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- - My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=191143)

RichG | 10-21-2007 11:45 PM
My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Here is the deal. I just brought home 2 rem 700 SPS varmint rifles. One in .243 for my son and one in .308 for my self. We want to target shoot.:wink: Rifle After lots of research I have chosen to start off with this scope ( the Super Sniper SS10X42M). It has gotten rave reviews by very professional shooters and does not cost an arm and a leg for beginners. I want to put together the most 'accurate' system that I can based on the platform I have chosen .... so I want to start it right. Before I put one round through the barrel of any of these rifles, what is my very first step? Lap the barrels? What are the best steps to prepare for breaking-in the barrels? I am not talking about getting 'floating barrel stocks' etc...... I am talking about the actual rifle itself. I want to do this right, and I have a great deal of respect for the 'shooters' on this forum. Thanks ..... Rich :smokin:

SilverCity | 10-22-2007 12:39 AM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. well now.....where to begin... action properly torqued into stock? solid one-piece scope base and lapped rings? locktite screws? properly mounted scope? proper eye relief? focused correctly? good solid benchrest with rabbit-ear sand bags? rifle properly nested into the bags? quality factory loads or handloads? one piece cleaning rod and bore guide, correct size brushes, etc,? proper fitting patches, good quality non-ammoniated solvent? mentally prepared shooter? point rifle down range? still with me? Now then, there is one famous character by the name of Gale McMillan, who at one time built top-notch match rifles for US shooting team and who says breaking in quality rifle barrels is a big waste of time... Hold on while I find the reference...this is from The Firing Line forum archives...here are some of his comments: On breaking in barrels: "The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20 rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you are spending during break in." Gale McMillan On abrasive cleaning compounds: "Look at it this way, A barrel starts out with nice sharp areas of the corners of the rifling . Along the way you build a big fire in it a few thousand times and it burns the corners off. Now take a barrel that to break in you put an abrasive on a patch and run it in and out. The result is that you take the corners off the rifling so that all that fire which would have started with sharp rifling is now starting with rifling that is thousands of rounds old. Which means that a lot of the life is gone. A lap always cuts more on each end where the compound reverses direction as it starts back through the barrel which means that it is enlarging the bore at each ends of the barrel. And last picture a patch riding along the barrel with abrasive on it. It is removing material at a given rate. It comes to a place where there is copper fouling and it rides over it cutting the same amount that it was cutting before it came to the copper. You continue until all the fouling is gone and what have you done? You have put the came contour in the barrel steel that was in it when it was metal fouled. It would not be as bad if it were used on a lead lap but I ask why would you want to abuse the barrel when you can accomplish the same thing without the bad side effects. There is Sweats, Otters foul out or just a good daily cleaning with a good bore cleaner till the fouling is gone. To top this off I will relate a true happening. I built a bench rest rifle for a customer and as usual I fired 5 groups of 5 shots and calculated the aggregate. It was good enough to see that the rifle was capable of winning the Nationals so I shipped it. I got a call from the new owner saying how happy he was with it the way it shot. About 4 weeks later the rifle showed up with a note saying it wouldn't shoot. Sure enough when I tested it it was shooting groups three times the size if the ones I had shot before I shipped it. When I bore scoped it the barrel looked like a mirror and the rifling wasn't square it was half round. From that time on I put a flyer in each gun saying if any abrasive was use in it voided the Warrantee. Now I am not trying to stop you from doing what you want but just inform you what is happening when you use JB. Brass brushes are softer than barrel steel and does no harm. S/S brushes are harder than barrel steel is definetly a no no. Nylon may surprise you to know is very abrasive If you doubt this look at the carbide eye on yout fishing rod where nylon line has worn groves into it." Gale McMillan More Gale himself: Posted: 01-27-2000 08:57 "I will make one last post on this subject and appeal to logic on this subject I think it is the height of arrogance to believe a novice can improve a barrel using a cleaning rod more than that a barrel maker can do with 30 years of experience and a * million dollars in equipment . The barrel is a relatively precise bit of machining and to imagine that it can be improved on with a bit of abrasive smeared on a patch or embedded in a bullet. The surface finish of a barrel is a delicate thing with more of them being ruined with a cleaning rod in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use one. I would never in a million years buy a used rifle now because you well may buy one that has been improved. First give a little thought to what you think you are accomplishing with any of the break in methods. Do you really believe that if what you are doing would help a barrel that the barrel maker wouldn't have already done it. The best marketing advantage he can have is for his barrels to out perform his competitors! Of coarse he is happy to see you poking things in your barrel . Its only going to improve his sales. Get real!!!! I am not saying the following to brag because the record speak for it' self McMillan barrels won the gold at 4 straight Olympics. Won the Leach Cup eight years running. Had more barrels in the Wimbledon shoot off every year for 4 straight yearsthan any other make. Set the national 1000 yard record 17 times in one year. Held 7 world records at the same time in the NBRSA . Won the national silhouette matches 5 straight times and set 3world records while doing that . Shot the only two 6400 scores in the history of smallbore and holds a 100 yard world record that will stand for ever at .009 of one inch. All with barrels the shooter didn't have to improve on by breaking them in." Gale McMillan There you have it...some of his thoughts on the subject... Just so you know, the manufacturers instructions for breaking-in my new $500 Custom Shilen 6mm Remington barrel? ...shoot 10, clean, shoot 10, clean...that's it you're done.

