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Kahlil Gibran | 04-24-2007 08:47 AM
Forming Survival Groups this Article comes from the website that platinumdude found: http://survivalacres.com/wordpress/?p=583 Forming Survival Groups This is a continuance from Part I, Future Prep. Blog postings are usually meant to be short if they�re going to read at all. I don�t think anybody likes to read particurly long essays online. What I write next is based on many years of personal experience. Forming groups to survive the collapse is often inquired upon and this subject is very difficult to deal with. Most groups fail (over 95%) within two or three years (or even sooner). And that�s now, when tshtf isn�t �real� yet and the greater society remains viable out there to catch the pieces (people) that go spinning off from their fractured group attempts. Here is where most groups fail (in no particular order): 1) Unrealized expectations. Either these were not fully discussed, written down (important) and agreed upon, expectations are often unfilled, causing dissension, implosion and failure. 2) Lack of �localness�. Forming a group from �outsiders� is an almost certain recipe for disaster. The lack of local connections, customs, habits, expectations, and familiarity with all of the above, causes most �formed groups� from people scattered far and wide to fail. 3) Lack of funding. A serious lack of planning, expectations and foresight, lack of initial startup costs, etc. Individual members don�t make equal contributions in terms of resources, land, money and resentment develops. 4) Habits and belief systems. Smokers, dogs, religion, politics, work ethics, even scheduling habits. Slackers, wannabe�s, lazy and incompetent people should be avoided at all costs. 5) Relocation. This is a gigantic �biggie� which encompasses ALL of the above. Economic factors aside (which are monumental all by themselves) if resolved, still fails to account for the challenges and difficulties of relocation and the undue stress that this places upon ALL the participants. However, relocation is very often a prerequisite and thus, impossible to under estimate. 6) Familiarity. The lack of communication, understanding, expectations, realizations, habits, hangups, hanger on�s (extra family members, kids, troublesome friends, etc.) create extreme problems. Includes non-humans too (dogs, birds, cats, family �pets�). 7) Impatience and lack of bonding. Most groups form in a hurry, based on a perceived need and almost always, a sense of urgency, which fails to address ALL of the above. Such groups are destined for disaster and failure. Groups are stronger then individuals, but you must carefully consider what you�re asking for - and expecting. And what people say - and what they do are two entirely different things. Stress can produce the very worst and the very best in humans. You have to know that your fellow members won�t crack under pressure. Most of them probably will. I strongly advise AGAINST forming a group from people that do not live close by that you cannot get to know personally, intimately and slowly. Time is against you right now to do this, but I still hold this opinion based on years of personal experience. If you are going to form a group, start with family. Then close friends. And close neighbors. Beyond that, forget it. It probably won�t work. It almost never does. There are many different kinds of preparedness groups in the US, usually based around a common belief or perception. However, close examination will often reveal that the same belief is not enough. Nor is the same politics, religion or expectations. Most of these groups implode. The human dynamics come into play when you put people together and you quickly find out just how compatible you really are. I could (and have) written an entire book on this subject, so I suggest you carefully consider what you�re asking for. Don�t ask for a copy, I don�t circulate it anymore. Groups must hold common values, morals, beliefs and have clear lines of communication, leadership and problem resolution. All that, plus all of the above. Be careful. I am not advising against it, but this is a Pandora�s box and once opened, can be deadly. Remember, groups implode, killing off each other, sometimes literally. Massive pressure is also created by society, law enforcement and others from without. Eventually, cracks appear and self-destruction ensues. Your as well off, if not better, sticking with family, close neighbors and friends. These �groups� already have the �localness� requirement (essential), lines of communications, understanding of habits, belief systems, ethics and many other very important factors, including private property (even personal property). These groups are far from perfect (no group is), but they have a better foundation upon which to build then putting together relative strangers. I�m am certainly not against forming groups - in fact, I think they are essential. It�s the �how� they are formed that is often overlooked and what it means. I�d like to gently comment that the examples of camp, military, sports, college, business, etc., all have the same characteristic - and that is the support structure that exists within and without these �organizations�. Take away that support structure, ie., societal collapse, and all of that �outside help� that all of these organizations rely upon to function correctly and you have a sure-fire recipe for disaster. There have been even rogue military groups that have impoded with the surrounding support structure collapses. Groups function �best� when the surrounding infrastructure continues to provide. Take that away, and any group is subject to implosion. Which is in fact, exactly what happens when such organizations are stressed beyond their intended capacitity, capabilities and expectations. This scenario is extremely likely in our near future. Human relationships are built upon trust, communication, understanding and needs. This last point is almost always overlooked. A lot of people work because of needs, put up with a tyrant boss or crappy working hours based on this fact alone. Given the choice, they�d be doing something else. Which of course, is the option they choose at first chance. This can happen in a group too. They are in fact, already working for �survival� with a tremendous �outside support system� in place. Take away that outside support system (grocery stores, gas stations, doctors, cars, entertainment, comfort food (junk food), law enforcement, potentially all of it) and they won�t be showing up for work or anything else. In fact, who and what they really are will reveal itself rather quickly and sometimes quite violently. This is why �knowing� your support group intimately is going to be so important - people that can truly be relied upon and trusted and won�t leave you in a lurch or turn against you. I cannot emphasize this enough. In crisis, the issue of needs (survival) becomes of paramount importance and the concept of �self� asserts itself in myriad ways. The lack of a supporting network will really change people and I can pretty much state with assurance - you won�t like it. And they won�t like you either. The change will be abrupt, brutal and harsh. Survival is personal warfare, not in the sense of �attack and destroy�, but in the sense that all the rules are thrown out. All of them. We saw this with 500 law enforcement officers quitting during the Katrina disaster. It just didn�t matter anymore when their world was totally destroyed. We saw looters, assassinations, rapes, murders and probably much more. And that was in a regional disaster, actually fairly localized compared to what could occur on a global scale now. Loyalties got thrown out with the dirty flood waters and people reverted to self-preservation mode very quickly. Of course, not everyone did (or will), but many did, bearing in mind that they all expected rescue. What about when there is no more rescue? No more larger society to come tooling along and fix the problems? This is when things will really reveal themselves, the will to live, struggle, survive and go on will be the daily challenge, hour by hour, minute by minute. It�s when the food runs out (or runs low) that people will start getting really afraid (and really wierd). Food is comfort, safety and security. Food is life itself, few really seem to consider it�s critical importance or fragile nature. Civilizations and tribes throughout history have risen and fallen according to the food supply (duh!). I emphasize this because that is the very issue at risk. Humans can live without power, and humans can even cope with climate change (to an extent), but 6.8 billion humans cannot live without food that was raised with cheap power, cheap petroleum, vast distribution systems and predictable climates. When these go away, and they will, cheap energy, vast crop lands, affordable transportation, distribution systems and stocked shelves disappear, desperation will set in. And then violence will set in, with a vengeance. America�s homeless rarely starve to death because they have sources of nutrition available to them (and because we won�t let them starve, but that won�t last into the future). I�m not suggesting that it�s pleasant or easy, but they do manage to live, because there is still a support structure in place that they can glean off of. Collapse will change all of that, this paradigm of a vast, integrated and functioning infrastructure that provides for the minimal or maximum needs (depending on your status in life) won�t be there anymore. Food is the basic element (and water of course). As collapse becomes more enhanced, you can expect food rationing and empty shelves in time. During disasters now, this always happens. And when the commercially produced food runs out, desperation will set in. Cold showers, or skinny dipping in a lake are tolerable, but hunger is not. Expect people to fight each other and wipe out most of the wildlife. What climate change doesn�t kill, humans will. And then they will turn on each other, some sooner rather then later. I only want to make the point that crisis is a time of turning, a time of revealing what character is in people and whether or not you can trust them with your life, or if they will be selfish and sacrifice you because of their needs. It can a very innocuous and innocent request that can get you killed. Let�s just say that a pandemic outbreak has hit the States, everybody everywhere is quarantined and ordered to stay home. What happens when you�re neighbor comes over? What do you do? If he�s clueless, he won�t realize the danger he represents, just knocking on your door, asking for something to eat. Or water. Or medicine. Or toilet paper. Innoccuous request, but under pandemic, absolutely deadly. You need people who are paying attention and understand their �role� and �responsibility�, otherwise, you risk disaster. So, our imaginary clueless neighbor, decides he doesn�t like you ignorning him and figures he�ll just help himself, smashing through a window and trying to enter your house to find whatever it was he needed. Suddenly, your isolation and quarantine is broken and you�re all in danger. You�ve got a big problem - brought upon you against your best desires. You�re going to have to handle it. This is why trust is so important. Hand in hand with trust is communication. This tiny example reveals that you have to �know� your neighbors, they can�t be putting you (and then themselves) at extreme risk. Expect a lot of people to continue to do some really stupid things. This will only worsen as collapse ensues. None of this applies to the same degree when there is an �outside support� structure in place. Your neighbor can simply go knock on another door, walk to the store, call for help, something, anything. He�s got other places to turn to. And so do you, if it happens to be you that needs something or help. But take that all away, take away all forms of social organizations and agreements, all available goods and distribution points, all means of safe travel, all means of constraints and limitations, potentially everything, and the social dynamics change radically, instantly. Trust cannot be bought in a survival sitatuation, before or afterwards. Trust is earned, the hard way through time, committment, loyalty and experience. Societal collapse will expose every lie, distortion and assumption you can possibly imagine. Trust will be suddenly of paramount importance, but the factors necessary (time) will be gone. Get started now if you intend to do anything at all. You�ve little real time left and what remains needs to be used wisely. Family has always been the core for groups and will remain so. Blood is thicker then water. For most families, the commitment is already there and the desire for the family to live will be there too. Important reminder and a good code to live by. Watch what people actually do. Applies to absolutely everyone. Not what they say, but what they do. This reveals their true heart and intentions and why you can see right through them so easily. Lying, backstabbing and gossip in a survival situation will get you very dead. Pay attention to this now. Survival groups will form, but I no longer believe that small groups will survive. I�m not suggesting that the commentary above is wrong, I�m stating that small, isolated survival groups will have a very hard time of it because of a lack of diverse skills, security, infighting, resources and even opportunities to �better� then situation. Community survival has many advantages to small groups and I think this is a far better solution then winging it on your own or with your family. But even with the community, there is still the core groups. Community survival will (probably) be built upon these core groups, made up of many families. This is in effect, what we have today in our small towns. A community will have a better chance because of the diversification of skills, labor, land and resources. They will also receive and wield authority and recognition of that authority, whereas a rogue band of survivalist won�t. This is going to be pretty important as lawlessness will be very prevelant. Communities will also be able to setup barter, trade and labor exchange (even slavery, ie., �work for food� if it degenerates to that). Medicine and medical treatment will be top priorities for the members. I�d expect fiefdoms and warlords eventually too. History has many examples of nations resorting to such �law and order�. Law and order will be replaced with what works. A lot of our stupid laws and rules, permits, regulations and restrictions will be tossed right out the window. And a lot of would-be tyrants will try to take control. Get rid of them, by any means necessary (I am serious). They are and will be a serious danger to everyone. The community will function best when everyone works. Respect is earned, not implied or demanded. Leaders that do not lead, but dictate, orchestrate or tyrate should not be tolerated by anyone. We�ve got enough of these leaches now, there won�t be any need for them in the future. Communities will also have far better growing capabilties then small bands, marshalling labor and resources on a larger scale. They will also be able to deal with defensive issues against raiding parties and �outlaws� (the small survivalist bands) far better then smaller groups. There will be both safety and oppression in numbers (just like now). This is one of the big advantages of communities over ecovillages by the way, I�ve yet to hear about an ecovillage that is prepared to meet the needs of the surrounding community, or even to adequately defend itself. Ecovillages will be quickly overrun and consumed by hungry people. The solution for survival isn�t a loner approach, or even a small band or tribe (unless you truly manage to isolate yourselves and stay that way and are willing to work like hell trying to stay alive). The solution is community based. Find a community that you can become a part of and integrate yourself and family into that community. This community will need to have plentiful water as stated in Part I of this series. It will also require fertile soil, something I don�t think I�ve mentioned yet. Importantly, the community will need to come up to speed very quickly with the issues of community survival if it is not already. Some communities are already �on their way�, particularily in Cascadia. I don�t know all the details, but they are working towards sustainable living and have both plentiful water, good soils and decent growing seasons (for now, climate change may change that, thus you may find yourself moving again in time). The big problem with Cascadia is population, there are simply far too many people there and nearby that will migrate in to feed. This will be a huge problem in the US especially and in Europe. However, most communities are totally clueless on sustainability and will think you�re nuts to even suggest it. This is where the survival groups will come into play. Picking a community, forming survival groups with the intention of �converting� the township as circumstances force them is a good strategy. They�ll get on board because they will have to. And if they don�t, they will have either left, killed you, or died themselves, but they�re not going to ignore the collapse, nobody is.

Anty Ep | 04-24-2007 10:04 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups What the fellow says here is pretty sharp: Quote:
If you are going to form a group, start with family. Then close friends. And close neighbors. Beyond that, forget it. It probably won�t work. It almost never does. There are many different kinds of preparedness groups in the US, usually based around a common belief or perception. However, close examination will often reveal that the same belief is not enough. Nor is the same politics, religion or expectations. Most of these groups implode. The human dynamics come into play when you put people together and you quickly find out just how compatible you really are.

