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Darkside | 08-22-2007 12:50 PM
Looking to buy a generator I am looking to buy a generator for our home. We currently do not own one. I don't know much about generators, but I think I want a diesel powered one at at least 3KW maybe 5KW. Enough to power fridges, water distiller and a few other things. The distiller alone uses over 1KW. I was thinking Honda makes great generators but I am not sure if they make diesel ones. Are there any in particular you'd recommend? Do you know of a good source to buy the generator at discount?

RiverRat | 08-22-2007 01:09 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator :D Stay away from any China Diesel unless you are good at repair work. Onan,Perkins,CAT are the diesel heavies in my book. Damn things are almost indestructible if you do regular maintenance. Not cheap and not a big selection of the smaller KW sizes.You've stepped into heavy equipment territory with these babies. Some guys buy old junker RVs just to get the generators. If you go that route make sure it's a diesel generator instead of a gas model. Got a small diesel tractor with a live PTO ? Buy yourself a PTO generator and you can use the tractor for farming and hook up the PTO generator for powering your bunker. Fuel consumption on a 30 HP or less tractor will be about the same as a 15K stand alone generator anyway. So you got both problems solved with one power unit. Just throwing ideas at you... Check eBay for the Onans,Cats,etc...these are usually construction grade units discounted quite heavily...used mostly,but the new ones are heart attacks when you price them. Not much help...Good luck. :rolleyes_m::rolleyes_m::rolleyes_m:

Darkside | 08-22-2007 01:24 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat (Post 705757) Not much help...Good luck.
no that's great help and I appreciate the ideas! i'll have to look into those heavy duty units

Sparky | 08-22-2007 02:23 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat (Post 705757) If you go that route make sure it's a diesel generator instead of a gas model.
Why diesel and not gasoline?

longjohnsilver | 08-22-2007 02:34 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator "Sparky" asked why diesel and not gasoline. :s9: BOOOOOOOOOOOMMM!!! Sparky make no Sparky --- Good suggestion Sukhoi.

hoarder | 08-22-2007 03:20 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator If you get a gasoline powered genny, get one of the old Onan 1800 RPM two cylinder horizonatally opposed ones often pulled out of RV's. I'm going to buy one and convert it to propane. If you're looking for a genny under 10KW there are very few diesels available. If I wanted a diesel I'd get one powered by a three cylinder Kubota.

Tn...Andy | 08-22-2007 03:30 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator I'd agree with hoarder.......if you buy a gas job, make SURE it's an 1800rpm model......MOST of them are 3600 and they scream, and don't last long....the 1800's just seem to loaf along.....and are fairly quiet. Propane is also the way to go. Problem with most gasoline generators is they sit around for a long time between uses and the carb gunks up with old gasoline, and then you have an hour job just getting it to start, assuming you have a carb kit to rebuild it. Propane doesn't have that problem. The Honda inverter models are also VERY quiet......you can stand beside them running and actually carry on a conversation, which you can't with most generators.

TheSimpleton | 08-22-2007 03:50 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=001 Lister diesels are hand-startable (theoretically) and use the least fuel per watt, as well as have the longest life (70yr to 1st rebuild) and simplest construction. Not 3600RPM, not 1800rpm, try 650rpm...Starting out at 12x the service life due to slower speeds. Downsides: incredibly heavy (hard to steal but also hard to move) need to be bolted down, have open pushrods and oiling, open flywheels, oil and metal too heavy to hand-start at low temps (0c). ST Genset is not integral and requires lovejoy, belts, etc. Can be attached to Chevy starter but everything with these is DIY. Refer to Utterpower.com A compromise might be german-designed but chinese-made ChangFa diesels. They're water cooled but an open system, so watch it. They do come with electric start. Look at this guy's other auctions, which includes (for Sparky) the chinese oil presses. Diesels have a longer life, less trouble (no spark system) and more actual power. They can also run vegetable oil of all sorts, although certain listers are so primative that they can run about any oil you pour in, including unclear veg oils and WVO, although naturally it's not recommeded, it is possible. With the presses you get about a 15x6=90 gal of oil using 2 gal of oil (fuel) every 6 hours. That's a good net energy gain and over an acceptable timeperiod. Diesel or veg oil also stores for very long periods, unlike petrol, and is less explosive, and in the case of sunflower oil, also good for other things. If you've looked at making ethanol at home, you'll find you only make 10 gal/100gal of mash, and have water issues and 75% less energy than gas while having to tweak your carb to run it. Get the diesel. And this is why. Vote with the PTO-drive tractor gen as well. However, I imagine the fuel use is poor compared to other solutions. They are also speed-sensitive and you may need a hi-low speed PTO to get in the right range without having to rev and take life off your tractor. TS

silverJeep | 08-22-2007 03:51 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator Quote:
Originally Posted by Tn...Andy (Post 705980) I'd agree with hoarder.......if you buy a gas job, make SURE it's an 1800rpm model......the 1800's just seem to loaf along.....and are fairly quiet..
What brands would you reccommend?

