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CJay8 | 03-11-2010 07:35 AM
Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality This article is written by James Wesley Rawles and was originally published at Survival Blog. A recent opinion column The New York Times was titled: The Moral Ambiguity of Looting. Ambiguity? There is nothing ambiguous about it. Let�s have the moral courage to be forthright and uncompromising on this issue: Looting is the theft of property that lawfully belongs to another. There are no �ifs, ands, or buts�. Looting is unconscionable and cannot be tolerated in a civilized society. Once looting begins, it soon devolves into: �You have it, I want it, I�m taking it.� And once looting is sanctioned, then where is the dividing line on �acceptable� plunder? Do you draw the line at: Twinkies? Trinkets? Televisions? Teenage daughters? In essence, looting is pure, unmitigated anarchy in action. None of it is acceptable behavior. It is noteworthy that much of the looting that went on in Chile was not about parents keeping their kids from starving. Rather, it was more about people wanting television sets. Every reader of this blog needs to make a moral choice: Do you tolerate looting or not? I pray that you don�t. If you assent to theft, then don�t be surprised if you come home someday to find your own house looted. As a Christian Libertarian, I�m an advocate of minimalist government. But a society needs some basic laws enforced, or it ceases to be classified as a civilized society. Its clear that law and order being re-established in Chile. But things were dicey there for a few days, and it took more than the just police and army to put the societal trolley back on its tracks. I�m often asked about depopulation caused by pandemics�how that would be a time that would justify looting. That�s just speculative balderdash. Even in darkest days of The Black Death, when Europe and much of southern Asia lost half of its population, there were still �heirs and assigns.� (If you doubt that, then see William McNeil�s book �Plagues and Peoples�.) It would take a pandemic with a 90% lethality rate or more before that convention would become meaningless. So forget your �It�ll be just like Will Smith and his dog, in I Am Legend� fantasies. The chances of an event causing that level of depopulation, and the even smaller chance of you being one of the lucky few survivors are almost infinitesimal. In all other circumstances, there will be rightful owners or rightful heirs of every piece of land, every vehicle, every tool, every cow, and every larder on Earth. So discard any fanciful �foraging� musings that you might harbor. That�s nonsense. SurvivalBlog reader William C. recently e-mailed me some thought, in warning about those that are planning to loot, in the aftermath of a disaster. He wrote: �To appraise and to steal someone�s goods incorporates two dilemmas. One is the immoral practice of stealing and the other is the immoral practice of coveting another�s goods. Both are addressed in the [Old Testament] Commandments and should be developed notions in the mind of a moral thinking man.� He is correct in that appraisal. There are moral absolutes, and �Thou shalt not steal� is one of them. I also recently got an e-mail from Geoff in Utah, who mentioned: � I� find it disturbing the number of people that I�ve come across in my work on becoming self-reliant that feel entitled to what I and others have. For instance there is a Law enforcement officer in town that told me he didn�t need to keep a reserve of anything other than ammo because being an officer of the law he new who had what and he had more guns, ammo and training.� If your �survival plan� is to loot (or, as I�ve heard it euphemistically put, �forage�), rather than to store in advance what you will need, then that�s not much of a plan. By failing to store substantial quantities of food, you will very quickly force yourself into the role of Vandal or Visiting Visigoth, after the onset of a disaster. And, odds are, you�ll end up in a shallow grave somewhere. Consider this: The greatest threat we someday face might not be unprepared masses from the inner cities. No, it might be overweight armchair commandos from the suburbs, who�s only preparations were buying a set of camo fatigues and an AR-15. That is a nightmare just waiting to happen. If you have budgeted for guns but not food storage, then you are setting yourself up to have only one option, when things fall apart. Examine yourself, and your preparations. If you see that you lack balance in your preparations, then I pray that you re-set your priorities, immediately. Food storage should probably account for more than half of your family preparedness budget. If it doesn�t, then make it so!

