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Hivemindgammahydra7 | 03-19-2007 02:51 PM
Shotgun question 4 U I've been considering a semiauto shotgun purchase for "up close and personal" situations. I tend to favor a semiauto on account of a higher ROF. Also, I've seen/read of a number of debriefs where some guy got a pump action out and went to work, but under the stress of combat (adrenaline pumping, etc.) failed to fully bring the slide all the way back as he worked it. Not good. OTOH, a retired deputy now working here at the school says he always used a pump and never had an issue in the field. He said he doesn't like semiautos because he's seen too many semis jam in critical situations. Also not good. So which way should I go?

Goldfinger | 03-19-2007 02:59 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U Just my two pennies, but its kinda hard to beat a pump. First off, they are definately more reliable. Much easier to clear in the extremely rare instance there is a hang. They tend to be cheaper. And finally, theres just nothing quite as intimidating as a pump action being charged.

REV127 | 03-19-2007 03:01 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U I think the Saiga 12's are cool because they use detachable box magazines. Otherwise I've never noticed much difference in speed between a pump and a semi auto shotgun. I find the recoil does most of the work for me, somehow. As far as short stroking goes, that's a training issue. Make sure you're slammed all the way back before trying to chamber the next round. I'm no expert shotgunner though and I'm sure others will have more input to offer.

Infidel | 03-19-2007 03:03 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U Racking a pump shotgun is a deterrent not to be underestimated. As for higher rate of fire...... :albertein You probably do not want a higher rate of fire with a 12 gauge. Or even 20 gauge. I can only think that a higher rate of fire is good for follow up shots on ducks. Another bonus is that there is none of that racking sound when duck hunting to go from empty to ready. Leave semi auto shotguns to hunters. If I were buying one in semi auto it would be a Baikal MP153 shotgun. I had a chance to get one for 250 but opted for a winchester 1300. It shoots minishells (12 rds in an 18" bbl "Defender") really well and I want to get some. http://www.aguilaammo.com/minishells.htm If you were not in California I would think a Saiga-12 is the way to go. But we can't have any cause it is based on AK

drafter | 03-19-2007 03:03 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U I've got a buddy who "broke" his semiauto Mossberg shotgun while we were out shooting once. I don't recall exactly what broke, but it was serious enough that it required a trip back to the factory because it wasn't something a local smith could do without extensive machining (basically the gun was trashed). My 500 mariner has never failed to function or go bang. I'm sure some of the more expensive ie, Berreta types are more reliable, but I can't afford to waste my money on a "cordless drill" when a "hammer" will work just fine.

Infidel | 03-19-2007 03:03 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U or that Benelli. I have better ways to part with 2.5 K though

Kahlil Gibran | 03-19-2007 03:11 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U http://www.borelliconsulting.com/evals/guns/rem870.htm

J.D.Rockinfeller | 03-19-2007 03:20 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U Consider a "striker", H-7, as 12 rounds of 12 ga. ought to get it done!:D No semi auto gas mech. to go wrong, no slide to rack:yippee: ...AND! the guv. just hates it!:beer: black...plastic....neato....need i say more?

RealMoney | 03-19-2007 04:49 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U I'd go with the pump. Ultimate in reliability. What happens to the semi auto if it gets dropped in the mud? I was watching this thing on the History Channel on these marines on patrol in Afghanistan. It was a small squad that had the usual M4's(M-16s to most people), a machine gun and one guy that had a pump shotgun. A grenade disable the machine gun, 2 of the M4's jammed due to dust most likely. I think 1 m4 was working. The guy with the pump managed to take out a couple of taliban and push them back with help from another guy. The point is the pump will always function as long as you do your part. Drop it in the mud get, get dust, it's still gonna go. As for speed between semi and pump? Not that much difference. If you are in that hairy a firefight, you are in the wrong kind of firefight.

REV127 | 03-19-2007 04:55 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U Assuming that Extrema 2 was a 12 gauge and it was firing ordinary shells, that is some amazing recoil reduction! I would agree about wanting a pistol as backup for any longarm, the hands and arms have always been liable to take defensive or incidental wounds and you could very well find yourself in a condition that makes it difficult to manage a rifle or shotgun.

hoarder | 03-19-2007 04:57 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U The reliability of auto shotguns is not comparable to auto handguns. This, alnog with slow rate of fire is why few rely on them for defense. Don't underestimate doubles! A side by side 12 guage double with an 18" barrel loaded with buckshot is agreat defense shotgun and you can squeeze off two rounds faster than any other kind of shotgun, even both at the same time if you want.

