Page 1 of 2 | 1 | 2 | >
Show 30 post(s) from this thread on one page

Gold & Silver Forum (http://goldismoney.info/forums/index.php)
- Survival Prep (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=141)
- - Disposing of Dead Bodies (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=271400)

SilverCity | 06-05-2008 12:59 PM
Disposing of Dead Bodies Practical advice from http://www.survivalblog.com/ From WTSHTF to TEOTWAWKI: Cleaning Up After the Grim Reaper, by "Sarah Connor" "Death is still a fearful, frightening happening, and the fear of death is a universal fear even if we think we have mastered it on many levels." - Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, M.D. We have nothing to fear but fear itself, as the saying goes. The basis of much fear is simply the unknown. As a society, we have distanced ourselves from death. Hospitals, nursing homes, hospices, and funeral homes do all the "dirty work" and cemetery's are neatly hidden behind fences and walls, trees and hedges. We pass by on a daily basis, unwilling to acknowledge what lies beyond those barriers; but the time is fast approaching when death will not hide its face any longer. Most of us are not prepared for wholesale death. We have little to no experience with it. We owe it to ourselves and to our families to become acquainted with this "fact of life" and learn how to manage its effects as best we can. The first thing we can do is to look death in the face. So what does death look like, anyway? Soon after death, anywhere from 15 minutes to two hours depending on various factors, the body begins to cool off. It becomes pale and internal sphincter muscles (i.e., circular muscles controlling stomach, bladder and anus) relax. This leads to the release of their contents if the body is moved. Dependent lividity sets in within about 30 minutes. This is where blood pools in the lowest parts of the body (usually the back and bottom of the person, if in a prone position) and begins to coagulate. Rigor mortis sets in and the muscles in the body begin to stiffen, the skin starts hardening, and hands and toes curl. (I know this is graphic, but think "wicked witch of the west that Dorothy's house just landed on with time lapse photography.) This peaks around 12 hours after death and disappears in another 24 hours, depending on the temperature. Decay becomes visible within 24 hours. Human intestines contain friendly bacteria that help us when we are alive but become predators after we die. The internal organs begin to collapse, the skin loses its connection with underlying tissues, and bacteria create gases that cause bloating and swelling. This is a major cause of the putrefaction (rot) that sets in. The internal organs eventually turn to liquid and when the liquid exits through the orifices (eyes, ears, nose, mouth, exit points of the bowel and bladder), it is called "purge." It's ugly and smelly. The last organs to liquefy are the uterus and prostate. They can last as long as 12 months. This is how a coroner can determine the sex of a corpse dead less than 12 months. It takes a corpse 12-20 years to return to dust depending on whether the corpse is an adult or child, what the grave temperature is, whether the body was fat (fat takes longer to break down), if and how it was embalmed, etc. In Scotland, where graves are reused, a grave is considered "ripe" until it is at least 20 years old; meaning if you open it before 20 years, you may be in for a very unpleasant surprise. (Due to the rocky terrain, graves in Scotland have to be reused.) So a corpse does not disappear quickly. So why not just leave it where it lies? If a corpse is left out in the open, wild animals and insects will feast on it. And if the body is diseased, disease will spread quickly to humans. If you wonder why, just imagine flies crawling in and all over a dead body and the purge oozing from the orifices, and then crawling all over your dinner. That is why dead bodies must be disposed of quickly. And flies are not the only lovers of dead meat. It has been observed that man's "best friend" will devour him when he dies. One man died at home and his dog tore him apart in less than an hour. Firemen used to allow their mascots to come along with them on runs until the fire trucks started following ambulances. The firemen had to stop allowing their dogs to come along on runs because the dogs went straight for the dead meat. Definitely a public relations situation not to mention a health hazard. Okay, so