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cb&julie | 04-23-2006 07:14 PM
bullets and such As I make survival preps I begin to wonder what are the heaviest or most effective bullets that I can stock up on. I've seen talk of AP rounds but I have no idea where you buy such things. Here's a more reasonable scenario for me: I'm at wal-mart at the ammo counter. What's the best stuff to buy for my 9mm? I usually buy the cheapest (and softest) rounds for target practice. best, c

Apatriot | 04-23-2006 10:29 PM
Re: bullets and such If your 9mm is made to accept +P ammunition,you should buy some for when you have to use it against people.It will defeat body armor below Level 3A,(2 and 2a)which is what you will most likely come up against. If not rated +P,make sure it is at least full metal jacket. If you own a rifle,almost anything in a full metal jacket boat tail ,30 cal and up will take care of all but Level 4 ceramic plates. You do not really need armor piercing,if you will practice some simple but effective shots. Head,and waist down.This defeats 90% of body armor. When i say head,i mean with a handgun from 50 feet or less,or with a shotgun same distance. Most people always practice shoot the way law enforcement amd Uncle sam train-Center Mass. Think outside of the box when thinking of firearms confrontations,and you will not only survive,but most likely win. Also,in shots from the waist down,not only will your attackers be wounded,but to flee,it will generally take one or more to help him/her,and that shaves down your opposition by attrition.

Walter Mitty | 04-23-2006 10:31 PM
Re: bullets and such Probably want to get 50-100 rounds of hollow point and 350-400 rounds of straight full metal jacket. AP rounds in handgun cartridges/calibers are illegal. The South African 7.62 x 51 (.308 Winchester) is good stuff. Q3131A Winchester or Federal M193 in 5.56 x 45 55 grain.(.223) Federal or Lake City M855 /SS109 (with the steel penetrator tip) 5.56 x 45. (.223)62 grain. The Greek or Lake City M2 ball (30-06) is good. I would stay away from the Indian 7.62 x 51. Some say the British SS109 5.56 x 45 is underpowered for use in the Brit SA85. Make sure your rifle has a 5.56 Nato chamber before using the 62 grain 5.56 x 45 ammo.

cb&julie | 04-23-2006 10:42 PM
Re: bullets and such Quote:
Originally Posted by Apatriot If your 9mm is made to accept +P ammunition,you should buy some for when you have to use it against people.It will defeat body armor below Level 3A,(2 and 2a)which is what you will most likely come up against. If not rated +P,make sure it is at least full metal jacket. If you own a rifle,almost anything in a full metal jacket boat tail ,30 cal and up will take care of all but Level 4 ceramic plates. You do not really need armor piercing,if you will practice some simple but effective shots. Head,and waist down.This defeats 90% of body armor. When i say head,i mean with a handgun from 50 feet or less,or with a shotgun same distance. Most people always practice shoot the way law enforcement amd Uncle sam train-Center Mass. Think outside of the box when thinking of firearms confrontations,and you will not only survive,but most likely win. Also,in shots from the waist down,not only will your attackers be wounded,but to flee,it will generally take one or more to help him/her,and that shaves down your opposition by attrition.
Have been shooting most of my life. I could make a head shot at ~150 yards with an accurate rifle. I need to practice more with my sidearm, though.

Book | 04-23-2006 10:43 PM
Re: bullets and such What a coincidence! Three hours ago I was buying ammo for my 9mm at Sportsman's Warehouse: -Federal Premium 135 Grain HYDRA-SHOK JHP -CCI Blazer 115 Grain FMJ I load all my magazines by alternating JHP with FMJ JHP FMJ JHP FMJ JHP FMJ etc :beer:

Prometheus | 04-23-2006 10:54 PM
Re: bullets and such Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Mitty Probably want to get 50-100 rounds of hollow point and 350-400 rounds of straight full metal jacket. AP rounds in handgun cartridges/calibers are illegal.
I'd say atleast 100 of HP and atleast 1k of FMJ per pistol. For rifles screw the HP's (except maybe for hunting, then use soft points) and get all FMJ, atleast 2k preferably 3k per rifle. Federal law for AP ammo for handguns is only illegal for import and manufacture. As with almost every other gun/ammo law, what you already have is grandfathered in. Hence you can find private persons with AP pistol rounds and a private person can sell any ammo that he has that is grandfathered in. Be advised state laws may differ. Best buys at the wallyworld right now: .22lr 550 round bulk packs. 9mm, 40s&w and 45acp 100 round winchester bulkpack, winchester whitebox 25rd shotgun shells. You won't go wrong buying them and prices will never be lower. For 9mm+p ammo I buy fiochi, it's dang near +P ammo at a price close to the whitebox price when you buy it by the case... The box just says 9mm, but look at the speeds it's pushing. Every 2 weeks I go into walmart and buy 25 bucks worth of ammo. (not replacement, just extra) Usually it's 2 boxes of remington .22lr 550 round bulkpack and 2 boxes of shotgun sheels (25 round each) and the next week 2 100 round 9mm bulk packs and 1 box of 25 shotgun shells. Ever once in awhile I'll drop the scattergun shells for a 100 round box of .45acp... I only use .45acp in my carry gun so I don't stock it liek I do 9mm. Between subguns and sidearms I have close to a dozen 9mm's between the wife and I Thats alot of 9mm to stock at 1k rounds per weapon :cool2:

money matters | 04-23-2006 11:29 PM
Re: bullets and such I have some Federal hydra-shok for defense purposes, but do not favor hollowpoint bullets. A flat-point bullet will have greater impact and the least deflection. Flat point will leave a better wound channel in game animals and will likely feed as well as ball ammunition. If you want to have a versatile handgun, buy some handloading eqpt and tailormake your ammunition. A pound of gunpowder will cost about $20 and provide close to 1500 loaded rounds in 9mm Parabellum. If your gun has fixed sights you learn where each load will impact and adjust your aim. Most people with adjustable sights will only zero the piece for their defense round as it is what is critical. A 38 special is fairly comparable to 9mmP. A 38 can fire a wadcutter bullet which is flat to the extreme, and cheap to buy with about 3 grains of powder and a 148 grain wc bullet will have superb accuracy and destroy less meat than a .22lr hollowpoint. Seems like a 9mm has bullets from 85 grains up to about 147 grains. 125 grains are what most police will use in a +P load. I think many people overlook handloading, which is to their disadvantage. If nothing else, you should try to save your empties, because you could meet someone who could reload them for you. The brass represents half the cost of your ammo, maybe more since copper has soared in price. I would not skimp and buy the aluminum or steel cased ammo since they cannot be reloaded. For the same reason, you should avoid Berdan Primed ammunition from abroad; it cannot be reloaded. To really have the world by the tail, consider buying some bullet casting eqpt. Really nice to be able to make your own bullets. Wheelweights can be melted and cast as is. They are very hard and penetrate better than most commercial slugs. You can melt led on a camp stove with a small cast iron pot. A lead dipper and some gloves is about all you need to begin making bullets, after you have a bullet mould. Lee Engineering makes aluminum mouls that sell for under $20. Ask your tire dealer if they have some salvage wheelweights to sell you, or go to a recycling center. Reloading enables you to make ammunition better than you can buy, and to be able to match it to the function you want. Much better to shoot a racoon or possum with a big slow moving bullet that won't penetrate out and put a hole in the roof. Same way if you are killing an animal for slaughter. Using a hollowpoint on a game animal is just wasting meat. A 9mmP is not a first choice defense handgun .357 mag or .45acp will do the job with one shot. Likely it will take multiple hits with a 9mmP to stop a perpetrator; and stopping power is what it is about. Check into reloading if you want to really make your guns perform.

Apatriot | 04-24-2006 01:24 AM
Re: bullets and such If you do decide to hand load,take it one step further and go the extra step and water proof the finished round.A military grade lube for seating the bullet in the case,and clear fingernail polish or other light clearcoat on the primer after the round is fully loaded,will aid in the long term storage of ammunition. most hand loaders don't worry about this,because they shoot often enough that the ammo doesn't sit that long. But,for long term preps,and secure storage,waterproofing will guarantee your hand loads will function when the time comes.

wallew | 04-24-2006 01:27 AM
Re: bullets and such The last two posts say it all. Handloading is easy and cheap. Primers are not that expensive. Neither is powder, cases or bullets. It is definately the way to go. BUT always have at least 1000 rounds ready to use RIGHT NOW. Per gun. That's BARE MINIMUM. More if you can store it and afford to purchase more. Skip the 9mm. Like was said above, either the .357 or .45 acp are better choices. But if a nine is where you are at, just learn to get REALLY GOOD with it. And PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. I fear a man with only one gun. He usually knows how to use it.

Book | 04-24-2006 08:51 AM
Re: bullets and such 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Skip the 9mm. -wallew
Attachment 13762 My Kahr P9 is the smallest 9mm pistol and for concealed carry it is ideal. Better ballistics than .38 Special, Tritium night sights, 7+1 capacity. http://www.kahr.com/review.html Larger caliber handguns are just not concealable in Summer.

