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Catwagon | 03-09-2009 10:46 PM
Storing flour products My gf wants to know and I had no idea what to tell her so I thought I'd ask you folks. She wants to know which lasts longer when vacuum sealed, self rising or plain flour? How about corn meal? Also, can you vacuum seal these items and then hard freeze them to completely kill any bugs that might be present? What's the best way to preserve sugar? tia, Steve

CrufflerJJ | 03-10-2009 07:57 AM
Re: Storing flour products Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwagon (Post 1616499) My gf wants to know and I had no idea what to tell her so I thought I'd ask you folks. She wants to know which lasts longer when vacuum sealed, self rising or plain flour? How about corn meal? Also, can you vacuum seal these items and then hard freeze them to completely kill any bugs that might be present? What's the best way to preserve sugar? tia, Steve
Self rising stuff contains baking powder, which would be the limiting factor on shelf life. If vacuum packed, it should last a long time. I would probably go with non-rising flour or corn meal, vacuum pack it with oxygen absorbers, then it will last for years. From what I've read online, the LDS church no longer recommends the use of oxygen absorbers with dry foods containing baking powder (apparently, the two could react with each other). That's why I'd use non-rising flour/corn meal. Yes, freezing the vacuum packed food for a week or two at LOW temperatures will help kill off any buggies. To preserve sugar, it's not necessary to vacuum pack it. Just put it in a sealed plastic bag in a plastic pail, or store it in mason jars. No need for oxygen absorbers.

maddyn99 | 03-10-2009 01:45 PM
Re: Storing flour products It depends on what you consider long term. Milled flour is good no more than a few years no matter how its sealed. I think if your going to take the time, energy and expense of storing for the long term you might as well store whole wheat. Stored in a mylar bag, with 02 you can expect 30+ years. While you do need a grain mill its still way way cheaper than having to replace your preps every few years. If your storing in mylar bags with o2 packs you don't need to freeze but it wont hurt it either. Bugs cant live with out o2. As far as powder type of ingredients such as salt, sugar, baking powder and Soda I would recommend 1/2 gallon mason jars. You don't need o2 packs with any of those and you can use your vacuum sealer with the mason jar attachment to get rid of most of the air. Salt and sugar will last indefinitely stored this way. I'm not sure about soda and powder of the top of my head, but I would guess 20+ years. Storing Wheat Long Term

Merlin | 03-10-2009 02:34 PM
Re: Storing flour products I went looking for references about storing white flour. Apparently, at cool temperatures (70 degrees F or less) and sealed with O2 absorbers, all purpose flour can last as long as 15 years. http://survivalacres.com/information/shelflife.html At least I hope that's true because I have 5 pounds stored that way in 1/2 gallon Ball jars. P.S. When using O2 absorbers, you don't need to vacuum seal the jars. The O2 absorbers do that for you. Since air is roughly 20% oxygen and 80% nitrogen (there are trace amounts of other gases), when you remove the oxygen, you'll have a very nice vacuum seal and the remaining nitrogen will be inert in so far as the flour is concerned.

chad | 03-10-2009 02:48 PM
Re: Storing flour products Quote:
Originally Posted by CrufflerJJ (Post 1616926) Self rising stuff contains baking powder, which would be the limiting factor on shelf life. If vacuum packed, it should last a long time. I would probably go with non-rising flour or corn meal, vacuum pack it with oxygen absorbers, then it will last for years. From what I've read online, the LDS church no longer recommends the use of oxygen absorbers with dry foods containing baking powder (apparently, the two could react with each other). That's why I'd use non-rising flour/corn meal. Yes, freezing the vacuum packed food for a week or two at LOW temperatures will help kill off any buggies. To preserve sugar, it's not necessary to vacuum pack it. Just put it in a sealed plastic bag in a plastic pail, or store it in mason jars. No need for oxygen absorbers.
i have about 20 pounds of pancake batter and ready baking mixed jarred with oxy absorbers. what does this interaction do? make it dangerous to eat?

