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cb&julie | 07-17-2006 04:12 PM
Let's discuss some scenarios I'd like to make reference to popular film to discuss some SHTF or as J likes to call it AWBL (All Heck Breaks Loose). Several come to mind: Road Warrior, Mad Max Waterworld The Postman There are others, and I'd appreciate reference to them as needed. Once AWBL, will society devolve along the line of Road Warrior, Mad Max, Waterworld, Postman, that is, small enclaves of "good" people will create walled towns with resources and energy generating mechanisms while "bad" people join roving gangs and attempt to take the resources by force?

drafter | 07-17-2006 04:27 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Well "The Postman" was filmed pretty much literally in my backyard so I like it the best of the ones mentioned. It's somewhat more plausible than Waterworld though not as fun as MAD MAX.

cb&julie | 07-17-2006 04:30 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by drafter (Post 302016) Well "The Postman" was filmed pretty much literally in my backyard so I like it the best of the ones mentioned. It's somewhat more plausible than Waterworld though not as fun as MAD MAX.
I agree on the above- The Postman in underrated. Still, the themes of TP are similar to Mad Max, et al. Is this where you see socirty after AHBL? I do, think back to your early modern and medieval history. Between towns there were major dangers. Commerce and travel took place but not without banditry and crime. Small towns were sometimes raided by armed bands of 'outsiders.' Place that type of life with post industrial technological leftover and you get the scenarios in these films.

Book | 07-17-2006 04:34 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by drafter (Post 302016) Well "The Postman" was filmed pretty much literally in my backyard so I like it the best of the ones mentioned. It's somewhat more plausible than Waterworld though not as fun as MAD MAX.
Agreed...but the book is much more informative then the movie. Worth the time to actually read the book even if you watched the movie. Attachment 16857 The classic end-of-the-world book Must Read!

cb&julie | 07-17-2006 04:37 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Is there a movie based on 'Lucifer?'

Veritas | 07-17-2006 04:48 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios The Postman is a GREAT movie...VERY underrated!! http://www.thepostman.com/img/open.jpg I reccommend this movie to anybody who hasn't seen it.

cb&julie | 07-17-2006 04:49 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios I love all the above posts, but can someone comment on my original question?

Veritas | 07-17-2006 04:52 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by cb&julie (Post 302059) I love all the above posts, but can someone comment on my original question?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ood_poster.jpg

cb&julie | 07-17-2006 04:54 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by Veritas (Post 302065) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ood_poster.jpg
Can I interpret from your post that when AHBL one man will take on an entire town in Oregon and not kill anyone (save the guy in the chopper but that was an accident)?

silverJeep | 07-17-2006 05:08 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Trust me on this, any world where Kevin Costner is the hero is NOT the world I want to live in. I liked Waterworld a lot better when it was called The Road Warrior. (some of you will get that later). The Postman was a good movie, even though I dislike Costner. ...sorry CB, I know I'm not answering your question. The big cities will be far worse than Hollywood has imagined. The rural areas will probably be much like some of the movies we've seen. The big cities will get REAL bad REAL fast, then better quickly (every one will leave). Think about how many people live above the 2nd floor in NYC. If you give them ANY amount of time without power (elevators) they will leave by the millions. Doubt if anyone is really accurate since we can only base it on the unknown. The Great Depression isn't an accurate picture because the world is totally different. The attitude is totally different. More ME, FAT, LAZY oriented.

Infidel | 07-17-2006 05:12 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=21537

cb&julie | 07-17-2006 05:14 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by silverJeep (Post 302091) Trust me on this, any world where Kevin Costner is the hero is NOT the world I want to live in. I liked Waterworld a lot better when it was called The Road Warrior. (some of you will get that later). The Postman was a good movie, even though I dislike Costner. ...sorry CB, I know I'm not answering your question. The big cities will be far worse than Hollywood has imagined. The rural areas will probably be much like some of the movies we've seen. The big cities will get REAL bad REAL fast, then better quickly (every one will leave). Think about how many people live above the 2nd floor in NYC. If you give them ANY amount of time without power (elevators) they will leave by the millions. Doubt if anyone is really accurate since we can only base it on the unknown. The Great Depression isn't an accurate picture because the world is totally different. The attitude is totally different. More ME, FAT, LAZY oriented.
Like many here, I'd like to build a home defense complex somewhere out in the country. I've been thinking about ways to fortify and defend it for sometime. The DIY gatling gun, made from 2 Ruger 10/22s seems like the ultimate in heavy, fortified defense. Although a single 22 round is very low powered, 4 a second could break through armor. Plus, that ammo is the cheapest of all. When AHBL, ammo caches will be important. Most people will have the guns but not the ammo.

drafter | 07-17-2006 05:17 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios I think the only thing that could bring about any of those movie scenarios would be some kind of worldwide EMP event, and even then I don't think it would last for more than a year. As long electricity exists life goes on. The nuclear removal of a major city like NY or LA would probably interrupt American Idol for awhile, but short of the entire world being reduced to rubble, we'd be right back at it in no time.

eat_beef | 07-17-2006 05:27 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios How many times you recon you could lay down a 4 second burst before the barrels melted down? Sorry, but a 10/22 isn't made to take the kind of stress you're talking about. Wouldn't last long. Best thing you can have for defense is armed, like minded people. And a lot of them. I figure if you can make the first couple of months in a 'mad max' world, you'll be alright. You'll be past the combat learning curve, and enough folks will have starved to put a major dent in the roaming bands of zombies. Then the bad stuff starts. You know, the new roaming bands of zombies, with blue helmets.

