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JJ_ | 01-06-2010 01:43 PM
Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options I hope TA or mamboni might comment on this.. Quote:
Letter Re: More About Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options By James Wesley, Rawles on <ABBR class=published title=2010-01-03T23:21:25-05:00>January 3, 2010 11:21 PM</ABBR> Introductory Note from JWR: Warning! The following article is presented for educational purposes only. As previously discussed in SurvivalBlog, using vinyl ether or chloroform for anesthesia can be very tricky. Both can induce deep levels of sedation much more quickly than desired. Thus, at a minimum can can compromise the patient's airway, and thereby very possibly kill the patient. So unless you have both the equipment and the regularly-practiced expertise to safely intubate and extubate your patient, then do not use vinyl ether or chloroform. Chloroform is also a known carcinogen. Generally, local anesthetics are the best choices for austere medicine! You should only consider using a general anesthetic when there are absolutely no other options, and when aid from trained medical professionals is absolutely unavailable! Merry Christmas Jim, I'd like to add something to your knowledge concerning "do it yourself anesthetics": chloroform. Be advised: chloroform is carcinogenic and should only be used if no safer alternatives (including no sedation and no operation) are available. Synthesis should only be carried out with regard to proper safety procedures (ventilation, eye protection, ...) and consideration for any pertinent laws. I am not a doctor, I do not have any formal medical training. I do however hold a degree in chemistry, I have synthesized chloroform and used it to carry out extractions of organic compounds. Chloroform has long been used as an anesthetic as well as being a common chemical in many laboratories. It went out of use in medical practice as its carcinogenic nature became known. Yes, this stuff will increase your risk of contracting cancer and should only be used after due consideration. The decision to go ahead and use this on an elderly person will be taken differently than when dealing with a youth for instance. Production I am not a doctor, I will not advise you on how to use chloroform. I will however teach you how to manufacture it. The easiest way to manufacture chloroform is by reacting a methyl ketone with chlorine dissolved in an aqueous environment. In plain English: by mixing bleach with acetone. "Bleach" being any plain hypochlorite bleach solution, will react with acetone and form Acetic acid and chloroform. Chloroform will separate from the solution and float on top. (Theoretically, methyl ethyl ketone [aka 2-Butanone; ethyl methyl ketone, or MEK] could be used instead of acetone, I have no experience with this) The purest product can be obtained by taking a small amount of bleach and slowly (while stirring) adding drops of acetone in solution until no more chloroform forms. (this minimizes the loss of acetone through evaporation which poses a potential fire hazard) The top layer can be off quite well, but it will be difficult to get every drop without spilling some concentrated acetic acid over as well. A better separation can be accomplished with a separatory funnel, if available. The amount of each chemical can be difficult to calculate in advance as the purity/concentration of bleach is not a constant, if it is even accurately labeled. There are differences between sodium- ,potassium-and calcium hypochlorite to take into account. You need (ideal ratios) 3.8 grams of sodium hypochlorite bleach for every gram of acetone, or 30 grams per 10 ml of acetone, this would yield roughly 5 ml of chloroform. You will need a sizable amount of bleach to produce enough chloroform to keep someone sedated for any period of time. The produced chloroform should be washed with water to flush out as much bleach and acetic acid as possible. Mix chloroform with half its volume of water, stir well and pour off the water. Do this twice and your chloroform is ready for storage or use. "A text-book of practical organic chemistry" by Vogel Lists a more advanced method of producing Chloroform. A web search on "Vogel chemistry" should allow you to review the book in .pdf format on one of the many sites which host it. I would wholeheartedly advise a couple of decent chemistry books in every survival library (aseptics, medication, explosives, glue, dye, ... your modern life is supported by practical chemistry, do you know anything about it?) Uses Chloroform can be used as an anesthetic by a qualified anesthesiologist. In addition, it may be used as a recreational drug by those truly daft or already dying and therefore may qualify as bartering tender. A far better use is its use as an apolar solvent. Ether can be used to extract organic compounds from biological matter. For example: the aroma's from flowers, natural dyes and alkalo�ds. (Alkalo�ds including the active compounds from narcotic and/or medicinal plants.) Generally, the chloroform is distilled off after the extraction is complete, preferably under vacuum to preserve the extracted compound. The acetic acid can be purified by boiling off any remaining acetone and most water. There may be small amounts of bleach present. This concentrated acetic acid can be diluted to make strong vinegar. I suppose this vinegar may be useful as a cleaning agent. I doubt it could be considered food safe and useful for food preservation or preparation. Dehydration to yield acetic anhydride would be a chemists preferred destination, but is highly illegal under current drug precursor regulations. Hazards (The following is not an exhaustive list of the hazards associated with chloroform) Chloroform is carcinogenic and contact should be avoided! Do not inhale the fumes or ingest, avoid skin contact. Chloroform is relatively fire-safe, making it suited for many extractions as it can be distilled off (though presently largely replaced by alternatives) Storage Chloroform must be kept away from light, ideally in an amber glass bottle in a cool room not prone to extreme temperature shifts. I'd also a bit on chloral hydrate as well, but aside from me not having any practical experience with its synthesis, that sort of information may attract the wrong kind of attention (criminals as well as those who hunt them). Still, if you need a powerful sleeping aid post SHTF, any "lab" chemist should be able to synthesize some for you if you bring alcohol, sulphuric acid, salt and a source of electricity or hypochlorite powder. Happy new year and many a year after! - Hawkins
http://www.survivalblog.com/2010/01/...post-shtf.html

State of Jefferson | 01-06-2010 03:06 PM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options A more practical, available, and safer anesthetic: http://www.madonarosa.sk/obr/v/whisky_jim_beam.jpg (I don't drink, but I'll learn if I need emergency field surgery)

madhu | 01-06-2010 03:28 PM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options Chloroform is arrythmogenic, meaning it can trigger irregular beating of the heart and people may die of ventricular fibrillation. But i didnt know it was so simple to produce chloroform. A safer alternative is ketamine.

renegade_01 | 01-06-2010 04:09 PM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options you can get poppy seeds online and figure out the rest from there....

