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Dymaxion42 | 05-08-2007 12:46 PM
Small Town or Really Rural? I think most agree that a city is not where you want to be in a serious SHTF scenario. But after that, which is really optimal -- a (really) small town, or being way out there on the country or woods on your own? On the one hand, I see the appeal of "really rural" from a self-sufficiency standpoint -- having your own well, land to grow food, supply of wood, livestock, etc. On the other hand, some of the folks who talk about this set-up then discuss the weapons they have to protect what they've set up, and I think to myself that if the S really HTF, I'd much rather be within shouting / running distance of some trusted friends and neighbors then way out on my own. Even well armed, you'd be hard-pressed to hold off a determined siege from an armed and hungry gang if there was not help in the immediate vicinity. Maybe a small town is better so that you can have your network of trusted and like-minded friends and neigbors ready for mutual defense? Dymaxion

Slimer | 05-08-2007 12:50 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Unless you "have a purty mouth" and know how to "squeal like a pig," a small town is better.

BAD BAMA | 05-08-2007 12:59 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Unless you establish yourself in that small town before tshtf you probly wont be welcome there . And reading your post on what you think about group think an isuses of race and you will probly fit in most small towns like a turd in the punch bowl . But i guess you could always tell them how anvanced you are when compared to them . Good luck .

Dymaxion42 | 05-08-2007 01:01 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Thanks for the constructive post, Bama. Dymaxion

Big_Rob | 05-08-2007 02:04 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Outskirts of a small town for the win.

elroy | 05-08-2007 02:15 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? I like the edge of a small town. This is exactly where I am. You may find it is a huge problem if you have to travel miles to a store though. Either as an economic issue or a security issue. I live on the edge of a town with a population of 600. 15 miles from a town of 16,000 and 60 miles from a city. With high cost gas right now it can become an issue for us. It is a 30 mile trip to Pizza Hut or Wal-mart. The nearest small grocery store is a 10 mile trip. You will be welcomed in a small town if you make yourself known and try to help when needed. Volunteer fire dept, church, coach baseball, offer to help neighbors etc. You'll find many well armed like minded folks in small towns. FerFal from Argentina wrote a post on this and mentioned how some people in isolated areas were at the mercy of roving gangs who would invade their homes and have their way with the entire family for days or weeks prior to leaving. Some victims survived, others did not. I have no illusions of being Rambo. Realistically if 8 armed thugs invade your home at 3am your chances are not very good. Even though I'm well armed I would welcome the help of neighbors. Most people here have been here their entire lives and many for generations.

keehah | 05-08-2007 02:17 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Quote:
Lovelock is fond of recounting how, on a recent lecture tour of America, he was accosted by earnest academics seeking advice on whereabouts in Canada they should buy their second homes.
From The Sunday Times May 6, 2007 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1751509.ece

Kahlil Gibran | 05-08-2007 02:21 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? 1 Attachment(s) Attachment 28105 We don't take too kindly to smartass flatlanders :9536: you boys gotta sister?

REV127 | 05-08-2007 02:25 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? What are your realistic abilities? This snippet, Quote:
On the other hand, some of the folks who talk about this set-up then discuss the weapons they have to protect what they've set up, and I think to myself that if the S really HTF, I'd much rather be within shouting / running distance of some trusted friends and neighbors then way out on my own. Even well armed, you'd be hard-pressed to hold off a determined siege from an armed and hungry gang if there was not help in the immediate vicinity.
tells me me you are not a skilled or experienced fighter. Unless you fix that you will have to rely on others for your security. Now you have to find a way to justify to a more able neighbor exactly why he should risk injury or death for you. That brings us to the next point. Quote:
On the one hand, I see the appeal of "really rural" from a self-sufficiency standpoint -- having your own well, land to grow food, supply of wood, livestock, etc.
To me this sounds like you don't have any experience in this area either. Just like how owning a gun can't and won't make you a warrior, owning some land can't and won't make you a farmer. You need to acquire the skills before you need them and while life is still easy, otherwise it doesn't matter where you go because you won't be very useful to yourself or anybody else. Without the skills you are a refugee. Fortunately the skills can be learned. So the real question here is what are you willing and able to learn and what can you do right now? In most areas with adequate water, a decent growing season and decent soil... and soil can be improved... you don't need too many acres to provide for your needs. If you're really serious and practice some intensive agriculture you can make 1 or even half an acre provide for yourself a couple others. 5 acres is better and I am doing well on 3.5 acres in a subtropical climate. You can find and often afford large enough lots inside or just outside even big cities that will do the job. That just leaves the famous "location, location, location." You'll want to check out the demographics of any area you're thinking about moving to. You'll want it to be by and large racially homogenous(your race, whatever it may be), you'll want it to be composed of young families who work in agriculture and the trades and you'll want to check the crime stats. You'll also want to check out the defensibility of the area. I can block off 1 road in two places and very few people will be able to reach me. You don't want to be too close to a major highway.

