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PALLADIUM | 10-31-2009 03:26 AM
Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare by Jeff T. http://www.survivalblog.com/2009/10/..._your_wor.html I am the leader of a band of 8-to-12 looters. I have some basic military training. We move from place to place like locusts devouring everything in our path. My group is armed with light weapons and can develop and follow simple plans of attack. We take what we want by force of arms. We prefer none of our victims survive because that could cause problems for us in the future. It has been six months since the grid went down. You and the other five members of your party have settled into what may be a long grinding existence. The every day tasks of growing and gathering have now become routine. The news from the outside is extremely limited but you don�t really miss it much. Life is simple but physically demanding. Although things may seem stable you will need to keep your team focused and alert. This is your first and most important layer of defense. You should hold an immediate reaction drill once per week. Keep things simple. Practice a specific response to such threats as injury, fire, attack and evacuation. Despite the challenges you must maintain contact with those around you such as neighbors for vital clues that trouble is brewing. Regular monitoring the radio will be critical in providing an early warning of trouble. You may be able to safely interview refugees with risking your party. Keep in mind the information you get from them may not always be reliable. While you have been farming I have been learning the best tactics to employ to seize your property and your goods. I have been refining them since we hit the road right after the lights went out. I have conducted eight �hits� so far and have been successful seven times. Here are some of my �lessons learned�. Intelligence gathering and target selection is critical to my success. Targets include those who have large quantities of fuel, food and other valuable supplies. My posse is constantly questioning anyone and everyone we contact searching for this our next victim. Anyone who has ever had knowledge, even second hand, of your preparations is someone of interest to me. I may approach them directly or indirectly. If anyone knows something I will find out about it. Who seems well-fed? Who still has transportation? Who has lights? Who was prepared? Where are they exactly? Somebody talks, either in person or on the radio. They always do. We search for victims night and day. During the day we are listening for the sounds of machinery, cars, tractors, gunfire or generators. Day or night without a lot of wind those sounds can carry for miles. At night I look for any sort of light. Even a small flash indicates somebody with electricity and that means a rich target. I always have somebody listing to the scanner for any news, leads or insecure chatter. Operational Security (OPSEC) is an important concept for your entire group to understand and maintain. If somebody outside your circle doesn�t have a real need to know about your plans, preparations or procedures then they shouldn�t know period. Develop a cover story and live it like was a bulletproof vest. It is no less important to your protection and survival. During an event you need to blend in with the surrounding environment. Carefully observe noise (such as generators and other engines) and light discipline especially at night. If you need to test fire weapons do it in one sequence to avoid a prolonged noise signature. Once I find and target you reconnaissance of your retreat is my next step. Only a fool would try to rush in and try to overwhelm a group of �survivalists�. We had a bad experience with that during our second hit. Now we spend at least a day or two trying to size up a large opportunity and the best way to take it down. I will observe retreat activity from a nearby-concealed position. I will get an idea of your numbers, weapons, routines and so much more by careful surreptitious observation. If your group seems alert, I will try and trigger a false alarm with a dog or child to watch your reaction to a threat. That helps me know how you respond, where you are strong and how to attack. I may also obtain a topographical map of the area to identify likely avenues of approach and potential escapes routes you will try to use. I may coerce your neighbors into uncovering a weak spot or access point or other important intelligence. I also have a Bearcat handheld scanner. I will be listening for any insecure chatter from your radios. Regular patrols at irregular intervals focused on likely observation points and avenues of approach could keep me at bay. You could put down sand or other soft soil in key choke points as a way of �recording� if anyone has recently traveled through the land. Dogs, with their advanced sense of hearing and smell are able to detect and alert you to intruders well in advance of any human. Motion sensing IR video cameras as a part of a security plan could play a part in your layered defense as long as you have power. A 24 hour manned observation point equipped with high quality optical tools is a must. It should be fortified and if possible concealed. It should have a weapon capable of reaching to the edges of your vision. Seismic intrusion devices, night vision and thermal imaging are phenomenal force multiplying tools. They can give you critical intelligence and warning. You should use them if you have them. Understand they are not fool proof and I can often neutralize them if I know you have them. These tools and techniques provide you reaction time. Time to plan your response and time to execute that plan. Recognize that a �defender� is always at a disadvantage. By definition a defender will be reacting to my attack. Modern warfare has emphasized the ability of the attacker to operate faster than opponents can react. This can be explained by the OODA loop. Below are the four steps of the classic OODA loop. These are the steps a defender goes through when under attack. 1. Observing or noticing the attack. 2. Orient to the direction, method and type of attack. 3. Deciding what the appropriate response will be. 4. Acting on that decision. As an attacker I will try and operate at a pace faster than you as a defender can adjust to. I will change my direction, pace, timing and method to force you to continue to process through the OODA loop. This creates confusion and wastes your precious reaction time. As a defender you will need to disrupt or reset your attackers timing with a counter-attack. When you are successful you become the attacker. Your defensive plans should utilize and exploit this concept. Here are a few scenarios: 1. Snipe & Siege I will begin the attack when I can engage at least half of your party�s military age personnel in one coordinated effort. I will infiltrate my team into concealed positions around your retreat within 50 to 75 yards. I will target any identified leadership with the first volley. Two thirds of my people will be engaging personnel. The other group will target communications antennas, surveillance cameras and any visible lighting assets. I want your group unable to see, communicate or call for help. The members of my band will each fire two magazines in the initial exchange. Two thirds of my group will change to new concealed positions and wait. One third will fall back into an ambush of the most likely avenue of escape. We will stay concealed and wait until you come out to attend to your wounded and dead. We repeat the attack as necessary until any resistance is crushed. Ensure you adjust the landscape around your retreat so that I don�t have anyplace offering cover or concealment within 100 yards of your residence. You can create decorative masonry walls that can be used to offer cover for personnel close to your residence. Fighting positions can be built now and used as raised planting beds and then excavated for use in the future. These can be extended or reinforced after any significant event. These structures or other measures such as trenching must be sited carefully to avoid allowing them to be used effectively by an attacker if they are overrun. 