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drewfu | 10-08-2007 11:45 PM
Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need... Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need is already available at your local outfitter. The wife and I took a few weeks earlier this summer to hike part of the Appalachian trail. The outfitter had all the necessities and many non-necessaries for the trip. Food: freeze-dried Mountain House brand stuff Water: filtration systems like Katadyn Stove: many varieties Clothing: Strong, lightweight, quick-drying, and warm clothing, shoes and boots Shelter: tents and sleeping bags It's insane the amount of stuff that you can get there. I hiked with a 55 pound pack which could have been cut way down with the inclusion of more lightweight stuff. That included enough food for 2 for a month. She had a 25 pound one.

odinthedog | 10-08-2007 11:53 PM
Re: Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need... You forgot pants. You smooth legged southern hemisphere dweller. Oh, and BTW, Great POST!! I'm in Cal. What is an outfitter? A guide?/supplier?

drewfu | 10-08-2007 11:59 PM
Re: Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need... Quote:
Originally Posted by odinthedog (Post 769096) You forgot pants. You smooth legged southern hemisphere dweller. Oh, and BTW, Great POST!! I'm in Cal. What is an outfitter? A guide?/supplier?
Outfitter is the general term for a store that sells hiking/camping gear. You might have an REI out there -- that's a big chain of outfitters with great stuff.

Krugerrand | 10-09-2007 12:19 AM
Re: Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need... Quote:
Originally Posted by odinthedog (Post 769096) You forgot pants. You smooth legged southern hemisphere dweller. Oh, and BTW, Great POST!! I'm in Cal. What is an outfitter? A guide?/supplier?
Dom's Outdoor Outfitters in Livermore, on 1st Street. :applause_ http://domsoutdoor.com/Default.asp?bhcd2=1191903285 Dom's carries a small selection of firearms, buncha knives, all sorts of camping supplies, outdoor clothes, boots, etc. Some military surplus type stuff, too. Sunrise Mountain Sports on Railroad... they have a huge rock climbing wall inside, too. :D They have a bunch of backpacking and mountaineering stuff. And of course REI! http://www.rei.com/ One in Fremont about across the street from Fry's, and one in Concord. REI is mostly camping/backpacking/mountaineering, cycling, kayaking, etc. I bought a bunch of stuff from them back when I was going on those backpacking trips with friends from high school. Oh yeah, www.cabelas.com . I've bought from all four of those stores: jackets, belt, rain gear, knives, firearms stuffs, multi-day backpack, tent, sleeping bag, sleeping pad, multi-fuel backpacking stove, backpacking pot/pan set, etc. etc. Don't use much of the backpacking stuff anymore, but I hang on to it in case of future need. Still use the tent, sleeping bag, and pad regularly ... shall again at Apple Hill this weekend. :wink:

money matters | 10-09-2007 12:00 PM
Re: Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need... Sorry, you've got it ALL WRONG! A "survivalist" is not someone who consumes, rather he/she is someone whose aim is self-sufficiency; unless their goal is only temporary muddling through. The stuff you cite is for camping/backpacking. Freeze dried food is not food which will sustain your health. It will do on a temporary basis, but if you eat that crap daily you will compromise your immune system and soon find illness is your new friend. Kinda doubtful that those "leave nothing but footprints" kinda retailers sell the tools which will enable longterm survival. Lotta people talk about a 3 day pack. That's just temporary coping, isn't it. A "survivalist" is someone who buys articles/items/tools they know they will need to enable or improve their self-sufficiency efforts. Thinking you "need" something proves you don't have a clue about what you are about. Those who are adept at gathering (shopping) equipment, but don't know how to use it or adapt it, aren't likely to be longterm survivors; no matter what they think or envision. Rather doubtful that any backpack-mentality folks will survive, unless they have only a short walk to a fully provisioned and setup homestead. Think of your daily needs: stay warm & dry, hydrated, fed, safe. Mostly, this is what our homelife provides us. Yet, when the social fabric unwinds and the utilities go down, grocers & fuel depots close, and your money fails, can you provide for your needs? If so, you are likely a survivalist.

