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- - Bug Out or Dig In? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=100350)

thorgrim | 01-14-2007 05:05 AM
Bug Out or Dig In? I know that there have been some threads on this in the past, but I wanted to start a fresh discussion. I have been doing a lot of thinking about this lately. For me the situation seems to dictate the solution. I know there are many here who are planning to hunker down, and this may be the correct course of action in some cases. However there are other situations that to me it seems like the worst possible thing you could do. If a war with Iran does actually break out and there are oil/food shortages and a collapsing economy then I plan on waiting it out. For this sort of situation I feel that I am well prepared already. Some of this is because of my preps and also much of my confidence has to do with my geographic location. I feel that being here in Alberta that although fuel and cost of living may increase drastically, our local economy must function if NA is to get its oil from somewhere. In fact military conflict with Iran could cause a hyper boom here in Alberta. Perhaps not a smooth ride but livable conditions. I am more worried about what could happen a few years from now however if the NWO gets their way. I look at all the plans and legislation already passed that comes into affect by 2012, much of it earlier. CODEX, NAIS, National ID, travel restrictions, North American Union, etc. (and yes, Canada is on the same track) Eventually if they have their way they will get around to gun confiscation and even chipping of the population. At this point everyone is going to have to decide whether to submit/flee/fight, or a combination thereof. The solution for many of you is self sufficiency. This will save you from many of the problems, but surely you must recognize the futility of this plan. At some point you would be forced into a confrontation with authorities. For example you might not be able to pay your property tax unless you have the chip. Or maybe you will refuse to had over your weapons, or register your livestock/pets. As their grip closes you will eventually break some rule or regulation and failure to submit will mean a confrontation with the police or military. No matter how well prepared or how well armed, you will lose this confrontation if you choose to stay hunkered down. My thinking is, why wait for something like that to happen? Why not bug out earlier, before you are faced with that dilemma. By bugging out I don’t mean becoming a refugee like was suggested by Kahil in another thread. My thinking is more along the lines of moving out of the country or disappearing into the wilderness. I know that many of you have said you will fight; I will leave that up to you to decide. Bugging out doesn’t mean you still can’t fight (I’m not just referring to physical confrontation but also politically and economically) for your freedom/country it just means that you will have no address where they can find you. Please feel free to discuss this and bring up other scenarios. I am trying to come up with the best plan for myself and a good discussion on this topic will surely bring up things I may have not considered.

Kahlil Gibran | 01-14-2007 05:11 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Quote:
Originally Posted by thorgrim (Post 473504) [COLOR=black]My thinking is, why wait for something like that to happen? Why not bug out earlier, before you are faced with that dilemma. By bugging out I don�t mean becoming a refugee like was suggested by Kahil in another thread. My thinking is more along the lines of moving out of the country or disappearing into the wilderness. I know that many of you have said you will fight; I will leave that up to you to decide.
Hey...I said that bugging out was basically being a refugee...the worst possible situation. :eek:

thorgrim | 01-14-2007 05:25 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? I get what you are saying, but to me a refugee is someone who isn't in control of their situation. Basically people who "bugged out" because they were forced to.

Kahlil Gibran | 01-14-2007 05:32 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Quote:
Originally Posted by thorgrim (Post 473511) I get what you are saying, but to me a refugee is someone who isn't in control of their situation. Basically people who "bugged out" because they were forced to.
Exactly. If you are hauling a bug-out bag you basically are a refugee...the worst possible situation.

thorgrim | 01-14-2007 05:49 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? That is worse than being murdered by the (insert government thug agency here) in your own home? If for example your bug out plan involves caching supplies and having shelter/transportation in place. (Not on your own property) How will they find you, if they don't have any idea where you have gone? You have plenty of food stored and can harvest or grow more, once again not on your own land but perhaps scattered plantings in different locations. You are not really desperate in this situation are you? You are making the rules. Like I said in the first post, the situation would dictate the solution. There are too many people that have made up their mind about what is the best course of action.

Curtman | 01-14-2007 05:51 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? In the case of your scenario there is one little detail it appears you have not considered. In the event of ICBMs coming over the top NORAD would more than likely give some silly demonstration at employing an anti missile system. Though the likely hood of some of them being destroyed is reasonable to consider, there is also a stronger likely hood of many being deflected, redirected or even destroyed and detonated in flight. In most of these cases it will be before they reach the United States. Unless Canada's geographic location is relocated before this time it would be easy enough to assume that many "who knows what" parts of Canada would be no safer than lets say Spokane, Chicago, Detroit, Seattle, New York or the desolate Northern Plains. People run from the line in the sand but nuclear fallout does not recognize such ridiculous boundaries. As long as you are in the Northern Hemisphere you are going to be in grave danger. Just something to think about. Don't mean to sound so negative but the truth is real.

thorgrim | 01-14-2007 06:10 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? No apologies necessary Curtman, this is the sort of discussion I was hoping for. I think many people here have made up their mind that there is one best option and they are sticking with one plan, but I think we need to be more flexible then that. There is nothing wrong with drawing a line in the sand either. I have my lines as well. If it does come down to it though, I would rather choose the time and place where a confrontation does occur than be a sitting duck.

