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- - What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=150588)

Darkside | 06-28-2007 08:55 AM
What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense I was shown an article here: http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=720545 about what to say and how to behave to police after you are forced to shoot someone in self defense. I think information like this is invaluable. Does anyone here have any additional advice on this? Just how does one get a lawyer? I don't have some personal lawyer watching my back... I figured that privilege was exclusive to the uber wealthy

Maddie | 06-28-2007 09:09 AM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense My advice would be not to write on the Internet how you plan to handle it if you ever have to shoot someone in self-defense. If you ever really do have to, and the case goes to court, it wouldn't look so great to have a prosecuting attorney show up with your scripted answers to the LEOs questions in-hand.

<SLV> | 06-28-2007 09:31 AM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Interesting discussion. The thing that strikes me as interesting is the way the discussion assumes that all cops are the same. There are many different types of departments (city, county, state, federal), and within those departments there are different types of cops. I think it would do well to assess the type of cop and jurisdiction with which you are dealing. For instance, I know my town's police force personally. It is a small town, and there are only 8 of them. About half of them I have a great relationship with. When I see them around town we always smile and wave, or stop and talk. If I was involved in a deadly shooting I would specifically request to talk to a city officer. I would simply say that I felt more comfortable talking with someone I knew - and I do. That's not to say that I wouldn't be extremely careful and selective with my words... PS - Next time I'm in a social setting with the Chief of Police in my town I will ask him his opinion of what a self-defense shooter should do when the police arrive at the scene. I will also ask him if an unwillingness to talk may be construde as guilt.

Kahlil Gibran | 06-28-2007 09:46 AM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense From the link: Quote:
So, when first confronting arriving police officers, (1) assume a non-threatening posture, with both palms turned outward and clearly visible. Make sure no guns or weapons are visible. (2) Get into the "victim" column" right away with, "Officers, thank God you're here!" Then (3) identify yourself by saying, "I'm the one who called." (Violent criminal actors don't call the police very often!) When asked what happened, say: "That man tried to murder us," pointing in the direction of the perpetrator. Then comes (4) "I'll be happy to answer all your questions just as soon as my attorney is here." Beyond that, shut your mouth. Don't sign anything and don't "consent" to anything. If arrested, submit peacefully and without comment. When asked if you understand your rights, say "No." When asked what you don't understand, say, "I don't understand any of it." "Tape loops" need to be practiced every time we go to the range. None of the foregoing may seem important, until the unthinkable happens. Then, I promise you, the nightmare will begin, made all that much worse when you don't know your lines!
:sleepy13: One of my brothers is a cop. This is what he told me too.

Darkside | 06-28-2007 12:11 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddie (Post 649026) My advice would be not to write on the Internet how you plan to handle it if you ever have to shoot someone in self-defense. If you ever really do have to, and the case goes to court, it wouldn't look so great to have a prosecuting attorney show up with your scripted answers to the LEOs questions in-hand.
I see your point but I disagree. It would be like talking about what you would do in a post-car-accident situation and how to prepare for it, what to say to other driver and the police- and then you get in an accident and a prosecutor finds your post and claims the accident was premeditated.

DrillAndFill | 06-28-2007 12:47 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense The advice on the glocktalk page jibes with what a superior court judge once told me. A good serviceable strategy, easy to remember, is to avoid saying anything at all. I cringe every time I watch a cop show on television, with long, multi-page scenes of the cops interrogating suspects. If the suspects would just STFU, as is their right, many plots would go nowhere. Guilty people benefit little by talking to the cops. Innocent people benefit not at all.

Anty Ep | 06-28-2007 03:22 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddie (Post 649026) My advice would be not to write on the Internet how you plan to handle it if you ever have to shoot someone in self-defense. If you ever really do have to, and the case goes to court, it wouldn't look so great to have a prosecuting attorney show up with your scripted answers to the LEOs questions in-hand.
good advice. the key to the whole thing, and the words that best reflect it are: "I was in fear of my life." Simple as that.

Anty Ep | 06-28-2007 03:26 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense hiring a lawyer is nothing you can realistically do in this situation. but by saying that you want to talk to your lawyer, that comments cuts off their ability to question you under the fifth amendment laws like miranda. but if you're not in custody they can keep on talking to you, and if you dont answer something they may take you into custody when they might otherwise not. if it is in your house though, they probably will just detain you rather than arrest you. you want to have a relationship with a lawyer, then go out and meet one. they are all over the place. they have families, go to churches, what have you. ask around to your friends and family. this is however a specialized area, that of criminal law. not all lawyers do crimnal law. mostly the guys who do personal injury plaintiff or traffic misdemeanor and DUI are the ones to talk to about this, not joe corporate. about the cheapest way to strike up a personal relationship with a regular lawyer is to hire one to do your last will and testament.

