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- - Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=158336)

REV127 | 07-22-2007 10:30 PM
Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To There are lots of things you can burn for fuel but liquid fuels are particularly nice because it's comparatively easy to set up fuel tanks that allow a steady draw over a long period of time with relatively little input or operating on your part. I've been looking hard at straight vegetable oil(SVO) for a while now and I'm growing sunflower(Peredovik is a good oil sunflower) and peanuts as my main oil crop. Just today I realized I had another massive potential source of oil, in fact a great many of us who own some land likely do... acorns. I've been planning on using this year's acorn harvest as bird feed and I'll probably eat a little myself. Just out of curiosity I did some searching and apparently oil content in acorns ranges from 5% to as much as 30% by weight. Unfortunately I haven't been able to track down species-specific info yet but based on the huge load of acorns a big old white oak may produce in a year you're still talking about a lot of potential fuel for your diesel if you have the means to pressed it or crush, boil and skim off the oil. I've still got several months till I can expect my acorns but I have a large number of big live oaks on my property. Based on the information I've seen I expect them to produce about as well per acre as sunflower, around 100 gallons. I can raise some crops and livestock under the trees so it's a bit like finding a gold nugget in my back yard. When the acorns come I'll have some experimenting to do. Anyway, just thought I'd pass this on as a valuable natural resource to anybody with some oaks and a diesel or external combustion engine. From what I've read some oaks will bear a crop of acorns every year, for others it can take two years, depending on species.

Lackluster | 07-23-2007 07:22 AM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To I thought most oaks threw bitter acorns? In fact, I recall reading somewhere that people have tried to domesticate oaks to give sweet acorns, but have never been able to do so.

shades2 | 07-23-2007 07:50 AM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Quote:
Originally Posted by Lackluster (Post 671846) I thought most oaks threw bitter acorns? In fact, I recall reading somewhere that people have tried to domesticate oaks to give sweet acorns, but have never been able to do so.
I tried nibbling an acorn once, I instantly regretted it, was bitter as hell. I think you can cook the things, but I've never tried that. A much better choice would be a fig tree as a food source, and they tend to attract other creatures, which you could also hunt.

REV127 | 07-23-2007 10:08 AM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Quote:
Originally Posted by Lackluster (Post 671846) I thought most oaks threw bitter acorns? In fact, I recall reading somewhere that people have tried to domesticate oaks to give sweet acorns, but have never been able to do so.
Depends on the oak. The acorns from my live oaks are quite tasty straight from the shell with no leaching at all. They say white oaks are the best. It's related to how much tannin there is. Don't know about domestication but people have eaten acorns for centuries. Here's a look at acorns as food, http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=us That's old news, though. It's the potential of acorn oil as an abundant source of found oil for fuel that has caught my attention. I haven't been able to turn up too much info on the subject of yields so I'm going to run a few experiments this year. I'm going to try both the crush and boil and press methods, with green and ripe acorns. I might also try pressing for primary extraction then boiling the cake to see if I can get a worthwhile secondary extraction.

Silvestor | 07-23-2007 06:28 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To If a person geared these correctly, would they be able to compress air efficiently? I can imagine powering one of these with a donkey or a U.S. Senator. http://i15.tinypic.com/67qscw3.gif http://i16.tinypic.com/62xccyd.gif

mtnman | 07-23-2007 06:44 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvestor (Post 672417) If a person geared these correctly, would they be able to compress air efficiently? I can imagine powering one of these with a donkey or a U.S. Senator. http://i15.tinypic.com/67qscw3.gif http://i16.tinypic.com/62xccyd.gif
Yes you could run an air compressor with that but remember, you have to feed the animal that will be pulling.

Lackluster | 07-23-2007 06:46 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To How much do US senators eat?

demosfen | 07-23-2007 06:53 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To you'll do everyone a favor if you starve the bastard

RealJack | 07-23-2007 10:24 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To 1 Attachment(s) http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_...hane_pain.html Here's an idea that practically anyone can utilize with a little out of the box thinking. Methane from compost stored in inner tubes. Check it out. Quote:
Using a new, exciting and amazingly simple technique, this self-taught scientist may be helping to solve the world's energy crisis IT IS DUSK as I arrive at the Domaine des Ternpliers, a 241-hectare timber tract backed on to the Alpes dc Provence. Driving over a bumpy mud road that snakes across a barren moor near Villecrore (Var), I come upon a big white house, home of Jean Pain, a 51-year-old Frenchman. Until recently, Pain was an unknown. Today, he's hailed as "the king of.green gold," and energy experts from all over the globe have come to Domaine des Tenipliers to study the miracle Pain has wrought: an amazingly simple, and incredibly inexpensive system that extracts both energy and fertilizer (gold) from plant life (green). These scientists are hopeful that Pain's new process will go a long way in helping overcome the worldwide shortage of fuel. Says Andre Birre, author of Humus: Wealth and Health of the Earth, concerning the Pain method : "We are so hypnotized by the black gold we call oil, of which the supply is limited, that we fail to see that everyone can exploit that other gold-humus-not only without exhausting the supply, but constantly increasing it." I knock on the door and am greeted warmly by Jean Pain and his wife, Ida. Jean, I notice, has a wrestler's build and a hermit's calm. He accompanies me to about 50 metres from the front door and shows me the object of the world's attention -- a home-made power plant that supplies 100 per cent of the Pains' energy needs. What I see is a mound, three metres high and six across, made of tiny pieces of brushwood. This vegetable cocktail, Pain explains, made of tree limbs and pulverized underbrush, is a compost, much like the pile of decaying organic matter that people build in their gardens, using food scraps and leaves. Buried inside the 50-ton compost, he says, is a steel tank with a capacity of four cubic metres. It is three-fourths full of the same compost, which has first been steeped in water for two months. The tank is hermetically sealed, but is connected by tubing to 24-truck-tyre inner tubes, banked nearby in piles. The tubes serve as a reservoir for the methane gas produced as the compost ferments. "Once the gas is distilled, washed through small stones in water -- and compressed," Pain explains, "we use it to cook our food, produce our electricity and fuel our truck." He says that it takes about 90 days to produce 500 cubic metres of gas -- enough to keep Ida's two ovens and a three-burner stove going for a year. Leading to a room behind the house, he shows me the methane-fuelled internal combustion engine that turns a generator, producing 100 watts every hour. This charges an accumulator battery, which stores the current, providing all the Pains need to light their five-room house. As Ida drives off in their truck, I see on the roof two gas bottles shaped like long cannon shells. These have a capacity of five cubic metres of compressed gas, allowing her to drive 100 kilometres. Jean says that ten kilos of brush-wood supply the gas equivalent of a litre of high-test petrol. All that is needed to use it as motor fuel is a slight carburettor adjustment. We walk back to the compost. Jean points to a- 40-millimetre-thick plastic tube that runs from a well, through the heap and on to a tap inside the house. He explains that compost heats as it ferments, raising the temperature so that cold water, arriving from the well after passing through 200 metres of tubing wound round the tank, emerges at 60 degrees C. I personally confirm that the water arrives cold at the "cake" and comes out scalding. Once inside the house, the hot water circulates through radiators and heats the house. The compost heap continues fermenting for nearly 18 months, supplying hot water at a rate of four litres a minute, enough to satisfy the central heating, bathroom and kitchen requirements. Then the installation is dismantled and a new compost system is set up at once to assure a continuous supply of hot water.