Ruthless Defaulter | 03-11-2010 11:33 AM
Re: Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality Quote:
Originally Posted by CJay8 (Post 2221377) James Wesley Rawles
"I'm also a former U.S. Army intelligence officer...held a Top Secret security clearance (with Special Background Investigation). I was granted access to Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI)..." http://www.survivalblog.com/biographies.html Quote:
Originally Posted by CJay8 (Post 2221377) Looting is the theft of property that lawfully belongs to another. There are no �ifs, ands, or buts�. Looting is unconscionable and cannot be tolerated in a civilized society.
No, Mr. Rawles, looting is tolerated in your so-called "civilized" society...but only when the rich and others, like yourself, involved in the Military-Industrial Complex do it to the little people. Quote:
Originally Posted by CJay8 (Post 2221377) In essence, looting is pure, unmitigated anarchy in action. None of it is acceptable behavior.
Provided that looting involves only taking of necessities, it is not only acceptable, but desirable in the absence of organized relief efforts during a disaster. Desperate people with nothing get more desperate, and threaten the rest of us who have prepared more appropriately. Please - go get what you need from the Safeway, and leave us alone. Quote:
Originally Posted by CJay8 (Post 2221377) It is noteworthy that much of the looting that went on in Chile was not about parents keeping their kids from starving.
But most of it was. I saw photos of Chileans leaving grocery stores with sacks of food. I doubt most of the food shops down there sell TVs. Quote:
Originally Posted by CJay8 (Post 2221377) If you assent to theft, then don�t be surprised if you come home someday to find your own house looted.
If I cannot defend it, I expect it. If I am dead, I hope that my neighbors will take everything I had, so the government doesn't get it instead. Quote:
Originally Posted by CJay8 (Post 2221377) I�m often asked about depopulation caused by pandemics�how that would be a time that would justify looting. That�s just speculative balderdash. Even in darkest days of The Black Death, when Europe and much of southern Asia lost half of its population, there were still �heirs and assigns.�
You're a System boy, Mr. Rawles. Of course you want those "heirs and assigns" honored. How much is your hush money from your intelligence work? Quote:
Originally Posted by CJay8 (Post 2221377) In all other circumstances, there will be rightful owners or rightful heirs of every piece of land, every vehicle, every tool, every cow, and every larder on Earth.
...yup, those who can defend those things. Quote:
Originally Posted by CJay8 (Post 2221377) If your �survival plan� is to loot (or, as I�ve heard it euphemistically put, �forage�), rather than to store in advance what you will need, then that�s not much of a plan.
Obviously, that's not a "plan." But there are many surviving on minimum wage, and many who, despite means, swallow the lies of the corporate media that "everything's just fine." There will be no "moral dilemma" for either of those to simply take what is truly needed from a corporate facility. Quote:
Originally Posted by CJay8 (Post 2221377) Consider this: The greatest threat we someday face might not be unprepared masses from the inner cities. No, it might be overweight armchair commandos from the suburbs, who�s only preparations were buying a set of camo fatigues and an AR-15. That is a nightmare just waiting to happen.
And it's complete nonsense. I suspect Mr. Rawles continues to "consult" on security matters for the wealthy & powerful, and this "nightmare" is actually a distortion of the worry that these AR-15 owners will take revenge on them for their lifetimes of wrong to the working man.

CJay8 | 03-11-2010 01:24 PM
Re: Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality You're a funny guy RD. You crack me up.

Saul Mine | 03-11-2010 03:04 PM
Re: Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality There is looting, and then there is looting. If you are talking about stores then you are talking about punks stealing tvs and beer. If you are talking about personal property in somebody's home then the thieves are much more likely to be public officials. BTW there is one special situation: you have planned ahead and are driving your family to your bugout location. Avoid stopping for any reason except maybe to buy gas. There is a fair chance that pirates will steal your vehicle. Especially if you are not following main roads, which you should not be because they are likely to be jammed by frantic refugees who didn't plan ahead.

nickelless | 03-11-2010 04:05 PM
Re: Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthless Defaulter (Post 2221749) "I'm also a former U.S. Army intelligence officer...held a Top Secret security clearance (with Special Background Investigation). I was granted access to Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI)..." http://www.survivalblog.com/biographies.html No, Mr. Rawles, looting is tolerated in your so-called "civilized" society...but only when the rich and others, like yourself, involved in the Military-Industrial Complex do it to the little people. Provided that looting involves only taking of necessities, it is not only acceptable, but desirable in the absence of organized relief efforts during a disaster. Desperate people with nothing get more desperate, and threaten the rest of us who have prepared more appropriately. Please - go get what you need from the Safeway, and leave us alone. But most of it was. I saw photos of Chileans leaving grocery stores with sacks of food. I doubt most of the food shops down there sell TVs. If I cannot defend it, I expect it. If I am dead, I hope that my neighbors will take everything I had, so the government doesn't get it instead. You're a System boy, Mr. Rawles. Of course you want those "heirs and assigns" honored. How much is your hush money from your intelligence work? ...yup, those who can defend those things. Obviously, that's not a "plan." But there are many surviving on minimum wage, and many who, despite means, swallow the lies of the corporate media that "everything's just fine." There will be no "moral dilemma" for either of those to simply take what is truly needed from a corporate facility. And it's complete nonsense. I suspect Mr. Rawles continues to "consult" on security matters for the wealthy & powerful, and this "nightmare" is actually a distortion of the worry that these AR-15 owners will take revenge on them for their lifetimes of wrong to the working man.
Nice ad hominems there, buddy. Even if JWR IS in the pocket of the military-industrial complex--I'm not agreeing with you--does that negate the usefulness of what he writes? I'll take his articles over personal attacks against him any day. And last time I checked, stealing was morally wrong and could get you on the wrong end of a firearm muzzle.

