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Tn...Andy | 12-21-2008 07:27 PM
and now they pay me...... 1 Attachment(s) 5 little kilowatt hrs this first day, but a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Camp Bassfish | 12-21-2008 07:33 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Sweet deal!!

Atahualpa | 12-21-2008 07:43 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Was that total output of the solar system or was that excess power?...either way, this is almost the lowest arch of the sun for the year. When the sun is pounding in the summer, it will look much different. I have a two panel system with a inverter/charger on my RV and love it, it silently keeps my batteries up year-round...I hardly think about anymore...it just does it.

GoldWampum | 12-21-2008 07:51 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Doing a little electron farming I see Andy. Plant them in the winter and receive a full bounty by summer. Eggs-allent.

PatColo | 12-21-2008 07:55 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... In Cali with PG&E, they don't pay you, and they don't apply excess production to your gas bill either. Classic CorpGuv racket. But solar's green, so you should do it! :coolbeer: Quote:
Originally Posted by PatColo (Post 1321334) this solar article is pretty entry level, but a good overview... "The New Age Of Photo" http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuild.../021192056.pdf Friend in CA installed a grid-tied solar system on a rental duplex this year. If you go with the grid system there, with PG&E as your provider, and taking advantage of the state's solar incentives, it's a deal loaded with fishhooks. They could only install as many KW system, per duplex unit, as the tenants' electricity usage over the past year indicated they actually use. So one unit, a 3BR/2BA got 20 solar panels, the other unit, a 2/1, got only 12 panels. They have their own inverters and 2-way electric meters installed. But when these tenants move and new tenants move in, they're all stuck with solar production based on the usage of people they never knew who lived there in '07-'08. If they don't change their consumption, the electricity component of their energy bill should be pretty much eliminated month to month. If they pushed more back to the grid than they used, they get a credit, which does not count towards their nat gas usage... the credit just builds until another month when they use more electricity than they produce. If they move out and close their PG&E account, and if there's a net electricity credit at that time, they do not receive a check for this (nor does the owner)... PG&E just keeps it. Basically CorpGuv in CA has the grid-tied solar thing sewn up to make sure it's only beneficial to PG&E... reduce your electricity consumption to below the solar output, they'll take the difference and sell it to someone else, but at no point will they pay the producer cash for the surplus their solar investment produced, even upon closing the account.

Tn...Andy | 12-21-2008 07:57 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Total output first day....and it was a crappy solar day. Every thing runs thru that meter, they pay me 15 cents/hr, then I get to use it. If I don't, it will flow back to the grid.

British Sovereign | 12-21-2008 08:21 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... What kind of set up did you purchase and from where? A solar panel installer would be great job opportunity in our area. We don't have a single company in our town of 250,000.

TechGuy | 12-21-2008 08:44 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Very nice Andy!!!! A similar setup is definitely on my wish list! Hopefully the new administration will add some more subsidies..... Gotta be something useful coming from DC.

Dude | 12-21-2008 08:45 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Write an ebook. Gardening Beef cattle Water sources Food storage and canning Solar Living off the grid Everything else you've been working on I will buy the first copy.

thrifty_bob | 12-21-2008 10:08 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Sweet! Is that mandated there? What power co.? How many watts of panels did you put in?

mtnman | 12-21-2008 10:37 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... We want details!!!!

RossL | 12-21-2008 10:52 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... 5kW is a great accomplishment for day 1. congratulations.

RichG | 12-21-2008 10:56 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Sir...you are my hero. Does it look like Xmas inside your house yet? :rofl: :smokin:

immanti | 12-21-2008 11:03 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 1477133) We want details!!!!
I second that. Ballpark cost of install?

renegade_01 | 12-22-2008 01:09 AM
Re: and now they pay me...... I've been on the MLS search for 2 hrs...trying to find property...so I can do this.

Fullpower | 12-22-2008 01:30 AM
Re: and now they pay me...... HAppy Solstice. Shortest day of the year, I also had some solar gain today, house went off grid for 4 hours. I am NOT selling any of it. just keeping the batteries HOT. good job there TN Andy.

nub | 12-22-2008 07:42 AM
Re: and now they pay me...... My daily average here in Ca. is 18-14 KW.......usually around 23-20 amps. On a heavily clouded day I don't care how big a persons array is it's not going to produce....we average 300 sunny days a year here and very little fog because of our elevation.....plenty of fog down below us though I'm 100% off grid so mine is all stored and used. Andy, I'm guessing you have a "sunny boy" inverter..... they seem to be most popular for grid inter tie (around here) :ok: for you Andy