Lackluster | 07-24-2007 06:56 AM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Rev, I'm not knocking the acorn idea, but it seems like you'd have to pick bushels and bushels of them. Are there really that many around you?

RossL | 07-24-2007 07:14 AM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Quote:
Originally Posted by RealJack (Post 672681) Leading to a room behind the house, he shows me the methane-fuelled internal combustion engine that turns a generator, producing 100 watts every hour.
That is only enough for a few flourescent bulbs. I assume he has no computer, radio, or television. :no_ma:

RossL | 07-24-2007 07:16 AM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Quote:
Originally Posted by Lackluster (Post 672954) Rev, I'm not knocking the acorn idea, but it seems like you'd have to pick bushels and bushels of them. Are there really that many around you?
The link says oaks can produce 6000 pounds per acre. How are you going to harvest all of those? Do they have some kind of sweeper optimized for acorns?

Lackluster | 07-24-2007 07:26 AM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Well, let's see: There are 43560 sqare feet per acre, divide by 6000 lbs equals .137 lbs/sq. ft. Looks like acorns are the fuel source that warms you twice!

REV127 | 07-24-2007 11:15 AM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Quote:
Originally Posted by Lackluster (Post 672954) Rev, I'm not knocking the acorn idea, but it seems like you'd have to pick bushels and bushels of them. Are there really that many around you?
Yup, I've got about an acre of them on my property. More in the woods. When they fall they carpet the ground. As far as harvesting goes, I wouldn't spend much effort on picking them out of the tree or off the ground. What you need is a sheet, tarp or something similar. Two basic concepts. 1, the simplest. Lay the sheet/tarp on the ground, let the acorns fall, gather the corners together and either carry it to your storage and processing site if you can move it or scoop it into a cart/wheelbarrow/similar if you can't. 2, a refinement of the first. Stretch your sheet out between poles, the outer poles taller than the inner poles so the sheet slants toward the trunk. This will catch the acorns as they fall and make them roll toward the trunk and off the end of the sheet, into a waiting bin. You can use a weight, bungie or other means to to create a funnel effect on the low side of the tarp, similar to how you set up a tarp to gather dew for emergency drinking water. A possibility for a mechanical harvester would be something like a shop vac, scaleable to whatever size, with two screens. The first screen would not allow anything much larger than an acorn to enter. The second screen would allow anything much smaller than an acorn to be carried out with the exhaust. The existing nut industry likely has other means of harvest that are worth looking into. If you assume that acorn oil weighs aprox. 7lbs/gallon which seems to be fairly standard for vegetable oils and pick a median figure of 17.5% oil content from a range of 5%-30%, 6,000lbs is 150 gallons of oil per acre of oaks. Below is a chart of oil yields of various other common crops, notice that acorn compares very favorably to such old standard commercial oil crops as corn, soybean, linseed, sesame, sunflower, peanut, olive, rapeseed and castor beans. <TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=362 bgColor=#ffffcc border=1><TBODY><TR><TH width=99>Crop</TH><TH align=middle width=59>kg oil/ha</TH><TH align=middle>litres oil/ha</TH><TH align=middle>lbs oil/acre</TH><TH align=middle>US gal/acre</TH></TR><TR><TD width=99>corn (maize)</TD><TD align=middle width=59>145</TD><TD align=middle>172</TD><TD align=middle>129</TD><TD align=middle>18</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>cashew nut</TD><TD align=middle width=59>148</TD><TD align=middle>176</TD><TD align=middle>132</TD><TD align=middle>19</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>oats</TD><TD align=middle width=59>183</TD><TD align=middle>217</TD><TD align=middle>163</TD><TD align=middle>23</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>lupine</TD><TD align=middle width=59>195</TD><TD align=middle>232</TD><TD align=middle>175</TD><TD align=middle>25</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>kenaf</TD><TD align=middle width=59>230</TD><TD align=middle>273</TD><TD align=middle>205</TD><TD align=middle>29</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>calendula</TD><TD align=middle width=59>256</TD><TD align=middle>305</TD><TD align=middle>229</TD><TD align=middle>33</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>cotton</TD><TD align=middle width=59>273</TD><TD align=middle>325</TD><TD align=middle>244</TD><TD align=middle>35</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>hemp</TD><TD align=middle width=59>305</TD><TD align=middle>363</TD><TD align=middle>272</TD><TD align=middle>39</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>soybean</TD><TD align=middle width=59>375</TD><TD align=middle>446</TD><TD align=middle>335</TD><TD align=middle>48</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>coffee</TD><TD align=middle width=59>386</TD><TD align=middle>459</TD><TD align=middle>345</TD><TD align=middle>49</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>linseed (flax)</TD><TD align=middle width=59>402</TD><TD align=middle>478</TD><TD align=middle>359</TD><TD