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koyaanisqatsi | 04-18-2006 03:34 PM
My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies Long-Term Bug-Out-Bag (BOB).... CONTENTS Shelter (2) Mylar Space Blankets 2-man Eureka Mountain Tent 6lbs, aluminum poles, floor and rain fly, 4-season GI Foam Mattress 2’ x 6.5’ 20 degree Kelty Holo-fil Mummy sleeping bag 2 medium garbage bags 10lbs Total Clothes Tennis shoes, Hooded GorTex Jacket, sweater liner, seasonal selection Long Johns or shorts, seasonal 6 pr Socks, 4 pr Underwear and 3 T-shirts, seasonal Cotton camo work gloves Camo BDU Clothes , camo face paint Change of standard clothes Camo Cap and Boonie Hat Combined weight is approximately 5lbs Light and Heat and Cooking 3-LED 2 ’AAA’ headlamp, 1-LED w/1’AAA cell Mini Flashlight, (use 30hours/battery set each) Mini-Mag double ‘AA‘ long-range halogen focus beam 12 ‘AAA’ and 8 ‘AA’ Alkaline Batteries Tea Candles, (3), 2’ piece of tin foil USCG approved boating Pencil Flare, (1) Alcohol Soda Can stove with 8oz bottle of pure Ethanol fuel (Time to boil 4 cups or 1 quart: ~12 minutes on <3 tablespoons or 1.5oz of fuel) 1.5liter Stainless pot and lid, SS cup, fork and spoon, Liquid soap 4 oz, 2” sq plastic scouring pad 2 regular and 5 Mini-Bic Lighters Paraffin Soaked 36” Jute String for quick Fire Tinder, 8” of gunpowder cannon fuse, 50 string-snap-firecrackers for perimeter guards Combined 1.5 lbs Health l-lb First Aid Kit and US Army Special Forces Ranger Medical Guide (2) 1oz bottles of Iodine, 1oz tube Neosporin, DEET 4oz bottle, (plus Ethyl Alcohol fuel above) (30) asst. Band-aids, (3) Gauze pads and Tape, (20) Pepto-Bismol tablets, (100) Aspirin, 20 Advil tablets, Digital Thermometer, 2” Ace Bandage, Moleskin, (40) Antihistamine decongestant tablets, (20) adhesive butterfly wound closires, (10) garlic pills, (25) vitamin C, (60) Anti-Radiation KIO3 Thyroid Pills, (6 packs) size 4-0 or 5-0 nylon or absorbable sutures, and needle holder, scalpel w/(6) asst. blades, 3 1/2” hemostats, iris and debradement scissors, (4) Face masks and (3pr) Latex gloves, (2) ½ oz Anbesol 20% Benzocaine topical Anesthetic, Cutter Snake Bite kit, 40 Q-tips, 6 cotton balls 12 small 20-sheet packs of Kleenex for TP (240 sheets @ 4/day = 60 days supply?) Toothbrushes (2), 6oz Baking Soda in a pill bottle, 200yds dental floss waxed, dental mirror Plastic disposable Razors (4), tweezers, nail clippers, washcloth, small magnifying glass and shaving mirror combo nylon net bug mask, Sunscreen 1oz tube, SPF-15 Chap-stick 2 tubes SPARE GLASSES, BIRTH CERTIFICATE, Driver‘s License, SS card, $150 cash, (2) 1/10oz Gold Eagle coins (or more) Combined 2.5lbs Nutrition Peterson’s Wild Edible Plants Field Guide is 8oz (3) GI can-openers 1/10th oz, (100) multivitamins, instant Coffee packs (20) (until I am weaned) Portable RATION PER DAY Power Bar is 2.29 oz @ 230 calories = 100 cal/oz with (10 gr protein) (45gr carb) 14 Power Bars 2 Nature Valley Granola Bars is 1.5 oz @ 180 calories = 120 cal/oz with (4gr protein) (29gr carbs) 14 packs (2 bars ea.) Granola Lance Peanut Bar is 2.23 oz @ 340 calories = 152 cal/oz with (13gr protein) (29gr carb) 14 Lance peanut Bar 3 Slim Jims is 1.0 oz @ 150 calories 150 cal/oz with (6gr protien) (13gr fat) 42 Slim Jims sticks 1 Pack Lance Peanuts is 1.12oz @ 200 calories is 177 cal/oz with (9gr protein) (15gr fat) 14 packs lance Peanuts 1 pack Orange Flavored drink powder w/1700% Vitamin C+B per 20oz water bottle 25 calories 0.3oz ea. 20 Packs Orange Flavor Drink (10) serving pks each table salt and pepper (from fast food joints) TOTAL = 8.44 ounces each day = 1125 calories per day Food efficiency = 133.2 cal/oz avg Ration/DAY = 4 meals/day daily ration x 14 days= 118 ounces = 7.38lbs of food requiring NO COOKING, no FIRE or FUEL, no TIME OR CLEANUP One site says, I’d need at least 3,445 calories to maintain my current weight and active level and body weight.. Of this, 1,640 calories are required to meet my body's most basic energy needs. That amount (my resting energy expenditure) is what I'd use up if I did nothing but lie in bed all day. Another site says, Male, Age 51, 6’ tall, 170lbs -- To maintain my own current body weight with my mdoerately active metabolosm level -- I’d need 2,209 calories each day. Sedentary Activity requires 1,842 calories/day to maintain my body weight. Extremely Active = 2,945 calorie/day needs So I would be weak and foggy, and I would lose weight -- until I could augment this minimal ration with other procured foods. My situation would be far from STARVING. -- All combined is 8.2 lbs for maximum of 14 days @ 1125 cals/day, or 50% calorie need/day ration Water Water Bottles, (3) 1.0 liter* (others can be salvaged as needed easily) Clorox, 8oz bottle, eye dropper (good for sterilizing 288 gallons of water for 1year @16 drops/gal) (one ounce Clorox = 600 drops for 150 quarts) 30 Iodine Water purification tablets (for 30 liters) Condoms, (6) can be used as expandible water bladders inside a sock PUR Scout pump filter (for 200 gallons) Combined weight 6lbs * with full water supply Tools and Implements 200 ft 3/8” Nylon 7-strand US Army Parachute Cord in green or desert camo (550-lb test for deer snares) Diamond Sharpening stone, Sewing Awl w/bobbin, assorted Needles and threads, 12 Safety Pins, safety razor blades (2) Map Compass, Ball Point pen, small pad of paper, appropriate MAPS, small loud whistle Leatherman Tool, wire saw, Hacksaw Blade and Basic Lock Pick 3-piece set, 4” blade SS Sheath Knife, finger nail clippers 250’ 26ga green florist’s wire and 20 swivels (trip-wire or small game snare-wire) (100yds) 8lb Monofilament, (60) Fish hooks, (30) BB split shot, swivels, 60lb test sail cord (60’) Combined weight is 3 lbs Defense and Hunting Tool Browning Buckmark .22 automatic, w/ 5.5” Bull Barrel & adjustable sights, with (5) ten-round magazines Ammunition: 150 CCI Velocitor Hi Vel HP, 150 Rem Subsonic HP, 40 Mini-Mag round nose, 10 snake shot - (for 350 rounds total) (a soda bottle over the muzzle can quiet noise, this I have read) Nylon Shoulder Holster w/ Magazine carrier pockets Combined 3.5 lbs Information Gathering Midland 4-watt Handheld CB Radio and 9 ‘AA’ Alkaline Batteries AM-FM-Short Wave Grundig Radio w/ 3 ‘AA‘ Batteries, integral Light, earphone buds, and a Hand-Crank Generator Small 12x25mm Tasco camo Binoculars and nylon pouch Elf-1 9oz Generation 1 Night vision*** monocular with (8) ‘AAA’ batteries for 40hours, nylon pouch Combined 3.4 lbs 43.1 Pounds = Total Weight (w/ full load of water and food ) To be carried inside a 3 lb NATO Military Internal Frame large Backpack in Woodland Camouflage Fleck color, with GorTex Hiking Boots This backpack total is 27% of my body weight and considered just about maximum for hiking with any level of mobility… -------------------------------------------- Options for Additional Needs or Contingency Substitution 25 oz - Makarov Automatic Pistol w/ Holsters and (6) 8-rnd magazines 120 rounds of 9mm Makarov (40 ea of 115gr HP, 95 gr HP, 100 gr FMJ, for 120 rounds total) Taurus 101 .40 cal 35oz, with (5) 12-round magazines, Bianchi Shoulder holster, with 67 HP and 33 FMJ bullets for 100 rounds total. 7- lb Mossberg Pump Shotgun w/ 18.5” barrel and Rifle sights, Tac Light, Shoulder Strap 60 rounds of 12 ga. (20 #1 and #00 Buckshot, 15 #6 Birdshot, and 25 Brenneke 1-oz Rifled Slugs), 11-lbs AK-47 with (2) 30 round banana mags and 120 steel core or FMJ, 60 soft point ammo, 4X Illumined reticle quick- detach scope, folding stock camo, nylon sling... 11lbs Army US PASGT Level II+ Ballistic Vest, 10.5lbs (stops most pistol ammo) British MK-6 Kevlar Helmet, Knee/Elbow Pads, camo 2lbs (stops pistol ammo) Camouflage mesh netting, camo tarp, 8x10 feet each. 3lbs Stun Baton w/ (4) 9v Batteries and holster, 1lb Night Vision optional attachment 4x magnifier lens and long range IR Illuminator 1lb Motorola Sport 10X long range Walkie Talkies 2 watts 10 channels good for 15hrs Russian ‘AA’ battery Geiger Counter 9oz runs 100+hrs on batteries Israeli Army Gas Mask and (3 to 5) N-B-C type NATO filters Army Entrenchment Tool or 18” blade Machete, Aspen Hiking Stick, Marine Band Harmonica Additional Layers seasonal clothing, Extra Dried Food and/or extra alcohol fuel Colloidal Silver Generator, 12oz glass jar, and (3) 9v batteries, 1 lb Various Books: Trapper's Bible, Knots Book, SAS Army Wilderness Survival Manual, USMC Close Combat, US Road Atlas Any additional options shown above -- are to be carried in my 2nd external framed backpack and hidden as a temporary cache for later retrieval. Any smaller Bug-Out-Bag could quickly be pulled from the first bag contents. ------------------------ Once there once was an age of great extinction. Mighty dinosaurs quickly vanished from the land they had long dominated. Lowly bugs and rats however, they survived and flourished. I am but a bug. I am but a rat. I do not wish to become a dinosaur. :cool2: ~Koy :rolleyes: ------------------------ I have edited a bit for clarity and to provide these images of a recent population explosion as a footnote**... http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ult.../WorldBank.gif . http://dieoff.org/Crash1.GIF ------------------------ :driver: Our survival mechanisms today are complex and multi-dependent. It is like a ship built with one huge compartment. A breech anywhere, and the whole ship goes down, helpless. That is the USA today, so highly evolved. It is like an animal with a complex nervous and circulatory system. :captain: A wise mariner demands a ship with many small compartments. A hole anywhere, and surely some few compartments are lost. But the other ship's compartments lock down hatches and seal out the rushing waters. That is proper Civil Defense, decentralized as much as possible. It is like a sponge, decentralized. Each piece cut away can survive alone. :smokin: :turtle: I wish to become a self-sealing compartment of this huge ship. Let me be but a piece of a sponge, on this ship lead by fools. Durable and able to survive as my own life boat if needed. ~Koy ------------------------------ ***Note that all my electronics remain for now stored inside EMP-shielded inside Faraday Boxes. It is reasonable to assume long term power blackouts will be present, but with EMP effects, we would lose electronics as well. Electronics remaining usable would be priceless. See my old thread maybe... http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...omagnetic+bomb **Note that I do not own or possess any of the above items, it is a hypothetical wish list only for discussion purposes here. Also -- I am a harmless peaceful gentle loving man. I am only playing. http://www.bigcatrescue.org/images/b...owLeopardC.jpg Snow leopards are very opportunistic hunters capable of killing prey up to 3 times their own weight. Their most common prey sources are: wild sheep and goats; pikas; hares; game birds. They kill on the average of 1 large prey item every 10-15 days and stay with the kill for 3-4 days. Status: There are believed to be 5000 to 7500 of these great cats left in the wild and 476 in captivity. There are only 28 of these cats paired in approved SSP breeding programs. It can’t purr like the small cats and it can’t roar like the true great cats. It makes a happy sound similar to the tiger's chuffing… http://www.kessels.com/CatSounds/cat4.wav :hahaha: ~Koy

hoarder | 04-18-2006 04:33 PM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies Best list of it's kind I've seen. Thanks for taking the time to post, Koy. I haven't heard of using condoms as emergency water storage, but would caution to use ones that don't have spermicide. I assume the Remington subsonic hollowpoints are not intended to cycle in the Buckmark. How do you wear the shoulder holster when carrying the pack? I never thought about a handheld CB, but that makes sense since there would be some useful chatter after a nuclear attack or some sort of fake terrorist attack, more valuable than the shortwave, IMO. At least you could communicate with strangers without disclosing your location. I'm printing out this list for future reference. Have you given any thought to the lightweight aluminum barrels for Buckmarks and Mark II's? http://www.tacticalsol.com/

