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- - Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=456906)

skid | 03-17-2010 11:18 PM
Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil I'm turning part my property from a 2nd growth temperate rain forest into an orchard and a large vegetable garden several acres in size. I live beside a river, and half my land is flood plain, and the other half is situated on higher land. The flood plain, which I am farming, is sandy loam for many feet down, while the soil in the upper half of the property is rockier, which I will leave in its natural state for a wood lot. I had the soil tested for nutrients and came away a little disappointed. I expected the glacier sourced, unfarmed soil would be loaded with all the nutrients and minerals needed to grow anything suited to the climate. While large trees thrive, it is less than ideal for gardening. Calcium and magnesium and trace minerals are on the low side, the PH is acidic, the cation exchange capacity is low, and it is low in organic matter. In my internet travels I came across an article on how any soil can be improved or restored to better than virgin conditions by the addition of nutrients and minerals, even farmed or washed out soil that will hardly grow weeds. There is a balance of nutrients and minerals that is optimum for growing plants that was discovered by scientists at the University of Missouri back in the 1930's. WW2 stopped research, and after the war the large chemical companies convinced farmers that the best way to farm was large doses of NPK. The earlier research was soon forgotten while farmers eventually burned out their soil by overfarming, with heavy applications of chemical fertilizers making up for the mineral depletion of the soil. Unless you replace the minerals in the soil, they are used up and gone forever. That is why the mineral content of vegetables is 1/3 of what it was 100 years ago. I have planted over two hundred fruit and nut trees which are doing fairly well due to my improving the soil directly in the planting area. However, I would like to evolve the orchard into agriforestry (see link - http://www.redfernfarm.com/cia.htm#title ), and also improve the soil in the large dedicated garden areas. Using the soil analysis, I had www.soilminerals.com provide a prescription for improving my soil to that "perfect" balance of minerals to grow the highest quality produce possible. My soil prescription included the addition of rock phosphorus, calcium, potassium, sulphur, magnesium, copper, manganese, boron, humic acid (leonardite), zinc, glacial rock dust, and sea salt. In addition they recommended biological innoculants and manure which I will apply separately as I have a ready supply on the property. The local ag dealer was able to take the prescription and make me a custom blend with all the minerals in the correct quantities, although they spec'ed a 3tonne minimum. I required 6 tonnes anyways for the initial 4 acres I intend to intensively garden. Each tonne cost $900. In the garden areas I spread the mix and tilled it in. In the orchard areas I had orchard grass I didn't want to destroy by tilling, so I used a plug aerator, and aerated the orchard areas with the plug holes going down approx. 3 inches. Only the rock phosphorus requires tilling in, as the other minerals are water soluable. I'm hoping that the plug aerator will be a good compromise versus tilling. I did go over the area twice so there are twice as many holes in the grass than normal for the phosphorus to fall into and the roots to reach. Being cautious, I only applied the prescription at 1/2 strength. In a month or so I'll do more soil testing and see what the effect was. I'm expecting strong healthy crops that are resistant to insects and blights, with exceptional taste (the minerals add flavour) and healthiness. The fertilizer is considered organic due to coming from natural sources. In the garden area I am also adding dried kelp meal which contains many trace nutrients and natural growth hormones, as it is locally available in bulk fairly cheaply. What I have learned so far is that to upgrade the soil in a small farm requires a lot of work and money. This probably wouldn't be currently economically feasible on a large farm, as the costs to restore minerals would be prohibitive, even when the crop is sold at organic prices. However, since my gardens will be feeding my family, it is worth the money and effort to have the highest quality foods. I will have excess produce that I can sell at the farmer's market and hopefully earn back my investment in minerals. After the initial application, I expect subsequent applications of these minerals to be much smaller in scope. I'll report back with the soil results and gardening results in a few months.

.375 | 03-18-2010 12:16 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Several acres garden for your family sounds a little large - just sayin'

skid | 03-18-2010 12:25 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil What can I say, I've got a big family:) As I mentioned, I will sell the excess at the farmers market. I've got 200 plus fruit and nut trees, and will probably put in another 200 or so. I should have a little extra to sell...Eventually when I retire, this is what will keep me busy as well.

bjgnome | 03-18-2010 12:29 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Sounds like a good plan. The more organic material in the soil before the application of minerals will insure that the minerals STAY in the soil, rather than washing through to the subsoil. Left to their own devices, plants will naturally remineralize soil over time. Interestingly, the weeds that grow on one's property are those that are efficient at harvesting the minerals that are deficient in that soil. So, composting weeds is an important part of maintaining a mineral balance. Many plants have roots that will go more than 20 feet deep for water and minerals - pulling both up to the surface. Annual grains have no such roots.

keehah | 03-18-2010 12:32 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil I've always read an orchard should not be on the flood plane but higher ground to avoid the cold air that settles in these areas. Or perhaps not so much of a rule if you are further south? What type of root stock are you using? With the semi-dwarf types I've planted a handfull of, one only needs to fortify (and later fertilize and water) a smaller area around the trunk.

skid | 03-18-2010 12:37 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by keehah (Post 2231758) I've always read an orchard should not be on the flood plane but higher ground to avoid the cold air that settles in these areas. Or perhaps not so much of a rule if you are further south?
Where I live (BC west coast) we get infrequent frosts. My biggest concern is the river topping the bank and washing away all my good soil.; That's why I have grass in the orchard, to hold the ground together. I have my gardens on higher spots on the flood plain where normal flooding shouldn't reach, and do plant fall green manure crops like fall rye just in case. The historical average for flooding here is once every 10-15 years.

skid | 03-18-2010 12:41 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by bjgnome (Post 2231754) Sounds like a good plan. The more organic material in the soil before the application of minerals will insure that the minerals STAY in the soil, rather than washing through to the subsoil. Left to their own devices, plants will naturally remineralize soil over time. Interestingly, the weeds that grow on one's property are those that are efficient at harvesting the minerals that are deficient in that soil. So, composting weeds is an important part of maintaining a mineral balance. Many plants have roots that will go more than 20 feet deep for water and minerals - pulling both up to the surface. Annual grains have no such roots.
That's very true. Deep rooted plants like trees/crown vetch/alfalfa pull minerals from the subsoil. But getting the perfect ratio of nutrients is unusual, and getting the right balance will make a great difference in produce quantity and quality. Too much of one nutrient can weaken plants as well as affect mineral uptake.

skid | 03-18-2010 09:23 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by keehah (Post 2231758) What type of root stock are you using? With the semi-dwarf types I've planted a handfull of, one only needs to fortify (and later fertilize and water) a smaller area around the trunk.
For the fruit trees, I have mostly gone with semi dwarf varieties, although some fruit trees are only offered in standard sizes. The nut trees range from hazelnuts to hickories, and there is no dwarfing varieties to my knowledge. My nut trees are all grafted from high quality stock to seedling rootstock. I will eventually grow seedlings from the grafted trees, as I have read that grafted nut trees only average 75 years life. I won't live to see them die, but I wouldn't mind leaving some kind of legacy. Seedling origin nut trees can live hundreds of years of course. In regards to improving the soil in the orchard and not just around the trees, please read the link I provided regarding agro-forestry. It is quite interesting...