align=middle>51</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>hazelnuts</TD><TD align=middle width=59>405</TD><TD align=middle>482</TD><TD align=middle>362</TD><TD align=middle>51</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>euphorbia</TD><TD align=middle width=59>440</TD><TD align=middle>524</TD><TD align=middle>393</TD><TD align=middle>56</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>pumpkin seed</TD><TD align=middle width=59>449</TD><TD align=middle>534</TD><TD align=middle>401</TD><TD align=middle>57</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>coriander</TD><TD align=middle width=59>450</TD><TD align=middle>536</TD><TD align=middle>402</TD><TD align=middle>57</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>mustard seed</TD><TD align=middle width=59>481</TD><TD align=middle>572</TD><TD align=middle>430</TD><TD align=middle>61</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>camelina</TD><TD align=middle width=59>490</TD><TD align=middle>583</TD><TD align=middle>438</TD><TD align=middle>62</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>sesame</TD><TD align=middle width=59>585</TD><TD align=middle>696</TD><TD align=middle>522</TD><TD align=middle>74</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>safflower</TD><TD align=middle width=59>655</TD><TD align=middle>779</TD><TD align=middle>585</TD><TD align=middle>83</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>rice</TD><TD align=middle width=59>696</TD><TD align=middle>828</TD><TD align=middle>622</TD><TD align=middle>88</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>tung oil tree</TD><TD align=middle width=59>790</TD><TD align=middle>940</TD><TD align=middle>705</TD><TD align=middle>100</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>sunflowers</TD><TD align=middle width=59>800</TD><TD align=middle>952</TD><TD align=middle>714</TD><TD align=middle>102</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>cocoa (cacao)</TD><TD align=middle width=59>863</TD><TD align=middle>1026</TD><TD align=middle>771</TD><TD align=middle>110</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>peanuts</TD><TD align=middle width=59>890</TD><TD align=middle>1059</TD><TD align=middle>795</TD><TD align=middle>113</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>opium poppy</TD><TD align=middle width=59>978</TD><TD align=middle>1163</TD><TD align=middle>873</TD><TD align=middle>124</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>rapeseed</TD><TD align=middle width=59>1000</TD><TD align=middle>1190</TD><TD align=middle>893</TD><TD align=middle>127</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>olives</TD><TD align=middle width=59>1019</TD><TD align=middle>1212</TD><TD align=middle>910</TD><TD align=middle>129</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>castor beans</TD><TD align=middle width=59>1188</TD><TD align=middle>1413</TD><TD align=middle>1061</TD><TD align=middle>151</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>pecan nuts</TD><TD align=middle width=59>1505</TD><TD align=middle>1791</TD><TD align=middle>1344</TD><TD align=middle>191</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>jojoba</TD><TD align=middle width=59>1528</TD><TD align=middle>1818</TD><TD align=middle>1365</TD><TD align=middle>194</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>jatropha</TD><TD align=middle width=59>1590</TD><TD align=middle>1892</TD><TD align=middle>1420</TD><TD align=middle>202</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>macadamia nuts</TD><TD align=middle width=59>1887</TD><TD align=middle>2246</TD><TD align=middle>1685</TD><TD align=middle>240</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>brazil nuts</TD><TD align=middle width=59>2010</TD><TD align=middle>2392</TD><TD align=middle>1795</TD><TD align=middle>255</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>avocado</TD><TD align=middle width=59>2217</TD><TD align=middle>2638</TD><TD align=middle>1980</TD><TD align=middle>282</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>coconut</TD><TD align=middle width=59>2260</TD><TD align=middle>2689</TD><TD align=middle>2018</TD><TD align=middle>287</TD></TR><TR><TD width=99>oil palm</TD><TD align=middle width=59>5000</TD><TD align=middle>5950</TD><TD align=middle>4465</TD><TD align=middle>635</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> If you were lucky enough to have the high producer, 30% oil content, you'd be looking at a potential 257 gallons per acre.

Darkside | 07-24-2007 11:58 AM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To just goes to show how important it is to live in a nice warm climate. All the high oil producing plants are tropical or sub tropical

Tn...Andy | 07-24-2007 12:00 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Quote:
Originally Posted by RossL (Post 672969) That is only enough for a few flourescent bulbs. I assume he has no computer, radio, or television. :no_ma:
I'm thinking that is a mis-print.......or a HECK of a small engine on that generator....a few horsepower engine would run a 20-30amp 12v alternator, which would be 240-360 watts......my guess is it's a 1000 watts, which would make a lot more sense. Interesting concept in any case. Wonder how they gather and chip the brush for their piles ? Methane powered chainsaw ?

Lackluster | 07-24-2007 12:05 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Trained beavers, maybe?

