prep. I used to run it all day (yes-24/7) when we had lots of winter ice problems/power outages for multiple days. I think the motor is a 5hp Tecumseh.. might be 8 or something. The staggered surge from two 'fridges starting & running plus misc loads never technically maxed it out, just that it never spent much time at a low enough idle to be very fuel-efficient. It gets to be a pain filling a 7 gallon tank, and practical use cost calculations weren't as much a consideration when fuel was reasonably cheap, and I certainly wasn't considering storing quantities of fuel or the ease of finding it!
last winter we had a couple of ice storms here and we had all of our gennies out to friends and relatives I hardwired in one of the suitcase inverter gennies into my moms house and the performance is as follows (2700w) ran 5 days 24/5 non-stop (used a remote fuel tank)(didnt have to shut off to refill) used less than 20gal fuel what i let her run on it 500w +/- lighting a typical 10yr old side by side refrigerator a typical 10yr old deep freeze a bar size refrigerator a 110v central heat gas furnace (prox 100k btu)(unknown fan HP) a tv-cablebox-dvd setup the only time the gennie ever reved up and sounded like it was working was when the Furnace fan motor would start-up we had other locations with standard gennies we were using .5-1 gal of fuel a hour it was a real pain in the azz to keep them running fuel wize so it was a much more intermitant running situation fuel ussage became very important because during the ice storms the gas stations had no power also so it was hard to get fuel, so fuel ussage and fuel storage can be very important

Fullpower | 10-31-2008 03:34 PM
Re: Which $400 generator? If you are considering BACKUP power, Why not use a stack of batteries and a good heavy duty inverter? I run my house with an "OUTBACK" brand inverter, built in Bellevue Washington. The inverter is conservatively rated at 2000 watts, but will run microwave oven, Refrigerator, deep freezer, 2 computers, clothes washer, Deep well pump, and every light in the house that the kids turn on.... SIMULTANEOUS. And it will run a skill saw and other power tools just fine. I have seen this inverter run 6 kilowatts for a few minutes, it has been in continuous use since 2003 and has never shut down for any reason.

Bill843 | 10-31-2008 03:55 PM
Re: Which $400 generator? Quote:
Originally Posted by JD4x4 (Post 1389126) Now that I'm thinking about this again, I always thought that I should investigate efficiency vs. engine size/hp vs. average load/speed. There must be an efficiency curve for that. ...
I looked around for any kind of engine reviews and couldn't find any--except for the generally-held opinion that the diesels are more efficient than the gas engines. There is a cost difference however: Honda Horizontal OHC Engine � 160cc, GC Series, 5HP, Ship Wt. 30.0 lbs = $220. Hatz Horizintal Shaft Diesel Engine � 4.6 HP, Ship Wt. 75.0 lbs = $1400. (note that you can find new generic Chinese horizintal/~5hp engines for around $100) You won't see a great reduction in operating noise from the smallest diesels, because they're still all 3600 RPM--just like the gas engines are. Also as you can see from the shipping weights, anything with a diesel is going to a LOT less portable than the same generator with a gas engine (if that level of portability is a factor in your decision). I didn't really see the 1800-RPM diesel engines until I was looking at the medium-size (10KW+) generators, or the Listeroids. But unless you build them on a trailer (or they already come built onto one) these things pretty much fail the portability test. Also I see that a lot of people find diesel fuel to be better to store, but I don't know that it really matters much in practical terms. By far most of the vehicle fuel distributed now is gasoline, and if there is any extended severe shortage of gasoline then any running generator would attract the curiosity of lots of people with idle hands and sticky fingers anyway. ...... I can see having a few weeks' worth of generator fuel but beyond that I don't see the practicality. You might as well collect welding cylinders and fill them with air in case the Earth's atmosphere suddenly vanishes. -end-

Bill843 | 10-31-2008 04:07 PM
Re: Which $400 generator? Quote:
Originally Posted by Fullpower (Post 1389580) If you are considering BACKUP power, Why not use a stack of batteries and a good heavy duty inverter?...
Not portable. Another possible concern is that ideally you want a "home" for the batteries that is separate from the home that you live in, but also were it's pretty much guaranteed that they'll never freeze. ....Some battery types are "sealed", I know that--and normally they stay sealed--but if anything bad happens and they decide to "un-seal" themselves, you do not want to risk breathing the stuff that comes out. Other than those points, a battery system on a switching inverter can be nice. Anything that can easily run the regular house electrical setup would be easiest--but in my case I'm selling my house (eventually) so I can't go chopping into the service panel, because I know it's got to pass inspection. For what I need at the moment, a portable gen and propane heater is better. During power outages the natural gas is still on--but a big risk of where I am is earthquakes, which could easily kill the underground natural gas lines for a long time. -end-

TTAZZMAN | 10-31-2008 04:24 PM
Re: Which $400 generator? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill843 (Post 1389661) Not portable. Another possible concern is that ideally you want a "home" for the batteries that is separate from the home that you live in, but also were it's pretty much guaranteed that they'll never freeze. ....Some battery types are "sealed", I know that--and normally they stay sealed--but if anything bad happens and they decide to "un-seal" themselves, you do not want to risk breathing the stuff that comes out. Other than those points, a battery system on a switching inverter can be nice. Anything that can easily run the regular house electrical setup would be easiest--but in my case I'm selling my house (eventually) so I can't go chopping into the service panel, because I know it's got to pass inspection. For what I need at the moment, a portable gen and propane heater is better. During power outages the natural gas is still on--but a big risk of where I am is earthquakes, which could easily kill the underground natural gas lines for a long time. -end-
i would put my batterys in a sealed box vented to the exteriour, wouldnt want the hydrogen gas to build up at all other than portability the other issue with a battery/inverter system is the COST....a good 72hr system and batterys runs in the thousands that being said i will probably build one of these systems into my next home and include solar and wind charging and a specific concrete room and gennie attachment FULLPOWER.....how much $ do you have in your system? .....we started out talking 4-500$ for a gennie here

Bill843 | 10-31-2008 04:53 PM
Re: Which $400 generator? FYI - the Craftsman generator I got (Sears item# 07132561000) did come with a 25-ft extension cord, but it is not a twist-lock. It is a Siamese-type that is supposed to go into the #1-#2 (left upper & lower) 110v sockets, and has four receptacles on the opposite end. I did not have time to play with it much today except for getting the wheels on, so I don't know about any other points of interest yet....... other than that I had to lift it out of the truck by myself at home, it weighs 156 lbs dry and I'm damn glad I didn't buy a 200-lb generator. -end-

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