Twisted Avatar | 03-11-2010 04:15 PM
Re: Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality Prepare now as best you can and mow down anybody who thinks they have the right to abscond your property T

nickelless | 03-11-2010 04:25 PM
Re: Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 2222231) Prepare now as best you can and mow down anybody who thinks they have the right to abscond your property T
Using diplomacy and persuasion first is good, but if those fail and the threat escalates...

gunDriller | 03-11-2010 05:11 PM
Re: Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthless Defaulter (Post 2221749) No, Mr. Rawles, looting is tolerated in your so-called "civilized" society...but only when the rich and others, like yourself, involved in the Military-Industrial Complex do it to the little people.
exactly ! it has become so clear that the US gov. is an ongoing criminal enterprise. why should we pay for their health care ? or their salaries ? why should poor & middle class people obey the 10 Commandments in their dealings with American corporations if those same corporations are criminal enterprises ?

Ruthless Defaulter | 03-11-2010 05:57 PM
Re: Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelless (Post 2222216) Nice ad hominems there, buddy.
Are you disputing what he wrote that I quoted about his "intelligence" work? One does not "leave" the "intelligence community" except horizontally. Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelless (Post 2222216) Even if JWR IS in the pocket of the military-industrial complex--I'm not agreeing with you--does that negate the usefulness of what he writes?
Yes, because it's not written for the common man. Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelless (Post 2222216) And last time I checked, stealing was morally wrong and could get you on the wrong end of a firearm muzzle.
Unless you're the Military-Industrial Complex.

CANUCKFARMER | 03-11-2010 06:03 PM
Re: Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality If i was starving to death i would never loot or hurt even if the odds of success where with me. If my children where starving i would take your heart out with a spoon for one meal for them.

nickelless | 03-11-2010 06:29 PM
Re: Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality Quote:
Originally Posted by CANUCKFARMER (Post 2222342) If i was starving to death i would never loot or hurt even if the odds of success where with me. If my children where starving i would take your heart out with a spoon for one meal for them.
Shouldn't you be prepping more to provide for yourself and your kids so you won't be inclined to murder someone for what they have? Are you going to loot the spoon first?

Ruthless Defaulter | 03-11-2010 10:17 PM
Re: Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelless (Post 2222375) Shouldn't you be prepping more to provide for yourself and your kids so you won't be inclined to murder someone for what they have? Are you going to loot the spoon first?
Some people fantasize that they can "prepare for anything." There is no such ability. No matter how well you prepare, no matter how diligent you are, unforeseen circumstances can intercede. For example, a fire could decimate your stockpile of supplies. The rule for everyone - including you - is "my family comes first."

nickelless | 03-11-2010 11:05 PM
Re: Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality Well, I guess the obvious next question is how many GIMmers would kill someone to steal something for themselves or their family? Seems like the next logical step, doesn't it? Doesn't anyone have a moral backbone left??

Ruthless Defaulter | 03-11-2010 11:33 PM
Re: Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelless (Post 2222813) Well, I guess the obvious next question is how many GIMmers would kill someone to steal something for themselves or their family? Seems like the next logical step, doesn't it?
Take what? Food? Potable water? Medicine? A world of difference from TVs and iPods. You would presume someone should die because the corporate pharmacy won't sell - at any price - an antibiotic? Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelless (Post 2222813) Doesn't anyone have a moral backbone left??
Those who refuse to protect and provide for their family have neither honor nor backbone.

nickelless | 03-11-2010 11:38 PM
Re: Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthless Defaulter (Post 2222835) Those who refuse to protect and provide for their family have neither honor nor backbone.
So who deserves to be plundered so we can provide for our families? The families who run the businesses who have the necessities we need? Or do we just pillage whatever shops are a part of Corporate America? For that matter, where does your family hide its food stash, in case my family gets hungry?

AMforPM | 03-12-2010 04:21 PM
Re: Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality I watched Katrina pretty closely. In that case the looted items were already 100% insurance writeoffs so nobody lost anything by the docs and nurses from one hospital breaking in to a closed pharmacy to keep their patients alive, for example. MSM showed a black person with a wedding dress over and over, but not the cops cleaning out wal mart, or the vast majority of the looting, which was food, clean liquids, and diapers. If pre arranged water and food had not been denied entry by FEMA, there would have been no need to loot. It was a set up to use martial law. That has been extremely well documented.

mightymanx | 03-12-2010 07:59 PM
Re: Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality Really: http://www.myspaceantics.com/images/...-beer-loot.jpg http://img.stern.de/_content/54/50/5...pl_500_500.jpg http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...mail_truck.jpg

