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- - The AK is lonely (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=214222)

skirnir | 12-19-2007 10:56 PM
The AK is lonely I've heard a few *ahem* unflattering things about the AK, namely that it is inaccurate, and I foresee this causing problems, as in a hypothetical situation, there would be a time frame before which the target would detect one's presence, and call in reinforcements. Would it be advisable to get a second semiautomatic that is more accurate at longer ranges once I'm reasonably good at the AK? If so, which ones would be the most advisable to consider?

SilverCity | 12-19-2007 11:18 PM
Re: The AK is lonely 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Skirnir (Post 883058) I've heard a few *ahem* unflattering things about the AK, namely that it is inaccurate, and I foresee this causing problems, as in a hypothetical situation, there would be a time frame before which the target would detect one's presence, and call in reinforcements. Would it be advisable to get a second semiautomatic that is more accurate at longer ranges once I'm reasonably good at the AK? If so, which ones would be the most advisable to consider?
I will get flamed by some, but... AR-15s are good choice IMO. About twice as expensive as a quality AK, but the better ones, with a good scope, are capable of minute-of-eyeball out to 200 yards. Colt, Bushmaster, Stag Arms, Rock River, etc. all make quality rifles. A good website: http://ar15.com/forums/board.html?b=3

skirnir | 12-19-2007 11:29 PM
Re: The AK is lonely How does the AR compare to the M16 or the FAL? In addition, how reliable is the Romanian PSL?

RiverRat | 12-19-2007 11:33 PM
Re: The AK is lonely :rolleyes_m: I would be more concerned with dependability than accuracy if push comes to shove. I can get 1" groups at 200 yds all day long with my beat up POS Norinco AK...so unless you need sniper accuracy where is the problem ? I don't know if a Bushmaster or FAL could lay submerged in a mud hole for a month and still come out ready to rock...an AK most definitely can. Urban warfare ? I'll take a Mac10/11 and a trusty AK combo over about anything. For close work...nothing beats a 12 gauge pump loaded with #1 Buckshot...I would never trust an automatic. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if I already had a decent AK in reserve. :D:D:D

mtnman | 12-19-2007 11:33 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Once you�re proficient with the finest battle rifle ever built, the AK47 and you feel the need for a rifle with longer range and more knock down power, get an M-14 in 7.62x51 NATO. Hands down the best "Big Bore, Long Range" rifle out there.

mtnman | 12-19-2007 11:39 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by Skirnir (Post 883098) How does the AR compare to the M16 or the FAL? In addition, how reliable is the Romanian PSL?
The AR is the civilian version of the M16, which is the full auto military rifle. The FAL is another fine choice but expensive!

platinumdude | 12-19-2007 11:41 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat (Post 883104) I can get 1" groups at 200 yds all day long with my beat up POS Norinco AK...so unless you need sniper accuracy where is the problem ? :D:D:D
Is that with a scope? That sounds impressive to me. I'm practicing at 25 yds and so so right now, although with a glock 19.

SilverCity | 12-19-2007 11:44 PM
Re: The AK is lonely 5 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Skirnir (Post 883098) How does the AR compare to the M16 or the FAL? In addition, how reliable is the Romanian PSL?
AR-15s are considered civilian versions of the M-16 and are chambered for 5.56 Nato (.223) a lightweight cartridge, but capable of fine long range accuracy with heavier bullets. Cost around $850-1200. Ammo is plentiful and runs about 20-30 cents per round. AR-15s are probably one of the easiest semi-auto rifles to shoot accurately for entry level shooters. I don't think you can find a real M-16 today...select fire Class 3 weapon are VERY expensive to own and must be registered with the Feds. FALs...One of my favorites...shoot 7.62 Nato (.308) which is a heavier, decidedly longer range cartridge than 5.56. Not as inherently accurate without more expensive modifications: heavier match barrel, free-float fore-end. A quality FAL probably runs around $1500...Match grade $2000. Surplus ammo is 50-75 cents per round when you can find it. Not too familiar with the Romanian PSL...although they have a following. AK action (good), 7.54R chambering (good), sniper grade accuracy (I've heard). Cost...$750-1000 or so I've seen. Ammo is probably the cheapest of the three. More AR pictures:

<SLV> | 12-20-2007 12:56 AM
Re: The AK is lonely DSA Arms SA58 FAL-based .308. I like the Para w/16" barrel just cause I think a battle rifle should be easy to maneuver. This can be had for about $1,700. http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SA58TACP http://www.dsarms.com/images/SA58CP.gif

<SLV> | 12-20-2007 12:59 AM
Re: The AK is lonely If you really feel the need to go with 5.56 NATO then get the Robinson XCR. Fixes all the problems that AR-15s have (except for the weak cartridge - but at least it is designed for the NATO round). The XCR can also be converted to a multiple of calibers (and more on the way). I'm waiting for .30-06 or at least .308. http://www.robarm.com/ http://www.robarm.com/prodimages/5.56_L_FH_RS_LG.gif

Mike_Templar | 12-20-2007 09:55 AM
Re: The AK is lonely If you become set on a .223 you could check these out: http://www.wilsoncombat.com/index_rifle.htm They are pricey, but to paraphrase Vincent Vega, when you shoot it, you'll know where the other grand went.

