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- - Getting ready to launch in homesteading... (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=264854)

<SLV> | 05-13-2008 12:43 PM
Getting ready to launch in homesteading... 2 Attachment(s) Someone on GIM once said that all survivalists will ultimately end up homesteaders. I think it is because at some point you realize your inability to stockpile "enough", and instead start thinking about becoming a producer. We have decided that we will make the big move this fall. I am planning on renting a house from my in-laws for a year while I build our homestead house. We want our house to be completely disconnected from any pipes or wires to the outside world, and we've decided that we don't want it to run on any fuel that we can not FREELY harvest. We have decided on a combination of wood / solar. The design I've posted below is built around an old-fashioned wood cookstove (www.kitchenqueenstoves.com). It cooks the food, heats the water, and heats the house. This leaves us with the following electrical demands: 1. Refrigerator and freezer (one of each) 2. Deep well pump 3. Washing machine 4. Light bulbs (about 24 20w CFLs) 5. Miscelaneous items (sewing machines / 18v battery chargers) For a "back up" generator I want to build a Stirling Engine and incorporate it into the wood stove. This will prove to be a spectacular challenge, and I hope that some of you on GIM will be able to point me toward resources. I'd like to build this engine for $1,000 or less. My current design (below) is based upon a passive convection heating system. The second floor center rectangle is a passive air duct that will have 45 degree baffles directing the air flow into each of the two bedrooms at the ceiling level. This rectangle is spaced so as to fit between the floor joists. Also, there will be a duct which passes over the MBR doorway to take heat to the bathroom. There will be passive cold air returns around all exterior walls. The house is 1,100 square feet 1.5 story (4' outside walls on the second floor - left and right in the drawings). It is a 24' square. We feel that this will accomodate our current family of six. Because we have 4 girls (so far) they can share a room. If we happen to have boys (we'd like 6 kids total), then we will plan on adding a bedroom on the main floor off the back of the house. In order to build this house as cheaply as possible, the following are my hard and fast rules: 1. Must be 2x6 construction built on 24� centers (thicker insulation / less framing lumber / less solid non-insulated contact between interior and exterior) 2. Must use engineered floor joists capable of spanning entire floor (24� center / no steel support beams or interior load bearing walls) 3. Must have only 4 exterior 90 degree corners<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> 4. Must be a 1.5 story having a traditional dual plane roofline<o:p></o:p> 5. Must have 4� exterior walls upstairs on two sides (gabled on the other two)<o:p></o:p> 6. Must have a 3/4 or 12/12 roof pitch<o:p></o:p> 7. No doors in load-bearing exterior walls (eliminates headers) 8. Only 22�-wide windows positioned within framing (eliminates headers)<o:p></o:p> 9. Must be a 2-bedroom with a possible main-floor bedroom expansion Additionally I am going to attempt to use mostly salvaged materials to build this house. I am going to be approaching many flooring stores to see if they will give me left-over hardwood from partial boxes used on jobs. I will build a "patchwork" floor of mixed woods (as long as the thickness / cut is the same) and just stain it all dark. Likewise, we will do the same with remnant tiles for our bathroom floor / shower surround. Craigslist will be my primary shopping site. Anyway, please let me know if you have any suggestions. I've attached plans for both floors below. Thanks.

DogFarm | 05-13-2008 12:44 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... do you have plans for a geothermal pump?

<SLV> | 05-13-2008 12:48 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by DogFarm (Post 1101640) do you have plans for a geothermal pump?
No. Too much electrical demand + it needs an active ductwork system or water radiator system. I want the house to be heated through passive convection. No moving parts - no noises - no dust - just the design of the house.

Professur | 05-13-2008 12:49 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... What are your sewage plans?

<SLV> | 05-13-2008 12:50 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by Professur (Post 1101645) What are your sewage plans?
Haven't really made "plans", but it will be some sort of septic tank I'm assuming.

Professur | 05-13-2008 01:00 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... A septic system with a weeper field is a good choice, but the tanks do need to be pumped out on a regular basis, and you're going to have to ensure that the weeper field doesn't contaminate your water supply. IMHO, that's not really a smart do-it-yourself. Can I suggest that the wood stove not be your only option where heating water is concerned. Solar water heating isn't expensive, and can maintain a good mean temp that only needs supplemented by the wood stove. I've spent some time living in houses heated by a central coal (or coke) fireplace ... and it's not pleasant. Mornings waking up and washing in cold water, because Mum hasn't had the fire going long enough to warm the water in the tank above it enough to make it worth the effort (and she'd skin us alive for wasting the heat). The long cold tile bathroom floor was horrific enough for us boys, but the girls had to sit on the icy toilet as well. The better house we had had hot water radiators in the rooms, fed from the tank above the fire. Dad took all the knobs off the taps to keep us from turning them up more. One thing that was very common in our houses was interior walls and doors. Forget trying to heat an open plan house. Every room had it's door and they were kept closed all the time. Far better to have the living room comfortable and the bedrooms cold before bedtime than to have the entire place an even 60F. Edit: You can get a bit of an idea from this about how every room has a door to close it off from the rest.

<SLV> | 05-13-2008 01:04 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by Professur (Post 1101667) A septic system with a weeper field is a good choice, but the tanks do need to be pumped out on a regular basis, and you're going to have to ensure that the weeper field doesn't contaminate your water supply. IMHO, that's not really a smart do-it-yourself. Can I suggest that the wood stove not be your only option where heating water is concerned. Solar water heating isn't expensive, and can maintain a good mean temp that only needs supplemented by the wood stove. I've spent some time living in houses heated by a central coal (or coke) fireplace ... and it's not pleasant. Mornings waking up and washing in cold water, because Mum hasn't had the fire going long enough to warm the water in the tank above it enough to make it worth the effort (and she'd skin us alive for wasting the heat). The long cold tile bathroom floor was horrific enough for us boys, but the girls had to sit on the icy toilet as well.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I am planning on incorporating a solar water heat loop for summer water heating. I believe we will probably become accustomed to bathing in the evening rather than the morning. In the winter, the Kitchen Queen will be able to hold a good fire all night, so we should have hot, or warm, water in the morning. What do you recommend for sewage?

Professur | 05-13-2008 01:10 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... For sewage ... you're going to need to get a local expert involved. No two ways about it. First to keep you legal. No sense giving the city a reason to condemn the place before it's even built. Second, all the different systems have differing requirements, particularly soil. A soil heavy in clay would defeat a weeper system. I don't know if an open cesspit is legal in your area.

