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ajrocks | 05-08-2008 01:57 AM
water instead of gas I keep seeing these ads on the internet and on craigslist that talk about turning your engine into using water with the gas, 20.00 for the info. supposedly you can get a hundred mpg...has anyone tried this? http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm

Unclad Lad | 05-08-2008 03:17 AM
Re: water instead of gas OK, here's your first warning sign: Quote:
100% "water cars" and "water trucks" are still on the drawing board - but I'm excited to show you how you can start RIGHT NOW how to use to...
Your engine uses part of the heat energy it creates to recharge your battery and run all the electrical stuff in the car. This guy has a kit which takes some of the excess electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen (a process called "electrolysis"), which is then fed into the engine to be combusted. This will supposedly increase your MPG because your engine is now using less gasoline. The positive side is that, technically, you're using energy to do the work that would otherwise be wasted. My skepticism jumps when he throws out those fantastic improvements. The device might be everything he claims, but since he's selling it like a huckster with patent medicine in the wagon, I rather doubt it. But if you decide to spend the FRNs, let us know how well it works.

blueice | 05-08-2008 11:25 AM
Re: water instead of gas Quote:
Originally Posted by ajrocks (Post 1094575) I keep seeing these ads on the internet and on craigslist that talk about turning your engine into using water with the gas, 20.00 for the info. supposedly you can get a hundred mpg...has anyone tried this? http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm
ajrocks, Master Sukhoi Fan did a thread regarding that product... I believe he and his cohorts also purchased one of the kits and plan to install it...He has not reported back on the project...

mayhem | 05-08-2008 09:05 PM
Re: water instead of gas Don't know if it is the same tech.....but last nite in the nooze the channel had a device similar to what is described above installed on a Dodge SUV that was getting 8 miles per gallon. After the conversion they got 18. So does it work? They thought so. The price for the conversion was 1,500 frn's. They also have a kit for diesel enngines. Sorry, can't find a web link right now, battery getting low.

ajrocks | 05-08-2008 09:54 PM
Re: water instead of gas I did some reading last night, there seems to be some, oh i was wrong, it's 200 for the info. I thought maybe some gimmers might have done it,

StackerKen | 05-08-2008 10:13 PM
Re: water instead of gas On the last job I did I met an electrician that claimed to have made one of these type things that made hydrogen from water with some sort of fancy "electrolysis" . He said it would double your gas mileage. and after he got the 1st one on his car and worked out the kinks, he may be able to sell me one for bout 2 or 3 hundred bucks......I said I'll take three.....Two for me and one to sell for $1000...and then I'd buy 3 more....and so on...he said "keep in touch" I think I will call him... He said some guy invented one like it a while back and was offered a Billion dollars for the rights to it....The guy refused to sell......Wound up dead six months later from poisoning......

Golden Buoy | 05-08-2008 11:13 PM
Re: water instead of gas I still have a unit I bought as part of a MLM scheme I got involved in about 20 years ago. I wasted about $800. and 3 months of my time to market same. I did precise before and after calibrated fuel measurements, and I never saw any mileage improvements - least none I could hype. Sure it produces a gas that burns, but it is miniscule compared to the amount of gas and air required to run an engine. Also, the greater the amperage required for electolysis, the greater the horsepower required to turn the alternator - effectively washing out any potential benefit. Anybody want to buy my unit - Cheap at $250.

compass | 05-09-2008 12:30 AM
Re: water instead of gas I'm pretty sure that this will work quite well. You don't need to use the same battery that the car charges through the alternator. You can charge a battery at home very cheaply and then use that battery for generating the hydrogen on the go. Here's a video showing a VERY simple and easy to make hydrogen generator: <embed src="http://www.metacafe.com/fplayer/938147/build_hydrogen_generator_cell_with_household_items .swf" width="400" height="345" wmode="transparent" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> </embed><br><font size = 1><a href="http://www.metacafe.com/watch/938147/build_hydrogen_generator_cell_with_household_items/">Build Hydrogen Generator Cell With Household Items</a> - <a href="http://www.metacafe.com/">The best video clips are right here</a></font> <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5EBmlR2VBWw&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5EBmlR2VBWw&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object> <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wnv9dRWc6J8&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wnv9dRWc6J8&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