softserve320 | 07-17-2006 05:32 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios I'm partial to Mad Max. Not to say that that is the most likely of the three scenarios but it's an exciting thought to have some roads to open it up on. Especially if we're talking about the beefed up 70's muscle cars. I was raised on driving them and have quite a penchant for em still. :driver: Room Zoom! To bad the leather,feathers and metal mesh just wouldn't look right with this populace. It'd end up looking like a Mel Brooks parody :thumpdown I guess I'd stick out a bit with everyone else wearing walmart specials:rolleyes:

cb&julie | 07-17-2006 05:33 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 302120) How many times you recon you could lay down a 4 second burst before the barrels melted down? Sorry, but a 10/22 isn't made to take the kind of stress you're talking about. Wouldn't last long. Best thing you can have for defense is armed, like minded people. And a lot of them. I figure if you can make the first couple of months in a 'mad max' world, you'll be alright. You'll be past the combat learning curve, and enough folks will have starved to put a major dent in the roaming bands of zombies. Then the bad stuff starts. You know, the new roaming bands of zombies, with blue helmets.
Have you seen the gun? I agree that it wouldn't take constant stress but the barrells have heat-sink type dissipating material on them. The idea is to have a lot of arms and a lot of ammo. In a firefight, you'll want to change guns frequently to avoid any overheat. I figure 2 gatlings, at least, in well mounted positions with high powered scoped rifles and some other, multi-round rifle like an AK-47. You're right, with a group of like-minded people, worth a damn, you could hold out and even build the beginnings of a new society.

cb&julie | 07-17-2006 05:35 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by softserve320 (Post 302125) I'm partial to Mad Max. Not to say that that is the most likely of the three scenarios but it's an exciting thought to have some roads to open it up on. Especially if we're talking about the beefed up 70's muscle cars. I was raised on driving them and have quite a penchant for em still. :driver: Room Zoom! To bad the leather,feathers and metal mesh just wouldn't look right with this populace. It'd end up looking like a Mel Brooks parody :thumpdown I guess I'd stick out a bit with everyone else wearing walmart specials:rolleyes:
I agree, but I would rather have a beefed up and armored truck, complete with a crew to defend it. A 4X4 1 ton pick-up (preferable diesel for the gas miles and ability to power with bio) could be armored and used for considerable purpose.

Book | 07-17-2006 05:39 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by cb&julie (Post 302105) Like many here, I'd like to build a home defense complex somewhere out in the country. I've been thinking about ways to fortify and defend it for sometime. The DIY gatling gun, made from 2 Ruger 10/22s seems like the ultimate in heavy, fortified defense. Although a single 22 round is very low powered, 4 a second could break through armor. Plus, that ammo is the cheapest of all. When AHBL, ammo caches will be important. Most people will have the guns but not the ammo.
Many of us here have gone through that phase. My suggestion remains read Lucifer's Hammer because it deals with what you are considering...scenarios and Human Nature. When you settle down you will understand that talk about a Ruger 10/22 to hold back the hoard of drug-crazed zombies is...ahem...premature. Read the book and think on this whole scenarios thingie for some time. A .22 cal is silly for what you are suggesting now. Time better spent in the GIM Survival Prep Section. Good luck and don't get overwhelmed. :smile:

softserve320 | 07-17-2006 05:54 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by cb&julie (Post 302131) I agree, but I would rather have a beefed up and armored truck, complete with a crew to defend it. A 4X4 1 ton pick-up (preferable diesel for the gas miles and ability to power with bio) could be armored and used for considerable purpose.
4X4's would be the priority but yet an armored car with a bored out 350 would do just fine. As a female I prefer the speed factor. Got to be able to loose em:D

Veritas | 07-17-2006 05:55 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Read this: http://www.libertybookshop.us/images...uences-150.jpg

cb&julie | 07-17-2006 06:01 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by softserve320 (Post 302159) 4X4's would be the priority but yet an armored car with a bored out 350 would do just fine. As a female I prefer the speed factor. Got to be able to loose em:D
Actually, for pure speed get a motorcycle

softserve320 | 07-17-2006 06:06 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by cb&julie (Post 302170) Actually, for pure speed get a motorcycle
True, but I have to have the armor. Speed and protection both. Plus, where would I put all my ammo?

gunner | 07-17-2006 06:06 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios NOW we're talkin' !!!:coolbeer: :clap2:

cb&julie | 07-17-2006 06:09 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by gasilat (Post 302178) Just a couple of thoughts...look for property in the country that borders a national park, wildlife refuge or other large uninhabited piece of public land that in a long emergency could supplement basic needs like firewood, fishing, what have you. Also, if in the rare chance conditions got too crazy to stay in that remote location you could literally walk to safety in the woods. My primary residence borders a national wildlife refuge.
Very good advice. Plus, if it were near a park it probably wouln't be near large amounts of people.