REV127 | 12-20-2007 10:00 AM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by Skirnir (Post 883058) I've heard a few *ahem* unflattering things about the AK, namely that it is inaccurate, and I foresee this causing problems, as in a hypothetical situation, there would be a time frame before which the target would detect one's presence, and call in reinforcements. Would it be advisable to get a second semiautomatic that is more accurate at longer ranges once I'm reasonably good at the AK? If so, which ones would be the most advisable to consider?
Do you own one yet? If so what kind of groups are you shooting? If not under 4" at 100 yards then you either need more practice or you've got a bad AK. If you have a chrome lined bore that means you have a hammer forged military barrel that should be sound, might need to be recrowned even if it is new. If you don't own one yet buy a milled AK or a stamped AK with a 1.5 or 1.6mm reciever. The stiffness will aid accuracy. My milled AK will shoot 2moa with Wolf 122gr FMJ and iron sights. What is the terrain in your area like? Is it wide open spaces? If so you probably want a fullhouse .30cal rifle. If you can't even identify or get LOS on a target more than 200 or 300 yards away then there is not much point. There are AK's chambered in .308, .30-06 and 7.62x54r all of which exhibit DM grade accuracy. DSA FAL's are expensive but very good and can fire both 7.62x51 and .308 spec ammo. The M-14/M1A is a good design but often poorly executed. Springfields are not up to snuff and cannot safely fire .308 spec ammo, you'll pay serious money for one that will. Don't play around with short barrels on a full power .30cal rifle intended for long range work, there is just no sense to giving up velocity and trajectory in a weapon you want to shoot at over 300 yards. AR's/M-X's can be made to work. Compared to other serious fighting rifles they are a poorly engineered toy. They simply will never be as durable, reliable, field maintainable or trouble free as other better designed rifles. Their main claim to fame is they are reasonably accurate and shoot lightweight ammo. Just the same they are 200 yard rifles, just like an AK. As with the AK they can hit targets beyond 200 yards but they start becoming marginal. In the case of the AR-15 it is because the 5.56x45 cartridge, whether loaded with M-193 or M-855 just won't fragment beyond those ranges and that's with a full length 20" barrel. It also won't penetrate much in the way of barriers, even at close range. Once you get down to a 16" barrel in a 5.56 AR you are talking about a weapon with an optium effective range of maybe 100 yards. Sure, it'll hit targets at much longer ranges but with roughly the same terminal effects as a hot .22lr, not exactly battle rifle class. You can increase that terminal performance against a soft target with SP or HP and high grain weight loads but that won't help barrier performance at all. As I've said before I've had a number of real deal M-16A2's pass through my hands from 3 different military contractors and I've got more trigger time on that platform than any other. I'm trained on it and I know how to use it. I also will never deliberately choose one as my own weapon if I have any say in the matter. It is simply outclassed by other rifles. On the plus side they are good for punching holes in paper on the range and will make you a coolguy, an AR might even make you a patriot. There's even a video on YouTube that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that an AR can be shot outdoors for about 700-something rounds before it starts jamming. :wink: So now the next item is can you even shoot past 200 yards? Not just to hit a piece of paper but an actual living, breathing enemy or game animal? What about 300 yards? That's a much harder shot than many suppose. 500 yards? It can be done but now you're starting to get into very tough territory and most people engaging at this range IRL are doing so against an area target, not a point target, and preferably in a volley with several other riflemen. Hitting real live point targets beyond 500 yards is a black art. There are more variables than many people can keep in their head and many of them will be unknown to you unless you can afford the high dollar gear to give you that information. It isn't just MOA and ballistic arc, it is a highly technical shot and your form has to be flawless, under stress. It's also wind drift and time in flight. Just what is the wind like 1/4 or 1/2 mile away? Will a gust kick up a second after you take your shot? Where will your target be one or two seconds from now? Find a wide open space and have a buddy stand still while you measure off 200 or 300 paces. Take a look at his relative size so you get a real idea of what you're talking about here. If you're feeling adventurous wave at him. That will be the signal for him to start moving, walking, running, sitting down, rolling around on the ground, doing the happy dance, whatever. Can you hit that? Find a place where he can stand off 400 or 500 yards and do the same. Then 1000. Have a scope? Take it off your rifle so you don't look like a madman and just look through the scope at him. I can make a sub-500 yard shot over iron sights with reasonable reliability. It's a specialized thing, aside from certain roads there aren't many places I could even see far enough to make such a shot. Sometimes it can be useful to have a more powerful rifle for greater penetration against specialized targets. I do have a rifle for these purposes, a sub-$100 91/30 Mosin Nagant in 7.62x54r. It's a five shot bolt action, ugly as sin and tougher than nails. It'll hold a tight group at long range but it isn't a precision built sniper rifle. It would be useless to me if it was. For one thing it would weigh too much, for another reliability under adverse conditions would be seriously compromised by its necessarily tight clearances. Durability is also a factor. Sure, the rifle would be plenty strong and hard to break, but breakage isn't the problem with a piece of equipment like that... wear and tear is and it don't take too much to start degrading all that accuracy you paid for. Punching holes in paper and fighting are two totally different things. Figure out which you want to do, then equip and train yourself appropriately. If the thought running through your head is something like "if I need more than X-number of shots I'm dead anyway" or "I'd never need to use it under those conditions" you aren't realistic, you're a paperpuncher. That's fine, not a thing in the world wrong with that. Anybody will punch holes in paper hundreds, thousands of times more often then they'll ever be in a fight. Paperpunchers will have some capacity to defend themselves. Just get it straight as to which you are so you don't waste time and money on the wrong gear and training. They are seperate disciplines. If this is about MoneyMatters, set your mind at ease. He had no clue what he was talking about and most of his evidence actually contradicted his statements. In fact I'm pretty sure he's even stated before that he's never been in a firefight in the first place. Some people just believe that the louder and more often something is said the more true it is. As an indication of what you can really expect from your 7.62x39 AK in way of practical accuracy, the actual qualification requirements in the Red Army were 1 shot for 1 head hit at 100 meters, 2 shots for 1 head hit at 200 meters and 3 shots for 1 head hit at 300 meters. Their standard silhouette target is roughly the same as ours. By way of comparison the standard used by the US Army for the M-16 is different. Without getting too technical you get 40 rounds and shoot at 40 popup targets out to 300 yards. You are expected to hit at least 23 of them, shot placement does not matter. It is interesting to me that both tests require a minimum of about 50% accuracy. The Soviet test emphasized shot placement while the American test emphasizes the ability to engage a target quickly.

SilverCity | 12-20-2007 10:29 AM
Re: The AK is lonely 1 Attachment(s) Here are some links to other AR-15 discussions and tests Here's a 10,000 round test. http://www.galleryofguns.com/shootin...es.asp?ID=1205 Another discussion. http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR1...whyanar15.msnw Ammo Oracle. http://ammo.ar15.com/ AR discussions http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=272843 DON'T LIKE THE PUNY .223? Try one in another caliber...6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, .50 Beowulf, etc. http://www.ar15barrels.com/calibers.shtml

REV127 | 12-20-2007 11:22 AM
Re: The AK is lonely Understood. The AR-15 is a great range gun, no question about it. This is what I don't get. Quote:
While we wanted to stress the gun somewhat, I did not intend to deliberately abuse it. For this reason, we took the clean gun at the beginning of the shoot, and we fired a group or two for accuracy; then we proceeded to fire 1000 rounds at a steady, regular cadence. The Colt HBAR/PMC ammo combo had 1.5-inch accuracy potential at 100 yards right out of the box; it sustained that level until the last 1000 rounds. With 1000 rounds downrange, we stopped shooting and thoroughly cleaned the rifle.
and Full auto AR15 1100 round torture test.
Full auto AR15 1100 round torture test.
Why do AR afficiandos feel that a day on the outdoor range is a torture test? Why does a fighting rifle need to be intensely cleaned every 1,000rds? Why does the barrel on a $1,000+ rifle wear out after 9,000rds? If the problems were limited to the early Vietnam era why has my experience, and a great many others, been the same decades later after many revisions of rifle and ammo and magazine? I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings or step on any toes. I only care about practical realities. This one just doesn't compare well to the competition and never has. Many of the problems are endemic to the design can can't go away, like randomly jetting hot gas into your eye through the charging handle and thereby messing up your target aquisition. Or the many small parts easily lost when field stripping. Guess what happens when you shoot an AR that has a buffer tube filled with water? It hates being dirty but dirties its own action just by shooting the thing. 6.8 and 6.5 are good rounds.