Curtman | 01-14-2007 06:31 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Confrontation with an ICBM, HARP or any other number of new age destruction devices will not be a good idea. There is no place for your kind in the NWO, you do not play into the roll. Mind you, the global elite are going to lose this battle. The problem is they will take huge numbers with them along the way. Have you ever lived in the wilderness? I don't mean on a farm in the country, I mean in the deep woods miles from anybody? I have. It is not an easy thing to just "go do". I have no idea how old you are but at my age I would not want to try and learn that all over. Most people in North America are domestic, you can see that. They have been poisoned over the years and generations through food, water, air and Intel, e.g. education or dumbing down of skills man developed over the years to survive. Uh oh, I don't feel good. I wonder what it could be? Sorry nearest road is 30 miles and there is no traffic on it anyway except for the occasional "patrol" which is who you are trying to avoid. If they find you they are going to find where you came from and any who are left. Unless you are willing to be assimilated they do not want you here, that leaves two choices. Leave while you still can or two die. Better pull out Dr. Zhivago and watch it again

thorgrim | 01-14-2007 08:49 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtman Have you ever lived in the wilderness? I don't mean on a farm in the country, I mean in the deep woods miles from anybody? I have. It is not an easy thing to just "go do". I have no idea how old you are but at my age I would not want to try and learn that all over.
I understand that it wouldn't be a good choice for everyone; I'm hoping we can brainstorm some new ideas here with this discussion. As for myself, No I have never just lived in the wilderness. I have done extensive camping, backpacking, hunting and fishing though. My dad taught me to shoot before I can remember and would take me out on hunting trips with him when I was 3 or 4. I am planning on spending about a month in the bush, with only about a weeks worth of food to see if I can handle it beforehand. Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtman Uh oh, I don't feel good. I wonder what it could be? Sorry nearest road is 30 miles and there is no traffic on it anyway except for the occasional "patrol" which is who you are trying to avoid. If they find you they are going to find where you came from and any who are left.
Trust me this is also something I have given thought to. I'm not too worried about getting sick, but I suppose injury would be one of the biggest dangers. A cut or a broken leg could be life threatening. Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtman Unless you are willing to be assimilated they do not want you here, that leaves two choices. Leave while you still can or two die.
Well like you, I hope they will be exposed and defeated before it comes down to this, but I want to be ready just in case. As for leaving, where would you go? Is any country truly safe or would you just be buying yourself a bit more time. Don't get me wrong the basic idea I have presented is just that, one idea. Are there other options I am missing?

Curtman | 01-14-2007 09:12 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Out of range and away from any dense population areas. Fortunately I am not raising toddlers and am able to travel quick and light. The survivalist are of the consensus south of the equator is the best spot but not just for the reasons you are asking. They also believe it is a better value and standard of living. By that I mean less oppressive. These areas are not going to be so quick to sign on to the NWO and as you can see throughout history they are very territorial. Heading out with the guys for breakfast. Have a good day.

Quixote2 | 01-14-2007 12:54 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Recently we have been seeing big names buying property or moving to Costa Rica and Paraguay.

Anty Ep | 01-14-2007 01:54 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahlil Gibran (Post 473514) Exactly. If you are hauling a bug-out bag you basically are a refugee...the worst possible situation.
man you got that right. dig in, dig in, dig in. if one is living someplace you need to "bug out" from, then I hope you're making lots of money living there because it's a big risk as to whether if when TSHTF you will be able to "escape and evade" the riotous thronging masses.

RiverRat | 01-14-2007 06:51 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? :cool2: There will be no safe places in the US to dig in... Sure,some will be better than others,short term. Long term,all bets are off. Technology will be used to locate the swamp dwellers and those hiding out in the big woods by satellite and heat signature. Underground will be your only protection from detection. It might be possible to live in a cave system or remote underground bunker for years...if you avoid leaving traces of your presence. Day and night you would need to wear a mylar space blanket to hide your heat signature if you plan on going topside/outside for food or water. It could be done...nothing is impossible. Just defeat the technology and avoid all contact with other humans until the crisis is over,or slowly make a careful,calculated run for the southern border if it all goes haywire permanently. Wilderness survival skills will be a necessity in this worst case Road Warrior scenario...but if it's slavery or death...you don't have a lot to lose. I really hope it doesn't come down to anything so drastic...but be prepared to kill to survive. Try to imagine a hybrid scenario of THE STAND and LORD OF THE FLYS mixed into one if the system breaks down completely. Throw in LUCIFER'S' HAMMER for starters and mix well with LOGAN'S' RUN. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Kahlil Gibran | 01-14-2007 07:13 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat (Post 473999) Try to imagine a hybrid scenario of THE STAND and LORD OF THE FLYS mixed into one if the system breaks down completely. Throw in LUCIFER'S' HAMMER for starters and mix well with LOGAN'S' RUN.
I was hoping for John Norman's Gor novels kinda fun... :haha:

Lore | 01-14-2007 07:52 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Thorgrim: I had a vivid dream once about helping with evacuation procedures on the outskirts of Calgary, near the ski hill on the Trans Canada Highway. Thousands of people were being loaded into buses as a mushroom cloud rose over downtown. It's a fact that Alberta's oilsands constitute one of just a few big strategic prizes in post-Peak North America, but it seems ridiculous to think that Calgary might be vulnerable in a geopolitical sense...

REV127 | 01-14-2007 08:09 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Space blankets really aren't the ticket against thermal detection. The noise is enough to give you away if there's anybody on the ground but the main thing is the space blanket just doesn't work as advertised. If you own one you can put it against your skin for a while and then feel the temperature. Sure, the mylar is thin enough it'll dump its heat quick once the source(you) is removed but it won't really make you invisible. A cardboard box, umbrella, leafy tree and many other things work as well. You might as well wear a loosefitting cloak. The equipment itself doesn't work *that* well anyway, if you were in some bushes and got down on your hands and knees your distorted outline could be mistaken for a deer. Cops chasing criminals who run off into the woods not infrequently manage to walk down a rabbit or somesuch because they thought it was some portion of the badguy's anatomy sticking out from under the brush. It will get very expensive blowing up every deer, pig, bunny and coon in the woods because it might be an "enemy combatant." Underground definately works, I'm sure you all remember the report about the Vietnam vet who eluded the police for some period of time by hiding out in tunnels he'd dug on his property and hence frustrating their attempts at thermal detection. People look and behave quite a bit like other animals when seen from above, one of the major distinctions is the ammount of energy we produce and use. Without fire and electricity you become much more difficult to detect or identify. You can also reverse this on your pursuers by making warm things that look like people but aren't, making things that look like your camp but aren't, and the like. If I have to bug out I'm as likely to pose as homeless as to head into the swamp. I can live a long time in the swamp or on the ocean though, and not be easy to find. You pay your money and you take your chances.

