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longjohnsilver | 01-22-2007 05:30 PM
Gun recommendation Can someone recommend a rifle for use on a cruising sailboat that can: - be accurate for long range suppression - repel and discourage approaching vessels - uses rounds that are available all over the world - can be broken down into several pieces to be hidden in sneaky "dead" spaces on the boat, so as to escape detection during customs inspections. - will be somewhat easy to clean and maintain - can shoot at least 15 rounds on one load/magazine -------------- we already have a pistol grip pump action 12 guage for close in action, but would like to think about having something with some stand off power. Thanks,

gunner | 01-22-2007 05:35 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Barrett 82A1 http://nas4.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/06...x591527752.jpg will keep a 1/2 mile buffer zone between you and the bad guys http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=64429894

longjohnsilver | 01-22-2007 05:40 PM
Re: Gun recommendation YEAHH!!! Is that the one I saw on Future Weapons. Talk about Water World!!! I could hold pop Dennis Hopper off of a jet ski from 1/2 mile.:eek:

gunner | 01-22-2007 05:45 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Glad you liked :coolbeer: Going with something a little more portable - either an FAL or an M1A in .308 cal. Both are pretty reliable, plenty of ammo available and provide decent range and rapid, semi auto fire. There's also a good deal of custom ammo out there for different applications - get it while you can !! Hitlery in 08 will close that window permanently.

Tn...Andy | 01-22-2007 06:14 PM
Re: Gun recommendation The Barrett is actually an excellent choice. One of the few places you could actually take advantage of the range of a 50cal. I'd actually want both.....the 50 for 1/4-1 mile encounters, and a .308 for closer in encounters. You'd definitely give the Pirates of the Carribean something to consider......like finding an easier target.

Au_Ag | 01-22-2007 06:32 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by gunner (Post 482955) - either an FAL or an M1A in .308 cal. Bith are pretty reliable, plenty of ammo available and provide decent range and rapid, semi auto fire.......
Good advice, IMHO

mtnman | 01-22-2007 06:41 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by Tn...Andy (Post 482982) The Barrett is actually an excellent choice. One of the few places you could actually take advantage of the range of a 50cal. I'd actually want both.....the 50 for 1/4-1 mile encounters, and a .308 for closer in encounters. You'd definitely give the Pirates of the Carribean something to consider......like finding an easier target.
I have a friend that runs cargo in an 80� Motorsailer in the Caribbean. He tells me it�s not uncommon to run into very well armed "Pirates". Walter keeps a "Ma Deuce" (.50 cal. belt fed machine gun) mounted on the deck when in international waters.

eat_beef | 01-23-2007 11:28 AM
Re: Gun recommendation I really don't think you'd be able to "snipe" anything at a distance while on a small boat. Of course, if it's a large vessel coming at you, a 50 through the hull would sure get their attention! I think the M14/M1a platform would be the best. You can get a ship mount for one for something like 1500 bucks, but that wouldn't be very concealable. The rifle breaks out of it's stock VERY easily, without tools, which shortens it's length by more than a foot. It also has 20 round mags, and the 308 firepower is certainly the best for long range/ vs. another vessel among common military rifle calibers.

____hoot____ | 01-23-2007 11:56 AM
Re: Gun recommendation Think I would go at this a little differently. Remington 740-760 series: 308 or 30-06 common ammo, butt stock can be easily removed to shorten it, cheap 10 round magazines available, sporting rifle"wiggle room" if customs did find it, half or less the price of western made evil "black guns", Stone reliability in the 760, OK in the 740 series, you could buy a dozen for the price of one 50 caliber. In the real world shooting at running deer I think that my brother with his 760 pump was faster than I was with my semi-auto 742. Think about a 760 pump in 308 or 30-06, it would be the same action as your 12 guage and an easy learner for inexperienced shooters.

silverghost | 01-23-2007 02:49 PM
Re: Gun recommendation On a sailboat, would recommend a Ruger 10/22. Ammo is plentiful, has sufficient range, you can get quite a few rounds off in a hurry, etc...would deter all but the most fearless. Consider the most likely scenarios and I think you'll find that in actuality, an approaching craft would not make it's intent known until it was at relatively close range....maybe 75m or so. If it were me, I'd steer clear of a large caliber bolt action...it's a robust action that requires little maint, but doesnt necessarily offer the advantages you would want in situation like that. The 12 g is a good all-around choice, too.

Anty Ep | 01-23-2007 03:14 PM
Re: Gun recommendation if you are really going round the world, why not go to the trouble of checking the laws first? maybe that would be wise so you dont have a problem. lots of commercial vessels stock guns to repel pirates. esp in Indian ocean where it's a big problem now, also consider that the more "military" a rifle in most places, the more likely it is to be confiscated. hence, you might wish to consider a sporting round besides 308. for example in Europe they use 7mm-08 in place of the usual 308, because civilians aint sposed to have that apparently, or so I've heard.