money matters | 04-18-2006 11:45 PM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies Hey guys, Where ya buggin out from???? Are you going out your backyard gate with that "load" or leaving your car at a trailhead or in some storage yard in a small town? Backpacks make great organizing tools, and ways to transport stuff for every family member, B U T.... Think about this: Are you going Out on Patrol or making your way to a destination? That 43lb pack is nothing! If you go with a decent Kelty External Frame rig, you can double the weight. More weight means more essential tools and food. Of course, if you see yourself going "On Patrol", you are just playing Rambo and will likely get killed. Then again, if you are going to a destination. You can do it in several "legs". Backpacks are super for transport, BUT, they don't beat a bicycle. The VietCong transported hundreds of lbs of supplies down the Ho Chi Minh Trail, using bicycles. They walked the bike with the bulk of the load on the bike frame. External Frame packs can be fastened to a bike frame with screw fasteners or ropes. You ever get out in the field and prove your gear? I think you'd do better to carry a nylon fly rather than a tent. Of course, if you already own gear, you want to be able to keep it with you. Have you thought about caching stuff? Even if it is just stored in a storage site near where you want to be. If you have a mountain bike, you are halfway to a better tomorrow. Likely, you can find one in a pawn shop or a thrift store fairly cheap that will do the job. Even a special at Walmart or Target will do the trick. I think I would foget about nightvision and gadgets. Get some real binoculars! Steiners, Pentax, Fujinon, Leitz, or other quality optic name. Get 40mm objectives in 7 or 8 power. A real spotting scope too would be a wise investment. if you are going to blow money on night vision, you'd better buy quality; and it costs around $750 used. I would also forget about makarov pistols. You will never find replacement ammunition or parts for them. A compact .22lr pistol and a .357 mag Marlin lever action will do the job in deer country. The .357 in a 20" barreled rifle is very versatile, hard hitting, and carries about 9 ctgs ready to fire. They are durable. Use it with a Williams receiver peep sight and you will get hits. Put a 4x Leupold on it if you prefer. Get a Lee loader or a Lyman 310 set and you will be able to reload your cases. For about $100 you could reload about 1,000 rounds of .357 You will need real tools for survival. A real axe. A good heavy duty bowie size knife, and a Leatherman, and a filet or boning knife. A diamond hone will keep your tools sharp. A folding shovel like the East German tool will work. full size tools are better. A file and a punch can help you make other tools. A sewing kit and grommet kit, too. Lots more rope and cordage. Lots of matches! A good firemaking kit. An old van or camper that you rebuild for reliability would be a nice cover for "vacationing" at or near your jumping off point. It would also hold a lot of gear and tools. You might even consider archery eqpt if you are trying to survive in a populated rural area. Easier to poach if you kill in silence. You might give some thought to having a few 1/8 or 1/16 cable snares. Easier to hunt when you have 15 or so "hunters" out there working for you. A trotline for fishing is the same way, set lines work well too. You might make a fish trap. A cast-net will take minnows, bass and bream out of stock tanks or farm ponds. You really better know the area you plan to enter. Doing anything on foot in perilous times is pretty whimsical. I do wish you luck and blessings.

Ponce Cuba | 04-19-2006 12:18 AM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies A very simple item that no ones mentions and even here at home I use it all the time is hot glue......you can fix shoes, tent, canteen, back pack and as many other things .

TheKingsSon | 04-19-2006 12:31 AM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies Quote:
Originally Posted by koyaanisqatsi Long-Term Bug-Out-Bag (BOB).... CONTENTS
What supplies like that, it seems like you can't wait to go :rofl:

drafter | 04-19-2006 12:09 PM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies My list is similar but I would agree that the makarov probably isn't a real good bugout choice though I do have an EG one and love it. For my everyday duffle I carry an AR-7 .22 (some people hate them, I like mine) and a 9mm pistol. Both are compact and easy to feed.

TheSimpleton | 04-19-2006 12:18 PM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies You're way ahead of me, MM. If you're a refugee, you need a different load. If you're headed to a destination, you need a different load or method. Pre-caches and so on. That said, way too few razors. Soap and scours too. Need oil. Electronics are to be disposed when batteries fail? Or have solar charger? More crap to care for. CB, etc may be used, but technology moves so fast it may be encrypted or some other by the time it's used. Don't forget an EMP will fry them if not shielded. What is night vision for? As a heavy, fragile item, it better be really useful. What is aspirin for? I wouldn't carry it for headaches and heart attack prevention is the last you your worries if you live in a pack. They rattle, too. You're doubled up on a lot of items, string, lights, first aid, but this may be by design. I love the orange drink. Somewhere I've seen japanese? garden knives, they have a knife on one side, saw on the other, scooped blade inbetween, made for digging roots. Cheap and durable but good enough for all things. MM is there a good, light shovel? Almost seems a broken shovel-head would be lighter, cheaper, and better than the army-types. Speaking of ungettables, files will be in sudden demand and rust or wear, very useful, and are very hard to make. Good item to have ahead of time. ...But not to carry. What are you doing for water tank/storage? I'd think a good drybag/shower would be useful for several things. Good water is hard to find and easy to use. $4 at Walmart just for the crappo folders, $50 for a yuppie MSR or Rubber bag. Thinking about moving through situations is an high art. If you did a 2-week pretend run I bet you'd find a lot of stuff you'd want to change. But the basic question is, "what's the situation that gets you out the door with this bag?" Where are you going? Are you walking long enough to need needles and tools? If situations change can you change the bag before leaving or re-tune it in the field easily? If I were a refugee, I'd want to look too poor to rob. In wars, stuff is cheap, it's consumables that are dear. Thanks for posting. TS "You taught me people will do anything for a potato." -Empire of the Sun

falser | 04-19-2006 01:30 PM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies Quote:
Originally Posted by koyaanisqatsi 4 meals/day daily ration x 14 days
You mean the apocolypse is only going to last 2 weeks? Awe that's nothing, I can probably just weather that out at home.

Ponce Cuba | 04-19-2006 02:10 PM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies Very good guys I am proud of you, if you live in the city and everyone start running you must stay in place for at least two weeks before taking off for the country......unless is a nuke alert. When you take off be sure to have someone with a shoot gun with you and if you are pulling a trailer a way for someone to shoot out the back. The time to start planning is NOW, find a place where you think that you would like to go and start taking stuff NOW, either let someone that you trust keep it for you or find a hiding place, those 40 gallons red Greeks pickle barrels are great for doing that.

TheSimpleton | 04-19-2006 02:16 PM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies Where is Ponce planning on running to? TS

money matters | 04-19-2006 02:58 PM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies (You're no) Simpleton; The East German folding shovels are high quality. Don't know of any that are "light", (maybe an aluminum snow shovel?), but the EG tool is quality steel and has a folding pick blade, and a replaceable (maybe adaptable) handle. Cold Steel supposedly makes the Special Forces Shovel which is well regarded. You might get more use out of a Mattock, and your idea of a shovel head is very sound just have a way to bolt a limb or sappling to serve as a handle. Digging is pretty basically important. A dug-out house will be insulated by its earth berming, and be faster to erect, too. It is "Proofed" against much that you might encounter. A sod roof will work if you build it right. If you are bugging out with a trailer, consider adding some aluminum or steel roofing panels to the your load. Anyway you can get some durable roofing material to the outback, you will be ahead of the game. Some of those durable decking screws will be worth their weight in gold. A Paslode propane powered utility nailer with some spare cylinders and a box of 3.5" nails would enable you to build just about anything very rapidly. The big Spike nails could/might work for makeshift lookout platforms. Nice to have a cache of stuff as your Plan B.

Ponce Cuba | 04-19-2006 03:00 PM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimpleton Where is Ponce planning on running to? TS
Already did, from Anaheim Ca. to the woods of Oregon..... I am the type of a person that runs towards the train in order to get on it even before it stops.

RichG | 04-19-2006 03:13 PM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies koyaanisqatsi...nice job and nice planning. Way ahead of most.:smokin:

TheSimpleton | 04-20-2006 12:10 PM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies I remembered the location of that digging knife: http://garrettwade.com/shopping/sear...Search=digging Pulaski axe is a good alternative to a real mattox, which is dig-only: http://garrettwade.com/shopping/prod...oductID=106079 And you won't dig with it, (snow maybe) but it came up in a search: http://garrettwade.com/shopping/sear...sSearch=shovel The old standby, cheap: http://garrettwade.com/shopping/prod...oductID=106474 Unfortunately, they don't move much dirt either. I don't think you could dig your car out of snow with this before it drifted in again. Not necessarily recommending Garrett-Wade which can be pricy, but they happened to give me some hits. Also broad axes there, which are handy for squaring things in the woods, like dovetail logs. TS First, if you don't want a hole, don't start digging. Second, if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. If you really want a hole, get a backhoe.

TheSimpleton | 04-20-2006 12:14 PM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies Whoops, nice candle lantern, too. http://garrettwade.com/shopping/prod...oductID=107198 TS

falser | 04-20-2006 12:29 PM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimpleton Where is Ponce planning on running to?
Read or watch Stephen King's "The Stand".

money matters | 04-20-2006 01:25 PM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies I think the Primary Bug Out Bag consists of everything you can stuff into a vehicle and transit to where you are going. Best not to be a Refugee, but call it like it is; if you evacuate with nowhere to go, that's what you are. How much can your car/vehicle carry? Do you have a trailer? Maybe a storage stall somewhere near where you want to windup? I think ol' Koy is a nice fella; but it is not very realistic (although romantic) to think you can live out of your backpack and survive for more than a few weeks. ============================================== Just maybe, maybe, maybe; if you lived near a large wilderness area, you could pull this off, but not on only one 45 lb knapsack of gear. I backpacked a couple times into a large Wilderness area. In large National Forest areas of the West and Eastern US, you could likely park your car at a trailhead and make several trips in and out with backpacks full of gear. Take a mountain bike and use it for transport of your gear. Put gear racks over both wheels, and rig a framework in the center. You want to WALK that bike on trails until you get halfway close to where you will go off the trail. you could put 200 lbs on a bike, I would wager. Daypacks on either side of each wheel and on top of the rack for a total of 6 packs; and then 2 larger frame backpacks attached to the center bar of the frame. Not likely to be a cakewalk, but people do similar deals with bicycle pannier packs all the time. Why spend $700 on those specialized packs when you can use daypacks and have them to use for other things? Eric Rudolph is the poster-boy of bugout mentality. He supposedly lived on the edge of small towns and foraged through garbage cans and dumpsters at night. Living like that is "living", but preparing with more would be prudent. Right now, the BugOut planners ought to be building some kind of hidey-hole that is ready to accomodate them. Maybe just get a piece of driveway drainpipe and bury it some where. Lots of people think GoreTex Bivouac Tents are a good long term plan for shelter. An earth-insulated spider hole would be warm and hidden. Having some place to "go" just seems more prudent. Taking everything you think you might ever be able to use would be desirable.

TheSimpleton | 04-20-2006 02:57 PM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies We'll have to hear from Koy but I would bet that his pack is part of a plan if I'm not mistaken. I believe he's spoken of wilderness areas. Two problems with wilderness: one is that it's wilderness for a reason: no food/lousy soil/bad weather. Two is that if people are bugging, I guarantee it won't be a wilderness for long; anyone who visits it will be thinking "gosh, if anything ever happens, I'll just go to that abandonded Prov/State/Natl park." Then whoever is meanest and most armed becomes the local bandito. No doubt you can stay completely unknown if you accept an incredible level of hardship and fortitude: no fires, ascetic starvation, etc., but you have to know that's what you want and mean to do. I mean, John the Baptist did it, but I think the transition would be much harder than anyone thinks and the temptation to see others would be purpetually overwhelming. One way to think of it is like it being "Cold Mountain" every day of the year for 10 years. There is no place to go others won't be fleeing to as well. Civilization is a reality and you should conjoin with it in ways that are most practicable for your situation and personality. Besides, if you have skills, it's unchristian to let others suffer around you without helping them. ...Just some idle thoughts in these times of leisure and plenty. TS

Anty Ep | 04-20-2006 04:13 PM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies my bugout bag is simple, it's my passport, a wad of federal reserve notes, a shank and a piece. LOL

