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Heimdhal | 06-27-2009 09:44 PM
Bugging out...with kids! Theres lots of talk on here about getting bug-out bags ready just in case, and all of that. I think its a great idea, just another level of preparedness. My greatest...conundrum....however is trying to figure out how one would do it with a toddler(2-3 1/2). They are old enough to walk, but not well, and to young to hike long distances. I was thinking of using things like the Baby Bjorn(correct me if Im wrong on the name) where you can strap em to you back, but the down side to that is...well...strapping a toddler to your back. It also limits the amount of gear one person can carry. If I have a 30-40 pound pack and my wife has a 20-30 pound pack and were on foot, its gonna be tough to put a 30-40 pound, squirming, wriggling, crying, anxoious and annoyed toddler. The best solution I have thought of is obviosly having transportation, but that amy not always bee an option. Second is staying put, but again, that may not be option either. So this is just to spit ball and trouble shoot in case the real thing comes.

MNeagle | 06-27-2009 09:47 PM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! Baby Bjorn's are front wearing. Get a tough stroller, it'll handle quite a bit of gear too. Or a wagon?

Heimdhal | 06-27-2009 09:51 PM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! Quote:
Originally Posted by MNeagle (Post 1789923) Baby Bjorn's are front wearing. Get a tough stroller, it'll handle quite a bit of gear too. Or a wagon?
Yeah, you're right, they are front wearing. We had one when our little one was littler, but we never really used it. Still it would add significant weight to what one person(ME!) would be carrying. There was a time when a 60 or 70 pound load was nothing, but not any more :( I was thinking one of those heft "off road" strollers, not sure a wagon would work. Florida is pretty flat, so that helps, but its pretty dense too.

silverblood | 06-27-2009 09:53 PM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! Florida? Boat. And mosquito repellent.

mightymanx | 06-27-2009 09:53 PM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! My daughter is almost 2 and this is also a concern for me. Here is my plan: My bug out bags have gear rings on the shoulder straps and so I hook a book bag strap between them and adjust it till it droops down to the upper waist level, so she can sit in it like a painters swing either facing out to look around or facing me to sleep as I walk. My daughter has completed a 2 mile hike so she can put some distance in each day. the Baby Bijorn is too small for toddlers (at least the one I have). I plan on bearing her most of the time unless threat level dictates otherwise then she goes to my wife who has the same set up and then we go single file, wife/kid directly behind me. Now I only have to teach her to cover her ears if I need to make sudden loud noises (gunfire).

bwelkk | 06-27-2009 10:12 PM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymanx (Post 1789933) Now I only have to teach her to cover her ears if I need to make sudden loud noises (gunfire).
Why not slap some plugs in her ears the whole trip?

mightymanx | 06-27-2009 10:45 PM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! Quote:
Originally Posted by bwelkk (Post 1789956) Why not slap some plugs in her ears the whole trip?
I thought of it but then it would be hard to obey normal verbal commands I am working on a "Duck and Cover" variation where she tucks her face covers her ears and opens her mouth.

Tn...Andy | 06-28-2009 03:15 AM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! Anyone thinking of "bugging out" should read today's Survival Blog ( Sunday, 6/28 ) for a letter on the subject that says exactly what I've said all along: you are likely toast. http://www.survivalblog.com/

Maddie | 06-28-2009 04:53 AM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! Carrying a kid that large isn't going to be practical. I'd suggest getting one of those Chariot carriers that, with the proper conversion kits, can either be pushed like a stroller/jogger, pulled by a hiker (or skier) using a harness or pulled by a bike. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to get a bike to go with it. REI sells them. Chariot with a hiking conversion kit: http://www.rei.com/product/705794

smilershouse | 06-28-2009 05:46 AM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! Where there is a will there is also a way. When your children's welfare and safekeeping is at stake, you can be sure that, as a parent, you will always find a way. SH

obilly | 06-28-2009 08:26 AM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! toddlers would present a young and tender option,,,,when the SHTF,,,don't forget the BBQ sauce.