REV127 | 07-24-2007 12:19 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Monkeys. http://www.macalester.edu/~fines/thai_macaques.html

RealJack | 07-24-2007 01:33 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Domesticate squirrels to pick the acorns and stash them in containers set up under the trees. :D From the information I've looked at so far, methane production is very easy on a small scale. Just using one truck innertube and some pvc tubing and you can build a little system that can produce enough methane to cook one meal a day, that from 3 coffee cans full of chicken shit or some other equivalent. It's really got me thinking, I may already be halfway there. Since I live in a bus, my toilet configuration is quite a bit different than normal. I know this may sound funny, but I'm thinking I may be able to grow methane and cook my food from my own shit. Wouldn't that be a hoot? :bear_w00t: My waste drops into a 100 gallon box. I have been pumping it out, into a humanure composting setup using a 12 volt macerator pump. That would remain the same, but if I cook it or ferment it first, then a large portion of the pathogens in the shit will be destroyed even before I transfer it to the compost heap. The box is vented through the roof, allowing oxygen into the box, which ruins the chance for methane to build up inside the box. However, if I can stop oxygen from entering I will have a good chance of capturing methane and piping it to a gas bladder like a big inner tube or even a series of inner tubes. I guess the question is, do I alone have enough gas to support my cooking and heating needs. :D

REV127 | 07-24-2007 01:50 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To I don't know much about the practical applications of methane at present but just giving it a quick look over with what you've posted here it would appear that a septic system could be converted or created to double as a methane generator. When I had mine pumped out I was told that you have to be very careful working around them because you can pass out from the methane fumes before you know what's happening. Not sure I'd cook my food directly with that methane, though it may be fine. Either way you could definately use it to heat something that you then cook your food on in turn. I'm hoping to build a new house in a few years and that will encompass replacing my current septic system. If I can come up with a good septic powered methane generator between now and then there is no reason I see to not go that route. One more aditional found energy resource.

RealJack | 07-24-2007 04:37 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To One thing I find ironic, is how we in the first world are apparently way behind the ball where it comes to self sufficiency. India and China have been spending vast sums of creative energy with small scale methane production where even now millions of rural people are reaping the benefits of cheap simple home grown methane. I'm not saying first worlders are stupid, it's just that we've been hoodwinked by sugar daddy into believing he will take care of all our needs. Ok, maybe most of us are stupid, sitting on daddy's knee, completely unaware that daddy is slipping our little knickers down. :shocked_ma: We seem to have forgotten how to take care of ourselves. How to grow our own food. Our own energy needs. Our own spiritual connection to the world. Those three things go hand in hand, imo. I believe there's enough energy just laying around going to waste in our own yards to supply us with our needs indefinitely. I also believe that "necessity really is the mother of invention." Unfortunately, I don't have access to good sweet acorns on this six acres. What I do have in abundance though, is bahia grass, and after reading up on various permaculture ideas, I recently realized grass' potential as compost. So, for the past month I've been a mowing and bagging fool. I've been mulching the garden like crazy. I've been mulching and composting every tree. Dozens of young Sycamores and citrus trees, and let me tell you, it's already making a huge difference in their health and sturdiness. By the way, I live in horse and cattle country. Factoring conservatively, going by what I've harvested so far this summer, I'm figuring a minimum of 200 square bails worth of grass this wet season. Buying a square bail of bahia around here runs about $5 or $6 a bail. Since I pretty much have to mow anyway, I'm saving plenty of FRN's for better use. Silver... That's not mowing the whole six acres. Just the lawn area, about 1 and a half acres. Still, it's keeping me busy between the rain storms. I know it sounds stupid simple, but for me simple is usually the first thing I tend to overlook. This grass wouldn't be much good for livestock though, due to the method of harvest, a Snapper riding mower. Too dirty. I also have a 25 hp diesel tractor and a bush hog, but as of yet, no way to gather the grass growing out in the field. Grass also produces methane when it's composted hot. I want to thank you, Rev, for sort of helping me think about chickens. My next little project is going to be a chicken hutch with a door right out into the fenced in garden, where they can help me manage the bugs and nuisance weeds and last but not least, feed the garden. I've got rabbits already. I've been putting it off out of concern over what to do about five knuckleheaded dogs and two cats who think they own the place. All this symbiotic inter-dependency stuff has my head swirling with an unusual optimism for the future. I'm growing a bit fatigued by all the "WTSHTF" scenarios, Now I'm starting to realize (remember) the end is just a new beginning. I've spent time in Mexico, Central and S. America, and aside from some inconveniences, what is known as the third world really isn't so bad. It seemed to me that average people down there knew something we somehow forgot in our lust for linoleum and mega-malls. How to smile and cry unselfconsciously, in the face of our own beautiful nature.

REV127 | 07-24-2007 10:10 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To I've been keeping my 3.5 acres in check with a push mower while I await large herbivores. There is quite a lot of useful compost to be harvested that way but my pond is my main source of composting material. Duckweed and spatterdock. You can't hardly erradicate that stuff if you try, it's self-composting and grows back very, very quickly. It will be key in my high intensity market gardening operation. And it's producing fish and storing water for me while still yielding compost. Beautiful! Yup. You can accept the realities of the world for what they are, but instead of focusing as much energy into worrying about SHTF you can put that energy into creating systems that will minimalize its potential impact on you. In fact you can create systems that will make you wealthier and help out your fellow man in such conditions. I've noticed the same effect about the third world, they're the ones getting outfitted with all the sustainable technologies while we're circling the drain. You don't have to be primitive to be renewable and sustainable, just thoughtful. I made a new discovery. Okra seeds have 40% oil content. The total yield per acre was said to be about the same as sunflower, so around 100 gallons. This is very interesting to me as I'm growing cow horn okra, a particularly large cultivar.

bottom feeder | 07-24-2007 10:32 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 673314) opium poppy 124 Gallons per acre
Wah-Ho! Double crop!!! bf

RossL | 07-25-2007 08:57 AM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 673442) I don't know much about the practical applications of methane at present but just giving it a quick look over with what you've posted here it would appear that a septic system could be converted or created to double as a methane generator. When I had mine pumped out I was told that you have to be very careful working around them because you can pass out from the methane fumes before you know what's happening.
The french guy used a hermetically sealed container for the methane generation. I assume that was to make the methane collection easy. A septic system isn't hermetically sealed so you would have to devise a way to get the solid waste in without letting the methane out. Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 673442) Not sure I'd cook my food directly with that methane, though it may be fine. Either way you could definately use it to heat something that you then cook your food on in turn.
The article said the methane was washed over wet stones and compressed. It didn't show that in the diagram.