Maddie | 04-24-2007 10:20 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Good post. Survival groups seem to be one of those ideas that attracts newcomers who may not have considered all the pitfalls. My very first experience with a survival group back in the 70s went awry when one of the group developed some pretty serious psychopathic tendencies. He'd been in his early 20s when we started it. Over the next couple of years, he started manifesting increasingly alarming personality traits. We ended it when he began fantasizing about which guy in the group he was going to have to kill off first for challenging him after TSHTF. We're lucky the guy didn't go off and do something crazy enough to attract unwanted attention to all of us. We should have ended the group earlier than we did, but in those pre-Internet days, it wasn't all that easy to contact others of like mind, and I think we were all reluctant to let go of the group. Unless I get stuck in my neighborhood, my group will be family. We've already made plans. Any additional close friends that will may be let in will be from among our caving friends (my sister, husband, and I all share these friends). We know them extremely well, have known them for years, and we know how they work together and how they handle life-threatening situations and stress.

Kahlil Gibran | 04-24-2007 11:50 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups He reports that over 95% of the groups fail. His observations about human nature seem based upon serious experience and personal study. This really is a very thought-provoking article.

damoc | 04-24-2007 12:23 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Good article and while he says that most groups fail he also believes as do I that comunities will be best prepared post shtf to survive.

RiverRat | 04-24-2007 01:02 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups :bear_thumb: This part he has right... Quote:
Expect people to fight each other and wipe out most of the wildlife. What climate change doesn�t kill, humans will. And then they will turn on each other, some sooner rather then later.
The best argument ever for going it alone...one smart,well trained individual can kill off THE GROUP one by one like shooting sheep in a barrel...safety in numbers ceases to be a factor when they are at each others' throats and distracted 24/7...they are prime targets for extermination and food slavery... Their mindset will be their worst enemy...when the pressure is cranked up and the food runs low those with lesser skills and lesser brains will be judged expendable very quickly...your own group will throw you to the wolves to insure survival of the group as a whole... Still want to join The Mouseketeers ? I think not.... :eek_ma: :eek_ma: :eek_ma:

gunner | 04-24-2007 01:10 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups IMO - the success of the group depends on many variables, the most important being the mindset of the individuals that make up the group. Assembling a group post SHTF will likely be tough as most would be unprepared newcomers, too much to learn, still brainwashed sheeple.

hoarder | 04-24-2007 01:17 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups My greatest fear about the "go it alone" strategy is that there is little defense against snipers. Think of how the Indians lived hundreds of years ago. There was little opportunity for individuality. Either you were part of the tribe and living with the tribe or your days were numbered on your own. Renegades had to form groups for survival. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. The easy life will be history WTSHTF.

keehah | 04-24-2007 01:21 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Just read a blog and comments with similiar thinking. Being able to organize an existing community would seem to have better risk/reward ratio than attempting to build a lifeboat type community. Where are the Lifeboat Communities?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> By John Michael Greer The Archdruid Report http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.c...mmunities.html Good article but my favourite quotes are from a couple comments after it: Quote:
Having moved out into the sticks almost 20 years ago, I can tell you that it has been nothing like what I expected. As John says, the sheer amount of physical labor involved in raising your own food is incredible. The monetary input has been unbelievable as well. About 12 years ago, it became obvious that we weren't going to make it on the farm alone. I've been working full time at an outside job since. Thankfully, about 6 months ago, I was able to make the transition to full-time telecommuting, so I now again have some time to devote to the farm. The greenhouse will be finished tomorrow. I have some hope of raising a large percentage of our food this year, for the first time in those 12 years. If you're thinking of going back to the land, I have some suggestions. The first is to understand why you want to. If you're de-urbanizing out of fear, of economic collapse, or crime, or pollution, or whatever else, you'd better just stay home. All the things you're afraid of in town are worse out in the country. I mean it. I have a convicted, level 3 child molester living adjacent to my property. Second, raise a garden, right where you are now. I've had gardens since I was 8, and I knew how much work it was to hoe a row of peas. Third, get and learn how to use a gun. Where I am it would take about 20 minutes for the police to get here, were I to call. That's enough time to get very very dead. You will have to defend yourself. No-one else will defend you. Fourth, get the tools and skills now. Trying to learn when you're dependent on the outcome can be a bad experience. Explicitly lifeboat communities are doomed. Even if you can get one formed and working, it will only last one generation. What will last is a community organized around a specific purpose. I don't even think it's particularly important what that purpose is, provided it is meaningful to the members and serves as a means of ordering the life of the community. I think the failure of the communes in the 60's has a simple explanation. What is most important about trying to build a community is that any small community must share a common culture. A culture consists mostly in a set of shared understanding of how the world works, and what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior. Most of the 60's communes failed because a bunch of kids smoking dope and sharing a vague admiration for Marxism is not a shared culture. Some would work hard and some would not. Some would be content to live is squalor, others would not. Some would put their Marxism in practice through petty theft. And free love is a disastrous undertaking in any human society. It is also true that unrealistic expectations were shattered on the hard rock of reality. They always are. Some rose to the occasion (Terry Pratchett comes to mind). Most did not. Most do not. ....I agree, from hard experience, that subsistence farming is incredibly difficult. Raising grain, as an example is more expensive than buying it. I don't think subsistence farming should be the goal, unless and until you see an actual societal collapse. The goal should be to be ready to raise most/all of your own food. To have the skills, tools, and resources in place to do so. And to have other skills that are of value in a post-petroleum economy, such as brewing, musicianship, spinning, knitting, knifesmithing, woodcarving, or, for you hunter-gatherers out there, flint knapping. Very few people around the world have ever raised all their own food, made all their own tools, did everything on a self-sufficient basis. Trade is a feature of all human society, so it's good to have something to trade. <o:p></o:p> <AS founder of a nascent ?intentional community,? I used put the emphasis on ?intentional.? We build our little sustainable world, and people would come flocking us.< font to> ....But although our island location was carefully selected for the advantages of community and the ethic of self-sufficiency (albeit delusional), I had no idea how important this was to become. We're teaching our neighbors to value their biomass, rather than burn it. One neighbor (who heats with propane) gave us several huge downed trees -- probably $500 worth of firewood -- that we only have to cut, haul, split, and cure. Another neighbor suggested we remove a fence between our properties, to better utilize a stream that runs down our side. Another neighbor gave us slash piles from recent logging, that we're berming and chipping to build soil and control erosion. We've hosted potlucks for the local organic farming organization and the Green party. The point is that we're now in this unintentional community that functions better than our intentional community does! Our IC partners are well-meaning, but have city lives they don't think they can give up and only want to fully join us on the land "when the village is ready." So if you're interested in a lifeboat, the first thing to do is to look around you. The fellow in #4B across the hall may have the prow; the suburban neighbor with the SUV you hate may actually be holding the stern. And if you're lucky enough to already be rural, one of your neighbors may have the entire boat in some old barn! You may have more resources available than you think -- even if your neighbors don't feel the same about the future as you do. If you invest in the "human capital" now, you'll be able to harvest the "interest" from that capital when the time is right. I don't think it will take much for people to come together, but only if the right seeds have been planted. Assuming we have some time on our hands, and assuming coming bad times will become obvious before they're catastrophic, we should all be working toward teaching by example, toward being resources for our existing communities. They'll remember that.<o:p></o:p>

GOLD DUCK | 04-24-2007 03:23 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat (Post 584039) :bear_thumb: This part he has right... The best argument ever for going it alone...one smart,well trained individual can kill off THE GROUP one by one like shooting sheep in a barrel...safety in numbers ceases to be a factor when they are at each others' throats and distracted 24/7...they are prime targets for extermination and food slavery... Their mindset will be their worst enemy...when the pressure is cranked up and the food runs low those with lesser skills and lesser brains will be judged expendable very quickly...your own group will throw you to the wolves to insure survival of the group as a whole... Still want to join The Mouseketeers ? I think not.... :eek_ma: :eek_ma: :eek_ma:
QWAK,Rat you are RIGHT and I am NOT looking forward to that LIVING HELL but that IS what IS most likely to happen! I tried starting a SURVIVAL TEAM back in 81 when I bought my cabin and land it was a total DISASTER and the IDEALISTIC fanticy I had was SHATTERED and PULVERISED! I believe that the KEY is COMUNICATION befor,during and AFTER and I am inclined to believe that perhaps rather than the CLOSENESS it may actualy work out BEST for INDIVIGUALS if they have PREPOSITIONED and PREPARED and have many asorted ABILITIES! I am inclined to believe that a LOOSE group of INDIVIGUALS who manage to stay in comunication (Sat links,short wave.Etc.) can offer suport threw INFORMATION and proper PLANING but would NOT directly be in COMPITITION with others in the group. Once the DUST settles and the majority have TAKEN EACH OTHER OUT or died off fairly quickly due to the trigering disaster/emergency the "LOAN WOLFS" can come together and form a PACK based on MUTUIL RESPECT that the others are potentialy JUST as DANGEROUS so best to GET ALONG and suport each other and the pack! People under stress fall apart and it does not realy take much and at that point the term "SLEEPING with the ENEMY" has its core of TRUTH. I think the best way to know how a person will act is as simple as seeing how they act when going with out SLEEP even for just a day or two! After 3 to 5 days of only geting short CAT NAPS even the BEST and STRONGIST will CRACK not nessarly geting VIOLENT (althow that is probably high on the list) JUDGMENT and MISTAKES become the REAL KILLERS that will take YOU or any one OUT real fast! Actualy it is a fairly good way to find out how YOU will do under STRESS! What YOU think you know and will do, I GARANTEE will be very diferent from what happens! Knowing THAT could just save YOUR own life actualy, because you can be PREPARED for and looking for the PROBLEMS you discover doing the TEST! When you are EXHAUSTED and have had NO or very little sleep CRAZY things HAPPEN and your MIND can and likely WILL shut down to some extent, you will be functioning on AUTO PIOLET, there but not REALY thinking. As time goes on with out sleep, the mix of REALITY and DREAM state gets BLENDED and telling one from the other is not realy posable! My record was 154 hours and at that point wile not violent I know I was as crazy as a RAT (not RR) in an ash can! Even with a night or two of sleep I became disorintated on a drive home from a city just 100 miles away,I missed a road sign (I was not driving the main interstate highway and only about 25 miles from home) and I wound up fairly deep in a state park that is close to ware I live. I came across two kids smoking a joint and offered them $20.00 just to get ME to the nearist town (like 5 miles) and from THERE I knew I could get home BLIND or in the dark any way! It took over a weak fo me to get my self back to NORMAL or at least as normal as a DUCK can be! :stupid: :laugh: With out SLEEP you can't even truely trust YOUR SELF and a group,even a friend or partner just multiplies that problem!:albertein I dbout most people would even MARRY if they went 4 days with out sleep and under real stress together befor getting married! :love: the DUCK

Anty Ep | 04-24-2007 03:58 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups interesting remark about "communities formed around a purpose." a purpose other than "survival." think about the forms of human societies for a second. in the west what are the longest and most enduring institutions? I dont mean type of institutions, I mean, institutions with definite and continuous successions uninterrupted-- continuously existing? easy answer 1. Roman Catholic Church 2. other Apostolic Churches-- like Greek Orthodox Church 3. Universities.... like the Sorbonne http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbonne or the University of Bologna http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Bologna or Cambridge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Cambridge or Oxford http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Oxford -- pretty much all those founded in the 12th or 13 centuries. How many French governments has the Sorbonne outlived? How many English dynasties has Oxford outlived? How many imperial masters has Bologna outlived? Bet you never thought of universities as one of the most stable institutions in the west didya?

Kahlil Gibran | 04-24-2007 05:37 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 584280) Bet you never thought of universities as one of the most stable institutions in the west didya?
Their product is not known for common sense let alone practical survival. Self-perpetuating that they are. Self-supporting they are not. More real "Survival" info just in this thread then taught on any campus. :albertein Today we shall explore the meaning of Capital and Labor. Gimme some tuition.

REV127 | 04-24-2007 07:35 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups I don't know about one of those writers, it really isn't hard to raise food. Maybe he's doing it wrong or lives in an extremely hostile environment? Likewise everything in the country is worse than in the city? He must have picked a bad location. I did background and demographic checks before I bought my place, everything here is heads and shoulders above the city. I had trash to pick up from the former owners but when that's gone its gone, no comparison to the cycles of renewable garbage in streets every day in the city. The air even smells better out here. I think some people either just plain get it wrong or don't have what it takes. I have read other articles like the "Survival Preps: Contrarian Investment Of 2007" that had some pretty ridiculous ideas about survival communities. The author believed that when you got to the country you'd find turnkey farms abandonned just waiting for you to walk in and start them up. He also believed that establised rural folk would happily accept soft, pasty refugees as valuable members of their group. Wherever you are and whatever your numbers securing your perimeter needs to be a top priority.

hoarder | 04-24-2007 08:27 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 584593) Wherever you are and whatever your numbers securing your perimeter needs to be a top priority.
If you live on a 1/2 acre tract all you need to do is build a hell of a fence. What suggestions would you have for people with larger tracts? If someone had 40 or 200 acres should they define a smaller inner perimeter? How do you secure a perimeter without troops on watch 24/7? The shotshell trip alarms are a good idea for paths of least resistance but what about the rest of the perimeter? I envision a sniper putting a bullet in my skull from a number of angles. I think a smaller tract like 10 or 20 acres with many like minded neighbors would be safer than large tracts next to USFS.

Kahlil Gibran | 04-24-2007 08:51 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 584647) The shotshell trip alarms are a good idea for paths of least resistance but what about the rest of the perimeter? I envision a sniper putting a bullet in my skull from a number of angles. I think a smaller tract like 10 or 20 acres with many like minded neighbors would be safer than large tracts next to USFS.
The original post in this thread agrees that a "loner" is not viable wtshtf. Gotta sleep sometime.