JJ_ | 03-10-2009 02:56 PM
Re: Storing flour products Quote:
Originally Posted by chad (Post 1617568) i have about 20 pounds of pancake batter and ready baking mixed jarred with oxy absorbers. what does this interaction do? make it dangerous to eat?
I am curious about this as well.

chad | 03-10-2009 03:00 PM
Re: Storing flour products i just checked in to it. apparently the food is safe to eat, it just renders the baking soda and/or baking powder inert. so when you go to use it, you'll have to add those 2 agents, as it's become essentially plain flour.

JJ_ | 03-10-2009 03:05 PM
Re: Storing flour products Quote:
Originally Posted by chad (Post 1617585) i just checked in to it. apparently the food is safe to eat, it just renders the baking soda and/or baking powder inert. so when you go to use it, you'll have to add those 2 agents, as it's become essentially plain flour.
cool - thanks for looking / sharing

CrufflerJJ | 03-10-2009 03:23 PM
Re: Storing flour products Quote:
Originally Posted by chad (Post 1617568) i have about 20 pounds of pancake batter and ready baking mixed jarred with oxy absorbers. what does this interaction do? make it dangerous to eat?
Not just dangerous to eat, but also highly corrosive to PMs within a 1 mile radius. If you'd send me your PMs, I'd gladly store them for safekeeping.:s9: I don't think it would be dangerous at all. The only concern might be that the oxy absorbers react with baking powder over time. Hopefully, this would occur after all oxygen in the container has been absorbed (preventing stuff from becoming rancid). It might just result in the baking mixes not rising when baked. You might need to add some extra baking powder when you open the containers. If you've got them in jars, it might be even easier to tell if there's a problem. Just see if the jar lid has popped up (from gas being generated). I think I first saw mention of the problem of oxy absorbers reacting with baking powder on a LDS website somewhere. I think they used to pack pancake mix with oxy absorbers, but stopped doing this since things were apparently reacting. Googling "oxygen absorber" "baking powder" gave this hit: http://www.waltonfeed.com/old/grain/life.html About 40% of the way down that document, it says : Bulging cans: Some bulging cans have been returned to Waltons. In almost every case, these cans held mixes that contained baking powder or soda. It is believed that occasionally the extremely small amount of moisture found in the product interacts over time with the baking powder or soda and creates a small amount of carbon dioxide gas. Oxyten absorbers can also react with the baking powder causing the cans to buldge. These cans have been sent off for bacteria analysis and and in each case came back negative.

Jimfrancisco | 03-10-2009 06:59 PM
Re: Storing flour products Quote:
Originally Posted by maddyn99 (Post 1617474) It depends on what you consider long term. Milled flour is good no more than a few years no matter how its sealed. I think if your going to take the time, energy and expense of storing for the long term you might as well store whole wheat. Stored in a mylar bag, with 02 you can expect 30+ years. While you do need a grain mill its still way way cheaper than having to replace your preps every few years. If your storing in mylar bags with o2 packs you don't need to freeze but it wont hurt it either. Bugs cant live with out o2. As far as powder type of ingredients such as salt, sugar, baking powder and Soda I would recommend 1/2 gallon mason jars. You don't need o2 packs with any of those and you can use your vacuum sealer with the mason jar attachment to get rid of most of the air. Salt and sugar will last indefinitely stored this way. I'm not sure about soda and powder of the top of my head, but I would guess 20+ years. Storing Wheat Long Term
Why would you want to store flour or for that matter wheat, for 20-30 years?

Merlin | 03-10-2009 07:09 PM
Re: Storing flour products Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimfrancisco (Post 1617940) Why would you want to store flour or for that matter wheat, for 20-30 years?
People who want to put up a store of food as insurance against possible hard times find comfort that at least some items will keep for a long, long time. It can be extremely difficult to use and rotate your way through a year or a two-year supply of food and continue to live a normal life during times of abundance. In my case, for instance, I bake bread using the wheat berries I have stored and ground into whole wheat flour once a week or two -- but no where near as frequently as I might if store-bought breads and foods were no longer available. As a result, I have a significant stock of wheat berries in my food storage pantry that are over 5 years old at this point. Imagine the problem I would have if it had all gone bad and become inedible 2 years ago. Wheat berries are a nearly perfect survival food storage item because they keep nearly forever when stored properly. Same thing with honey.