koyaanisqatsi | 04-28-2006 02:17 AM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies Consider that all this is hypothetical, but yes, a Bug-Out-Bag is high art in survival. Many consider basic home-steading techniques and stored rations as definitive survival. It is a matter of degree and I find hoarding and preparing to live off the grid at home rather pass�, but of course certainly I do that too. This is a forum for 'savers' who rely on saved 'stuff' to sustain them. I am not arguing or belittling anyone here, I am just trying to shed light on the situation and utility of a BOB as I see it. We are all learning things, at least I continue to hope we are. And many of you just cannot ‘Bug-Out’ due to limiting state of health, or children or other fixed obligations. In fact my first tendency and obligation would be to assist my elderly parents. Or -- Maybe you live in a desert area, very difficult to 'live off the land' there... But I think this is all good information nonetheless. I hope you find this information below helpful in some way. My words on this post will be in dark brown, except where quoted from old GIM posts as noted below: Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder Best list of it's kind I've seen. Thanks for taking the time to post, Koy. I haven't heard of using condoms as emergency water storage, but would caution to use ones that don't have spermicide. I assume the Remington subsonic hollow points are not intended to cycle in the Buckmark. How do you wear the shoulder holster when carrying the pack? I never thought about a handheld CB, but that makes sense since there would be some useful chatter after a nuclear attack or some sort of fake terrorist attack, more valuable than the short-wave, IMO. At least you could communicate with strangers without disclosing your location. I'm printing out this list for future reference. Have you given any thought to the lightweight aluminum barrels for Buckmarks and Mark II's? http://www.tacticalsol.com/
Thank you, Hoarder. These Trojan condoms have a water based lubricant only, typically glycerin based, with no spermicide. I find no warnings on the box about caution regarding oral ingestion of lubricant. It would be easy to take a moment at streamside to flush it out. And they are so light in foil pouches, I may take a few extra for ‘contingency use’. But I often find no women ALONE in the woods during my outdoor exploits thus far. Oh well… I can dream… but I do not want to deliver a baby -- until this BOB stuff is finished. http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg:cheerful: http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/clips...494741-8221732 http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/clips...494741-8221732 Those condoms will be good for water bladders. I’ll get the Trojan MAGNUM size. I might get thirsty. The dinky .22 is just my primary chosen pistol caliber. Condoms and empty water bottles are also for flotation on my body as a PFD, or my pack while swimming using a life-saving stroke across a good-sized lake or river. Seal them inside socks with the laces made from the outer Parachute cord cover. Lace to belt and cover with a jacket. Deer and dogs can ford water like this, why not me, all with my gear intact? If it’s not too cold, I can do it. http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c..._1894_95376883 MIDLAND 75-785 7-Watt/40-Channel Portable CB Radio In general standard max-power 4 watt CB’s have a talk range of 1 to 5 miles, depending upon terrain. There are still millions of these in use in the USA today. Truckers and travelers on the CB speak frankly about what they have seen in their travels. This could be a good reliable source of information to monitor, especially local, aside from broadcast AM-FM-SW. Examples -- Are there road blocks or barricades up ahead? Are they arresting people for being dissidents and not complying with ‘martial law’? Are the FEMA camps operational? Are people starving or sick with plague? Tanks in the streets? -- So on and on, the low-down truth can be found with a CB. And who knows, I may be able to hitch a ride by using some sweet talking along a rural highway… or co-ordinate with a partner who has a CB himself. Many uses for the good old CB in TEOTWAWKI or when TSHTF! My modern Midland handheld CB weighs just 9oz w/o batteries. My CB can even recharge batteries -- inside the unit -- by flipping a switch and then hooking the cigarette lighter jack into a car battery. I have a magnetic mount optional ‘rubber duck’ antenna which immensely increases the range while inside a car . http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/cl...log/75-785.pdf http://www.browning.com/products/cat...es/051396s.jpg . http://www.uncle-mikes.com/adtemplat...catky2=2000014 http://www.browning.com/products/cat...51&type_id=396 http://www.outdooroutlet.com/pimages...ighorncamo.jpg While using the Uncle Mike’s shoulder holster and a backpack, I unsnap the 3” belt loop fastener on the lower part of the holster. In this way I remove it from my pants belt where it is normally snapped onto. I put on the backpack and settle it on my shoulders then. I attach my holster snap loop over the 1” strap which is on the outside of my pack’s padded belt. I fasten and snug the padded waist support belt to secure the load to my body. If I need to remove and ditch the backpack right away, I just pull the loop snap under the holster to free the holster from the padded waist belt and drop the pack. As soon as convenient attach the holster once again to my pants belt properly. I usually do not fasten the over-hammer buckle on the holster and the slim pistol slips up and out easily and naturally. The soft holster ‘molds’ to the gun. It rides under my armpit, away from the over-shoulder padded straps. I works much better than a hip holster with a backpack, and keeps it out of the weather, or maybe if I ever wish, out of sight. On the harness side opposing the gun, I have a double magazine pouch. A cross-draw is natural and a hip holster will not work under a padded hip belt. (My Bianchi leather shoulder holster for the .40 cal works the same way, but it holds the gun horizontally) I have a camo lowslung thigh-strap belt holster for the .40, but I do not like the way it bounces around on my leg at anything other than a strolling pace. I find it a poor second choice with a backpack. No need for it at all, IMO. BTW: For practice drawing a shoulder-holstered pistol… I load a FIRED cartridge case in the chamber and holster the gun, safety on and cocked, or safety off and uncocked, depending on which pistol. (the Buckmark .22 is single action, Mak and Taurus are double action autos) I stand in my living room about 6 feet behind a 6’ wide window facing a road 120‘ away. When a car first appears in one side of my window, averaging 35mph, I draw the pistol, pop the safety if needed (only on the Buckmark) line up the sights on the car’s center and ‘fire a shot‘. The empty cartridge is just to cushion the falling firing pin. I figure it now takes me about 1.25 seconds to draw and put a shot into that car’s center or equivalent. And I am now quite CONSISTENT and very reflexive. All my safeties work ‘thumb down to fire’, uniformly so I do not have to think at all, just to ACT, BTW. I have purchased a spare recoil spring and recoil buffer for my Buckmark, about the only parts known to wear out after maybe 10,000 rounds or so. My other 2 auto pistols are also very reliable, (99.9%+ no jams) and VERY unlikely to need smithing or spare parts for the next 1,000+ rounds. As for accuracy, the Challenge fit well with the other two good shooters from Browning by averaging right at 1 1/4 inches for five-shot groups at 25 yards. If accurate, precision shooting is your bag, these guns will get the job done. The 32gr CCI Stinger velocity is 1332 from a 5.5” bbl Buckmark. http://www.galleryofguns.com/shootin...cles.asp?ID=27 The biggest difference was in the trigger. The Ruger trigger was just OK. The Browning trigger was a delight. It required just a short, light press, which is what you want in a target pistol. Of the two, the Browning was our favorite by far. At just $309 for this mid-line model, it's a steal. http://www.lesjones.com/posts/000059.shtml Also excellent for larger varmints up to the size of woodchucks, fox, and coyotes is Velocitor™, the world's fastest 40 grain hollow point. At 1435 feet/sec in a rifle, 1130fps in a 6” pistol, Velocitor carries energy farther. The hollow point design, inspired by Speer� Gold Dot� pistol bullet technology, holds the bullet together for the deeper penetration needed for larger critters. Our Sub-sonic Hollow Point is loaded with a 40 grain bullet at a sub-sonic 1050 ft/sec in a rifle. http://cci-ammunition.com/default.as...1=6&s2=15&pg=3 My Buckmark has never jammed in 1,000 rounds thus far, firing ANY and ALL .22 long rifles cartridges, including even heavy 60-grain Aguilla SSS. I have never tested a magazine load of #12 shot shells. I may have to cycle them by hand I presume, but if I can shuck them manually and load another off the magazine underneath. I suspect the recoil from a 31 grain load of snake-shot is probably not enough to cycle the spring and action. They are primarily for rats, mice and snakes at very close range anyway. No big concern at all. IF I carry one shotshell in the chamber, and suddenly need a Velocitor slug instead, I can just pull the slide and cycle the meager .22 shot shell off and out quickly, unfired. I then have 10 quick 40gr HP bullets to my immediate avail... And sure, for defence, the .22 Long Rifle round is certainly not a superb 'man killer', but a hit with one might be a 'man stopper', so that he ceases advancing or fighting due to the sudden shock of the pain. And the 11-round capacity and (5) magazines mean I can deliver sustained suppression fire, using a whole box of .22 shells, to perhaps extract myself from a situation altogether as I sneak away to dense cover to escape. Regarding custom barrels for the Buckmark .22 auto, I am a traditionalist in style and I surely do like the original slab sided bull barrel my gun is equipped with. The hefty barrel keeps my off-hand aim steadier. The fiber-optic sights work in dim light. My .22 auto pistol is in any case always more accurate than me, that’s for sure. But Hoarder, these custom barrels are cool -- if I had a big budget, and if they came in flat drab colors. Also nice would be cool titanium cooking pots, etc, but for the BUDGET. http://www.gunblast.com/images/Tacti...s/MVC-016F.jpg . http://www.gunblast.com/images/Tacti...s/MVC-015F.jpg http://www.gunblast.com/TacticalSolutions-BuckMark.htm --------------------------------- Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters Hey guys, Where ya buggin out from???? Are you going out your backyard gate with that "load" or leaving your car at a trailhead or in some storage yard in a small town? Backpacks make great organizing tools, and ways to transport stuff for every family member, B U T.... Think about this: Are you going Out on Patrol or making your way to a destination? That 43lb pack is nothing! If you go with a decent Kelty External Frame rig, you can double the weight. More weight means more essential tools and food. Of course, if you see yourself going "On Patrol", you are just playing Rambo and will likely get killed. Then again, if you are going to a destination. You can do it in several "legs". Backpacks are super for transport, BUT, they don't beat a bicycle. The VietCong transported hundreds of lbs of supplies down the Ho Chi Minh Trail, using bicycles. They walked the bike with the bulk of the load on the bike frame. External Frame packs can be fastened to a bike frame with screw fasteners or ropes. You ever get out in the field and prove your gear? I think you'd do better to carry a nylon fly rather than a tent. Of course, if you already own gear, you want to be able to keep it with you. Have you thought about caching stuff? Even if it is just stored in a storage site near where you want to be. If you have a mountain bike, you are halfway to a better tomorrow. Likely, you can find one in a pawn shop or a thrift store fairly cheap that will do the job. Even a special at Walmart or Target will do the trick. I think I would forget about nightvision and gadgets. Get some real binoculars! Steiners, Pentax, Fujinon, Leitz, or other quality optic name. Get 40mm objectives in 7 or 8 power. A real spotting scope too would be a wise investment. if you are going to blow money on night vision, you'd better buy quality; and it costs around $750 used. I would also forget about makarov pistols. You will never find replacement ammunition or parts for them. A compact .22lr pistol and a .357 mag Marlin lever action will do the job in deer country. The .357 in a 20" barreled rifle is very versatile, hard hitting, and carries about 9 ctgs ready to fire. They are durable. Use it with a Williams receiver peep sight and you will get hits. Put a 4x Leupold on it if you prefer. Get a Lee loader or a Lyman 310 set and you will be able to reload your cases. For about $100 you could reload about 1,000 rounds of .357 You will need real tools for survival. A real axe. A good heavy duty bowie size knife, and a Leatherman, and a filet or boning knife. A diamond hone will keep your tools sharp. A folding shovel like the East German tool will work. full size tools are better. A file and a punch can help you make other tools. A sewing kit and grommet kit, too. Lots more rope and cordage. Lots of matches! A good firemaking kit. An old van or camper that you rebuild for reliability would be a nice cover for "vacationing" at or near your jumping off point. It would also hold a lot of gear and tools. You might even consider archery eqpt if you are trying to survive in a populated rural area. Easier to poach if you kill in silence. You might give some thought to having a few 1/8 or 1/16 cable snares. Easier to hunt when you have 15 or so "hunters" out there working for you. A trotline for fishing is the same way, set lines work well too. You might make a fish trap. A cast-net will take minnows, bass and bream out of stock tanks or farm ponds. You really better know the area you plan to enter. Doing anything on foot in perilous times is pretty whimsical. I do wish you luck and blessings.
Luck and blessings to you too, MoneyMatters. We will all need luck. “Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.” ~Seneca quotes (Roman philosopher, mid-1st century AD) Or rather, “Luck is a matter of preparation meeting opportunity.” ~Oprah Winfrey quotes (American TV personality,Actress and Producer, b.1954) I have a Camp Trails external frame pack and I love it. But for a primary bug out bag I want an internal frame pack. Internal frame packs hold the load low for a lower center of gravity, better clearance under tree branches, and snugs close to my back for agility. External frame packs are best for open trails with little scrambling. I believe if you research you will see that my feeling is very common on the two primary designs. I said I include a sewing kit and even an awl for heavy stitching. Instead of grommets, as on a tarp, I tie a pebble inside a corner or fold of the material, and then tie-off lashings on that. But I have only one optional tarp, camo and almost new, and it has plenty of grommets already. http://www.m4040.com/Survival/Skills...arp-Anchor.gif Matches are less efficient and convenient than BIC lighters and I have 7 of them here in this BOB. I’ve used many paraffin-coated strike-anywhere matches in years past. Strike anywhere matches seemingly off the market now. What will you strike your many matches on? My paraffin-string fire starter saves the butane in lighting a fire. If it is cold the BIC can be warmed in the pocket, underarm or crotch. I have built a fire using a crude bow drill, difficult but with practice no problem. With the magnifying glass by a sunny day I could start the �” section of paraffin/jute string quickly. ---------------------- Carrying an extra pound or two in one's pack can be a big deal for a lot of ultralighters. But if one is 20 pounds overweight, obsessing over that extra bit of gear while ignoring the body weight issue seems pretty silly to me. Even if a backpacker were given a choice between carrying 20 extra pounds of equipment and 20 extra pounds of fat, I suspect that few physicians, when viewing the proposition from a health point of view, would consider it to be an even trade. I would therefore propose to anyone who backpacks and seeks to improve efficiency that unless you happen to already be at an optimal body weight, you'd probably be best served by spending at least as much time focusing on reducing body weight as you do on reducing pack weight. The daily calorie burn of a reasonably lean, fit hiker carrying a lightweight pack might be "only" 4,000 calories if covering say, 15 miles a day. In contrast, an overweight, less fit hiker carrying a conventional 35 to 45 pound pack might have required 10,000 calories or more to perform the same feat on any given day. http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/Weigh...ight_Loss.html My son, Colin, may be laughing in the photo, but his 55-pound pack was no joking matter after 8 days on the trail. A pack this heavy causes plenty of problems: Slow, tedious hiking; Exhaustion, irritability, and low esprit de corps on the trail; Increased chance of injury--sore back, sprained ankles, blown knees, sore muscles, bruised and blistered feet, sore hips and shoulders, etc.; Increased risk of poor foot placement and falls; The need for heavy boots (since weak ankles cannot effectively provide the necessary lateral support for heavy loads); Tired, cross people who make bad decisions, sometimes with serious consequences; Exhaustion upon arrival at camp for the night. How about an 18-pound pack for a weekend trip? A 25-pound pack for a one week trip? At these pack weights, backpacking feels more like day hiking. It's a freeing experience--trail miles melt away, and you can better appreciate the beauty of the hike. You can cover more miles and see more places or get into camp early, with plenty of time and energy to do almost anything. Lightweight backpackers can easily achieve a base pack weight of around 12 pounds (see Part 2: Equipment Primer for more details.) Adding around 1.75 pounds of food per day and some fuel, you will be carrying 25 pounds for a seven-day trip and 18 for a weekend. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...ght/00034.html The formula that one should not carry more than 20-25% of their body weight is a good starting point. This figure is used with one’s ideal body weight , and includes food and water. That 25 % would be considered maximum weight, including food and water. I don't think a definition for an " Ultralighter" has been agreed upon universally. I would suggest that a base weight (skin out) of under 10 pounds is definitely achievable for three season backpacking, and that winter and technical backpacking situations require more equipment. http://www.trailquest.net/ultralight.html --------------------- http://www.actiongear.com/agcatalog/...ord_Detail.jpg Military Camo Parachute Cord 550 7x7, is amazingly useful. It is 7 strands of 70lb test with a 60lb test braid over it. Pull the seven strands out of a segment of the braid and they themselves are each 2 strands of 35lb test. So 200 feet of parachute cord can potentially offer me 2,800 feet of 35lb test line if I need. It can be used to sew heavy cloth or leather with the sewing needle awl I carry. It works for dental floss, or securing and rigging small game spring pole wire snares. http://www.wilderness-survival.net/figures/fig8-7.gif http://www.wilderness-survival.net/food-2.php Or buy the book I recommended already... Trapper's Bible. And 35lb test inner line is good for making fish nets or gear nets. I worked on a shrimp boat in 1975 and I repaired nets frequently, using a combination bobbin needle (called a shuttle) that I could make easily of wood onsite. But forget a making a cast net as you suggest. These require several pounds of lead weights, I know from long experience catching bait in salt water. And cast nets work on smooth clean mud or sandy bottoms, not found around here. (unless it is casting a net into a 'farm pond', which can get me KILLED.) http://www.finniwig.com/images6/net1.jpg http://www.finniwig.com/netinst.htm On second thought I would include 20’ of 1/8” US Military bungee cord in drab green color. With that I could make 2” or 3” mesh bird net traps with a trigger specifically for grouse or wild turkeys , common tasty birds here. Military bungee cord could be used to secure gear against my pack, or even to make spear-gun-like devices to propel a primitive arrow point-blank, down a narrow in a curving path, used for a set-trap or guard against wild dogs, and triggered by a trip wire. (wild dogs??) Or I could even make my own cord of fibers in a real pinch… or a fixed razor blade can slice deer hide for shrinkable lacings in making primitive tools or even garments and bags… but that is a long day away if my clothes hold out… http://www.primitiveways.com/cordage.html http://www.btinternet.com/~mr.pentops/jar.jpg Fish traps from a large glass jar and funnel of screen wire or clear plastic catch minnows, small fish, crayfish and water snails in creeks. Also I could just use cut and inverted tops with 2-ltr soda bottles, etc. The tiny creek critters can be cooked in a variety of dishes. At fancy restaurants, we eat escargot, shrimp, oysters, lobster, anchovies, right? I have made many a meal of my fresh caught crayfish. I am over the conditioned ‘herd thinking‘, and this is all pretty good food. http://www.btinternet.com/~mr.pentops/fishtrap.html And if you plan to sleep in a car or RV, even a cabin, you are easy to locate and approach by night. Consider expert (US Armed Forces SERE training) advice… ------------ SERE Training... Once you have moved into the area in which you want to hide (hide area), select a hide site. Keep the following formula in mind when selecting a hide site: BLISS.:proud: B - Blends in with the surroundings. L - Low in silhouette. I - Irregular in shape. S - Small in size. S - Secluded. Avoid the use of existing buildings or shelters. Usually, your best option will be to crawl into the thickest vegetation you can find. If you add any additional camouflage material to the hide site, do not cut vegetation in the immediate area. Be careful not to disturb or cut any vegetation. Once you have occupied the hide site, limit your activities to maintaining security, resting, camouflaging, and planning your next moves. Survey a crossing site for at least 24 hours, depending on the enemy situation. Locate a fire site well away from the hide site. Use this site to prepare food or boil water. Camouflage and sterilize the fire site after each use. Be careful that smoke and light from the fire does not compromise the hole-up area. Get water from sources within the hide area. Be careful not to leave tracks of signs along the banks of water sources when getting water. Moving on hard rocks or logs along the banks to get water will reduce the signs you leave. Set clandestine fishing devices, such as stakeouts, below the surface of the water to avoid detection. http://outdoors-magazine.com/s_artic...id_article=212 --------------------- Regarding weight... and heavy tools, etc… In my opinion, every primary survival pistol should have 750 rounds available (at home base). Military style semi-auto rifles should have 4,500 rounds available, and so should a .22 Long Rifle. Shotguns should have 200 rounds of Buck or slug and 200 rounds of birdshot. (at home base) But you can’t always ‘bug out’ with ~300lbs of ammo easily. This is a BUG-OUT bag. And in my mind reloading is more weight and time than pre-loaded ammo. Why bother? (And I own a reloading press with 3-piece dies, fine, but I want my ammo loaded before TSHTF) And a collection of fine guns can chain you to your home and belongings. This is all about the BOB. I can budget bullets among my survival needs, but not too many… my strategy is to AVOID any violence and hostility, to avoid direct contact with any threatening people. I should be ‘invisible’ anyway. In the event of being shot at, if I neutralize my attacker, I could then get his stuff, right? So the question is, how many bullets can I expect to miss with before I take him out, or he takes me out? I think I have plenty, considering this is only a survival Bug-Out-Bag. ------------------------ Battlefield Mobility And The Soldier's Load, Major William L. Ezell, USMC As we have seen, history's "great captains" recognized that tactical mobility is one of the great principles of war and that the ability to gain this advantage is often paramount to victory. In 1920, a British study discovered that armies traditionally carried between 55 and 60 pound loads. The commission finally reached the following conclusion: ... not in excess of forty to forty-five pounds was a tolerable load for an average-sized man on a road march. A 1954 Marine Corps Development center study concluded that the maximum load for a rifleman should be lowered to 55 pounds for march conditions and 40 pounds for combat. This study further revealed that the average load for a Marine Rifle Squad was an unacceptable 71 pounds per Marine. (13: 42) History does not lend support to the perceived need to carry extraordinary loads of ammunition. During the Korean War, U.S. rifleman learned to carry only 94 to 120 rounds of ball ammunition, after their experiences of moving up and down the rugged Korean terrain. Despite these reductions, few historical examples from the Korean or other wars reflect a unit being destroyed because of an ammunition shortage. In fact, running low on ammunition has a perverse sort of advantage. When the individual believes he may run out of ammunition he becomes much more efficient and effective with each round. http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...t/1992/EWL.htm ------------------------ 95% of gunfights take place 21 feet or less* 55% of gunfights take place 5 feet or less* The average man can cover 21 feet on level ground in 1.5 seconds* The average man cannot draw a weapon from concealment in under 2 seconds* Seek and use cover. Be aware of false cover (concealment) The average gunfight lasts 3 to 5 seconds* 3 to 4 shots are usually fired* On average, 1 shot in 4 hits its intended target* http://www.geocities.com/chase1911/gunwisdom.html FIREARMS DISCHARGE ASSAULT REPORT TOTAL SHOTS… HITS… HIT POTENTIAL Less than 3 yards... 79shots... 30hits... 38% effective 3 - 7 yards 182shots… 21hits… 11.5% effective 7 - 15 yards 64shots… 6hits… 9.4% effective 15 - 25 yards 68shots… 9hits… 13.2% effective Over 25 yards 0 shots In 1990, 48% of all gunfights occurred at 7 yards or less. http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SOP9/1990R.htm The average gunfight for police, according to FBI research, lasts for less than three rounds (of police ammunition)." http://independent.gmnews.com/News/2...Board/014.html ----------------------- How heavy is various ammo? http://users.frii.com/gosplow/ammo.gif The standard AK-47 or SKS fires a 7.62x39mm round with a muzzle velocity of 710 m/s. Muzzle energy is 2,970 joules. Cartridge length is 38.6mm, weight is 18.21g. A battle pack of 180 loaded cartridges for an AK-47 or SKS weighs 7.3lbs By comparison, 243 loaded cartridges for the 5.56 NATO cartridges weigh 7.3lbs. The heavier 7.62 Russian is often considered better for less deflection by trees and branches in cover. It is also a potential big game round similar in power to the 30-30, not a varmint round. Sighted in to zero at 150yds, it hits only 3.8” low at 200, still not too bad if distance estimation is off a bit. (and yes you can make an AK a nail driver) http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=16604 A single 12 ga 2 �” shell weighs ~ 1.6oz. So sixty 12ga rounds weigh ~ 6lbs. 9x18 Makarov cartridge, 10gr each, 25mm OAL, 120 Mak rounds weighs 2.6lbs http://club.guns.ru/eng/handguns.html A box of (50) 40gr .22 Long Rifle bullets weighs ~ 6 oz. So 350 rounds .22 LR ammo weighs ~ 2.6lbs And if you here are die-hard gun collectors and unwilling to leave precious guns behind for looters, you might just die with them in there your comfortable home. I do not collect guns that I could or would not part with in a dire emergency needing a BOB. And I reload with a Lee 3-stage Carbide Die press too, and already have much ammo for storage, but I would not die for having excess loads to carry and/or protect. And I don't like relying on any re-loads for semi-automatic pistols or an AK-47. “A pilgrim is a wanderer with purpose.” “Anything you cannot relinquish when it has outlived its usefulness possesses you, and in this materialistic age a great many of us are possessed by our possessions.” ~Peace Pilgrim I mentioned that I would carry maps of the areas I anticipated traveling into or across. I have already downloaded and printed topo maps of ‘wild’ areas I might anticipate seeking refuge in. Just for instance here is a topo map of remote Clark Lake, Alaska, an area I used to guide in, elevation 258 feet: http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=...lon=-154.28528 And a map of Grand Mesa Mountain CO, 10,500 feet elevation, and a map of Sanibel Island FL, elevation 0 feet, also where is used to guide from: http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=...lon=-107.94917 http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=26.44&lon=-82.11389 Online topo map source: http://www.topozone.com/viewmaps.asp This is just an example BTW, I am far from these locations now, here in South Eastern USA’s temperate areas. Granted detailed maps are not always to be available if I travel with a BOB. But thanks to my USCG-type mariner’s training I can orienteer with a compass quite accurately by triangulating, and can also anticipate weather fronts and future wind directions. And a 1/8” cable snare will withstand a 1400lb pull… good for bears, wolverines, beavers, coyotes, wolves, etc…and they cut. Ouch! I don't need them. Just dead weight. I like deer here best and there are plenty of them, mostly does, seemingly everywhere. (For subsistence survival ONLY) Imagine a 25 foot length of 550lb camo parachute cord made into 24” loop secured by a hangman’s noose knot. Secure it on a NARROW deer trail about 18” off the ground. Spread the loop into a circle using a few ‘S’ hooks made from the soft florist wire. The deer just walks into it, head first, thinking it is just vines or something. Meanwhile it tightens… it is secured on the other end to a 100lb log, a drag, so that the deer can pull but never break the cord. The ability to move keeps him from totally freaking out and he quickly tires but leaves a visible trail for me to follow. I follow and place a 38 grain subsonic .22 hollow point into his brain, from a pistol rest, at about 20 feet. My small farmer friend kills dogs, hogs, cattle and sometimes a horse with a .22 long rifle in this way. I don’t want any wire for deer. I have (4) 1/8" steel cable snares available just for wild dogs, kept in the house, but not in my BOB. Ever see a Sam Peckinpaugh film, , Straw Dogs, with Dustin Hoffman? -- A man gone wild. For 'wild dogs', I have simpler plans like this… Booby Traps The Vietcong frequently used booby traps. They would salvage just about anything including US materials, to build the traps and then carefully conceal them. The traps could be made of anything from explosives to being hidden pits with stakes in them (known as punji pits). Wicker baskets filled with clay and laced throughout with sharp bamboo sticks, would swing down from the trees, killing a soldier immediately. In all, various improvised booby traps accounted for 10 percent of all Americans killed or wounded during the Vietnam War. http://www.vietnampix.com/poptrap.htm Quote:
Originally Posted by drafter My list is similar but I would agree that the makarov probably isn't a real good bugout choice though I do have an EG one and love it. For my everyday duffle I carry an AR-7 .22 (some people hate them, I like mine) and a 9mm pistol. Both are compact and easy to feed.
---------------------- Drafter, I am pleased you appreciate your little Mak. The Army has several basic survival kits, primarily for issue to aviators. Included are, Revolver, .38 caliber, and even a Lighter, butane… in my case the Makarov is AVAILABLE, not the best, and I would hate to leave it behind… and of course Drafter, I like the AR-7 and 9mm options just as well as mine here, or just a .22 Buckmark and a bigger bore defense pistol, or better than any pistol yet -- a 28” long with folded stock AK. Makarov is a keep or leave behind, or a hide-away gun to fight back to a proper rifle or shotgun. Keeping it with me is a low priority, but the little pistol has a minor niche as ‘extra gear‘. Could be concealed under my belt loop for Concealed Carry among people, or concealed 150 yards from my base camp, just in case marauder/bandits show mercy on me, “PLEEEEZE just let me go, you can have everything I have, just let me go with a shirt on my back? … Pleeeze? Here eat all my food! Here is my gun!”... And if I am lucky, I go get my 9-shot double action Makarov… it can kill a small pack of 'wild dogs'. You could booby trap one with a single bullet and a tripwire for medium game. Be sure you put up a sign to warn people away of such a last resort, SHTF-type animal trap. (In a total SHTF scenario, deep woods) I am sure the Makarov is not the perfect pistol, but it has proven to be simple accurate and reliable, and it shoots really fast. If I had one I would Dremmel felt-polish the internals a bit, it even has a hard-chrome bore and chamber, uses simple blow-back action, safety decocker, water-tight laquer-sealed Russian steel jacketed ammo. ----------------------- Review: Just got one and let me tell you it eats ammo without a hickup. Very enjoyable to shoot and the safety is sheer genius. It will make all those idiots who paid $400-$700 for a Glock die of Penis Envy! http://www.handgunreview.com/make.asp?make=Makarov http://makarov.com/graphics/S_makarov_exploded.jpg.http://makarov.com/graphics/S_em1.jpg.http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...2/f9ee555c.jpg http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26...npics/mak2.jpg Brown Bear 115-gr. JHP had recovered bullet dimensions of 0.61 diameter x 0.36" tall and recovered bullets weighed 113-grains on average. Average Velocity: 1018 ft/sec, extreme spread 32fps, from a Bulgarian Makarov. http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69403 The Makarov pistol was accepted by the Russian forces in 1951 and has been a standard military/police sidearm ever since. After the last shot is fired, the follower tab on the magazine pushes up on the slide release and the slide locks into the rearward position after ejecting the final case. The magazine should now be ejected (see magazine note below) and a new magazine inserted. By pushing the slide release, the recoil spring pushes the slide forward, stripping the first cartridge of the magazine into the chamber, and the pistol is ready to fire in single-action mode. The slide release may also be manually activated by pushing up while manually pulling the slide backwards and locking it in place. This is particularly useful when clearing jams (which, fortunately rarely happen). The Makarov only has 27 parts, which is considerably fewer than the Walther's 42. See the cross-sectional view of the Makarov for an overview. This overall simplicity of the gun is part of the genius of the design and allows the gun to be disassembled with very few tools, no small loose parts. http://makarov.com/makbasics.html The resulting 9x18 "Pistolet Makarova", or simply PM, was a stout, small, soldier-proof gun that has certainly earned its reputation as an all-time classic. Being the silent partner of WARPAC troops and KGB Agents for the bulk of the Cold War, the little "Mak" was at one time a rare sight. Accuracy is said to be spectacular with most Makarovs. Many uninformed shooters, dealers, pawn shop morons, gunsmiths and know-it-alls will malign the Makarov saying its unreliable or doesn't shoot readily available ammo. Nothing could be further from truth and the is no more opinion more baseless and uninformed. If you encounter a dealer with such attitude, he's not much of a dealer - take your business elsewhere. Some folks will say it isn't enough gun, this or that caliber is better, no "knock-down power" (heh, 'knock-down' power), etc. Sure thing bub, that's always fun to argue about. Get a Mak, practice a bunch and you'll be well-equipped. http://www.headsbunker.com/html/2005...ested-and.html ------------------------- Meanwhile the full size cal .40 S&W Taurus 101 (off the Berretta patent) with adjustable 3-dot sights and a 4 �” barrel, (5) loaded magazines, is a real 50 yard combat weapon, or can even be pushed out to 100yds. A magazine of (12+1) 155-grain rounds each w/500 ft/lbs muzzle energy is good for even stopping up to a black bear. Mid range 100yd trajectory is 3.6” when sighted in 2” high at 25 yards. At 100yds it still retains 356 ft-lbs energy, considerably more than the Makarov at the muzzle, matching a 9mm Lugar at the muzzle. This pistol is a sort-of compact carbine substitute. (But I know pistols are generally inferior to a rifle) This is a fine weapon to augment the Browning hunting .22 pistol as needed. So I’d likely keep that .40 to fill a broader niche and just stash the handy little Makarov. The 12 ga is good for reflexive or night time use, in a close setting. Shells are very heavy and a limiting factor. I might quickly lose or stash the shotgun, it being primarily for more home-based, rapid defense use. The ammo is very heavy and the range is short. The AK-47 is good in any defensive situation with accuracy of 20” groups at 500 yards if need be. The standard military sights quickly adjust to throw lead up to 1,000 yards. The quick-removable Belarus low rail side-mount and Leapers 4x32 compact scope has a mil-dot illuminated reticule for fairly precise estimation of range. But around here in trees and brush and buildings and hills, 100yds is considered a pretty long shot -- unless you are crossing an interstate highway or in a shopping-mall parking lot.. An AK bayonet is hard steel, the 6” blade is very thick, comes with a barb wire cutter on the sheath, and a saw back. It might be another good option to consider taking as an accessory heavy knife. It could even be pounded with a club against the knife back to use to split wood. But I do not plan on splitting wood. That is stuff I read in the book of “Woodland Lore” as a kid, not so appropriate IMO in a BOB scenario. My 4” SS fixed-blade knife and Leatherman saw will likely suffice. I've cleaned many a fish and fowl and furred critter... so I know from experience what I can do with my stuff here. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimpleton You're way ahead of me, MM. If you're a refugee, you need a different load. If you're headed to a destination, you need a different load or method. Pre-caches and so on. That said, way too few razors. Soap and scours too. Need oil. Electronics are to be disposed when batteries fail? Or have solar charger? More crap to care for. CB, etc may be used, but technology moves so fast it may be encrypted or some other by the time it's used. Don't forget an EMP will fry them if not shielded. What is night vision for? As a heavy, fragile item, it better be really useful. What is aspirin for? I wouldn't carry it for headaches and heart attack prevention is the last you your worries if you live in a pack. They rattle, too. You're doubled up on a lot of items, string, lights, first aid, but this may be by design. I love the orange drink. Somewhere I've seen japanese? garden knives, they have a knife on one side, saw on the other, scooped blade in-between, made for digging roots. Cheap and durable but good enough for all things. MM is there a good, light shovel? Almost seems a broken shovel-head would be lighter, cheaper, and better than the army-types. Speaking of ungettables, files will be in sudden demand and rust or wear, very useful, and are very hard to make. Good item to have ahead of time. ...But not to carry. What are you doing for water tank/storage? I'd think a good drybag/shower would be useful for several things. Good water is hard to find and easy to use. $4 at Walmart just for the crappo folders, $50 for a yuppie MSR or Rubber bag. Thinking about moving through situations is an high art. If you did a 2-week pretend run I bet you'd find a lot of stuff you'd want to change. But the basic question is, "what's the situation that gets you out the door with this bag?" Where are you going? Are you walking long enough to need needles and tools? If situations change can you change the bag before leaving or re-tune it in the field easily? If I were a refugee, I'd want to look too poor to rob. In wars, stuff is cheap, it's consumables that are dear. Thanks for posting. TS "You taught me people will do anything for a potato." -Empire of the Sun
