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horseshoe3 | 03-03-2009 09:57 AM
Getting whole wheat bread to rise? Hi all, the title pretty much says it all. I'm looking for recipes and techniques to make light fluffy 100% whole wheat bread. The first few attempts were bricks. I've been able to get my later loaves light enough to eat, but they are still very crumbly. I can't use them for sandwiches because they disintegrate and leave me holding my meat in my bare hands.:111: Any advice?

UncaScrooge | 03-03-2009 11:34 AM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? Quote:
Originally Posted by horseshoe3 (Post 1604595) Hi all, the title pretty much says it all. I'm looking for recipes and techniques to make light fluffy 100% whole wheat bread. The first few attempts were bricks. I've been able to get my later loaves light enough to eat, but they are still very crumbly. I can't use them for sandwiches because they disintegrate and leave me holding my meat in my bare hands.:111: Any advice?
Adding some wheat gluten might probably help. The wheat gluten makes the dough "stickier' and allows more of the yeast bubbles to be trapped. I use it when I make rye bread... comes out fluffly and chewy. Maybe the wheat flour texture is similar to rye flour... and "cuts" the dough too much to let the bubbles get trapped. That's the best I can come up with.

Bob | 03-03-2009 11:51 AM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? Yeah, wheat gluten should fix your problems.

dupontcobb | 03-03-2009 11:51 AM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? I have had similar problems but now employ some techniques that make nice fluffy bread. Please note that this is for white bread so results may very with wheat. 1. When I add the yeast, I let it foam for 5 minutes. 2. I warm the oven to the lowest setting until I put in the dough. 3. I turn off the oven and I boil a pan full of water and put it in the oven with the dough. 4. When the water quites steaming, I reheat the water and put it back in the oven. 5. I keep doing this until the dough rises high enough. 6. When you shape your bread/rolls put them back in the oven with the water bath. I have found running a batch a water in the coffee maker sans coffee will heat the water faster than using a stove to heat the water. This process is similar to grocery store proofers. Good luck!

CrufflerJJ | 03-03-2009 12:56 PM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? Quote:
Originally Posted by horseshoe3 (Post 1604595) Hi all, the title pretty much says it all. I'm looking for recipes and techniques to make light fluffy 100% whole wheat bread. The first few attempts were bricks. I've been able to get my later loaves light enough to eat, but they are still very crumbly. I can't use them for sandwiches because they disintegrate and leave me holding my meat in my bare hands.:111: Any advice?
Here's a few (rambling) thoughts: - Try a mix of white bread flour & whole wheat. Start with a 1:1 mix, and adjust the whole wheat upwards as you have more success with your breads. - Gluten may help with the rise & texture, as others have suggested. - Consider using a "dough conditioner" or "dough enhancer" to help with the texture. There are some on Amazon, and the one I like is made by The Prepared Pantry. That one only requires ~1/2 - 1 teaspoon per loaf of bread, but some versions of conditioner require a higher level. Dough conditioner can also be obtained from King Arthur Flour/The Baker's Catalogue (their item# 1576), Walton Feed, or Honeyville Grain (in jumbo 50# bags). - Consider adding 1 - 2 teaspoons or so of granular lecithin (see your local health food store) early in the mix (along with any oil). This keeps things moist longer. - Proof your yeast before adding (add to warm water, along with some sugar/honey, mix, let sit ~10 minutes)

UncaScrooge | 03-03-2009 03:24 PM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? Here's ANOTHER thought-suggestion: add an egg or a splash of milk into your dough... the proteins will help "glue" things and make them chewier and less likely to crumble. The soy lecithin or oil suggestion likely will also help. P.S. Of course, if you add an egg, you bread will be Egg-bread-y :) But I personally like egg bread! :wink:

Zilver | 03-03-2009 03:30 PM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? 1 Attachment(s) this might work?bancha

Merlin | 03-03-2009 03:35 PM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? If you're grinding your own whole wheat flour, make sure it's finely ground. Nothing will kill a loaf of bread faster than coarsely ground flour. You could also try sifting the flour to remove the bran and leave it out of the loaf (unfortunately removing part of the nutritional value) or soaking the bran overnight so it won't be so hard and sharp. It is thought by some, and confirmed by my own experience, that the bran tends to cut the gluten strands and reduce their ability to trap the gases produced by the yeast that causes the bread to rise. I've actually had the experience of sealing the bowl of rising dough with a sheet of plastic wrap and finding that even though the dough itself didn't rise well, the plastic wrap was bubbled up very nicely, thank you, by all the gases that had escaped the dough.

