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- - Housing/Shelter talk: (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=102974)

Scorpio | 01-22-2007 06:35 PM
Housing/Shelter talk: Looking for any and all ideas regarding new housing, starting from scratch. Tn, I remember you talking about 8" walls. Up here efficiency is a primary concern. What would you say to 6" walls with blown in expandable foam instead? Then everything can be standard. I used it on a rehab project with 4" walls once, and it made a huge difference compared to normal methods. I too hate Tyvek, worthless crap. Is there suitable replacements to achieve the same in theory? I have tried other housewraps, and have had no trouble to date, whereas Tyvek was a spendy lesson. Would probably use stone/stucco combo exterior, so the paper has to deal with that. No plastic siding for this one. Up here, standard is forced air furnaces run on Ngas or Propane. I would prefer to do an outside furnace system, pipe in hot water heat, and have a possible loop system for cooling. Haven't totally designed it yet. Ideas? Was thinking a possible split system for summer and winter. Winter it runs through the exterior boiler, summer it runs through coils underground to cool the water and back through the heat exchanger. Was thinking of exterior building housing the backup generator, the heat system, and storage for fuel. Fuel storage underground or above ground? Will be well and septic, so I won't be on the city life line. Any special requirements on a food storage room? Years ago, root cellars were common, but now? When in Alaska, we just hung stuff out the windows to keep it frozen. Dehumidifiers? Humidifiers? Air quality? Ext finishes? Int finishes? Asthma friendly? The place it is going doesn't have earth berm capabilities, or I would entertain the thought. Been in the business a long time, just want fresh ideas to incorporate, instead of the same old crap churned out by all of us. Gonna start drafting it up soon, and the old saying two heads is better than one came to mind.

Lackluster | 01-22-2007 06:43 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: If multi story, consider ballon framing. You can insulate th areas between floors better. Maybe?

Horn | 01-22-2007 06:46 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Latest rage is for "Greenbuild" products. Leed certified giving tax/mortgage breaks. http://www.nudura.com/Content.cfm?C=...MI=646&L1M=646 This is one of the many products we are using. Same cost as wood. http://www.litedeck.com/ ^^^crazy stuff^^^ Subs go up a hair for elect./hvac system. Will put you in contact with the factory rep. if you wish.

GOLD DUCK | 01-22-2007 07:04 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: QWAK,scorpio,Don't know if this would be helpfull or not but you mentioned "Dehumidifiers?" I have one that I riged up with a small float activated pump and it takes the moisture out of the air and what you get is almost distilled water. So it could posably be used in EXTREAM situations as a source for drinking water. I plan to set it up so it adds water to a big FISH TANK when I get some more stone leveled to be the suport of the tank. The fish tank will be sort of built in to the stone wall. I had a friend who took an old FREEZER (a BIG one) and cut a side out, instaled GLASS and built it in to a wall of his basment,it was behind his bar and he could kick back and go FISHING any time he wanted! :haha: :hahaha: Its UNCONVENTIONAL and not very expencive to build. It realy was COOL ,the fish in that big tank!:haha: :haha: the DUCK

Kahlil Gibran | 01-22-2007 07:25 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio (Post 483019) I remember you talking about 8" walls. Up here efficiency is a primary concern. What would you say to 6" walls with blown in expandable foam instead? Then everything can be standard. I used it on a rehab project with 4" walls once, and it made a huge difference compared to normal methods.
Mr. Scorpio: I investigated/pondered this for ages. 2x8 @24" o.c. walls with double fiberglass batt insulation is not much more labor-intensive. Expandable foam requires special equipment, involves chemicals, and transmits sound. :smile: an air-tight house should have an air-to-air heat exchanger that changes the interior air at least twice per hour.

