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Big Country | 06-02-2009 11:43 PM
Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems so here is the story! we grind our grain into flour with a nutrimill to the finest it will go and we're having trouble making bread...what recipes do you guys use if you don't mind sharing? All of our loaves have come out like bricks...here is the recipe we have used. Any advice would be MOST wonderful!! 2C warm water 1/3C honey 1_1/2T active dry yeast 1_1/2tsp salt 1/4 C vegetable oil 6C fresh milled flour We let the yeast proof for about 10 minutes them mixed the ingredients. We let rise in the oven with a steaming bowl of water for moisture and heat for 1 hour, punched it down, divided the loaf into two pans, let rise another hour in the over then cooked it and it bricked. It was a perfect brown color but only like 2 inches thick :-( Second batch we added 1/4C Vital wheat gluten to the mix and it came out about 3 inches thick, a little better, but still a brick. Any suggestions? I'd like bread that I can at least make a sandwich with!! Also fluffy-er (is that a word?) bread would taste better too! Right now I guess we're just getting used to eating flat bread so when the SHTF and we can't get yeast we'll already be prepared :tongue_ma: Big Country

scyth | 06-03-2009 12:03 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems Tassajara Bread Book Amazon Amazon Pick your poison - They're all good.............. scyth

nub | 06-03-2009 12:27 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems I use the nutrimill and the bosch blender, I use Sarahs recipe http://www.milkandhoneyfarm.com/sales/mill.html I don't think there is anything wrong with your recipe, next time after you make the dough go straight to the bread pan let it rise how ever you like (don't punch it down and rise again) then cook it....I think it will come out fine. The mistake I used to make was to hot of water for the yeast .....just luke warm nothing more. Lemme know how the next batch comes out . :15_1_70v: Also check out Artisan bread in 5 minutes over at Amazon, tons of good reviews, you can't believe how simple it is .....use the basic bread recipe it works great, no blender needed.

nub | 06-03-2009 12:29 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems Quote:
Originally Posted by scyth (Post 1751550) Tassajara Bread Book http://www.amazon.com/Tassajara-Brea.../dp/157062089X Pick your poison - They're all good.............. scyth
I used to go back into Tassajara hot springs, trip out ,and visit the monks.

Goldhedge | 06-03-2009 12:34 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems Salt seems a bit high to me. Doesn't salt keep yeast from rising?

scyth | 06-03-2009 01:15 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems Quote:
Originally Posted by nub (Post 1751573) I used to go back into Tassajara hot springs, trip out ,and visit the monks.
They always seemed kind of uptight to me. Course, it was a girlfriend of a girlfriend, there, And I was all gonads, vicegrips, horsewired together vehicles, And "across three counties in the moonlight" Those days. But I learned to appreciate, and make, bread. Nonetheless. Thanks for the memory kick. scyth

Heimdhal | 06-03-2009 01:41 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems Make sure your water is at no more than 115(110 is perfect) degrees, or it will most likley kill the yeast(assuming you are using active dry) Reduce your salt to 1 tsp. Salt inhibits gluten formation, and causes and shorter gluten bond, meaning denser bread. You're letting it over proof. You proof box(oven) should be about 90 degrees with 75-80% humidity. Water heated to around 140 and the oven at under 100 will do wonders for a quick proof box, microwave works too. If you use the microwave, just put the heated water in there, dont turn it on. When you shape your dough(however you are doing it, by hand or dough hook) take the ball, put it in a lightly oiled bowl(veg oil, olive oil, LIGHT butter, spray, etc, just so it doesnt stick) and let it proof on the country till double in size. You dont need a proof box for this. Punch the dough down. IMPORTANT: Let it bench rest for 15 minutes, that helps relax the gluten. RESIST THE URGE! Shape it and pan it, or leave it "artisan"(round dough on pan). If you wish, you can now use the proof box method, or let it rise on the counter, COVERED with plastic and a towel, until doubled in size or till the dough springs back when LIGHTLY poked with finger. Wash(brush) with some milk, egg, water, or leave plain(this just helps color and crisp. Milk will be darker, matt color with a better crips, egg will be crunchy and shiny, etc.) SCORE THE LOAF. Ill go with the assumption you are panning it. Put one length wise 3/4 inch slice in the top of the loaf. Be carefull not to put to much pressure when cutting it or youll collapse the proof. USE A SHARP SHARP KNIFE OR RAZOR, and dont go too deep. Sore AFTER you put the wash on. Scoring it helps release some of the steam and allow added space for the loaf to 'grow' into when in the oven. Then bake as per instructions. When you take the loaf out, get it out of the pan and onto a cooling rack quick. If you are going cut into it, wait at least until it a bit cooler. Cutting into piping hot breade, as good as it taste, dries the loaf out. Wait till the loaf is completley at room temp until you put it in a bag for storage. Otherwise it will sweat in the bag and dry it out. Hope this helps. The best thing you can do is go to target, get a 12$ digital scale and start using weight instead of volume. Its MUCH MUCH easier and more effiecnt and youll have less mistakes. Its was we professional bakers use and it is heads and tales above volume measuring.

