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uranian | 01-05-2007 01:43 PM
Latin America as a bugout spot Rather than hijacking Andy's solar thread, I'll start this one. I've been looking at South America as a place to go if the NWO crystallise their plans for apparently dictatorship in europe/n america/japan it seems, and view the move led by Chavez in opposition to globalisation meaning "big (mostly) american corporations get to take away all our (typically natural, mineral etc.) resources and leave very little but a mess in return" (personally, free trade and capitalism seem fine ideas to me, but economic siege warfare, everything the NWO stand for economically, doesn't) as a fine thing. He is democratically elected, which is more than I can say for Blair or Bush or entirely anyone in the WTO. I'm expecting hackles for liking Chavez, so I'm pre-defending myself :haha: anyway, farmland prices is my theme. $3,000 to $6,000 per acre in TN, if I recall Andy accurately, $1,000 in Uruguay for OK land, $100 for "frontier land"! in Brazil, less in Africa. Of the African nations, Botswana came out high in terms of not suffering corruption, having a free press, that kind of stuff, in transparency international's latest stats, plus they have mineral resources (gold, amongst others). Haven't checked out prices there yet. Any of you guys own land farther afield, or happen to be from these places yourselves? Or have any other informative comments or links?

uranian | 01-05-2007 03:07 PM
Re: Latin America as a bugout spot here's a nice place in brazil, $160 per acre for about 100 acres, complete with your own waterfalls! http://realestate.escapeartist.com/P-2000179/

REV127 | 01-06-2007 02:59 AM
Re: Latin America as a bugout spot Give Africa 50 to 100 years before considering a move there. South America has worked for many immigrants from Europe and Asia, but know the language and be street smart if you're going to do it. I used to date someone from Argentina. She moved to Miami and marvelled at how lawful American society was. If you're not familiar Miami is far from a lawful society. Central and South America has its bright points and you can definately get by if you're in the right place, but it has its momments that are quite unlike what you'd experience in Western Europe or North America.

Phantasmagoria | 01-06-2007 04:15 AM
Re: Latin America as a bugout spot Sudamérica: * Lots of hidden gems in terms of interesting and secluded places, and places with alot of history and culture and mystery. South America has more European-descended people than you would guess. Even in the more 'indigenous' countries like Ecuador and Peru. * Argentina is probably the most European of the countries, save for parts of southern Brazil and the nation of Paraguay. I can tell you that Argentina is stunning. Do an image search for 'Bariloche' and eat your heart out. They have an 'Oktoberfest' just like in Germany, and ski resorts. They've also gone through some recent hard times and come through it. Chile is also a good economy. Beautiful country down toward the south. * Structure of cities is one of the first big differences you will see, when you land at the airport before beginning the rest of your trek. The outlying areas and hillsides are for the campesinos, not well-to-do suburbanites. To illustrate this, think about a place like Detroit -- suburbs and rural areas are nice, inner city you want to stay the hell away from. Well in the main capital of Lima in Peru for example, the outskirts are the barrios (slums), while the heart of the city is where the wealthiest enclaves are found. **interesting sidenote: Rainfall is almost unknown in Lima. You'll get plenty of cloudcover during the year, but no precip! Weather types say this is due to the coastal upwelling and the presence of the cold Humboldt Current just offshore. * oh, be prepared for city-wide blackouts sometimes. Not unlike California. * check CL to start to gather some ballpark figures and see what's out there... http://buenosaires.craigslist.org/rfs/256349664.html -- I suspect you'll want to scout out sellers/websites that aren't marketed to (comparatively) wealthy 'Yanquis'. * of course you'll hear about how vendors and street hawkers will try to fleece you after .002 seconds of looking at you and determining you are a Gringo without opening your mouth. So, cultivate some jaded passe "i've seen all your bullshit before" world-wearyness; look like a hard edged mofo - nothing fancy or flashy; have some close Latin American friends; or all of the above. All it usually is is poor people trying to grab onto an extra buck by overcharging or picking your pocket; (I'm guessing you're not uberwealthy. In the moneyed neighborhoods, armed guards w/ machine guns guard the richest houses - it's a trip) --- Life and limb are about as safe as in major American cities. ...with the exception of: * Columbia! Columbia is just plain out of the question, as a stopover or otherwise. Sorry. So are parts of (the biggest cities of) Brazil --- you'd wanna avoid getting lost and winding up in the favelas. It's like miles and miles of labyrinthine slums stacked on high. * finally, I would go to one of my very favorite sites, www.virtualtourist.com ~~ and see what folks are saying. (I like to look up obscure places and see what people are doing. Like, what the hell are people up to in Siberia? I have a travel bug.) * Latin Americans are warm and welcoming, I've found. You won't lack for music and dance and the pace of life is slower. * Good luck! .