2. Trojan Horse For one hit we used an old UPS truck. We forced a refugee to drive it to the retreat gate. We concealed half our group inside the truck. The truck was hardened on the inside with some sandbags around the edges. The other half of our group formed an ambush concealed inside the tree line along the driveway. We killed the driver to make it look good and had one person run away. Those preppers almost waited us out. After nearly three hours they all walked slowly down the driveway. They were bunched up in a group intent on checking out the truck and driver. It was like shooting fish in a barrel. They could have worked together as group to sweep the area 360 degrees around the truck and they would have surely found us. A dog would have also alerted the residents to our presence. They could have taken measures to eliminate the vegetation offering us concealment on the road near the gate. They could have used CS gas or something similar to �deny� any suspicious areas. Lastly they could have done a �reconnaissance by fire�. Shooting into likely hiding spots, including the truck, trying to evoke a response. They should have established an over watch position with the majority of their group. This over watch group would have provided visual security and an immediate response if there were an attack. They were not expecting any additional threats. They didn�t consider that there might be additional danger lurking nearby aside from the truck and they died. 3. Kidnap & Surrender A few weeks ago we surprised and captured a couple of women out tending a garden. It was totally by chance. We were traveling through a very rural area on our way to another town when somebody heard a tractor backfire. We immediately stopped and I sent a small team to recon the noise. They bumped into a small party tending a field at the edge of their retreat. They seized two women and immediately dragged them back to our vehicles. We began negotiations by sending a finger from each one back to the retreat under a white flag. The rest was easy. This didn�t need to happen. Better noise discipline would have kept us from discovering their retreat. Some simple boundary fencing or tangle foot could have delayed us. The women should have been armed and aware of such a threat. If they has established an over watch for the garden they could have engaged us before we took our hostages or at least alerted the others that there was a problem. They also could have had a quick reaction SOP developed prior to this incident. That Quick Reaction (QR) force could have followed the kidnappers back to our vehicles and set up an ambush of their own. Rural retreat security is a full time job. If you snooze you may lose everything. 4. Fire and Maneuver I don�t like this option but sometimes the prize is just too tempting. We typically infiltrate quietly at night to prearranged start points. We begin our attack just before dawn when your senses are dulled by a long night watch or from sleep. Based on our reconnaissance we divided your retreat into positions or zones that need specific attention. We prepare for battle by using an air rifle to target any lights or cameras. Our first priority is to engage any LP/OP site and destroy or degrade them as much as possible. I split my forces into two supporting groups. One group keeps the target position under constant fire. The other group also fires and maneuvers, closing on the target and destroying it with gunfire or improvised weapons. Many times these positions only have one occupant and the task is relatively easy. Often these positions are easy to spot and are too far from each other to provide any effective mutual support. We will work from one position to the next. In the darkness and confusion most of the defenders are disoriented and ineffective. They fall like dominos. We have also used motorcycles to negotiate obstacles and speed through cuts in the perimeter fence. Then throw Molotov Cocktails into any defensive position as they roar past. If you fall back into your residence we will set up a siege. If we can maneuver close enough, perhaps by using a distraction, we will pump concentrated insecticide into your building or we may introduce LP gas from a portable tank into the house and ignite it with tracer fire. If there was enough warning time from your OP you could execute a pre-planned response. Your planned response should be simple, easy to understand and execute. Half your group occupies your fighting positions, two to a position. The rest of your party establishes an over watch and concentrate its fire at the enemies trying to fix your positions. If you had more than enough prepared positions the enemy might not know where to attack. It would also provide more flexibility in your defense based on the direction of attack. I would use Night Vision if available or illumination from flares or lights as a last resort. Rats hate light. Usually people keep main access points blocked from high-speed approach. Likely avenues of approach should also be blocked or choked and kept under observation. Remember though what keeps me out keeps you in. Typically the common techniques of parking vehicles in roadways will only delay my approach not stop it altogether. An ordinary 12-gauge shotgun, shooting slugs, can stop most types of non-military vehicles at close range. Don�t forget the threat of fire or other non-traditional weapons in your defensive plans. You could create the illusion of a �dead end� for your main access road by positioning a burned out trailer home or a couple of burned out cars at the false �end� of the road. Concealing the fact that the road actually continues to your residence. Lastly, develop a plan to evacuate and evade capture. When faced with a significantly superior force it may be the only viable option. This should include simple, reliable communications or signals such as three blasts on a dog whistle. Your fighting positions and barriers need to be constructed to allow coordinated withdrawal in an emergency. You should establish a rally point and time limit to assemble. I believe this should be a priority in your practice drills. During a real emergency you may be able to rally, rearm and plan your own version of the �snipe and siege� to retake your retreat. Key messages: Your rural retreat defense can be visualized as a set of concentric rings: * Location � Location � Location: High and remote are best * OPSEC � Think of it as a form of armor or shield: Practice it and protect it. * Observation Post / Listening Post: Your first best chance to counter attack * Gates / Fences / other barriers: May slow me down. Might keep you in. * Fighting positions: Must provide mutual support and allow for evacuation. * Residence: Last line. Don�t become trapped * People, Planning and Practice Remember: * An aggressive and unexpected counter strike can win the battle. * Stay alert for multiple threats or diversionary tactics. * Criminals excel at feigning weakness to lower your guard. Don�t underestimate me. Reading for further study: The Defence of Duffer's Drift, by Major General Sir Ernest Dunlop Swinton (1905) US Army FM 5-15 Field Fortifications US Army FM 5-103 Survivability

