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Hivemindgammahydra7 | 07-06-2006 05:31 PM
FMJ v. SP I've been pondering the amount of SP ammunition I keep in all calibers, and wondering if a sharp increase is in order. Please correct me if I'm in error, but isn't SP banned from battlefield use worldwide by assorted international conventions? If so, then why? And, if SP is nasty enough to be banned internationally, should that mean that we ought to have a LOT of it? I can't help but wonder if SP wouldn't do a lot more damage than FMJ... Thanks for any input. H7

grizzlyduck | 07-06-2006 05:57 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP in theory SP is more damaging because of the "mushroom" effect when it hits. although some fast calibers with a FMJ bullet like 5.56x45 will fragment on impact causing a very devistating wound chanel. in general though, "yes" SP will cause more damage than FMJ. bullet construction varries greatly between designs and manufactures so the general rule has a lot of exceptions.

GREENSILVERHORN | 07-06-2006 05:57 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP I think you would prefer FMJ with the game you would be considering. Most likely as a body armor penetrant, trying to protect your hoard.

grizzlyduck | 07-06-2006 06:01 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP Quote:
Originally Posted by GREENSILVERHORN (Post 292368) I think you would prefer FMJ with the game you would be considering. Most likely as a body armor penetrant, trying to protect your hoard.
it's not gonna matter. body armor won't withstand a rifle round...only handgun...even a small round like .223, 30-30, or even .30 carbine will punch right through. unless you are wearing ceramic plates, then the armor is only good for 1 shot.

GREENSILVERHORN | 07-06-2006 06:04 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzlyduck (Post 292377) it's not gonna matter. body armor won't withstand a rifle round...only handgun...even a small round like .223, 30-30, or even .30 carbine will punch right through. unless you are wearing ceramic plates, then the armor is only good for 1 shot.
Distance to target considered? I'll take FMJ anyday.

grizzlyduck | 07-06-2006 06:27 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP Quote:
Originally Posted by GREENSILVERHORN (Post 292382) Distance to target considered? I'll take FMJ anyday.
if i'm far enough away to make a difference, ~600 yards with 223, i'll flee and live to fight another day. i'm considering defense only. now if i'm on the offensive then yea, FMJ 7.62x51 would be my choice. nothing a human could wear will stop that round, even from 1000 yards away. not that i would be shooting that far anyway. thinking real world SHTF defense though, it's not gonna matter too much what you use. humans are one of the most fragle animals out there. and most shooting is done within 100 yards. at those distances SP would probably be the way to go. but like i said, bullet performance is dependent on so many factors that you wouldn't really know what the best choice would have been until after the fight has already started. no bullet design will make up for a poor placed shot. you best bet is to be accurate and controled.

eat_beef | 07-06-2006 07:13 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP Modern armor with plates will stop 308 (actually 7.62mm):tongue: AP. Soft point is a lot better than fmj on soft targets, but not so good if one needs to penetrate a barrier. Add to this the fact that mil surp fmj costs about 1/3 as much as soft point, so you can get about 3x the ammo in a mil standard caliber. Good luck with that careful shot placement when someone is shooting back.

REV127 | 07-07-2006 11:08 AM
Re: FMJ v. SP Modern ceramic armor is rated for multiple hits. Steel rifle plates can be remarkably unconcerned with multiple strikes of SS109. I'd load up on AP before I'd load up on SP, but its all bullets and it'll all kill you stone dead if you get the shot on target. Some of it just makes a bigger hole than others. If you're talking about investment ammo, look at .50bmg. Of course, there always seems to be plenty of ordinance available in a warzone.

Prometheus | 07-07-2006 04:07 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzlyduck (Post 292377) it's not gonna matter. body armor won't withstand a rifle round...only handgun...even a small round like .223, 30-30, or even .30 carbine will punch right through. unless you are wearing ceramic plates, then the armor is only good for 1 shot.
Body armor has made huge advances in the past couple of years. Plates are no longer required depending on what platform (and how much money you have to spend) you choose. .30 carbine is a pistol caliber round. It's barely firing faster than a 9mm round out of a similar length barrel. This won't penetrate hardly any current production armor at point blank range let alone any distance. Rifle rounds such as the .223, 30-06, .308 ect. will be stopped by most battle field armor for multiple hits unless they are AP rounds, and some armor is rated for several hits of AP .308/7.62nato as well). The dragon skin armor for example uses no plates and stopped 30 rounds of standard 7.62x39 on one side, got flipped over and had 120 rounds of 9mm fired from a MP5 fired into that side. Distance was fairly close, check out the pinnacle armor website, awesome videos, including one of it stoping a few dozen 7.62x51 rounds. ------- To the original question, SP is IMO nothing more than a more reliable hollowpoint. Pretty much anyway. SP's are great when you don't want over penetration and don't want quiite the initial expansion of a HP round due to a think deer hide or something. I don't have any SP ammo and if I did it would be for hunting only I suspect. IMO I don't think it'd be worth stocking in any great quantity. YMMV, but I only stock hollow points in things I deem non-AP anyway. Examples would be .45acp... why not use hollowpoints? FMJ's won't go thru the oldest cheapest flak jackets anyway. with 9mm I keep 1k round of HP's on hand for the pistols and quite a bit more in FMJ for the Uzis... HP's shoot fine thru them, but with the longer barrel, it should go thru level 2A and lessor armor at close range and it should also go thru a flak jacket as well. Should being the operative word. I suspect unless a major advance in balistics takes place, realitively inexpensive body armor that will defeat just about anything will be flooding the markets in the next few years. Dragon skin shows we have the technology, just not the cost effective part of the equation.

