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Lars Ragnarsson | 06-28-2009 03:57 AM
Is This Storage Plan Viable? After having the Gold (and silver) and Guns parts somewhat covered, I'm now working on the third leg of the triad, Grub. And most of you know how much physical space that takes up. Well, I'm busting at the seams here, and if the old lady's here when my 5 super-pails from Emergency Essentials arrive, TSHTF will come a lot earlier for me than everyone else. Therefore, here's my plan for storing them. I live in the Florida Panhandle, so attic, garage and shed storage are out. However, I have an above ground swimming pool that is completely surrounded by a walk-around deck. The entire area underneath the deck has the weed plastic with about 3" of pea gravel on top of it. My plan is to dig a hole for the superpails under the deck, deep enough that I can put about a foot of gravel under the pails for drainage, and have just the top 2" or so of the buckets above ground. We don't flood in that portion of the yard (we've been through Ivan and Dennis), so I don't think I have to worry about the water getting deep enough to cover the tops of the pails. I then plan on filling the rest of the hole with pea gravel, again to ensure drainage. My thinking is this: The area under the deck gets no sunlight at all. It's near 16,000 gallons of water, which absorbs thermal energy in the summer and gives it off in the winter, which will lessen the effect of temperature extremes. Being buried underground should also help keep the temperature of the food in the pails constant. These superpails have the product already sealed in Mylar bags, and then the pails themselves are sealed. My question is whether I have to worry about water leeching through my pails and mylar into the product. I don't think I do, but I'd like to hear about others' experiences. As far as temperature stability, this might not be optimum, but it beats the hell out of keeping it in a shed or in the garage. Anyway, all input will be appreciated.

Dave Thomas | 06-28-2009 04:06 AM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Ragnarsson (Post 1790322) These superpails have the product already sealed in Mylar bags, and then the pails themselves are sealed. My question is whether I have to worry about water leeching through my pails and mylar into the product. I don't think I do, but I'd like to hear about others' experiences. As far as temperature stability, this might not be optimum, but it beats the hell out of keeping it in a shed or in the garage. Anyway, all input will be appreciated.
I don't have any specific advice for you Lars, but I've thought of the same thing as well. I live in SE Texas, and NO where is cool. And it's just impractical to store this stuff in air conditioning constantly. I went on a searching frenzy to find out what the temperature of the soil down to about 6' was. No such luck. All I could find was the type of medium that was on top of the dirt effected how hot the soil got. I'd assume it would at least be a few degrees cooler than having it sit in an un-air conditioned shed that's for sure. I wish I had a cheap temperature probe that was about 4' long so I could go around shoving it into into the ground and seeing how cool it was down there, and what the temperature change was like.

Zusn | 06-28-2009 11:29 AM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? Hey Lars, Do you have any sort of crawlspace under your house?

Iptuous | 06-28-2009 11:36 AM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? crawlspace in FL? i think that's only up north.... what you need to do is construct a sofa out of the pails slap some cushions on it.... staple some flowery fabric to it... then present it to her as a birthday gift or something....use her favorite color and incorporate something sentimental.... tell her you made it so she feels obligated not only to keep it, but to compliment you on your handicraft

GOLD DUCK | 06-28-2009 11:47 AM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Ragnarsson (Post 1790322) After having the Gold (and silver) and Guns parts somewhat covered, I'm now working on the third leg of the triad, Grub. And most of you know how much physical space that takes up. Well, I'm busting at the seams here, and if the old lady's here when my 5 super-pails from Emergency Essentials arrive, TSHTF will come a lot earlier for me than everyone else. Therefore, here's my plan for storing them. I live in the Florida Panhandle, so attic, garage and shed storage are out. However, I have an above ground swimming pool that is completely surrounded by a walk-around deck. The entire area underneath the deck has the weed plastic with about 3" of pea gravel on top of it. My plan is to dig a hole for the superpails under the deck, deep enough that I can put about a foot of gravel under the pails for drainage, and have just the top 2" or so of the buckets above ground. We don't flood in that portion of the yard (we've been through Ivan and Dennis), so I don't think I have to worry about the water getting deep enough to cover the tops of the pails. I then plan on filling the rest of the hole with pea gravel, again to ensure drainage. My thinking is this: The area under the deck gets no sunlight at all. It's near 16,000 gallons of water, which absorbs thermal energy in the summer and gives it off in the winter, which will lessen the effect of temperature extremes. Being buried underground should also help keep the temperature of the food in the pails constant. These superpails have the product already sealed in Mylar bags, and then the pails themselves are sealed. My question is whether I have to worry about water leeching through my pails and mylar into the product. I don't think I do, but I'd like to hear about others' experiences. As far as temperature stability, this might not be optimum, but it beats the hell out of keeping it in a shed or in the garage. Anyway, all input will be appreciated.
QWAK,Lars Ragnarsson,Given your situation it sounds like a GOOD plan to me!:yes::thinkey: the DUCK :15_1_70v:

GOLD DUCK | 06-28-2009 11:56 AM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Thomas (Post 1790328) I don't have any specific advice for you Lars, but I've thought of the same thing as well. I live in SE Texas, and NO where is cool. And it's just impractical to store this stuff in air conditioning constantly. I went on a searching frenzy to find out what the temperature of the soil down to about 6' was. No such luck. All I could find was the type of medium that was on top of the dirt effected how hot the soil got. I'd assume it would at least be a few degrees cooler than having it sit in an un-air conditioned shed that's for sure. I wish I had a cheap temperature probe that was about 4' long so I could go around shoving it into into the ground and seeing how cool it was down there, and what the temperature change was like.
QWAK,Dave Thomas, Just a foot below the surface it is MUCH COOLER and actualy is a SURVIVAL tecnique to protect your body should you find your self in such a situation!:yes: :thinkey: It is why wild critters dig holes in the ground to use as dens and it has worked for millions of years for THEM!:yes::shine: the DUCK :15_1_70v:

Zusn | 06-28-2009 12:13 PM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? Quote:
Originally Posted by Iptuous (Post 1790607) crawlspace in FL? i think that's only up north....
Just in case there is a crawlspace. www.crawlspaces.org

electric-amish | 06-28-2009 12:21 PM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? I like it. The thing to do is moderate temp extreems noteing that Chemicle reactions approx double with every 10 degree rise. Sounds like you have planed it out. Maybe add some form of Styrofoam insulation over the top and burry 6-10 inches for a quick undig:smile:. My Great Grand father used to lay about a foot of dry straw on the ground then stack his Potatoes and cover with a couple of feet of straw for the Winter. Dig them out as needed and repack the straw. Same principles. Straw on the bottom kept them dry---straw on top kept the temp constant. Best of luck. E-A

Lars Ragnarsson | 06-28-2009 12:26 PM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? Quote:
Originally Posted by Zusn (Post 1790602) Hey Lars, Do you have any sort of crawlspace under your house?
Nope. Concrete slab.... Crawlspaces are actually quite common due to the high water table. Very few basements in these parts. But most of the newer construction that's not close to the water (those have to be built on pilings) is slab. Thanks for the link, though.

Lars Ragnarsson | 06-28-2009 12:30 PM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? Quote:
Originally Posted by Iptuous (Post 1790607) crawlspace in FL? i think that's only up north.... what you need to do is construct a sofa out of the pails slap some cushions on it.... staple some flowery fabric to it... then present it to her as a birthday gift or something....use her favorite color and incorporate something sentimental.... tell her you made it so she feels obligated not only to keep it, but to compliment you on your handicraft
That's actually one hell of an idea. I think I'll do that when I finally get to my homestead - instead of buying furniture, I'll make my own couch and chair frames large enough to cover a boatload of pails - then just slap some upholstery on it, and I'm good to go! Hell, bedframes, too while I'm at it! Won't work in the current situation, though. The wife likes to rearrange the furniture about 4 times a year - I can hear the screaming now about having to move a bunch of superpails, too!

lessoil=+pm | 06-28-2009 12:55 PM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? i'm fixin to put some buckets[dry ice packed] in a damp- at times wet cellar. i'l probably open a bucket a year from now- if ts has not htf to check for moisture damage. like gortex which let's sweat out but no rain in i hope the bleed of the buckets is minimal enough to keep the co2 in enough, & the wet/moisture out. doin the same essentially!

gunDriller | 06-28-2009 04:29 PM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Ragnarsson (Post 1790322) Therefore, here's my plan for storing them. I live in the Florida Panhandle, so attic, garage and shed storage are out. However, I have an above ground swimming pool that is completely surrounded by a walk-around deck. The entire area underneath the deck has the weed plastic with about 3" of pea gravel on top of it. My plan is to dig a hole for the superpails under the deck, deep enough that I can put about a foot of gravel under the pails for drainage, and have just the top 2" or so of the buckets above ground. We don't flood in that portion of the yard (we've been through Ivan and Dennis), so I don't think I have to worry about the water getting deep enough to cover the tops of the pails. I then plan on filling the rest of the hole with pea gravel, again to ensure drainage.
is it feasible to do some of the work as an experiment, and stick a thermocouple down where the food is, so you can keep track of the temp. ? i bought a digital thermometer with 2 channels for about $20 at Radio Shack. it has a thermocouple on about a 10 foot extension cord. i used it outdoors to monitor temperature in a hot compost pile over the winter (it got up to 130 degrees F, while air temp was about 40 F), and it survived that minor beating.