Glass | 12-22-2008 08:31 AM
Re: and now they pay me...... Quote:
Originally Posted by TechGuy (Post 147700) Gotta be something useful coming from DC.
yeah getting some AC from DC has gotta be good. :wink:

Publico, Pro Se | 12-22-2008 09:46 AM
Re: and now they pay me...... Now that your system is part of the electrical grid can't the government take your property under sort existing Executive Orders?

silverJeep | 12-22-2008 10:49 AM
Re: and now they pay me...... Quote:
Originally Posted by Dude (Post 1477002) Write an ebook. Gardening Beef cattle Water sources Food storage and canning Solar Living off the grid Everything else you've been working on I will buy the first copy.
If he does that, he won't have time to do any of the above.

Tn...Andy | 12-22-2008 02:30 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosepublico (Post 1477566) Now that your system is part of the electrical grid can't the government take your property under sort existing Executive Orders?
Well....I supose they could try.....

Tn...Andy | 12-22-2008 02:37 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Details: 12--175 watt 24v panels in 2 arrays of 6 panels each on some homebuilt single axis trackers ( run by a DC linear actuator ) 1050 watts per array max. 2 60amp Outback charge controllers 2 GTFX2425 Outback inverters ( 2500watt each ) in master/slave arrangement to produce 240. These are grid tie when there is grid, but if grid power goes down, they switch over to battery power for backup. Outback Mate to control and monitor the works. 8 L16 400amp/hr 6v deep cycle lead acid batteries wired in two banks of 4 @ 24v. Total cost: about 18,000 bucks....material only.

British Sovereign | 12-22-2008 02:41 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Where did you purchase? It's difficult to know who to trust in the business. We don't have a local distributor. Brilliant set up!

immanti | 12-22-2008 02:55 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Quote:
Originally Posted by Tn...Andy (Post 1477866) Details: 12--175 watt 24v panels in 2 arrays of 6 panels each on some homebuilt single axis trackers ( run by a DC linear actuator ) 1050 watts per array max. 2 60amp Outback charge controllers 2 GTFX2425 Outback inverters ( 2500watt each ) in master/slave arrangement to produce 240. These are grid tie when there is grid, but if grid power goes down, they switch over to battery power for backup. Outback Mate to control and monitor the works. 8 L16 400amp/hr 6v deep cycle lead acid batteries wired in two banks of 4 @ 24v. Total cost: about 18,000 bucks....material only.
Very cool... A big step toward energy independence. Thanks for sharing, TnAndy.

British Sovereign | 12-22-2008 03:27 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... The ASG calculator estimated a 10 kW system. We burn 2080 kWH a month on average. I guess the energy to power 3 HVAC systems, 3 refigerators and 2 water heaters is going to be expensive. I might just build an addition on our home to use as an off the grid bunker type setup for the coming economic collapse. I've been looking into a solar water heater for several months now. Our current gas water heater isn't efficient. Andy, do you have any recommendations on a solar water heater?

brewer | 12-22-2008 04:50 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Howdy Andy, It's no wonder you haven't posted lately here at GIM... You've been twisting wires and cranking up that new solar system. How's the new greenhouse coming along? I just picked the last of the greenpeppers and drying them over the woodstove. The Bokchoy is still hanging in there even with 8 degree temps.outside and 40+ degrees inside. The best to you and your family in 09.. it will be an interesting ride.

Armed.peasant | 12-22-2008 06:10 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Do they still pay you for every kw you make? I think you still get a tax credit this year too? Not to mention you are now your own power company. Great stuff, good to see it up and running.

Tn...Andy | 12-22-2008 06:16 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Quote:
Originally Posted by British Sovereign (Post 1477928) The ASG calculator estimated a 10 kW system. We burn 2080 kWH a month on average. I guess the energy to power 3 HVAC systems, 3 refigerators and 2 water heaters is going to be expensive. I might just build an addition on our home to use as an off the grid bunker type setup for the coming economic collapse. I've been looking into a solar water heater for several months now. Our current gas water heater isn't efficient. Andy, do you have any recommendations on a solar water heater?
10kw system is probably gonna run 75,000 FRNs at least....the panels alone would run nearly 50k. Best thing you can do is knock down your electrical use in a serious way. We use 990-1000kw/hrs a month and have for 30 years. That is with 3 freezers, an older side by side fridge ( it uses 100kw/hrs a month compared to 50 for the same sized new Energy Star models ), electric stove, dryer, dishwasher, microwave. Also have a small heat pump for summer AC ( 2 ton Misubishi mini-split ductless unit ) that cools main living area only. I do no have a solar water heater....that may be next on the list, at least for greenhouse heat eventually. We use propane, and it is quite efficient, though I will go to a tankless model when this one dies. Best source of alt energy equipment I've found is: http://store.altenergystore.com/