THANK YOU, Simpleton. One of my rubberized canoeing ‘dry bags’, say 15”x22”, would be useful if I were to anticipate a lot of rain, or crossing bodies of water. It would also double as a durable water bladder. ’AA’ and ‘AAA’ NiMh batteries and a small solar charger would be wonderful, Simpleton. A great idea. But I am very heavily invested in alkalines now, figuring them also good barter. If I made one additional investment, that NiMh system replacement might be it. Here is what I plan to get soon, maybe on Ebay: http://i15.ebayimg.com/04/i/06/3a/4a/ab_2.JPG Solar Battery Charger for Extended Life AA Rechargeable Batteries. In direct sunlight this unit will fully charge four AA and four AAA batteries in approximately 10 hours. A clip is provided for easy clipping on your belt, backpack, waistband, etc.. Equipped with a built-in blocking diode to prevent the current flowing back to the solar panel when fully charged or during night time hours. Opening bid $9.99 + $5.00 S&H Brand new high quality AA Size rechargeable Nickel Metal Hydride (Ni-MH) battery -Provides ultra long use time per charge with this high 2300 mAh capacity. Advanced Ni-MH technology means much longer use life per charge than the ordinary rechargeable -Designed for enhanced performance for high drain applications such as 2-way radios, and other portable high drain digital electronics -Can be recharged for up to 1000 times -Convenient operation without memory effect. Can be rapidly charged with any charger. ---------------------- Having 16 ‘AA’ and 8 ‘AAA’ NiMH batteries and a solar charger, and another 12v car battery charger for ‘AA’s along inside my CB radio, in this way I would have AMPLE battery power for lights, night vision, radios, all for a long and indefinite time. You gave me very good input here for an enhancement, Simpleton. :beer: Or some could consider Lithium batteries for just ultra-light weight, but not rechargeable -- and not for me. The Lunar Rover used them for instance, good for a one time deal: Replace the AA Alkaline batteries in your flashlights with AA Lithium batteries. Lithium AA batteries weigh 50% less than alkaline and last about 3 times longer. They only cost about $5.00 for two, so you actually come out ahead in the long run. http://www.backpacking.net/tips.html Actually the orange drink tastes more like vitamins than sweet Orange Juice, it is so potent. I imagine using it sparingly and much diluted. Ubiquitous chopped pine needles make a tea that is very rich in Vitamin C. Wild plants are mostly VERY nourishing. I don’t really carry much OTC medicine with me but I would always carry aspirin. We forget that it is a natural wonder drug. I myself do not take more than a dozen a year right now. I seldom get headaches and I do not like it’s anti-coagulant properties normally in the bush, I could bleed to death. But consider it‘s usefulness when a high fever from the ‘flu’ may kill a person otherwise… ---------------------- Aspirin is a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID) effective in treating fever, pain, and inflammation in the body. As a group, NSAIDs are non-narcotic relievers of mild to moderate pain of many causes, including injury, menstrual cramps, arthritis, and other musculoskeletal conditions. STROKES: Aspirin use is now recommended in both men and women to treat mini-strokes (transient ischemic attack --TIA) or ischemic stroke to prevent subsequent cardiovascular events or death. Reduces the risk of death in patients with suspected acute heart attacks (myocardial infarctions) or sudden death in patients with unstable and chronic stable angina pectoris (chest pain). http://www.fda.gov/cder/news/aspirin/aspirin_QA.htm Severe reaction to caterpillar hairs -- Areas treated with aspirin paste showed marked improvement over four hours. The paste is made by adding a few drops of water to a soluble aspirin tablet and applying it to the affected area. http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/...lit/balit.html And at 8oz weight, I consider night vision a wonderful accessory… ---------------------- With the advances in night vision technology some long established principles of night fighting have become obsolete, thus antiquating those principles alluded to by B. H. Liddell Hart in a 1955 article where he states, "a cloak of invisibility is the best means of surprise and better than any armor as a means of protection. Moreover, the cloak that nature provides nightly has the advantage of being more consistent and predictable than any artificial one." History is replete with examples of the successes gained through the conduct of the night attack. http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...t/1991/WWJ.htm ENVIS is a rugged hand-held night vision system designed specifically to meet SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) requirements. In combat operations, aviators and other special operators must be prepared to survive and evade in hostile territory. For obvious reasons, night movement is the best choice for evasive movement, but it is generally discouraged because the evader can stumble into unfriendly hands or get lost. NVEC's ENVIS is the survival tool designed specifically to overcome these hazards. http://www.nvec-night-vision.com/pro...VIS&Category=4 --------------------- And sure you can pay $1,000+ dollars for Gen 2+ NV, but consider for NV starters and such compact light weight: --------------------- http://www.opticplanet.com/gfx/large/elf-2.jpg It is hard to believe that 500x light amplification can come from a device size so small. The Elf I™ Night Vision monocular is made in Russia by LOMO PLC, one of Europe's most advanced optical manufacturers. Sale price: $99.99 You Save: $160.00 Magnification: 1 X Field of View: 22� Resolution: 2 mrad IR Illuminator: Built-in Voltage: 3 V Continuous work: 8 hours Generation of Image Intensifying Tube: 1st Amplification factor: 500 Size: 110 x 70 x 60 mm (4.3" x 2.8" x 2.4") Weight: 0.3 kg (0.7 lb) http://www.opticsplanet.net/elf1.html# ---------------------- Consider the above monocular. I have found it to be a ’best deal’ and I can vouch for this seller and product by my experience. ALL predators and prey benefit greatly from night vision. Look to nature and see that color vision is uncommon among higher mammals. It incurs a price to pay of very poor night vision. Most attackers will approach by night. Smart animals will move by night, unseen and all the while, seeing. I learn from nature’s well-designed animals. If I travel I might often plan to travel in the concealment and stillness of the dark. By flicking on the compact Lomo Elf-1 for a minute or so I can scan what lies ahead of me and memorize it to make my way much more safely. The payback could be immense and life saving. It is usually better to move at night because of the concealment darkness offers. http://outdoors-magazine.com/s_artic...id_article=233 If nothing else you can see who is coming… http://www.thedarkpaladin.com/images/aw.jpg ------------------------ Regarding large $700 (used) binoculars, after years of being a fishing guide, and USCG licensed Captain for passenger vessels 100ton, 100 miles offshore, I have peered through many of my guest’s high-dollar spectacles. The clarity of view on wildlife is incredible. But IMO they are not worth the money TO ME. In a BOB my pick would be a small 12x25mm in any brand. Waterproof optics would be nice, but I have a budget and this camo color Tasco is fine for my needs. I will be careful to keep it dry. In fact if I carried along the small 4x mil-dot illuminated reticule waterproof scope on the AK-47, I would substitute that as spying or scouting optics, and ditch the redundant binoculars altogether -- if I was on foot. ------------------------ Leatherman file saw http://www.leatherman.co.uk/home/sup...pertool200.gif Stainless Steel Construction Needlenose Pliers Regular Pliers Wire Cutters Hard-Wire Cutters Clip-Point Knife Blade Serrated Knife Blade Wood Saw Wood/Metal File (hardened) Extra-Small Screwdriver Medium Screwdriver Large Screwdriver Phillips Screwdriver Ruler (9 inch/22 cm) Bottle/Can Opener Electrical Crimper Wire Stripper Awl Lanyard Attachment Length: 4.5 in. Weight: 9.4 ounces http://www.leatherman.co.uk/home/main.htm So I have a metal file, and as I said I would carry a diamond knife sharpener… even 2 razor blades. Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (You're no) Simpleton; The East German folding shovels are high quality. Don't know of any that are "light", (maybe an aluminum snow shovel?), but the EG tool is quality steel and has a folding pick blade, and a replaceable (maybe adaptable) handle. Cold Steel supposedly makes the Special Forces Shovel which is well regarded. You might get more use out of a Mattock, and your idea of a shovel head is very sound just have a way to bolt a limb or sapling to serve as a handle. Digging is pretty basically important. A dug-out house will be insulated by its earth berming, and be faster to erect, too. It is "Proofed" against much that you might encounter. A sod roof will work if you build it right. If you are bugging out with a trailer, consider adding some aluminum or steel roofing panels to the your load. Anyway you can get some durable roofing material to the outback, you will be ahead of the game. Some of those durable decking screws will be worth their weight in gold. A Paslode propane powered utility nailer with some spare cylinders and a box of 3.5" nails would enable you to build just about anything very rapidly. The big Spike nails could/might work for makeshift lookout platforms. Nice to have a cache of stuff as your Plan B.
I have considered your suggestion regarding nails and screws, MM. Thanks. I will add (10) 1 �” self starting sheet rock screws to my pack. I can use the Leatherman’s phillips head to drive them anywhere. But I am not planning on building a cabin of boards in the woods with my Bug-Out-Bag. A propane-powered NAIL DRIVER? This is a Bug-Out-Bag... I know that roadside curbs are littered with all sorts of metal parts. In a few hours I could have quite a collection of hardware and metal for tool making. Why have a "lookout platform" when I can quickly climb a tree? I can shimmy straight up a 1" steel pole with just my arms, using no legs, mind you. I forgot to list this… On all my scores of backpacking trips I normally carry this sturdy plastic trowel, if only to dig ’cat holes’ for latrine use. My mini-latrine method… I dig a 6”x6”cone shaped plug and carefully lift it out. After my safe ’deposit‘, I light the toilet paper. This keeps flies away and imparts a smoke smell that discourages animals. Then I replace the plug and tamp it down. My used latrine is invisible this way. (ALWAYS dig this hole well away from running water, for hygiene) I also urinate in a wide circle of spots around my camps, to mark my territory for other animals to beware. http://www.prolitegear.com/prolitege...trowel_reg.jpg Sturdy plastic trowel - ideal for camp use Made of high impact styrene Total length: 11 inches Weighs 1.6oz. http://www.fatiguesarmynavy.com/images/items/ge2403.gif German Army Folding Pick & Shovel New, steel blade and pick, wooden handle, leather sheath, super heavy duty. Price: $19.95 I would very much want to include this item, which I already have and own… I estimate it weighs <2lbs and is very sturdy, not junk. This soil is rocky and the sturdy pick would be nice. It makes a very effective CQC weapon as well, even better than a knife, and only marginally less effective than a rifle mounted bayonet. One edge can be sharpened with the Leatherman I carry… Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters I think the Primary Bug Out Bag consists of everything you can stuff into a vehicle and transit to where you are going. Best not to be a Refugee, but call it like it is; if you evacuate with nowhere to go, that's what you are. How much can your car/vehicle carry? Do you have a trailer? Maybe a storage stall somewhere near where you want to windup? I think ol' Koy is a nice fella; but it is not very realistic (although romantic) to think you can live out of your backpack and survive for more than a few weeks. :questionm ============================================== Just maybe, maybe, maybe; if you lived near a large wilderness area, you could pull this off, but not on only one 45 lb knapsack of gear. I backpacked a couple times into a large Wilderness area. In large National Forest areas of the West and Eastern US, you could likely park your car at a trailhead and make several trips in and out with backpacks full of gear. Take a mountain bike and use it for transport of your gear. Put gear racks over both wheels, and rig a framework in the center. You want to WALK that bike on trails until you get halfway close to where you will go off the trail. you could put 200 lbs on a bike, I would wager. Daypacks on either side of each wheel and on top of the rack for a total of 6 packs; and then 2 larger frame backpacks attached to the center bar of the frame. Not likely to be a cakewalk, but people do similar deals with bicycle pannier packs all the time. Why spend $700 on those specialized packs when you can use daypacks and have them to use for other things? Eric Rudolph is the poster-boy of bugout mentality. He supposedly lived on the edge of small towns and foraged through garbage cans and dumpsters at night. Living like that is "living", but preparing with more would be prudent. Right now, the BugOut planners ought to be building some kind of hidey-hole that is ready to accomodate them. Maybe just get a piece of driveway drainpipe and bury it some where. Lots of people think GoreTex Bivouac Tents are a good long term plan for shelter. An earth-insulated spider hole would be warm and hidden. Having some place to "go" just seems more prudent. Taking everything you think you might ever be able to use would be desirable.