RichG | 10-22-2007 01:15 AM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. SilverCity thanks so far. All your recommendations are on the mark .... but you only get to fire your first round once. I am not concerned with hitting anything just yet, all the tweaks come later. I want 'all' the precision that I can get out of these rifles, and that has to start with the internal workings first .... preparing for that first round that will lay the foundation for every other round that follows. Guess I posted before you finished .... good stuff! Thanks..... keep it coming. :smokin:

money matters | 10-22-2007 03:03 AM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. I would NOT lap any barrel that you want accuracy from. Clean it, yes; and then oil it and Be Sure before you shoot to run a dry patch through. Aside from tuning the trigger pulls to 2.5-4 lbs, I would not do anything until after you sight the rifles in. If you have the old Rem trigger, they are easy to adjust. You can do it if you are moderately good with tools, or have a gunsmith adjust them. You can google up Rem 700 trigger pull and find instructions that will work. The factory trigger pulls are horrible. You can have a tackdriver and if the trigger is 8lbs or more like Remington "adjusts" them, you won't get any decent results. Get the trigger tuned to 3#, more/less, and you may find your guns will shoot near .5" groups at 100 yds. Warne and Weaver make a decent low profile base. If you want to spend $150 on a base and another $175 on Rings, to have "The Best", try Badger Ord. For $10-$20 try Weaver bases and maybe a set of Warne rings, maybe their bases too. The Leupold dual dovetail set is also very reliable, durable and affordable. DO NOT go with the Leupold or other mfr's "STD" scope mount system. the rear windage screw is jake-leg, which means weak and unreliable. If you have the H-S Precision stock you will want to set the action screws at 65 INCH Pounds with a inch Lb Torque Wrench. If the stock does not have pillars or aluminum bedding block design try 25 in lbs. Fasten the ring screws with 15-18 ip, and the bases with 25ip. If you use a picatinny rail and single bolt fastener ring design, you want 65ip. Likely you have read about barrel break in procedures. Google that if you haven't. It's a good idea to use a scope ring alignment tool, the rods that taper to a point; to be sure both rings are setting correct in the base slots. Will show you any problems you may have with scope mount hole alignment. Use only a coated Dewey or other one-piece cleaning rod, and a rod guide is a good accessory. You want to shoot from a good benchrest with the rifle sandbagged or protektor bagged to enable only minimal contact with the rifle. Shoot for the same aiming point, the corner of a square is good since you can align your crosshairs on the edges. Easy to hold the same precise spot. You will see how tight your rifle performs w/o doing anything to it. If you handload, the next thing to do is to use a proven match load and experiment with seating the bullets into the lands. If you want to use the magazine box, seat to an overall length of 2.825". Try Sierra 168 or 175 matchkings. Don't lap your scope rings, barrel, bolt or do anything beyond adjusting the triggerpull and mounting the scope as perfectly as possible til after you've fired each rifle. Remington 700 rifles are super! Congratulations and good luck!!

