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buddy007 | 09-03-2007 05:07 PM
I'm new to Survivalism I am working on a getting a hand can opener and cleaning my bathtubs so I can fill them with freshwater if necessary. Need to stockpile advil and prescriptions for my parents. I've got some gold, some palladium, and a good bit of silver as well as greenbacks.....no debt. Good relations with friends and neighbors. Printed out first 100 things to disappear in a panic list from Rense.com. Just bought a self-crank radio. And filled up some gas containers. Going to go to the bookstore and buy a survival handbook soon. Own a German Shephard. Bought some carrot, bean, cauliflower, and watermelon seeds (because I heard these were easier to grow than others.) But I've got questions. What is the best canned food for me if I'm in a crash program.... Can I get by on Campbell's soup? Even if I can't heat it up? Or is there something else you recommend. Also, I am going to the gun shop to buy a firearm tomorrow. I have never held a gun before, so what should I go with? A revolver? Maybe a .32? As much ammo as I can get my hands on right? Can I buy more than 1 gun at a time in Florida or is there some law against that? Any glaring holes in my crash program? Thanks for reading. I look forward to responses.

diogenes | 09-03-2007 05:12 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Buddy, Good choice on a firearm...in my opinion the best starter is a 4 inch 357 revolver...and practice w/ 38 special ammo. Remember, an armed man is free....slaves do not own weapons! may I suggest frugal squirrels http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/vb/index.php , and timebomb 2k http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/forum...p?s=&forumid=9 as starting points in your survival education.

Silvestor | 09-03-2007 06:29 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism 12 gauge shotgun with 18" barrel Mossberg 590 $500-700 Maverick 88(made by mossberg)$200-250 Remington 870 $400-500 ammo: 00 buck, #1 buck, some slugs

Maddie | 09-03-2007 07:15 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Sounds like you've made a good start. I wouldn't go with a .32. Diogenes made a good suggestion, a .357 and start with .38 ammo. The Ruger GP100 is nice and not too expensive. http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg39-e.htm. No reason you have to start with a revolver, though. Any common caliber, such as 9 mm or .45, would do. A shotgun is a good suggestion, too, but if you have to practice at an indoor range, you need to check with the range first. Some don't allow them. If you've never shot before, sign up for a beginner's class first. Many of them let you try a variety of guns out, so you may want to do that before you buy if your resources are somewhat limited. You might also find a firing range that will let you rent guns to try out, but by all means, sign up for a course. There are enough idiots on the range these days who don't know what they're doing and would be poor examples to follow. You'll save yourself a lot of time if you get some training. Ammo: Assume that ammo may become difficult or too expensive to get sometime in the future. Store what you can now!!! Maybe down the line you can learn to reload. Check out ammo prices and availability before buying a firearm. No sense having something you can't afford to shoot! A greater priority is water. Purchase a good water purifier, such as the Berkey. Frugal's has about the best price on those, and a good information page besides. http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/store...key_light.html Get some water containers, too, such as the 5-7 gallon type they sell at camping stores, or you can get 50 gallon plastic water barrels from some survival stores. http://waltonfeed.com/drums.html. If you go with the big drums, buy extra bungs for them. They break easily. If you're going to fill the bathtubs, these are useful: http://www.waterbob.com/ Next is food: Rice, beans, and wheat make good, and inexpensive (if you pack your own), long-term food storage items. They can form an economical and healthy basis of your food storage system. Walton's Feed has an instructional page on how to package them in plastic buckets for long-term storage: http://waltonfeed.com/self/upack/index.html. You can round it out with grocery store items, such as canned meats, soups, veggies, etc. Things like dehydrated mashed potato mixes go a long way! Remember comfort foods, and remember to rotate your stock. You can also include some #10 cans of long-term storage items. A lot of places sell them. I personally like Be Prepared: http://beprepared.com/Default.asp? A word about Mountain House foods, though. They're extraordinarily high in flavor enhancers, much higher than grocery store food. If anyone in your family gets migraines or has gastric problems, a bullet in the brain might be kinder than feeding them Mt. House! You can also store some MREs, if you want. Remember to store food in a cool, dark place, if you can. I mark every storage food item with the date purchased if it doesn't have a "best by..." date printed on the can. You may also want to keep a log of your long-term storage food. And remember to store fuel and a means to heat the food, as well as other cooking and kitchen supplies! Ziplock freezer bags have a million uses, and you don't want to neglect having garbage bags around. Paper plates and cups will help you save precious water instead of using it to wash dishes, as will boiling food inside oven bags (set in a pot of boiling water...don't let the bag touch the sides). Some more decent food sites: http://www.longlifefood.com/ http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/ http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/StoreFront Medical: If you don't have any training, take at least a Red Cross First Aid class. Stock up on medical supplies that may become scarce, including masks, nitrile gloves, bandages/gauze, etc. For more specialized supplies, I like Chinook Medical Gear, Inc. http://www.chinookmed.com/index.cfm. Fuel: Jerry cans of gasoline! Be sure to treat them with fuel preservative or rotate them often. If you don't treat the fuel, the only thing you'll may be able to bug-out if the time comes will be your lawn mower! Lol! Lighting: Get a good oil lamp and lamp oil. Aladdin is the best, but there are a lot of other brands that will do. Buy candles during the after holiday sales, when the theme candles go on sale. Maps: Get the road maps and the topographical maps for your area, your state, and the next nearest states. If you have to bug out, you may end up having to detour to unfamiliar roads. Toiletries: Toilet paper! Unfortunately, this takes up a lot of room. Wet wipes are also good. Soap, shampoo, razor blades, laundry soap (Woolite is good, as you'll probably be hand washing), feminine hygiene products for the ladies in your family (a couple of Keeper or Diva Cups will last a long time and save shelf space), and such will make you a lot more comfortable. Tools: Basic hand tools, gardening tools, ax and maul, etc. Remember that handles break (get extras) and tools need to be sharpened. Heat: If nothing else, get a couple of kerosene heaters. Kerosene stores well. Fireproof safe: At least for your important documents, if not your guns. Reference books: You already said you were doing this. Make sure you include medical and gardening books, etc. For a list of medical books recommended by people on the list, check the archives, or just ask. Remember that you don't have to do this all at once. Most people spend years accumulating their stashes and still feel like they don't have everything they'd like.