you've got a dead body in your vicinity. What are you going to do? Assuming the body is in the area you are inhabiting and you do not live near the ocean, you have two options, both of which require a lot of hard work: (1) you can bury it, or (2) you can incinerate it. But the one thing you cannot do is to ignore it. (1) Burying requires digging a hole six feet deep (and five feet wide and seven feet long, depending on the size of the corpse. You can either bury the body in a shroud or bury it in a pine box (links below). Either way, the corpse will decompose and bacteria could find its way into the water table, which is why current laws require a concrete liner. However, in emergency situations chances are concrete liners will not be available. That is why option 2 may be the better option, unless fire conditions exist (which is more likely given the current worldwide drought situation). (2) Cremation/Incineration (a/k/a "the funeral pyre") is both an ancient and modern practice for the disposition of dead bodies. For the pyre, stack up lots of wood. Then put the body on top of the wood and pour flammable liquid such as oil, motor oil, kerosene, heating oil, or charcoal on the body and the wood. Then ignite the fire. It is best to keep the fire burning as hot as possible. Do not use gasoline. This will destroy harmful germs quickly and won't contaminate the groundwater. Don't breathe the fumes, the smell of a burning human body is not only sickening, but could make you sick. Make sure the wind will carry the smoke away from your home (or camp). For detailed instructions on how to build a funeral pyre, see below. You can also use a furnace or incinerator if you have one available. If you happen to be near the ocean, feeding a corpse to the fish would be the easiest way to dispose of a corpse. However, if you are physically unable to do that or any of the above, the best thing to do is to wrap the corpse in plastic sheeting and move it as far away from your location as you can, preferably downwind and not near any body of water. Putting rocks over it (without burying it in the ground) would keep smaller animals from desecrating the remains and the plastic would keep the flies from crawling all over it. One thing to remember with any of these methods, except for burial at sea, is that you are leaving visible signs that someone is nearby. If this will be a security issue, then you must devise a plan to dispose of remains in a way that will be hidden from intruders. If you are in a position to have a funeral, don't think about embalming the body. It is a complicated process and requires special training, material and equipment. The only purpose of embalming is to delay the putrefaction process so that the funeral can take place 3-5 days after death. In an emergency situation, this will not be possible. Any funeral would have to be done quickly followed immediately by disposition of the body. Landfills are not a viable solution for the disposal of dead bodies either because not only of the presence of rats and smoke, but paper and plastic film dispersed by the winds, all of which could carry disease. Composting (animal remains) is also a non-viable option. Flies, mosquitoes, rats, wildlife, and other vectors of disease transmission would be attracted to the compost pile and after a hearty lunch would spread disease. Large bones and hides will not compost easily, thus defeating the composting process. As mentioned above, improper disposition of human (and animal) remains constitute a potential for ground and surface water contamination. Groundwater is contained in a geological layer called an aquifer. Aquifers are composed of permeable or porous geological material (materials that can be penetrated by liquids or gases) located at greater depths and, though somewhat protected, can still be contaminated when they are tapped for use or are close to a source of heavy contamination for a long time. And that, of course, leads to serious health concerns. When dealing with dead bodies, always wear a facemask, clothing barrier, gloves and goggles. Depending on the state of decay, gasses could be a problem and you need to be prepared if something were to explode and spew in your face. Decontaminate yourself thoroughly after handling a dead body, as well as your equipment and clothing. Every home should have a "Last Aid" kit containing the following items: 1. For burials: a. A pick mattock; b. A round and square-bladed shovel (one of each); c. Pre-made