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shades2 | 07-12-2007 03:53 AM
Benchrest shooting This is more sporting than survival (does have a reloading aspect to it), but does anyone do any benchrest shooting? Looks like an interesting sport.

eat_beef | 07-12-2007 08:45 AM
Re: Benchrest shooting I've shot a little, not competition...I don't have the money, or the skills. I do have a couple of friends who do shoot BR, even out to 1000 yards. It's fun, all about that perfectionist,shave another gnat wing off of your group thing. The skills developed there would be beneficial in taking well thought out shots from a good rest, at a distance. It could be a hinderance, if one allowed themselves to become too focused on "the perfect shot". I've known guys who could punch a ragged hole on paper, but they couldn't hit a deer to save their lives, they had a mental block about everything being perfect, and couldn't take a "good enough" shot. By the same token, I've known guys who were excellent BR shooters, who could also shoot in the "real world". Comes down to mindset and practice, either way. I know TomD is a BR shooter, and I'm sure he knows a heck of a lot more than me.

Au_Ag | 07-12-2007 09:04 AM
Re: Benchrest shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 661113) but does anyone do any benchrest shooting? .
I've shot some from a rest, for load development, testing, etc. Thought about getting into once. Didn't because the BR rifles are unsuitable for anything but off the bench. If you want to give it a try with some basic stuff - Need to be on a concrete bench - Sandbags front and rear - curl your left arm around in front of you and bring your left hand back to squeeze the sandbag under the butt of the gun. BTW, if you're working with a scoped pistol - you can do better with sandbags than with a ransom machine rest I had to have my wife sew up some appropriately sized sandbags for the pistol. And you have to be extremely careful to ensure you're line of sight thru the scope is perfectly centered and that your line of sight is error free, particularly with a pistol. But if you use sandbags correctly with a pistol - you can tell exactly what is happening with your load. IIRC, Benchrest shooting has the highest fatality rate among the shooting sports. Usually, accidents occur from failure to fire and the shooter trying to clear a live round.

Anty Ep | 07-12-2007 10:03 AM
schuetzen In the old days before WW1 and especially 2 allowed "TPTB" to demonize the "German American" ethnic group in this country, there were hundreds of "schuetzen" or shooting clubs. These clubs would put on target matches in a recreational sport sort of way. I understand that they used really long barrelled rifles and may have used rests. Today the sport lingers on with those "buffalo gun" type matches where they take a 30 inch plus barreled rifle like a Sharps out and shoot at a real slow rate like three or four shots per hour in a match that might as well take all day. http://www.assra.com/getting_started.htm I dont do this but I have a friend who does.

keehah | 07-12-2007 02:31 PM
Re: Benchrest shooting Ahh yes I have many memories of "Schuetzen-Fest" in Opa's prairie farm community. Still the biggest event of the year for the local community. The 'elders' still shoot the eagle down to determine King for the year, but no more .22 target practice for the rest of us since the 90's.

TomD | 07-12-2007 06:27 PM
Re: Benchrest shooting 1 Attachment(s) I shoot a lot of BR, I'm shooting in a match this Saturday. After you shoot a BR rifle, stock rifles just aren't interesting anymore. The accuracy levels are orders of magnitude past anything that you have shot. My rifles are built with custom actions, I change calibers just by screwing one barrel off and another on. My short range calibers are 6mm PPC and 30 BR. I shoot long range tactical matches at up to 1000 yards just by removing the PPC barrel and screwing on a rapid twist 6 BR or 260 barrel. My bolt faces are .478 so I can shoot any round with the same base diameter as a 308. The rifles shoot fine off sand bags for tactical. I've also shot a bunch of F Class matches with these rifles. The 30 BR round would be a devastating short to mid-range hunting round. The 30 BR shoots a very light 118 grain 30 caliber round, but it steams it out at around 3100 FPS at an accuracy lever that can't be believed. Below is one of my rifles, a Viper drop port action, Mcmillan Edge stock, Jewell trigger, Shilen barrel, Leupold comp series scope. There is a site dedicated to BR--- http://www.benchrest.com/forums/ I you go there, you will find that most on the site are very polite; that's because most of us know each other or, at most, one degree of separation.