hoarder | 08-22-2007 04:12 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator Thanks for the interesting Lister links, T.S.. I've never seen one but it would seem to me that PTO generators would not maintain RPM very closely and thus not be suitable to electronic equipment. Governors are the most problematic part of most generators as speed control is no easy task.

hoarder | 08-22-2007 04:38 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator One more tidbit... There are lots of "Honda powered generators" out there that are just Honda engines coupled to just about anything. Some are good, some are Chinese, some in between. A real "Honda generator" will be all Honda with a quality generator end and instrumentation. They cost more.

Anty Ep | 08-22-2007 04:42 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator look at your draw too. figure your refrigerator is a big factor, other stuff is less essential. but the regular house draws between 4-6 KW on a regular basis from what I've read. dont skimp if you're going to the trouble, just get a 6kw.

TLM | 08-22-2007 05:10 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator A tractor with a pto drive could be the way to go, here's what I dug up in a local paper: -------------------------------------------------------- 1700 Yanmar 22hp. 2 Cylinder diesel with 3 point hitch, 3 speed PTO, 8 Speed. Hi-Lo transmission with 4' finishing mower. $3000. 864-XXX-XXXX Before 9pm ------------------------ 3 speed PTO! on a 22hp 2 cylinder diesel. Sure you need to buy the gen. head but a 22hp diesel generator would run you 5-8k.

money matters | 08-22-2007 06:09 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator An Onan diesel genset is a good recommendation. About $7500+. Northern Lights might be available where you are, understand they are reliable. I would NOT put $10k into a generator, UNLESS I had a Solar/Wind primary system for making energy, a 24, 36, or 48 Volt battery and inverter to use with it. Here's why: If you have 10-20 solar panels; you have a genset that is about unbreakable. Passive Power Production! Just let the sun shine or the wind blow. Wind power is cheaper, but do you have good prevailing winds where you live? If in the city/burbs, can you mount a pole with a windcharger in your yard or on your roof? Your refrigerator is likely power efficient. You can further insulate it, and cut down on power use. You can mount a computer fan to cool the compressor motor, you might already have it installed in your wall array, you can insulate that area and the fridge itself. They don't take a helluva lot of current to run, just to actuate the motor. You can turn off the fridge at night. Same with your freezer. Pack them full, you get a flywheel effect. Run only a couple hours a day. Maybe you get a Dorm fridge for stuff you pull out constantly? Or use an ice chest. You can make block ice in your freezer. If you have a battery for power storage, you won't need to run your genset much. If you have solar/wind power production gear, you'll only run it when conditions require. You can also consider DC appliances, use fluoride bulbs, rechargable battery gear, and simply using fewer electric gizmos. At $3/gal, Diesel is a bargain over gasoline; but... If you can afford a diesel genset in the first place, likely you can buy a solar array and inverter system. You need a quality battery charger, one capable of delivering a 100-200 amp equalizing charge to keep your battery from sulfating its plates. Running a genset any time you want electricity is super expensive. You might do without the solar/wind charging aspect, because running the genset a couple hours a day to charge battery and run large electric appliances is an option. Just a limiting option. Check the spec plates or owners manuals for the appliances you want to power. Determine your needs. Learn to be miserly with your electric desires, and you will be amazed at what you can do with a basic AE system. Buying a $8k genset and then spending $500/mo to run it is no way to go at this power thing. Buying a used RV for the genset, which RR mentioned is a pretty good idea actually. Look for low hours on the genset, if you've got room just consider arranging the RV so it can powerfeed your home. A motorhome with diesel genset might be the smartest buy you ever make. A mobile power station and home on wheels might just save your bacon.