pine boxes that are easily screwed together and can be lain flat as a kit under the bed, or kept in the closet in a cardboard shipping (original) container. Needs only a few screwdrivers, and about 2 hours to assemble. No power tools needed. You could also make a coffin or two and use them as coffee tables or bookshelves or storage until they are needed (links below); d. Shroud material, or coffin lining material; e. A grave site picked out in the backyard or a place in the city park or the local graveyard. Those on farms or ranches can utilize the "Back 40" for the family cemetery; f. If there will be a viewing, put some glue on the lips of the deceased, otherwise the mouth can come open and scare people. There should be no viewing if the person died of an infectious disease. If death was caused by an accident and there is disfigurement, bandages could be placed or gauze placed to conceal the damage. Children should not be excluded from the grieving process and should not be lied to that "mommy is asleep" or "daddy is on a long trip." They can always tell something isn't right and will find out eventually anyway. g. Several strong ropes for lowering the coffin into the grave site. h. A marker of some type, if desired. 2. For incineration/funeral pyres: a. Flammable liquids (as described above); b. Wood; c. Fire (matches, BBQ lighters, etc.). 3. For situations that are not TEOTWAWKI scenarios wherein the government remains intact (such as might occur in a bird flu pandemic), the following will help the authorities with identification: a. A complete set of identification and papers should be kept with the body; and b. All medicines the deceased was taking, placed in a Ziploc bag along with an envelope containing the papers that describe the medicines and put with the body (this could help with further identification as well as an autopsy). 4. As a person nears death, several changes of bedding and blankets should be neatly folded, laundered and ready for changing. When a person is at the point of passing away, the bowel and bladder functions naturally release the sphincter muscles and discharge will follow. a. Remember, the same bed will likely be reused, so it is best to encase the mattress in a protective cover. Burn the plastic cover after the person dies and disinfect the mattress. b. Soiled laundry should not be re-used if it can't be cleaned with bleach. If the deceased person died from an infectious disease, soiled laundry should be burned. Always take standard precautions (gloves, goggles, clothing barrier) when handling infected materials. 5. Bodies should be disposed of within 24 hours, if at all possible. Sooner, if death was caused by a contagious disease or the outside temperature is hot. 6. If it is winter or you are in a cold climate, a body can stay frozen, but needs to be disposed of before it thaws. 7. Get some books on grieving, how to conduct a funeral, etc. and get educated so when death comes you will be prepared to deal with it mentally and emotionally. With that taken care of, you will be better equipped to assist all affected by death. Unstable times are upon us. Things like funerals may become a thing of the past in order to just survive. The most important thing to focus on is preparing yourself mentally and emotionally in advance for the prospect of death, including perhaps your own or your loved ones. Education and preparation are vital so that you will be able to continue functioning in a survival situation. References: How to Build a Funeral Pyre How to Build a Coffin (has links to other articles as well as listing several interim uses for a coffin) Coffins, Shrouds, Green Burials, Books on Death/Dying, etc. "On Death and Dying", Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, M.D. "Death to Dust", Kenneth V. Iserson JWR Adds: Laws on burial on private property vary widely. Be sure to consult your state and local laws. In the event of a disaster situation you may end up burying a loved one ad hoc, and have to catch up on death certificate paperwork after order is restored. Some digital photographs and sworn and notarized statements may suffice to prevent the indignity of a subsequent exhumation. In many ways, do-it-yourself burial is a lot easier to explain to public officials than cremation. Also keep in mind that that it takes a tremendous amount of fuel to fully cremate a human body. This is not an issue for regions with plentiful firewood, but it could be a limiting factor in other regions.