RiverRat | 10-22-2007 04:05 AM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. :bear_w00t: Remington ? What were you thinking Rich ? Real Men only own bolt action Winchesters and Sakos :>) Just a quick tip from experience. Every rifle is unique...buy at least 4 different brands of ammo and nail down which brand and bullet weight gives the most consistent accuracy. Then stick with it !! Yeah...be prepared to spend a few FRNs on ammo. Certain rifles love certain brands of factory ammo and hate others. If you reload you can write your own rulebook,but that's another subject. Nice scope in the link...I use Nikkons...no complaints. Good luck Rich...have fun. :D:D:D

wallew | 10-22-2007 02:44 PM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Rich, You don't actually tell us WHAT you will be using this rifle for. That is the first piece of info I NEED before offering any advice. I will offer kudos for your selection of the Rem 700 action. You have purchased one of the better actions out there. .308 is MY caliber of choice for this kind of rifle, though mine is a heavy barrel, as I don't intend to carry this one much. The scope is pretty impressive as well. Note the mil spec marks do NOT start until 200 yards. So hopefully you won't be taking any 'close in' shots. Or you will have to make 'adjustments' in your sighting system. A couple of other items that no one seemed to mention. Make sure to pick up a good Harris bipod and don't forget a good sling. If this weapon will EVER be carried in the field, consider at least a 1 inch leather sling. With or without additions (such as a leather shoulder pad on the sling itself). Otherwise carrying this weapon all day CAN become a chore. Having said that, once again Money Matters is giving you bogus information. NEVER have your trigger set to 2.4 - 4 lbs (later he says 3 lbs). This will guarantee you will set your firearm off accidentally. AD's at the range or in the field are never a good thing. 5 lbs is the lightest most gunsmiths will 'adjust' a trigger. What you want is for the trigger pull to be smooth and release just above 5 lbs. Below 5 lbs would allow a 'lawyer' a hook in his case explaining to the stupid jury how you modified your rifle to an 'unsafe' rifle BECAUSE the trigger pull was set 'dangerously low'. Regardless of your expertise. Which is WHY any knowledgable gunsmith will NOT set it below 5lbs. But, once again, that's something that MM knows nothing about. Liablity for your actions. BTW, also please note that even whom ever was talking to Gale McMillan SC posted about 'barrel break in' said that the average number of shots a barrel can do is 3000 and that's by a guy that 'caters to the target crowd'. So listen to Money Matters if you want, but as usual his information is DANGEROUSLY WRONG.

SilverCity | 10-22-2007 03:21 PM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. I am a big fan of the Remington 700 action myself...they have a reputation for excellent out-of-the-box accuracy. My out-of-the-box stock Rem VSSF .308/Leupold 12X scope with Federal 168 Match ammo is capable of ~ .75" groups at 200 yards...just for comparison...no break-in routine per se...but I do clean the bore after every 20 to 25 rounds. RichG did say he wanted to get the best performance out of his rifle...that's why I made reference to Mr. McMillan...didn't mean to start a pi$$in' match. :smokin:

money matters | 10-22-2007 08:52 PM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. This whole scene of Wallew: Fellow and Diplomate of American Academy of Gunsmiths is getting tiresome. If the guy doesn't know that accuracy gunsmiths all over the country set Rem 700 triggers to between 2 and 4lbs as a matter of standard practice; has the guy heard about smokeless powder? Man, this is a boring scene; the know-nothing knowitall.

Mtscout | 10-22-2007 09:20 PM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. RichG get some ammo, lots of it get some ear plugs, shooting glasses get a sand bag or some other kind of shooting rest get a paper target, and mark off 100 yards, maybe 50 yards to start with and get a good cleaning outfit, I personally like the 'Otis' system shoot the rifle the 700 is an excellent rifle but you don't know what you have, until you shoot it you may have a diamond, or a diamond in the ruff anyways shooting is 80% mental and practice is the teacher good luck have fun with your son Mtscout