Tn...Andy | 05-13-2008 02:13 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... First off, I know nothing about your family or how you live now......but 4 girls in that one bedroom sure wouldn't work for me. There won't even be room for much in the way of a dresser even for clothes ( I do see the closet with the bypass doors ). Have no idea what age they are, either, but one bath and 4 girls + wife + you would be a stretch for me. I admire that we can all do with a lot less, and all, there is way too much rampant consumerism, but man, you've gone the other way I'm thinking. Yes....before anyone jumps in, I KNOW people in 3rd world countries live 6 people in one room...but that doesn't mean I'd put that as my personal goal.....nuff said....your house, your family.....not meaning to harp, but you asked.... :D Looks like a dandy wood cook stove. You might also want to consider a small propane cook top unit in the counter area.....sink it down so you could slide a piece of butcher block top over it when not in use......wood stoves are great in the winter......summer cooking on them is NOT so great.....that's WHY old southern houses had separate kitchens built off of the main house in a separate building......air is hot enough without adding stove heat. To some of the architectural aspects: Your list of hard and fast: 1. Must be 2x6 construction built on 24” centers (thicker insulation / less framing lumber / less solid non-insulated contact between interior and exterior) Agree with 2x6....depending on the area, I'd go 2 2x4 exterior walls with offsetting studs.....interior on 16, exterior on 24. This is how I built my own house....only a 3/4" plywood plate at the top connects the two walls together. But if you go 2x6, go 16" centers.....interior wall finishes like drywall do much better without 24" span. I've built both ways, and I stick with 16"oc now. Use a layer of 3/4" or 1" foam over the exterior sheathing before you side....that tightens a wall up insulation wise more than anything you can do in the way of reducing studs. 2. Must use engineered floor joists capable of spanning entire floor (24” center / no steel support beams or interior load bearing walls) If you want to go with used materials, floor joist size materials are much easier to find......I would consider a conventional joist system for the first floor, trusses being rather expensive....save that for the second floor. They ARE nice in that you can easily hide wiring/plumbing/HVAC 3. Must have only 4 exterior 90 degree corners 4. Must be a 1.5 story having a traditional dual plane roofline 5. Must have 4’ exterior walls upstairs on two sides (gabled on the other two) I'd consider upping that to 5 or 5 1/2'......4' even with a 12/12 pitch means the average adult can't walk up closer than about 16" from that wall.... The 4' walls on the second floor: I assume you mean with a fairly steep pitched roof and 4' knee walls....windows on those two walls impractical. The toilet and sink in the upper bath need to move, or they will be hard to use.....I'd move the WH to the basement, and put the sink across that end wall of the bath, then move the toilet to the wall of the hallway/bath. 6. Must have a 3/4 or 12/12 roof pitch 7. No doors in load-bearing exterior walls (eliminates headers) 8. Only 22”-wide windows positioned within framing (eliminates headers) Make sure the windows in the gable end wall of the bedroom are PLENTY large enough to use as an emergency exit..a fire in the kitchen and up the stairwell could prevent using that as an exit. 22" rough opening is NOT gonna cut it.....the actual opening space will be down in the 14-16" range, if that. Headers just flat aren't that expensive......don't build a fire trap. 9. Must be a 2-bedroom with a possible main-floor bedroom expansion I think I'd have that expansion in mind pretty quick :D Septic systems are pretty much going to be dictated by local conditions and regulations. IF you have a city/county building inspector, start there. If not ( we do not ), check with the county health dept......that is who does our septic inspections and requirements. And good luck.....you're off on a grand adventure that everybody ought to do. We've owned two houses in our lives, and built both ourselves.......and I've built dozens and dozens for other people.

MrFreeze | 05-13-2008 02:21 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 1101654) Haven't really made "plans", but it will be some sort of septic tank I'm assuming.
If your family is up for the task I'd recommend composting toilets. This is a subject for another thread but research Humanure and you will start to see the opportunities for not only dealing with the waste but also creating some phenomenal compost. Why not build a cheap composting toilet now for under $50 with a standard toilet seat and a simple surround for a 5 gallon plastic bucket to try it out. It is much studier than a manufactured unit like the Luggable Loo and much cheaper than a commercial composting toilet. At the office right now or I'd send you a picture of my quick and simple one built in about 10 minutes with hand tools. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composting_toilet http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/hacienda.html Best wishes and it appears you are off to a great start.

Rebel Yarr | 05-13-2008 02:35 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... I think it is a great idea. Grats. I can't wait to do it myself! However, I do think you are nuts wanting to like in an 1100 sq ft house with 5women.

<SLV> | 05-13-2008 02:36 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Thanks for the tips. Andy, I'm going to have to chew on everything you said. The idea with 4' walls (actually 4' 7") is that I could just cut 8' 2x6s in half - trying to cut down on waste and buy the cheapest lumber possible. I also like the idea of standard joists on the main floor. I had decided on engineered joists to permit full spanning of the 24'. I wanted a main floor free of interior walls so that the stove could achieve maximum radiation. I'm not too worried about the size. We already live "very lightly", and my wife grew up with 3 sisters in a room smaller than that. Our children are being raise with those values. I appreciate the comment on the fire escapes. There will actually be an 8' deep porch roof on the front side, so it will make and ideal place to climb out. I've just been trying to be as absolutely cheap as possible. We've got 54" walls upstairs in our house with a 3/4 pitch. I think I could stand at a wall sink by that wall... but it eliminates a mirror. A toilet is definately doable there, and I was planning on doing a tub w/tile surround with the shower coming directly out of the ceiling (the kind with a pull handle :). I am planning on building a brick cooking facility on the back patio for summer cooking. We are also planning on eating mostly raw foods in the summer (when produce is readily available) - this fits with our nutritional values well. But I LOVE the idea of a sunken propane cook surface -- that is a GREAT tip! PS - The "water heater" in the bathroom is actually just a reservoir for the water heated by the cookstove. This is why it is located upstairs.

<SLV> | 05-13-2008 02:37 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel Yarr (Post 1101792) I think it is a great idea. Grats. I can't wait to do it myself! However, I do think you are nuts wanting to like in an 1100 sq ft house with 5women.
Our goal is as small as possible. We don't plan on LIVING in the house - just eating and sleeping there. Winters might be a challenge, but we will be outside with the livestock most of the summer.

Victor | 05-13-2008 03:23 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... You are going to need a land track to support the amount of wood you are going to need to cut to sustain heating and cooking. Depending on the climate, the number one job you do might be cutting, splitting, and stacking. Plus wood is never free totally. Chainsaws, log splitters, gas, oil, etc will still connect you to the grid. Crosscuting and mauling that much wood for years on end will break you physically and mentally eventually unless you have a decent crew for help. Going 100% off grid is a task most people can not wrap their mind around. It will take a huge effort on your and your families part and might be best to be done in stages over a few years. All at once off the land living so to speak might be an eye opener to say the least. Do as much research on people that have been there and done that as you can. It will give you some insight to pitfalls and challenges

thrifty_bob | 05-13-2008 03:34 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Why not look into earth bermed passive solar to eliminate most of the heating requirements? The less wood required to heat, the less of a burden it will be to cut/store, etc

<SLV> | 05-13-2008 04:40 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor (Post 1101866) You are going to need a land track to support the amount of wood you are going to need to cut to sustain heating and cooking. Depending on the climate, the number one job you do might be cutting, splitting, and stacking. Plus wood is never free totally. Chainsaws, log splitters, gas, oil, etc will still connect you to the grid. Crosscuting and mauling that much wood for years on end will break you physically and mentally eventually unless you have a decent crew for help. Going 100% off grid is a task most people can not wrap their mind around. It will take a huge effort on your and your families part and might be best to be done in stages over a few years. All at once off the land living so to speak might be an eye opener to say the least. Do as much research on people that have been there and done that as you can. It will give you some insight to pitfalls and challenges
The good news is that we will be buying a piece of a 500 acre farm that has been in my wife's family for 4 generations. We will be surrounded by a network of support. All of her family heats with central wood stoves, so cutting wood is always a social event. Yes, we will still need gasoline and diesel for vehicles and implements. I don't consider this the "grid". I just don't want anyone's pipes or wires stuck into my house. I don't want anyone to have the legal right to send me a monthly "bill". We will still need to use some fossil fuels, but the house won't need them.

