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G.W.Tanker | 01-11-2008 03:17 AM
Recommended HD firearm for the wife She's 5'2", uses a 38/357 pistol/carbine combo, she won't use my SA 45ACP & doubt she use a pump shotty or bolt rifle, rural house & farmyard environ. I'd want something she could easily put down intruders with when I'm not around. I'm a PGW vet so I've some training to provide her. I'd prefer a 223 or 308 carbine, maybe a low recoil semi-auto shotty; do Saiga12's kick much, what about low cost 308 surplus MBR's? It'd be nice if I could reload the ammo when I get enough casings or trade eggs/ham for parts/mags from enforcement types. I'm leaning away from the AR carbon fouler and the non-reloadable russian primered ammo. Maybe a saiga223 w/AR mag's; or saiga,centme,fal,other inexpensive 308. Low cost is a +++. A 308 bolt rifle is next. Input? If you please!

money matters | 01-11-2008 03:37 AM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife AR carbon fouler? Going to load your own ammunition? Just maintain the rifle. An m4 or a mini-14 Ranch Rifle is manageable, lightweight, and with a scope fast to hit with. A very short 20ga semi-auto shotgun might be nice too. Try #4 buckshot, slugs or BBs.

Infidel | 01-11-2008 03:48 AM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife I would suggest a 20 gauge shotgun with 2 3/4 shells http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_recoil_table.htm if you had quite a bit more cash then this it is about $1400. Beretta Xtrema2 <embed style="width:400px; height:326px;" id="VideoPlayback" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=1032624174739440974&hl=en" flashvars=""> </embed>

eat_beef | 01-11-2008 08:28 AM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife My wife is small, and we went with a 30 carbine. For her, it's not so much the recoil, but the weight/balance of the arm. The carbine is about the same weight as the M4, but the balance is better. She actually enjoys shooting it. Of course, the carbine round is no barn burner, but it's plenty reliable, semi auto, mag fed, and accurate enought for the distances she would use it. I'd rather have hits on target and reliability than a big magnum she was afraid of. JMO. A 20ga would also be great if you could talk her into it. If you're going to go 308MBR, there's no such thing as cheap. A chicom M14 or a Imbel gear recievered FAL would be good (and cheap) choices, but a case of ammo will cost as much as the rifle. The Cetmes are bringing about as much as those, and you're more likely to get a jamomatic than not.

noelephant | 01-11-2008 08:45 AM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife Quote:
Originally Posted by G.W.Tanker (Post 911972) She's 5'2", uses a 38/357 pistol/carbine combo, she won't use my SA 45ACP & doubt she use a pump shotty or bolt rifle, rural house & farmyard environ. I'd want something she could easily put down intruders with when I'm not around.
What is wrong with the 38/357 combo? It sounds like she has an effective combination there! If she likes it and trains on it I'd call it good enough.

mtnman | 01-11-2008 09:22 AM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife AK-47 try it, you'll like it!

<SLV> | 01-11-2008 09:30 AM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife Nothing beats a pistol in the house (.38 or 9mm minimum). If you really think she is going to be shooting at people outside of the house (sticky place to be legally) I agree with MMM ("Mr. MountainMan") -- AK-47. The Saiga's are a good entry point, and they work really well, but the relocated trigger group creates a need for reaching farther in front of the magazine to hold the forestock. I'd say that it would be uncomfortable for your wife (I found it awkward). This modification also places more of the weight forward. Therefore I agree with MMM, get a standard AK-47 w/16" barrel. Nice balance, maneuverable, high capacity, gentle recoil.

RiverRat | 01-11-2008 10:00 AM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife 1 Attachment(s) :rolleyes_m: Smaller women as a rule refuse to shoot larger caliber pistols or long guns. I didn't say can't....I said refuse. I started at .44 and worked down the list to a mild .32 with no avail. My wife flat out wouldn't touch a pistol that scared the hell out of her. She couldn't cycle the cocking action on a .25 Berreta automatic either,so it's a double action revolver only for her. I finally ended the debate with this: S&W 351 PD Airlite in .22 Magnum Pricy...but she loves it and is not afraid to use it.