REV127 | 04-24-2007 09:12 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Yup, you'd have to have concentrate your effort on a smaller more easily defensible inner perimeter. If I had 40+ acres the first thing I'd want to do is dig a very large pond between my home and the access road. I would hope to have dense woods, swamp, steep hills or similar on the wings of my property. This would funnel vehicular traffic down a predetermined path and if you were lucky it would force them to approach single file. With all that dirt I would construct earthworks around my house, up to roof level. I'd allow grass and such to grow on the hill to make it look more natural, if you're lucky a passerby won't even know you're there. There should be a few tens of yard of open space between your house and the earthworks, that way you can have a certain number of crops and livestock within this area and you could feel safe moving about there as long as there was no higher position from which you could be sniped. Outside the earthworks would be a cleared area preferably extended 200 or 300 yards all around. Most people couldn't reliably hit you from the edge of that clearing and you'd have an easier time spotting them while you yourself are in defilade on your earthworks. The clearing would probably have to be put to use for pasture and growing some crops. I would just make sure to lay out things like rows, fences, any necessary outbuildings in such a way that they didn't really obstruct your view too much. On the other hand if you have 40+ acres of heavy woods in an isolated area your best bet would probably be just to try and be unobtrusive. No matter what your situation you need dogs, geese or a similarly useful alarm animal. Use them to set up listening posts outside your perimeter. If you used 4 different animals with distinct alarm sounds you could instantly tell which quadrant a threat was coming from. You'd probably want a backup animal listening post in case your first animal is eliminated the second one will hear the commotion and go off. If you can keep a handful of remote cameras operational you can then place them where they can watch the main approaches to give you and idea of what's out there before leaving your home. As long as you can keep tabs on them it's probably best to let them come to a killzone than to go out and meet them. There are all kinds of booby traps you can place closer in, you wouldn't want them too far out because they could end up just alerting somebody to your position. Anyway those old steel jawed bear traps are the poor man's reuseable land mine. I like the idea of treble hooks hanging from trees, hedges of spikey plants like sasparilla or wild blackberries can slow somebody down, too. Lots more obvious stuff like that if you think about it.

Wyldwil | 04-24-2007 09:39 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
4) Habits and belief systems. Smokers, dogs, religion, politics, work ethics, even scheduling habits. Slackers, wannabe�s, lazy and incompetent people should be avoided at all costs.
No shit.....

hoarder | 04-24-2007 09:53 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Good ideas, REV127. I'm covered on predetermined vehicular path. I'm primarily concerned with pedestrian trespass. A dog would definitely be a neccessity, but setting up listening posts it seems would entail chaining the dogs at different corners of the property. The easiest way in on foot would be from the East and with prevailing winds from the West, dogs would have to be chained where the bears, lions and wolves could have him for a snack. This discussion has been beneficial in that it has diverted my focus to my Eastern boundary, as all other boundaries are very steep downhill from my place. The Eastern boundary is timbered and relatively steep uphill from the homesite but offers few sniping points. As your vegetation ideas would not apply to this dry climate I would have to come up with some way of monitoring a line about 250 yards long. Treble hooks tied to Douglas Fir branches might help. I don't know if it would be feasible to try to power several webcams 100 yards from the cabin with solar energy.

hoarder | 04-24-2007 10:23 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 584775) hoarder, have you looked into Dakota Alert on a MURS radio? http://www.dakotaalert.com/murs_alert.html
Yes, Tn..Andy mentioned them some time back and that's on my list for the driveway. I'll get the longest range unit they have. I think I have the vehicular intrusion covered. They will be coming up a switchback mountain road and I'll be looking down at them.

REV127 | 04-24-2007 10:27 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups I wouldn't chain the dogs or the birds, I'd put them in protective cages. It doesn't have to be a big dog either, all you need is the alarm so any small yapper would do. A standard web cam probably wouldn't work from 100 yards unless you had a substation with ethernet back to your house. I'd be looking more at possible cctv and the wireless X10. I have no idea what your property actually looks like so I couldn't give any specific opinion on where to set up what.

RiverRat | 04-24-2007 11:34 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups :cool2: Seasoned hunters and ex military types with bush and jungle training will not buy into the group philosophy for numerous reasons... The average sheep is not a killer by choice...self defense is a word to them...not a normal,everyday routine or a state of mind. The seriousness of a survival situation depends on being proactive,not reactive...todays' dumbed down mindset of The Empire as the great protector and benevolent law enforcer is beaten into their heads and broadcast 24/7 non stop...the party line is the Empire will take care of it...do nothing...help is a phone call away...serious consequences await those who actually think and take care of their own problems outside the system.Penalties for non conformists are severe... It's pure psychological disinformation and social engineering on a vast scale to build the perfect drone and group dependent ideology. Seems to be working only too well.... Those that argue the safety in numbers(group survival) issue as the logical answer to all problems are already dead...you just don't know it yet. That's a harsh statement...but remember what you're dealing with. Do you actually think you're going to undo and erase years of psychological Empire conditioning in 24 hours ? Surround yourself with these people and you're dead meat...the mental conditioning and trauma of shock once the bullets and blood start flying will be utter chaos...maybe one in a hundred has the killer instinct still intact. If that's all I have to work with...I'll pass. If things get that bad and massive urban war breaks out nationwide I want wolves around me...nasty,bloodthirsty,phychotic killers I would feel safer with than a herd of bean counters and yuppie suburbanites with cell phones and AKs... Yeah,I know...nobody wants to hear this Armegeddon survival BS...it can never get that bad... Wanna bet ? If you're still alive,I'll see you on the other side...and we'll compare notes. :cool2: :cool2: :cool2: :cool2: BTW: If my opinion is unpopular...GOOD...maybe you'll get irked enough to turn off the TV and THINK...

Fiat Mutiny | 04-24-2007 11:43 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Rev127, when or if I ever strike it rich, I would like to hire you to help me design my fortress. On the topic of the thread, my biggest fear of joining a survival group would be letting the other members of the group know about my survival supplies/gear. The more camaraderie that develops, the more I'd be likely to suggest PM's to the crew or say hey guys you should store up at least 6 months of food, etc. Now, these fair weather friends just might turn on me when they get hungry. Their original intent was to find some camping buddies, you see and they just weren't as dedicated as I in survival preps. On the other hand, if I were to join a survival group and remain tightlipped and standoffish, what exactly would I be gaining. I suppose I could gain some knowledge off the others, but that's not the point of a survival group, it is making commrades to fight along side when society crumbles.

gpond | 04-24-2007 11:44 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat (Post 584859) BTW: If my opinion is unpopular...GOOD...maybe you'll get irked enough to turn off the TV and THINK...
You are hereby required to attend the next GIM get-together. This is not optional. You must go where you belong. We have much to learn from you. So we shall. :clap2:

Kahlil Gibran | 04-25-2007 12:13 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Maybe some of us just prefer our own company even during these "normal" times. WTSHTF a person's comfort level for companionship probably wouldn't change. :smokin: no...I don't want to go bowling tonight pal.

RiverRat | 04-25-2007 01:12 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups :beer: Thanks gpond...appreciate the support. Now...let's get down to the bottom line and the real reason most of us are here. Information and support...PMs,Conspiracy,Survival,Government..take your pick. If you are a member at GIM you've already partially split from the program and decided things are not exactly what they seem.Maybe the Empire is evil after all...you just need more proof to nail down your theory. That being the case...information and input across a wide variety of members is where the gold is...you might log on one day and get your socks blown off by a post out of left field that answers a nagging question you had or some other members' philosophy and experience gives you a whole new outlook on something you never knew before. It's a learning experience and a damn good one...the experience and opinions at work here are way above average on a variety of subjects,so if something rubs your fur the wrong way jump in and state your position or contribute another perspective to broaden the scope of the debate...reserve judgment on everything until the fat lady sings...otherwise you might miss something by slamming the door before the show ends... Vital knowledge can come from obscure sources...keep an open mind even if another member is 180 degrees out of sync with your opinion or experience...both of you might learn something after the dust clears and 75 opinions are posted...walk away mad ...you learn nothing. One thing everybody at GIM should know about me... I have a very low opinion of sheep....and next to zero confidence in things miraculously turning for the better before The Empire self destructs...barring a miracle or a grass roots revolution. I got real many years ago...to some here at GIM it comes across as pessimism...to others who have experienced the injustice and wrath of The Empire and got scorched...you know the score...I don't have to explain anything. Nobody said life is fair... OK...rant over...excuse me...I thought you put gas in the plane... :eek_ma: :banana: :eek_ma: :banana:

Ghost Recon | 04-25-2007 01:16 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups "Yeah,I know...nobody wants to hear this Armegeddon survival BS...it can never get that bad... Wanna bet ?" There is a high probability that it will happen....

REV127 | 04-25-2007 02:10 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups I would argue that being part of a group is a huge benefit, but only if the other members of the group are of very high quality. I think you "misunderestimate" the sheeple's capacity to kill. When they are under pressure and affraid they won't get their bread buttered they will lash out against their own and anybody else. Backstabbing is their way of life. Letting sheeple into your life is just plain dangerous. Likewise I have no use for a stone cold killer that can't tell the sharks from the guppies. Both these groups are unstable defectives and can't be relied upon for anything. Unfortunately between the two you have the majority of the population covered. Quality over quantity, always. The sheeple have always been sheeple and will always be sheeple. You can't expect anything of them. I suspect they represent a surplus population of defectives that by their nature spawn tyrants to destroy them as some kind of strange ecological balancing act. I am in complete agreement that we will have to weather this storm because there will be no uprising against the darkness sweeping the world. I am content with this as I have a better than average chance at surviving this mess and emerging stronger into a better world. Whether my enemy is vanquished by my hand or his own is immaterial to me so long as he is vanquished.

RiverRat | 04-25-2007 03:49 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups :coolbeer: Posted by REV127: Quote:
The sheeple have always been sheeple and will always be sheeple. You can't expect anything of them. I suspect they represent a surplus population of defectives that by their nature spawn tyrants to destroy them as some kind of strange ecological balancing act.
Yeah...I sort of like your terminology REV... :applause_ :applause_ :applause_ Defectives sounds cooler than Sheeple... For the record I propose we drop all reference to sheep as a generic label for clarity and adopt REV's new and improved terminology...defectives. Right you are Bro...defectives it is. Catchy as hell...we can run with it... :D :D :D :D

Kahlil Gibran | 04-25-2007 06:42 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat (Post 585008) For the record I propose we drop all reference to sheep as a generic label for clarity and adopt REV's new and improved terminology...defectives.
Nah...the Americans With Disabilities Act crowd would file a Federal lawsuit. :stickyman don't say "that's lame" or I will sue you. After sleeping on this thread I think that some of us are not so much loners as anti-Authority. Very few at GIM supports the government. My guess is that our aversion to groups is really an aversion of having a Boss, Leader, or Superior. Even when times are "normal" nobody here seems to take to organized Power. I think we are basically social misfits not because we prefer Solitude but because we just don't like being told what to do. That whole peer-group pressure thingie. WTSHTF the sheeple and their little dictator bossman become even more contemptible. Is it basically that we won't be told what to do rather than preferring Solitude? Is that our real aversion to groups? :smokin:

hoarder | 04-25-2007 08:41 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 584970) I would argue that being part of a group is a huge benefit, but only if the other members of the group are of very high quality.
Exactly. My thinking is that the best place to survive is on a tract wedged between other GIM types. At the inception of any survival group these points should be addressed: The main reasons for establishing such a group. That each others confidentiality shall be respected. That expectatations from other members shall be minimal and limited to agreed upon criteria. It's not about sharing resources but about watching each others backs. I might sell my current bug out if I encounter a suitable tract in an area I like that has neighbors with a like mindset about survival.

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Anty Ep | 04-25-2007 10:08 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahlil Gibran (Post 584447) Their product is not known for common sense let alone practical survival. Self-perpetuating that they are. Self-supporting they are not. More real "Survival" info just in this thread then taught on any campus.
On the contrary, some universities are incredibly productive. Think on the one hand of the product of their scientific output, just in terms of terms of inventions and so forth. Now, consider the agricultural departments-- both the innovations and the operations. Many universities have prosperous agricultural operations that are sort of like laboratories. Many of the universities emerged from Catholic religious communities. The quintessential Catholic community is the Benedictine monastery. At a time when the "collapse" of the Roman Imperium was evident, in an orgy of tribal violence and looting, the Benedictines organized small communities that preserved learning, viniculture, and many important arts for transmission to future generations. Moreover, insofar as universities are "fee for service" and that they trade pedagogy for money-- that is as legitimate a source of support as paying someone for teaching your kid piano. I have not problem with this in principal and generally universities are a net positive for the places where they are located. Not always. Finally the crappy, wrong, and socially damaging ideas emerging out of universities in the west in the past 50 years or so is generally a result of a covert takeover by "the usual suspects." Read here about "The Frankfurt School" http://www.newtotalitarians.com/FrankfurtSchool.html In case anybody was wondering, and this instructor to the Naval academy of course would not say it, but the "Frankfurt School" advocates were pretty uniformly Jewish. Obviously one part of the original essay that would be worth further consideration would be to what extent shared religion is a good thing for a "survival community" but to what extent religious "diversity" would be a BAD thing. Consider other examples of long-lived religious communities enviable for the survival acumen bsides the Benedictines. How about the Monks of Mount Athos, Greek Orthodox. Or the Shaolin. Finally, like them or not, I think the kibbutzes are a good example along these lines. Their religious uniformity is their social glue. Read this for another angle worth considering http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/...nisgoodforkids

damoc | 04-25-2007 10:12 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups I read that in indian wisdom the wolf sybolised the teacher i guess most people here on gim would fit that description as most of us want to learn and hence have the ability to teach. I can uderstand river rats point of view that why waste your time or risk your life on sheeple who were to stupid to be prepared for what to me is obviously coming.i could not live where sheeple were mainly residing suburbs/cities there are im sure some where i am but for the most part my neighbors are the type of neighbors i would like to have post shtf. i went through my lone wolf thinking and prep about 20 years ago i could still acomplish that if i had to (I think im very well prepared to do so) but i have realised it has many flaws I have a family now and i realise that i am not imortal i could die at any time and the only security my family would have would be a healthy community whom we were members.so if i can help that comunity to establish im going to if that means helping a few dummies along with mostly good people thats ok . my children will want to marry kind of hard to do if you are lone wolf with perhaps just your own family . as a lone wolf if even a small band of attackers was to try and take what i have it would be difficult to stop (basic military reality)and if they were stopped whos to say that they would not be back with more attackers or hiding for sniped shot. Its very difficult as it is to survive grow your own food raise your own animals let alone haveing to look over your shoulder every minute of every day we all need to sleep sometime

hoarder | 04-25-2007 10:14 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 585321) If you find one, please let me know.
Roger that. I think we can forget about our once great home state of Texas. I'm thinking Wyomng, Montana, Idaho, Utah, Oregon, Missouri or Tennessee.