nub | 06-03-2009 02:35 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems Check out how Sarah makes her loaves one rise and that is in the pan ....that is all.I've made these same loaves many times they come out just fine. Heimdahl's loaves are more classical ....what do you expect from a trained baker http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYq2r205PEU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYq2r205PEU

Camp Bassfish | 06-03-2009 07:48 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldhedge (Post 1751575) Salt seems a bit high to me. Doesn't salt keep yeast from rising?
Sure does. We had a bread machine awhile back. I mistakenly used Tbs of salt instead of Tsp....... Best pretzel dough I've ever tasted!

samwheat | 06-03-2009 07:51 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems Sarah's recipe is the best. Everybody that I make it for raves about it.

Danubian | 06-03-2009 10:00 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Country (Post 1751524) so here is the story! we grind our grain into flour with a nutrimill to the finest it will go and we're having trouble making bread...what recipes do you guys use if you don't mind sharing? All of our loaves have come out like bricks...here is the recipe we have used. Any advice would be MOST wonderful!! 2C warm water 1/3C honey 1_1/2T active dry yeast 1_1/2tsp salt 1/4 C vegetable oil 6C fresh milled flour We let the yeast proof for about 10 minutes them mixed the ingredients. We let rise in the oven with a steaming bowl of water for moisture and heat for 1 hour, punched it down, divided the loaf into two pans, let rise another hour in the over then cooked it and it bricked. It was a perfect brown color but only like 2 inches thick :-( Second batch we added 1/4C Vital wheat gluten to the mix and it came out about 3 inches thick, a little better, but still a brick. Any suggestions? I'd like bread that I can at least make a sandwich with!! Also fluffy-er (is that a word?) bread would taste better too! Right now I guess we're just getting used to eating flat bread so when the SHTF and we can't get yeast we'll already be prepared :tongue_ma: Big Country
BC, it sounds like the protein (gluten) lacks strength and or propper modification. My first couple of suggestions - which may or may not be correct since there could be more than one thing that needs attention - for instance flour particle size which you probably have little control over if you've got the mill at the finest. BTW exactly what type of mill? * water temp @ 78'F * perhaps more kneading - sufficient physical mixing/kneading to develop the ability to stretch relatively freely. * allow a little more time on the first fermentation (bulk fermentation) * allow another bulk fermentation after you've punched it down. * then divide the dough and allow it to expand again on the dusted board 30 min (intermediate proof) * finally, after intermediated proof final mould and tin and allow it to prove until it fills the tin then bake it off. If yeast becomes difficult to obtain use a sourdough that you make yourself. This method cultures the endemic bacteria & yeasts of your grain or fruit. These microflora have a symbiotic relationship, are very hardy and make the cheapest but best bread additive & monoculture yeast corporation free! Good luck. http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=173877 http://sourdough.com/gallery/v/user/...2b466830485b98

Danubian | 06-03-2009 10:26 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems BTW salt shouldn't exceed 2% of the flour weight eg. kg % flour 1.000 100 water .650 65 salt .020 2 yeast .020 2 fat/oil .010 1 Total 1.700 170

jaybone | 06-03-2009 10:38 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems I use the basic bread machine recipe for whole wheat with three mods: 1 - I use 5% white flour and 5% fresh ground whole oats 2 - I let yeast sit in the cupboard overnight in warm water/sugar 3 - I run a dough cycle on the machine first, then I run the whole wheat cycle turn out pretty darn good,

Saul Mine | 06-03-2009 10:51 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems The recipe for bread is water, flour, and salt. Anything else is fanciness. For instance, you add yeast because the yeast already in the flour is not very quick. I use two tsp for a three cup recipe. I suggest you try about four. Maybe you add sugar to feed the yeast. Maybe you add oil or butter as a dough conditioner. Bread needs salt, but it doesn't need much. I use one shake for three cups flour, your recipe would call for two shakes, not 1 1/2 tsp. Add the salt to the flour, not the water. I have no idea why, but if you add the salt to the water the dough won't rise. I'm still fighting with the water. The dough only rises well when I use enough water to make it awfully gooey. I don't like that, but it works. Even a Tbsp more or less water makes a noticeable difference.

