Page 1 of 2 | 1 | 2 | >
Show 30 post(s) from this thread on one page

Gold & Silver Forum (http://goldismoney.info/forums/index.php)
- Survival Prep (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=141)
- - Best 9mm defense round? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=163526)

buff01 | 08-06-2007 04:03 PM
Best 9mm defense round? Hey everyone... Obviously I'm getting JHP, but the question is: What's better-- subsonic or +P+? I'm leaning toward subsonic because I'm guessing it has less wall penetration. Opinions?

Bob | 08-06-2007 04:11 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? I'd probably go for the gold dot +P's you can find at gunbroker.com for $220/1000. That's I guess my opinion based on price/performance though not purely performance.

NOOB | 08-06-2007 05:08 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? 1 Attachment(s) You'll need these rounds for terrorists. Says so on the box. NOOB

Anty Ep | 08-06-2007 05:09 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? used to be 124 grn hydrashok jhp I can only think of one reason to use subsonic and it's not ballistics, its if you're using a can

Kahlil Gibran | 08-06-2007 05:19 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? I like the 124 grain HydraShock in my 9mm pistol. They feed well, are accurate, and so far very reliable over all.

buff01 | 08-06-2007 05:33 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? hmm.. looks like federal hydra-shok is twice the price of the speer gold dot... they have the same specs that I can see.

extremist | 08-06-2007 05:36 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/...47gr%209mm.jpg The 'T' in 'RA9T' is for Talon, as in Black Talon, which this ammo replaces. The 'Law Enforcement Ammunition' line is there just to impress the easily impressed.

Wyldwil | 08-06-2007 05:36 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Can you find some 9mm in .45? :D:D:D

Anty Ep | 08-06-2007 05:42 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyldwil (Post 687112) Can you find some 9mm in .45? :D:D:D
ever heard of 38 super? aka 9x21

Kahlil Gibran | 08-06-2007 05:44 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Quote:
Originally Posted by buff01 (Post 687109) hmm.. looks like federal hydra-shok is twice the price of the speer gold dot... they have the same specs that I can see.
That's why Gold Dot is the most popular.

thorgrim | 08-06-2007 05:44 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Quote:
Originally Posted by buff01 (Post 687109) hmm.. looks like federal hydra-shok is twice the price of the speer gold dot... they have the same specs that I can see.
I think gold dots are a good choice.

REV127 | 08-06-2007 06:01 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Magsafe and Glaser are the out and out best if over penetration is a major worry as in a poorly constructed apartment. The risk Vs return on this isn't such that I'd go with either of these. The most important thing is shot placement. Even 115gr fmj will tumble but a non-critical hit is not ever going to be a reliable stopper regardless of caliber or bullet design. With that out of the way I like Golden Saber, Gold Dot and 147gr Winchester Personal Defense. SXT, Hydrashock and others are good too. There's noting wrong with +P if your gun can handle it and it's well known 9x19 was designed to be loaded hotter than average here in the US and is so-loaded in Europe but fractional inch expansion that may look good in paper should never come at the cost of fast, accurate shot placement. If +p makes your gun unpleasant to shoot or interferes with your accuracy then go with something else.

buff01 | 08-06-2007 06:12 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Looks like gold dot is it. BTW, I shoot a GLOCK 19.

TomD | 08-06-2007 06:33 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? The main thing is to shoot enough to be familiar with your pistols. Shoot 100 rounds of ball ammo every couple of months and finish up with a few rounds of the expensive stuff just to see how it compares. Hopefully you have access to an outdoor range where you can shoot a bunch of distances and target types, falling metal plates are fun. Any of the premium defense rounds today will be fine. 9MM is light for my taste but it works with shot placement. Stay in the 115-125 grain range. If you want to get really good, start competing in one of the action pistol disciplines.

Kahlil Gibran | 08-06-2007 06:36 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Quote:
Originally Posted by buff01 (Post 687175) Looks like gold dot is it. BTW, I shoot a GLOCK 19.
Both good choices. :beer:

buff01 | 08-06-2007 09:00 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Thanks again guys. Just won an auction on GunBroker. Great site, I wonder why prices are about 2-5X higher in EVERY local gun store?

Anty Ep | 08-06-2007 10:17 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Quote:
Originally Posted by buff01 (Post 687351) Thanks again guys. Just won an auction on GunBroker. Great site, I wonder why prices are about 2-5X higher in EVERY local gun store?
they are selling to noobs, thats why. people screw up the courage to finally go buy a gun and they dont know what the hell the market prices are, so the uniform practice is to gouge. so if you arent a noob and you go into a gun shop, the only way they give you a discount is if you are a regular and you are ready to move some weight, and the noobs aint watchin. shotgun news is a good publication if you are buying a lot of guns and ammo.

SAUM | 08-07-2007 12:51 AM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? My choice is to alternate power ball with hydroshock

Unclad Lad | 08-11-2007 11:14 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Be advised that the EXTREME SHOCK only applies to the cost, not to the effectiveness.

tulsamal | 08-12-2007 01:24 AM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? I know the heavier 9mm offerings have gotten better but I just can't get enthusiastic about them. And even a high quality 115 grain JHP feels a little too light. So I personally carry the Ranger 127 grain +P+ load. Certainly has a proven street record in the LEO community. G

money matters | 08-12-2007 01:43 AM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Relying on a 9mm parabellum pistol to stop a fight is a gamble. I bought my first and only 9mm in 11th grade, a P35 Browning Hi-Power. Cost $104, Belgian made, came with the zippered rug like my Challenger. Sold that gun, both actually, a couple years later. Never owned another 9mm. The 9mm is a utility round, not a fight stopper. In these Final Moments, while you can still buy A Proper Pistol, one you will trust your life with; my vote goes to the 1911 Colt design in .45acp. You want a heavy bullet, with a flat point to stop a threat to your life at pistol range. Better yet, buy a 44magnum and handload for it! A flat-point 240 grain bullet at 1000 fps is very controllable, even for some women. The Charter Arms Bulldog is still in production. Load your own .44spl ammunition with the goal of launching that big flatpoint bullet with all the velocity you can handle. Big Bullets stop fights. Big Bullets kill game. All the practice and expertise cannot compensate for insufficient bullet mass. You pretty much have to do the job with your first blow, because you may get no additional ones. 45 or 44 have the torque to do the work. If you take your personal weaponry Seriously, don't compromise on cost or caliber. I am sure you can find lots to do with that 9mm Para. Just don't trust your life to it.

shades2 | 08-12-2007 03:59 AM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 692966) Relying on a 9mm parabellum pistol to stop a fight is a gamble. I bought my first and only 9mm in 11th grade, a P35 Browning Hi-Power. Cost $104, Belgian made, came with the zippered rug like my Challenger. Sold that gun, both actually, a couple years later. Never owned another 9mm. The 9mm is a utility round, not a fight stopper. In these Final Moments, while you can still buy A Proper Pistol, one you will trust your life with; my vote goes to the 1911 Colt design in .45acp. You want a heavy bullet, with a flat point to stop a threat to your life at pistol range. Better yet, buy a 44magnum and handload for it! A flat-point 240 grain bullet at 1000 fps is very controllable, even for some women. The Charter Arms Bulldog is still in production. Load your own .44spl ammunition with the goal of launching that big flatpoint bullet with all the velocity you can handle. Big Bullets stop fights. Big Bullets kill game. All the practice and expertise cannot compensate for insufficient bullet mass. You pretty much have to do the job with your first blow, because you may get no additional ones. 45 or 44 have the torque to do the work. If you take your personal weaponry Seriously, don't compromise on cost or caliber. I am sure you can find lots to do with that 9mm Para. Just don't trust your life to it.
I'll listen to this Navy Seal Instructor though regarding the 9mm caliber: <object height="350" width="425"> <embed src="about:blank" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="350" width="425"></object> He's a Seal Instructor, so he is not speaking hypothetically. He knows less recoil = greater accuracy. Accuracy is going to dictate whether your target goes down or not in a timely fashion, not the size of the hand cannon. A .50 Cal Desert Eagle is great, but if you miss with the first shot, you are going to have a lot of fun getting a follow-up shot on target in a split second. For concealed carry the 9mm is great, you get a lot of mag capacity you just don't get with a .45. Those extra rounds can mean the difference between life and death. They also don't fly forever or over-penetrate things. The 9mm recoil is also very controllable which promotes better accuracy in rapid shooting, which is precisely what happens in most firefights when people unload on each other. I, like a lot of people have a harder time with the recoil on say a Colt .45. The only exception to this would be a HK Pro SOCOM Mark 23 Mod 0 .45 which handles the recoil exceptionally well, but it is a massive gun and totally unsuited for civilian carry use. (Unless you want to scare the bejeezus out of everyone around you). There is however a "compact" version the HK USP in .45ACP .40 and 9mm, which is about the size of a more regular service pistol. I have never shot a .45 version of a USP though, just the SOCOM, which is a wonderful handgun to shoot. http://www.hkpro.com/socom.htm A good compromise is the .357 SIG in say a P229, or a .40 GLOCK. Now the .357 and larger calibers will penetrate things, so you must be aware of this. What the 9mm won't do for you, is shoot through car windscreens effectively or barriers, but this can also be part of the appeal for safety.

tulsamal | 08-12-2007 10:07 AM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Quote:
Relying on a 9mm parabellum pistol to stop a fight is a gamble.
If we are talking military use and FMJ, I'll agree. For civilian or police use today, I strongly disagree. The Miami shootout was the pivotal moment for handgun bullet design and especially for the 9mm. Handgun self-defense ammo had gone charging off toward higher and higher velocities and hollow points that opened very rapidly. The bullet makers hadn't been too concerned about penetration depth. The FBI changed their minds and their standard after Miami. Which led to the 10mm and then the .40 S&W. Just as important, it changed the way the bullet makers designed and constructed their bullets. The Ranger SXT, Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, and XTP's (among others) have revolutionized terminal performance with handguns. If we restrict ourselves to such top level ammo, there is no statistical difference in actual street shootings with 9mm, 40, or 45 ACP. Because of that, I now recommend that people pick the gun model/design that they shoot well before caliber selection. If the gun you shoot the best only comes in 9mm, don't worry about it. Just use the top shelf ammo and be happy. If you shoot the 1911 the best and can conceal it, more power to you and enjoy .45 ACP. (It isn't like .45 ACP is either equal or superior in all categories anyway. Tactical penetration has always been a problem in the caliber.) I carried a .44 Special for years. Wanted that big bullet. I'm a very experienced shooter and recoil doesn't make any difference to me one way or the other. The S&W M296 was just what I wanted. But people change over time. The one auto that I fully appreciated was the H&K P7M8. Just couldn't afford one. I finally managed to buy one a year or so ago. I tried out some of the premium 9mm, settled on the Ranger load, put the M296 in the safe and started carrying the P7. I'm perfectly happy with the gun and the caliber. Quote:
A good compromise is the .357 SIG in say a P229, or a .40 GLOCK. Now the .357 and larger calibers will penetrate things, so you must be aware of this. What the 9mm won't do for you, is shoot through car windscreens effectively or barriers, but this can also be part of the appeal for safety.
I'm a big .357 SIG fan and usually end up defending the caliber on the internet. I have a custom barrel for my Glock 35 in .357 SIG and it made that gun a lot more interesting to me. But let's not pretend it is a 100% more effective gun than a 9mm with today's premium ammo. A .357 SIG out of my G35 is only 100-150 fps faster than the 127 SXT +P+ out of my 9mm P7. Yes, that would be a bit more penetration. All things being equal, the .357 SIG will be better. But I would guess we are only talking 5-10% at best. I'm willing to "step down" that slight amount in order to carry the gun design that I prefer. G