CANUCKFARMER | 03-19-2010 12:24 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Hate to break it to you,your soil sucks because of your climate. Soil makes soil. Your going to want to start thinking hydroponically.

TTAZZMAN | 03-19-2010 12:45 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil I have similar sounding property....in middle america(4 season climate)..higher rocky ground...river vally lower silty soil...we just did a soil test and took it to the state extension center then fertilized to suit the needs we tried last year a test plot planting of fruit trees......the wild life (deer) ruined almost every tree scraping their antlers last fall........ the test plot was 10-12' tall trees of all varietys of fruit i am going to try a test plot this year of 3'-4' nut trees......black walnuts and pecans......and add some willows along creek to prevent erosion just saying....for me the wild life vs the trees wasnt something i had expected or planned for

skid | 03-19-2010 01:05 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by CANUCKFARMER (Post 2233484) Hate to break it to you,your soil sucks because of your climate. Soil makes soil. Your going to want to start thinking hydroponically.
I recognize that my high rainfall climate contributes to leaching out some nutrients like nitrogen. That's what fall cover crops and organic matter help prevent. I live here by choice, and am trying to make the best of what I have. What does your soil test tell you about the soil where you farm? No area is perfect. My soil doesn't suck. The best farmland in Canada is on the flood plains and deltas of the west coast. Even with my soil as is, I have and can still grow great produce and tree crops. If you bothered to comment intelligently on what I posted by optimizing the balance of nutrients, you would recognize what I am trying to achieve. In fact I was anticipating your response as a professional farmer to give some educated insight to me as to what you do to improve your soil. Or do you just dump the NPK and pesticides on your monocrops and hope for the best yield without care for the quality (meaning nutritional value) of the crops? I guess you would make the most money that way... Also, please explain how soil makes soil? That makes a lot of sense...

skid | 03-19-2010 01:12 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by TTAZZMAN (Post 2233517) I have similar sounding property....in middle america(4 season climate)..higher rocky ground...river vally lower silty soil...we just did a soil test and took it to the state extension center then fertilized to suit the needs we tried last year a test plot planting of fruit trees......the wild life (deer) ruined almost every tree scraping their antlers last fall........ the test plot was 10-12' tall trees of all varietys of fruit i am going to try a test plot this year of 3'-4' nut trees......black walnuts and pecans......and add some willows along creek to prevent erosion just saying....for me the wild life vs the trees wasnt something i had expected or planned for
To prevent deer scrapes and browsing on your trees you will need to provide protection to them. I bought 50 foot rolls of stucco wire to encircle the trees and metal t posts to support the wire. They can be removed once the trees are large enough. I have had many a bad experience with deer. Try keeping sheep which will attract predators. My neighbor started raising sheep, and since he did thet the deer have disappeared. Of course cougars bear wolves and coyotes are around now..

TTAZZMAN | 03-19-2010 10:59 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by skid (Post 2233556) To prevent deer scrapes and browsing on your trees you will need to provide protection to them. I bought 50 foot rolls of stucco wire to encircle the trees and metal t posts to support the wire. They can be removed once the trees are large enough. I have had many a bad experience with deer. Try keeping sheep which will attract predators. My neighbor started raising sheep, and since he did thet the deer have disappeared. Of course cougars bear wolves and coyotes are around now..
is protection needed for nut trees also? what i cant figure out is they had hundreds of acres of trees and spouting trees to scrape and yes its common to find single scrapes .......but they came in and scraped/chewed Every one of the fruit trees pretty much down to the ground...... my question (since you have dealt with this before) is will i need to protect the nut trees also, I can stand a 10% loss but a 100% loss is a waste of time? Of course we will protect EVERY fruit tree we plant this year

CANUCKFARMER | 03-19-2010 12:49 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil If your area was conducive for producing crops,it would already be doing so. Good soil,produce good crops,which produce more soil.(where do you think soil comes from?) Your soil will naturally return to its original state very quickly. Which why i pointed you in the hydroponic direction. Which is super effecient and easy. Add in aquaponics if your one of those paranoid organic people. And for your information farmers spend mind numbing amounts of time working on soil health-they dont spend a weekend afternoon jumping around on websites and drawing up conclusions on how a few hundred square feet of their backyards should be farmed and how all commercial(actual) farmers dont have a clue.

thorgrim | 03-19-2010 03:15 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Give it a rest CF. Skid has the land he has and is looking to improve the soil. Sure it isn't as good as on the prairies but he lives where he lives and is probably in a growing zone of 6+ while you are likely in a zone 2. There are plenty of crops he can grow that you can't with your good soil and colder weather. Some things we have control over to a certain degree like soil. -------------------------- Skid I don't know too much about the mineral blend you are applying but seeing as how you are on a flood plane in a high rain fall area with sandy soil my biggest recommendation is to add as much organic matter as possible. I can't remember the exact numbers but I think it was that organic matter can hold about 900% of it's weight in water while clay can only hold 50%. High organic matter content will prevent leaching of the minerals as much as possible. Organic matter will also absorb and hold dissolved minerals. In the orchard, I would just keep top dressing, and sheep aren't too bad an idea eventually either. Grasses plus ruminants are one of the reasons why the prairies have such good soil. Also like you mentioned, the cover crops are a good idea. Do whatever you can to build the soil and stop erosion.

brewer | 03-19-2010 03:20 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Skid, heh heh, Nice response to Canuckfarmer's posts. I envy your acreage and hard work to improve production. Good luck with your land.