wallew | 10-22-2007 09:56 PM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 791809) This whole scene of Wallew: Fellow and Diplomate of American Academy of Gunsmiths is getting tiresome.
I concur. SO WHY DON'T YOU STOP POSTING BAD INFORMATION? You consistently regurgitate what you've read over on another website to make yourself feel better. I've requested you post even ONE picture of ANY rifle you've EVER BUILT. Still nothing. Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 791809) If the guy doesn't know that accuracy gunsmiths all over the country set Rem 700 triggers to between 2 and 4lbs as a matter of standard practice; has the guy heard about smokeless powder? Man, this is a boring scene; the know-nothing knowitall.
Actually that MM doesn't know that even POLICE SNIPERS like their triggers set at 5 lbs. WHY? Because if they MUST take a shot, they know they have no legal liablity for taking that shot. Really MM, how about you really consider going away until you ACTUALLY KNOW SOMETHING. As that is NOT going to happen, I suggest everyone ELSE go back and read his previous postings. He's constantly making false statements like : barrels burn out at 600 rounds - because HEY, everyone in the target shooting world said so - lets NOT take real world experience into this discussion - like what Gale McMillan says triggers should be LESS than 5 lbs - in the REAL WORLD, where weapons are used to take a life, not shoot at long distance paper targets, 5 lbs is a LEGAL NECESSITY. And ANY GOOD GUNSMITH KNOWS THIS. Unfortunately MM does not. Just like he likes the AR10 but FINALLY had to admit it's not a US SERVICE RIFLE so it can't be used at ANY Service Rifle Matches. OR that the M14 (M1A) was not a 'competitors' rifle and ONLY the AR15 is a winning rifle. Uh, MM - the M16 didn't come out until the early 1960's, and it wasn't winning matches until the early 1990's. So that MEANS that the M1 Garand and the M14 WERE winning Camp Perry and ALL the other Service Rifle Matches for more than thirty years. But you know, MM doesn't even know THAT. So yeah, it IS getting BORING reading just how DANGEROUSLY WRONG the information you hand out really is. So why don't you just SF2?

Scorpio | 10-22-2007 11:47 PM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. My dumbcluck opinion on trigger pull is as follows: If a toy that you shoot paper with, then you can plop down and put it as light as you like. If a working gun or field gun, then you want it a little stiffer to prevent accidents. Knowing you RichG, this is where you fall. So I would agree that around 5 is fine. IMO, I ain't walking around the woods toting a light trigger. The Rem 700 is great selection. Dependability and longevity with accuracy. Scorp

Horn | 10-22-2007 11:51 PM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio (Post 791981) The Rem 700 is great selection. Dependability and longevity with accuracy. Scorp
I don't know of any better, for taking out "the large game".

RichG | 10-22-2007 11:56 PM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Wow .... I just got back on this thread. Seems like someone needs couples counseling. Anyway, you both have input that I will use, and I respect all posters here. So, before I take that first shot, what I have so far is this .... No need to lap the barrel or do anything outside a good 'cleaning and oiling'. After first 10 shots .... clean, again after the next 10 shots, so-on-and-so-forth until maybe 50 rounds, then just a good cleaning after the range or a hunt. Cleaning Clean .... "Use only a coated Dewey or other one-piece cleaning rod, and a rod guide is a good accessory". Use brass brushes correctly sized for the bore. "proper fitting patches, good quality non-ammoniated solvent". Thanks.... I went out to Home depot an bought some 'hand-clamps' to make a gun work stand, and ordered the .308 and .243 dies for my Dillon RL 550 today. I want to work out the 'dope; for each bullet weight to find the perfect round and charge. That way I know what light round I am going to use to hunt varmints, and what heavy round to do that reach-out and touch someone. I want a 'solid' 800+ yard round for all weights. I know that the rifle, and scope are capable, and the real variable is the round and the shooter. I will be ordering my Harris 9"-13" bio-pods tomorrow. I want the swivel, heard good things about them. My scopes should be in this week. I will start to post pictures to document the progress of this little project. Thank again for a great start. Rich

RichG | 10-23-2007 12:18 AM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat Nice scope in the link...I use Nikkons...no complaints. Good luck Rich...have fun. :D:D:D
RR .... I am truly excited about these scopes. If they live up to the hype I will be thrilled .... if not I will mount them on my mini-14's (I know ... I know. I hope TN_Andy isn't reading this). I was looking hard at the Bushnell elite 3200 tactical, and of course the Leupold mark4 3.5-10x40 M3, but could not justify the cost just yet. Then I came across this Super Sniper. Never heard of it, but after reading the reviews, and user opinions, man, it fit the bill perfectly. This is one 'serious' scope. I will post my thoughts on this scope when I get it, and again when I start to use it. Rich

RichG | 10-23-2007 12:24 AM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender (Post 792000) Just go shoot the dang thing will ya :D
I'm getting the .308 warmed-up for you. Hell, running an OP in Maryland winter will be a cake-walk compared to that freezer you live in.:D

electric-amish | 10-23-2007 12:24 AM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. PLease post pictures when you get it under way. I would live to see a step by step upgrade on your 700. Next year I've been invited on a Elk Hunt with some Family in Co. So I have to get the toys ya know. As to your question-----A super light trigger the field sounds like a potential problem. Deer hunting in Mo. I walk through some heavy brush and get hung up sometimes. Maybe out in the open its would be OK. E-A