Unclad Lad | 07-26-2007 12:25 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Quote:
A septic system isn't hermetically sealed so you would have to devise a way to get the solid waste in without letting the methane out.
Not necessarily. Methane is lighter than air, so if your wastes are entering in a slurry (liquid), then as long as your input pipe is lower than the methane valve (at the top, natch) the amount of air coming in should be minimal.

RealJack | 07-26-2007 04:19 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To 1 Attachment(s) http://www.green-trust.org/2000/biof...tesmethane.htm Here's another fun article about home methane production, circa: 1971 :wink: Quote:
The Marvelous Chicken-Powered Car Barry Grindrod ABOVE: Who needs a tiger in their tank? Harold Bate, chicken farmer and inventor from Devonshire, England says that you can power your motor vehicles with droppings from chickens, pigs or any other animal of your choice... even with your own waste! To prove his statement is no idle boast, Harold has been operating a 1953 Hillman and a five-ton truck on methane gas generated by decomposing pig and chicken manure for years. He claims that the equivalent of a gallon of high-test gasoline costs him only about 3d and that the low-cost methane makes his vehicles run faster, cleaner and better than they operate on "store bought" fuel. Mr. Bate stands beside his famous Hillman in the photo above. Harold Bate was born in 1908 in the city of Stoke in England's industrial midlands. He left school at the age of 14 to work as an apprentice mechanic with the Potteries Traction Company. Here he learned many basic engineering skills working on the old streetcars before becoming a maintenance engineer with the Stafford Coal and Iron Company. While with Stafford, Bate spent his spare time developing Submarine escape devices and advanced independent suspension systems for automobiles. In 1937, Harold Bate lost a leg in a driving accident. This would have been the beginning of an insurmountable infirmity for many people...but not for Harold. Ten years later.. with wife, young daughter and cane-he set out for the grandest adventure of all: a driving tour of Africa. "We traveled in an old ex-Army' jeep," says Bate," and, in eight years, drove 380,000 miles. It was hard, it was hot and-at times-it was dangerous...but we wouldn't have missed it for the world. We loved every minute. Our daughter learnt more out there than she ever would have in school." While in Africa, Bate prospected for gold and uranium in Rhodesia and Tanganyika (now Tanzania) and- on more than one occasion-the Family was attacked by bandits and had to fight for their lives. For one long stretch, they lived off what wild game they could hunt in mile after mile of mango swamps (well stocked with poisonous snakes) through which they passed. But there were good times too. The Bates were treated like Royalty when they visited the Sheiks of the North African deserts, for instance, and the family was also well looked after by head hunters in another primitive area. As the remarkable and durable Mr. Bate says, "It was one hell of an adventure." On his return to England in 1955, Harold worked as an electrical contractor, started a ferry boat service and drove a taxi before turning his attention to unleashing the power hidden in manure. Detroit and the large petroleum interests keep saying it can't be done but a 62-year-old English inventor has already done it. Harold Bate, British chicken farmer and experimenter, has developed a small conversion unit that makes any ordinary automobile virtually pollution-free. What's more (and hang on to your hat for this one) the Bate converter can also cut your fuel, oil, sparkplug and other miscellaneous automobile operating expenses by a factor of ten! The Bate system accomplishes these amazing feats as naturally as a compost pile by recycling animal droppings and sewage into methane: a Colorless, odorless, flammable gas. This means that, as a bonus, Harold Bate's development just may go a long way toward safely and naturally reclaiming the mountains of waste with which "civilized man " seems determined to bury the planet. Interestingly enough, Bate did not make his noteworthy breakthrough in a well-equipped laboratory or while working on a multi-million dollar research grant. The converter and other parts of the Bate system were developed by Harold from odds and ends at hand as he puttered about his 450-year-old cottage and chicken farm in the heart of Devonshire. To be sure, Harold Bate has invented nothing new in the way of a basic process. Methane has been forming naturally in swamps and waste organic matter since long before man walked the earth and many ingenious experimenters have harnessed this source of fuel in the past (see SOLUTION TO POLLUTION, ELECTRICITY FROGS MANURE GASES and HOW TO GENERATE POWER FROM GARBAGE in MOTHER NO. 3). But Harold does seem to be the first to have actually put the whole idea on a workable, homestead, "anybody can do it" basis. From a 450-year-old cottage in the heart of Devonshire, England, a 62-year-old inventor is selling a remarkable chicken-powered car to the world. Yes, you read correctly. A chicken-powered car... for Harold Bate has devised a way of producing automobile fuel from animal droppings. The secret is methane, a common by-product of the natural process of decomposition and a much cleaner fuel than gasoline. Mr. Bate generates methane in usable quantities by simply speeding up nature a bit with a pressure "digests"...just as an organic gardener speeds up the decomposition of natural matter with a compost pile. There's nothing complicated nor expensive about the Bate digester. Whereas the large petroleum corporations must refine gasoline in complex, multi-million dollar plumbing nightmares, Harold's methane cooker looks more like a recycled home fruit canner and is small enough to fit into the corner of any basement or garage. Converting a private car to operate on this natural fuel is just as straightforward and economical and-for an initial investment of $100 or less and a little elbow grease-almost anyone should be able to start riding the roads virtually free of charge... assuming there's a supply of animal droppings and/or other organic waste at hand. The 16th Century Bate abode where this "everyman's gasoline plant" was born is not the easiest place to find. It's two miles from the nearest small village, well off the beaten track and completely hidden by trees... which is why the Bates moved in some four years ago. "We're away from it all here," says Harold. "We can't hear any traffic nor church bells. That's a blessing. I hate church bells... they're so mournful." Despite-or, perhaps, because of-their recluse life, the Bates are cheerful, hospitable people who love the country and the way of life that goes with it. ABOVE LEFT: Harold Bate's pilot Manure Extractor and the Manure Digester that he uses for day-to-day generation of automobile and truck fuel. Note the