Prometheus | 07-07-2006 04:14 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzlyduck (Post 292406) now if i'm on the offensive then yea, FMJ 7.62x51 would be my choice. nothing a human could wear will stop that round, even from 1000 yards away. not that i would be shooting that far anyway.
Here is the video I'm looking for: http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/video/308.wmv 11 rounds of 7.62x51 at under 20 feet. Check out the "dragon skin" section of www.pinnaclearmor.com for teh rest fo the videos such as: 40 rounds of 7.62x39 at 20 feet 150 rounds of 9mm at 10 feet

Hivemindgammahydra7 | 07-07-2006 06:13 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP So, modern body armor will stop 762 x 39 and x 51, then..? Sounds like even with FMJ, I'm in deep kimche... :frown:

grizzlyduck | 07-07-2006 08:52 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus (Post 293210) Here is the video I'm looking for: http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/video/308.wmv 11 rounds of 7.62x51 at under 20 feet. Check out the "dragon skin" section of www.pinnaclearmor.com for teh rest fo the videos such as: 40 rounds of 7.62x39 at 20 feet 150 rounds of 9mm at 10 feet
WOW!!! i guess i'm a few years behind on my body armor technology. :boxing: i guess we'll all have to start packing .50 bmg and 21mm cannons to ward off an attack. ...i wonder if anyone makes a 21mm revolver?...:confused: ...wait a minute... i still have 150 rounds of 30-06 AP rounds for my M1 garand. i bet it wouldn't stop that!!! ok, so i'll need to carry my M1 with AP, G3 with FMJ, AK with SP, 1911 with BALL, and MarkII with HP. also i will need water, food, med kit, extra mags, my PMs, and other supplies. all i need to do is buy the new Pinnacle armor. and then i'll be ready for any situation that may arrise. i think i would be moving so slow the enemy would just driver over me with a truck. i guess we've all lost sight of the original question of what would do more damage SP or FMJ. i still vote SP. but i don't think it would really matter one way or another in a real world situation.

eat_beef | 07-07-2006 11:02 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP I shoot a lot of hogs. FMJ DOES take a lot longer on average to put one down than, say a core lokt, or a ballistic tip. Bottom line, feces in the fan or otherwise, I'd rather have 3x good ammo than 1x great ammo. YMMV.

wallew | 07-08-2006 10:49 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP I have a video that was taken in Iraq. It shows one of our guys being shot at fairly close range. BOOM!! The guy goes down. You can hear the guy who shot him saying 'ALLAH AQBAR' in the background. OUR guy pops up and scans the area and then runs behind the hummer he WAS standing in front of. This particular video was captured in an enemy strong hold AFTER we killed a BUNCH of BG's. While going through their stuff they came across this camera with the tape still in it. So don't think for one second that a properly armored person can be brought down with ANYTHING short of either a .50 bmg OR a 20 or 30 mm cannon round. I also have a video from an Apache gunship that uses FLIR to watch a few BG's park their trucks on the side of the road. One of them takes what appears to be an IED, runs out into a field and then dumps it. After getting approval, they smoke them with a 30 mm cannon. One at a time. It's pretty graphic. You can see the rounds hit the ground, the trucks, etc. In one part you see one of the BG's trying to crawl away after being hit. THEY LIGHT HIM UP LIKE A CHRISTMAS TREE. And this ALL occurs through the FLIR sighting system. These guys NEVER KNEW what hit them. So you HAVE been warned. If ANYONE wants these videos I will forward them on. The one of our guy being shot close range is about 30 seconds. The one of the BG's being shot is just short of 3 minutes. If ANYONE wants to host them and post them, let me know.

Prometheus | 07-09-2006 03:24 AM
Re: FMJ v. SP Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 294131) So you HAVE been warned. If ANYONE wants these videos I will forward them on. The one of our guy being shot close range is about 30 seconds. The one of the BG's being shot is just short of 3 minutes. If ANYONE wants to host them and post them, let me know.
I've seen them as well, they are up all over google video. I don't have the links anymore, a search should turn them up fairly easily. In the vid of the soldier getting shot, I con't figure out why at such a close range they didn't take the head shot. Weird... lucky for him though!

wallew | 07-09-2006 02:35 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP P, I can actually answer that one. Strangely enough a LOT of moslems don't actually even KNOW HOW to aim. They figure if their god wants their enemies dead, he will guide their bullets to the target. It REALLY FRUSTRATED a buddy of mine when he was trying to train Iraqi soldiers on HOW to acquire a target and actually hit it. He said he NEVER saw so many guys fire their weapon with their EYES CLOSED. Go figure.

mtnman | 07-09-2006 02:59 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP While body armor might stop a .308 from penetration. What about blunt trauma force, your going down and at least have broken ribs.