917601 | 01-23-2007 03:46 PM
Re: Gun recommendation See the recent post on the Makarov.The GAU would be perfect-however the ammo is heavy and MUST be high quality to feed correctly.No reloads.My second preferred weapon used at work is this one, just what a naval ship needs, for best effect APIT rounds do wonders. " be accurate for long range suppression - repel and discourage approaching vessels ( as far as you can see) - uses rounds that are available all over the world(.50 BMG universal) - can be broken down into several pieces to be hidden in sneaky "dead" spaces on the boat, so as to escape detection during customs inspections.(can be broken down and disguised as a mast assy....) - will be somewhat easy to clean and maintain(problem-takes two to break down,set headspace etc) - can shoot at least 15 rounds on one load/magazine"(limited to belt length)

917601 | 01-23-2007 03:52 PM
Re: Gun recommendation 1 Attachment(s) Pic did not post.(Just saw size limitation)

longjohnsilver | 01-23-2007 04:05 PM
Re: Gun recommendation [QUOTE=Anty Ep;483993]if you are really going round the world, why not go to the trouble of checking the laws first? maybe that would be wise so you dont have a problem. QUOTE] Already know the laws, and they're not friendly. In most places, you must declare and either give it up for your visit (must return to check in location to retrieve before leaving the country) or must lock in approved gun safe which is then sealed by authorities, not to be opened until you check out of the country (better option, cause if we need it, you can guarantee that seal will be broken). If you don't declare, and are caught - you will most likely be seeing some 3rd world jail time. Not pretty. But neither is watching your wife and daughter be raped by 8 men in front of your eyes. (Happened to a guy last year). Most of the Caribbean is safe, and the problem areas are well known, but in the out of the way places, away from effective government control, you don't want to stumble across drug runners or the like. I'm good enough working with fiberglass, etc... to effectively create spaces that will conceal the weapons (until they start tearing the boat apart, which at that point, we have multiple problems anyway) - so, I'm willing to take the risk in order to have a real option for protection. Thanks for all the input - it has opened up many avenues of research. As they say in the boating world, Keep the shiny side up! :coolbeer: Thanks,

917601 | 01-23-2007 04:55 PM
Re: Gun recommendation 1 Attachment(s) Just learning photo editing-I have many pics but certain "parts" need editing.For the Browning man-a close up.

____hoot____ | 01-23-2007 05:59 PM
Re: Gun recommendation P.S. Remington is now makeing the 760 style pump gun in 223 and it takes AR style 30 round magazines! I saw a picture of one a couple of weeks ago. It may be for law enforcement only.

mtnman | 01-23-2007 06:38 PM
Re: Gun recommendation [quote=longjohnsilver;484076] Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 483993) if you are really going round the world, why not go to the trouble of checking the laws first? maybe that would be wise so you dont have a problem. QUOTE] Already know the laws, and they're not friendly. In most places, you must declare and either give it up for your visit (must return to check in location to retrieve before leaving the country) or must lock in approved gun safe which is then sealed by authorities, not to be opened until you check out of the country (better option, cause if we need it, you can guarantee that seal will be broken). If you don't declare, and are caught - you will most likely be seeing some 3rd world jail time. Not pretty. But neither is watching your wife and daughter be raped by 8 men in front of your eyes. (Happened to a guy last year). Most of the Caribbean is safe, and the problem areas are well known, but in the out of the way places, away from effective government control, you don't want to stumble across drug runners or the like. I'm good enough working with fiberglass, etc... to effectively create spaces that will conceal the weapons (until they start tearing the boat apart, which at that point, we have multiple problems anyway) - so, I'm willing to take the risk in order to have a real option for protection. Thanks for all the input - it has opened up many avenues of research. As they say in the boating world, Keep the shiny side up! :coolbeer: Thanks,
Why not just install the "approved gun safe". The customs seal is no more than a paper tape. Easily broken in an emergency (better be life or death or your going to a foreign prison). I worked on ships for 20 years. I�ve seen customs approved safes on ships and they are no more than unmovable secure lockable steel cabinets.

longjohnsilver | 01-23-2007 06:49 PM
Re: Gun recommendation [QUOTE=mtnman;484253] Quote:
Originally Posted by longjohnsilver (Post 484076) Why not just install the "approved gun safe". The customs seal is no more than a paper tape. Easily broken in an emergency (better be life or death or your going to a foreign prison). I worked on ships for 20 years. I�ve seen customs approved safes on ships and they are no more than unmovable secure lockable steel cabinets.
Yep, that's most likely what will happen MtnMan. Will have to be creative though to get one in that's big enough for rifle/shotgun size as my boat isn't huge. plus, gotta save those "dead spaces" hiding places for my PMs,:coolbeer: Later,

Walter Mitty | 01-23-2007 07:07 PM
Re: Gun recommendation I think I would opt for a AK. It is the most prolific assault rifle around the world. Ammo and mags would be available practically anywhere. I would also get an M1 (Garand) rifle from the CMP. Find some AP bullets and reload some AP ammo. Use the AK up close and the M1 at longer ranges with the AP. I would use one of those seal a meal deals and dbl pack them with some dessicant pks and oxygen absorbers to protect them from the Salt air. Just my .02.

Jack London | 01-23-2007 07:15 PM
Re: Gun recommendation You would most likely get little warning from a bad guy on the high seas. They are not roaming around in deep water looking for sailboats, but rather waiting in a cove on the back side of an island and watching for someone sailing around the point. You will have running lights to avoid collision - they will not. Your hull is probably white - their's is black. You look toward the shore and see the black of an island at night - they see your silhouette against the night sky. Today's pirates are much like the pirates of yesteryear in this sense. They hide in places where the waterway bottlenecks. In the Caribbean the same as Malacca, the same as the Bunda Sea, etc. (I trained pirate defense on Merchant Ships.) I would focus on firepower. Something you can crack off 15 - 20 rounds in a few seconds. Full auto would be good. It doesn't need to be a large caliber. A lot of bullets dancing across the water and tearing into a hull would be a good deterent. You could store more ammo with a small caliber as well. A .22 will kill too. If you get into a firefight you will need to put lead into the air. Be careful. As times get worse the piracy will go up.