Tn...Andy | 12-22-2008 06:34 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed.peasant (Post 1478130) Do they still pay you for every kw you make? I think you still get a tax credit this year too? Not to mention you are now your own power company. Great stuff, good to see it up and running.
Yes.....TVA deal is they pay 15cents for every hour you produce solar or wind.....hence the separate meter to keep track of it. Since we pay about 8 cents/hr, that is almost a 2 for 1 deal. THEN, you get the USE of that same hour IF you have enough running in the house, offsetting the need to buy that hour...so it's almost 3 for one.....you generate one, but you get almost 3 ! My calculations/anticipation was based on me generating 300-350 kw/hrs per month ( on average ), and thus, with the 3:1 advantage, that would offset about ALL my bill. Today ( which was a GREAT solar day as you know ) we generated 17 kw/hrs......I am hoping to do 11-12 per day year round average....so today was an above average day. When I looked in on the system today about noon, each array was doing just under 1,000 watts. Since I did a fixed mount in terms of horizon, using a compromise angle of 37 degrees that is about mid way between the winter point ( which would need to be about 40-41 ), and the summer point ( about 33-34 ), I thought that was pretty good...the max the panels are "supposed" to do is 1050 watts on each array.....so I'm hitting close. My east-west tracker follows the sun across the sky during the day, keeping the panels as close to 90 degrees as possible ( the fixed horizon mount is the limit to that ), then the reset automatically to due east after sunset to await the sun the next morning. My understanding is a single axis tracker increases panel efficiency about 30%, ( over completely fixed mounted panels ) and going to a double axis only adds about 5-7% more.....so I built the mounts fixed on the horizon, and mobile on the east-west axis. Tax creddit for this year is still 20% of money spent, with a 2,000 limit. NEXT year it goes to 30% with no limit. That's a real deal.

Tn...Andy | 12-22-2008 06:38 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer (Post 1478033) Howdy Andy, It's no wonder you haven't posted lately here at GIM... You've been twisting wires and cranking up that new solar system. How's the new greenhouse coming along? I just picked the last of the greenpeppers and drying them over the woodstove. The Bokchoy is still hanging in there even with 8 degree temps.outside and 40+ degrees inside. The best to you and your family in 09.. it will be an interesting ride.
Not using the greenhouse for anything but solar equiment at present.....doing some remodeling of the house over holidays.....but it dropped to 42 last night with 8 degrees the low and a high wind factor.....daytime high today was 25, and the greenhouse in the sun was 80 ! Best to you and yours as well......it will be an interesting ride. I suggest all prepare like you never have before, especially if starting late.

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TechGuy | 12-22-2008 06:40 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Andy: If TX had a real net metering law I would be all over this like a starved chihuahua on a porkchop. Unfortunately, TX uses the cost avoided rate. i.e. the going rate is 13cents per kwh. the cost ovoided rate is a round 6-7 cents. When we do solar, it is solely be because of distaster preparedness.

90%RealMoney | 12-22-2008 07:28 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Way to go Andy! You're definitely a pioneer around here.

blueice | 12-22-2008 07:55 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Quote:
Originally Posted by 90%RealMoney (Post 1478262) Way to go Andy! You're definetly a pioneer around here.
Master Andy is certainly GIMs A1 Handyman!!!!

Ralleia | 01-09-2009 11:21 AM
Re: and now they pay me...... Master Andy-- Do you get bad hailstorms down your way, and if so what are your plans to protect the panels? We get at least the nickel-sized stuff every year during tornado season, and six years ago there was a storm that damaged or totaled one out of every three roofs in the city to the north of us. Worry over hail damage is a detractor--how are you planning to deal with any hail?

Tallships | 01-09-2009 11:23 AM
Re: and now they pay me...... Totally awesome.

Victor | 01-09-2009 01:41 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... That single axis tracker that re-sets nightly is one sweet idea. Great call installing that. The efficiency boost from that instead of fixed panels will probably put you over the top in terms of offseting your whole electric bill. I too would be interested in hearing about your hail/high wind damage prep for the panels. Some type of covering possibly? Really sharp set up Andy. This is supper good info.

