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1919A6 | 01-03-2008 12:47 PM
18 Rounds to accuracy 18 Rounds to accuracy�<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> PREFACE:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Note this and note it well � What is about to be detailed is NOT a panacea; it will not cure pitted and eroded barrels, nonexistent bedding, loose sights, poor marksmanship and poor shooting technique. <o:p></o:p> What it will do is systematically allow for the determination of that �Sweet spot� combination of powder, bullet and rifle for consistent accuracy. <o:p></o:p> HIT A PIECE OF METAL WITH A HAMMER:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Hitting a bar of metal with a hammer � it rings and it vibrates. The ringing is the audible evidence of the wave front (vibration) set in motion by the hammer. From the hammer strike, a wave (like a pebble in a pond) radiates out from that point. When the wave reaches the end of the bar of metal, it reverses and returns to the other end of the bar, so on and so forth until the wave energy is gone. <o:p></o:p> The firing of a cartridge in a barrel is the �hammer� which begins the wave, up and down the barrel. If the bullet and wave reach the end of the barrel at the same time, the exact departure of the bullet from the barrel from the flipping tip of the barrel varies from round to round. <o:p></o:p> However, the wave location in a rifle barrel[1] can be empirically determined. This article presents an empirical methodology to gather this physical information to determine the range of powder weights at which the muzzle is �still� (the vibration wave � node - is at the breech end of the rifle}. <o:p></o:p> WARNING, WARNING � DANGER WIL ROBINSON!<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Reloading ammunition is an activity that involves hazards, which can be controlled by adherence to long established safety procedures. All short-cuts are to be avoided. All loading data should be obtained from reliable published reloading manuals and, if necessary, advice on reloading techniques should be obtained from individuals who have experience in reloading ammunition. NO reloading data or recommendation for reloading will be given, only the empirical methodology will be described.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 18 ROUNDS TO ACCURACY�:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Select the rifle, powder, primer and bullet to be used. NEVER exceed recommended maximum powder weight. <o:p></o:p> Select a powder weight for the powder chosen.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Make a list of powder weights around that selected powder weight to be loaded. In medium[2] capacity cartridges (223, 7.62x39, 308), the difference of 3/10s of a grain (.3 grain) of powder, e.g. selected weight 43.0 grains, the list would look like this 42.1, 42.4, 42.7, 43.0, 43.3, 43.6. NEVER exceed recommended maximum powder weight.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Reload 3 rounds of ammunition for each powder weight listed, weighing each powder charges, label and set aside. <o:p></o:p> Obtain 6 targets suitable for the type of sights on the rifle being tested. The targets need to be of sufficient area to capture all round of the group fired at that target. NOTE: The M1A/M14 has both iron sights and the capability of mounting optical/electronic sighting systems. The traditional scope is easier to use precisely than iron sights or some electronic sighting systems. HOWEVER, iron sights (electronic sighting systems) can achieve the same end result so long as an appropriate sized target[3] is used. The range will be 100 yards/meters. <o:p></o:p> It is best to mark each target with the powder weight and bullet weight readable with a spotting or rifle scope at 100yards/meters. <o:p></o:p> Go to the range (it�s nice to have a friend to spot and help keep track of the rounds, targets, etc.). At the 100 yard/meter distance post all 6 targets in order of weights. You must insure that the powder weight cartridge is shot at the same powder weight designated target. <o:p></o:p> Shooting position.[4] Whatever position used, IT MUST be the same in all respects for each of the 18 rounds fired. For those who do not know how to use sand bagged rests, it is advisable to do so.[5] <o:p></o:p> At this point, from the position chosen, fire at least two fouling rounds[6] at a MISC bull to INSURE that the group of the series of round to be fired for record hit at or near the aiming point, thus well within the borders of the target sheet. If necessary, apply sight corrections, verify by correction by firing. <o:p></o:p> Lay out 6 rounds, one each of each powder weight (keep track of them, don�t mixed them up or get yourself confused). <o:p></o:p> Load the first round of the first series[7], take up a good firing position and sight alignment, and then fire that first round into the FIRST target so marked for that powder weight. In like manner, load the second round of the first series, firing it into the SECOND target so marked for that powder weight. So on and so forth until all 6 rounds are fired, one each into their respectively marked targets. Then repeat for the second series of 6 rounds in like manner of the first 6, and then for the last series of 6 rounds in like manner of the first and second 6. <o:p></o:p> At the end of