Anty Ep | 01-24-2007 09:42 AM
hail Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 484253) Why not just install the "approved gun safe". The customs seal is no more than a paper tape. Easily broken in an emergency (better be life or death or your going to a foreign prison). I worked on ships for 20 years. I’ve seen customs approved safes on ships and they are no more than unmovable secure lockable steel cabinets.
Voila, a sailor speaks! :applause_ Here is an example Quote:
http://grenada-guide.info/travel.basics/customs/ Firearms and ammunition are also prohibited for importation, and boats with firearms should notify customs officials upon arrival. Weapons will be held onshore until departure or may be put in a safety locker on board the boat.

eat_beef | 01-24-2007 10:07 AM
Re: Gun recommendation [quote=Jack London;484294]If you get into a firefight you will need to put lead into the air.quote] You can't miss fast enough to win.:thumpdown

Anty Ep | 01-24-2007 10:10 AM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by longjohnsilver (Post 484262) gotta save those "dead spaces" hiding places for my PMs,:coolbeer: Later,
Customs guys are constantly searching the same kinds of boats day in and day out for drugs. They know on most all types of vessels where the hidey-holes are. If they bother to search a boat for contraband, they WILL find it. There is little sense in trying to hide guns on a boat, just figure out how to secure them legally so you can have them, have them READY if you need them not squirreled away behind some fixed bulkhead or whatnot, and not worry in the meantime.

R MacDonald | 01-24-2007 12:24 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 484902) Customs guys are constantly searching the same kinds of boats day in and day out for drugs. They know on most all types of vessels where the hidey-holes are. If they bother to search a boat for contraband, they WILL find it. There is little sense in trying to hide guns on a boat, just figure out how to secure them legally so you can have them, have them READY if you need them not squirreled away behind some fixed bulkhead or whatnot, and not worry in the meantime.
I had a friend that once machined a breech loaded barrel insert for a flare gun that accepted regular .38 ammo. Nifty... and he could hide it in plain sight in a toolbox. It looked almost like a deep socket at a distance.

Anty Ep | 01-24-2007 12:34 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by R MacDonald (Post 485054) I had a friend that once machined a breech loaded barrel insert for a flare gun that accepted regular .38 ammo. Nifty... and he could hide it in plain sight in a toolbox. It looked almost like a deep socket at a distance.
hey that is a good product idea. that would not be a firearm acc to regs, would it?

longjohnsilver | 01-24-2007 12:40 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by R MacDonald (Post 485054) I had a friend that once machined a breech loaded barrel insert for a flare gun that accepted regular .38 ammo. Nifty... and he could hide it in plain sight in a toolbox. It looked almost like a deep socket at a distance.
This is definitely a good idea, and has been commercialized already by a small operation. Advertised in boating magazines. Something like $75 per cartridge. Here, found the link, http://www.captainforhire.com/products.htm would go very well with an H&K flare gun: http://www.keepshooting.com/military...-flare-gun.htm ok stuff - legal - and ok i guess for close in defense. Love the red pepper rounds!!

R MacDonald | 01-24-2007 01:32 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 485072) hey that is a good product idea. that would not be a firearm acc to regs, would it?
Looks like it's already been done... http://goldismoney.info/forums/showt...078#post485078 :beer:

____hoot____ | 01-24-2007 08:10 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Have a couple of those inserts laying around, a 44 magnum in 12 guage, and a 357 magnum in 20 guage; no longer than a shotgun shell, made of aluminum they do look like long sockets. You could machine one easily for a good strong steel flare gun. Or heck. cast it out of lead or epoxy if you were sure of the strength of your flare gun. Though I wouldn't think a bad guy would be anymore afraid of one of those pointed at him than he would be of a loaded flare gun pointed at him. Hollowed "reconstructed" batteries are a good "safer" spot for heavy objects. And the lead of keels can be easily drilled and then sealed with molten lead.

mtnman | 01-24-2007 11:52 PM
Re: hail Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 484871) Voila, a sailor speaks! :applause_ Here is an example
Whoa!!! I�m no sailor!!!, just a shipyard rat. I was ship repair for 20 years, Machinist first class. I repaired engines (Fuel and steam turbine) electric motors, deck wenches, rudder, steering gear, tail shafts, wheel, and any valve that opened to seawater. I know ships top to bottom. There�s not enough FRN�s in the world to get me out to sea in one of those rust buckets. Sharks eat people.

Anty Ep | 01-25-2007 10:51 AM
Re: hail Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 485855) Whoa!!! I�m no sailor!!!, just a shipyard rat. I was ship repair for 20 years, Machinist first class. I repaired engines (Fuel and steam turbine) electric motors, deck wenches, rudder, steering gear, tail shafts, wheel, and any valve that opened to seawater. I know ships top to bottom. There�s not enough FRN�s in the world to get me out to sea in one of those rust buckets. Sharks eat people.
Fascinating job you describe. Did you work in a shipyard out east? I sense that you have many interesting anecdotes which you could share.

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mtnman | 01-26-2007 01:35 AM
Re: hail Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 486313) Fascinating job you describe. Did you work in a shipyard out east? I sense that you have many interesting anecdotes which you could share.
Tampa ShipYards, Tampa Florida. I�ve built a few ships and repaired hundreds of others. Yes, I have many stories about that place! As time goes on and opportunities present themselves, you will read them here.