Anty Ep | 04-25-2007 10:33 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 585354) In your opinion, what has gone south with respect to Texas? Too many systemites or too many Mexicans?...? Missouri is way to fascist for me. If they pull you over there without a DRIVER LICENSE they take you straight to jail. And if you're a 'repeat offender' in such a case, they've been known to mete out serious prison time for this mala en prohibita *crime* in Missouri. In Texas, not only are we holding ground, we're making forward progress on this issue and others.
the massive abundance of illegals is what is making "forward progress" on the drivers license issue since most of them will not have it, or will not have a valid one at least, and the politicians pandering to them will push policies that give you cover too. so there is an opportunity for "off the matrix" individuals like yourself to blend into the masses of mestizos swarming across the border. texas was always a place where people went to lose their official identity, it served this purpose for Anglos even back when it was still a Spanish territory

GOLD DUCK | 04-25-2007 10:47 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups QWAK,One simple question here. How LONG do you estimate the UNPREPARED can SURVIVE? :albertein Nature has a way of THINING out POPULATIONS and humans have OVER POPULATED and abused the inviroment far too long. For some foolish reason people see them selves as OUT of the LOOP and not a part of nature, the CLEANISING will happen, it can NOT be stoped. Yes it may be nessary to DEFEND what you GOT for a short time, but IF no one KNOWS you GOT what you GOT, it is not likely many will show up to RIP you OFF! KEEP your MOUTH SHUT and AVOID trying to convince others around you to JOIN in or even CONFERM your THINKING and what YOU believe, because it creates the PROBLEM which you are trying to devise ways and plans of confronting! AVOIDING problems is much better than trying to find ways to SOLVE THEM!:thinkey: :proud: Natural forces will do the vast majority of KILLING that needs doing and NATURE don't need your help to get it done! Keep a LOW PROFILE don't ADVERTISE it will get you coustemers YOU don't want! When it comes down to IT, each will SURVIVE or NOT, based on their own ABILITIES and perhaps a little luck but being PREPARED and PREPOSITIONED and living as IF it has already happened as much as you can, will make LUCK a smaller factor in the EQUASION! AVOID the PROBLEMS now and you got less problems to solve later!:proud: the DUCK

Turner-son | 04-25-2007 10:49 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 585370) That's not anywhere near reality.
Must be nice to know everything.

hoarder | 04-25-2007 11:06 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 585354) In your opinion, what has gone south with respect to Texas? Too many systemites or too many Mexicans?...? Missouri is way to fascist for me. If they pull you over there without a DRIVER LICENSE they take you straight to jail. And if you're a 'repeat offender' in such a case, they've been known to mete out serious prison time for this mala en prohibita *crime* in Missouri. In Texas, not only are we holding ground, we're making forward progress on this issue and others.
You're way ahead of me on legal-eagleism. My criteria is based on demographics, taxes and freedom. Demographics are the most important, IMO because the state government of any state will be staffed by minorities commensurate with the state population (plus 15%) and regardless of what the laws are, I don't want to be regulated by minorities who are aware of my beliefs. Laws have limited value. Public officials simply lie and/or ignore the law and there is little I can do about it because the media won't point scrutiny at them when the victim is white. I have learned contempt for public officials whether they are federal, state or county, but over the past few years I have been spending summers in Montana and found that the bureaucrats and cops there are not only polite, they are helpful and volunteer information. The difference? Demographics. As things get worse I don't want to be "processed" by people who want to "screw whitey", especially when they have been made aware of my beliefs. Maybe you have more confidence in laws and have the skills to use them in your favor, I don't have either.

Anty Ep | 04-25-2007 11:57 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 585370) That's not anywhere near reality.
that meaning what of the five or six points I made? looks like from reading the GOP platform the issue of papers and licenses for illegals vs citizens is important enough to be mentioned http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=us it's sure in heck a big deal in other states-- here discussion of a "drivers certificate" proposed for illegals in illinois http://www.dailysouthtown.com/news/k...71PKD1.article its a pretty big issue in California too evidently http://www.californiaprogressreport....negger_31.html reality is right there my good fellow -- illegals dont like driver's licenses. they are 100% with you on that.

damoc | 04-25-2007 12:02 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by GOLD DUCK (Post 585395) QWAK,One simple question here. How LONG to you estimate the UNPREPARED can SURVIVE? :albertein Nature has a way of THINING out POPULATIONS and humans have OVER POPULATED and abused the inviroment far too long. For some foolish reason people see them selves as OUT of the LOOP and not a part of nature, the CLEANISING will happen, it can NOT be stoped. Yes it may be nessary to DEVEND what you GOT for a short time, but IF no one KNOWS you GOT what you GOT, it is not likely many will show up to RIP you OFF! KEEP your MOUTH SHUT and AVOID trying to convince others around you to JOIN in or even CONFERM your THINKING and what YOU believe, because it creates the PROBLEM which you are trying to devise ways and plans of confronting! AVOIDING problems is much better than trying to fine ways to SOLVE THEM!:thinkey: :proud: Natural forces will do the vast majority of KILLING that needs doing and NATURE don't need your help to get it done! Keep a LOW PROFILE don't ADVERTISE it will get you coustemers YOU don't want! When it comes down to IT, each will SURVIVE or NOT, based on their own ABILITIES and perhaps a little luck but being PREPARED and PREPOSITIONED and living as IF it has already happened as much as you can, will make LUCK a smaller factor in the EQUASION! AVOID the PROBLEMS now and you got less problems to solve later!:proud: the DUCK
one simple answer about a month (barring bullet)and much longer in rural areas with abundance of stock more than enough time to destroy many prepared lone wolfs (unless they are very isolated or well hidden) as far as living like it has already happened I guess I am in all likelyhood i will be doing post what I am doing now. I dont advertise or try to organise neighbors now (most would think im a nutcase) I dont believe in "survival groups" im talking about having some trade preps and knowledge that can help the small local comunity to survive. or do i bar myself inside and watch with loaded gun as my neighbors starve and myself to because i am so concerned with defending my preps i cannot exit the house to farm or raise livestock??

RiverRat | 04-25-2007 12:29 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups :coo_mal: OK...I've read every post on this thread and want to add one thing...speaking of Defectives... Forget the Lone Wolf,forget the Group....throw theory out the window. It's time for truth or consequences...as part of a group or as an individual makes no difference...answer the following questions. 1-Do you have the guts to pull the trigger and shoot to kill anyone and everyone that poses a potential threat to you and your family ? 2-Can you kill a dozen as easily as one ? 3-Can you get up the next morning and kill a dozen more ? 4-Can you go to sleep every night and sleep like a baby ? 5-Can you overcome the moral and religious conundrum of justified murder in the name of self protection ?...I didn't say self defense. If you answered no to any of the above...you just might be dead. It's attitude people...to terminate without malice and keep an attitude of extreme indifference to death is a mindset...it's just a job that has to be done...like mowing the grass or washing your car... Some never get it...I left a lot of friends behind in Nam who never got it fast enough...some of the lucky ones came home in body bags...others we left behind because there weren't enough pieces left to fill a shoebox...I came home alive. I got it...and fast. That was real war...this subject is about possible urban war survival scenarios. Bullets will kill the same over here as they did in SE Asia...how many of you have been shot with an AK 47 and lived to tell about it ? It's not a game people...dead is dead...your family will miss you,but you're not coming back...they are left behind at the mercy of the last man standing. Get your priorities straight...acquiring a survival mindset means looking deep into your personality and being honest about your abilities and how much horror you can stomach when the rubber hits the road. And it is horror...make no mistake about it...you're either in it to win at any cost or you're dead before you pick up a weapon. You make the choice...it's them or you. There can only be one winner... :signs14: :signs14: :signs14:

Kahlil Gibran | 04-25-2007 01:54 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 584970) I think you "misunderestimate" the sheeple's capacity to kill. When they are under pressure and affraid they won't get their bread buttered they will lash out against their own and anybody else. Backstabbing is their way of life. Letting sheeple into your life is just plain dangerous. Likewise I have no use for a stone cold killer that can't tell the sharks from the guppies. Both these groups are unstable defectives and can't be relied upon for anything. Unfortunately between the two you have the majority of the population covered. Quality over quantity, always.
http://goldismoney.info/forums/showt...hlight=raccoon In that thread you take great care and time in dealing with a renegade raccoon that is eating your chickens. It would be a very interesting debate between you and RiverRat on the topic of killing. Some of us would have no hesitation in simply solving that raccoon problem with a .22 bullet. Interesting issue. Basically the very purpose of the coming SHTF is drastic population reduction. Killing other people seems to be the primary function of population reduction. Might as well decide our Triage values now. Anty Ep addresses the church as a type of group. Who is better at this then the Mormons? FORMING SURVIVAL GROUPS is a very important debate and exploring the factors here now is time well spent. Debating these issues now can help us all form better plans, philosophies, and values. Time to question our own thoughts.

REV127 | 04-25-2007 05:26 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahlil Gibran (Post 585596) http://goldismoney.info/forums/showt...hlight=raccoon In that thread you take great care and time in dealing with a renegade raccoon that is eating your chickens. Some of us would have no hesitation in simply solving that raccoon problem with a .22 bullet. Interesting issue.
Yes, I am well aware. I read such accounts on all manner of homesteading and survivalist boards. SSS. Most of you even think it makes you "hard." I on the other hand have no respect for that sort of irresponsible disregard for the greater world around you. In fact I consider it a defective trait, one perfectly analogous to that which threatens freedom and stability in our world. There is no capacity to find harmony. In this particular case the raccoon simply is what it is, a wild creature in a wild area. It is my responsibility as a farmer to protect my livestock and crops. The raccoons were functioning correctly as predators, I may not have appreciated their selection of prey but that is a seperate issue. I did not function correctly as a farmer, my enclosure designs had exploitable flaws. Hesitation is also misleading. I sought alternatives, I did not hesitate. My land is now poorer, something that people with your outlook will never understand though it will extract its toll on you regardless. Quote:
It would be a very interesting debate between you and RiverRat on the topic of killing.
We come from different backgrounds and we've worked for different people but it would seem we are mostly in agreement. I'm maybe just a little more dispassionate about it than him perhaps. Quote:
Basically the very purpose of the coming SHTF is drastic population reduction. Killing other people seems to be the primary function of population reduction. Might as well decide our Triage values now.
I agree philosophically that it seems the manmade cataclysms are part of a system of checks and balances originating from a source much greater than Man. It isn't really my primary function to effect that culling. The herd manages that on its own as inescapable consequences of their anti-life defective traits. I was only a ever small fish in a big pond but quite a lot of effort and money was invested in trying to destroy my ability to discriminate. I always had my own agenda and ultimately that saved me. I have the ability to tell the sharks from the guppies and there is no confusion over a righteous kill in my mind. I feel no anger, joy or sorrow. I also understand the power to create and nurture is far greater than the power to injur and destroy. This is very likely why destruction is the only recourse of defectives, they are simply not strong enough for anything else.

Kahlil Gibran | 04-25-2007 05:52 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Thanks REV127 for your thoughtful comments. As we consider the topic of this thread...Forming Survival Groups...it becomes clear that actually finding other people who share our values is quite difficult. I think it unfortunate that we start labeling opposing views/values as being from "defectives" since one man's church is another man's cult. It is this very demonizing of "others" that forces us to form defensive groups in the first place. The more we actually examine our own criteria the more difficult it seems to find compatible companions to form a Survival Group. We all seem to display more differences than similarities. Myself included. :smile: anyone have a counterpoint?