Tn...Andy | 01-22-2007 07:47 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Whew...tall order. but I'd love to design one from the ground up....SO much you can do nowdays. Ceiling insulation......I'd be going for R-50-60 up you way. Mine is 38 here. I'd shoot for R-30 walls up there at a minimum, however you have to get it. If you go with 6" walls, and foam in place ( I don't know what the R value of the foam is ), I would also go with a 1" foam on the outside to cover the studs.....otherwise, they are the weak point in the link, bleeding heat at each wood point. My own walls are double 2x4 with an 1" of foam on the outside of that.....the outer studs are on 24" centers and the inner wall on 16" centers, with about 1" separating them....they join together at the top of the wall with a plate of 9" x 3/4" plywood across the standard 2x4 plate. Overall wall thickness is 10". I wouldn't worry about staying with "standard" wall thickness.....extension jambs for doors and windows are no real trick to make. My windows ( Andersen Casements ) have lovely red oak extension jambs, seats and headers that are about 8" deep.....wife loves 'em for places to put her weeds...er, I mean FLOWERS.....ahahahaaa I know due to frost line, about every home up there is built with a basement.....and then a convention wood floor. I would consider a 4" concrete floor even though it required more support on the basement level. About 2/3 of my first floor is on concrete slab on grade, then the rest on full basement with wood floor. If I had to do it again, I'd go concrete all the way thru.....then run PEX tubing in the concrete for heating. Think MASS. I also built a MASSIVE chimney in the center of our house....I have no clue how many tons of masonary mass is in it, but it's a LOT. The chimney is 6' x12' from the basement to the point it goes out the roof ( then I reduced it to a normal looking chimney) and includes a brick wall in the living room and the bedroom side. The advantage of large amounts of MASS is it tends to moderate temperature swings. Once you heat it up, you have a LOT of heat tied up in that, and it only takes a little bit to keep it going. PEX infloor heating wasn't much of an option when I built mine, but today, it's the only form of heating I'd consider. This would mesh great with that outdoor furnance you've been looking at. For cooling, you could go with a convention ducted AC system of course, but I'd also look at zoned mini split systems. Another advantage of massive amounts of insulation and mass is the cooling side is also easier. Our house stays fairly comfortable until late July and August, and even then only in the late afternoon. I did not put an AC system in when we first built.....I added a Mitsubishi mini system a couple years ago, and it works GREAT. Quiet....no ductwork, installed it myself basically. Have no idea about humidifiers or dehumidifiers up there. As to air quality, I'd be looking to make the house a TIGHT as physically possible, then look at a fresh air intake with a heat exchanger. I'd also design every exterior door opening so it was "airlocked".....no exterior door opens directed to the outside.....you have vestibule or enclosed porch that you enter, then the exterior door. A separate building for a wood furnace and generator would be great ! I'd go for a small diesel generator.....5-10kw at most, and get one that produces at a low RPM like 1800 or less for long life and less noise. If you can build the building back into a bank, that would be great.....muffle the generator noise, then put an underground tank on the bank side and gravity feed the generator. I'd also seriously consider the setup Rich G has with batteries and inverters....that is the MOST efficient way to use a generator. Batteries supply you with power when you are off grid power, then the generator recharges the batteries when they discharge to a certain point, the inverter controlling the start and stop of the generator. That way, you aren't running a genset to power a few small things running ( like a single light, or even a refrigerator ) that aren't using anywhere near the capacity of the genset. Instead of running 24hrs/day, it may only run a couple hours a day.....when you have a peak load. I'd go propane with every appliance that requires heat.....stove, dryer, water heater ( go tankless ), and any supplimental heat you might want for early fall or late spring when you really don't want to fire up the wood. Propane you can store to an extent....NG puts you at the mercy of others. Exterior finish ? Masonary would be my first choice.....stone or brick....mass, mass, mass.....plus low or no maintenance. Pay for it up front and forget it. Interior....lot of choice there....if asthma is an issue, avoid wall to wall carpet....hardwood and tile rule. Food storage room I'd take some more pains with......every 10 degrees you can lower the average storage temp of food, you increase the time a LOT.....I've seen figures in the 50% range......I'd shoot for earth temps of about 50 degrees year round for most storage goods. But you have to have low humidity for canned goods and such so you don't get rust....and just about the opposite for fresh foods like potatoes and apples.....so there is no good mixed multipurpose room that will work if you plan to do both. Security ala concealment for food storage would also be a strong consideration IF I was going from scratch......have a couple thoughts I'll PM you if you want.