jetgraphics | 03-19-2010 03:22 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta Terra preta ("dark earth" in Portuguese) refers to expanses of very dark, fertile anthropogenic soils found in the Amazon Basin. It owes its name to its very high charcoal content. It is also known as "Amazonian dark earth" or "Indian black earth". Terra preta is characterized by the presence of low-temperature charcoal in high concentrations; of high quantities of pottery shards; of organic matter such as plant residues, animal feces, fish and animal bones and other material; and of nutrients such as nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P), calcium (Ca), zinc (Zn), manganese (Mn). It also shows high levels of microorganic activities and other specific characteristics within its particular ecosystem. It is less prone to leaching than surrounding soils. Terra preta soils are of pre-Columbian nature and were created by man between ca. 5000 BC�1450 AD. The soil's depth can reach 2 meters (6 feet). Thousands of years after its creation it is reputedly known as self-regenerating at the rate of 1 centimeter per year by the local farmers, and they seek it out for use and for sale as valuable compost. - - - - In a nutshell, the Amazin' Amazons took poor soil, unsuited for agriculture, and transformed it in an organic powerhouse. What makes it so good? No one knows exactly. In the case of Terra preta, the only possible nutrient sources are primary and secondary. The following components have been found: 1. Human and animal excrements (rich in P and N); 2. Kitchen refuse, such as animal bones and tortoise shells (rich in P and Ca); 3. Ash residue from incomplete combustion (rich in Ca, Mg, K, P and charcoal); 4. Biomass of terrestrial plants (e.g. compost); and 5. Biomass of aquatic plants (e.g. algae). Possible explanations: [] Low temperature charcoal from slash and char (instead of slash and burn), allows for a wider range of water absorption and mineral entrapment. Higher carbon content than surrounding soils is also evident. [] Organic residues from bones (fish and animal) and plant wastes provide a matrix for complex micro organisms. [] Pottery shards may provide structure, in a soil mostly devoid of rocks. Aeration of the soil may be improved by its presence.

skid | 03-19-2010 09:40 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by CANUCKFARMER (Post 2234273) If your area was conducive for producing crops,it would already be doing so. Good soil,produce good crops,which produce more soil.(where do you think soil comes from?) Your soil will naturally return to its original state very quickly. Which why i pointed you in the hydroponic direction. Which is super effecient and easy. Add in aquaponics if your one of those paranoid organic people. And for your information farmers spend mind numbing amounts of time working on soil health-they dont spend a weekend afternoon jumping around on websites and drawing up conclusions on how a few hundred square feet of their backyards should be farmed and how all commercial(actual) farmers dont have a clue.
CF - Until recently, my land and the land around it was owned by BC hydro and recently became available to the public for ownership. It is in the agricultural land reserve, and cannot be developed. I live in the lower mainland of BC, which is some of the most intensively farmed land in the world due to good soils, and mild climate. For fruit trees I grow apples, pears, cherries, oriental pears, plums, peaches, blue berries, paw paws, mulberry, raspberries, gooseberries, blackberries, Kiwis, and grapes. For nut trees I grow hazelnuts, hickories, walnuts, buartnuts, heartnuts, ginko bulabas, monkey puzzles, and pin oaks. I also have several acres dedicated to market gardening. Try growing that on your piece of alkali prairie. In regards to time spent researching soil, I have spent many dozens of hours researching how to improve my soil, not a weekend. My area of focus is on the leading edge of soil health and productivity. Real farmers and vegetables growers like Steve Soloman have commented positively on the methods I am using, and no, it wasn't my idea. I am just following in the steps of very educated researchers and growing professionals. Which is why if you were a real farmer you might understand what I am trying to do. My soil grows trees and vegetables adequately as is. I have even won events at the local fall fairs. I am just trying to make my soil the best it can be. Unlike you I have actually posted my plans in public. While not farming sections of large mono crops of cereals like you purport to do, I do have several acres of market gardens and orchards. I am not making fun of large commercial farmers. As you've mentioned before, they feed the world, albeit with crops that are less nutritious than they could be. Any educated person knows that soils aren't what they used to be. Minerals are depleted, organics are missing due to NPK overuse. If you don't recognize this you are ignorant of soil dynamics Your explanation of how soil makes good soil is laughable. Minerals replace thenselves through osmosis? If you take it out and don't replace it it is gone forever. Like I said, do you even know what a soil test is? Can you post an example of what you test for, and what you have done to improve your soil? Peace

skid | 03-19-2010 09:45 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by TTAZZMAN (Post 2234092) is protection needed for nut trees also? what i cant figure out is they had hundreds of acres of trees and spouting trees to scrape and yes its common to find single scrapes .......but they came in and scraped/chewed Every one of the fruit trees pretty much down to the ground...... my question (since you have dealt with this before) is will i need to protect the nut trees also, I can stand a 10% loss but a 100% loss is a waste of time? Of course we will protect EVERY fruit tree we plant this year
I have found that deer like trees planted in neat rows where they can easily spot predators. They browse a little on each tree returning night after night continually doing damage. And yes, they will eat your nut trees! In regards to scraping, each lone tree makes a very accessible tree to scrape on, with no fears of getting the antlers hung up on adjacent trees. So yes, deer love all types of tree farms...

skid | 03-19-2010 09:49 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by thorgrim (Post 2234479) Give it a rest CF. Skid has the land he has and is looking to improve the soil. Sure it isn't as good as on the prairies but he lives where he lives and is probably in a growing zone of 6+ while you are likely in a zone 2. There are plenty of crops he can grow that you can't with your good soil and colder weather. Some things we have control over to a certain degree like soil. -------------------------- Skid I don't know too much about the mineral blend you are applying but seeing as how you are on a flood plane in a high rain fall area with sandy soil my biggest recommendation is to add as much organic matter as possible. I can't remember the exact numbers but I think it was that organic matter can hold about 900% of it's weight in water while clay can only hold 50%. High organic matter content will prevent leaching of the minerals as much as possible. Organic matter will also absorb and hold dissolved minerals. In the orchard, I would just keep top dressing, and sheep aren't too bad an idea eventually either. Grasses plus ruminants are one of the reasons why the prairies have such good soil. Also like you mentioned, the cover crops are a good idea. Do whatever you can to build the soil and stop erosion.
Thanks Thorgrim, I am on the receiving end of the manure from 5 hay burners (horses) so I do have a good source of organics. I compost it for a few months, and then spread it on the fields.