firing, there are 6 targets with the record of the 3 rounds of the same weight powder charge, same weight bullet, fired from the same rifle from the same position. An analysis of the location and size of the 3 shot groups on the 6 different targets will indicate which weight of powder charge produced the �still� muzzle at the time the bullet exited the muzzle, that is, the wave front (node) is at or near the breech of the barrel of the rifle. <o:p></o:p> ANALYSIS: <o:p></o:p> What now? Study the targets, 1 through 6, lined up in order. There will appear two distinct things that lead to the determination of the �still� muzzle produced by a specific weight powder charge � the location of the group (primary) and the size (secondary). NOTE: Using GRID targets, that is, targets with a one inch grid printed on it assists in this visual analysis. Such targets free at http://www.targetz.com. <o:p></o:p> Accuracy of a rifle is the combination of many factors. Accurate ammunition is ammunition that consistently will go to the same point of impact every time it is fired out of the rifle for which it is zeroed. A bullet exiting a vibrating muzzle has an added component affecting its down range accuracy as opposed to a bullet exiting a �still� muzzle. How to determine a �still� muzzle? How to recreate the �still� muzzle? How to recreate the �still� muzzle without excessive expenditures of time and energy? Further, how does one pick the powder charge and know that it is not producing the vibrating muzzle? How does one know that there is a +- .3 grain tolerance envelope? <o:p></o:p> Without a lot of sophisticated equipment, the only element of reloading available to the reloader that is variable is the powder weight. A +-.3 grain tolerance window for a powder weight is a practical limitation imposed by the powder measures and the physical properties of the various powders themselves. Inexperienced first time reloader can readily develop the technique to throw consistent powder charge weights of +-.3 grain with even the most obstinate of powders. <o:p></o:p> My experience has shown that thrown powder measure charges checked with a powder scale can be off the mark by +- .1 to .3 grains depending on the type of powder being used during a reloading session. Thus, when it is reasonable to expect that the practical variation in the powder charge weights that can be consistently thrown through a powder measure will be +-.3 grain of the desired powder charge weight, a variation in powder weight smaller than that which can be practically achieved is a waste of time, powder, bullets, and primers. <o:p></o:p> Thus, a series of 6 targets presenting physical evidence of the attitude of the muzzle of the rifle barrel at the moment the bullet exited related to the precise weight of the powder charge used to launch that bullet. Those powder charge weights are .3 grain apart. <o:p></o:p> LOCATION:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> When the location of a three round group on one target appears to coincides with the location of a three round group on the target next to it, the targets on either side of those first two need to be examined to determine which target�s three round group most closely coincides with the groups of the first two targets.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> EXAMPLE: Tgt 1 one round � inch above and � inch to right of aiming point(AP), two rounds touching 1 inch above and 1 � inch left of the aiming point; Tgt 2 two rounds even with aiming point and one round 2 inches below and 1 � inch left of aiming point; Tgt 3 one round � inch left and 1 inch above aiming point, two rounds touching � inch left and 1 � inch below aiming point; Tgt 4 [one round � inch right and � inch below aiming point, one round � inch below and 1 � inch left of aiming point], one round in the left bottom of aiming point; Tgt 5 [one round � inch right and � inch below aiming point, one round 3/8 inch below and 1-1/8 inch left of aiming point], {one round � inch left and 1 � inch below aiming point} (classic three round triangle group); Tgt 6 one round 1/8 inch above and � inch left of aiming point, {one round 1 � inch below and � inch left of aiming point}; one round 2 3/8 inch below and 1 � inch left of aiming point.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Tgt 1 is out � center of group upper left quadrant from AP. Tgt 2 was thrown out � center of group over 1 inch left and one inch below AP. Tgt 3 ends up being lower end of the powder weight because the underlined rounds there when superimposed on the underlined round of Tgt 5 are touching. Three touching rounds two targets and .6 grain of powder apart. Tgt 4 other than being between Tgts 3 and 5 with the superimposed three touching rounds, the rounds in [ ]s for all practical purposes coincide exactly with the [ ]ed rounds on Tgt 5.