Page 1 of 2 | 1 | 2 | >
Show 30 post(s) from this thread on one page

Gold & Silver Forum (http://goldismoney.info/forums/index.php)
- Survival Prep (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=141)
- - Wood stove cautionary tale. (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=316532)

Maxine | 10-27-2008 10:47 AM
Wood stove cautionary tale. I posted about this on Duck's 'Russian Stove' thread, but by now I think this needs a new thread so others who are planning to install wood stoves are aware of this. This summer I sent for a wood cookstove. After much debate as to what type and where to put it - and the chimney - I decided to have the stove pipe through the outside wall and to have a brick chimney built with a stainless steel liner. There has already been an enormous amount of hassle in terms of well over the top clearances for this stove, and this and that having to be tiled to meet Canadian insurance code. Now for the fiasco. A WETT (Wood Engineering Technology Trained) certified mason - ie insurance company approved - came and made a lovely job of the brick chimney. The problem came with the stainless liner. My elderly farmer neighbour came and said 'You have a problem you are not going to be able to sweep that liner, as it is, from the ground.' He was very irate that the mason had done things the way he had done and showed me how his stove, put in 20 years or more ago, was installed. My neighbour is completely correct. It is impossible to get a brush into the round hole that is supplied on the bottom of the pipe. It is pretty close to 3 stories up to sweep from the top, when the attic is taken into account. I tackled the mason about what my neighbour had said. He was very apologetic but said "I am well aware of what your neighbour is saying, but when he had his stove put in the code was different. Now I have no choice but to install to the current code, otherwise I could be held liable and lose my certification.' He is an older man and I felt a very nice, honest man. My neighbour and I had spoken to several masons and asked around before we picked him for the job. The mason said 'If you want to sweep it from the ground you will have to do this and do that to modify it.' Already bad enough. A brand new installation I have to modify just to make it comply with common sense. I was also well aware that the modifications likely as not invalidate my house insurance. My neighbour this morning called a local guy who does sheet metal work. An old guy. He made the liner for my neighbour's chimney and also USED to make custom liners for the mason who put up the chimney before 'code' demanded that he had to use rubber stamped, one size fit all, impractical rubbish off the shelf. My neighbour asked the sheet metal guy if he could come and sort out this bloody liner, and if possible modify it so it can be swept from the ground. He said he daren't that now the bloody thing has been installed to 'code' he cannot come messing about with it. Though he agrees it is complete nonsense. He also knows the mason and is aware of the stupidity of the rules and regs. With hind sight - the way to have gone was to have had the mason build ONLY the brick chimney and to have seen to the stainless liner privately, not to code. That STILL would have invalidated my house insurance, but at least the installation would have been practical. A nightmare.:favorites21::censored:

RJB | 10-27-2008 10:51 AM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. So is this a mason conspiracy?bancha On the serious side, thanks for the heads up.

Maxine | 10-27-2008 10:56 AM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. Quote:
Originally Posted by RJB (Post 1380970) So is this a mason conspiracy?bancha On the serious side, thanks for the heads up.
Thanks for the laugh! I needed that right now, I am having a major sense of humour failure over this at the second.:15_1_70v:

Darkside | 10-27-2008 01:14 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. As I read your story I can't help but think: "Wow, you have neighbors that are friendly and come over and provide advice... without leaving you an invoice for their time ?!" ... or ... "Wow, your town has people that actually... know eachother?" I need to get out of this suburban hell hole

gasilat | 10-27-2008 01:39 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. i'm curious as to which wood cookstove you settled on ? i've been researching them the last few days and i like the Heartland Sweetheart model 2602, but really i don't think we need the warming ovens on top that come with it... i showed my wife some photos of totally refurbished 100 year old Glenwood cookstoves that just have a warming plate on top (instead of the ovens) and we think we like that because of where we will position the stove in our house... anyway i'm still in the thinking mode of what to buy... there are some interesting deals on ebay for old wood cookstoves but everybody lists them as pick up only delivery and that doesn't work for me...