uranian | 01-06-2007 11:11 AM
Re: Latin America as a bugout spot Phantasmagoria, great info and links, thanks! I've spent a little time in central America, and heard the warnings from people there, but in my experience, just having half a wit about you is enough to avoid trouble. i went to a place in mexico city that i was strictly warned off by a mexican, no trouble. granted there are places that that won't be the case - colombia, by the sounds of it, and guatemala city from our travels - but for the most part, i don't see this as a problem. Sukhoi_fan, i think your advice is very relevant to that. interesting things i've seen thus far; 10 acres under fruit trees in argentina, $15,000, producing $5,000 after costs each year, if we believe the seller's figures. a house and water on the land, near a 100,000 person sized city. also the place in brazil, 40 acres of land including a building plot next to a river which would be fine for micro-hydro, $30,000. disadvantage that this is very rural (200km from the nearest city). advantage that it's lots of plots, some of which have been sold already, so there may be some people living there already.

crazychicken | 01-06-2007 12:33 PM
Re: Latin America as a bugout spot I have spent a considerable time in many of the wild and wooly places on Earth. In my opinion: Africa--I have done and still do business there. South Africa, Liberia, Nigeria. But there is no reason on Earth big enough to go there for any more than a few days. Far East: Japan-A great place to visit and do business. But you don't have enough money to live there-I don't care how much you have. Indonesia, Philipines, Thailand. Nice enough places. But the risk-level for religious BS is getting bigger everyday. I am doing business in the Philipines right now. Have never had one iota of problem-But I swear I can feel it. Viet Nam-There is a place to get along well and do good business. Have never seen or felt a shred of resentment. Central America-Honduras is a great place to do business, live, visit, you name it. I have properties down there. Have never had any trouble there even during the war. Mexico-IMO North America stops at the Rio Grande. Then there is Belieze and the others. Nothing inbetween. IMO Mexico should only be a navigational chart location because there isn't anything important enough to go there for. Every time I have ever been to Mexico I have trouble, including when I sent a crane there to help in the disaster relief in Mexcio City after the earthquakes in the mid '80s. Costa Rica is great, same as Belize. The rest of it is too iffy for me. South America: The rising anti-gringo sentiment is making it tougher and tougher to really do business there. I have seen a bunch of negative changes in the last fifteen years. My suggestion is the Dominican Republic--hands down---after Honduras. Just my two cents. CC

Curtman | 01-06-2007 05:10 PM
Re: Latin America as a bugout spot CC Thanks for that bit of insider information. Belize has a nice reef and lots of tourism from there to the Yucatan. Great opportunity for fun and prosperity.

thorgrim | 01-06-2007 05:34 PM
Re: Latin America as a bugout spot Quote:
Originally Posted by crazychicken My suggestion is the Dominican Republic--hands down---after Honduras.
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have never been to Central/South America but from my research the Dominican Republic seemed to be one of the better places to look into.

crazychicken | 01-06-2007 07:33 PM
Curtman and thorgrim Quote:
Originally Posted by thorgrim (Post 465169) Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have never been to Central/South America but from my research the Dominican Republic seemed to be one of the better places to look into.
The Dominican Republic: We mine there right now. The government is essentially business friendly. The President-Leonel Fernandez-is absolutely straight. He speaks English better than I do. The Secretary of the Treasury-Miguel Coco-is the same type person as his boss. He held the same position in Leonel's previous Presidental term. Good weather-no-Great weather. If you are a baseball nut the major league scouts root-about down there looking for talent. Baseball is every bit as popular there as rum and girls. And there is a LOT to be said for the rum and the girls, not particularly in that order. Good luck in your endeavors CC

