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- - avoiding car insurance (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=68604)

demosfen | 09-29-2006 11:29 PM
avoiding car insurance I will be buying a car sometime soon. Does anybody know if there are still any states that don't have compulsory auto insurance law? I read that there were 5 of them, but this information is 6 years old. (yes I know the whole driver license thing is scam, I just don't think cops do) [Edit: I have no idea how I ended up posting this to survival prep forum :albertein]

Ponce Cuba | 09-29-2006 11:34 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Demo? the only way that I know is by posting a bond of about $10,000 or maybe is $25,000........ read about it a long time ago.

demosfen | 09-29-2006 11:42 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Yeah, I know of that one , I think the number is 25k. I didn't find anything about it in NY law unfortunately, maybe we don't have it. But you know what, at 1k a year for insurance, I don't know if posting a 25k makes sense, due to inflation. Maybe having 25k in silver would make more sense

demosfen | 09-29-2006 11:51 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Ok, found this - http://www.iii.org/media/hottopics/i...ce/compulsory/ Liability insurance is compulsory in 47 states and the District of Columbia. Only New Hampshire, Tennessee and Wisconsin do not have compulsory auto insurance liability laws. Andy, can I use your address for my car registration?? :cheerful:

blueice | 09-30-2006 12:10 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance My understanding in Wisconsin is, that if you are at fault in a crash, you must pay all of the damages or you lose your DL, for life.

demosfen | 09-30-2006 12:30 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance You should be able to afford it, if you stop throwing money at insurance companies :D

blueice | 09-30-2006 01:31 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance Sorry Demf. I am not going to risk tens of thousands of dollars in damages to simply save some $450 in fees.

blueice | 09-30-2006 02:02 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance Master Fan, as I said before, you have more balls than the entire forum.

demosfen | 09-30-2006 07:18 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance blue, for every dollar that insurance companies collect in auto insurance fees, they pay on average 11 cents in claims. So for your $450 in fees you are getting on average $50 value. Either you get ripped by insurance companies, or take full responsibility

Catwagon | 09-30-2006 07:44 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by demosfen (Post 373668) Ok, found this - http://www.iii.org/media/hottopics/i...ce/compulsory/ Liability insurance is compulsory in 47 states and the District of Columbia. Only New Hampshire, Tennessee and Wisconsin do not have compulsory auto insurance liability laws. Andy, can I use your address for my car registration?? :cheerful:
I got a ticket here in west Tennessee last year for $384.00 because I didn't have proof of insurance. I dunno guys, but paying that ticket made having insurance feel sorta compulsory to me.

thorgrim | 09-30-2006 08:49 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance You guys think your insurance is bad? Here in Alberta the minimum liability is $500,000. It's a government mandated racket as far as I'm concerned.

Tn...Andy | 09-30-2006 09:19 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance You're too late Demosfen.....Tennessee changed it's law couple years ago. Liability now required and proof must be carried in vehicle.....not quite as bad as some States like Virginia where if you drop your coverage, they send a cop to pick up your tags.

gunner | 09-30-2006 09:47 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 373703) blueice, we live in the age of limited liability, a benefit or priviledge of the corporate state. Under limited liability NO ONE is directly responsible for their actions. Not only that, the 'auto liability insurance' isn't to protect the people and their property, it's to protect the state since the state is the legal owner of the 'motor vehicle' via a cestui qui trust (the CERTIFICATE OF TITLE scheme). In Texas, the minimum coverage for property damage with 'auto liability insurance' is $15K which isn't going to cover the ~$50K cost of replacement of my later model automobile should another motorist cause a total loss of said automobile. I don't have a DRIVER LICENSE (which is "unknown to Texas law" anyway according to the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals and I don't have a need for a license since I don't operate a business on public property), and therefore no insurance agent will write an 'auto liability insurance' policy, so I self-insure, which means I actually do take responsibility for my own actions with full liability.
Adding to the title scheme; I bought a 21 foot 1980 Sea Ray a few years ago, no title issued in 1980. When I went to dmv to get tags, they told me that I would get a title in the mail within 3 weeks and that I couldn't sell the boat within that period. I told the cashier that since I bought the boat with my own money and accepted it without title, that I could just as easily sell it without one. Saw that glazed-over look and she repeated the instructions. This is how the state steals your property - by creating a title that recognizes ownership, so they can unrecognize it at a time of their choosing. This is why they love the idea of gun registration/titling. The state would like to reclaim "their" property at a time of their choosing.

goddess | 09-30-2006 11:43 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance .................................................. .

