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- - The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=32430)

Infidel | 03-25-2006 06:49 AM
The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking http://www.moscowfood.coop/archive/hay_box.html by Mike Forbes, from the April 2001 Newsletter Several years ago a professor introduced me to the idea that when you cook food, much of the energy from your stove is used to overcome heat loss from your food to the kitchen air. If we can insulate our food so heat isn't lost as rapidly, then wouldn't it then take less energy to cook it? Using rice as an example, theoretically once you boil the rice the heat energy to cook the rice completely is there. The heat leaves the rice because the food is insulated poorly, so we overcome this loss by turning the burner down low and simmering it for 30-40 minutes. Couldn't we boil the rice, remove it from the heat source and immediately put it in an insulated box where the heat energy couldn't escape and would finish cooking the rice? Yes, we could and it does work, almost. The catch is building a perfect box that no heat can escape from. I haven't been able to do it and I doubt many scientists can do it in the lab. What I've done for the past 7 years is build various insulated boxes that do really well. I use them primarily for cooking grains like millet, groats, and quinoa and for keeping food and water warm for a LONG period of time. The trick is to build a box that has as little air in it as possible since air is a poor storage medium for heat. I built my box to the exact size of my large cookpot. The boxes are built from rigid foam insulation with a radiant barrier (shiny aluminum coating toward the inside). I glue them together with hobby glue or foam adhesive. (Liquid Nails makes a low-toxic foam adhesive available at many hardware stores). I put little strips of wood on the inside bottom to keep the hot pots directly off the insulation. The door is just a rectangle of foam that fits into the box. It is critical to make the door fit tightly. If you put a slight bevel to the door, it will create a much better seal. Using a table saw to make your cuts makes the process very easy and accurate. To cover the ugly shiny insulation box, I built a wood box around it and lined the door seal with flexible wood strips or duct tape. If you build the box to your largest pot you can still use smaller pots with good success if you add more thermal mass to the box. I found that filling small pint jars with hot water from the tap works well to eliminate any air spaces in the box. My boxes have been only 2" thick (R-14) and work very well. If I put a pot of hot food into it I can pull it out 2-4 hours later still piping hot. That makes cooking food for many people a lot easier. I would imagine that if you made the box 4" thick and sealed it really well the efficiency would be outstanding. It is my understanding that this concept is old and that traditionally hay was used in the boxes as insulation, hence the name hay box.