SilverCity | 12-20-2007 11:42 AM
Re: The AK is lonely No hurt feelings. :wink: I like to think of ARs as the "Great American Princess" of firearms...LOL...we like to look at 'em and play with 'em...BUT sometimes they can be hell to live with. :rant: :D:D:D

mayhem | 12-20-2007 12:14 PM
Re: The AK is lonely My experience has been when I see people defending the AR I ask them, "Have you ever been to war with it?" Most have never had to rely on it for their life. In Nam we would pick up a AK whenever we could. Have to hide it or the CO would take it away from us. Damn 12ga was a better all around weapon than a AR. PS. If your AK is lonley buy a couple more to keep it company.

REV127 | 12-20-2007 12:29 PM
Re: The AK is lonely The great majority of people in a Western country, even the great majority in a Western army, will never actually fight in a battle even if everybody should be prepared to do so on the principle of Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum. It'd be unfair and impractical to hold everybody strictly to that standard but they should at least really put their weapons through their paces under field and fighting conditions in training, not just range conditions. AR-type rifles fail at a rate higher than AK-type rifles even in tactical training classes. Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity No hurt feelings. :wink: I like to think of ARs as the "Great American Princess" of firearms...LOL...we like to look at 'em and play with 'em...BUT sometimes they can be hell to live with. :rant: :D:D:D
:coolbeer: I'm an easy going kind of guy. I don't like trouble or things that put great demands on my time and patience. I suppose that's why we got a divorce. :wink:

Krugerrand | 12-20-2007 02:34 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 883504) On the plus side they are good for punching holes in paper on the range and will make you a coolguy, an AR might even make you a patriot.
Too funny, Rev. :haha: :bear_tongue:

mayhem | 12-20-2007 03:24 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 883726) The great majority of people in a Western country, even the great majority in a Western army, will never actually fight in a battle even if everybody should be prepared to do so on the principle of Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum. It'd be unfair and impractical to hold everybody strictly to that standard but they should at least really put their weapons through their paces under field and fighting conditions in training, not just range conditions. AR-type rifles fail at a rate higher than AK-type rifles even in tactical training classes.
Yeah your right REV. I just loose patience with the folks who don't understand the usefulness of the weapon they have. AR's have their place, though I personally haven't figured it out for myself. Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 883726) I'm an easy going kind of guy. I don't like trouble or things that put great demands on my time and patience. I suppose that's why we got a divorce. :wink:
I like to think that I'm the same way. Maybe I'm just lazy also, and don't spend a whole lot of time fussing over my weapons. I like them simple and functional. AE

REV127 | 12-20-2007 03:53 PM
Re: The AK is lonely I am the king of lazy! The thing is life's a lot of work no matter what you're doing so I try to do things right the first time so I don't have to keep going back over the same thing again and again. I guess that's why I'm attracted to strength, reliability and simplicity. I expect all my gear to work even when subjected to abuse and neglect because it is under those conditions that I will need to rely on it the most desperately.

TomD | 12-20-2007 04:14 PM
Re: The AK is lonely I enlisted in the Marines in the late 60's. We went through PI and qualified with 14's but got 16's at Geiger for Infantry training. I still compete in several rifle disciplines up to 1,000 yards and have several purpose built match rifles but I still have a fondness for the M-14 and the 308 round. I intend to buy a Springfield Socom version in the next couple of months. I've got a scoped flat top Colt AR match version and it is FAR more accurate than an AK. Shooting Sierra 80's off a bi-pod at 600 yards in F class matches, it's not really competitive with the custom bolt guns but I have shot 200-17X relays. Nobody has even bothered to try an AK in a competition of this sort, it would be ludicrous. Paper punching admittedly. Nonetheless, the AK is marginal at 300 and useless over; the 16 can still hit at 600. BTW, in the picture below, the black is about 3 feet in diameter, you are shooting at a six inch circle in the middle. http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...f/DCP_0176.jpg

GOLDDIVERS | 12-20-2007 04:23 PM
Re: The AK is lonely I wonder how many people have spent a few years in the military with an M-16 . Id guess 90% of opinions on the internet on the AR are basically BS. Hit a target at 300 yards all day long with an AR means its a great weapon to own . Id bet the negative reviews on the AR are from people that have never spent time with one or even owns one. Its a great rifle, buy the varieties . How many people do you know personally or yourself who have carried an AK for years? NONE or 1. I think the AR is the best choice for the kinda folks that read this forum or the likes of it.

Silver Spoon | 12-20-2007 04:40 PM
Re: The AK is lonely I must be a slow learner so bare with me for a moment. But did that video not show the AR "performing"? I've only got bolt actions (308 and 22) due to living in a police state and I wouldn't want to fire off 1000+ rounds (reloading them would take me ages, plus my shoulder would be fully caned)

____hoot____ | 12-20-2007 05:38 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Read a blog over at THR.com about a "contractors" 5 day training class held last spring in a junkyard in the south eastern hills. It was BYOG for the three dozen or so trainees and it was a mix of mostly newer units. Everything worked fine until it rained hard on the third day and then everything was in the sticky red MUD. All those dinky little springs in the stupid AR design started raiseing their ugly little heads and there were TWO KABOOMS of AR designs~~~~~AK's with their three beefy springs soldiered through like they were suppose to. Have you ever counted the number of little springs in that AR design? Pretty obvious by now that TPTB have their plans to take the USA down. They made us make and drive cars that were 2nd class by design for decades, why do you think it would be any different with our service rifles?

<SLV> | 12-20-2007 05:49 PM
Re: The AK is lonely I'm beginning to think that being a FAL (DSA) fan might be one way to avoid this whole AK/AR argument. For that matter, the JLD PTR-91 is looking good too. The .308 (7.62 NATO) has more thump than either the .223 or 7.62x39, and the Heckler & Koch or FNHerstal platforms are both reliable and accurate.

TomD | 12-20-2007 06:02 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by ____hoot____ (Post 884126) Read a blog over at THR.com about a "contractors" 5 day training class held last spring in a junkyard in the south eastern hills. It was BYOG for the three dozen or so trainees and it was a mix of mostly newer units. Everything worked fine until it rained hard on the third day and then everything was in the sticky red MUD. All those dinky little springs in the stupid AR design started raiseing their ugly little heads and there were TWO KABOOMS of AR designs~~~~~AK's with their three beefy springs soldiered through like they were suppose to. Have you ever counted the number of little springs in that AR design? Pretty obvious by now that TPTB have their plans to take the USA down. They made us make and drive cars that were 2nd class by design for decades, why do you think it would be any different with our service rifles?
Lessee, there are at least two springs in the trigger group but I don't take that down so I'm now sure. Other than that, there is one spring for the extractor and another bolt return spring. The AK would have a duplicate of each of these. There is a spring for the bolt assist and another for the port cover but neither of these would affect basic functionality if they failed. I'm quite sure that none of these springs could cause the rifle to explode. Exploding rifles usually have to do with bore obstructions. Could you explain how a failed spring could result in an exploded rifle? Could you post a link please. I've never heard of exploding ARs. BTW: It was GM, Ford, Chrysler and the UAW, not the US government that stuck us with lousy cars for so long. It was the competition from Japan and Germany that forced the assholes off their fat butts to try to make decent cars.

