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Bomber | 10-25-2006 09:58 AM
Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Suppose I could only have 1 rifle and needed it for both hunting and defending myself, what would it be? Probably would need to be used for hunting deer or similar sized animals. I have an AK, and it is a Norinco NHM 91 that is supposedly a good "sporting" AK, but I'm not sure what would be a better option. I have been looking at AR's , but the cost is extremely high, and I'm not sure how reliable they are compared to AK's. Maybe I'd be looking for something more accurate at longer distances than an AK, or maybe that's not necessary. What are your thoughts?

Anty Ep | 10-25-2006 10:06 AM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? AR is best just because it's a good rifle and parts and expertise are in ample supply 308 is better, if I had to grab and go with one rifle it would be the springfield m1A which is like a m-14 semi only. if I could grab and go with one rifle NOT in my possession, it would be the Steyr Scout in 308 but ca coute trop cher pour moi

buff01 | 10-25-2006 10:27 AM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? I'll agree with anti_ep.. the .308 seems to be the best cartridge for your needs.

TomD | 10-25-2006 10:34 AM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Beat me to it, M1A, without a doubt. The 308 cartridge is available everywhere and has plenty of punch. The M1A rifle is based on the famous M1 Garand rifle of WWII, it is extremely reliable, and can be made to be very accurate. 20 round magazines are available.

cb&julie | 10-25-2006 11:03 AM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? It's very debateable!!! Something that can kill up to larger medium sized game and get a human head shot up to 800 yards. A .308 or .270 can do all that. Get one with good magazine capacity and a nice scope. Practice, practice, practice and pray that you never need to use it.

RickW | 10-25-2006 11:07 AM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? I still like a pre-64 winchester model 70 in the 30-06 caliber. I have my grandfathers pre war and have dropped more game with that than any other rifle that I own

Bomber | 10-25-2006 11:17 AM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? M1A's and AR's seem to be in the same price range for the most part, so it seems an M1A is probably the better choice for the money?

eat_beef | 10-25-2006 11:26 AM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Here we go again!!! For defense you want a semi auto, not a bolt turner, with a high mag capacity. Military arms are better because they are overbuilt and designed to handle the adverse stresses of high volume shooting. I picked the M1A because it sports the 7.62x51 (308) cartridge, it's accurate and reliable. Plus I always wanted one because they are really KEWL. The AR15 chambers a 5.56 (223) round that is great for varmints, :aetsch: and the AR platform has less than stellar reliability. Hard to beat an AK for any use out to 100 yards, but I'm not a fan of cheap commy iron. The 7.62x39 is a good intermediate cartridge, but, I like the 7.62x51 because it fills all the bills. I don't want to be laying in 2 or 3 or 17 calibers, so I picked a round that can cover all of the bases, from CQB to LR/sniper. Need to make a 1000 yard shot? (I could maybe hit an elephant at that range) It's up to it. Need to knock the stuffings out of something? It's up to it. Need to make a car/truck look like swiss cheese? It's up to it. Need a cheap milsurp caliber? It's there. (Sorry, I love the 270, it was my first rifle, but 50 cents per round is as cheap as you'll find, and then it's not made for reliable feeding/loading in a semi. 7.62 is less than half the price (about 20 cents per) and made specifically for my intended use, sealed primer and all.)

eat_beef | 10-25-2006 11:30 AM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? I think the M14 is a better bang for the buck, but it is more expensive. Prolly 20% more. If you're interested in one, dig around here: www.m-14forum.com

Halophyte | 10-25-2006 12:59 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? I'll be eating small game while you guys disintergrate it with those big rifles ... Most small game is taken under 50 yards ... most close combat is under 25 yards .... think about that. .