Plastic | 01-06-2010 04:11 PM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options Cannabis...

TechGuy | 01-06-2010 05:23 PM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options http://www.share-winning.com/xiaoyi/...4034533466.jpg

Plastic | 01-06-2010 05:43 PM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options LOL@TechGuy!!!

FeS2 | 01-06-2010 06:56 PM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sxMGxz6-oTs&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sxMGxz6-oTs&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

CrufflerJJ | 01-06-2010 07:26 PM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options Quote:
Originally Posted by madhu (Post 2111735) Chloroform is arrythmogenic, meaning it can trigger irregular beating of the heart and people may die of ventricular fibrillation.
Yup...nasty arrhythmias. Same thing can happen to "huffers" who use freon. Also seen with some inhalation general anesthetics no longer popular in the US like Halothane (since replaced by sevo/des/isoflurane).

branshew | 01-06-2010 09:29 PM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options Grow your own. If TSHTF, I don't think that anyone would really care if you had a few of these in your back yard. http://www.marijuana-picture.com/gal...na_growing.jpg

Silvestor | 01-06-2010 10:26 PM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options I don't think Cannabis is very useful when a appendage needs to be removed. Here buddy, take a puff, you will be fine. :wub: Diethyl ether is probably a better choice than chloroform.

mightymanx | 01-07-2010 12:46 AM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options Moderate dose of alcohol for relaxation pre-op then Nitrous oxide for when you have to get to work. Automotive nitrous oxide will not work it is tainted with sulpher to prevent you from wanting to breathe it.

gunDriller | 01-07-2010 07:43 AM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options about 20 years ago i had a wisdom tooth removed (without anaesthetic), then i had a test for an electronics class later that day. i used a variety of marijuana known as Hash-plant to survive it. just smoked a bunch, got a B+ on the test, went home & collapsed. once when i had food poisoning they gave me injections of 50 micrograms and 75 micrograms Fentanyl. didn't help the stomach pain but it was remarkable how all the other pain went away. they were wiggling a needle around in my arm, trying to draw blood i guess, which normally would hurt. no prob. i suggest having syringes with Fentanyl and suturing materials (including something to wash a wound out with). and, of course, antibiotics. WHISKEY - DUAL USE. painkiller and topical antibiotic. VERY USEFUL !

Texasrunner43 | 01-07-2010 10:10 AM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymanx (Post 2112750) Moderate dose of alcohol for relaxation pre-op then Nitrous oxide for when you have to get to work. Automotive nitrous oxide will not work it is tainted with sulpher to prevent you from wanting to breathe it.
Go to a party store and you can buy a box of small Nitrous gas cartiages. They are used for whiped cream or something if I remenber correctly. Use to do that when I was young and we were going to the Dead shows.

branshew | 01-07-2010 08:15 PM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvestor (Post 2112561) I don't think Cannabis is very useful when a appendage needs to be removed.
True, but it sure would help with the pre "surgery" anxiety and post "surgery" pain control. Perhaps if enough was consumed one might pass out and sleep through the procedure.

Maddie | 01-07-2010 08:20 PM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options If the SHTF: Grow Papaver somniferum poppies. Learn to extract the opiates.

Unclad Lad | 01-08-2010 05:52 PM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options If you aren't allergic to opiates, that is. I read, many years ago, about surgery without anesthesia but using hypnosis instead. This appears to be a fairly balanced article: http://www.institute-shot.com/hypnosis_pain_utility.htm

TheNocturnalEgyptian | 01-08-2010 09:27 PM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options I found a study once on pubmed that I now cannot find, which detailed cannabis to be a slightly better topical pain reliever than morphine. However, for gruesome surgury, give me the damned papaver somniferum. Both would really be ideal. They are both fairly easy to grow and process in a post SHTF world and would be my first two choicse, albeit for different applications. However, to make topical salves from cannabis you will be needing some alcohol or comprable solvent.

occamsrazor | 01-09-2010 02:49 AM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options I hate to say it but WTSHTF I`m stocking up on the best coke and heroin+grass I could get.Heroin for general anesthesia and pain relief,coke injected in case of minor surgery as a local anesthetic.Also,they will be worth infinitely more than any PMs and may serve well for the last party b4 checking out with a massive H overdose or a gunshot. Brompton cocktail and SHTF really go together....

madhu | 01-09-2010 05:13 AM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options When shtf, there will be doctors willing to take care of people. You may not be able to demand whatever, but hopefully u can get emergency care. Dont know how health care reform is going to affect the emergency care facilities

occamsrazor | 01-09-2010 05:29 AM
Re: Post-SHTF Anesthetic Medicine Options WTSHTF docs will be euthanizing them as they did during Katrina.In that situation I`ll prefer to euthanize myself.Maintain a connection with an honest dope dealer,get a few girls,party like it`s Reichstag in April 29,1945 and then do it yourself. I`m not a dog and will go out of this world by my own hand rather than waiting for the Blackwater goons to drag me to the triage center to be injected.My drug tolerance is very high so they would undoubtably miss and underdose me,it`s gonna be a mess.Some things like dying are best done privately and individually.I hope a 1000$ worth of good East Coast smack IV would do me in.

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