RichG | 10-23-2007 12:31 AM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio (Post 791981) My dumbcluck opinion on trigger pull is as follows: If a toy that you shoot paper with, then you can plop down and put it as light as you like. If a working gun or field gun, then you want it a little stiffer to prevent accidents. Knowing you RichG, this is where you fall. So I would agree that around 5 is fine. IMO, I ain't walking around the woods toting a light trigger. The Rem 700 is great selection. Dependability and longevity with accuracy. Scorp
I do want it a little stiffness ..... especially in the field. Don't want to pull a Cheny and blow the face off of the guy next to me. :D

SAUM | 10-23-2007 12:33 AM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. I haven't really applied this guys method of reloading as of yet, but I thought his theory on Optimal Charge Weight was worth throwing out there. http://home.earthlink.net/~dannewber...addevelopment/

RichG | 10-23-2007 12:35 AM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Quote:
Originally Posted by skyvike (Post 791945) Rich, I fall into the "no special break in" crowd. All the guys, long time competitive shooters, I've ever asked, "How do you break in a barrel" have replied, "Ya shoot it." Here's an article that applied DIRECTLY to your question. http://www.chuckhawks.com/affordable_accuracy.htm I've saved this link for some time.....
Great link mister Skyvike.... thanks. :smokin:

negative1 | 10-23-2007 01:03 AM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Quote:
Originally Posted by RichG (Post 791990) I will be ordering my Harris 9"-13" bio-pods tomorrow. I want the swivel, heard good things about them. Rich
Your going to want a pod lock to tighten the swivel. About the best price I have seen is HERE Pick a lever and get the spacer and your set. -1

RichG | 10-23-2007 01:06 AM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender (Post 792038) Save the Swingset Deadeye.
:adore: :applause_:applause_:applause_ Holy shit bender ..... what kind of lens you got on the new camera of yours:shocked_ma: Lucky I wasn't 'air bathing' on one of those lawn chairs. The fort next to the swings is OP 1. Hell I'll even put a pot belly stove in there for ya.:smokin: Ya peepin Tom .... :bath::emotions16:

Bushpilot | 10-23-2007 10:19 AM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Light trigger pulls are not inherrently dangerous. I have a couple of them in the 3-3.5 lb range and I hunt afield with them with no problems. Safe and proper gun handling is an absolute must. The trigger should be adjusted properly by a gunsmith to ensure that it is done right and not prone to an AD. There are also other things you can do to lighten the feel of the pull like a speed spring in the bolt to shorten the lock time, or a wider trigger shoe. I have yet to buy an off the rack rifle with an acceptable trigger pull. In fact, evey rifle Ive purchased with the exception of 2 have made a trip to the gunsmith prior to me putting the first round through them. Usually involves a trigger job(smooth and lighten), lap the bolt, smooth the feed ramp, and mount the scope or peep sight(preferred). Just take the rifle out shoot it with as many different ammo types and bullet weights you can afford and then stick with the one that gives you the best accuracy. With handloading you can really fine tune the accuracy. Good Luck! BP

wallew | 10-23-2007 03:56 PM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushpilot (Post 792353) In fact, evey rifle Ive purchased with the exception of 2 have made a trip to the gunsmith prior to me putting the first round through them. Usually involves a trigger job(smooth and lighten), lap the bolt, smooth the feed ramp, and mount the scope or peep sight(preferred). Just take the rifle out shoot it with as many different ammo types and bullet weights you can afford and then stick with the one that gives you the best accuracy. With handloading you can really fine tune the accuracy. BP
Perfect answer. I still say 5 lbs for a trigger pull is way to go. But almost everyone above seems to believe what I do. That for a WORKING RIFLE that you will actually take in the field and kill things with, a 5 lb trigger pull, along with that 'smooth' part of the trigger job will definitely make for a safe and reliable rifle that you will know you are completely legal, IF one of those kills happens to be on two legs, instead of four. Rich, YOU GOTTA SHOW US THAT BIPOD. It's a sweet one. Here is a link to Brownells, where you can purchase a Dewey Cleaning Rod. Mine is 38", and 'tough nylon coated'. They run $25 and are well worth the investment. Your shoot ten, clean, etc is exactly how I broke my Rem 700 in. Took a while, but as I was sighting the scope in for the first time, it was a blast. Once your scope is sighted in, don't forget to take some notes on how it shoots at 100 yards and then 200 yards and up, which are all ranged for you with that scope. Don't forget a good sling, as it does make carrying this rifle much easier on a long hunting day.