RiverRat | 01-14-2007 11:09 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? :cool1: REV127...I have a couple of reflective mylar blankets that are 8 mil...not the wimpy disposable trash.Pretty tough too... I could make a temporary shelter out of the thing and doubt any heat would be detectable even at close range. Helicopters,scout planes,etc. was what I had in mind....ground forces aren't going to get close enough to mistake me for a suspicious lump or a weather balloon. If they get that close they are already dead men walking. Your big problem will be the fact they probably have night vision equipment. You need to see them before they see you when darkness falls. Just thinking out loud here.... At this rate we are bordering on a covert tactical warfare discussion. Maybe someone should start a new thread...maybe not. It might come down to that...but I hope not. I have no desire to revisit the jungles of Viet Nam and Cambodia again... Homeless/incognito ? Might work in the beginning of a meltdown. Mass confusion is your best friend... After the big roundup you would have to act like a homeless crazy person or a deaf mute to avoid blowing your escape intentions and avoid scrutiny. Of course you take the risk of being shot out of hand by some yahoo who figures one less non productive scum ball is no loss to the big picture...lot's of psycho trigger happy Neocon Militia to figure into the final equation of your game plan. Lot's of good points REV127...you've did your homework. I hope neither one of us has to put it into practice for survival. :cool1: :cool1: :cool1:

Anty Ep | 01-14-2007 11:19 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat (Post 473999) :cool2: There will be no safe places in the US to dig in... Sure,some will be better than others,short term. Long term,all bets are off. .....
Ha, let me say this-- if there was a total collapse of federal and state governments, then "WARLORDS" will appear very quickly and begin clearing unfriendlies MUY PRONTO making plenty of "living space" for peaceful and decent folks to live. Right now I believe that the central government is actually enforcing disorder, and that in the absence of their intrusions, a feudalistic and traditional way of life would resume very quickly. Now why would I hide out under a mylar blanket to miss the aktion? :birthday: You saw how quickly neighborhoods got together during Katrina-- the ones who werent "sunk in the mud" ;-)

RiverRat | 01-14-2007 11:48 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? :cool1: Anty Ep....you're an optimist...or you're joking. Don't know how to evaluate it. Warlords ? Yep...we are in total agreement.The rats and snakes of society will fill any vacuum left by authority very quickly. The Postman scenario comes to mind...just add the crew from Road Warrior... Katrina ? Suppose not one public agency was sent to help and they were on their own permanently ? The rest of the US was in total chaos... Still want to migrate down to New Orleans and take your chances ? Just call me antisocial and wary of armed Creoles bearing stolen loot... :cool1: :cool1: :cool1: Good point on the disorder...smoke and mirrors for the sheep. Feudal ? Damn,I haven't heard that one in a while... Well...back to the old castle with the alligators in the moat... :D :D :D :D

REV127 | 01-15-2007 12:35 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? The mylar should work fine strung up like a tarp shelter, I'd want to make it irregular in shape however, a cold rectangular spot under the wrong circumstances could be just as bad as a warm human outline. Then again in other places it will look like a discarded fridge or oven. It's worth getting at least a bargain basement Gen 1 NV monocular not so much so you can see in the dark but so you can detect active IR illumination. If you're well hidden NVG won't help the badguys spot you but an IR laser would give away their position pretty quick. The right move always depends on where the other pieces on the board are. I see homeless as an option because they are often overlooked and disdained, an option for a police state that hasn't yet fallen into internal armed conflict. Bums do get hassled occasionally, but mostly just shunned or forced to move along somewhere out of view so they won't be an embarassment to the state. Of course I wouldn't be wanting to live like that, I'd be doing other things and just borrowing the persona as a disguise. On that note, when I was a kid we used to play in the storm drains, we could go all over town and even built club houses down there. Abandoned buildings tend to be somebody's territory, which can work for or against you depending on how deep you want your cover to be. I can certainly play warlord if I find myself in a situation where there is a total collapse of order. I'd have to agree with the idea that it certainly does appear that the current regime allows violent and confrontational criminals a long leash to menace the sheep. My state's stand your ground self defense law is awfully radical in the US. If you think about it just about everybody knows who the badguys are, where the crack houses are, etc. If somebody really wanted to deal with the gang problem it would be dealt with already. As far as my dig in scenario, I'll actively patrol my local area. I know the terrain, who belongs and who doesn't and I'm a crack shot. It's better not to let the badguys get established in your area in the first place. I can survive indefinately in a rustic but comfortable fashion based off what I currently have on my place and I have a large wilderness area in my backyard to run to if I must. It's important to have options. I honestly don't see an armed civilian uprising in the name of liberty here in the US. I believe we'll just sink further into a paranoid police state with faulty economic practices. I believe those faulty economic practices will spell the end for the police state, shake up society, and some new but not necessarily worlds better will rise from the rubble. Given this circumstance I decided that for the moment it is best just to live beyond the state's power centers. If things get increasingly worse I'd be looking harder at the sea. I've given some thought to having a small cargo ship of some sort and doing some trading between nations. I can still make money and live life, but most of my time will be spent where there aren't any megalomaniacs trying to lord it over me. I just got done watching the Firefly series and I could really identify with Mal when he was explaining that with the ship no matter how long the arm of the alliance got they could always just move out a little further. I don't know about the rest of you but TSHTF for me many years ago, every day for me is just surviving the fall in the best style I can, strengthening my position while the enemies of peace and freedom burn themselves up in the vain effort to hold onto power they were never fit to wield. I may not outlast them, but my descendants will. Everything that I do I do for them so that someday, perhaps many generations from now, they will have the resources to find freedom and hold onto it, whether that be in our tribal homeland or some strange new place beyond the bounds of this world.