AMforPM | 08-12-2007 11:17 AM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 687166) Magsafe and Glaser are the out and out best if over penetration is a major worry as in a poorly constructed apartment.
I don't use a 9mm so I may be unaware of feeding problems, if any, but Magsafe and Glaser are my defense rounds. They are expensive, but have been extensively tested and deliver their power to any flesh you might be unfortunate enough to need to defend yourself from very well indeed. They do a lot more damage than any other ammunition type to living beings hit, but don't have wall penetration or richochet on pavement problems for killing innocent neighbors by accident. We use much less expensive wadcutters if we want to shoot targets. From the Magsafe site http://www.magsafeonline.com/magnum_performance.html Quote:
MAGNUM PERFORMANCE WITH SAFETY... That's the concept which led to MagSafe Ammo, the world's most effective handgun ammo. There isn't another bullet anywhere with the take-charge performance offered by MagSafe Ammo. DESIGNED FOR PERFECT PENETRATION DEPTH MagSafe's revolutionary design uses large lead shotgun pellets rather than solid lead for a bullet's core. The earliest versions (1986-1987) used small pellets, like the #6 shot a competitor uses for their "Silver" line of frangible ammo. Early in the design process, hundreds of videotaped test shots were made into ordnance gelatin. Then, viewed in slow motion, you could see how a core's pellet size and pattern created the greatest wound damage for any given caliber. It was quickly learned that using much larger #2 or #3 shot gave perfect penetration depth in gelatin or flesh-form 10 to 13 inches (two to three times as much penetration as our competitors). A large man's chest is only 12 inches thick from front to back, and any more penetration than that was wasted energy which would endanger innocent people. That was the first goal reached - ammunition which won't overpenetrate a torso and hurt or kill innocent bystanders. REDUCED RICOCHET HAZARD One side benefit of using huge shot pellets is the reduction of ricochets, because larger objects are affected more by rotational forces. Tests showed that MagSafe Ammo won't even glance off slimy, wet boards at the most shallow of angles. They also don't ricochet off windshields, car doors or interior house walls. And, most importantly, they won't glance off bone. ANOTHER GOAL WAS REACHED. "CONTROLLED-CORE TECHNOLOGY" For almost a year, experimentation with shot placement within the bullet's jacket continued, looking for a fan-shaped pellet wound channel. It was felt that the wider the pattern the better the chance of hitting vital organs, even with a poolry-placed shot. By arranging pellets in specific patterns, literally stacking them in place one at a time, by hand, bullets could be designed to work nearly any way wanted - maybe deeper penetration, or wider wound channel, some even to break apart in sheetrock walls. To stabilize the pellet patterns until the instant of impact, dozens of types of epoxy resins were tested. A custom blend with perfect properties was found - it is easily broken apart at impact, yet tough enough to launch at twice the velocity of normal bullets. No other ammo uses high-tech resins or pellets put onto specific patterns by hand. WORLD'S FASTEST AMMO - YET LOWEST RECOIL! The final goal - to have the world's fastest ammo, yet with much less recoil than standard (slower) ammunition - was really tough. However, hot loads are now offered like the .45 ACP SUPER SWAT load, which clocks 2,160 + feet per second (fps) in a five-inch auto - yet has about one-third the recoil. The 9mm Mini-Glock Load cruises along at about 2,000 fps from Glock's teensy Model 26, yet has far more stopping ability than the nastiest .357 magnum or 10mm hollowpoint in the world. Yet the recoil is about like shooting low-powered target loads! LOTS OF FOLKS SAID "IT WON'T WORK" For example, half a dozen gun "experts" stated a 66-grain bullet would not function a .45 ACP weapon. So, MagSafe was tested in full-auto Tommy Guns, which don't function very well at all with light ammo. It was also tried in a 645 Smith with 28-lb. recoil springs - just to make sure. Then the folks at Magnum Research said a slug as light as 250 grains would not function their massive Desert Eagle in .50 Action Express Caliber. MagSafe's 180-grainer functioned perfectly under all conditions. MAGSAFE SWEPT THE STRASBOURG TESTS The now -famous Strasbourg Tests put MagSafe on the map. To Summarize what nearly everyone already knows, over 600 live French Alpine goats (their bodies are very much like humans) were shot under controlled conditions: no anesthetic, same shot placement form animal to animal, and with blood pressure and heart rate monitors to determine the Incapacitation Time (measure of how long it took a goat to cease functioning after the single shot was delivered). MagSafe Ammo worked - better than anything else. Tests were done without MagSafe's knowledge, so some versions tested were the lowest powered. For example, two types of .380 ACP are offered; the .380 Defender, a 60-grainer at 1,360 fps in a Colt Mustang; and the .380 MAX (designed for a big city's undercover drug agents) with a 52-grain slug sizzling along at 1,620 fps in the Mustang. The Defender has 247 ft-lbs of energy, while the MAX load has 303 ft-lbs. The Defender's lower velocity hampered stopping power, resulting in a Average Incapacitation Time (AIT) of 7.12 seconds. That's the average time for five different goats, each shot once with the MagSafe 60-grain Defender. However - and this is where things get interesting - there wasn't a jacketed hollowpoint bullet in ANY caliber which dropped the goats faster than MagSafe's weakest .380 load! MagSafe's .380 beat every .45 ACP slug, every 10mm, every 9mm (including police-only ammo), every .40 caliber - no matter who made it - Cor-Bon, Remington, Glaser and HydraShok. In fact, MagSafe's lowest-powered .380 ACP load had an AIT faster than the best manstopper of all time - Remington's .357 Magnum 125-grain JHP! Average Incapacitation Times for all other MagSafe's calibers were in the 4-second range, and MagSafe topped the tests in every caliber but .357 Magnum (a prototype Quik-Shot beat by a fraction of a second), and .38 Special, where Glaser won by .04 seconds. Had the .38 Special tests been done in a 2-inch barrel, MagSafe would have topped that test, too. THE BOTTOM LINE MagSafe Ammo is faster, recoils less, and stops attackers faster than any other ammunition in the world. Elite forces are outfitted with MagSafe, from Navy SEALS to the Royal Hong Kong Police anti-gang units, from big-city undercover narcs to guards at some of America's meanest prisons. The reason is simple. MagSafe works. It's expensive, but it works. You really can turn your .380 into .45 auto, but you have to pay for this kind of hand-crafted performance. The question is this: Just how much is your life worth?

money matters | 08-12-2007 02:11 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Maybe in "Expert" hands, a 9mm parabellum is "capable". How many Expert, or Distinguished Master shooters carry a 9mm, unless required to by their employer? Who knows? What is an "expert" pistololero? Somebody who paid to sit at Jeff Cooper's knee at the real Gunsite? (What color was that?) We all trust our lives to our decisions. When I gave my life to God, I died unto this world. Yet I have been Given Witness to prepare and use firearms. Point is, my trust is not in a ctg, bullet, or my ability. The pistol is a tool of last resort. I can carry any handgun openly or concealed where I live. Often I carry a .454 Casull which is about as close to a rifle on the hip as I can find in a repeater. If I am anticipating a fight, (which I have never had), I prefer a rifle, and carry one. But if the fight comes to me it will be a close range affair and I want a center of ribcage stopper. Armed with a Desert Eagle 44mag or a 454 Casull extends the odds in my favor by about 100 extra yards over the 9mm guy. I realize you guys live in places where you carry in defense of your life from other humans who might prey on you. Anyone fancying themselves as a survivalist in that environment has missed the concept entirely. If you live somewhere that you are likely to be prey; you need to move! Like the survivalist who lives a mile from a SAC airbase. I have read the arguments that the 125gr JHP .357Mag +P round is equal to the .45acp. Maybe. Except recoil is ferocious, and the K frame or J frame revolvers used to launch such loads cannot take continuous service of these loads. The 45acp in a 1911 is just so much more manageable, has less shockwave and is less mentally occupying to deliver each shot. Maybe YOU can outshoot Ed McGivern but most of us can't double-action six shots into an ace of spades in two seconds. Technology seems to make the 9mm a capable performer. Yet, if the police depts cared about their LEOs, they'd allow them a more capable ctg. But, for political reasons, the 9mm is their boy. Where do you place your trust? Heavy bullet, manageable recoil, target accuracy, functional excellence. Or is your reliance in technology and others' reports? Remember, you get only one instance to make The Correct Choice. Maybe a 9mm is good for shooting dogs, snakes and other vermin you don't have to be sure will die right away, but... Keith tells the story of the black cowpuncher delivering a herd to Chicago whom the RR cop mistook for a criminal and began shooting with a luger. The black cowhand said, "Is you through white boy?" and then killed the cop with a 45Colt. Keith said he lived long enough to tell passersby who the cattle belonged to and how to get in touch with the Montana rancher he represented. Most gunfights occur at close range, and happen Real Fast (so I'm told). If you need more than 6 rounds, better carry another clip or speedloader. More importantly, why are you letting some stranger get close enough to do you harm without a real weapon in your hands?

AMforPM | 08-12-2007 03:23 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? money, replay Quote:
MagSafe's .380 beat every .45 ACP slug
I like the 40s too, but the advances in ammo have made a difference. It is quite true that before glaser and magsafe nothing below the 40s had fast enough incapacitation to do the basic lifesaving job a 44 or 45 will do. That is no longer the case and with an ultralight titanium small frame 38 the reduced recoil of Magsafe makes it quite easy to use even for my wife while firing a freeze them with shock grade round. I wouldn't care to try it on bear, but then I would not willingly be without a 12 ga with slugs or a very good rifle in bear country. I have heard from old men who were in numerous gunfights in their youth in West Texas stories close to your story. With pre glaser and magsafe ammo, the smaller calibers might eventually kill your assailant, but not before he also killed you. But a 44 or 45 stopped them. A guy who survived being shot more than once said when shot with a 45 he was paralyzed with shock and unable to return fire. He survived because other ranch hands covered him. I have an 1893 Colt single action I am very sentimental about. But ammo advances have changed things and you can go below 40 now and still have true stopping power.

<SLV> | 08-12-2007 03:29 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Quote:
Originally Posted by buff01 (Post 687109) hmm.. looks like federal hydra-shok is twice the price of the speer gold dot... they have the same specs that I can see.
Look at them together and you will see the difference. Hydra-shok is great, but if you think you need to penetrate hard surfaces to get to the BG, then you need "Tactical Bonded" ammo. It will pierce car skins/glass and still expand in soft tissue.

AMforPM | 08-12-2007 03:47 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Quote:
It will pierce car skins/glass and still expand in soft tissue.
Now that is where Magsafe is no good. Then I would want a 45 and the kind of ammo you recommend.

Kahlil Gibran | 08-12-2007 08:09 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 693263) Armed with a Desert Eagle 44mag or a 454 Casull extends the odds in my favor by about 100 extra yards over the 9mm guy. I realize you guys live in places where you carry in defense of your life from other humans who might prey on you. Anyone fancying themselves as a survivalist in that environment has missed the concept entirely. If you live somewhere that you are likely to be prey; you need to move!
Attachment 31717 9mm is easily concealed in a pocket while your 44mag is probably in your pickup truck. :dontknow: there is a reason why this thread topic is 9mm

KASHMAN02 | 08-12-2007 08:26 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Quote:
Originally Posted by NOOB (Post 687082) You'll need these rounds for terrorists. Says so on the box. NOOB
HYPE SELLS

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:14 AM. |
Page 1 of 2 | 1 | 2 | >
Show 30 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright = None use it and Link to GIM

Gold & Silver Forum - Best 9mm defense round?