Twisted Avatar | 10-31-2009 07:03 AM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare This is might plausible against the solitary compound. This would not be successful against the small to decent sized well armed community. T

gypsybiker45 | 10-31-2009 08:06 AM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Ive always been a big proponent of forming "special " units in your community to deal with these vultures.One successful operation we did learn in Vietnam was the "SOG" units, these guys would simply go out and search and destroy VC units.BEFORE they could launch attacks. our prep community has one of these units now.In the event of a total collapse,having a unit like this creates a reputation for your group that a potential group of vultures would prefer a diet of ground glass than bother you.

Haltiat | 10-31-2009 08:50 AM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare LOL. 6 months? Predator and prey will be all used up by then. That wily pack of banditos will be on its last legs, even accounting for replacements. They can't afford to take a single injury but they will have many just from trying to feed off sheep. When they get down to the rams and billygoats they'll be wiped out. Mr. Basic Military Training will also learn really quick that he is not the warrior he thinks he is once he's unplugged from the machine he was taught to be a part of. His relevant skills are only sufficient to give him an edge over the most unprepared. Even untrained, inexperienced grandmas with revolvers can score solid hits on entry teams when no-knocks get served to the wrong address.

ShortJohnSilver | 10-31-2009 10:04 AM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare This seems a little too fear-mongering. How many of the survivalists will have grown up in the woods, been deer-hunting, etc. while the "basic military training" guy has to learn on the fly how to move stealthily through the woods?

sindgefallen | 10-31-2009 12:22 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare What this a-hole yahoo writes is true...............but.... As has already been said the "basic military training" and learning on the fly by using FM's is VERY risky and follhardy. What this joker does not consider is a man like me. I am a PROFESSIONAL Infantry Soldier. A professional Non Comissioned Officer who has extensive Field and Field Combat experience. HIGHLY SKILLED and HIGHLY MOTIVATED. Educated and Intelligent. I am not the best, nor infallible nor am I invincible BUT........... I am your enemy and you WILL FAIL. I will kill you and if your threat is discovered pre-initiation. I will hunt you and kill you but not before I kill the one's that you depend on or depend on you. This is what this joker fails to add is that there are many like me and many non military like me. We can be better prepared and protected than you might think.

Gold Rules | 10-31-2009 12:46 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by sindgefallen (Post 2000394) What this a-hole yahoo writes is true...............but.... As has already been said the "basic military training" and learning on the fly by using FM's is VERY risky and follhardy. What this joker does not consider is a man like me. I am a PROFESSIONAL Infantry Soldier. A professional Non Comissioned Officer who has extensive Field and Field Combat experience. HIGHLY SKILLED and HIGHLY MOTIVATED. Educated and Intelligent. I am not the best, nor infallible nor am I invincible BUT........... I am your enemy and you WILL FAIL. I will kill you and if your threat is discovered pre-initiation. I will hunt you and kill you but not before I kill the one's that you depend on or depend on you. This is what this joker fails to add is that there are many like me and many non military like me. We can be better prepared and protected than you might think.
Thanks for writing what i was thinking.......:ok:....some of us specialized in hunting special .....a.......game....& more than likely we will find outfits like that before they find us.......only this time WE have home field advantage

sindgefallen | 10-31-2009 01:49 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare I wish that I lived in a rural area but I am surrounded by state workers and despite somne being close friends they are also cops and prison officials. No chance of a survival group yet. But I like where this is going. Organization is key.

SilverCity | 10-31-2009 02:10 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Seems to me that the efficacy of any band of looters, no matter how well-trained they are, would depend on their ability to resupply...ammo, weaponry, fuel, medical supplies and services, food, water, sleep, etc. How could they guarantee they wouldn't eventually succumb to their wounds, malnutrition, dehydration, starvation, disease, exposure to the elements, or a rival band of looters? One bad firefight could effectively wipe them out.

sindgefallen | 10-31-2009 02:21 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Seems to me that the efficacy of any band of looters, no matter how well-trained they are, would depend on their ability to resupply...ammo, weaponry, fuel, medical supplies and services, food, water, sleep, etc. How could they guarantee they wouldn't eventually succumb to their wounds, malnutrition, dehydration, starvation, disease, exposure to the elements, a rival band of looters? One bad firefight could effectively wipe them out.
There are many variables in life but the answer you seek is fairly obvious and lies inside your own question. Simple guerilla tactics that have stood the test of time. Resupply from your victims. If you need something take it from your enemy. Hit and run tactics. Re-supply on the move. Look at your enemies strengths for advantages.