R MacDonald | 03-25-2006 07:50 AM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking Sounds a lot like Thermos cooking. Check out this Kurt Saxon article: SAVING MONEY WITH A THERMOS BOTTLE By Kurt Saxon Many subscribers write that they will eventually buy all my books but they can't afford them at this time. Many are students on limited allowances. Some are on Social Security or pensions. Others are on Welfare, as I was after an injury, when I got $86.00 per month in l969. I paid $50.00 for rent and had only $36.00 left for food and incidentals. Even so, I ate better than before. Prices were indeed lower then but, surprisingly, the costs of the more basic foods have hardly changed. For instance, 60 pounds of hard red winter wheat, the highest in protein, minerals and vitamins, averages $8.00 (240 breakfasts at 4 cents each). Brown rice, also higher in nutrition than white, costs $14.00 for 25 pounds. Also 200 servings since rice swells twice as large as wheat. These are bought in bulk at any feed and seed store. Wheat and rice are the staple foods of billions and, if prepared my way, will fill you up, give you boundless energy; and cost nothing, if you consider that the saving in gas or electricity will offset their purchase prices. I do not mean that wheat and rice, plain, is what I am asking you to live on. When is the last time you have eaten a potato plain? I am simply suggesting you process all your food in inexpensive, energy-saving ways and eat better than you ever have for less than $10.00 per week. Then you can not only afford all my books but many other things you have wanted but had to do without because most of your food budget goes to pay others to do what you should learn to do for yourself. The thermos and the dehydrator are first steps in eating better for so much less. As a Survivalist, you will have to understand food preparation or you might as well eat, drink and be merry in the short time you have left. A great factor which makes this practical and easy to understand is that since it is by a man, it is basic, gut-level and moron-simple. You won't even need to open a cookbook. First the thermos. There are three kinds but only one is practical. Forget the cheap, plastic ones lined with Styrofoam. These might cook oatmeal and white rice but do not have the heat holding power you need. Silvered glass thermoses are fine, but a bump will break them. Also, since you are going to do actual cooking and will use a fork to remove the contents, they will not hold up. The only practical cooking thermos is the Aladdin Stanley. It is lined with stainless steel, is well insulated and will keep steaming hot for up to 24 hours and holds a quart. It is also unbreakable, with a lifetime warranty. It costs $22.00 at Wal-Mart or can be ordered through any sporting goods store. It would save you its price in a few days. If you have a family, get two or three. Most foods cook at 180 degrees or more. We are used to boiling, which is 212 degrees, and foods do cook faster, the higher the temperature. But if time is not important, cooking at a lower temperature is even better as most vitamins are not broken down. Thus, if you cook at a minimum heat, you save nutrition. A great factor in thermos cooking is the saving in the cost of energy. Whereas it would take about two hours to cook whole-grain wheat or nearly an hour to cook brown rice. Thermos cookery takes only five minutes to cook anything. So it is indeed possible to save as much in energy as you spend on the food. You can imagine the convenience of thermos cookery in camping, which would save on wood, weight of food carried, and no food odors to alert bears or enemies. Thermos cookery is also an advantage to anyone living where he is not allowed to cook. There are no cooking odors to tip off the landlord. First, you need the thermos. Then you need a heat source. If you are in a non-cooking room, buy a cheap, one burner hot plate from your local Wal-Mart, Target, Sears etc. You will need a one quart saucepan. You will also need a special funnel to quickly pour the pan's contents into the thermos, plus a spoon or fork to help the last of the food into the funnel. To make the funnel, cut off the bottom four inches from a gallon plastic milk container. If you do not buy milk or cannot find an empty container, go to your nearest laundromat. You will find in the trash receptacle, an empty gallon bleach bottle. Use that the same as the milk container but wash it until there is no more bleach odor. The first step in thermos cookery is to fill the thermos with water up to the point reached by the stopper. Empty the water into the saucepan and make a scratch or other indelible mark at the water's surface inside the saucepan. This will allow you to put just enough water in the saucepan, as too much will leave food out and too little will give you less cooking water. Just to test how the cooker works, start with four ounces of wheat. You do not need to buy 60 pounds. You can buy two pounds from your health food store for about $.80 This would give you eight meals at 10 cents each. In the evening, put four ounces in your saucepan, plus a half-teaspoon of salt to prevent flatness, even if you intend to sweeten it. Fill to the mark with water. (If you have hot water, let the tap run until it is hottest. Tests have shown that less energy is used in using hot tap water than in boiling from cold.) Bring the contents to a rolling boil, stirring all the while. This will take from three to five minutes. Then quickly, but carefully, swirl and pour the contents into the funnel and help any lagging matter from the pan to the funnel and into the thermos. Cap firmly but not tightly, shake and lay the thermos on its side, to keep the contents even. Next morning open the thermos and pour its contents into the saucepan. With four ounces of dry wheat, you will now have at least 3/4 pound of cooked wheat and about a pint of vitamin and mineral enriched water. It has a pleasant taste. Drink it. You can now put milk and sweetener on it or margarine, salt and pepper, etc. If you can eat the whole 3/4 of a pound, you will be surprised at how energetic you feel for the next several hours. An added bonus is its high fiber content. Having tried the four ounce portion, you might next use eight ounces. This will absorb most of the water. It is unlikely that you could eat a pound and a half of cooked whole grain wheat. You can either divide it and eat the other half for supper or if you are a family man, make it the family breakfast food to replace the expensive brand. If you have children, get them into the act by fantasizing they are Rangers on a jungle patrol. For lunch, prepare a few ounces of hamburger or other meat chopped finely, plus chopped potatoes and other vegetables the night before. After breakfast, put these and the right amount of water in the saucepan and prepare as usual. At lunchtime you will have a quart of really delicious stew. Since nothing leaves the thermos in cooking, as contrasted to the flavor leaving stew cooking on the stove, you can understand the better tasting, higher vitamin content of thermos stew. Lunch and possibly supper should not cost you more than 25 cents if you study the article on the dehydrator. Jerky and dried vegetable stew is good and costs little. The brown rice dishes could also be either a main course or desert. Brown rice has a much greater swelling factor than wheat so four ounces of rice will pretty much fill the thermos. You can put vegetables and meat in it to cook or try a favorite of mine. It is four ounces of brown rice, 9 cents; one ounce of powdered milk, 10 cents in a large box; two ounces of raisins, 22 cents; one teaspoon of salt; some cinnamon and four saccharine tablets. Cook overnight. This is 46 cents for 1 1/2 pounds of desert. With some experimenting, you can become an expert in thermos cookery. If you are single and live alone, you could, conceivably, eat nothing except what you cooked in a thermos. But if you are married, and especially if you have children, don't push it. Even with the economy of this system, it's not worth alienating your family. If your wife doesn't like it, challenge her to make the food tastier and think up some thermos recipes. You might also tell her the advantages of thermos cookery. For one thing, she would spend much less time in the kitchen. What with the expected brownouts, she could do all the cooking in five, ten, fifteen minutes, depending on how many thermos bottles she used. Another important factor is that, especially during the heat waves, the home would not suffer the added heat from the kitchen. This would also cut down on the air conditioning costs. A tip you may not have known is that the pilot light in a gas stove not only raises the temperature in the kitchen but also accounts for a fourth of all the gas burned in the stove. Matches are much cheaper. Turn the pilot light off. Be sure to get SURVIVOR Vol. 1 for a full course on inexpensive but tasty and nourishing food, plus sprouting for green vegetables, soy milk, tofu, etc. http://www.kurtsaxon.com/foods005.htm