drewfu | 10-09-2007 12:09 PM
Re: Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need... Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 769688) Sorry, you've got it ALL WRONG! A "survivalist" is not someone who consumes, rather he/she is someone whose aim is self-sufficiency; unless their goal is only temporary muddling through. The stuff you cite is for camping/backpacking. Freeze dried food is not food which will sustain your health. It will do on a temporary basis, but if you eat that crap daily you will compromise your immune system and soon find illness is your new friend. Kinda doubtful that those "leave nothing but footprints" kinda retailers sell the tools which will enable longterm survival. Lotta people talk about a 3 day pack. That's just temporary coping, isn't it. A "survivalist" is someone who buys articles/items/tools they know they will need to enable or improve their self-sufficiency efforts. Thinking you "need" something proves you don't have a clue about what you are about. Those who are adept at gathering (shopping) equipment, but don't know how to use it or adapt it, aren't likely to be longterm survivors; no matter what they think or envision. Rather doubtful that any backpack-mentality folks will survive, unless they have only a short walk to a fully provisioned and setup homestead. Think of your daily needs: stay warm & dry, hydrated, fed, safe. Mostly, this is what our homelife provides us. Yet, when the social fabric unwinds and the utilities go down, grocers & fuel depots close, and your money fails, can you provide for your needs? If so, you are likely a survivalist.
Interesting reply... I only know what I know... let X=X... We survived near a month in all manner of weather with the gear from these places. That included the food. We didn't eat just Mountain House, also high caloric items like peanut butter and chocolate. We had dried fruits and nuts. We didn't have a "short walk" and the terrain wasn't easy. We didn't walk after 3 days to a "fully provisioned and setup homestead." We were outside for near a month living with what was in our packs alone. By the way, part of my 55 pounds included a Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. What's the longest you have gone living with just the contents of your backpack? I've done 3 1/2 weeks.

TheSimpleton | 10-09-2007 03:41 PM
Re: Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need... I'll let you boys work this one out, but you might be interested in what Pat Smith of Kifaru.net calls "rambling." That means parking your truck with your pack and walk out, with no return date whatsover. Since they are elk hunters, I suppose that means they wander back when they run out of bullets, but you get the idea. He uses a sil-ny tipi and SS folding stove. I think this is what MM is getting at. Chocolate? Peanut Butter? Are you collecting this alongside the trail? Yes, that can work a very long time. "Survivalists" here are generally known for basements full of dry goods to last years. However, it's still akin to a space mission: backpacking in general has the attitude that you are going into a hostile foriegn environment in which you need to bring with you all of civilization. Thus the bubble tents, fuel bottles, espresso makers and inflatible flamingos for when you arrive. (I really like those.) This is the norm, and whether it's at home stockpiling beans, or walking the AMT carrying your fully-contained modern world, you won't find much contrast to that approach. Let's look at another way: Tom Brown, of the Tom Brown's Field Guides, goes out his door with his clothes and a pocketknife. Why? Because the wilds are NOT hostile and alien, they already have everything you require for survival, including coffee and flamingos. You therefore MAKE everything you need, with no need to buy or to carry. How long can you camp out under such conditions? Well, natives in North America lived their WHOLE LIVES in those conditions. For 30,000 years. So did the ancestors in Europe. It's the modern life that's the bubble. I just say that to put the contrast on the very IDEA of backpacking, either of buying goods or of carrying them. The Rev is the home contrast to this: stockpile goods, sure! But what makes your Survival is the ability to be a PRODUCER, not a consumer. That's it. Backpacks, storing beans, that is all CONSUMING without producing--it's just buying the goods further ahead of time. Right-o, so you're not going to walk out the door with a pocketknife. Certes, they lived their whole lives that way, but it TAKES a whole life to learn how. So let's take another angle: if you were headed out on the Oregon Trail or sailing to Tasmania, what would you bring, for the trip or the arrival? Hey, you can fill the wagon with beans and saltback if you like, the old version of Mtn House, but what good will that do once you arrive? The goods run out. The supply lines fail and the money runs out. For that, you need a pony, a piglet. An apple, a grape. You need a barrel of seed barley, rye and buckwheat. Two chickens and an axe to make a corn crib. A froe to make a roof--you get the idea. Now you're being a PRODUCER again. What's the basic problem western economies today, why is the system collapsing? In a nutshell, too many consumers and not enough producers. So let's try to be part of the solution here, first with identifying the field correctly. The backpacking outfitters do not carry this generationally-lasting, productive goods at a productive cost. An axe, Leather chaps, or wool capotes. They would carry gore-tex pants, a pocket saw, and down jacket, which would have decades-shorter life, if they could survive even a month in woods conditions. If you like both, it appears Fur-trade reenactors are increasing quality and quantity. In NA, Google "Sutler" like fcsutler, mercurysutler, and so on, and you'll find the long-lasted goods they used to use. The best "Survival" is not purchasing anything at all. TS

Codger | 10-09-2007 04:26 PM
Re: Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need... Good stuff Simpleton. You sparked a lot of ideas in my head and left me with a re-evaluation of my priorities. While I am well on my way in any case, you brought up some good points regarding learning to be a producer. On the other hand, the skills of the backpacker are also important. Planning a trip on foot for a distance similar to the AMT is quite a challenge. Interestingly, it could be made easier by taking survivalist skills with you. Of course in the case of the modern day backpacker, harvesting a deer on the way is probably illegal. By the way, aren't guns "illegal" on the AMT too? At any rate, I am going to refocus on aquiring skills for the long haul.