mike77777 | 05-09-2008 01:58 AM
Re: water instead of gas got the parts for my unit at true value today. the stainless steel shim stock and the stainless bolts were the most expensive. had to purchase a tap and drill bit also. started construction this afternoon, will give updates as work progresses. the plan is free on the web, the one i'm building looks like the simplest design possible, the plan publisher uses his hho generator in a v8 chev. unit is powered by 12 volts d.c., at approx 15 amperes, water is used in the generator with about a teaspoonful of red devil lye for a catalyst for the electrolysis of water into hho gas. claims to produce 1.7 liters/minute of gas, which is then piped into the intake manifold and burnred by the engine. have 52.00 dollars into it so far, will need relay,ammeter,wire and connectors to complete the installation. will be installed on the vw van, have a baseline 21 mpg after last weeks carb rebuild and 200 mile road trip.

Olmstein | 05-09-2008 02:49 AM
Re: water instead of gas Coast to Coast AM tonight, this is the topic.

TLM | 05-09-2008 10:04 AM
Re: water instead of gas I know two people that have done it, one on a ford ranger and one on a Nissan mini van, both told me they saw a 4 mpg improvement.

shades2 | 05-09-2008 11:18 AM
Re: water instead of gas Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclad Lad (Post 1094631) OK, here's your first warning sign: Your engine uses part of the heat energy it creates to recharge your battery and run all the electrical stuff in the car. This guy has a kit which takes some of the excess electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen (a process called "electrolysis"), which is then fed into the engine to be combusted. This will supposedly increase your MPG because your engine is now using less gasoline. The positive side is that, technically, you're using energy to do the work that would otherwise be wasted. My skepticism jumps when he throws out those fantastic improvements. The device might be everything he claims, but since he's selling it like a huckster with patent medicine in the wagon, I rather doubt it. But if you decide to spend the FRNs, let us know how well it works.
The alternator in the car parasitically draws power from the engine to charge the battery in the car. There is no excess available electricity that I'm aware of, at least not in a properly designed car, that would be inefficient and would damage the vehicle's electrics. The battery should soak up any excess power, and dissipate it in the form of heat. If you tap off this power source to run an electrolysis system you may cause your battery to discharge if it is not getting enough juice. What there is in the car, is excess heat coming off the engine due to normal efficiency losses, if you can harness that heat energy somehow and convert it to something useful then that may be a good idea. Somehow I think with all this electrolysis, that a gasoline engine is still designed to burn oxygen by throwing fuel into the cylinder and igniting fuel / air vapour mixture. Effectively they are feeding the engine some extracted hydrogen along with regular air. Normal air consists of (depending where you are in the case of water vapour): 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, trace amounts of other gases, and a variable amount (average around 1%) of water vapor. The engine and engine management system is not tuned to burn anything different, by introducing hydrogen you are making it more volatile, and doing strange things to the fuel / air mix for which a vehicle must be tuned. After all that hard work, it might be easier to buy nitrous or hydrogen in a bottle and feed that into the intake manifold. This would also be a highly effective and accurate way of determining any power or economy gains without having to modify the vehicle extensively. With these home-made systems it also remains to be seen if they can run dry and damage themselves. "Commercially, Canadian Hydrogen Energy Company, Ltd. produces an HFI system which generates hydrogen during vehicle operation by electrolysis of water (from an onboard storage tank) using power from the vehicle's electrical system. The units cost between $4000 to $14000 according to a 2005 Wired News article.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-11>[12]</SUP> CHEC claims the product provides a 10% fuel savings.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-12>[13]</SUP><SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-13>[14]</SUP> CHEC competitors filed a motion to stop CHEC from selling its HFI system, but in 2006, this motion was abandoned.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-14>[15]"</SUP> <SUP></SUP> <SUP>http://www.chechfi.ca/</SUP>