Tn...Andy | 09-30-2006 11:58 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance Newsflash...."they" can ticket you for anything they want....whether they actually GET it or not depends on how good their resiprocity agreements with your State are..... Was in New Orleans once, with some buddies, and we stopped at bakery on the way out of town to get some fresh bread.....MAN, do they have good bread there !!......only place to park was a loading zone.....so my buddy driving pulls in, stays with the car, and I run in for the bread...come back out, and we drive off. Several weeks later, he gets a PARKING TICKET in the mail from New Orleans.....only thing we can figure is the meter maid up the street got his tag number as we drove off and they got the info that way to send him the ticket....."And ya'll come back, now, heah ?" He mailed it back to them and suggested they extradite him, as he wasn't paying them a dime.

cb&julie | 09-30-2006 11:59 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance Although not avoiding insurance altogether, if you buy the car outright with cash, only liability is required. This should get your costs down pretty low.

blueice | 09-30-2006 01:42 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 373703) blueice, we live in the age of limited liability, a benefit or priviledge of the corporate state. Under limited liability NO ONE is directly responsible for their actions.
Master Fan, I must take exceptions to the above statement. If one would be at "fault" in a crash and lack proper insurance, let me assure you that this person will be quickly sued for their entire net worth. Quote:
Originally Posted by demosfen (Post 373760) blue, for every dollar that insurance companies collect in auto insurance fees, they pay on average 11 cents in claims. So for your $450 in fees you are getting on average $50 value. Either you get ripped by insurance companies, or take full responsibility
Demosfen, that figure is not correct. If that was the case insurance stocks would sell for thousands. The payout is more like 96 cents or more. A payout rate of 90 cents per dollar of premium would be considered excellant cost control. It is the few cents saved and the investment returns that produce the industries bottom line.

demosfen | 09-30-2006 01:51 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by blueice (Post 373973) The payout is more like 96 cents or more.
Huh? If that was true... If you add their other expenses like, rent, advertising, employee salaries, taxes, etc. , than insurance companies have expenses that exceed revenues. :rolleyes:

blueice | 09-30-2006 02:00 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by demosfen (Post 373979) Huh? If that was true... If you add their other expenses like, rent, advertising, employee salaries, taxes, etc. , than insurance companies have expenses that exceed revenues. :rolleyes:
You are correct it would included operating expenses. The number I gave, was for health insurance premiums.

demosfen | 09-30-2006 02:05 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance I understand it takes $$ to run an insurance company, but why should it matter to me? All I care is that I get a dollar in return for every $10 I give them.

Maddie | 10-01-2006 03:54 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by goddess (Post 373875) Want to try something fun? Move out of state(one that dose not boarder your old state) and let your tags expire. LOL they can't ticket you for expired tags. :clap2:
No, but if your new state can prove you've had residence there for a particular length of time and have not changed your tags over, your new state can ticket you...at least in Georgia they can.

demosfen | 10-01-2006 05:08 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Of course you should. You are getting ripped. What traceable assets? Bury your gold. Put your house in a living trust. If you have to have a bank account, keep minimum amount in it I do these things even though I don't have a car at the moment. Having traceable assets is a bad, bad idea.

Halophyte | 10-01-2006 06:02 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by gunner (Post 373808) Adding to the title scheme; I bought a 21 foot 1980 Sea Ray a few years ago, no title issued in 1980. When I went to dmv to get tags, they told me that I would get a title in the mail within 3 weeks and that I couldn't sell the boat within that period. I told the cashier that since I bought the boat with my own money and accepted it without title, that I could just as easily sell it without one. Saw that glazed-over look and she repeated the instructions. This is how the state steals your property - by creating a title that recognizes ownership, so they can unrecognize it at a time of their choosing. This is why they love the idea of gun registration/titling. The state would like to reclaim "their" property at a time of their choosing.
I concur, I've bought personal property without the states transfer of certificate of title. I don't care. I have a bill of sales signed by me and the seller, without prejudice to my rights in commerce, and that works for me. .