Juristic Person | 06-05-2008 01:00 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies When disposing of a body in water, you need to cut the intestines open to prevent the body from floating to the surface.

Black Blade | 06-05-2008 02:26 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies "Donner! Donner! Party of five!" ..... "Make that party of four!".

Turtle Man | 06-05-2008 02:36 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies I dump all of my victims in Seattle. The moist climate seems to take care of them quicker. The cops are all "We think it's some kind of mammal". hehheh :bear_w00t:

Darkside | 06-05-2008 02:41 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Brick Top: Quote:
And when you got your six pieces, you gotta get rid of them, because it's no good leaving it in the deep freeze for your mum to discover, now is it? Then I hear the best thing to do is feed them to pigs. You got to starve the pigs for a few days, then the sight of a chopped-up body will look like curry to a pisshead. You gotta shave the heads of your victims, and pull the teeth out for the sake of the piggies' digestion. You could do this afterwards, of course, but you don't want to go sievin' through pig shit, now do you? They will go through bone like butter. You need at least sixteen pigs to finish the job in one sitting, so be wary of any man who keeps a pig farm. They will go through a body that weighs 200 pounds in about eight minutes. That means that a single pig can consume two pounds of uncooked flesh every minute. Hence the expression, "as greedy as a pig".

momopanda | 06-05-2008 02:54 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Find a couple big metal garbage barrels, and a steep hill. Half bury one, horizontally into the hill, open end facing out, and then the other vertically, open end up ( with a light piece of metal or corrugated tin loosely covering the opening) about 25 feet higher up the hill. With some drainage tile or other piping connecting the rear of the first barrel to the bottom of the second. Light fire in first. Hang "meat" in second. There ya go , kills two birds with one stone. Waste not your resources.:shocked_ma::tongue_ma:

phideaux | 06-05-2008 03:04 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies YouTube - Monty Python-Bring out your dead!
YouTube - Monty Python-Bring out your dead!

DogFarm | 06-06-2008 12:24 AM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies well, if i were locked inside my high rise loft with my dogs and i died and they were starving hell yeah i would expect them to eat me.

DC7 | 06-06-2008 02:46 AM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Here's an old Asian fable: Real Friends and False Friends. There once was a man. He and his aquaintinces all wore expensive clothes, drove new cars, and lived in big houses. His wife would tell him "What's up with your brother? when's the last time we've seen him? We should have him over....." He would always say, "My brother wears old clothes, drives an old truck, and lives in a small house....... he wouldn't fit in with my circle...... I don't want him over, he's embarassing". And that's the way it was. The man went on with his fancy life doing fancy things and hanging out with fancy people. Until one day, the man came home to find his wife frantic and on the verge of tears. He asked what was the matter and the story spilled out of her. Thier neighbor had come over while he was at work, and had tried to rape her....... she fought back, and hit him over the head with the first thing she could reach, which was a ball peen hammer he'd left on a shelf when he was working on something. Thier neighbor was dead. The man didn't know what to do...... Thier neighbor was the sheriff's son, and the sheriff was widely known for not being a fair or honest man, and they had a reasonable expectation he might kill them once he found what had happened. The man decided they needed to hide the body. She agreed, said she'd thought the same thing, and had already wrapped up the body in blankets and duct tape. The man called friend #1, who owned hunting property with an old deep mine shaft on it, and explained the situation. Well, the guy explained he'd love to help, but he couldn't because he already had other commitments. So he called friend #2 who had a boat, and explained again, but again this one was caught up in something and couldn't get away. Friend #3, and another version of the same story........ sorry, love to help, but I got this other thing I need to do.......... Finally, when he was running out of options, his wife says "why don't you call your brother now, he'll help you". "Why would he help me? I haven't seen him in years......" said the man. "What choice do you have? You need help and you're running out of people to turn to." said the wife. Well, the brother drives over right away no questions asked...... they wrap the blanketed and taped body in a large piece of carpet and take it out to the bed of the truck, then throw some plywood in and finish tying it down just before the man's 3 "friends" show up making accusations, with the sheriff. The sheriff is yelling and has his gun drawn, with murder in his eyes but the wife quickly intervenes. She tells them that afternoon, the sheriff's son had come to thier house to ask her to feed his dog cause he had a unexpected emergency and had to leave town to take care of it right then. The sheriff was skeptical, but when they untied the rope and opened the blankets, all that was in them were bags of garbage. The wife explained she was trying to teach her husband a lesson: A friend will help you move........... but a true brother will help you move bodies.

ProblemSolver | 06-06-2008 09:49 AM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Quote:
A friend will help you move........... but a true brother will help you move bodies.
Ain't that the truth! This is a good thread. It's not something I had actually given any thought to, how to dispose of the MZB's once you've shot them to hell. I'm a big believer in pyres. Maybe select one of the foreclosed houses in your neighborhood, stack them all inside and light the whole thing. Of course, in some neighborhoods, the houses are so close, that might be dangerous.

mtnman | 06-06-2008 10:38 AM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Three old tires, gallon of Diesel fuel. Lay tires on ground, lay body on top of tires, pour Diesel fuel on everything. Light, gone in about a half hour.