Au_Ag | 07-12-2007 08:18 PM
Re: Benchrest shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 661835) Below is one of my rifles, a Viper drop port action, Mcmillan Edge stock, Jewell trigger, Shilen barrel, Leupold comp series scope.
Slick looking setup there, Tom D!

negative1 | 07-13-2007 01:39 AM
Re: Benchrest shooting TomD, that is one fine looking rifle. Here is a monster that I picked up a year or so ago. I really need to make time to sit down and shoot her. http://www.hunt101.com/img/424816-big.JPG Remington 700 PSS DM Short Action .308 Custom 30� Stainless Steel Barrel 1/10 Leupold Vari-X III Tactical 4.5-14x40mm Jewell HVR Trigger (set at about 7 or 8 ozs.) Badger Bolt Harris Bipod Tactical Precision Scope Rail -1

shades2 | 07-13-2007 03:06 AM
Re: Benchrest shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 661835) I shoot a lot of BR, I'm shooting in a match this Saturday. After you shoot a BR rifle, stock rifles just aren't interesting anymore. The accuracy levels are orders of magnitude past anything that you have shot. My rifles are built with custom actions, I change calibers just by screwing one barrel off and another on. My short range calibers are 6mm PPC and 30 BR. I shoot long range tactical matches at up to 1000 yards just by removing the PPC barrel and screwing on a rapid twist 6 BR or 260 barrel. My bolt faces are .478 so I can shoot any round with the same base diameter as a 308. The rifles shoot fine off sand bags for tactical. I've also shot a bunch of F Class matches with these rifles. The 30 BR round would be a devastating short to mid-range hunting round. The 30 BR shoots a very light 118 grain 30 caliber round, but it steams it out at around 3100 FPS at an accuracy lever that can't be believed. Below is one of my rifles, a Viper drop port action, Mcmillan Edge stock, Jewell trigger, Shilen barrel, Leupold comp series scope. There is a site dedicated to BR--- http://www.benchrest.com/forums/ I you go there, you will find that most on the site are very polite; that's because most of us know each other or, at most, one degree of separation.
Very nice, looks like a pretty heavy barrel there. I take it imparting more spin to the projectile and shooting it at higher speeds helps with the long distance accuracy?

TomD | 07-13-2007 08:48 AM
Re: Benchrest shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 662275) I take it imparting more spin to the projectile and shooting it at higher speeds helps with the long distance accuracy?
Higher speeds, definitely. More spin for the sake of spin, no. For long distances, what you want is a bullet with a high ballistic coefficient (BC), and that means a very long and heavy bullet for the caliber. My main 1000 yard bullet is a 6mm Lapua Senar 105 grain. The bullet is almost 1-1/2 inches long. Visualize a short, fat top, you don't have to spin it very fast for it to stay up. Now think a very long narrow top, you are going to have to spin the whiz out of it for it to stabilize. A typical factory rifle chambered for a "normal" 6mm round will have a twist of around 1 in 12(one bullet rotation in 12 inches) and would be optimized for bullets in the 70-85 grain range. If you tried to shoot one of my 105's in it, the bullet wouldn't stabilize and would be doing end over ends (literally). My long range barrels have twist rates of around 1/8. I shoot 140 grain bullets in my 6.5MM (260).

TomD | 07-13-2007 08:53 AM
Re: Benchrest shooting 1 Attachment(s) some of the guys get a little extreme with their paint jobs.