<o:p></o:p> Tgt 6 presents a problem because the { }ed round and the { }ed round on Tgt 5 when superimposed are touching and the round just above and left of the aiming point is within the grouping parameters of Tgts 3, 4 and 5. The determinative factor was the third, lowest and furthest round from the AP which pulled the center of that three round group outside the 1 inch grid square touching the center of the AP and extending down and to the left. It was in this grid square that the group centers of the groups on Tgts 3, 4 and 5 were located. <o:p></o:p> GROUP SIZE:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In the above EXAMPLE, the groups on Tgts 4 and 5 were tight. Tgts 3 and 6 being on either side were vertically strung and just under 2 � inch; both had individual rounds that give points leaning in favor of both; HOWEVER, the deciding factors were the larger overall group size of Tgt 6 and the group center fell outside of the 1 inch grid square that contained the group centers of Tgts 3, 4 and 5. <o:p></o:p> Finally, I reduced each powder weight of the final three sequential targets by 1/10 grain.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> To verify this analysis, produce one round of ammunition for each sequential target powder weight, and test fire them at the test distance in the same manner the test was conducted. They will group together in the same location. <o:p></o:p> The secondary benefit obtained is a consistent group size with the combination of powder, primer, bullet and rifle. Remember, this method is to determine in a logical and systematic way a particular range of powder weights. Should the nature of the group suggest moving the +-.3 window 1/10 of a grain one way or the other � try it! <o:p></o:p> Carlos Hathcock, White Feather, used a rifle that only shot 2 MOA. He had available rifles that would shoot 1 MOA. Why did he use the worn-out 2 MOA rifle? Simple, the rifle and ammunition shot to where he aimed every time, the others didn�t! <o:p></o:p> CONCLUSION:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> With the cost of ammunition going up and the accuracy of same of a questionable nature, reloading is a viable option, but a load that give consistently good ammunition is the desired end. <o:p></o:p> What has been described here has been done by me. This article is the record of that effort. For the record, the M1A used is 20+ years old, all military parts, except the receiver, in a military synthetic stock purchased from Fred�s, the scope used is a Leopold 3.5 x 10 mounted on a single screw attachment point extruded aluminum mount of the same era. With 150 grain Sierra Flat Base bullets, three sequential targets gave the same location and a group size of 1.25�X1.375� and the 165 grain Sierra Hollow Point Boattail, three sequential targets gave the same location and a group size of 1�. Verification of those three sequential powder weights confirmed the load. <o:p></o:p> Permission is granted for personal use and non-commercial reproduction of this article. Commercial reproduction, that is, for compensation of all or part of this article is prohibited without express written approval. <o:p></o:p> � 2008 by Stephen-Louis: Wozny, All rights reserved.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Stephen-Louis: Wozny hold a Class II manufacturer�s license. <HR align=left width="33%" SIZE=1>[1]Even rifles with �stuff� hung on the end of the barrel.<o:p></o:p> [2] I am die-hard fan of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><st1:place>U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> military rifle calibers � 223, 308 and 30-06. I view the 223 and 308 - medium, thus 3/10s of a grain variation; the 30-06 - large, thus 4/10s of a grain variation; the magnums, such as 300 Win Magnum, 338 Lapua Magnum, etc., I do not reload but would be of the opinion that 1% of the nominal powder charge weight would be a good difference to start with and fine tune from there. [3] Shooting at 100 yards/meters using a 10x power scope and typical cross-hairs, a one inch diameter dot of contrasting color (I used that) in the middle of a 8.5x11 inch sheet of paper (handy size to retain for your reloading records and kitchen table analysis) so long as all rounds fired hit that size sheet. Iron sights, generally found on M1A/M14 and other military semi-auto rifles, have front sight posts that are LARGE and WIDE, thus the need for a LARGE and WIDE aiming bull. I have tried (I like to use iron sights) a variety of aiming bulls for zeroing and accuracy testing. The one that I have found to be most effective is the Canadian bull described in the Rhodesian Army manual for the FN-FAL, which is a 9x9 inch black square with a 4x3 inch white rectangle centered on the lower edge of the black square (visualize a thick up-side-down U, 3 inches of black then 3 inches of white and then 3 inches of black along the bottom with the 3 inches of white extending 4 inch into the middle of the black square). [4] The position was in the nature of a bench rest position. The fore stock rested upon a sand bag, no part of the barrel or gas cylinder touching the sand bag. The butt stock rested on a sand bag with the non-firing hand used to steady and adjust the butt stock to align the sights. The magazine and trigger group touched NOTHING! [5]I do not advise using the bench rest method for the purposes of zeroing this type rifle.<o:p></o:p> [6]Make sure you take extra ammunition of the same bullet weight, above and beyond the test rounds, for this purpose. If testing two or more bullet weights, verify the zero with this extra ammunition prior to firing the new bullet weight test rounds. <o:p></o:p> [7]Load one round into the magazine, lock the bolt to the rear, insert magazine and using the bolt release or pulling back on the Op Rod to disengage the hold open device, let the recoil spring drive the bolt forward, stripping and chambering the round.<o:p></o:p>