Page 2 of 2 | < | 1 | 2
Show 30 post(s) from this thread on one page

Gold & Silver Forum (http://goldismoney.info/forums/index.php)
- Survival Prep (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=141)
- - Best 9mm defense round? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=163526)

REV127 | 08-12-2007 08:38 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Quote:
Originally Posted by AMforPM (Post 693139) I don't use a 9mm so I may be unaware of feeding problems, if any, but Magsafe and Glaser are my defense rounds. They are expensive, but have been extensively tested and deliver their power to any flesh you might be unfortunate enough to need to defend yourself from very well indeed. They do a lot more damage than any other ammunition type to living beings hit, but don't have wall penetration or richochet on pavement problems for killing innocent neighbors by accident. We use much less expensive wadcutters if we want to shoot targets. From the Magsafe site http://www.magsafeonline.com/magnum_performance.html
The risk Vs return I mentioned wasn't anything to do with the Glaser or Magsafe not working with a well placed shot, it was just because they don't do well through intermediate barriers. Your local conditions may vary but where I am and in most urban environments I would want the better performance against intermediate barriers. Obviously if your primary concern is neighbors in a poorly constructed apartment complex or kids on the other side of drywall then the scales could tip toward these two. Nothing wrong with that at all, it's just that the way the equation balances for me is opting for versatility and relying on shot placement to handle the overpenetration angle. My father prefers the Glasers so I've been exposed to them enough to respect their abilities.

buff01 | 08-12-2007 10:09 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Very interesting discourse on why 9mm is terrible, but I already own one, and I like it. I feel much safer having 9mm hollowpoints and 17rd magazines than I would with a bigger gun and less ammo. I would love to see the 9mm naysayers get shot with one or two rounds of hollowpoint and try to "keep on coming". I just can't see it happening. Let alone getting hit with 5+ rounds. I will concentrate on accuracy rather than paying for a higher caliber gun.

electric-amish | 08-12-2007 11:51 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Big bullets and high capacity are what I'm looking for. I am probably going for the Smith and Wessen MP40 next month. .40 Cal seems the best compromise, Kimber will have to wait. I think by the time i have to pull a pistol something has probably started chewing on me through my tent or gotten so close I can't run. In these cases I want something that puts the hurt on something quick. High capacity in case SHTF and I'm running and firing. That Mag Safe ammo is pretty impressive. Getting some to have for certain circumstances would be prudent. Electric-Amish

Prometheus | 08-13-2007 01:58 AM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? I'll first try to answer the question about standard velocity vs +P or +P+ rounds. It depends on the size of the pistol. A small sub compact gun needs standard pressures IMO. Small gun weights less and wil jump more and be harder to get back on target for followup shots. A fullsize handgun is a betetr place for +P rounds. I use Quikshok ammo in my carry gun (XD 9mm 4" service model). Good stuff. I use 9mm remington 100 round bulk pack JHP's in my tiny Keltec P11... too much jump for such a small gun to use the faster loads... BTW this is the same ammo I use to function test my weapons on reliably feeding hollowpoints. 20 bucks at walmart for 100 rounds. I also have a P3AT .308 keltec that I use fiocchi JHP's in. The fiocchi is a bit hotter than standard velocities, but just under +p ratings. Does very well. I don't believe all the hype that you have to use super expensive exotic ammo to get super results. That said, don't use ball ammo if you can help it ;)

BeeYourself | 08-19-2007 02:03 AM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? I think the Glock 22 .40 is a good compromise here. You can add a hicap and get 15 rounds out of that which comes close to the 9mm, but the power of the round will be more suitable. I have 2 .45 1911 style pistols. One is a very compact Kimber pro carry II and a larger Springfield made one. I carry the Glock 22 daily and am most used to that particular firearm. What I notice is that when I swap to the 45's at the range they feel noticeably tighter. I don't know how to explain it, but when I go back to the .40 it feels very mushy and loose next to the 1911s. I think this has something to do with the polymer frame of the glock. I might replace the frame one day to tighten it up. So there are huge differences in feel. Basically I have figured out that I always have to finish the day with the Glock to get my feel back for it. So I agree that its good to stick with what is comfortable, but what that really means is what you are used to shooting the most. For some it might mean that it actually saved your life and that gives you more confidence. (your lucky gun) For my money I won't shoot anything under the .40 Glock 22 as a daily carry. The only time I would consider a smaller round like 9mm, is when a female is involved and she gets nervous about recoil. But then my friends would argue with that endlessly since many of them carry 9mm. ;-)