Squirrel Bait | 06-06-2008 12:28 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Whaddaya do with the bones? s

Black Blade | 06-06-2008 02:28 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Bait (Post 1134654) Whaddaya do with the bones?
Grinder! Potasium Phosphate powder is a good soil conditioner for gardens.

mtnman | 06-06-2008 03:32 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Bait (Post 1134654) Whaddaya do with the bones? s
Using the tire method there won't be much left but the wire from the tires and black ash. And the ash is toxic so don't do this close to home.

Maddie | 06-07-2008 12:53 AM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies I sat on the jury of a murder trial once. The murderer had burned his victim's body in his backyard and scattered the few remains somewhere off his property. His neighbors had seen the fire in the wee hours of the morning and thought it was strange, but there was a vacant lot between the two houses, so they didn't see anything other than his outline against the fire. Of course, he didn't admit to how he'd disposed of the body until after he lost his appeal, but the prosecution made a good case for it.

shades2 | 06-08-2008 07:58 AM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Tree shredder, good for multiple disposal situations too. :D

Twisted Avatar | 06-08-2008 08:09 AM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 1134489) Three old tires, gallon of Diesel fuel. Lay tires on ground, lay body on top of tires, pour Diesel fuel on everything. Light, gone in about a half hour.
Whoa........ Good info to know........ T

pinetree | 06-08-2008 08:43 AM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies with all the broken familys now and the expence of funnerals , who is paying for the unclaimed bodys now?

RaccoonRiverRadical | 06-08-2008 09:07 AM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Quote:
Originally Posted by DogFarm (Post 1134082) well, if i were locked inside my high rise loft with my dogs and i died and they were starving hell yeah i would expect them to eat me.
It's a myth buster. Supposedly, according to the standard account by dog lovers in the ongoing debate with cat lovers, dogs will lie down and die beside the beloved master, whereas a cat will begin eating soon thereafter. Wait until I bring this up to the dog lovers at work. :wink:

RaccoonRiverRadical | 06-08-2008 09:08 AM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 1136706) Tree shredder, good for multiple disposal situations too. :D
Yes, in which case composting would be no problemo.

jersey devl | 06-08-2008 09:13 AM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies depends on thie situation... sit #1 rural =mtnmans way or 1 large can of black powder. sit.#2 urban = gruesome cutting and sawing and a mix of either jeff dahmer or to the pigs or dogs.(dont forget the farver beans) I ...heard a story about a guy that had a boat and said to take the example in question out on lake michigan with a piece of styrophoam and a large can of black powder...whatever is left after the blast the gulls will pick up.

shades2 | 06-08-2008 11:24 AM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies In a war-time situation, I have heard of special forces being trained to set a mine on a body, or plastic explosive, by wrapping the body around it, and just let 'er rip. This pretty well prevents identification, as there should not be much left afterward.

elroy | 06-08-2008 12:09 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Two cases in Indiana in the last few years. First one, a woman actually killed a man and fed him to her pigs. This worked fairly good. Second, a man murdered his wife and dismembered her body. Then he burned it up in a barrel with gas or diesel for fuel. Threw the bones in a large river.

EireGoBragh | 06-08-2008 02:18 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Anyone ever see that movie "Fargo"? a wood-chipper was made use of....Grim

____hoot____ | 06-08-2008 02:48 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Up here in the woods we have a errr "underground" method called stumping. Find a fresher windfall in an area with a high water table, place the "item" in the depressed area where the shallow roots were, chain saw the trunk, the stump and roots spring back, end of problem.