Maxine | 10-27-2008 02:01 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkside (Post 1381285) As I read your story I can't help but think: "Wow, you have neighbors that are friendly and come over and provide advice... without leaving you an invoice for their time ?!" ... or ... "Wow, your town has people that actually... know eachother?" I need to get out of this suburban hell hole
Yes I am deeply grateful for my neighbour. He can at times be a real trial to me. He drops in whenever he likes, he is a lonely old chap. But he has a deep store of 'country wisdom', and apart from that I do really like him. Yes I appreciate the value of a good neighbour. I was nearly in tears over this wood stove pantomime on Saturday. He just hugged me, and there is no pretence with this man that he is interested in (ha, ha!) 'younger women', as I hear all about his angst in trying to meet a suitable lady of his own age. He has told me with great frankness that I am 'too young' and my hair is the wrong colour.:biggrin: But, to hell with that, as My Lord have I got one good neighbour. I will do my best to watch his back too. I can at least cook better than him, and offer him hot meals, I have tired to warn him about the markets.

Maxine | 10-27-2008 02:21 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. Quote:
Originally Posted by gasilat (Post 1381320) i'm curious as to which wood cookstove you settled on ? i've been researching them the last few days and i like the Heartland Sweetheart model 2602, but really i don't think we need the warming ovens on top that come with it... i showed my wife some photos of totally refurbished 100 year old Glenwood cookstoves that just have a warming plate on top (instead of the ovens) and we think we like that because of where we will position the stove in our house... anyway i'm still in the thinking mode of what to buy... there are some interesting deals on ebay for old wood cookstoves but everybody lists them as pick up only delivery and that doesn't work for me...
I bought an Esse Ironheart and imported it from the UK. It is on Duck's Russian Stove thread. A link to a photo and details on it. It was not cheap, but the installation of many of the other domestic ones would have set me up for more expense than importing this one. Without major renovations I could not fit any of the US/Canadian made spec wood cook stoves. The Ironheart is small for a wood cookstove. Two top rings and a small oven. Yet unlike MOST cookstoves, which are designed to keep heat in to cook, it is designed to also work as a space heater. It is really the sort of stove you would put in at a hunting/fishing camp. I still like my stove choice, I just despair in my chimney. Making a decision over these cook stoves is a far more complex matter than you might think when you first look at the brochures. I could have a water jacket on this stove too. Again too hard to comply with 'code'. The Duck had a point on his thread. Cancel the insurance, get your own fire fighting gear. But that is quite a task.

Weho Dave | 10-27-2008 02:58 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. I learned that cleaning the chimney is very important after two chimney fires. Scariest thing I have been through as I pondered what of my items is the most important to get out of the house during a fire. Luckily I had installed my own metal liner in a 120 year old brick chimney for about $400 and no damage was done. Wood was the only heat we had in this old house for the first year and had the first chimney fire around March. So I got the oil boiler fixed and hooked it up to the liner for the second year when oil was only $1.99 a gallon. For the third year, I installed another metal liner, this time with an insulation wrap and we had a chimney fire around February. My problem was not cleaning the chimney. I guess it costs around $100 a shot and should be done every month or two. I tried to do it myself once, but could not even get up on the roof because a thick layer of ice made it too slippery. I should not have been so cheap and just paid a professional to clean it. But I am one of those do-it-your-selfers and hate to spend the money. But whatever it costs, it is cheaper than building a new house and cheaper than a hospital bill for a broken neck (or worse).