JoBob | 05-09-2008 12:21 PM
Re: water instead of gas Don't waste time messing around with mechanical gadgets! Why try for only a small increase in gas mileage using feeble electrolysis? I have some information so powerful you can use the information itself to generate energy and it will increase your gas mileage by a factor of a thousand! It's called the "There's a Sucker Born Every Minute" theory. Just rub my powerful, magic instruction sheet on your gas tank and you can drive for 125.58 months without refilling. Send me all your money and the secret shall be revealed. Testimonials available upon request. After all, if you read it, it must be true!

blueice | 05-10-2008 10:38 AM
Re: water instead of gas Quote:
Originally Posted by JoBob (Post 1096525) Don't waste time messing around with mechanical gadgets! Why try for only a small increase in gas mileage using feeble electrolysis? I have some information so powerful you can use the information itself to generate energy and it will increase your gas mileage by a factor of a thousand! It's called the "There's a Sucker Born Every Minute" theory. Just rub my powerful, magic instruction sheet on your gas tank and you can drive for 125.58 months without refilling. Send me all your money and the secret shall be revealed. Testimonials available upon request. After all, if you read it, it must be true!
:haha::haha::haha::haha:JoBob, you are a honest man...Sign me up!!!

StackerKen | 05-10-2008 12:20 PM
Re: water instead of gas Pure oxygen is flammable....Liquid Oxygen is even more so... Wonder why someone can't use that to increase gas mileage?

shades2 | 05-10-2008 01:47 PM
Re: water instead of gas Quote:
Originally Posted by traderken (Post 1097759) Pure oxygen is flammable....Liquid Oxygen is even more so... Wonder why someone can't use that to increase gas mileage?
For the same reason hydrogen hasn't caught on in a big way for small passenger vehicles. Idiot drivers would be blowing each other up and incinerating each other every day. A four car pileup would have a small mushroom cloud above it. You also have to expend energy to purify hydrogen or oxygen and presumably it's cheaper to process and burn dead dinosaur juice instead. Of course you knew this :) The short term answer is petrol-electric hybrids. The long term answer is the electric car. The problem with the electric car at present, is the grid was not designed with it in mind, if an entire city of people plugged in their electric car at night, even at a reasonably slow charge rate, the grid would die. Some people have thought of this, and used solar panels on their roof to offset the amps they suck, which works ok on sunny days, but not for most people who go to work in the morning and come home late afternoon or evening when solar isn't of much use. I don't like the biofuel idea. The world needs food more than it needs ethanol at this point, ethanol is also a poorer fuel than gasoline. Hybrid vehicles can, and will, fill the gap in the mean-time. They are coming on-stream real soon now for the masses. Therefore if fuel goes up in price, it's not such a tragedy if you have a hybrid car... get it? It's a way of forcing people over to hybrids... Long term, we will have grids that can support electric vehicles, but that may require some large-scale major upgrades to all capital cities which intend to have electric vehicles in a big way. GM were just a little before their time with the EV project. Of course it's possible to have electric buses and taxis, they are good candidates and the electrical grids can probably cope with just those getting charged up every evening. Battery technology is moving ahead in leaps and bounds, so fast charging may become viable at work for example... you just need a grid to cope with that.

JoBob | 05-10-2008 02:00 PM
Re: water instead of gas Quote:
Originally Posted by traderken (Post 1097759) Pure oxygen is flammable....Liquid Oxygen is even more so... Wonder why someone can't use that to increase gas mileage?
They probably could. By the time you add the needed refrigeration system, special pumps, and special combustion chamber, your Chevy would start looking like the space shuttle and be as heavy as an Abrams tank. Any efficiencies gained would be more than consumed by moving the additional weight around. As long as we are committed to gasoline, we have to live with what it does and simply make the vehicles smaller and lighter. I would hate giving up my 4WD but i can't blame anyone but me for the $80 fill-ups. Life is about trade-offs.