ShirleyUGeste | 03-10-2009 08:44 PM
Re: Storing flour products Merlin, none of my local grocers carry "wheat berries." Any idea where I can buy some?

MNeagle | 03-10-2009 08:53 PM
Re: Storing flour products Quote:
Originally Posted by ShirleyUGeste (Post 1618102) Merlin, none of my local grocers carry "wheat berries." Any idea where I can buy some?
Try a health food store.

Merlin | 03-10-2009 09:03 PM
Re: Storing flour products Quote:
Originally Posted by MNeagle (Post 1618121) Try a health food store.
And, while you're at it, talk to the health food store manager. Tell him you want to order in bulk (like 25 or 50 pounds or whatever) and could he help you to defray your shipping costs by letting you piggy-back your order with his the next time he orders a shipment. My local store did that for me. I probably didn't get the very lowest price per pound. But if you order from someplace like Walton Feed, shipping will cost you a pretty penny unless your order is 200 pounds or more (and it sure as heck won't be cheap even then.)

Stealinator | 03-10-2009 09:16 PM
Re: Storing flour products Quote:
Originally Posted by maddyn99 (Post 1617474) It depends on what you consider long term. Milled flour is good no more than a few years no matter how its sealed. I think if your going to take the time, energy and expense of storing for the long term you might as well store whole wheat. Stored in a mylar bag, with 02 you can expect 30+ years. While you do need a grain mill its still way way cheaper than having to replace your preps every few years. If your storing in mylar bags with o2 packs you don't need to freeze but it wont hurt it either. Bugs cant live with out o2. As far as powder type of ingredients such as salt, sugar, baking powder and Soda I would recommend 1/2 gallon mason jars. You don't need o2 packs with any of those and you can use your vacuum sealer with the mason jar attachment to get rid of most of the air. Salt and sugar will last indefinitely stored this way. I'm not sure about soda and powder of the top of my head, but I would guess 20+ years. Storing Wheat Long Term
Thanks for the link. I have not bought any but is on my list of preps. Was planing on getting 4 6gal pails. Thinking timing may be key in getting fresh wheat. Big question, what is the deal with organic wheat. Copied the below from the link. Clean is most definatly what I would like, no ergot bodies or smut balls for me!!! Contaminants commonly found in wheat may include any or all of the following: (1) smut balls, (2) ergot bodies, (3) mouse droppings, (4) chaff, (5) weed seeds, (6) dirt and rocks, (7) insect parts, and (8) other crops. 1. Smut balls�Wheat plants infected with smut fungi produce smut balls in the head instead of healthy kernels. Fully developed smut balls are approximately the same size and weight as wheat kernels and are difficult to completely remove from wheat by either screening or fanning. The ball consists of the seed coat of a wheat kernel with the internal parts replaced by millions of black smut spores. The spores are not dangerous to health but discolor flour when the grain is milled. Smut balls can be easily crushed between the fingers. When present in considerable quantity, the spores impart a fish-like odor to the wheat and greatly reduce the market value. 2. Ergot bodies�Ergot is a fungal disease which affects only the flowering parts of many members of the grass family. Ergot bodies are hard, spurlike, purplish-black structures that replace the kernel on the grain head. These bodies vary in size and may be the length of a wheat kernel or as much as several times that length. They are not easily crushed; however, when fractured, the inner broken faces are off-white, yellow, or tan. These fungal bodies contain alkaloids that can cause poisoning in humans if they are present in the grain when it is converted to flour. When taken in large dosages, the ergot alkaloids cause constriction of blood vessels in the limbs or extremities. The effects of ergot poisoning are cumulative and lead to numbness of the appendages, shrinkage, and finally dropping off. Ergot bodies are very rarely found in wheat, but are more commonly found in some lots of rye. 3. Mouse droppings�Mouse droppings are black and may resemble ergot bodies. However, when broken the interior is black and does not resemble the lighter color of ergot bodies. Droppings are of various shapes and sizes but are often roughly cylindrical. They are not poisonous but are difficult �to stomach� once they have been identified. Droppings are usually found in wheat which has been stored for some time. 4. Chaff�Chaff consists of broken wheat, plant parts, and the glumes (papery bracts) which enclose the kernels. Chaff pieces are usually easy to remove by fanning and/or screening except where the kernels are enclosed by the glumes. 5. Weed seeds�A large number of weeds may grow in wheat fields and many of their seeds may be found in field-run wheat. If the weed seeds are approximately the same size and weight as wheat kernels, they may be present in wheat that has previously been screened or fanned. 5 6. Dirt and rocks�Pieces of dirt and broken rocks may be found in wheat, particularly when grown on rough, uneven, or rocky ground. Dirt and rocks are most commonly found in field-run wheat. 7. Insect parts�Fragments of insects, such as grasshopper legs and body parts may be included in field-run wheat. These parts are light in weight and are easily fanned out of contaminated wheat seed. 8. Other crops�It is not uncommon to find kernels of barley in wheat. Due to their enclosure in rough glumes and different milling qualities, barley kernels are undesirable.