Libertarian_Guard | 03-19-2007 05:07 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U My choice..... PUMP I have a great deal more confidence in a pump shotgun than any auto-loader!

gunner | 03-19-2007 05:07 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U Semi-auto without breaking the bank - a Saiga 12 is a fun gun, plus you can trick it out with a folding forgrip, folding stock and even an 8 rd mag. Function seems to be pretty reliable, built on an AK style frame. Mossberg 590 marine edition - mine has always worked flawlessly. I put a knox-stock on it to absorb some recoil, and I will be changing the foregrip (again). Had original, changed it to pistol grip pump, going to go with the original with a strap - seen them in gun shows. I like the idea of being able to pull the foregrip all the way back towards you without having to clamp down your hand on it. The strap will keep your hand in place - one less thing to worry about in a stressful situation or one in which you've been weakened. ....then of course there's always the Spas12 :^)

Ghost Recon | 03-19-2007 05:13 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U The last time I fired my Mossberg Persuader, 12 gauge, I didn't have any padding between my shoulder and the gun. There's no room. I fired 8 rounds of Remington 00Buck, 2.75". My shoulder hurt but I figured it would go away in a day or two. The next day pain started to build up in my rib cage. I'm pretty sure that I tore a muscle. It took 6 weeks for it to heal up. Fortunately I had some pain killer. I don't want to go through that again. What do I do? Go to 20 gauge? Managed-recoil rounds? Put lead shot in the stock? Have a gun smith install some sort of recoil unit?

REV127 | 03-19-2007 05:25 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U As far as jamming a pump action shotgun goes, there is a momment in time when the shell is being taken from the tubular magazine but has not yet entered the chamber. Though it is a narrow window of opportunity, I've found that if the shotgun turns the wrong way at this moment it can jam. It is very unlikely though, almost impossible unless you rack it slowly. Recoil management on a shotgun is similar to that with a rifle, hold it in tight on a meaty portion of your shoulder. There are people who have a more advanced system I never learned that seems to work wonders. I think I recall something like "turnipseed stance." Otherwise yeah, find a mechanical means of recoil reduction. Pads work well.

J.D.Rockinfeller | 03-19-2007 05:31 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U How about a side by side (heavy)...with ejectors:albertein ...kind of like peter hathaway capstick...only urban.:haha:

gunner | 03-19-2007 05:33 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U www.knoxx.com http://www.cabelas.com/prod-1/0012785224733a.shtml <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=380 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=3>http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/images/widetab.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD align=left width=1 bgColor=#000000>http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/im...ack-spacer.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top width=378><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=365 align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=normal vAlign=top align=right>With over 4" of adjustment, these adjustable stocks can be made to fit a shotgun to any shooter; and with Knoxx's patented recoil reduction system, felt recoil is reduced as much as 95%. The combination of superior fit and recoil reduction results in maximized accuracy, reduced muzzle flip and quick follow-up shots when needed. The NRS (No Recoil Suppression) model does not include the Knoxx recoil suppression system, and brings adjustable length-of-pull to your pump shotgun at a bargain price. It can be quickly and easily adjusted from 11-1/4" to 15-1/2". Polymer construction. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/co...24733sn01d.jpg

Ghost Recon | 03-19-2007 05:33 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U that porting......will it increase the noise level? I've already lost the hearing in one ear. I've thought about getting a pair of those electronic ear muffs. I'd have to keep them next to the gun... Back to the thread....I've heard that the semiauto's decrease recoil by quite a bit.

hoarder | 03-19-2007 05:40 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U Quote:
Originally Posted by J.D.Rockinfeller (Post 544560) How about a side by side (heavy)...with ejectors:albertein ...kind of like peter hathaway capstick...only urban.:haha:
Unfortunately 99% of all doubles you'll find out there have extractors, not ejectors. One strategy would be to fire both barrels, drop shotgun while drawing handgun. I like doubles. Short, quick and handy.

omegaman | 03-19-2007 05:45 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U I highly recommend a pump gun over a semi. You can never go wrong with a Remington 870. If you can fine one with a Poly Choke you have definite keeper. The Poly Choke, while certainly not attractive, allows you to change your choke rapidly without changing barrels or going to the bother of changing choke tubes. I have found this to be a very useful feature while hunting and would certainly be even more useful when dealing with 2 legged varmints.

Quixote2 | 03-19-2007 05:52 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U In the good old days about 50 years ago in South Dakota,,, Opening day walk up on a prime pheasant patch, I would dump 5 roosters with my pump and my dad with his double and carrying two shells in his left hand would drop two, reload, and drop two more while I was shooting my five. All shots picked from the 50-100 birds flushed so the birds would drop in the cleared field and not in the brush. That said, I prefer the pump and instinct/memory to point the shotgun. Will be more effective than aiming a rifle much less a handgun.