AMforPM | 01-15-2007 02:33 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Tribes do seem to work better for humans, on the whole. When we know each other we know who is suited for what and in many cultures sort ourselves into very functional small communities. Yet some kind of globalism is, I think, inevitable. That being a wholesome set of laws of fair trade and confederation, leaving lots of breathing room for true liberty and creativity, seems the trick of being connected yet free. How bad it will get depends on so many things, but one that keeps coming to my mind is how many 'them' we seem to expect there to be. Already almost nobody likes the notion of chipping and the excessively harsh laws have people confused as to how to address leadership gone openly mad. So as push comes more to shove I am thinking 'them' may get to be a pretty small number, and the big bunch of 'not them' then has to relearn discussion that does not involve name calling and a lot of anger. We will have a lot of decisions to make and ways of organizing to try.

Infidel | 01-15-2007 03:01 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? The essence of survivalism is to live another day to write a memoir. It is not about mylar bags and bugging out. Theory of Evolution teaches us that survival is for the fittest there are few definitions of the word FIT and all of them FIT for survival purposes If you are physically FIT, you will fare better in most disaster situations If you FIT better than others into a little hole in the wall, while the avalanche sweeps everyone away, you will fare better If you FIT yourself like a bolt into whatever machine that happens to be the SYSTEM at the time, you will fare better ADAPT or DIE This is the essence of Survivalism Here are some more definitions think about them Definitions of fit on the Web: * suit: be agreeable or acceptable to; "This suits my needs" * be the right size or shape; fit correctly or as desired; "This piece won't fit into the puzzle" * meet: satisfy a condition or restriction; "Does this paper meet the requirements for the degree?" * make fit; "fit a dress"; "He fitted other pieces of paper to his cut-out" * insert or adjust several objects or people; "Can you fit the toy into the box?"; "This man can't fit himself into our work environment" * match: be compatible, similar or consistent; coincide in their characteristics; "The two stories don't agree in many details"; "The handwriting checks with the signature on the check"; "The suspect's fingerprints don't match those on the gun" * a display of bad temper; "he had a fit"; "she threw a tantrum"; "he made a scene" * paroxysm: a sudden uncontrollable attack; "a paroxysm of giggling"; "a fit of coughing"; "convulsions of laughter" * conform to some shape or size; "How does this shirt fit?" * meeting adequate standards for a purpose; "a fit subject for discussion"; "it is fit and proper that you be there"; "water fit to drink"; "fit for duty"; "do as you see fit to" * the manner in which something fits; "I admired the fit of her coat" * equip: provide with (something) usually for a specific purpose; "The expedition was equipped with proper clothing, food, and other necessities" * fit(p): (usually followed by `to' or `for') on the point of or strongly disposed; "in no fit state to continue"; "fit to drop"; "laughing fit to burst"; "she was fit to scream"; "primed for a fight"; "we are set to go at any time" * match: make correspond or harmonize; "Match my sweater" * burst: a sudden flurry of activity (often for no obvious reason); "a burst of applause"; "a fit of housecleaning" * physically and mentally sound or healthy; "felt relaxed and fit after their holiday"; "keeps fit with diet and exercise"

TheSimpleton | 01-15-2007 08:29 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? History will illuminate this passage. In general, people hunker down. There are many reasons for this, but I'd bring up the core reasons: children, farming, knowledge of a specific area, ability to stock goods and tools. The key would be the first. Bugging may be fine for you old-timers, but what about your grandchildren? Or the neighbors? Okay, let's look at bugging. Native people tried this in the US and were run down, ground to a powder exceeding fine. However, missing the front edge of the storm allowed them to return to their cousin on the rez without being shot. Where else has it worked? Fleeing Germany in '32-'38, but you need somewhere to go. Italy would not have been a good choice. As cultures, I'd say almost none are nomadic, but there are the Finns, the Lakota, etc, and even the MicMac and Algonquin were moderately nomadic. So let's look at this differently: If you're deeply invested in one place, you're a target, with too much wealth, information, about only one area. If you're nomadic, you lack a material base and historically are the whipping boy, a 2nd class citizen who can be shot without recourse. This would depend on what you need, but I think your question is on the mark: probably any of us are base-centered people, coming from a location and material-based culture. If you're in the Merchant Marine, Army lifer, or trucker, count yourself excepted. So your first base would be to get what you need in the best place you can get it. But it doesn't stop there. In Russia, Germany, for natives worldwide, unstable places like Serbia, Africa, etc, you never know when the knock at the door will come and regardless of whether they take the farm (Zimbabwe) or you have to shoot your way out (Armenia-Turks) or if you just see things get narrower and narrower (Germany), you must flee and life is forever changed and all your base is lost. Worse, you cannot guarantee that you will be able to get to your 2nd location or supplies. That's just the fact, since the future environment can only be guessed at. In that case, you would be advised to have a rollback position where you can walk out the door with a suitcase (what here call BoB) and, like Thoreau's house, not be much more put out than before. How to do that depends on what you anticipate you most need, but I'm quite sure that knowledge and psychological faith will be unparalleled assets. I expect that there will be a long, grinding dysfunction like the Soviet experiment, where at last you cannot even get food and clothes, and your neighbors sell you for them, and for their own safety. That's not just a guess, it's what happens whenever central government gets large enough to be a central planner and total force. It doesn't fall easily. If you want to know the best island, look at who did best in the FSU before 1987 or who did best when it dissolved. I would say this: what you most need are human contact. You have your stake somewhere, and when things go bad, you see your former boss, or brother in-law and get along at his house. And when he's in trouble, you take him in the same. Orlov is clear that THIS is why the FSU did so well in such poor circumstances. This is your dig-in and bug-out plan at the same time. The best of both worlds without the liability of losing it all or of being oppressed at a refugee when disfranchised. Often here they look at humans as being a liability. They are also your strongest asset, and far more helpful than they appear. Even the unready ones. Solution: mutual liability pact, beit spoken or unspoken. TS "If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs..."