TomD | 12-20-2007 06:58 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by <slv> (Post 884139) I'm beginning to think that being a FAL (DSA) fan might be one way to avoid this whole AK/AR argument. For that matter, the JLD PTR-91 is looking good too. The .308 (7.62 NATO) has more thump than either the .223 or 7.62x39, and the Heckler & Koch or FNHerstal platforms are both reliable and accurate.
I've got a H&K 91 and have a couple of gripes. The trigger is the worst that I own by a long shot, around a 10 pound let off with a huge amount of creep and drag. In addition, it is a dirty shooter. Something about the action but fire a few rounds and it will take hours to clean it back up. The accuracy is OK for a battle rifle but not more. I put a scope on it once but took it back off. PS: Anyone want to buy a B Square H&K 91 scope mount? I've got one cheap. </slv>

graspAU | 12-20-2007 07:01 PM
Re: The AK is lonely 1 Attachment(s) Not my picture, but a nice one to look at. I don't have an AK.

REV127 | 12-20-2007 07:22 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Spoon (Post 884072) I must be a slow learner so bare with me for a moment. But did that video not show the AR "performing"? I've only got bolt actions (308 and 22) due to living in a police state and I wouldn't want to fire off 1000+ rounds (reloading them would take me ages, plus my shoulder would be fully caned)
Nah, not a slow learner at all. It's probably not obvious to many American shooters either. The man in question is just shooting his gun outside. He isn't actually taking it through the paces of any of the stuff you'd be doing in a real firefight. Things like rolling in the dirt and low crawling to avoid being hit while moving to a superior position. He isn't having to rapidly traverse unpleasant terrain features like creeks, ditches, mudholes and who knows what, all of which will get gunk all over and all in your weapon. It hasn't been raining on him and his weapon all day. Or freezing. He hasn't been doing any of this stuff for two or three days straight with little opportunity to sleep yet alone field stripping and thoroughly cleaning the rifle. He makes a big deal of dropping the hot rifle in a pool of clear water. What may not be obvious to many casual shooters is that guns get hot, fast. Even bolt actions. They don't call them FIREarms for nothing. Well guess what you do in a fight when you weapon is getting so hot it threatens to sear the flesh of your hand if you grab it wrong? On tv and in movies they always show some badass warrior taking some blood oath by cutting his hands. Real fighters don't do that, they protect their hands because they need them to fight. Your weapon starts running that hot you cool it off with whatever you have, a canteen, a steam, snow, a mud puddle, peeing on it... you can't afford to have a weapon too hot to be effective with. A weapon that can't take being dropped repeatedly in a mud puddle has failed in one of the primary criteria for a fighting implement, the ability to keep it in the fight under adverse conditions. The rifle in the video failed after about 700 rounds of ordinary square range shooting and a couple trips to a cooling off puddle. Most serious infantry weapons don't fail from square range use, they are made to and capable of holding up under combat conditions. As far as what makes an AK more reliable than an AR, springs are a maybe. Here's a definately list in no particular order. * tapered case ammo for easier extraction * large reciprocating mass * generous clearances * gas piston driven action * extremely robust and reliable magazines * large, simple, strong moving parts * an open design that allows gunk to work its way out FAL's are good rifles but you'll pay handsomely for that ammo. If you don't have any already stockpiled you should probably hold off a few months and see if the surplus Portugese 7.62x51 gets in at a reasonable price. If so buy up a couple thousand rounds. Good quality FAL's will be available on the market for some time, especially with ammo prices currently over 50 cents a round for fmj. AR's can certainly hit at long ranges, but again it comes to terminal effect. The right bullet can help but it just isn't a round designed to be dammaging at those ranges, it was engineered for close range fights. It isn't all obvious and linear. 122gr 7.62x39 will do more dammage against a soft target at 400 yards than 7.62x51 ball will because the former tumbles more readily. Of course it will be a bit easier to hit with the x51. That's why a person should examine their actual needs and select the appropriate tool for the job. Czech silver tip 7.62x54r is very nasty stuff...

money matters | 12-20-2007 11:04 PM
Re: The AK is lonely 6" at 1000 yds for F class. 6" at 600yds for Highpower or service rifle, no scopes. Many competitors use AR-10 in Highpower. They want a .5moa capable rifle to be competitive. 10rds inside 3" at 600 under a no-wind situation, so you aren't surprised by the odd puff that blows your 10 into the 9 ring. The AK is lonely... Why not orphan it off? Get a rifle that has power, versatility, accuracy potential? A 75gr match bullet is very adequate for all around use, if you choose it to be. More versatility with the .308, but the 75/77gr match bullets are able performers loaded to magazine length. Not the choice for 600yd competition, but the Army Marksmanship Unit shoots one bullet across the course. They win a lot. In the hands of a trained marksman the AR-15 is a wonder. Always the argument about "mud", "sand" or now I guess "rain", which makes the AK "superior". Nobody endorsing the 7.62x39 for elk tonite? I would get rid of the AK and replace it with an AR-15 or AR-10. If you want an out of the box accurate rifle, buy an A-4 service rifle with the NM removable sights and 20" 1/7 or 1/8 twist barrel. You can scope it easily and even compete with the detachable match sights. Free float tube and quality barrel will give you a big edge in the accuracy dept. Only the AR platforms have integral picatinny rail receivers (in A3 or A4 configuration). No other military rifle is so easily or effectively able to be equipped with optics. Pretty hard for me to compromise on accuracy and power, not to mention ammunition versatility. 99% of the time, maybe more; you will not be laying in the mud engaging a target, nor will you be emerging from a swamp or a sandstorm. The AK is going to be hugely inaccurate for 99% of the rounds you will fire, all for the sake of dependability. I think accuracy and power are attributes I would rather depend on. With an AK, you might not get to that one time where conditions are so crummy you are victor of the day. You might actually meet an opponent who can keep their rifle out of the crap, and win the contest with one, well-placed round.

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- - The AK is lonely (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=214222)

<SLV> | 12-20-2007 11:19 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Can't we all just agree that the FAL in .308 is a great compromise and bests the AK in range and the AR in power without gumming up like the AR?

skirnir | 12-21-2007 12:54 AM
Re: The AK is lonely I read that shooting at 300 yards was a standard exercise for the Soviet military, and that it has an effective range of 400 yards. I have no intention of getting rid of the AK unless it's in a swap for a better rifle; I'm getting a bad vibe form that gun bill...but I'd like to clear some stuff up first. Besides the expensive ammo, any downsides to the FAL? Is the AR ammo particularly expensive? Would the AR or the FAL (or another rifle) be the better compliment to the AK? Which ammos are the cheapest?