money matters | 04-24-2006 11:41 AM
Re: bullets and such Sorry, Any 38sp can outdo a 9mmP in the ballistics dept. Terminal ballistics are another matter. An S&W J frame titanium in .357 may only have 5 shots, but WOW! The revolver guy is not limited to 38+P any longer. Anyone standing behind you, at night, can also "see" your nightsights. Massad Ayoob has written about ccarrying a model 29 4" .44mag concealed when he traveled to South Africa during Summertime. Concealable is as concealable does. No "trick ammo" can overcome physics. A heavier mass arriving at the same speed delivers more energy, will do more "work". A .44 mag can be loaded "down" so that it has almost no recoil. Winchester Silvertips in .44special are very managable in 44mag. A lead semi-wadcutter bullet weighing 240 grains, loaded to about 750 fps has almost no recoil in a N frame S&W. A 9mmP is much better than a sharp stick. I bought a Browning P35 Hi-Power when I was 17. First of the high capacity 9s. A beautiful gun. When I replaced it with a Colt 1911 Gold Cup, I knew I really had something. If you want concealable, try an Officers ACP. A lot of people like Glocks, KelTecs, CZs Maybe a .40 is a good compromise, I don't know. I've been sold on the .45acp for a long time. I've loaded "up" the .45 using .45 Super cases which take more pressure. A 230 grain flat point bullet moving at about 1,000 fps out of a 1911 is really a powerhouse. No need for that kind of power against a 2 legged perpetrator, but a Grizzly is another matter. Kind of interesting what you can do with a 1911. Remove the barrel bushing in about 5 seconds and install a lightweight spring, shoot target loads all day long. Superb accuracy from a target tuned .45 acp. Put in a 30lb spring set and shoot .45 Supers. Buy a .22lr conversion unit, shoot .22s for cheap practice. Buy a .38 Super frame and barrel with magazine, and you have Super 9mm, like a .357 Sig. Lots of wildcats if you want to play with them. The handgun is only PART of the picture. If you load your own ammunition you can just about make it do whatever you want. Yet, there are no magical bullets or panaceas. The heaviest bullet you can accurately place on your target is going to be your fight stopper. Elmer Keith, in his classic Sixguns, told the story of a black cowboy who was shot in a case of mistaken identity up in Chicago. The railroad cop emptied a 9mm luger into him. Keith reported the cowpoke said, "Are you through?" Drew his 45 colt single action and killed him. The cowboy lived long enough to tell bystanders who the cattle belonged to and how to contact the owners. Robert Ruark wrote Use Enough Gun. He should have said, "Use enough Bullet".

Book | 04-24-2006 12:52 PM
Re: bullets and such 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Massad Ayoob has written about carrying a model 29 4" .44mag concealed when he traveled to South Africa during Summertime.
Attachment 13770 Ok...if you say so...size doesn't matter for concealed carry in Summer.

Prometheus | 04-24-2006 06:10 PM
Re: bullets and such Quote:
Originally Posted by Book Larger caliber handguns are just not concealable in Summer.
I couldn't disagree more. In fact IMO it's more difficult to carry a full size handgun in the winter than in the summer. In the summer a light weight floral print shirt will cover anything on the hip. In the winter with a heavy jacket, sweater ect. ect. it takes an hour just to get to a large handgun under all those layers. A small pistol in the jacket pocket is much mroe advised. Anyway, I live in Palm Beach FL for several years where my daily carry was atleast one HK USP 45 in full size. A few times a month I carried dual USPs in a sholder rig. Very easy to carry and conceal and deploy. I've lived here in WN indiana (super cold as balls, frigid, windy nasty much colder than any new england winter type of place) and Most times in the winter I still carry the USP (never dual in the winter because I could never get to a should rig with all the clothing) but I also carry a pocket gun to buy me some time under I can find cover to deploy the full size. Anyway, there is nothing wrong with a 9mm for daily carry. I carry a .45 simply because I expect all my ecounters to be at point blank to 7 yards maximum. Come SHTF I'm going with my 9mm's No way I want to try and engage someone at any distance with a .45acp... too crappy a trajectory and it's highly affected by the wind. As the POS and POG increases I'm going to buy a FN FiveSeven and expriment on that as carry and SHTF gun. I say until teh POS and POG increase because I'm buying almost nothing but PM's right now and I really don't need another pistol right now, not to mention the expensive ammo for it. Different calibers for different jobs. The first rule of gun fight is to have a gun. Caliber is secondary to having the gun (and being able to deploy it) in the first place. I'd much rather have a .22lr that i shoot the eye out of a nat at 100 yards with than a 45 or 9 or 357 or 50AE that i can't hit the broad side of a barn with at 6 inches.

Book | 04-24-2006 09:28 PM
Re: bullets and such Quote:
I couldn't disagree more. In fact IMO it's more difficult to carry a full size handgun in the winter than in the summer. -Prometheus
Thanks for your interesting information and opinion. That's why I really enjoy GIM. Everybody gets to express their opinion. Agreement is optional. There is a difference between concealment and accessibility. :beer:

Worldmariner | 04-25-2006 08:28 PM
Re: bullets and such Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew The last two posts say it all. Handloading is easy and cheap. .
Also, if you load your own, and you have a drill press, you can create all kinds of interesting bullets. I would add that when choosing a caliber, most law enforcement and most military units use 9mm, .223, and .308.

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