<SLV> | 05-13-2008 04:42 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by thrifty_bob (Post 1101880) Why not look into earth bermed passive solar to eliminate most of the heating requirements? The less wood required to heat, the less of a burden it will be to cut/store, etc
I haven't considered it seriously, but I would assume you would have water issues as well as a higher cost of construction. Coming by wood won't be a problem for us, and I'm not opposed to cutting firewood. If we build a well-insulated house then we will probably only need a few cord of wood per winter - something that can be done up in a day with a small crew.

<SLV> | 05-13-2008 04:50 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFreeze (Post 1101772) If your family is up for the task I'd recommend composting toilets. This is a subject for another thread but research Humanure and you will start to see the opportunities for not only dealing with the waste but also creating some phenomenal compost. Why not build a cheap composting toilet now for under $50 with a standard toilet seat and a simple surround for a 5 gallon plastic bucket to try it out. It is much studier than a manufactured unit like the Luggable Loo and much cheaper than a commercial composting toilet. At the office right now or I'd send you a picture of my quick and simple one built in about 10 minutes with hand tools. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composting_toilet http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/hacienda.html Best wishes and it appears you are off to a great start.
Thanks for this info... I wish the systems were available more commercially. It looks like it would take a lot of planning and maintenance. I'll have to give it some thought. PS - Would you use a gray water system for the sinks and tubs?

MrFreeze | 05-13-2008 05:10 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Since I'm not sure what you mean by planning and maintenance but I don't think it is that difficult or maybe I've read so much before getting started it seems like it isn't a problem. There is a group of composting bins which can be built with something as simple as pallets nailed together. Just make sure to dump your stuff in the core of the pile and use something like leaves, grass, etc. in the edges to prevent odor issues. The good news is after sufficient time the product can be used as compost, unfortunately I'm in my first year of doing it p/t so I can't tell you from personal experience how to do rotation however there are plenty books and information on the web. On the gray water issue it is important you know the laws in your state, being a GIM member I'm sure you're well aware of the fact you need to know the law since the people that will tell you the law, like people with the health dept., are oftentimes uninformed and will try to tell you that is not the case. In the case of my state the law current states that if it doesn't contain human waste it is gray water however I had both a septic person, septic system designer and a person with the health department give me different answers and none of them matched the law. Thanks for some of the information you put out there about what you're doing, it is giving me some new ideas. They are sending chills down my spine and that is tough when you are Mr. Freeze.

TechGuy | 05-13-2008 05:14 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... If you are trying to save money on lumber, consider used. We built our first house (now a rental for my parents) almost entirely out of used lumber. We had to tear down the building, but we got lots of perfect plywood 2x4's, 2x6's and 2x12's. The original house was all used lumber except for the rafters, and was 1200 sq ft. Heck, the roof decking is 5/8 plywood, not that 16/32 wafer crap. We also reused the clean insulation (fiberglass and rockwool only) and all the 12 gugage wiring that was still in good condition. We even were able to resuse the a/c and heating units and windows. Total cost for the house was under 4k. Some stuff just had to be new, like water heaters, duct work, stuff like that. Something to consider.

<SLV> | 05-13-2008 05:21 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by TechGuy (Post 1102058) If you are trying to save money on lumber, consider used. We built our first house (now a rental for my parents) almost entirely out of used lumber. We had to tear down the building, but we got lots of perfect plywood 2x4's, 2x6's and 2x12's. The original house was all used lumber except for the rafters, and was 1200 sq ft. Heck, the roof decking is 5/8 plywood, not that 16/32 wafer crap. We also reused the clean insulation (fiberglass and rockwool only) and all the 12 gugage wiring that was still in good condition. We even were able to resuse the a/c and heating units and windows. Total cost for the house was under 4k. Some stuff just had to be new, like water heaters, duct work, stuff like that. Something to consider.
Thanks for that report. I've actually thought the same thing. Part of my wife's family is in the house-moving business, and sometimes they get "free houses/garages" that just need to be moved. I've thought about disassembling them and reusing the lumber. When I checked into doing this in my county here in Colorado, however, I learned that the framing inspector had to verify the date stamp on the lumber to make sure it was all new (I wonder who lobbied for that). Anyway, it might be more possible in Wisconsin.

Zilver | 05-13-2008 05:25 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... For your hot water I recommend using a "super Store type (indirect storage tank)" We heat our home with a small wood fired boiler that is in the basement. It is connected to a central loop that is fed by either the wood boiler or the oil boiler depending on which is producing heat, if the wood fire goes out, the oil takes over. This branches to 5 zones, the oil furnace is now used just for backup and heats our 2500 square foot Colonial in upstate NY. I went through 25 gal. of oil and 5 cords of wood last winter and keep the temp set at 65 to 70. Even now with warmer weather I can satisfy our hot water needs by burning one arm load of wood each night, the indirect storage tank will keep the water sufficiently hot enough for our showers and other hot water needs for 24 hours. The super store tank can also be connected to solar collectors, something I plan to add to the system asap.

<SLV> | 05-14-2008 01:14 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... I have incorporated some of the suggestions made and replaced the images in the opening post to reflect the changes. Now, I know this is going to make Andy's head explode, but I narrowed the stairway to 38" (from 48") in order to make room for a third bunk bed in the girls' room. I then made the closet a walk-in closet which will have a window seat over the stairway. This had the unintended benefit of widening the kitchen walkway from 3' to 4' - a great improvement. I originally had 4' stairway to capitalize on the joist spacing, but it is worth the extra lumber to pack 2 more kids in that room. :D Additional changes include 2x4 construction with 16" OC and 1" foam sheet, 5' 3" upstairs walls, and 30" windows upstairs and down. I think the 2x4 + foam will give me sufficient insulation. I'm still not happy with the bathroom layout -- I'm going to play with it to see if I can get the plumbing more tidy.