Maxine | 10-27-2008 03:36 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. Quote:
Originally Posted by Weho Dave (Post 1381447) I learned that cleaning the chimney is very important after two chimney fires. Scariest thing I have been through as I pondered what of my items is the most important to get out of the house during a fire. Luckily I had installed my own metal liner in a 120 year old brick chimney for about $400 and no damage was done. Wood was the only heat we had in this old house for the first year and had the first chimney fire around March. So I got the oil boiler fixed and hooked it up to the liner for the second year when oil was only $1.99 a gallon. For the third year, I installed another metal liner, this time with an insulation wrap and we had a chimney fire around February. My problem was not cleaning the chimney. I guess it costs around $100 a shot and should be done every month or two. I tried to do it myself once, but could not even get up on the roof because a thick layer of ice made it too slippery. I should not have been so cheap and just paid a professional to clean it. But I am one of those do-it-your-selfers and hate to spend the money. But whatever it costs, it is cheaper than building a new house and cheaper than a hospital bill for a broken neck (or worse).
My old neighbour has impressed upon me how important it should be to sweep you stove pipe liner at least each two months, and your indoor connecting stove pipes each month. It does cost around $100 a time. I have my combination wood/oil furnace chimney swept at that cost. It needs large brushes and is quiet complex, but can STILL be swept from the ground. But THIS new one should have been a if TSHTF installation, that could be swept, from the ground by me or my neighbour. It is unpleasant, but not difficult. Or would not be difficult if we could get a brush in there. Chimneys should be able to be swept from the GROUND. I had a coal burning horror in Yorkshire, that ran a back boiler, my only heat source, and made filth galore, but even THAT could be swept from the ground. Coal, by the way, filthy as it is, is far less dangerous than wood in terms of coating a chimney in flammable particles. The wetter/younger your wood the worse it gets. A six inch stainless stove pipe should be a simple, if messy, self sweeping thing. I saw that at my neighbour's house, by looking at his installation. This really is pure madness that 'code' insists on a installation that disallows sweeping from below.

Raven Dancer | 10-27-2008 03:37 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. Make sure you use only seasoned wood in any woodstove. Wood that has not air dried (after being split and stacked)for about a year will result in a build up of kreosote more rapidly than in properly aged wood. Using "green" wood is one of the main causes of chimney fires. also in between chimney cleanings, you can purchase firelogs at most hardware stores that when burnt in your stove, help to get rid of buildup in the chimney. Never burn mounds of cardboard or other fastburning materials as the heat can be very intense and may start a chimney fire if you have a kreosote buildup. You guys probably know all this, but I just thought I'd post it anyway.

Maxine | 10-27-2008 03:47 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. PS Both here and in Yorkshire I have skimped on the $100 a shot cleaning's and I have had chimney fires in both places. Cleans them out darn well! But in this new made to market stainless liner? I doubt it. I bet the bloody thing would melt/distort. Throw large quantities of salt/and or stick a fire extinguisher up the chimney, by the way, in the event. And shut down, put out, any fire/appliance that is encouraging a draw.

brewer | 10-27-2008 05:27 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. Max, sounds like you've become a real expert on woodstove chimney safety and PITA/Racket codes. I understand you've got a 30'+ masonry chimney w/ a SS pipe liner? and you've an ol'timer that can fix the cleanout problem,but is weary of "codes". Can you get explicit instructions from the ol'timer and DIYS? Just how often do these woodstove nazis show up to inspect? and why? Good luck

SLV>GLD | 10-27-2008 05:30 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer (Post 1381739) Just how often do these woodstove nazis show up to inspect? and why? Good luck
Depending on where you are inspections may be required as part of the permitting process. Also, in the event an insurance claim was made you can bet any divergence from code would be used as excuse not to pay (and possibly for good reason).

Maxine | 10-27-2008 05:49 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer (Post 1381739) Max, sounds like you've become a real expert on woodstove chimney safety and PITA/Racket codes. I understand you've got a 30'+ masonry chimney w/ a SS pipe liner? and you've an ol'timer that can fix the cleanout problem,but is weary of "codes". Can you get explicit instructions from the ol'timer and DIYS? Just how often do these woodstove nazis show up to inspect? and why? Good luck
Cheers brewer, But I have become an expert after the fact. I lived in Yorkshire with really crazy 'pre code' coal burning stuff. Which I now see for what it was in insurance terms. 'Grandfathered' they call it in the US and Canada. I left it in place, it was hard work, and my house never got too warm, no chance of getting it over 65 F ever, at a push, less if it was really cold. But I could NEVER have frozen to death or been without hot water either via what I had. More than you could say for most of my village, which had once suffered such a major snow in that the Army had to drop supplies by air to it. Including coal at the time. I could run all my stuff without power if I had to. Though it worked better with an electric pump on, it was not dangerous without it. I got to value the old stuff. This house is far older than the house I had in Yorkshire. It is one of the oldest houses in Nova Scotia. By quite a long way. It is a shock to me, what is involved in terms of putting it back to being what it once was - practical. And a sin what people walled up and sealed off over the years in here. I used to have both a well and a bake oven in my cellar. I also see all my UK friends with AGA's and stuff through the same lens. EG that they had this stuff in before the rules went insane.