Professur | 06-28-2009 08:51 AM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! I've got one like this. Puts the weight on your hips if you adjust the waist belt correctly, and keeps your hands free. I've run with a 40lbs youngster in it without difficulty. In fact, if you start firearms training early enough, you've got yourself a turret gunner back there;)

Barrettone | 06-28-2009 10:59 AM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! Quote:
Originally Posted by obilly (Post 1790442) toddlers would present a young and tender option,,,,when the SHTF,,,don't forget the BBQ sauce.
Yer one sick puppy...

igorthesmall | 06-28-2009 11:11 AM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! Quote:
Originally Posted by Tn...Andy (Post 1790291) Anyone thinking of "bugging out" should read today's Survival Blog ( Sunday, 6/28 ) for a letter on the subject that says exactly what I've said all along: you are likely toast. http://www.survivalblog.com/
Great, now you had to go and ruin everyone's fantasy of slinging a kid onto their back and heading for the hills to live out their life in a garden of eden while the poor suckers back in the city who didnt pick out a great backpack for their kids get to end up fighting each other for the scraps!

Heimdhal | 06-28-2009 11:56 AM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! Quote:
Originally Posted by Tn...Andy (Post 1790291) Anyone thinking of "bugging out" should read today's Survival Blog ( Sunday, 6/28 ) for a letter on the subject that says exactly what I've said all along: you are likely toast. http://www.survivalblog.com/
Bugging out doesnt just simply mean heading to the hills and living like a mountain man, it just means getting from point and to point be and being prepared. Look at any wartorn eastern european country(or any country for that matter) and look at the hoardes of civilians fleeing. Look at katrina, or any other major city destroyed by natural disaster, and youll see hoardes of civilians fleeing. I live in a major Hurricane area. "Bugging Out" is a very real possibility to me and I want to be prepared for it. THe first, obvious option is to load up the car and get to our secondary or tirshirary locations, which are family members houses rather far away. If for some reason the roads become impassible, then being on foot needs to be an option. For that, I need to prepare my kids. It would be nice if we all lived on an eastern tennesee farm with a fully stocked, year round supply of food from the garden the livestock, but we all dont and if for some reason we need to leave where we are at, we must be prepared. This is just another level of preparedness. EDIT: I didnt see in the survival blog where it said bugging out means your toat. I only saw where it said that domestic terrorist are going to come to your church and kill you while you worship so let the SWAT team come in and do a run through of the church so they can take down the Terrorist better when they come to blow you up.

electric-amish | 06-28-2009 12:29 PM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! Bug in if at all possible. Reasonably you can not guarantee your transportation and routes are able to handle the masses and potential damage. Dig deep-dig hard---Make Air filters and air locks-- Not doing the Bomb shelter thing takes you to another direction. Get out of dense areas and set up sustainable production of Important things. Best to everyone. E-A