Unclad Lad | 12-21-2007 02:54 AM
Question #5 Why does it need to be a semiautomatic? If accuracy at a distance is your goal, there are many surplus bolt actions that will do the job for a lot less money. The Swiss 7.5 and the Swedish 6.5X55 stand out, but there are a lot of accurate 8mm Mausers out there still.

TomD | 12-21-2007 08:35 AM
Re: The AK is lonely Here's an advantage of the AR platform that nobody has mentioned. With an AR, the legal definition of the firearm is the lower receiver, the part with the trigger group, handle and rear stock. The upper receiver is the part with the barrel hung on it. You can buy replacement uppers in all sorts of calibers, limited only by magazine length. The uppers can be swapper out in a couple of minutes. Don't like 223? Put on a 6BR or 6.8 Grendel. You buy the receiver complete with barrel and bolt (if necessary). The upper is not considered to be a firearm so the government isn't involved and they are made in a huge array of calibers, down to 22 rimfire and up to .458 Socom.

<SLV> | 12-21-2007 09:42 AM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by Skirnir (Post 884605) I read that shooting at 300 yards was a standard exercise for the Soviet military, and that it has an effective range of 400 yards. I have no intention of getting rid of the AK unless it's in a swap for a better rifle; I'm getting a bad vibe form that gun bill...but I'd like to clear some stuff up first. Besides the expensive ammo, any downsides to the FAL? Is the AR ammo particularly expensive? Would the AR or the FAL (or another rifle) be the better compliment to the AK? Which ammos are the cheapest?
FAL has a little more kick and noise. I think reloading is the way to go. You can reload .308 in Speer 150 gr. FMJ BT for about $0.25/round. Also, your handloads will be more consistent and powerful than surplus/factory loads. Then there is the option of specialized loads with ballistic tips, subsonic, etc. You are limited only by your imagination, and (of course) safety.

SilverCity | 12-21-2007 10:30 AM
Re: The AK is lonely The FAL is my go-to rifle...owned them for going on 30 years...nuff said. HK-91 was probably the most accurate out of the box battle rifle for me...many years ago. With iron sights, heavy military trigger, crappy reloads, off the top of my car, I once put 8 rounds into 7/8 inch, dead-on the X @175 paces...not too bad. Down sides to the HK or PTR for that matter...poor ergonomics...ugh. Someone also pointed out that the rifle could be rendered inoperable by a dented charging handle tube on the receiver...no way to recharge the weapon. :thumpdown I have had issues with a number of M1As and Springfield Armory...don't get me started...bedding and trigger problems. Though if properly tuned they can be wonderfully accurate...but again the G.A.P. syndrome, too high maintenance.

<SLV> | 12-21-2007 10:32 AM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity (Post 884925) The FAL is my go-to rifle...owned them for going on 30 years...nuff said. HK-91 was probably the most accurate out of the box battle rifle for me...many years ago. With iron sights, heavy military trigger, crappy reloads, off the top of my car, I once put 8 rounds into 7/8 inch dead-on the X @175 paces...not too bad. Down sides to the HK or PTR for that matter...poor ergonomics...ugh. Someone also pointed out that the rifle could be rendered inoperable by a dented charging handle tube on the receiver...no way to recharge the weapon. :thumpdown
Thanks for that info. I'm trying to decide between a DSA SA58/STG58 FAL and the PTR-91 HK clone. I held both yesterday, and it felt like the PTR-91 was lighter and better balance. Also the PTR has a great German telescoping stock. However I like the integral bipod on the STG58 and there seems to be more aftermarket options for the DSA. After what TomD said about his HK-91 I'm leaning toward the DSA FAL platform. PS - Any thoughts on the M-14? I thought it was heavy and bulky, but the guy at the gun shop said they are immensely popular.

REV127 | 12-21-2007 10:40 AM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by Skirnir (Post 884605) I read that shooting at 300 yards was a standard exercise for the Soviet military, and that it has an effective range of 400 yards. I have no intention of getting rid of the AK unless it's in a swap for a better rifle; I'm getting a bad vibe form that gun bill...but I'd like to clear some stuff up first.
1. Besides the expensive ammo, any downsides to the FAL? The FAL is a solid fighting rifle. As such it will not deliver sub-moa groups but it is a 500 yard rifle that will keep going under harsh conditions. If you don't need to/can't shoot at 500 yards then there are a few downsides. Ammo is heavy so your loadout will be heavy. Rifle is heavy and very long so it won't handle as well in tight spaces. You can cut down the barrel to save weight and length but then you also give up velocity which doesn't make sense for a long range weapon and only illustrates that what you really wanted was an intermediate caliber rifle. Military models were cut down so they could have a special purpose version of their general issue rifle that would use the same parts and ammo. It does have a long length of pull, a bit over 14 inches, so that may or may not be comfortable for you. Since the recoil spring is located in the buttstock that is a hard thing to address unless you install the para kit and a custom stock. These guys make the best FAL. www.dsarms.com Is the AR ammo particularly expensive? About $400/1000 for the cheap stuff. Well, you can go down to $200/1000 with the Russian offerings but the steel cases are hard on some AR's, like breaking extractors, and you lose your main wounding effect because the steel jacketed ammo doesn't frag. Then you are back to the same problem you run into with the AR over 200 yards, .22 magnum-class wounding performance. Would the AR or the FAL (or another rifle) be the better compliment to the AK? The AR competes against the AK, they both fill the same niche. The FAL is built for engagements at longer ranges than either of those and offers substantially more power than either of those. The FAL would be more complimentary to the AK than the AR. [i]Which ammos are the cheapest?[i] Out of those three? 7.62x39 for the AK, and it is the same price for the loads with the greatest wounding effect as it is for practice ammo. Then comes the 5.56x45 for the AR and last is the 7.62x51 or .308 for the FAL. If you want an M-14 type rifle don't buy a Springfield Armory. Popular? Yes. Poor quality internals? Yes. Can it shoot .308 spec ammo safely? No. As a general rule anything made by SA sucks. Anything they OEM is ok.

SilverCity | 12-21-2007 10:50 AM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 884939) Thanks for that info. I'm trying to decide between a DSA SA58/STG58 FAL and the PTR-91 HK clone. I held both yesterday, and it felt like the PTR-91 was lighter and better balance. Also the PTR has a great German telescoping stock. However I like the integral bipod on the STG58 and there seems to be more aftermarket options for the DSA. After what TomD said about his HK-91 I'm leaning toward the DSA FAL platform. PS - Any thoughts on the M-14? I thought it was heavy and bulky, but the guy at the gun shop said they are immensely popular.
I have had issues with a number of M1As and Springfield Armory (Reese bros)...don't get me started...bedding and trigger problems. Though if properly tuned they can be wonderfully accurate...1/2 MOA, but again the G.A.P. syndrome, too high maintenance. I have owned 5...and had issues with Springfield quality control...three had double firing due to LIGHT trigger out of the box...should be 4.5# was 2.75...called SA and was told "shoot standing up or load ONE AT A TIME FROM A BENCH"...no joke...YEAH, thats what I paid big bucks for...an M1A SINGLE SHOT. Bedding was another problem. You can't field strip for cleaning without compromising the bedding compound, which is essential for fine edge accuracy...match shooters typically re-bed regularly...I threw in the towel on M1As.