TonyG | 05-10-2008 08:26 PM
Re: water instead of gas Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 1096428) The alternator in the car parasitically draws power from the engine to charge the battery in the car. There is no excess available electricity that I'm aware of, at least not in a properly designed car, that would be inefficient and would damage the vehicle's electrics. The battery should soak up any excess power, and dissipate it in the form of heat. If you tap off this power source to run an electrolysis system you may cause your battery to discharge if it is not getting enough juice. What there is in the car, is excess heat coming off the engine due to normal efficiency losses, if you can harness that heat energy somehow and convert it to something useful then that may be a good idea. Somehow I think with all this electrolysis, that a gasoline engine is still designed to burn oxygen by throwing fuel into the cylinder and igniting fuel / air vapour mixture. Effectively they are feeding the engine some extracted hydrogen along with regular air. Normal air consists of (depending where you are in the case of water vapour): 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, trace amounts of other gases, and a variable amount (average around 1%) of water vapor. The engine and engine management system is not tuned to burn anything different, by introducing hydrogen you are making it more volatile, and doing strange things to the fuel / air mix for which a vehicle must be tuned. After all that hard work, it might be easier to buy nitrous or hydrogen in a bottle and feed that into the intake manifold. This would also be a highly effective and accurate way of determining any power or economy gains without having to modify the vehicle extensively. With these home-made systems it also remains to be seen if they can run dry and damage themselves. "Commercially, Canadian Hydrogen Energy Company, Ltd. produces an HFI system which generates hydrogen during vehicle operation by electrolysis of water (from an onboard storage tank) using power from the vehicle's electrical system. The units cost between $4000 to $14000 according to a 2005 Wired News article.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-11>[12]</SUP> CHEC claims the product provides a 10% fuel savings.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-12>[13]</SUP><SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-13>[14]</SUP> CHEC competitors filed a motion to stop CHEC from selling its HFI system, but in 2006, this motion was abandoned.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-14>[15]"</SUP> <SUP></SUP> <SUP>http://www.chechfi.ca/</SUP>
There are a few systems which alter the engines computer to allow for reduced oxygen levels in the exhaust. In addition, the 15 amps at 12 volts that would be drawn from the battery would not take that much extra power, but would make lots of volume of gasses to be fuzed back together during combustion. Takes up much less than a big stereo system or about the same as the cig lighter fuse can handle. With the alternator already running, this isnt' really an additional load.

Unclad Lad | 05-11-2008 01:49 AM
Re: water instead of gas Quote:
I don't like the biofuel idea. The world needs food more than it needs ethanol at this point, ethanol is also a poorer fuel than gasoline. Hybrid vehicles can, and will, fill the gap in the mean-time.
I don't like biofuels made from food-based sources. The current corn likker fuel craze is a stopgap measure, and a budgetary boon to the ag industry, not the rest of us. If we were really interested in alternate fuel there wouldn't be absurdly high tariffs on Brazilian ethanol made from sugarcane. The real breakthrough will be when we have commercially viable cellulosic ethanol--and butanol--production, and algal oil. Today's hybrids do not "fill the gap"; they get us thinking in the right direction, but they are more energy-intensive to make and use than current diesels. I once saw a paper that compared the total energy expenditure in the manufacture of the Prius vs the Hummer, and the Hummer is FAR more ecologically viable than the hybrid. How, you ask? With the Prius, the nickel for the batteries is first pit-mined in Ontario (in a region so polluted and poisoned by that mining that NASA used it to simulate moon landings during astronaut training!), then hauled by train to the West Coast, where it is shipped to China to be manufactured into batteries (and I'll bet THOSE factories are always hiring); the finishing process is done in Japan, after which the nearly-finished product is shipped back to China to finish the process. Then, of course, the new batteries are shipped across the ocean to Toyota's American factories to be put into the cars. When you consider all the BTUs expended for the process it's a wonder that the Prius is considered so "green". Well, actually it isn't, given that so many liberals believe that the image of a thing IS the thing, and that wishful thinking is equal to action. If we wanted to make a real difference instead of a perceived one there would be government incentives for purchasing clean diesels. But that ain't gonna happen.