high-pressure compressor with which Bate fills a storage bottle (lower left of photo) to pressure of 1100 pounds per square inch. ABOVE RIGHT: From this cluttered home workshop, Harold Bate challenged the multi-billion dollar petroleum industry and won! BELOW RIGHT: Graphic proof that Harold's small pilot Manure Extractor does the job! Methane from the digester first bubbles into a gallon bottle of water and then passes to a small gas jet where it is easily ignited and supports a flame. Obviously, part of the methane generated by a large digester can be piped to a burner under the extractor for use in maintaining the tank at the optimum gas generating temperature. BELOW LEFT: Harold Bate holds pressure tank of home-made methane. Their closest friends are numbered amongst the local wildlife community and, throughout the day, a variety of birds fly into the open windows of the family cottage. Rabbits and squirrels are also a common sight on the Bate homestead. In this tranquil setting, I asked Mr. Bate how he came to start work on his "free and clean" automobile fuel. "It all started with the Suez Crisis in 1953," Harold said. "When Egypt closed the canal, it blocked England's supply route with the Middle and Far East. This meant that petrol imports were crippled and fuel here in Great Britain was rationed. I got fed up with that and started looking round for an alternative form of power. I knew that gas engines were used before petrol (gasoline) and I also knew that gas was more efficient than petrol... so I began to experiment. "During the war I had done quite a bit of pig farming, and I knew that manure contained gases and that pig manure was very potent. A number of experimenters and sanitation facilities have been extracting gas from sewage for years now, but it's diluted so much that the process is slow. I therefore decided to concentrate on animal manure and find the best blend from which to extract methane... and then develop a method of feeding this gas into a car's engine. "After experiments with just about every type of animal manure, I found I got the best results from mixing that of chickens and pigs. Chicken manure contains more nitrogen than others and pig droppings are useful because they generate heat so well." Bate has also found a certain amount of straw and/or vegetable waste to be a valuable addition to his methane raw materials. The manure contributes mainly nitrogen and the straw provides carbon, it seems. The ideal mixture is about 75% droppings (half pig and half chicken) and 25% straw. Methane brewed up from this formula has a caloric value per liquid pound of 22,000 B.T.U. as compared to gasoline's 19,000, propane's 19,944 and butane's l9,680. The excreta-straw formula is first stacked up into a compost pile, doused with water and left exposed to the air for about a week of aerobic prefermentation. When this prefermentation is complete, about three hundred pounds of the mixture is shoveled into a heavy steel container (Bate recommends a trash- mongered domestic water heater) and sealed shut. A wait of four, five or even seven days-depending on conditions-is then necessary before fermentation of the first batch starts. If a little of the original mix is left behind as a starter, however, gas production will usually begin within 24 hours for all following batches. The real secret of a rapid, strong and complete transformation of waste into the maximum amount of methane is the maintenance of the 85 to 90� F temperature at which the necessary bacteriological digestion is most active. If the temperature of the digester rises above 104� F, no gas will be produced at all and -- in extremely hot regions -- a methane production unit should be shaded or otherwise protected from the heat. A digester set up in a temperate or cooler zone, on the other hand, may need some supplemental heating from an electric element inside the tank or a small kerosene (or methane!) flame under the unit. By the way, for those who speculate that the methane used to heat the digester might total more than the gas produced by the unit... taint so! An extremely low flame (a car sump heater is ideal) under a Bate digester can cause the tank to yield a right vigorous flow of gas. Bate has fitted his digester tank with a safety valve set for 60 p.s.i. "just in case". Pressures in the ex- tractor seldom reach a third that level, however, be- cause Harold considers a digester internal pressure of 20 p.s.i. to be the signal to start up a high-pressure compressor (of the type used for filling aqualung diving bottles) and pump the collected gas from the extractor into an ordinary high-pressure bottle. A filter between the digester and pressure bottle extracts the small quantities of phosphoric acid and ammonia that are present and the remaining almost- pure methane liquefies at a pressure of 1110 p.s.i. Bate finals that it takes about one-half hour of steady pumping to fill a 32-pound (4.5 Imperial gallon) bottle to its capacity of liquid methane. This figures out to approximately 200 cubic feet of dry gas... or a fuel equivalent of seven gallons of good petrol (about eight and three-quarters gallon of high-test gasoline, to readers in the US). The digester will continue to produce for several weeks and will then have to be topped up with more manure and the sludge run off. All in all, a single filling of 300 pounds of manure will produce about 1500 cubic feet of methane equivalent to roughly 50 gallons of petrol (62 US gallons). That's not bad and Bate figures it costs trim only three cents to produce the equal of an Imperial gallon of petrol. Once he had a guaranteed supply of methane, Harold next faced the problem of getting the high-pressure gas into his car's engine in the exact amount required by the powerplant under all operating conditions. His answer, of course, was the now-famous 6" x 5" carburetor attachment which he calls the Bate Auto Gas Converter. The attachment (it looks like a model flying saucer) fits between the methane pressure bottle and the car's carburetor and allows the cylinders of the engine to suck just enough methane-and no more- from the bottle as the fuel is needed. The only modification made on the engine itself is the simple tubular jet which is threaded into the choke tube of the carburetor before the throttle butterfly valve. A run of rubber tubing connects this to the Bate converter and a further run goes back to wherever the methane bottle is carried. No mechanical linkage or other complicated modification is necessary. Incidentally, the storage of the methane need not be restricted to high pressure bottles. A rubber dinghy, air bed or even giant inner tubes carried on the roof of the car would be just as effective... or as Bate says, "Fill your tires with methane and run till they're flat!" Motoring on methane offers more. than the $.03-a- gallon economy mentioned earlier. Mr. Bate finds ABOVE LEFT: Nothing fancy here! Harold has simply "hay wired" the methane gas cylinder valve to the steering wheel of his Hillman. ABOVE