skid | 03-19-2010 09:53 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics (Post 2234489) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta Terra preta ("dark earth" in Portuguese) refers to expanses of very dark, fertile anthropogenic soils found in the Amazon Basin. It owes its name to its very high charcoal content. It is also known as "Amazonian dark earth" or "Indian black earth". Terra preta is characterized by the presence of low-temperature charcoal in high concentrations; of high quantities of pottery shards; of organic matter such as plant residues, animal feces, fish and animal bones and other material; and of nutrients such as nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P), calcium (Ca), zinc (Zn), manganese (Mn). It also shows high levels of microorganic activities and other specific characteristics within its particular ecosystem. It is less prone to leaching than surrounding soils. Terra preta soils are of pre-Columbian nature and were created by man between ca. 5000 BC�1450 AD. The soil's depth can reach 2 meters (6 feet). Thousands of years after its creation it is reputedly known as self-regenerating at the rate of 1 centimeter per year by the local farmers, and they seek it out for use and for sale as valuable compost. - - - - In a nutshell, the Amazin' Amazons took poor soil, unsuited for agriculture, and transformed it in an organic powerhouse. What makes it so good? No one knows exactly. In the case of Terra preta, the only possible nutrient sources are primary and secondary. The following components have been found: 1. Human and animal excrements (rich in P and N); 2. Kitchen refuse, such as animal bones and tortoise shells (rich in P and Ca); 3. Ash residue from incomplete combustion (rich in Ca, Mg, K, P and charcoal); 4. Biomass of terrestrial plants (e.g. compost); and 5. Biomass of aquatic plants (e.g. algae). Possible explanations: [] Low temperature charcoal from slash and char (instead of slash and burn), allows for a wider range of water absorption and mineral entrapment. Higher carbon content than surrounding soils is also evident. [] Organic residues from bones (fish and animal) and plant wastes provide a matrix for complex micro organisms. [] Pottery shards may provide structure, in a soil mostly devoid of rocks. Aeration of the soil may be improved by its presence.
Thanks jet graphics, I have heard of this before and looked into it a little bit. It is very intrigueing, and the charcoal may absorb minerals preventing it from being leached out of the soil leaving it for the plants to utilize. I have plenty of wood on my property so a charcoal supply could be easily achieved. I also have a PTO powered wood chipper that could grind the charcoal into the smaller pieces required for this method.

scholarcoon | 03-19-2010 09:53 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Big trees don't actually require a lot of minerals. That's why you came away disappointed. Big trees look impressive but they're mostly carbohydrate, AKA Air, Water, and sunshine. Mineral content of soils is mostly affected by rainfall. I'm sure you've come across William Albrecht in your studies. When Albrecht took a survey of all the soils across the US, he found the most fertile soils were in the west, where rainfall was lower. Less rainfall = less leaching of soil minerals. The native grasses in the Great Plains were much higher in protein and minerals, which is how they could support millions of great big roaming herds of buffalo Anyway congrats on studying soil health from the mineral perspective. It will definitely pay off.

Merlin | 03-19-2010 10:12 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil I admire Skid's scientific approach to the problem. My approach is just to wing it. I apply rock dust and compost every year and the results have been good. My only complaint is that it is hard to produce enough compost for even a small garden.

skid | 03-19-2010 10:17 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by scholarcoon (Post 2235033) Big trees don't actually require a lot of minerals. That's why you came away disappointed. Big trees look impressive but they're mostly carbohydrate, AKA Air, Water, and sunshine. Mineral content of soils is mostly affected by rainfall. I'm sure you've come across William Albrecht in your studies. When Albrecht took a survey of all the soils across the US, he found the most fertile soils were in the west, where rainfall was lower. Less rainfall = less leaching of soil minerals. The native grasses in the Great Plains were much higher in protein and minerals, which is how they could support millions of great big roaming herds of buffalo Anyway congrats on studying soil health from the mineral perspective. It will definitely pay off.
Albrecht was one of the scientists at the university of Missouri that I mentioned in my first post. My soil actually isn't that all that bad, but I did expect better, as the flood plain is fed from a glacial sourced, supposedly high mineral head waters, and had never been farmed before due to ownership by a large power utility. My immediate neighbors are also professional farmers who derive their livelihood on the same type of soils/land. As I mentioned before, mineral/nutrient leaching is a concern, but there are ways of minimizing it with winter crops and soil organics. Also, prairie soils may be good when virgin, but after a few years of production they also need supplementation. Even Canuck Farmer admits as much...

RealJack | 03-19-2010 10:23 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Terrific thread. Thanks skid...

BellevueBully | 03-19-2010 10:37 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by CANUCKFARMER (Post 2234273) And for your information farmers spend mind numbing amounts of time working on soil health-they dont spend a weekend afternoon jumping around on websites and drawing up conclusions on how a few hundred square feet of their backyards should be farmed and how all commercial(actual) farmers dont have a clue.
All hail Canuckfarmer!!!! Do yourself a favour. Lose the chip on your shoulder. We all get it. You are Super-farmer and nobody can compare. Thank you for feeding the world. We are forever in your debt. Is your head all big and swollen enough now?

Barrettone | 03-19-2010 11:06 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil +1,000,000 I think he just likes to hear himself pontificate (that means condesend and offer unwanted advice that does not advance the subject matter CF). Empty barrels sure make a lot of noise. Someday, maybe somebody will knock that chip off for him. All the best.

BellevueBully | 03-19-2010 11:18 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrettone (Post 2235122) +1,000,000 I think he just likes to hear himself pontificate (that means condesend and offer unwanted advice that does not advance the subject matter CF). Empty barrels sure make a lot of noise. Someday, maybe somebody will knock that chip off for him. All the best.
Between that statement and looking at that avatar, I'm chuckling my ass off!! You keel me!!!!!! hahahaa:biggrin:

skid | 03-20-2010 01:03 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil 1 Attachment(s) Here's a pic with my two oldest kids with some produce from one of the gardens last year. I'm hoping with a properly balanced mineral soil to have better results...

BellevueBully | 03-20-2010 01:52 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil 1 Attachment(s) Getting itchy fingers here too. We've got a way to go yet however. In this part of the world, anything sensitive to cold has to wait until June 1, minimum. Frost during the first week of june is typical, even after a bunch of hot weather in may which usually sucks me in to early planting, which I later regret. June 7 for planting sensitive plants is even better. Peas, radish, onion, lettuce and beans are good early starters though, and I love those early summer salads with every meal.

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BellevueBully | 03-20-2010 01:53 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Skid, what are those and what do you do with them??

skid | 03-20-2010 02:06 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Those are mostly Squash, while the warty pumpkins are a French Heirloom pumpkin; Galius de sys or something like that. I can look it up if you are interested. The warts are known as sugar warts. The big blue ones are hubbards. I also have a few lemon cucumbers if you look closely. Way better tasting than regular. Where are you located? I lived in Calgary for many years, and gardening there was always a challenge weather wise. You could never grow heat loving plants that well there. Where I live now I can pretty much grow most things. I'll be growing a few different types of corn this year, and i am going to grow quite a few pumpkins and Squash, since a lot of people seem to like them including me. I'm even going to give peanuts a try.

skid | 03-20-2010 02:15 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by BellevueBully (Post 2235266) Getting itchy fingers here too. We've got a way to go yet however. In this part of the world, anything sensitive to cold has to wait until June 1, minimum. Frost during the first week of june is typical, even after a bunch of hot weather in may which usually sucks me in to early planting, which I later regret. June 7 for planting sensitive plants is even better. Peas, radish, onion, lettuce and beans are good early starters though, and I love those early summer salads with every meal.
I see some companion planting going on there. How's that working for you? The raised beds will allow your soil to warm up quicker as well. You could easily modify them into mini green houses to get an earlier start with some of the more tender stuff.