brewer | 10-27-2008 06:11 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. Good point SLV..damn!! "they" always have an angle to get to us. I built my masonry woodstove some 10+ years ago with safety in mind every step of the way. This came from years of woodstove use in some of the most precarious/weird living situations possisble....and yes, I did see neighbor's homes burn down because of dumbass attacks. I have a lot of respect for fire. Well considering SLV's input I quess you may have to factor in claen out cost with your yearly heating cost or get an extension ladder and some chimney brushes. Good luck

AgAuGal | 10-27-2008 06:45 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. Sorry to hear of the aggravation Maxine. On a lighter note my first thought was there must be a chimney sweep lobby up there that had the rules such that only they can do the cleaning. Can't have home owners being independent. Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxine (Post 1381524) My old neighbour has impressed upon me how important it should be to sweep you stove pipe liner at least each two months, and your indoor connecting stove pipes each month. It does cost around $100 a time. I have my combination wood/oil furnace chimney swept at that cost. It needs large brushes and is quiet complex, but can STILL be swept from the ground. But THIS new one should have been a if TSHTF installation, that could be swept, from the ground by me or my neighbour. It is unpleasant, but not difficult. Or would not be difficult if we could get a brush in there. Chimneys should be able to be swept from the GROUND. I had a coal burning horror in Yorkshire, that ran a back boiler, my only heat source, and made filth galore, but even THAT could be swept from the ground. Coal, by the way, filthy as it is, is far less dangerous than wood in terms of coating a chimney in flammable particles. The wetter/younger your wood the worse it gets. A six inch stainless stove pipe should be a simple, if messy, self sweeping thing. I saw that at my neighbour's house, by looking at his installation. This really is pure madness that 'code' insists on a installation that disallows sweeping from below.

gasilat | 10-27-2008 06:55 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. i took a peek and that esse is a nice looking little stove... when i was reading about it on the website for just a second there i thought i could smell cinnamon rolls baking in that oven... :) congrats !

mick silver | 10-27-2008 09:19 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. here a good link for cook stoves http://www.kitchenqueenstoves.com/ki...ves/index.html

Tecumseh | 10-27-2008 09:28 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. My sweep annoyed me when he came this summer. He noted on his inspection report that my wood stove is not listed as compatible with my manufactured insert and was therefore (in his professional opinion) a potential hazard. I did not ask him to issue an opinion - I only engaged him to sweep the chimney. Second, after speaking with both manufacturers (Regency stoves and Vermont Castings fireplace inserts) the only reason they are not listed is because neither company is willing to bear the expense (and liability) to cross test each others products for a UL rating. This does not mean that they are incompatible or a potential hazard - it simply means they have not been tested together to receive a UL rating. I suppose if I ever have a chimney fire that my insurance company could subpoena his report - I doubt that will happen but I still think he didn't have factual grounds to write that it was a potential hazard. He could have disclaimed that it was UL listed but he really had no grounds for "potential hazard". I like him, he does good work but he probably has lost my business.

Ash_Williams | 10-27-2008 09:31 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. About how well do those chimney sweeping logs work? What do you do, just burn one on it's own? What kind of results do you see? (For example, do you see crap from the chimney fall back down into your stove?)

mick silver | 10-27-2008 09:34 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. THEY DO NOT work

mtnman | 10-27-2008 10:15 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. I'm over 50 and I have been burning wood all my life. I've never swept a chimney or had a chimney fire go out of control. Always burn dry wood, never burn pine and burn a HOT fire at least once a week. Replace the stove pipes every few years. And I almost forgot the most important thing, NEVER live where they have ZONING!!!

