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Alric | 05-16-2006 08:35 PM
Non-lethal weapons Most people just go for the guns, because to be honest they work. And if your like me you would be justified in using a gun since you avoid all fights that isn't just defending yourself. And yea you can kill someone with any weapon. With that said, what if you don't want to kill someone? Or maybe you want to try and avoid the legal problems, seeing as how just because something is "legal" doesn't mean you wont get in trouble for it, and may even be put in jail for it. I was just wondering if anyone has any of them or find them useful at all. Or if everyone just sticks to guns.

Halophyte | 05-16-2006 08:51 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons 1 Attachment(s) About the size of a pager, I think. It will rattle 'em.

hoarder | 05-16-2006 08:54 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons You could eat lots of garlic and immobilize them with your bad breath!

Tn...Andy | 05-16-2006 08:59 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons Guns don't necessarily have to function as designed to deter crooks. I can name you several personal instances when the mere appearence of one on my part stopped what probably would have been a bad situation. I suspect that is often the case with armed citizens....you hear or read about the ones that go the full measure, but for each of those, I'm guessing there are 1/2 dozen more incidents you never hear of where trouble was averted by the fact the intended victim was armed. Personally, if I meant to do you harm, I'd be WAY less likely to go down that road if I see your hand go up to the grip of a Glock in your side holster rather than you whipping out one of those dinky cans of spray something.

thorgrim | 05-16-2006 09:18 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons If you are in good health your hands. I recommend MMA. (mixed Martial Arts)

Silver Scout | 05-16-2006 09:21 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons my fists are registered lethal weapons. so i have to go around poking ppl in the eyes instead

thorgrim | 05-16-2006 09:35 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons Oh I almost forgot. Your mind, which is your most powerful weapon. Being able to think quick, anticipate and plan. What good is a gun if you get killed while it is still in its holster or die in your sleep.

Alric | 05-16-2006 10:11 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons Well in most cases people tend to go for the most vulnerable person. Having any weapon is going to stop a lot of people.

REV127 | 05-17-2006 12:38 AM
Re: Non-lethal weapons Stun guns do not work as advertised. Yes, I've tried it out. Tasers are a little better, also don't work as advertised. As far as non-lethal/less lethal weapons go I count four as being worthy of note. 1) Fox Labs pepper spray, medium fog 2) A high-lumens flashlight like the Surefire line 3) Asp batons 4) Rubber pellets and slugs for your 12 gauge shotgun All of these work as advertised and three out of the four are ranged weapons. No set of brass knuckles, nightsticks, blackjacks or anything else are going to do you a bit of good unless you can land those hits on your attacker in hand to hand combat. That means that you have to be able to punch out your attacker. Think long and hard about that before you give your wife one of those kitty or puppy shaped keychain defenders. I can punch people out, I have trained in martial arts and come from a streetfighting background, and I still don't want to have to resort to that, especially since I know better. What does work and is highly effective is a blinding ranged attack from a light or pepper spray or object thrown at your attacker's face followed by some club or knifework. This was how I operated when I was on the streets, pepper spray and a knife. The 12 guage with the rubber projectiles will put them on their butt fast. You can also make the last shot or several be the real deal, just in case.

AlloyDragon | 05-17-2006 01:26 AM
Re: Non-lethal weapons Full auto paintball gun with pepper balls (or mace balls if anyone makes those, don't know). Crank up the velocity. Those paintballs sting like hell (they break bare skin even at standard field velocities), and then you get the added irritant of the payload. Full auto in the face will stop anyone (and likely permanently blind the target if they get hit in the eye), and the balls move slow enough that you can still see them which allows you to stream that at your target nicely much like tracer fire (in the decent light anyway). Much better range then anything other then a shotgun firing some less lethal round.

SilverSatan | 05-17-2006 04:15 AM
Re: Non-lethal weapons how bout a shotgun loaded with rocksalt? MMA like BJJ etc. is good in a cage but not good in a real situation where somebody could have a knife. are you going to break a guy's foot while they slice you up?