crazychicken | 01-06-2007 07:59 PM
Re: Latin America as a bugout spot Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 465270) Thanks for sharing your perspective, CC. The Dominican Republic sounds interesting, however isn't sharing a compact land mass surrounded by water with a bunch of poverty-stricken Haitians a major potential problem??? I understand the Haitians have stripped Haiti absolutely bare of any wood/timber.
The DR has a pretty strong border arrangement. The military runs it. Some problems but it seems to work. The Dominican people look DOWN hard at the Haitians. The level of illegal koom-by-ah that is practised here doesn't really fly down there. There is a lot of business opportunity down there. A lot. In just about any legal category you can think of. The labor capabilities are interesting. There are some really well-educated and smart people there. And free-trade zones. Lots of opportunity. CC

crazychicken | 01-07-2007 07:54 AM
Re: Latin America as a bugout spot Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Ragnarsson (Post 465536) CC, I have also enjoyed your insight. If you wouldn't mind.... You mentioned Belize. A deacon at our church has a son that used to work at the US embassy there, and got to know one of the local priests. The priest also runs a school down there. This priest comes to the States about once a year, and when he visits our parish, he tells us how expensive it is to live there. For example, he said a ballpoint pen or a composition book would retail for about $5 US each, and he eats a lot of beans and rice because meat's too expensive. I'd be interested in your take - would an average middle-class dude be able to live in Belize on a modest pension/portfolio? Thanks in advance!
My experiences(humor me just a bit if I appear off subject): Belieze- Great weather and safer than most places south of the Rio Grande Lots of really remote places to disappear But like a lot of former British colonies they are very structured with a good bit of leftover colonial attitudes. That doesn't really mean negative attitudes, more like the way it feels, and is, in Bermuda. There is a real "former aristocracy mentallity" way of life among some. Their language is the most precisely spoken English that I have ever run accross anywhere. There is essentially no manufacturing, just agri and aquaculture, cottage industries and tourism with eco-tourism being a big thing. They have the biggest Jaguar Sanctuary anywhere. For all intents and purposes everything has to be imported, meaning expensive. Buy your own place out in the outer areas. Outer doesn't mean remote, just off the beaten track. Preferably near water, better with a stream or with a common border with a lake. Have a big garden and some livestock such as chickens, cow, beef. The weather will be your friend for this and heating. Sum---If you don't have to live the rich tourist life it is a great place to be. Good luck with your endeavors!!!!!! CC

uranian | 01-07-2007 01:01 PM
Re: Latin America as a bugout spot i've heard one not so encouraging story about DR, from a friend who stayed for a few months. this is a few years back, and mostly he complained about the lack of infrastructure, telegraphically and electrically. that's just one story. the rest of central america and the caribbean, i liked honduras and antigua/lago atitlan in guatemala...CR was a little more expensive that its neighbours, as was mexico. but don't central american nations have - often - histories of norte americanos running the places, como el pulpo (united fruit company) in the banana trade? or being run by the CIA, whatever else. much of central america (and southern mexico, chiapas most notably) suffers from great wealth inequalities (even by today's standards) between indigenous people and those of european descent. south america has that too, but in some places (e.g. argentina) to a much smaller degree, as there are fewer indigenous people there. loads of volcanos, too...nice soil, because of that.

crazychicken | 01-07-2007 03:21 PM
Re: Latin America as a bugout spot Quote:
Originally Posted by uranian (Post 465797) i've heard one not so encouraging story about DR, from a friend who stayed for a few months. this is a few years back, and mostly he complained about the lack of infrastructure, telegraphically and electrically. that's just one story. ----snip---
I think the statement above needs to be thought about. If anyone thinks they are going to go to-----pick a country------ and live simply, cheaply, no hassle, but otherwise the same as they have it here in the USA is not thinking straight. Everything everywhere has tradeoffs. CC