killer2021 | 05-11-2008 02:13 AM
Re: water instead of gas Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclad Lad (Post 1098494) I don't like biofuels made from food-based sources. The current corn likker fuel craze is a stopgap measure, and a budgetary boon to the ag industry, not the rest of us. If we were really interested in alternate fuel there wouldn't be absurdly high tariffs on Brazilian ethanol made from sugarcane. The real breakthrough will be when we have commercially viable cellulosic ethanol--and butanol--production, and algal oil. Today's hybrids do not "fill the gap"; they get us thinking in the right direction, but they are more energy-intensive to make and use than current diesels. I once saw a paper that compared the total energy expenditure in the manufacture of the Prius vs the Hummer, and the Hummer is FAR more ecologically viable than the hybrid. How, you ask? With the Prius, the nickel for the batteries is first pit-mined in Ontario (in a region so polluted and poisoned by that mining that NASA used it to simulate moon landings during astronaut training!), then hauled by train to the West Coast, where it is shipped to China to be manufactured into batteries (and I'll bet THOSE factories are always hiring); the finishing process is done in Japan, after which the nearly-finished product is shipped back to China to finish the process. Then, of course, the new batteries are shipped across the ocean to Toyota's American factories to be put into the cars. When you consider all the BTUs expended for the process it's a wonder that the Prius is considered so "green". Well, actually it isn't, given that so many liberals believe that the image of a thing IS the thing, and that wishful thinking is equal to action. If we wanted to make a real difference instead of a perceived one there would be government incentives for purchasing clean diesels. But that ain't gonna happen.
here is the rebuttal for that, "myth" http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto...96.A12220.html Oh yea and I agree with you on the biofuels.

mightyspuds | 05-11-2008 03:22 AM
Re: water instead of gas Good luck on your experiment and be sure to update us.

StackerKen | 05-11-2008 01:31 PM
Re: water instead of gas Quote:
With the Prius, the nickel for the batteries is first pit-mined in Ontario (in a region so polluted and poisoned by that mining that NASA used it to simulate moon landings during astronaut training!),
And, How long do those Batterys last? What happens to them when they need to be disposed of?

TonyG | 05-11-2008 08:51 PM
Re: water instead of gas Quote:
Originally Posted by Olmstein (Post 1096039) Coast to Coast AM tonight, this is the topic.
Did anyone listen? What was Norry's take on it?

TonyG | 05-19-2008 04:11 PM
Re: water instead of gas Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyG (Post 1099259) Did anyone listen? What was Norry's take on it?
Guess not: My sound card isn't working, so I guess I can't listen to it.

TechGuy | 05-19-2008 04:31 PM
Re: water instead of gas Quote:
Originally Posted by traderken (Post 1097759) Pure oxygen is flammable....Liquid Oxygen is even more so... Wonder why someone can't use that to increase gas mileage?
They have, it is called NOS. Oxygen by itself is to explosive to use in the controlled burn of an ICE. The nitrous tempers the burn time to allow predictable burns of the oxygen. NOS has been used since WWII, where it was first used to give power boosts to fighter planes.

Fullpower | 05-19-2008 05:19 PM
Re: water instead of gas perhaps you refer to water injection? Nobody uses nitrous oxide in aircraft engines.

Unclad Lad | 05-20-2008 01:52 AM
Re: water instead of gas Quote:
And, How long do those Batterys last? What happens to them when they need to be disposed of?
Look at all the energy involved in recycling, vs pushing it off a pier. :wink:

Lackluster | 06-19-2008 06:14 AM
Re: water instead of gas Quote:
Originally Posted by mike77777 (Post 1096001) got the parts for my unit at true value today. the stainless steel shim stock and the stainless bolts were the most expensive. had to purchase a tap and drill bit also. started construction this afternoon, will give updates as work progresses. the plan is free on the web, the one i'm building looks like the simplest design possible, the plan publisher uses his hho generator in a v8 chev. unit is powered by 12 volts d.c., at approx 15 amperes, water is used in the generator with about a teaspoonful of red devil lye for a catalyst for the electrolysis of water into hho gas. claims to produce 1.7 liters/minute of gas, which is then piped into the intake manifold and burnred by the engine. have 52.00 dollars into it so far, will need relay,ammeter,wire and connectors to complete the installation. will be installed on the vw van, have a baseline 21 mpg after last weeks carb rebuild and 200 mile road trip.
So'd you do it?