R MacDonald | 03-25-2006 08:11 AM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking Also check out this thermal cooker by Thermos: http://www.galtak.com/thermos.html Looks like they've been reading up on Kurt Saxon! :D http://www.galtak.com/TDIAG.JPG

Infidel | 03-25-2006 01:00 PM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking Cool stuff. Thank you

goddess | 03-25-2006 03:26 PM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking If you have a gal who can sew for you these are awsome! I made one a while back and love it. http://ourldsfamily.com/wonderbox/

NUTS! | 03-26-2006 12:22 AM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking After Action Report - NUTS! vs. Thermos I thought the Thermos idea was so cool that I had to try it. I went and picked up a cheap ArcoSteel Vacuum Insulated stainless steel thermos for $8-- thanks to the trade deficit with China. Not wanting to buy a bulk bag from a Feed store if this didn't work, I went and grabbed a half pound from a health food store. Costs about 5x as much as bulk from a feed store, but it was still only about 70 cents. The Thermos was 1.5 pints and everything I read on Thermos cooking for wheat berries says to use 1/3 wheat berries and then fill with boiling water. So a cup of wheat went into the thermos. Then I poured in boiling water from the kettle and quickly sealed it. I had some fun shaking it a bit and then laid it on it's side. It didn't do anything. It dawned on me that I had just reached the boring part of the experiment, so I walked away. 5 hours later, I opened it up. I got a few fluid ounces of brown "wheat tea" that actually tasted quite good. The wheat berries themselves had swolen to fill up the thermos. I poured them out and tried them. Slightly chewy, but thoroughly cooked. It worked perfectly. I ate my fill and then put the rest in an old yogurt container for tommorow. It looks like each "cooking" will produce enough for 2 or 3 breakfasts in my .75 quart Thermos. The full quart sized ones like is discussed above will likely make even more. Excellent tip! Now I can store wheat and have a means of cooking it without getting a mill. If I can boil water just until it boils, I can cook it in my thermos without wasting any excess water or heat. Thanks so much for starting this topic zhukher and thanks for the info on Thermos cooking R. MacDonald!:clap2:

bjgnome | 03-26-2006 12:41 AM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking If you're stocking wheat berries, you might as well know how to sprout them. This is a very quick guide to sprouting several grains and legumes. If you soak grains or beans overnight before cooking, they will cook faster, and will have more nutritional value. -BJG ******************************* http://www.efn.org/~sundance/Sprouting.html Sprouting 101 - No prerequisites required The foundation of the living foods concept is the seed. Filled with nutrients needed by the growing plant, and suffused with vital enzymes, seeds are the very core of life. All the energy and life of a plant goes toward making seeds. Each seed holds vitamins, minerals, proteins, fats, and carbohydrates in reserve, awaiting the suitable environment to begin growing. When air, water, and a suitable temperature are provided, a miracle begins. The seed germinates,begins to sprout, and an incredible flow of energy is released. Natural chemical changes occur. Enzymes are produced to convert the concentrated nutrients into those needed by the growing plant. As the sprouting process continues, carbohydrates are made easier to assimilate. Complex proteins are converted into more simple amino acids and fats are changed into fatty acids, which are easily digested soluble compounds. Vitamin C, along with some other vitamins found only in trace amounts in the seed, is produced in larger amounts during sprouting. In addition, sprouts absorb minerals and vital trace elements from the water used to grow and rinse them. Moreover, the minerals in sprouts are chelated; that is, in their natural state, they are chemically bound to amino acids, so that they are easily assimilated by the human body. Sprouts which turn green are rich in chlorophyll. http://www.efn.org/%7Esundance/rainline.gif Sprouting Advantages Enzymes are activated. Proteins convert to free amino acids. Starches change to simple sugars. Minerals combine to increase assimilation. Vitamin content increases from 3 to 12 or more times. Chlorophyll and carotene content increase dramatically when exposed to sunlight. Home-grown sprouts are remarkably inexpensive. How To Soak seeds for 12 hours (overnight) - more or less Rinse 3-6 times daily - rinse 1 or more times until the water is fresh & clear; leave the jar upside down to drain. Sprouts are ready in 3 or 4 days or when green leaves are evident Pure (filtered) water is best - it produces the most alive food possible Seeds, beans & peas can be stored for years (some alfalfa seeds survived for millennia in Egyptian tombs and still sprouted!) When ready, keep sprouts refrigerated & rinse daily Cooking time can be lessened & nutritional content increased by sprouting buckwheat, rice, corn or wheat (12 to 24 hours should be enough time) Variety Amount per qt. jar Length at Harvest Notes Adzuki Beans1/2 cup1/2"-1"mild flavor; crunchy texture Alfalfa Seeds2 Tbl1"-1 1/2"Ends up being 40% protein Cabbage Seeds1/6 cup1" Garbanzo Beans1/2 cup1/2"use for Hummus, (chick peas) dressings, salads Clover Seeds2 Tbl1"-1 1/2" Fenugreek Seeds1/4 cup1/2"-1"Known as a blood & kidney cleanser; spicy flavor Green Peas1/2 cup1/2 "Use whole peas Lentil Beans1/2 cup1/4"-3/4"Earthy flavor; use only unhulled, green lentils Mung Beans1/4 cup1/2"-1 1/2" Pumpkin Seeds1/2 cupSwells up- does not sprout Rich flavor - best eaten after about 24 hrs Radish Seeds1/8 cup1"Zesty, hot flavor Rye Berries1/2 cup1/4"-1/2"Slightly sweet- good for hot cereals, breads, granola, as well as salads Sunflower Seeds1 cup0"-1/2" Wheat Berries1/2 cup1/4"-1/2"Soft Spring wheat berries are best