SilverCity | 01-03-2008 01:24 PM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy One caveat missing...when shooting the M1A use the SAME magazine for testing accuracy and POI. These can CHANGE when using different mags. Then find at least THREE mags that will shoot to the same POI and mark them somehow so they don't get mixed in with the other mags. This is one of the things match shooters must do to shoot consistent groups... It has something to do with magazine spring tension on the follower. He is correct in always loading from the magazine--with the bolt locked back, charging by the bolt release button OR pulling charging handle all the way back--this more closely duplicates actual firing operation of the weapon.

1919A6 | 01-03-2008 03:26 PM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy I do not want to start a flame but ... There are wives tales out there (superstitions if you will) that have been passed down through the ranks of shooter forever. That being said - Yes, check your magazines to make sure that they fit the rifle and function properly. As far as affecting accurate - conduct a test in the manner described in the article. Get a good accurate ammo/rifle combo then instead of varying the powder weight vary the magazines from target to target. You should also determine whether you will use a full, partially full, or empty magazines in the test. IMHO and only IMHO, I think the average shooter will find that he/she cannot tell the difference between magazines. BUT, I will pick some magazines at random and check it out.

1919A6 | 01-03-2008 04:05 PM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy SilverCity, Actually I have hear of the magazine issue for FN-FAL rifles because of the tilting breech block lock up it employs, but that rifle was never designed as a precision rifle, it was designed as an infantry battle rifle. There is a BIG difference.

SilverCity | 01-03-2008 04:55 PM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy Quote:
Originally Posted by 1919A6 (Post 900449) SilverCity, Actually I have hear of the magazine issue for FN-FAL rifles because of the tilting breech block lock up it employs, but that rifle was never designed as a precision rifle, it was designed as an infantry battle rifle. There is a BIG difference.
The M14 was certainly designed as an infantry battle rifle. I have owned five M1As over the years...3 NM Grade and 2 Std Grade...from Springfield Armory. I am not a fan of the Reese bros. product or their customer service. I consider M1As to have superior accuracy capability--3 MOA@ 600yards--IF properly tuned, including proper action bedding, match-grade barrel, properly tuned trigger, NM match sights, match quality ammo., etc. and may cost $2500 and up... The magazine problem is a real one in my experience, and in the experience of some top competitive shooters I have talked to. Most shooters don't shoot to 600 yards, where small variables with the rifle can make significant differences at longer distance...the difference between winning and losing a match. Spend $2500 or more tuning a FAL and you could probably get similar results. I own or have owned six FAL rifles, so I am well aware of it's strengths and weaknesses. And yes FALs can have the mag issues, too. But I am not concerned since, as you pointed out, it is a battle rifle. Even my poorest example, 4-6 MOA at 300 yards with surplus 7.62 Nato Ball ammo is quite sufficient for my purposes...