Atahualpa | 08-22-2007 06:15 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator Here are some diesel generators designed for use in Amish communities... http://www.imperialdiesel.com/ note: they haven't raised their prices in 7 years.

hoarder | 08-22-2007 06:20 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 706253) Here are some diesel generators designed for use in Amish communities... http://www.imperialdiesel.com/ note: they haven't raised their prices in 7 years.
I exchanged emails with them a while back when Tn Andy posted that link. The generators are made in China but designed in Germany. I think part suppliers would be very limited.

Atahualpa | 08-22-2007 06:31 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 706262) I exchanged emails with them a while back when Tn Andy posted that link. The generators are made in China but designed in Germany. I think part suppliers would be very limited.
I've talked to them and the diesel engine is a John Deere clone made in China, they have been using these engines from the same manufacturer for over 20 years and the rep told me they have never had a failure due to manufacturing defects. The alternators are U.S. made as well as the cooling system and all other components added on.

hoarder | 08-22-2007 06:41 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 706282) I've talked to them and the diesel engine is a John Deere clone made in China, they have been using these engines from the same manufacturer for over 20 years and the rep told me they have never had a failure due to manufacturing defects. The alternators are U.S. made as well as the cooling system and all other components added on.
Thanks for refreshing my memory. It seems he said it was a "reverse clone" or something like that. I'm not certain what that means but I guess it's like the reverse floorplans tract builders use to economize. If so, that would mean some JD parts would fit and others wouldn't. John Deere diesels were designed to be built to somewhat sloppy tolerances and it would make sense to use such a design for Chinese manufacture. I noticed the block looked like aluminum in the photo. That would not be good. Electrolosis would eat up the area where the wet sleeve "O" rings land on the block. In any case they're probably worth the price. The Amish wouldn't use it if it was lousy.

Atahualpa | 08-22-2007 06:55 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 706297) Thanks for refreshing my memory. It seems he said it was a "reverse clone" or something like that. I'm not certain what that means but I guess it's like the reverse floorplans tract builders use to economize. If so, that would mean some JD parts would fit and others wouldn't. John Deere diesels were designed to be built to somewhat sloppy tolerances and it would make sense to use such a design for Chinese manufacture. I noticed the block looked like aluminum in the photo. That would not be good. Electrolosis would eat up the area where the wet sleeve "O" rings land on the block. In any case they're probably worth the price. The Amish wouldn't use it if it was lousy.
I don't think the block is aluminum, I questioned him about the casting and asked him about the metal and he said it was an alloy. I would follow up on that, but they seem like they know what they are doing and these generators are capable of constant duty according to him. The Amish are looking for reliability first and foremost, so I think you are right.

Darkside | 08-23-2007 08:52 AM
Re: Looking to buy a generator Awesome information everyone- thanks so much. It will help me big time in researching what generator to get!

TheSimpleton | 08-23-2007 08:57 AM
Re: Looking to buy a generator I have to agree with MM on this. Gens are great and all, but these ST heads run on AC and therefore your generator must be on EVERY MINUTE that you need electricity. What kind of sense does that make? Will you run it all night because the sump pump might turn on? What a waste of life-hours, fuel, and noise that says "Here I am! Rich enough to waste fuel all night!" At the least, a battery bank would allow you to run the generator efficiently, like an hour a day or less. However, once you get a battery and inverter large enough for a house, plus the new fuse box and wiring, adding a couple solar panels looks positively cheap: Look at $1700 for a bombshell item like the Outback, plus $2000 US for batteries, and a solar panel is what? $800 for the largest? And this is off the shelf. RVs have solid inverters, as well as other here who have had uber-cheap solutions to get a few loose Kw for under $500. If you haven't thought of it, a battery-inverter set is also reverse engineering. If you add a large AC motor, you could actually power a car with 110v electric using the same rig. A house inverter has 30a with high overloads. It's hard to see needing much more in a modest car. How about a tractor? Model-A pickup? The raw components are the deal though. In a pinch, you'll be able to make a generator out of a lawn mower and an alternator. Or a bicycle, plywood, and a reel of varnished wire. You'll even be able to get inverters of different types. But good storage batteries are one thing you may find it hard to get. Think about the whole system, the whole use, and the most likely conditions you'd be under if forced to use a generator for long periods. I almost think of the listers as a work machine, as in a factory. Good for pumping, oil pressing, winnowing, sawmilling, etc, or running a small community of buildings. As a solution for a single house with a few light bulbs and freezer, it doesn't match up. And that's true of other 6kw gens as well. If you buy one, house it, maintain it and feed it, shouldn't you expect the whole neighborhood to be camped in your yard before long? And that could be a good thing. But you're really offering to be a major power plant, and end up having the 24h responsibilities of one. TS