NUTS! | 03-26-2006 12:52 AM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking Quote:
Originally Posted by bjgnome If you're stocking wheat berries, you might as well know how to sprout them. This is a very quick guide to sprouting several grains and legumes. If you soak grains or beans overnight before cooking, they will cook faster, and will have more nutritional value.
Thanks for the heads up. I first read about sprouting in Nourishing Traditions by Sandy Fallon. It's a cook book about healthy traditional/tribal diets and the evils of the food industry. If anyone's interested in starting to cook more from scratch and making more traditional/tribal/primitive foods, definitely check it out. Nourishing Traditions: The Cookbook that Challenges Politically Correct Nutrition and the Diet Dictocrats http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/096...lance&n=283155 A good amount of content from the same author is on her Non-profit org website: http://www.westonaprice.org/index.html

bjgnome | 03-26-2006 01:10 AM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking Remember with any jar with a lid with holes in it, and some seeds, you have a greenhouse that you can carry in a backpack if need be. Just add water!

Infidel | 03-26-2006 02:58 AM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking we crashed kurt saxon's website

Infidel | 03-26-2006 03:00 AM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking After Action Report - NUTS! vs. Thermos Thank you NUTS for a great report

bjgnome | 03-26-2006 12:39 PM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking Quote:
Originally Posted by NUTS! The Thermos was 1.5 pints and everything I read on Thermos cooking for wheat berries says to use 1/3 wheat berries and then fill with boiling water. So a cup of wheat went into the thermos. Then I poured in boiling water from the kettle and quickly sealed it.
Thanks for the report Nuts! I'm going to get my thermos soon. A suggestion would be to boil the wheatberries with the water, so they will already be at boiling temp when they go in the thermos. That way the berries may be somewhat better cooked. Notice how a boiling pot stops boiling when you throw a cup of room temperature grains or pasta in it...

NUTS! | 03-26-2006 02:58 PM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking Quote:
Originally Posted by bjgnome Thanks for the report Nuts! I'm going to get my thermos soon. A suggestion would be to boil the wheatberries with the water, so they will already be at boiling temp when they go in the thermos. That way the berries may be somewhat better cooked. Notice how a boiling pot stops boiling when you throw a cup of room temperature grains or pasta in it...
Good point! I was being a bit lazy. The kettle was there, so I started it up. One thing I liked was not having to make a funnel from a bottle. I have a 1 cup measure cup that has a good spout and was able to pour the berries in and the water from the kettle without the use of a funnel. I know it's just laziness but after doing some google seaching for thermos cooking, more sites/forum posts on the net said they put the wheat berries in cold and just added boiling water from the kettle. My guess is that boiling them together would cook the wheat berries more thoroughly and they'd be less chewy. Perhaps I should do some testing. Figure out how much energy it takes to get the water and berries boiling together in a pot versus my stove top kettle. My guess is that the kettle is more efficient, but overall the heat going into the vacuum flast is probably greater when you boil the wheat berries. The real test will be when I cook lentils and rice. It's possible that the cold grain and kettle method won't give sufficient heat to cook it all the way through like the wheat berries. Perhaps they'll be "crunchy" still because of the loss of heat from cold berries. I'll play with it some more and figure it out. Vacuum Flask cooking seems like it could be the cornerstone of a low energy use/low water use diet during times of trouble and I think it's worth testing.

NUTS! | 03-26-2006 03:01 PM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking Does anyone know of a vacuum flask kettle? I think that would be awesome. The bottom would be conductive and non vacuum (as that's where the heat goes in) but the top and sides would be entirely vacuum insulated. The spout would be short and would have a vacuum insulated cap and an ever so tiny hole with one of those steam noise makers to let you know it's done. I suppose it might explode though.

bjgnome | 03-26-2006 05:09 PM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking Quote:
Originally Posted by NUTS! One thing I liked was not having to make a funnel from a bottle. I have a 1 cup measure cup that has a good spout and was able to pour the berries in and the water from the kettle without the use of a funnel.
Rode my bycicle to china mart and bought the stanley 24oz/.7 liter with wide mouth opening. Love the sea foam green! Water + sea salt + sweet mochii brown rice (try it you'll like it) up to a boil and poured it in there, but had some difficulty getting those grains in there because I FORGOT THE FUNNEL - DUH! Thanks for the reminder. I'll post results tonight.