gunner | 07-17-2006 06:18 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Going back to the gatling gun question, they do make AK47 kits as well. I haven't fired one in gatling gun form, but in the video I've seen, it looks like it's shooting all over the place. http://gatlingguns.com/indexframeset.html Keep in mind that a main battle weapon is good to have and IMO a necessity, but understand that what's even more important is having like-minded individuals that can help support your shelter. Eventually you'll have to sleep, someone with firearm proficiency will be needed to watch out during shifts. Since attacks often come at night, a set of night vision goggles might be a wise investment. There's probably a lot more items on the must get list than twin AKs (which are very inaccurate rifles to begin with), especially when secured to a moveable tripod base, being fired with a hand crank. As far as the fun factor or shooting killer zombies like in Dawn of the Dead with one - it would be like a trip to adult Disneyland for me !! Site location - definitely rural, bordering a state park would have many advantages and be my number 1 choice

gunner | 07-17-2006 06:29 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Still trying to figure out the gov't response to a AHBL scenario. I agree with EatBeef - blue helmet wearing marauders sent to disarm, secure supplies and round up chattle would be my best guess - using the "keeping us safe" excuse as the justification. The average unprepared sheeple will run to the gov't for their block of cheese and bowl of soup. New Orleans type situations might exist in urban centers - I avoid them now anyway.

eat_beef | 07-17-2006 06:30 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios A friend of mine actually lived through the poo in propeller in Africa. For decades. He said ALL that they used was shotguns and buckshot. His logic was, if someone was out of shotgun range, he either wasn't a threat or he could sneak up on him. Of course, if you live in a desert, this wouldn't work.

eat_beef | 07-17-2006 06:34 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Oh yeah, back to the original point, I can't believe no one mentioned Red Dawn. Patrick Swayze saves the world? :rolleyes: A classic for sure.

Book | 07-17-2006 06:44 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Like many here, I'd like to build a home defense complex somewhere out in the country. -cb&julie
Let's keep our eye on the ball before we escape to Hollywood fantasies. Are the wife and kids now exposed to a clear and present insecurity situation? :smile:

Keef | 07-17-2006 08:36 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios 2 Attachment(s) Who needs Hollywood? The greeter at Walmart might look a lil different, but otherwise there won't be anything u haven't seen before.

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REV127 | 07-17-2006 09:42 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios AK's aren't that inaccurate. Lots of people can't shoot well to begin with and Chinese machinegun ammo with built in dispersion didn't help the reputation. A quality AK shooting quality ammo can deliver 2-3moa in 7.62x39. Some are very much more acccurate than that. The underfolding stocks don't help accuracy and the standard sights are fast but have a short sight radius. It hardly matters since side folders and rail systems for more advanced optical sights are available over the counter. I like when the rear site falls off the poorly designed AK crank gun. Such weapons do have some application in point defense when better constructed and well mounted in a prepared position but that particular configuration is just a way to burn ammo and tear up your lawn. Besides, you don't need a crank. Anybody who knows how to handle an AK knows how to bumpfire. Full auto effect, no extra parts since it's a technique not a conversion, lots more accurate and shoulder fireable. A Rob Arms Vepr is built on a Soviet light machinegun reciever, it can definately take the heat. It is also one of the most accurate AK's you can buy for your money, in some calibers they'll shoot under 2moa.

Walter Mitty | 07-17-2006 10:21 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios I suggest you look at the www.Survivalblog.com web site. No scenarios posted but there is alot of good info.

cb&julie | 07-17-2006 11:10 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by Keef (Post 302329) Who needs Hollywood? The greeter at Walmart might look a lil different, but otherwise there won't be anything u haven't seen before.
Phil Fulmer is such an SOB... UTenn got what they deserved with a losing season last year.

Keef | 07-17-2006 11:43 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios And of course, u might want to pick up one of these from the Home Shopping Nework: http://www.jokaroo.com/funnyvideos/ak_47_for_sale.html

cb&julie | 07-17-2006 11:51 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by Keef (Post 302468) And of course, u might want to pick up one of these from the Home Shopping Nework: http://www.jokaroo.com/funnyvideos/ak_47_for_sale.html
Love your signature- have seen Mr. Z half a dozen times...

AMforPM | 07-18-2006 01:18 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios I don't expect the Mad Max version (though of course anything is possible). If it gets that bad most of humanity will die off pretty fast. And there are so many humans currently, that that course might actually make life better for about 3 generations later. I expect a depression worse than 29, environmental degradation of many kinds that create serious problems, assorted wars (and how bad they are will perhaps determine a lot), epidemics, famines in many areas, and a significantly lower standard of living in first world countries. I think it is in progress now, and has been in progress. If it can be kept gradual, people will adapt. Home gardens, small home power production for basic things to keep the refrigerator going in an outage, roof water collection... there are many ways to be more self sufficient in an ordinary suburban house in a less dependable infrastructure. More bicycles, more small electric transportation... adaptation. If there is sudden change to much worse function of food and water and power reaching households without time for people to adapt then things might go through a Mad Max phase, and if we have a nuclear war, then the Mad Max world might happen to survivors. A nephew just visited and we were surprised he was storing food and preparing and he was surprised we were. (We had not seen him in several years.) I hope a lot of people are. It is SO CHEAP now, compared to total income, to put aside a year of food staples, seed, tools, a simple water system. Most Americans can do it. I just hope that many, many do.