Krugerrand | 10-23-2007 10:00 PM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 792675) I still say 5 lbs for a trigger pull is way to go. But almost everyone above seems to believe what I do. That for a WORKING RIFLE that you will actually take in the field and kill things with, a 5 lb trigger pull, along with that 'smooth' part of the trigger job will definitely make for a safe and reliable rifle that you will know you are completely legal, IF one of those kills happens to be on two legs, instead of four.
Can you elaborate some on the "legality" aspect? Is there a law that says your trigger needs to be 5+ lbs. and smooth? The reason I ask is that it seems if one were to argue you need a heavy trigger so you don't accidentally shoot someone before you intended to (when you were in fear for your life), then you probably aren't following the rule of "keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot (or sights are on the target, whichever version you prefer) and perhaps also "don't point a gun at something you're not ready to destroy." In other words, it seems that you shouldn't be pointing a gun at someone unless you've already decided that you need to shoot them to end the threat, so a light trigger shouldn't matter unless you're going to be just pointing it folks as a threat, and will have your finger on the trigger at the time, and are then worried about accidentally pulling. Even if one did plan to point their gun at folks without shooting, then it seems they should still have their finger off the trigger until they're ready to fire, in which case again a light trigger wouldn't be a cause for concern. Hope that made some sense... :s9: Maybe some folks can set me straight if I'm off track here.

wallew | 10-23-2007 10:27 PM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Yeah, I can actually 'shed some light' on this. The rifle comes FROM THE FACTORY with about a 12 lb trigger pull. I've actually seen a few that were as high as 15 lbs. The thing is, if you USE this weapon and you 'modified' the trigger to be less than the 'factory setting' then you must be a 'killer'. Realize this is EXACTLY how the attorney who represents the family of the person you killed will say about you. He will tell the jury you modified the trigger SPECIFICALLY to kill people quicker. He or she will use words like 'unnecessary' and 'hair trigger' to paint the picture that you went out of your way to produce an 'UNSAFE' rifle. His argument will start with, FROM THE FACTORY THIS PARTICULAR RIFLE HAS A TRIGGER PULL WEIGHT OF 12 LBS. This person modified that 'from the factory' trigger, making it 'unsafe' and that's WHY he killed this person. Now, you need to realize that this attorney will choose people who are against guns and don't believe that YOU need to actually own a weapon to protect yourself. I guess I could write a dissertation, but why? You get the jist of this BS. Basically, 5 lbs has been 'agreed upon' by most prosecutors as a safe trigger pull. This actually makes no sense, but that's how it currently is. And don't take this the wrong way, but your arguments will be ones that any competent attorney will chop to pieces. Weapons discipline and the four rules of safety don't mean ANYTHING to people who don't think you should be allowed to have a firearm in the first place. After all, that's what the POLICE are for, RIGHT? Hope that helps.

RichG | 10-23-2007 10:37 PM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. wallew thanks for the link. I ordered the bi-pods today. The scopes arrive on thur, and the pods on friday. Looks like I have my weekend booked.:D

Krugerrand | 10-24-2007 04:54 AM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Thanks, wallew. I certainly could see that coming. You could probably have summed it up in one word: lawyers. :thumpdown :bear_angry:

money matters | 10-24-2007 01:08 PM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. I have never heard anything as ridiculous as Wallew's trigger pull weight discussion ever before. I am sure a good, experienced hand with a rifle can MANAGE a 5lb trigger pull; but it is not one he/she would seek or desire. Service rifle competition triggers MUST be set at 4.5lbs min; and they are tested to meet that standard. Yet, many competitors use a 2 stage trigger pull. This means that the trigger is pressed until "slack" is taken up (1st stage), then the final 1.5-1lb is pressed through for a suprise-break. A 5lb pull on a single stage trigger is not something any accuracy shooter will seek. A 5lb trigger with creep and overtravel etc is really crummy. If think the best solution for this whole liability discussion as well as Safety Afield, is to observe one of the Most Critical Safety Tennets: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU DECIDE TO SHOOT! Another one is, DON'T POINT THE MUZZLE OF YOUR WEAPON AT ANYTHING YOU DON'T WANT TO KILL OR DESTROY! If you are afraid of a 2.5lb trigger in the field, well; it is a wise man who knows his limitations. A very worthwhile accessory to own is an RCBS deluxe trigger pull gauge. It records your trigger pull weight with an arrow on the housing. Easy to use. Man! If we are going to start 2nd guessing liability exposures; maybe not owning a trigger pull gauge exposes you also? How many hunters here walk with a round chambered in their weapon, relying on the safety? Safeties do fail. Gonna sue Remington if you close the bolt on a live round with the barrel pointed at a family member and the gun goes off? Sure you are! But, you are the one at fault. TREAT EVERY GUN AS IF IT WERE LOADED is another of those old cliches called the 10 Commandments of Gun Safety. I stated in my first post, "Aside from tuning the trigger pulls to 2.5-4 lbs, I would not do anything until after you sight the rifles in." If you would like to see how well your Rem 700 is capable of grouping, I will bet you dollars to donuts that you shoot a 2.5 lb trigger better than a 5lb. Learning to manage a good trigger is a skill you should have no fear of. Shooting off the bench, rifle fully supported and steady; you will be amazed how much effort is required to fire your rifle without disturbing your point of aim, even at 2.5 lbs. Benchrest shooters manage triggers in the 2 OUNCE pressure range. Jewell triggers are about the best. For years, Arnold Jewell did not offer a benchrest trigger that had provision for a safety, yet thousands of benchrest shooters clamored for his products. Imagine that! I recall Rich G specifically stating, "We Want To TARGET Shoot". The advice given has been sound. I believe you will get much the same from any Accuracy Gunsmith. If you are going to TARGET Shoot, and will be doing so at a range or facility with decent benchrest firing stations; you will obtain better accuracy, earlier on in your efforts, if you do not use a bipod, but rather shoot from well-supported sand bags. Once you learn what you & your rifle can do under optimum conditions, then you can judge your capability with a bipod and offhand with a sling. I bought my first Varmint Special in 1992. They are fine weapons. The old BDL stocked ones were very handsome. With a 6x scope it makes a very good hunting rifle. If you load for accuracy not velocity you will see long barrel life out of your .308; not half as much with the .243, but that is the nature of the cartridge. Same powder charge smaller diameter bullet, overbore design. By the time your son burns out that .243 he'll have the accuracy bug, or maybe he'll want a .308 too? I wish you the best of luck in your target shooting efforts.

wallew | 10-24-2007 01:37 PM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. MM, I've got no idea what you blathered on about, but if it is your usual tripe, then I've given the rest of the board the warning they need. I no longer waste my time reading what you put down, because it is ALWAYS WRONG. For everyone else. The LEGAL issues of having a less than 5 lb trigger pull DO have consequences. One of the best statements about this I found over on Makarov.com . "Negligent homicide is when you with no regard for others safety create a situation resulting in the death of another when you remove a drop safety and that gun discharges resulting in injury or death, you now have zero defense in criminal or civil legal proceedings as you intentionally disabled or authorized that safety feature to be disabled" This specific sentence is in regards to doing a 'safe trigger job' on a CZ52. But it does apply to modifying any firearms factory trigger pull and I hope this gives everyone some insight into WHY having a less that 5 lb trigger pull is a bad idea. The LAST person a gunsmith wants to meet is his customers widows attorney. The second to last person is the attorney of the family of the person whom your customer killed with his 'less than 5 lb trigger pull'. Even if it's a 'rightous shoot' and you are actually COMMENDED by your local law enforcement, you WILL face a CIVIL TRIAL, where your actions WILL be vilified. Don't believe me? Go ask OJ. He won his criminal trial. AND LOST his civil trial. GET IT?

money matters | 10-24-2007 04:35 PM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Rich G. If you want to learn about tactical rifles and accuracy, I would recommend that you read the articles and maybe the forum archives at snipercountry.com, and snipershide.net. Snipersparadise is another site with some good info, and if you are seriously interested in Super-Accuracy rifles, checkout 6mmBR.com. The guys and longrangehunting.com have good info too. Undoubtedly the most professional bunch I have ever encountered are on the National Match sites for Service Rifle and High-Power shooters. .308 is still very popular in these competitions, but 6mm's like your .243 are what win at 1000 yds whenever rules allow. Much info there, at least for reloading data and techniques of shooting. I regret any distraction to your thread. Wish you and your son many years of shooting pleasure. The above sites have a ton of great information. The forum discussions on some often become a matter of ego, just as we see here. Evidently, some guys figure they have to know it all, and are unable to consider that their own experience is not the entire universe. One last thing, I would definitely buy some basic reloading gear and learn to assemble my own ammunition. Sierra bullets and their loading manual are benchmarks of excellence that will aid you in this effort more than any other, at least while you are sorting the accurate shooting game out. Good luck!