Big_Rob | 06-28-2007 03:29 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense That or you could live in a state such as Florida that has an AWESOME castle doctrine law! Florida "Castle Doctrine" Protects the Innocent Puts Judiciary on the side of crime victims News media gets it completely wrong On March 23, 2005, The Florida Senate passed SB-436, the "Castle Doctrine" unanimously, by a vote of 39 YEAS to zero NAYS. They know something about this bill. On April 5, The Florida House passed SB-436, "Castle Doctrine" by a vote of 94 YEAS to 20 NAYS, a margin of better than four to one. On April 26, Governor Jeb Bush SIGNED SB-436, the "Castle Doctrine" into law (Chapter No. 2005-27) It takes effect on October 1, 2005. The news media nationwide started in immediately with its �Gunshine State,� blood in the streets, Dirty Harry, vigilante, irrational mass murder nonsense, mythologies, lies and blatant unethical behavior. A great deal of erroneous information has been written, published and spoken about Florida's new "Castle Doctrine" law. Claims that the new law will turn Florida into the Wild West are not only an insult to intelligent people but give a patently false portrait of what the bill actually does. The Florida "Castle Doctrine" law basically does three things: One: It establishes, in law, the presumption that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm, therefore a person may use any manner of force, including deadly force, against that person. Two: It removes the "duty to retreat" if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be. You no longer have to turn your back on a criminal and try to run when attacked. Instead, you may stand your ground and fight back, meeting force with force, including deadly force, if you reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to yourself or others. [This is an American right repeatedly recognized in Supreme Court gun cases.] Three: It provides that persons using force authorized by law shall not be prosecuted for using such force. It also prohibits criminals and their families from suing victims for injuring or killing the criminals who have attacked them. In short, it gives rights back to law-abiding people and forces judges and prosecutors who are prone to coddling criminals to instead focus on protecting victims. SO -- is this the impression you got from the news? Why not? Aren�t media people impartial purveyors of objective facts, with no bias or spin, faithfully and accurately reporting the news? Everyone who believes that�s an accurate description of the news media please raise your hand. See? No hands go up. Despite their protests otherwise, the news media has, in general, and especially with respect to gun issues, become an outrageous purveyor of agenda-driven nonsense on the dark side of the force.

Ash_Williams | 06-28-2007 04:47 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Is it safe to assume someone breaking into your house didn't tell his family and friends where he was headed that night? I would probably not call the police at all.

Goldfinger | 06-28-2007 05:42 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash_Williams (Post 649423) Is it safe to assume someone breaking into your house didn't tell his family and friends where he was headed that night? I would probably not call the police at all.
Just make sure you clean the neighbors wood chipper before you return it...

Darkside | 06-28-2007 05:52 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldfinger (Post 649485) Just make sure you clean the neighbors wood chipper before you return it...
or what about that neighbor with the boars? then there is no mess

extremist | 06-28-2007 07:04 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Lawyer up and say you don't know nothin' 'bout nothin'.

Kahuna | 06-28-2007 08:41 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Take the opportunity to stock the freezer.

demosfen | 06-28-2007 09:26 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahlil Gibran (Post 649054) "I'll be happy to answer all your questions just as soon as my attorney is here."
Never do that. You have a right to remain silent, so use it. Shut up until you appear before the judge. Anything you tell the cops will be used in court when the cops testify against you as prosecution witnesses. Keeping your mouth shut is the single most important thing when you are being charged. I once was questioned by the police after having an argument with some nutty woman, first thing they did was to ask me (very friendly), "So, what happened?". Silly me, I confessed to everything. The cops are not your friends. They will read you your Miranda rights AFTER they get all the information from you, and then testify against you in court. Never say a word until you appear before the judge.

shades2 | 06-28-2007 10:56 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense I have been screwed over once by a policeman (a detective wearing blues) before, who was actually taking a statement for court over a traffic offense without my knowledge, and I am not person of bad character. The statement was ridiculous, and painted me as some sort of moron, he even messed up the grammar to change the meaning of my original statement in an attempt to incriminate me. Luckily the judge fined me $100 for the infringement, and no court appearance was necessary, I made sure I paid the fine. I said very little on that occasion, and I plan on saying even less next time. That little event destroyed any remaining trust I had in the police being objective. As for a shooting, well it's a very serious event, particularly if someone died. I would simply tell the police that I'm too shocked to speak about anything, but I'm happy to talk to them about what transpired with my lawyer there, and only after I've had a few mugs of hot chocolate and consulted with my legal counsel. If you are involved in a shooting (or any reasonably serious event), in self-defense or whatever, and you don't get a lawyer to present your case, you are a prized idiot, and you will likely get drawn over the coals and hung out to dry. I discovered that filling prisons is an industry, with quotas to be met, and one I don't intend to participate in. When dealing with the police, innocent or not, your mouth is your worst enemy. Learn to control it.

demosfen | 06-28-2007 11:58 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 649684) I would simply tell the police that I'm too shocked to speak about anything, but I'm happy to talk to them about what transpired with my lawyer there, and only after I've had a few mugs of hot chocolate and consulted with my legal counsel.
Well, somebody explain to me what goal you are trying to achieve by talking to the police in presence of your lawyer. It's good for the police because you might say something that incriminates you, and it's good for the lawyer because he is making money off of you. But what's in it for you? :banghead:

shades2 | 06-29-2007 03:54 AM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by demosfen (Post 649714) Well, somebody explain to me w0hat goal you are trying to achieve by talking to the police in presence of your lawyer. It's good for the police because you might say something that incriminates you, and it's good for the lawyer because he is making money off of you. But what's in it for you? :banghead:
While I've never been arrested, I believe you actually speak to your lawyer before the police, and he can briefly advise you on what you need to say, and what not to say, and can be present at your interview to advise you. You get your story straight with him, then present it to the police. That means you tell the lawyer what really happened. It's pointless lying to your lawyer, or he can't defend you properly. If you have already been arrested, read your rights and have blabbed in the meantime, the police can use it against you. The court will also look poorly on anyone that sits there and doesn't say anything during an interview, and there will be a presumption of guilt. If you let the police interview you without a lawyer present, you are asking to get grilled, and you could well end up saying something you regret later. The lawyer in fact should interject, and tell you if you should answer something that might incriminate you, he can't tell you what to say, but he can help prevent you answering a loaded question. This is why cops hate having a lawyer present. They have to prove you have done something, opening your mouth and directly incriminating yourself is not good evidence, and is not something to engage in. There have been a lot of cases of people being bullied into confessions for crimes they were not responsible for, and I'm sure a lawyer was never present. http://www.abanet.org/publiced/pract...on_lawyer.html Of course the lawyer makes money off you, that is a trade off for his services. His job is to represent your interests, keep you out of prison, or minimise your fine/sentence/punishment. If it's serious enough to get interrogated by the police, I would say it's serious enough to pay for a good lawyer, or at least get a public defender.

shades2 | 06-29-2007 04:02 AM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by demosfen (Post 649639) Never do that. You have a right to remain silent, so use it. Shut up until you appear before the judge. Anything you tell the cops will be used in court when the cops testify against you as prosecution witnesses. Keeping your mouth shut is the single most important thing when you are being charged. I once was questioned by the police after having an argument with some nutty woman, first thing they did was to ask me (very friendly), "So, what happened?". Silly me, I confessed to everything. The cops are not your friends. They will read you your Miranda rights AFTER they get all the information from you, and then testify against you in court. Never say a word until you appear before the judge.
The court will look very dimly on anyone who doesn't answer questions during a police interview, it will look as if you are being evasive or untruthful about not talking openly about an event. The court will then look at other evidence and witness statements instead and base their case around that, if you don't say anything in your defense then the prosecution will bring up the fact that you appeared evasive or unwilling to say anything during the interview. The court will increase any punishment accordingly, (often to maximum sentence) if you are found guilty, as you have been uncooperative and made their job harder. That is the trade off.

demosfen | 06-29-2007 10:05 AM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Here is a relevant case - Vera Stretz trial in 1936. She got acquitted of murder, jury decided it was 'justifiable homicide'. She refused to talk to the police, hired lawyer, and wouldn't tell what happened until she appeared before the judge. Since it was the first and only time she talked, no disrepancies were found between her testimony and what she told the police, neighbors, etc. I am not even sure what she told the judge was true, it could be just a lie that her lawyer instructed her to tell... Compare it to any case where the person opened his mouth, like Miranda case. Or Martha Stewart. The policeman is not going to appear before judge and testify that you didn't talk to him, and that it's evidence of your guilt. That's just silly. Here is a good program to listen to, go to link below and find "Great American trials" in May 2004 archives - http://georgegordon.org/Radio_Archives.htm#Archives

shades2 | 06-29-2007 12:19 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by demosfen (Post 649955) Here is a relevant case - Vera Stretz trial in 1936. She got acquitted of murder, jury decided it was 'justifiable homicide'. She refused to talk to the police, hired lawyer, and wouldn't tell what happened until she appeared before the judge. Since it was the first and only time she talked, no disrepancies were found between her testimony and what she told the police, neighbors, etc. I am not even sure what she told the judge was true, it could be just a lie that her lawyer instructed her to tell... Compare it to any case where the person opened his mouth, like Miranda case. Or Martha Stewart. The policeman is not going to appear before judge and testify that you didn't talk to him, and that it's evidence of your guilt. That's just silly. Here is a good program to listen to, go to link below and find "Great American trials" in May 2004 archives - http://georgegordon.org/Radio_Archives.htm#Archives
An unusual case. I would say that the police would definately mention to the judge via the prosecutor, that you were able to talk and walk around after arrest or when taken in for questioning, yet when taken into the interview room you clammed up. Of course the judge is meant to look at that objectively, but it will seem as if you are hiding something. The prosecutor is definately going to be fishing for such information to build a case against you. You are right, in that saying nothing in an interview or interrogation means you aren't going to implicate yourself, but then you are not building any sort of case, are appearing very evasive, and when it goes to court you better come out with something astounding that matches what everyone else says happened. Odds are the police are not going to tell you anything either if you try the silent treatment, that's because they know people are curious by nature, and will try to break the silence to get more information. During the interview with a lawyer present, or even by yourself, you could ask the police to clarify things, of course, they can choose to reveal whatever they want, and this may give a hint about what you are facing in terms of the charges, and why. It's a place to potentially trade information that can help your legal counsel, or yourself. You might get a better picture of what actually transpired, and how guilty you look. You could ask them what you are charged with, what the outcome could be if found guilty, etc. Most people probably go into an interview in a state of shock. For criminals, the fact they got caught and are likely going down for something. For innocent folk, the fact they are even in a police station after some traumatic event. Both types of people will generally waive the right to a lawyer etc. and spill the beans, unless they know how the system works.