<SLV> | 12-21-2007 11:11 AM
Re: The AK is lonely I see a mid-range benefit to a DSA 16" FAL para - more knock down power and AP capability. They are a little heavy, but from what I've heard they are one of the "softest" shooting .308s. I think I'm going to move away from the AK platform (although I think it is really solid) and toward the FAL platform for the following reasons: 1. Ability to reliably hunt large game (elk/moose) 2. Same size and portability of the AK (with folding stock and 16" barrel) 3. More power for a tactical situation 4. Reloadable brass from 7.62 NATO (versus NON-reloadable steel AK ammo) Yes, it does only work consistently well with a 20-rd. magazine, and yes the ammo costs more - but reloading puts it in the same price range as 7.62x39 (@ $225/1,000 rds AK).

TomD | 12-21-2007 11:28 AM
Re: The AK is lonely Oh yeah, about the H&K The kick is very soft, it feels like the kick impulse lasts 2-3 times longer than some other gas operated weapons that I've shot. I really don't mind 308 level recoil anyway. It's when you get to 6 lb rifles in 300 Win Mag that I start flinching. I've got a Marlin guide rifle in 450 mag and you don't shoot that thing 100 times a day for fun. You will not reload any brass that comes out of that chamber, it's destroyed.

REV127 | 12-21-2007 12:07 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 884994) I see a mid-range benefit to a 16" FAL para - more knock down power and AP capability. You can get them from DSA with a 5-position M4 stock to set your own pull length. They are a little heavy, but from what I've heard they are one of the "softest" shooting .308s. I think I'm going to move away from the AK platform (although I think it is really solid) and toward the FAL platform for the following reasons: 1. Ability to reliably hunt large game (elk/moose) 2. Same size and portability of the AK (with folding stock and 16" barrel) 3. More power for a tactical situation 4. Reloadable brass from 7.62 NATO (versus NON-reloadable steel AK ammo) Yes, it does only work consistently well with a 20-rd. magazine, and yes the ammo costs more - but reloading puts it in the same price range as 7.62x39 (@ $225/1,000 rds AK).
The reloadable ammo thing on 7.62x39 is incorrect. Fiochi is accurate fmj ammo that costs 30 cents a round and has a fully reloadable brass case. There are many other reloadable brass case options as well but Fiochi is the most cost effective. Do as you will but be aware that with a 16" barrel your velocity is down to 2500-2650fps. Here's a table on a 150gr fmj load at the higher end of that range. <TABLE width="80%"><TBODY><TR><TH align=right width=50>Range <TH align=right width=50>Velocity <TH align=right width=50>Impact <TH align=right width=50>Drop <TH align=right width=50>ToF <TH align=right width=50>Energy <TH align=right width=50>Drift</TR> <TR><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>2650</TD><TD align=right width=50>-0.5</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>2339</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>50</TD><TD align=right width=50>2502</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.45</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.76</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.06</TD><TD align=right width=50>2085</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>100</TD><TD align=right width=50>2366</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>2.91</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.12</TD><TD align=right width=50>1865</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>150</TD><TD align=right width=50>2235</TD><TD align=right width=50>-2.01</TD><TD align=right width=50>6.63</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.19</TD><TD align=right width=50>1664</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>200</TD><TD align=right width=50>2107</TD><TD align=right width=50>-5.76</TD><TD align=right width=50>12.09</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.26</TD><TD align=right width=50>1479</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>250</TD><TD align=right width=50>1983</TD><TD align=right width=50>-11.47</TD><TD align=right width=50>19.51</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.33</TD><TD align=right width=50>1310</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>300</TD><TD align=right width=50>1865</TD><TD align=right width=50>-19.42</TD><TD align=right width=50>29.16</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.41</TD><TD align=right width=50>1159</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>350</TD><TD align=right width=50>1751</TD><TD align=right width=50>-29.86</TD><TD align=right width=50>41.31</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.49</TD><TD align=right width=50>1021</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>400</TD><TD align=right width=50>1642</TD><TD align=right width=50>-43.15</TD><TD align=right width=50>56.31</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.58</TD><TD align=right width=50>898</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>450</TD><TD align=right width=50>1540</TD><TD align=right width=50>-59.66</TD><TD align=right width=50>74.53</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.67</TD><TD align=right width=50>790</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>500</TD><TD align=right width=50>1444</TD><TD align=right width=50>-79.86</TD><TD align=right width=50>96.43</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.77</TD><TD align=right width=50>695</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Now compare to 7.62x39. <TABLE width="80%"><TBODY><TR><TH align=right width=50>Range <TH align=right width=50>Velocity <TH align=right width=50>Impact <TH align=right width=50>Drop <TH align=right width=50>ToF <TH align=right width=50>Energy <TH align=right width=50>Drift</TR> <TR><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>2400</TD><TD align=right width=50>-0.5</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>1599</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>50</TD><TD align=right width=50>2238</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.62</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.92</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.07</TD><TD align=right width=50>1390</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>100</TD><TD align=right width=50>2088</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>3.58</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.14</TD><TD align=right width=50>1210</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>150</TD><TD align=right width=50>1944</TD><TD align=right width=50>-2.62</TD><TD align=right width=50>8.25</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.21</TD><TD align=right width=50>1049</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>200</TD><TD align=right width=50>1806</TD><TD align=right width=50>-7.56</TD><TD align=right width=50>15.23</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.29</TD><TD align=right width=50>905</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>250</TD><TD align=right width=50>1676</TD><TD align=right width=50>-15.17</TD><TD align=right width=50>24.88</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.38</TD><TD align=right width=50>780</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>300</TD><TD align=right width=50>1553</TD><TD align=right width=50>-25.89</TD><TD align=right width=50>37.64</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.47</TD><TD align=right width=50>669</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>350</TD><TD align=right width=50>1440</TD><TD align=right width=50>-40.21</TD><TD align=right width=50>54.01</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.57</TD><TD align=right width=50>576</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>400</TD><TD align=right width=50>1337</TD><TD align=right width=50>-58.75</TD><TD align=right width=50>74.59</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.68</TD><TD align=right width=50>496</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>450</TD><TD align=right width=50>1246</TD><TD align=right width=50>-82.14</TD><TD align=right width=50>100.02</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.8</TD><TD align=right width=50>431</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>500</TD><TD align=right width=50>1168</TD><TD align=right width=50>-111.13</TD><TD align=right width=50>131.05</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.92</TD><TD align=right width=50>379</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> As you can see you do get some more energy but just about the same ballistic arc and nearly the same time in flight. The numbers will be even a little closer if you use 7.62x51 spec ammo because it isn't as hot. Here's the same 150gr .308 from the 16" barrel. <TABLE width="80%"><TBODY><TR><TH align=right width=50>Range <TH align=right width=50>Velocity <TH align=right width=50>Impact <TH align=right width=50>Drop <TH align=right width=50>ToF <TH align=right width=50>Energy <TH align=right width=50>Drift</TR> <TR><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>2500</TD><TD align=right width=50>-0.5</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>2082</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>50</TD><TD align=right width=50>2358</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.53</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.85</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.06</TD><TD align=right width=50>1852</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>100</TD><TD align=right width=50>2227</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>3.26</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.13</TD><TD align=right width=50>1652</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>150</TD><TD align=right width=50>2100</TD><TD align=right width=50>-2.29</TD><TD align=right width=50>7.44</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.2</TD><TD align=right width=50>1469</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>200</TD><TD align=right width=50>1976</TD><TD align=right width=50>-6.57</TD><TD align=right width=50>13.6</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.27</TD><TD align=right width=50>1301</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>250</TD><TD align=right width=50>1858</TD><TD align=right width=50>-13.08</TD><TD align=right width=50>21.99</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.35</TD><TD align=right width=50>1150</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>300</TD><TD align=right width=50>1744</TD><TD align=right width=50>-22.12</TD><TD align=right width=50>32.91</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.43</TD><TD align=right width=50>1013</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>350</TD><TD align=right width=50>1636</TD><TD align=right width=50>-34.03</TD><TD align=right width=50>46.7</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.52</TD><TD align=right width=50>891</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>400</TD><TD align=right width=50>1534</TD><TD align=right width=50>-49.18</TD><TD align=right width=50>63.74</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.62</TD><TD align=right width=50>784</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>450</TD><TD align=right width=50>1438</TD><TD align=right width=50>-68.04</TD><TD align=right width=50>84.48</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.72</TD><TD align=right width=50>689</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>500</TD><TD align=right width=50>1351</TD><TD align=right width=50>-91.1</TD><TD align=right width=50>109.42</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.83</TD><TD align=right width=50>608</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> It'd almost be more cost efficient to just buy some of Cor-Bon's 150gr @ 230fps 7.62x39 JSP's for when you want a little more thump. <TABLE width="80%"><TBODY><TR><TH align=right width=50>Range <TH align=right width=50>Velocity <TH align=right width=50>Impact <TH align=right width=50>Drop <TH align=right width=50>ToF <TH align=right width=50>Energy <TH align=right width=50>Drift</TR> <TR><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>2300</TD><TD align=right width=50>-0.5</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>1762</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>50</TD><TD align=right width=50>2166</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.68</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.99</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.07</TD><TD align=right width=50>1563</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>100</TD><TD align=right width=50>2040</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>3.84</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.14</TD><TD align=right width=50>1386</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>150</TD><TD align=right width=50>1919</TD><TD align=right width=50>-2.78</TD><TD align=right width=50>8.79</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.22</TD><TD align=right width=50>1227</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>200</TD><TD align=right width=50>1803</TD><TD align=right width=50>-7.92</TD><TD align=right width=50>16.11</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.3</TD><TD align=right width=50>1083</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>250</TD><TD align=right width=50>1692</TD><TD align=right width=50>-15.76</TD><TD align=right width=50>26.12</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.38</TD><TD align=right width=50>954</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>300</TD><TD align=right width=50>1587</TD><TD align=right width=50>-26.64</TD><TD align=right width=50>39.17</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.48</TD><TD align=right width=50>839</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>350</TD><TD align=right width=50>1487</TD><TD align=right width=50>-40.98</TD><TD align=right width=50>55.68</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.57</TD><TD align=right width=50>737</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>400</TD><TD align=right width=50>1395</TD><TD align=right width=50>-59.26</TD><TD align=right width=50>76.13</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.68</TD><TD align=right width=50>648</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>450</TD><TD align=right width=50>1312</TD><TD align=right width=50>-82</TD><TD align=right width=50>101.04</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.79</TD><TD align=right width=50>573</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>500</TD><TD align=right width=50>1237</TD><TD align=right width=50>-109.78</TD><TD align=right width=50>131</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.91</TD><TD align=right width=50>510</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> https://www.dakotaammo.net/shop/prod...4c3cdf740d2e92 I'm not trying to tear down your idea, there's just a lot of hype out there and I want you to be aware of the practicalities of what you're getting into. Also be aware that raw numbers like energy don't tell the whole story and "energy dump" is largely a myth. Energy is only one of several factors that add up to wounding potential and bullet design is the greatest. Here is a .308 soft point from an 18" barrel, which will be a bit hotter than the 16" barrel we were discussing above. http://www.brassfetcher.com/150%20gr...me%20King.html Now here is a 154gr 7.62x39 soft point at 2095fps, much slower than the other loads we were talking about. http://www.brassfetcher.com/7.62x39m...t%20Point.html As you can see the actual practical wounding effect between the two isn't much different. In fact aside from raw energy numbers none of that .308 from a 16" barrel is offering much real world advantage over 7.62x39. It has nearly the same ballistic arc, nearly the same time in flight, nearly the same wounding effect. If you want a .308 for power and range there is no point in compromising those abilities and ending up back where you started only at greater weight, cost and reduced capacity.

<SLV> | 12-21-2007 12:24 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Thanks, REV! Outstanding data... just what I was looking for. Maybe I should stick with the 21" FAL to make sure I benefit from the guns capabilities.

The Argent Dragon | 12-21-2007 12:26 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by scottp999 (Post 884228) Not my picture, but a nice one to look at. I don't have an AK.
Good pic ~ that top one is a Dragunov, ahem.......very long range :wink: http://www.militarypictures.info/d/273-2/Dragunov.jpg 7.62x54r .......cheap on ammo and a good tack driver. :bear_tongue:

Horn | 12-21-2007 12:33 PM
Re: The AK is lonely You know what I like most about the A.K., that distinct chambering sound that leaves a potential target with no doubt what is coming next.

SilverCity | 12-21-2007 01:27 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 885109) Thanks, REV! Outstanding data... just what I was looking for. Maybe I should stick with the 21" FAL to make sure I benefit from the guns capabilities.
I would agree, SLV

money matters | 12-21-2007 02:02 PM
Re: The AK is lonely The 7.62x39 is like a heavy duty .22lr. Cheap enough for the petty dictator to give for ethnic cleansing or wreaking murder on civilians, but not accurate enough or powerful enough for mutinous troops to be a threat to the palace guard who are armed with Real Rifles. Rev is a disingenuous kind of fanatic about the "wonderful AK". How much of that Fiochi (italian made) 7.62s39 is "out there"? Gonna find Boxer Primed cases very often? Why not just buy Lapua, and get high quality? I am sure a .308x39 would be fairly versatile, but who needs to duplicate the .30-30 and be stuck with the short-ass receiver that can't seat a decent weight bullet? Stupid is as stupid does. I think anyone who mistakes the AK for a full-fledged rifle has failed the lesson.