keehah | 01-22-2007 08:33 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: A must have: http://www.joelskousen.com/Secure/secure.html Quote:
Book Description This is the long awaited update of Mr. Skousen's original and popular work, The Survival Home Manual, last printed in 1982. It has a new title and is a near total rewrite--expanded from 300 pages to 700 pages. This book is intended to give you all the information you need to implement a high security and self-sufficient residence or retreat, from initial design strategy to shelter construction details. Mr. Skousen's design specialty is building high security, totally self-sufficient homes that are completely off-the grid. This massive volume shows you how to accomplish the complex process of integrating all of the security and self-sufficiency systems into a conventional structure. His unique multi-purpose, high security shelter designs allow a person to install a concealed safe room within a conventional home that offers complete live-in protection from tornadoes, hurricanes, fire, intrusion and nuclear fallout. These are self-contained with independent electrical power, water, food storage and communications and compact living facilities--all with convenient access from inside your own home. His voluminous lists of specific product and equipment recommendations, along with sources, will save you months of research. These lists are updated regularly on his website so that your copy of The Secure Home will never be out of date. From the Publisher Joel Skousen's books are highly sought after due to the great amount of hands-on experience he has in this field. His original Survival Home Manual was the pioneering work in the high security residential field, over 25 years ago. This completely new work, with an updated title (The Secure Home) is destined to replace his original work as THE definitive work in the field of self-sufficient and high security architecture. http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/image...ange-arrow.gif See all Editorial Reviews
http://www.amazon.com/Secure-Home-Jo.../dp/1568610556 Lots of independent research in it as well. E.g. 2x4 steel stud then plywood added to exterior walls or a safe room and filled with 3/8inch gravel for self healing wall to protect from small arms fire!

NOOB | 01-22-2007 08:51 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Have you thought about insulated concrete forms with a ton of rebar? Might come in handy if ts ever hit your particular fan. I have worked in a couple of these houses and they seem like a great way to build. I will be building a new home in the next 5 years on the farm I purchased in TN. I am seriously considering the concrete route. NOOB

Scorpio | 01-22-2007 09:43 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Great stuff guys, I would like to stay away from balloon framing, as I was never a fan of it. Saw too many issues taking 'em apart. Not to mention, long decent wood lengths are harder to come by, and increase overall costs. Should be able to handle the insul quite well using other methods. Thanks Horn, bookmarked them. We have versions of the lite forms around here, and I haven't used them to date. Might be a time to start. Noob, hit on those links, as I agree with you. Horn also hit on floor systems using concrete. Duck, now that sounds like fun to incorporate, a tank and fireplace for a rustic interior look that I will be after. Kahlil, I am with you on that one. I have come to believe that FG is just old technology, that is inefficient comparatively in this climate. Many Swiss houses I believe are using panelized construction with foam and two layers of sheathing, with no studs, except at buck openings, or load bearing locations. I was wondering about incorporating that style with the roof and walls. Yep Andy, tall order. Trying to balance overall cost with efficiency. Would rather spend the fiat on 'smart' tech than on frivolous crap that it seems every yuppie wants now. They have no structure, but by God they have a Jacuzzi. That foam is 5 per inch Andy, so would get over the 30 hump, as I agree with you. I was thinking along the same lines, 6" foamed with 1" over the top, but a panelized system may be more economical for the same effect. Yep, Pex is the way I was leaning, and then piping heating and cooling in and out. Cooling would run through a transfer coil and fan system. Makes sense on the airlocks. Make up air is standard here when we get that tight, or you can die :beer: Not too hard a choice. Yeah, saw that too. Thought RichG nailed it there. Propane is easy to get around here, and I can move a couple of my big tanks over for storage, and will use it as primary backup system. Agreed on the mass thingy. Old style log homes, with real full cut logs banked on the mass technology. Still makes sense. Everyones idea of introducing concretes, and other high mass items fits right in. Seems like on the storage tech, a guy is partitioning storage. One for dry goods, and another for more humidity. That was interesting. Easy to add foundation before you start. Need to determine if going up 2 instead of sprawling out on 1 level. Didn't really want to go with the typical 2, but will have to balance the cost of going up vs out. Keehah, never heard of it. I'll review the site. Looks like one needs to get his book, is that it? TIA guys, all ideas are welcomed. Not building a mansion, doesn't fit me. Want something laid down rustic and efficient for the future. The anti todays building methods or anti suburb house. Tn, with a 900' drive, will be incorporating some of your ideas from the meet. Haven't decided on fence and gate entry yet. Seriously considering hand held opener gate control, like your garage door opener.