money matters | 07-14-2007 01:40 AM
Re: Benchrest shooting The benchrest guys are trying to see how many angels they can get to dance on the head of a pin. Their search is for absolute accuracy and the rifles they use to achieve it are "special" to say the least. If you want to pursue the accuracy demons, or the scoring demons, there are several disciplines, NRA highpower and service rifle more concerned with practical marksmanship via scored targets at 200, 300, & 600yds. These are repeating rifles that must be able to fire 10 shots in 70 seconds in rapidfire strings at 300 yds and demonstrate proficiciency in standing, prone, and sitting positions. A benchrest rifle can be a very heavy affair, and often is singleshot. Stocks are made only for "riding the bags", and a benchrest rifle has no real utility value in any other venue but the bench. Benchrest is an old-man's game. Sitting, barely touching the rifle, 1-2 oz triggers, most w/o any safety mechanism. Any kind of shooting is/can be "fun", but... Many people are really embracing Highpower class F these days. This is real longrange shooting for score and allows use of practical rifles and scopes unlike the metallic sighted Service Rifle and HighPower-Palma shooting games. If you want to really learn some aspects of Practical Shooting, give Service Rifle a try. You might be amazed what an iron-sighted AR-15 can do with 80 grain .223 ammunition at 600yds! A Remington 700 Varmint Special or PSS with a superb scope and mount system shooting Sierra match bullet handloads tailored to its chambe will routinely place 5 rds at 100yds into a group under .4" diameter, without subtracting bullet diameter, when fired from a benchrested position. That is so accurate, it became boring to me. Under .65" at 200 yds. Sure, the better benchrest guys shoot their PPCs into groups under .15", but so what? If you want an accurate rifle you can also use in the field, I would look at the other shooting sports, and save the benchrest fun for your autumn years.

shades2 | 07-14-2007 03:29 AM
Re: Benchrest shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 663211) The benchrest guys are trying to see how many angels they can get to dance on the head of a pin. Their search is for absolute accuracy and the rifles they use to achieve it are "special" to say the least. If you want to pursue the accuracy demons, or the scoring demons, there are several disciplines, NRA highpower and service rifle more concerned with practical marksmanship via scored targets at 200, 300, & 600yds. These are repeating rifles that must be able to fire 10 shots in 70 seconds in rapidfire strings at 300 yds and demonstrate proficiciency in standing, prone, and sitting positions. A benchrest rifle can be a very heavy affair, and often is singleshot. Stocks are made only for "riding the bags", and a benchrest rifle has no real utility value in any other venue but the bench. Benchrest is an old-man's game. Sitting, barely touching the rifle, 1-2 oz triggers, most w/o any safety mechanism. Any kind of shooting is/can be "fun", but... Many people are really embracing Highpower class F these days. This is real longrange shooting for score and allows use of practical rifles and scopes unlike the metallic sighted Service Rifle and HighPower-Palma shooting games. If you want to really learn some aspects of Practical Shooting, give Service Rifle a try. You might be amazed what an iron-sighted AR-15 can do with 80 grain .223 ammunition at 600yds! A Remington 700 Varmint Special or PSS with a superb scope and mount system shooting Sierra match bullet handloads tailored to its chambe will routinely place 5 rds at 100yds into a group under .4" diameter, without subtracting bullet diameter, when fired from a benchrested position. That is so accurate, it became boring to me. Under .65" at 200 yds. Sure, the better benchrest guys shoot their PPCs into groups under .15", but so what? If you want an accurate rifle you can also use in the field, I would look at the other shooting sports, and save the benchrest fun for your autumn years.
Sounds reasonable. :) I'm still messing about with pistols at the moment, which is a lot of fun, but I can see there is a whole world out there devoted to rifle shooting and hunting. What do you think of Sako rifles? We are not allowed to own automatic or semi-automatic here. (Yeah I know, I live in Communist Australia).

money matters | 07-14-2007 01:52 PM
Re: Benchrest shooting Sako rifles are very high quality with good triggers. If money is not a big hurdle, the TRG 22 in 7.62x51 (.308Win) or 42 in .300 Win Mag chambering is about the finest production bolt rifle system made. Tikka match and tactical rifles are similarly highly regarded. The TRG22/42 has the finest adjustable synthetic stock in the world, the finest production trigger for field use, superb action, and barrels that generally deliver excellent accuracy. With the much higher cost of basic Remington 700 or Winchester 70 rifles abroad, there is little reason to prefer an American rifle. Sako accessories are numerous and available, even if not inexpensive. A TRG 22/42 can be outfitted in many ways for many tasks. The factory even offers silencers as a ready-option if you live where they are easily purchased. If you want a field use rifle that will approach or exceed a benchrest rifle for accuracy, purchase a TRG22 and have a custom stainless, cut-rifled, barrel fitted. Scope mounts are the one weak area of the Sako line. A picatinny rail and high-quality scope mount system will likely outperform a factory mount system. The Sako M-995 action is basically the same as the TRG 22/42, but lacks the solid top receiver. The TRG-S rifles are sporters, and use a synthetic hunting stock and sporter weight barrel, have the same basic trigger but lack external adjustment capability and an inside trigger guard safety, therefore they cost much less than the TRG42. Sakos make excellent switch-barrel guns since they have no external recoil lug to fit between action and barrel. Sako parts interchangabilty is also excellent. A TRG can be fitted with standard, magnum and super magnum factory bolt-bodies, thus giving all possible worlds to the switch barrel shooter. I would not hesitate to rely on a Sako TRG rifle. They are about the finest examples of production gun making and very reliable.