erocktxmade | 08-19-2007 08:37 AM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Great read. http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm Preface by Chuck Hawks, Managing Editor I decided to reproduce this rather long piece here partly because it is clearly the author's desire that it be widely disseminated. Another part is that it makes interesting reading, and I enjoy a good read as much as anyone. Although the author has some strong opinions and I don't necessarily agree with all of them, they are informed opinions and worthy of careful consideration. Actually, I have an idea about the identity of "Anonymous," which is another reason this piece appears here, but it is the author's desire to remain amonymous, and in any case I could be wrong. Self-defense ammunition is a field in which improvements are continually taking place. In order to keep this article timely, in February of 2006 I took the liberty of revising some sections in minor ways to keep them up to date and to include recent information. Enjoy Ammunition For The Self-Defense Firearm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a guide to help you select the best ammunition for your defensive firearm. Most of these opinions are based upon the work of Massad Ayoob, Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow, police officers who have extensively studied the issue of firearms, ammunition and stopping power. I refer all interested parties to the excellent series by Ayoob ('In the Gravest Extreme,''Stressfire,' 'The Semi-Automatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-Defense', 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun') and the comprehensive book 'Stopping Power' by Marshall and Sanow. In particular, it cannot be stressed too heavily that all gun owners should own a copy of 'In the Gravest Extreme' and re-read it periodically. Once you have read it you will understand why. Buy it. (The Ayoob titles - and other items like Cor-Bon ammunition and Spyderco 'Clipit' folding knives - are available mail order ($9.95@ and $3.95 shipping and handling) from "Police Bookshelf," P.O. Box 122, Concord NH 03302; telephone # 1-800-624-9049. American Express, VISA, Mastercard, and Discover cards gladly accepted. Order today - you will be grateful.) These three policemen are the world's foremost authorities on choosing ammunition for real-world defensive use. Their views are based on exhaustive review of thousands of police and civilian shooting incidents, autopsies, and ballistic tests. Some other authorities rely entirely on the latter (e.g. Dr. Martin Fackler, the FBI Wound Ballistics Lab, the National Institute of Justice Ballistic Research Laboratory) which is insufficient to make reliable predictions. Human beings react differently to being shot than gelatin, goats, or other test media, and bullets that perform spectacular feats in the laboratory sometimes give mediocre results on the street. A perfect example of this are the silly 1989-90 FBI tests which resulted in the FBI choosing the mediocre 10mm S&W Model 1076 and the 180 grain JHP round. For this reason, I have chosen to rely on Ayoob, Marshall, and Sanow when it comes to selecting my ammunition and strongly advise you do the same. What follows is essentially a distillation of their opinions. I urge you to research the sources listed for a more detailed discussion than is possible here. I cannot stress too heavily that the primary determinant of stopping power is BULLET PLACEMENT. A cool, deliberate marksman with a little .32 Walther PPK will beat a panicky, inaccurate man with a .357 Magnum or $1200 customized .45 auto every time. Whatever firearm and caliber you select, you must practice firing hundreds - thousands - of rounds in realistic defensive scenarios until you can confidently make disabling hits on your target. Tactics and marksmanship win gunfights - not having the latest 'wonder bullet' in your gun. Unfortunately, I cannot teach you tactics in this short essay, only recommend proven ammunition. You MUST seek out competent training in tactics and marksmanship from a qualified instructor in your area. In the meanwhile, studying Ayoob's great book 'Stressfire' will get you off to an excellent start. Self Defense Ammunition Generally American ammunition is the best in the world. Stick to Federal, Cor-Bon, Hornady, Remington, Winchester or CCI ammunition. Some foreign stuff is pretty good (PMC, IMI-Samson, Fiocci), some foreign stuff is great (Dynamit-Nobel, Norma, GECO), some foreign stuff is practice-only junk (e.g. Wolf, CDM - Mexico, military surplus), but no foreign stuff is anywhere near as good as domestic ammunition when it comes to vanquishing hostile attackers. Buy American. Never use hand-loaded or re-loaded ammunition for self-defense! You may encounter some joker who says he can hand-load ammunition so powerful it will knock anything on two legs down for the count, but don't buy it. This junk will either misfire or ruin your gun. Use only fresh factory-loaded cartridges, period. There are NO EXCEPTIONS to this rule: use factory-loaded cartridges only. Handguns One should carry only hollowpoint ammunition in a defensive handgun. Hollowpoint ammunition has much better stopping power than full metal jacket or round-nose lead, and stopping power is what you need when being assaulted. The point is not to wound or kill the adversary: the point is to stop him in his tracks and make him cease attacking you. "Stopping power" (sometimes called "knock-down power") refers to a particular bullet's ability to incapacitate an attacker - the greater that ability, the less chance that your attacker will be able to continue shooting, stabbing, or beating you after you have shot him. Handguns are not death-rays; despite what you see in the movies, the vast majority of people shot with handguns survive (over 80%). Handguns are weak compared to rifles and shotguns, and thus you want every edge you can get. Great ammunition is no more expensive than mediocre ammunition, so carry the best. Rifles and shotguns have stopping power to spare; handguns do not. Thus you must select your handgun load very carefully, and the detail of the handgun ammunition section reflects this. Hollowpoint ammunition is NOT more lethal than ball (full metal jacket) ammunition. You may have seen media hype about "killer dum-dum bullets" but this is nonsense. Hollowpoint bullets usually expand and stop in the human body, and thus the attacker absorbs much more of the bullet's kinetic energy than if the bullet had merely zipped through him and left two small holes. Hollowpoint ammunition is also safer for all parties concerned. * You are safer because your attacker is more likely to be incapacitated after one or two shots and thus unable to fire back, stab you, or whatever. The decreased likelihood of your attacker dying from hollowpoint bullets saves you the moral and legal complications and expense you will experience from killing a man. * Innocent bystanders are safer because hollowpoint bullets are less likely to exit the attacker's body and go on to injure anyone else. The ricochet danger is also much lower than that of ball ammunition, and hollowpoint bullets are less likely to penetrate walls or doors and strike uninvolved third parties. Furthermore, if your foe is incapacitated quickly he won't be spraying wild bullets around, endangering uninvolved third parties. * Lastly, your attacker is safer because he is far less likely to die from one or two hollowpoint bullets than the five or six round-nose slugs you would have had to fire to put him down. Most gunshot deaths occur from shock and loss of blood, and ball rounds tend to make entry and exit wounds, whereas hollowpoints go in and stay put. An attacker shot twice with ball ammo will probably have four holes in him rather than two, and is thus in far greater danger of death from blood loss. If you can avoid killing your attacker you should, for both moral and legal reasons. There are some exceptions to the "carry only hollowpoints in a handgun" rule. Some older or cheaper automatic pistols, will jam with hollowpoint rounds. With these guns one must use ball rounds (or "full metal jacket" rounds - the terms are synonymous), and I specify "reliable with ball only" models by caliber. It is crucial for you to test your pistol to make certain it is reliable with specific loads - don't rely on my advice. My life will never depend on the reliability of your handgun. Your life may. Rifles Generally speaking, fast expanding bullets are the best choice for rifles. Hollow point and plastic tipped bullets usually expand rapidly. Some soft-point designs are recommended, and these will be specified. Shotguns Use buckshot. Slugs and birdshot are useful in some limited and uncommon situations. A Note On Exotic Ammunition There are several exotic ammunition designs on the market today, such as the Glaser Safety Slug, Mag-Safe, GECO BAT 9mm, Thunderzap, et cetera. Generally speaking, I recommend that you avoid them. Exotic ammunition is expensive, inaccurate, and often unreliable. These rounds cost so much ($2-$4 each) that you will never practice with them and thus will not be certain of their reliability and accuracy in your gun. This is a big mistake: you should not carry a particular type of ammunition until you have fired at least 150 rounds through your semi-automatic gun to ensure reliable feeding (this doesn't really apply to revolvers, but you should still fire the ammunition you intend to carry to assure yourself of its accuracy). 'Glaser Safety Slugs' are one exotic round I can fully recommend, but only for revolvers in a few scenarios. The Glaser is a proven man-stopper and has very good quality control, but may not feed or cycle reliably in your automatic pistol. Because you cannot afford to fire enough Glasers to establish that it feeds reliably in your pistol (i.e. 100 test-fire rounds will cost $300), I cannot recommend them for pistol owners (if you insist on Glasers, carry one in the chamber and load the magazine with a proven hollowpoint. Be aware, however, that the Glaser may not have the power to cycle your slide, and thus you may be carrying a single-shot gun. You can always cycle the slide manually, of course, but this takes time and both hands; two things you may not be able to spare when fighting for your life. The Walther PPK, H&K P7 series and SIG P230 are notorious for this failure-to-cycle problem with Glaser Safety Slugs). With revolvers feeding is not an issue, of course, but there are other factors to consider. The Glaser is designed for easy break-up and minimal penetration, which is great for cutting down ricochet and over-penetration dangers but drastically limits its ability to penetrate light cover between you and your foe. A car window, hollow-core door, or even thick winter clothing between you and your assailant can cause the Glaser to disintegrate and leave him unharmed. Bad news for you....great news for him. There are some situations where the Glaser is a good choice, however. I keep my bedside .357 revolver loaded with .38 Special+P Glasers because I live in a thin-walled apartment building and want to be able to put down an intruder rapidly without worrying about injuring my neighbors. I chose .38 over .357 Magnums because I am likely to be in a just-awakened daze and would rather not be blinded and disoriented by the flash, kick and blast of firing a .357 Magnum in a (probably darkened) room. You may have a similar situation (e.g. retail store defense) where injury to third parties is of concern, and you'll likely be facing an assailant at extremely close range where the Glaser's inaccuracy and inability to penetrate cover will not be drawbacks. In these narrowly defined scenarios, the Glaser is a good choice, but keep a couple of speedloaders of hollowpoints handy, just in case. I do. Glaser Safety Slugs are available in "Blue" or "Silver" versions. The latter are a little heavier for better penetration, but performance is similar. I would be happy with either, but Sanow prefers the Silver. It's up to you. Mag-Safes are imitations of Glasers, and I cannot recommend them due to poor quality control. Reliability is the number one requirement of a self-defense handgun, and Mag-Safes don't make the grade. GECO "Blitz Action Trauma" or BAT 9mm rounds from Germany are a proven design. Called the "GECO Action Safety" in Europe, this is a high velocity (1400 feet per second) lightweight (86 grain) hollow bullet that has proven itself to be very reliable and successful on the street. I recommend them, but they are very tough to find. Save yourself the trouble and use a good American-made hollowpoint. Other exotics are best avoided. You may occasionally encounter "Thunderzaps," "Omni-Shocks," "Terminators," "Annihilators," "Kaswer Law Grabbers," and other such marginalia in gun shops. Stay away. If you want to gamble, go to an Indian reservation. Don't gamble with your life, or the lives of others. Glasers and GECO 9mm BATs are the only proven exotics. Terminology I have tried to keep specialized technical jargon to a minimum, but it will be helpful for you to understand a few terms and acronyms: - 'Ball' is round-nosed metal jacketed ammunition. It is used for self-loading firearms like pistols. All military pistol and rifle ammunition uses full metal jacket bullets. Synonyms for ball include FMJ ("full metal jacket"), MC ("metal case") and TMJ ("totally metal jacketed," a term used only by the ammunition maker CCI). Ball rounds do not expand and are always the worst choice in a defensive round. The military uses ball because it feeds well (i.e. rarely jams), penetrates far, and the military is required to use ball under the Geneva Convention. Fortunately, you are free to choose better ammunition, and should use ball for practice only. - 'Wadcutters' and 'semi-wadcutters' are sharp-shouldered revolver bullets with an odd cylindrical appearance. True wadcutters are very weak rounds used for target shooting only. Unless you own a .38 or .357 revolver, forget about these. - 'Jacketed soft-points' are jacketed bullets with exposed lead at the tip. These make poor defensive rounds for handguns but may be effective for rifles, due to the latter's high velocity. Never use JSP rounds in a handgun for self-defense. Never. - 'Jacketed hollowpoints' are the best choice for handguns and most rifles. JHP rounds have a hollow cavity in the nose and usually expand (and stop) in the body of your attacker, transferring all their kinetic energy for maximum stopping power. They are the safest and best bullets available. JHP bullets are always best for self-defense. -'Round-nose lead' (or RNL) are generally revolver bullets without any metal jacket around the bullet. These are worthless for self-defense, and I don't even use them at the range. If you come upon a bargain lot of RNL ammo, feel free to buy it for target practice. You will be scrubbing out your barel until the wee hours, however, as all-lead bullets scum up barrels something fierce. Use 'Flitz' metal polish to scour out the grimy residue. HANDGUN AMMUNITION BY CALIBER (Note: for an excellent and comprehensive look at the best handgun rounds by caliber, see the article 'What Are The Best Loads For Defense?' by Ed Sanow in the July, 1995 issue of Petersen's 'HANDGUNS' magazine) .22 Long Rifle You should really be using something bigger than a .22 for self-defense, but even a .22 beats nothing. There are some really nice .22 pocket autos, and they make a lot of sense for women reluctant to tote a bigger gun around. Choose any Federal, Remington, Winchester or CCI copper-plated 37 grain (or lighter) high velocity hollowpoint round. I recommend CCI "Stinger" 32-gr. or Remington "Yellow Jacket" 33-gr. hollowpoints, as they have been very reliable in my Beretta 21A and Walther TPH pistols and have the highest stopping power ratings. Shoot a lot of rounds through your self-defense .22, the ammo is cheap and you want to be sure to pick a reliable round. If high-velocity solids don't cycle reliably try standard-velocity. There is little difference in power but it may improve your gun's reliability (e.g. Jennings J-22 pistols are more reliable with standard-velocity solids). Marksmanship is crucial with such a tiny gun, so practice drawing your .22 and firing it rapidly into a melon at ten feet or so. Also keep your .22 autoloader meticulously clean - these tiny guns cannot function reliably with much gunk in them. If you carry your .22 in a pocket, purse or ankle holster inspect it daily and brush off any dust or grit with an old toothbrush. Lubricate it properly, too. This is very important. .25 ACP (6.35mm) The best .25 load is the Hornady 35-gr. XTP-HP round. If it jams, use any Federal, Remington, or Winchester 50 grain ball round. Winchester has an odd 45 gr. "Expanding Point" round that should be OK if it is reliable in your gun (it seems to work fine in Beretta 950 pistols, for example), but don't expect any improvement in performance over the 50 grain ball rounds. The excellent Walther TPH .25 should be loaded with ball. The Hornady 35 grain JHP should be considered only if it is 100% reliable in your pistol - fire 200 rounds through your gun to see. Ed Sanow recommends the MagSafe 22 grain "Defender" and Glaser 40 grain Safety Slug. .32 ACP (7.65 mm Browning, 7.65x17mm) Use the Winchester 60 gr. Silvertip Jacketed Hollow Point (X32ASHP) if it is reliable in your gun. I personally would only carry Silvertips in a Seecamp LWS .32. Most of the common .32 autos on the market are only reliable with 71 grain ball: Llama, Walther PP and PPK, Czech CZ-24 and CZ-70, Davis P-32, Colt Pocket Model, Mauser HSc, etc. .32 Smith & Wesson Long The best defense load for this obsolescent revolver caliber is the Federal 98 gr. lead wadcutter (32LA). Shoot carefully. .32 H&R Magnum Federal 85 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (C32HRB). 