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- - Nickel Iron batteries last forever? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=410085)

BullionCubed | 09-23-2009 11:14 PM
Nickel Iron batteries last forever? http://www.beutilityfree.com/content...age&Itemid=129 Anyone have any experience with these? I was thinking of ordering them. kinda pricey but if they last forever then it would be worth it.

TTAZZMAN | 09-23-2009 11:35 PM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? "kinda pricy" wow.....10 times the price is pretty steep in my book....i could buy and store uncharged lead acid batterys and charge and put them into service for the rest of my life and still be way ahead---rough calculations are it would take me 50-60years to break even compared to a heavy duty trojan brand type battery i think i am reading it right....122ah x 80% effeciency=97ah 12v battery = $1010+175+oil(unknown cost)+freight 143# wonder why they are so expensive?? i would highly recommend Trojan T105 batterys for home systems...IE..6v...225ah...$155...life 4-8yrs

Saul Mine | 09-24-2009 12:21 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Check with boat suppliers. They use a different sort of charging regulator that makes lead-acid batteries last ten years to forever. And for all your portable equipment get Energizer E2 Lithium. Twice the price, 7X the power, and 15 years shelf life!

BullionCubed | 09-24-2009 12:42 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? so you think a lead acid battery discharged fully every day will last 10 years?

TTAZZMAN | 09-24-2009 12:51 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by BullionCubed (Post 1937285) so you think a lead acid battery discharged fully every day will last 10 years?
I use the stated Trojan T105s in my construction equipment...IE ..sissor lifts..boom lifts..etc....they get discharged and recharged 5 work days a week left out in the weather...charged with a dumb charger...rarely watered...typical construction guy abuse......and we have not problems getting at least 5-6 years out of them...one of the reasons they are very comparatively cheap is they are a very common golf cart and construction equipment battery but if your looking for guaranttes/warrentys...you can look to Surrette Batterys...for $1000 you can get around ****800ah***** 10 year warrentte and a expected life of 15-20years... here is a link that includes both battery types... http://sunelec.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7

BullionCubed | 09-24-2009 01:30 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? do you own a lead acid battery factory? LOL Lets see. i can buy batteries that last forever. or stock up on batteries that wear out. finally found some info on them https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...hp?f=14&t=4420

Unclad Lad | 09-24-2009 02:59 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Lets see. i can buy batteries that last forever. or stock up on batteries that wear out.
I did not realize that entropy had been conquered! Now I can start work on the perpetual motion device!

Jimfrancisco | 09-24-2009 10:19 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? They don't last forever. My BO place was in the past equipped with a bank of NiFe batteries from an old submarine, apparently. They died. Even Wikipedia states that they can last for "over 20 years" when continuously under charge. 20 years is not forever.

ShortJohnSilver | 09-24-2009 11:01 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimfrancisco (Post 1937731) They don't last forever. My BO place was in the past equipped with a bank of NiFe batteries from an old submarine, apparently. They died. Even Wikipedia states that they can last for "over 20 years" when continuously under charge. 20 years is not forever.
According to the site, if you change the electrolyte a couple times it can bring them back.

wallew | 09-24-2009 11:46 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? While I don't consider 35 years 'lifetime', it sure beats most of the alternatives. NOT CHEAP. Matter of fact VERY, VERY EXPENSIVE. http://www.relocationspecialists.org/bat/cell.html But given they were designed to be installed ONCE in nuke subs and then used/abused for 35 years... I don't know. Enough of them would light up the night. I've always wondered what 'everyone' with all this electricity is going to do with it? Internet? Down Phones? Down TV/Movies? Down, except you could become your own movie house A/C or heat? Probably down. Find cheaper alternatives? Most communications? Down I guess you could charge up your 40 watt phase shift plasma rifles or something. Unless you are going to be living in a small community, any form of light or electricity will attract unwanted attention. So, if you are going this route, have ways to do a 'emergency shutdown' AND still be able to power up the GE Minigun... just sayin...