bjgnome | 03-26-2006 10:04 PM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking Rice was steaming hot 4 hours later, but slighlty undercooked. Pretty good consistency, but had a slight smell & taste of raw rice. I figure that a lot of heat was lost when I was struggling to get all the rice in the thermos. I put it back in the pot, brought it up to a boil again, and threw it back in the thermos. Breakfast. I am not discouraged. Onward! :ridinghor Also just dusted off my sprouting jar and put some alfalfa in to soak.

demosfen | 04-01-2006 01:50 PM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking Glass thermos seems to work for me. Wouldn't it be easier to put raw rice in thermos and just add boiling water though? That way funnel is not needed.

NUTS! | 04-01-2006 04:08 PM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking Quote:
Originally Posted by demosfen Glass thermos seems to work for me. Wouldn't it be easier to put raw rice in thermos and just add boiling water though? That way funnel is not needed.
That's what I've been doing (just adding boiling water). I'm sure it does work in a vacuum glass thermos, but I've broken my share of those to come to the conclusion that they're not worth it compared to the stainless steel ones. Those things are so cheap right now. There's nothing worse than a bunch of food inside a thermos filled with shattered glass. Not worth it. Especially if it's in a time of food scarcity and every ounce of wheat or rice counts.

mightyspuds | 04-01-2006 07:36 PM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking I wasnt even going to read the thread,thought 'I dont need this' I was wrong,great ideas here.I had read of thermos cooking before,but lost the knowledge in this old brain somewhere.Going to have to try the chicken. And this plays right into my dehydration experimentation,bet this is excellent for rehydration,I will try this next week when I have the time.Also like that upholstered box. EXCELLENT THREAD folks! Spuds:sheep:

NUTS! | 04-01-2006 09:00 PM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking Well, since my first test, half of all my meals have become thermos cooked. My friends and co-workers think it's a bit nuts after I explain. Before I explain, they think I just brought lunch in a thermos. I've been trying pretty much everything I could get my hands on. Some things that worked better than others: Pretty much all grains. Rice, lentils, wheat berries, bulgur wheat, kamut, barley, and so on. They all worked great. The rice and lentils were best after I left them for 8+ hours rather than 4 or 5. Eggs. Maybe there's something else I could mix in there, but the texture wasn't exactly pleasing. When I tried mixing in some grains, it didn't really help. More experimenting is definitely needed. Maybe I need to adjust the water:egg ratio. They're cooked, but not exactly pleasant. Sort of like poached eggs gone wrong. Veggies. Fresh & Dehydrated. Both worked great. The fresh veggies get cooked/steamed in a very short amount of time (some as low as 1-5 minutes). Potatoes. Absolutely amazing. I filled half the thermos with cut potatoe chunks and 5 hours later they were perfectly cooked. Can't say I'm a fan of the starchy left over water though. I have not yet ventured into cooking meats other than eggs. I want to do some more reading on that first.

demosfen | 04-01-2006 10:09 PM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking Quote:
Originally Posted by NUTS! That's what I've been doing (just adding boiling water). I'm sure it does work in a vacuum glass thermos, but I've broken my share of those to come to the conclusion that they're not worth it compared to the stainless steel ones. Those things are so cheap right now. There's nothing worse than a bunch of food inside a thermos filled with shattered glass. Not worth it. Especially if it's in a time of food scarcity and every ounce of wheat or rice counts.
Unfortunately, last year I came across this site - goldismoney.info. After reading some posts there, I withdrew all money from my checking account and bought gold coins. I keep them in my stainless steel thermos, so I am forced to use a glass one for as long as bull market in PMs continues. :bawling:

Turtleguy9 | 04-12-2006 11:15 PM
Re: The Hay Box - Insulated Box Food Cooking Wow I thought from the title of the thread , how useless is this? I was wrong, Thanks for starting the thread. It has showed me a better way to do things, I was already doing Turtleguy9

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