Hivemindgammahydra7 | 07-09-2006 06:18 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP If I understand wallew correctly, nothing we do will prove effective if TSHTF, anyway. So perhaps I should sell off my all of gear & weapons for silver and gold, and leave the US for greener pastures, I don't know...

Prometheus | 07-09-2006 07:08 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP Quote:
Originally Posted by Hivemindgammahydra7 (Post 294496) If I understand wallew correctly, nothing we do will prove effective if TSHTF, anyway. So perhaps I should sell off my all of gear & weapons for silver and gold, and leave the US for greener pastures, I don't know...
I'm fairly sure yuor being facisious, but just in case ;) .... Shoot at anyone with just about anything and body armor or not they're going to pause. They know they aren't 100% armored and if it's in a SHTF situation they'll know that even a flesh wound could turn deadly w/o medical attention. Throw enough lead at the bad guys and one of two things will happen, they will choose easier pickin's or they'll try and burn you out just to spite you.

Prometheus | 07-09-2006 07:10 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 294424) While body armor might stop a .308 from penetration. What about blunt trauma force, your going down and at least have broken ribs.
Once agaion depnds on the armor, if they have trauma plates ect. ect. There is no easy answer to an almost infite amount of possibilities about what person A has and what person b is wearing..

mtnman | 07-09-2006 07:24 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus (Post 294525) Once agaion depnds on the armor, if they have trauma plates ect. ect. There is no easy answer to an almost infite amount of possibilities about what person A has and what person b is wearing..
My statement was about the blunt trauma force caused by the .308 round hitting the vest. Kinda like getting hit in the chest with a 20lb sledge hammer at full swing. Any human is going to the ground and will sustain broken bones at least and prehaps colasped lungs.

eat_beef | 07-09-2006 11:11 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP If you're going for blunt trauma a 12 ga slug would be your best bet. Buddy of mine is a jbt up around Dallas. Said two of his SWAT guys got popped by slugs, one by buckshot. None were killed, they all recovered, but they were all "incapacitated". I'm currently thinking that the whole CQB rifle concept is for the birds. Don't get me wrong, I love my carbines, but after speaking to a friend who actually lived through feces in the fan (in Africa), I'm thinking buckshot is your best bet for anything under 50 yds. I mean, KO a guy in armor, easier hit on a moving target, blow a leg off of a meth head who isn't bright enough to figure out he's dead. I hear they do well against zombies, too.:wink: Great, now to start stocking up on 870's.....and ammo.:banghead:

REV127 | 07-09-2006 11:50 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP MTNMAN, Actually, the guy who runs one of the major armor manufacturers, I believe it was Second Chance, has a video of himself taking a hit in the chest from point blank range with a .308. He doesn't fall down, it just looks like somebody shoved him a little. Somebody might be able to find a link to the vid. It isn't just a matter of fpe, it's also a matter how how long that energy is applied. In the case of firearms it's only for a split fraction of a second, so it will only move you/anything as far as that much energy over a fraction of a second works out to. Like one stop shots, there is a HUGE psychological component to this, and somebody who wasn't expecting to get hit might fall down immediately from a .38 hitting him in a trauma plate, because it startled and scared the pants off him. Or something you are just unbalanced. I have a steel rifle plate, I've let several people hit me in the chest while I was wearing it, with a measely 3lbs sledge. The sledge applies less force for a longer time than a bullet strike, so I get pushed back further, but whereas such a swing should crush my ribs normally, it doesn't even leave a welt through the 1/4 inch thick armor plate.

Prometheus | 07-09-2006 11:57 PM
Re: FMJ v. SP Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by Prometheus Once agaion depnds on the armor, if they have trauma plates ect. ect. There is no easy answer to an almost infite amount of possibilities about what person A has and what person b is wearing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 294537) My statement was about the blunt trauma force caused by the .308 round hitting the vest. Kinda like getting hit in the chest with a 20lb sledge hammer at full swing. Any human is going to the ground and will sustain broken bones at least and prehaps colasped lungs.
Like I said, it depends on the type of vest and any plates (be they soft or hard, ballistic or simply for trauma protection). A .308 round hitting a 12x9" plate isn't likely to break any bones and certainly not puncture a lung. One more time in case anyone has missed it: There is no easy answer to an almost infite amount of possibilities about what person A is shooting and what person B is wearing. I'll also throw in for good measure, and at what distance the shooting is taking place. As yet another caveat- there is no definative answer to most of these things without appling many additonal caveats to begin with. Say that 5 times fast :p As to the SWAT/JBT guys, your darn right, a slug at indoor ranges on a guy wearing armor w/plates is going to take the wind out of him, atleast. Most of those guys go 'injured' at that point and want to be babied. Most SWAT/JBT are simply playground bullies with a badge and cool 'tactical' gear. Bloody their nose and they turn coward in an instant. :cool2:

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