Dymaxion42 | 05-08-2007 02:51 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Some good points, Rev, and you certainly have much more experience in these topics than me, but I have to question this statement: Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 600306) tells me me you are not a skilled or experienced fighter
I don't care how experienced or skilled a fighter you are, how many guns you've got, and how good a marksman you are. Unless you are shoulder to shoulder with a number of others helping you out, you don't stand much of a chance against a determined group of hungry thugs. As Elroy said, Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy (Post 600298) I have no illusions of being Rambo. Realistically if 8 armed thugs invade your home at 3am your chances are not very good. Even though I'm well armed I would welcome the help of neighbors.
Dymaxion

Dymaxion42 | 05-08-2007 02:55 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Quote:
Originally Posted by bl96S5eu (Post 600320) What is your situation (now and next 10 years)? Married? Kids? Job/Business? Asking a single guy with no kids to answer that question for a guy with 4 younger kids is not a valid environment for the answer that fits you.
Certainly everyone's situation is different. To me personally, this topic has to fall in the "very long term planning" category. I live in one of the largest cities in the country with no plans to leave. If TSHTF soon, then I may regret it, but for now, this is home.

REV127 | 05-08-2007 06:16 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Quote:
Originally Posted by Dymaxion42 (Post 600334) Some good points, Rev, and you certainly have much more experience in these topics than me, but I have to question this statement: I don't care how experienced or skilled a fighter you are, how many guns you've got, and how good a marksman you are. Unless you are shoulder to shoulder with a number of others helping you out, you don't stand much of a chance against a determined group of hungry thugs. As Elroy said,
Quote:
I have no illusions of being Rambo. Realistically if 8 armed thugs invade your home at 3am your chances are not very good. Even though I'm well armed I would welcome the help of neighbors.
What the inexperienced and unprepared can do is not a good indication of what a skilled and prepared defender can do. Standing shoulder to shoulder with other inexperienced, unskilled defenders isn't exactly the height of martial power, either. It's good to have help if you can get good help but you'd be better served by practical skills and prepared defenses than hoping your untutored neighbors will form up line abreast to trade volleys with mutant zombie bikers. Rambo doesn't even factor in. You need to harden your perimeter and be alerted to an impending attack as far ahead of time as possible. By the time 8 thugs have just rushed through your front door(what, no barriers on the other side, no dog barking, no fence, etc etc?) your odds of survival have gone down considerably. The next logical question here is whether or not you have what it takes to turn a loose affiliation of random neighbors into a well regulated militia and lead them effectively in battle? Better yet, are your neighbors even suitable for that purpose?

REV127 | 05-08-2007 06:28 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Yup, just be careful about your company.

Dymaxion42 | 05-08-2007 11:38 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 600547) You need to harden your perimeter and be alerted to an impending attack as far ahead of time as possible.
What does it mean to harden the perimeter?

bl96S5eu | 05-08-2007 11:43 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Quote:
Originally Posted by Dymaxion42 (Post 600748) What does it mean to harden the perimeter?
REV is the man and will be able to provide all necessary information but here's a little spoof action (or is it) to get the cranial juices flowing. http://www.zombieinitiative.org/node/531

Kahlil Gibran | 05-08-2007 11:56 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Quote:
Originally Posted by gasilat (Post 600557) I'm just talking here...not directed at anybody... But my philosophy is most people feel the need to be around other people. Yes, it can be rationalized for practical survival reasons such as needing a doctor, dentist, some particular skill set... I think most people are aprehensive of aloneness. Being all alone, isolated. This is why most folks tend to group in clusters. Once you get past the loneliness, and recognize isolation as just aloneness... if you find you can live with yourself...
Some of the loneliest people are in crowds...

mjk1971 | 05-09-2007 12:58 AM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Close-proximity to a small town.