Tn...Andy | 01-09-2009 06:37 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Yes....I'm hoping the increased efficiency of the trackers does make the mount worth it. Playing around with it one day, I turned off one tracker as the just as the sun rose. The array that was turned east started generating about 650 watts ( each has their own charge controller and I can tell what each array is doing in terms of volts, amps, watts ) as soon as as the sun popped over the ridge.......the other array I turned to "noon" position, so the first sun would be hitting it at a sharp angle ( like 40-50 degrees ) off to the morning side....the position most roof mount arrays would be in...it generated only 430 watts. So the tracking array was doing almost 50% more at that point....that of course, will fall off ( versus fixed mounting ) as the sun continues to noon, then increase again as the sun sets OVER a fixed mount....giving probably around a 30% increase for the day total KwHrs. The most I've seen out of my panels is slightly under 1000watts per array....which considering the winter tilt, sounds about right.....they should produce their rated max (1050w) at at the spring equinox, then fall off again toward summer solstice....but the KwHrs should increase as the day gets longer as well up to the first day of summer. The charge controllers ( Outback MX60 and FM60 ) will each handle 1600 watts @24v, and my inverters will handle 5000watts total, so I'm considering adding 3 more panels to each array ( 175w each ) that would get me up close to the charger max, since I'm not using them to full capacity. My cost would be panels only, plug them in and go....that would raise my system total to 3000w. Probably do that in the spring. Our house location is tucked in against the south eastern slope of a 3,000' mountain ( top about 800' above the house ) and the worst wind comes from the west/northwest. I can hear it howling on the top of the mountain, and all we get is a gentle breeze....which is why our location sucks for wind power......the wind site is 800' vertical and over 2,000' upslope feet from the house....to far to run DC power, and most AC unless stepped up or REALLY heavy, expensive cable. Occasionally, we get a wind from the east/south, but it isn't much. And I built the racks pretty heavy ( ask Rich G....he helped me get them in place along with my backhoe on a tractor ), so bottom line, wind isn't going to be an issue. Hail may or may not be. The glass on the panels is tempered, and we rarely get much hail here, so I plan to simply go with that....they LOOK like they would take quite a hit and not damage...but I haven't applied a hammer to them....

Tn...Andy | 01-16-2009 10:15 AM
Re: and now they pay me...... Update: 4 weeks today that the solar has been hooked up to the grid. We used 886Kw/hrs on the "buy" meter, and generated 208Kw/hrs on the "sell" meter.....but it was a REALLY crappy solar month with more than 50% of the time rain/snow/overcast. Since we get almost 3:1 credit for the 208, I'm figuring our bill will be for about 350-400kw/hrs, or less than half the normal 90 bucks. Also, both of my tracker control boards died....I am less than impressed with them. Guy that built them ( Ken Robart TheAnalogguy.com ) said it might have been my linear actuators bottomed out on the limit switches and caused an overamp to the board....but he wasn't sure......so I'm gonna modify them to run the board output thru a DPDT 24v relay so the relay contacts connect to the actuator, not the board directly. Today, it was 7 degrees here locally, and the grid power went out at 8am.....I flipped the transfer switch over in the garage, and life went right on. Greenhouse where I have the solar gear, I set a small propane heater to 'pilot' last night since I knew it was going to get so cold, wife has some of her houseplants in there, and it was a toasty 72 degrees this morning before dawn when I went up to read the meters. This was the first night I'd used any auxiliary heat, it hadn't gotten below 40 with nights dipping into the 20's, but I thought it would get too low last night with single digits. Going to require VERY little heat to keep it nice in there.

nub | 01-16-2009 10:44 AM
Re: and now they pay me...... Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor (Post 1504091) That single axis tracker that re-sets nightly is one sweet idea. Great call installing that. The efficiency boost from that instead of fixed panels will probably put you over the top in terms of offseting your whole electric bill. I too would be interested in hearing about your hail/high wind damage prep for the panels. Some type of covering possibly? Really sharp set up Andy. This is supper good info.
Yeah I know it's a sweat idea.....but !......they usually wind up being problematic which is why most people spend the money on extra panels.I've been fighting the idea of tracker versus stationary for years and every time I run across a tracked system it's broke or doesn't track properly in foggy or cloudy conditions(passive trackers)..... motor driven have gear problems. The motor driven WattSun tracker showed a lot of potential but it never really took of.....I may wind up with a Zomeworks passive tracker, foggy and cloudy days are not much of a consideration here. It bugs me knowing how much more energy can be produced with a tracked system....as long as they are cost effective. Only way to learn is to try.....good for you Andy!