cb&julie | 07-18-2006 09:32 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by AMforPM (Post 302541) I don't expect the Mad Max version (though of course anything is possible). If it gets that bad most of humanity will die off pretty fast. And there are so many humans currently, that that course might actually make life better for about 3 generations later. I expect a depression worse than 29, environmental degradation of many kinds that create serious problems, assorted wars (and how bad they are will perhaps determine a lot), epidemics, famines in many areas, and a significantly lower standard of living in first world countries. I think it is in progress now, and has been in progress. If it can be kept gradual, people will adapt. Home gardens, small home power production for basic things to keep the refrigerator going in an outage, roof water collection... there are many ways to be more self sufficient in an ordinary suburban house in a less dependable infrastructure. More bicycles, more small electric transportation... adaptation. If there is sudden change to much worse function of food and water and power reaching households without time for people to adapt then things might go through a Mad Max phase, and if we have a nuclear war, then the Mad Max world might happen to survivors. A nephew just visited and we were surprised he was storing food and preparing and he was surprised we were. (We had not seen him in several years.) I hope a lot of people are. It is SO CHEAP now, compared to total income, to put aside a year of food staples, seed, tools, a simple water system. Most Americans can do it. I just hope that many, many do.
Actually, I think the Mad Max/Road Warrior scenario is the most likely. I doubt an epidemic would do anything more than reduce the population, not eliminate law and order. I don't see a widescale nuke attack occuring, it would simply kill everyone. MM/RW is what will happen with peak oil (not debateable in my opinion, oil is finite, whether it happens today or in 100, even if the entire earth is made of oil it will still run out) society will slowly recede as the power that keeps it going deplenishes. Since our systems of law and order are based on these assumptions, in the areas outside of control roving gangs will be the 'law.'

eat_beef | 07-18-2006 10:08 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Take a step back and look at the big picture. The trend is toward more govt., more centralized power. Any mad max/ anarchy scenario will be short lived, contrived, and only used to steal more of our liberty, which will in turn be delivered to the police state. :thumbs do

cb&julie | 07-18-2006 10:15 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 302706) Take a step back and look at the big picture. The trend is toward more govt., more centralized power. Any mad max/ anarchy scenario will be short lived, contrived, and only used to steal more of our liberty, which will in turn be delivered to the police state. :thumbs do
Very true, but only free markets can innovate and invent. Thus, greater government control combined with less available oil means that they will actually destroy the mechanisms by which they exercise power. It all goes together, right? I, for one, don't see the government exacting any higher per cent of taxes simply because they need a private sector to rape -- and if you tax it to death you destroy that base. Their level of power cannot be maintained in an energy crisis. It takes a tiny amount of oil to run a large homestead with several families living and working on it. It takes a massive amount of oil to bring in the men and equipment to siege and capture the place. It takes little oil for roving bands on motorcycles to wreck havok and massive amounts to marshall the police forces to stop them.

eat_beef | 07-18-2006 10:59 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios While I agree that total worldwide dictatorship is unsustainable, it is possible. Look at the Soviets. It took what, 70 years for that to collapse? I look for 7 this time. It won't take all that much energy at all. Roll up with a tank and a company of storm troops. You want to assimilate? Good, get in the trucks. No. Boom, you're all dead. Next homestead.

cb&julie | 07-18-2006 11:04 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 302766) While I agree that total worldwide dictatorship is unsustainable, it is possible. Look at the Soviets. It took what, 70 years for that to collapse? I look for 7 this time. It won't take all that much energy at all. Roll up with a tank and a company of storm troops. You want to assimilate? Good, get in the trucks. No. Boom, you're all dead. Next homestead.
All over rural america? and no one puts up a fight? I agree that they'll come with the tanks and choppers but there are ways to resist even this kind of pressure -- not easy or very likely to win, but I'd rather try then live in that world.

fasTTcar | 07-18-2006 11:18 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by cb&julie (Post 302713) Very true, but only free markets can innovate and invent. Thus, greater government control combined with less available oil means that they will actually destroy the mechanisms by which they exercise power. It all goes together, right? I, for one, don't see the government exacting any higher per cent of taxes simply because they need a private sector to rape -- and if you tax it to death you destroy that base. Their level of power cannot be maintained in an energy crisis. It takes a tiny amount of oil to run a large homestead with several families living and working on it. It takes a massive amount of oil to bring in the men and equipment to siege and capture the place. It takes little oil for roving bands on motorcycles to wreck havok and massive amounts to marshall the police forces to stop them.
Very true, but if you control the oil distribution, you can choke off everyone pretty quickly.

cb&julie | 07-18-2006 11:26 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by fasTTcar (Post 302781) Very true, but if you control the oil distribution, you can choke off everyone pretty quickly.
Like they "control" the drug trade? Criminals will still get gas illegally.

eat_beef | 07-18-2006 11:26 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios I'm not saying we cannot or will not fight. I'm just saying we won't win. In either scenario, you're fighting the goobermint thugs, not mad max. Like I said, roaming hoards of non gov zombies won't last long.

cb&julie | 07-18-2006 11:29 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 302798) I'm not saying we cannot or will not fight. I'm just saying we won't win. In either scenario, you're fighting the goobermint thugs, not mad max. Like I said, roaming hoards of non gov zombies won't last long.
Don't give up! Yes, I agree that the chances are slim. What did Washington think that Christmas night when he crossed the Deleware River...

eat_beef | 07-18-2006 11:45 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Oh, don't worry about me. For some reason, the worse I'm beaten the harder I fight. No Hope is roughly equivelent to No Fear.:goodnight

SilverbackAg | 07-18-2006 11:47 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by cb&julie (Post 302803) Don't give up! Yes, I agree that the chances are slim. What did Washington think that Christmas night when he crossed the Deleware River...
He didn't have to deal with an AC-130 blowing him off of his homestead either. http://factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000560.html or an apache http://www.globalresearch.ca/audiovideo/apachehit.mpg If you think you have any chance againts these your smoken the good stuff. Best just to lie low and not to draw attention.