Anty Ep | 10-02-2006 09:41 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance Reality Check again. The reason that the States have these laws is not to harass a handful of sovereign citizens or a few silver coin collecting tax avoiders like present company but rather, to remediate the problem of thousands of uninsured sub 87 IQ mooncrickets driving around drunk dirty disrepaired old Buicks and occasionally homiciding some innocent person thus causing tragic moral and economic losses. This is usually called the "uninsured motorist" problem. If you simply require that every driver has at a minimum liability coverage in a certain amount than the insurance companies will be able to pick up the bill for serious personal injuries caused by these suhumanoid wrecking manchines, at a minimum. Also, I dont know how "responsible" you are but last time I checked hospital bills a broken leg can cost a hell of a lot of money to fix. So maybe you guys are pretty rich but insurance is a wise choice for most people who dont have $10 or 20,000 laying around in the bank or in gold coins buried in a "patriot safe" on their grandpa's farm.

Turner-son | 10-02-2006 11:49 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 375310) Reality Check again. The reason that the States have these laws is not to harass a handful of sovereign citizens or a few silver coin collecting tax avoiders like present company but rather, to remediate the problem of thousands of uninsured sub 87 IQ mooncrickets driving around drunk dirty disrepaired old Buicks and occasionally homiciding some innocent person thus causing tragic moral and economic losses. This is usually called the "uninsured motorist" problem. If you simply require that every driver has at a minimum liability coverage in a certain amount than the insurance companies will be able to pick up the bill for serious personal injuries caused by these suhumanoid wrecking manchines, at a minimum. Also, I dont know how "responsible" you are but last time I checked hospital bills a broken leg can cost a hell of a lot of money to fix. So maybe you guys are pretty rich but insurance is a wise choice for most people who dont have $10 or 20,000 laying around in the bank or in gold coins buried in a "patriot safe" on their grandpa's farm.
Excellent post and so very true.

Turner-son | 10-02-2006 11:57 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 375407) Few have any real comprehension of where we are and how we got here with respect to 'money' and (the privilege of) 'limited liability', and as a result extremely few understand taking responsibility for one's self and one's own actions and act accordingly. There's your 'reality check'.
Again, 100% true. I would caution you however to reign in your emotions for a moment and read again what Anty Ep wrote. His post contains facts which cannot be refuted. He does not try to refute your facts, however you respond in turn with your nose upturned, confident in your scorn. Your arrogance in every post is overwhelming. It is becoming quite disquieting.

Turner-son | 10-02-2006 01:23 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by bl96S5eu (Post 375483) So what did we do in this country before insurance? How did we handle our wagons? Yes but why does this stuff cost so much? Is it the cost of the procedure (fixing the leg) or the overhead of lawsuits, lawyers, resolving payments with insurance companies, etc? One example is when I tried to self insure for medical care our doctors were charging us full 'retail' When querying the doctor I asked how come a customer with net 0 terms would get charged more than a customer with net 30 (if they're lucky) to net 120 days? He just stared at me...why don't they teach doctors basic finance in medical school, for being so smart they sure are stupid. So people paying cash pay the full amount while insurance companies who have significantly reduced amounts and long payout periods are saving money? Insurance companies and providers (I'll refrain from using the term health as that is arguable) are at odds in their goals, they both want to make money but can only do so at the expense of the other.
I like the quotes in your signature by the way. I don't think I've told you that.

