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Corporate_slave | 01-13-2010 05:30 PM
Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: So the wife and I are looking to get self-sufficient. We're looking to start a hydroponic garden in the garage. We're also thinking about building some portable solar carts, with a battery bank in the garage as well... We're gonna start small so that mistakes are cheap, plus we're broke as hell. So, at this point, I'm thinking about growing dwarf wheat, and getting a home mill grinder. Then, I want to build one solar cart to provide power for the hydro setup. Anybody have a better suggestion for a starter crop (4 - 8) plants. Perhaps something that is more difficult to kill, or more usefull than wheat? Also, anybody know how to make PV cells and deep cycle high capacity batteries from scratch?

Publico, Pro Se | 01-13-2010 05:32 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: How are you going to light the area?

Corporate_slave | 01-13-2010 05:38 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: I'm gonna ask my good friends at GIM what the best light source is for the crop I decide on...

Publico, Pro Se | 01-13-2010 05:51 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Quote:
I'm gonna ask my good friends at GIM what the best light source is for the crop I decide on...
Then what crop are you going to grow? I think you are over planning for something that's not even on the drawing board. Talking about batteries and such, before any other necessary crop decisions and lighting equipment is like Chapter 8 in an graduate level college course. You need to start with Indoor Crops 101, Indoor Garden Lighting 104, then Hydroponics 201.

Corporate_slave | 01-13-2010 05:55 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Rental property... Possibly thinking about edible landscaping... Down the road... In the meantime, I can (only) throw about $100 - $200 a month at this, but as the food I grow starts to save money, I will put the saved money back into it as well. Hand watered, or reseviour style hydro = not terribly expensive. Not sure about the lighting yet... It depends on the plants. I can get individual PV cells for about $2 - $3 a piece, and I can solder them myself... Any ideas / suggestions on my questions, or just more finger-poking?

MNeagle | 01-13-2010 05:58 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Ask your landlord if you can have a garden. Also, a lot of communities offer 'community gardens'. Check if one is available in your area.

Publico, Pro Se | 01-13-2010 06:06 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Start with good potting soil supplemented with a good fertilizer program. You can reuse the soil several times. I would start with a 400 or 600 watt HPS on a light track to cover an 8 by 3 area for 24 sq.ft. As for hydro here's some ideas. Good luck.

Corporate_slave | 01-13-2010 06:10 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: I'm getting a great deal on rent in a house that's under water... Every drop of sweat I put into this earth is just wasted toil... Hydro in the garage will always be mine, wherever we end up... We (my wife and I) aren't waiting until TSHTF. Everything we do from here on, is geared towards doing everything ourselves. We plan to live as though it has already happened so that it won't be such a shock if it does... And then enjoy everyday we have until then. The upside is lower monthly expenses, fresh organic food, and the pride in knowing that we don't >need< much from anyone... No matter where we are...

Corporate_slave | 01-13-2010 06:22 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Got a link on that methane Digester? What does it do?

Corporate_slave | 01-13-2010 06:28 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: As for batteries and PVs, I want to start experimenting with making my own, so that I have sort of an idea on how to make my own if I need to, and take it more seriously if I get good at it. I'm real big into electronics, sort of a self-taught electrical engineering journyman if you will. I do professional sound and lighting by trade... What do the plants need from those lamps to help them thrive? Heat? UV? What else?

Professur | 01-13-2010 07:20 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Long story short ... you're not going to build batteries yourself for less than you can buy them. You might get old batteries and refurbish them, but last time I checked, that required a hazmat qualification and can go south on you in a hurry. If you're paying your own electric, you'll be hard pressed to save enough on food to cover the cost ... and you can expect a visit from the local PD when the electric company notices the sudden increase in consumption.

nickelless | 01-13-2010 08:24 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: At the risk of sounding obvious, do you already have several months worth of food stashed away? If not, THAT is where you should start. Otherwise, how can you survive until your crops are ready?

Saoirse | 01-13-2010 08:28 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: How bad, if at all, does the methane smell? And if it smells bad, how do you control it / place it?

MetalMoney | 01-13-2010 08:39 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: I just built two solar panels to play with a bit. FYI: After completing it, Im happy with the results, but do not recommend you go this route. The cost vs. reliability etc. is not worth the trade off. I found these panels to be a pretty good deal. They work well in hot climates. Teh only drawback is they output 60v instead of the more practical 12v. If you mix this with teh right battery charger, it all works out the same in the end... For about $500 (a couple months o fyour budget) you can get 4 panels and the charger and have 200 - 250 watts of PV running. Probably way more than youd need to keep a small water pump and a couple of grow lights going. http://www.solarblvd.com/product_inf...lar-Panel.html

2110 | 01-13-2010 08:46 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Quote:
Originally Posted by damoc (Post 2124698) start simple why hydroponics? do you have room for garden or greenhouse? where you dont need hi tech pumps and lighting. if your broke as hell photovotaics are an expensive way to start going for growing food especially when plants will do just fine with sunlight
...and wheat berries are cheap as hell at the local food co-op.

