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TheSimpleton | 09-18-2006 07:53 AM
More hubs A little more on bicycles. Thought someone might find these parts useful: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/l...g/shimano.html or http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/l...her-x-fdd.html Internal hub generators on bike front wheels, $85. Hard to beat solar-recharged flashlights, but 3w halogens will certainly compete as a headlight. Internal hub gears. If you do any woods-time biking then you've probably destroyed your deraileurs in the field at least once. All it takes a twig, something you might find in quanity there. I might add that your expensive disks are easily bent as well. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/nexus.html (Check out the low headlight on his picture) http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/s...cher-hubs.html $165US Or if you have truly deep pockets: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/rohloff.html How they work, for the curious: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/nexus8/ It makes you wonder how many other interesting inventions are out that one never heard of. TS

Halophyte | 09-18-2006 08:46 AM
Re: More hubs 2 Attachment(s) Another "hub" for bicycles ..... a 600 watt gearless hub motor like this one will be mounted on my recumbent cruiser ..... the hub is being spoked on a spare rim for me at my local bike shop. I'll use it in the front wheel drive mode unlike the pic below, I can convert back to a regular recumbent simply by changing front wheel.

TheSimpleton | 09-18-2006 11:41 AM
Re: More hubs Generator Hub with internal drum brake. http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/light...her-x-fdd.html Because an internal hub has no idler gear, the chainlength is set. Therefore you'd need to add an idler to use the front deraileur, or use one of these: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/schlumpf.html In fact, with one of these, you could use the $300US shimano 7-speed hub, and have your 14 gears, instead of a $1000US for an internal 14. BTW, I'm not associated with Sheldon Brown and have never purchased from them. I'm just mining the website for y'all today. TS ...Motivated by walking home after having a 1cm twig turn my expensive rear deraileur into a pretzel. It's not robust kit that needs a bike shop behind it.

Ponce Cuba | 09-18-2006 12:29 PM
Re: More hubs Back in 1972 I bought two bikes hubs for $10.00 that had build in brakes, it worked by the expansion of some metal disks inside......the were made in Germany back in 1939 (I think) , I had the bike shop put the spokes and rim and it worked great. All that there was was the brake wire going from the center of the hub to the handle bar and that was it.....100 times better than the modern disk brakes. Yesterday I got my "Things That You Never New Existed" junk mail and in it there was a pair of bikes pedal with a build in generator that lighted a LED at the tip of the pedal themselves. When I lived in Ca. I used to go to the main library and look at the inventions from the old days and there were many of them that we could use today....... many hiding treasures there lays.

sam | 09-18-2006 12:52 PM
Re: More hubs I had a stock EZ-1 for several years, just like the one in the photos. I gave it away. It's a fun bike, but it is not for serious use. It loves to turn, ... wonderful for low/medium speed cornering. I never bombed down a steep twisty road on it, so I don't know about high speed cornering. I rode it in traffic once, that was enough. I had to concentrate to keep it going straight. Remember 12 speeds of 30 years ago (Nishiki etc)? I could keep those going straight with my eyes closed and hands off the handlebars. I would have kept the EZ-1 for fun riding in my quiet neighborhood, but I need to make room for my next motor scooter. Maybe The EZ-1 would be more stable if motorized, I dunno.... dtnwn

sam | 09-18-2006 01:15 PM
Re: More hubs Ponce Cuba- It was most likely a Sturmey Archer three speed, made in England, I think. Yup they were great, ... still are apparently. I do not agree about coaster (drum) brakes. Caliper brakes on a bicycle wheel's rim work much better, they have a leverage advantage, and they dont fade, but they don't work well when wet. Calipers on a disk, I'm guessing, have become popular recently because on dirt bicycles because they keep the action up high, out of the mud. On automobiles and motorcycles caliper disk brakes are best because they don't fade and they work when wet. When brakes drums get hot they expand, away from the shoes, it's quite possible to run out of pedal. It has happened to me. dtnwn