REV127 | 04-25-2007 06:33 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Yes indeed, coherent culture is a vital component of any stable group. This is why I am strongly opposed to the very concept of nation-states, especially ridiculously large ones like China, Russia, America, etc. There is simply no possible way their leadership can reflect the disparate values of the many citizens spread out across an area nearly the size of a continent. It is completely ridiculous. I much prefer the city-state or even tribal model. Just because two or more groups can make good neighbors does not mean they should live in the same house. The other side of this is why I said in another recent thread that family is more than blood and tribe is more than genetics. My use of "defective" is based on logic, not conviction. It does make the assumption that stable, free society is the goal but objectively anything else enters a realm of various shades of evil. It is also a rather large view, I often think in terms of centuries and millenia where time and repetition act as leverage, small inputs ultimately yielding great outputs. Take killing a marauding raccoon Vs taking ownership of the deficiencies in your practice, for instance. Yes, it is a small thing to kill the coon and slay the monster of the day, but what then? Another predator will take its place and the original problem remains. You can continue to slaughter anything that might prey on your livestock and eventually it will result in the extinction of all predators in your area. This in turn will yield an eruption in herbivore and rodent populations who will now be in a position to devestate your crops as well as your stores. You can shoot, shovel and shutup till they're all dead, too. By the time you are finally through you will have destroyed an entire ecosystem, and for what? To enjoy your silent spring, stand in the isolation of a wasteland? I endeavor to think and act towards goals greater than myself. Many others think only of themselves and then only at the immediate momment. One of these patterns of behaviour has a future and the other does not. I do not want those who only consider their own immediate personal needs in my group. They are unstable, unsustainable and when things go bad they will turn on you. This is why I call them defectives, because ultimately they don't work.

Kahlil Gibran | 04-25-2007 10:51 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 585911) I endeavor to think and act towards goals greater than myself. Many others think only of themselves and then only at the immediate momment. One of these patterns of behaviour has a future and the other does not. I do not want those who only consider their own immediate personal needs in my group. They are unstable, unsustainable and when things go bad they will turn on you. This is why I call them defectives, because ultimately they don't work.
After this impending large-scale die-off occurs we can discuss the gentle notion of being in Harmony with Mother Nature over a cup of rose hip tea. But during this impending large-scale die-off I would not want you on sentry duty protecting me, my family, or friends. I imagine that the Amish will quickly be overrun too. :knuddel: sure you can share my family's limited food...bring your friends too!

hoarder | 04-25-2007 11:08 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups I don't understand why everyone foresees a chaos scenario where our greatest risk comes from other citizens killing us for food. The changes we've seen in the last 60 years weren't accidental, they were all calculated and engineered behind the scenes. Trust me, TPTB will not be surprised when the dollar collapses. It will be timed in conjunction with other events to herd us into world government. World war and economic collapse will likely happen at the same time. There will only be enough chaos for the masses to scream out "Please protect us by implementing world government!" . There will be much more CONTROL than chaos. TPTB are not going to relinquish their command and go hide somewhere because the dollar finds it's real value. Our greatest threat will come from JBT's and quite probably "foreign assets" like Chinese troops "protecting" us permanently. Now....can we start discussing how to prepare for the real probable scenario?

hoarder | 04-25-2007 11:18 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Remember what it says in the Protocols; "one third of our subjects will keep the rest under observation". We see the intensification of police forces, don't we? They will not be starving or quitting like in New Orleans because if they quit they starve and if they confiscate supplies from evil hoarders they will eat. If TPTB get their way, the JBT's will ensure the death of everyone else. They are authoritarians and will believe ANY damn thing their superiors tell them. That's how authoritarians think. Don't you people get it? Remember what happened to the Ukranians. History repeats itself.

hoarder | 04-25-2007 11:21 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups I'm not through ranting, dammit! I'll be back! ....puff...puff..

damoc | 04-25-2007 11:26 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups I guess I believe that chaos is the natural state of life and that order is unnatural and imposed and the larger the scale of order the less likely that it will be lasting. maybee tptb are trying to impose world government but in the face of nature it is not sustainable.

hoarder | 04-25-2007 11:41 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by damoc (Post 586157) I guess I believe that chaos is the natural state of life and that order is unnatural and imposed and the larger the scale of order the less likely that it will be lasting. maybee tptb are trying to impose world government but in the face of nature it is not sustainable.
The only nature that will apply to human events is human nature. It's human nature for people to do what they percieve to be in their best interests. Their perceptions will be easily influenced by mass media as always. It's human nature to prefer stability over chaos and war. "Stability" will be packaged as world government and the masses will be given enough war and chaos and hunger to make them beg for this "stability" . The script has already been written. It's obvious to some. The end result will show us what the original intention was. I don't want to wait till we get there and then try to adapt. We either have to resist early or we will perish.

REV127 | 04-25-2007 11:47 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahlil Gibran (Post 586123) After this impending large-scale die-off occurs we can discuss the gentle notion of being in Harmony with Mother Nature over a cup of rose hip tea. But during this impending large-scale die-off I would not want you on sentry duty protecting me, my family, or friends. I imagine that the Amish will quickly be overrun too. :knuddel: sure you can share my family's limited food...bring your friends too!
I never offered.

damoc | 04-26-2007 12:13 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 586166) The only nature that will apply to human events is human nature. It's human nature for people to do what they percieve to be in their best interests. Their perceptions will be easily influenced by mass media as always. It's human nature to prefer stability over chaos and war. "Stability" will be packaged as world government and the masses will be given enough war and chaos and hunger to make them beg for this "stability" . The script has already been written. It's obvious to some. The end result will show us what the original intention was. I don't want to wait till we get there and then try to adapt. We either have to resist early or we will perish.
To order requires energy in one form or another currently I percieve the USA to be kept in order by promises of social security or stock market numbers other countries can/have been or are kept ordered by the threat of violence or starvation. both are methods of controll or order both require the expenditure of energy I think for the USA this comes in the form of cheap oil that has built the USA other countries this may be in the form of some other natural resource to feed and pay the required army. but ultimately it comes down to how long can the natural resource support the order i believe that fresh water will run out and that oil will also run out both of these things will cause famine and when the method of order is gone collapse into chaos will be rapid and tptb will not even be able to controll it sorry if this is off topic

Jeffs47 | 04-26-2007 12:22 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Holly crap! This is the first post by you I have ever read where I didn't want to wring your neck after reading it ;) Good show! :elefant:

Kahlil Gibran | 04-26-2007 12:40 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by damoc (Post 586194) but ultimately it comes down to how long can the natural resource support the order i believe that fresh water will run out and that oil will also run out both of these things will cause famine and when the method of order is gone collapse into chaos will be rapid and tptb will not even be able to control it. sorry if this is off topic
damoc is absolutely on topic and he does get it: FAMINE :congrats: best single paragraph posted in this thread so far!

electric-amish | 04-26-2007 12:46 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 585354) In your opinion, what has gone south with respect to Texas? Too many systemites or too many Mexicans?...? Missouri is way to fascist for me. If they pull you over there without a DRIVER LICENSE they take you straight to jail. And if you're a 'repeat offender' in such a case, they've been known to mete out serious prison time for this mala en prohibit *crime* in Missouri.
Not exactly--I have been on the wrong side of this a number of times and never was shuffled off to the Huskow. I suspect the prison time would probably be a way to add time to a laundry list of crimes. It would not stand alone. However Missouri has some laws like this I don't like. I was hoping for Texas to keep up its movement and maybe if it succeeds it would be a destination for extended vacations. E-A

electric-amish | 04-26-2007 12:56 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahlil Gibran (Post 586123) . I imagine that the Amish will quickly be overrun too.
Watch it there man!!!!:coolbeer: There may be one out there that may suprise.:clap2: Electric-Amish

electric-amish | 04-26-2007 01:00 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 586228) I know of a case where a fellow did nothing more than be an 'repeat offender' for not having a DRIVER LICENSE and he got like 8 or 9 years in prison, and last I heard he was still in prison. Yeah, it's for real.
I've been in MO almost my whole life and have never heard of that. It could be, I don't hear everything, but man, a $250 attorney should have taken care of that. E-A

RiverRat | 04-26-2007 01:01 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups :yes: Law enforcement would have to beef up their numbers considerably to overcome their 5000 to 1 disadvantage in an all out civil war...I don't see that happening in my lifetime. Controlling a population by hunger and violence hits the wall when starvation overrides the threat of death to individuals and their loved ones...no government or military presence can maintain control because at that point it becomes mass genocide. TPTB do not want the physical infrastructure destroyed...there would be economic losses beyond acceptable limits...even so,there is a fine line where mass revolution tips the scales past the point of no return. Hoarder is quite correct in his assumption of a slow,controlled meltdown with serious consequences for everyone under a NWO. My take is different...TPTB have the system rigged in their favor and Congress is under their control...therefore every political effort to take back control is futile at this point...it's theoretically impossible. I have yet to see any evidence to support the contrary and have zero faith in the sheep waking up to find the walls built and America turned into a corporate dictatorship...which BTW...we're almost there now. I always wondered what living in Germany was like under the Nazis...I'm afraid we all may soon find out. :yes: :yes: :yes:

Kahlil Gibran | 04-26-2007 01:02 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahlil Gibran (Post 583629) this Article comes from the website that platinumdude found: http://survivalacres.com/wordpress/?p=583 Forming Survival Groups This is a continuance from Part I, Future Prep. Blog postings are usually meant to be short if they�re going to read at all. I don�t think anybody likes to read particurly long essays online. What I write next is based on many years of personal experience. Forming groups to survive the collapse is often inquired upon and this subject is very difficult to deal with. Most groups fail (over 95%) within two or three years (or even sooner). And that�s now, when tshtf isn�t �real� yet and the greater society remains viable out there to catch the pieces (people) that go spinning off from their fractured group attempts. Here is where most groups fail (in no particular order): 1) Unrealized expectations. Either these were not fully discussed, written down (important) and agreed upon, expectations are often unfilled, causing dissension, implosion and failure. 2) Lack of �localness�. Forming a group from �outsiders� is an almost certain recipe for disaster. The lack of local connections, customs, habits, expectations, and familiarity with all of the above, causes most �formed groups� from people scattered far and wide to fail. 3) Lack of funding. A serious lack of planning, expectations and foresight, lack of initial startup costs, etc. Individual members don�t make equal contributions in terms of resources, land, money and resentment develops. 4) Habits and belief systems. Smokers, dogs, religion, politics, work ethics, even scheduling habits. Slackers, wannabe�s, lazy and incompetent people should be avoided at all costs. 5) Relocation. This is a gigantic �biggie� which encompasses ALL of the above. Economic factors aside (which are monumental all by themselves) if resolved, still fails to account for the challenges and difficulties of relocation and the undue stress that this places upon ALL the participants. However, relocation is very often a prerequisite and thus, impossible to under estimate. 6) Familiarity. The lack of communication, understanding, expectations, realizations, habits, hangups, hanger on�s (extra family members, kids, troublesome friends, etc.) create extreme problems. Includes non-humans too (dogs, birds, cats, family �pets�). 7) Impatience and lack of bonding. Most groups form in a hurry, based on a perceived need and almost always, a sense of urgency, which fails to address ALL of the above. Such groups are destined for disaster and failure. Groups are stronger then individuals, but you must carefully consider what you�re asking for - and expecting. And what people say - and what they do are two entirely different things. Stress can produce the very worst and the very best in humans. You have to know that your fellow members won�t crack under pressure. Most of them probably will. I strongly advise AGAINST forming a group from people that do not live close by that you cannot get to know personally, intimately and slowly. Time is against you right now to do this, but I still hold this opinion based on years of personal experience. If you are going to form a group, start with family. Then close friends. And close neighbors. Beyond that, forget it. It probably won�t work. It almost never does. There are many different kinds of preparedness groups in the US, usually based around a common belief or perception. However, close examination will often reveal that the same belief is not enough. Nor is the same politics, religion or expectations. Most of these groups implode. The human dynamics come into play when you put people together and you quickly find out just how compatible you really are. I could (and have) written an entire book on this subject, so I suggest you carefully consider what you�re asking for. Don�t ask for a copy, I don�t circulate it anymore. Groups must hold common values, morals, beliefs and have clear lines of communication, leadership and problem resolution. All that, plus all of the above. Be careful. I am not advising against it, but this is a Pandora�s box and once opened, can be deadly. Remember, groups implode, killing off each other, sometimes literally. Massive pressure is also created by society, law enforcement and others from without. Eventually, cracks appear and self-destruction ensues. Your as well off, if not better, sticking with family, close neighbors and friends. These �groups� already have the �localness� requirement (essential), lines of communications, understanding of habits, belief systems, ethics and many other very important factors, including private property (even personal property). These groups are far from perfect (no group is), but they have a better foundation upon which to build then putting together relative strangers. I�m am certainly not against forming groups - in fact, I think they are essential. It�s the �how� they are formed that is often overlooked and what it means. I�d like to gently comment that the examples of camp, military, sports, college, business, etc., all have the same characteristic - and that is the support structure that exists within and without these �organizations�. Take away that support structure, ie., societal collapse, and all of that �outside help� that all of these organizations rely upon to function correctly and you have a sure-fire recipe for disaster. There have been even rogue military groups that have impoded with the surrounding support structure collapses. Groups function �best� when the surrounding infrastructure continues to provide. Take that away, and any group is subject to implosion. Which is in fact, exactly what happens when such organizations are stressed beyond their intended capacitity, capabilities and expectations. This scenario is extremely likely in our near future. Human relationships are built upon trust, communication, understanding and needs. This last point is almost always overlooked. A lot of people work because of needs, put up with a tyrant boss or crappy working hours based on this fact alone. Given the choice, they�d be doing something else. Which of course, is the option they choose at first chance. This can happen in a group too. They are in fact, already working for �survival� with a tremendous �outside support system� in place. Take away that outside support system (grocery stores, gas stations, doctors, cars, entertainment, comfort food (junk food), law enforcement, potentially all of it) and they won�t be showing up for work or anything else. In fact, who and what they really are will reveal itself rather quickly and sometimes quite violently. This is why �knowing� your support group intimately is going to be so important - people that can truly be relied upon and trusted and won�t leave you in a lurch or turn against you. I cannot emphasize this enough. In crisis, the issue of needs (survival) becomes of paramount importance and the concept of �self� asserts itself in myriad ways. The lack of a supporting network will really change people and I can pretty much state with assurance - you won�t like it. And they won�t like you either. The change will be abrupt, brutal and harsh. Survival is personal warfare, not in the sense of �attack and destroy�, but in the sense that all the rules are thrown out. All of them. We saw this with 500 law enforcement officers quitting during the Katrina disaster. It just didn�t matter anymore when their world was totally destroyed. We saw looters, assassinations, rapes, murders and probably much more. And that was in a regional disaster, actually fairly localized compared to what could occur on a global scale now. Loyalties got thrown out with the dirty flood waters and people reverted to self-preservation mode very quickly. Of course, not everyone did (or will), but many did, bearing in mind that they all expected rescue. What about when there is no more rescue? No more larger society to come tooling along and fix the problems? This is when things will really reveal themselves, the will to live, struggle, survive and go on will be the daily challenge, hour by hour, minute by minute. It�s when the food runs out (or runs low) that people will start getting really afraid (and really wierd). Food is comfort, safety and security. Food is life itself, few really seem to consider it�s critical importance or fragile nature. Civilizations and tribes throughout history have risen and fallen according to the food supply (duh!). I emphasize this because that is the very issue at risk. Humans can live without power, and humans can even cope with climate change (to an extent), but 6.8 billion humans cannot live without food that was raised with cheap power, cheap petroleum, vast distribution systems and predictable climates. When these go away, and they will, cheap energy, vast crop lands, affordable transportation, distribution systems and stocked shelves disappear, desperation will set in. And then violence will set in, with a vengeance. America�s homeless rarely starve to death because they have sources of nutrition available to them (and because we won�t let them starve, but that won�t last into the future). I�m not suggesting that it�s pleasant or easy, but they do manage to live, because there is still a support structure in place that they can glean off of. Collapse will change all of that, this paradigm of a vast, integrated and functioning infrastructure that provides for the minimal or maximum needs (depending on your status in life) won�t be there anymore. Food is the basic element (and water of course). As collapse becomes more enhanced, you can expect food rationing and empty shelves in time. During disasters now, this always happens. And when the commercially produced food runs out, desperation will set in. Cold showers, or skinny dipping in a lake are tolerable, but hunger is not. Expect people to fight each other and wipe out most of the wildlife. What climate change doesn�t kill, humans will. And then they will turn on each other, some sooner rather then later. I only want to make the point that crisis is a time of turning, a time of revealing what character is in people and whether or not you can trust them with your life, or if they will be selfish and sacrifice you because of their needs. It can a very innocuous and innocent request that can get you killed. Let�s just say that a pandemic outbreak has hit the States, everybody everywhere is quarantined and ordered to stay home. What happens when you�re neighbor comes over? What do you do? If he�s clueless, he won�t realize the danger he represents, just knocking on your door, asking for something to eat. Or water. Or medicine. Or toilet paper. Innoccuous request, but under pandemic, absolutely deadly. You need people who are paying attention and understand their �role� and �responsibility�, otherwise, you risk disaster. So, our imaginary clueless neighbor, decides he doesn�t like you ignorning him and figures he�ll just help himself, smashing through a window and trying to enter your house to find whatever it was he needed. Suddenly, your isolation and quarantine is broken and you�re all in danger. You�ve got a big problem - brought upon you against your best desires. You�re going to have to handle it. This is why trust is so important. Hand in hand with trust is communication. This tiny example reveals that you have to �know� your neighbors, they can�t be putting you (and then themselves) at extreme risk. Expect a lot of people to continue to do some really stupid things. This will only worsen as collapse ensues. None of this applies to the same degree when there is an �outside support� structure in place. Your neighbor can simply go knock on another door, walk to the store, call for help, something, anything. He�s got other places to turn to. And so do you, if it happens to be you that needs something or help. But take that all away, take away all forms of social organizations and agreements, all available goods and distribution points, all means of safe travel, all means of constraints and limitations, potentially everything, and the social dynamics change radically, instantly. Trust cannot be bought in a survival sitatuation, before or afterwards. Trust is earned, the hard way through time, committment, loyalty and experience. Societal collapse will expose every lie, distortion and assumption you can possibly imagine. Trust will be suddenly of paramount importance, but the factors necessary (time) will be gone. Get started now if you intend to do anything at all. You�ve little real time left and what remains needs to be used wisely. Family has always been the core for groups and will remain so. Blood is thicker then water. For most families, the commitment is already there and the desire for the family to live will be there too. Important reminder and a good code to live by. Watch what people actually do. Applies to absolutely everyone. Not what they say, but what they do. This reveals their true heart and intentions and why you can see right through them so easily. Lying, backstabbing and gossip in a survival situation will get you very dead. Pay attention to this now. Survival groups will form, but I no longer believe that small groups will survive. I�m not suggesting that the commentary above is wrong, I�m stating that small, isolated survival groups will have a very hard time of it because of a lack of diverse skills, security, infighting, resources and even opportunities to �better� then situation. Community survival has many advantages to small groups and I think this is a far better solution then winging it on your own or with your family. But even with the community, there is still the core groups. Community survival will (probably) be built upon these core groups, made up of many families. This is in effect, what we have today in our small towns. A community will have a better chance because of the diversification of skills, labor, land and resources. They will also receive and wield authority and recognition of that authority, whereas a rogue band of survivalist won�t. This is going to be pretty important as lawlessness will be very prevelant. Communities will also be able to setup barter, trade and labor exchange (even slavery, ie., �work for food� if it degenerates to that). Medicine and medical treatment will be top priorities for the members. I�d expect fiefdoms and warlords eventually too. History has many examples of nations resorting to such �law and order�. Law and order will be replaced with what works. A lot of our stupid laws and rules, permits, regulations and restrictions will be tossed right out the window. And a lot of would-be tyrants will try to take control. Get rid of them, by any means necessary (I am serious). They are and will be a serious danger to everyone. The community will function best when everyone works. Respect is earned, not implied or demanded. Leaders that do not lead, but dictate, orchestrate or tyrate should not be tolerated by anyone. We�ve got enough of these leaches now, there won�t be any need for them in the future. Communities will also have far better growing capabilties then small bands, marshalling labor and resources on a larger scale. They will also be able to deal with defensive issues against raiding parties and �outlaws� (the small survivalist bands) far better then smaller groups. There will be both safety and oppression in numbers (just like now). This is one of the big advantages of communities over ecovillages by the way, I�ve yet to hear about an ecovillage that is prepared to meet the needs of the surrounding community, or even to adequately defend itself. Ecovillages will be quickly overrun and consumed by hungry people. The solution for survival isn�t a loner approach, or even a small band or tribe (unless you truly manage to isolate yourselves and stay that way and are willing to work like hell trying to stay alive). The solution is community based. Find a community that you can become a part of and integrate yourself and family into that community. This community will need to have plentiful water as stated in Part I of this series. It will also require fertile soil, something I don�t think I�ve mentioned yet. Importantly, the community will need to come up to speed very quickly with the issues of community survival if it is not already. Some communities are already �on their way�, particularily in Cascadia. I don�t know all the details, but they are working towards sustainable living and have both plentiful water, good soils and decent growing seasons (for now, climate change may change that, thus you may find yourself moving again in time). The big problem with Cascadia is population, there are simply far too many people there and nearby that will migrate in to feed. This will be a huge problem in the US especially and in Europe. However, most communities are totally clueless on sustainability and will think you�re nuts to even suggest it. This is where the survival groups will come into play. Picking a community, forming survival groups with the intention of �converting� the township as circumstances force them is a good strategy. They�ll get on board because they will have to. And if they don�t, they will have either left, killed you, or died themselves, but they�re not going to ignore the collapse, nobody is.
Meanwhile back at the Survival Retreat...

electric-amish | 04-26-2007 01:06 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups If survival groups ever got going strong I would expect them to be targeted like the Militias were in the 80s. Knowing your group would become paramount. E-A

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Kahlil Gibran | 04-26-2007 01:10 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Nobody will have a lawyer in their SURVIVAL GROUP. :offtopic:

electric-amish | 04-26-2007 01:14 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 586256) The moment you retain a liar...er, I mean lawyer, you surrender to the jurisdiction of the court (B.A.R. members are officers of the court) and cannot mount any jurisdictional challenges. If he had done that, he would have been compelled to accept the benefit (and therefore the liabilities associated with any benefits).
OK-- but would he be in Jail for 9 years? I'm serious about my freedom and Jail isn't in the program. E-A

____hoot____ | 04-26-2007 02:00 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups The Amish in my area are armed; how well I don't know, but some that live close to them think that they take too many deer as is. Their's would be the best survival groups all ready formed that I am aware of in my region. Blood,religion,language and life style are all powerfull glues along with self employment close to the land. Saw a scary scene the other day as I was coming out of a Amish bulk foods store with a big box of food in my arms; a forklift powered around me at 15 mph driven by a well seasoned 9 to 11 year old 70 pound amish boy with a deft hand on his spinner knob. That kid has as good or better chance of makeing it as anyone.

lessoil=+pm | 04-26-2007 07:34 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups REV127 says; "This is why I am strongly opposed to the very concept of nation-states, especially ridiculously large ones like China, Russia, America, etc. There is simply no possible way their leadership can reflect the disparate values of the many citizens spread out across an area nearly the size of a continent. It is completely ridiculous. I much prefer the city-state or even tribal model. Just because two or more groups can make good neighbors does not mean they should live in the same house." Our time in city/states is so small comparatively. Our communication abilities as REV also points to is oriented to very small groups 2-6 people; or a tribal grouping of groups ,say 75-100 max. As well this relates to how we treat the ecosystem around us; another point REV is making.. If we can't see/know the consequences of our smokestacks we are not apt to adjust for our pollution. As cheap energy wanes, or energy is not available it seems to me we will gravitate to the basic grouping that has been our heritage. How we get through the upcoming bottlenecks/declines/collapses best groupwise will probably be close to the historic models;but we will still be part of the thrashing city/states which will still wield great power. Major unknowns here. good thread for very important issues to consider. thanks.

hoarder | 04-26-2007 08:11 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Damoc, Order doesn't come from the wealth of natural resources, many poor countries have order. Order comes from the ability of the herders to herd the cattle. Just because there is going to be less grass for the herd to feed on it does not mean the herders are unprepared to continue herding. TPTB have gotten this far by having long term plans and goals, unlike the cattle. It may be difficult for us cattle to envision someone having a 200 year plan, but longer term plans are just a function of high intellect. We have very capable herders. As the resources dry up more cattle will go to the slaughterhouse. They have already thought this through and through. They took notes during their Bolshevik revolution and know all the tricks. Moooooooooooooooooo.

hoarder | 04-26-2007 08:22 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat (Post 586252) :yes: Law enforcement would have to beef up their numbers considerably to overcome their 5000 to 1 disadvantage in an all out civil war...I don't see that happening in my lifetime.
I do. TPTB have been creating more laws and beefing up law enforcement and building larger prisons (and "camps"), they have started utilizing the military for police functions and when they decide to use "foreign assets" their power will be almost unlimited. Can you envision a hundred Chinese troops poking around on you place asking if you are a hoarder? One sheep dog can herd hundreds of sheep and one sheepherder using whistles, tone of voice and body language can control a dozen sheep dogs. Any sheep that get out of line will be made an example of. Are you going to be made an example?

Anty Ep | 04-26-2007 08:31 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahlil Gibran (Post 585596) Anty Ep addresses the church as a type of group. Who is better at this then the Mormons? FORMING SURVIVAL GROUPS is a very important debate and exploring the factors here now is time well spent. Debating these issues now can help us all form better plans, philosophies, and values. Time to question our own thoughts.
That's right on. Boy the Mormons sure are fantastic on this topic. Some of y'all are Mormons I'm sure. My wife's got some in the extended family, they are really fantastic people. Sure, I think some of their religious beliefs are crazy, they prolly feel the same bout mine. But, fantastic people I have found, on the balance. Another religious group that's big on laying back canned goods and such are the Seventh Day adventists. Sabbatarian heretics, in my Catholic view but again, I have found them to be most kind, honest, and congenial folk in general.

Anty Ep | 04-26-2007 08:34 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahlil Gibran (Post 586123) .. I imagine that the Amish will quickly be overrun too. !
the amazing thing is that the Amish-- who live "off the grid" as a community, literally-- (though they often use batteries and horse drawn electrical generating equipment, little known fact among the "english") -- the Amish are pacifists, part of what got them tossed out of the Holy Roman Empire in the first place. And yet, they are good at protecting their own. Rarely do you see a buck running wild in Amish country. And I'm not talkin a 4 legged buck here either, lol.