SilverCity | 10-31-2009 02:50 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare At least until they "reap what they have sown". You sound like a machine with no humanity, no conscience. Your rationalist view is extremely short-term, IMO. How long will any of us survive in an extended state of anarchy, when food and everything else runs out with NO RESUPPLY. No food, no victims, no hope. How long before stress kills you?

morganchaser | 10-31-2009 03:04 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Should hand that out at gun shows. I hear ammo sales are dwindling. I love how he fails to suggest a much simpler solution: landmines. Set a field on fire, dig trenches, surround the area with landmines. Grow all your food a bunker in layers of hydropponics. The entire article is based on strawman assumptions, and the "advice" is intended to sell survival gear. The reality is: dig in so deep and hard that nobody will bother wasting resources coming after you when. What's such a boogeyman going to do with multiple generators? Sell them? Make a really big fort and put a "no girls allowed" sign out front? If he's mobile he has no use for a big fort, and if he's planning on selling them: he's going to spend more on ammo/life than he'll get out of them, when every lawnmower in the country has been coupled with a cars alternator. Nevermind that if there's a functioning economy: such a person would get hunted down like a dog and publically tortured/executed. Gang members aren't half as smart as they think they are. If he's not after the generators: what's he after? The grow lights? The food? People will quickly realize that "we do not negotiate with terrorists" has applications outside of hollywood and they'll line anything of value with explosives so that in such a shootout fantasy: the spoils of war are nothing. All the more reason to relocate to the nearest military base in the event of SHTF anyway. There would be refuge camps that would be safer than trying to Swiss Family Robinson for shits and giggles. If we're talking fallout 3: I pity anyone with a family. :4_8_4v:

sindgefallen | 10-31-2009 03:10 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
At least until they "reap what they have sown". You sound like a machine with no humanity, no conscience. Your rationalist view is extremely short-term, IMO. How long will any of us survive in an extended state of anarchy, when food and everything else runs out with NO RESUPPLY. No food, no victims, no hope. How long before stress kills you?
I'm sorry if that is your impression of me. I agree with you on long term survival as most here would attest in agreement with you. But survival is a short term moment by moment, day to day activity in a bad environment. We all cannot just give up in a shtf scenario. Long term will have to wait. All we can do is plan and labor for our survival long and short term. Murphy's law. Nobody said that living in a post collapse environment would be easy. Nor would it be easy to restore order. But people cannot just hope for the best and take no actions for survival or defense for that matter. Dealing will enraged lunatic gangs is nothing new in this country. As for your comment on re-supply I perhaps don't understand your point. My reference was not to re-supply from your local market AND by no means did I mean readily available, processed or fresh, food. I mean whatever you can use to sustain yourself and that encompasses MANY things.

hypervel | 10-31-2009 04:24 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Roving bands? Maybe of military, like UN peeps. A semi organized team doesn't need to wait for some far off SHTF scenario to make quality hits. As long as they're tied to "no witnesses" they can do their terror hits starting today. The only difference would be that today's targets/victims need simply be of high value. Terror today for their own better tomorrow. The only rationale for waiting for SHTF would be a lack of active LE. C'mon. Hit the LE targets first if'n yer so badass! Bullshit through and through. Fantasy time. Pure fluff. Social breakdown = armed military (internationally sourced) in the streets to keep order. As long as the troops are really keeping peace, you and yours will end up happy to have them around just so you don't have to live like animals-constantly on watch for the next ACTIVE threat vector. Paranoia sucks.....the active kind.....where you're really afraid of something bad likely to happen.

DuneLurkin | 10-31-2009 06:08 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 2000542) Seems to me that the efficacy of any band of looters, no matter how well-trained they are, would depend on their ability to resupply...ammo, weaponry, fuel, medical supplies and services, food, water, sleep, etc. How could they guarantee they wouldn't eventually succumb to their wounds, malnutrition, dehydration, starvation, disease, exposure to the elements, or a rival band of looters? One bad firefight could effectively wipe them out.
And the same holds for the good guys holding out against the bad guys.

Haltiat | 10-31-2009 06:31 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare The difference is frequency of exposure. The human locusts will have to engage in firefights frequently to steal what they need since they produce nothing and most Americans own guns. Every engagement, even against the sheep, is likely to produce at least one wounded bandito. There are a probably a few soldiers and hunters here that can tell you what a gunshot wound looks like and probably an EMT or two who can tell you what you have to do to care for that wound. Even a flesh wound whose bleeding is quickly controlled will probably turn debilitating or lethal over the next month for a rover. Let's not forget that the kind of people who will prey on others have an inherently selfish orientation, they are less likely to provide the best care they can. It isn't a viable lifestyle. Not on this continent anyway. My biggest objection to the "article" is it's mostly a fantasy piece and its essential scenario is flawed. Don't get me wrong, the first few months of a total collapse would be absolute hell as all the idiots try to cannibalize each other but they'll burn off quite quickly. After that "bandito" will no longer be a viable career path because there will be no police left to protect the banditos from the wrath of the survivalist communities. The only reason we even have street gangs today is because anybody who would eliminate them would also have to fight law enforcement and they're not willing to do that. When law enforcement goes away the gloves come off and the bad guys lose because there are more good guys and the good guys are better at violence.

DuneLurkin | 10-31-2009 06:55 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2000852) After that "bandito" will no longer be a viable career path because there will be no police left to protect the banditos from the wrath of the survivalist communities. The only reason we even have street gangs today is because anybody who would eliminate them would also have to fight law enforcement and they're not willing to do that. When law enforcement goes away the gloves come off and the bad guys lose because there are more good guys and the good guys are better at violence.
I agree with you on this aspect. But we'd need to be careful that we don't raise our own gangs in their place. Community members that band together but get misdirected and start engaging in activity deemed "good for the community". e.g charging a toll to passthrough, protection rackets, taking from well stocked community members and giving to the less well-off. Mob rule is a danger in times like that.

Haltiat | 10-31-2009 06:58 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by DuneLurkin (Post 2000885) I agree with you on this aspect. But we'd need to be careful that we don't raise our own gangs in their place. Community members that band together but get misdirected and start engaging in activity deemed "good for the community". e.g charging a toll to passthrough, protection rackets, taking from well stocked community members and giving to the less well-off. Mob rule is a danger in times like that.
Yes, people like that would be a potential problem but I don't expect they would have a very high survival rate. Most of those guys are the kind of people who will die off in the first few months.

