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Canadian-guerilla | 07-11-2009 07:19 PM
Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Evolution of Combative Anatomy It has been just over a year since I coined the term Combative Anatomy, the study of incapacitating your attacker during a violent attack. Since that time I have done more research on the subject and have some new thoughts. First, let's define incapacitation. For our purposes it means that the attacker is physically unable to continue to attack. Since the majority of initial defenses are likely to be open handed even against weapons, we cannot count on things like pain compliance because of tolerance or desensitization related to drugs or alcohol. Defenses need to focus on the mechanism of attacks and not the method i.e., destroying the elbow of the arm that holds the knife instead of trying to disarm the knife. Regardless of whether you are defending yourself with your hands, stick, gun, or firearms there are only two ways you can cause trauma to your attacker, and they are cutting and crushing. You either penetrate the skin or you don't. The hierarchy of incapacitation is as follows- - Central nervous system - Skeletal system - Muscular system - Circulatory System It is interesting to note that although trauma to the circulatory system is most likely to prove fatal it may actually be the slowest in terms on the immediacy in which it causes physical incapacitation that stops your attacker. With the exception of choking, targeting of the circulatory system is also impossible with the personal or impact weapons. Instead of having a specific game plan or secret move, I feel it is more effective to target areas of the body that are most vulnerable to open hand attacks that are likely to be exposed during an altercation. These targets have been narrowed down to- Head- responsible for decision-making Elbow- the lynch pin of all open hand attack and using weapons Knee- responsible for locomotion, base and balance The way to combat the failure of specific targeting is redundancy. Since an attack with the open hand or a contact distance weapon would expose all three primary targets, all should be attacked if possible. For example, if someone were to attack you with a tire iron and you were able to move to the outside you would- smash the weapon side elbow with your elbow or palm, smash your knee into the side of theirs and then yank them back causing their head to strike a wall or vehicle. This of course is an example in open hand force vs deadly force. A slap to the side of the head is also an effective optional technique. Disruption of the central nervous system should be considered the primary target even if it is not attacked first. This doctrine allows for a measured open hand response that because of its effectiveness may prevent the need to escalate to a mechanical or deadly force option. As a side note, practicing these techniques even in a controlled environment is likely to result in hyper extended knees and elbow. Headgear should also be worn. Communication with your training partner is the key. Now a few words on Combative Anatomy as it relates to the use of an edged weapon for self-defense. Again it seems that our goal needs to be defined as stopping our attacker as fast as possible, not killing them eventually. The debate over stab vs cut continues. Since attacking the central nervous system with an edged weapon is improbable we will discuss the most effective way to attack the circulatory system. Most of those knowledgeable and trained in edged weapons prefer to stab and believe they will be able to do so even when attacked. Since I believe that the vast majority of people reading this are likely to never use an edged weapon offensively, I can only theorize that if they do have to use one it will be in response to being attacked. My research has shown that when people are on the defense and moving to the rear they are more likely to slash. The people that I have observed have ranged from novices to those who would define themselves as seasoned knifers. Either way they responded the same way. This is telling since it has been my experience that many folks who carry a knife for self defense have little to no training and consider their knife a last ditch weapon. What I teach has to be as effective for those who attend a weekend seminar as it is for those who pursue edged weapons as a martial art. For this reason I don't feel comfortable teaching stabbing as a primary counter attack. For those of you who don't hunt, try watching a few hunting shows. You can see hunters shooting white tail dear with shotguns, rifles, and bows. I don't think that anyone would argue that a knife would cause more damage than any of these other weapons. Their shots usually target the circulatory system. Most of the time the animal recoils in shock before bolting off to die a distance away. How much damage could a human do in that time? This overwhelming trauma to the thoracic cavity results in an adrenaline dump and blood pumping into the legs allowing the animal to run. They are for a few seconds able to run faster on their extremities than they ever have before. Why don't they target the head and the central nervous system or the skeletal system? One is for the trophy and one is sportsmanship. It is more important to kill them eventually than to stop them immediately. The exact opposite of what we need to do when defending ourselves against human predators. These theories on Combative Anatomy continue to reinforce my belief that Inverted Edge Tactics offer the best defensive edged weapon skills. First of all the use of the inverted edge prevents people from swinging wildly outside the silhouette of their attacker which increases economy of motion, while at the same time targets by default the inherent weaknesses of the body. The most important feature of Inverted Edge Tactics is that it takes advantage of the fact that arteries and nerves run together along the contours of the muscle like a wiring harness. As with the open hand this combats the likeliness of failure with redundancy. The more systems attacked the better the chance of physiological failure. Careful consideration needs to be made in reference to how humans respond during stress, the positions we are likely to find ourselves in, and the most effective way to blend those things to formulate repeatable tactics to stop attacks as fast as possible. http://moderncombativesystems.com/docs/articles29.htm