Corporate_slave | 01-13-2010 09:14 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: I want to >know< how to build a high capacity battery so that I don't have to experiment in the dark... I could care less if the PD shows up because I'm not growing pot or making meth. I'm curious about opinions on growing WHEAT in my garage with a reseviour style hydroponic system. Is there any particular food plant that is signifigantly easier to start with than WHEAT? Is there a particular food plant that might be more useful than WHEAT? Does anyone on this forum have signifigant experience with growing WHEAT that may be able to give me pointers on the nutrients needed to grow it more effectively? Anyone got any links to YouTube videos on making homemade PV CELLS (not panels) and high capacity batteries? I'm not trying to save money in the beginning here... I'm trying to build up a sizeable portable hydro garden, and solar plant... The money saving will happen down the road when it is all working the way I want it to...

Corporate_slave | 01-13-2010 09:43 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: $5 of wheat is about 10 lbs. Maybe more. I could feed my family enough bread to last us a month on that. And I could harvest every 60 days. I could double production, or diversify for almost no additional cost... I can go to the grocery store and buy some leeched-out "fortified" wheat every few weeks for now, but what happens if the store closes down? Don't be an ass-hole... The $100 - $200 a month is an investment. After 6 months, I'll have invested @ $900 into my garden and solar projects. Damn stupid? Really?

PastTense | 01-13-2010 09:46 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: OP, You are headed in the wrong direction. When TSHTF, you can forget about complicated technology--it will break down and can't/won't be fixed. If your landlord won't let you garden on his land, put an ad in Craigslist... There are huge numbers of elderly people who used to have a garden but can't handle the physical labor any more. I am sure there are some who will let you garden on their land for a share of the produce.

Professur | 01-13-2010 09:46 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: I'm looking for the design plans for a 1900's battery for ya, but one thing you have to understand is that selecting an acid-proof container is the single most important step. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery This gives an overview of how today's batteries are assembled.

Corporate_slave | 01-13-2010 09:51 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: I can fix the technology so long as I know how it's made (hence my quest for knowledge.) great idea on gardening for the elderly... It can even be written off as a volunteer activity / community service...

Corporate_slave | 01-13-2010 09:55 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Thanks!! That would be perfect!!! Now the next STUPID question... How would I find these materials without going to home depot or radio shack or lowes, or eBay or craig's list? Think post SHTF...

Mantokir | 01-13-2010 09:59 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Cheap Garden - http://www.squarefootgardening.com/ All you need is some wood, compost, peat moss and vermaculite. Build box, put "dirt" in it, put seeds in dirt, water. Hardly any weeds, uses the cheapest light source around, takes up very little space. Don't have to worry about making the current soil better. 4'x4' box will hold 16 different plants. Got pests? You can build a cage for it... Cold? Build a little greenhouse...

branshew | 01-13-2010 10:00 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: With 4-8 hydro wheat plants, you'd be lucky to get a tablespoon of flour. You couldn't grow enough hydro wheat to feed your family in a cost effective manner. Besides, wheat doesn't really lend itself to hydro too well. You're better off growing leafy vegetables, herbs, etc... I agree with being as self sufficient as you can, but at the same time you need to realize that you can't realistically do everything. Do as much as you can to be self sustaining and get good at something and use that something to get you other things that you need. If SHTF, I'm sure people would be willing to trade items you want/need for fresh vegetables - especially in January. I grew plenty of "vegetables" with a nice hydro setup while in college. A cheap hydro setup can be made for @ $75 with a 4' section of aluminum gutter, a few 4" pots (or plastic cups), potting medium, an aquarium water pump, a timer and a water reservoir. Lettuce grows very well in hydro and grows quickly and easily. Stagger your growing cycles for continuous harvest. This hydro setup is best for shorter plants in smaller pots. As to the lighting question, I like to use metal halide and mercury vapor lamps specific for indoor growing. Either will work fine and they put out a lot of light. But at 400 or 1000 Watts they draw a lot of power. In the setup above you could get by with a 2 bulb 4' flourescent fixture that would draw a lot less power. If you go with flourescent, spend the extra to buy the grow light bulbs as their color spectrum is better than standard flo tubes. Hydro can be easy, but there is a steep learning curve compared to growing in dirt (which is why I suggested starting with lettuce). The process is less forgiving of mistakes like over or under fertilization, too much or too little water, etc. You can easily burn the plants with too much fertilizer and the medium dries out quickly so frequent soak and drain cycles are required. You don't want the roots soaking in water full time. Once you get past the learning curve and figure out the best way to run your specific setup it becomes much more automatic. Don't forget the micronutrients. Happy growing.