RiverRat | 01-15-2007 09:00 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? :cool1: For you...The Simpleton. Go back and read your FSU history. One of the only reasons the FSU went down as it did was the fact that there was less than 2% private ownership of real estate per se. Socialistic ownership of dwellings meant almost no one was thrown in the street while the bankers and government sold off the country to foreign investors and plundered the country for personal profit and power. That won't happen in the US...it will be neighbor against neighbor fighting for anything they can steal,loot,or murder for to eat and survive. Your neighbor will shoot you if you even thought about asking for food or shelter for your family when he has his own to protect. This is not the FSU and it never will be....you need to get that trust your neighbors and friends to help you out of your system and get real. Might have worked in the FSU where you had a roof over your head and a few tomato plants in the backyard but throw 100 million people out in the street homeless and see how high your FSU mentality flys... Sorry...it just won't work in the US...trust no one...trust will get your head blown off. The less human contact...the safer you are. :cool1: :cool1: :cool1: :cool1:

TLM | 01-15-2007 09:39 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Hmm. Get the latest bug-out anti-thermal detection jacket straight off the fashion runway in italy. Be stealthy and stylish all at the same time :-) :applause_ http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/2...ion_italy.jpg?

RiverRat | 01-15-2007 10:01 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? :cool1: Wow TLM....that looks like an ideal TSHTF urban survival coat. :ARMS1: :ARMS1: :ARMS1: :ARMS1: Low heat signature built in....:eek: :eek: :eek: Might as well go in style while you're in the woods. :D :D :D Doubles as a rescue signal mirror Those damn Italians are a jump ahead of us. Wonder if it comes in Gold ? :cool1: :cool1: :cool1: :cool1:

Ghost Recon | 01-15-2007 10:18 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Always have a bug-out plan...just in case. I remember reading on another board....one lady anounced that she and here husband would bug-in no matter what. One day last summer she looked out the window and saw a brush fire rapidly approaching her house. All of a sudden they had to bug out and it was panic city. How does one gather up a bunch of loose cans on a shelf and/or grab a bunch of heavy 5 gallon pails and carry it all up the stairs. Everything else is scattered about the house. Very time consuming. Lets see...where is that pack? Where is that duffle bag? I think it's in the spare bedroom. Nope not there. Well fortunately the fire stalled out do to lack of fuel. But they learned a valuable lesson and now have a bug-out plan. And have at least some things packed and ready to go just in case. My Kelty pack and a large dufle bag stays loaded all the time. I can grab those two as I run out the door. The freezdried #10 cans stay in the original boxes. I can load 5 cases on my dolly and have it in the car in a matter of minutes. If I have more time, I'll grab some of the heavier stuff. I like the option of going on foot and/or by car.

Kahlil Gibran | 01-15-2007 10:59 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat (Post 474502) That won't happen in the US...it will be neighbor against neighbor fighting for anything they can steal,loot,or murder for to eat and survive. Your neighbor will shoot you if you even thought about asking for food or shelter for your family when he has his own to protect. This is not the FSU and it never will be....you need to get that trust your neighbors and friends to help you out of your system and get real.` Sorry...it just won't work in the US...trust no one...trust will get your head blown off. The less human contact...the safer you are.
Once again I find myself agreeing with RiverRat. TeeVee and TPTB have intentionally and systematically destroyed mutual "trust" in America on purpose. Boy Scouts are now a "hate" group. On teevee it is all about stabbing your teammate in the back to get them voted off the Island before they vote you off the Island. They stab each other in the back in the Apprentice hoping that The Donald tells somebody else "you're fired" before he tells you. Family...the basic unit of any group...has been intentionally destroyed too. Fathers are depicted as buffoons and not as leaders. Wives and children are expected/encouraged to disrespect him. Schools and Family Services are the new authority over our children. :rolleyes: destroying the Boy Scouts and their Be Prepared motto was a biggie. They knew what they were doing. Now you are on your own waiting for FEMA.