Canadian-guerilla | 07-11-2009 07:21 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) what targets would you target on an attacker ? no guns allowed

maven | 07-14-2009 05:50 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) I study a style of karate called Isshinryu (also Judo and Jiu Jitsu). It's an Okinawan style that's more "survival/streetfighting" based than most other styles. Common targets are groin, eyes, throat, ribs, kidneys, pretty much the standard targets you hear mentioned in most self defense conversations. I look for opportunities to get a good snap kick to the groin because it will create so many opportunities. Elbows work well in a close contact (i.e. the clinch) and arm bars are surprisingly easy to get on an opponent. While an arm bar won't incapacitate, 2 arms against one is much better odds.Our system also uses the vertical fist/punch, which is significantly different than the standard karate corkscrew punch or even the western boxing style punch. Vertical fist is faster and strikes with focused force in a small area by using the first two knuckles to strike. Krav Maga is probably the most popular and arguably best system for survival defense.

Canadian-guerilla | 07-14-2009 06:14 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Quote:
Originally Posted by maven Krav Maga is probably the most popular and arguably best system for survival defense.
while having no formal training in JKD i've always been a fan of Bruce Lee and his principles ( take what is useful ) and one of my favorite martial arts books is Tao of JKD and so my love of JKD led me to KM ( no nonsense attitude ) i've always been a big fan of realistic traning ( street clothes/sneakers/anywhere/anytime/unexpected ) the only problem i've had is finding someone to train with ( that's not how they do it at the dojo ) trying to get a friend to practice/train with me, we'll see how that goes right now, KM has rekindled my interest in martial arts training again that being said, in a one on one confrontation a simple open hand fient to the face or off to the side while the true blow is to the knee, has always been a favorite of mine

maven | 07-14-2009 07:08 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian-guerilla (Post 1817231) that being said, in a one on one confrontation a simple open hand fient to the face or off to the side while the true blow is to the knee, has always been a favorite of mine
We have a front corner kick designed for the knee that works beautifully.Strikes with the blade of the foot against the just above the knee. It is a nice move. When you can get an opponent concerned about the eyes/face it gives you the rest of the body to work with. Same is true for the groin. The more I learn about martial arts and combat in general, the more I realize I don't know. I started with Isshinryu, added Judo, just started Jiu Jitsu, and would love to take up Krav Maga or even Silat. There's so much to learn, you can spend a lifetime at it, and I probably will.

electric-amish | 07-14-2009 07:49 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Throat stops em cold. Did it by accident 1 time and the respect level was incredible for the rest of High School from my antagonist. Knees stop the chase but they can be hard to hit. E-A

maven | 07-14-2009 07:57 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Quote:
Originally Posted by electric-amish (Post 1817353) Throat stops em cold. Did it by accident 1 time and the respect level was incredible for the rest of High School from my antagonist. Knees stop the chase but they can be hard to hit. E-A
agreed. in my experience knees are usually the easier target, but if you can create an opening for the throat, all the better. Of course, if they give the opening, that's the best you can hope for. Right behind the ear is a nice spot also.

thorgrim | 07-15-2009 02:17 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian-guerilla (Post 1812651) what targets would you target on an attacker ? no guns allowed
Chokes, the type that cut off blood flow to the brain work well. That or knocking the mofo out with parts of your body or other blunt objects. Both will work well regardless of how enraged or desensitized or drugged out an attacker is. In my experience trying to focus on small specific targets might work well on passive training partners but it doesn't work in the real world. If we are talking knives then heart or neck are sure to stop things quick but any deep cut will cause mechanical failure of the affected body part due to muscles and tendon being severed so maybe it is not as important.