Lackluster | 10-28-2008 07:13 AM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash_Williams (Post 1382222) About how well do those chimney sweeping logs work? What do you do, just burn one on it's own? What kind of results do you see? (For example, do you see crap from the chimney fall back down into your stove?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mick silver (Post 1382229) THEY DO NOT work
Mick, what makes you say that? I am curious about them as well. I am installing a wood/coal hot air furnace, and intend to burn wood. An old timer I know says to burn a coal fire in the furnace every so often, that it'll help with creosote buildup. Kinda turn it to ash or something. Anyone else hear anything like this? I am tempted to go get a few bags of coal to have on hand for this reason.

Ash_Williams | 10-28-2008 07:29 AM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. Quote:
THEY DO NOT work
Fair enough.

Tecumseh | 10-28-2008 09:21 AM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. Mtn Man makes a good point. I installed my stove 3 years ago - prior to that it was an open fireplace. I typically burn 3 cords each year so I have always had my chimmney swept annually. Ever since I installed the wood stove the chimney is noticeably cleaner to the point that I don't think an annual sweep is necessary. If the stove is working properly it gets hot enough that it burns the exhaust - you can actually see the smoke burning as it rises to the chimmney. When my stove is running hot almost nothing comes out of the top of the chimney. My stove is non-catalytic but it is designed to circulate the exhaust so that it gets super heated and burns on exit. If you operate your stove properly I don't think you need to worry about those sweeping logs. I don't think that I have ever had creosote build up in my chimney - just light ash. I wouldn't rely on those sweep logs.

Maxine | 10-28-2008 10:29 AM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. [QUOTE=gasilat;1381913]i took a peek and that esse is a nice looking little stove... when i was reading about it on the website for just a second there i thought i could smell cinnamon rolls baking in that oven... :) congrats ![/QUOTE Glad you like it gasilat. It is not a bad sized little oven. I must say that I feel a lot more comfortable to no longer be completely dependent on the grid for heat and the ability to cook/boil a kettle. Since the power company in Nova Scotia was privatized the maintenance has gone right down hill.

Maxine | 10-28-2008 10:35 AM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. Thanks for all the responses everyone. I guess the only thing for it is to use it as it is over the winter and see how it goes.

GOLD DUCK | 10-30-2008 08:41 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. QWAK,Max,Been BUSEY geting all the stuff together to instal the new wood burning boiler,got a great old pressure tank scraped and painted it and mounted it in the wall above the boiler. The tank circulates cool water to the boiler by convection and has a safty valve on top just like all water heaters do. Got in all my heavy duty stove pipe and just waiting on the HEAT RECLAMER to come in so I can fit all the pieces together and drill and screw all the joints. Today the BLUE BIRD of HAPPYNESS came to visit!:yes::s1: Just about every year about this time a "BLUE BIRD of HAPPYNESS" comes to visit ---- but usualy gets "SMOKED" or "ROSTED":hahaha::grin: It seems that them blue birds aint very SMART and even thow the stove pipe has a rain shield the blue birds fly under, aparently to get warm from the air drafted up the chimney and the fall down the 6" stove pipe.:15_1_70v::4_1_72: IF I notice them I have tried pulling the stove pipe apart but most often I just find the bodies. :hahaha::signs14: Happy BLUE BIRDS to the end ,but STUPID as a sack full of HAMMERS!:4_1_72::111: I opened two big doors to let this one fly out --- it still flew in to a window and about broke its neck befor noticing the open door!:hahaha::thinkey: Perhaps there is a life lessone in there some ware?:questionm:questionm To be totaly HAPPY one must also be TOTALY STUPID :wink: Every body else just got to DEAL with REALITY!:15_1_70v::yes: I guess that is part of why I am a DUCK and NOT a BLUE BIRD of HAPPYNESS and I put together STOVE pipes and not get STUCK in them!:4_1_72::4_1_72::shine: Going to put some 1/2" mesh screen around the NEW stove pipe and save more HAPPY BLUE BIRDS in the FUTURE!:shine: The world can always use a fiew more HAPPY BLUE BIRDS -- even if they are STUPID!:wink::yes::s11::shine: Hope I gave you a SMILE! :23_1_22: the DUCK