RickW | 10-25-2006 01:41 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? A really good pellet gun is also good to have. Also I like a 22 rifle that chambers all 3 sizes of 22 ammo. I love CCI Mini caps as they are so quiet

buff01 | 10-25-2006 01:42 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Quote:
Originally Posted by gasilat (Post 397182) A bolt action 30.06 can tip over any big game animal in North America. The ammo is common and can be found in any backwoods village. In conjunction with carrying a .22 caliber pistol you can drop any critter in the woods, and you can carry both weapons at the same time handily while hunting. If a person thinks they need a semi-auto with thousands of rounds of ammo they probably need to consider moving to a safer location when the time is right rather than making an Al-Pacino-Scarface-type-last-stand. Mine is just another worthless opinion on the internet...but there it is.
He did say "best rifle for hunting AND defense". A 30-06 bolt action just doesn't fit that bill.

sam | 10-25-2006 01:56 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Well, I was intending to refrain from commenting, but here I am. :rolleyes: I have a .243 Ruger bolt action. It shoots straighter than I can. Flat trajectory. Anything more powerful kicks too hard for me.

eat_beef | 10-25-2006 03:00 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Quote:
Originally Posted by Halophyte (Post 397166) I'll be eating small game while you guys disintergrate it with those big rifles ... Most small game is taken under 50 yards ... most close combat is under 25 yards .... think about that. .
Umm, did you read the question? Perhaps a 223 will leave enough of a squirrel for a meal? Or maybe your 22lr will provide consistent one shot stops on a man? And what is the point about small game at 50 yards or cqb at 25? I don't recall him asking about small game, and furthermore, if I must defend myself @ 25 yards my first choice is a shotgun. The question was about a rifle which could fill both hunting and SD. Gasilat, I hope I never need to use a rifle in anger, but should the unfortunate event arise (I live in the sticks, well out of the likely paths of zombie hoards), I would prefer to be prepared. You can minimize your chances of being attacked, but you cannot eliminate them. I shoot a bolt gun very well (I happen to love them), but I would prefer any accurate, reliable, full powered autoloader with 20 (or even 10) rounds to any bolt gun (with it's 3-5 round magazine) should I ever be forced to engage multiple threats.

Anty Ep | 10-25-2006 03:17 PM
"reach out and touch someone" let's get one thing in focus. a rifle is an offensive weapon, by contrast a handgun a defensive one. I know that's hard for antis and noobs to wrap their head around but jes think on it a lil and you'll benefit from this new perspective. what we say about guns is necessarily circumspect should we have the unhappy occasion to use them. in that event you will be hoping nobody gets ahold of any sort of intemperate comments made ahead of time on the internet. a good writer to read on the legal aspects of self defense is Mas Ayoob who has testified quite a bit as an expert witness.

Bomber | 10-25-2006 03:26 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Reason for me asking about just one gun, I live in an apartment and have very limited storage and privacy. I don't yet have a place to store several types of guns. So I'm trying to make the most with what room I have. My walls are stacked with food and survival equipment. It's unfortunate, but I'm 23 years old and have not yet had an opportunity to buy a house.

eat_beef | 10-25-2006 03:46 PM
Re: "reach out and touch someone" [quote=Anty Ep;397291]let's get one thing in focus. a rifle is an offensive weapon, by contrast a handgun a defensive one.quote] HORSEHOCKEY!!! The whole defense/offense thing is defined by the weapon's use, not it's length. You sound like one of those guns kill people sheep.

Abouthadit | 10-25-2006 03:48 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Visualizing your environs, I'd say consider a shotgun. You can get a Remington 870 knockoff for home defense fairly cheaply. Add a spare barrel or two for small game (28in with choke tubes) and large game (rifled bore) and wing shooting (change choke tube). With the Aguilia 1.75" shortys you can stuff about 9 of those puppies, with buckshot or slug, into an extended magazine. If the receiver is tapped and threaded then you can mount a red dot scope or other optics. Cool. :coolbeer:

Worldmariner | 10-25-2006 03:53 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Quote:
Originally Posted by Halophyte (Post 397166) I'll be eating small game while you guys disintergrate it with those big rifles ... Most small game is taken under 50 yards ... most close combat is under 25 yards .... think about that. .
Well, depends on where you want to be versatile. If you are a above average marksman, then you could do with some form of .223, and keep a magazine of green tip armourpiercing ammo with yaz to punch through punch-resistant things. The beauty of this small round is lightness AND most law enforcement and military uses it so it is plentiful anywhere .308 or 30.06 can be found.