Ponce Cuba | 09-18-2006 01:23 PM
Re: More hubs By Sam = It was most likely a Sturmey Archer three speed, made in England, I think. Yup they were great, ... still are apparently. Sam? the German hubs that I am talking about all that they did was to act as brakes and nothing more...... it did not have any "three speed", they could go front and rear on your bike. Remember that in 1939 they didn't have any shift gears, I think.

sam | 09-18-2006 01:36 PM
Re: More hubs Hi Ponce Cuba- Well, I learn something every day. I knew of pedal operated drum brakes, and three speed hubs with cable actuated drumbrakes (Sturmey Archer) but not German made, cable operated, brake only hubs.

Sturdly | 09-18-2006 09:26 PM
Re: More hubs Quote:
Originally Posted by Halophyte (Post 360943) Another "hub" for bicycles ..... a 600 watt gearless hub motor like this one will be mounted on my recumbent cruiser ..... the hub is being spoked on a spare rim for me at my local bike shop. I'll use it in the front wheel drive mode unlike the pic below, I can convert back to a regular recumbent simply by changing front wheel.
I looked at the hub motors and test rode a bunch of ebikes at EV Northwest in Seattle and JV Bike in Vancouver B.C. My application is 15% plus grades for a mile at a time around here and in a 26" wheel hub motors don't quite make the grade, literally. The 20" wheel versions can but the wheels...... they're so small. Too squirrelly for in traffic on bad pavement for me. So I am forgetting the hub and looking at bottom bracket through the gears drive. I don't really care for the Cyclone kit as it lacks water resistance and looks like it would add mucho drag when pedaling without assist. Plus you'd need a Shimano dualdrive or a Rohloff internal shift to get full range gearing. I've been in contact with some guys in Australia as that is where the action is currently in bottom bracket drives. Elation ebikes http://elationebikes.com.au and epac power http://epacpower.com.au look worth a try. Like the battery set up and freewheel of the elation best but like the mounting scheme of the epac-X2 better. What do you think Halo?

TheSimpleton | 09-19-2006 10:56 AM
Re: More hubs EV NW is supposed to be the place... Questions: Is it the hub or the batteries that can't take it? EvSolutions.net is a Crystalyte dealer. Apparently Crystalyte is a step over Heinzman hubs, but that's according to the sales pitch. They can over-power them with higher voltage, which overcomes some issues, but then it comes back to batteries, which as we know are lacking, or expensive, or both. He uses http://www.soopah.com/liion_home.html as a battery source. I've thought a Bob or a trailer can work, but is a brutal and inelegant solution. Call me old fashioned, but no one has significantly changed the motor since Tesla in 1890. That suggests whatever DC motor you buy is fine (as long as you have the option to put voltage to 48, 72, 96) but the batteries should be the focus. Any ideas? It's useless if you run out of juice and your bike now weighs 50lbs more. Probably it's higher voltage that will win. The better electric cars run on high voltage, or even AC. AC would be ideal if only there weren't the inverter weight/loss. Giant seems to use the chain drive. Central battery/motor would give good balance. TS

sam | 09-19-2006 01:36 PM
Re: More hubs Sturdly- Until e-bicycles become available with more power and range, a gasoline powered scooter may be your best currently viable solution. Have a look at the only 50cc class scooter I know of that has 16" wheels. Kymco People 50. The latest model is People S 50. It should give you 80mpg, even climbing hills. Kymcos are made in Taiwan, but they have a long standing excellent reputation for quality and service. My Yamaha Zuma has only 10" wheels, and I have no problem with squirreliness in traffic up to 40mph, which is its top speed. With its fat "knobby" tires, I can also ride it offroad (slowly). dtnwn

Ponce Cuba | 09-19-2006 02:01 PM
Re: More hubs 1 Attachment(s) My two 150 cc scootes are doing great, the price went from $1,000 to $1,600.....I got them just in time.