Kahlil Gibran | 01-22-2007 09:52 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio (Post 483181) Need to determine if going up 2 instead of sprawling out on 1 level. Didn't really want to go with the typical 2, but will have to balance the cost of going up vs out.
Agonized over that too. Not up or wide but go down. Gotta go down below the frostline anyway for the foundation so...add a couple feet for a "daylight basement" wherein the first floor's bedroom-level windows are 6" about grade. Basically free space. Stack the bathroom/kitchen for one single plumbwall. Free bermed insulation too. Attachment 23103 :smile:

fasTTcar | 01-22-2007 09:54 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Scorp, give me a PM when you are ready for a gate opener. I can see if I can swing you a beta test one gratis.

Mone | 01-22-2007 09:59 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: If anyone is worried about tornadoes, security, nuclear blasts, fallout- consider the monolithic concrete dome. We have three of these near us... wow. You're behind about 8 inches of reinforced concrete (what I could see near the bottom in a doorway). Nobody is going to drive through your walls in nothing less than a sherman tank. Heck, you could backfill to hide it. Fallout- I'm not sure how thick you need it, but you'll fare the best out of all your neighbors... you have to properly cover openings... but compared to the non-existent protection of a wood framed house- sweeet. http://www.monolithic.com/ Follow some of the links- they're neat.

Tn...Andy | 01-22-2007 10:03 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: OSCO brand is the best residential opener I've found ( Operator Specialty Company ). At the time I bought mine, they were all eletro-mechanical switches.....not a circuit board in them, which was a weak point in the previous brand I had.....lightening running in and 75 bucks a pop for a new board 2-3 times a year. But a buddy of mine here just put a set in and he said with the new weenie govt requirements about safety issues, they finally had to go to an electronic version. shame.....but still a great opener. They don't sell direct to the public....I bought mine online thru a fence/gate dealer in Ohio. http://www.operatorspecialty.com/ While you have the ditch open to run an electric line to the gate area, be sure to drop in a video/audio cable too. Nice to actually SEE who is at the gate, and decide whether you want to put your pants on......ahahahahaaa The control for them can be matched to your garage door openers so the same button for it will do the gates. I use Genie for door openers. ( get the commercial version with the solid screw track from a place that sells doors/etc, not the 3 section piece of crap from the BigBox stores that fits so nice in your trunk ) Also put in the Dakota Alert system Rich showed at the meet.....well worth the money.

Horn | 01-22-2007 10:04 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: 1 Attachment(s) http://www.pca.state.mn.us/oea/green...xamples-mn.cfm Here is something for you Northwoods characters. Do the green thing Scorp. I could entertain the idea of purchasing some off the grid land and building a self sustaining G.I.M. fortress with you fellas. Seems like we would be able to make it work. We could let jerry stay there for free, he could live off the bark on the trees outback.:D Here, I found the perfect concept plan, what do you say Andy?

Tn...Andy | 01-22-2007 10:06 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: I've always been partial to a story and a 1/2 design......couple bedrms and bath ( or whatever you need ) on the upper level, rest including the master bdrm on the main floor. When the kids get gone, you simply shut the doors to the upper level and ignore it. All fits compactly under less roof than spreading out. Up is ALWAYS cheaper than out, both initially and in terms of energy down the road.

Scorpio | 01-22-2007 10:40 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Flat lot, trees yes, mountains no. The exposed basement walls idea is out unless rebuilding the lot. Not a fan of two stories, but it is cheaper to go up. Prefer steep slope roofs, so the 1 1/2 could work if designed properly, nesting rooms up into the roof system. Do some rooms up with dormers possibly. Then you can get away from the two story look. There are a lot of horse shit story 1/2's around here, just pure junk as the farmers bought a kit from sears and put it together. They should have stuck to growing corn. Why do I know, currently have one. Was looking at these: http://www.r-control.com/sips.asp comments welcome on that style. I know it is getting pretty sad when I am thinking like Tn and RichG........:bandito: Yep to the digi line, and comm line to the entry all in conduit so it can be replaced or added to as necessary providing the friggin' moles don't get it. Was wondering if I can find one of the gas line subs, and see if they could trench and run a single no jointed line back. No idea what the difference in cost would be. Suppose I probably have to give sparky a junction box half way at least though. Opening through the woods would face west, so I can't get at the south winter exposure for passive solar. Too many trees that direction. Tall pines. Neighboring property might be a little peeved if I did some minor clear cutting on their property.:boxing: I was thinking along the lines of a coal/coke fired heater fed with auger on auto pilot, but after what Saum said about storage, unsure about that. Need further data. Nice thing about that is you could have split feeds and heat a shop off of it also using the same underslab underground radiant system, just in a different direction. Kahlil, correct in that, as trying to figure how to incorporate lower level for usage.