RatHoler | 06-08-2008 03:03 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy (Post 1136937) Two cases in Indiana in the last few years. First one, a woman actually killed a man and fed him to her pigs. This worked fairly good. Second, a man murdered his wife and dismembered her body. Then he burned it up in a barrel with gas or diesel for fuel. Threw the bones in a large river.
That is how Al Swearengen got rid of bodies in Deadwood. :D

mtnman | 06-08-2008 04:17 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies When I was a kid my grandmothers next door neighbor, Mr. Eppinger when missing. He had about 20 hogs on his farm. All they found was a boot and a part of a shirt in the hog lot. They figured he had a heart attack while feeding his hogs. Hogs will eat most anything.

Silver Shield | 06-08-2008 06:18 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies This clip has it all... TSHHTF, guns, swords, shooting zombies, GOLD, disposing of dead bodies and hot women... <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eL0aPDOSu80&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eL0aPDOSu80&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Maddie | 06-08-2008 10:01 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Why would you want to dispose of hot women??? :D

____hoot____ | 06-08-2008 10:09 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 1137190) When I was a kid my grandmothers next door neighbor, Mr. Eppinger when missing. He had about 20 hogs on his farm. All they found was a boot and a part of a shirt in the hog lot. They figured he had a heart attack while feeding his hogs. Hogs will eat most anything.
One of my buddy's baby brothers wandered into their hog pen when we were kids back in the 50's, with the same result. Was always one of those dark family secrets, as they correctly didn't call the "pigs".

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:08 AM. |
Page 1 of 2 | 1 | 2 | >
Show 30 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright = None use it and Link to GIM

Gold & Silver Forum - Disposing of Dead Bodies

Page 2 of 2 | < | 1 | 2
Show 30 post(s) from this thread on one page

Gold & Silver Forum (http://goldismoney.info/forums/index.php)
- Survival Prep (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=141)
- - Disposing of Dead Bodies (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=271400)

Worldmariner | 06-10-2008 05:15 AM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 1133285) Practical advice from http://www.survivalblog.com/ From WTSHTF to TEOTWAWKI: Cleaning Up After the Grim Reaper, by "Sarah Connor" "Death is still a fearful, frightening happening, and the fear of death is a universal fear even if we think we have mastered it on many levels." - Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, M.D.JWR Adds: Laws on burial on private property vary widely. Be sure to consult your state and local laws. In the event of a disaster situation you may end up burying a loved one ad hoc, and have to catch up on death certificate paperwork after order is restored. Some digital photographs and sworn and notarized statements may suffice to prevent the indignity of a subsequent exhumation. In many ways, do-it-yourself burial is a lot easier to explain to public officials than cremation. Also keep in mind that that it takes a tremendous amount of fuel to fully cremate a human body. This is not an issue for regions with plentiful firewood, but it could be a limiting factor in other regions.
Well, the topic was a bit morbid, but certainly I found much of the information useful. It is a topic that no one wants to think about but will be an issue for sure in the event of a TEOTWAWKI or some such similar catastrophe.

stranger | 06-10-2008 10:20 AM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Wait 'til dark. Put body in 50 gal drum, add 4# lye and enough water to cover the corpse. Go to bed. Get up in the morning and pour out the soup. Sterilizes, destroys DNA, and renders most of the bones and teeth into a slightly thicker pulp than tissue. Any that remain intact will crumble in your hand like wet chalk.

Unclad Lad | 06-11-2008 11:23 PM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies Quote:
b. All medicines the deceased was taking, placed in a Ziploc bag along with an envelope containing the papers that describe the medicines and put with the body (this could help with further identification as well as an autopsy).
Assuming he hadn't contaminated everything he touched, his medications would go into storage or immediate use. This assumes SHTF to TEOTWAKI severity.

Aussie | 06-12-2008 12:50 AM
Re: Disposing of Dead Bodies That was a good read. . . . I learned a few things I didn't know. Thanks.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:08 AM. |
Page 2 of 2 | < | 1 | 2
Show 30 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright = None use it and Link to GIM