7.62x25mm (a.k.a. 7.63mm Mauser) If you're using this obsolescent communist caliber I can only assume that you have an old CZ-52 or Chinese Tokarev. Only 87 gr. ball ammo is available, so leave the cheap Chinese military stuff for practice and carry Fiocchi 7.63 Mauser ball in your gun. .380 ACP (9mm Short, 9x17mm, 9mm Kurz) Now we're getting into some decent stopping power. The three or four best .380 JHP rounds have better stopping power than ANY bullet fired out of 2" barrel .38 Special snub-nose. All of the Big Five make good hollowpoints for this caliber. The Remington 88 grain JHP is the most reliably-feeding hollowpoint but slightly less effective than the Hydra-shok or Cor-Bon. Reliability is crucial, and thus you must test the rounds before carrying. I recommend the following two cartridges above all others: -Federal 90 gr. Hydra-shok (P380HS1 H) - the best standard-pressure .380 JHP load, period. -Cor-Bon 90 gr. JHP - the most powerful .380 hollowpoint, bar none. These are the two best .380 loads, and I recommend them for these guns: SIG/Sauer P230, Beretta 84/85, Browning BDA, CZ-83, H&K P7K3, Walther PPK and PPK/s. The Russian, East German, Chinese and Bulgarian Makarov pistols are apparently perfectly reliable with the hot Cor-Bon, and the strong all-steel construction of these guns should stand up to an infinite amount of these potent rounds. I have heard that the Colt does also well with the hot Cor-Bon JHP, which you should definitely look into if you own a Colt .380. You have better stopping power than any .38 snub-nose revolver (the long-time favorite concealment sidearm) when you load your .380 with these two rounds. Other good .380 ACP jacketed hollowpoints: - Remington 102 gr. Golden Saber BJHP (GS380M) - Another excellent .380 load (the BJHP stands for "Brass Jacketed Hollow Point"), the heaviest one available. I prefer the Cor-Bon and Hydra-shok, but many (including Sanow) like this new Remington round for its deeper penetration. I'll stick with the Cor-Bon and Hydra-shok, but the choice is yours. - CCI-Speer 90 gr. Gold Dot JHP A good all-around hollowpoint. - Remington 88 gr. JHP (R380AI): A good high-velocity hollowpoint that feeds well in: Colt Government Model .380, H&K HK4, Taurus PT-58, older PP and PPK, Bersa .380, Beretta 70s, Makarov and Hungarian FEG. These are all good guns that might choke on other hollowpoints but they will probably feed the Remington fine. This hollowpoint was redesigned in 1993 and gives excellent performance while retaining its rounded shape for positive feeding. If your .380 chokes on other JHP loads, try fifty rounds of the Remington 88 gr. through your gun and see if it improves. .380 ACP hollowpoints to avoid: -Winchester 85 gr Silvertip (X380ASHP) I really cannot recommend this weak and jam-prone round. It works reliably in a few modern European guns (e.g. SIG 230, Beretta 84F), but every load named above offers better performance. The Silvertip will likely jam in any American-made .380 automatic. Russian .380 Makarovs and PPK series guns may jam with the Silvertip, as well. The .380 Silvertip was once state-of-the-art, but has since been superceded by superior designs. It is also quite expensive. Look elsewhere. - PMC-Eldorado Starfire 95 gr. JHP This round is similarly weak and jam-prone. - Federal 90 gr. JHP (380BP) (see below) - Hornady 90 gr. XTP-HP (9010) Both the Federal 380BP and the Hornady XTP-HP never expand and may jam many guns due to their truncated-cone bullet nose profiles. Pass by these two. 95 gr ball: Davis P-380, Accu-Tek, EAA .380, Tanarmi, AMT/OMC/TDE "Back-Up," Heritage, FIE, Jennings, Bryco, Lorcin, Llama, or "other." Hollowpoints should never be used in these low-priced guns. 9mm Makarov (9x18mm) -Cor-Bon makes an excellent 95 grain JHP that is totally reliable in all East Bloc pistols. -Hornady offers a 95 grain JHP/XTP (#91002). .38 Special Loads for Full-Sized .38 Revolvers With 4" or Longer Barrels: The Numero Uno .38 Special defense load for your 4" barrel revolver is the Cor-Bon .38 Special+P 125 grain JHP. It is a very high-pressure load and should be used only in modern six-shot revolvers. It has less felt recoil and muzzle flip than the #2 choice, which follows. When I carry a 4" .38, I want it loaded with this cartridge. The second-best choice is the .38 Special +P 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint (LSWCHP) available from Federal, CCI, Winchester and Remington. Ayoob has found the latter to have the greatest expansion, so I would choose Remington (catalog #R38S12). This unjacketed all-lead round (often called the "FBI load" or "Chicago load") is a proven manstopper when fired from a 4" barrel. Your fixed-sight .38 revolver it will usually shoot to point-of-aim with this load; lighter bullets will normally shoot low (some very low). All fixed-sight .38s are regulated at the factory to shoot accurately with standard velocity 158 grain bullets, as this was the weight of the long-time standard American and Canadian police load. * Federal makes the FBI load in their Nyclad line covered with a thin Nylon jacket to prevent leading (#P38G). This is now a police only load. The all-lead version is #38G. * CCI offers the famous FBI load in their economical aluminum-cased Blazer line (#3523). This is a bargain. What I really recommend, however, is that for practice you use the CCI Blazer 158 grain JACKETED hollowpoint (#3526) because it duplicates the ballistics and recoil of the FBI load without fouling your barrel with hard-to-scrub-out lead deposits. These are a bitch to clean (I use 'Flitz' metal polish with good results. It will also remove unsightly "burn rings" from the cylinder face of your stainless-steel revolver). Note: .38 Special ammunition is loaded to two pressure levels: standard pressure and +P. Standard pressure loads may be used in any .38 Special revolver, but +P loads should be fired extensively only in steel-frame .38 Special revolvers. Firing a few (under fifty) +P loads in your aluminum-framed .38 Special revolver will not destroy it or cause it to explode, but will damage your aluminum-framed revolver if you fire more than a hundred rounds. The main problem with carrying +P .38 Special loads in an aluminum-framed .38 Special revolver is that the kick is nasty and slows repeat shots. Thus I recommend standard pressure ammunition for aluminum-framed .38 Special revolvers, as it is much easier to score fast hits. Other .38 Special Loads for Your 4" Barrel Revolver: IMI-Samson also offers a lightweight, very high pressure load, the 110 gr. +P+ JHP. This is said to be a ballistic duplicate of the law-enforcement-only "Treasury" load that T-men used to carry. Who cares? The Cor-Bon 125 gr. +P load is superior. And never use any 147 grain bullet in any caliber. They are cursed. All major manufacturers catalog light .38 +P hollowpoints, from 95-129 grains. None of these are as successful as the Cor-Bon .38 Special +P 125 grain JHP or 158 grain +P LSWCHP, so why carry them? Light +P loads only make sense in a 2" barrel snub (more on this later). The Federal Hydra-shok and Winchester Silvertip may look cool, but the boring-looking Cor-Bon and FBI loads do the job in a 4" revolver. Stick with them. PMC makes a bizarre 66 grain tubular hollow bullet load. Some enthusiastic gun-shop salesman may try to sell it to you. Refuse politely. Also avoid the Remington 95 grain +P SJHP (R38S1) due to inadequate penetration. The Glaser Safety Slug is a good choice for self-defense in a .38 revolver of any barrel length (see caveats under "exotic ammunition," above). It is crucial to keep the chambers and frame interior absolutely free of oil or solvents when carrying Glasers, as you don't want any Breakfree CLP or Hoppe's #9 solvent seeping into the primer pocket and deactivating the round. This is important for all rounds, of course, but the Glaser isn't known for particularly good sealing against such mishaps. You may also want to consider carrying two Glasers as the first rounds to be fired, and JHP loads for the rest. This gives you a bit of insurance if your assailant tucks himself behind a sheet rock wall or doorway or some other flimsy cover that JHP rounds can blast through. A Special Note on Snub-Nose .38 Revolvers With 2" or 3" Barrels: The Cor-Bon .38 Special +P 125 grain JHP and 158 grain LSWCHP FBI load are not the best choice for 2" or 3" barrel revolvers. The short barrel does not provide enough velocity to ensure reliable expansion with these load, and the unpleasant and hard-to-control recoil hurts snub-nose accuracy (as well as your hand). Controllability is crucial, and I recommend non +P standard pressure loads, for the .38 snub-nose. Good +P choices for a steel-frame 2" .38 snub-nose revolver are: * Federal 125 grain +P Nyclad LSWHP (P38N) - my preferred .38 2" barrel snub-nose revolver load (a.k.a. the "Chief's Special" load, now available only to the police). * Federal 129 grain +P Hydra-shok JHP (P38HS1) * Remington 125 grain +P Golden Saber HPJ (GS38SB) * Cor-Bon 110 grain +P JHP - I would recommend this high-pressure load only for the sturdy (and heavy) Ruger SP101 snub-nose .38 or .357 Magnum revolver. Standard Pressure (non +P) Loads. If you carry an aluminum-frame snub nose .38 (e.g. S&W Model 38 Bodyguard, 642, 442, 37, or Colt Cobra) I urge you to carry a standard pressure (non +P) .38 round. The best standard pressure .38 load is the Federal 125 grain Nyclad lead hollowpoint (P38M). This P38M hollowpoint - known as the "Chief's Special load" - was specifically designed to expand at lower velocities and is the industry leader in standard pressure .38 rounds. This load is now available to police departments only. Another acceptable standard pressure .38 load is the Winchester Silvertip 110 grain JHP (X38S9HP). A third possibility is the Federal Low Recoil Personal Defense 110 grain Hydra-Shok JHP load (PD38HS3 H) Note well: if you have a J-frame Smith & Wesson snub-nose .38 (i.e. the five-shot Model 36/37 Chief's Special, Model 38/49/649 Bodyguard, the 640/642/442/940 Centennial) you can greatly improve the controllability of your gun by installing Uncle Mike's "Boot Grip." This is a $14 godsend. The skinny little wooden grips that come on these guns are worthless. Installing good grips does wonders for your ability to control your .38 snub-nose revolver in rapid fire for more hits. 9mm Parabellum (9mm Luger,9x19mm, 9mm NATO, or simply "9mm") This is unquestionably the world's most popular pistol round. For this reason it has been the subject of a lot of experimentation, because 9mm ball - used by every army in the Western world - is a mediocre manstopper. Jacketed hollowpoints are a must if one wishes to rely on the 9mm as a defense round. Use ball ammo for practice only. 9mm ammunition is available in two pressure levels: standard and "+P." The latter should only be used in newer guns (made since 1985 or so), and is best used sparingly. I will deal here with only commercially available ammunition: there are specialized loads available only to law enforcement personnel. Civilians should not worry, as there are commercial loads as good or better than anything restricted to law enforcement usage. I will now tell you the best 9mm Luger load for self-defense: it is the Cor-Bon 9mm 115 grain +P Jacketed Hollowpoint. This is the most powerful and street-proven manstopper available in this caliber. It is a high velocity (1340 fps) and high pressure round, and more effective than any load restricted to law enforcement use (such as the Federal 9BPLE). Unfortunately, it is also likely to jam many older guns. For this reason I add a table at the end of the 9mm section discussing round suitability for different guns. Modern hollowpoints may either (a) jam, or (b) be too powerful for some older guns. This load is suitable only for First Class pistols (see table). The best standard pressure 9mm load is the Federal 115 grain JHP (9BP). Its effectiveness and accuracy make it the world standard. Buy several boxes. Other excellent standard pressure 9mm loads are the Winchester Silvertip 115 grain (X9MMSHP), and Federal 124 grain Hydra-shok (P9HS1). For guns that may jam with the Cor-Bon or Federal 115 grain hollow-points, the Remington 115 grain +P JHP is a good choice (R9MM6). For older guns I would use the Remington standard pressure 115 gr. JHP (R9MM1). Now it is time to impart some crucial information: NEVER use 147 grain ammo in a 9mm pistol! There was a stupid fad for 147 grain hollowpoints a few years ago, and many were suckered into buying these weak, worthless and malfunction-prone rounds. I don't care what you've heard: never use any 9mm hollowpoint heavier than 125 grains. 147 grain hollowpoints often jam in many popular 9mm guns like the Browning Hi-Power, SIG, Beretta 92, S&W and Glock. Ignore the gun magazine hype and stick to what works. If you want to gamble, go to Reno. Don't gamble with your life. 147 grain ammo sucks. Bad 9mm Loads to avoid (and certainly NEVER carry). Numbers given: Federal Gold Medal 9mm 147 grain JHP (9MS) Federal Hydra-Shok 9mm 147 grain JHP (P9HS2) Winchester 147 grain 9mm Silvertip Subsonic JHP (X9MMST147) Winchester 147 grain 9mm Super-X Subsonic (XSUB9MM) Remington 147 grain 9mm JHP (R9MM8) Remington 147 grain 9mm Golden Saber JHP (GS9MMC) Remington 140 grain 9mm JHP (R9MM7) Remington 88 grain 9mm JHP (R9MM5) This bullet is far too light. CCI Lawman 147 grain 9mm PHP "Plated Hollow Point" (3619) Table Of 9mm Pistols. (Note: just because your pistol appears in Class 3, say, doesn't mean it is unreliable: it may indeed feed hollowpoints. But you must fire at least 200 rounds of your chosen JHP carry load to determine if your pistol will feed them properly. I have placed pistols in each category according to reputation and experience. These are only meant as guidelines - your pistol may feed JHP rounds better - or worse - than this table indicates) First Class pistols are ultra-reliable and high-quality new guns than can feed any hollowpoint and tolerate +P loads with no problems: SIG/Sauer P220 series. Czech CZ75 and CZ85. Walther P5, P5C, and P88. Heckler and Koch USP and P7 series. All Glocks. All Ruger 9mm pistols. Taurus PT-99, PT-92 and PT-92C. Steyr GB. Beretta 92 series. Browning BDM and Hi-Power (if it says "Portugal" on the slide). All Smith & Wessons with a four-digit model number (e.g. 5906, 3913, 6904, 5903) and the Smith & Wesson 900 series. Star M28, M30, M31, and all Firestars, Megastars, and Ultrastars. Second Class pistols are high quality guns that may not feed all hollowpoints reliably. Remington 115 gr. hollowpoints are recommended for these guns: Smith & Wessons with two or three digit model numbers (e.g. 659, 39-2, 469, 59, 39). Heckler and Koch VP70 and P9S. Beretta "Brigadier" M1951 and the Egyptian copy, the Interarms "Helwan." Colt M2000 "All-American" (now discontinued, for good reason), Colt Series 70 Government Model, Series 70 Commander. Astra A-70, A-75 and A-100. AMT "On Duty." Daewoo. Bersa 'Thunder 9'. EAA Witness, and all other CZ-75 copies (e.g. Tanfoglio, Tanarmi, Springfield Armory P9). Taurus PT-908. Walther P4. Star BK, BKM, Model B and 'Super.' Browning Hi-Powers without the word "Portugal" on the slide. Llama Model 82. IMI "Jericho" and "Kareen." Third Class pistols should generally be loaded with ball for best reliability - experiment with your gun extensively before carrying JHP: Walther P38, P4 or P1. Luger. Llama. Maverick. MKS Model JS. Intratec CAT-9, DC-9, KG-9, etc. SWD Cobray Model 11/9 and similar models. Scarab Scorpion. Kimel AP-9. Bryco Jennings Model 59. All KBI Hungarian pistols (e.g. GKK, PJ9C, P9HK and other "FEG" products). "Norinco" or "Sportarms" Chinese Tokarev pistols. Lahti. Radom. MAB P15 and Model 1950. .38 Super Cor-Bon, Winchester and Remington all make good jacketed hollow-points in .38 Super. I like the Cor-Bon 115 and 124 grain hollowpoints the best. The Remington will feed more smoothly in many guns, however, especially Colts and Colt M1911A1 copies like the Springfield Armory and Auto-Ordnance. The Llama .38 Super tends to jam with anything except ball. .357 Magnum The most effective handgun round on the market - regardless of caliber - is the Federal .357 Magnum 125 grain jacketed hollowpoint (357B). This load has more stopping power than any other handgun bullet (and this includes more powerful rounds like the .41 and .44 Magnums). I advise all experienced revolver men to carry the legendary Federal 357B in a .357 revolver, or the equally good Remington full-power 125 grain semi-jacketed hollowpoint (R357M1). There is one caveat, however. The 357B and other full-power .357 Magnums have a lot of blast and kick. If you are not comfortable with the buck and roar of full-house .357 Magnums, I would strongly suggest that you use a lower-recoil round. Controllability is important, and you will be able to fire lower-recoil rounds more rapidly and accurately. All of these .357 loads have excellent stopping power, so don't worry that you are giving up too much. In descending order of severity of recoil (i.e. the Silvertip kicks the most) I recommend the Winchester Silvertip 145 grain JHP (X357SHP), The Remington Golden Saber 125 grain JHP (GS357MA), Federal 110 gr. JHP (357D), Remington Medium Velocity 125 grain Semi-Jacketed Hollowpoint (R357M11) and the Cor-Bon 110 grain JHP. The latter two are excellent rounds I strongly recommend for .357 Magnum 2.5" and 3" barrel snub-nose revolvers like the S&W Models 66, 19, 65, 13, the Colt King Cobra, the Ruger GP100 and especially the small-frame Ruger SP101. If you still find that your .357 kicks too much, carry the Cor-Bon .38 Special+P 110 grain JHP discussed above. Two or three hits with good .38+P slugs beat any number of misses with .357 slugs. Note well: if you are using the factory wood stocks on your S&W or Taurus .357 revolver, you should try a set of rubber replacement grips. Ruger and Colt .357 Magnums come factory-equipped with recoil-absorbing ergodynamic rubber grips, and I have no idea why S&W and Taurus continue to put wood grips on their .357 revolvers. The difference in control is enormous. Get some good, compact rubber grips from Uncle Mike's or Pachmayr and slap them onto your .357 revolver ASAP. I used to cringe every time I fired a full-power load in my .357 Magnum snub-nose. Once I put some compact Pachmayr grips on it, however, I had no problem firing the 357B accurately and rapidly. These grips only cost twenty bucks. Buy some.) Other good .357 Magnum loads. The 125 grain jacketed hollowpoints by Cor-Bon, Winchester, and CCI are all good stoppers. The CCI Blazer 125 grain jacketed hollow-point is a very good buy, both for practice and self-defense use. The 110 grain jacketed hollowpoints by Winchester, CCI and Remington are all good for use in snub-nose revolvers, or for those sensitive to recoil. You never go wrong with a 110-125 grain .357 jacketed hollowpoint from the Big Five. All are great stoppers. Crappy .357 Magnum loads you should not carry for self-defense. Never carry soft-points, semi-wadcutters, or any of the 158 grain or 180 grain jacketed hollowpoints - these are solely for hunting or target use. Stick to jacketed hollowpoints under 150 grains in weight. The heavier bullets kick heavily and will shoot high and confuse you. All-lead bullets are okay for practice but you will have to spend twice as long cleaning your gun. .357 SIG I am unsure what advantage this caliber is supposed to have over the .40 S&W, but it is a good stopper. .357 SIG ballistics are quite impressive. Suggested loads: -Federal 125 grain jacketed hollowpoint (P357S1) -Hornady 124 grain JHP/XTP (#9130) -Remington 125 grain JHP (R357S1). .40 Smith & Wesson This caliber has established an excellent track record on the street. Smith & Wesson and Winchester really did their research when they invented the .40 S&W. Your choice comes down to either the 180 grain jacketed hollowpoints or the 135-155 grain jacketed hollowpoints by Cor-Bon, Winchester, Federal, CCI or Remington. All are good stoppers, but the lighter weight bullets have the best stopping power records on the streets. The real-world shooting database clearly favors the lighter 135-155 gr. JHP loads. I personally would carry the potent Cor-Bon 135 or 150 grain jacketed hollowpoint or the Winchester Silvertip 155 grain jacketed hollowpoint (X40SWSTHP). The 135-155 grain JHP kicks less and has higher kinetic energy and stopping power than the 180 gr. JHP loads. The 135 gr. JHP appears to be a real stopper. In short, you cannot go wrong with the .40 S&W - unless you carry ball. Choose a good hollowpoint and stick with it. Leave the ball for practice (the CCI Blazer 180 grain TMJ is a good inexpensive practice round). 