Tn...Andy | 06-28-2009 12:57 PM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimdhal (Post 1790633) Bugging out doesnt just simply mean heading to the hills and living like a mountain man, it just means getting from point and to point be and being prepared. It would be nice if we all lived on an eastern tennesee farm with a fully stocked, year round supply of food from the garden the livestock, but we all dont and if for some reason we need to leave where we are at, we must be prepared. This is just another level of preparedness. EDIT: I didnt see in the survival blog where it said bugging out means your toat. I only saw where it said that domestic terrorist are going to come to your church and kill you while you worship so let the SWAT team come in and do a run through of the church so they can take down the Terrorist better when they come to blow you up.
Read on down....it's the second letter of the day. To wit: ( With full credit given to James Rawles' Survival Blog, linked above) Letter Re: Last Minute G.O.O.D. Versus Well-Considered Early Relocation James - We think along similar lines, as my wife and I relocated to Central Idaho in 1995, raising and homeschooling our four children here. We're electrically functioning off the grid, engage in animal husbandry, grow what vegetables we can, and stock up on essentials we cannot produce and always meticulously rotate the stock. And we hunt, big time. I read the entry on your site today about the fellow who intends to travel ore than a thousand miles in a blink of an eye, and use this blur to make a life-changing decision based on distorted glances at sixty miles an hour. Though I agree with essentially every bit of advice regarding location considerations, and in particular what to avoid, perhaps you should suggest to this fellow to split his trip into two or three, perhaps even four excursions so he can really evaluate what he is looking at. I've lived in the west my entire life, a witness to the destruction of Colorado as we finally fled the far reaches of the West Slope for here. Knowing that one simple mistake in terms of selecting a location can be fatal in and unto itself, we began looking in 1993 and through 1994 before making our selection. Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana. Distance from population centers was number two on our criteria list, but as you well know, the number one priority must be water. People in the cities haven't really a clue as to its relative scarcity. Turn on the tap. Our criteria was "live, year-around creek" on the prospective dirt, or it was scrubbed from the list. At 8.37 pounds per gallon, you can't realistically haul enough any distance for survival if survival means growing food if TEOTWAWKI actually occurs. Maybe not enough to use just to satiate thirst if you are too far from the source. Let's face it. If people have to actually "Bug Out", the "End" is happening, right there and then. Think: water, water, water, and location, location, location. I wrote a piece about "relocation" a few years back for a Peak Oil web site that generated several thousand comments, the vast majority of them were positive. The negatives were from the Gold's Gym-type jerks who thought I was trying to come off as some kind of tough guy, which I wasn't. "Realism" offends people. You cut one cord short on firewood before winter and the snows get hip-deep, you are dead. Sometimes you have "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" with large critters equipped with teeth and claws. I killed a damned lion at six feet inside my barn who was upset that I was upset that he had killed my milk goats. A bear at thirty feet on top of one of our sheep who was none too happy with me either. The wolves are here constantly, and that's just a time bomb waiting to go off. We've had jerks from cities show up on the place acting, and to be kind here, just a little "weird". Occasionally and unfortunately what followed were "in your face" armed confrontations, required to convince them getting the hell out of here was a damn good idea. Which leads to another situation that is always notably absent from writings about "Getting out of Dodge". Why isn't it mentioned that people are already "out there", and even if a person chooses to relocate before the fan is blowing manure that it takes a couple of years before the indigenous outlanders accept your presence. These pre-existing folks, as you well know, traded off the easy living the cities offer for a harder lifestyle that almost guarantees austere living. The F.N.G. is a newcomer, and no one knows whether her/she is a curse or a blessing. The number of drug-laden scum that has floated in and out of here over the years is pretty amazing, let alone the flood of retirees who ain' t worth knowing. A third of them want sidewalks along Forest Service Roads. And then when things go south, some guy, regardless of what color collar he wore to work, abandons his 52" widescreen HDTV, his Budweiser and the N.F.L. Package, throws his "Git-R-Done" stuff in the 4-Runner. Off he goes, carrying just enough with him to guarantee that where he ends up, thieving and murdering is going to be happening. Why? Because he's in a panic regardless of how "cool" he thinks he is. In truth, if you don't already live "out there", you aren't prepared. City folk are waiting to run, and they are running to nowhere. For that matter, half the people who are already "out there" aren't really prepared. But City Folks simply cannot take with them what is needed long-term to survive, and even short-term if winter is upon them. So, he is going to become a thief and a murderer. Where he's headed he doesn't own dirt, has no roof over his head, and he hasn't got the food to last a month. The most moral man in the world will become the worst of sinners when facing starvation. Add a man with his woman and a passel of kids, and you've got a desperate man. "Honey, I starved the kids!" I don't think so. So, what do you think folks around here are thinking anyway? Putting out the "Welcome Wagon" for an exodus of people who refused to sacrifice ahead of time? Those who have been living easy and going to Applebees every Friday night? The wife blowing money at the mall every Saturday with the rest of the "girls"? People who thought, "I'll stay here doing the 9-5 because the woman insists, and then we'll go if we have to." Here's another good one: "We didn't want to move and have to change schools. The kids really liked it there." The foregoing mean that the "Old Lady" and the "kids" have been dictating his life anyway, right? You ever seen these women go through "Mall Withdrawal"? Good God, it's a terrible sight to behold even under good conditions! At least when things are "normal" they can head over the pass for a methadone-like "Mall-Fix" up in Missoula or head to