RiverRat | 05-17-2006 05:28 AM
Re: Non-lethal weapons :Sorry: IMHO: I think people are underestimating the midset of the average street punk. These guys and gals had rather shoot someone than take a chance of getting their butt kicked in a physical confrontation. You will be the one at a possible fatal disadvantage if you continue to pursue non fatal weapons as a humane gesture for protection. I admire the logic of not wanting to kill a fellow citizen,but the media has taught them it's alright to shoot and kill anyone who disses them. :eek: Wake up bro.........this ain't Kansas anymore.These types will be the first ones you will have to deal with in a SHTF scenario. Might try changing your name to MAD DOG JONES and put it on your mailbox. Hey.....now that's a passive trick to throw fear into their hearts. If they can read....... Best to all, :thrasher:RiverRat

thorgrim | 05-17-2006 08:27 AM
Re: Non-lethal weapons You choice of weapon will depend largely on the scenario obviously if they enemy is 50 feet away your hands won't help much unless you throw something. Also there are many situations you could get into that you might not be armed anyway. I like the rock salt idea because it's cheap and simple. The paint ball gun would work too those things hurt even at regulation speed.

Au_Ag | 05-17-2006 08:42 AM
Re: Non-lethal weapons Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric Most people just go for the guns, because to be honest they work. .
that is the heart of the matter. Why use something that you _may_ be able to use on one person. So if you are attacked by multiple persons which of these alternatives are suitable? so what if they have a gun? you're gonna use these other alternatives to gain control of the situation? Looking down the bore of a shotgun will usually stop multiple persons from further action, and has been known to create a "mexican stand-off" between armed parties. Get a twelve gauge and don't look back. Useful for hunting also. my two milligrams worth

Alric | 05-17-2006 01:41 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons Well I do think a gun will work in most cases. I just wanted to see what others thought. Its never bad to keep your options open.

Roland30 | 05-17-2006 03:00 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons Save the paint ball toys for the kids. I understand what your trying to ask and there are no easy answers. A real and true thug will kill you very quickly without much thought if you piss them off with pepper balls from some paint ball gun or some zapper. There are some good sprays but they should be a backup to a REAL weapon. If your not able to or unwilling to deal with real weapons then keep the F--K out of the way of people who arent playing games. This is a serious subject and if your honestly looking for the real-deal then put aside everything Hollywood, TV and MacGyver has ever shown you into the "bullshit" file in your brain. Then seek real training and real weapons. You do not have to become some super-commando or even get a black-belt to be capible of defending yourself....you just need to be serious and "real" about it and work! On a related note: 95% of everything you have seen in TV shows or movies about fighting or firearms is out and out B.S. and lies. What makes anybody think that the very same media that they constantly acknowledge as being "corrupt" would put out real information on how to defend oneself?...and yet I hear TV-hollywood based self defence crap on a regular basis....sad...

Alric | 05-17-2006 03:07 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons Everything on TV is fake. Some people on this site would even argue the news is fake heh.

MoonChakka | 05-17-2006 03:18 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons My main self defense weapon is a 12 ga. shotgun. (well, a couple of them) My training is going to the range and shooting about once a week. The only concession I was/am considering making to less than lethal defense is buying some rubber load shot gun shells. My semi-automatic holds three shells at a time. I would have the first one be the rubber less than lethal shell, followed by two of the real deal. To be honest the main reason I would do this is to show that I didn't really want to kill an intruder, I tried to use non lethal force but it wasn't enough.

thorgrim | 05-17-2006 03:59 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons I saw a "punch gun" once at my gun store. It shoots a rubber ball about the size of a gulf ball. The shells looked like 40mm grenade launcher shells not sure if they are interchangeable though. Would probably drop someone with one short or kill them if shot in the head. Tazers work ok i've had one tested on me. Now as for guns and real weapons I never said they aren't good. I have guns and would use them if necessary. I also like knives if you are up close almost as good as a gun. But you need to be prepared for all situations and this thread is about ideas that are non-lethal. If you kill someone when there were other options you just might end up in jail or camps if tshtf and then what good is being a crack shot. You better be able to defend yourself naked if necessary. Yes real life isn't the movies and your not going to stand a chance fighting hand to hand against people with lethal weapons. But proper training does work. And i'm not talking garbage disciplines like karate. My brother is 5'7" and 130 pounds, I have seen him beat the crap out of people twice his size (quickly too). Now i'm not a hot head like my brother and would just as soon walk away from a situation if I can which is why I haven't had to use my training in RL yet. The point is though that proper training works.

thorgrim | 05-17-2006 04:05 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonChakka The only concession I was/am considering making to less than lethal defense is buying some rubber load shot gun shells. My semi-automatic holds three shells at a time. I would have the first one be the rubber less than lethal shell, followed by two of the real deal. To be honest the main reason I would do this is to show that I didn't really want to kill an intruder, I tried to use non lethal force but it wasn't enough.
Good idea.