Horn | 12-21-2007 02:14 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 885244) Stupid is as stupid does. I think anyone who mistakes the AK for a full-fledged rifle has failed the lesson.
I'm thinking you have a slight bias, that's all. Kills is the number one decider.

TomD | 12-21-2007 02:17 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by AuAgHorn (Post 885122) You know what I like most about the A.K., that distinct chambering sound that leaves a potential target with no doubt what is coming next.
Nah, for that distinctive chambering sound that really gets attention, it's a pump shotgun.

REV127 | 12-21-2007 02:49 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 885109) Thanks, REV! Outstanding data... just what I was looking for. Maybe I should stick with the 21" FAL to make sure I benefit from the guns capabilities.
For comparison here is the table for a long barrel .308 w/ 150gr projectile at 2820fps. <TABLE width="80%"><TBODY><TR><TH align=right width=50>Range <TH align=right width=50>Velocity <TH align=right width=50>Impact <TH align=right width=50>Drop <TH align=right width=50>ToF <TH align=right width=50>Energy <TH align=right width=50>Drift</TR> <TR><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>2820</TD><TD align=right width=50>-0.5</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>2649</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>50</TD><TD align=right width=50>2666</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.36</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.68</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.06</TD><TD align=right width=50>2367</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>100</TD><TD align=right width=50>2524</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>2.58</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.12</TD><TD align=right width=50>2122</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>150</TD><TD align=right width=50>2387</TD><TD align=right width=50>-1.74</TD><TD align=right width=50>5.86</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.18</TD><TD align=right width=50>1898</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>200</TD><TD align=right width=50>2255</TD><TD align=right width=50>-5</TD><TD align=right width=50>10.66</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.24</TD><TD align=right width=50>1694</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>250</TD><TD align=right width=50>2126</TD><TD align=right width=50>-9.98</TD><TD align=right width=50>17.19</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.31</TD><TD align=right width=50>1505</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>300</TD><TD align=right width=50>2002</TD><TD align=right width=50>-16.89</TD><TD align=right width=50>25.64</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.38</TD><TD align=right width=50>1335</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>350</TD><TD align=right width=50>1883</TD><TD align=right width=50>-25.98</TD><TD align=right width=50>36.27</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.46</TD><TD align=right width=50>1181</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>400</TD><TD align=right width=50>1768</TD><TD align=right width=50>-37.53</TD><TD align=right width=50>49.36</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.54</TD><TD align=right width=50>1041</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>450</TD><TD align=right width=50>1659</TD><TD align=right width=50>-51.87</TD><TD align=right width=50>65.24</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.63</TD><TD align=right width=50>917</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>500</TD><TD align=right width=50>1555</TD><TD align=right width=50>-69.37</TD><TD align=right width=50>84.28</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.72</TD><TD align=right width=50>805</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> As you can see it has a good lead on even the top end .308 load from a 16" barrel and a significant enough lead over 7.62x39 to be worth the other tradeoffs as long as you can make use of it.

negative1 | 12-21-2007 04:53 PM
Re: The AK is lonely You may also want to consider the SIG 556... http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/2SIGS.JPG They are largely based on the AK design. Great shooting rifles. :D -1

money matters | 12-21-2007 07:34 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Comments I ran across from a leading competitive shooter to a guy enamored of the 6.8spc "About a year ago (January, 2006), a friend of mine had this to say about the M16/5.56 NATO combination: "The last time I faced bad guys was in 2003 on an airfield in western Iraq, armed with an M4. I would much rather have had a full-length M16 to go with the 400 rounds of 5.56 I was carrying, to dominate everything i could see out to 500. I could NOT have carried that equivalent load in 7.62 for the weight. I have full confidence in my ability to kill a target to 500 yards with a base iron sight M16." At the time he wrote this, he was Commander of the Army Marksmanship Unit (LTCOL/COL rank position). He has since rotated back to Special Forces, where he spent much of his military career. That's a professional opinion, from an avid competitive shooter, and real-world operator. It's also not an isolated opinion. Would he have preferred a larger round? Maybe - but in his own words, there was no way he could have carried the same quantity of of ammo as for a 5.56mm rifle. Don't be too wedded to the idea that a larger bore diameter is necessarily better - a LOT of things go into the lethality equation. The Swedes concluded 80% of that equation is shot placement (i.e., where the target is hit). As an aside, I think one of the State Game/Fish & Wildlife Departments did a study of deer kills per caliber, and came to the conclusion kills per caliber was roughly similar - didn't matter if it was a 6mm or something larger."

<SLV> | 12-22-2007 02:39 PM
Re: The AK is lonely A picture of some 91s at work right now on the Turkey/Iraq border: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...=1&image=large http://img.breitbart.com/images/2007.../D8TMLBD00.jpg

SilverCity | 12-22-2007 02:46 PM
Re: The AK is lonely Quote:
Originally Posted by <SLV> (Post 886667) A picture of some 91s at work right now on the Turkey/Iraq border: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...=1&image=large http://img.breitbart.com/images/2007.../D8TMLBD00.jpg
Yes, HKs (G3) are still in service around the world... Years ago, Mel Tappan wrote about the HK in his book, "Survival Guns"...he was real big on them and the M1A as the ultimate go-to survival rifle. He even did his own torture test on the HK-91 if I recall. But that was long ago, and we have considerably more choices today...thank goodness. He only mentioned the FAL in passing...AKs were not available at the time and only a handful of Chinese SKS. When I bought my HK in the late 70's, spare mags were $20 apiece...we thought that was OUTRAGEOUS at the time. We couldn't even afford a sight tool and FORGET the scope mount. Today, the cost of everything else has caught up, and the prices for HK stuff doesn't seem so bad--especially surplus mags $5 or less--scope mounts are more affordable.

smullen | 12-22-2007 03:13 PM
Re: The AK is lonely This debate comes around every few months... I solved it for me... I have two of each... Two Bush Master M4 A3, one Slightly modded the other a bit more. Two AKs, both Maadi Egypt type, one completly stock, other scoped and with an after market stock... I keep plenty of ammo for each and shoot each as often as possible... I always keep more than most people think I'll ever need put up and two different locations.... I also try to rotate rounds and mags every so often... I mostly target shoot and hunt, both I know are far from SHTF situations, but from what I have seen experienced both are great fun to shoot, the ARs seem to have better trigger pull and better longer range groups... Both are accurate at over a 100 Yards... The AK seems to shoot better (not more accurate) in less than ideal (dirty, dusty, wet, mucky, etc) situations.... In Missouri (or my parts of it) I doubt I'll ever see need to range out much further... Both are nice rifles that I'm glad I own and shoot...

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