cb&julie | 07-18-2006 11:47 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 302820) Oh, don't worry about me. For some reason, the worse I'm beaten the harder I fight. No Hope is roughly equivelent to No Fear.:goodnight
As this board indicates, you'll have a lot of brave and patrotic souls standing with you:coolbeer:

fasTTcar | 07-18-2006 11:59 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by cb&julie (Post 302796) Like they "control" the drug trade? Criminals will still get gas illegally.
When gas goes for $100 a gram like coke, maybe. It is a little harder for any volume substance like refined fuel. I would think that in the shtf scenarios that are being discussed, biodiesels will be a heck of lot easier to come by than oil products.

cb&julie | 07-18-2006 12:01 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by fasTTcar (Post 302838) When gas goes for $100 a gram like coke, maybe. It is a little harder for any volume substance like refined fuel. I would think that in the shtf scenarios that are being discussed, biodiesels will be a heck of lot easier to come by than oil products.
In my above post I mentioned the usefulness of a heavy armored 4X4 truck that ran on diesel so you could use bio. Same would apply to a heavilly armored van.

REV127 | 07-18-2006 12:04 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Yes, a great number of brave patriots will die fighting Abrams tanks, Apaches and AC-130's. It will be a tragic loss, but unfortunately most people do not realize winning the war against such a draconian regime is NOT about winning conventional battles or anti-personnel warfare. The police state has lots of manpower at its disposal and owns conventional warfare. What you need to be focussing on is logistical warfare and anti-materiel operations. Attack and destroy critical support assets like fuel, ammunition and spare parts. Dammage/destroy the vehicles while they're parked, not while they're fighting. Skilled pilots are also a scarce commodity, kill them while they're blowing off some steam at the local bar. Destroy the public surveilance equipment like all the street corner cameras, dammage or destroy patrol vehicles while the enforcers are busy doing other things. You can't kill them all so don't try, just saddle them with one enormous repair bill. Sooner or later either they won't be able to maintain their equipment or else they'll have to devote a much greater percentage of their resources to gaurding their supply chain which will effectively put them on the defensive. It is like arguing with an idiot, drag them down to your level and then beat them with experience. Deny them tactical overmatch. They own the night, so don't operate at night. You can spot them as easily as they can spot you in broad daylight, if you can see them you can engage or escape. Their weapons are calculated to destroy fixed defenses, so don't have any. Their weapons and tactics are designed to quickly destroy large groups, so don't be a large group. A two man team is enough for the work that really needs to get done and shooting a million dollar missile to kill two guys will be very impressive at first, and totally unsustainable. It is more than possible to win against such an enemy, you just have to use the right tactics. Toe-to-toe scrapping isn't it. After all this time we still haven't managed to rid Iraq of insurgents. Now just imagine if those guys could shoot straight, had no interest in becoming martyrs and understood how to undermine logistical support instead of moralle.

cb&julie | 07-18-2006 12:09 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 302848) Yes, a great number of brave patriots will die fighting Abrams tanks, Apaches and AC-130's. It will be a tragic loss, but unfortunately most people do not realize winning the war against such a draconian regime is NOT about winning conventional battles or anti-personnel warfare. The police state has lots of manpower at its disposal and owns conventional warfare. What you need to be focussing on is logistical warfare and anti-materiel operations. Attack and destroy critical support assets like fuel, ammunition and spare parts. Dammage/destroy the vehicles while they're parked, not while they're fighting. Skilled pilots are also a scarce commodity, kill them while they're blowing off some steam at the local bar. Destroy the public surveilance equipment like all the street corner cameras, dammage or destroy patrol vehicles while the enforcers are busy doing other things. You can't kill them all so don't try, just saddle them with one enormous repair bill. Sooner or later either they won't be able to maintain their equipment or else they'll have to devote a much greater percentage of their resources to gaurding their supply chain which will effectively put them on the defensive. It is like arguing with an idiot, drag them down to your level and then beat them with experience. Deny them tactical overmatch. They own the night, so don't operate at night. You can spot them as easily as they can spot you in broad daylight, if you can see them you can engage or escape. Their weapons are calculated to destroy fixed defenses, so don't have any. Their weapons and tactics are designed to quickly destroy large groups, so don't be a large group. A two man team is enough for the work that really needs to get done and shooting a million dollar missile to kill two guys will be very impressive at first, and totally unsustainable. It is more than possible to win against such an enemy, you just have to use the right tactics. Toe-to-toe scrapping isn't it. After all this time we still haven't managed to rid Iraq of insurgents. Now just imagine if those guys could shoot straight, had no interest in becoming martyrs and understood how to undermine logistical support instead of moralle.
Iraq had a military budget of 1/4 of 1% of ours. We have yet to achieve victory there. Case well stated and understood.

Veritas | 07-18-2006 03:13 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios I agree with those who stated that American Patriot "Resisters" have no chance at defeating the American Military if some type of Civil War broke out on our soil (Patriots vs. Goverment). HOWEVER, this scenario is only likely to happen on a Hollywood film set. If SHTF, our government is likely to face attacks on several fronts. We are in the midst of several foreign military engagements already and none of them seem to be drawing to a close. If our economy does indeed tank, as would be the cause of such a doomsday scenario, then there will not be a whole lot of manpower to fight any type of domestic resistance in the U.S. What we will find is that many of the "soldiers" will leave their units and return home to protect their wives and children. When police officers stop receiving a paycheck, or when they discover that their paychecks are worthless, they will return home as civilians as well. It may also be seen as an opportune time by our foreign enemies to launch attacks against desired targets within our borders. If that happens the government will become entirely ineffective and a Mad Max or Postman scenario becomes more likely than ever.