MaxGravy | 10-31-2009 07:08 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare I see a few problems with the OP, but it's a wake up call to someone a bit naive about such things.

DuneLurkin | 10-31-2009 07:23 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2000892) Yes, people like that would be a potential problem but I don't expect they would have a very high survival rate. Most of those guys are the kind of people who will die off in the first few months.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Once the prepper realizes his food is gone or that his crop has failed and he hasn't connected to the community he will turn to crime. I'm just saying that when one threat disappears another will rise in its place. Don't plan on the bad guys being starved off after six months as that won't happen.

scyth | 10-31-2009 07:35 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Ummm - As far as a sledgehammer reality sandwich as regards This whole thread, anybody been following Afghanistan/Pakistan For the last couple decades, Or for that matter, the last three hundred years? scyth

DuneLurkin | 10-31-2009 07:44 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by scyth (Post 2000935) Ummm - As far as a sledgehammer reality sandwich as regards This whole thread, anybody been following Afghanistan/Pakistan For the last couple decades, Or for that matter, the last three hundred years? scyth
Another forum I hang out at has a guy in Iraq that showed up on the scene after the big bombing a few days ago. Said that after the blast people rushed in and started stripping the dead and wounded of valuables. Picked them clean before rescue teams arrived. Won't hear that on the news.

Agfinger | 11-01-2009 05:26 AM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare This guy is your classic mall ninja...

ShortJohnSilver | 11-01-2009 10:39 AM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Thing is, the guy is making an assumption that prior murders have no bearing on future behavior. Even with a near-complete destruction of communication ability, the info about the murders will get around and ANYONE not part of the community will be questioned in-depth as to where they are from, where they are going, how they got the food they have, will have to lay down their arms, etc.

Dave Thomas | 11-19-2009 08:34 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare After reading this, I figured the guy writing this possibly has enough acumen to start his own little colony. I mean why continue to put yourself in harms way by constantly confronting unknown situations? Sure he details all of the "Textbook" cases but eventually you're number is up. That kid with the deer rifle is going to get you. Continually putting yourself at risk in this fashion is assinine. How many stories have you read of a Pirate gang or mob syndicate where everyone dies of old age? It's like saying a war of attrition is sustainable as long as these scenarios go completely to plan each and every time. No mention about how his leadership is structured. What happens when Slasher wants to run a crew a bit more wantonly? Potsie want's a little bit more of the take because he earned it? People who go around killing with no compunction tend to attract the type of degenerates who have little empathetic skills. And that spells trouble for the group of raiders. Hollywood is practically the only place in the universe this kind of thing works out. You know, the criminally insane leader, with no regard to life or anything blows away his right hand man just because he was slighted in some fashion. Anywhere close to reality, that guy would have been left floating face down in a muddy ditch three scenes ago. It's unsustainable for this guy, because he just always assumes that everything will go just swimmingly, none of his team will ever die, and there will never be any contention within his own group in regard to how it's run. This is survivalist porn. Oh but he's got a bearcat scanner!

wallew | 11-19-2009 11:05 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Thomas (Post 2034630) After reading this, I figured the guy writing this possibly has enough acumen to start his own little colony. I mean why continue to put yourself in harms way by constantly confronting unknown situations? Sure he details all of the "Textbook" cases but eventually you're number is up. That kid with the deer rifle is going to get you. Continually putting yourself at risk in this fashion is assinine. How many stories have you read of a Pirate gang or mob syndicate where everyone dies of old age? It's like saying a war of attrition is sustainable as long as these scenarios go completely to plan each and every time. No mention about how his leadership is structured. What happens when Slasher wants to run a crew a bit more wantonly? Potsie want's a little bit more of the take because he earned it? People who go around killing with no compunction tend to attract the type of degenerates who have little empathetic skills. And that spells trouble for the group of raiders. Hollywood is practically the only place in the universe this kind of thing works out. You know, the criminally insane leader, with no regard to life or anything blows away his right hand man just because he was slighted in some fashion. Anywhere close to reality, that guy would have been left floating face down in a muddy ditch three scenes ago. It's unsustainable for this guy, because he just always assumes that everything will go just swimmingly, none of his team will ever die, and there will never be any contention within his own group in regard to how it's run. This is survivalist porn. Oh but he's got a bearcat scanner!
He says specifically: I have conducted eight �hits� so far and have been successful seven times. Here are some of my �lessons learned�. Hello. MORE LIKE he's conducted eight hits and ONE has been successful. REALLY full of himself. What happens when this 'semi-miltary' guy runs into a well run group of retired special forces guys? HE AND HIS GROUP ARE DEAD. They will NEVER see the claymores that kill all of his little band of "6 - 8" and him. If they are lucky. Because this group of spec for guys won't be making all his listed mistakes. UNLESS they are trying to draw guys like this in. Then I wouldn't want to be any of the guys that live through with the reverse ambush they just survived, they will then be requested to give up any information they have. just say...

mick silver | 11-19-2009 11:29 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare most guys in the country could care less about some rat ass guys coming out the the citys to take anything from them , there alot of guys that know what to do in the woods and they know there area good . like i said i know alot of theys guys and it some thing the guys from the city will be thinking about . there alot of places in them woods a man can never be seen again . and lets not forget that most of those men in the country also have military training and they play the game also