10mm Auto The 10mm is not living up to expectations. It was thought to be the ne plus ultra of pistol rounds when introduced in the late 1980's, but hasn't turned out to be superior to the better 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP jacketed hollowpoints. This isn't to say that the 10mm Auto sucks - it is a fine stopper. It's just that we hoped for so much more. 10mm Auto ammunition is available in two power levels, "full-house" and "medium velocity," as used by the FBI (sometimes called "10mm Lite"). The "full-house" loads should be left for hunting use: they kick heavily, blow right through assailants, and are very hard on your gun. Stick to the medium velocity ammo. I would pick the Cor-Bon 135 grain Nosler JHP, Federal 155 grain JHP (10E), or Federal Hydra-shok 155 gr. JHP (P40HS2). The "FBI load" is the 180 grain subsonic JHP, and Federal, Winchester, and Remington all produce good ones. Take your pick, but you are silly to ignore the superior real-world performance of the lighter 135-155 grain jacketed hollowpoints. The potent Winchester Silvertip 175 grain JHP (X10MMSTHP) is close in power to the "full-house" loads, and may be a good choice for an experienced shooter who is used to heavy recoil. I personally would only carry the Silvertip or "full-house" loads in the field, where I might have to shoot big, cranky animals that seem interested in munching on my bodily parts. In this role the 10mm auto excels. .41 Magnum The best defense choice for this hard-kicking caliber is the Winchester Silvertip 175 grain JHP (X41MSTHP2). The Remington 170 grain Semi-Jacketed Hollowpoint (R41MG3) is also a good round. .44 Special By far the best choice for your .44 Special revolver is the Cor-Bon 180 grain JHP. Glasers or the Winchester Silvertip 200 grain JHP (X44STHPS2) are also good rounds, particularly for any 5-shot .44 revolver. .44 Magnum The blast and kick of this powerful caliber make it less than optimum for defense use, despite what you have seen in the movies. Cor-Bon's 180 grain or Federal's 180 grain (44B) medium-velocity JHP are the hands-down choices in this caliber. Glasers, the Winchester Silvertip 210 grain JHP (X44MSTHP2) or the Federal 240 grain Hydra-shok (P44HS1) are also acceptable choices. .45 ACP (occassionally called "11.43x23mm" by some silly Europeans) The .45 ACP is a recognized manstopper, and there are many excellent loads in this caliber. Some of the best: - Federal 230 grain Hydrashok JHP (P45HS1): a great load, and my #1 choice. It gives the most stopping power in this potent caliber. - Federal 185 grain JHP (45C) another top-notch load from Federal. I would choose this round for a compact, short-barrelled .45 like the Colt Officer's ACP or the S&W 4516. It has lighter recoil than the Hydrashok or CCI 200 JHP, and its higher velocity makes it more likely to expand out of a short 3.5" barrel. - Cor-Bon 185 grain Sierra JHP - CCI Lawman 200 gr. JHP (3965). a.k.a. the "Inspector" or "Flying Ashtray." - CCI Blazer 200 gr. JHP (3568). The "Flying Ashtray" in an economical aluminum case. Both of these CCI loads use a wide-mouth hollowpoint bullet that may jam some guns. It is 100% reliable in newer guns like the current production "enhanced" Colt 1911A1, the SIG/Sauer P220, Star M45 Firestar and Megastar, and all Smith & Wesson, Para-Ordnance, and Ruger .45 automatics and the Smith & Wesson Model 625 revolver. (Note well: if you are one of those knuckleheads who install light springs in your gun to get a lighter trigger pull you are asking for trouble. Never use CCI ammo in such a gun, as CCI uses especially hard primers and your hammer might not be able to detonate the round reliably, now that you have monkeyed with it.) - Remington 185 grain JHP (R45AP2). This is the best choice for older guns that may jam with other hollow-points. I would select this load for the Heckler and Koch P9S, Browning BDA, Springfield Armory, AMT and Thompson M1911A1, Llama, Star PD, etc. - Cor-Bon and Remington .45+P 185 grain JHP (R45AP6). These are very powerful and hard-kicking rounds best left to the experienced shooter. They are pretty hard on your gun, especially an aluminum-framed pistol like the SIG/Sauer P220 or Colt Lightweight Commander. If you are sufficiently expert to confidently carry the .45+P you certainly don't need my advice on load selection. That being said, these +P rounds are second only to the famed Hydra-shok in stopping power. They really sledgehammer the bad guys down. Other good .45 ACP loads. The Winchester Silvertip 185 grain JHP (X45ASHP2), CCI Gold Dot and Remington Golden Saber (GS45APB) are all good choices. If you like them, fine, but they have no edge over loads mentioned above. I say stick to the tried and true. Ball. Save the 230 grain ball (FMJ) loads for practice; carry FMJ ammo only if you must because your gun jams with hollowpoints. The Llama, Federal Ordnance, AMT, and Auto-Ordnance M1911A1 copies often jam with anything except 230 grain ball. Never compromise when it comes to reliability: if your gun only feeds ball, then ball is what you carry. .45 Colt I hope your self-defense .45 Colt is a good double-action design like the Smith & Wesson Model 25 and not some single-action hunting gun. Load your revolver with the Cor-Bon 200 grain JHP. The Federal 225 gr. Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollowpoint (45LCA) or Winchester 225 gr. Silvertip JHP (X45CSHP2) are also good. SHOTGUN AMMUNITION BY CALIBER (Gauge) The shotgun is the ne plus ultra of manstoppers. No doubt you have heard a lot of nonsense about the lethality of "assault rifles" and "sub-machine guns" and the like. The fact is that the shotgun is the most effective firearm for short-range personal defense. For example: an Uzi or Heckler & Koch sub-machine gun has about 340 ft-lbs. of impact energy - a 12 gauge shotgun has 2500 to 3100 ft-lbs. of impact energy. The shotgun is not a magic weapon that will slay all foes. Like all other guns, it must be aimed at a specific target. Buckshot loads will not "sweep" a room. "Close" still only counts in horseshoes. Aim your shotgun from the shoulder (like a rifle) if you intend to hit an aggressor. I invoke the Ascended Master, Massad Ayoob: "It is perhaps the most efficient close-range killing machine in the world's arsenal of small arms." For a discussion of the shotgun's strengths and weaknesses I refer all interested parties to Ayoob's excellent and comprehensive book 'The Truth About Self-Protection' (truly the best $8.95 investment you'll ever make), which discusses every element of self-defense from locks, chemical sprays and alarms to defensive driving, firearms and defending yourself against dogs. A more in-depth treatment of the issue may be found in Ayoob's book-length volume on shotgun technique, 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun'. A Note On Terminology Shotgun ammunition falls into three general categories: BUCKSHOT - shell loaded with large-diameter lead balls (.24" and up) used for big game hunting and self-defense. The number of pellets in 12 gauge buck-shot varies from eight .36" balls in "000 buck" to 27 .24" pellets in "#4 buck". Buckshot ratings are archaic and hard to understand (as are shotgun specifications and ammunition in general), but thankfully there isn't much you need to learn. Simply write down the recommended loads, walk into your local gunshop and announce your desired ammunition (note that "00" is pronounced "double ought" and "000" is pronounced "triple ought." Don't say "zero zero" or "oh-oh-oh buckshot" in front of gunshop employees. Then practice with both your selected defense load and low-cost birdshot to fully familiarize yourself with the operation of your gun and its terminal performance (e.g. patterns at various distances, the startling effects of buckshot on ballistic melons). BIRDSHOT- small-diameter pellets used for bird hunting. Its stopping power is poor, except when used at very close range - out to 20-30 feet. For that reason it is not generally recommended, except for home defense use. SLUGS are solid lead bullets for shotgun use. These are big, heavy, fat hunks of soft lead that have enormous stopping power (e.g. a typical 12 gauge slug is .73" caliber and weighs 438 grains - a 9mm bullet is .355" and 115 grains). Slugs must be carefully aimed to be effective. It is important to remember, however, that shotguns must be aimed with shot, too. Do not for a minute think that you can simply point your shot-loaded shotgun at the foe and let loose. Shotguns must be skillfully aimed and fired just like hand-guns and rifles. .410 Gauge None of the above really applies in this weak caliber. The .410 is only a half-way decent manstopper with slugs. Choose the Federal Classic (F412RS) or Winchester Super-X (X41RS5) 1/5 ounce (88 grain) hollowpoint slug. Never use birdshot. American Derringer Corp. has produced an odd buckshot load for the .410 (withthree 000 pellets), and I advise you to ignore it. Lose the .410 and buy a 20 gauge pump shotgun. 20 Gauge The 20 is an excellent self-defense caliber, particularly for those who dislike the recoil of the 12 gauge. I recommend the 20 gauge over the more popular 12 for home defense. Choose the 20 gauge 3" shell Federal "Classic" #2 buckshot (F207-2-5PK) with 18 pellets, or the Winchester "Double XX" Magnum #3 with 24 pellets (X203C3B). If your gun cannot accept 3" shells choose the Remington #3 with 20 pellets (SP20BK5PK-3). All of these loads provide definitive short-range stopping power. I specifically recommend the 20 gauge for women and recoil-sensitive men who dislike the blast and recoil of the 12 gauge. "Delivering roughly the ballistic force of two .44 Magnum rounds at once," comments the knowledgeable Ayoob, the 20 "delivers 75% of the lead for only 50-60% of the recoil". Many police departments have found their officers shoot much more accurately in realistic training exercises with the lighter-kicking but still potent 20 gauge. If you are new to shotgunning and considering getting one for self-defense I strongly urge you to buy the reliable and reasonably-priced "Mossberg 500 Special Purpose" 18.5" barrel 20 gauge pump shotgun (catalog #50451). This tried-and-true workhorse is the standard shotgun of the U.S. Armed Forces and costs a little over $200. You'll be much happier with the lighter-kicking 20 gauge than the 12 gauge version used by the military, and - most importantly - you'll shoot the 20 more accurately and rapidly. For an in-depth look at the 20-versus-12 gauge issue I recommend all shotgun owners (and potential shotgun owners) read 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun' by Massad Ayoob. Perhaps I am beginning to sound like a broken record on the theme of Ayoob's books, but once you've read them you'll understand why I recommend them so highly (and repeatedly). Note: Ayoob dislikes the 20 gauge Remington 870 pump shotgun and recommends you choose the Mossberg 500 in 20 gauge for general self-defense and home-defense use. So do I. For ultra-close range home defense birdshot will do the trick. Choose any #4, BB or larger high brass lead hunting load, and have the balance of the magazine filled with #3 buck in case the birdshot doesn't put them down fast enough. Avoid slug use in 20 gauge; you are better off defending yourself with buckshot. If you must use slugs, pick the Dynamit/Nobel or Federal "Classic" (F203-RS) rifled slugs. Using slugs requires careful aiming and rifle sights: few 20 gauge shotguns have the latter. 16 Gauge The 16 has slipped in popularity with Americans. As a result, no shotguns made specifically for defense are available in 16. If you have a sporting 16, however, it can do double duty as a great defense gun. Choose the Federal "Classic" #1 (F164-1) or the Remington #1 (SP16BK-5PK) buckshot load. 12 Gauge If you simply want to know the best defense load, go out and buy: 12 gauge 2 3/4" shell 00 buckshot. You shall live happily ever after, as this is the most effective man-stopping firearm cartridge yet devised by man. I recommend the Federal "Classic" (F127-00), Winchester Super-X (X12RB5) or Remington Buckshot (SP12BK-5PK00) as the best double-ought buckshot defense rounds. One of these rounds is virtually equal to a nine-round burst from a submachine gun, with every round hitting. Effective shotgun technique, of course, requires that one hits with each shot. Don't think that you can merely point the shotgun in the general direction of your attacker and let fly. Read Ayoob's book 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun' for the low-down on good shotgun skills and then practice, practice, practice. Many experienced shooters prefer #4 or #1 buckshot to 00. I really cannot argue, but Lt. Marshall is on record as stating that 00 is superior, both in penetration and stopping power. Good enough for me, but if you have a #4 or #1 buckshot jones, go ahead (Ayoob favors #1). Stay away from 2 3/4" Magnum or 3" Magnum loads, however - the brutal kick of these rounds makes them a bad choice, and you gain nothing in stopping power over the 2 3/4" standard loads. Controllability is important, and standard 12 gauge shells have quite enough kick as it is. A note on shotgun spread: firing your shotgun does not create a diabolical cone of doom destroying all in its path. If you have a typical defense or "riot" gun with an 18"-20" open-choked "cylinder" barrel, the pellets will spread out about 1" for every yard of range. This means that the spread of pellets fired across a large room (18') will be 6" or so, a circle the size of a coffee cup saucer. At 50 feet, the spread will be the size of a large pizza (16"). Test-fire your shotgun at various ranges, using big white butcher paper targets to get an idea of the pattern you can expect. It is a common misconception that blasting at foes ten feet away will take out two or three of them. The spread at that range is just three inches, so you can see that I meant it when I said that the shotgun must be skillfully aimed and fired just like handguns and rifles. The shotgun is simply more likely to hit - and stop - the attacker. Slugs are potent manstoppers, but have limited application for self-defense. Slugs have ferocious recoil and often over-penetrate. There are special situations where slugs might be preferred over buckshot (e.g. road-blocks, barricaded foes), but if you are interested in such esoterica I again direct you to Ayoob's masterful tome 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun'. This guide is for general civilian readers; policemen, soldiers, and gun enthusiasts should rely on Ayoob's in-depth expertise. Don't be a knucklehead. Stay away from weirdo rounds like rubber buckshot or neoprene slugs. These are riot-control rounds designed for massed police use against violent mobs. Don't rely on such marginalia to save your life. Two things to keep in mind about birdshot. The first is that birdshot is as lethal as buckshot at close range. Don't believe for a second that you can just wound someone with birdshot and he'll go on to live another day. If you aren't justified in killing a man, you aren't justified in wounding him, either. Never "shoot to wound." I once again direct you to read Ayoob's 'In the Gravest Extreme' and learn the truth. The second thing is that birdshot makes a lot of sense for home defense. I keep my home-defense 12 gauge loaded with two #4 birdshot rounds followed by 00 buck. Birdshot is much less likely to penetrate thin interior walls and kill innocent people on the other side, and has lower recoil than buckshot for faster follow-up shots (I live in a thin-walled apartment house, however - if I lived in a solid house with a lot of land around, I would definitely choose buckshot instead). The stopping power of birdshot should not be under-estimated: at ranges out to thirty feet or so, birdshot is virtually a solid column of lead. Choose any #4 or BB high brass lead hunting load. I like the Federal "Classic Lead Hi-Brass" #4 birdshot (HI26-4) and Winchester "Super-X" #4 high brass birdshot (X12-4), but there is little difference between the various choices. Buy whichever you please. If you're a bird hunter, use your favorite hunting shells as long as they are #6 or larger. 10 Gauge Yow. Load your 10 gauge with whatever the hell you want. RIFLE AMMUNITION BY CALIBER Rifles aren't a great choice for most self-defense applications. Quoth Ayoob: "The rifle is not well suited to the sudden, close-quarters deployment and maneuvering that is required of a defensive firearm. On the battlefield, yes. In civilian close combat, no way." Ayoob adds that "the rifle is too bulky for maneuvering through doors and hallways, too long to quickly and surreptitiously pick up when the attacker drops his guard, and too easy for the criminal to take away if the homeowner's attention is diverted." That being said, if all you have is a rifle then a rifle is what you use. Some liberal-infested cities ban handgun ownership (Chicago, New York, Detroit), so you are stuck using shotguns and rifles for home defense. Take some comfort from the fact that rifles have better stopping power, are a strong visual deterrent, and are much easier to hit with than any handgun. On a ranch or farm a rifle may be quite appropriate under certain circumstances today, just as it was on the frontier. Never use ball (FMJ) for self-defense in a rifle. .22 Long Rifle A good .22 autoloading, pump, or lever action rifle like the Ruger 10/22, Marlin Model 60, Remington Model 572, or Marlin Model 39 can do the job when nothing else is available. Use any high-velocity round (I like the CCI Stinger, Remington Yellow Jacket, or CCI "SGB" hunting load, #0058) and fire repeatedly. Multiple hits are crucial with a .22: shoot and shoot and shoot some more. Stay away from the after-market large-capacity magazines made by Ram-Line, Eagle, Hot Lips, etc: these plastic nightmares are unreliable, jam-prone and easily breakable. .22 Magnum (.22 WMR) Any jacketed hollowpoint. Try the Winchester Super-X 40 grain JHP, CCI 'Maxi-Mag' 40 grain HP (0024), or whatever you prefer. .223 Remington (5.56x45mm NATO) This is the standard NATO rifle round and one of the best choices for a self-defense rifle. Many top-notch rifles are (or were) available in this caliber: the Colt AR-15, Ruger Mini-14, Steyr AUG, FN FNC, et cetera. All .223 hollowpoints are good stoppers. I really like the Federal 40 grain P223V high-velocity hollowpoint (formerly called the "Blitz" round). Marshall says this is the #1 urban defense load. It is lighter than other .223 bullets, however, so you'll need to adjust your sights if you carry the P223V (it shoots lower than all other .223 loads). If you want better penetration than the P223V offers, choose any good 55-69 grain hollowpoint from a big name manufacturer (I like Federal). Softpoints offer even greater penetration, probably more than you need. Note: older .223 guns with a 1 in 12" rifling twist shoot more accurately with 55 grain bullets (as they were designed for the old U.S. Army M193 ball round). Newer rifles with a faster 1 in 7" twist (this includes the AR-15A2 and nearly all European models) prefer the heavier 60-70 grain bullets (like the M855/SS109 ball round). Ruger Mini-14 rifles have a 1 in 10" twist and do well with either bullet weight. This is only important at longer ranges. Save the cheapo ball rounds for practice. 7.62x39mm Soviet(7.62 mm Russian Short, 7.62 mm M43 Combloc) Some prefer this East Bloc cartridge to the .223 for defense use. It is an excellent round, most commonly used in SKS and AK-47 derived rifles, as well as the Ruger Mini-30. Use any 123-125 grain softpoint from Cor-Bon, Federal, Winchester, or Remington. PMC makes a good low-priced 125 grain softpoint (PMC762B) you might like if you have a lot of magazines to fill. .30 M1 Carbine Never use ball in your M1 for defense! .30 Carbine ball sucks, but .30 Carbine hollowpoints work very well. Buy the Winchester 110 grain Hollow Soft Point (X30M1) and forsake all others. I mean it. .30-30 Winchester This hoary old round has survived so long for a simple reason: it works. Load your Winchester or Marlin .30-30 lever-action rifle with any hollowpoint - I recommend the Federal 125 grain (3030C). Leave the soft-points for hunting and practice. .308 Winchester (7.62x51mm NATO) This is an excellent rifle cartridge, perhaps the best. Over-penetration is the biggest problem. Use fast opening bullets of 150 grains or less. The Nosler Ballistic Tip, Hornady V-Max, and Remington Accu-Tip are examples of quick-opening bullets that are available in several brands of factory loaded ammunition. 9mm Parabellum Generally the same as for pistols, above. The neat and handy Marlin Camp Carbine is totally reliable with , so use them. Heckler & Koch, Uzi and Colt 9mm carbines will feed anything, so I recommend the Cor-Bon 115 or 124 grain +P JHP, and Remington 115 grain jacketed hollow-points (R9MM1). Any reliable hollowpoint is a good choice in a 9mm carbine, and the long barrel makes for high velocity and effectiveness. .30-06 Springfield This excellent and time-proven cartridge has too many top-notch loads to list. Choose the same bullets mentioned in connection with the .308 Winchester (above). .357 Magnum Follow the guidelines for revolvers, above. The .357 makes an excellent carbine round for urban self-defense in Marlin or Winchester lever-action or Action Arms/Israeli Military Industries "Timber Wolf" .357 pump-action carbines. .44 Magnum Pick any good hollowpoint, using the guidelines for revolvers (above). Don't be tempted to use softpoints; these hunting rounds will blow right through your foe. THE END