TTAZZMAN | 09-24-2009 03:51 PM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by BullionCubed (Post 1937327) do you own a lead acid battery factory? LOL Lets see. i can buy batteries that last forever. or stock up on batteries that wear out. finally found some info on them https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...hp?f=14&t=4420
:) No not at all.....i just use and buy a lot of deep cell batterys....if i could find a better product i would go for it in a heart beat...so i think this is a great thread...and i will soon be in the market for a bank of home storage batterys so i am in this thought process as we speak...weighing the pros/cons/$/life etc To me all your buying with these batterys is a claimed forever battery. It would make a whole lot more sense to me to buy good 10 year lead acid batteries at 1/10th the price and wait for technology to give us a better battery system in the future. even if technology doesnt give us a better battery system i can replace lead acid batterys 10 times before i would see gain from the nickel/iron batteries to me if a person buys these batteries and they dont last forever you or your heirs got screwed twice......once when you bought them...again when/if they die..... on the contrary if you buy lead acid batteries and in the future you cant replace them due to catastrophic colapse then the Nickel/Iron would have been a great deal at any cost im all ears if someone knows a better product or something comming soon

BullionCubed | 09-25-2009 06:16 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimfrancisco (Post 1937731) They don't last forever. My BO place was in the past equipped with a bank of NiFe batteries from an old submarine, apparently. They died. Even Wikipedia states that they can last for "over 20 years" when continuously under charge. 20 years is not forever.
There are original edison cells still working that are 100 years old. i would say if the original ones invented are still working thats as close to forever as you can get. but hey. everything on wikipedia is true, right? Frequently Asked Questions about the Nickel Iron battery in Home Power Systems

S_Goldberg | 09-25-2009 08:16 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? The life on these is a maximum of 30 years in general. They life on your typical renewable energy setup is around 20 years. Why buy batteries that will outlast your renewable setup? When you replace your turbine or solar panels, you will want new batteries and not some 20 year old ones. $1010 for 122Ah @ 12V. There are other options that will cost you less. http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Bat...of%20Batteries Quote:
These are some typical (minimum - maximum) typical expectations for batteries if used in deep cycle service. There are so many variables, such as depth of discharge, maintenance, temperature, how often and how deep cycled, etc. that it is almost impossible to give a fixed number. * Starting: 3-12 months * Marine: 1-6 years * Golf cart: 2-7 years * AGM deep cycle: 4-7 years * Gelled deep cycle: 2-5 years * Deep cycle (L-16 type etc): 4-8 years * Rolls-Surrette premium deep cycle: 7-15 years * Industrial deep cycle (Crown and Rolls 4KS series): 10-20+ years * Telephone (float): 2-20 years. These are usually special purpose "float service", but often appear on the surplus market as "deep cycle". They can vary considerably, depending on age, usage, care, and type. * NiFe (alkaline): 5-35 years * NiCad: 1-20 years

rad | 09-25-2009 08:50 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? In reading that about these batteries they mentioned float oil and I had to look that up: http://rvtravel.com/blog/rvnow/2008/...treatment.html Looks like it works for L-A batteries too.

Professur | 09-25-2009 08:59 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Little in the way of toxins tho. That's a big plus IMO ...

Jimfrancisco | 09-25-2009 03:28 PM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? "I hear the advertisements speak very highly of them", as my Grandfather used to say. Quote:
Originally Posted by BullionCubed (Post 1939388) There are original edison cells still working that are 100 years old. i would say if the original ones invented are still working thats as close to forever as you can get. but hey. everything on wikipedia is true, right? Frequently Asked Questions about the Nickel Iron battery in Home Power Systems

Jimfrancisco | 09-25-2009 03:37 PM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? The company could guarantee them for 70 years for all I care - the company won't be around then for you to get your money back. In fact, like a lot of renewable energy places - they won't even be around in 5 years. People latch on to things, set up a website, then go down. There is a good reason why we no longer use NiFe cells - because they are massively overpriced, and perform poorly. Getting cold out? Whoops, there goes the power, they don't like cold. Leaving home for a while? Welcome home to dead batteries unless you have a good big solar array to charge them. Well, just charge them back up again! Oh, that's going to take a while...