Professur | 07-15-2009 02:42 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) It's been my experience that people unexperienced in hand to hand tend to straighten their forward knee. A thrust kick to that knee ends any fight before it's begun. Seeing that knee kept bent, to me, is the first sign that the other guy might know enough to make the fight fair. I never, ever engage in a fair fight.

Twisted Avatar | 07-15-2009 02:51 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian-guerilla (Post 1812651) what targets would you target on an attacker ?
KNEE IN A HEART BEAT Your attacker would anticpate you trying to do something "above the belt" so they are mentally prepared for this (Block, Perry,Jab) Even the groin is understood to be a focal point for obvious reasons. But a Knee is totally out there....... you are not expecting it....... or even thinking about it, but it supports your entire frame and abilty the to carry out an attack. By feigning that you "lost your footing" you can fool an attacker to move in or not sense the true nature of the body part you are after. As Former wrestler I can tell you knees are dam near everything and very vunerable. You get the Knee of your attacker.........ITS OVER AND THEY KNOW IT. T

still afloat | 07-15-2009 03:10 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Patrick Swayze / Dalton said in the movie Roadhouse " Take the biggest guy in the world, shatter his knee and he'll drop like a stone."

Mantokir | 07-15-2009 03:21 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Quote:
Originally Posted by electric-amish (Post 1817353) Throat stops em cold. Did it by accident 1 time and the respect level was incredible for the rest of High School from my antagonist. Knees stop the chase but they can be hard to hit. E-A
I got kicked in the throat doing Krav Maga training (defending while on your back) and the throats no joke... it hurts, it's hard to breath and you immidiately react to it and back up. It was an accidental hit... but still hurt.

hypervel | 07-15-2009 07:13 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Not sure, but I won't be arrested for carrying a 2.5' section of garden hose. kidding..... what would I target? The guy's family. Security stooges carry ID too. Knock em down, strip their license and pay the nice folks a visit. Of course, I'm just playing. I studiously avoid confrontation. I won't step foot into a bar these days.

maven | 07-15-2009 07:26 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantokir (Post 1818936) I got kicked in the throat doing Krav Maga training (defending while on your back) and the throats no joke... it hurts, it's hard to breath and you immidiately react to it and back up. It was an accidental hit... but still hurt.
Yeah, people panic when it comes to the throat, even when the damage is minimal. Same thing with the eyes and the groin (guys). It's a very natural reaction even when you know better. Chokes are good, but always try and take away their leverage. If you get a rear choke (standing), give 'em a good stomp/kick to the leg to throw them off balance and use their own weight against them.

maven | 07-15-2009 07:57 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1819371) Eyes, throat, knees, elbows, chokes. Stay away from the mouth and the teeth. It is pretty easy to break someone's collar bone with a straight punch. Kicks to the legs against someone that isn't conditioned will lock up their leg muscles and charley horse them. Leg sweeps put them down or dislocate knee joints. With a knife cut/slash anything that is offered (as a defense) [you don't want to be cut across a major artery: wrist, under arm, neck, femoral] It can take as little as 30 seconds to bleed out, three or four small cuts can do that. Stabbing is offensive imo. *easy to break your hand on someone's head too...use open hand/palm/heel when you can. **I would avoid groin shots...if you miss you will make your opponent go into berserker mode.
In general 2lbs of direct pressure will break a collarbone, at least according to my instructor. I've never had to try ;0) I do agree on being careful for the attempts on the groin. I failed to mention that I go for it when someone is essentially charging me, or as a finishing move to a combination of strikes.

Canadian-guerilla | 07-17-2009 02:44 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Police statistics reveal the following as the top ten street attacks in the UK: Aggressor threatens potential victim and invades his personal space. The victim responds by pushing the aggressor away. This is normally followed by the Aggressor striking first, to the head. A swinging punch to the head. A front clothing grab, one handed, followed by punch to the head. A front clothing grab, two hands, followed by a head butt. A front clothing grab, two hands, followed by a knee to the groin. A bottle, glass, or ashtray to the head. A lashing kick to groin/lower legs. A broken bottle/glass jabbed to face. A slash with knife, most commonly a 3 to 4" lock blade knife or kitchen utility knife. A grappling style head lock. http://www.urban-kravmaga.co.uk/top10attacks.htm