TheSimpleton | 01-15-2007 11:03 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? It's not that I don't agree: the safest place to be is in the wilds, as far from man as possible. They are the only predator except disease. However, they are your support as well as your hazard. Absolutely, the FSU had no housing turnover, which Orlov says was a key stability. However, what do you think the banks will do once they have evicted enough that their balance sheets are full? People will already be living with extended tribes under one roof to save money. There will be a great many houses empty and subject to arson, like in Detroit and Flint. No--they will WANT those houses occupied, but even worst case, they will tie it to some WPA-Government debt-for-work program. How else can economy keep going, and make equipment for the war effort? If people ARE homeless, they really WILL turn on their government, since they have nothing left to lose. Only by keeping something to lose can they hope to retain cooperation--even by cooperation by fear. I don't know your neighborhood or friends, but we would be poor indeed to have no contacts to fall back on, beit family or friends, or new allies now disenfranchised and waking under the new systemic shock. People here are just ahead of the curve, that's all. Disillusionment dawns slowly, and with it the new paradigm. Already we're seeing the beginning of tax revolts in the States. The people will not be in the same state then that they are now. You may be prepared, and they may have not very much, but they are still useful to you. Their need is now your ally as much as your danger. They will go the store for you to share a potato, while you stay safe at home. They can watch all night for a hot broth so you can sleep. There are hazards as with all connections, but look at the advantages, not just the liabilities. Poisonous plants have uses too. Look at Apocynaceae: it's a weed, it's of no normal use, lives in the swamps. It's called Dogbane because of the neurotoxin. You can see it that way and use it that way--for killing, as a mortal danger to you and yours. But it's also "Indian Hemp"--because it's one of the best fibers, even for water-use like fishnets. It grows easily and makes good tinder and I seem to remember that the neurotoxin could be used in fishing. So is it deadly or is it helpful? People are not uncommonly like this, or perhaps more like briars--they stick and cling to you, seem to have little use, but a briar patch around you could prove useful. Useful enough you might want to be tossed into it, even to make your rabbit-escape elsewhere. Use things for what they are. TS "It's what people know about themselves inside that makes them afraid." --High Plains Drifter

Anty Ep | 01-15-2007 11:19 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Warlords will not just be bad dudes. They will be brave men from among the good folk, who quickly take action for the benefit of their community and so gain retainers quickly and become, "warlords" in the feudal sense. Go back and read the history of the Germanic tribes before the Franks established the Holy Roman Empire. Tribes were groups of kin-related people in a definite location lead by junior chieftans. Essentially, they were confederations, lead by local strongmen, and the bigger tribes merely confederations of confederations. That is how Germanics organized themselves-- really the Greeks were not so different, being a confederation of cities, essentially, until conquered by Macedon, except the groups of freemen in their little cities would vote more than Northerners. The only Europeans that showed a strong instinct towards centralized government were the Romans and the Gallo-Romans and then the Franks, and also the English. Pretty much everywhere else, all the later "Empires" were more confederations than anything else and that includes most of the history of the "Holy roman Empire." "Centralized government" does not suit people of European blood and it never really has. We chafe against it by nature. That has its downside-- we're hard to organize. The upside to that, is that we bring about spontaneous cooperative order quickly. We LIKE to get along, and behave, and have the appearance of order and society. We CRAVE IT. And so if the central government collapses-- well, first off, who cares? 90% of social services from fire and police to schools are administered by STATE and LOCAL government. The feds mostly just pass out grants, set rules for commerce, organize and maintain national defense, and hunt certain types of criminals. The federal govt can go away and most places especially in the great plains, the northwest, the rural south, the midwest, the "hinterlands" if you will-- will be a-ok fine. It's the big cities that will crumble into ruin, chaos, and dystopia. LA, NYC, places like that-- and fast. And without the feds to stop "the people of the hinterland" from taking their REVENGE on the cities-- and yes without the federales there to stop it, it will look like REVENGE as the thronging unruly and unproductive masses of the cities either starve to death or are shot as they throng forward at the perimeter-- without the federales there to stop it, this will happen. The problem with "survivalism" is that it is a thing that is populated by extreme individualists. Guys always thinking of themselves. But what about your family or your neighbors? Regular society is not like this. Hiding out under a mylar blanket is no way to survive. Your little kids-- if you got em-- will not last long in the bush hiding out under a mylar blanket. Your wife will not stay long under that blanket. She will find the warlord or the guy with the food and take the kids with her. No. If you want to PROTECT your family, if you want to KEEP them, or if you want to GAIN one if you dont have one yet, then YOU must become the WARLORD. The way to survive is band together with your neighbors and learn to procure food, medical care, and organize community defense with rifles. That is the kind of "survivalism" that can and will happen very quickly in this country, and it will be a hell of a lot better than hiding out like Eric Rudolph. I'll bet there are a lot of Mormons on this board and they know exactly what I'm talking about. One more thing. For the loners on here. Dont think that the "day after" all the politicians etc will suddenly not be possessed of their people skills. On day 2, the first leaders people look to will be the leaders they had before the "collapse." And they WILL have a plan if not a good one. So, if "survivalists" or "patriots" or "Johnny Reb" or "Whites" or whomever plan on leading after some possible social disorder, then those groups had better have organization, people skills, and a plan BEFOREHAND.

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Gold & Silver Forum - Bug Out or Dig In?

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thorgrim | 01-15-2007 11:20 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Good points everyone; there is nothing I can really add to the discussion at this point. One thing that did stick out was what GR said. You should be ready to bug out at any time, you never know what might happen. I keep most of my survival gear in one spot and organized so that if something were to happen I could load the most important things in my truck in five minutes. You don't want to be trying to remember where things are and what to take if the time comes to bug out.

Anty Ep | 01-15-2007 11:25 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Quote:
Originally Posted by thorgrim (Post 474673) Good points everyone; there is nothing I can really add to the discussion at this point. One thing that did stick out was what GR said. You should be ready to bug out at any time, you never know what might happen. I keep most of my survival gear in one spot and organized so that if something were to happen I could load the most important things in my truck in five minutes. You don't want to be trying to remember where things are and what to take if the time comes to bug out.
You must be single. Kids dont move very quickly. You can have all their bags packed and in the car and plan on putting them in at the wee hours of the morning in their pjs and it will still take you an hour to get on the road. People with families will only be bugging out if they are going to their grandpa's farm or their mountain cabin or their lake house or whatever may serve as a survival retreat if you will.