scyth | 01-13-2010 10:09 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Corporate slave - If it were me, in a rental place (and I'm assuming you are urban/suburban) here would be some priorities: 1.) A stash of drinking water and a portable water filter. If it comes down, fill the bathtub and don't use the water heater for wash/shower water. People can live without food far longer than water. 2.) A stash of food with long storage capability. Grains are cheap, protein more expensive. 3.) Fuel. Everything from cooking fuel to automotive/generator. 4.) Medical supplies, up to your ability to administer. Maybe take some first aid courses. 5.) Tools and weapons. 6.) Good relations with your neighbors. I realize this may not be possible, depending on where you live, and who you/they think each other is. That should make the first few months of prep go by in a flash, and greatly improve your chances of surviving, if any kind of a major event goes down. Imagine you are living in Port au Prince right now................ scyth

nub | 01-13-2010 10:19 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: I'm not being a smart ahole either, but........ If you invested $ 900.00 into buckets and wheat, you'd have quite a stash.

Professur | 01-13-2010 10:23 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Quote:
Originally Posted by Corporate_slave (Post 2125180) Thanks!! That would be perfect!!! Now the next STUPID question... How would I find these materials without going to home depot or radio shack or lowes, or eBay or craig's list? Think post SHTF...
Um, you wouldn't. Most of the materials required to build batteries have been illegal to own without special permits (see my earlier post) since the '50s. Lead sheets 'can' be had if you can find a radiology clinic that's renovating/moving/closing. Alternately, tracking down a metal recycler may net you some sheet, but I'd be surprised if they can sell to you. Sulfuric acid can be found at either automotive supply or pool supply. Making your own can be done if you've got access to 'Fool's gold'. Be careful, it's an energetic reaction.

Corporate_slave | 01-13-2010 11:19 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: You Tube
You Tube
What would be the yield on this small crop? And no, that's not me...

scyth | 01-13-2010 11:53 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Corporate slave - Here's some meat-axe math An acre = 43,560 square feet. Palouse winter wheat = average 83 bushels per acre (some of the highest yields in the world.) I don't know what an hydroponic setup would yield. Assume you have a 24'x24' garage and set up a 20'x20' hydroponics area. That is .009183 of an acre. Converting that to bushels, that is .7621 bushels per year, if everything goes just right. A bushel of wheat is 60 pounds. So you end up with 45.726 pounds of wheat annually, Once you get the crop in and dried safely, figuring no loss. So, per month you have a ration of 3.810 pounds of wheat. Per day (using 30 days per month avg.) that works out to .1270 pounds of wheat. Or 2.032 ounces, for you and your family. I would reconsider your investment. scyth

Corporate_slave | 01-14-2010 12:02 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: You're factoring one harvest per year... Multiply that by 4...

Corporate_slave | 01-14-2010 12:16 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Most of you guys are focused on "survival preps" and you're missing my point. I want to be self-sufficient. If I can get a pound of flour every three months, then that is certainly better than freaking out when my "preps" are all gone... If I can master a worthwhile desalinization technique, then I won't have to watch my child shrivel up and die after my bathtub runs dry. If I can make a decent enough homemade battery bank and solar system, I can burn the midnight oil without concern for how much diesel I have left in my generator...

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thrifty_bob | 01-14-2010 12:39 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelless (Post 2125022) At the risk of sounding obvious, do you already have several months worth of food stashed away? If not, THAT is where you should start. Otherwise, how can you survive until your crops are ready?
Or be saving enough money up to get out of there to somewhere your toil isn't wasted. Whatever you build will have to be portable enough to move? As far as PV based systems, I keep seeing ads for these "build your own panels for $100 or $200 ea". Are those legit or just a scam? If it made sense to do PV stuff, I would think generating power to charge up or run things around the home would be the obvious 1st steps, assuming you are paying your own electric. But given that you are renting, I doubt you want to be messing with the main electrical systems to patch in a battery and PV based system, so you would need to use it for things that would use power in the garage, say, like recharging an electric motorcycle or bike. PV is hard enough to justify without those kinds of obstacles. I do admire that you are trying to make forward progress, but given your lack of funds, I think I'd be spending the same time/effort trying to figure a way to make enough money to get out of there, and get someplace where you can put time, effort and money into things that are yours and can stay put long term.. As for growing wheat hydroponically, I think that's lunacy when you could just go buy it so cheap that the pails, lids, bags and o2 absorbers cost as much as the wheat in them. And you have a garage you could put them in. And the wheat will keep a long time. I have 20 6 gal pails of various grains and beans and it didn't cost much at all because I bought much of the stuff at the grocery store when it was on sale rather than paying ridiculous prices for "prep" foods on the web + shipping. Why not take 1/2 of the money you were thinking to spend and saving it to get out, and put the other 1/2 into cheap preps to feed your family 1 yrs worth, buying some of it each month till you have a yrs worth, and then rotating stock each month as you use it. I have all the money I could ever want, and that's what I do.