90%RealMoney | 01-28-2007 01:01 PM
Re: Gun recommendation I have a gun value question, for any of the experts on the forum. What is an original Colt AR-15 worth? This rifle has an original Colt scope on it, is around 25 years old, and looks almost brand new. Supposedly, it has barely been fired, maybe only 500 rounds through it. The owner says that it has been in his gun safe since purchased new. The outside appearance of the rifle looks to be 95%, or better. Just curious what it is worth. Thanks for any help!

wallew | 01-28-2007 02:56 PM
Re: Gun recommendation 90%RM, Your Colt AR-15 is worth approximately $1000 - give or take 10% depending upon condition and actual model. The Colt scope (3x or 4x) is worth approximately $250, again give or take 10%. This comes from my 1999 Blue Book of Gun Values. Guns don't appreciate or depreciate a whole lot, but I hedged with the +/- 10%. Now on to the marine security question. Consider one or two AK's. AND one or two SKS's. You will want something that shoots out to 200 yards accurately, yet is fairly easy to wield in tight and easy to control. Consider an AMD65. A buddy of mine carried one in 'the Stan' for a year and swears by them. http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...5&d=1140539110 Having one or two SKS's that you can 'surrender' in port to the authorities explains the 7.62 x39 ammo you have on board. And the SKS's have internal magazines and are actually fine rifles that shoot fairly flat out to about 200 yards. And they cost around $150. Which you wouldn't mind losing to the 'port authority' for whatever reason. Keep in mind that you can keep all the cleaning equipment out, but would need to hide the magazines as well the rifles themselves. And you can find 7.62x39 all over the world.

Masonic Plot | 01-28-2007 03:06 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Id like to review a little here since I am still learning about semi auto rifles. If one wanted one semi auto rifle for a SHTF situation, something light and compact, DURABLE and DEPENDABLE, something you can easily get ammo for, something with a price of around 800 dollars, something that would provide accurate shots up to 100 yards. What would one want to look for? One other question. When clinton banned Assult Weapons, was that just for SALES or did people who HAD THEM AT THE TIME also have to get rid of them?? If there is another ban, will owning one that you bought when they were LEGAL be considered illegal. or do they just ban future sales of them??

skids927 | 01-28-2007 03:38 PM
Re: Gun recommendation A good gun would be an AR-15, which are reliable and very accurate, up to 500 yards. A good brand that is affodable is Bushmaster, their site is www.bushmaster.com, and it will be under XM15 rifles. When they banned assault weapons, they prevented people from purchasing them anymore, and also had restrictions on the magazine size of all pistols. If you had already purchased them, you were able to keep it. This is why it is important to purchase firearms now to be able to have them when they ban them. I would think that a pre-ban Armalite AR-15 would be worth more than $1000, since they are able to be configured in full automatic.

Tn...Andy | 01-28-2007 03:43 PM
Re: Gun recommendation It was for sales......actually, it was just for sales IF they contained a certain number of features, like a pistol grip, bayonet lug, flash suppressor, etc....post ban weapons could have some but not all of the features of pre-ban....it was just govt nonsense. ( This was the Federal ban, not States like CA ) As to future ban, heck, who knows.

Tn...Andy | 01-28-2007 03:51 PM
Re: Gun recommendation I have ARs, AKs, and an SKS. Personally, I like the ARs. I know they are often poo-pha'ed as too light weight a cartridge, but I like them. Light, accurate, reliable as long as you do a minimum of cleaning. I have one now I've run thousands of rounds (without cleaning) thru waiting on it to jam or fail.....so far it hasn't. Accurate as skidds says....basically, if you can SEE it at 400yds, you can hit it. A man sized shiloutte at 400yds isn't at big as looking at your thumb holding your arm outstretched.

wallew | 01-28-2007 03:54 PM
Re: Gun recommendation It depends on where you lived. For the 'Clinton' ban, it was for future sales. If you live in California, New York or other east coast cities, the weapons are banned. That means you either register them and/or turn them in. In most cases, you just registered the weapon and you could keep it until what ever PTB decides it's time to turn them in. Then you either hid them and hoped that they were never discovered, because if they were you had a passel full of troubles. Or just turn them and lose your investment. If you don't mind a US military weapon, the CMP is about to release a whole lot of M1 .30 carbines in the coming months. Which should drop the price for all M1 Carbines down to around $300 - $400 each. Great weapons out to about 100 - 150 yards. And with todays current ammuntion, they are an excellent choice. Plus magazine are abundant and CHEAP. Ammo is basically no more than 7.62 x 39 by the case. And it's a piece of American history.

Masonic Plot | 01-28-2007 03:55 PM
Re: Gun recommendation That BUSHMASTER site says a FED FIREARM LICENSE is required to purchase a rifle. What is that about. I am not familiar with the assult weapons laws anymore. Do they require some sort of paperwork. Phone call etc. I know here in arizona its a 3 minute process to handgun, real simple. You guys are great. I appreciate all the comments. OK so if i walk into the gun shop to buy an AR what do I ask for and what should I plan on spending new/used?