silverblood | 03-03-2009 03:47 PM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? Knead the bread more and you'll get a better texture. More gluten would help, so mixing some high-gluten white bread flour in with the whole wheat will be helpful. It'll also help lighten the loaf. Pure whole wheat makes for a pretty dense bread. After kneading, let rise to double in bulk in an oiled bowl, then turn out onto a lightly floured board and very gently roll into a rectangle. Roll tightly, pinch the seams to seal, and put in an oiled loaf pan. Cover and let rise again. How you handle the dough between the first and second rise and how you form the loaf is critical to the final character of the loaf.

horseshoe3 | 03-03-2009 04:21 PM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? Thanks for the replies everyone. To clarify a few things, I have ground my own flour as fine as my mill would go. I haven't run a mesh test on it, so I'm not sure exactly how fine it is. It makes darn good pancakes and doughnuts, though. I'm trying to do this as healthfully as possible and also want to have the skills for if I HAVE to make my own bread from my own wheat sometime in the future. For these reasons I would like to find a solution that doesn't involve adding white flour or removing bran. Merlin - When you soak the bran, do you just add it back wet when you mix the flour and other ingredients? Also, how do you separate the bran? I've noticed some bran left in my sifter after sifting the flour, but I don't think that is nearly all of it. Silverblood - In some other research today, I saw that bit about rolling the loaf to form it. From you post it sounds as if you do not punch it down before forming the loaf, rather you roll it while it is still raised??? For those who recommended gluten. Is that the slimy stuff that vegetarians like to pretend is meat? Or is that something different?

silverblood | 03-03-2009 04:41 PM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? Quote:
Originally Posted by horseshoe3 (Post 1605308) Silverblood - In some other research today, I saw that bit about rolling the loaf to form it. From you post it sounds as if you do not punch it down before forming the loaf, rather you roll it while it is still raised???
I don't punch it down. Instead, I just turn it out on a floured board, smooth side (the top) down, and gently pull it into a rough square or rectangle, then roll it gently to flatten to just under an inch thick. This degasses the bread without the brutality. :smile: Then I verify that the smoothest side is down and tightly roll it into a log. Then pinch the seams closed along the bottom and on both ends, and put it in the bread pan. Gentleness is the key.

CrufflerJJ | 03-03-2009 06:10 PM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? Quote:
Originally Posted by horseshoe3 (Post 1605308) For those who recommended gluten. Is that the slimy stuff that vegetarians like to pretend is meat? Or is that something different?
No, the gluten used in baking is a nice dry powder - no slime at all. You're probably thinking about seitan, which is some sort of processed gluten. Wikipedia says that seitan "is made by washing wheat flour dough with water until all the starch dissolves, leaving insoluble gluten as a gummy mass, which is subject to further processing." Yumm, yumm, yumm!

UncaScrooge | 03-03-2009 06:15 PM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread: SLIMY STUFF??? Quote:
Originally Posted by horseshoe3 (Post 1605308) Thanks for the replies everyone. For those who recommended gluten. Is that the slimy stuff that vegetarians like to pretend is meat? Or is that something different?
YUCK! No... wheat gluten is derived from wheat itself! It's the part of the wheat that makes your dough sticky, and enables your dough to trap the yeast bubbles. As someone above posted... if the flour isn't finely ground enough, the rough grains will cut the dough enough to prevent enough bubbles being trapped in your loaf.

Merlin | 03-03-2009 06:41 PM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? Quote:
Originally Posted by horseshoe3 (Post 1605308) Merlin - When you soak the bran, do you just add it back wet when you mix the flour and other ingredients? Also, how do you separate the bran? I've noticed some bran left in my sifter after sifting the flour, but I don't think that is nearly all of it.
If the sifter doesn't catch it, it isn't gonna get caught. But I have noticed that removing what the sifter catches makes a difference. It also matters what kind of wheat berry you use. The hard white (Golden 86) berries that I have seem to have less bran than the red berries. You can either soak the bran separately, or you could just cover your dough after the first rise and keep it overnight in the refrigerator. Speaking of making sure the flour is adequately hydrated, have you tried making your dough a little wetter? If there isn't enough moisture in the dough it won't rise properly either. As for the dough being finely ground, I have a manual hand-cranked mill so sometimes I get lazy. But it does make a noticeable difference for me if I run the flour through the mill a second pass. Then, in the name of full disclosure and complete honesty, sometimes (like today) in spite of my best efforts I lay an egg... er, I mean a brick.