Tn...Andy | 01-16-2009 11:56 AM
Re: and now they pay me...... Well, the racks themselves were simple to build....RichG and I welded them up in my shop and installed on the poles. What I think I need is simply a timer circuit rather than trying something that "looks" for the sun.....seems to me that a timer that sent power to the actuator motors every few minutes, then had a photo cell in it to send reverse current to park it back to the east would work about as well as a complicated sensor circuit. Any electronics guys out there in GIM land know how to build such a board ? Here is another tracker controller I may give a try: http://www.redrok.com/led3xassm.htm#led3xforsale

Zusn | 01-16-2009 03:05 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Quote:
Originally Posted by nub (Post 1514811) Yeah I know it's a sweat idea.....but !......they usually wind up being problematic which is why most people spend the money on extra panels.I've been fighting the idea of tracker versus stationary for years and every time I run across a tracked system it's broke or doesn't track properly in foggy or cloudy conditions(passive trackers)..... motor driven have gear problems. The motor driven WattSun tracker showed a lot of potential but it never really took of.....I may wind up with a Zomeworks passive tracker, foggy and cloudy days are not much of a consideration here. It bugs me knowing how much more energy can be produced with a tracked system....as long as they are cost effective. Only way to learn is to try.....good for you Andy!
I talked to a guy I know who manages a 100+kW solar array. My first question was if he used trackers. He said no. The "gain" you get from tracking is lost in the tracking equipment. The problems, as nub mentions above, puts it over the top for not being worth it.

Ralleia | 01-16-2009 03:16 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... What do y'all think are the odds that "Mr. Green Energy" President-Elect will provide further tax incentives for the installation of solar? I'm Jones'in for a solar power system for the house, and since we'd probably mount it on the roof I'd like to replace our somewhat beaten-up roof and put a steel lifetime roof on in its place. The panels can be adhered to the roof. Here's a project going up being conducted by my school--purportedly a zero-energy house. http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_pag...u_sid=10525579 Interesting reading there.

Zusn | 01-16-2009 05:41 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralleia (Post 1515136) What do y'all think are the odds that "Mr. Green Energy" President-Elect will provide further tax incentives for the installation of solar?
Maybe at first. The whole circular event will continue. 1. People conserve energy, tax and utility revenues drop 2. Utility raises rates to cover drop in income 3. People's bills go higher, so they find ways to conserve energy. Solar, wind and off grid living will eventually be seen as a threat. How does the government tax the energy you make with your panels and windmills? They can't allow that!

Goldhedge | 01-16-2009 06:58 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... Quote:
Originally Posted by Tn...Andy (Post 1514915) Any electronics guys out there in GIM land know how to build such a board ? Here is another tracker controller I may give a try: http://www.redrok.com/led3xassm.htm#led3xforsale
Andy, as cheap as this tracker controller is, @$40, I'd just buy it. It would be way more expensive to start designing one from scratch. If it works, it's a good solution. I noticed they have several 'designs' at that site. Not sure which one is the best. Why not ask the guy who runs the site? Tell him what you got.

platinumdude | 01-16-2009 08:18 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... So if your connected to the grid, aren't you more susceptible to an EMP attack?

steel_ag | 01-17-2009 05:35 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... You Tube
You Tube

steel_ag | 01-18-2009 07:34 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... maybe these sites can be of use... http://www.acrosolarlasers.com/diysolar.html http://www.redrok.com/electron.htm#led3x :dontknow:

Jimfrancisco | 01-22-2009 08:33 PM
Re: and now they pay me...... IMO solar panels are a great idea if you want to live off-grid - otherwise no. 7 Years ago the panel makers were claiming they would be able to compete with grid power in price within 7 years. Now they still say that in 7 years they will be able to compete. Great for topping up batteries but unless you have a tiny power requirement, the cost far outweighs the payback period by about 4 times.

Tn...Andy | 01-23-2009 06:25 AM
Re: and now they pay me...... I would pretty much agree with that assessment, and IF I was doing this only for the 'payback', I wouldn't have done it. But that isn't why I did it. I did it as part of a program of preps designed to get my place ready for a SHTF situation. It's just nice to finally have one prep that actually returns part of it's cost. The tax credits and local utility incentives DO make it cost effective in some locations...you have to look at each location to decide.....for example, I understand in parts of New Jersey, you can get up to 75 cents/kwhr for your solar production.....THAT would be talking real money in payback......combine that with conservation, and I could see those folks getting a check every month.

Jimfrancisco | 01-23-2009 07:27 AM
Re: and now they pay me...... That would be very nice indeed - that's 5 times the price i PAY for my electricity!

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