Professur | 10-09-2007 04:34 PM
Re: Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need... Quote:
Originally Posted by drewfu (Post 769709) Interesting reply... I only know what I know... let X=X... We survived near a month in all manner of weather with the gear from these places. That included the food. We didn't eat just Mountain House, also high caloric items like peanut butter and chocolate. We had dried fruits and nuts. We didn't have a "short walk" and the terrain wasn't easy. We didn't walk after 3 days to a "fully provisioned and setup homestead." We were outside for near a month living with what was in our packs alone. By the way, part of my 55 pounds included a Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. What's the longest you have gone living with just the contents of your backpack? I've done 3 1/2 weeks.
I believe his point was to survive ... without the contents of the pack in the first place. I've done a week on nothing but what I could find in my yard or the local woods. Most people are shocked to find out just how edible most of the things they rip out of their gardens and discard turn out to be. I've personally laughed at a guy for uprooting and discarding dandelions from his lettuce plot. The dandelion leaves were more nutritious than the lettuce.

drewfu | 10-09-2007 04:36 PM
Re: Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need... Quote:
Originally Posted by Codger (Post 770184) Good stuff Simpleton. You sparked a lot of ideas in my head and left me with a re-evaluation of my priorities. While I am well on my way in any case, you brought up some good points regarding learning to be a producer. On the other hand, the skills of the backpacker are also important. Planning a trip on foot for a distance similar to the AMT is quite a challenge. Interestingly, it could be made easier by taking survivalist skills with you. Of course in the case of the modern day backpacker, harvesting a deer on the way is probably illegal. By the way, aren't guns "illegal" on the AMT too? At any rate, I am going to refocus on aquiring skills for the long haul.
I could give 2 sh!ts if a gun was legal or not... I wasn't going anywhere without a sidearm.

money matters | 10-09-2007 07:59 PM
Re: Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need... I would say you are more likely to find better gear at your local Ace Hardware store. They sell good axes, knives and saws, maybe a drawknife? Rope and cordage, hardware items, nails etc. How about canning jars and pressure canners? Cast iron cookware, pitcher pumps, maybe a sand point for driving a well? Files, chisels (metal & wood), diamond hones, chainsaws, hanger brackets. I can elucidate for hours on what a decent hardware store is likely to have. Even Walmart has tons of decent gear, especially Lodge cast iron cookers. Backpacks are a great idea in all varieties and styles. Pretty much always going to be gathering stuff or carrying it. REI is one source for the Katadyn Expedition water filter. $169, the best money you will ever spend. My first one cost $350, and we've been using it for 6 years only had to clean it once but it should last forever if the candles (filter elements) don't freeze. Holds 3 gals of filtered water in a spigotted reservoir and 3 gals above so you never run out if you remember to fill it. Superb tool for survival. Most of the gear at REI is very expensive and way overpriced. I got a flyer from them in todays mail, get another 5% "dividend" if I sign up for their credit card. Screw them! Been a member since 1990. Worthless BS, their co-op. You want rugged clothing? Look at Carrhart. The double faced trousers are super durable and outlast anything. The biggest concern I would have if starting afresh is durable footwear. I have always liked leather mountaineering boots for comfort and durability, though they are heavy. Vasque made by Redwing were excellent in the 70s, but today the cost is exorbitant. Paid $250 for some Raichles from REI mailorder in 1990. Not as good a fit as my old Vasques and heavier, but they still are about like new, even after being submerged (with me in them) for 5 hours once, in a frozen swamp. Most of the backpacking gear sold these days, no matter how expensive, isn't made to last. It sure won't last in the wilds. I have to say that most Americans feel like they are owed "something" based on how much money they pay for an item. Great Expectations which will be unmet when their is no more "return for full credit". This whole matter of survivalism is deadly serious. It is not a matter of buying stuff at the last minute before a deer hunt with your buddies. The most critical aspect I feel is durability and repair potential. Know how to sew? Got supplies, a repair kit? Can you do more than turn to the handyman's friend (duct tape)? Know why there are so many types of needles and scissors? Own a firearm, but no reloading gear or components? Know how to mount your own scopes? Got spare parts kits for your guns? Got several dozen knives, cooking and other specialty ones? If you have $5000 worth of gear, did you buy a $3k Kifaru rifle and a few other of their "necessities" or buy over a ton of gear and food with the money? The romance of "gear" is not in acquiring "the best", but in having the tools for the job. That we can trade fiat money for tools to handcraft goods and materiel is a potential that may not be with us much longer. Funny, the guys who can most afford to buy the best, can hardly budget the time to learn how to use their gear. Thanks to TS for his well-reasoned (as always) remarks.