S_Goldberg | 11-19-2009 11:33 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
I have conducted eight “hits” so far and have been successful seven times. Here are some of my “lessons learned”. Hello. MORE LIKE he's conducted eight hits and ONE has been successful. REALLY full of himself. What happens when this 'semi-miltary' guy runs into a well run group of retired special forces guys? HE AND HIS GROUP ARE DEAD. They will NEVER see the claymores that kill all of his little band of "6 - 8" and him. If they are lucky. Because this group of spec for guys won't be making all his listed mistakes. UNLESS they are trying to draw guys like this in. Then I wouldn't want to be any of the guys that live through with the reverse ambush they just survived, they will then be requested to give up any information they have. just say...
You do realize this is fiction, right? And claymores? Are you serious? I'll let you in on a little secret, claymores aren't just running around willy nilly. I suggest you stop reading survivalist wet dreams like most of the fecal matter posted on the survivalblog and try to look at reality.

scyth | 11-19-2009 11:48 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare This is a thread with neither A beginning nor an end. Crypto TEOTWAWKI Strategy as we know it Is just pure moonshine. I say kill it. scyth

Old Steel | 11-20-2009 12:59 AM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Plant a few IED's like this around your retreat. Be very careful so as to NOT activate one of them when coming or going. :biggrin: You Tube
You Tube

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Orion | 11-20-2009 03:41 AM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare 500-1000# ANFO. Looks like it went off immediately when the trigger detected motion. Guys across the street on the right died of over-pressure immediately. Damage localized to ~100yds diameter, tops. Only hacks would set that charge up that way. Wonder where a couple hacks got 500# of ANFO and time to set it up? Waste of perfectly good explosives.

morganchaser | 11-20-2009 03:45 AM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by S_Goldberg (Post 2034963) You do realize this is fiction, right? And claymores? Are you serious? I'll let you in on a little secret, claymores aren't just running around willy nilly. I suggest you stop reading survivalist wet dreams like most of the fecal matter posted on the survivalblog and try to look at reality.
hxxp://www.vitacost.com/Coghlans-Fuel-Tablets?csrc=GPF-056389095656 hxxp://www.agrisupply.com/product.asp?pn=27784 hxxp://www.directchemist.com/care--hydrogen-peroxide-6-20-vols_1_5555.html hxxp://www.first-aid-product.com/industrial/instant-cold-compresses.htm hxxp://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=204211&catid=9703&aid=337953&aparam=s upernail_pure_acetone_&CAWELAID=253643578 hxxp://www.amazon.com/Pyramid-Bicycle-Loose-Ball-Bearings/dp/B0012LKYWU http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexamet...roxide_diamine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide hxxp://www.preterhuman.net/texts/underground/paraZite.org.2006.10.13/eawf-hmtd_synth_with_pics.htm I don't think I need to do a google shopping search for "pound cake pan" do I? What the hell: hxxp://www.amazon.com/Norpro-Inch-Nonstick-Bread-Pan/dp/B000SSV61G

Walter Mitty | 11-20-2009 09:04 AM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare The man who wrote that is not some "Yahoo". He is ex-military and one of "Us". He wrote it as a training exercise to get people to think about security in a SHTF situation. I for one am grateful for his observations.

teedub31 | 11-20-2009 01:18 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by sindgefallen (Post 2000394) What this a-hole yahoo writes is true...............but.... As has already been said the "basic military training" and learning on the fly by using FM's is VERY risky and follhardy. What this joker does not consider is a man like me. I am a PROFESSIONAL Infantry Soldier. A professional Non Comissioned Officer who has extensive Field and Field Combat experience. HIGHLY SKILLED and HIGHLY MOTIVATED. Educated and Intelligent. I am not the best, nor infallible nor am I invincible BUT........... I am your enemy and you WILL FAIL. I will kill you and if your threat is discovered pre-initiation. I will hunt you and kill you but not before I kill the one's that you depend on or depend on you. This is what this joker fails to add is that there are many like me and many non military like me. We can be better prepared and protected than you might think.
Not to be taken personal, but arrogance in one skills and abilities on the side of either predaror or prey will most likely end badly for he who thinks he is king badass.

teedub31 | 11-20-2009 01:22 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Mitty (Post 2035382) The man who wrote that is not some "Yahoo". He is ex-military and one of "Us". He wrote it as a training exercise to get people to think about security in a SHTF situation. I for one am grateful for his observations.
I am glad that I wasn't the only one that picked up on his writting style. Maybe he should have used the :sarcasm: or :sarc: that many members on this board rely on to avoid getting their panties all bound up! :wink:

S_Goldberg | 11-20-2009 01:24 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 2035190) hxxp://www.vitacost.com/Coghlans-Fuel-Tablets?csrc=GPF-056389095656 hxxp://www.agrisupply.com/product.asp?pn=27784 hxxp://www.directchemist.com/care--hydrogen-peroxide-6-20-vols_1_5555.html hxxp://www.first-aid-product.com/industrial/instant-cold-compresses.htm hxxp://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=204211&catid=9703&aid=337953&aparam=s upernail_pure_acetone_&CAWELAID=253643578 hxxp://www.amazon.com/Pyramid-Bicycle-Loose-Ball-Bearings/dp/B0012LKYWU http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexamet...roxide_diamine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide hxxp://www.preterhuman.net/texts/underground/paraZite.org.2006.10.13/eawf-hmtd_synth_with_pics.htm I don't think I need to do a google shopping search for "pound cake pan" do I? What the hell: hxxp://www.amazon.com/Norpro-Inch-Nonstick-Bread-Pan/dp/B000SSV61G
Do you have an extensive knowledge of chemistry? Even if you do, playing with explosives will get you eventually. You won't have to worry about looters, you will take care of yourself for them. Particularly if you are following Internet postings.