1919A6 | 01-03-2008 05:44 PM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy SilverCity, I have owned about that many also. The two I currently are working with are 20+ year old Springfield Armory standard grade. Both will shoot, from slinged sitting position into 6 to 8 inches at 400 yds - 1.5 to 2.0 MOA with Aussie surplus. Nothing has been done to these rifles except NM sights and NM flash suppressors. This is BEGINNING stuff, I only wish someone had something like this 40 years ago when I cranked out my first reload.

Fullpower | 01-03-2008 06:29 PM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy Thank you for sharing your expertise. I will try this next time I crank out some rifle ammo. I surmise that the identical technique would be a productive way to sort through several brands of commercial or surplus ammunition, and discover which shoots best in a particular rifle. I just had the idea that ambient temperature would have a far greater impact on chamber pressure and thus muzzle velocity, and chamber to muzzle acceleration than even a full grain change in propellent charge. the difference in chamber pressure form a chilly minus 15 degree day in january compared to a sweltering 105 or so in bright sun could be on the order of 4 or 5000 PSI. Even a greater differential might exist between the first round from a cold chamber and the last round from a string, when chamber temp could be well over 250 degrees. I have not used a chronograph, but notice they are getting pretty inexpensive these days.

shades2 | 01-04-2008 08:35 AM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy I also read somewhere that it's not advisable to reload .338 Lapua Magnum brass if you're going for accuracy. I'm sure it's possible to do so though, and the thing has kind of been fire-formed already, but there may be some concerns about the condition of the brass due to the higher pressures involved, 2 reloads being a maximum.

RiverRat | 01-04-2008 10:31 AM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy :rolleyes_m: Not trying to be picky here...BUT Those of us who are into military battle rifles would slug the barrel of any rifle before we even thought about reloading ammo for it. Some battle rifles are not worth the effort even in new,unissued state. People assume all firearms are shipped with factory perfect barrel bores and low tolerance headspace..yeah...in your dreams. Sometimes your best reloading efforts are doomed out of the gate because there are civilian grade firearm tolerances and then there are military grade firearm tolerances. A good reloader knows his brass,bullets,and powder. He/she can work around some hardware deficiencies and come up with custom bullets and loads to suit the gun,but it is a time consuming process that has no guarantee of success. So don't let the experts brainwash your thought process when it comes to achieving consistent accuraccy...there ain't no free rides. Nothing can make a really bad firearm shoot consistent groups unless you either spend a fortune on it or just live with it's quirks and forget about it. My biggest gripe is with wannabe weekend warriors who think an AK-47 or an AR can shoot 1 MOA groups at 200 yards out of the box. If you find one...let me know :>) Sometimes it all comes down to what a firearm was designed for. A few of the old Milsurp rifles like the K/98 Mauser's and Mosin Nagant Snipers as examples,can group 1 MOA at 300 yds all day long until your arms get tired with the right reloaded ammo. Assault rifles like the AR's,AK's,FN's,VZ's,etc were not designed for super grade hunting accuracy to begin with. With these kind of weapons 3 MOA at 100 yards is considered acceptable by military standards.Don't knock yourself out trying to custom load a bullet-powder combination that will make it a deadly sniper rifle...it's not going to happen at 18 rounds or 180 rounds. :D:bear_w00t::D

1919A6 | 01-04-2008 11:32 AM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy Skyvike and RiverRat are, in the areas that they have commented, correct. In fact in "18 Rounds to accuracy", I relate that Carlos Hathcock, who COULD shoot a 1 MOA rifle to 1 MOA, chose to carry into "Indian" territory a rifle that would only shoot 2 MOA? The answer - Because it would put that 2 MOA bullet placement where he wanted it every time. He did not carry 4 MOA ammo for that gun either. That is the point of the article! The point of the article, if you stay on point, is to present a procedure that will get the shooter/reloader to a load that can reasonable be expected to maintain a certain degree of accuracy time in and time out. All of the comments, IMHO are valid, but please address the subject of the article don't cloud it with other areas of "firing the shot".