RIGHT: The Bate Auto Gas Converter (demand regulator) as mounted in Harold's 1953 Hillman. The white cover here is purely decoration. Note, again, the rather casual manner in which Bate has installed his accessories in his own car. BELOW RIGHT: We find secured by another twist of wire the pressure tank of methane which fuels the Bate Hillman. In this case, the tank is a recycled "camping gas" bottle of a type common in England. BELOW LEFT: The patented Bate Auto Gas Converter with all frills removed. This important piece of hardware and instructions for setting up your own methane plant is what you receive when you buy a converter from Bate. FAR BELOW LEFT: There are days when being a world-famous chicken farmer-inventor is a royal drag. that the gas gives 97 to 98% combustion compared to the 27% combustion (with the rest going out the exhaust in the form of carbon and pollution) of gasoline. So there's a definite ecological benefit. Engine wear is also markedly cut since methane, being dry, cannot dilute nor contaminate motor oil in the way that gasoline does... and sparkplugs last much longer. "I've taken plugs out of my car after five years and more, and they've been as clean as the day I put them in," says Bate. "My car runs cleaner, smoother and has more power on methane." To prove his words were no idle boast, Harold took me for a demonstration drive in his famous 1953 chicken-powered Hillman. When he started the car on petrol and the vehicle broke into a rather lumpy idle, Bate flicked a switch on the dashboard and turned a knob on the steering column. "I've cut off the petrol," he explained. "When the float chamber on the carburetor empties, we'll be running on methane. You'll see the difference." And I did. In a matter of moments the rather weary 18-year-old engine settled down to a smooth purr and, on a short demonstration run, the bulky vehicle made light work of the switchback lanes around Bate's home. Throttle response was incredibly good and there were no fiat spots such as are common with carburetion using normal fuel in machines of this age. "I get five more miles to the gallon on methane than I get from an equivalent amount of petrol," Harold said. "This is because the dry methane has a higher calorific value and there is no waste of unvaporized fluid. Absence of oil dilution and reduced carbon deposits are just bonuses." Incidentally, all the advantages which methane bestows on an automobile-economy, pollution reduction, longer life and reduced maintenance-are just as evident when the gas is burned in tractors, trucks and stationary engines. Methane produced on the homestead can also be used to heat water, run a refrigerator, cook food, warm a house and do all the other jobs that we now do with natural gas. With a large enough digester and a ready supply of animal droppings, then, it is possible that a family farm might supply all its own power requirements from this one source alone. Of course, it remains to be seen if such self-containment is desirable. Perhaps we're all better off simply recycling the manure back to the fields, selling the car and appliances and getting a horse. Time will tell. In the meantime, it certainly is possible to construct a methane generator large enough to power a homestead, and Mr. Bate has devised one that utilizes septic tank wastes. This large digester consists of a pit dug in the ground and lined with brick or concrete (a tank built on a low foundation above ground would also suffice) measuring approximately 10-feet square with an adjoining storage tank of the same size or larger. To prepare the system for non-stop production of methane, the usual septic tank vent pipe is fitted with a gas trap and any other openings are sealed. A no- return flap valve is fixed on the sewer pipe where it enters the digester (to keep the gas from escaping through the inlet) and another no-return valve is inserted in the line between the extractor and storage tank. This allows methane to pass to storage (but not return) as the gas is generated. A hole is then made in the digester cover and a thermostatic electric immersion heater is mounted so that it reaches well down into the raw sewage. The thermostat is set to give a steady heat of 85 to 90 degrees Fahrenheit and another small hole is drilled in the digester cover for the insertion of a check thermometer into the sewage from time to time. This last hole is fitted with a gas-tight stopper except for the brief periods when a temperature check is being made. If the tank is built above the ground, the digester can be heated by a steam pipe run through the contents and connected to the domestic hot water supply. It can also be heated by a gas ring or burner under the extractor and, once methane is being produced, this burner may be connected into the gas storage tank... allowing the system to heat itself. As ingenious as this arrangement may be, Harold Bate's restless mind is already far down the road to greater things. At the moment he's waiting for a patent on his discovery of a method for abstracting the liquid content from chicken manure. It seems that chicken droppings in their natural state are too sticky to be a convenient fertilizer... but - with the liquid abstracted - the manure makes two very good fertilizers, one dry and one liquid. "The so-called experts have been working on that one for years," chuckles Bate. "I solved it in no time. It's a question, I think, of overlooking the obvious. My next project, if and when I get the time, is the development of an electric car that will generate its own power. I know I can do it." In the meantime, Harold is still faced with the problem of convincing the boffins and powers-that-be to accept his already-proven ideas on methane. The Bate conversion, you see, has already received the stamp of official approval from the British Government's Ministry of Transport... but it seems distinctly unlikely that those chaps-who collect a 75% tax from the price of petrol-are going to advocate a mass changeover to homemade fuel at $.03 a gallon. The story is much the same right down the line: it takes money to promote and market do-it-yourself methane on a large scale... and the people with money generally find it to their advantage not to pro- mote methane. Be that as it may, the facts speak for themselves. Bate's invention is simple, it's incredibly inexpensive... and it works. Hundreds of people, who are now driving chicken-powered cars the world over after contacting Mr. Bate directly, can vouch for that. And the word is beginning to spread. So-until a large firm finally sees the light, buys Harold out and begins to promote his digester and converter in a big way - Mr. Bate and his wife, Evelyn, will continue doing the job alone. And that means that, for as many as 18 hours a day, Evelyn will sit in the picturesque 16th-Century cottage answering letters while Harold handcrafts methane generators in a small workshop at the bottom of the garden path. That seems as nice a way to change the world as any.