Krugerrand | 05-14-2008 02:16 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... It's exciting for me to watch your journey, SLV. Sort of starting with a new beginning, in a new home you'll build yourself, and without anyone's chains reaching inside. Very inspiring. I think Thoreau would be proud. :smile:

<SLV> | 05-14-2008 05:22 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by Krugerrand (Post 1103237) It's exciting for me to watch your journey, SLV. Sort of starting with a new beginning, in a new home you'll build yourself, and without anyone's chains reaching inside. Very inspiring. I think Thoreau would be proud. :smile:
Thanks, K. We decided that going completely "Thoreau" misses the point. Instead we are taking his principles and applying them in harmony with technology available today. When we get done there will be a sign by our driveway which says, "Walden Manor".

AMforPM | 05-14-2008 06:11 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... My first thoughts were summer kitchen (covered), solar hot water (covered), and whole house attic fan for cool summer sleeping with little power needed. A friend of ours gets almost all his building materials tearing down old buildings. The wood is rock hard and has to be drilled, there is no nailing it, but very strong. He is taking down an old warehouse now. Old barns have some amazing beams. Old houses all kinds of great stuff. It is a lot of sweat equity because you have to leave a clean site, but some of the materials are better than anything you could buy new. The wood often came from old growth forests. Even hinges and doorknob mechanisms just are not made like they were 80+ years ago. Really sturdy brass stuff. And floors! Of course it depends on your area what is available for removal. You have to be really careful taking down roof beams, of course. He says that is the riskiest time and you need a couple of helpers who are willing to take it slow and careful for that part. He stopped work a couple of months ago because a guy who could not be politely refused his offer of help was taking too many chances in that part. Then resumed when that friend was otherwise occupied. Sounds like a great adventure. And a good plan. I would expect to add on bedrooms later if I had 4 girls. But they might get used to bunking together.

Tn...Andy | 05-14-2008 06:16 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Nah, I don't have a problem with cutting the stairwell down to 38"......wider is nicer, but since it's a straight up run ( no turn in the stairs ), you can get by with a narrower set. I'd still stay with the 2x6 + 1" foam on the outside, if this is in Wisconsin. ( think you said that's where you were building ). Also, I'd consider adding a closed in back porch area ( and the same for the front ) as an airlock/weather break so your exterior doors don't open directly to the outside. Like the closet you got in the girls room......taking advantage of that space over the stairwell is smart.....you might even get a bit more when you actually frame it up and get a built in set of drawers starting about waist high and a couple shelves over that, depending on how you work out the head clearance in the stairwell. Efficient use of space is critical in small house. I'd probably cut out the window in there, and consider a Velux roof window if you want natural light...... Whole house fans are great.....just make sure you get a BIG one, (36" min ) and it's belt driven, with 2 speed motor, not direct drive. The belt driven ones are WAY quieter, the direct drives sound like a 727 taking off. I'd mount it in the rear gable end with a louvered shutter that closes when no air is moving ( and screen for insects/birds ), then put an opening in the hallway ceiling with a screened opening and removable panel for summer. Edit: If you're going solar, you can use a DC motor on the fan, and a rheostat that will allow infinite motor speed......you can crank it down to where it's pulling air, but you won't even hear it run.

jingles | 05-14-2008 07:08 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Sound good SLV, You've put a lot of thought into it I can see. Once you pass your septic test, you can make your own dry well for laundry and showers, the soap is what clogs up the septic systems. I'm too old now, but if I could do it again, it would be on a south sloping site. Third floor about 3' above grade. Second floor would be a walk in basement on the south side with lots of glass. First floor would be a full basement that almost no one knew about.

Krugerrand | 05-14-2008 09:05 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV (Post 1103488) Thanks, K. We decided that going completely "Thoreau" misses the point. Instead we are taking his principles and applying them in harmony with technology available today.
That sounds very reasonable. I think moderation is probably a good thing to strive for, generally. Your setup sounds like it will be modest and humble, and hopefully comfortable as well. :smile: Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV When we get done there will be a sign by our driveway which says, "Walden Manor".
I like that. :D

<SLV> | 05-14-2008 09:40 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by Tn...Andy (Post 1103561) Nah, I don't have a problem with cutting the stairwell down to 38"......
It was the third bunkbed in the same room I thought would make you flip. :bear_w00t: I was planning a simple gable attic vent fan on the s/w side of the house just to drop the attic temperature. I know motors are killer on solar batteries, so I'm not sure I want to do the whole house fan. I think I'd rather incorporate elements of good design to permit adequate ventilation. Yes, this is in Wisconsin, and I know the winters can be wretched (summers are pretty nasty, too, but there is that one week in spring... :D). How much more does a 2x6 cost over a 2x4? 50%? I like the idea of an airlock. We could make the front porch capable of being closed in with storm windows pretty easily. Zilver, do you recommend any specific brand of product for our hot water storage?

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budfox | 05-14-2008 09:50 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... What program did you use to draft it?

Zilver | 05-14-2008 11:39 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... do you recommend any specific brand of product for our hot water storage? Not really because I installed my system 6 or 7 years ago and technology changes fast, but I think you would be safe to get one that is made by any of the major boiler companies like Weil McClain: http://www.radiantheatproducts.com/store.asp?pid=17717 Utica Boiler : http://www.uticaboilers.com/products...ct_hotline.asp slant Fin: http://www.radiantheat.net/equipment_stainless_steel/ etc. I probably have a bunch of hydronics websites saved in my computer that can help you design a system properly, email me if you want me to dig out the links.

Farmgal | 05-14-2008 11:51 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... What about a pantry, or will you have a fruit cellar in the basement? If you are homesteading, your kitchen and pantry cannot be too big, I can assure you of that. Everytime I take up a new project, the pantry is too small again. We started with canning. Added winemaking. Then herbs. Now soapmaking. All require more room! So don't forget to take those kinds of interests into consideration. If you are going to homeschool, or if you have a big homesteading library, don't forget some good bookcases. What about a laundry area? I forget if you had that in there. A working homestead requires plenty of space to work in the home. In Wisconsin you will spend a lot of time in the house! You also need a good spot to store all those chores coats and mud boots and work gloves. Do you have a plan for firewood storage near the house? You don't want to have to run outside all the time for firewood. My daughters and I are just starting with some treadle sewing machines. If your wife sews, she might be interested in that, and you would need a place for the sewing machine cabinet, but they do double as a nice table. Survivalblog had a great article about treadle machines awhile back, and that is what got us started. When we moved from Wisconsin to Missouri ten years ago, we had 4 young children. Their one request for the house was, "Can we please build a house with 2 bathrooms, or at least a bathroom with 2 toilets?!" Have fun with your plans!

electric-amish | 05-15-2008 12:07 AM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... For windows I recommend Casements. They open up 100% for ventilation and close up the tightest for conserving heat. Also can be totally unobstructed if desired for maximum View. They can be gotten in Vinyl for budget constraints or wood for a more traditional look. Make sure your roofer puts on a good roof the first time the pitch on your roof precludes most owners getting on it and doing repairs. I would like to see you post pics as your building. Electric-Amish