TTAZZMAN | 09-25-2009 04:43 PM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimfrancisco (Post 1940124) The company could guarantee them for 70 years for all I care - the company won't be around then for you to get your money back. In fact, like a lot of renewable energy places - they won't even be around in 5 years. People latch on to things, set up a website, then go down. There is a good reason why we no longer use NiFe cells - because they are massively overpriced, and perform poorly. Getting cold out? Whoops, there goes the power, they don't like cold. Leaving home for a while? Welcome home to dead batteries unless you have a good big solar array to charge them. Well, just charge them back up again! Oh, that's going to take a while...
:111: Jim quit dancing around the subject :5_1_120:i take it your not a fan of Nickel/Iron batterys at any price:biggrin:

Jimfrancisco | 09-25-2009 05:07 PM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Got it in one, TTAZZZMAN. They are useless as batteries unless storeed under perfect conditions. And the price? Jesus shit a brick, are they loading them with gold?

Dave Thomas | 09-25-2009 07:39 PM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? I'd go with Bob Wang before blowing a mint on some hippies that found a supplier: Ni-Fe cell has a positive electrode with nickel hydroxide as active material and a ne- gative electrode made of iron power.NaOH or KOH solution is used as its electrolyte.The electrodes are devided by a separator. and discharge,cheap service price,and etc,it can be used as the DC power for lighting,machine starting,electric locomtive tracting. We welcome OEM orders, if you have any interested in knowing us or cooperate with us,do not hesitate to contact us. Nickel Iron Battery <table class="table1" bordercolordark="#FFFFFF" border="1" bordercolor="#c0c0c0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%" height="147"><tbody><tr> <td width="18%">Principal:</td> <td width="82%">BOB WANG </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Tel:</td> <td>86-756-6668908 </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Fax:</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Email:</td> <td>zhbattery@gmail.com </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Address:</td> <td>Chengfeng Buiding,829# Renmin West Rd., Xiang Zhou Qu </td></tr></tbody></table>

BullionCubed | 09-25-2009 08:44 PM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimfrancisco (Post 1940124) The company could guarantee them for 70 years for all I care - the company won't be around then for you to get your money back. In fact, like a lot of renewable energy places - they won't even be around in 5 years. People latch on to things, set up a website, then go down. There is a good reason why we no longer use NiFe cells - because they are massively overpriced, and perform poorly. Getting cold out? Whoops, there goes the power, they don't like cold. Leaving home for a while? Welcome home to dead batteries unless you have a good big solar array to charge them. Well, just charge them back up again! Oh, that's going to take a while...
Won't be around in 5 years? they have been around for 14 already. if you were to leave home why would the batteries go dead? thats when you're not using much power. I'm betting you have interest in a lead acid battery company or are extremely stupid.

latitude22 | 09-25-2009 08:51 PM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? I use lead acid batteries in my house bank, 6 of the 6 volt golf cart batteries, wired in series and parallel, golf cart batteries have the heaviest plates and they last the longest. When living on the hook we charged and discharged them every day with a $1800 inverter/charger. They lasted 5 years, which is considered pretty good in the boating community. 10 years isn't going to happen if you charge and discharge them on a regular basis with flooded or even agm batteries.

Jimfrancisco | 09-26-2009 05:05 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by BullionCubed (Post 1940533) Won't be around in 5 years? they have been around for 14 already. if you were to leave home why would the batteries go dead? thats when you're not using much power. I'm betting you have interest in a lead acid battery company or are extremely stupid.
No interest in any battery company at all, I'm a chartered Mechanical Engineer. Batteries lose their charge regardless - and I'm betting you have absolutely no understanding of the way an electrical store/discharge system works. I won that bet, because you just proved it.

Jimfrancisco | 09-26-2009 05:11 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by latitude22 (Post 1940543) When living on the hook we charged and discharged them every day with a $1800 inverter/charger. They lasted 5 years, which is considered pretty good in the boating community.
5 years? you must be abusing them. My uncle has a river barge, 4 bed, shower, the whole lot. Built it 17 years ago and the original batteries are still fine. Keep them topped up with water and leccy, they will outlive him...