90%RealMoney | 01-28-2007 04:07 PM
Re: Gun recommendation #34 1 Hour Ago wallew Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Denver, Co North America USA Planet Earth Posts: 911 Re: Gun recommendation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 90%RM, Your Colt AR-15 is worth approximately $1000 - give or take 10% depending upon condition and actual model. The Colt scope (3x or 4x) is worth approximately $250, again give or take 10%. This comes from my 1999 Blue Book of Gun Values. Guns don't appreciate or depreciate a whole lot, but I hedged with the +/- 10%. Thanks for the info Wallew. Yeah, I saw a similar Colt scope go for around $200.00 on Ebay.

R MacDonald | 01-28-2007 04:23 PM
Re: Gun recommendation http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS...McCain_pic.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...achine_gun.jpg

mkinla | 01-28-2007 05:05 PM
Re: Gun recommendation I've got an AR with an red dot eotech for close range and and Brazil FAL AKA Imbel. I think it all depends on what you want to. The FAL with the .308 will reach 1,000 yards, but that depends upon how good your glass is and what kind of ammo you've got, and that goes for the AR-15 also. I think the weapon for me is going to be the AR-10. It shoots a .308 and is light weight, but it can be pricey. Do a search on Noveske rifles....

mtnman | 01-28-2007 07:07 PM
Re: Gun recommendation [quote=Masonic Plot;489675]Id like to review a little here since I am still learning about semi auto rifles. If one wanted one semi auto rifle for a SHTF situation, something light and compact, DURABLE and DEPENDABLE, something you can easily get ammo for, something with a price of around 800 dollars, something that would provide accurate shots up to 100 yards. What would one want to look for? quote] For $800 you can get a Quality AK-47 (Vector arms) and several thousand rounds of 7.62x39 (Sportsman's Guide). Accurate enough at 200 yards to kill a man with one shot. Throw it in a mud puddle, stomp it down into the mud pull it out sling the water out of the barrel work the action and fire away. Fire 2000 rounds, with out cleaning the gun, then throw it out in the back yard for a couple of weeks. Load it up and shoot some more. The most dependable in all conditions rifle ever made.

Masonic Plot | 01-28-2007 11:03 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Thats what I wanted to know my friend. Ak47 made by VECTOR ARMS

mtnman | 01-29-2007 01:26 AM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by Masonic Plot (Post 490248) Thats what I wanted to know my friend. Ak47 made by VECTOR ARMS
They have a web site http://www.vectorarms.com/indexframe.html Click on AK47 rifles and scroll down. I recomend the fixed stock, built from polish parts, $499 plus shipping. THe milled receivers are over rated, the folded sheet metal recievers are the way they were always built untill some american gun makers started playing with them. You should be able to find a dealer close to you that will handle the sale.

Anty Ep | 01-29-2007 09:04 AM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by 90%RealMoney (Post 489746) #34 1 Hour Ago wallew Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Denver, Co North America USA Planet Earth Posts: 911 Re: Gun recommendation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 90%RM, Your Colt AR-15 is worth approximately $1000 - give or take 10% depending upon condition and actual model. The Colt scope (3x or 4x) is worth approximately $250, again give or take 10%. This comes from my 1999 Blue Book of Gun Values. Guns don't appreciate or depreciate a whole lot, but I hedged with the +/- 10%. Thanks for the info Wallew. Yeah, I saw a similar Colt scope go for around $200.00 on Ebay.
Blue book prices are like the PCGS prices-- or what I am told about the PCGS prices; that they are high. As in, try and actually get somebody to pay that much-- not easy. Ten years ago when I used to be in this market a lot everybbody thought they could get 1000 for a used AR but usually could only get 700 or 800 if it was nice.

Anty Ep | 01-29-2007 09:06 AM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 490338) They have a web site http://www.vectorarms.com/indexframe.html Click on AK47 rifles and scroll down. I recomend the fixed stock, built from polish parts, $499 plus shipping. THe milled receivers are over rated, the folded sheet metal recievers are the way they were always built untill some american gun makers started playing with them. You should be able to find a dealer close to you that will handle the sale.
More good thoughts-- stamped receivers are fine, milled are overrated-- absolutely right-- also, get a fixed stock. Folding stocks are for tanks. If you aint gonna be in a tank, dont handicap yourself. You want a nice easily acquired "cheek weld" for accuracy.

mkinla | 01-29-2007 11:30 AM
Re: Gun recommendation Here's my California LEGAL FAL........:applause_ http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2...jan20077of.jpg

Masonic Plot | 01-29-2007 11:51 AM
Re: Gun recommendation Hey MTNMAN thanks for the help, I do appreciate the advice and I think it is sound solid advice. I realize it is a simple matter of preference but what do you think is more sturdy in that AK you suggested, the WOOD STOCK or that black stuff. Whats more durable for the long haul and less likely to get damaged?

Masonic Plot | 01-29-2007 02:44 PM
Re: Gun recommendation I have an m1 30 carbine that my gramps gave to me, cherry condition, bayonet, the whole 9 yards. Is this thing any good as far as a tactical weapon in a RED DAWN type of situation. How far out is it useful if youre a decent shot??

Abouthadit | 01-29-2007 02:52 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by Masonic Plot (Post 490979) I have an m1 30 carbine that my gramps gave to me, cherry condition, bayonet, the whole 9 yards. Is this thing any good as far as a tactical weapon in a RED DAWN type of situation. How far out is it useful if youre a decent shot??
Seems like I recall that the M1 carbine was issued originally to non-combat troops as a lightweight portable extension to side arms, but the Marines appropriated it for it's larger magazine and light weight over the M1 Garand. It was never intended to be a main combat rifle. Ammo would not be very easy to come by in a SHTF scenario. Better to keep it as a war relic and memento of your Gramps, and go get yourself an AK, HK, AR, or FAL. My 2c.