TTAZZMAN | 05-15-2008 12:49 AM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... all your thoughts are commendable...BUT... by far your largest technical and financial hurdle will be power production. you will need to consider space requirements for your power production/storage i think you need to plan space for the solar array/electrical equipment and storage batterys Etc. (it will take a lot of storage amps to start the deep water pump) and as far as a stirling engine..wonderful in concept very impractical to build effeciently on a short budget. if you can build one at best it will be very low wattage so you will need large amp storage capacity to start the deep pump you might consider wind power or if you have running water you could produce backup power from a small stream or lake generator (if you have some form of "live" water you could put in water filtration and eliminate the deep pump from your electrical demand and use a on demand 12v RV type water pressureization system) for cheap reliable backup power you might consider something like a "lister" diesel engine for power generation especially for the high demands of the deep water pump. or you could actually build a wood powered steam engine type generator. I am just starting a similar project (similar in concept) for myself my first try will be a shop building with living quarters all OFF GRID...i am using wood for backup heat...spring water for water (filtered), using a RV 12v water presurization system...also using the spring water for primary heating and cooling-pumping it thru a heat exhanger ..cool in the summer...warm in the winter...60Deg year round...i am using a solar shingles on the roof for power generation...i think i will back it up with a "lister" diesel engine that i can run on Bean oil i grow and produce..... Just some general thoughts..be sure and keep us posted..inquireing minds are watching :) If you figure out a way around the power issue or a practical way to get a stirling engine to work i want to know because i am scratching my head on that one for myself also

Tn...Andy | 05-15-2008 07:22 AM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 1103801) I was planning a simple gable attic vent fan on the s/w side of the house just to drop the attic temperature. I know motors are killer on solar batteries, so I'm not sure I want to do the whole house fan. I think I'd rather incorporate elements of good design to permit adequate ventilation. Yes, this is in Wisconsin, and I know the winters can be wretched (summers are pretty nasty, too, but there is that one week in spring... :D). How much more does a 2x6 cost over a 2x4? 50%? I like the idea of an airlock. We could make the front porch capable of being closed in with storm windows pretty easily.
You can use non-motorized vents or turbines that spin with the heat rising out of them, but the problem is during the day, you really don't want those things drawing in warmer outside air.....a motor fan you control you only turn on at night when the outside air temps fall, and you bring in cool air to aid in sleeping. As to cost of 2x6s over 2x4s, I have no idea anymore, since I saw my own. I will say you're probably only looking at a few hundred FRNs difference, so why worry about it.....it's really a case of "pay me now or pay me later" in the energy game....not to mention comfort level of the house over time. My own house I built most of the first floor on an insulated concrete slab with 9" exterior walls ( 2-2x4 with 1" space separating the walls ), airlocked all exterior doors, 50sqft of north and west facing glass versus about 200 of south and east, and a huge mass of masonary chimney in the house center. As a result, the house heats quite easily, and in the summer, stays 10-20 degrees cooler than outside temps until the real "dog" days of August. Farmgal points out some very valid concerns.....a working kitchen needs room. 4 kids go thru a LOT of laundry......putting laundry facilities in the basement means 3 stories of climbing for every load up and down. I know you are trying to go minimal here, and all, but unless this is a first stage and you plan to add on before long, I REALLY think you are going to be very cramped in the size house you're looking at here. I'm curious the ages of your children, and the amount of space you now have ? A buddy of mine just finished his house last year......he worked on it for about 6-7 years, doing it as he had time and money. They lived in a mobile home that was falling apart ( literally ) by the time they moved in, and was located about 10' off the front porch of the house ( used the same septic system for both ). He has 15ac of property, and had some decent white pine on part of it, so I took my Woodmizer sawmill up there, showed him how to run it, and left it for a few months while he logged out and sawed up the framing for the house.....then he, and I and several other construction buddies held "framing" parties couple weekends and got the shell of the house up ( it's a 1 1/2 story with a big shed dormer off the back roof ). I helped him build the chimney core ( fireplace in the LR, wood cook stove in the kitchen ) and later helped him with electrical wiring, and hanging the sheetrock, building the kitchen cabinets ( at my shop ).....he did all the plumbing, tile, hardwood floors, painting, trim work, exterior siding, etc.....other than digging out for the foundation and the ditch for the electrical service wire, I don't think he had any hired labor.....and the house has turned out beautiful.....and he has no mortgage. The house is about 3000 sqft ( including a large play room over the garage ) with attached 2 car garage. They have 3 children.

<SLV> | 05-15-2008 11:08 AM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by budfox (Post 1103808) What program did you use to draft it?
Only the best: http://www.chiefarchitect.com/. I got a $100 copy directly from ART for our church building committee (non-profit discount). I think the retail is about $1,200.

<SLV> | 05-15-2008 11:20 AM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmgal (Post 1103903) What about a pantry, or will you have a fruit cellar in the basement? If you are homesteading, your kitchen and pantry cannot be too big, I can assure you of that. Everytime I take up a new project, the pantry is too small again. We started with canning. Added winemaking. Then herbs. Now soapmaking. All require more room! So don't forget to take those kinds of interests into consideration. If you are going to homeschool, or if you have a big homesteading library, don't forget some good bookcases. What about a laundry area? I forget if you had that in there. A working homestead requires plenty of space to work in the home. In Wisconsin you will spend a lot of time in the house! You also need a good spot to store all those chores coats and mud boots and work gloves. Do you have a plan for firewood storage near the house? You don't want to have to run outside all the time for firewood. My daughters and I are just starting with some treadle sewing machines. If your wife sews, she might be interested in that, and you would need a place for the sewing machine cabinet, but they do double as a nice table. Survivalblog had a great article about treadle machines awhile back, and that is what got us started. When we moved from Wisconsin to Missouri ten years ago, we had 4 young children. Their one request for the house was, "Can we please build a house with 2 bathrooms, or at least a bathroom with 2 toilets?!" Have fun with your plans!
My thought was a washing machine in the basement. I'm planning a wall-mounted coat rack (row) by the back door / stair well. My wife says that her grandmother's treadle machine is being used for decoration at the old farmhouse, so we might try to pick that up. I really think she would miss her serger! Originally I was planning a Jack/Jill bathroom on the main floor with 2 tubs / toilets and sinks / washing machine in the common area. This was when my design was a 3-bedroom 1,700 sq. ft. rectangle (24' x 36'). I think this is out of our price range. My total budget for the project is going to be @ $25k - solar included. All the firewood will be stored in the basement and fed into the house through a chute on the side (this is the arrangement my inlaws have and it works fine for them - although their furnace is in the basement). Also, the pantry and canning storage will be in the basement. We are somewhat concerned about freezing in the winter. I've thought about running some sort of water radiator off the wood stove just to keep it above freezing. But even then, we might be out of town for a week or so over Christmas. We are serious about being minimalist. A house is what it is - a place of shelter from the weather, protection from the enemy; a place to eat, sleep and groom one's self. Like I said earlier, we are not planning on "living" in the house. Additionally, my second project will be a large barn with 1/2 animal and hay storage and the other 1/2 car garage / workshop.