TomD | 07-14-2007 05:28 PM
Re: Benchrest shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 663427) If you want a field use rifle that will approach or exceed a benchrest rifle for accuracy, purchase a TRG22 and have a custom stainless, cut-rifled, barrel fitted.
Yeah? Really? BTW, I think that you have missed the point on BR shooting. The primary challenge to BR is mental rather than physical.

Au_Ag | 07-14-2007 06:58 PM
Re: Benchrest shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 663211) Benchrest is an old-man's game.
Hehhe - He Tom, I think he just called you an old man _really big grin_. Having said that - I'll say what I usually say at the range when I hear someone putting down someone else's shooting discipline - We're all shooters - we go about it different ways.

money matters | 07-17-2007 01:33 PM
Re: Benchrest shooting Tommy-D, What I want to know is: How well can you shoot your rifle with the bowling ball blue stock if'n you ain't got a concrete platform, a Hart rest with mic adj legs, and both Protektor bags???? How well can you hold that rifle with the canoe bottom forend??? What is the length of pull? Can you get enough eye relief to use the scope if'n the stock was mounted to your shoulder??? What is the field of view in feet for your scope at 100yds?? Ever fired a Sako TRG 22/42 rifle, Tommy? Got any concept of what it means to have benchrest accuracy in a field rifle? It don't mean you shoot bug-hole groups in the field, but it does mean about .4moa, consistently, and with a repeater fitted with a field usable stock. I'm curious about what the rate of twist is for your barrel, what bullet weights you shoot? 40-52gr for a .22? 60-70gr for a 6mm? My point is, nothing wrong with pellet guns, biathalon rifles, muzzle loaders, or bench rifles; but, they are an affectation for playing games. Au-Ag, sorry if my replies here disturbs your demeanor. Do you often try and oil the waters around you? Nothing more condescending than some adult (presumably) reminding other adults of something. Tom might just be suprised how accurate a field rifle like the PSS pictured earlier can be. Best 100yd 5 shot group I ever shot with mine measured .335 with a mitutoyo dial caliper. Remove the .308 bullet diameter and you get a .027" group, which is how benchrest groups are scored. Sure, a single shot; maybe sleeved action with a super-heavy barrel, chambered and tuned for one load will likely "perform" well. That this rifle has the action glued-in permanently to the stock and is not field usable, but rather specifically made "to ride the bags", means it is a one-trick pony. The trick these rigs (unless 1000yd benchresters) are optimized for is close range shooting. Over 200yds these rigs will not perform. Read up on HighPower, Service Rifle, and Tactical shooting. A Tubb2000 in 6xc will group into 6 inches at 1000 yds. Of course, the case holds more powder than the 6PPC, the bullet weighs 115grains versus 60gr, and the rifle is a repeater with a tube stock that is almost infinitely adjustable to the shooter. The moment a bench gun comes off the bench, it is pretty much out of the running. You can shoot any rifle from a bench position, but a bench rifle is at big disadvantage anywhere else. In this day and time, the benchrest pony gets left in the stable because practical riflery skills are more valuable and likely to benefit you and your family.

Anty Ep | 07-17-2007 01:48 PM
Re: Benchrest shooting Crikey "money matters" you are intense. I am a practical accuracy guy too but I think if I was shooting IDPA I would not want you on my squad for fear you would plug me if I accidentally violated a safety rule. LOL :bear_tongue:

TomD | 07-17-2007 01:53 PM
Re: Benchrest shooting Money Matters Why do you assume that BR is all I shoot or the only type of rifle or weapon that I own? I've been shooting long range, action pistol, and all types of shotgunning for years. When you start saying things like you have a Sako that will shoot with a BR rig, you get put into the classification with the type of guy who claims to have a 200 mph Mustang, a lot of mouth. Good bye--