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money matters | 10-26-2007 07:47 PM
Re: 5# triggers for liability???? Still unable to reconcile that one. Saw a blurb today where Outdoor Life announces the Winchester Model 70 is being reintroduced WITH A NEW TRIGGER WHICH IS FACTORY SET FOR 3.75LBS. To quote: New Trigger The most notable feature on the new Model 70 is its new trigger, one that is adjustable down to 3 pounds, though the triggers will come preset from the factory with a 3 3/4 pound pull. (If a heavier trigger pull is your thing you can set it to break up to a maximum of 5 pounds.) The trigger itself is a simple thing, incorporating just three pieces. Winchester calls the trigger the M.O.A., rightly linking the need for a good performing rifle to have a good trigger, which the M.O.A. certainly is. The model 70 I have is set for 2.5lbs. Simple perfection on the older rifles. This is the 3rd time the M70 is reinvented. Wow, a manufacturer who acknowledges a good trigger pull is absolutely essential, who'da thunk it?

wallew | 10-26-2007 08:14 PM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. WOW... "New Trigger The most notable feature on the new Model 70 is its new trigger, one that is adjustable down to 3 pounds, though the triggers will come preset from the factory with a 3 3/4 pound pull. (If a heavier trigger pull is your thing you can set it to break up to a maximum of 5 pounds.)" http://www.outdoorlife.com/article.jsp?ID=55170 OMG, even OUTDOOR LIFE says that this 'new adjustable trigger' CAN BE SET TO 5 LBS. Gee, I WONDER WHY? Because FROM A LIABILITY STANDPOINT this lessens WINCHESTERS liability... Well, duh! So everyone knows what we are talking about, here is MY trigger pull measuring tool. The side you see measures trigger pull in lbs, the other side of the tool measures trigger pull in kgs ... http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1193446184

money matters | 10-26-2007 08:55 PM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Guess you missed this sentence, pardner: "... though the triggers will come preset from the factory with a 3 3/4 pound pull." If the factory (Fabrique Nationale FN who also own Browning), were concerned with lawsuits, THEY would set the trigger to 12 lbs or some stupid almost non-functional limit. The Winchester guys even say, ",,, (there is a) need for a good performing rifle to have a good trigger" You know Wallew, I think we could have a lot of fun doing a point:counterpoint thing here. Couldn't we? (Wasn't that the title of an Aldous Huxley novel? C'mon you're THE Renaissance Man!) Nothing wrong with a little humor and sarcasm is there? You're the expert and THE Renaissance Guy; I will just have to work harder. See you around, my friend. Man, you do crack me up with some of your stuff! eta: Hey, is that a handmade tool? I just have a $25 RCBS recording pull-gauge, nothing as pretty as yours. Wow! I am jealous! Also wonder this, if Remington hadn't been mucking up their triggers since the 1990s, I venture to guess that 3-3.5 lbs would be the norm on a lmost any bolt-action rifle. Who the hell is going to spend $50 to INCREASE their trigger pull? Seems like monkeying with a factory pre-set adds more fuel to the plaintiffs case anyway. "So, Mr. Wallew, let me get this straight; you adjusted your trigger to increase the pull weight and this accident still occured?" I think if anyone was liable it would be the gunsmith "expert" who advised the defendant and did the work.

wallew | 10-27-2007 11:28 AM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. MM, Sounds like a GREAT IDEA. I harbor NO ILL WILL to anyone here. I WOULD like to apologize for coming across so harsh. It's NOT who I am. And like I said, I LOVE THE "Point/Counterpoint" idea. Nothing like a good healthy debate.

money matters | 12-26-2007 04:45 AM
Re: My new Rem 700 SPS Varmint... I want to do it right from the start. Wonder what happened to this tolerance for "debate"?

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