Worldmariner | 10-25-2006 03:55 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber (Post 397297) Reason for me asking about just one gun, I live in an apartment and have very limited storage and privacy. I don't yet have a place to store several types of guns. So I'm trying to make the most with what room I have. My walls are stacked with food and survival equipment. It's unfortunate, but I'm 23 years old and have not yet had an opportunity to buy a house.
A shotgun can be had VERY inex[pensively used at almost any gun shop. The MOssberg 500 and Rem 870 are probably your best bets as parts are plentiful and a monkey can strip and repair them.

buff01 | 10-25-2006 04:01 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Since you've stated you live in an apartment, I'll change my tune and say that a home defense shotgun would be your best bet. I just bought a Mossberg 500 (8 shell capacity) at Big5 sporting goods for ~$220 new, so they're cheap too!

Wyldwil | 10-25-2006 04:04 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? .50 BEOWULF:wink:

Worldmariner | 10-25-2006 04:10 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 397360) Which is all good, 'cause you're gonna be needin' every last part and bit of expertise available to keep an AR-15 in service, and that still may not be enough, and if "good rifle" means 'sexy'.
Well, yes, quite a few parts. FOr .223 maybe Ruger Mini14 would be a good choice. Good accuracy, not too long, many parts available, easy to repair.

Anty Ep | 10-25-2006 04:12 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 397360) ....that still may not be enough, .......
I put around three cases through mine which is a parts gun assembled by a pretty good smith on a bushmaster receiver and I have no broken anything. so I dont think that necessarily the case. it handles fast, feeds reliably with good mags and ammo, allows wonderful practical accurracy with iron sights out to 500. my only complaint is that it's a 22. I still like the m-14/m1a better though.

Worldmariner | 10-25-2006 04:19 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 397365) Indeed that is true, but expect to spend lots of time, effort, and hundreds of dollar$ to get there. And if you don't handload your own ammo, all that time, money, and effort accurizing the rifle is a waste. Nothing wrong with the M1A or Chinese M-14 (if you replace the bolt with a USGI bolt), but let's be honest about the costs of becoming 'very accurate'.
To me, a shooter of 25 years, competition shooter of 15 years, hunter of 15 years... "very accurate" means $2800 MINIMUM. Very accurate means H&K BASR or Blaser LMSR. If you cant make a dinner plate at 800m, then it is not "very accurate". IMHO a dinner plate shot at 1000m will set your checking account back 5k. *shrug* So, a working definition of "very accurate would be needed". Most people are happy with melon shots at 200m. That can be had for way way under $1000.

gunner | 10-25-2006 04:22 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? M1a .308 - www.fultonarmory.com FAL .308 - www.dsarms.com IMO - can't go wrong with either

Abouthadit | 10-25-2006 04:22 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Check this one out. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=59063730

crazychicken | 10-25-2006 04:50 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? I just got a SOCOM. Man, what arifle.

Wyldwil | 10-25-2006 06:17 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by gunner (Post 397390) M1a .308 - www.fultonarmory.com FAL .308 - www.dsarms.com IMO - can't go wrong with either
I'd love to get a FAL. Never been to fulton armory B4, saw this thing and shot a load in my shorts...

Anty Ep | 10-25-2006 06:19 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 397389) I tell ya what - let's both take our rifles to the range, your AR and my AK. Let's both shoot a full 'economy-sized' tube of toothpaste into the receiver and then we will both (attempt) to fire off full 30 round magazines. Can you guess which rifle will empty a full 30 round mag without a hiccup???
you dont need to lecture me about this as I cut my teeth on aks and learned AR on down the line

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Anty Ep | 10-25-2006 06:35 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Quote:
Originally Posted by gunner (Post 397390) FAL .308 - www.dsarms.com
Dave S. owns it. For years he's been tooling up his production of FAL rifles built up on imported receivers from Europe and South America. He's had some capable gunsmiths working for him too. Anyhow his FALs are better than anybodys.