Your home where you store or even can your food and reload your ammo is perhaps considered your ‘base of operation‘. But in the event of TEOTWAWKI -- The End Of The World As We Know It… You may have to leave it. Ideally you would leave in a loaded car or truck or even an RV. This is like taking off in a private airplane, whoosh!, out of there fast. I keep about 50lbs of gear in my trunk at all times, a shovel, bow saw, blanket, antifreeze, gas jug, �” rope, fix-a-flat cans, tire pump, come-along winch, pully tackle, USA Road Atlas, etc. I keep the tank at least 2/3 full and keep an extra 5 gallons of gas at the house for a minimum. This is for about 350 miles minimum non-stop travel in my ’airplane’. But your passage may be blocked due to roadblocks or destruction or quarantine or martial law. Perhaps you are wanted for placement in a re-education camp. No one likes to think about abandoning an airplane they might have worked long and hard to acquire, maintain, and train in. But sometimes, there are no alternatives. History shows that the decision to get out is often made quickly, and as a result of a catastrophic event. Regardless of the particular situation, you must be extraordinarily decisive about getting out, and your decision must be based on a pre-determined set of criteria. The Bug-Out-Bag is your personal ‘ejection seat’ and ‘parachute’ and most basic survival gear. An EJECTION SEAT: Gino Santi invented the pilot ejection seat. By rocketing the pilot out of the canopy and harm’s way, his invention saved thousands of lives. http://www.warbirdalley.com/images/e...iasus_full.jpg.http://www.warbirdalley.com/images/eject5.jpg This version of a BOB allows for an indefinite period of time, if you are fit, smart, have a strong constitution, and are knowledgeable enough. :rock: “You can’t always get what you want, but you’ll get what you need.” ~Rolling Stones Eric Rudolf was a fugitive for pre-meditated murder and a twisted cowardly killer of innocents. And yet he was I suppose, depicted as ‘hiding out’ in the woods, scary stuff. I think he had some sympathetic local help and assistance. In my opinion, his memory casts irrelevant umbrage by association on the BOB concept. A truly independent man seems like a threat to most sheeple today. It is a case of subliminal association. Fear has deep-felt associations. Now -- Imagine a nuc attack on the US. Whole populations must be re-located. You will be ordered to leave your property and belongings. Hoarding will be made illegal. Guns will be confiscated. UN Troops establish martial law. At first fear and food will be the incentive. You refuse, being a competent home survivalist, you think. Then you become called a dissident, a resistor. They come for you in a sweep, assisted finally by troops and a Bradley vehicle. You are to be captured and placed in a detention re-education center. Your goods, all of them will be confiscated and allocated to survivors. Now YOU are a fugitive. You can’t drive away, or maybe you do but you meet an armed roadblock checkpoint… you have no ejection seat, no B-O-B. And I can’t imagine peddaling a bicycle with even 100lbs of load besides myself. Why? To lug full-size tools and axes I don’t even need? One more thing to break down, and in any case limit my safety and mobility -- hitched to a bicycle. But it may come in handy initially to get around road jams or something. BTW, I used to bicycle about 100 miles a week back on the island... and you MM, you demand costly Leopold rifle scopes, $700 Steiner feild glasses, but you are happy with any old Walmart or Pawn Shop bike to make your last-resort get-away? I am lost with this type of thinking. Meanwhile most people never venture off a trail or road. Desperately hungry people, or scared people, or criminal people, they do not often venture off a trail. If you are camped by a roadside or river even in a cabin or RV, or limited to riding a bike, you are potential capture or prey. IF the ‘Authorities’ found you, because you did not give up your guns or PMs or 'hoarded' food freely, I could try and use a lock-pick or hacksaw or Leatherman Hard wire cutter to get you out… but then if I did, how would YOU feed yourself? I guess you’d be ‘out-of-luck‘. In my location I am surrounded by wooded mountains everywhere in sight. Dense green laurel and pine forests dot the rolling hardwood forests. Streams are clear and plentiful. Yet most so-called ‘outdoorsmen̵7; never get 50 feet off a trail or path, or road, or stream bank -- I would say 95% of them. So 95% of the ‘outdoorsmen’ never visit 99% of the forest. And the thugs and gangs for sure will be ‘lost’; in the woods. -- Nothing good and easy for them there. Regarding digging -- I would love to carry my German Entrenchment tool for potential shelters and stashes, or burying animal remains, if nothing else. I listed it as an option. See shelters as dug out below: http://www.m4040.com/Survival/Skills...outShelter.htm http://www.m4040.com/Survival/Skills...%20Shelter.htm Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimpleton We'll have to hear from Koy but I would bet that his pack is part of a plan if I'm not mistaken. I believe he's spoken of wilderness areas. Two problems with wilderness: one is that it's wilderness for a reason: no food/lousy soil/bad weather. Two is that if people are bugging, I guarantee it won't be a wilderness for long; anyone who visits it will be thinking "gosh, if anything ever happens, I'll just go to that abandoned Prov/State/Natl park." Then whoever is meanest and most armed becomes the local bandito. No doubt you can stay completely unknown if you accept an incredible level of hardship and fortitude: no fires, ascetic starvation, etc., but you have to know that's what you want and mean to do. I mean, John the Baptist did it, but I think the transition would be much harder than anyone thinks and the temptation to see others would be perpetually overwhelming. One way to think of it is like it being "Cold Mountain" every day of the year for 10 years. There is no place to go others won't be fleeing to as well. Civilization is a reality and you should conjoin with it in ways that are most practicable for your situation and personality. Besides, if you have skills, it's unchristian to let others suffer around you without helping them. ...Just some idle thoughts in these times of leisure and plenty. TS
In another little noticed thread on Survival Books, a list I began for us all here, I believe you mentioned the author and survival instructor Tom Brown. http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...853#post222853 I have his first book called, The Tracker. Tom Brown met ‘Stalking Wolf‘, an Apache medicine man possessing ancient wisdom and vision. In it he states: "School taught me how to read, Stalking Wolf taught me how to learn". pg.5 I asked him once why he was so still at times. And he said, “To see better.” pg.11 “The buck staggered when I landed on his back, and would have bolted, but I pulled his head back by the antlers and stabbed down into his chest. I stabbed him again and he started to drop. The dying took forever and he would not go down. I pulled the knife out and jerked his head back and slit his throat.” … “He kicked me twice before I tripped him to the ground and stabbed him all the way through.“ pg. 144, also “I have killed no deer since then except for food, and only after all other alternatives have failed.” Whew! I would count on my methods as being much safer for my continued survival… his methods seem quite dangerous and difficult for sure! But that ol’ Tom Brown, he sure is a real wild CAT! He seems light on detailed instruction -- and heavy on spiritual inspiration. I guess you have to attend his 'private schools'... Yet with smaller game such as raccoon, opossum, rabbits and squirrels, I would kill silently with a stone tipped club assembled for that purpose. I am used to killing toothy critters (barracuda, king mackerel, sharks) with a short club. I have a deft touch and deadly aim now. My farmer friend cuts his chicken‘s heads off. Being ‘civilized’ means you pay someone else to do your acquisition and killing for you. The effect is the same. People pay others to do their killing for them these days... Another set of spring poles guard my hide-out site. (at night) In addition to slapping the intruder‘s face or legs, or dropping or swinging an object or snare about it’s head, concurrently a pull-string firecracker is instantly sounded along beside. Attackers are at once frightened and disoriented. -- I quickly become invisible and go to ‘night vision‘. They then, my would-be attacker(s), will become ‘my prey‘. Timberland Acreage a typical US State North Carolina had 18.1 million acres of commercial timberland in 1938, covering 58 percent of all the state's land area (Figure 1). Commercial timberland is any forestland capable of growing merchantable crops of timber that has not been set aside for parks or wilderness. In the mid-1960s and early 1970s, the acreage reached a high of more than 20.13 million acres. Total acreage has decreased to the present level of 18.71 million acres, or 60 percent of all North Carolina lands. http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/nreos/wood/o...ff/trends.html Designated Wilderness Acreage in NC, 111,410 acres http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?...c=chartResults This state is home to four national forests , covering a total of 2,954,000 acres. That totals over 20 million acres of 'woods'... Population, 2004 estimate 8,541,221 ----------------------- Figure 8.5 million people (with 20 million acres of forest, wilderness or parks…) the population mostly concentrated in metro areas. Fully 52% of population lives inside municipalities. http://demog.state.nc.us/side_menu.html http://demog.state.nc.us/demog/gif/densb00.gif ---------------------- We talk a lot here about fancy water filters, but for long term effectiveness I rely on old fashioned simple Clorox. I drop my drops and let it sit for at least 15 minutes, occasionally shaking it. Supplies of it would be wonderful in the case of disinfecting all manner of supplies from virulent disease organisms too... Chlorine-based chemicals are the disinfectants of choice for treating drinking water. In fact, some 98% of all systems that treat water employ chlorine-based disinfectants. Facilities use chlorine because it does its job extremely well, is safe to use when handled properly and is very cost-effective. After its initial introduction in 1908 in New Jersey, chlorine was adopted as a disinfectant by most water treatment plants in the United States and Canada. More than 200 million Americans and Canadians receive chlorine-disinfected drinking water every day. Chlorine oxidizes many naturally occurring substances such as foul-smelling algae secretions and odors from decaying vegetation, resulting in nonodorous, better-tasting drinking water. http://c3.org/chlorine_knowledge_cen...cl.html#awater Diluted Clorox (mixed one part Clorox to 9 parts water) also helps ‘draw out poison’ of fire ant or bee stings, an old remedy, and as a soak for athlete’s foot or ointment for poison ivy. Tea Candles can be melted onto string or wood or paper for paraffin fire starter. It makes use of a magnifying glass to start a flame so much easier. Discarded wax cups and cartons will offer the same. Rubbing candles can be used as paste wax for gun blue, lubricating zippers, sealing tent leaks, even sealing canned goods. Light a candle for 20 seconds to blacken the bottom of a SS cook pot. The pot will heat faster and save alcohol fuel. It is not having a candle so much as having a valued piece of multi-use paraffin. Chap stick SPF-15 can be used as tent sealer, gun protectant and lube, to fight split cuticles on fingertips, a fire starter, waterproofing for fabric, strengthening thread, and occasionally on my dry lips. A small tube of Vaseline would be more compact and long lasting as an addition. Iodine 2% tincture can also be used at 8 drops per liter to kill micro-organisms in water. http://www.high-altitude-medicine.com/water.html Baking soda… Reduce acids in wild plant recipes, Treat minor burns, Cool off sunburn and other skin irritations, Soothe poison ivy rashes, Make a salve for bee stings, Fight diaper rash, Use as an all-natural deodorant, or alleviate athlete's foot -- or just dip your wet toothbrush in some baking soda and brush and rinse. Cavities are caused by acids you know. And certain wild foods such as acorns are highly acidic, so soda could help in wild food preparation and cooking. Ethanol fuel (denatured alcohol or laquer thinner) and soda-can stove burns with clear flame, no fumes or soot, no flare-ups like gasoline, can easily be extinguished with water. The stove weighs nothing and it is SAFE. http://i16.ebayimg.com/04/i/04/5b/70/9d_2.JPG http://hikinghq.net/stoves/stove_compare.html http://www.bicycletouring101.com/CampStoveOlympics.htm A Hobo Stove made from a large can burns broken pencil-sized dry twigs for a concealed flame, little smoke, no trace of a residual fire pit, and very meager easy-to-collect fuel. It is very stable and efficient, even in a wind. A larger variation and hardwood embers becomes a meat smoker. http://www.motherearthnews.com/menar...86-047-01a.jpg http://www.motherearthnews.com/libra..._It_Hobo_Stove And what’s Problematic about Toilet Paper? What to Use? Snow River Rocks Wooly Lamb's Ear Old Man's Beard Grass Mountain Money -- is Toilet Paper. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/arti...86&postcount=1 Garbage bags can be wrapped around the feet and lower legs to block evaporative cooling and keep a person warm well below the insulating level of the clothing underneath. Warm air is trapped and so is moisture from the feet. After a while your perspiration shuts down but you may get a bit soggy. It is a life saver. A convenient source of fresh water is rain, captured with plastic from a bag. Can also seal vulnerable items in submersion. Can seal a roof. A Vapor Barrier is an item designed to trap body heat and hold in body moisture. Vapor barrier bags (plastic bags) can be used in emergency and survival situations.They are used inside a sleeping bag, and not as an outter shell. Vapor Barrier clothing can be worn in or out of a sleeping bag, lowering the bag's rating by as much as 10 degrees. http://www.trailquest.net/ultralight.html Mylar Space Blankets can be used in many a like way. A single thin blanket folds down to the size of a cigarette pack. If one is ever concerned with FLIR, or Forward Looking Infra-Red, the mylar blocks 97% of light and infrared. It can be used as a roof cover and then covered with soil and debris, or safety pinned using small pieces of surgical tape as reinforcement for safety pin holes in the mylar, underneath the tent fly. This tent fly can also be carried and draped around a person in an unexpected emergency. And mylar is life-saving WARM and dry. Knee and elbow pads, so one can crawl and fall fast, easily and painlessly, invisible as a low shapeless movement, offering a very small target, all the while offering a deadly aim. Pound for pound this is likely the highest utility 'body armor' to carry. Both together less than 1 lb. I am very concerned with crippling injuries during all my BOB activities. This could mean my death out there alone. Avoiding cumulative risk is what it is all about. But most people are seemingly not prepared to give me or anyone medical aid for injuries anyway. Grey’s Anatomy as MM suggested elsewhere is just not going to help. I might be better off alone. Yet I am prepared here myself to help others ailing as well. The Special Forces Medical Guide is an excellent 400-page aid in diagnosis and long term care of sick and injured, as I said. Flying glass is a common injury in disasters, especially explosions. Self inflicted injuries from knives, saws and other tools are also common, as barb wire cuts or falling down. All are reasons for a wound closure. Removing flying objects and closing all manner of wounds is a reason for some surgical gear and sutures. Very little attention has been given to medical care by this forum. Yet this is a vital human need and a humanitarian gesture for others in desperate need. Many seem to omit an understanding that disasters or plagues often neutralize medical assistance. I am amazed at how overlooked this medical aspect of survival is here at GIM. The camo tarp and mesh camo netting could be used for quick concealment of the second ‘stash bag’ … also very useful stuff to have. The mesh camo net could be used to trap wild turkeys, as noted above. On a list of ‘survival books’ I started, Peterson’s Guide to Wild Edible Eastern Plants, or the Dykeman Wild Plant guide will allow you to obtain abundant greens and wild plants. I could supply myself with all the vitamins I need just by picking weeds and wild flowers and onions from my yard -- if I did not cut the grass. So much of this discussion regards the more difficult part, obtaining protein and calories from game and fish and snails and crustaceans -- I don’t eat bugs and worms yet… yuck! Five days fasting did not make me hungry enough for that, and I do not anticipate it ever happening. Let me also stress, I do not want to hurt anyone, and if I must commit violence, I would prefer a stun gun to eliminate lasting effects. Then I can escape easily. I mentioned as a BOB option a 500KV stun baton -- only because I gave my Mother this stun-pen of mine below for Christmas. She likes it, and she is 71 years old, but a Mountain Mother she is… so I am left with a short baton. Oh well. Few at GIM seem interested in non-lethal defense, body armor, medical skills, or night vision to identify threats or separate friends from foes… Only lots of pretty threatening guns and LOTS of ammo to kill maybe scores. Consider: http://www.pantherstunguns.com/image...lus_marker.jpg . http://www.pantherstunguns.com/images/logo/pantlogo.gif With amazing advanced technology these small but high powered Stun Gun Pens deliver up to 500,000 volts in a compact case and are about the size of a large marker. These sleek stun pens are very lightweight and convenient to carry. Size is ( 6 3/8" x 1" x 3/4" ) and they operate on just 2 AAA alkaline batteries. http://www.pantherstunguns.com/dir_stun_gun_pen.htm And under extreme conditions, it is amazing what some ‘survivors’ will do: --------------------- A Leg to Stand On Amputation: A Split Decision http://outside.away.com/outside/feat...stories_9.html Left for Dead Frontiersman Hugh Glass Came out of the Jaws of a Grizzly, Alive. Glass lay mutilated and lame more than 200 mi (320 km) from the nearest settlement at Fort Kiowa on the Missouri.Deciding that following the Grand would be too dangerous because of "hostiles" (aggressive natives), Glass crawled overland south toward the Cheyenne River. It took him months to reach it. Glass survived mostly on wild berries and roots. On one occasion he was able to drive two wolves from a downed bison calf, and feast on the meat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Glass Sgt. York said to a reporter: "I sat right where I was, and it seemed as if every gunner was a-firing straight at me. All this time, though, I was a-using my rifle, and the enemy he was a-feeling the effects of it. One of our boys yelled that it was impossible, but I yelled back `Shut up !' I knew one American was better than ten Germans if he kept his wits." York had no thought of surrender and said later, "Somehow, I knew I wouldn't be killed." Aiming as he used to when shooting off the heads of the turkeys he said… “I touched them off. Then, I got out my automatic“…(he captured single-handed 132 prisoners, and killed twenty-five German machine-gunners) http://freepages.military.rootsweb.c...lvinCYork.html The Donner Party reached the base of the steep summit on October 31. Heavy snow continued falling overnight and by morning the pass was completely blocked by snowdrifts over twenty feet high. Over the next four months, the remaining men, women, and children huddled together in cabins, make shift lean-tos, and tents. The cattle had all been killed and eaten by mid-December; one man had died of malnutrition. The people began to eat bark, twigs, and boiled hides. Many people had already died and some of the survivors left in the camps had begun to eat the dead. (It is believed that about half of the survivors of the Donner party resorted to cannibalism, having held off for as long as they could after their food was gone.) http://www.vw.vccs.edu/vwhansd/HIS121/Donner.html In 1972, a group of rugby players, their friends and families left on an airplane for Chile from Urugua. The plane crashed into the snow-covered Andes Mountains killing thirteen of the forty-five passengers onboard the aircraft. Many of the passengers died over the 72 days ordeal from crash-related injuries. Without any provisions, those left alive resorted to cannibalizing the dead. Those who refused to eat the human flesh died of starvation. http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal...ibalism/3.html A 13-day tale of Cuban Boat People... Using a fishing line they found on board, the men fished using the top of a matchbox as bait, catching a medium fish. With the head of it, they caught a larger fish. Then with the head of that fish, they pulled a large shark near their boat. The desperate men jumped into the water, trying to subdue the beast with punches and brute force, but the shark got away. "From that point on, we were followed by a pack of 20 sharks," Dausa said. After a few days, men began to die. The survivors would wait 24 hours, then toss the bodies overboard. But about 13 days into the ordeal, they stopped throwing bodies away. Instead, they took a vote on the boat, and decided to start eating the dead. Dausa said he was among four men who refused to cannibalize, fearing that it would turn the men on the ship against each other for food. The men were rescued about two days after they started eating human flesh, about 100 miles south of Lousiana. http://blogs.herald.com/cuban_connec...alism_sav.html --------------------- I am sure that I would not ever eat human flesh, but when I took an informal poll of my co-workers, a surprising percentage of the under 35yr-olds said they would eat human flesh in an emergency, maybe half, and just about all the guys and gals with a lot of tattoos said they would eat people if they were hungry enough... And consider, they have never been REALLY hungry… I have. And perhaps many of you are overweight or out of shape. Nature favors the smaller man. He can produce just as much food in the wild, and in most cases on the farm, or as in industry just as much output, as a larger man. He uses less food and resources as well. He treads lighter and can climb trees, ford streams, walk logs more handily than the large man. In combat, he is a smaller target, nimble and quick, and yet can utilize weapons to equal effect in most cases. By principles of the lever, pulleys and ropes, rollers and drags, he can handle heavy loads as well as a larger man -- given a bit of time for ingenuity. Most of you apparently never consider the preparedness and conditioning of your own body as a survival mechanism. Instead the focus is on getting the ‘right stuff’. And plenty of it. The body is a key tool to survival. Quote:
Originally Posted by gasilat A tiny wood stove in a vehicle makes an excellent shelter. Assuming you have a vehicle all you need is a tiny wood stove to add to the list. A vehicle can haul a lot of rice and beans to boot. Personally I have 2 bug out cabins in separate locations deep in the woods with no road access. If for some unknown reason they are compromised my plan is to.....sorry...transmission is weak...no signal seems to be getting out.....
gasilat, Wrap your radio in tin foil or inside a metal can, or with the florist's wire -- for a crude Faraday Cage… as in my 'old' EMP Bomb threadpost linked in 1st post up above. And I like this remote portable abode of mine with only a mummy bag for warmth -- but no need of fuel. I was a bit non-specific about my Eureka tent. It is a Backcountry 2 depicted here, but any small dull drab high quality modern tent would do. This one of mine has survived a 10” Colorado snowfall with me sleeping inside. Later, withstood 30mph winds. I can set it up or take it down in <5 minutes in the dark. It is self supporting. It is always DRY. It weighs less than 5.5 lbs and folds to 15” long. I can ’live inside’ if I have to with all my gear, so it is useful in dimension, very lightweight and well ventilated if I wish. I can use either the rain fly or tent alone if I wish. The rainfly doubles as an emergency poncho, blanket or tarp. Some of you have suggested bringing propane powerd nail drivers and a heavy axe, but also suggest living under a tarp, not a superior light-weight all-weather quick-set-up tent like this. (MoneyMatters above) I just can't fathom his thinking at all. I am puzzled. But Gasilat, I think YOU were just kidding maybe. I am not, but I enjoy the humor. http://www.campmor.com/images/tents/24920.jpg http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/st...berId=12500226 Quote:
Originally Posted by falser Read or watch Stephen King's "The Stand".
falser, that is my favorite of King's books, and a favorite, period. Perhaps it influences my thinking a bit… Plagues are to be expected in TEOTWAKI times, or even a potential cause of it. Another reason to avoid people contact (avoiding mass forced quarantines?) until things settle down a lot. If a super-lethal killer virus is released, historical studies show that in time it will ‘mutate’ into a less virulent strain. Time can perhaps save me. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKingsSon What supplies like that, it seems like you can't wait to go.
Seems like YOU can’t wait ‘to go to heaven’, KingsSon. Or maybe to get out the offering plate to save some souls -- so that you yourself may survive the TEOTWAWKI. (The End Of The World As We Know It) You will probably be OK and thrive under hardships by selling 'the Lord' to folks. It has worked well through the ages... Quote:
Originally Posted by RichG koyaanisqatsi...nice job and nice planning. Way ahead of most.:smokin:
Thanks, so are YOU, RichG. Allow me to link some related ‘old’ GIM threads::coolbeer: When polled about Sci-Fi movies to represent a likely future, 40% of respondents picked Mad Max II - Road Warriors. 13% said, Minority Report, and 10% said, The Stand. http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...ad.php?t=13214 Some thoughts to consider... This country has about 30% gun owners. Persons who are shown to own semi-automatic firearms are much more likely to binge drink (27% of them) than non-automatic owners, this SO THEY SAY, I did not make this up. Guns will get me killed around PEOPLE. I will avoid them, they are part of their own culling mechanisms. IMO Now consider that 30% own guns but only 3% of adults in my state even have a hunting license... and how many of them are really GOOD hunters... and how many must rely on salt licks, quad-runners, baited fields, dogs, or shooting out the window at the deer that eat off the backyard apple tree, etc... I say not many GOOD hunters left. Maybe less than a 1% group of the population these days, IMO There was once a tale of ol' Br'er Rabbit, who begged the wiley fox pleeeze NOT to toss him into the briar patch, so that's just what the fox did -- and the rabbit was like a "possum eatin' saw briars" -- he was happy and safe where none could go. BTW, I have NO desire to kill a grizzly, I tried to send that message to the ursus horriblus, I see them as awesome and magnificent, more than my equal in countless ways, my ego is not needy of proof that I can do the deed of taking such a worthy opponent, especially with a modern firearm. Black bears I just yell angrily and throw rocks at them and they flee, NOT so with a griz... they'll likely take it as a challenge to answer only with a full attack. But I felt it important to convey to each bear that "I CAN DO THE DEED, and SO CAN YOU, SO LET IT BE a man/bear PEACE HERE"... (M.A.D.) it always worked so far... Now I'm just rappin' about stuff Halo, survival I guess. Looking into a grizzly's eyes at 20 feet as you both stand on remote river will teach a man a lot... Laugh at me folks, if you wish, it is fine with me. http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...ad.php?t=17403 These beer drinking, cable TV watching animals have never really been hungry -- unless they missed pulling over at a passing Burger King. I can tell you from fasting on long 5-day hikes what my real experience with hunger is like. I get wrenching pangs of hunger after about 24 hours. Painful and distressing. I weaken progressively and become sluggish and angry, demoralized and self doubting. By the second day, I feel weak, like perhaps a hypoglausemic. I have a constantly returning hunger, like an addict perhaps who needs a fix. All I can think of is food it seems. My higher mind faculties are failing. I become like a stumbling drunk, tripping over roots and simply watching for each footfall I take ahead of me. The second day is desperate. By the third day I felt just about mindless. I can muster a slow walk for perhaps 100 yards and then I stop for a moment to take a rest, perhaps leaning on my hiking stick a lot. Perhaps the third day is the roughest. The body is making a shift now and consuming itself. I remember stumbling across a carelessly discarded can of Pam cooking spray, and an open can of sweet corn that a fisherman had not tossed into the creek before leaving. I sprayed the cooking spray on my hand and licked it off with relish. I smelled the sweet corn and then ate every one of those kernels. It felt good, but I realized I had broken my 5-day fast, which up to now had been only wild mint and pine needle tea. I now felt disgust with myself for seizing this tempting "prize find" like a reformed alcoholic that steals just one quick drink. I finished the trip of 5 days, 53 miles, with my head floating down the trail as if suspended above my disconnected feet proceeding below -- in a daze of stern resolute endurance as I proceed almost like a robot to my car. I had lost about 1 pound per day on the trip. There were great benefits to these trips I took as well, which I need not discuss here now. (I think I became a bit precognizant, earned a second sight, perhaps) The point of all this is simply put here. People with only guns are woefully ill prepared for hard times in a way that relates to people who have provisions. I am sure that if these hungry people want food, perhaps their family is hungry, their bizarre mental state will become greatly a factor in a frightening way. Imagine perhaps "The Night of the Living Dead" except these "zombies" have firearms. http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...hlight=fasting http://ns.gov.gu/scrollapplet/face2.jpg , http://ns.gov.gu/scrollapplet/face1.jpg Sgt. Shoichi Yokoi, a Japanese imperial army straggler who lived in the jungles of Guam for 28 years after World War II ended, died at 5:07 pm Monday Sept 22, 1997 of heart failure at JR Tokai General Hospital in Nagoya Japan. He was 82. Yokoi lived in a tunnel-like, underground cave in a bamboo grove until Jan 24, 1972, when he was discovered near the Talofofo River by hunters. Yokoi, who had been a tailor's apprentice before being drafted in 1941, made clothing from the fibers of wild hibiscus plants and survived on a diet of coconuts, breadfruit, papayas, snails, eels and rats. "We Japanese soldiers were told to prefer death to the disgrace of getting captured alive," Yokoi said in 1972. "The only thing that gave me the strength and will to survive was my faith in myself and that as a soldier of Japan, it was not a disgrace to continue on living," Yokoi said in 1986. No one in the history of humanity, except stragglers later discovered in Philippines, has equaled his record. Few have struggled with loneliness, fear, and self for as long as twenty-eight years. http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...hlight=fasting My endorsement picture for the Mossberg pump and a tribute to the MIGHTY Grizzly, in this case a mother and cub, a shot I took from about 25 feet away, with a .44 mag holstered on my hip... you betcha... but I loved that momma grizzly for letting me get so close to her babys. (Actually THEY GOT CLOSE TO ME) so after this shot, I moved away, believe me. But I had big bears within 20 feet on several occasions (they can catch a horse when close) and saw 100's up close in Alaska. They were all around. We used the phrase "cover me", meaning with your gun, a lot of times, us river guides... but I hope I never shoot a bear. They have so much I do not. So now you are learning my SECRETS... All inside the molded-in cavity of a black plastic Mossberg Maverick 12ga stock... ------------------------- an LCD 'AAA' mini flashlight and extra battery, each one good for 30hrs light 1/3rd of a mylar space blanket 3x3 feet Half a fresh hacksaw balde, handle wrapped with re-useable surgical tape 3' of 28ga single strand steel wire 12 small fish hooks, 4 splitshot sinkers, and 10' of 8lb monofilament line 20 feet sail cord line, thin and strong 3 Safety pins, 2 paper clips, a small nail, a mini sewing kit with needles Tiny magnifyer, and whistle, compass 2 small Bick lighters wrapped carefully so not to empty butane 4 Neosporin foil packets, also good for lip care and fire starter, 2 bandaids, 4 Peptobismol pills, 6 aspirins 60 iodine tablets for 60 qts of sterile water, or even a skin disinfectant 2 small coins for barter (of very base metal) A small toothbrush with the handle sawed off 12"x 6" piece of tinfoil single edge razor blade (talking to AgAu gal about picking a shotgun) http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...t=17403&page=2 1) Keep your weight low, near your 'ideal weight' It allows you to do more, 20lbs overweight is theoretically 20lbs you must carry as dead weight if it is fat, or as hungry muscle to feed, a drain on caloric intake, can also reduce flexibilty even if the extra 20lbs is muscle. In short any inflated body size beyond a certain point, for SURVIVAL alone, can be a big liability. 2) Keep toned and stretched -- and aerobicised. Do stretches each day on the legs and groin area front and back of legs. Such slow stretching techniques are listed lots of places. Speed walking a minimum of 3 times a week is the best for this general toning, I use 10 lb barbells each hand and swing all around, walk fast OFF PAVEMENT nature is almost always IRREGULAR, unless you are a geographic sandy 'flatlander' in location, BTW. I spend some time going straight up a 10-25 degree hill and then down and then back up for 10-15 minutes. Then I step up and over a picnic table 1-2-3 steps and down repeating for maybe 3-5 minutes. Then I do 2 separated wind SPRINTS (no weights here!) of 100yds maybe in the final 10 minutes, alternating some abdominal crunches and some pushups, then chin-ups on monkey bars, alternating walking backwards along the way (uses different muscles) and walk back to my car -- entire routine is about 35 minutes, and I NEVER JOG. I walk, and I run like heck for a short time, my two speeds outdoors. No pavement ever. Like a 'cave man' was designed to do. Joints are built up my way, not torn down IMO. 3) Balance is SO important I have learned to focus on a point lying just 1" below my naval, I believe it is my own center of gravity... So I try and go 'into' just that spot mentally and then stand on one leg for a time, with practice you can do it steadily for minutes, all in concentrating on that spot... after mentally warming up and staying in that 'focus' begin to walk a low beam of some types, maybe a 3-4" landscape timber or less (I use a 3" poly railing imbedded around a kid's playground) Keep practicing and move on to stepping stones... I use the coarse granite stones around a drain culvert and think of myself as a cat as I step on each one I choose, feeling it under my tennis shoes and stepping almost as with 'hands on my feet' as I stay in my 'center of gravity' ready for a stone to roll, and like a cat, I will go weight to the other foot, and find a new perch for my loose foot, or just let that rock roll under my foot a bit, I'm still OK...balance is the key... All of my survival methods I have proposed involve the use of knowledge, spirit and body -- much as a wild animal. Some of you possess only 1 or 2 or even 3 of the 'trinity', as in may range a farm animal to a wild one, any and all of these aspects are always quite OK on the farm... And there are 3 desired essentials of winning a conflict -- know yourself, know your adversary, know your surroundings... in nature the playing field is more even and fair for me and therefore to my advantage... his hoodlum type would become less threat 'out there' to me for sure. NATURE is a relatively mild threat to me. Suffice to say that any and all comments that I have made in this thread involve such a total societal breakdown as in post nuc-attack, or foreign troop's violent occupation, forced incarceration, or certain other desperate survival situations. In order to allow me to maintain any sort of confidence in my own survivability in such a cataclysmic set of events, I have felt compelled here to make a case for being able to subsist somehow far away from the most dangerous sorts of people who would come out of the woodwork and prey on others who had prepared. http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...5287#post75287 Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep my bugout bag is simple, it's my passport, a wad of federal reserve notes, a shank and a piece. LOL
And you are probably just fine with that -- unless we come to the end of an ‘Elliot wave Y cycle’ soon. Before was the ‘Y cycle’ fall of Rome and before that was the fall of Egypt. But I know you are joking, Anty dear. And what to look forward to at the culmination of the survival ordeal? Well… if you have carried a small sack of GOLD with you… You’d be alrighty-OK at your journey’s end… And now some of Koy's selected quotes which is my usual style of finish… this on a VERY long post, #777 it is, post #21 in this thread, after I waited 7 days of silence since the last poster to reply... so just laugh at me... only once more. ------------------------ “I shall be telling this with a sigh - Somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference” ~Robert Frost “Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason.” - Jerry Seinfeld “Seinfeld does not attack traditional values in an effort to establish some other mode of life. It is not the counter-culture, trying to establish the validity of alternative lifestyles. Seinfeld doesn’t care. The real downfall of pop culture today is not that it attacks traditional values, but that it presents a world with no values whatsoever.” http://www.massnews.com/past_issues/...May/maysan.htm “This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper” ~T.S. Elliot “For the want of a nail the shoe was lost, For the want of a shoe the horse was lost, For the want of a horse the rider was lost, For the want of a rider the battle was lost, For the want of a battle the kingdom was lost, And all for the want of a horse-shoe nail.” “A small leak will sink a great ship.” Poor Richard's Almanac ~Ben Franklin "If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matthew 15:14 "Leaders think and talk about the solutions. Followers think and talk about the problems." ~Brian Tracey "By perseverance the snail reached the ark." ~Charles H. Spurgeon "Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you." ~Aldous Huxley "And like that... he's gone." http://www.moviewavs.com/0058493028/...pects/gone.wav ~Verbal, in the 1995 movie, The Usual Suspects ------------------------ Man can become like any animal he wants. Animals offer models of behavior and skills. The fabulously resourceful and adaptable 170lb mammal called ’Man’ can encompass this understanding, and prepare and adapt with resourcefulness to any survival situation. Man is likely to blame for the extinction of the Wooly Mammoth. Man is the greatest of all creatures -- and the least. But he is rightfully the most feared animal on Earth, by animals and by me. Yet Noble MAN is becoming a hive animal... Be the few remaining 'golden' ones. And yes also, "Gold is Money!" I am a truly good guy, really…. But if pushed way too hard I can be almost like… a cat. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...507_cougar.jpg http://www.wildlifevideo.com/sounds/Couprr.wav That's all folks! -- I am about to VANISH from here, gone. No food for me. http://www.beartrackersden.com/beartracker/cougpr3.jpg