Anty Ep | 03-19-2007 06:19 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 544383) I think the Saiga 12's are cool because they use detachable box magazines. Otherwise I've never noticed much difference in speed between a pump and a semi auto shotgun. I find the recoil does most of the work for me, somehow. As far as short stroking goes, that's a training issue. Make sure you're slammed all the way back before trying to chamber the next round. I'm no expert shotgunner though and I'm sure others will have more input to offer.
if you shoot skeet or clays you sure can notice. and I dont mind saying I'm fast as hell with a pump. but once you get the hang of em autos are fast as hhhhhhelll

Anty Ep | 03-19-2007 06:22 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U whats that a beretta 391? I learned autoloader shotgun on a beretta 390. it was under $1k. Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 544384) Video of the Extrema2 (12 shots in 1.73 seconds).....
anyhow just cut the crap and get a mossberg 590, parkerized, with ghost ring sights. best value for the money, works well, etc. when silver shoots the moon and we're all rich we can buy those fancy guns. for now it's guns that go bang ev'ry time.

Au_Ag | 03-19-2007 07:06 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U I've got both - As another poster indicated - M1 Super 90 Benelli is an excellent way to go - ultra-reliable - about $850 or so. I have seen where professional guides on central/south american bird hunts furnish Benelli's for clients who don't bring their own - for the reliablity and ease of upkeep. The recoil operated action softens the recoil also - A pump - gonna be cheaper - harder recoil, can be short stroked (this is the common cause of pump malfunctions) However, if you make it a habit of "positive force" working the pump - short stroking should not be a problem. This is only gonna be the case if you use it enough to develop that habit - and have a few short strokes to motivate you. If FRNs are not an issue - one of the newer Benelli models can be fired auto or pump - M3 - is about $1250 or so. I shot plate matches with the M1 super 90 Benelli - never a malfunction, smooth ultra-reliable function and shoots very, very well for me - somehow the recoil operation is just right to index/acquire targets quickly and smoothly. IMHO, the best one for you to buy is the one that you will shoot often. Racking the pump is undeniably a forceful action - I leave the pump in a closet - shells hidden - because I've owned/used that pump for 30 years. I can load it in the dark, be lethal quickly and confidently. In all honesty, if you're not going to shoot it much - you're probably better with a Benelli or other auto - If you're not gonna use it very much at all- you may well short stroke the pump under high stress. IMHO, speed is not an issue here. Your willingness to shoot it often is a major issue - the Benelli will be easier on your shoulder My two copper pennies

omegaman | 03-19-2007 10:20 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 544589) Sure you can, by not having an extremely reliable sidearm when carrying your 870. If a round gets stuck between the bolt and the feed spoon on the 870, the ONLY way to correct that jam is to disassemble the shotgun (see the following for the exception). This is the flaw 870 owners don't like to talk about, 'cause when it happens you're totally screwed. There is a way of dealing with this issue - cut a slot in the feed spoon so that you can push the stuck round back into the magazine using some sort of tool for that purpose (a key, a screwdriver, etc.) that one would need to have on hand when necessary AND practice doing this before the need arises. Wilson Combat Arms makes this modification to their 870s.
To be clear, I wasn't saying that an 870 is an infallible, 100% jam free weapon. Nothing is. Although I haven't experienced the stoppage you mentioned I'm sure it happens. I just believe that you would have difficulty finding a much more reliable repeating weapon. The fact that it is relatively inexpensive doesn't hurt either.

MKS | 03-19-2007 11:06 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U I haven't shot a lot of different shotguns, but I have put a couple thousand rounds through my 870 without fail. My only problem is the cheap shells I buy. Every once in a while I seem to get a bad batch and they stick in the chamber. It seems the brass/metal portion of the shell expands and makes it stick in the chamber. Recoil is not bad either, I need rocks in my pockets to weigh 150lbs and usually shoot over 100 rounds when I shoot clays, and am never sore. However, I do wear a hunting vest with a thin pad on the shoulder. Mike

hoarder | 03-19-2007 11:13 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U Quote:
Originally Posted by MKS (Post 544896) Every once in a while I seem to get a bad batch and they stick in the chamber.
Maybe your chamber has some rough machine marks and the thinner shells conform to those imperfections and make them stick.