AMforPM | 01-14-2010 12:55 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: My personal choice has been to stockpile cheap long keeping things like grains and beans and grow highly productive in a small space veggies. But I can relate to the concept of self sufficiency. I can grow enough grain for our hens and us in part of the 2 lots, but I think wheat would be stolen and will choose probably a millet. That is what I have seed for now, subject to learning more and switching. I'd go with amaranth that sneers at drought, but have read hens can't eat it. edit to add: those methane digesters sound like a great idea. I would even add our sewage in a total SHTF because we would switch from using valuable water to flush and use a potty chair, and digesting that waste (I think) leaves behind degermed fertilizer. If I was uncertain about germs I could just use the digested stuff on the fruit trees and crops that do not touch the ground with the edible portion.

thrifty_bob | 01-14-2010 12:57 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Quote:
Originally Posted by nub (Post 2125220) I'm not being a smart ahole either, but........ If you invested $ 900.00 into buckets and wheat, you'd have quite a stash.
Pails and lids with bags and o2 abs are sub $10 ea, so 30 of them would be say $300 max and 30 bu of wheat would be less than another $300. Freeze it a bunch at a time in the freezer for a week to kill any bugs before sealing up. Honestly, though, just having wheat is silly. Stock up on what your family will eat that is storeable, I say, and don't store more of it than you will normally use up by the time it will go bad on you. For example, I have 75 lbs of pasta, 200 lbs of rice, 200 lbs of flour, 75 lbs of sugar, 20 lbs of coffe, 10 lbs of tea, 100 qts of spaghetti sauce, 60 cans of sardines, 60 lbs of different kinds of dried beans, 25 lbs of pancake mix, 15 gal cooking oil, cases of canned vegs, cases of canned soups, peanut butter, honey, etc, etc, etc

thrifty_bob | 01-14-2010 01:00 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Quote:
Originally Posted by AMforPM (Post 2125492) My personal choice has been to stockpile cheap long keeping things like grains and beans and grow highly productive in a small space veggies. But I can relate to the concept of self sufficiency. I can grow enough grain for our hens and us in part of the 2 lots, but I think wheat would be stolen and will choose probably a millet. That is what I have seed for now, subject to learning more and switching. I'd go with amaranth that sneers at drought, but have read hens can't eat it.
On our deck I plant radishes, lettuce, spinach, bush beans, cherry tomatoes in 24" planters and pots along the railings and on the deck. It basically provides fresh greens about 1/2 the year and the cost is minimal.

Publico, Pro Se | 01-14-2010 01:48 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Quote:
Originally Posted by Corporate_slave (Post 2125417) I want to be self-sufficient. If I can get a pound of flour every three months, then that is certainly better than freaking out when my "preps" are all gone...
Not wanting to sound like an a-hole but if you're shooting for a pound of flour every three months you'll die of hunger first. I'd first focus on growing food the natural way, outdoors. (I get your want of wanting to have batteries to power lights, a refrig, etc. but to power lights enough to grow food for your family is not an option imho unless you have a mini-hydroelectric power plant producing 30K watts.)

Corporate_slave | 01-14-2010 05:44 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Wheat would just be the start, and with 4 4' x 4' hydro boxes planted at 3 month intervals with Aegis Wheat (specially bred for NASA to take 60 - 75 days to harvest, and grows to 18" tall) I could have about 3 - 4 lbs. per month. It would take apprx. 3 600 watt fixtures which would draw less than 15 amps at 120v. I'd need 6 aquarium rock bubblers that would draw squat < 500 mA. I'd need a battery bank capable of feeding a 2 Kw 24v inverter (2 banks wired in series of 6 600 watt 12v deep cycle batteries wired in parallel.). I'd need 6 carts with 4 50w 12v PV panels wired in parallel to charge them. I can't do all this right off the bat, but as a goal for phase 1, I think it's pretty good...

Tn...Andy | 01-14-2010 07:17 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Quote:
Originally Posted by thrifty_bob (Post 2125460) As far as PV based systems, I keep seeing ads for these "build your own panels for $100 or $200 ea". Are those legit or just a scam?
Scam mostly.....they want to sell you a book for 49.99 that pretend you "can power you house" for a few hundred bucks worth of parts "available at any hardware store". CS: I think you are underestimating the lamp power required to effectively grow things ( compared to sunlight ) and overestimating the power you can produce from some roll around panels, or store in batteries......I say this as the owner of a 3kw of panels on active trackers, and a battery that weighs 3,000 lbs. http://www.digistash.com/data/026a39...2_p125114.jpeg http://www.digistash.com/data/026a39...2_p125182.jpeg As advised above, you would do better to store a year's worth of food, as much water as you can ( and set up collection/filtration from your roof ), and enough firepower to hold off someone else taking it away from you. Once you have that basic level, save/look for your own place to do things you can't do at a rental. That's my 2 cents, do with it what you will.......my bases are covered.