BellevueBully | 03-20-2010 02:16 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil What do you do with the hubbards? I lived in Hinton for a stint and the only thing that would grow there is rhubarb and onions. brrrrrrr. Great elk hunting though.

answer2me | 03-20-2010 02:34 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by skid (Post 2233556) To prevent deer scrapes and browsing on your trees you will need to provide protection to them. I bought 50 foot rolls of stucco wire to encircle the trees and metal t posts to support the wire. They can be removed once the trees are large enough. I have had many a bad experience with deer. Try keeping sheep which will attract predators. My neighbor started raising sheep, and since he did thet the deer have disappeared. Of course cougars bear wolves and coyotes are around now..
do you have a picture of this?

skid | 03-20-2010 03:08 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by BellevueBully (Post 2235291) What do you do with the hubbards?
Make lots of pumpkin pies, as squash have better flavour than most pumpkins. My wife also cuts them into pieces and bakes them in the oven. When they are cooked soft she then puts butter and brown sugar on them and serves them. The kids just love that...

skid | 03-20-2010 03:17 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by answer2me (Post 2235299) do you have a picture of this?
I have nothing handy, but cut a length of stucco wire (stucco wire is like chicken wire except it is stronger and comes in larger sizes usually 4 feet by 50 feet long) long enough to wrap around the tree. I cut the wire right beside the last square (which are 2 inches square) leaving 2 inch pieces of wire to join the ends of the wire mesh together. I then hammer metal t stakes or even wooden stakes through the bottom square of the wire on opposite sides of the tree and then adjust the height to suit. I usually lift it high enough to weed wack around the tree. I'll try to get a picture tomorrow. Most of my trees are now large enough not to need the wire now, so I have a lot of wire kicking around.

BellevueBully | 03-20-2010 03:40 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil ^^^Concrete reinforcement wire works well for this as well. 1/2'' metal rebar for the stakes.

scholarcoon | 03-20-2010 08:06 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil If anyone is interested, http://www.soilandhealth.org is loaded with free ebooks and articles on this kind of agriculture. He has a lot of classic out-of-print books on there. I highly recommend it.

hystckndle | 03-20-2010 08:16 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Cool thread Skid, Thanks for the information. Regards, Haystackneedle

coopersmith | 03-20-2010 08:26 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Would love to see some pics of your place when you have the time skids. Great looking bunch of squash, those are big hubbards man. Do you have a root cellar to store your summer bounty?

BellevueBully | 03-20-2010 09:20 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by skid (Post 2235290) I see some companion planting going on there. How's that working for you? The raised beds will allow your soil to warm up quicker as well. You could easily modify them into mini green houses to get an earlier start with some of the more tender stuff.
Sorry, I missed this post. As far as companion planting, that was not really an engineered attempt, more like a convenience thing where I had some holes which were filled mostly with onions. They take up so little room I kind of just jam them in wherever I think I can get away with it. For the most part, I plant "non-companion", but do rotate year to year. One of my favourite things to do with these beds is pick a nice section maybe 8 feet or so long, and hand sow carrot seeds. I do only light thinning, and by the end of the season I have a nice assortment of fully and under developed carrots. The big ones get eaten in stews etc, and I take all the small ones (thumb size and smaller) and pickle them with dill and garlic. The kids eat them up like no tomorrow. I like your idea of mini-greenhousing a bed or two. That has crossed my mind and I should persue it. The last few years have been crazy busy so that project has been passed over more than once. You have reinspired me and I shall make an honest effort at doing so this year.:applause_

Old Herb Lady | 03-20-2010 09:35 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by .375 (Post 2231741) Several acres garden for your family sounds a little large - just sayin'
The garden can never be a little large. The more the better.

Merlin | 03-20-2010 09:48 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Herb Lady (Post 2236060) The garden can never be a little large. The more the better.
On the other hand, the garden can certainly be a little small. I know all about that.

skid | 03-20-2010 11:20 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by coopersmith (Post 2235986) Would love to see some pics of your place when you have the time skids. Great looking bunch of squash, those are big hubbards man. Do you have a root cellar to store your summer bounty?
I do have a root cellar, and built it last year. It's made out of reinforced concrete with a roof I can drive my tractor over. I put it into a north facing, concrete block terraced hill, with 3 feet of dirt on top of it, and it maintains a very nice year round cool temperature. To the casual person walking by they might not notice it, especially in the summer when the blue berry bushes will obscure the entrance. The concrete side walk leading to it would probably give it away if they were on the second terrace though, although they'd have to get by my attack cat... :) My apples and carrots from last year are/were still crispy, although the last of the apples are now gone. I'm kind of leery of posting pictures on the internet, but what the heck, I may take a shot tomorrow and post it.

BellevueBully | 03-21-2010 12:08 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by skid (Post 2236180) My apples and carrots from last year are/were still crispy, .
How do you store your carrots Skid?

answer2me | 03-21-2010 01:01 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by skid (Post 2235315) I have nothing handy, but cut a length of stucco wire (stucco wire is like chicken wire except it is stronger and comes in larger sizes usually 4 feet by 50 feet long) long enough to wrap around the tree. I cut the wire right beside the last square (which are 2 inches square) leaving 2 inch pieces of wire to join the ends of the wire mesh together. I then hammer metal t stakes or even wooden stakes through the bottom square of the wire on opposite sides of the tree and then adjust the height to suit. I usually lift it high enough to weed wack around the tree. I'll try to get a picture tomorrow. Most of my trees are now large enough not to need the wire now, so I have a lot of wire kicking around.
thank you for the explanation! looking forward to the picture.

skid | 03-21-2010 03:25 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by BellevueBully (Post 2236237) How do you store your carrots Skid?
I bought some plastic shelving from Costco. It won't rust or rot like metal or wood. I just put the carrots/ beets/ potatoes/etc. right on the shelves. I only bought two, and need to buy several more, but I wanted to see how it fitted and worked. I just put the rest of the produce right on the dirt floor. I've been very busy on other projects, and still have more dirt to bring in to cover the footings fully, and i need to finish the air intake in 4" abs piping. The exit piping is complete as it is already buried except for the outlet, but I cored a 4" supply hole in the concrete wall beside the door, as I changed my mind about putting an inlet vent in the door. I just left the hole in the concrete for now, and it seems to work, but will complete it sometime soon as I have all the materials already. I was going to put a valve in the pipe to regulate flow in case it got very cold and I needed to prevent freezing. I also have lighting that is roughed in, but needs to be connected. The secret to keeping vegetables crispy is humidity and cold. The floor of the root cellar is dirt. The steps leading into the root cellar are concrete, and I have a drain on the bottom step that drains into the dirt floor (with a screen to keep insects out). There is an overhang that stops most of the water from going onto the steps, but some does, and it drains into the cellar naturally keeping the humidity high. Water is dripping from the ceiling, so it must be near 100% (should get a humidistat to measure it...). If I didn't get water inside that way, I would just douse the floor occasionally with a bucket of water to keep the humidity high. The temperature since Oct has been a steady 4 degrees celcius which is just above freezing. It really is a big fridge.