crazychicken | 01-07-2007 04:33 PM
Re: Latin America as a bugout spot Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Ragnarsson (Post 465936) :hahaha:So you're saying the Wal-Marts and 7-11s there don't stay open 24/7 like they do here????
Right on:afraid: There is another thing to consider. Many many folks think we live in a repressive society. BUT Please consider that once you are out of North America, meaning Canada and the United States THERE ARE NO RULES. At least what we are accustomed to. I've worked in 73 different contries with nary a problem. But I am mindful that the rules are different everywhere. In Poland you can get a traffic ticket for driving with your brights on at night in a residential neighborhood. In Mexico your car or bus can be stopped and you questioned regarding whatever the f.. they want. You tell the cop that you don't wish to talk to him you can spend a lot of time in one of their delightful jails until you change your mind. In Eqypt an employee of mine was arrested for taking a piture of a camel in the desert. Never did find out why, but it happened. I was arrested in Mexico City because the taxi I was riding in hit a kid on a bicycle. Three days in jail for nothing. In Rhyad an employee was arrested for having a bottle of whiskey in his bag. In Saudi an employee, non-muslim, of ARAMCO had his feet cut off for walking around Mecca. In South Africa held for twenty-four hours for being in a bar that was a hang-out for mercenaries. None of these problems was any sort of personal tragedy for me, I am simply throwing them out there. None of it was any kind of big deal, it just shows that things are different in other places. I'm not trying to be negative, just identifying something to throw into the equation. CC

crazychicken | 01-07-2007 05:56 PM
Re: Latin America as a bugout spot Quote:
Originally Posted by Sukhoi_fan (Post 465995) Yikes. I take it you didn't have enough money on you. My brother lives in Quintana Roo and I was talking to him about driving down there, going through Mexico City on the way. He said, "Don't even think about it. You don't have enough money to make it from one side of Mexico City to the other."
Right on. But it depends on the area of Mexico, meaning the thievery level of the officials. In the early '80s someone I KNOW EXTREMELY WELL had a minor altercation with two of the area bad guys. Both of them wound up double-tapped square in the chest-45 caliber version.:eek: When the local policia showed up this guy that I KNOW EXTREMELY WELL was on his eigth $100 USD when the local officials agreed that they were all looking at the pistol when it fell, hit the ground and fired four times, unfortunately killing the two bad guys. The pistol must have belonged to one of them because it would be illegal for a US citizen to have a pistol in Mexico.:adore: :adore: :adore: Senor', are you sure you have no more $$$$??? OK, maybe we see you next time you are in our beautiful country. Gracias!!! A very unfortunate accident.:D Of course the USD was worth more then. CC

crazychicken | 01-07-2007 06:12 PM
Thanks S.F. Thank you for identifying the gross mis-spelling! CC

uranian | 01-11-2007 05:31 PM
Re: Latin America as a bugout spot a little research later, argentina and uruguay are looking the best possibilities. both are the most european of the nations (less culture shock, less chance of racism towards the rich gringo), southern uruguay/pampas region of argentina has some of the best agricultural soil on the planet and the ideal climate for farming (mostly hot, reasonable amount of rain, spread pretty evenly across the year), prices for said land are highly reasonable (US$2000 per acre for land already in production, complete with housing, outbuildings etc. seems a fair estimate from looking at a number of places), higher literacy rates than the UK (99% in uruguay), some sort of social system in place (i see access to healthcare in exchange for paying tax as a reasonable deal), politically stable for the past 25 years or so in uruguay's case, all good.

uranian | 01-11-2007 05:41 PM
Re: Latin America as a bugout spot that place comes complete with housing plots on a river which'd be fine for micro-hydro. with about 5 ounces of gold, i could put 2 turbines in place for around 2 to 3kwh. phone/internet is entirely another matter, i grant you. satellite access is possible at $100 a month, i think i read.

uranian | 01-11-2007 05:47 PM
Re: Latin America as a bugout spot arrrrrr shiver me timbers, that's the beauty of micro-hydro, it's a constant source, even under ice. i read somewhere of someone using micro-hydro for all electricity needs without batteries, just dumping excess power to earth. big time drought could be a problem, agreed, but we're talking the state next to amazonas here. TS'dRHTHTF for that to run dry! http://www.brazil-land-sales.com/new...-lots/1a-4.jpg absolutely no arguing your taste in the females of the species, however http://forum.chelsea.org.ua/files/da...elli_2_544.jpg

uranian | 01-11-2007 06:04 PM
Re: Latin America as a bugout spot i'm not seriously considering this piece of land, as it's a little too rural for my tastes, 120km from the nearest city. http://www.brazil-land-sales.com/landforsale.htm is the place in question.

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