Banjo | 01-14-2010 07:19 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Quote:
Originally Posted by damoc (Post 2125181) sorry i am not meaning to sound like an ahole but i just dont think you are thinking right YES damn stupid and if the store closes down there is a very good chance so did your grid which you WILL be dependent on to grow wheat in your garage on a 100 to 200 dolars a month budget. hey im all for you experimenting with solar and batteries and growing go for it but you titled this thread self sufficiency baby steps but what you are wanting to do is steps backwards over a cliff. and you asked for opinions about growing wheat in your garage and i told you im surprised more havent agreed with me. i wont bother your thread anymore
I agree. Growing wheat in the garage is a bad idea. Spend your money in other ways.

Professur | 01-14-2010 08:41 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Why wheat anyways? There's far better nutrient density foods to select, I'm sure. http://www.ccmr.cornell.edu/educatio...SolarCells.pdf I expect Titanium oxide will be in short supply when TSHTF, but you can always grow the blackberries. There is this method http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/e...html#solarcell but as the author explains, to get 1000W from it, you'd need several football fields of copper sheet. About 8 million dollars worth of copper, by his estimate. But this is the science of it. I'm going to do something I shouldn't and make a suggestion. I think you're overlooking the most simple form of solar energy .... reflection. Instead of trying to store and transmit solar power as electricity, build yourself reflectors to direct the sun where you want it to go. With some elbow grease, you might push a mirror array to 90% efficiency. I'm not the one to ask, but I'm pretty sure that outstrips the most efficient PV array out there.

branshew | 01-14-2010 08:50 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Quote:
Originally Posted by Corporate_slave (Post 2125725) Wheat would just be the start, and with 4 4' x 4' hydro boxes planted at 3 month intervals with Aegis Wheat (specially bred for NASA to take 60 - 75 days to harvest, and grows to 18" tall) I could have about 3 - 4 lbs. per month. It would take apprx. 3 600 watt fixtures which would draw less than 15 amps at 120v. I'd need 6 aquarium rock bubblers that would draw squat < 500 mA. I'd need a battery bank capable of feeding a 2 Kw 24v inverter (2 banks wired in series of 6 600 watt 12v deep cycle batteries wired in parallel.). I'd need 6 carts with 4 50w 12v PV panels wired in parallel to charge them. I can't do all this right off the bat, but as a goal for phase 1, I think it's pretty good...
I like your thought and there are certainly some things that you can do to move towards self sufficiency, but you will never be self sufficient living in an apartment building in the city. Period. I have 1/2 acre in the suburbs and even I'm not under the illusion that I could be completely self sufficient. You need to go beyond self sufficiency and think about survival since you're in the city. I am no expert, but I have studied and practiced food crop production extensively (I have a BS in horticulture). With the whole wheat thing you're fooling yourself on many levels. You are also not accounting for weight lost in milling. Once you separate the husk, chaff, etc. you're not going to get enough to live on. Get a good millstone to grind it too. If SHTF, there is a much better chance of you being able to obtain some type of grains than fresh vegetables. You can't live on wheat carbs alone - you'll need protein (beans) and minerals/vitamins from vegetables. You can also get the carbs in wheat from other vegetables. For your own enjoyment (and sanity) I would really focus on growing vegetables initially. Do a test crop of wheat if you want to test out your hypothesis on production, but I wouldn't spend time or effort growing wheat for such a little return/reward.

Publico, Pro Se | 01-14-2010 09:35 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Here's the series that CS posted part 6 about growing wheat inside with hydroponics under lights: Part 1 (1:20): <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HAKngFce_Ec&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HAKngFce_Ec&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> Part 2 (2:13): <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/YUYXQzQwFag&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/YUYXQzQwFag&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> Part 3 (1:12): <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6QaemrWE6fs&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6QaemrWE6fs&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> Part 4 (2:03): <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mo9wots2cJw&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/mo9wots2cJw&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> Part 5 (2:30): <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/pGc0CShY1T4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/pGc0CShY1T4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> Part 6 (2:49): <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vQvAGTWodv4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vQvAGTWodv4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> After watch the series it is a very fact - free video. First, what is the size of the room, the total watts and lumens per square foot, reflective materials around the plants, the height of the light from the plants, length of time the light is on each day, the ppm of the solution he's using, the growth curve measured via water use (how much water and fertilizer solution is he adding each day), and how often does he flush and rinse the growing medium? And if anybody has a youtube account pass it along to Mr. Wheat Grower that the yellowing of the leaves problem is one of two things; he's using tap water and not distilled (or r/o) water and thus suffering a nutrient lock out, or the pH level is way off and he needs to flush and rinse with pure water over night his rock materials like I asked above. And I'd triple the number of plants - pack them in there, let no light hit the floor. CS, I see the functionality of growing wheat inside after SHTF like situation where wheat is not available. Needing just a handful of seeds you could could get a year's supply of seed to grow enough wheat outdoors - indoors from the above videos I'd say you'd need a six car garage plus sized area to grow enough wheat for a family of four to have a pound of wheat (flour) a day. Waste of resources. (But stick with your hobby of solar cells and such. It's a hobby until you can make functional daily use of the end product.)