AMforPM | 09-19-2006 02:15 PM
Re: More hubs I loved my old Raleigh 3 speed, but it was not up to steep hills and I went to 10 speed. If these hubs can convert old Raleighs I better see what old bikes are still around in garage sales, etc. I like those strong old heavy steel frames Schwinn used to make. I accidentally jumped a half flight of outdoor stairs once and would not like to have been on a lighter frame.

TheSimpleton | 09-19-2006 02:18 PM
Re: More hubs If you're going to do that, you might as well do this: http://www.realclassic.co.uk/diesel05112800.html http://www.royal-enfield.net/new_bul...eldDiesel1.jpg http://www.peace65.freeserve.co.uk/P...yalenfield.htm Which was seen in India for a while...with a top speed of 30mph. I wish I could find the picture of delivering two full-size milk cans tied to each pannier in rural India. At least the larger tires mean you won't drop a 10" tire between two logs, or bury the chassis in a rut. But you have two things: one, it makes a lot of noise and needs more parts. Two, you can't reverse and go back to all-pedal mode. You could do the same by putting a chainsaw engine on a trailer and running a small generator--or why not the chain? There'd be plenty of power--and a whole lot of noise. Battery technology is moving fast, while petrol is stalled. I'll watch here for a while. TS

sam | 09-19-2006 03:29 PM
Re: More hubs AMforPM- Yup, wish I still had my '50s vintage Raleigh three speed. Spoke the rear wheel with a 7 or 8 speed internal geared hub, give it some modern brakes, replace street tires with hybrids, and it would make a bombproof commuter bike. Check out chromebags TS- We have one mountain bike, two hybrids, and two EZ-3 AX, 27 speed tricycles with decambered rear wheels. Plus a portable repair stand. I have daily errands of 5-10 miles, with 3-5 stops. It would be possible to do them on a bicycle or trike, and sometimes to get some excercise, I do. But a small motorscooter is by far the most efficient, largely because I can ride in traffic right along with the cagers. Can't do that on an e-bike. I my town there has recently been a huge increase in the number of motor scooters and motorcycles on the road, and it's not because it's still warm here. I'm seeing regular old farts like me (not long-haired, bearded old cycle rats on Harleys), who obviously cleaned up old Triumphs, Nortons, Hondas, that have been rusting in their garages for thirty years, and got 'em back on the road. Saw a rattletrap Triumph a few weeks ago, and a beautifully restored Honda just yesterday. Almost forgot: An old pot-bellied guy at my supermarket parking lot yesterday, on a brand spanking new Vino scooter. dtnwn

Halophyte | 09-19-2006 04:45 PM
Re: More hubs 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturdly (Post 361726) I looked at the hub motors and test rode a bunch of ebikes at EV Northwest in Seattle and JV Bike in Vancouver B.C. My application is 15% plus grades for a mile at a time around here and in a 26" wheel hub motors don't quite make the grade, literally. The 20" wheel versions can but the wheels...... they're so small. Too squirrelly for in traffic on bad pavement for me. So I am forgetting the hub and looking at bottom bracket through the gears drive. I don't really care for the Cyclone kit as it lacks water resistance and looks like it would add mucho drag when pedaling without assist. Plus you'd need a Shimano dualdrive or a Rohloff internal shift to get full range gearing. I've been in contact with some guys in Australia as that is where the action is currently in bottom bracket drives. Elation ebikes http://elationebikes.com.au and epac power http://epacpower.com.au look worth a try. Like the battery set up and freewheel of the elation best but like the mounting scheme of the epac-X2 better. What do you think Halo?
The reason I went with a hub motor is simple, I wanted a sealed unit without the mechanical loss of gears, sprokets and chains. I wanted the original ped gearing left alone. I wanted high torque - so I'm fitting it up to the 16 inch front wheel. This 'low geared' arrangement should have great climbing power at the cost of high speed flat land crusing. I consider the bicycle a 'gravity machine'. I don't need power going down hill or the flats. I need power to climb hills and dart around in traffic from a stand still. As most bent riders know, a recumbents handling at low speed leaves something to be desired (they are best at high speeds). The hub motor will eliminate this problem in front wheel drive mode. I wanted to keep the battery weight down as low as possible, so I'm building my own NiCad battery packs instead of using SLA batteries. I'm using a brushed, non geared hub motor. This allows me to bump voltage to 48 volts if I want higher speeds at the same amp draw as 36 volts. I can use just about any over the counter PWM motor controller, this is an issue with brushless motors - they require special OEM controllers. PS, I've also designing a regenerative "coast charging" circuit. Might as well use gravity power to charge back my battery bank while coasting down hill. - can't do that with brushless motors. Here's a pic of that hub motor on a 16 inch front wheel. Battery packs on the rear fender ... makes a compact clean design. .