ThomasJ1776 | 11-20-2009 01:41 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare I dont believe in situations like this. At all. I do believe we are headed for a meltdown for sure. Many will die, starve, kill and be killed. But to think there will be total lawlessness is asinine. As long as there is any remnant of our so called "government", or the UN, or the Rothschild controlled empire, there will never be a mad max type scenario. There has been too much money, time, and effort spent by TPTB in being able to watch, study, control, deceive, lie to, and manipulate us to ever let this happen. I'm not syaing there will be troops or guards on every corner, but their control will not be lost to a degree that many think. There will be roving bands of a few people terrorizing neighborhoods, and pulling off small time hits, but if that band gets too big, or too powerful, or too well known, they will be dealt with for sure. There will never be any force big enough to survive long-term violence and battle unless that force is specifically determined to fight out TPTB and their minions, down from the street cops, all the way up to our troops, the UN, or International "Peacekeepers". TPTB use fear to control, they will not let the sheeple fear anyone more than them. It will start out where they first hire, train and utilize gangs and roving bands, to first help quell any communities holding out on their own, but once those gangs and others do the dirty work and have earned a big reputation, who will come in and save the day against them? TPTB of course! And all those communities or people will understand who it is they are to respect. If not by sheer love and belief of the propaganda that the government is here for them, then it will be utter shock and fear once they see, hear, and experience what the TPTB can do. Like I said, the only ones who will fight long term and survive the "all seeing eye" of the TPTB are those fighting it directly.

ThomasJ1776 | 11-20-2009 01:44 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Meant to say the only way I think I'm wrong is if there is nuclear exchange, A "Fallout" experience so to speak, and in that case something like this is possible where the is no government or power from anyone on any "official" level. But even in Fallout the U.S. government is still alive and kicking unfortunately.

Russkie | 11-20-2009 02:23 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare The OP is interesting, but I don't believe it is the primary threat.... Such mauradung will be amateurish in the beginning, and relatively short term until some semblance of local order is restored. I believe the REAL threat will be from corrupt government forces. Living in Russia, it is common to be afraid of the Police more than anyone else. If there are NATO or UN patrols, abuses from these sources would be my biggest concern. Hungry, horny young foreigners with a bad attitude towards the local population. You can't fight a whole unit of well-armed people moving about with heavy firepower and governmet sanction- unless you go Taliban on them. It's a completely different type of resistance. I don't really believe in the lone compound scenario unless we have massive depopluation and a complete breakdown of society.

morganchaser | 11-20-2009 02:49 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by S_Goldberg (Post 2035742) Do you have an extensive knowledge of chemistry? Even if you do, playing with explosives will get you eventually. You won't have to worry about looters, you will take care of yourself for them. Particularly if you are following Internet postings.
The only time I would ever attempt to make explosives is if we crossed a point where the law gave me permission: when I feel my life/the life of others is at greater risk from the lack of access to explosives than I expose myself/others to in process of making them. Doctrine of the lesser of two evils.

renegade_01 | 11-20-2009 03:35 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Steel (Post 2035078) Plant a few IED's like this around your retreat. Be very careful so as to NOT activate one of them when coming or going. :biggrin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06y7QMfqPtc
EXACTLY. I'll have my keyFOB in hand when and if some f*ckers try to raid my shit.

momopanda | 11-20-2009 03:53 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Reading the OP all I can think of is a nature show. Camera follows the coyote as it stalks the groundhog. Camera is intent on the coyote and his prey. Closing in, doing recon, setting the trap, preparing to strike and.... wham! cougar comes out of nowhere and puts the coyote out of its misery. In the real world predator often becomes prey in the blink of an eye, and this guy sounds so cocksure of his little band of ninjas, that I wonder if they themselves'd make it past the initial onslaught of gangbangers, meth-heads, and gooberstooges-gone-warlord. Still, the message is a good one I guess.

Twisted Avatar | 11-20-2009 03:58 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2000852) The difference is frequency of exposure. The human locusts will have to engage in firefights frequently to steal what they need since they produce nothing and most Americans own guns. Every engagement, even against the sheep, is likely to produce at least one wounded bandito. There are a probably a few soldiers and hunters here that can tell you what a gunshot wound looks like and probably an EMT or two who can tell you what you have to do to care for that wound. Even a flesh wound whose bleeding is quickly controlled will probably turn debilitating or lethal over the next month for a rover. Let's not forget that the kind of people who will prey on others have an inherently selfish orientation, they are less likely to provide the best care they can. It isn't a viable lifestyle. Not on this continent anyway. My biggest objection to the "article" is it's mostly a fantasy piece and its essential scenario is flawed. Don't get me wrong, the first few months of a total collapse would be absolute hell as all the idiots try to cannibalize each other but they'll burn off quite quickly. After that "bandito" will no longer be a viable career path because there will be no police left to protect the banditos from the wrath of the survivalist communities. The only reason we even have street gangs today is because anybody who would eliminate them would also have to fight law enforcement and they're not willing to do that. When law enforcement goes away the gloves come off and the bad guys lose because there are more good guys and the good guys are better at violence.
CRIMINALS CAN NOT EXIST WITHOUT LAW ENFORCEMENT THINK ABOUT THAT. T