Corporate_slave | 01-14-2010 11:10 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: I am absolutely loving the facts and figures. I'm starting to feel like I'm getting somewhere! I live in the outskirts of town - 1 house per block. We have dirt out here... Not soil. Do you think it's possible to convert a 2 car garage into a famine avoiding food production facility for a family of 4? I'm not talking about getting fat... just not dying of hunger... If so, what crops should I grow? I can build just about any structure I need. I'm thinking about building towards a two-tier system, and then making a small herb garden in the extra spaces in the kitchen... I know this will take a couple of years to finish, but that's a reasonable time-table for me. What should I grow first? What will be forgiving enough, but still useful enough? How would you folks lay out a two-tier system in a two car garage? How much heat do plants need? What do plants actually need from lights? Do they need the full spectrum? Or should I focus on UV? Thanks to everyone for the valuable input! I truly appreciate it. I'm putting this together one step at a time - baby steps; but I need a master plan so I can keep moving in the right direction...

Publico, Pro Se | 01-14-2010 11:40 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Quote:
Originally Posted by Corporate_slave (Post 2126079) I am absolutely loving the facts and figures. I'm starting to feel like I'm getting somewhere! I live in the outskirts of town - 1 house per block. We have dirt out here... Not soil. Do you think it's possible to convert a 2 car garage into a famine avoiding food production facility for a family of 4? I'm not talking about getting fat... just not dying of hunger... If so, what crops should I grow? I can build just about any structure I need. I'm thinking about building towards a two-tier system, and then making a small herb garden in the extra spaces in the kitchen... I know this will take a couple of years to finish, but that's a reasonable time-table for me. What should I grow first? What will be forgiving enough, but still useful enough? How would you folks lay out a two-tier system in a two car garage? How much heat do plants need? What do plants actually need from lights? Do they need the full spectrum? Or should I focus on UV? Thanks to everyone for the valuable input! I truly appreciate it. I'm putting this together one step at a time - baby steps; but I need a master plan so I can keep moving in the right direction...
I would aim for (eventually) a garage sized greenhouse (replace the roof of your garage?) using HPS as supplemental lighting. In the middle of winter some plants may need a "longer" day then what mother nature provides. As for all your other questions, there is a steep learning curve. Such as how much heat do plants need... that depends, cauliflower and it's relatives love cool to cold conditions where as in the same conditions you'd be lucky to get corn to germinate. Like somebody said, start with Square Foot Gardening.

Corporate_slave | 01-14-2010 11:45 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: My wife and I spend about 2 - 6 hours a day studying on the Internet. We're not going for a degree... We just want to know... Everything! Please help with links and videos!!!

Professur | 01-14-2010 12:33 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Be warned that much of what you read on the web isn't 100 accurate. Take everything with a grain of salt.

Tn...Andy | 01-14-2010 01:33 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Really ?? .....................

Professur | 01-14-2010 01:45 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: So I've heard. A friend with hydroponics experience was reading over my shoulder and asked what mold control method you've planned.

Corporate_slave | 01-14-2010 03:50 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Mold control???

Professur | 01-14-2010 03:59 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Apparently mold growth is a significant problem with indoor hydroponics

branshew | 01-14-2010 08:26 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Quote:
Originally Posted by Professur (Post 2126714) Apparently mold growth is a significant problem with indoor hydroponics
It can be. So can Algae which will rob nutrients from the plants that you are growing. Corporate Slave - 2 quick questions before I add any more to this thread - 1) What USDA climactic zone do you live in? 2) Are you in the desert or some other area where water is restricted?

Corporate_slave | 01-14-2010 10:45 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: I'm in the way way south - sub-tropical - always hot, lots of rain in the summer, and none in the winter... Some water restrictions in the winter... Please add!