Masonic Plot | 01-29-2007 03:18 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Yea that is about what I am thinking too. Probably go with a ak47 as MTNMAN suggests. Good price on those.

RR_58 | 01-29-2007 03:28 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by Masonic Plot (Post 490979) I have an m1 30 carbine that my gramps gave to me, cherry condition, bayonet, the whole 9 yards. Is this thing any good as far as a tactical weapon in a RED DAWN type of situation. How far out is it useful if youre a decent shot??
The M1 Carbine is ok...It was used by more than non-combat troops.I was in the infantry(1958-1962) and our officers carried them. It is not a long range rifle but at 100 yards I would not want to get hit by one.Some people claim that in Korea the Chinese quilted jackets stopped the bullets,that has been proven false.Not the stopper that the "06" and .308 are but I would not reject it...good for home defence.

REV127 | 01-29-2007 04:24 PM
Re: Gun recommendation That would be pretty weird if the M1 Carbine was stopped by a quilted jacket considering that the 7.62x25, probably among other reasons, was developed to penetrate the heavy wool greatcoat that actually afforded some protection against the slow, large caliber bullets of its day. The M1 fires a very high velocity .30cal bullet similar to the 7.62x25 but with even more power. Penetration is very good, it's a credible threat even to kevlar vests. The M1 Carbine is a good gun that fires a neat round. Pair it up with a Ruger Blackhawk revolver in .30cal and you'd have a lightweight combo of pistol and carbine that fire the same ammunition, can defeat light armor or cover and will keep their heads down from well over 100 yards away. I don't worry about the whole common calibers argument anymore. The only ammo you can count on is the ammo you own and if you can capture enemy ammo you most likely have captured the weapon that fires it, too. When it comes to trading you may or may not find any ammo in your oddball caliber, but if you do you'll probably be the only one who wants or can use it. The real lesson is stock up on plenty of ammo for your guns while it's still cheap and easily available. The AK is on a whole nother level than the M1 though, it's considerably more powerful and robust. I'm lucky enough to be able to afford anything I want and this is what I choose for my area where visibility is only a couple hundred yards at most but cover, concealment mud and rain are common. I'd opt for the polymer stock over the wood from a purely functional perspective but even wood will give you a lot of good service.

mkinla | 01-29-2007 04:48 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by Masonic Plot (Post 491018) Yea that is about what I am thinking too. Probably go with a ak47 as MTNMAN suggests. Good price on those.
Keep in mind you get what you pay for. The AK47 is a spray and pray weapon in my opinion, and it's not that accurate... Sure you can take a dump in it and it'll fire, but for the SHTF scenarios, I'd rather have an accurate weapon. Just my .02 cents....

Anty Ep | 01-29-2007 05:03 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by mkinla (Post 491083) Keep in mind you get what you pay for. The AK47 is a spray and pray weapon in my opinion, and it's not that accurate... Sure you can take a dump in it and it'll fire, but for the SHTF scenarios, I'd rather have an accurate weapon. Just my .02 cents....
no, a mac 10 is a spray weapon. the ak is a rifle and it's plenty good for aimed fire on man-sized targets out to 400 yards -

RR_58 | 01-29-2007 05:39 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 491060) That would be pretty weird if the M1 Carbine was stopped by a quilted jacket considering that the 7.62x25, probably among other reasons, was developed to penetrate the heavy wool greatcoat that actually afforded some protection against the slow, large caliber bullets of its day. The M1 fires a very high velocity .30cal bullet similar to the 7.62x25 but with even more power. Penetration is very good, it's a credible threat even to kevlar vests. The M1 Carbine is a good gun that fires a neat round. Pair it up with a Ruger Blackhawk revolver in .30cal and you'd have a lightweight combo of pistol and carbine that fire the same ammunition, can defeat light armor or cover and will keep their heads down from well over 100 yards away. I don't worry about the whole common calibers argument anymore. The only ammo you can count on is the ammo you own and if you can capture enemy ammo you most likely have captured the weapon that fires it, too. When it comes to trading you may or may not find any ammo in your oddball caliber, but if you do you'll probably be the only one who wants or can use it. The real lesson is stock up on plenty of ammo for your guns while it's still cheap and easily available. The AK is on a whole nother level than the M1 though, it's considerably more powerful and robust. I'm lucky enough to be able to afford anything I want and this is what I choose for my area where visibility is only a couple hundred yards at most but cover, concealment mud and rain are common. I'd opt for the polymer stock over the wood from a purely functional perspective but even wood will give you a lot of good service.
Good post Rev127.I see you mentioned the 7.62x25...I just saw one picture where that round penetrated a kevlar helmet.

mtnman | 01-29-2007 05:58 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by Masonic Plot (Post 490781) Hey MTNMAN thanks for the help, I do appreciate the advice and I think it is sound solid advice. I realize it is a simple matter of preference but what do you think is more sturdy in that AK you suggested, the WOOD STOCK or that black stuff. Whats more durable for the long haul and less likely to get damaged?
Well if your going to use your rifle for a pry bar get the black stock LOL! The wood will last almost forever and is a lot cheaper. Nicks and dings in the stock create personality. I also like the look and feel of wood. Also when firing non-stop for several hundred rounds the wood stock smells better than the melting plastic!