wallew | 11-20-2009 04:55 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by S_Goldberg (Post 2034963) You do realize this is fiction, right? And claymores? Are you serious? I'll let you in on a little secret, claymores aren't just running around willy nilly. I suggest you stop reading survivalist wet dreams like most of the fecal matter posted on the survivalblog and try to look at reality.
I'll let YOU in on a little secret, as you obviously don't know any REAL operators. Do you actually think if a Spec Op team 'checks out' ten claymores and fifty pounds of semtex for 'training' do you ACTUALLY think all those thing get blown up? You ACTUALLY think that NONE of those have found their way off base in the back of someone's backpack or car? PLEASE. A little naivete is a good thing. Sheer ignorance, not so much. And yeah, there are TONS of claymores and semtex and machine guns and all sorts of OTHER miltary stuff that is no longer on the books of the military having been marked as 'destroyed'. Can you tell the difference that a hole made by ten pounds of semtex makes. VS say eight pounds of semtex? I can't. I doubt most other folks, including those few whose MOS is EOD can either. As was once said, 'a hole is a hole is a hole'. Whether is was eight pounds or ten of semtex, IT'S STILL A LARGE HOLE. Or destroyed stuff. I always remember in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, they are robbing a train. And they have to blow the safe. Sundance asks Butch if he used enough dynamite. Butch says sure. Right about that time the box car holding the safe explodes with splinters of wood going everywhere. SO, did he use eight sticks of dyanamite? OR TEN? See what I'm trying to explain to you here? And this doesn't even COVER all the way kewl links posted ABOUT explosives that Morganchaser listed. Oh, and I'm not the one handling explosives normally (though I have and still could) but I generally leave that to those who are considered the professionals. That would be EOD guys. Yeah, I DO know several of them. And boy, I do love things that go BOOM. That's why my SECOND degree is in gunsmithing. I hear there is an explosives ordinance vocational degree you can earn from the U of NM. I can't say for sure, but I've started my search. I'll let you know.

Orion | 11-21-2009 03:21 AM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare EMRTC @ NMT.edu

morganchaser | 11-21-2009 03:35 AM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion (Post 2037014) EMRTC @ NMT.edu
If this confuses other people like it did me: he's referencing the following: hxxp://www.emrtc.nmt.edu/

Thucydides | 12-01-2009 02:40 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare I expect there'll be those who take up this mindset in a SHTF situation, just like there are criminals in the current situation. Gengis Khan got away with it for a while because he had an entire nation of looters. But the problem with that model is that the parasite which kills the host can't survive. So, on a smaller scale, the "host" fights back -- in the old West, folks formed posses. "String 'em up, boys," that's what I'd say.

Unclad Lad | 12-02-2009 04:14 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare While our country's state governments are not as independent as they were under the original Constitution (although there is a growing states rights movement), a nationwide enactment of marshal law will be enforced and observed differently based on locale; Los Angeles will be handled very differently than Billings. But rural Northern California will be very different than LA too. While New York City will be heavily patrolled I can't imagine Idaho law enforcement doing much more than officially acknowledging the orders. Given the number of US soldiers who have stated their support for the Constitution vs lesser laws of the land and temporal orders, the sheer size of the CONUS, and the "rifles behind every blade of grass", I have trouble picturing marshal law lasting more than a few weeks, and even that with quite a bit of resistance.

Publico, Pro Se | 12-02-2009 04:52 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 2036016) CRIMINALS CAN NOT EXIST WITHOUT LAW ENFORCEMENT THINK ABOUT THAT. T
So ... a person who's killed without just cause isn't a murder victim. A woman who does not want to have intercourse isn't raped. And the stuff you possessed yesterday wasn't stolen today.

FunnyMoney | 12-02-2009 07:06 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat (Post 2000852) The difference is frequency of exposure. The human locusts will have to engage in firefights frequently to steal what they need since they produce nothing and most Americans own guns. .... . When law enforcement goes away the gloves come off and the bad guys lose because there are more good guys and the good guys are better at violence.
The whole post a good one, but this difference is one that everyone knows. Everyone, even TPTB know this difference. This is the problem with the great USA, it stands pretty much alone in that regard. Take a look... Most of the world against the 2nd amendment The story seems a crude attempt at a wake-up call and the elephant ignored is that it fails to address how the govt/military will behave through the initial stages. Do they just vanish? But even then, the wake up call seems only to apply to everywhere outside the USA (see gun issue above),... Inside the USA, expect it to be much worse, TPTB will have something "special" for the mainland or even possibly the entire north american continent. JMHO, just calling it the way I see it, don't blame the messenger, all opinions welcome

Argentsum | 12-02-2009 07:58 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare An interesting article. Though I would imagine that after a few bandit attacks the farmers would begin doing some patrols to discover the bandit's camp. Payback is a b*t(h. Nothing says "Welcome" like a few bandit skulls mounted on 7' t-post fencing.

____hoot____ | 12-02-2009 09:41 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare OP's little band is forgeting about something in a real SHTF situation. There will be a lot of ALFRED PACKER lone wolf types holed up in little hideouts just a looking for passerbyes like his merry band of know-it-alls to prey on for their next batch of smoked long pork jerky. Don't have to get in a big fire fight to get what AL wants from this band of "warriors". Just a 2-400 yard single shot from cover into one of these travelers, beat it and come back the next day for the snack; doesn't even have to be a killing shot as these "warriors" won't carry along or defend a wounded member.

S_Goldberg | 12-02-2009 10:00 PM
Re: Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 2036101) I'll let YOU in on a little secret, as you obviously don't know any REAL operators.
:cry1: Please stop. My sides hurt. I never claimed to know any "operators". Frankly I don't care who you know who claims to be one. I stand by my assertion that claymores are not readily available on the black market. Please cite documented cases or studies showing otherwise. Quote:
there will never be a mad max type scenario
I agree, but should we be wrong.......God help us all. Leather clad sadomasochist butt-pirate biker gangs are not something I wish to ever see.

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