Idaho Falls. Shoot, you go and "Cold Turkey" a mall-dependent woman and h**l doesn't even begin to describe the price that must be paid! It's viral too, I swear. Seriously though, is there some assumption that such "exodus scenarios" aren't discussed by the locals down at the cafe's in Salmon, Challis, and Elk, Bend, and North Fork over morning coffee, as well as at the Sheriffs Departments around here? My understanding is that the roads in and out of here are to be closed, which is fine by me. There isn't much bounty here to begin with, and adding a bunch of instant vagabonds will simply be making meager pickings that much slimmer. Fools rushing for the hills. There's a steep learning curve and most aren't going to make it. Best regards, and keep up the good work - John M. and one more from Thursday, June 25th Avoiding Bugging Out, by Steve M. One core tenet of the Survival and Preparation (S&P) culture that is often misunderstood, misapplied and has a high probability of failing, and that is �the bug-out�. I am prompted to write this after reading so many S&P-related books, blogs and forums where individuals are indicating that their primary plan, and the focus of their preparations, is bugging-out. The common discussion topics of bug-out vehicles (BOV), bug-out bags (BOB), bug-out land, etc, and the overall S&P lexicon confirm the importance placed on the bug-out concept. Although well organized and executed, a 1,600 mile bug-out is portrayed by some of �The Group� in the novel "Patriots". Don�t misunderstand, bugging-out does have a role in S&P: if your residence becomes completely uninhabitable, for any number of reasons (earthquake, radiation, toxins, fire, destruction, war, etc.), then relocation is mandatory. In these cases, being prepared to mobilize and relocate yourself, your family, and some resources is vitally important. Such situations force the prepper to implement Plan B. The problems with bugging-out are both numerous and severe, and are to be avoided or countered, if possible: * Only a small, finite quantity of supplies can be transported * Dependency on replenishing supplies is created * A good place to relocate may not be found or actually available even if prearranged. * It may not be possible to travel (impassable roads, vehicle failure) * You may not be welcomed by the residents of where you relocate or in the territory that you pass through * An operational BOV creates an attractive target if it appears to be transporting anything of value and due to the minimal security that can be provided It has been well established by this blog and many S&P de facto leaders that outside of a few specific circumstances, the primary plan, Plan A, should always be to bug-in. Staying at your primary home has many advantages: * More food/fuel/shelter resources can be available * The facility can be better maintained due to your frequent access * Better established social connections and greater access to shared resources * Less need for transportation and transportation fuel * Avoids health and safety risks associated with travel * Higher levels of security are possible The problem arises when lack of adequate, fundamental preparation results in the need to bug-out, when it otherwise could have been avoided. In other words, Plan A (bugging-in at your primary home) must be abandoned unnecessarily and prematurely, and Plan B (the secondary and far worse choice) becomes the only option, due to the prepper�s own actions or inactions. People frequently write about how their urban home would be unsustainable, over-ran, or likely destroyed in many potential scenarios. Therefore their preps focus on bugging-out. When times are good and relative tranquility prevails, there are many attractions to an urban lifestyle, with job availability at the top of the list. Recognizing the added risk and difficulty of post-SHTF survival in the urban setting, preppers often abandon bug-in preparations, relegating themselves to bugging-out. Different life choices, such as small town or rural living, or taking extraordinary efforts to prepare their urban home, increase the viability of Plan A. For me and many others, the post-SHTF advantages of rural life are secondary to the quality of life enjoyed in these slower-paced environs. The math doesn�t support bugging-out. If one assumes that there are 305 million Americans and about 2.3 billion acres within the US, it sounds promising that there are 7.4 acres available to each American to which to bug-out. So a family of four should get almost 30 acres, right? Taking a closer look, inhospitable open cultivated farmland, open pasture, desert, wet lands, and bodies of water can largely be eliminated as places to which to relocate. Although these places could be inhabited, they are less attractive than �heading for the hills� as is often cited as the bug-out plan. What about the nation�s forests? There are about 747 million acres of forest that appear to be available for relocation. Data suggest there are 50 million �rural� Americans, and 255 million �urban� Americans. So we have some part of 255 million people that currently reside in about 60 million urban acres, looking to relocate on something like 757 million forested acres, which is about 3 acres per refugee. Not only is this not much space in which to live and forage, but: * There will be great demand for suitable locations close to urban centers * Space will not be assigned, so there will be competition for choice space * In a hunting-gathering mode, refugees will be forced to cover a wide area (hundreds of acres) in search of sustenance * Rural folks already are there, feel (and have legal) ownership, and are willing to protect their Plan A bug-in position In conclusion, I advise that one of two actions be taken to reduce the need for depending on a bug-out strategy: * Commit to and prepare for bugging-in, regardless of your current residency. Fortify your home, stock up on supplies there, and implement countermeasures to unique urban challenges. �Improvise, adapt, overcome� as necessary. * Relocate to a place where bugging-in can be more practically implemented in as many scenarios as possible. My intent was not to insult, Heimdhal....nor to gloat about my place.....it was to point out that I truly believe to plan on 'bugging out' in a SHTF situation is a death sentence most likely for you and your family. There are plenty of excuses why people live in areas that will not be livable in a SHTF situation.....the biggest is probably they are simply unaware....followed by job, extended family, etc.... BUT once you become aware, I believe you owe it to your family to move to the location you would bug out too....and learn to live there. This, of course, does not apply to a temporary situation like a storm.....I refer to permanent breakdown of society as we know it.