eat_beef | 07-18-2006 03:35 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios The Iraq situation has no relevance. The guys in Iraq are fighting a "war" designed to be perpetual. IE, no one wins. Take the gloves/shackles off the troops and let them do what they are trained to do and see how long there is any resistance in Iraq. IOW, guerrillas don't last too long when everyone not wearing the proper ID implant is shot on sight.

cb&julie | 07-18-2006 03:45 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 303106) The Iraq situation has no relevance. The guys in Iraq are fighting a "war" designed to be perpetual. IE, no one wins. Take the gloves/shackles off the troops and let them do what they are trained to do and see how long there is any resistance in Iraq. IOW, guerrillas don't last too long when everyone not wearing the proper ID implant is shot on sight.
Take the gloves/shackles off American Patriots protecting their property and family... How many American troops will attack their own citizens... not all of them, I'd wager.

eat_beef | 07-18-2006 03:51 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Two words: Blue Hats. Come on, get with the program. Us vs. them is the people vs. TPTB, not the US vs. some other country. The same folks telling our .gov what to do are telling "our enemy's" govs what to do. Patriots are around, but vastly outnumbered by sheep.

cb&julie | 07-18-2006 03:52 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 303106) The Iraq situation has no relevance. The guys in Iraq are fighting a "war" designed to be perpetual. IE, no one wins. Take the gloves/shackles off the troops and let them do what they are trained to do and see how long there is any resistance in Iraq. IOW, guerrillas don't last too long when everyone not wearing the proper ID implant is shot on sight.
There are so many holes in this argument. Are you saying that the troops have been trained to kill everyone indescriminately? Don't you find it odd that with the advent of total warfare (WWI and beyond) that the rise of war related neurosis also developed? People cannot be trained to kill one another like mad -- only a small percent can handle such mental stress. Older ages of warfare were not characterized by massive amounts of battle deaths. Thus, while warfare may have been more prevelant, it was less bloody and a far smaller % of people took part in it. Unless they use drugs or something else to turn soldiers into mass murderers, I think your vision of doom is psychologically untenable.

Ponce Cuba | 07-18-2006 04:09 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Spent the last couple of days at the VA Hospital for a 100% check up and everything is looking good........ my VA Dr. and his wife are still moving in with me WTSHTF so no problem in that department......he is starting to get as much prescription medecines and drugs as he can. Love The Postman movie, more than the Mac Mac crazie world.

cb&julie | 07-18-2006 04:13 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponce Cuba (Post 303144) Spent the last couple of days at the VA Hospital for a 100% check up and everything is looking good........ my VA Dr. and his wife are still moving in with me WTSHTF so no problem in that department......he is starting to get as much prescription medecines and drugs as he can. Love The Postman movie, more than the Mac Mac crazie world.
Ponce, I'll let Julie know everything went well. Good to see you are back. CB

softserve320 | 07-18-2006 05:21 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponce Cuba (Post 303144) Spent the last couple of days at the VA Hospital for a 100% check up and everything is looking good........ my VA Dr. and his wife are still moving in with me WTSHTF so no problem in that department......he is starting to get as much prescription medecines and drugs as he can. Love The Postman movie, more than the Mac Mac crazie world.
Glad your doing well.....:beer: I'm curious, what was the cause of your inner ear/dizziness? Care to share?

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Gold & Silver Forum - Let's discuss some scenarios

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fasTTcar | 07-18-2006 05:33 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by softserve320 (Post 303241) I'm curious, what was the cause of your inner ear/dizziness? Care to share?
Let me guess, a twinge of thought that all the problems in his life and others were not caused by Zionists. Maybe an even thoughts that an entire race of people should not be wiped out because he doesn't agree with them. That would have been a hell of a shock to his system.

softserve320 | 07-18-2006 05:47 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Early in this thread I was just playing with the possibilies. Reading the posts has got me thinking more on the serious side. I've got my supplies and will just keep building from here. There are just to many variables though. Speculation is a mind game which for me is usually fun. Though it does serve a purpose and that is to playout the 'what would you do if's'. This builds a base stragedy with which to pull from in real life when things fall apart. That aside.... To modify gas engines to take alcohol is really not difficult. But all engine mod's are all subject to parts avaliability. You'll use what you have and make it work, whatever that is. Buying instructional manuals for building , mechanic's, urban and rural survival etc is something I believe to be important too. :beer:

Ponce Cuba | 07-18-2006 05:53 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios I was told that the hairs in your ear have some small balls at the end that keeps everything in balance but once in a while they fall of and makes your head go haywired...... the same happened to two persons at this site and at the same time on saturday morning. Feel about 95% better but still feel something......

softserve320 | 07-18-2006 06:02 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponce Cuba (Post 303281) I was told that the hairs in your ear have some small balls at the end that keeps everything in balance but once in a while they fall of and makes your head go haywired...... the same happened to two persons at this site and at the same time on saturday morning. Feel about 95% better but still feel something......
So your problem was...hair balls? :wink: Um... not sure what to say about the validity of this hair ball theory Ponce. You do have little balls suspended in fluid in your inner ears that facilitate equalibrium...I'll have to check out the VA's hair ball theory....thats a new one to me. Glad your better:clap2:

REV127 | 07-18-2006 07:10 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios It is completely stupid that they have turned this war into a kangaroo court, but "taking the gloves off" wouldn't change anything. First off our troops aren't trained to kill everyone who doesn't have a transmitter, neither are the blue helmets. That wouldn't even be sustainable because that kind of mega-kill is going to galvanize the whole population against you because they don't want to be shot just because their batteries wore out or the scanner did. Second, our troops aren't trained to go up against low tech individuals and small groups that don't present themselves as targets. Our law enforcement agencies are trained to do exactly that and they are met with very mixed results in a nation that is by a wide margin stable and lawful. Foreign troops on US soil are also not difficult to deal with. Again, you don't confront them head to head, that is just stupid. You get a rifle that has some legs, say 400 or 500 yards, you find a suitable place to set up either by yourself or with a small team of riflemen, you fire a volley at a group of the blue helmets and fade away, preferable in different directions. If you have a good team of real marksmen you can do even better. You can shoot the enemy radio man and machinegunners, or else the radio and guns themselves, and then take another volley or two before fading away. You aren't trying to fight a war, you're just assassinating the enemy as the enemy presents itself as a target. You can do other tricks, too, like set a couple tires on fire near an enemy encampment, when they step outside the wire to check it out they walk into a killzone. There's a million such tricks you can play, and again the net effect is to imobilize them. One you know where they're holed up you can set a big fire. Sure, most of them will escape, but again your riflemen are sitting back several hundred yards, picking a few more off. We fire our guns and the blue helmets kept a coming, there wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago... Americans aren't Iraqis. We can shoot straight and we recieve more glory for killing the enemy than being martyred.

cb&julie | 07-18-2006 07:27 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Rev: You are completely correct. There are so many ways to immobilize an invading force without fighting them with 'conventional' tactics. A general populace and well-armed and trained as ours (especially the members of this forum) could outwit and shoot a professional force. Your idea about snipering is great -- how many infantry soldiers go to the range at least once a week? I do, and I wager I'm not alone or special in that with all the hunters and gun enthusiasts in this country.

softserve320 | 07-18-2006 08:50 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by WideOpen (Post 303396) :shot: "When we ask for advice, we are usually looking for an accomplice." Marquis de la Grange DEPOSITION TRANSCRIPTS :call: " . . . i'm Lame" :call2: ". . . i'm Lame too" :aetsch:
Who ya talkin to Wideopen?

eat_beef | 07-18-2006 09:22 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios I forget who said, "No one ever went broke banking on the stupidity of his fellow Americans", or something similar. You think the 80+% of the population which are sheep are going to "rise up" to help you, I don't. I think for a crumb, or a tin star, they'll sell you down the river. If I recall correctly, both of you guys claim to be Christians. Read the Book. Now tell me where it says anything about it getting better before it gets a WHOLE lot worse. I plan to be prepared to flee, fight as a guerilla, fight to the death, or peacefully give my life for my testimony, whichever my Savior asks me to do. [zips up asbestos coveralls]

negative1 | 07-19-2006 02:16 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 303487) You think the 80+% of the population which are sheep are going to "rise up" to help you, I don't. I think for a crumb, or a tin star, they'll sell you down the river.
The conversation was about the 20 or so percent that would "rise up". The sell outs and sheep are a sad given in any conflict. They will be useful to all sides but they will also be despised by all sides. -1

Jasper | 07-19-2006 05:22 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponce Cuba (Post 303281) I was told that the hairs in your ear have some small balls at the end that keeps everything in balance but once in a while they fall of and makes your head go haywired......
Ponce, the only balls you need to worry about falling off are the ones between your legs. There are no 'balls' in the inner ear. Your dizziness, etc., may have been caused by a slight increase in the amount of fluid in the canals of the inner ear. If that's the case you may have what's known as Meniere's Disease, or you may have an infection or a small growth that's causing pressure. The symptoms you described in an earlier post can be caused by lots of things. Whatever the case, you'd be wise to get a thorough checkup by a good inner ear specialist. And try cutting back on salt, or switching to a good sea salt. You take care.

REV127 | 07-19-2006 09:36 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Yeah, I'm not looking to the sheep to rise up. They won't, but there are still some real Americans out there who will fight for what they believe in. It doesn't take too many to get the job done, the whole objective is to avoid direct head to head conflict in the first place. If you're asking about things getting a lot better before they get worse, well, the book says we'll be facing two adversaries. I'm not worried about our own kind, people are people. What I find much more frightening is the prospect of fighting angels and nephilim. I can handle tin pot dictators, quasi-supernatural beings are a whole nother situation entirely. Due to the nature of the work I've done I've already had a preview of this latter threat, it's heavy. Fortunately we have backup.