Halophyte | 09-19-2006 05:12 PM
Re: More hubs Quote:
Originally Posted by sam (Post 361201) I had a stock EZ-1 for several years, just like the one in the photos. I gave it away. It's a fun bike, but it is not for serious use. It loves to turn, ... wonderful for low/medium speed cornering. I never bombed down a steep twisty road on it, so I don't know about high speed cornering. I rode it in traffic once, that was enough. I had to concentrate to keep it going straight. Remember 12 speeds of 30 years ago (Nishiki etc)? I could keep those going straight with my eyes closed and hands off the handlebars. I would have kept the EZ-1 for fun riding in my quiet neighborhood, but I need to make room for my next motor scooter. Maybe The EZ-1 would be more stable if motorized, I dunno.... dtnwn
I think you would be more happy with a long wheelbase recumbent like the TourEasy. Low speed handling is an issue for the CLWB recumbents .... but never say that to a BikeE or Tailwind owner ... If you want something real nimble, try a short wheelbase Rans Rocket or Cycle Genius Sparrow. .

sam | 09-19-2006 06:01 PM
Re: More hubs Halo- I would love to try a Tour Easy. But right now my biggest issue is garage space. Besides two trikes and a small scooter, I have a work bench, a work table, a packing table, a huge tool chest, three barrels of water, a modified bookshelf (for power tools), and a bunch of commercial rack shelving in there. On the shelves there is some storage food but it is mostly stuff for my business. Two bikes are inside the house, and one bike is outside. Did you see the Xtracycle web site? With amount of stuff that can be hauled on a FreeRadical setup, I would think e-motorizing one might be useful. Edit: Forgot the washer, drier, water heater, freezer, pantry, four free-standing cabinets for food/business supplies, a chest of drawers for electrical/plumbing parts, and another commercial rack for long stuff. Was thinking about a tankless water heater to make space, but I don't want to have to deal with upgrading the NG line right now. Oh, and a free standing drill press, a miter saw, a generator, two rolling carts, an air compressor, a hydraulic lift cart, three sizes of B-flute packing material, and three grinder stands need floor space too. Prolly other stuff, but I have to go out there and work now, not figure out how to "make" more space.... dtnwn

Sturdly | 09-19-2006 06:31 PM
Re: More hubs Quote:
Originally Posted by sam (Post 362608) Halo- Did you see the Xtracycle web site? With amount of stuff that can be hauled on a FreeRadical setup, I would think e-motorizing one might be useful. dtnwn
The Stokemonkey kit that Todd sells for these looks pretty powerful. Uses a hub motor with a freewheel to drive a crankset off a tandem through the gear set.

Sturdly | 09-19-2006 06:57 PM
Re: More hubs Quote:
Originally Posted by Halophyte (Post 362542) I wanted high torque - so I'm fitting it up to the 16 inch front wheel. This 'low geared' arrangement should have great climbing power at the cost of high speed flat land crusing. I wanted to keep the battery weight down as low as possible, so I'm building my own NiCad battery packs instead of using SLA batteries. I'm using a brushed, non geared hub motor. This allows me to bump voltage to 48 volts if I want higher speeds at the same amp draw as 36 volts. I can use just about any over the counter PWM motor controller, this is an issue with brushless motors - they require special OEM controllers. .
Wow a 16 incher should make those bents into goats. I've seen a 20 inch rear hubmotor with a 26 inch front wheel. Another option if high torque is required of a hub motor used on a traditional cycle. I don't care for the attitude or handling of a mis matched set like that. http://ebikes.ca usually has some NiCad sets already made up for not too much, ex 48 volt 5 Ah for $145 US, weighs about 12 pounds. A couple of those and you got some real range potential.You're right about the brushed motor controllers and throttles, much cheaper and more universal than the Hall effect stuff.