Anty Ep | 04-26-2007 08:37 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 586262) KG, have you read any of Ragnar Benson's books regarding the survival retreat? He has some excellent and deliberate thought processes regarding this, on a par with this fellow if not ahead of him. There will always be societies of some sort, there will always be conflicts and controversies in any society, and there will always be someone there to help resolve those conflicts/controversies. And under the Law of Nature, people will always be ultimately held responsible and accountable for their actions.
thats right, there is natural law, and the laws of men do well to reflect that natural law. the formation and execution of just laws is the art and philosophy of jurisprudence. one who merely speaks or represents another is just an advocate; but an advocate that is educated in and gives due regard to jurisprudence, as defined, is a lawyer today the word "lawyer" is used indiscriminately to cover lots of money-grubbing liars who have no regard for jurisprudence and flatly reject the idea of natural law as such, altogther. they are more like a bunch of haggling talmudic scholars niggling over whether it's ok to bind the teats of a goat on the Shabbot or not.

damoc | 04-26-2007 10:34 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 586431) Damoc, Order doesn't come from the wealth of natural resources, many poor countries have order. Order comes from the ability of the herders to herd the cattle. Just because there is going to be less grass for the herd to feed on it does not mean the herders are unprepared to continue herding. TPTB have gotten this far by having long term plans and goals, unlike the cattle. It may be difficult for us cattle to envision someone having a 200 year plan, but longer term plans are just a function of high intellect. We have very capable herders. As the resources dry up more cattle will go to the slaughterhouse. They have already thought this through and through. They took notes during their Bolshevik revolution and know all the tricks. Moooooooooooooooooo.
I think the ability of a herder to herd is also a factor of food for the herd and the herder and a supply of good trained herd dogs I know a herder can easily herd their herd to slaughter or starvation I also know some sort of sudden shock like a gunshot or thunder can send a herd into an uncontrollable stampede.mutany revolution riot all examples of human stampede.I have little doubt that tbtb have a much longer term plan than anyone ever hears about it just makes sense but i believe the best they can hope for/ prepare for is to regain controll after the stampede of humanity.for me its only a matter of how best to survive the stampede of humanity either by community,group or solo after the stampede is yet another unknown what method of controll will tptb employ where I am? Is a small isolated rural comunity going to be bothered with or is this a better reason to go it solo? after the stampede I would assume tptb would have maintained controll of raw materials and some complex/technical manufacturing (that would be my plan) so trade for "needed goods" could once again be the main method of controll.

hoarder | 04-26-2007 10:47 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Yes there certainly may be a human stampede of sorts and if there is you can be assured that 100 million Chinese troops will be on our shores lickety-split at the invitation of our rulers. So again I say the probable scenario is NOT one where our greatest enemy will be other US citizens wanting to kill us for our food.

damoc | 04-26-2007 10:56 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups assuming you are correct logistically how long would it take to move 100 million chinese here and would not tptb be quite pleased to see a major pop decrease in the USA being as it seems to me we are the consumers no longer the producers.production has already moved to china where it can be protected just a thought need to work talk later

Abouthadit | 04-26-2007 11:04 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by damoc (Post 586619) assuming you are correct logistically how long would it take to move 100 million chinese here and would not tptb be quite pleased to see a major pop decrease in the USA being as it seems to me we are the consumers no longer the producers.production has already moved to china where it can be protected just a thought need to work talk later
How to move 100 million Chinese here? After they have surrepticiously landed and built up their assets in Mexico, they use the NAFTA super highway to do an overland blitzkreig straight through to Calgary. Now I get it.

hoarder | 04-26-2007 11:40 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by damoc (Post 586619) assuming you are correct logistically how long would it take to move 100 million chinese here
More than likely the propaganda has already been imbedded in Chinese minds, it should be easy to bait them to come here. They have been so poor for so long that being baited with green toilet paper, fantasies of White women and anger over debts unpaid and envy of our wealth will be like leading them on a leash. There are soooooo many people over there....many more men than women. Getting 100 million to voluntarily come here as "peacekeepers" to "ensure stability" and "fight racism" is an agenda that will be met without resistance from either side.

Kahlil Gibran | 04-26-2007 11:52 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahlil Gibran (Post 583629) this Article comes from the website that platinumdude found: http://survivalacres.com/wordpress/?p=583 Forming Survival Groups
It really doesn't matter in this thread who will be trying to do us harm during the Famine. Whoever they are they will be trying to take our limited food. Bees disappearing means no food. Mexican hoards. Chinese wearing UN blue helmets. It does not matter how/why the Famine arrives but how we can form successful groups to deal with the Famine. The original post says that 95% of groups fail. Thus the need in forming a successful group for mutual security and protection. The topic is forming successful survival groups. If we exhausted that topic then this thread can branch. What makes a successful survival group? Is one even possible? :smile:

GOLD DUCK | 04-26-2007 11:58 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups QWAK, Just a thought here that seems to always be left out as one intencly focuses on the aspects of likely DISASTER of one form or another, the MIND SET and BELIEF SYSTEM you have established in YOUR MIND comes WITH you like a SHADOW --- you can't OUT run IT or hide from IT! A MIND SHADOW is mostly made of FEAR that absorbs or blocks out LIGHT (inlightenment) It is that SHADOW that moves most people to cling to others who SHARE the same FEARS and like an INHERITED disease it gets handed down threw generations but can also be spread easaly to others who are suceptable to INFECTION or temporarly in remision after taking the CURE ---- COURAGE and TOLERENCE and some other powerfull ingredients are in that PERSCRIPTION! Perhaps each should ask them selves IF they are realy just RELOCATING and building NEW WALLS some ware else? Are they just wanting as much HELP from others as they can get, to BUILD the NEW WALLS? Are they THEM SELVES just becoming another "BRICK in the WALL" for the "FEAR SHADOW" to be PROJECTED ON?:questionm :questionm :questionm :questionm :questionm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kajIU...elated&search= If you are so willing to CHANGE locations and DO what ever it takes to "GET it DONE" and SURVIVE (your way of corse) WHY NOT also decide to CHANGE your MIND about how you SEE,percieve and RELATE to ALL that you regard as apart FROM you? HUMmmmmmmmmmmm Change your MIND change your WORLD! :grin: If you DON'T change your MIND ------ the SHADOW :afraid: will find YOU!:haha: :haha: :haha: Ultimitly we all stand alone. THIS is only a temporary IDENTITY, but we all sence and sort of know, there MUST be MORE but we just can't REMEMBER ----- WARE we REALY came from ---- we just got a lot of good stories that have WIDOM in them. :albertein :thinkey: We stand FOR things, we stand agenst THINGS,we stand ON things,and some THINGS are always OVER US! Could it BE ,that WE --- ARE the SHADOW on every WALL we chose to BUILD? :questionm :dontknow: QWAK,--- My PONDERING for today!:haha: One other thing I would like to mention -- that "Hand Wrighting on the WALL" ----- IT aint MINE if its ALL spelled RIGHT! :banana: :banana: :banana: Hope you like the WALL CLIP! It just seemed to FIT what I was thinking about and I thought I would SHARE! the DUCK (Added later) In the words of one of Harry Chapins songs "It's got to be the GOING --- NOT the GETTING there that's GOOD!" --- In DUCK words --- You got to take IT easy and INJOY preparing and prepositioning and LIVING the way (as much a you can) as IF it had already happened. BE/LIVE your DREAM ,your NEW REALITY do it now and right up to the END --- don't WAIT for IT to HAPPEN! Like the EAGLES say --- "TAKE it EASY!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SepR3t2ACGc Me agen the DUCK

hoarder | 04-26-2007 12:31 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahlil Gibran (Post 586694) The original post says that 95% of groups fail.
If 95% of survival groups fail when interdependence has little benefit it does not indicate that 95% of groups will fail WTSHTF. If the alleged failed groups were the main link to their members survival and they knew it I doubt they would have taken membership so lightly.

keehah | 04-26-2007 02:42 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Just a few more comments after that article I posted earlier. Seems John Greer is promising a future article on a new form of Punk Monk. Take the best traits of the sucessfull Monastry track-record without the diety baggage? http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/ Quote:
The monastic tradition is generally celibate and new acolytes are self-selected; the monk chooses to follow a highly organized, contemplative (albeit hardworking) and often hierarchical lifestyle. Treasures were hidden and there was little food or comforts around to attract pillaging by others. Greer: I have to admit that the possibility of a punk monasticism had never occurred to me! It's not impossible; it's precisely on the cultural fringes that the future takes shape. Much more on this in the weeks to come.
Quote:
While the internet is the world's greatest encyclopedia and how-to resource, and the friends I meet online here and elsewhere are a wonderful catalyst for creative thinking, they're not a substitute for the people next door, or those across the street. One of the things I've come to appreciate about my community is the social relationships, the ones that don't require dedicated time or constant emotional upkeep, but which nevertheless function as the kind of safety net we hear so much about and which public institutions so often fail to deliver. They form an extended field of consciousness in which participants are aware of each other's comings and goings, wants and needs, talents and interests, and they mysteriously give rise over time to spontaneous mutual benevolence. These relationships are not intimate, but they are almost uniformly pleasant and reassuring. It's one of the great benefits of staying put long enough to be recognized and included.

Anty Ep | 04-26-2007 05:27 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups keehah interesting comment. as I indicated the Benedictines were some kind of "survival group" themselves during the "Dark Ages"

Kahlil Gibran | 04-26-2007 05:35 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by keehah (Post 586941) Just a few more comments after that article I posted earlier. One of the things I've come to appreciate about my community is the social relationships, the ones that don't require dedicated time or constant emotional upkeep, but which nevertheless function as the kind of safety net we hear so much about and which public institutions so often fail to deliver. They form an extended field of consciousness in which participants are aware of each other's comings and goings, wants and needs, talents and interests, and they mysteriously give rise over time to spontaneous mutual benevolence. These relationships are not intimate, but they are almost uniformly pleasant and reassuring. It's one of the great benefits of staying put long enough to be recognized and included.
Attachment 27587 The more we look at this the more that Good Neighbor pretty much defines the successful survival group. Can it be as simple as that? :shakehand neighbors

hoarder | 04-26-2007 07:07 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups I size neighbors up in regards to intellect and character. If they rate highly in both I will trust them considerably more than if they rate low in either character or intellect. The latter need to be kept at an arms length (very long arm), for even if their character is good if they are dim witted they will expose you to harm because they don't understand the consequences of their words and actions. I'm not as fearful of rural neighbors as many here are. Unless you're in a really bad area, most rural folks are pretty decent.

damoc | 04-26-2007 07:15 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by gasilat (Post 587245) Be careful about involving your neighbors in your plans...if your neighbors know you think hard times are coming and have guessed you have prepared in advance when mob rule takes over they will vote themselves the right to take your supplies by force. Maybe...just maybe...if you appear just as surprised as they are when shtf you might be able to align with some of them for security. But you better look just as hungry and raggedy as they do. But...the best security is not needing any at all by removing yourself from exposure to danger.
very true and an important part of any group or community survival planning for anybody including myself who considers community survival a better option to soloist you had better be prepared to realy share in the work and the hardship even if you have had the wisdom to prepare and your life would be temporarily easier and safer being alone cheating on any ration or duty during these times could easily result in dead.

AMforPM | 04-26-2007 07:33 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups The corporate soil miners and monoculture desert makers have put out this tale for several generations that highly energy and chemical dependent agriculture produces more food, only it isn't true. Very small farms, 1 to 15 acres, managed mostly by hand with loving care by family owners to feed themselves and produce an excess to trade produces by far the most food per unit land, per unit fossil fuel and chemical inputs, and keeps the land in much better condition. But that does not concentrate ownership and power. Nor allow food price rigging for the purpose of the moment by centralized power. Not having oil won't starve us. Of course those who want to be like some in Jamestown and wait imperiously for dinner to be delivered may starve. When speaking of 'sheep' I see it differently. I think waves always have a leading edge and that is natural. There is also a kind of natural conservatism that it isn't all leading edge. Some on the leading edge are nuts and fly off as spume. But when the rest of the wave is here, we will have moved too, and still be on the edge. As Gandalf says of Butterbur, after calling him a fat fool who sneers at the Rangers who protect him from things that would freeze his blood, 'He can see through a wall, in time.' Our best hope is that as the sheep see through the walls the great power of the wave moves in positive and life sustaining directions. TPTB are working to put fear and violence everywhere. RR, yes, I can protect my family if I need to, but if I can contribute to my town not being like Iraq is now, I intend to. That ups my survival odds a whole lot. I do not want to join a survivalist club, but am family oriented in that regard. But I want to contribute to my entire town being more survivable.

GOLD DUCK | 04-26-2007 09:19 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by gasilat (Post 587319) I would expect most of my relatives to come to my place if things got bad enough. Everything they own they owe on and so are very dependent on the system holding together. I have enough land, firewood supply, buildings in place to put them all up in although the new lifestyle would take them some getting used to... ;-) such as...."okay sis its your turn to skin out a moose..."
QWAK,gasilat,Sounds like a PLAN to me ---- The MOOSE may not agree but you can't make every BODY happy! :emotions16: :haha: Here is a similar plan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhAjr...elated&search= I dbout either will work out real well but they BOTH sound GOOD and make you feel FUZZY and WARM in side! :smile: the DUCK

Kahlil Gibran | 04-26-2007 09:26 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by gasilat (Post 587319) I would expect most of my relatives to come to my place if things got bad enough. Everything they own they owe on and so are very dependent on the system holding together. I have enough land, firewood supply, buildings in place to put them all up in although the new lifestyle would take them some getting used to... ;-) such as...."okay sis its your turn to skin out a moose..."
I think most would consider their immediate family. How about your immediate neighbors? :dontknow:

Kahlil Gibran | 04-26-2007 10:58 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by gasilat (Post 587542) I'm pretty sure we can hold them off at the property line...:wink: Actually, its sparsely populated here. But, I have thought about my neighbors and I believe the ones that have lived here for a long time will be in the best shape. Some of my neighbors are folks that I have known for almost 40 years and they know how to live without money. I can work with them. A lot of the newer ones won't stay if it gets too bad. They will sell their wedding rings or whatever for a one way ticket to wherever they came from. I saw that happen in the 1980's.
The more I think about this Group thingie the more the Neighbors seem to matter. Long-term neighbors we "know" after awhile. Rental and new neighborhoods don't have any trust earned or demonstrated. Interesting. :beer:

hoarder | 04-26-2007 11:03 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Rural people are more direct and down to earth. There is accountability in rural communities. City people will sugar coat and make good politics but country boys will usually warn you if someone is not to be trusted. In a years time you will know all you need to know about your neighbors. Just make friends with one really decent and reasonably smart person and it's much easier.

lessoil=+pm | 04-26-2007 11:04 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups "I think most would consider their immediate family. How about your immediate neighbors?" in our situation neighbors will be very very important. we are 75- 150 yds apart & the protection(or threat) for one another would be very great. i'm sure in very bad times the intensifying of relationships would be tremendous,as well as difficult. we would need each other & w/o this probably be a threat to each other. i have lived communally in an extended household & have experienced something similiar. as i said earlier the best very close group is 3-6 or so but this would be very inadequate in times where security is a primary issue. above 6 subgroups tend to form( excepting of course GIM members where above one is frequently a subgroup) & this often breaksdown unity. so i consider in my situation the location of houses in most ways almost ideal as it is probably an adequate closeness for safety yet not on top of each other. unfortunately we are quite near a large population, but not a high density near us+ semi-rural. this thread challenges me to be much more deliberate about the futhering of relationships with all my neighbors. i see this as a necessity.hopefully we will have a major bump, without the full deal so all neighbors can be aware of the extremely hard times coming.

lessoil=+pm | 04-26-2007 11:12 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahlil Gibran (Post 587557) The more I think about this Group thingie the more the Neighbors seem to matter. Long-term neighbors we "know" after awhile. Rental and new neighborhoods don't have any trust earned or demonstrated. Interesting. :beer:
Yes absolutely as i have also concluded ; & a little turnover here to be concerned about.