Kahlil Gibran | 07-17-2007 02:47 PM
Re: Benchrest shooting 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 665797) Best 100yd 5 shot group I ever shot with mine measured .335 with a mitutoyo dial caliper. Remove the .308 bullet diameter and you get a .027" group, which is how benchrest groups are scored.
Attachment 30829 :wavey: .027"? Is that all? I consistently get between .023-.024 because I bring my manicurist to the range. You must be letting your trigger finger nail get too long during the match. Be surprised how heavy your trigger finger gets as that nail grows out each hour. Consistent trigger pull is essential MM. :smokin: everybody knows that

Anty Ep | 07-17-2007 03:26 PM
Re: Benchrest shooting dont forget that rotation of the earth stuff neither!!

____hoot____ | 07-17-2007 07:31 PM
Re: Benchrest shooting 0.027, heck my old Daisy 25 could do better than that:D

shades2 | 07-17-2007 10:12 PM
Re: Benchrest shooting Quote:
Originally Posted by money matters (Post 663427) Sako rifles are very high quality with good triggers. If money is not a big hurdle, the TRG 22 in 7.62x51 (.308Win) or 42 in .300 Win Mag chambering is about the finest production bolt rifle system made. Tikka match and tactical rifles are similarly highly regarded. The TRG22/42 has the finest adjustable synthetic stock in the world, the finest production trigger for field use, superb action, and barrels that generally deliver excellent accuracy. With the much higher cost of basic Remington 700 or Winchester 70 rifles abroad, there is little reason to prefer an American rifle. Sako accessories are numerous and available, even if not inexpensive. A TRG 22/42 can be outfitted in many ways for many tasks. The factory even offers silencers as a ready-option if you live where they are easily purchased. If you want a field use rifle that will approach or exceed a benchrest rifle for accuracy, purchase a TRG22 and have a custom stainless, cut-rifled, barrel fitted. Scope mounts are the one weak area of the Sako line. A picatinny rail and high-quality scope mount system will likely outperform a factory mount system. The Sako M-995 action is basically the same as the TRG 22/42, but lacks the solid top receiver. The TRG-S rifles are sporters, and use a synthetic hunting stock and sporter weight barrel, have the same basic trigger but lack external adjustment capability and an inside trigger guard safety, therefore they cost much less than the TRG42. Sakos make excellent switch-barrel guns since they have no external recoil lug to fit between action and barrel. Sako parts interchangabilty is also excellent. A TRG can be fitted with standard, magnum and super magnum factory bolt-bodies, thus giving all possible worlds to the switch barrel shooter. I would not hesitate to rely on a Sako TRG rifle. They are about the finest examples of production gun making and very reliable.
Thanks very much for that. That rifle looks very well designed indeed, precisely what I'll be looking for when I get into rifles. I figure I may as well spend a packet on one great gun, than a bunch of mediocre ones.

money matters | 07-21-2007 01:51 PM
Re: Benchrest shooting Tommy D, Benchrest is to the shooting sports as drag racing is to the driving sports; such a specialized pursuit that the equipment for either is all but useless in any other aspect of shooting or automotive driving. Doesn't mean either pursuit is not "fun". Take your fun wherever you find it in life. Yet, the closest a dragster gets to the street is on a trailer, and the most "field-time" a bench rifle gets is when it is unpacked and taken to the bench. Tactical rifles, (by this I mean a repeater with a field-usable stock), can shoot pretty close with bench rifles. Yet, most are chambered for cartridges that aren't optimized for 100-200 yds. 6mm or .22 PPC is The Bench Ctg of Choice, but doesn't have the horsepower for field use; generally speaking. Maybe you are a top-ranked bench competitor? Maybe you are still wet enough behind the ears to be pursuing that extra .005 that will get you into the top ten at your club? Kinda reminds me of a joke! This guy could never do anything better than his wife, and he was always trying to outdo her at something, so he challenged her to a pissing contest. "Let's see who can piss highest on the side of the garage", he told her. "Okay", she said, "But no hands"! Might be interesting for you to see how well your pet rifle shoots at 300 & 600 yds. But, no scope sight, and nothing more than a sling, a mat, and a shooting coat. In other words, No Hands!

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