BullionCubed | 09-26-2009 06:58 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimfrancisco (Post 1941112) No interest in any battery company at all, I'm a chartered Mechanical Engineer. Batteries lose their charge regardless - and I'm betting you have absolutely no understanding of the way an electrical store/discharge system works. I won that bet, because you just proved it.
Actually you just proved you are nothing but a troll. This thread is about nickel-iron batteries, but all you do is try to say lead acid is better with totally illogical arguments.

Jimfrancisco | 09-26-2009 07:41 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Well then, present your arguments! Why is a NiFe battery better than a LA battery? Taking account of the cost, of course...

latitude22 | 09-26-2009 12:04 PM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimfrancisco (Post 1941114) 5 years? you must be abusing them. My uncle has a river barge, 4 bed, shower, the whole lot. Built it 17 years ago and the original batteries are still fine. Keep them topped up with water and leccy, they will outlive him...
Does he live away from shore power and put a load on them EVERY DAY?

S_Goldberg | 09-26-2009 06:02 PM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimfrancisco (Post 1941112) No interest in any battery company at all, I'm a chartered Mechanical Engineer. Batteries lose their charge regardless - and I'm betting you have absolutely no understanding of the way an electrical store/discharge system works. I won that bet, because you just proved it.
Chartered? hmmmm....You in the UK?

BullionCubed | 09-26-2009 08:49 PM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimfrancisco (Post 1941151) Well then, present your arguments! Why is a NiFe battery better than a LA battery? Taking account of the cost, of course...
note the title of this category "Survival Prep Preparing for survival in case things get real bad.." batteries of any type may become really hard to come by in the future. id rather pay more now and be done with it. Nickel iron batteries like to be cycled deeply. they don't degrade unless merley floated. with lead acid the lead plates shed themselves when they are discharged. take any lead acid and discharge it fully every day and see how long it lasts thats why they stopped making nickel iron, they last too long. for starting a car lead acid is great. as long as you dont have accesories running while the car is off the battery lasts a long time because you never discharge the battery deeply.

TheNocturnalEgyptian | 09-26-2009 09:53 PM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimfrancisco (Post 1937731) They don't last forever. My BO place was in the past equipped with a bank of NiFe batteries from an old submarine, apparently. They died. Even Wikipedia states that they can last for "over 20 years" when continuously under charge. 20 years is not forever.
"Under Charge" is the key-word here is because if left uncharged for any amount of time, a layer of sediment builds around the contact plates inside the battery, and they can no longer conduct to the lead acid. I think the build-up is sulfur if memory serves. I must be doing something wrong because I have some power conditioning units, I over see about 1400 4-lb lead acid batteries, and I have to replace them about every three years.

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Mr.Goodbar | 09-26-2009 10:08 PM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 1937875) I don't know. Enough of them would light up the night. I've always wondered what 'everyone' with all this electricity is going to do with it?
Tools. I'm not real knowledgeable about batteries. I have tools and skills to do some pretty valuable work. As of now I have no idea how I'd power em if the utilities went out long term.

Jimfrancisco | 09-27-2009 12:33 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by S_Goldberg (Post 1941750) Chartered? hmmmm....You in the UK?
Chartered in the UK, yes.

Jimfrancisco | 09-27-2009 12:38 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by latitude22 (Post 1941333) Does he live away from shore power and put a load on them EVERY DAY?
He does shore up sometimes, but never connects to shore power - it costs a fortune. So his batteries are charged by the boat engine's alternator, nothing else. And the batteries are constantly loaded by lights, WC macerators, etc.

Jimfrancisco | 09-27-2009 12:45 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNocturnalEgyptian (Post 1942038) "Under Charge" is the key-word here is because if left uncharged for any amount of time, a layer of sediment builds around the contact plates inside the battery, and they can no longer conduct to the lead acid. I think the build-up is sulfur if memory serves. I must be doing something wrong because I have some power conditioning units, I over see about 1400 4-lb lead acid batteries, and I have to replace them about every three years.
Then something is wrong with your charging systems. I oversee a few UPS units, and we replace their batteries every ten years, "just in case". These power server rooms and the associated cooling, so it's crucial that they work.