Sturdly | 09-19-2006 07:23 PM
Re: More hubs Quote:
Originally Posted by sam (Post 362375) Sturdly- Until e-bicycles become available with more power and range, a gasoline powered scooter may be your best currently viable solution. Have a look at the only 50cc class scooter I know of that has 16" wheels. Kymco People 50. The latest model is People S 50. It should give you 80mpg, even climbing hills. Kymcos are made in Taiwan, but they have a long standing excellent reputation for quality and service. My Yamaha Zuma has only 10" wheels, and I have no problem with squirreliness in traffic up to 40mph, which is its top speed. With its fat "knobby" tires, I can also ride it offroad (slowly). dtnwn
A gas scooter is a different kettle of fish than a 20" folder with a hub motor which is about the only thing that would work for my climbing needs. Already picked up an older Honda Elite with 600 total miles on it for $500. Added another $150 for new battery, tail light lense,tubes,tires and tune up parts and that base is covered. Using my car to commute and run errands I don't do on my pedal pusher I only use about 10 gallons of gas a month. So gas would have to get awfully expensive for that to become an issue. The main reason for my ebike interest is that here in Seattle ebikes are treated the same as a regular bike. Use them on sidewalks, bike trails, toss them into the bike racks on transit busses no problem and any accident is covered by my health insurance. Put one of those really nice Staton inc, gas motor kits on it (which was my first choice) and instantly you own a moped. Which nets you license tabs, no transit hauling, bike trail use or insurance coverage in an accident plus you get to outfit it with brake lights, turn signals, etc. Fogetaboudit, total loss of bicycle privileges.

Halophyte | 09-19-2006 07:34 PM
Re: More hubs Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturdly (Post 362646) http://ebikes.ca usually has some NiCad sets already made up for not too much, ex 48 volt 5 Ah for $145 US, weighs about 12 pounds. A couple of those and you got some real range potential.You're right about the brushed motor controllers and throttles, much cheaper and more universal than the Hall effect stuff.
The 48 volt square pac looks like a winner for me. My batteries will be mounted under the seat instead of the trunk. Gotta carry the load somewhere. Thanks for the linky. .

sam | 09-19-2006 08:06 PM
Re: More hubs Hi Sturdly- I understand. For similar reasons, later when I have more time, and more room, I will look into e-bikes for my Honey, who won't ever get a M1 or M2 Calif license endorsement, and me for fun, cuz I like the idea, and I like to tinker with stuff. dtnwn