<SLV> | 01-11-2008 10:08 AM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife My wife is choosing a CCW gun this morning. We are taking the kids to a sitter and we are going to the indoor range. I have a Glock 19 and Taurus .357 CIA (2" hamerless - she'll be shooting .38 sp) for her to try. The Taurus is idiot-proof -- even if she gets a FTF "click" there is nothing to clear, just pull the trigger again. However, the Glock has 15 rounds compared to the Taurus' 5 rounds, and magazines are easier to carry/change than speed-loaders. Also, the trigger pull is heavier on the Taurus than the Glock. I do think the Taurus would conceal better on her strong side than the blocky Glock. Ultimately it comes down to which one she likes to shoot and will feel comfortable carrying. Who knows... I might end up moving her down to a Kel-Tec 3AT or NAA .22 mag revolver.

wallew | 01-11-2008 02:44 PM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife Consider a lever action rifle in .37/.357 - that way your wife is familiar 'with the caliber' and you can just 'double up' on HER ammo. Problem solved for somewhere around $350 - $500, depending on your and her tastes in new or used lever action firearms. If you need direction on WHO makes what, look at this thread, as I already made this suggestion to a lady who take care of her mom. http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...d.php?t=218459

SilverCity | 01-11-2008 03:23 PM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife 1 Attachment(s) y'all have got it covered...all good choices. I might go with a 16" or 20" Chinese SKS (the Yugos are heavy). Stocks will fit a smaller person fine. Should find a decent one at your local gunshows... If she is recoil sensitive, I might not recommend a shotgun..even with tactical (reduced) buckshot. +1 on the Saiga...either .223 or 7.62x39...very little recoil, lowest cost. Stocks are a little longer...can be shortened I believe. Mini-14 is okay too, more "politically correct", original factory 20 round mags are $50...high caps will cost about the same with Saiga. Maybe the Kel-Tec SU-16...takes AR mags

<SLV> | 01-11-2008 05:41 PM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 912333) My wife is choosing a CCW gun this morning. We are taking the kids to a sitter and we are going to the indoor range. I have a Glock 19 and Taurus .357 CIA (2" hamerless - she'll be shooting .38 sp) for her to try. The Taurus is idiot-proof -- even if she gets a FTF "click" there is nothing to clear, just pull the trigger again. However, the Glock has 15 rounds compared to the Taurus' 5 rounds, and magazines are easier to carry/change than speed-loaders. Also, the trigger pull is heavier on the Taurus than the Glock. I do think the Taurus would conceal better on her strong side than the blocky Glock. Ultimately it comes down to which one she likes to shoot and will feel comfortable carrying. Who knows... I might end up moving her down to a Kel-Tec 3AT or NAA .22 mag revolver.
She liked the Glock 19 more than the Taurus CIA. I'm glad, because the Taurus couldn't hit anything at 15 yards, whereas the Glock grouped well under 5 inches. She is a little concerned about muzzle lift, but I think that it is just a matter of tecnique and practice.

SilverCity | 01-11-2008 05:44 PM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 913288) She liked the Glock 19 more than the Taurus CIA. I'm glad, because the Taurus couldn't hit anything at 15 yards, whereas the Glock grouped well under 5 inches. She is a little concerned about muzzle lift, but I think that it is just a matter of tecnique and practice.
Make sure she locks her wrist...this will prevent limp-wristing malfunctions.

Fullpower | 01-11-2008 07:22 PM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife a 38 or 9mm should be a good start. I strongly recommend NOT firing the .308 in the house. REALLY LOUD> painful even. just dont even try it.

White Magic | 01-11-2008 07:46 PM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife Get her a street sweeper! Kidding. My Dad bought my Mom a cheapie .25 automatic (I think it was either a Raven or a Jennings) and she's had a lot of fun with it. Women like those small caliber guns, and it never hurts to have another "throw away gun" around, just in case, right? :)

eat_beef | 01-11-2008 09:06 PM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife I'm glad to see the all AK, all the time crowd made it out.:rolleyes_m: Look, I'm not AK basher, I own a few, but it is definitely not the be all end all rifle. We're talking about a small female, who's not particularly into shooting here. All kinds of issues come into play. Aside from the fact that the AK is ergonomically substandard, most (unless you shell out the big bucks) are downright ugly (an issue with some females, and some males for that matter:D). The trigger (again except for the high enders) stinks (can be an issue with someone who is not comfortable firing a rifle, when the trigger is so inconsistent that you never know if it will take 5 or 15 pounds of pressure, or a little bit or the full range of creep). The stocks are rough (most females who've shot my cheapies have mentioned this). It's heavy (I'm a M14/Garand guy, so I could care less, but my wife can barely hold a milled rifle up, much less fire it accurately). There's a big wad of reciprocating mass (this part annoys me personally, and more than a couple of noobs have been scared by it, and even after a little practice they still notice it, which leads to them being less comfortable.) What I suggest to anyone trying to find a wife (or a non shooter) a weapon is to let them try as many types as possible. I have no idea how many pistols my wife fired before she settled on a Sig 230, but it was every one I could beg and borrow. She didn't like revolvers, because she "didn't like the round turney part moving when she pulled the trigger":bath:, and she didn't like glocks (of any flavor), because for some reason I can't figure out, she let her grip rotate with each shot, and the brass hit her in the forehead often. Of all things, it came down to a 380 an a 1911.:bear_w00t: My point is, let her choose what she likes, (and expect it to be the most expensive) otherwise it will just be one of "your" guns, and getting her out to shoot will be like pulling teeth. BTW, my wife won't shoot anything that doesn't react. Balloons, fruit, jugs of water (usually with food color :rolleyes:), it better splat, pop, or spray, or she loses interest. I wish I would have figured THAT out a few years earlier.