mtnman | 06-28-2009 01:03 PM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! Quote:
Originally Posted by obilly (Post 1790442) toddlers would present a young and tender option,,,,when the SHTF,,,don't forget the BBQ sauce.
Soylent Green is People!

mtnman | 06-28-2009 01:10 PM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! A good mountain bike with a pull behind might just fit your needs. http://www.electric-bikes.com/bikes/trailers.html

Heimdhal | 06-28-2009 01:50 PM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! Quote:
Originally Posted by Tn...Andy (Post 1790712) My intent was not to insult, Heimdhal....nor to gloat about my place.....it was to point out that I truly believe to plan on 'bugging out' in a SHTF situation is a death sentence most likely for you and your family. There are plenty of excuses why people live in areas that will not be livable in a SHTF situation.....the biggest is probably they are simply unaware....followed by job, extended family, etc.... BUT once you become aware, I believe you owe it to your family to move to the location you would bug out too....and learn to live there. This, of course, does not apply to a temporary situation like a storm.....I refer to permanent breakdown of society as we know it.
I, actualy, would like to apologize to YOU. I was thinking of a response to your post when I read another post, by an in-house troll(not hard to figure out whom) and it got me a little heated. Most of my post was not directed at you, but at another, and I didnt put his post in quotes. I was trying to snap at you or anything. It was misdirected at the wrong person and I am sorry for that. I am with you in the fact that an 'aware' person should do what they can to live in a sustainable environment. My wife and I are working very hard toward this end but with her working at our family business in the "city" and I a "disabled" stay at home dad, things are hard. I would love nothing more than what you and wife have done and I feel the time to build that life is coming closer and closer to its end. Its going to be some years for us until we can do it in full, and so instead I must prepare myself and my family as best I can to ride out whatever may come in that iterim, which means covering all possible angles. I have friends and family in various parts of the state and country that would be able to assist if for some reason our region needed to be abandoned and this is the purpose of bugging out. Get in the car and get out of dodge so to speak. Marines are taught to cover all angles and overcome, improvise and adapt and that means planning adead :) So again, I am sorry if I came off harsh to you. I have nothing but the ut-most respect for you, brother.

Tn...Andy | 06-28-2009 02:32 PM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! And you as well.....I meant the best, really. Each family situation is clearly different, and generalizations should not be applied. But I do fear many with a bug out plan will find, like battle plans....the plan doesn't survive first contact with the enemy... ( G. Patton, I think )

Tn...Andy | 06-28-2009 02:44 PM
Re: Bugging out...with kids! Quote:
Originally Posted by obilly (Post 1790442) toddlers would present a young and tender option,,,,when the SHTF,,,don't forget the BBQ sauce.
Fortunately for you, piss poor taste in humor isn't a cause for banning.

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