MKS | 03-19-2007 11:22 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 544902) Maybe your chamber has some rough machine marks and the thinner shells conform to those imperfections and make them stick.
I don't think so Hoarder, I was shooting with a friend during one of those bad batches and loaded some of his shells in my gun and they worked fine. Just got a bad batch I think. When they go on sale for 2.60 a box, I get em by the case. The new Bass pro by me had a sale on remington shells with a 2 case limit. I couldn't get there til after work and they had so many left they canceled the limit. I filled up a shopping cart with them. By the way, the shells I had problems with were winchester. Still buy them when they are on sale though.

hoarder | 03-19-2007 11:32 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U MKS, I'll relate an experience with a handgun. An old Spanish 1911 I had cycled fine until I tried shooting some CCI Blazer aluminum cased ammo and it failed to extract about every third round. I switched back to brass cased ammo and it cycled fine. What happened is that since the aluminum is softer than brass, the cases filled out some of the machine marks in the rough chamber and made it hold. If one brand of ammo does not extract and other brands work fine I would guess that the one that doesn't extract has thinner brass that conforms to chamber irregularites. A gunsmith could polish it out if that's the case. But I'm not a gunsmith.

MKS | 03-19-2007 11:37 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 544928) MKS, I'll relate an experience with a handgun. An old Spanish 1911 I had cycled fine until I tried shooting some CCI Blazer aluminum cased ammo and it failed to extract about every third round. I switched back to brass cased ammo and it cycled fine. What happened is that since the aluminum is softer than brass, the cases filled out some of the machine marks in the rough chamber and made it hold. If one brand of ammo does not extract and other brands work fine I would guess that the one that doesn't extract has thinner brass that conforms to chamber irregularites. A gunsmith could polish it out if that's the case. But I'm not a gunsmith.
Well, that's worth looking into, thanks Hoarder

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TUMS | 03-20-2007 12:31 AM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U I just bought a Benelli m4 w/collapsible stock about a month ago. Paid $1300 + another $300 for the stock. (you can't get the collapsible stock now - only LEO and Military) I've shot about a hundred rounds so far of some old 00 buck Winchester i've had lying around for years. No jams. No cycling problems. If you decide to go with semi auto, get a Benelli. You won't regret it. If you go with the m4, it is supposed to cycle low recoil rounds better than the older benelli's.

Ghost Recon | 03-20-2007 02:33 AM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U Quote:
Originally Posted by gunner (Post 544561) www.knoxx.com http://www.cabelas.com/prod-1/0012785224733a.shtml <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=380 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=3>http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/images/widetab.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD align=left width=1 bgColor=#000000>http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/im...ack-spacer.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top width=378><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=365 align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=normal vAlign=top align=right>With over 4" of adjustment, these adjustable stocks can be made to fit a shotgun to any shooter; and with Knoxx's patented recoil reduction system, felt recoil is reduced as much as 95%. The combination of superior fit and recoil reduction results in maximized accuracy, reduced muzzle flip and quick follow-up shots when needed. The NRS (No Recoil Suppression) model does not include the Knoxx recoil suppression system, and brings adjustable length-of-pull to your pump shotgun at a bargain price. It can be quickly and easily adjusted from 11-1/4" to 15-1/2". Polymer construction. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/co...24733sn01d.jpg
After reading the reviews, I'm going to order this product. Combined with the low recoil shells, J in AZ mentioned, my problem should be solved...

Anty Ep | 03-20-2007 10:05 AM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U Quote:
Originally Posted by J in AZ (Post 544979) I would suggest you try high energy low recoil shells before anything else. I use the Federal law enforcement 00 buckshot. The reduction in recoil is significant. At the website below click on 12 gauge at the top of the page to see what I use. www.ammoman.com/index.htm
cool! how's that guy's prices compare? I havent bought any ammo in years-- still shooting off the gigantic cache I accumulated back when the black helicopters were buzzing me every day. LOL j/k

Abouthadit | 03-20-2007 10:16 AM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U Here is a good deal on 12 ga 00 buckshot. http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog/pr...roducts_id=559

Anty Ep | 03-20-2007 10:36 AM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U at the three gun matches I've been to, damn near everybody had a benelli. except me. lol. I used mossberg 590. I didnt ever win that phase nor was I ever the slowest. I'm probably better sg shooter than the other guys most of whom are regular handgun competitors so they're weaker on long guns. I dont have time to get out there every damn weekend. anyhow the benelli is obviously the favorite. but I tell you, it seems long and finicky. or maybe just looks too fancy. I like the 590, it has brutal appearance, has great handling characteristics, and would be good for buttstroking if necessary.

hoarder | 03-20-2007 10:50 AM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 545361) has great handling characteristics, and would be good for buttstroking if necessary.
I thought that was something one did with the opposite sex, not shotguns. I know, I know. I love my guns too.

Anty Ep | 03-20-2007 11:31 AM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 545385) I thought that was something one did with the opposite sex, not shotguns. I know, I know. I love my guns too.
this is my rifle this is my gun this is for killing this is for fun

hoarder | 03-20-2007 01:35 PM
Re: Shotgun question 4 U Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 545430) this is my rifle this is my gun this is for killing this is for fun
You made my lunch get stuck in my sinuses.

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