mtnman | 06-29-2007 01:07 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 649815) The court will look very dimly on anyone who doesn't answer questions during a police interview, it will look as if you are being evasive or untruthful about not talking openly about an event. The court will then look at other evidence and witness statements instead and base their case around that, if you don't say anything in your defense then the prosecution will bring up the fact that you appeared evasive or unwilling to say anything during the interview. The court will increase any punishment accordingly, (often to maximum sentence) if you are found guilty, as you have been uncooperative and made their job harder. That is the trade off.
Spoken like a Cop, are you one? SCREW what the "Court" thinks!!! Your fate is in the hands of the JURY! I am speaking from personal experience here. I was charged with 2<SUP>nd</SUP> degree murder 5 years ago. I shot a man in his left eye, killing him, after he knocked me down with his fist and was coming after me again. A bystander called the cops. When the cops got there I told them "I was the one they wanted", that�s all. When questioned at the scene and later at the police station all I said was "I was afraid for my life" and "I need to talk to an attorney". I was arrested and posted bond. There were several witnesses. The cops questioned all of them. Some of the witnesses were taken to the police station for more questions. The DA tried to get one of the witnesses to change his story (this was brought out at the trial). The only person I told my story to was my lawyer and the jury when I was on trial. I was found NOT GUILTY. THE COPS ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS!!!!! Never talk to them about ANYTHING!!!!! They WILL twist ANYTHING YOU SAY against you!!!!

mtnman | 06-29-2007 01:12 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 649813) While I've never been arrested, I believe you actually speak to your lawyer before the police, and he can briefly advise you on what you need to say, and what not to say, and can be present at your interview to advise you. You get your story straight with him, then present it to the police. That means you tell the lawyer what really happened. It's pointless lying to your lawyer, or he can't defend you properly. If you have already been arrested, read your rights and have blabbed in the meantime, the police can use it against you. The court will also look poorly on anyone that sits there and doesn't say anything during an interview, and there will be a presumption of guilt. If you let the police interview you without a lawyer present, you are asking to get grilled, and you could well end up saying something you regret later. The lawyer in fact should interject, and tell you if you should answer something that might incriminate you, he can't tell you what to say, but he can help prevent you answering a loaded question. This is why cops hate having a lawyer present. They have to prove you have done something, opening your mouth and directly incriminating yourself is not good evidence, and is not something to engage in. There have been a lot of cases of people being bullied into confessions for crimes they were not responsible for, and I'm sure a lawyer was never present. http://www.abanet.org/publiced/pract...on_lawyer.html Of course the lawyer makes money off you, that is a trade off for his services. His job is to represent your interests, keep you out of prison, or minimise your fine/sentence/punishment. If it's serious enough to get interrogated by the police, I would say it's serious enough to pay for a good lawyer, or at least get a public defender.
Never Never Never say anything to the police, that's your lawyers job. You have no reason to talk to the cops, it IS NOT required!

mtnman | 06-29-2007 01:14 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 650095) An unusual case. I would say that the police would definately mention to the judge via the prosecutor, that you were able to talk and walk around after arrest or when taken in for questioning, yet when taken into the interview room you clammed up. Of course the judge is meant to look at that objectively, but it will seem as if you are hiding something. The prosecutor is definately going to be fishing for such information to build a case against you. You are right, in that saying nothing in an interview or interrogation means you aren't going to implicate yourself, but then you are not building any sort of case, are appearing very evasive, and when it goes to court you better come out with something astounding that matches what everyone else says happened. Odds are the police are not going to tell you anything either if you try the silent treatment, that's because they know people are curious by nature, and will try to break the silence to get more information. During the interview with a lawyer present, or even by yourself, you could ask the police to clarify things, of course, they can choose to reveal whatever they want, and this may give a hint about what you are facing in terms of the charges, and why. It's a place to potentially trade information that can help your legal counsel, or yourself. You might get a better picture of what actually transpired, and how guilty you look. You could ask them what you are charged with, what the outcome could be if found guilty, etc. Most people probably go into an interview in a state of shock. For criminals, the fact they got caught and are likely going down for something. For innocent folk, the fact they are even in a police station after some traumatic event. Both types of people will generally waive the right to a lawyer etc. and spill the beans, unless they know how the system works.
I'm almost sure you're COP now!