RealJack | 07-26-2007 04:35 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Quote:
Originally Posted by RossL (Post 674319) The french guy used a hermetically sealed container for the methane generation. I assume that was to make the methane collection easy. A septic system isn't hermetically sealed so you would have to devise a way to get the solid waste in without letting the methane out. The article said the methane was washed over wet stones and compressed. It didn't show that in the diagram.
From what I've read, the smelly component is sulfur dioxide, which can easily be scrubbed by running the gas through iron filings. Also, it's really not the smell that's the problem since that gets burned off anyway, it's that sulfur dioxide is corrosive to metal and wears the burner parts too fast. So, if you run the gas through iron filings and then bubble it through water, the remaining gas is perfectly clean. Of course, the real problem with all these alternative fuel sources is and has been, federal, state and local "GOVERNMENT," because they can't tax and collectivize us when we are self sufficient. GOVERNMENT hates self sufficient people because then GOVERNMENT has little or no reason to even exist. :D

RealJack | 07-26-2007 11:26 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Here's a modern small scale methane producing biodigester design built with HDPE. http://biorealis.com/digester/construction.html Check it out. It looks pretty simple to me. Something easily and inexpensively built. I'm not sure I understand the function of the bulkhead fittings, though. This little unit might be nearly perfect for the septic setup in the basement of my bus, replacing my existing 100 gal. black water box. The effluent could be pumped out via a 12 volt macerator, the same way I'm doing it now. Pumped out 99% detoxified, into the humanure compost to further break down into super rich organic fertilizer. The gas could be scrubbed through 2 paint buckets. One filled with iron filings and the last one with water. It may also need to pass through some sort of drying agent. Not sure about that. I think methane is inherently a dry gas. Finally, it could be compressed into standard propane bottles. That way I wouldn't have to alter the stove/oven, water heater or my platinum cat catalytic vented heater. Not only that, I could run the fridge off this stuff. Not only that, I could run my 8 kw diesel generator off this stuff.:bull-buddy-icon: I wonder how expensive a scuba tank compressor is?

sanyo | 07-27-2007 12:06 AM
Acorns are eaten by Koreans who make a jello out of the power of the acorns, they soak in water many times then ground into a power after sun drying. A shoe box sized jello square can be sold for about 10.00$ , it is considered a healthy food and used as a side dish not much taste so soybean oil is added .

teedub31 | 07-27-2007 01:04 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Not up to date on the science of acorn to fuel, but here is my two cents. Acorn mast production in central Indiana has been poor at best much of the last decade. I am not sure what your figures are based upon, but I figure it's from a good mast. We have plenty of oaks but few acorns. Not sure the effort would be beneficial in my neck of the woods.

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RossL | 07-27-2007 11:35 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Quote:
Originally Posted by RealJack (Post 676500) Here's a modern small scale methane producing biodigester design built with HDPE. http://biorealis.com/digester/construction.html Check it out. It looks pretty simple to me. Something easily and inexpensively built. I'm not sure I understand the function of the bulkhead fittings, though. This little unit might be nearly perfect for the septic setup in the basement of my bus, replacing my existing 100 gal. black water box.
I'm thinking that all the examples have sealed methane tanks or bulkhead fittings to make it easier to collect the methane. The methane is produced slowly from the fermenting of the solid waste. If the tank is sealed, the only place for the methane to go is the plastic pipe to the inner tubes. Continuous pressure pushes it there. Easy and simple.

Fixture | 07-29-2007 04:59 PM
Re: Potential Fuel Source That Many Of Us Probably Have Access To Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 671611) Anyway, just thought I'd pass this on as a valuable natural resource to anybody with some oaks and a diesel...
Just had an article in the local newspaper regarding a guy down the road making his own bio-diesel... http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/...ews/news02.txt in part...""If you have an inquisitive mind, you have to try it," Brandon said. <table class="cltable" align="right" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td align="center"> <!-- AdSys ad not found for news:instory --> <!-- [adsys_ad::middle] --> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> After researching the process on the Internet, the frugal Brandon found dieselsecret.com - a Website that explains using biodiesel is a simpler process than people think. It does not require purchasing an expensive conversion kit for the fuel. Brandon did not want to spend $1,000 on a conversion kit like his Spokane Veterans Administration doctor did, he said. Instead, for $12 he bought a bottle of Dieselsecret, spent another $12 for shipping and $200 for filters and pumps to build his own garage mixing station. The biodiesel takes five ingredients - 1 ounce Dieselsecret, 4 ounces diesel fuel supplement, 5 gallons vegetable oil, 1 quart gasoline, and a half-gallon kerosene. Brandon mixes them together, then runs them through a pump, a plain kitchen filter, a second pump, a charcoal filter and then a water block filter that removes any water from the mixture. After that, he simply fills the fuel tank. Dieselsecret estimates it costs 45 cents a gallon for the biodiesel, but Brandon said it costs him even less because he gets his vegetable oil for free and he makes his own version of the Website's secret ingredient - a 50/50 mix of naphtha and mineral spirits...." Some of you diesel vehicle owners may want to read the entire article.

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