BellevueBully | 03-21-2010 04:21 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by BellevueBully (Post 2236042) Sorry, I missed this post. As far as companion planting, that was not really an engineered attempt, more like a convenience thing where I had some holes which were filled mostly with onions. They take up so little room I kind of just jam them in wherever I think I can get away with it. For the most part, I plant "non-companion", but do rotate year to year. One of my favourite things to do with these beds is pick a nice section maybe 8 feet or so long, and hand sow carrot seeds. I do only light thinning, and by the end of the season I have a nice assortment of fully and under developed carrots. The big ones get eaten in stews etc, and I take all the small ones (thumb size and smaller) and pickle them with dill and garlic. The kids eat them up like no tomorrow. I like your idea of mini-greenhousing a bed or two. That has crossed my mind and I should persue it. The last few years have been crazy busy so that project has been passed over more than once. You have reinspired me and I shall make an honest effort at doing so this year.:applause_
Skid, just in case you missed my miss.lol

spinalcracker | 03-21-2010 11:45 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil hello skid and thanks for the informative and sometimes lively thread.......... with all the rain and the river nearby, do you ever have to water?....... what about evil bugs and powdery mildew?..do you use any herbicides/pesticides?... thanks!...........

skid | 03-21-2010 12:26 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by spinalcracker (Post 2236567) hello skid and thanks for the informative and sometimes lively thread.......... with all the rain and the river nearby, do you ever have to water?....... what about evil bugs and powdery mildew?..do you use any herbicides/pesticides?... thanks!...........
People think the west coast north of california rains all the time. The interesting thing is that there are two seasons here. A wet winter rainy season Oct -April, and a dry hot summer season. Last year it didn't rain from mid June to the beginning of October. Not once. Plus we got highs near 100f at times. I trenched in a 1200 foot 3" PVC irrigation header line, with 2" risers every hundred feet. I have a pump at the river. For the orchards, I made 4 - 8 foot tall stainless steel sprinkler stands with 1 1/4 inch sprinklers that throw a radius of around 150 feet at the pressure I can supply. For the veggie gardens I put 3/4" gear head and impact sprinklers on the fence posts that ring the gardens to keep deer out. I typically water once a week. Never had problems with mildew, but i had peach leaf curl last year as the spring temps were warm and moist. I also had little worms that perforated some of my carrots. I don't use herbicides or pesticides either. I also rotate veggie crops on a 4 year cycle. My biggest trouble were deer prior to putting up tree/garden protection, and a lack of time to do everything that I want, as I work full time and have a family that I like to spend time with.

skid | 03-23-2010 12:15 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by TTAZZMAN (Post 2234092) is protection needed for nut trees also? what i cant figure out is they had hundreds of acres of trees and spouting trees to scrape and yes its common to find single scrapes .......but they came in and scraped/chewed Every one of the fruit trees pretty much down to the ground...... my question (since you have dealt with this before) is will i need to protect the nut trees also, I can stand a 10% loss but a 100% loss is a waste of time? Of course we will protect EVERY fruit tree we plant this year
Take a peek at these two sites for tree protection. In my picture thread you can see what I do (wrap trees in stucco wire mesh), but I have no rodent pressure. http://www.treepro.com/ http://www.plantra.com/ http://www.redfernfarm.com/shelters.htm

wallew | 03-23-2010 02:14 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Skid, This is not criticism. But before I dropped $5k on soil amendment, I would have had it tested by AT LEAST two companies, if not three. AND then compared the results. And after I had done the amendments, I would have chosen yet a DIFFERENT company to test the results to see if they were what the other company SAID they would be. In this day and age, testing can be done by lots of companies. It just seems that before I did that much work and spent that much money, I WOULD KNOW FOR CERTAIN where my starting point was, which direction I was going AND WHY. It seem with the exception of using multiple soil testing companies, you've done the rest. Looks great. Wish we had that much land. CF, seems you won't be eating anything from Skids garden, yes? :111:

CANUCKFARMER | 03-23-2010 05:48 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil My garden grows about 8 million pounds of produce so i doubt i'll starve. You guys have fun with your "hobbies".

scholarcoon | 03-23-2010 05:55 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by CANUCKFARMER (Post 2240297) My garden grows about 8 million pounds of produce so i doubt i'll starve. You guys have fun with your "hobbies".
Mmm I bet all that GMO corn and soy tastes great. What kinda meals can you make outta #2 yellow dent anyway?

Bubbles | 03-23-2010 09:23 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil This might be a stupid question. Can you grind rock into powder to get the minerals that way?

Merlin | 03-23-2010 09:41 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbles (Post 2240629) This might be a stupid question. Can you grind rock into powder to get the minerals that way?
There are no stupid questions. The answer to your question lies in the word "powder." That is the form that it should be if you want it to go to work any time soon. So, join the chain gang. Just how do you propose to grind rocks into powder? I buy it and have it shipped to my garden. Check out www.azomite.com You may be able to buy the product within driving distance of where you live.

scholarcoon | 03-24-2010 02:26 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil I bought Azomite last year. Apparently it's good stuff, I haven't used it long enough to notice a difference. Shipping is a killer though. Anyone know of any sources in East Missouri?

Merlin | 03-24-2010 02:55 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Robert Teerlinck Sunny Acres Farm 1750 S Rangeline Rd Columbia, MO 65201 (2 miles South on I-70 Exit 133) Phone: (573) 442-9324 Troque Farms Frank Kuhnert, Warehouse Manager 31710 E Oakland School Rd Buckner, MO 64016 Phone: (816) 461-1327 Fax: (816) 254-2797 Cell: (816) 215-9925 Email: troquefarms@aol.com Neither of these is in Eastern MO; but perhaps they can be persuaded to ship to your location. It should be a lot cheaper than shipping from Utah.

Merlin | 03-24-2010 02:59 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil On Coopersmith's advice I turned the straw (used for mulch last summer) into the garden soil today. I know I should have done it last fall -- but better late than never. Am I going to have to add a source of nitrogen this spring to counter-balance the leaching affect of decomposing straw?