hoarder | 08-23-2007 09:16 AM
Re: Looking to buy a generator Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimpleton (Post 706892) Think about the whole system, the whole use, and the most likely conditions you'd be under if forced to use a generator for long periods.
The right use of a generator is in conjunction with alternative energy. It's a stop-gap measure to make up for the shortcomings of low voltage DC systems and equipment. Washing and drying clothes with batteries is possible but not feasible. A generator can be used to equalize batteries (with a charger), to charge batteries when the alternative energy system is inoperative for one reason or another, to run tools that require 120VAC and so on. In extreme cases it could be used to run a window air conditioner during a heat wave. I think a generator is an integral component of any off grid home, but planning on using a generator to power an ordinary home WTSHTF is a problematic idea.

RiverRat | 08-23-2007 09:35 AM
Re: Looking to buy a generator :rolleyes_m: The PTO Gensets run off a diesel tractor respond to load stress just the same as a dedicated Genset...no fancy governor or extra parts needed. I have used them on numerous occasions with Kubota,Yanmar,and Shibura diesel tractors...we set the 540 rpm model Gensets at 550 rpm PTO speed and forget about it. The ones I have used were geared 3 to 1 internally for 1,800 RPM constant armature speed. Another way of setting speed is with a Multi-Meter...just check your voltage in the plug sockets under a desired load. Throttle the tractor at 225V output with your minimum load connected and the diesel will govern itself if load increases...a no brainer. If you own a Gray Market diesel tractor you're in luck. The Japanese farmers use their PTOs at much higher speeds than US models to pump out rice paddys and to run irrigation pumps. My Yanmar FX24D has a 7 speed PTO :>) My Shibura 1840SD has a 5 speed PTO :>) US models by law are single speed 540 RPM only. Not a problem if you buy a US made PTO Genset :>) The benefit of the Gray Market tractors with their multi speed PTOs is that you can run a PTO Genset at much lower engine RPMs for the same output,also uses less fuel per hour. So don't sweat the PTO Gensets...regulation of varying loads will be compensated for by the tractor engine itself :>) as load fluctuates. Whew...took longer than I thought to explain it :>)

hoarder | 08-23-2007 09:46 AM
Re: Looking to buy a generator Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat (Post 706937) :rolleyes_m: The PTO Gensets run off a diesel tractor respond to load stress just the same as a dedicated Genset...no fancy governor or extra parts needed.
I suppose if the tractor has a variable speed governor as opposed to on that limits maximum speed only it would maintain proper RPM if the governor was well made. If it was a high speed governor you would have to run the engine at high speed only which might work if you have the right gearing. Using voltage as a means of determining speed wil not likely get you within closer than plus or minus 5 percent of 60 Hertz. That would be good enough to run an air compressor and saws at a construction site but not really what I'd want to operate my computer with.

RealJack | 08-23-2007 10:10 AM
Re: Looking to buy a generator Wow! here's a hybrid solar / wind generator made out of an aerogel material using a silent helical blade design. I want one... Watch the little video on the right of the page. Classy, beautiful and quiet. http://www.bluenergyusa.com/SWT_Designing.html Here's another Helix Wind design. <object width="425" height="353"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/q9flSPAdOLk"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/q9flSPAdOLk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="353"></embed></object>

____hoot____ | 08-23-2007 10:15 AM
Re: Looking to buy a generator My dad has one of those cheap 3000 watt chinese generators that go for about $300. It has a 6.5 hp OHV engine and is OK on gas though a bit loud. I am thinking of buying two of them.[never seem to be able to afford the best~~~so I always get two of the cheapest]bancha