Stealinator | 03-10-2009 09:26 PM
Re: Storing flour products Quote:
Originally Posted by ShirleyUGeste (Post 1618102) Merlin, none of my local grocers carry "wheat berries." Any idea where I can buy some?
This is the site I was going to order from, put link open to page with the berries, will do some double checking to make sure is what I want , now that I have read up a little more on them. http://beprepared.com/category.asp_Q_c_E_79

Tn...Andy | 03-10-2009 09:53 PM
Re: Storing flour products Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin (Post 1617951) People who want to put up a store of food as insurance against possible hard times find comfort that at least some items will keep for a long, long time. It can be extremely difficult to use and rotate your way through a year or a two-year supply of food and continue to live a normal life during times of abundance. In my case, for instance, I bake bread using the wheat berries I have stored and ground into whole wheat flour once a week or two -- but no where near as frequently as I might if store-bought breads and foods were no longer available. As a result, I have a significant stock of wheat berries in my food storage pantry that are over 5 years old at this point. Imagine the problem I would have it it had all gone bad and become inedible 2 years ago. Wheat berries are a nearly perfect survival food storage item because they keep nearly forever when stored properly. Same thing with honey.
Eating hot homemade bread right out of the oven as I type....opps....just dripped some of Armed Peasant's homemade blackberry jam down in the keyboard...ahahahaa... We keep 1000 lbs or more of whole wheat berries in "super pail" type buckets. Walton feed is a good place ( or has been in the past ) Best thing to do is get an order up with other folks in your area and get it sent by motor freight. Also, look in the sticky section of Prep forum under "where to get stuff " Some years ago, on a Walton order, I ended up somehow with a 6 gallon superpail (superpails = mylar bag + O2 absorbers ) of bread flour......I either ordered it by mistake or they sent it by mistake, but anyway, I had it sitting around in a cool location for 5-6 years, and we got it out this year to see how it was....couldn't tell a lick of difference from fresh store bought white flour.....so I suspect it keeps a pretty long time actually, as long as sealed and cool.

Julian | 03-11-2009 04:40 PM
Re: Storing flour products Quote:
Originally Posted by ShirleyUGeste (Post 1618102) Merlin, none of my local grocers carry "wheat berries." Any idea where I can buy some?
Yes, indeed... most Fred Meyers' have them in their bulk section, also check Rosaures at the Y, again in bulk. Winco over on Nevada has them in bulk, too, and may also have a 25 or 50lb sack. Also, see: http://www.azurestandard.com/

CrufflerJJ | 03-11-2009 08:47 PM
Re: Storing flour products Quote:
Originally Posted by ShirleyUGeste (Post 1618102) Merlin, none of my local grocers carry "wheat berries." Any idea where I can buy some?
Look on eBay. I know that some folks sell wheat in small quantities on that site.

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