<SLV> | 05-15-2008 11:24 AM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by electric-amish (Post 1103915) For windows I recommend Casements. They open up 100% for ventilation and close up the tightest for conserving heat. Also can be totally unobstructed if desired for maximum View. They can be gotten in Vinyl for budget constraints or wood for a more traditional look. Make sure your roofer puts on a good roof the first time the pitch on your roof precludes most owners getting on it and doing repairs. I would like to see you post pics as your building. Electric-Amish
Thanks for those tips! I'm planning a teflon/steel roof, so it should have good longevity. You are right that I DON'T want to spend a lot of time on the roof. My current house has a 3/4 pitch, and I think that is all the steeper I'm willing to go. I will definitely post pictures as the project continues. It will be at least September before I can even get a snap-shot of the lot - this is assuming that we have struck a deal as soon as I get to Wisconsin. Part of me is saying I should wait until gold hits $2,000 next year (per Peter Schiff). All of our house savings are in gold.

<SLV> | 05-15-2008 11:30 AM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by TTAZZMAN (Post 1103948) all your thoughts are commendable...BUT... by far your largest technical and financial hurdle will be power production. you will need to consider space requirements for your power production/storage i think you need to plan space for the solar array/electrical equipment and storage batterys Etc. (it will take a lot of storage amps to start the deep water pump) and as far as a stirling engine..wonderful in concept very impractical to build effeciently on a short budget. if you can build one at best it will be very low wattage so you will need large amp storage capacity to start the deep pump you might consider wind power or if you have running water you could produce backup power from a small stream or lake generator (if you have some form of "live" water you could put in water filtration and eliminate the deep pump from your electrical demand and use a on demand 12v RV type water pressureization system) for cheap reliable backup power you might consider something like a "lister" diesel engine for power generation especially for the high demands of the deep water pump. or you could actually build a wood powered steam engine type generator. I am just starting a similar project (similar in concept) for myself my first try will be a shop building with living quarters all OFF GRID...i am using wood for backup heat...spring water for water (filtered), using a RV 12v water presurization system...also using the spring water for primary heating and cooling-pumping it thru a heat exhanger ..cool in the summer...warm in the winter...60Deg year round...i am using a solar shingles on the roof for power generation...i think i will back it up with a "lister" diesel engine that i can run on Bean oil i grow and produce..... Just some general thoughts..be sure and keep us posted..inquireing minds are watching :) If you figure out a way around the power issue or a practical way to get a stirling engine to work i want to know because i am scratching my head on that one for myself also
I'd LOVE to use a hydro-power set up. Unfortunately none of the farm has water that drops enough, and even if it did it is frozen solid most of the winter. I've thought about supplementing with wind. I will probably do a wind test at the site once it is selected. My thinking on the Stirling Engine is to design something that integrates into the firebox/water reservoir on the wood cookstove. I was thinking about a 3 cylinder engine whose crank is geared by a chain drive to the generator. I need to do more homework on the way to maximize a Stirling Engine to determine effective output. We are planning a cinderblock battery house a little ways away from the house. We will likely have a back up diesel generator in there -- if we can afford it, one that can be programmed into the system. BTW... I'm looking at getting my solar/wind equipment here: www.acsolar.com.

<SLV> | 05-15-2008 11:41 AM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by Tn...Andy (Post 1104125) You can use non-motorized vents or turbines that spin with the heat rising out of them, but the problem is during the day, you really don't want those things drawing in warmer outside air.....a motor fan you control you only turn on at night when the outside air temps fall, and you bring in cool air to aid in sleeping. As to cost of 2x6s over 2x4s, I have no idea anymore, since I saw my own. I will say you're probably only looking at a few hundred FRNs difference, so why worry about it.....it's really a case of "pay me now or pay me later" in the energy game....not to mention comfort level of the house over time. My own house I built most of the first floor on an insulated concrete slab with 9" exterior walls ( 2-2x4 with 1" space separating the walls ), airlocked all exterior doors, 50sqft of north and west facing glass versus about 200 of south and east, and a huge mass of masonary chimney in the house center. As a result, the house heats quite easily, and in the summer, stays 10-20 degrees cooler than outside temps until the real "dog" days of August. Farmgal points out some very valid concerns.....a working kitchen needs room. 4 kids go thru a LOT of laundry......putting laundry facilities in the basement means 3 stories of climbing for every load up and down. I know you are trying to go minimal here, and all, but unless this is a first stage and you plan to add on before long, I REALLY think you are going to be very cramped in the size house you're looking at here. I'm curious the ages of your children, and the amount of space you now have ? A buddy of mine just finished his house last year......he worked on it for about 6-7 years, doing it as he had time and money. They lived in a mobile home that was falling apart ( literally ) by the time they moved in, and was located about 10' off the front porch of the house ( used the same septic system for both ). He has 15ac of property, and had some decent white pine on part of it, so I took my Woodmizer sawmill up there, showed him how to run it, and left it for a few months while he logged out and sawed up the framing for the house.....then he, and I and several other construction buddies held "framing" parties couple weekends and got the shell of the house up ( it's a 1 1/2 story with a big shed dormer off the back roof ). I helped him build the chimney core ( fireplace in the LR, wood cook stove in the kitchen ) and later helped him with electrical wiring, and hanging the sheetrock, building the kitchen cabinets ( at my shop ).....he did all the plumbing, tile, hardwood floors, painting, trim work, exterior siding, etc.....other than digging out for the foundation and the ditch for the electrical service wire, I don't think he had any hired labor.....and the house has turned out beautiful.....and he has no mortgage. The house is about 3000 sqft ( including a large play room over the garage ) with attached 2 car garage. They have 3 children.
Your framing sounds like over-kill for Tennessee! Aren't you worried you might not hear Homeland Security show up? :tongue_ma: I get your point on the 2x6s. Sounds like a worthy investment. Our chimney will go up directly through the convection shaft in order to accelerate the convection process and use the heat from the chimney. It will be baffled at the attic level at a 45 degree angle to direct heat into each of the bedrooms. I have been avoiding a rectangular design because I didn't want to have a house with "extremeties" because of the nature/source of the heat. Also, spanning more than 24' can get pricey. BTW... my oldest daughter is 5 and my youngest is 4 weeks. My wife has said, "But what if we have a boy now?" Although this seems unlikely, this is where my planned expansion comes in. Right now we have a 1,700 sq. ft. 4-bedroom. One of the bedrooms is a dedicated guest room. Before this house we had a 1,400 sq. ft. 4-bedroom. We only used 2 rooms in that house, but we only had two kids then. Before we move (hopefully last week of August) we are planning on selling EVERYTHING with a few rare exceptions. We are only going to take what we can put in our Windstar and our 4x6 cargo trailer as well as my Jeep and a utility trailer. One thing I don't think I can/should part with is my 24" Ferrari rear-tine diesel tiller. Where would I find another one? We decided that between the money we get from the sale and the money we save from not renting a truck we can replace our stuff with quality used stuff from Craigslist. This also gives us a chance to really evaluate what we need to live (minimalist).