mtnman | 01-29-2007 06:10 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by mkinla (Post 491083) Keep in mind you get what you pay for. The AK47 is a spray and pray weapon in my opinion, and it's not that accurate... Sure you can take a dump in it and it'll fire, but for the SHTF scenarios, I'd rather have an accurate weapon. Just my .02 cents....
Accuracy is 90% the shooter. Granted I have been shooting 100-200 rounds a week for 20+ years, but I can keep a 3" circle at 150 yards with my Norenco AK (good enough to kill with one shot). My Vetor AK keeps a 2" circle at the same distance. My M1 Garand holds a Dime size hole at 150 yards. 10/22 Ruger with a target barrel, trigger group and scope, all rounds through the same .22 cal hole. Practice is EVERYTHING!!!!!! The muzzleloader in my picture, Dead on at 100 yards.

mtnman | 01-29-2007 06:14 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by Masonic Plot (Post 490979) I have an m1 30 carbine that my gramps gave to me, cherry condition, bayonet, the whole 9 yards. Is this thing any good as far as a tactical weapon in a RED DAWN type of situation. How far out is it useful if youre a decent shot??
Because it was your Gramps, never sell but it could be very valuable. I have a Rock-Ola M1 Carbine. It is all original WW2. It has been appraised at $2000.

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Anty Ep | 01-29-2007 06:27 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 491210) Because it was your Gramps, never sell but it could be very valuable. I have a Rock-Ola M1 Carbine. It is all original WW2. It has been appraised at $2000.
And dont be stocking up on M2 parts either.

<SLV> | 01-29-2007 06:28 PM
Re: Gun recommendation OK... need some clarity here... are 7.62x39 and.308 the same thing? If not, which is better? Are both available in AK and AR guns? Thanks

REV127 | 01-29-2007 06:51 PM
Re: Gun recommendation 7.62x39 is it's own thing, a Soviet intermediate rifle cartridge. A purist would tell you 7.62x51 and .308 are not quite the same thing, but they'll chamber and fire in the same weapons. .308 can potentially be loaded hotter than 7.62x51, but if you look on the ammo box for the circle with crosshairs NATO symbol the .308 should be safe in anything. Which one of the two is better would depend on what you're trying to do. 7.62x39 does not shoot as flat, does not have as much power, costs less and is lighter than .308. If you have to make accurate shots at ranges over 300 yards then .308 is the way to go. If you want plenty of power to penetrate cover at closer ranges and don't want to carry unnecessary weight, 7.62x39 is a good option. 7.62x39 also has a fairly unusual ability that is probably derived from its relatively large caliber and relatively low velocity; you can pick your AK straight up out of the water after a total submersion and fire without your gun exploding. I don't reccomend you try it but you can likely find videos of people doing such on the net if you look hard enough. I wouldn't be brave enough to try this with something as fast as a .308 or 5.56. Both AK's and AR's can be had in a range of calibers. Give the Saiga line a look for alternate caliber AK's, they come with a comb stock from the factory but can be converted to a more normal pistol grip configuration. RAA is also advertising a "thumbhole" style stock that look like an easy way to get most of the functionality of a converted Saiga. http://www.raacfirearms.com/rifles.htm http://www.raacfirearms.com/shotguns.htm MTNMan is right about smoking wood and melting plastic, it can and does happen if you put enough rounds through your AK fast enough. Considering how easy it is to bumpfire an AK this might be a situation you find yourself in someday. I've been playing around with the idea of using one of the aluminum upper and lower hand guards with a polymer vertical foregrip. The aluminum won't melt or catch fire, and it won't hold heat very long after you stop firing. In the meantime the polymer foregrip is not an efficient conductor of heat into your hand.

<SLV> | 01-29-2007 06:56 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Thanks Rev! Exactly what I needed to know - very clear. SLV

Masonic Plot | 01-29-2007 09:12 PM
Re: Gun recommendation So if i buy an ak 47 I can run EITHER one of those rounds in it??

mkinla | 01-29-2007 10:57 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by Masonic Plot (Post 491411) So if i buy an ak 47 I can run EITHER one of those rounds in it??
NOOOOOOOOO, LMAO.... I was drunk one night and tried to shoot a .39 out of my FAL, and needless to say nothing happened. The .39 is smaller than the .51 AKA .308. The 7.62x.39 is cheaper than the .308 stuff which is nice. But like MM said it's all about practicing. Over time your muscles, your chin will automatically go to the same spot, and that really is what makes you a marksman. As an example, I played professional paintball for 12 years. I could be at a full sprint, see a body to my right, not have to aim and put 3 shots in the persons face, and that was all muscle memory and practice. Good luck brother....:coolbeer:

mtnman | 01-29-2007 10:58 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by Masonic Plot (Post 491411) So if i buy an ak 47 I can run EITHER one of those rounds in it??
AK-47 only uses the 7.62x39 nothing else.

wallew | 01-30-2007 12:17 AM
Re: Gun recommendation M1 Carbine - I have a US Army training film from 1944. They go over ALL the weapons 'you boys will use' in Germany. Covers the .45 acp. Then on to the M1 Carbine, then the M1 Garand. The M1 Carbine will penetrate light armor, like a steel helmet. Front to back, giving 'a headache he won't get over'. Then they fired the M1 Garand at the same target. BIG HOLES going in and coming out of the steel helmet. Range for both these demonstrations was 100 yards. Also, the M1 Garand was shown penetrating straight through a bucket of water that was behind a 12 inch diameter tree. The bucket was not only penetrated fully, but the second or third shot caused it to jump off the stand that it was placed on. Finally the AK47 (for Avtomat Kalashnikova model 1947) was designed by Mikhail Kalashnikov to loose tolerances so it COULD be all but run over by a tank and still function. LOTS OF SLOP built into the weapon, which is great for it's design purposes. MILLIONS have been made and shipped all over the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Kalashnikov I've got several examples. And don't let anyone tell you they are not accurate. THEY ARE. In the hands of a marksman. http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/prog...ew.asp?CatId=2 is where I got my AMD 65's. THEY COME with the forend grips already in place. Which makes weilding them in automobile's or OTHER tight spaces much easier. http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/prog...d.asp?Prodid=6 That should give you some idea of what to look at. And hang onto that M1 Carbine. It's definately a piece of American history that you can pass down to your kids.