REV127 | 08-19-2007 11:36 AM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Quote:
7.62x25mm (a.k.a. 7.63mm Mauser) If you're using this obsolescent communist caliber I can only assume that you have an old CZ-52 or Chinese Tokarev. Only 87 gr. ball ammo is available, so leave the cheap Chinese military stuff for practice and carry Fiocchi 7.63 Mauser ball in your gun.
I do believe this was really based off info handed down from an old, but not a very old, cop. Quote:
Now it is time to impart some crucial information: NEVER use 147 grain ammo in a 9mm pistol! There was a stupid fad for 147 grain hollowpoints a few years ago, and many were suckered into buying these weak, worthless and malfunction-prone rounds. I don't care what you've heard: never use any 9mm hollowpoint heavier than 125 grains. 147 grain hollowpoints often jam in many popular 9mm guns like the Browning Hi-Power, SIG, Beretta 92, S&W and Glock. Ignore the gun magazine hype and stick to what works. If you want to gamble, go to Reno. Don't gamble with your life. 147 grain ammo sucks.
Utter garbage. There are some very good 147's available, especially these days. They cycle fine in my CZ and many other firearms. Any particular load from any particular manufacturer has a chance of not feeding right. My wife's Sub-2000 hates 115gr UMC. Do your own due dilligence, test your carry ammo. Quote:
I cannot recommend them for pistol owners (if you insist on Glasers, carry one in the chamber and load the magazine with a proven hollowpoint. Be aware, however, that the Glaser may not have the power to cycle your slide, and thus you may be carrying a single-shot gun. You can always cycle the slide manually, of course, but this takes time and both hands; two things you may not be able to spare when fighting for your life.
Garbage. Test your ammo. If the ammo doesn't cycle and feed don't carry it, but especially never put it at the top of your mag so you get a malf right out the gate! If anything put it at the bottom. 1 shot stops and single attackers are unusually good luck. If an unreliable load is your Hail Mary, make it your last ditch. At least on your last round your going to drop the mag and hand cycle anyway.