Sturdly | 09-19-2006 08:37 PM
Re: More hubs Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimpleton (Post 362248) EV NW is supposed to be the place...TS
Eric and the folks at EV NW are great about letting you test ride all of their offerings. Only downside is they sell already converted bikes or factory built ebikes, no kits! JVBikes in BC actually has a wider range of Crystalyte, BionX plus some factory built stuff. You can test ride anything from a Biria or Dahon folder with a Bionx to a Norco with Crystalyte hub motor. Only downside is you rent them if you want an extended test ride. They do sell kits and components. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimpleton (Post 362248) Questions: Is it the hub or the batteries that can't take it?
Depends on the set up really. SLA's can have fatal voltage drops under load. The ones I've tried with NiMh or Lion either the motor or controller overheats past the cut off temp due to the power drain of a motor running at too slow a speed under heavy load. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimpleton (Post 362248) EvSolutions.net is a Crystalyte dealer. Apparently Crystalyte is a step over Heinzman hubs, but that's according to the sales pitch. They can over-power them with higher voltage, which overcomes some issues, but then it comes back to batteries, which as we know are lacking, or expensive, or both. He uses http://www.soopah.com/liion_home.html as a battery source. TS
Two different animals the Heinzmann is a planetary gear drive the Crystalyte are direct drive. Heinzmann has a deserved reputation as the best hub motor worldwide. The gear drive delivers about a third more Nm of torque at the same voltage and wattage over a Crystalyte. They are fussy though and don't respond well to overvolting or other brands of controllers. Their controllers of the same voltage are even battery type specific and way expensive. Support in the US is very limited or I'd probably get one of the German postal delivery size and geared hub motors there. The best deal on an ebike I know of is at http://worksmancycles.com in the close out section a Heinzmann Estelle City for $599.00. NIB 36volt Ni Cad but no guarantee and it is a step through (girls bike) for the Europeans out there. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimpleton (Post 362248) I've thought a Bob or a trailer can work, but is a brutal and inelegant solution. Call me old fashioned, but no one has significantly changed the motor since Tesla in 1890. That suggests whatever DC motor you buy is fine (as long as you have the option to put voltage to 48, 72, 96) but the batteries should be the focus. Any ideas? It's useless if you run out of juice and your bike now weighs 50lbs more. TS
That's why I'm looking at the bottom bracket drives with at least a NiCad battery pack, should be able to keep the total kit weight down to 20 pounds or so and get decent assisted range. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimpleton (Post 362248) Giant seems to use the chain drive. Central battery/motor would give good balance. TS
Sadly the Giant Lite probably the best factory produced ebike with its Sony bottom bracket drive is no longer in production for sale in the US as of a few weeks ago (might be a few out there left), been replaced by the Suede E which is a small front hub motor bike. Uninspired is how I can best describe it. Which is why I'm looking hardest at the eLation kits, bottom bracket drive only 200 watts and a nice light weight mounted low battery pack.

Sturdly | 09-19-2006 08:46 PM
Re: More hubs Quote:
Originally Posted by Halophyte (Post 362683) The 48 volt square pac looks like a winner for me. My batteries will be mounted under the seat instead of the trunk. Gotta carry the load somewhere. Thanks for the linky. .
No problem, thought for the price you could hardly make your own. Heard good things about them but no personal experience, yet.

TheSimpleton | 09-20-2006 08:12 AM
Re: More hubs That was the craic, thanks! SLAs are useless, and I say that with le plus love for the simple and direct. It's no surprise that hills overheat a motor--low speed, high pressure is the weak point of electric. Question is, how serious is it? Would voltage help keep it turning, or is this simply a question of the resistence vs the energy capacity of the windings? The Crystalyte has dual-speed for a modest cost, which should help the overload issue. Without toying with it though, it's hard to tell. That Estelle is the best deal ever. No one buy until I have mine. TS

TheSimpleton | 09-20-2006 08:27 AM
Re: More hubs Forgot to add the point of showing the Enfields was that here you have a motorbike worth about $2-3000, but goes 70mph and gets 75mpg. With larger tires it can run on or off-road. That compares favorably with any scooter. Because they are a standard in India, parts are available, including over-bores to 700cc and higher speeds. When you mentioned the city, I realize we might distinguish what PURPOSE the machine serves before all. In the city, that's just right. In rural US and Canada, or for running quiet in national or provincial parks, you might want something quiet for rougher, steeper terrain, and with more emergency options considering the nearest shop is a two day's walk. Enfields aren't the only thing, of course, there's a revival of "crossover" bikes in Europe but the prices are high. Here's another retro: http://www.triumph.co.uk/uk/3990.aspx Prices are a bit lower and technology a bit simpler on the retros. TS

sam | 09-20-2006 12:13 PM
Re: More hubs TS- The Enfield pages are most interesting! I really can't have both at this time, so I am still a lil neurotic about scooter vs motorcycle, but have pretty much decided to go with a Burger 400. For now, I want something that is practical, safer, and has a large amount of storage space. I looked for a scooter/motorcycle thread. Didn't find one, too bad...... dtnwn

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