GOLD DUCK | 01-15-2007 07:33 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Quote:
Originally Posted by TLM (Post 474535) Hmm. Get the latest bug-out anti-thermal detection jacket straight off the fashion runway in italy. Be stealthy and stylish all at the same time :-) :applause_ http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/2...ion_italy.jpg?
QWAK,That looks like the "FOIL bubble" insolation I used on my HOT TUB and CELING to reflect LIGHT and HEAT! :haha: I bet you could FIGHT OIL fires in THAT coat and not feel the HEAT! :albertein :tongue: the DUCK

Tn...Andy | 01-15-2007 07:44 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? From James Wesley Rawles site "Survival Blog" http://www.survivalblog.com/2007/01/...r_article.html I'm dismayed to see such strategies proposed again and again, usually by folks who have never actually attempted to fill--much less actually shoulder--their "everything that I'll need" backpack. It is incredibly naive to think that anyone can "head for the hills" with just what you can carry, and survive for an extended period. Note that his overly simplistic "carry heirloom seeds and blue poly tarp" approach does not take into account anything about tools needed to cultivate what he'll grow, containers he'll need to store what he grows or gathers, and tools/pots/pans that he'll need to process/grind and cook what he hunts, gathers, or grows. Nor does it address basics like cages for small livestock, or fencing to protect gardens. How can you expect to carry all that on your back? Unless someone is incredibly fortunate, the odds are that any "mobile" retreating approach will very quickly reduce them to the category of "refugee" at best, or to room temperature, at worst. The history of the previous century --particularly its two world wars and its countless civil wars--taught us that life is, as Hobbes put it, "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short" for refugees. The last thing that you want to be is a refugee. By definition, going mobile means foregoing the "deep larder" advantage of a fixed retreat. It would be foolish to give that up. Ditto for the often touted "RV land-mobile retreating" approach. As I've stated before: In a full scale WTSHTF situation, mobility for the sake of mobility in essence only gives you the opportunity to wander into ambush after ambush. I go into further detail about the fallacies of mobile retreating strategies (backpack, vehicular, and sailboat) in in my book "Rawles on Retreats and Relocation." In the same book I also describe some commonsense fixed location retreat alternatives All of the preceding is not to say that you shouldn't own a Get Out of Dodge ("GOOD") backpack. You should have one, especially if you don't live year round at your intended retreat. (The pack is only intended for a very short period, to get you to your retreat, in the event that for whatever reason a vehicle is not available.) You should dread ever having to use that pack when forced to abandon your well-stocked retreat and taking off on foot to fend for yourself. This pretty much mirrors my opinion.

Kahlil Gibran | 01-15-2007 07:58 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Quote:
Originally Posted by Tn...Andy (Post 475153) This pretty much mirrors my opinion.
My bugout bag was just to get me as far as Andy's Place. :D

REV127 | 01-15-2007 09:34 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahlil Gibran (Post 475169) My bugout bag was just to get me as far as Andy's Place. :D
Reminds me of a thread we had a little while ago... The JWR response to that contrarian investment article reminded me of an oversight I feel I made when I ordered my seed for this year's planting, gourds. It sure would be handy to be able to grow my own tupperware.

RiverRat | 01-15-2007 10:32 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? :cool1: Posted by Anty Ep: Quote:
One more thing. For the loners on here. Dont think that the "day after" all the politicians etc will suddenly not be possessed of their people skills. On day 2, the first leaders people look to will be the leaders they had before the "collapse." And they WILL have a plan if not a good one. So, if "survivalists" or "patriots" or "Johnny Reb" or "Whites" or whomever plan on leading after some possible social disorder, then those groups had better have organization, people skills, and a plan BEFOREHAND.
Personally I hope the politicians are the first casualties in any SHTF scenario. Since ineptitude and stupidity are their daily motto and method of operation why would any sane person listen to anything they had to say ? The politicians would be the first people I would take out as a warloard to thin the stupid out of the flock. No skills,no brains,absolutely nothing to contribute...these people are already the prime cause of social disorder...top priority will be to eliminate all politicians with extreme prejudice. You are right about one thing Anty....when and if TSHTF I will be overrun with sheep. Not for food and mutual support but for a leader. My neighbors,my friends,and my relatives will demand someone take the place of authority and bail them out of the SHTF situation. When war starts the antigun nuts will head full speed for the nearest protection and the guy with the biggest,baddest guns. Hard to turn down starving relatives....one of the reasons I would prefer to be in South America when it comes down. Not that I don't care about them...because I can't save the world and my family too. They can get prepared just as well as I can...instead they put their faith in a corrupt system that has no intention of doing anything to protect or feed them....not my fault or responsibility.They were warned... Sorry I am such a lone wolf...I don't need anything they have. They have had years to acquire survival skills and prepare for their own family safety.Since they choose to ignore the possibility...let them starve. Groupthink is a social disaster...I hope they pat themselves on the back as they line them up for the firing squads and prison camps. Me ? I think old Jerimiah Johnson had the right idea...two can keep a secret if one is dead. :cool1: :cool1: :cool1: :cool1:

TheSimpleton | 01-16-2007 09:11 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? I just have to be a wiseaker here: Good thing those frontiersmen brought their own "tools needed to cultivate what he'll grow, containers he'll need to store what he grows or gathers, and tools/pots/pans that he'll need to process/grind and cook what he hunts, gathers, or grows. Nor does it address basics like cages for small livestock, or fencing to protect gardens," whenever they walked into the Kentucky wilds or Sierra Nevadas. In fact, I remember all the nomadic peoples doing this. What's that? They made everything with a hatchet instead? Well, I'll be darned. One thing I'd bring as a refuge you wouldn't think of, and that's a good shovel, not your NATO 3-fold. If you're starting with dirt and sticks, there's nothing you need more than a shovel and a hatchet/axe. I agree: you will NOT be bringing your house on your back. But that doesn't mean you can't leave in freedom. Almost everything in your house is unnecessary for your survival. TS

bl96S5eu | 01-16-2007 09:29 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? What was the old T.V. documentary (or something similar) where some guy went out into the wilderness with, if I recall correctly, just a tool or two and built a cabin and everything else he needed to survive? It seems like it was done in the 60's or 70's.