Anty Ep | 10-02-2006 01:24 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by bl96S5eu (Post 375483) So what did we do in this country before insurance? How did we handle our wagons?
Fascinating question. Of course let's remeber that horse carriages are slower than cars and don't present the same kinds of risks of personal injury. There's little to compare this to in history to be quite frank, but, let's look at the history of insurance for a second. http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/bus/A0858849.html Quote:
Insurance developed rapidly with the growth of British commerce in the 17th and 18th cent. Prior to the formation of corporations devoted solely to the business of writing insurance, policies were signed by a number of individuals, each of whom wrote his name and the amount of risk he was assuming underneath the insurance proposal, hence the term underwriter. The first stock companies to engage in insurance were chartered in England in 1720, and in 1735, the first insurance company in the American colonies was founded at Charleston, S.C. Fire insurance corporations were formed in New York City (1787) and in Philadelphia (1794). The Presbyterian Synod of Philadelphia sponsored (1759) the first life insurance corporation in America, for the benefit of Presbyterian ministers and their dependents. After 1840, with the decline of religious prejudice against the practice, life insurance entered a boom period. In the 1830s the practice of classifying risks was begun. The New York fire of 1835 called attention to the need for adequate reserves to meet unexpectedly large losses; Massachusetts was the first state to require companies by law (1837) to maintain such reserves. The great Chicago fire (1871) emphasized the costly nature of fires in structurally dense modern cities. Reinsurance, whereby losses are distributed among many companies, was devised to meet such situations and is now common in other lines of insurance. The Workmen's Compensation Act of 1897 in Britain required employers to insure their employees against industrial accidents. Public liability insurance, fostered by legislation, made its appearance in the 1880s; it attained major importance with the advent of the automobile. In the 19th cent. many friendly or benefit societies were founded to insure the life and health of their members, and many fraternal orders were created to provide low-cost, members-only insurance. Fraternal orders continue to provide insurance coverage, as do most labor organizations. Many employers sponsor group insurance policies for their employees; such policies generally include not only life insurance, but sickness and accident benefits and old-age pensions, and the employees usually contribute a certain percentage of the premium. Since the late 19th cent. there has been a growing tendency for the state to enter the field of insurance, especially with respect to safeguarding workers against sickness and disability, either temporary or permanent, destitute old age, and unemployment (see social security). The U.S. government has also experimented with various types of crop insurance, a landmark in this field being the Federal Crop Insurance Act of 1938. In World War II the government provided life insurance for members of the armed forces; since then it has provided other forms of insurance such as pensions for veterans and for government employees. After 1944 the supervision and regulation of insurance companies, previously an exclusive responsibility of the states, became subject to regulation by Congress under the interstate commerce clause of the U.S. Constitution. Until the 1950s, most insurance companies in the United States were restricted to providing only one type of insurance, but then legislation was passed to permit fire and casualty companies to underwrite several classes of insurance. Many firms have since expanded, many mergers have occurred, and multiple-line companies now dominate the field. In 1999, Congress repealed banking laws that had prohibited commercial banks from being in the insurance business; this measure was expected to result in expansion by major banks into the insurance arena. In recent years insurance premiums (particularly for liability policies) have increased rapidly, leaving unprecedented numbers of Americans uninsured. Many blame the insurance conglomerates, contending that U.S. citizens are paying for bad risks made by the companies. Insurance companies place the burden of guilt on law firms and their clients, who they say have brought unreasonably large civil suits to court, a trend that has become so common in the United States that legislation has been proposed to limit lawsuit awards. Catastrophic earthquakes, hurricanes, and wildfires in late 1980s and the 90s have also strained many insurance company's reserves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bl96S5eu Yes but why does this stuff cost so much? Is it the cost of the procedure (fixing the leg) or the overhead of lawsuits, lawyers, resolving payments with insurance companies, etc? ....
Well that is a big subject and I wouldnt pretend to even be able to give a simplistic response. Bottom line, its a business, so if you can do it for less, you may have the chance to become a very rich person.

bl96S5eu | 10-02-2006 01:32 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by Turner-son (Post 375527) I like the quotes in your signature by the way. I don't think I've told you that.
Well thanks but as you know I'm just a regurgitation machine, no original thoughts there :)

bl96S5eu | 10-02-2006 02:21 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 375528) Fascinating question. Of course let's remeber that horse carriages are slower than cars and don't present the same kinds of risks of personal injury. There's little to compare this to in history to be quite frank, but, let's look at the history of insurance for a second.
True that there isn't anything to compare it to however I can look at direct costs and see the value that I'm getting for what I'm paying. Looking at insurance from a strickly contemporary perspective (no offense intended to Sukhoi_fan) the value of insurance is questionable. As with all enterprises once they become mainstream the costs associated with maintaining the beast becomes much more then what the intent of the idea was in the beginning. As others have touched on the actual US$ outlay of insurance companies is low compared to all the other maintenance costs for that. The problem is people want zero risk to themselves and instead will let whatever needs to be enacted to give them the perception of zero risk which snowballs until the concept becomes the driving force and people aren't allowed to make decisions for themselves. We lose site of possibility vs. probability and instead let fear drive our decisions, "what if" may be a good question to ask however most of us are enrolled to cover other peoples faults, not our own.