TheSimpleton | 07-02-2009 12:29 PM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? Composting thermometers are 3' long. Temperature always drops off per foot underground, where it's always 55f. I would think 6' would always be cave temperature, but it would depend on the sun hitting the direct soil. The insulation is an excellent idea, in Canada they insulate outside the house slab, sloping away like a curtain, which helps bring the 50f ground temp up to the surface. The same would be true of burial, as well as making it cleaner. TS "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But under the name of ‘liberalism’ they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without knowing how it happened… I no longer need to run as a Presidential candidate for the Socialist Party. The Democrat Party has adopted our platform. – Norman Thomas, six-time U.S. presidential candidate for the Socialist Party, 1944.

Dave Thomas | 07-02-2009 12:58 PM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? Lars, I found this website on under ground passive air conditioning. They touch on ground temperature briefly here and there. Apparently in places like Texas and Florida where the sun heats the ground something fierce, you have to go down 12 FEET, to get to a level where there is NO temperature change. Now I'm sure that doesn't mean you could say go down four or so and see some cooler temperatures. But it's going to be tough where we live. Anyways here's the website, pretty cool info too! I was wondering instead of the air tubes underground if you could pump water underground and keep recycling the water and cool that way, okay I'll shut up now. Scroll about 3/4 the ways down, you will see an area titled "Hot Climate Applications" http://mb-soft.com/solar/saving.html

GOLD DUCK | 07-02-2009 01:23 PM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? QWAK,This could be a solution IF you use well water. :yes::thinkey: Perhaps even city water just turn on the cold water and check the temp.:yes: My well water is about 47 degrees year round SOoooooooo IF you put a coil of plastic pipe under your storage aeria and ran your house water threw the coil befor it goes to your house every time you turn on the water in the house to wash dishes,take a bath or do laundry that chilled water would CHILL your storage aeria!:yes: IF you are diging the hole any way and going to line it with foam insolation a coil of black plastic pipe would be a fairly cheep addition to the project.:thinkey::yes: I do somthing similar using an old water heater tank that TEMPERS the water going to my water hearer -- uses a lot less BTUS to heat 75/80 degree water than 47 degree water!:yes: the DUCK

Dave Thomas | 07-02-2009 02:19 PM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? Quote:
Originally Posted by GOLD DUCK (Post 1797903) My well water is about 47 degrees year round SOoooooooo IF you put a coil of plastic pipe under your storage aeria and ran your house water threw the coil befor it goes to your house every time you turn on the water in the house to wash dishes,take a bath or do laundry that chilled water would CHILL your storage aeria!:yes:
I'm envious, you don't even need to put a loop under the house, all you need to do is pump that cool well water into a loop then discharge the heated water back into the ground table. In effect you'd have an almost never ending supply of chilled water, the only energy costs you'd have was pumping the well water up, and blowing a fan over it.

GOLD DUCK | 07-02-2009 03:03 PM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Thomas (Post 1797982) I'm envious, you don't even need to put a loop under the house, all you need to do is pump that cool well water into a loop then discharge the heated water back into the ground table. In effect you'd have an almost never ending supply of chilled water, the only energy costs you'd have was pumping the well water up, and blowing a fan over it.
QWAK,Yes that would be basicly true BUT I have pulled that pump and 165' of pipe out of the hole ALONE 3 times in the passed and I'm turning 60 this year and I don't want to be replacing that pump agen!:452::452::452: Also that pump don't run for FREE :452: 1.5 hp uses a lot of electricity. I do have a shallow 16' deep by 6' diamiter hand doug well right next to the deep well and have concidered placing coils of black pipe in it to gain the same effect but not shure of that water temp and SOoooooooooooo many projects to do and just ONE DUCK and I am slowing down big time the last 6 or 8 months. Hard to keep the get up and go -- GOING!:yes::111::4_1_72::shine: The mind is still creative but the body is geting tired:wink: -- wish I had not waisted so much effort on less important things when I was younger!:yes::yes::shine: Things take SO much longer to get done the older I get -- THAT was NOT part of my PLAN! :452::111::4_1_72::shine::10_1_19: the DUCK :15_1_70v:

StrawMan=Corporation | 07-02-2009 03:23 PM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? You need a vault with a lid that is below grade. Think Concrete or Cinder Block like in T2 where Arnold pulls off the cover and exposes a machine gun storage area. That would be easy to build and would also be out of sight. Keep it at least 1-2 ft below grade that would keep it cool as well.