RickW | 10-25-2006 07:02 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? I love the H&K MP 5. 800 rounds per minute

gunner | 10-25-2006 07:22 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyldwil (Post 397513) I'd love to get a FAL. Never been to fulton armory B4, saw this thing and shot a load in my shorts...
Hahaha - yeah, I thought the same thing too, but then I saw the price tag, I got the cold swimming pool effect :haha:

gunner | 10-25-2006 07:27 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 397536) Dave S. owns it. For years he's been tooling up his production of FAL rifles built up on imported receivers from Europe and South America. He's had some capable gunsmiths working for him too. Anyhow his FALs are better than anybodys.
I agree, I have the SA-58 and it's a really nice gun - would be my choice in a SHTF scenario. I like the option of gas pressure adjustment in the event that it's impossible to clean your rifle while you're busy with something else.:D

TomD | 10-25-2006 07:54 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Worldmariner (Post 397386) To me, a shooter of 25 years, competition shooter of 15 years, hunter of 15 years... "very accurate" means $2800 MINIMUM. Very accurate means H&K BASR or Blaser LMSR. If you cant make a dinner plate at 800m, then it is not "very accurate". IMHO a dinner plate shot at 1000m will set your checking account back 5k. *shrug* So, a working definition of "very accurate would be needed". Most people are happy with melon shots at 200m. That can be had for way way under $1000.
You are probably right on the price tag. A Match M1A will cost slightly over $2,000 and a good sighting system could easily go a grand more. Even that isn't "very accurate" by my standards. I have been shooting several disciplines for around 15 years. My competition rifles are built on custom actions and can change caliber by just screwing one barrel off and another on. The rifle pictured is based on a Viper action and can consistently shoot within a penny sized hole at 200 yards. That particular barrel is chambered for 6 mm PPC, you have to make the cartridge yourself because nobody makes them. Another of my rifles will keep within 5 to 6 inches at 1,000 yards unless the wind gets out of hand. Other than rimfire like 22, I haven't shot anything loaded in a factory in 2 decades and I've shot 10's of thousands of rounds.

J.D.Rockinfeller | 10-25-2006 10:43 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber (Post 397005) Suppose I could only have 1 rifle and needed it for both hunting and defending myself, what would it be? Probably would need to be used for hunting deer or similar sized animals. I have an AK, and it is a Norinco NHM 91 that is supposedly a good "sporting" AK, but I'm not sure what would be a better option. I have been looking at AR's , but the cost is extremely high, and I'm not sure how reliable they are compared to AK's. Maybe I'd be looking for something more accurate at longer distances than an AK, or maybe that's not necessary. What are your thoughts?
I am not sure which state you live in Bomber....but if Grizzle bear is in the equasion like it is in my neck of the woods SCRAP ANY .22!.....

Bomber | 10-25-2006 11:29 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? I'm in New York, where I quickly found it is almost a crime to own a semi-auto rifle. I had about 20 FFL's in my area say they won't transfer AR's or AK's because of NY's screwy laws.

Bomber | 10-25-2006 11:54 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? And on a side note, does anyone know if a Chinese Norinco NHM 91 AK 47 will accept any kind of folding stock without modification? I've looked but cannot find any info on this.

eat_beef | 10-25-2006 11:56 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Another strong point for the M14. No pistol grip (we all know how dangerous those are. :eek:) means that they aren't considered "assault weapons", so they aren't persecuted as stringently. A nuetered (no bayo lug, once again, oh the humanity!) m14 with a 10 round mag (instead of the usual 20 rounder) is A OK. Actually, one may be able to use the 20 rounders, but I'm no lewyer.:puke: Now if you plan on staying in NY, and your AK is grandfathered, no way I would sell or trade it. It would be worth keeping it around just to get under the anti's skin. Also, if you're in an apartment, I'd prefer a 12 ga 870 Wingmaster. We're talking one sixth of the price. I just like the idea of a 200 frn shottie laying in a relatively unprotected area (apartment) over a 1200 frn rifle. Plus, it'll do what you need done inside of 50 yards. Of course, it's your money, and maybe your circumstances are different. Maybe you have a nice safe, you're planning on moving, or you just want/like/prefer/feel more comfortable/confident with a rifle. At the end of the day, you just gotta do what you think is best for YOU.