Scorpio | 01-22-2007 10:43 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Horn, from their brain to yours, no idea where you found that pic, but I didn't notice the trap doors when I was out there a few years back. The crazyhorse monument was pretty special.

Scorpio | 01-22-2007 10:57 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: bender, gonna need a assist.

Horn | 01-22-2007 11:06 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: 1 Attachment(s) There is something about the Black Mountains that are beckoning me.

Tn...Andy | 01-22-2007 11:18 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: "I know it is getting pretty sad when I am thinking like Tn and RichG........" Rich and I would probably say you have simply seen the light, brother. An ounce of preparation is now worth a whole truck load of cure due to inflation. :D

Tn...Andy | 01-22-2007 11:22 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Horn, Nah, I have enough trouble dealing with 5 buck FRN notes.....no way I could live that close to the reminder of WHY the South is not free. :D

Horn | 01-22-2007 11:30 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Tn...Andy (Post 483309) Horn, Nah, I have enough trouble dealing with 5 buck FRN notes.....no way I could live that close to the reminder of WHY the South is not free. :D
O.K. strike that move. I'll draw up the plans and post them in a thread for review. We'll discuss the financing/location at the next G.I.M. meet.:wink: I'm thinking "The Alamo" as a model?

Halophyte | 01-23-2007 12:06 AM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Hey Scorp, try going with hydronic baseboard heat, it's the cheapest operating cost. Only a pump to run or maybe several mini pumps (100 watt ea) or zone valves, you can parallel an LP boiler with a wood boiler for backup. Lennox pulse boilers are the best of the residential bunch. When I lived in Anchorage it was the best system. Andy's right about the a/c mini splits too, they also come in heat pump varity but the air to air heat pumps suck in wet northern climates.

Scorpio | 01-23-2007 12:13 AM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Good thought Halo, have a car wash with black tubing underslab (20 yr old), stuff rotting out and have to tear up the slabs to replace it all. Pex is supposed to last. Supposed to. Usually how the warranty goes, here is more pex to replace your failed, then you are on your own tearing up floors, etc. or developing a new system.

Halophyte | 01-23-2007 12:20 AM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio (Post 483350) Good thought Halo, have a car wash with black tubing underslab (20 yr old), stuff rotting out and have to tear up the slabs to replace it all. Pex is supposed to last. Supposed to. Usually how the warranty goes, here is more pex to replace your failed, then you are on your own tearing up floors, etc. or developing a new system.
Yup, the local school district (a rich one next to my local nuke plant) decided to install closed loop deep well heat pumps, same problem. .

Jack London | 01-23-2007 12:36 AM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Check out living underground. Constant temperatures means little heat and no air conditioning. Many other benefits. http://www.monolithic.com/plan_desig...ade/index.html :cool1:

fritzkrieg | 01-23-2007 01:06 AM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Scorpio, You should get as much thermal mass into your house as possible. You'll be more comfortable summer and winter. Probably most important in a cold climate. Must have plenty of foam insulation on the exterior and provide for thermal breaks wherever possible. Myself, I would prefer something like the concrete dome as suggested by Mone, and similar to NOOB. Concrete's the way to go. Can't think of anything much better, as long as it is insulated well. I am hoping someday to build an underground concrete dome

beercritic | 01-23-2007 05:40 AM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Do consider the monolithic dome. Best decision I ever made. Course, should you run afoul of the authorities, it's a sure bet your house will be called the "compound." :-)