AlloyDragon | 05-17-2006 09:07 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland30 Save the paint ball toys for the kids.
That's actually what I plan to do with it, pepper any little shits on my property who do not immediatley vacate when ordered to do so. Course there will be a 1911MA1 on my hip and an SA MA1 (semi-auto .308) with a 20 round clip slung on my back and spare mags for both.

Halophyte | 05-17-2006 11:35 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons If Treadwell had a big can of pepper spray he and his girlfriend would probably still be alive. Mess up a bears nose and he's harmless. I pack a 8 oz can for critter control while backpacking. .

Roland30 | 05-18-2006 08:49 AM
Re: Non-lethal weapons AlloyDragon my thoughts exactly! Yes a paintball marker loaded with the right load will keep mostly harmless critters away. I think I misunderstood part of what Alric was getting at. (my bad)

P-99er | 05-19-2006 10:50 AM
Re: Non-lethal weapons I carry Fox OC, 2 knives, and a baton in addition to a sidearm.

REV127 | 05-19-2006 11:53 AM
Re: Non-lethal weapons P-99, with a face like yours I think a wooden club with rusty nails as spikes would be more effective! I wouldn't mess with you. Then again, I'm just a green dot. :frown:

Shorty_Harris | 05-19-2006 12:11 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons Non lethal??? i fail to see the point.:haha:

P-99er | 05-19-2006 12:46 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 P-99, with a face like yours I think a wooden club with rusty nails as spikes would be more effective! I wouldn't mess with you. Then again, I'm just a green dot. :frown:
My part time job is trunk monkey.