shades2 | 06-30-2007 10:30 AM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 650139) Spoken like a Cop, are you one? SCREW what the "Court" thinks!!! Your fate is in the hands of the JURY! I am speaking from personal experience here. I was charged with 2<sup>nd</sup> degree murder 5 years ago. I shot a man in his left eye, killing him, after he knocked me down with his fist and was coming after me again. A bystander called the cops. When the cops got there I told them "I was the one they wanted", that’s all. When questioned at the scene and later at the police station all I said was "I was afraid for my life" and "I need to talk to an attorney". I was arrested and posted bond. There were several witnesses. The cops questioned all of them. Some of the witnesses were taken to the police station for more questions. The DA tried to get one of the witnesses to change his story (this was brought out at the trial). The only person I told my story to was my lawyer and the jury when I was on trial. I was found NOT GUILTY. THE COPS ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS!!!!! Never talk to them about ANYTHING!!!!! They WILL twist ANYTHING YOU SAY against you!!!!
No I'm not a cop. As for the court thing, well you might just face a judge, but in a serious case, you are going to face a jury. I was speaking generally. I didn't realise that you could make a statement to the police just through a lawyer though. I thought they would want to question you directly with a lawyer present. Sorry to hear you had to shoot someone. As for the cops twisting your words, I have direct experience of that, after a statement (which I didn't realise I was giving) was misused against me, which could have turned a relatively minor traffic offense, into something a lot worse. Thankfully the court didn't regard it as a massive deal. I'm not sure why the cop chose to do that, I guess they thought it was serious enough to get a statement. If a friendly policeman shows up, I'm going to tell him nothing that might incriminate me in future, I've learnt that lesson. I could have been facing a hefty fine in the thousands possibly. The vehicle I was driving was unregistered and was involved in a minor acident, due to the fact I hadn't received the registration papers, therefore the vehicle didn't have the state government insurance on it either. The vehicle was however insured with an insurance company. However, the onus was on the driver to make sure the vehicle is registered, or not to drive it regardless, so my reason for not registering it, didn't fly. In essence, the vehicle registration process is just another tax, although it carries an insurance liability to protect you financially. In some states they can take your license or give you 12 months jail time, which is just incredible really... I'd definately let them take the license... There are so many unregistered drivers getting around here, that they stopped prosecuting them back in 2001 and are considering issuing infringement notices to fine and make people cough up for registration/insurance.

shades2 | 06-30-2007 10:31 AM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 650145) I'm almost sure you're COP now!
Once again, not a cop, but I read a lot, and have read about quite a few cases and how the law actually works, as opposed to how we think it works.

demosfen | 06-30-2007 11:13 AM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense I recall reading a piece of advice that you should shoot to kill, because if you wound the guy, he will testify against you in court, his lawyer will twist the whole thing, you may end up paying his medical bills and disability, etc... So to answer your question, if you shoot someone and the bastard is still alive, keep shooting. :yippee:

platinumdude | 06-30-2007 04:40 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 650800) Once again, not a cop, but I read a lot, and have read about quite a few cases and how the law actually works, as opposed to how we think it works.
http://www.angelfire.com/oh/chelle26/cops2.gif http://www.angelfire.com/oh/chelle26/BADGE.gif http://www.angelfire.com/oh/chelle26/handcuffs1gold.gif http://www.angelfire.com/oh5/kopspla...on_motorcy.gif http://www.angelfire.com/oh5/kopspla...s/tactical.gif

Kahlil Gibran | 06-30-2007 05:13 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnman (Post 650144) Never Never Never say anything to the police, that's your lawyers job. You have no reason to talk to the cops, it IS NOT required!
Agreed. One of my brothers is a cop and he told me to say "I have nothing to say at this time". We have the Right to remain silent.

cosrl | 06-30-2007 05:59 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Couple of other things I have learned besides not saying anything to the cops: One of the main pistol stances I learned (from several of the classes I have taken) was one where you take a step back. The reason for the step back (instead of forward or out to the side), is that you are now on the "defensive" ie moving away from the agressor, instead of becoming the agressor. Looks better in court. Also another good tip. After shooting the intruder, shoot a couple of rounds into the floor or ceiling. It makes the case that you were frightened and the victim. Here in Colorado we have a "Make My Day" law. Basically you can shoot any intruder into your home in self defense. But it does have some caveats, and has not always stood up in court (IIRC). Statute Text: (1) The general assembly hereby recognizes that the citizens of Colorado have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes. (2) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant. (3) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from criminal prosecution for the use of such force. (4) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force.

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Silverstone | 07-01-2007 01:17 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by demosfen (Post 650818) I recall reading a piece of advice that you should shoot to kill, because if you wound the guy, he will testify against you in court, his lawyer will twist the whole thing, you may end up paying his medical bills and disability, etc... So to answer your question, if you shoot someone and the bastard is still alive, keep shooting. :yippee:
Absolutely. And be careful about the attorney you pick too and how much you say. They can be as corrupt as the rest; who are their friends? If you shot someone of importance to the community, get an attorney OUTSIDE the community that has no ties or ties to an income from that jurisdiction. You'd be surprised how many shitty attorneys will roll their client over for their "important friends" and a bigger payoff later on down the line. If you're dealing with life in prison, be very very careful in choosing your attorney, other than that, don't say anything to the police, outside of "afraid for my life," and no offense to you, but since I don't understand the law or my rights, I was told by my previous attorney to never answer questions until I consulted him/her first, so I'm following his/her advice. If they persist, smile and say, as much "as I would like to cooperate with you, I really feel the need to consult my attorney first", and do the broken record with that statement until they give up. Honestly you don't even have to say that, but it shows you'd like to cooperate, but at the advice of your attorney, it's just not possible. The judge will see these transcripts.

demosfen | 07-01-2007 03:37 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverstone (Post 651418) I was told by my previous attorney to never answer questions until I consulted him/her first
The only things to talk about to the police, either before or after consulting a lawyer, are weather and baseball. A lawyer that advises you to talk to the police (or anyone else) after consulting him is either scamming you or is incompetent. Probably both. The only reason he wants you talk to the police is to consult you. Besides, they are trained in law school to be ineffective. Shooting a lawyer was the only good thing Cheney did while in the office.