Tn...Andy | 01-23-2007 06:27 AM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Quote:
Originally Posted by Halophyte (Post 483343) Hey Scorp, try going with hydronic baseboard heat, it's the cheapest operating cost. Only a pump to run or maybe several mini pumps (100 watt ea) or zone valves, you can parallel an LP boiler with a wood boiler for backup. Lennox pulse boilers are the best of the residential bunch. When I lived in Anchorage it was the best system. Andy's right about the a/c mini splits too, they also come in heat pump varity but the air to air heat pumps suck in wet northern climates.
I went with the hydronic basebd in my current house....I use the fireplace grate as a 'boiler' and have a 500 gallon tank in the basement section for storage of hot water from the fireplace loop. Two small circulator pumps on it. Where I ran lines thru the slab part of the house floor, I used copper, and put the copper encased in that black foam insulation you see refrigeration lines wrapped in. You can STILL feel exactly where a return line is running down the kitchen floor when you step on it barefoot from the heat ! I was hoping the insulation would protect the copper from the concrete, figuring the expansion/contraction or chemical reaction with the concrete would eventually cause a leak. Problem with hydronic is you have to have a fairly high water temp, it really doesn't get cranking until you hit 150-160 degree water temps, and you need a lot of baseboard footage based on your building heat loss....plus you don't get that "mass" warmed. In slab heating uses a fairly low water temp.....like 100-110 range. The new PEX is 'supposed' to be great stuff.....been on the market now going on 30 years and I haven't heard of problems.....but like you say about the warranty....."here ya go buddy......here's ya another pile of the crap.....you figure out how to get it in your slab"...typical building materials warranty..ahahahahaaaaa I think I'd try it if I ever build another home, though.

Scorpio | 01-23-2007 06:36 AM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Personal preference, I do appreciate earth bermed homes, but I couldn't do the underground thing. I do not have the hill to work with to create a earth berm house. Pex tubing info for others also: http://www.ppfahome.org/pex/faqpex.html http://www.pexsupply.com/ http://www.watts.com/pro/divisions/p...t_warranty.asp

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Scorpio | 01-23-2007 07:30 AM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Stupid question: Can mass be developed in other methods than in concrete (theoretically I would say no, but)? Can mass be sufficient with those insulated panelized systems, ie using tech for mass? Substitution of concrete may become an issue due to overall project costs. The basement system would probably end up using the foam block and concrete fill system from Horns links. Always wanted to try that to get max benefit out of the lower level. Typical around here is poured or block walls with a 1 1/2 foam exterior, or 2x4 wall with R11 on the interior. Neither are real good systems. Was thinking the upper walls could be either a dual wall system, or a panelized system. Benefit of dual walls is that the outer wall can be completely sealed with no penetrations, with electrical and plumbing located in second int wall. With the 1" air gap, always wondered if that created a convective rotating air current that actually could contribute to heat loss as air is moving. Panelized solves that, but is a pain to do electrical and plumbing systems in. Typical around here is just 2x6 with FG insul and maybe some housewrap of some type. Might be an idea to put exterior steps to garage from basement for a second exit, then put in window wells and addnl bdrms down there. Then you are building down instead of up. Problem there is resale. A new rambler around here built on that format sat on the market for 2 yrs before moving.