Twisted Avatar | 07-17-2009 02:50 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian-guerilla (Post 1822473) Police statistics reveal the following as the top ten street attacks in the UK: Aggressor threatens potential victim and invades his personal space. The victim responds by pushing the aggressor away. This is normally followed by the Aggressor striking first, to the head. A swinging punch to the head. A front clothing grab, one handed, followed by punch to the head. A front clothing grab, two hands, followed by a head butt. A front clothing grab, two hands, followed by a knee to the groin. A bottle, glass, or ashtray to the head. A lashing kick to groin/lower legs. A broken bottle/glass jabbed to face. A slash with knife, most commonly a 3 to 4" lock blade knife or kitchen utility knife. A grappling style head lock. http://www.urban-kravmaga.co.uk/top10attacks.htm
How is this possible?? Havent they been banned?? Dear God in heaven WHERE ARE THE POLITICIANS?? WE NEED STRONGER LAWS TO STOP THIS INSANITY BEFORE EVERYBODY GETS KILLED!!!! T

stranger | 07-17-2009 03:31 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Been my experience that most street thugs and toughs like those wild looping haymaker punches. Bigger guys especially want to grapple and get you on the ground. Most leave a guard wide open. Get in close and go for throat, eyes, close knees to the groin. Lots of inexperienced "toughs" will duck their heads when they charge in. A hammer blow behind the ear takes alot of steam out a guy.

morganchaser | 07-17-2009 03:58 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian-guerilla (Post 1812651) what targets would you target on an attacker ? no guns allowed
Knees, fingers, throat, ears, eyes, groin. In no specific order. Solar Plexus is difficult to attack with any effect, and I think the only reason it is given preference in a lot of martial arts is for sporting purposes. This type of fighting makes the typical MMA clown pretty ineffective in a real street fight due to their preference for BJJ grappling. Lots of fingers, eyes, and throat to play with. It's pretty obnoxious sparing with friends because they leave these areas wide open but it's not like I'm willing to stab, gouge, or break them. BJJ is a sport as far as I'm concerned. The reality of knives, multiple attackers, and brutal tactics make's them pretty ineffective on the street in my experience. I know two girls who are like level 3 in Krav Maga and watching them wail on guys is pretty hilarious. Of course: my CCW took a lot less effort and is even more effective... ASP is a pretty good equalizer as well. I'd like to invest more in martial arts training, but pepper spray, batons, tazers, and guns give you more bang for your buck.

renegade_01 | 07-17-2009 05:15 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) I drop kicked a kid in the chest once and thought I killed him as he was lying on the floor out of breath and unable to speak...that was scarry. Punched a guy in his eardrum once....that was pretty bad, for him.

Professur | 07-17-2009 10:20 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) And let's not forget the Glasgow Kiss. Get in close and drive your forehead into his nose. Even if you don't break the nose, he's blinded for more than long enough for you to either get in a clean free shot, or bug out.

SilverCity | 07-17-2009 10:33 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) 1 Attachment(s) Just carry one of these...muggers seem to leave me alone.

CANUCKFARMER | 07-17-2009 10:52 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) What a bunch of horse shit. Go get into a few real street fights and see how your "training" helps you. Until you have several dozen "real" encounters,you are what is called a "novice". Sure you can get lucky and knock out a few drunks and think your HEE MAN,but i assure you there is somebody ALWAYS better than you. The retarted karaty crap will only give you a false sence of security. Fighting is the most painfull and scary thing you could ever imagine doing. But it will teach you something about yourself. Your limitations.

Canadian-guerilla | 07-17-2009 11:29 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Quote:
Originally Posted by CANUCKFARMER (Post 1823128) What a bunch of horse shit. Go get into a few real street fights and see how your "training" helps you. Until you have several dozen "real" encounters,you are what is called a "novice". Sure you can get lucky and knock out a few drunks and think your HEE MAN,but i assure you there is somebody ALWAYS better than you. The retarted karaty crap will only give you a false sence of security. Fighting is the most painfull and scary thing you could ever imagine doing. But it will teach you something about yourself. Your limitations.
no one is trying to be a HE MAN here i'll be the first one to say there will always be someone else who is faster, stronger etc and hopefully, that is where my past experiences/training will help me to survive a confrontation when you were young, did you drive a car right away without any practice ? people train for everything, firefighters, military, astronauts and this training is all they have until they get into a real-life situation you don't think martial arts training would help towards a real life situation ? have you ever taken up a martial art ?