AMforPM | 05-15-2008 08:38 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... I don't know how hilly your land is but you might store excess solar power in an underground concrete cistern high enough to fill with excess daytime power and empty at night as hydropower. (Though considering the cost of the cistern and the micro hydropower generator, maybe not practical.) Or you could do materials gathering now, taking something (or several things) down, and hope solar comes down in price as it is used and developed more outside the US (the US seems dead set against it) vs your rising gold. The system of storage I like best was designed for electric cars being built in India by Tata Motors. It stores power as compressed air then reverses and uses compressed air to generate power. It has even been used in Europe to power buses. Another advantage is that its byproduct is cold air, providing some free air conditioning wherever that is directed when the stored power is in use, in your case, at night. Solar films are being developed that will produce a lot more power than current systems. Myself, I find battery storage way too expensive and unreliable long term, in a crisis, because of battery replacement costs, and the possibility of no replacements being available. The compressed air system uses fiberglass tanks that crack and leak on impact (for use in vehicles) and are non explosive. That is the solar system I want to put in as it becomes available. For now I have a minimalist solar backup. Old trailers are dirt cheap (1k to 2k) in many areas. That idea of living on site while building sounds great. Some old buildings have old 36 and 48 inch belt driven fans that will likely run 100 more years with a little care. Check used building supply shops too. I found one in Houston years ago. They cool the house wonderfully even when the day was Texas hot. It may not get that hot in Wisconsin, but here night cool is a big issue and power hog. The alternate option here is a screened summer sleep room, at least the top half of 3 walls screened so natural breeze cools it, but that gets dew in some nights. My great aunts slept summers on their screened back porch. My wife's Mississippi family used a whole house attic fan. I have used one and they are wonderful with those self opening and closing louvers.

<SLV> | 05-15-2008 09:39 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Thanks, AM4PM. Anyone have suggestions on how to get heat from a wood stove on the main floor into the basement without a blower?

<SLV> | 05-17-2008 06:12 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... 7 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 1105260) Thanks, AM4PM. Anyone have suggestions on how to get heat from a wood stove on the main floor into the basement without a blower?
Nevermind... I just learned that if the basement is well-insulated it should stay about 55 degrees year-round. BTW... here are some pictures generated by Chief Architect.

<SLV> | 07-26-2008 01:41 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... 1 Attachment(s) I think we've identified the piece of land that we'd like to build on. Across the road is my inlaws house (plus 2 rentals they own), and this parcel is on my wife's uncle's 500 acre farm. It is 5.5 acres with the cultivated portion (valley) being about 50% of the property with the other half wooded. There are existing barbed wire fences on the east and north sides of this parcel. My inlaws have water only 12' down, and they have never had any flooding/seeping problems. I'm thinking that our buildsite would be on the southern part of the property (small sheds in the picture aren't there anymore). I think our goats would love to graze through the wooded portion. They LOVE leaves and will strip them as high up the tree as they can. This will keep the woods clear of underbrush and make rabbit/squirrel/deer hunting easier. There should be enough wood there to sustain us (heating), but there is no reason we won't be able to glean off the 250 wooded acres my wife's uncle has. Right now it looks as though our start is going to be postponed until next year (:thumpdown), but that is what it is. We are planning a trip over Thanksgiving, and it is in the back of our mind that we might not come back. In fact, we even thought about moving our trip up to the time of the elections just to be at our bug out if martial law is instated following race riots. But I really want to be there for deer hunting season. Anyway, it's been a while, so I thought I'd give you an update. We haven't given up on our dream of Walden Manor. BTW... we have decided to go electricity-free. The only exception might be a 24v DC well pump run off a dedicated solar panel. Of course we will use a lot of rechargeable batteries for small electronics with small solar charger boxes. I will be able to keep my laptop charged from library use, and the phones can charge in the car.

Saul Mine | 07-26-2008 04:51 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... I just took a look at that walk-in closet. A walk-in is certainly luxurious, but the space is mostly wasted. If you were to move one bed into that space you would fee up a huge amount of floor space in the rest of the room. You could build closets in that space, but since you are pinching pennies I suggest you try free standing furniture instead. (clothes cupboards)

<SLV> | 07-26-2008 09:08 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by Saul Mine (Post 1210539) I just took a look at that walk-in closet. A walk-in is certainly luxurious, but the space is mostly wasted. If you were to move one bed into that space you would fee up a huge amount of floor space in the rest of the room. You could build closets in that space, but since you are pinching pennies I suggest you try free standing furniture instead. (clothes cupboards)
Thanks for the tip. Something you can't see in the drawing is that the stairway cuts up in front of that closet window. Also, those are three sets of bunkbeds in that room -- we are planning it for 6 girls to share. (Four girls so far, a boy at this point would change our plans some). My wife and I also thought about just using armoires and chests of drawers. That works for us, but I'm not sure what the county will say when we turn in our plans -- the government has to watch out for us by making sure we have enough closets. :sarc:

jamesfrancisco | 07-27-2008 09:40 AM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Grey water - don't use it for anything except to flush the toilet. I spent ages reseaerching this for a big project I was on - grey water is without exception very high in Coliform bacteria. flush the toilet, water the garden with it - but never, ever drink it. Even the best UV light steriliser won't kill them all.

Avalon | 07-27-2008 01:19 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... SLV.. I have to echo Andy's concern abut one bathroom. If you cant swing a second bathroom how about a small closet size bathroom with just a potty and small sink.. We lived with one potty when we were remodeling a bathroom and it was rough.

Rebel Yarr | 07-27-2008 02:41 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 1105260) Thanks, AM4PM. Anyone have suggestions on how to get heat from a wood stove on the main floor into the basement without a blower?
If you hadn't thought of it - a radiator.