money matters | 01-04-2008 12:10 PM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy You sure don't need to go to all the trouble the article suggests to "find" an accuracy load. Buy the Sierra loading manual and read the sections on match shooting and look at the accuracy loads they list with match grade bullets. Start there. Chances are if your rifle won't deliver the goods with one of those loads, you have issues to work on. Or try a few boxes of Black Hills, or Federal gold medal match ammunition to eliminate your doubts. The Lapua magnum is not a particularly behemoth or different in operational pressure range from other super-magnum cartridges. Once-fired brass is preferable to virgin, if it was fired in the same rifle barrel/chamber and that chamber is cut to precision tolerances. Not like a $3k rifle won't have its chambering as an accuracy focus, but stranger things happen. I would avoid "slugging" any barrel you expect accuracy from. If you are not sure of the barrel diameter and thereby the quality, replace it. Are you using plain, non-coated, cleaning rods? Plainly then, you are doing most of the damage to your rifle's accuracy potential with your own negligence. What makes for an "accurate" rifle? Ammunition and chamber oal are the primary factors. Many "informed shooters" consider anything other without a custom barrel from a premier barrelmaker to be junk. Not so! If the chamber on that "junk" barrel is within +.001-.0005" of Go-gage oal you will see excellent consistency. If your ammunition is consistent, adjusted to correct bullet jump, (seated into or just off the lands), and loaded to less than maximum velocity/pressure, you will gain additional consistency. If you are loading for a magazine fed rifle, typically loading for the longest oal (overall length) which allows smooth magazine functioning is the best starting point. If you want to learn to shoot accurately, buy the best equipment and ammunition you can afford. The most critical element of the equation is riflescope and scope base & rings. Better to have a Leupold Mk4 scope and Badger Ord rings and base on a Remington or Winchester Varmint rifle than a $3k custom rifle with second rate sighting gear.

<SLV> | 01-04-2008 12:14 PM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy The fact of the matter is that if you are more likely to post tight groups from a bench, then that same ammo/charge is likely going to be better even if you are out of breath and shooting off-hand. I think there is something to be said for knowing that the bullet will strike a pinpoint in the dead center of your reticle. After that, it is up to you to pull the trigger correctly no matter the situation. I don't think anyone is off topic, but I believe that the two matters (gun accuracy vs. human accuracy) are exclusive and should be dealt with as seperate matters. And, it is hard to deal with (measure) the human accuracy aspect if the tool is not dead on, so this 18-shot system seems to be a good first step. PS - Although I agree that it is a waste of time to handload for certain battle rifles.

SilverCity | 01-04-2008 02:53 PM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy Not to belabor the magazine issue...but some match shooters choose the M1 Garand converted to .308...exactly because of the aforementioned problem of the variation of spring tension between mags. The Garand's consistent follower assembly eliminates that variable. My experience...some M1A mags "threw" the .50-.75 inch group ONE INCH off dead center bullseye at 100 yards...multiply that error out to 600 yards...

money matters | 01-04-2008 06:34 PM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 902036) Not to belabor the magazine issue...but some match shooters choose the M1 Garand converted to .308...exactly because of the aforementioned problem of the variation of spring tension between mags. The Garand's consistent follower assembly eliminates that variable. My experience...some M1A mags "threw" the .50-.75 inch group ONE INCH off dead center bullseye at 100 yards...multiply that error out to 600 yards...
Which "match shooters"? Very few Service Rifle competitors still shoot the M14. I doubt there are any getting the job done with a Garand, much less one converted to .308 Win. Sure it can be done, but there arises an issue with slam-fires in the .308 chambered Garands. At least the guys at Fulton Armory say there is. They are about the foremost authorities on Garands these days. The M14 or M1a needs a bunch of work done to make it capable of the competing with the inherent accuracy of the AR-10 and AR-15 rifle design. The radial lug bolts of the AR design and unitized upper receiver assembly are many times more conducive to accuracy mods than the Garand designed rifles. The Garand needs a barrel, match gas system mods, extensive stock work and a rear lugged receiver to make it competitive.