Bogie | 01-11-2008 10:09 PM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife 9mm Beretta Storm I have 2 (9mm & 45) there good guns the 9mm is a better unit due to recoil & mags. It is easily adjusted for the user and seams that anyone who tries mine ends up wanting one. Also my sister loves shooting it to the point she bought her own.

shades2 | 01-12-2008 06:16 AM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife I would recommend a Calico .22LR calibre semi-auto/auto with the full mag. Very controllable, holds about 100 rounds, very minimal recoil, and throws heaps of lead. We all laugh at the .22LR, one or two can ice a rabbit, but it's no laughing matter if you have 20 imbedded in you, particularly if the person has some accuracy. YouTube - Semi auto Calico .22 caliber rapid fire
YouTube - Semi auto Calico .22 caliber rapid fire
YouTube - Calico
YouTube - Calico
For carry, a Glock or SIG in 9mm or .357SIG sub-compact.

shades2 | 01-12-2008 06:23 AM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 913550) I'm glad to see the all AK, all the time crowd made it out.:rolleyes_m: Look, I'm not AK basher, I own a few, but it is definitely not the be all end all rifle. We're talking about a small female, who's not particularly into shooting here. All kinds of issues come into play. Aside from the fact that the AK is ergonomically substandard, most (unless you shell out the big bucks) are downright ugly (an issue with some females, and some males for that matter:D). The trigger (again except for the high enders) stinks (can be an issue with someone who is not comfortable firing a rifle, when the trigger is so inconsistent that you never know if it will take 5 or 15 pounds of pressure, or a little bit or the full range of creep). The stocks are rough (most females who've shot my cheapies have mentioned this). It's heavy (I'm a M14/Garand guy, so I could care less, but my wife can barely hold a milled rifle up, much less fire it accurately). There's a big wad of reciprocating mass (this part annoys me personally, and more than a couple of noobs have been scared by it, and even after a little practice they still notice it, which leads to them being less comfortable.) What I suggest to anyone trying to find a wife (or a non shooter) a weapon is to let them try as many types as possible. I have no idea how many pistols my wife fired before she settled on a Sig 230, but it was every one I could beg and borrow. She didn't like revolvers, because she "didn't like the round turney part moving when she pulled the trigger":bath:, and she didn't like glocks (of any flavor), because for some reason I can't figure out, she let her grip rotate with each shot, and the brass hit her in the forehead often. Of all things, it came down to a 380 an a 1911.:bear_w00t: My point is, let her choose what she likes, (and expect it to be the most expensive) otherwise it will just be one of "your" guns, and getting her out to shoot will be like pulling teeth. BTW, my wife won't shoot anything that doesn't react. Balloons, fruit, jugs of water (usually with food color :rolleyes:), it better splat, pop, or spray, or she loses interest. I wish I would have figured THAT out a few years earlier.
Hilarious! And you're quite right. The women shooters I know have spent $3000+ on a single handgun for competition, and they like to run around and target shoot, they don't seem to have much patience for traditional target. I never realised how bloodthirsty some women can actually be. ;) Some of the conversations are quite astounding. I'm always very careful to choose my words about shooting, I always stress safety, and talk about target shooting only. Whether it's men or women, it's always the quiet ones to watch. They sometimes have a lot of pent up psychological aggression that doesn't really surface until they hold a gun. :bear_w00t: I remember getting into a really minor argument over the number of rounds fired in a booth with a friend, I was quick to let him just win the argument, a shooting range is not the place for an argument with a live weapon around. I would rather lose an argument, and swallow my pride, than have something unexpected happen if things escalate. Needless to say, I don't take him shooting anymore. ;) As for the AK, I don't like wooden bits on most guns nowadays, particularly that non-ergonomic forestock, prefer polymer. I liked the Arsenal forged AK's a lot, but I'll probably never own one at this rate unless I move to the states. Our government won't even allow semi-autos anymore...