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Goldhedge | 10-02-2006 03:17 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quick! Everyone check out www.ticketslayer.com

Anty Ep | 10-02-2006 04:23 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldhedge (Post 375672) Quick! Everyone check out www.ticketslayer.com
More sovereign citizen BS that only cost $75. ONLY $75 WORTHLESS FRNS~! http://www.ticketslayer.com/ts.order_1.htmat

demosfen | 10-02-2006 04:35 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 375310) The reason that the States have these laws is not to harass a handful of sovereign citizens or a few silver coin collecting tax avoiders like present company but rather, to remediate the problem of thousands of uninsured sub 87 IQ mooncrickets driving around drunk dirty disrepaired old Buicks and occasionally homiciding some innocent person thus causing tragic moral and economic losses. This is usually called the "uninsured motorist" problem.
We don't have uninsured motorist problem, we have corrupted government problem. The reason for compulsory car insurance is that insurance industry finally learned how to bribe elected officials. Optional insurance (any insurance) is just a tax on mathematically challenged. With so many people running around who can do math, bribing government is a good business decision that allows insurance industry to tap into large and otherwise unreachable market. There is only so many people who would volunteer to buy car insurance no matter how expensive.

Anty Ep | 10-02-2006 05:23 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by demosfen (Post 375752) We don't have uninsured motorist problem, we have corrupted government problem.
We got that too, and compulsory car is not an example of it. Quote:
The reason for compulsory car insurance is that insurance industry finally learned how to bribe elected officials.
Surely you must know that the insurance and banking industries have been in bed together for a long time. I doubt they just figgered it out. Quote:
Optional insurance (any insurance) is just a tax on mathematically challenged. With so many people running around who can do math, bribing government is a good business decision that allows insurance industry to tap into large and otherwise unreachable market. There is only so many people who would volunteer to buy car insurance no matter how expensive
Right well I know plenty of people who can do math who use insurance. If you dont see the math behind insurance ???? I really dont follow your point.

Worldmariner | 10-08-2006 07:09 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 373703) Under limited liability NO ONE is directly responsible for their actions. Not only that, the 'auto liability insurance' isn't to protect the people and their property, it's to protect the state since the state is the legal owner of the 'motor vehicle' via a cestui qui trust (the CERTIFICATE OF TITLE scheme). .
I think your argumentis defective, but I cannot recall why... Could you by chance pooint me in the correct direction to learn (re-learn) this legal theory? Thanks!!

Worldmariner | 10-08-2006 07:20 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance Quote:
Originally Posted by demosfen (Post 375752) We don't have uninsured motorist problem, we have corrupted government problem. There is only so many people who would volunteer to buy car insurance no matter how expensive.
Well my fine feathered freind, let me say this about that... Until you have had a slap in the ass in the form of an auto liability lawsuit, quite honestly, you just have not lived. Nothing like a $650,000 lawsuit (middle car in a 5 car pile up)(how am i responsible for that??? I stopped in time, then was slammed from behind, causing me to slam into the guy in front) in California, 1988 dollars, then suddenly that $1200 a year in insurance fees looks like the best bargain going! Really, try getting sued. When it occurs to you that the "party of the first part" (the plaintiff) will now be sleeping in your bed, porking your wife, mowing your lawn and drinking you beer because the court basically signed over your whole life to him, I GAY-RON-TEE you will convert and become a believer. HOPEFULLY you have good legal counsel and will return fire with at least two other suits to offset your losses. Think of your life and lifestyle as a business.

demosfen | 10-08-2006 08:27 AM
Re: avoiding car insurance You must be worried about getting sued for monetary damages because you have property in your name that can be confiscated. It's a bad idea. Can you elaborate on the 'good legal counsel' thing? My understanding is that either you go to court per se, or hire a union shyster. You won't be allowed to be represented by a non-union lawyer

Atahualpa | 10-08-2006 12:12 PM
Re: avoiding car insurance Mandatory Insurance laws are for the purpose of expanding the list of offenses that the authorities can use to bring the hammer down on the little people. The insurance industry would prefer no mandatory insurance laws because statistics have proved that the percent insured is the same whether the laws are in place or not...and it also opens them up to a high risk policy holders that they normally wouldn't underwrite. The way to protect yourself from uninsured drivers is to have uninsured motorist coverage...you need this with or without mandatory laws. Mandatory insurance laws have the same purpose as the War on Drugs...a way to generate huge government revenues and a justification to come down hard on little people.

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