Libertytree | 01-15-2010 12:17 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: I've got to laugh...this is insane! Corp, it seems you will not listen to what folks are telling you. Furthermore, if you're in a subtropical region, you have better options for growing food outside than for taking up valuable garage space. Sure you ain't out on the boat trollin'?

thorgrim | 01-15-2010 03:20 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: I also don't like the indoor hydroponics idea. Especially with wheat. I have access to 160 acres and plan on starting to farm some of it part time this spring and I am not considering wheat. It is too labor intensive to grow in large quantities unless you are using machinery (expensive) to harvest and process it. I will get much more bang for my dollar and time raising grass fed organic beef and chickens. Organic meat and eggs is super expensive to buy. If you are determined to try the indoor hydroponics, grow expensive vegetables and salad greens. You will get more bang for your buck. Wheat is dirt cheap and stores for a very long time. Tomatoes, peppers, mini cucumbers, etc are expensive and perishable. They would provide vitamins, minerals, enzymes and other nutrients that might be harder to get in storable food. To break this down for you. One tomato plant grown hydroponically could yield 10-20lbs of tomatoes and save you $2-3 a lb. A few pounds of wheat is going to save you a dollar or two? I bought the wheat I stored directly from a farmer for 0.20 a pound. $100 gets me 500 lbs of wheat. What I would recommend for your situation other then storing plenty of wheat is to sprout a variety of seeds in glass jars placed by a window in the house. This is very cheap and will supplement your vegetable intake. Lots of different sprouts to choose from, including all that stored wheat. Spend your 100-200 a month elsewhere.

Andy9999 | 01-15-2010 06:40 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Quote:
Originally Posted by Corporate_slave (Post 2125417) Most of you guys are focused on "survival preps" and you're missing my point. I want to be self-sufficient. If I can get a pound of flour every three months, then that is certainly better than freaking out when my "preps" are all gone... If I can master a worthwhile desalinization technique, then I won't have to watch my child shrivel up and die after my bathtub runs dry. If I can make a decent enough homemade battery bank and solar system, I can burn the midnight oil without concern for how much diesel I have left in my generator...
how much electricity you will use for your growing,it is fun to do it, but unsustainable,60 days for one slice of bread,not like I,m trying be a smart ass, but garden would make more sense. :thumb.aspx: make YOUR OWN COMPOST,REBUILT SOIL,START GARDEN,save money what you are spending for hydro chemicals and buy food for it,this can be good for fun but not for survival

thrifty_bob | 01-15-2010 08:42 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Why not raise worms and fish in barrels? Build a little solar powered pump system for it if PV powerr is your dream...

branshew | 01-16-2010 04:06 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Quote:
Originally Posted by Corporate_slave (Post 2126079) Do you think it's possible to convert a 2 car garage into a famine avoiding food production facility for a family of 4? I'm not talking about getting fat... just not dying of hunger...
Now I am confused. Are you interested in self sufficiency as you indicated or are you interested in surviving famine if SHTF. Although you originally indicated sufficiency, I�ll assume with the quote above that you are thinking about survival as well. The answer to your question of could you grow enough food in a 2 car garage to feed a family of 4 over a year is �.. maybe. There are a lot of factors involved and I wouldn�t put a high probability on it for several reasons. Consider these points: 1) Hydro growing, like growing in dirt, requires constant input of nutrients. In hydro growing, nutrients get absorbed by the plant or washed away to the reservoir to be pumped in again. Eventually the water gets changed and the leftover nutrients are lost. In hydro, you�re using processed chemicals for nutrients as well as water conditioning, pH balance, etc. If SHTF, do you really think that you will be able to get an adequate supply of hydro nutrients, pH adjusters, etc.? You can�t just put Miracle Grow in there. 2) Depending on the sq. ft of your 2 car garage, you would probably need @ 12,000 watts of light running 24/7 to get multiple, consistent harvests throughout the year. You will also need pumps running, fans for air circulation and ventilation, mnost likely an AC unit or 2 in the summer to keep temps down (12K watts of HPS or Halide lamps would put off a lot of heat). Any idea what that would do to your power consumption? What would that do to your solar setup? Is power going to be reliable enough in a SHTF scenario to keep growing? 2-3 days of no power (no lights and no water pumps) and that could kill everything. 3) What about fresh water? Lots of people on this board are stocking up on water purification supplies so that should tell you something about the possibility of a water shortage. No water = no hydro. At least a soil setup would be able to use rainwater and collected rainwater. (Contrary to another post on this board, it is not necessary to use distilled water in a hydro setup. You can use tap water that has had the chlorine evaporated out, but you need to make sure the pH is balanced). You don't want to use rainwater in hydro unless you want to accelerate fungal and algae problems. Distilling the amount of rainwater needed for the size hydro setup you are talking about would be a challenge. 4) You�re not going to get anywhere growing wheat. According to the USDA, wheat consumption in the US was 137 lbs per capita in 2008. You would need to produce over 500 lbs or about the yield of 1/3 acre +/- non irrigated wheat to feed your family of 4. It would take your whole garage and multiple harvests and you still may not get there. Even if you could grow that much wheat, you can�t live on wheat alone. 5) Here�s another way to look at it � Commercial farming is a manufacturing business. Raw materials in � finished product out. Like any other business, commercial farmers are looking for the most profit. The best way to make a profit is to minimize input costs and maximize output product. If hydro farming was a profitable way to farm then we would see a lot more of it, especially in countries and areas where farm land is scarce. Use Japan as an example. Japan has little viable farmland, but the Japanese are some of the most efficient and resourceful manufacturers on the planet. If anyone could have figured out a way to make hydro farming work, it would be the Japanese. Unfortunately the inputs (labor & materials) exceed the outputs (food) in most cases. From my experience, the only way to get ahead growing hydro involves breaking the law. Quote:
Originally Posted by Corporate_slave (Post 2126079) I live in the outskirts of town - 1 house per block. We have dirt out here... Not soil.
You would be well advised to help yourself create a "soil." Compost every plant matter that you can and add as much organic matter to your yard as you can. Even lawns can take a topdressing of compost. If you have grass, use a composting mower. Unlike a hydro setup, soils have the capability to absorb and release nutrients. In soil, the nutrients stay (unless you�re in a rainforest). The other advantage of soils is that you can import readily available organic matter to consistently replenish the soils (leaves, plant matter, manures, etc.) I'm not sure what the outskirts of town actually means, but to me that indicates that you may also be able to have a chicken coop. That would go a long way towards your protein requirements. Remember, being self sufficient doesn't mean that you actually have to produce everything that you consume. It means being able to obtain everything that you need from what you can produce.