thrifty_bob | 03-11-2009 05:44 PM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? When I make bread I soak the cracked wheat in boiling water to soften it for about an hour till it cools. and then add the sugar and yeast starter mixture. To raise it, because I keep the thermostat at 68f in the house, I put the loaf pan in my huge skillet filled with hot tap water, set the skillet on a couple hotpads, and cover it all with a clean dishtowel, to get the loaf pan up to about 100f and keep it there by replacing the water every 30 or 40 min. I reuse the same yeast starter mix over and over, so its not as easy as it would usually be, but I don't have to keep buying yeast.

Gknowmx | 03-11-2009 08:16 PM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? older thread: http://goldismoney.info/forums/showt...ht=wheat+bread

scyth | 03-11-2009 08:25 PM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? Tassajara Bread Book. See link. http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalo...7062-089-X.cfm Mine is shredded and has 39 years of tape on it. One of these days I'm gonna have to get a new one. Enjoy scyth

RaccoonRiverRadical | 03-11-2009 08:30 PM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? If you are grinding your own be sure you are using the right kind of berry. For instance, if you are using soft white wheat berries your bread will come out crumbly. I learned the hard way. You need hard red spring wheat berries. Grinding your own is the only way to go imo. Store bought whole wheat lacks germ.

Saul Mine | 03-12-2009 03:59 AM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? Don't put salt in the water. Put it in the flour. I have no idea what that has to do with anything, but if you salt the water your bread will rise and then collapse and you will get a crumbly brick.

horseshoe3 | 03-12-2009 11:51 AM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? Quote:
Originally Posted by RaccoonRiverRadical (Post 1620333) If you are grinding your own be sure you are using the right kind of berry. For instance, if you are using soft white wheat berries your bread will come out crumbly. I learned the hard way. You need hard red spring wheat berries. Grinding your own is the only way to go imo. Store bought whole wheat lacks germ.
I'm using hard red winter. I know it is not the best for bread making, but that is what I raise on my farm and I was hoping to use what I've got to prepare for when it may be all I can get. A lot of good suggestions on this thread. I hope to try them all and find something that works.

hypervel | 03-12-2009 11:57 AM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? Take the FIRST rise! Hot water and red wheat flour beat the hell out of it and you'll get your gluten.

Cassandra | 03-12-2009 12:08 PM
Re: Getting whole wheat bread to rise? Gluten in bread can be increased naturally by using the "sponge method" of rising the water/milk+yeast+sugar+(optional) eggs as batter before you've added the flour. I learned this from the Tassajara book back in college, and it worked well then when I made 12-16 loaves at a time. I don't usually do it anymore, but it might be a good trick to have under your belt along with the other suggestions in this thread. Quote:
Advantages of the sponge method: the sponge method, omitted in most bread recipes, is advantageous in many ways. the yeast gets started easily in the absence of salt, which inhibits its functioning, and in the presence of plenty of oxygen. gluten is formed when the sponge stretches in rising, which would otherwise be the product of your labor in kneading. this added elasticity makes the remaining ingredients more easily incorporated and kneading more easily accomplished. Even a 10-15 minute rising at this point will facilitate the accomplishment of the remaining steps.
Basic technique can be used with any recipe, but here are the steps from: http://recipes.recipeland.com/recipe...d__Basic_27045 Quote:
6 cups water lukewarm 85-105 f 2 tablespoons yeast, active dry 1/2 cup honey or molasses 2 cups milk, skim, (non fat) powder 14 cups whole wheat flour 2 1/2 tablespoons salt 1/2 cup butter or oil Directions Combine water, yeast, and sweetening . Add milk If eggs are to be used, add now. Let sponge rise 30 - 40 minutes. Add WW flour (7 - 8 Cups), a cup at a time, Beat 100 times with spoon. Mixes in air and knead dough Set bowl in warm place 85 - 100 F and let it rise for an hour This rising lets the yeast get started without the salt. Gluten is formed too. Fold in salt, oil, another 6 - 8 C flour. Don't stir or cut Knead the dough. Let it rise another hour. Punch it down Let it rise 40 - 50 minutes. Shape into loaves. Let it rise another 15 - 25 minutes, Slit top and bake 350 for 50 -70 minutes

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