Anty Ep | 01-16-2007 09:58 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Quote:
Originally Posted by bl96S5eu (Post 475335) Actually Anty I would have to respectfully disagree, it is about repetition with kids. The wife and I were talking about making our family more 'efficient' for emergencies and have now teamed the kids up in pairs where the older is the lead for the younger. We call it a buddy system (much like the military) and have been having drills where we see how quickly a 'team' can load up for things like ice cream or just for the sake of saying they were the fastest. Ours range from 12 to 3 but it had been both fun and informative plus our family is so naturally competitive anyway that it is really just a given that one team wants to be the best. The next test that is pushing the limits somewhat is having a fire drill during sleeping hours when it is cold and wet outside, that one ought to get my wife and I some fans.
ha, that is fantastic. you definitely have to drill if you want to be able to move fast. drilling also helps cultivate "automatic compliance" which is every parents dream. lol

TheSimpleton | 01-16-2007 10:04 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? For edicifation and entertainment, here's some links, all pics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_crib http://www.braintan.com/intro/wetdry2.htm http://www.heritage.nf.ca/aboriginal/speck.html (do these guys look like they're lugging wire chicken coops?) http://www.amonline.net.au/snapshots/arid/shovels.htm Shovels used up through the middle ages--add metal strip. http://www.spoonlady.com/product3.shtml (didn't find char-scrape aboriginal bowls in time. This is why a small curved knife can be better than a large bear-killing one, as well as for skinning.) http://www.aircav.com/survival/asch08/asch08p12.html No hooks or lines here. http://www.wilderness-survival.net/weapons-4.php not to mention sinew and rawhide. Think modest, like squirrels, which are very tough. Interesting site here. http://www.wynja.com/arch/cooking.html Having a nice cast-iron potjie or brass kettle was much desired since the copper age, but not necessary. Bark will also suffice, or ash-baking, or sand-steaming. Ash cakes: http://www.journalofantiques.com/July01/hearthfeb03.htm http://www.wakehurst.org/collections...tervessel.html Makes a good dipper, but a birchbark ladle can be made with a single strip. http://www.pinewoodforge.com/Russian.spoon.html Or a village-size kettle, Same tech: http://jumaka.com/birchbarkcanoe/bui...ge/shaping.htm Stone chip knife, not hard to make: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/2970/scraper.htm How to make (crude): http://www.aircav.com/survival/asch12/asch12p02.html Glass is easier to find these days, and can be more useful. Need I go on, or is this enough? DON'T CARRY YOUR HOUSE WITH YOU. Make what you need wherever you go and call it home. Attachment to material goods will be the death of you. In the largest sense THAT is what all the present trouble is about. TS

Anty Ep | 01-16-2007 10:07 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? When those sheep turn up at your doorstep, you got to take em, then you got to turn them into wolves. As pack leader of the wolves, well armed, YOU will become the warlord. One of the things people need to mentally prepare themselves for, is doing unto others before they do unto you. Or, put differently, you and your team may have to take "Stuff" from the bad guys both to aid in your survival and before they use it on you. A better mentality than lone wolf, is the "feud" or "hatfield-mccoy" mentality because that mentality actually works in times of minimal government and material scarcity. I find that a lot of people from rural south have a fantastic capacity for this kind of thinking, call it "clan" thinking if you will. But just like in a fight, you may be the baddest "ultimate fighter" in the world and three brawlers can still kill you if they can just tackle you and hold you down for a second while the third jumps on your skull and turns it into mush. GROUPS win, individuals die. COHESIVE motivated and disciplined groups win, others lose.

fritzkrieg | 01-16-2007 11:37 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Quote:
Originally Posted by bl96S5eu (Post 475686) What was the old T.V. documentary (or something similar) where some guy went out into the wilderness with, if I recall correctly, just a tool or two and built a cabin and everything else he needed to survive? It seems like it was done in the 60's or 70's.
You're probably thinking of Dick Proenneke, who lived alone in Alaska and built a great little cabin, etc. about 1968. An independent guy if there ever was one. Hard not to admire someone like that. http://www.dickproenneke.com/

Kahlil Gibran | 01-16-2007 12:04 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzkrieg (Post 475865) You're probably thinking of Dick Proenneke, who lived alone in Alaska and built a great little cabin, etc. about 1968. An independent guy if there ever was one. Hard not to admire someone like that. http://www.dickproenneke.com/
That's the guy. PBS stations usually broadcast this video during their annual fund raising drives.

RiverRat | 01-16-2007 01:19 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? :D Do not be misled.... It was on the RED GREEN SHOW on Canadian TV. RED built an entire log cabin out of duct tape and 299 plastic patio tables with his handy pocket knife. Didn't look too spectacular but the local bears moved to new digs 40 miles away. I love that show...reminds me of what Scorpio would be like on crack. :D :D :D :D :D Duct tape...a man's best friend.

bl96S5eu | 01-17-2007 12:59 AM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? fritzkrieg, thnx that would be the one.

goldmonkey | 03-26-2007 04:19 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzkrieg (Post 475865) You're probably thinking of Dick Proenneke, who lived alone in Alaska and built a great little cabin, etc. about 1968. An independent guy if there ever was one. Hard not to admire someone like that. http://www.dickproenneke.com/
One Man's Wilderness ... one of my favorite books! Right up there with Adrift by Steven Callahan.

goldmonkey | 03-06-2009 04:14 PM
Re: Bug Out or Dig In? More Readings From One Man's Wilderness The Journals of Richard L. Proenneke 49mb http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online.../proenneke.pdf

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