gunner | 10-26-2006 12:03 AM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Might want to consider an SKS - can also use a Chinese 20 rd fixed mag...I've heard that they're pretty reliable. Reloading with stripper clips is pretty quick as well as a detachable mag http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/StateLaws.aspx?ST=NY 1. Assault weapon means: A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics: a folding or telescoping stock; a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; a bayonet mount; a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; a grenade launcher. a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following characteristics: a folding or telescoping stock; a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds; an ability to accept a detachable magazine. A semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics: an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip; a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer; a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned; manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded. A semiautomatic version of an automatic rifle, shotgun or firearm. Any of the weapons, or functioning frames or receivers of such weapons, or copies or duplicates of such weapons, in any caliber, known as: Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (All Models); Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; Beretta Ar70 (SC-70); Colt AR-15; Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC; SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12; Steyr AUG; INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12. Assault weapons does not include: any rifle, shotgun or pistol that: is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever or slide action; or has been rendered permanently inoperable; or An antique firearm as defined under federal law A semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition; A semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine; A rifle, shotgun or pistol, or a replica or a duplicate thereof, specifically exempted from the federal assault weapon ban list as such weapon was manufactured on October 1, 1993.

gunner | 10-26-2006 12:26 AM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 397767) Who's got those ChiCom 20-round fixed mags for the SKS anymore??? I want a couple.
I used to see then on www.gunbroker.com here and there. I know what you mean, I regret not getting them from www.tapco.com when they had them for $5.00 each !!

Bomber | 10-26-2006 12:29 AM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? i'm not quite in NYC, western NY actually, but it isn't much better here.

Anty Ep | 10-26-2006 10:10 AM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Anyhow if you're going to have an Ak get a Maadi Egyptian one or FEG Hungarian basically anything but a Norchinko POS. Get a Polytek Chink AK before you get a Norchinko they are the crappiest ones ever made and imported into the USA. Go pick up a Shotgun news from a newstand and learn to compare prices. It's remarkably similar market publication to the coin collecting magazines you can buy.

Anty Ep | 10-26-2006 10:41 AM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 398040) I don't know where you get that. I picked up a Maadi and a Norinco AK the other day in a fire sale a guy was having. The quality of the Norinco was far superior to the Maadi - the action was smooth as glass and my buddy I sold it to tells me it shoots very tight groups. Now I wish I had sold him the Maadi and kept the Norinco instead. There's absolutely nothing wrong with Norinco AKs.
ah, the slaves at the Norinco factory that made that gun must have had a good day. perhaps that one that you had was a good one. certainly their blueing is nicer than the crappy paint they put on the Maadis. But that's all I'd give em. when you talk about a sample size of one where Chinese AKs are concerned, where millions of weapons have been imported, it's not very convincing. I'm not pointing to personal anecdotes here this is based on generally accepted opinions of people in the gun trade and what I have read in the gun press for years. guns made on soviet-russian equipment are better than those made on chinese equipment. they have better tolerance and the steel is better too. it's a widely known and accepted generalization among gunsmiths and dealers and not one that I've made up out of my own limited personal knowledge. now the Chinks may have brought up their quality in the past few years but I would have to read something that would convince me of this before I accepted it.

Halophyte | 10-26-2006 10:55 AM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 397268) Umm, did you read the question? Perhaps a 223 will leave enough of a squirrel for a meal? Or maybe your 22lr will provide consistent one shot stops on a man? And what is the point about small game at 50 yards or cqb at 25? I don't recall him asking about small game, and furthermore, if I must defend myself @ 25 yards my first choice is a shotgun. The question was about a rifle which could fill both hunting and SD.
Very true. But the 308 is totally ridiculous. Unless those squirrels are driving armored personel carriers ... .

buff01 | 10-26-2006 11:36 AM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? AntiEp-- I know a lot of Chinese folks, and none of them deserve being called chinks. They are honest and hardworking people, with a great sense of family. Don't mistrust or slight them simply because they've been duped and/or cowed by their repressive government.