money matters | 04-28-2006 05:16 AM
Re: My Primary Bug-Out-Bag, and a 2nd one for Contingency Supplies Koy, You could give Ian Flemmngs armorer Q, instructions. Quite the novella you've written and compiled here. I see nothing but a romantic perspective here. This will get you killed. The night vision and the tent that takes up almost 1/4 of the weight you allocate to carry are all the proof I need that you have nary a clue as to what E&E (bugging-out) is about. Hope you have a place to go to, a destination. Still think a nice set of armored trinovids or Steiner 8X56 nighthunters would give you 100 times more use than the night vision stuff. And after I found a couple of empty 9mm cases in a batch of once fired 38 Special cases I just bought, I am certain that a 38 can run rings around a 9mm Parabellum; the 38 has a bout 40% more capacity, and does not need recoil to cycle the slide, so you could shoot 36 cal lead balls on up to +P's. I think full size space blankets and a coated nylon fly would give you more flexibilty than carrying a tent. Wishing you the best of luck

Anty Ep | 04-28-2006 09:25 AM
shank, sidearm, passport, wad of FRNs Koy, that is a really long and interesting post. Thanks. Over a decade (or two? or more) ago back when I was a teenager or adolescent, I recall the exhilartation of "Red Dawn" and the survival craze. I'd already explored the topic in BSA, and then spent years at gun shows and so forth. When the internet hit I trolled all the best stuff I could find. I am sure some of you guys would enjoy my library which includes several Paladin press titles including ones about how to fix up your "survival redoubt" so to speak. Yes the Bugoutbag is a well known accoutrement and one that each person highly enjoys putting together. Since then, I have continued my recreational shooting, but I like to talk about it less and less. Also, since then, I have tried to focus my time on developing "survival skills" which are more useful in the world as it is, not just how we fear -- or wish-- it might be. Hence my tongue in cheek reply :coolbeer:

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