Anty Ep | 04-27-2007 09:25 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahlil Gibran (Post 587152) ] The more we look at this the more that Good Neighbor pretty much defines the successful survival group. Can it be as simple as that? :shakehand neighbors
That's a good idea. Connectedness with your physical neighbors is your number 2 priority along these lines. Priority one is having a good relationship with your immediate and extended families. Priority three is having some affinity group in your geography for meet and greet and mutual interest. For most people that is a church.

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Anty Ep | 04-27-2007 09:29 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 587276) I size neighbors up in regards to intellect and character. If they rate highly in both I will trust them considerably more than if they rate low in either character or intellect. The latter need to be kept at an arms length (very long arm), for even if their character is good if they are dim witted they will expose you to harm because they don't understand the consequences of their words and actions. I'm not as fearful of rural neighbors as many here are. Unless you're in a really bad area, most rural folks are pretty decent.
certainly, you have to "discriminate" meaning see relevant differences clearly. I got several good neighbors. Some are better suited to the "survival" stuff than others. Most of them are pretty "successful" by virtue of being tied into the system as it is. So, by the same token, at least some will be on hard times fast if TSHTF. Still I may have a useful place for them in my fiefdom it it really comes to that. LOL. I am sizing up a new one that is showing odd tendencies. we'll see The kids have two big rules where new social contacts are concerned, and they go for us too. The first one is tell nobody about any guns or coins, whatsoever, unless they "need to know."

Anty Ep | 04-27-2007 09:33 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups democracy is what happens when there are no strong leaders showing the way. or, it is what happens when the strong leaders clandestinely trick people into thinking that they havent already decided the way things will shake out. usually the strong leaders that are open and honest will not hide behind democracy, but the strong leaders that are deceivers, will do so. in either case, democracy is usually a sketchy system if we are talking about "survival." Custom, tradition, culture-- those things provide more secure and predictable outcomes than "democracy." Plato said all what needed to be said.

keehah | 11-01-2007 10:18 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Peak Oil = Peak Death http://survivalacres.com/wordpress/?p=992 Lonewolf sent me this article link, Peak Oil and Famine: Four Billion Deaths. Read this first, because both Lonewolf and I have some commentary to make regarding the several assumptions made by the author. Goodchild errs on several points. The Earth’s population is most definitely NOT “automatically adjusted” to the Earth’s carrying capacity. Not even close. We have been in population overshoot for several decades now. All of the generations alive today are part of the population overshoot, which is in excess of 4 - 5 billion people. This has been permitted due to energy production and the ability to convert that energy into food. In the petroleum era, this has been almost entirely the result of the symbiotic relationship between oil and agriculture. However, peak oil has already occurred, and the planet’s population decline hasn’t even gotten started yet. This is because we are still existing on the dregs of our former production. This includes stored energy in the form of food and the ongoing production of food of oil-dependent mega-farms all over the world. This food and remaining oil is now being rapidly consumed, and reports from around the world are screaming to be heard. We are in a global food decline, and this situation will become more serious with each passing month. The coming “famine deaths” will be extreme as energy sources decline. Combined with climate change and we’ve got severe problems headed our way. Four billion deaths is a real number, but not in the next hundred years. This is much more likely to happen in the next 20 years. I’ve pointed out before that all the things we take for granted, such as entertainment, democracy, “rights”, leisure, even national identity, are all permitted because of “abundance”. Abundance affords these things. Abundance depends upon energy. Energy can be stored energy, such as liquid sunshine (petroleum) or current energy such as solar energy. The problem with solar energy is it isn’t enough for that “rainy day” when things go catastrophically wrong. A single failed crop season for a subsistence living society could easily mean the devastation of that society. Our society has pushed forward, year by year in population, infrastructure and importantly, it’s dependency upon stored energy. If that store of energy is threatened, depleted or even destroyed, the entire society it has built will crumble and fall — quickly. Four billion deaths or more could happen in less then a single decade. Few believe this could happen, but I’m in Lovelock’s camp. I believe it can and will happen, soon. The global resource wars among the nations are already underway. The race to the Arctic is a desperate gambit to preserve the status quo is all over the news. The utter complete failure of the oil industry to switch to renewable energy is already legendary. Declining energy supplies are already impacting food production all over the world. The danger is obvious — how soon will our constant consumption outstrip our ability to simply feed ourselves, thereby causing famine? Here are Lonewolf’s comments (emphasis mine): IMO The author has a few critical assumptions wrong. He apparently presumes that remaining oil will be more or less equally distributed (on a per capita basis) and also employed directly in food production to a similar extent as it has in the past (recent history). I ’say’ neither of these will be the case. The scarcer oil becomes the more extreme the price - the price to supply relationship is NOT linear (FAR from it). The higher the price, the fewer than can afford it - meaning access the production derived thereof. The ultra-elite will be relatively unaffected in their enclaves for at least a generation. The ‘middle class’ (what remains of it) will be rapidly driven into poverty and suffer effects of malnutrition and disease. The poor will not ‘be a problem’ as they will drop dead (like always). Who (here) gives a ‘flying bush’ if pigmented peoples across the globe drop like flies so long as “the American way-of-life’ is relatively unaffected (which is another delusion altogether). As oil becomes increasingly valuable and fewer people can afford food, less will be used in agriculture pursuits (IMO) while the uber-rich will continue flying in their private jets, etc (use an increasing percentage to maintain their ‘privileged’ status. An ever greater percentage of the oil produced will also go into a) ‘medicines’ and plastics, b) into military activity (murderous adventures of the permanent petrol wars), c) hoarded by the ‘elite’ and/or corporate ‘interests’ and/or d) in vain attempts to keep the lights on (grid connected). His calculation omits ‘natural’ deaths and effects of climate induced crop ‘losses’ as well as pestilence and warfare in all it’s guises and forms. He postulated 3.6 Billion famine deaths this century and another 1 to 2 billion in the 22nd century. Ha ha ha. I say he is totally naive. I ’see’ that many deaths or more due to famine, climates shifts and warfare in my remaining ‘expected’ lifetime (20 years or less). Combined the devastations of famine, climate, and war and what do you get? Disease. Epidemic pestilence. So subtract another billion of two within decades - not centuries. I ’say’ is equally possible to reduce the human population to below 1 Billion within a decade - especially if Herr Furher and his spawn have their way. Either I am FAR far far more cynical and pessimistic than ‘your average doomer’ or even the ‘alarmists’ don’t see (won’t look at) the ‘big picture’. Peak Oil is Peak Food but it’s also so much more. It’s Peak Delusions, Peak Fairy Tale, Peak (War and) Peace, Peak Pain, Peak Freak-Out, Peak Panic, Peak Life (death), Peak People, Peak Everything you and I have ever known. The future will NOT be a slightly more intense version of the present. The future will be unrecognizable to all but the top 1% or less of the ‘West’. With no experience/precedence whatsoever with what is to come. people will do what people do best - panic (flight and/or fight) The future is an entirely different planet than we have or can know and therefore humans will become a very different species over a evolutionary instant (derived from a handful of remote indigenous peoples who may survive). I very much fear that he is right. The relationship modern civilization has to abundant, cheap energy is being consistently underestimated by even the “doomers”. Our ability to simply feed ourselves will not just switch over to “sustainable methods” like many seem to think, and even if it could, this totally fails to take into account all the other factors that will affect our survival. I have a few more thoughts on this theme: Many seem to envision a transition to a “new world”, that will gently sweep out the old. I disagree, I don’t think it’s possible or will even be allowed. A self-sufficient society is a society that does not need the old vanguard — do you honestly believe that they will allow this without a fight? The United States has made a special point of destroying self-sufficient peoples all over the world — do we really believe that this will now change and they will actually help usher this in? Collapse is exactly what they want to keep us fighting over the resources that they control. Self-sufficiency removes that control and is the reason why it’s not even allowed today. Collapse will destroy the weak, poor and poorly prepared, but it will not destroy the elite. Not right away and perhaps, not ever if they can manage to maintain their positions as plantation owners. That is the plan. It’s already evidenced around the world as the corporate conglomerates take over the nations, destroying entire countries for plunder and profit, and gazillionaires buy up the world’s remaining resources. A poor, dependent population is a controllable, enslaved population. Those who are waiting for a new world of abundance and free energy, self-sufficiency and green, healthy living are going to be waiting a long, long time. This will not happen until the old vanguard (and their suckling progeny) are totally destroyed. The status quo isn’t simply going to go away because the world is running out of food and oil. The future promises to be dark, violent, brutal and ugly, far beyond what most people dare to fear. We’ve been setup. All of us. Understand that, and plan accordingly. It’s the only chance you will ever have. __________________________________________________ ___ __________________________________________________ _____ How much denial does it take to think the 5% of the population that invaded someone else's land a sends economic hit men to destroy more stable cultures and consumes 25% of the worlds resources are not much at all responsible for over consumption of the worlds resources. Warning! Turd below .......................

wallew | 11-01-2007 10:31 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups K, There IS one part of this thesis that I disagree with. All of the generations alive today are part of the population overshoot, which is in excess of 4 - 5 billion people. THIS statement is incorrect. There is ONE generation alive TODAY that is NOT part of the population overshoot. WHITE AMERICANS. Probably White Europeans and other white people in Canada and other places on this fair spinning orb. We were all 'sold' the idea of 'zero population growth'. We bought it, hook line and sinker. So much so that the white portion of the BOOMER generation actually has had LESS children than the madatory two per couple. This is OUR fault. OK, yeah we were SOLD this bill of goods. But we BOUGHT IT. Sorry, but this one part of this thesis is incorrect.

Anty Ep | 11-02-2007 09:14 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 807674) K,............ There is ONE generation alive TODAY that is NOT part of the population overshoot. WHITE AMERICANS. Probably White Europeans and other white people in Canada and other places on this fair spinning orb. We were all 'sold' the idea of 'zero population growth'. We bought it, hook line and sinker. So much so that the white portion of the BOOMER generation actually has had LESS children than the madatory two per couple. This is OUR fault. OK, yeah we were SOLD this bill of goods. But we BOUGHT IT. Sorry, but this one part of this thesis is incorrect.
I can unreservedly agree with those comments, wholeheartedly. Its sad too, my greatest joys in life are my children.

The Argent Dragon | 11-02-2007 09:37 AM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 587562) Rural people are more direct and down to earth. There is accountability in rural communities. City people will sugar coat and make good politics but country boys will usually warn you if someone is not to be trusted. In a years time you will know all you need to know about your neighbors. Just make friends with one really decent and reasonably smart person and it's much easier.
Ok, I'll buy that at least 99% of the time but don't rule out every city slicker......there's a few good ones here & there - just spit out the seeds. :D So Hoarder, why don't you like Texas - I couldn't find your response to Sukoi's Q ?

Strawboss | 11-02-2007 09:15 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahlil Gibran (Post 585078) Nah...the Americans With Disabilities Act crowd would file a Federal lawsuit. :stickyman don't say "that's lame" or I will sue you. After sleeping on this thread I think that some of us are not so much loners as anti-Authority. Very few at GIM supports the government. My guess is that our aversion to groups is really an aversion of having a Boss, Leader, or Superior. Even when times are "normal" nobody here seems to take to organized Power. I think we are basically social misfits not because we prefer Solitude but because we just don't like being told what to do. That whole peer-group pressure thingie. WTSHTF the sheeple and their little dictator bossman become even more contemptible. Is it basically that we won't be told what to do rather than preferring Solitude? Is that our real aversion to groups? :smokin:
I think we all know deep down inside that there isnt a human being on this planet that is truly "qualified" to be in charge. There was only one human being in the history of the world that was qualified to be in charge....and He WILL be back... All these things that you guys see coming in the near future...and are worried about...they were written about thousands of years ago. We just happen to have front row seats to watch it all transpire...:applause_:s9:

SilverCity | 11-02-2007 11:03 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Jesus Christ is the only true hope any of us have... Big AMEN to that one...:applause_

keehah | 11-02-2007 11:37 PM
Re: Forming Survival Groups Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 809938) Jesus Christ is the only true hope any of us have... Big AMEN to that one...:applause_
:D :grin: :wink: :confused_ma:

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