Maxine | 10-31-2008 11:14 AM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. Hi Duck, I am glad to hear things are progressing. Poor old blue birds! They do not sound too bright! Thanks for the :23_1_22: ,needed at the moment!:coolbeer::coolbeer:

GOLD DUCK | 10-31-2008 01:32 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. QWAK,Max,Yesterday it was the BLUE BIRD of HAPPYNESS and today it was "HOLLY ROLLERS" :15_1_70v::yes::shine::s1: I was just stacking two ricks of fire wood and up one of my drive ways comes a great big shiney red truck (crew cab) and out pops two guys dressed in there SUNDAY BEST and me waring tore up boots,pants and work shirt looking like a poverty stricken share croper.:wink: They introduced them selves as from the CHURCH of LATTER DAY SAINTS and asked if I wanted to be SAVED and IF I loved GOD! :cry1::111::shine: You Tube
You Tube
Needless to say I went in to my "ALL is ONE" and "ALL is GOD" explination with various virbal demonstrations of simple LOGIC and the fact that ALL churches and preachers just get in the way of the TRUTH that GOD is WHO they ARE and that ALL any one need do is RECOGNISE that FACT and LIVE that way and ALL the BAD stuff would DISIPATE! That there church and all churches are REALY just another form of GOVERNMENT that wants to RESTRICT there FREE WILL and FREE CHOICE which IS there LINK to GOD so in reality, unknowingly, THEY are working AGENST there suposed PURPOSE!:4_1_72::111::s1::shine: After about 10 min. with there HEADS spining because my logic IS HARD TO ARGUE with or dispute so they got in there big red truck and drove down the other drive way, either thinking they just had met "GOD" or a CRAZY lunitick who was going to HELL for SHURE!:hahaha::thinkey::evil: IF St.Peater shows up tomarrow I won't be too suprised:wink: and I will be shure to let you know!:15_1_70v::grin::111::4_1_72::36_3_13: LOVE ALL -- because "ALL is GOD" :shine: (don't have to like ALL -- but got to LOVE ALL):s1: the DUCK

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:04 AM. |
Page 1 of 2 | 1 | 2 | >
Show 30 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright = None use it and Link to GIM

Gold & Silver Forum - Wood stove cautionary tale.

Page 2 of 2 | < | 1 | 2
Show 30 post(s) from this thread on one page

Gold & Silver Forum (http://goldismoney.info/forums/index.php)
- Survival Prep (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=141)
- - Wood stove cautionary tale. (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=316532)

SLV>GLD | 10-31-2008 01:56 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. Quote:
Originally Posted by GOLD DUCK (Post 1389352) (don't have to like ALL -- but got to LOVE ALL)
Ding ding ding. The dirty irony is sometimes the best love for some is a .38 to the head, though. Kidding... mostly... my humor has a cruel bent today, must be the Halloween coming out. Really, though, I feel that your statement is a profound truth to reconciling life.

Maxine | 11-01-2008 03:06 PM
Re: Wood stove cautionary tale. Ha, ha, ha, Duck, re the 'Holy Rollers'. Don't suppose they will be back to bother you in a while!:biggrin: A friend of mine once answered the door to the Jehovah's Witnesses with a lamp shade on her head and said 'You light up my life' to them. They did not stick around. I dare say they see it all. I tried to look up your suicidal Bluebirds in my bird book, sounds as they could be 'Mountain Blue Birds'. Nice to talk to your yesterday. Flap, Max

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:04 AM. |
Page 2 of 2 | < | 1 | 2
Show 30 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright = None use it and Link to GIM