TheSimpleton | 01-23-2007 07:51 AM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Good stuff. Conventional is good. How about a New England salt box with larger south windows? They also had the internal chimneys, and I agree about concrete radiant floors. If not, try the story and 1/2, also a historic design. Those designs were also far more space efficent than the dross I see in today's architecture. I have seen good luck with normal blown cellulose; the reason is that fiberglass gaps unpredictably, so only works under lab conditions with no wind. Cellulose stops gaps cold, is cheap and conventional. After 30 years I've seen a 4" sag, if it was ever filled in the first place. Use conduit to pull. Also more than familiar with water problems using tyvek. Buying trouble. What was wrong with tarpaper? It worked fine. ...I'm not sure what the insulative value of gravel is. Or the shrapnel value. But I'd advise using plaster. Not only is it far tougher, and not much more expensive due to the easy backing boards available today, but drywall MUST have climate control or it will dissolve. No heat in your house for a couple months? Sorry about your luck, enjoy your new drywall/wallpaper job. In troubled times, one may have to leave the house, or let it go barn-like for unexpected periods. This is more for modest climates, but there is high-insulative prefab concrete block. Set up and parge. NC and south? Less ballistic value though, I imagine. I also agree concrete exteriors are advisable. The old Craftsman style tudor-stucco was classic and conventional. Here's hurricane housing using limestone-like concrete blocks and features. Ideal for all purposes, but short on insulation-potential, good for FL and the Gulf. http://www.scrapbookscrapbook.com/DA...e-katrina.html All you rebs should look at this carefully as it could save your buscuits and look dyn-o-mite at the same time. Check out the iron storm shutters. External mechanics room is a good idea, however, the external boilers require donning your carhartts at 5am. Good in general, but it's nicer to throw wood in the fire in the basement or the kitchen with your slippers on. If houses are as large as many today, you can easily buffer 2 cord in the basement for this purpose. This also warms and dries the wood as well as humidifying the house. If wood is better upstairs, build-in a wood box that fills from both sides. A chest freezer works best, but of course it'd have to be pretty. I'd heat with a russian stove, internal chimney, with a conventional stove/chimney on the side. http://www.virginiaradiant.com/products.html (most expensive available--good pics) No parts to get, no boilers to break, same heating ability, and you're in the ideal climate for one. It costs the same as a regular boiler. I suppose you can throw one of MMs diesel room-heaters in a room to keep it from freezing while you're away. http://ebiz.sstoil.com/iwwida.pvx?;p..._tree?comp=001 (remember to plumb so the pipes can be drained easily) Root cellar is critical because it has critical requirements, you need two, or even three (wet roots/sand, apples, and dry goods) and because you won't eat from it unless it's easy to access from the kitchen, and hopefully the outdoors (se Thoreau). Many do well with the external cellar stairs, but when you can make it right, that can be your overflow. I've often thought about hydronics and the problem with repairing pipe. Here's one solution: back when, streets were paved with brick and lime. Lime mortar isn't hard, but wears for about 50 years before repointing. Why not use this inside? Lay sand (even with clay--I've seen lime/clay rammed earth tiles), tamp hard, lay your hydronic hose, level off and tamp again, then lay your brick or tile with lime mortar pointing. It's a trifle rustic, but durable, repairable, upgradable, and excellent thermal mass. If you don't like it, it can always be removed, unlike a slab which usually fixes the doorsill heights and buggers all subsequent remodelling ideas. High roof insulation, but if not story and 1/2, then insulate the ceiling and not the roof. Also good climate for terne/steel roof. They're cheaper than asphalt because of installation ease and last far longer. Canucks insulate the earth AROUND the house because the frost line can reach many feet into the earth. Just 2" foamboard sloped out from the sill but it helps the basement concrete temps stay moderate. Right, that's all the free info for one day. I need to read that Scorpio's Chow-Chow. Don't forget a Bat-pole and Bat-cave. TS "I sometimes dream of a larger and more populous house, standing in a golden age, of enduring materials, and without gingerbread work, which shall still consist of only one room, a vast, rude, substantial, primitive hall, without ceiling or plastering, with bare rafters and purlins supporting a sort of lower heaven over one's head-useful to keep off rain and snow, where the king and queen posts stand out toreceive your homage, when you have done reverence to the prostrate Saturn of an older dynasty on stepping over the sill; a cavernous house, wherein you must reach up a torch upon a pole to see theroof; where some may live in the fireplace, some in the recess of awindow, and some on settles, some at one end of the hall, some at another, and some aloft on rafters with the spiders, if they choose; ahouse which you have got into when you have opened the outside door,and the ceremony is over; where the weary traveller may wash, and eat,and converse, and sleep, without further journey; such a shelter as you would be glad to reach in a tempestuous night, containing allthe essentials of a house, and nothing for house-keeping; where you can see all the treasures of the house at one view, and everything hangs upon its peg, that a man should use; at once kitchen, pantry, parlor, chamber, storehouse, and garret; where you can see sonecessary a thin, as a barrel or a ladder, so convenient a thing asa cupboard, and hear the pot boil, and pay your respects to the fire that cooks your dinner, and the oven that bakes your bread, and the necessary furniture and utensils are the chief ornaments; where the washing is not put out, nor the fire, nor the mistress, and perhaps you are sometimes requested to move from off the trapdoor, when the cook would descend into the cellar, and so learn whether the ground is solid or hollow beneath you without stamping. A house whose insideis as open and manifest as a bird's nest, and you cannot go in at the front door and out at the back without seeing some of its inhabitants..." --Thoreau, Walden