BullionCubed | 09-27-2009 01:22 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNocturnalEgyptian (Post 1942038) "Under Charge" is the key-word here is because if left uncharged for any amount of time, a layer of sediment builds around the contact plates inside the battery, and they can no longer conduct to the lead acid. I think the build-up is sulfur if memory serves. I must be doing something wrong because I have some power conditioning units, I over see about 1400 4-lb lead acid batteries, and I have to replace them about every three years.
NI-FE batteries are not lead-acid.

ShortJohnSilver | 09-27-2009 01:41 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNocturnalEgyptian (Post 1942038) "Under Charge" is the key-word here is because if left uncharged for any amount of time, a layer of sediment builds around the contact plates inside the battery, and they can no longer conduct to the lead acid. I think the build-up is sulfur if memory serves. I must be doing something wrong because I have some power conditioning units, I over see about 1400 4-lb lead acid batteries, and I have to replace them about every three years.
Have you looked into using a desulphator ? It puts a brief high voltage spike into the battery that is supposed to knock off or cook off the sulphation.

TheNocturnalEgyptian | 09-27-2009 02:18 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by ShortJohnSilver (Post 1942274) Have you looked into using a desulphator ? It puts a brief high voltage spike into the battery that is supposed to knock off or cook off the sulphation.
That's an interesting idea. I think JimFrancisco is right, something is wrong with our system : ) I just over see them - not like I could ever get a budget for chassis replacement... :9536:

Jimfrancisco | 09-27-2009 07:29 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by ShortJohnSilver (Post 1942274) Have you looked into using a desulphator ? It puts a brief high voltage spike into the battery that is supposed to knock off or cook off the sulphation.
I actualy have a car battery charger that does this - and it wasn't even expensive. It has brought back batteries from the dead, when they won't even take a charge from a normal charger. 2 weeks on a 7 amp charger - battery still useless. One week on the fancy charger, it's like new again. Brought back my MGB's battery, which had sat flat for 3 years, when nothing else would. It's like a brand new battery.

Ragnarok | 09-27-2009 10:45 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? FWIW, just my 2c. An off-grid friend of mine uses the Trojan L-16 lead-acid batteries in his solar/generator setup, and has had them last 8-10 years, IF you don't discharge them too deeply (50%+) too many times (just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD). Float-charging (supplying just enough charge to offset the battery's natural self-discharge current while not in use) maximizes battery life. What this tells me is that a larger battery bank, float-charged, will last longer no matter the battery type. I have read that some telephone companies use the NiFe batteries for their exceptionally long life/reliability, but consider that they keep them on float, and don't draw them down much except maybe during power outages. Technically, a battery on float could last an extremely long time, since it is essentially in "electrochemical stasis": no chemical change = unlimited lifetime. R.

StackerKen | 09-27-2009 11:21 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? I have been planning on setting up a Battery bank for our house. Im learning stuff on this thread. I lived on a boat and had a 5 deep cycle marine battery's for when I left the harbor to the islands. Would Golf cart battery's be a Cheaper way to go?

latitude22 | 09-27-2009 11:59 AM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Quote:
Originally Posted by traderken (Post 1942561) I have been planning on setting up a Battery bank for our house. Im learning stuff on this thread. I lived on a boat and had a 5 deep cycle marine battery's for when I left the harbor to the islands. Would Golf cart battery's be a Cheaper way to go?
As I said before I use golf cart batteries, they are cheaper and they last longer, the plates are much heavier. My golf cart batts are 80lbs a piece. You can get the cheap ones for around $80 each and the good ones for about $120, 200 ah.

kopfjeager | 09-27-2009 03:11 PM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Anyone have any experience with the AGM batteries from Cabela's?

TheNocturnalEgyptian | 09-27-2009 04:14 PM
Re: Nickel Iron batteries last forever? Traderken - those are probably fine. We use half-motorcycle batteries. Although Nickle Iron looks a lot better than lead acid if you're going to be living near it. Get the appropriate (electrical grade) fire extinguisher just in case!

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