TheSimpleton | 07-26-2006 07:21 AM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios To discuss scenarios, you should get a book on "How Things Work". The transition to modern war occured when the whole society was mobilized to support a distant "front" somewhere. To some extent Rome did the same thing. Point is this: wars are won when one side's underlying support structure fails. Societies and governments fall when their support structure fails: technical, moral or energetic. They cannot fall until that structure fails because until then, they have the resources to conscript more men who are still willing to abdicate their will and action. In USSR, this happened with people no longer being productive at work. In India, it was via massive non-support. In '80s Afghanistan and the new 4G wars, it was with keeping the enemy too busy CY(T)A to create more than a standoff to which the inhibitents must win. It doesn't matter if the offender's objective is complete extermination, the answer is if the people stop supporting the offender, they are helpless. (While on about movies, refer to V for Vendetta) That is, if the people in the country all have a personal, private, mortal bone to pick, then the offender cannot stand. They will be under attack from every side at every point. Every lightpole, crate, truck, wheel, keg, bullet and person, public or private is at risk. Only if outside forces or unequal force continually inject outside energy (as in Africa) can it continue. That is why the US in Bagdad will not win. They are now no longer safe on the airports, the roads, the green zones, or even inside their own embassies. ...That's not to say the US's point in going there ever was to "win"; strategically, they may have succeeded in creating the exact environment they intended. So if you talk of "winning" there's no point in talking of bullets, food, platoons, or trucks. The Irish won with nothing because they didn't stop fighting, and because no army, no police force, no gestapo can be everywhere. If the will of the people tolerates the resistence, they will win if they do it with sticks and stones. That's Sun Tzu. Wars require social complicity. Wars end when complicity stops. Thoreau. Stuff is generally useless when considering wars of this nature, because all the stuff will be used/taken/make you a target in very short order, and all that remains is the will, one beliefs about life, death and honor, and one's vision of the future. The Irish won because they retained the will to fight. The Afghanis, as far as I recall, have never yet been conquered for the same reason--the invaders come and after a few hundred years of insurgence, get tired of it. Tools, guns, knives, bullets, cars, armor, are all useless in this regard. Do you have the will to stand for what you believe and endure in it? Did I miss where John Patmos wrote about dark angels attacking J6P? Please direct me so I can re-read that part. PS, if you're in a MM scenario, where the heck do you think you'll get methyl, tires, parts, and washer fluid? Who cuts the trees off the roads and paves them? This is utter nonsense. The supply chain we all depend on is highly technical, specialized, fragile and expensive. Your wonderful, expensive machine will be stopped cold by the failure of a $2 part. Don't make the mistake central governments are making in centralizing all power/control/decisions, it's a fantasy that rests on the free energy of fossil fuels and boundless voluntary cooperation. If you were in "Education of Little Tree" or "Cold Mountain" where would you go? What survives the absolute and unending absence of spare parts and supplies except your intelligence, your moral code, and your will? Humanity is healthiest and most stable when most decentralized and unhealthiest and most fragile when most centralized. The moral code for human organization and justice is wired into the organism when not hijacked by stupid ideas. In that sense, dissolving into "roving bands" who show non-support would be the solution, not the problem. The only problem is the transition, as in all great changes. TS

thorgrim | 07-26-2006 06:58 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios There have been a lot of good ideas and brainstorming in this thread. As usual I have learned a few things which is why I think GIM is the best forum out there. My worst case scenario is this: I believe that all of this police state garbage and mind games they are playing right now is just a stalling tactic. They're hoping to keep us busy and fend of a revolution until they can bring out there ace in the hole. This ace would be automated armies. Machines, android / cyborg troops, unmanned battle vehicles ect. No emotion no morals, just programming. Once they achieve this I think were screwed. They wouldn't need local support or even a country as a home base all they would need is resources/money which they print so pretty much limitless. They are not that far away either. Look at what they are doing with robotics and Genetic engineering right now stuff that is unclassified. They have a stealth coat I saw. Read an article that now they can also do vehicles. Saw a TV program where there was a quadriplegic that was wired to a computer. He could control it with his mind. Also drive his wheel chair the same way. Or how about those remote control cockroaches. Yeah that�s right they can wire up a cock roach and "drive" it with a remote control. Supposedly they would use these for surveillance with tiny cameras/mics. Designer viruses...... Nano technology... So how long before they start using this type of stuff in warfare? I think logically this is the direction we�re headed. Small arms will be useless. If people don't wake up soon I fear I will see this stuff in my lifetime. Maybe those quasi godlike beings will be manmade. Man is always trying to play god. Hopefully you don�t take this too negatively I still have hope.

cb&julie | 07-26-2006 07:04 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Quote:
Originally Posted by thorgrim (Post 311478) My worst case scenario is this: I believe that all of this police state garbage and mind games they are playing right now is just a stalling tactic. They're hoping to keep us busy and fend of a revolution until they can bring out there ace in the hole. This ace would be automated armies. Machines, android / cyborg troops, unmanned battle vehicles ect. No emotion no morals, just programming. Once they achieve this I think were screwed.
I understand your fear, I have many of my own. As for this specfic one, take heart that artificial intelligence is a long way off or even impossible. Look at some of the research done on the subject. They've spent billions and only created the most mediocre of robots. Further, the amount of resources required for one robot like you describe would be so great that an army would be impossible.

wallew | 07-27-2006 01:47 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Well. I'm COMPLETELY disappointed. Has NO ONE heard of 'Dark Angel'? The TV series, not the two (three ?) movies. Some foreign country launches a nuke that explodes 85 miles up in our atmosphere that pretty much turns the whole North American continent into a third world country via a huge EMP pulse wave. Though they NEVER SAY, I've always wondered what the US reponse was to a lone nuclear weapon heading our way. Ignore it? Respond in kind? Respond with MASSIVE RETALIATION? Dark Angel is currently in reruns on SciFi channel on Monday night. I watch it now because of how they populate the background of the set. Fairly interesting view of how James Cameron thinks our country would look like after 'The Pulse'. And I gotta admit, Jessica Alba is sizzling hot. Not bad when she was what, eighteen, nineteen (she just turned 24)? "You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't piss into the wind, you tug on the mask of the Lone Ranger and YOU DON'T MESS AROUND WITH JIM" Jim Croce - RIP

Ponce Cuba | 07-27-2006 03:21 PM
Re: Let's discuss some scenarios Well I can only tell you what the Dr. told me...... they gave me some extra pill in case it happens again, last time was about three years ago..... also told me that it has to do with something about "getting up" to fast :albertein

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