Tn...Andy | 01-23-2007 08:12 AM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: fhouses are as large as many today, you can easily buffer 2 cord in the basement for this purpose. This also warms and dries the wood as well as humidifying the house. If wood is better upstairs, build-in a wood box that fills from both sides. I get 5-6 cords in a half basement. And you are correct about the drying factor. My wood use is upstairs, but my 'woodbox' is a dumbwaiter/elevator I built in a shaft beside the fireplace. Use a 120v winch to raise and lower the wood box. If your gonna BURN wood, you have to figure the least labor intensive and messy way to get it done. The outdoor furnace Scorpio is looking at doesn't have to be fired at 5am.....or even every day if you get a large enough unit. When it comes to mass, by the way, water is WAY more dense and efficient a storage medium than stone/concrete/etc. IF I were to redo my house, I'd think I'd try to get more water storage than the 500 gallon tank I have in the basement now......like 1000 or 2000 gallons, and sink them in the ground under the basement floor to be out of the way.

steel_g | 01-23-2007 08:29 AM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Hibernation.....Bear Cave...........Whaaaaaaaaaaat

Scorpio | 01-23-2007 08:34 AM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Tn, FYI, I was thinking of a corridor tie in under garage from house to fuel burning. Then all lines, etc would be permanently accessible. Garage slab would double as the roof for part of it. It would double for other uses as well.

BeefJerky | 01-23-2007 10:29 AM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: TF System - The Vertical ICF - Insulated Concrete Forms > Home The system for 6" walls works out to 2.80 a sq. ft. minus concrete. Military using the 24" commercial systems to build temporay bunkers filling them with sand. Impressive R-ratings for residential purposes. I am considering this method for my next home. About the only type of siding material that can't be used on the outside is cedar shake.

Horn | 01-23-2007 07:46 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio (Post 483511) Might be an idea to put exterior steps to garage from basement for a second exit, then put in window wells and addnl bdrms down there. Then you are building down instead of up. Problem there is resale. A new rambler around here built on that format sat on the market for 2 yrs before moving.
Would try to steer clear of window wells. moisture/security problem. If its laid out right you could make most of it a walk out basement. You gotta get some earth over there Scorp. Find someone whos diggin up a golf course or something. Even if you sink it 4ft. then backfill 4ft.

Okieshowedem | 01-23-2007 09:49 PM
There is only one protected place written about. edit advertising and spam

keehah | 01-23-2007 10:25 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: Quote:
Originally Posted by Okieshowedem http://goldismoney.info/forums/image...s/viewpost.gif This great secert can be seen with those who have eyes to see. http://www.yahweh.com Okieshowedem
Is this mind control meme refinements Darpa creates for its Jesuit branch of the NWO? I'm going to write a letter to Darpa's Brain. Darpa B deserves to play with more subtle harmonics. I am most imprested with the Hijacking of thread title in the reply. A power I do not have. http://goldismoney.info/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: There is only one protected place written about.

perl | 01-24-2007 12:07 AM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: ICF's are the way to go. Very quiet. Energy efficient, not much more expensive than wood frame (2-5% depending on system and cost of concrete. Very do it yourself friendly. Earthquake resistant as it is monolithic. Moves with the ground. Tornado resistant. Tie the trusses in with Simpson strong ties and doubt your roof would come off in anything but maybe a strong F5. A nice DIY site http://ownerbuilderbook.com/ Good ICF sites. http://www.icfhomes.com/ http://www.tfsystem.com/ http://www.buildblock.com/welcome/homebuyers.asp If you decide not to go concrete floor consider these trusses. Nice! http://www.ufpi.com/product/oj/prod/faq.htm

SilverSatan | 01-24-2007 06:15 PM
Re: Housing/Shelter talk: free software for geodesic dome design. http://www.cadreanalytic.com/cadregeo.htm fully functional program, but you can only run it 50 times Thermal mass dosent have to be in the walls. you could have a lot of large aquariums. would give you an emergency water and fish supply also. have your considered cordwood masonry? http://www.cordwoodmasonry.com/Cordwood.html

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