thorgrim | 07-18-2009 04:18 AM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1822594) Knees, fingers, throat, ears, eyes, groin. In no specific order. Solar Plexus is difficult to attack with any effect, and I think the only reason it is given preference in a lot of martial arts is for sporting purposes. This type of fighting makes the typical MMA clown pretty ineffective in a real street fight due to their preference for BJJ grappling. Lots of fingers, eyes, and throat to play with. It's pretty obnoxious sparing with friends because they leave these areas wide open but it's not like I'm willing to stab, gouge, or break them. BJJ is a sport as far as I'm concerned. The reality of knives, multiple attackers, and brutal tactics make's them pretty ineffective on the street in my experience. I know two girls who are like level 3 in Krav Maga and watching them wail on guys is pretty hilarious. Of course: my CCW took a lot less effort and is even more effective... ASP is a pretty good equalizer as well. I'd like to invest more in martial arts training, but pepper spray, batons, tazers, and guns give you more bang for your buck.
I agree with you that BJJ isn't good for a street fight but there is a lot more to MMA then BJJ. The typical "MMA clown" has an absolutely huge advantage in a street fight. All this pinpoint crap won't even work on a guy like me. Some things you just can't learn other then by sparring and we do a lot of it both standing and on the ground. After a while your balance, footwork, timing, agility, slipping/parrying, pain tolerance etc get so good an average person has no chance.

morganchaser | 07-18-2009 08:45 AM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Quote:
Originally Posted by thorgrim (Post 1823415) I agree with you that BJJ isn't good for a street fight but there is a lot more to MMA then BJJ. The typical "MMA clown" has an absolutely huge advantage in a street fight. All this pinpoint crap won't even work on a guy like me. Some things you just can't learn other then by sparring and we do a lot of it both standing and on the ground. After a while your balance, footwork, timing, agility, slipping/parrying, pain tolerance etc get so good an average person has no chance.
My bad. "MMA clown" was a poor choice of words. Around here I know a bunch of people who watch UFC, get pumped up, and then wanna spar in BJJ cause that's a non-hostile activity. I guess a lot of them had wrestling in high school or something. My perception is that this is a pretty common thing, and that these types are everywhere. I know a MMA fighter and he seemed to do as much boxing as anything. Maybe Muay Thai? I don't really know what striking arts get mixed in with the BJJ. Nice thing about trained fighters is most are pretty easy to get along with. Make's my life a lot simpler.

CANUCKFARMER | 07-19-2009 02:44 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) I have had some proffesional traing,and yes it helped...a little. But the fights where i had my ass kicked taught me infinitly more. You ever been punched in the head twenty times full force-bare fist? You ever start puking cause you have swallowed to much blood? And more important questions- Do you KNOW you can keep fighting after these things? Do you understand how difficult figting two men at the same time is? Have you even contimplated that your best friend and worst enemy is a head but? Fighting is brutal and dangerous and nothing like "a kick to the knee is all you need". And if you are attacked-guess what. Your attacker probably has a no lose angle against you,weapon or buddies,and you are in deep sh@t. A good pair of running shoes and thirty minutes on the tred mill is what most guys need.

Canadian-guerilla | 07-19-2009 03:47 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) what's with the attitude ? you think you're the only person to ever be in a fight, . . . . and lose ? Quote:
Originally Posted by CANUCKFARMER Fighting is brutal and dangerous and nothing like "a kick to the knee is all you need".
golly gee, master caine, ya think ? i never said "a kick to the knee is all you need " do you have " a favorite move " that you would try first in a one on one confrontation ? if you want to give us any more of your wisdom from your vast experiences from fighting, loose the attitude first AWARENESS IS EVERYTHING - TA maybe the best defense is not letting yourself get into a situation in the first place

CANUCKFARMER | 07-19-2009 08:50 PM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) New i seen you guys somewhere. You Tube
You Tube

CANUCKFARMER | 07-20-2009 01:31 AM
Re: Combative Anatomy ( no guns allowed ) Well WildCard-iknow your a master,never hit with a closed fist.Stupidest thing ever posted.

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