G.W.Tanker | 02-01-2008 08:01 PM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife Thanks for all of your input. Since posting, I'm leaning more toward an AR system but dang they are spendy. Here's my reasons: Already building stores of 38/357 ammo for the pistol/lever carbine combo and a good bunch of 230FMJ for my .45acp. Dang prices have gone up at least another 10% around here in just a month. I'm waiting on the shotty & HP rifle until I get an AR or AK carbine. The carbine 'cause my AO is rural & nearest house is 100M, next house 200M, next @ 500M in most directions, so I gotta be selective on my FoF's. It seems a fast dropping .45acp keeps the range limited and good punch. If I get a CAVII reciever, M3 mags, AR mags & two uppers (oly .45acp & any .223) I can have a short high cap thumper and then a longer surplus type carbine. But everytime I run the numbers ($), those AKs look better & better except I gotta be more selective about my FoF's. The wife could probably run these without a problem. Then I can get myself the HP rifle, shotty and maybe M38/44 &/or K31. I like what I have but I'm looking for more higher capacity than the pistol/lever carbine combo offers. What do you think? Am I nuts to even be wanting a .45acp carbine. Are CavII's any good? If so, seems the AK's are the way to go; with AR .223 costs going up.

Prometheus | 02-01-2008 08:31 PM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife Quote:
Originally Posted by G.W.Tanker (Post 948366) What do you think? Am I nuts to even be wanting a .45acp carbine.
Pretty much. The .45 is really struggling at 100 yards. Pistol carbines have their place, but definately not before your oother stated needs. FWIW The wife and I each own an Uzi... fun and 9mm still does very well at 100 yards. We are as much collectors and hobbists as survivalists, and the uzi definately falls under the first two categories. Quote:
seems the AK's are the way to go; with AR .223 costs going up.
All ammo is going up realitive in price... percentage wise 7.62x39 is the same to .223 as it was 4-5 years ago... Look for ALL ammo to trend upwards and the bigger 7.62x39 WILL be as pricey as the .223 in the not so distant future. I have a unique situation at my house... 3 daughters and a wife... The oldest is my step daughter at 10 and mine are 3 and 1. My wife loves springfield XD's and I do too. 9mm is our 'go to' pistol caliber, bash it if you like but you can't argue with newton's second law that puts 9mm in the same energy range as .45 and .40s&w. The 9mm also out performs .45 out past 50 yards... take it or leave it 16+1 rounds of 9mm and a caliber that my wife enjoys o shoot and shoots VERY well and a caliber the 10 y/o can handle... spells a winning combo for us. I do have some .45's but for hobby purposes mostly at this point, I stopped carrying my H&K USP .45 about 2 years ago in favor of the 9mm service XD. Next comes carbines aka 'assault' weapons. My wife likes the M1 carbine, but it's basically a 9mm for all intents and purposes... I wouldn't suggest adding that caliber unless you have the cash and want it as a hobby first. AK47, my wife likes it but not as much as... AK74, she loves it, great gun and right now 5.45x39 is $119 a sealed 1,080 round steel core tin at places like SOG and aimsurplus. thats CHEAP ammo. AR15, wife loves them, great guns, but don't skimp on quality.. you'll spend basically twice as much as a good AK74 clone Galil, my wife loves it and in fact bought her own. Great gun! G3, "it's ok"... to much recoil in the .308's honestly, same goes for a FAL. However she does like the SOCOM (mostly for it's looks)... Alot can be said for being able topull the trigger and not worry about recoil. Relook the 'smaller' calibers and you'll find something very effective that your wife will also be effective with!

SilverCity | 02-01-2008 08:36 PM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by G.W.Tanker (Post 948366) Thanks for all of your input. Since posting, I'm leaning more toward an AR system but dang they are spendy. Here's my reasons: Already building stores of 38/357 ammo for the pistol/lever carbine combo and a good bunch of 230FMJ for my .45acp. Dang prices have gone up at least another 10% around here in just a month. I'm waiting on the shotty & HP rifle until I get an AR or AK carbine. The carbine 'cause my AO is rural & nearest house is 100M, next house 200M, next @ 500M in most directions, so I gotta be selective on my FoF's. It seems a fast dropping .45acp keeps the range limited and good punch. If I get a CAVII reciever, M3 mags, AR mags & two uppers (oly .45acp & any .223) I can have a short high cap thumper and then a longer surplus type carbine. But everytime I run the numbers ($), those AKs look better & better except I gotta be more selective about my FoF's. The wife could probably run these without a problem. Then I can get myself the HP rifle, shotty and maybe M38/44 &/or K31. I like what I have but I'm looking for more higher capacity than the pistol/lever carbine combo offers. What do you think? Am I nuts to even be wanting a .45acp carbine. Are CavII's any good? If so, seems the AK's are the way to go; with AR .223 costs going up.
If costs are the bottom line and you like the AK action, take a hard look at the Saiga in .223 for around $250-275 price range...These are fine quality AKs and possess very good accuracy (2-3 MOA), great reliability with the cheapest Wolf ammo (prefer 62 SP)...and come in 16 and 20 inch chrome-lined barrels. Best deal on the market today, IMO. High capacity mags are available, if a little pricey...though worth having a few around anyway. The .223 would be optimum for your neighbors' sake as well--minimal chance of over penetration. Here is a picture of the 7.63x39 in 20 inch:

G.W.Tanker | 02-01-2008 10:31 PM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife Yes, thank you, its all good advice. Here's what I'm waffling over: parts&mags and ammo reloadable or not; all the what if's. What if imports are stopped long term? Too bad AK ammo isn't reloadable at the same low price as the nonreloable stuff. Then I'd get a trailer load of then with ammo. I've made some internet estimates of weapons, enough mags for 250rnds, and 1000rnds of ammo: AK's~850, Marlincamp45~1150, SU16~1200, Saiga223~1270, Mini14~1400, Oly AR15~1400, Marlincamp9~1475, CX4storm9~1500, M1Carbine~1550, CX4storm45~1775. The camps don't have the highcap I'm looking for. The Storms are just way too much & parts?. The M1Carbine again not the power & highcapacity combo I'm looking for but I like that's its US. The mini costs as much as an entry an AR. So here I am, AR or AK. Any crystal ball gazers out there?

G.W.Tanker | 02-01-2008 10:34 PM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife Oh, I forgot. I like the SU16 idea but it seems to be a little flimsy and proprietary on parts. The saige looks good but again it's import. Can't I just have it all in one?

<SLV> | 02-02-2008 12:35 AM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife Quote:
Originally Posted by G.W.Tanker (Post 948599) Yes, thank you, its all good advice. Here's what I'm waffling over: parts&mags and ammo reloadable or not; all the what if's. What if imports are stopped long term? Too bad AK ammo isn't reloadable at the same low price as the nonreloable stuff. Then I'd get a trailer load of then with ammo. I've made some internet estimates of weapons, enough mags for 250rnds, and 1000rnds of ammo: AK's~850, Marlincamp45~1150, SU16~1200, Saiga223~1270, Mini14~1400, Oly AR15~1400, Marlincamp9~1475, CX4storm9~1500, M1Carbine~1550, CX4storm45~1775. The camps don't have the highcap I'm looking for. The Storms are just way too much & parts?. The M1Carbine again not the power & highcapacity combo I'm looking for but I like that's its US. The mini costs as much as an entry an AR. So here I am, AR or AK. Any crystal ball gazers out there?
I've got a Kel-Tec Sub-2000 in 9mm that takes Glock 17 mags -- including the 33 rd. It isn't very comfortable to hold/aim, but it is a clever design. It folds in half for storage (WITHOUT a round in the chamber). I keep it as my office defense gun. I do wish it was more left-hand friendly. If you can find them they aren't too pricy. I shopped around last summer and got mine for $250, but I had to drive 6 hours one way. If you are open to SMGs you might consider an MP5 clone in a carbine format (like the Bobcat). Perhaps a little expensive, but they handle real well.

eat_beef | 02-02-2008 12:36 AM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife Romanian WASR 2 in 5.45x39- 350 bucks (they were 275 a few months ago). 30 rd. mags are 6 bucks. The aforementioned cheap ammo (.11 per round, delivered). Hard to beat if you're thinking .223 anyway.

the toxic avenger | 02-02-2008 09:01 AM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife Hi-Point carbines are cheap but every one I have ever seen cycles reliably and is pretty accurate also. I wouldn't suggest one of their pistols, but a .40 caliber carbine would have good stopping power inside 100 yards.

buff01 | 02-02-2008 01:58 PM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife it seems like a cheap mossberg pump shotgun would be perfect... just teach her how, and make sure to NOT buy magnum shells.

sand86 | 02-02-2008 06:27 PM
Re: Recommended HD firearm for the wife +1 for the keltec su16. I have the ca version and love it. It is compact and light. It takes AR mags. Mine has been reliablle. Folded it is a little over 24x9 inches. It is a carbine and manuevers well in tight spaces.

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