REV127 | 05-09-2007 03:30 AM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Quote:
Originally Posted by Dymaxion42 (Post 600748) What does it mean to harden the perimeter?
The basic concept is to have a system that A) alterts you to enemy presence B) blocks or at least slows enemy infiltration The most basic example would be having a dog and a fence around your house in suburbia. From there it can get a lot more sophisticated. Being alerted to an enemy presence is the most important and for this you'll need some system of alarms. The alarms can be anything from high tech seismic sensors and closed circuit tv cameras to simple lookouts or tripwire and rattling cans. Even some animals can fill this role such as dogs and geese. It's best to have multiple redundant systems that are layered and extend a good ways out from the point you're trying to defend so you have failover and the earliest possible warning. You may want to spend a few bucks on a couple rolls of barbwire from your local hardware or feed store. You can be a bit more aggressive and search out the old springloaded iron bear traps, I've found them for under $200 and they're the poor man's reuseable landmine. Use fences, barricades, traps and terrain to restrict access and funnel attackers into predetermined kill zones. Your home should be concrete with a metal roof to resist being burned out, have a fire extinguisher too. Put storm shutters on your windows, the beefier the better. If you have a basement or crawlspace under your house cut a hole the width of the door and several feet long right inside your doorway. When you're awake have a panel to cover it, remove the panel at night so anybody kicking down your door and rushing in falls in the hole. If he only falls up to his knees or waist he'll also block the doorway and therefore slow down anybody else trying to rush in behind him giving you a few extra seconds to get ready. Use furniture and achitecture to funnel traffic in your house in predetermined ways. When you walk in my front door you have a wall on your left and a sofa on your right effectively making a long narrow entry way. If somebody kicks down my door in the middle of the night I know exactly where to start pumping my rounds into. Similarly you can place net or second door, anything that will obstruct anyone trying to gain unauthorized entry. Route your sprinkler system in such a way you can use it to deliver gasoline instead of water from the safety of your garage or utility room and you can compromise an army of tens or hundreds in your front yard. Let them try to shoot you then. These are just a handful of possibilities and much depends on the specifics of the area you're trying to defend. Think defense in depth. Nobody should ever just be able to walk up to your door without you knowing it.

Dymaxion42 | 05-09-2007 01:40 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Wow. Our group of hungry thugs will regret stumbling across your place. A long way to go for me, but a lot of good ideas to think about. Thanks Rev. Dymaxion