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oldmansmith | 03-24-2010 07:18 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin (Post 2241708) On Coopersmith's advice I turned the straw (used for mulch last summer) into the garden soil today. I know I should have done it last fall -- but better late than never. Am I going to have to add a source of nitrogen this spring to counter-balance the leaching affect of decomposing straw?
Maybe, depends upon how much nitrogen is in your soil. I buy a big bucket of fish emulsion and feed my heavy nitrogen feeders with it anyway.

skid | 03-25-2010 06:47 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by CANUCKFARMER (Post 2240297) My garden grows about 8 million pounds of produce so i doubt i'll starve. You guys have fun with your "hobbies".
For me it is a hobby, as I gain my income from my day job currently. Doesn't mean that I take it any less serious than you, as I eventually plan on making a decent return on what I do. I don't know what more I could do to be any more serious?? Perhaps you can let me know:) I don't doubt that you grow all that produce. But you still haven't told me how you replace minerals in your soil. What do you use for nutrients? What province/area are you in? What do you grow (come on, open up a little)? I used to live on the prairies, and have family that still own land/farm in South Alberta. Lots of vegetables are grown between Medicine Hat and Lethbridge in the irrigated areas, but I suspect you're a dryland farmer. Must be Saskabush to own enough land to grow all that grain.

skid | 03-25-2010 06:59 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbles (Post 2240629) This might be a stupid question. Can you grind rock into powder to get the minerals that way?
That's what glacial rock dust is. basically dust from gravel crushing operations. Go to a gravel crushing operation, and offer to clean up all the dust from around the conveyers and crushers. They'll let you have literally tons for free, and it's great for your garden in several ways: Trace mineral source, lots of sharp edges for soil microbes/bacterial to easily break down to free the nutrients, and you can't over-apply it.

skilsaw | 03-29-2010 07:40 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by skid (Post 2231753) As I mentioned, I will sell the excess at the farmers market. I've got 200 plus fruit and nut trees, and will probably put in another 200 or so. I should have a little extra to sell...Eventually when I retire, this is what will keep me busy as well.
Wow, that is AWESOME! Crop trees are some of the best investments out there. You plant them once and the bigger they get, generally the less maintenance they require. And more produce they produce! It's such a total bargain - it's a shame more people don't plant them in their hoods. The catch is - if you need some fresh fruits or nuts NOW...then you needed to have planted those trees like 5 years ago! So, you really have to plan ahead with trees! But most people just plant shade or ornamental trees, if even that. Nice to look at, but not nearly as useful as trees that actually can provide a fresh food source. What kind of fruit & nut trees did you plant?

Ragnarok | 03-29-2010 08:48 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Most soils need at least some amendment/adjustment if you want good results. A soil test kit is worth it's weight in PMs. Where I live the soil is extremely alkaline; I have a 12'x12' garden plot, and though I got fair results, after testing it and applying the required ten pounds of soil sulfur just to bring the pH to neutral, and also organic material, the difference in plant quality and yield was amazing. R.

skid | 03-29-2010 08:57 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by skilsaw (Post 2249907) Wow, that is AWESOME! Crop trees are some of the best investments out there. You plant them once and the bigger they get, generally the less maintenance they require. And more produce they produce! It's such a total bargain - it's a shame more people don't plant them in their hoods. The catch is - if you need some fresh fruits or nuts NOW...then you needed to have planted those trees like 5 years ago! So, you really have to plan ahead with trees! But most people just plant shade or ornamental trees, if even that. Nice to look at, but not nearly as useful as trees that actually can provide a fresh food source. What kind of fruit & nut trees did you plant?
See below for species. I bought most of the fruits locally, and most of the nuts were ordered bare root through a nursery that specializes in northern nut trees. www.grimonut.com I also am growing timber bamboo that is both edible (new shoots) and can eventually reach 6" in diameter and 60 or more feet tall. Fruit: Blueberries - early medium and late varieties, Oriental Pears - several varieties European Pears - " Apples - " Cherries - " Plums - " Peaches - " Grapes - " Kiwis - " Raspberries - " Gooseberries - Paw Paws - Blackberries - Thornless, the thorned types grow wild here Fig Mulberry Persimmons - Both died, probably due to too much shade where I planted them. Will try again. There are also several wild berry plants that grow here as well (huckleberries, salmon berries, dew berries, Mahonia, etc.) Nuts: Walnuts - Black, English and Carpathian Hickory - Shagbark and Shellbark, Monkey Puzzle Heartnut Buartnut Butternut Hazelnut Chestnut Ginko Swamp pin Oak - Low Tannin variety Burr Oak - Low Tannin variety Northern Pecans - Traded for machine shop work, looking to get some more. Pine nuts - Looking to get korean pine and Swiss stone pine as both have large nuts

skid | 03-29-2010 09:03 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnarok (Post 2250029) Most soils need at least some amendment/adjustment if you want good results. A soil test kit is worth it's weight in PMs. Where I live the soil is extremely alkaline; I have a 12'x12' garden plot, and though I got fair results, after testing it and applying the required ten pounds of soil sulfur just to bring the pH to neutral, and also organic material, the difference in plant quality and yield was amazing. R.
While a detailed soil test is probably not worth it for a small garden, it could be worth while to add glacial rock dust to ensure you are getting trace minerals. Or make some of (knowledgeable author)'s organic fertilizer recipe which should supply most nutrients as well. I can supply my (slightly adjusted non-copyrighted) version of his recipe if you'd like.

skilsaw | 03-29-2010 09:04 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by skid (Post 2250041) See below for species. I bought most of the fruits locally, and most of the nuts were ordered bare root through a nursery that specializes in northern nut trees. www.grimonut.com I also am growing timber bamboo that is both edible (new shoots) and can eventually reach 6" in diameter and 60 or more feet tall. Fruit: Blueberries - early medium and late varieties, Oriental Pears - several varieties European Pears - " Apples - " Cherries - " Plums - " Peaches - " Grapes - " Kiwis - " Raspberries - " Gooseberries - Paw Paws - Blackberries - Thornless, the thorned types grow wild here Fig Mulberry Persimmons - Both died, probably due to too much shade where I planted them. Will try again. There are also several wild berry plants that grow here as well (huckleberries, salmon berries, dew berries, Mahonia, etc.) Nuts: Walnuts - Black, English and Carpathian Hickory - Shagbark and Shellbark, Monkey Puzzle Heartnut Buartnut Butternut Hazelnut Chestnut Ginko Swamp pin Oak - Low Tannin variety Burr Oak - Low Tannin variety Northern Pecans - Traded for machine shop work, looking to get some more. Pine nuts - Looking to get korean pine and Swiss stone pine as both have large nuts
Wow, that's AWESOME!!! I'm jealous & would love to see some photos of that. Man, you can eat like a KING with that spread!!! :23_28_100s: And where do you get 6" bamboo from??? BTW, another option for amending soil is selecting various plants (crop rotation) or trees that can change the pH or other properties of the soil from their droppings.. In addition, you may also consider using your urine as a fertilizer (assuming you don't have infections and aren't on medication or the Pill, etc). If you do it right, it's a great way to save water & amend your soil at the same time!