Maddie | 07-27-2008 09:15 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by <slv> (Post 1104477) BTW... my oldest daughter is 5 and my youngest is 4 weeks. My wife has said, "But what if we have a boy now?" Although this seems unlikely, this is where my planned expansion comes in.
Or until your girls are teenagers. Seriously. You might think you're ready for Armaggedon... I shared a room with one of my sisters until well into my teenage years, and my husband shared a room with four of his brothers. It can be done, but it's rough. My sister and I got into fistfights all the time, and my husband and his brothers were even worse, given there were more of them. They got into out and out brawls. The sister I'm close to and have always been close to is the one I didn't have to share a room with. The other one and I still can't really stand each other. My husband and his brothers aren't close to each other, either. </slv>

AMforPM | 07-28-2008 12:40 AM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... If you are any good at masonry and find anything to demolish that has good brick, you might consider having that woodstove in the kitchen but a russian masonry fireplace to heat the house. They are 90% efficient. They put the outgoing hot gasses through a serpentine path through a huge masonry heat sink so almost no heat escapes out the chimney and a lot less wood creates a lot more warmth. The masonry holds the heat and produces that wonderful radiant heat. Most Russian fireplaces include an oven, and a bench for elderly, sensitive to cold, or someone who just came in from chores freezing to sit and bask in that radiant heat. My wife's dad and mom demolished a boat and several houses to get materials for the fine house they built. Mom would clean the brick as dad laid it. As you can see from where this design comes from... Russia, Finnland, Siberia, etc, they are designed to get maximal heat from each bit of wood. They do. And the heat is mostly very comfortable radiant heat. In less than Siberian blizzard conditions firing it morning and evening with very hot fires (how many refills depends on how cold it is) then just banking it and the heated masonry mass radiates. If we build in the country that is the kind of wood fire I am going to have. When I lived in a cabin in Kentucky with an ordinary woodstove I got really sick of how wasteful the stove was. I was cutting and splitting wood constantly, and only when I found a down hickory to use was it ever very warm. I replaced the cr@ppy woodstove that was in it with a 2 barrel stove I built, and that helped a lot because the top barrel at least let less heat go out the chimney, but I would have built one of these if I had stayed. russian fireplace articles http://www.grannysstore.com/Do-It-Yo...nry_stoves.htm http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclo...nry_stove.html Here is a mother earth news of 2 guys building along those lines out of cast clay. http://www.motherearthnews.com/Do-It...Fireplace.aspx another mother earth news version http://www.motherearthnews.com/Do-It...e-Heating.aspx

AMforPM | 07-28-2008 12:52 AM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Those are great drawings! Don't you want your basement cool for putting your canned goods and root cellar items?

nub | 07-28-2008 02:36 AM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... The Russian masonry stove Am for Pm speaks of was something I seriously considered when building my house but I didn't have the doe, I opted for a free standing cast iron unit. The Kachelofen is the same basic idea as the Russian stove and was what I wanted to build. I would strongly suggest you allow for a separate wood stove apart from your cook stove.....the cook stove you link to does look better than most for heating. I used a wood burning cook stove in my old house for heat and meals .....burn box just wasn't big enough to accept all nighter logs, after two years I put in a buck wood stove with a blower, what a difference that made....... it said in the literature you could put a block of ice in it to cool the house in summer but I never did it.

BigShiny | 07-28-2008 07:38 AM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Just curious, how much do you think this whole house is going to cost to build? And how much of the labor are you doing yourself? I don't have a lot of construction expertise, but I'm sure with a good friend to teach me I could figure it out. It sounds like you have family members who will help you out? I'm trying to get an idea of how much I would need to save to do what you are doing. So far I know my area I want to move to, and it is about $30,000 for 10 acres of wooded. Building a structure is the next biggest cost.

jamesfrancisco | 07-28-2008 08:36 AM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... My BO place had a similar affair to that, but most of it has now dropped down (the place is 100 years old). It used to work fantastically at heating the whole house. What i can tell you, is that a brick dropping 15ft into the lit fireplace makes a hell of a mess - particularly when the only fire extinguisher in the place reads "open can, and throw contents at base of fire". I have since invested in a few proper fire extinguishers.:D

<SLV> | 07-28-2008 05:33 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by nub (Post 1212097) The Russian masonry stove Am for Pm speaks of was something I seriously considered when building my house but I didn't have the doe, I opted for a free standing cast iron unit. The Kachelofen is the same basic idea as the Russian stove and was what I wanted to build. I would strongly suggest you allow for a separate wood stove apart from your cook stove.....the cook stove you link to does look better than most for heating. I used a wood burning cook stove in my old house for heat and meals .....burn box just wasn't big enough to accept all nighter logs, after two years I put in a buck wood stove with a blower, what a difference that made....... it said in the literature you could put a block of ice in it to cool the house in summer but I never did it.
I appreciate the info on the Russion Masonry, but I have to wonder if it would cause for a lot of build up of creosote. I have been told that you don't want the smoke to cool too much or it will leave a mess (that is the argument for shorter chimney pipes). The Kitchen Queen is supposed to heat 1,500-2,200 square feet and be able to burn 12-16 hours on a full firebox. My design is only 1,100 square feet, so I was thinking it might be overkill.

<SLV> | 07-28-2008 05:34 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalon (Post 1211371) SLV.. I have to echo Andy's concern abut one bathroom. If you cant swing a second bathroom how about a small closet size bathroom with just a potty and small sink.. We lived with one potty when we were remodeling a bathroom and it was rough.
I will have an outhouse in addition to the "modern plumbing" inside the house. Mostly just for daddy to use so I don't have to come in from the shop/field and dirty up the house. :bear_w00t:

<SLV> | 07-28-2008 05:49 PM
Re: Getting ready to launch in homesteading... Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShiny (Post 1212193) Just curious, how much do you think this whole house is going to cost to build? And how much of the labor are you doing yourself? I don't have a lot of construction expertise, but I'm sure with a good friend to teach me I could figure it out. It sounds like you have family members who will help you out? I'm trying to get an idea of how much I would need to save to do what you are doing. So far I know my area I want to move to, and it is about $30,000 for 10 acres of wooded. Building a structure is the next biggest cost.
The only labor I might pay for is: 1. Drilling the well 2. Pouring the foundation/basement I think I can handle the rest between me and my family (actually my wife's family). I'm not planning any wiring, and the plumbing should be simple enough. The only thing I'm not looking forward to is roofing a 12/12 pitch. Our goal with this house is to be as minimalist as possible. We want the smallest, simplest, most efficient house possible for our family. Some things we are doing to accomplish this are: 1. Building a square floorplan on a 4' grid to minimize waste (and reduce construction time) 2. Siding and roofing in corrugated steel (walls will have 1" foam over 2x6 on 16" centers) for low maintenance 3. Flooring will be 3/4 plywood sanded, stained dark and polyeurothaned. (With colorful rugs, of course) 4. I will build interior insulated shudders for winter use (that lift off their hinges for summer storage). 5. Basement WILL NOT be heated -- I was mainly concerned with the cellar freezing, but ground temperature will take care of that. I am thinking that I might also build a cellar under a concrete back patio (with another cover identical to the front porch). I am still mulling over the best way to ventilate it. We will use this cellar for refrigeration, and in the winter we will keep an "ice box" on the back patio for freezing. By the time I'm killing deer (Thanksgiving) it should be plenty cold enough to freeze the meat. Any meat left over come spring thaw will be cut up and canned. Cost? It all depends on how much I can scavange. I expect the land to cost me about $12k-$15k. I think I can build the house for about the same amount, so I'd be in about $25k-$30k. We are committed to doing this with cash. The Kitchen Queen will be a major purchase @ $3,000 after adding accessories and freight. BTW... my wife grew up in the same room with 3 sisters all the way through high school. Also, they shared just one bathroom. (It is the house just to the east of the lot I'm looking at buying.) They are still really close today, so I think every family has its own dynamic.

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