shades2 | 06-19-2008 10:12 AM
Re: water instead of gas Quote:
Originally Posted by traderken (Post 1098834) And, How long do those Batterys last? What happens to them when they need to be disposed of?
6-8 years I think before the battery pack requires replacement. As long as nothing goes wrong with it in the mean-time... This is around an $8,000 process I think. A cost that will be borne by the purchaser. If you have ANY sense whatsoever you will sell your Prius or whatever after about 4 years to another willing sucker that doesn't understand the battery life. Toyota are right in regards to the Prius vs. Hummer thing. Over the life of the vehicle the Prius is certain to come out far ahead of the Hummer regarding emissions, wastage etc.

jaybone | 06-19-2008 10:21 AM
Re: water instead of gas I just finished and installed my first Smack's Booster. it worked great on the test bench, we will see how it works in the car. Still waiting for efie device. Without fooling the O2 sensors and computer, it will just inject more gas and negate the mileage increase. Lots of good info being kicked around at: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/

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Gold & Silver Forum - water instead of gas

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- Survival Prep (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=141)
- - water instead of gas (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=263428)

pusher | 06-19-2008 04:19 PM
Re: water instead of gas Here is a story from news channel 2 in Reno, may help to explain things . Local Business Burns Water to Run Vehicles Posted: April 8, 2008 05:13 PM Kellene Stockwell Channel 2 News With gas prices still increasing, people are coming up with creative ways to help you save money. In fact, one Reno mechanic shop has come up with a unique engine attachment that could save you 20%-45% on gas mileage. "I'm getting extended fuel mileage 'cause I'm burning water. It's so cool," says sales manager Casy O'Connell. O'Connell is burning water in his Cadillac Escalade. "It's rated for 12 miles in the city, now I'm getting 18.6 in city." He used to fill up every other day, now just once a week. "Your burning a hydrogen gas with your fuel tank by negatively charging the water." The mechanics at Donny's 4-Wheel Drive World say you're guaranteed fuel-efficiency. "Actually gives you more power, more gas mileage and is cleaner for our air." "Once we set up the canister, there's nothing else the customer needs to do other than fill it with water." Donny's owner Bill McAndrews says, "We all feel that were paying too much so we started tickering around ideas. As we put it on more vehicles we started learning more and the results we're great." They've already installed six attachments with each one costing $800. Donny's 4-Wheel Drive World is located at 3180 Mill Street in east Reno. Then ck out the video from the weatherman that built his own from plans on the internet. http://www.ktvn.com/Global/story.asp?s=8319888 http://www.ktvn.com/Global/story.asp?s=8444575

mike77777 | 06-19-2008 04:33 PM
Re: water instead of gas unit constructed, need to mount and hook up to volkswagen. payday tomorrow, getting my red devil lye, and about 5 more feet of 1/4 inch tubing to connect to intake manifold. results soon.

mboo42 | 06-19-2008 05:12 PM
Re: water instead of gas Can anything be done like this with diesel engines?

Rebel Yarr | 06-19-2008 05:29 PM
Re: water instead of gas I'm sold - contemplating a trip to CA to buy an abandoned SUV - then drive to Reno and get this slapped in...

pusher | 06-19-2008 05:34 PM
Re: water instead of gas Build your own for about $20.00, lots of plans are available for free, on you tube and elsewhere.

Unclad Lad | 06-19-2008 11:10 PM
Re: water instead of gas Quote:
The mechanics at Donny's 4-Wheel Drive World say you're guaranteed fuel-efficiency. "Actually gives you more power, more gas mileage and is cleaner for our air."
Does anyone have a copy of Donny's Guarantee? :rolleyes_m:

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