Canadian-guerilla | 03-12-2010 08:24 PM
Re: Confronting Kleptocracy�Identifying The Looter Mentality my highlights Letter Re: Confronting Kleptocracy--Identifying the Looter Mentality March 12, 2010 1:30 AM Dear Mr. Rawles, I would like to make a few comments on your post titled �Confronting Kleptocracy � Identifying the Looter Mentality�. Although my education and profession are in medicine, I have been long interested in social anthropology particularly as it applies to the average �citizen� confronted with a breakdown in modern society. As you are well aware, our society exists by means of a fragile web of precisely balanced interconnected dependencies. This web was not created overnight but has developed over several generations. At present we enjoy life at a time where the poorest people in our modern culture live at a standard way beyond what the richest kings enjoyed only a hundred years ago. About a year ago I sat in a restaurant and heard a young lady (20-something) exclaim to her friend and the server, �Oh my God, this chicken has bones in it! That is so gross!� Quite obviously, this typical young lady has lived her entire life eating only boneless, skinless chicken breasts or chicken nuggets and is so removed from the source of her meal that being confronted with the reality of chicken, she was appalled. Today, a majority of our population has never experienced life without these comforts. They have no frame of reference to anything different. We set the thermostat for 74 degrees because 76 is a bit too warm and, well, 72 is just a little too cold. We also feel free to complain when it�s not right. I believe it is important to remember that as a reader of SurvivalBlog, you are not among the majority. If you are a regular reader then almost by definition you understand that your comfort, your safety, and your assets are earned and not deserved. If you are a reader than you understand and agree with the concepts of preparations that you make thereby earning your comfort. One thing we can ascribe to the "Golden Horde" leaving suburbia is they will have a sense of entitlement. Never before have there been as many people who believe they deserve more then what they have. This phenomenon is made clear by the average personal debt, and is well documented and written about in business literature since it reigns as one of the largest problems facing employers today. In short we have a large group of people with a willingness to deserve but without a willingness to earn. Last fall during a lecture I asked a group of medical residents what they would do if society collapsed. I used the example of an EMP with complete failure of the electrical grid and ensuing chaos. Keep in mind, these are very well educated and intelligent people; they are physicians in training. These people are expected by the population to have the highest ethical standards and morals. Their answers astounded me. In the early aftermath as a group these people said they would go to the store and get what they needed. When I reminded them there was no way to pay with a credit card they seemed to think that it would be okay anyway. Many of the women said they would resort to begging if things became difficult, but most of the males in the group said they would leave for the rural areas due to the availability of cattle and other farm animals. When I asked what they would then do, most responded that they would take �one or two.� It wasn�t until I mentioned that stealing cattle is also called �rustling� and men used to be hung for such acts that it even began to register they were in fact stealing. The notion had not even occurred to them. One of my residents took the discussion further saying, �It wouldn�t necessarily be considered stealing because of the national emergency.� When I assured him the farmer or rancher would definitely consider it stealing and would likely defend his property with a rifle, he answered, �He wouldn�t shoot me. I�m a doctor. Besides murder would be a worse crime than my stealing.� In general statistics apply only to populations and never to individuals. This is a critical fact to remember as we consider what might happen in a societal collapse. Personally, I hate the term �sheeple.� Although descriptive in the sense that we refer to the masses of suburbanites moving in the Golden Horde it does not describe the individual. �Sheeple� conjures images of an inept couch potato lumbering along the road with a bed sheet full of junk food over his shoulder with a fat wife and three whining kids in tow. In reality, the individual may very well be educated, physically fit, and have a history of military training. He might be young or old. He might be married with kids or single and alone. He may be well armed and have a great deal of experience using weapons; he might be a felon, or he might be a doctor. My fear is that the entitled attitude is not only common, but it is the prevailing mindset today. It will not even occur to these thousands of normally good and law-abiding people that taking your hard earned larder is wrong. �After all, it�s an emergency and my family and I are hungry.� Could it be that all looters are not bad? Perhaps some are just self-centered, entitled, and clueless. This describes half the current population and part of the reason we are in this economic mess. While I have no problem justifying the use of deadly force to defend one�s property and loved ones, (yes, I have a rifle and a shovel) it might be beneficial to stop for a second and consider that the looter just doesn�t get it. They are a product of a society that has taught them the wrong values and ideals for a generation and encouraged them to be self-centered. As I consider the possibilities in a post-TEOTWAWKI scenario, I can see where looting could fall into two distinct categories. The first group is the despicable where stealing is done for personal gain. They are anarchy in action, they destroy community, and spread destruction. For that group I would agree that �Rule .308� applies. But it�s this second group that gives me trouble. These are the folks that just don�t have a clue. They steal to survive and to protect their loved ones. If I was in their situation I don�t know what I would do, but I do know that I would not sit idly by watching my family starve. I believe these will be the majority and I have to think that education and a little charity could go a long way. Regards, - Dr. Dean http://www.survivalblog.com/2010/03/...leptocr_1.html

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