wallew | 05-09-2007 02:20 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? I'm gonna 'step up' REV's suggestions just a little. Rev 'hinted at it' with his bear trap statement of 'poor man's land mine'. Folks, if you are going to live out in the boonies BY YOURSELF, then learn how to handle and use explosives PROPERLY. Pretty much easy to make. Easy to work with and VERY effective. The wife and mines retirement home will be made of rice bale. But that's deceptive. The rice bales will be 4' x 4' x 8'. Both the interior and exterior of the rice bale wall will be first covered with a high quality tar paper (cuts down on water seepage). That is covered with a good 'chicken wire'. The chicken wire is the basis for the concrete stucco that is then applied. The wife wants to use stones at least five feet up the walls for 'decorative' purposes, but I will turn that into yet another layer of the defensive wall. I know that sounds like a thick wall, but it will ONLY be the outside portion of the wall. Next will be the steel framework of the house itself with 18 inches of concrete (poured on the ground then when dried, raised and bolted in place to the steel girders) and then another interior row of rice bales. So our walls will be about 9.5 feet thick. This type of construction does a couple of things. Regardless of the location, insulation is at a maximum. Ceiling height is 15'. There will be little need for heating OR cooling. The inside temperature will hover right around 65 degrees year round. The lack of needing either a heating or cooling system save us money. Not only at the construction phase, but also through out the years of ownership, where we won't have the need to fix or replace broken environmental systems such as HVAC. There will be NO exterior windows. All windows will face the enclosed inner courtyard. Every room will have at least one or more skylights (think like a garage door with glass windows). Each skylight will ALSO have a rolling steel door that can be shut above the glass skylight window, thereby effectively keeping the whole house safe with the push of the panic button. The inner courtyard will also have these types of skylights and steel shutter on them. We will be 'off grid'. The roof of the building will be concrete. It will be poured in such a manner that the rain will 'run off' to the four corners. Each corner will have a large drain that drains into one of two cisterns, which will be used as a source of water to grow our gardens and in an emergency, to flood the roof (after shutting the drains) with about 1" of water. So fire is the least of our worries. With the walls 9.5 feet thick, the goal is to be able to absorb UP TO .50 caliber incoming rounds without them penetrating the interior. You wouldn't even believe the two doors that will allow access into the our home. Plus we will also have a similar single garage door entrance. Needless to say, massive is but one of the words that have been used by people I show the design to. Yet with proper design a door weighing two or three tons can be closed with one or two fingers and then 'bolted' into place and it will take heavy explosives to make even a dent. There will be explosives planted in the ground in certain areas for detonation against attack of larger forces (like the front and rear entrances). Think homemade claymores. Not difficult to build IN ADVANCE and fairly easy to reuse if you make them correctly. A heavy steel box, a little resin, a bag of shot, some gunpowder in a sealed pouch with either an electric or a regular fuse installed. Put it all together and you have a claymore that will 'discourage' even the hardiest of raiders. So, as with MOST things in life, a little pre-planning, a LOT of hard work done by YOU and of course a little money for raw materials and you would be surprised what you can accomplish. Don't let living the boonies scare you. If you just GOTTA have neighbors, then do what we are going to do. Start a retirement 'commune' with a select group of our friends who are like minded. We will purchase the land and make small plots available to about eight or nine other couples. Each person brings something different to the table. We will help each other build our own retirement homes, kind of like the old fashioned 'house raisings' that used to occur in the country whenever a neighbor needed help. We are going to have a 'berry farm' somewhere in the northwest. No big deal. 200 acres or less. Just enough to generate enough income to pay the taxes on the property. Plus a HUGE garden for those of us who live there. Maybe even run one or two buffalo.

Dymaxion42 | 05-09-2007 02:36 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 601376) Don't let living the boonies scare you.
With a set-up like you describe, it sounds a bit like living in the boonies scares you. :laugh: kidding! More power to you. I think my balance is pretty far from anything like that. I'll do some reasonable prepping -- to get through economic crisis, short-term food shortages, bird flu pandemic -- but if we really get to TEOTWAWKI, I'll just fall in with the rest of the refugees and face my fate. I'm not willing to go to such lengths to prepare for the possiblility that someone may someday be coming after me with .50 caliber rounds. But with a home like that, you may literally have the last laugh. Dymaxion

wallew | 05-10-2007 01:02 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Dymaxion42, No, NOT SCARED of the boonies. I've dug 30+ caliber bullets out of a log cabin wall that were just 'riccochets' that happened to hit the house. Now, in TODAYS arsenal, having a .50 caliber weapon is NOT out of the realm of possibilities. I'm NOT talking about a fully automatic fifty, but even that IS a possibility THESE days. More along the lines of someone who actually owns a Barrett 50 cal or a bolt action. There will be a couple in OUR arsenal, if a buddy of mine actually can 'get' to us. Even if he has to fight his way in, he still knows he and his will be much safer with us than on his own. So, you design UP TO what you think you will face. Now if ANY NG or regular Army shows up, we are pretty screwed, because a 20mm chain gun will chop that wall to pieces. To say nothing of any mortar, arty or tank gunfire. So, like I say, you design for what you THINK you will face and hope and pray that you did it right. A lot of homes these days will be like 'shotgun' houses. Rounds will zip in one side and out the other. Enough of them penetrate the interior and you and yours are dead. Plan for the WORST. Hope for the BEST. Not afraid. Planning for YEARS for this home. The design started as an underground home. Morphed into a concrete dome home. Then FINALLY we settled on rice bale. If a better, cheaper product comes along, we will consider it. Did I mention that WITH the attached garage and the interior courtyard, the structure will enclose approximately six thousand feet? Most of the house can be closed off in sections, so the wife and I can live in about 2500 ft. Garage is huge and will take a semi or RV if necessary. PLUS six cars and various motorcycles, etc. Behind the house, enclosed in a 15 ft fence will be one acre with the fence attached to the house. The front half will just be 'yard for the dogs'. The back half will be a quarter acre garden and a quarter acre orchard. I have promised my wife to grow her an avacado tree in the inner courtyard so she can eat avacados any time she wants. All that means is we won't be living some place where it snows.