Heimdhal | 06-03-2009 11:04 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems Quote:
Originally Posted by Danubian (Post 1751965) BTW salt shouldn't exceed 2% of the flour weight eg. kg % flour 1.000 100 water .650 65 salt .020 2 yeast .020 2 fat/oil .010 1 Total 1.700 170
The yeast and oil seems a bit low in there, but could just be the particular recipe. Id love some recipies, btw, if you'd be willing to share. I lost alot of my good bread recipes on my old computer.

hypervel | 06-03-2009 11:14 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems Cook the first rise.....Whole wheat is like a bowl full of knives, pops the little bubbles.

tulsamal | 06-03-2009 11:22 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems There is a woman in Tulsa, OK named Beverly Prentice, M.S, R.D. She has worked as a registered dietitian for decades. Her father was a doctor but he died when he was in his late twenties of colon cancer. Through her work and research, Bev became convinced that her father could have avoided the cancer if he had eaten a high fiber diet. So Bev decided to start a home business as well as her career. She teaches classes on how to make bread. She sells equipment and raw materials in bulk out of her garage. She's a great lady with an amazing family. I've been to three of her classes. I have a Nutrimill and a Bosch Universal. I make bread about once a week. The two recipes I make more than any other are the Basic bread recipe and the black beans one. We use the basic bread for all of our normal family bread needs. My wife loves some kind of raisin, cinnamon and nut bread for breakfast. So I took Bev's black bean recipe and added cinnamon. The wife eats it for breakfast with peanut butter literally every day. When we run out, I hear about it! The Basic recipe is a great place to start. Once you have the feel for it, then you can try adding other things. I use a variety of different grains. I also use some buttermilk powder. And I usually use some rolled seven grain mix that I pre-soak in hot water first. Here are my scans of those two recipes from Bev's book, Grain of Truth. The book is packed with lots of great whole grain recipes and well worth buying. Gregg http://homepage.mac.com/greggg/basic.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/greggg/turtle.jpg

horseshoe3 | 06-03-2009 11:27 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=354835 Here's a thread where I asked a similar question. Quite a few good responses. HTH

CJT | 06-03-2009 03:32 PM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems Not to brag, but mine is wonderful.:biggrin: http://tinkletimes.com/blog/wp-conte...g/img_8261.jpg I grind my wheat just before I�m going to use it. I use Prairie Gold white wheat. I buy it in 5 gallon buckets. * 1-1/2 cups very warm water * 1 egg * 2 - 4 tablespoons oil (I generally use safflower) * 2 tablespoons cane sugar * 1/2 tablespoon kosher salt * 3 tablespoons vital wheat gluten (don't leave this out!) * 3 to 3-1/2 cups whole wheat flour * 1 scant tablespoon instant acting yeast Put ingredients in the order given into a bread machine. Let it run through the dough cycle until it stops kneading, reset the machine and let it complete the dough cycle. During the first run, you�ll think the dough is way too wet. But generally by the time it starts into the 2nd cycle of kneading, the dough starts coming together. Only then, add more flour if you think it needs it, but this dough should be very sticky, just firm enough to manage with wet hands. It will stay spread out inside the pan in the machine. The reason I let the dough go through 2 cycles in my bread machine (each cycle warms up for about 20 minutes prior to kneading the dough) is that wheat soaks up a lot of water. If you just mix the dough like you would white flour, and added flour until the texture was correct, you�d wind up with the �brick� everyone complains about when trying to bake 100% whole wheat bread. If you�ll follow my directions, I promise your bread will be as fluffy and full of holes as all white bread. After dough cycle is complete, toss a couple handfuls of water onto a cutting board, place the dough on it and cut in half. With wet hands, shape the dough into two loaves and plop it into greased bread pans. I bake it in a 350 degree convection oven until it�s golden brown. About 30 minutes in glass pans.

Big Country | 06-03-2009 04:02 PM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems wow! Thanks guys! I will definately try these suggestions! Here is my shortlist of things to try on the new loaf: less salt proof differently more kneading I will try these when I get a chance and report back how it works! Anyone else wants to share their ideas? I'd love to hear them Big Country

Danubian | 06-04-2009 09:22 AM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems 3 Attachment(s) Just a few bread fromulas for those of you interested. All these fromulas use no bakers yeast only sourdough. Good luck & enjoy

MattC | 06-04-2009 12:01 PM
Re: Fresh flour whole wheat bread problems 1 Attachment(s) I grind wheat by hand in a Country living grain mill. I buy high protein wheat from Honeyville Grain. The finess of the grind is actually not as important as you may think. My bread flour is definantly much courser than purchased bread flour, yet my bread rises and has a wonderful light fluffy texture. My recipie for a single loaf (300 cranks of my mill or 4 minuites of work) is 3 cups of flour, one cup of warm water. If you are going to err on the side of caution go colder vs hotter, shoot for the temperature of blood. Its not all that important. I add a tablespoon of sugar and a tablespoon of honey. A pinch of salt, maybe1/4 teaspoon. I then add some vital wheat gluten, maybe 3 tablespoons if I had to guess. Now add two packets of quick rise yeast or a table spoon and a half if you have the jarred yeast. I usually add a tablespoon of either olive oil or butter. I mix together the ingrediants usually in my kitchen aid mixer with a dough hook and usually add a couple tablespoons of water till I get a soft dough. A thick dough wont rise. It should immediately slump some when thrown into a bowl. It should double in size within half hour to 45 minuites, punch it down, form loafs and let it rise again usually 1/2 hour or so, bake 350 25 minuites. I can grind 3 cups of flour and have teh dough in a bowl rising in about 10 minuites. I have used probably 120 pounds of wheat in the last year (quite a few loafs of bread) and this works for me.

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