Lars Ragnarsson | 07-02-2009 05:17 PM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? Thanks to all for the latest replies. I was hoping to keep this simple (you know, like a hole in the ground), but it's obviously something that's capable of taking on a life of its own. Lots of good suggestions - I'll have to look hard at them and see which are doable when I get back. Heading to CA for a few days for some R&R (of course, with the wife and 3 kids, I'll need the R&R when I get back!) Thanks again, all!

Dave Thomas | 07-02-2009 06:20 PM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? I guess in summation is that you're probably better off burying the stuff provided you water tight everything properly. This is a much better alternative than storing it in say a garage or attic, this much we do know.

Lars Ragnarsson | 07-02-2009 06:30 PM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Thomas (Post 1798269) I guess in summation is that you're probably better off burying the stuff provided you water tight everything properly. This is a much better alternative than storing it in say a garage or attic, this much we do know.
Agreed. I just remember awhile back, maybe a year or more, someone posted a series of videos about LT grain storage. I remember one where he opened a 5 gal pail of rice that had been kept in a shed for 15 years or so. No mylar bags - I think he said they weren't around when he put them up. Now this was in Idaho, so the heat wasn't as extreme as where we are, but nonetheless, I'm sure the temps got over 100 degrees easily in that shed. Anyway, I remember the top couple of inches of the pail was slightly discolored, but he said he detected no odors or any indication that it was inedible. Keeping that in mind, I think my stuff will be okay, provided my buckets and mylar keep the water out. As I mentioned earlier, the high water table here is a concern on that front. As long as I make provisions for waterproofing and drainage, I should be okay.

lessoil=+pm | 07-02-2009 10:58 PM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? one other thing re water penetration. i'll probably doubly seal my buckets- food grade w/ the rubber seals- w/ a polymer/plastic glue available at home depot- around the outside between lid, & bucket. it is one of the few glue/sealants i have found works on plastics. in with the silicones, etc. near paint at my local home depot.

StrawMan=Corporation | 07-02-2009 11:34 PM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? Use Gamma seals. That way you can seal the item up and then open easier than just sealing with the standard 5 gallon bucket lids. Search here or use google to find places online that sell them. if you buy in bulk they get down to the 5.00 price range. http://www.gamma2.net/ http://www.gamma2.net/new/hardware.html http://www.gamma2.net/images/GSL-main-button.gif Quote:
Originally Posted by lessoil=+pm (Post 1798732) one other thing re water penetration. i'll probably doubly seal my buckets- food grade w/ the rubber seals- w/ a polymer/plastic glue available at home depot. it is one of the few glue/sealants i have found works on plastics. in with the silicones, etc. near paint at my local home depot.

Eyebone | 07-03-2009 12:05 AM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? Won't rodents chew the buckets if they're outside?

vector03 | 07-03-2009 06:08 AM
Re: Is This Storage Plan Viable? Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyebone (Post 1798805) Won't rodents chew the buckets if they're outside?
That's what I was wondering too. Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Ragnarsson (Post 1790322) Therefore, here's my plan for storing them. I live in the Florida Panhandle, so attic, garage and shed storage are out. However, I have an above ground swimming pool that is completely surrounded by a walk-around deck. The entire area underneath the deck has the weed plastic with about 3" of pea gravel on top of it. My plan is to dig a hole for the superpails under the deck, deep enough that I can put about a foot of gravel under the pails for drainage, and have just the top 2" or so of the buckets above ground. We don't flood in that portion of the yard (we've been through Ivan and Dennis), so I don't think I have to worry about the water getting deep enough to cover the tops of the pails. I then plan on filling the rest of the hole with pea gravel, again to ensure drainage.
I would dig my hole and lay pressure treated wood in the bottom and build a little retaining wall in the hole on all sides. Might not be a bad idea to tar the outward facing sides of the wood. Pack them together tight. Next line the bottom with pea gravel 3 - 6 inches for drainage. Place 5 gallon buckets in rubber storage containers as suggested throughout this thread. Build a top cover from pressure treated wood (taring outward facing) to cover the entire thing. Finally, cover the top with dirt and a layer of gravel on the top. I would grade this slightly to aid in drainage. If you're worried about ground movement from temperature changes, you could put a layer of Styrofoam on the outermost edge before laying wood. My father and I installed an above ground pool 4 ft below ground and built a deck all the way around. Used the Styrofoam trick to give the walls of the pool greater flex in relation to the surrounding ground.

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