thorgrim | 01-16-2010 05:24 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Last year I was in a townhouse condo with a tiny back yard. We built raised beds on top of the lawn, covered the grass with news paper about 6 sheets thick and filled them with dirt that we scrounged, home made compost and peat moss. Total cost to turn the entire small back yard into a garden was about $100 and the plants grew fine. CS, I would ask the owner if you can have a garden. Even a small one. Don't let poor soil deter you. Soils can be improved.

JFN111 | 01-17-2010 08:58 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: One of the Square Foot Gardening techniques is building garden boxes, with a bottom, that can be placed off the ground on saw horses. Very efficient gardening and can be taken with you if you move from this rental property.

The Biss | 01-17-2010 08:31 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Quote:
Originally Posted by damoc (Post 2124701) do you have a lawn if so it should be the first to go
I tilled under my whole side yard just yesterday.

jiikoo | 01-18-2010 06:34 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Guy just want to start grow some weed, thats all. Garage where no one can what you are growing, hydroponics, acquiring material from unusual places etc. Hahaahaaa. Very funny.

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Professur | 01-28-2010 08:07 AM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: http://videos.howstuffworks.com/auto...ems-videos.htm

Brio | 01-28-2010 12:34 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: I like this idea, mini greenhouses, far more affordable than full size, take less space and work just as well http://www.leevalley.com/images/item...ng/xl803s2.jpg http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page...t=2,2030,33142 I've heard and I'm going to try myself, that growing potatoes in a stack of used tires greatly increases yields. Put soil in the first tire and plant you seed potatoes. When they are tall enough to reach above a second tire put one on, add soil, when the plant is tall enough add your third ring of tire and soil. Supposedly 100 lbs or more from each stack. If I had limited space i'd plant kale, grows all winter long and has more vitamins and nutrients than any green except brocolli which isn't nearly as easy to grow. Good luck.

coopersmith | 01-28-2010 12:44 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: 100 lb per stack sounds pretty high to me, I think 20 lb would be a good yeild. I have read articles that said tires give off toxic crap that gets into the potatoes. You can do the same with straw bales, and have mulch for next year since the bales will break down a bit. I plant my potatoes in trenches, which I backfill as the season progresses.

Brio | 01-28-2010 12:54 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Quote:
Originally Posted by coopersmith (Post 2151039) 100 lb per stack sounds pretty high to me, I think 20 lb would be a good yeild. I have read articles that said tires give off toxic crap that gets into the potatoes. You can do the same with straw bales, and have mulch for next year since the bales will break down a bit. I plant my potatoes in trenches, which I backfill as the season progresses.
I thought so too, both what you say, 100 lbs seems high and the leeching from the tires. But I'm going to try anyways. And factor in my ungreen thumb lol.

branshew | 01-28-2010 06:27 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Quote:
Originally Posted by Brio (Post 2151052) ...the leeching from the tires. But I'm going to try anyways.
I hope you don't plan on eating those...

jiikoo | 02-01-2010 12:48 PM
Re: Self-sufficiency... Baby-steps: Growing potatoes with tires. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmJQ2q5tUhc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmJQ2q5tUhc&feature=related
Small plastic greenhouses, I have this. http://www.kasvihuone.net/4

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