wallew | 05-19-2006 11:11 PM
Re: Non-lethal weapons First off, MOST confrontations with firearms occur when the people are seven feet apart or less. Most confrontations with firearms average three shots. This from several different sources. Second, the WHERE this confrontation occurs is ALL important. If you are living in an apartment with people on both sides, above and below you, you REALLY need to be aware of where the round will go AFTER it passes through whatever perp was your target. That nine mill or .308 WILL go through several layers of sheetrock and wood and you WILL be held liable. If you live out in the country, obviously the situation changes. If living in an urban setting (see above) consider at the very least a medium sized ABC fire extinguisher. I have YET to meet anyone who can take a full load from an ABC extinguisher in the face. You can't see, you can't breathe. And while the bad guy is stumbling around trying to fumble their way OUT of your abode, you can use the METAL EXTINGUISHER as a club and beat them unconcious. And when asked, explain you have a 'fear of fires' and that's why you keep in your abode. You just grabbed it and 'got lucky' as it were. And regarding martial arts and other forms of defense such as the tazer. You gotta ALLOW the perp to be able to physically TOUCH YOU for your protection begin. I DO hold a brown belt in judo and have NOTHING but joy bouncing a BG around. BUT you are asking for trouble by allowing ANY perp within arms length of your person. THAT'S when all the problems start. Your whole idea should be to first avoid ALL confrontations. Barring that at least keeping as far away from the BG is second. Regarding tazers. I know this is NOT a true story (at least I hope not), BUT you get the idea. --- Testing a tazer Last weekend I spied something at Larry's Pistol and Pawn that tickled my fancy. (Note: keep in mind that my "fancy" is easily tickled). I bought something really cool for Nell. The occasion is our 5th wedding anniversary and I was looking for a little something extra for my sweet girl. What I came across was a 100,000-volt, pocket/purse-sized Tazer gun with a clip. For those of you who are not familiar with this product, it is a less-than-lethal stun gun with two metal prongs designed to incapacitate an assailant with a shock of high-voltage, low amperage electricity while you flee to safety. The effects are supposed to be short lived, with no long-term adverse affect on your assailant, but allowing you adequate time to retreat to safety. You simply jab the prongs into your 250 lb. Tattooed assailant, push the button, and it will render him a slobbering, goggle-eyed, muscle-twitching, whimpering, pencil-neck geek. If you've never seen one of these things in action, then you're truly missing out--way too cool! Long story short, I bought the device and brought it home. I loaded two triple-a batteries in the darn thing and pushed the button. Nothing! I was so disappointed. Upon reading the directions (we don't need no stinkin' directions), I found much to my chagrin that this particular model would not create an arch between the prongs. How disappointing! I do love fire for effect. I learned that if I pushed the button, however, and pressed it against a metal surface that I'd get the blue arch of electricity darting back and forth between the prongs that I was so looking forward to. I did so. Awesome!!! Sparks, a blue arch of electricity, and a loud pop!!! Yipeeeeee. I'm easily amused, just for your information, but I have yet to explain to Nell what that burn spot is on the face of her microwave. Okay, so I was home alone with this new toy, thinking to myself that it couldn't be all that bad with only two triple-a batteries, etc., etc. There I sat in my recliner, my dog Woodley looking on intently (trusting little soul), reading the directions (that would be me, not Woodley) and thinking that I really needed to try this thing out on a flesh and blood target. I must admit I thought about zapping Woodley for a fraction of a second and thought better of it. He is such a sweet dog, after all. But, if I was going to give this thing to Nell to protect herself against a mugger, I did want some assurance that it would work as advertised. Am I wrong? Was I wrong to think that? Seemed reasonable to me at the time... So, there I sat in a pair of shorts and a tank top with my reading glasses perched delicately on the bridge of my nose, directions in one hand, Tazer in another. The directions said that a one-second burst would shock and disorient your assailant; a two-second burst was supposed to cause muscle spasms and a loss of bodily control; a three-second burst would purportedly make your assailant flop on the ground like a fish out of water. All the while I'm looking at this little device (measuring about 5" long, less than 3/4 inch in circumference, pretty cute really, and loaded with two itsy, bitsy triple-a batteries) thinking to myself, "no friggin' way!" Friggin' way--trust me, but I'm getting ahead of myself. What happened next is almost beyond description, but I'll do my best. Those of you who know me well have got a pretty good idea of what followed. I'm sitting there alone, Woodley looking on with his head cocked to one side as to say, "don't do it buddy," reasoning that a one-second burst from such a tiny lil' ole thing couldn't hurt all that bad (sound, rational thinking under the circumstances, wouldn't you agree?). I decided to give myself a one-second burst just for the hell of it. (Note: You know, a bad decision is like hindsight--always twenty-twenty. It is so obvious that it was a bad decision after the fact, even though it seemed so right at the time. Don't ya hate that?) I touched the prongs to my naked thigh, pushed the button, and HOLY **************! Daaaammmmnnnn!!! I'm pretty sure that Jessie Ventura ran in through the front door, picked me up out of that recliner, then body slammed me on the carpet over and over again. I vaguely recall waking up on my side in the fetal position, nipples on fire, testicles nowhere to be found, soaking wet, with my left arm tucked under my body in the oddest position. The dog was standing over me barking like I had never heard before, licking my face, undoubtedly thinking to himself, "do it again, do it again!" (Note: If you ever feel compelled to mug yourself with a Tazer, one note of caution. There is no such thing as a one-second burst when you zap yourself. You're not going to let go of that thing until it is dislodged from your hand by a violent thrashing about on the floor. Then, if you're lucky, you won't dislodge one of the prongs 1/4" deep in your thigh like yours truly.) SON-OF-A-***** that hurt! A minute or so later (I can't be sure, as time was a relative thing at this point), I collected my wits (what little I had left), sat up and surveyed the landscape. My reading glasses were on the mantel of the fireplace. How did they get there??? My triceps, right thigh and both titties were still twitching. My face felt like it had been shot up with Novocain, as my bottom lip weighed 88 lbs. give or take an ounce or two, I'm pretty sure. By the way, has anyone seen my testicles? I think they ran away. I'm offering a reward. They're round, rather large, kinda hairy, and handsome if I must say so myself. Miss 'em� sure would like to get 'em back.

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