Master_Ho | 07-03-2007 05:29 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense I was following this thread - and just found the following in my files - thought I would bump the thread and post this info - hope it helps someone one day...........>> HOW TO DEAL WITH POLICE OFFICERS - MAGIC WORDS?Author Unknown 6-14-06<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> When dealing with the police, keep your hands in view and don't make sudden movements. Avoid passing behind them. Nervous cops are dangerous cops. Also, never touch the police or their equipment (vehicles, flashlights, animals, etc.) - you can get beat up and charged with assault. The police do not decide your charges; they can only make recommendations. The prosecutor is the only person who can actually charge you. Remember this the next time the cops start rattling off all the charges they're supposedly "going to give you." Questioning Interrogation isn't always bright lights and rubber hoses - usually it's just a conversation. Whenever the cops ask you anything besides your name and address, it's legally safest to (respectfully) say these Magic Words: "I am going to remain silent. I want to see a lawyer." This invokes the rights which protect you from interrogation. When you say this, the cops (and all other law enforcement officials) are legally required to stop asking you questions. They probably won't stop, so just repeat the Magic Words or remain silent until they catch on. Remember, anything you say to the authorities can and will be used against you and your friends in court. There's no way to predict what information the police might try to use or how they'd use it. Plus, the police often misquote or lie altogether about what was said. So say only the Magic Words and let all the cops and witnesses know that this is your policy. Make sure that when you're arrested with other people, the rest of the group knows the Magic Words and promises to use them. One of the jobs of cops is to get information out of people, and they usually don't have any scruples about how they do it. Cops are legally allowed to lie when they're investigating, and they are trained to be manipulative. The only thing you should say to cops, other than identifying yourself, is the Magic Words: "I am going to remain silent. I want to see a lawyer." Here are some lies they will tell you: "You're not a suspect - just help us understand what happened here and then you can go." "If you don't answer my questions, I'll have no choice but to arrest you. Do you want to go to jail?" "If you don't answer my questions, I'm going to charge you with resisting arrest." "All of your friends have cooperated and we let them go home. You're the only one left." Cops are sneaky buggers and there are lots of ways they can trick you into talking. Here are some scams they'll pull: Good Cop/ Bad Cop: Bad cop is aggressive and menacing, while good cop is nice, friendly, and familiar (usually good cop is the same race and gender as you). The idea is bad cop scares you so bad you are desperately looking for a friend. Good cop is that friend. The cops will tell you that your friends ratted on you so that you will snitch on them. Meanwhile, they tell your friends the same thing. If anyone breaks and talks, you all go down. The cops will tell you that they have all the evidence they need to convict you and that if you "take responsibility" and confess the judge will be impressed by your honesty and go easy on you. What they really mean is: "we don't have enough evidence yet, please confess." Jail is a very isolating and intimidating place. It is really easy to believe what the cops tell you. Insist upon speaking with a lawyer before you answer any questions or sign anything. The Golden Rule: Never trust a cop. The Miranda Warnings The police do not have to read you your rights (also known as the Miranda warnings). Miranda applies when there is (a) an interrogation (b) by a police officer of other agent of law enforcement (c) while the suspect is in police custody (you do not have to be formally arrested to be "in custody"). Even when all these conditions are met, the police intentionally violate Miranda. And though your rights have been violated, what you say can be used against you. For this reason, it is better not to wait for the cops; you know what your rights are, so you can invoke them by saying the Magic Words, "I am going to remain silent. I want to see a lawyer." If you've been arrested and realize that you have started answering questions, don't panic. Just re-invoke your rights by saying the Magic Words again. Don't let them trick you into thinking that because you answered some of their questions, you have to answer all of them. Police Encounters There are three basic types of encounters with the police: Conversation, Detention, and Arrest. Conversation When the cops are trying to get information, but don't have enough evidence to detain or arrest you, they'll try to weasel some information out of you. They may call this a "casual encounter" or a "friendly conversation". If you talk to them, you may give them the information they need to arrest you or your friends. In most situations, it's better and safer not to talk to cops. Detention Police can detain you only if they have reasonable suspicion (see below) that you are involved in a crime. Detention means that, though you aren't arrested, you can't leave. Detention is supposed to last a short time and they aren't supposed to move you. During detention, the police can pat you down and go into your bag to make sure you don't have any weapons. They aren't supposed to go into your pockets unless they feel a weapon. If the police are asking questions, ask if you are being detained. If not, leave and say nothing else to them. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> If you are being detained, you may want to ask why. Then you should say the Magic Words: "I am going to remain silent. I want a lawyer" and nothing else. A detention can easily turn into arrest. If the police are detaining you and they get information that you are involved in a crime, they will arrest you, even if it has nothing to do with your detention. For example, if someone gets pulled over for speeding (detained) and the cop sees drugs in the car, the cops will arrest her for possession of the drugs even though it has nothing to do with her getting pulled over. Cops have two reasons to detain you: 1) they are writing you a citation (a traffic ticket, for example), or 2) they want to arrest you but they don't have enough information yet to do so. Arrest Police can arrest you only if they have probable cause (see below) that you are involved in a crime. When you are arrested, the cops can search you to the skin and go through you car and any belongings. By law, an officer strip searching you must be the same gender as you. If the police come to your door with an arrest warrant, go outside and lock the door behind you. Cops are allowed to search any room you go into, so don't go back into the house for any reason. If they have an arrest warrant, hiding won't help because they are allowed to force their way in if they know you are there. It's usually better to just go with them without giving them an opportunity to search. Reasonable Suspicion vs. Probable Cause Reasonable suspicion must be based on more than a hunch - cops must be able to put their suspicion into words. For example, cops can't just stop someone and say, "She looked like she was up to something." They need to be more specific, like, "She was standing under the overpass staring up at some graffiti that hadn't been there 2 hours ago. She had the same graffiti pattern written on her backpack. I suspected that she had put up the graffiti." Cops need more proof to say they have a probable cause than to say they have a reasonable suspicion. For example, "A store owner called to report someone matching her description tagging a wall across the street. As I drove up to the store, I saw her running away spattered with paint and carrying a spray can in her hand." Searches Never consent to a search! If the police try to search your house, car, backpack, pockets, etc. say the Magic Words 2: "I do not consent to this search." This may not stop them from forcing their way in and searching anyway, but if they search you illegally, they probably won't be able to use the evidence against you in court. You have nothing to lose from refusing to consent to a search and lots to gain. Do not physically resist cops when they are trying to search because you could get hurt and charged with resisting arrest or assault. Just keep repeating the Magic Words 2 so that the cops and all witnesses know that this is your policy. Be careful about casual consent. That is, if you are stopped by the cops and you get out of the car but don't close the door, they can search the car and claim that they though you were indicating consent by leaving the door ajar. Also, if you say, "I'd rather you didn't search," they can claim that you were reluctantly giving them permission to search. Always just say the Magic Words 2: "I do not consent to this search." If the cops have a search warrant, nothing changes - it's legally safest to just say the Magic Words 2. Again, you have nothing to lose from refusing to consent to a search, and lots to gain if the search warrant is incorrect or invalid in some way. If they do have a search warrant, ask to read it. A valid warrant must have a recent date (usually not more than a couple of weeks), the correct address, and a judge's or magistrate's signature; some warrants indicate the time of day the cops can search. You should say the Magic Words 2 whether or not the search warrant appears correct. The same goes for any government official who tries to search you, your belongings, or your house. Infiltrators and Informants Undercover cops sometimes infiltrate political organizations. They can lie about being cops even if asked directly. Undercover cops can even break the law (narcs get hazard pay for doing drugs as part of their cover) and encourage others to do so as well. This is not legally entrapment. FBI and other government agents The essence of the Magic Words "I'm keeping my mouth shut until I talk to a lawyer" not only applies to police but also to the FBI, INS, CIA, even IRS. If you want to be nice and polite, tell them that you don't wish to speak with them until you've spoken with your lawyer, or that you won't answer questions without a lawyer present. If you are being investigated as a result of your political activity, you can call the National Lawyers Guild at (415) 582-1055; they will help you find a lawyer you can talk to. Taking Notes Whenever you interact with or observe the police, always write down what is said and who said it. Write down the cops' names and badge numbers and the names and contact information of any witnesses. Record everything that happens. If you are expecting a lot of police contact, get in the habit of carrying a small tape recorder and a camera with you. Be careful - cops don't like people taking notes, especially if the cops are planning on doing something illegal. Observing them and documenting their actions may have very different results; for example, it may cause them to respond aggressively, or it may prevent them from abusing you or your friends. Conclusion People deal with police in all kinds of circumstances. You must make an individual decision about how you will interact with law enforcement. It is important to know your legal rights, but it is also important for you to decide when and how to use them in order to best protect yourself.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> More Sage Advice Refinements, from a student who is a well-known and respected criminal defense attorney: I cannot count the number of times I've heard a client say, 'They wanted to interview me, and we talked a little, but I didn't tell them ANYTHING. I was very careful.' Then, I get the discovery, including the reporton the interview. It invariably includes a full confession, plus additional damaging statements, repeated multiple times. Great beginning for our defensive strategy! The only thing that I believe a person should tell police who arrive at a hot scene (not all lawyers agree) is: (1) 'Thank heaven you're here!' (2) 'I'm the one who called.' (3) 'A man broke into our house and tried to murder us.' (tweak as necessary) (4) 'I'll be happy to answer all your questions, as soon as my lawyer is here.' The only additional statements I advise are: Tell arriving officers about: (1) active threats, (2) innocent people in the area (3) evidence, and (4) witnesses. <o:p></o:p> These are important to the case, to the safety of officers and others, and may not be obvious. Those statements, while still not risk-free, are appropriate and reasonable, and I think there is a moral duty to provide information which DIRECTLY effects the safety of officers and the discovery of truth."