Anty Ep | 01-30-2007 10:47 AM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 491546) AK-47 only uses the 7.62x39 nothing else.
of course there is the ak 74 in 545x 39 and the ak 101 in 556 x 45... a few other variants too... but those are not for civilian market

mtnman | 01-30-2007 12:06 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 491993) of course there is the ak 74 in 545x 39 and the ak 101 in 556 x 45... a few other variants too... but those are not for civilian market
I have an AK-74 in 5.45x39 I didn't mention it cause I didn't want to confuse anyone. I also see some one making a .308 but I don't have one...Yet.

wallew | 01-30-2007 04:25 PM
Re: Gun recommendation MM, Here ya go... http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/prog...asp?Prodid=362 http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/prog...asp?Prodid=363

mtnman | 01-30-2007 04:41 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 492396) MM, Here ya go... http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/prog...asp?Prodid=362 http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/prog...asp?Prodid=363
DROOL DROOL DROOL... But I just spent $10,000 on a new motorcycle, no way I can afford another $1000 for a new rifle at this time!

wallew | 01-30-2007 08:26 PM
Re: Gun recommendation MM, $10k for a motorcycle... DROOL, DROOL, DROOL... What kind of bike? A Harley by any chance? I'm an OLD Harley rider. Sold mine that I owned for fifteen years, a year or so ago to a good friend. Let me know.

REV127 | 01-30-2007 08:53 PM
Re: Gun recommendation That tromix side folder is hot!

wallew | 01-30-2007 09:03 PM
Re: Gun recommendation Yeah, they are both pretty nice. I've done business with Atlantic firearms before. Nothing but good work and a great owner that even followed up the sale to ask how I liked the weapons I purchased.

mtnman | 01-31-2007 01:05 AM
Re: Gun recommendation Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 492655) MM, $10k for a motorcycle... DROOL, DROOL, DROOL... What kind of bike? A Harley by any chance? I'm an OLD Harley rider. Sold mine that I owned for fifteen years, a year or so ago to a good friend. Let me know.
Well I�ve had Harleys all my life and right now I have four. But my new bike is not a Harley, I bought a Triumph Rocket 3. It�s a whole lota� motorcycle, 140 hp, 147 lbs torque. After I took the test ride last year my old Harley just wasn�t enough.

REV127 | 01-31-2007 01:15 AM
Re: Gun recommendation I was talking about the folding stock itself, but the tactical .308 is awfully sweet, too. I just wish I could get it in 7.62x54r. I've heard rumors about a Saiga in that caliber for at least a year, but that's all they've been. The nice thing about 7.62x54r is the ATF doesn't consider it to be pistol ammo so you've got a wider range of potential projectiles open to you. That and it's also less expensive to shoot than .308.

Prometheus | 01-31-2007 02:55 AM
Re: Gun recommendation Coming into this thread late I've read all of page one and skimmed 2 and 3. If I am redundant I appologize... I would not choose an Ar because salt water and ARs just don't mixx in my book. When pitting and rust set in (and they will) tight tolerances are not what I want. An AK is a great choice... rust it up and if you have a good boot you can kick the rusted bolt open and it's ready to go. Next on my list is a G3 (might be number one because of caliber). AK reliable and AR accurate. Not as AK like on kicking open the bolt, but at the same time not a tight as a AR. The big thing is caliber choice. Pirates will be hiding behind the hull of their bat and closing distance taking shots at you that will be going thru your hull like a hot knife thru butter (they use AK's, FALs and G3's). You better be able to punch thru their slightly armored (not in the steel plate sense, but in the 'padded sides' sense) or they ain't turning back. If you got a gun, you got something worth taking. Not to mention the emboldening of not wanting to be run off. Rich yuppie 'sailors' often keep a .38 revolver "in case of pirates"... They don't consider that at 100 yards it's about worthless vs a boat let alone what to do after their 5 shots are gone. Last word on caliber choice, I'd forego my normal choice of an AK74 (.223 type bullet) and opt for atleast the 7.62x39 AK or preferably the 7.62x51 (.308) G3 on a boat anyday. You don't care about the heavier AK or G3 simply because the farthest you have to run is from the fore to the aft of your vessle. Shotguns for onboard use are a great idea. Shotguns for ship to ship combat is a terrible idea... reference the yuppie .38 revolver above. Even with slugs your limited to 100 yards basically... and that means upgrading sights because standard ball shotgun sights suck for using slugs.

wallew | 01-31-2007 11:12 AM
Re: Gun recommendation MM, Yeah, I thought you might be an old Harley guy yourself. And I've got a friend with a TR3. THEY are excellent motorcycles. Scary fast. Stop on a dime an give change. And for the price, a great value if you ask me.

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