REV127 | 05-10-2007 02:23 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Quote:
Originally Posted by Dymaxion42 (Post 601313) Wow. Our group of hungry thugs will regret stumbling across your place. A long way to go for me, but a lot of good ideas to think about. Thanks Rev. Dymaxion
You take security with you no matter where you choose to go, it isn't something you just find at your destination. The principle is exactly the same in an urban environment though the implementation may vary. There is much sense in living within reach of a hospital, as others have already said the outskirts of a small town are just about optimal. I live outside the limits of a small town that lies beyond a big city but the only access is through one 2 lane rural road that crosses a few rivers. As far as houses go, I've got about 2 years before I can build mine. It'll be poured cement or concrete block, double wall construction with sand or crushed stone in the space between the walls. Like the bale construction this has excellent ballistic and insulative properties. I'm planning on making it two stories with a balacony. The bedrooms will be upstairs and accessible only through a long narrow corridor that can be closed off from the rest of the house. The ground floor will have dirt mounded four feet or so up the wall, probably in the form of raised garden beds. In addition to being useful and decorative it will add measurably to the defensive value of the structure, 12 inches of dirt will stop pretty much all small arms fire. I'm not a big fan of windows either but I'll have some anyway for ventilation and returning fire if need be. They'll be secured with thick steel shutters which I'd have anyway because this is hurricane country. Speaking of ventilation I want two big fans in case anybody tries to gas me out so I can pump it back into their face. Of course having thick lexan windows that would bounce gas grenades helps, too. You also need an escape plan. Mine's pretty simple, if I'm ever that bad off I'll get everybody into the safe room and hit the fire sprinklers, turn my property into a giant napalm/fuel air explosive environment. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to sneak out after detonation even if only as a spirit. :tongue_ma: I wouldn't say I'm particularly scared of living out here but I am worried about the future. I don't like where things are heading and even though I'm peaceable and lawful people like me are being turned into terrorists and enemies of the state merrely because insane megalomaniacs say so. Take a look at the Alabama homeland security thread in general discussion. My one hope is Ron Paul gets elected and makes good on his promises, hopefully bringing about an American renaissance.

Darkside | 05-11-2007 08:46 AM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? There's also the idea of concealment. A group of thugs who find a heavily fortified house/structure will automatically assume they've got something worth protecting. I imagine if TSHTF such thugs might have raided Military armories or such and might have access to some really destructive equipment which you really cannot practically defend against. So the next best solution if you have the right landscape is to simply stay out of sight/ out of mind. If you have a large plot of land in a heavily wooded/hilly area this would be pretty easy. The entrance to your driveway should not be visible at all- no gate, no mailbox no nothing. Perhaps even have it blocked by fake rocks you can move out of the way by hand. Your driveway itself would not be paved or gravel or anything obvious- just look like an old abandoned trail and only noticeable if someone stops and looks around carefully, but the entrance would be just randomly on the side of the road so the chances of someone stopping there is almost nil

randymatt | 05-14-2007 11:04 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? Quote:
Originally Posted by gasilat (Post 600446) small-town, USA and rural areas, USA are very clique-ish... if you want to be "one of them" the locals will need some time to accept you...like years...don't mess up...
http://www.maggiore.net/greenacres/images/e115.jpg

Kahlil Gibran | 05-14-2007 11:09 PM
Re: Small Town or Really Rural? 1 Attachment(s) Attachment 28398 No problem.

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