SilverCity | 01-04-2008 06:49 PM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 902330) Which "match shooters"? Very few Service Rifle competitors still shoot the M14. I doubt there are any getting the job done with a Garand, much less one converted to .308 Win. Sure it can be done, but there arises an issue with slam-fires in the .308 chambered Garands. At least the guys at Fulton Armory say there is. They are about the foremost authorities on Garands these days. The M14 or M1a needs a bunch of work done to make it capable of the competing with the inherent accuracy of the AR-10 and AR-15 rifle design. The radial lug bolts of the AR design and unitized upper receiver assembly are many times more conducive to accuracy mods than the Garand designed rifles. The Garand needs a barrel, match gas system mods, extensive stock work and a rear lugged receiver to make it competitive.
Well, you are right it was many years ago...and my memory is hazy...maybe early 80s. I briefly owned a Navy NM .308 Garand. A state rifle champion friend I worked with as recent as 6-7 years ago used to shoot the M1A. He finally gave it up for the AR-15. I myself threw in the towel on the M1 and M1A years ago. Way too finicky. I agree on the inherent accuracy of the AR system, but if shooting little tiny groups at distance was my goal...I would choose a bolt gun over any autoloader. There's just something about slamming that round into the chamber when a nice gentle stroke will do...

money matters | 01-04-2008 07:12 PM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy Aside from wind judgment skills, the novice shooter with direction or coaching will do much better with better equipment. Unless you are a High Master shooter, better gear will deliver an edge. An expert will likely be able to take a rack grade rifle and make it perform, but that is innate ability at work; something few will ever have reason or capability to develop. A match grade rifle is simply easier to shoot well than one without a tuned trigger and "standard" barrel, whatever that may be. The match rifle will have that short oal headspaced chamber and will have been throated and be twist-specific for optimum performance with one weight bullet. A trigger that breaks crisp with no creep will enable better performance, which is what "accuracy" is. Being able to shoot from a benchrest position is a starting point for skillful shooting, but being able to call your shots from standing, prone and sitting positions is the measure of "usable accuracy". There is a great deal to be said for the confidence inspiration good gear provides. Much of the shooting sport is between the ears, the more confidence a shooter has, the better he/she will perform.

1919A6 | 01-04-2008 09:02 PM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijah (Post 901746) Oops, sorry, guess I was writing my post when you posted. A bit off topic for me as usual.:offtopic::signs14:
Don't be. I've got a few rounds of '06 belted up for an A6. It has only been in the last 3 months or so that surplus anything has exceeded the cost of the supplies I put away (at a very good price then!) 20 odd years ago. This article is for the "Fred" shooters out there.

1919A6 | 01-04-2008 09:15 PM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy One thing that I'll say - My article sure did bring alot of GOOD advise and wisdom out of the woodwork. One must, of course, re-read it all a number of times to distill the essence, but I must say this is the most pleasant discussion I have been involved within years!

RiverRat | 01-04-2008 11:22 PM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy :rolleyes_m: We all have different end uses for a weapon. My point was not to detract from the original article,but to supplement it. My favorite rifle is a customized bolt action .270 Winchester Model 70 XTR that will shoot .5 MOA at 400 yards on the days I'm good enough to actually be calm and consistent. But...that kind of accuracy didn't happen with 18 rounds friends and neighbors...try 300+ rounds and lot's of recipe deviations beyond the scope of this discussion. I have a pre ban IMI heavy barrel Uzi that will put most AR's and AK's to shame,but if I were to be faced with kill or be killed real war conditions I'd reach for my pre ban Polytech MAK 90 AK-47 every time. A wall of lead beats accuracy any day when the bad guys are out to kill you :>) Now let's talk about the fun factor... It took me a month to work up loads for my Milsurp Mosin Nagant Model 38 carbine to even achieve consistent 2 MOA at 100 yards...but for a $50.00 rifle that has took down 6 whitetail deer over the years it's a blast to shoot and I'm happy. Interestingly,one of the most accurate Milsurp guns I ever bought was a Chinese SKS Paratrooper carbine. ( I like carbines :>) Using ordinary Milsurp ammo it would consistently shoot 1.5 MOA at 100 yards with no sweat...not bad for a rifle that cost me $125.00 back when they were still cheap...wish I hadn't sold it :>( Great discussion guys...I'm by no means an expert. I just like shooting guns. :D:D:D One of my favorite movies is Enemy At The Gate...those old Mauser's and Mosin Nagants were deadly in the right hands.

1919A6 | 01-05-2008 12:05 PM
Re: 18 Rounds to accuracy Right on, RiverRat!

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