RiverRat | 08-23-2007 10:23 AM
Re: Looking to buy a generator :D True Hoarder... Setting the output in Hz with my Fluke MM is not a problem if I was mission critical trying to run a computer or a dedicated appliance that required 60 cycles per second. BUT... Gensets like the PTO types were never designed for true,stable 60 Hz output anyway,but neither are 99% of the stand alone Gensets. Very few Gensets for home use output true sine wave power. Most are square wave or modified square wave which would nuke a desktop computer that depends on a true utility grade sine wave @ 60Hz in a very short amount of time. I wouldn't advise it... Easier and safer to run a laptop computer off a true sine wave DC/AC inverter or DC/DC inverter that steps up 12V to 19V DC. Better yet...just charge the laptop battery with a small solar panel and forget about using a desktop. Power line conditioners aren't cheap...square wave to true sine wave conditioners are cost prohibitive for the average homeowner. Not arguing with you...you brought up a valid point. Something off the grid people take for granted because they already know the quirks and knowledge it takes to make everything work. Solar PV,Hydro,and Wind systems with adequate battery capacity is always going to beat a Genset in any contest for long term electrical generation. The power hungry hogs like washers,toaster ovens,blow dryers,well pumps,etc are best run off a Genset unless you have a hell of a battery bank to support the drain. There are cheaper and more logical ways to power a home off the grid temporarily than elaborate alternative energy set ups. Gensets work fine...short term...with a few compromises. Long term ? That's a completely different subject entirely...permanent off grid is not going to be cheap unless you drastically alter your lifestyle and appliances to alternative sources of power and/or operating limits. Most people have no idea how much energy it takes to run the average all electric American home. Most are shocked when they realize it's either cut back or fork out the really BIG BUCKS to sustain their present wasted energy lifestyle. :D:D:D:D

TheSimpleton | 08-23-2007 12:56 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator Sort of reminds me of this: http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/prod...1&keyword=wash http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/prod...eyword=clothes It's great news that Japanese tractors have multi PTOs. However, better North American tracters also have a high-low PTO lever. Not much option, but something like 540 and 1800. Yes. Key to any of this is to LOWER YOUR CONSUMPTION. Any cursory review of TSHTF will show that anything to do with power is unreliable. You need to get medieval on it. Root cellars, dry goods, olive oil lamps and all that. It's great to have electric, but it's nothing as necessary as you might think. Lights extend your workday. The ability to make ice to share with neighbors would be a treat. But if you didn't have it, you'd do what 3B other humans do: live without. I wouldn't make electric at the core of any plans. For one, in a long-term situation, where do you get parts? How do you prevent theft? Borrowing by the town volunteer police and fire? Live humble. What is that old saying about "rainment" and "daily bread"? The only reason to have more is to share the bounty. TS

money matters | 08-23-2007 01:12 PM
Re: Looking to buy a generator It is feasible to do EVERYTHING in your medium size house via battery powered inverters. We did. But we optimized our gear. Didn't use an electric dryer; used propane dryer, Didn't use electric hotwater heater, used propane, on-demand wh, Didn't run central Air Conditioning via the inverter. Not feasible due to compressor actuation load. Didn't heat w/electric. Our system was inter-tied w/grid. Cost about $25 per mo, mainly for equalizing charges to battery and keeping battery chgd during rainy spells. Not a big deal to interface to your home wiring. Couple of sm outboard boxes to route feed from power pole to your AE disconnect, and send the AC from your inverters back down to your breaker box. Main thing is, are you running energy hog appliances, lighting your home inefficiently, and can you adapt to propane or wood heat? If you want electric for a survival situation, you want Solar, Wind, or Hydro power working for you. Or maybe you have a gas well on your property? There are firewood powerd boiler systems that for about $4k allow you to have all the hotwater and therefore, home heat that you could ever want, A good wood burning cookstove is also a real survivalists tool. Down South, they had a "cookshack" for Summer use. Get too damn hot to stoke a fire when it's 90F in the shade. If any of this were "easy" we'd have no peak oil, no bank crisis, and peace would reign; (but those days are coming!). As it stands, until you've investigated the loads you want to power, the duration you'll need power each day, and the hourly fuel consumption for your genset plus done fuel use projections allowing for tripling of fuel prices for inflation; you don't know what you need or what you're facing. The genset works, as long as it works. One component goes out, you better have the parts and knowledge to repair it. With an AE electric generation system, one panel goes, you have all the others. One battery cell goes, you still have x others to work with. Lose one 6v cell in a 24v battery, well, hopefully you had several 4 cell groups and now have 24, 12 & 6v capacity. Got solar panels but no batteries? Beats having a genset but no fuel. At least you have DC current when the sun shines! I think you are under the gun on the timing of your decision. Not much longer to look for the "cheapest way" of delivery. Anyone desirous of their own standby power system will need to ask "what can I get?", rather than, "how much will I pay?" You need to get chintzy with your power usage. Begin thinking, "do I need to turn on this light?" My solar panels produce 75w each. 600w per hour (24v) goes pretty quick, unless you guard it. Your life will change, if you've never thought twice about turning on the switch. And you'll always have electricity, fuel or no fuel! good luck

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