skid | 03-29-2010 09:15 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by skilsaw (Post 2250049) Wow, that's AWESOME!!! I'm jealous & would love to see some photos of that. Man, you can eat like a KING with that spread!!! :23_28_100s: And where do you get 6" bamboo from??? BTW, another option for amending soil is selecting various plants (crop rotation) or trees that can change the pH or other properties of the soil from their droppings.. In addition, you may also consider using your urine as a fertilizer (assuming you don't have infections and aren't on medication or the Pill, etc). If you do it right, it's a great way to save water & amend your soil at the same time!
Here's an example of where to get timber bamboo - http://www.cooper-paynetreefarms.com...o-Grasses.html I got mine locally at a place called bamboo World. My varietiesy arevariants of Phyllostachys.

skid | 03-30-2010 12:37 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by skilsaw (Post 2250049) BTW, another option for amending soil is selecting various plants (crop rotation) or trees that can change the pH or other properties of the soil from their droppings..
Crop rotation is a good way to avoid pest buildup, and the overuse of certain soil nutrients. But eventually most of the soil minerals would be used up unless replaced, which is where a lot of farms are today. Trees do mine minerals from the subsoil, and deposit the minerals in the form of leaves/twigs/etc. However, the gist of the original post is to replace or add missing/used up minerals in the right balance, which makes a huge difference in plant output, hardiness, pest resistance, taste, etc. Quote:
Originally Posted by skilsaw (Post 2250049) In addition, you may also consider using your urine as a fertilizer (assuming you don't have infections and aren't on medication or the Pill, etc). If you do it right, it's a great way to save water & amend your soil at the same time!
I do try to pee all over the yard, but I don't drink enough beer to irrigate 10 acres though:) Good thing my neighbors are a ways away... The cedars around my septic field are doing quite well.

thorgrim | 03-30-2010 04:21 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by skilsaw (Post 2249907) But most people just plant shade or ornamental trees, if even that. Nice to look at, but not nearly as useful as trees that actually can provide a fresh food source. What kind of fruit & nut trees did you plant?
I am always amazed that people choose ornamentals over fruit and nut trees. Never really made any sense to me. Plenty of pretty trees that provide food as well. Quote:
Originally Posted by skid (Post 2250041) See below for species. I bought most of the fruits locally, and most of the nuts were ordered bare root through a nursery that specializes in northern nut trees. www.grimonut.com I also am growing timber bamboo that is both edible (new shoots) and can eventually reach 6" in diameter and 60 or more feet tall. Fruit: Blueberries - early medium and late varieties, Oriental Pears - several varieties European Pears - " Apples - " Cherries - " Plums - " Peaches - " Grapes - " Kiwis - " Raspberries - " Gooseberries - Paw Paws - Blackberries - Thornless, the thorned types grow wild here Fig Mulberry Persimmons - Both died, probably due to too much shade where I planted them. Will try again. There are also several wild berry plants that grow here as well (huckleberries, salmon berries, dew berries, Mahonia, etc.) Nuts: Walnuts - Black, English and Carpathian Hickory - Shagbark and Shellbark, Monkey Puzzle Heartnut Buartnut Butternut Hazelnut Chestnut Ginko Swamp pin Oak - Low Tannin variety Burr Oak - Low Tannin variety Northern Pecans - Traded for machine shop work, looking to get some more. Pine nuts - Looking to get korean pine and Swiss stone pine as both have large nuts
Nice spread! Hope to have something like that myself one day. What are you doing to contain the bamboo? Just curious, wouldn't mind growing bamboo myself. Also have you ever thought about running poultry through the orchard to help clean up overripe dropped fruit and to reduce pest populations?

skid | 03-30-2010 06:40 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by thorgrim (Post 2250592) What are you doing to contain the bamboo? Just curious, wouldn't mind growing bamboo myself. Also have you ever thought about running poultry through the orchard to help clean up overripe dropped fruit and to reduce pest populations?
The bamboo is somewhat free to spread, and will only be contained by mowing. I planted the bamboo on the upstream part of my property line near the river, so when the next river flood event occurs, it will hold the soil in place and reduce the velocity of the water. So far I have been careful to pick up dropped fruit, but poultry, and swine especially are well adapted to keeping the dropped tree fruit to a minimum. If I'm lucky I may be able to talk the wife into a couple of little piggies. I will have to do more fencing though. Poultry also don't last to long around here free range, as there are all kinds of predators in the area.

CANUCKFARMER | 03-30-2010 10:07 PM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil If you can raise swine to slaughter,you have my respect.(seriously)

bjgnome | 03-31-2010 12:35 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil How to control bamboo: Eat the bamboo shoots in spring! Fresh ones are especially delicious. If you can't eat them yourself, sell them to a local asian market or restaurant. Part of a program on cancer, but discusses soil mineralized with rock dust: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti75Gyrqc9I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti75Gyrqc9I&feature=related

coopersmith | 03-31-2010 01:30 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Even a couple of pigs would turn your pretty orchards into a crater field, with holes big enough to swallow your tractor. They are over the top in the digging dept.

skid | 03-31-2010 02:16 AM
Re: Turning Normal Soil Into Awesome Soil Quote:
Originally Posted by coopersmith (Post 2252069) Even a couple of pigs would turn your pretty orchards into a crater field, with holes big enough to swallow your tractor. They are over the top in the digging dept.
I've read a little about keeping swine, and that nose rings are necessary to prevent them from rooting the ground up too much. Also, in an orchard, they should only be used for cleanup duty in the fall after all fruits have been harvested and only semi rotten fallen ones remain. Right after that they should be butchered, as the fruits are supposed to add flavour to the meat. I know my biggest struggle with swine would be to get my wife's ok to get them. Once my trees get a little larger, I am also thinking about getting Dexter cattle to trim the orchard grass. That will save time on the mowing that I currently have to do, plus most the nutrients stay in the field (except for what's taken in the fruit and meat). Dexter are a kind of mini cattle compared to today's larger breeds that are good for small acreages, easy to handle, and not too hard on fences.

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