Krugerrand | 10-09-2007 09:28 PM
Re: Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need... money matters, I don't want to be rude, but your posts would be more pleasureable to read if they didn't all come in such a high-horsed, condescending tone. :wink: You make several great points, but I disagree with a few. Not everyone who owns backpacking gear just "shopped" and bought it yesterday and stashed it away for future use. Some folks have used theirs dozens of times for several years. I can't say I agree with your comment on the quality of stuff nowadays... good quality gear is readily available and lasts a long time, and under the toughest conditions, because it has to. My North Face synthetic mummy bag (*15 F) that I bought about 7 years ago is in terrific shape, as is the North Face tent I bought before that, and the sleeping pad I bought at the same time. Bought all three of these on terrific sale, which was nice because they're normally a pretty expensive brand, and believe me, they've all seen a great deal of use. Carhartt does make tough and rugged ranch and work clothes, but doesn't do much good for backpacking or mountaineering. I have one of their jackets, but it won't fill the role that either of my Columbia rain/snow parkas will, nor my fleece jacket. Rather than belittle everything else though, and the people who buy them, I see that different things have their roles, and different folks may or may not have a need for them. (I've had the Carhartt for 4 years and the Columbia jackets for 8, all seem to be made to last in my experience.) Personally, I find a tent and sleeping bag to come in handy, not only on camping trips I still go on often for recreation, but for any future necessity, and I don't consider people who buy them to be "survival" posers or fools as your tone seems to imply. I've found mountaineering boots to be about as uncomfortable as boots can get unless you're actually using them for mountaineering. They're very stiff and rigid so that you can plant the tips of your toes on the smallest rock and ice ledges, and so that they can stand up to crampons (ice cleats) that are strapped to them at times, and their weight is cumbersome. Not the best choice for your one pair of all-around boots. They're great for mountaineering, though.

Krugerrand | 10-09-2007 10:28 PM
Re: Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need... Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 770647) Living out of your backpack = refugee status It sounds adventurous, romantic, and all, but it's very, very impractical and unrealistic.
Fun to do for a vacation, though, and good skills to have, but definitely not the ideal longterm situation. :bear_tongue:

AMforPM | 10-09-2007 10:33 PM
Re: Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need... I don't get the jumping all over drefu. Congratulations on your backpacking trip, Drefu. I bet it was beautiful. We intend to stay put and garden and keep hens if times get the kind of tough we think most likely. But being able to hike a long way with a serious load could be a life or death question as well.

____hoot____ | 10-09-2007 10:59 PM
Re: Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need... I keep both "sceeenareeooos" in mind. My first "hideout" is 32 miles from my homebase with two "stashes" buried in between. More are farther out with other "waystations". Of course I have done simular advanced planning and stageing for "offensive" operations. One must not only think of retreat.

Ghost Recon | 10-10-2007 05:58 AM
Re: Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need... Quote:
Originally Posted by drewfu (Post 769709) Interesting reply... I only know what I know... let X=X... We survived near a month in all manner of weather with the gear from these places. That included the food. We didn't eat just Mountain House, also high caloric items like peanut butter and chocolate. We had dried fruits and nuts. We didn't have a "short walk" and the terrain wasn't easy. We didn't walk after 3 days to a "fully provisioned and setup homestead." We were outside for near a month living with what was in our packs alone. By the way, part of my 55 pounds included a Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. What's the longest you have gone living with just the contents of your backpack? I've done 3 1/2 weeks.
3 1/2 weeks is impressive! Not many people could do that. The longest I was out with only Mountain House food and Lipton Ice Tea on my back was 2 weeks on the Muir Trail.

Ghost Recon | 10-10-2007 06:20 AM
Re: Most of the stuff you survivalists think you need... I just read the entire thread. Good post(s) by drewfu and some others. Having done a lot of backpacking, I can only laugh at some of the 'comments' on this thread...nuff said.

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