electric-amish | 08-19-2007 12:26 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Rev's words---" If an unreliable load is your Hail Mary, make it your last ditch. At least on your last round your going to drop the mag and hand cycle anyway." INDISPUTABLE!! E-A

Anty Ep | 08-21-2007 10:33 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? re the jeopardy question up there -- Jeff Cooper's Gunsite was the "Orange Gunsite" re 762x25, fiocchi is good, but not real hot. if you want it hot, find some old bulgarian. a lot was floating around bout fourteen years ago, and it was advised not to use in any pistol besides the cz 52 which is super strong. cops said it would perforate level II vests just like that, maybe more, I cant recall the details. did y'all talk about that? but perforating wounds dont "stop" which is the objective of lawfully armed self defense. so go with a fat round like the 45 if you can. that being said, yes, I like the 9 mm, the glock was my first handgun and I love it and have shot a lot of IDPA with it, with a lot better scores than my 1911 attempts. the best shot is the one you land center mass, not the one that misses. something to think about too.

Hivemindgammahydra7 | 08-21-2007 11:10 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? I have a shooting buddy who just retired from the Glendale P.D. and observed me using this round for carry. He told me the department used it for a time but found it to be a poor performer. In one instance a female officer shot a perp running away from her in the butt (she got in big trouble for that, too - failure to comply with established ROE). Long story short, it didn't stop him but trying go through a (too) small bathroom window, did. When they pulled him out and got him to a hospital the bullet was found near his knee and had completely failed to expand. Jimmy was there and saw it and said it could have been reloaded. OTOH, the same line of ammo's +P+ 9mm round (I forget the grain but it was light, real light) worked much differently. Jimmy recounted a raid on a suburban meth lab where he took an MP5 loaded with the lighter, +P+ 9mm. A big Staffordshire inside the premises came running at him and he shot at it reflexively. All the rounds missed but one hit the mutt below the right eye, blew the back off his head off and scattered the contents all over the walls and the ceiling. The dog dropped on contact with round, instantly. "Use the +P+," Jimmy told me, "it really works." So, I did and I do. Quote:
Originally Posted by extremist (Post 687111) http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/...47gr%209mm.jpg The 'T' in 'RA9T' is for Talon, as in Black Talon, which this ammo replaces. The 'Law Enforcement Ammunition' line is there just to impress the easily impressed.

AMforPM | 08-28-2007 08:08 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Great information. My handgun is for mostly inside the home with some window issues possible behind an intruder. Though when I shot regularly I hit the milk jugs fast and well at the distance dad deemed proper for ethical home defense, I'm not positive now or for the wife. We don't shoot enough and are not likely to again. But I think I may load a 3 and 2 with hollowpoint semi wadcutters if heavy clothing and poor placement makes penetration insufficiency an issue. We both can empty the gun well and fast. We added pachmar grips and though our guns are light they are good quality. I'm amazed how well she handles recoil. The 12 ga makes me want to whine and she does not whine a bit. 45s with some loads and grips (we have gone shooting with friends and family to try out different guns) bruise my hand, as did the small frame 44 special, though it was a sweet gun, but getting bruised did not seem to impair my control. But I really really don't want a misplaced shot to go out our window and kill a neighbor. And I do want stopping power.

bl96S5eu | 08-28-2007 08:12 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Quote:
Originally Posted by AMforPM (Post 714419) But I really really don't want a misplaced shot to go out our window and kill a neighbor. And I do want stopping power.
Put on 300 lbs and jump on them when they break into your home.

AMforPM | 08-28-2007 08:41 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? To each his own. :wink:

money matters | 08-29-2007 12:16 AM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahlil Gibran (Post 693565) Attachment 31717 9mm is easily concealed in a pocket while your 44mag is probably in your pickup truck. :dontknow: there is a reason why this thread topic is 9mm
Loaded some 220gr silhouette Sierras recently, Kahlil G. At about max load, these are like a kitten out of my DE. No, it is not a truck gun, it is pretty comforting in a shoulder holster or belt. Not that much heavier than a 5" 1911, but has an honest 100yd range and would sure down a moose at that distance. Your 9mm is a very compact little package, but I have pretty big hands. I like the Officer's ACP, even though it is a tad bigger. I have no use for popguns. The kids like to fire off a few 38sp reloads behind the house from time to time, but aside from a .22LR pistol or two, not much use for anything smaller than a 45auto. I recall reading Massad Ayoob's column about his trip to South Africa. He carried an S&W 4" 629 in a Milt Sparks Summer Special holster iirc. We still have a couple hundred 44sp silvertip HPs I bought for my wife to shoot. She objected to the weight of the N frame as her purse gun; but what can you do? She has a little airweight hammerless 38 and a supply of silvertips. Best 9mm defense rd might just be a .38 Super or .357 Sig. I dunno, I think you buy a Colt 1911a1 in 9mm and get a new slide and 460 Rowland, you might have something. Then, there's the .45 Super. The best 9mm might just be a Walther PPK/S with some hot .380s? If you need a small one, why not go elegante?

thorgrim | 09-01-2007 08:43 PM
Re: Best 9mm defense round? I was looking through a reloading manual and came across a load for 9mm that uses a 95 grain FMJ bullet and pushes it at 1457fps for about 450 ft/lbs of energy. American Eagle 115 grain FMJ rounds are 1160fps and 345ft/lbs for comparison. Any idea how effective a round like this might be? Is it too light? Also this was out of a Lyman manual and compared to some others I looked through at the store today many of their loadings seemed a bit conservative (was looking at 7.62x39 loadings though) so there may be a bit of room for improvement.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:14 AM. |
Page 2 of 2 | < | 1 | 2
Show 30 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright = None use it and Link to GIM