Goldhedge | 07-03-2007 06:04 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Absolutely true! Cops advertise they are there "To Serve and Protect" what they don't tell you is they do that for the Corporate State Government. Schools teach you to "Trust Officer Friendly" at a very young age. TV shows also portray cops in a 'good light', but they are actors for a reason. Also: "You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" is a misnomer. So, there are many influences in society to get you to talk. The police do not serve and protect - they are there as the mop up crew. They don't want to have a case load any more than most folks want a job deadline hanging over their head. If it goes unsolved it looks like they aren't doing their job. The COP IS NOT YOUR FRIEND...they could care less about your a$$ if you are in jail....

DBcooper | 07-03-2007 08:01 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense If you can and no witness RUN,or a mutli caliber weapon always helps if you get caught(remeber to ditch one caliber) and use some steel wiring on the inside of the bore of the gun (slugs distort). Attorneys cost money and courts take time better to just avoid any situation,either way your screwed dealing with the law these days ,aside from a home invasion or you get shot first and live to tell the cops about it.

Darkside | 07-03-2007 08:36 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho (Post 653318) I was following this thread - and just found the following in my files - thought I would bump the thread and post this info - hope it helps someone one day...........>> ...
Wow awesome, thanks so much for posting this!

Dieselman | 07-03-2007 08:43 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Admit nothing Deny everything Demand proof

<SLV> | 07-03-2007 09:04 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieselman (Post 653473) Admit nothing Deny everything Demand proof
Welcome to GIM! ... do you speak from experience?

Anty Ep | 07-05-2007 10:41 AM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense interesting comments here that show some of the nuances of the problem Quote:
Originally Posted by demosfen (Post 649639) I once was questioned by the police after having an argument with some nutty woman, first thing they did was to ask me (very friendly), "So, what happened?". Silly me, I confessed to everything.
Not an uncommon situation. Who hasnt had an argument with a spouse or a live in? I have heard many times of the woman who calls 911 because she is "scared." A lot of women think that they can bitch, holler, throw stuff, even hit a guy, and that's ok, but if a man raises his voice, it's 9-1-1 time. well if that happens you better switch gears fast. In the situation where a man's confronted with this quandry, a domestic call, if the gal isnt looking like she's been clobbered, often the thing to do is meet the polizei calmly on the front porch-- outside the home-- and tell them your side of the story, which should be the truth, and which in most cases for most guys I have talked to is simply that you never laid a finger on her, but you were in a place you had a right to be, and when she hollered at you, you hollered back, and now ossifer wouldnt you please go confirm that with her. whereas, in this situation if you clam up, and look suspicious, rather than calm and confident, you may just push their "reasonable suspicion" over to "probable cause." if the objective is not to get arrested, as opposed to not getting convicted, sometimes you have to talk a little bit. BUT LETS BE CLEAR-- WE ARENT TALKING A SITUATION WHERE THERE'S BEEN A SHOOTING! In that situation you dont worry about getting arrested-- who cares about that-- you worry about not getting convicted. Quote:
They will read you your Miranda rights AFTER they get all the information from you, and then testify against you in court.
That is the Modus operandi alright. If you're only being "detained" in an "investigation" then you are free to answer or not answer. If you stupidly answer and incriminate yourself, that's your problem and the fifth amendment is not an issue. Here's another tip. Dont lie. If you cant answer honestly dont answer. That's the bottom line: you dont have to incriminate yourself. But if you lie, you can be proven a liar, and then you've incriminated yourself indirectly. Tricky bidness aint it?

Anty Ep | 07-05-2007 10:44 AM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by DBcooper (Post 653446) If you can and no witness RUN,or a mutli caliber weapon always helps if you get caught(remeber to ditch one caliber) and use some steel wiring on the inside of the bore of the gun (slugs distort). .
If you modify a weapon you use in self defense you better be able to explain why in front of a jury. For this reason Massad Ayoob and others recommend using out-of-the-box handguns for self defense and NOT race guns modified for IPSC or whatever. Prosecutors will try to play up "hair trigger jobs" and so forth and make you into a drooling gun nut./ Same thing is true of pocketknives. If you really think you may need to use one in self defense, better it's something innocuous looking, neutral, than a psycho "rambo knife" or whatever.

Big_Rob | 07-05-2007 10:55 AM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense The 5 words are your friend. "I have nothing to say"

shades2 | 07-05-2007 12:47 PM
Re: What to do if you shoot someone in self-defense Quote:
Originally Posted by skytrooper (Post 653466) These days I don't see wanting to speak to your lawyer before talking to Police in a serious case will really hurt anyone. Most Juries know how serious things are today and they also realize that the Police are not always knights in shining armor. I also can't even imagine the fact that you wanted to speak with counsel before being interviewed by the Police even being allowed to be presented in court as that's your right. My view is the Police don't like ANYONE using lethal force for self defense but them. "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away." Anonymous
Let me first say, I think most cops (at least locally) do a good job, but when they go in with the mindset that you are the guilty party, without a presumption of innocence, you are in real trouble. I should have clarified what I was saying, that you shouldn't talk in an interrogation without speaking to your lawyer first or having your lawyer present. You are likely to incriminate yourself, even if you were innocent. eg. cop: so you were at the 7-11 near Philmore and Lake. jon: yes I was there. cop: and the time was 12:31am? jon: yes, there or abouts. cop: and there was a dead body in the carpark? jon: yeah I saw a body there. cop: and you were near the gun. jon: about 6 feet from it. cop: what were you doing there? jon: buying groceries. cop: you expect us to believe that? Buying groceries at 12:31am and you're near a dead body and a gun? C'mon jon, I don't think you're being truthful with us. You shot the guy and threw the gun away! jon: but.. but.. I heard some bangs and came outside, saw people running and saw the body and the gun clattered to the floor. cop: I see you were wearing gloves. jon: my hands were cold, it was 10 below! cop: When we showed up you were the only one there, ready to confess? jon... in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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