Anty Ep | 10-26-2006 12:05 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 398075) If you accept FRNs for what you do without a clear reservation of rights or some other remedy positive and concrete in nature, then you're a slave as well, although you may not be willing to admit it. (This includes the filing of 1040 forms)....
oh come on, like hell. if they are using convict labor, which they are, then there's a big difference. and it relates to the workmanship.

Anty Ep | 10-26-2006 12:12 PM
shieh shieh gwai loh Quote:
Originally Posted by buff01 (Post 398109) AntiEp-- I know a lot of Chinese folks, and none of them deserve being called chinks. They are honest and hardworking people, with a great sense of family. Don't mistrust or slight them simply because they've been duped and/or cowed by their repressive government.
Their form of government is of no concern to me-- its always been authoritarian and it always will be. Anyhow, l know lots too and like them fine, better than I do most other groups of non-European hard working third-world immigrants that have no place being here and "do the jobs 'Mericans wont do." But, a billion Han Chinese neither know nor care what I think and they probably dont need you to defend them. Also if you know them well enough you know how well they think of themselves as an ethnic group and how they think everybody else is lower on the ladder. If they allow themselves that view of the Han people than I can allow myself that view of my own kind too. Anyhow the reason Chicom guns are inferior is not because Chinese arent smart or hardworking, they're both, but because their state-owned armaments industries have been using convict labor to make small arms for decades. It raises a question of whether or not one should avoid buying Chinese guns simply as a matter of principle.

buff01 | 10-26-2006 12:46 PM
Re: shieh shieh gwai loh That's fine, and I have no illusions about who various races think are superior, etc. My point is that your pejoratives make you appear ignorant in many eyes and detract from the point you're making. No doubt you care little for this POV, but it's a statement I want to make. As for me, I have no love for many ethnic groups, but the Chinese and some other Asian groups I do have much respect for. I mainly appreciate their work ethic, ingenuity, and history, which I think is quite fascinating. I have no doubt that the same circumstances that caused western europeans to embrace liberty could have easily occurred in Asia, and in fact certain parts are today well known for their openness and high regard for individual freedom. (pre-PRC Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc) More and more I feel like the boot of authoritarianism is coming down on the west, and in that regard I don't see us as being so superior anymore. I find it humorous that some people look down on other parts of the world as being repressed while we (as a society) are being led down that path willingly ourselves.

JCarvingblock | 10-26-2006 02:12 PM
Re: Best rifle for hunting/defense combined? Accuracy is oversold. I was a violator and have hunted in foul weather in different types of terrain. I presume the original poster is presuming some kind of survival situation, and go on to presume you will be packing some survival gear besides a weapon. Weight and size prohibit big, long, and heavy weapons. You cannot carry much more than 35 pounds for any distance and every ounce matters. I have seen bear killed with 22 magnum - get this - pistols. I don't recommend pistols to anyone because very few people can fire them accurately. What I do recommend is a short barreled weapon with a short stock and action. Light weight of a medium caliber. One of my outlaw partners was a Viet Nam vet who had killed a tiger in Nam with a .223 and that was the caliber he carried hunting bear. I carried a Remington 600 carbine model (bolt action) in .243 caliber that I had cut about an inch off the stock. You need to be able to swing that weapon on target and hit a dinner plate at 50 yards fast - and fire within about 3-4 seconds and hit with the first shot. Firepower is also over-rated. The first shot is ten times more important than any sequence of shots. Nearly everything I ever killed died from the first shot. If your weapon of choice is prone to problems from condensation and/or small deposits of filth - get rid of it. The ammo weighs up too, and you need to consider how many rounds you are going to carry. I never owned an SKS or AK, but have heard many people testify as to accuracy and dependability. The only weapon I have my eye on getting yet some day is a ruger .22 with that 10-22 clip in semi-auto. Carver, who has rolled running fox at 200 yerds twice in one day at two different times in my life. (when I was years and years younger)

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