BuckeyeDad | 09-03-2007 07:27 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Great thread. If you live near a hot spot, pick up some iOSAT

Infidel | 09-03-2007 07:32 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Start Here http://www.kurtsaxon.com/ KURT SAXON ON SURVIVAL: Kurt Saxon, owner of Atlan Formularies, is the father of Survivalism. He coined the word. For years he's collected knowledge on trades, crafts, cottage industries and survival skills from a past when our immediate ancestors had to do for themselves on a day to day basis. His work is in anticipation of a time when our overcrowded and down-bred system goes the way of Rome. His program is in no way political, racist or religious. He leaves such considerations to those who seek security in belief rather than practical knowledge. The only inalienable right is to die for ones beliefs. Those who choose beliefs over knowledge, as well as those who don't know the difference, will not survive the collapse. In most cases, they will have done the only good thing they have ever done, which is to take their defective genes out of our species. Atlan Formularies supplies the knowledge to survive. Those who reject such knowledge are welcome to share the fate of the rest of the doomed herd. So read the following articles/pages and then e-mail Kurt with your opinions and/or response. You may e-mail Kurt directly by simply clicking on the e-mail link found at the bottom right of this or any other page of this site.

Tragedy Trousers | 09-03-2007 08:12 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism What? Your in Florida and new to Survivalism? :grin:

ForeverInDebt | 09-03-2007 08:34 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by buddy007 (Post 721959) Can I buy more than 1 gun at a time in Florida or is there some law against that?
http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/FLSL.pdf

REV127 | 09-04-2007 12:02 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism As far as a firearm goes, get a .380 or larger. Something to consider with a first gun is the gun does you no good at all if it's left at home. Get your concealed weapons license and in the meantime it is perfectly legal to keep a loaded firearm in your glovebox or console in your car. You'll get the most bang for your buck if your first gun is on the smaller side so you're likely to carry it once you've got a license. If you're on a limited budget or just don't want to spend too much on your first gun you might take a look at the Bersa .380's. They're very reliable, easy to carry, suprisingly accurate and will hold up to a whole lot of shooting. A snub nose revolver can be good too, just realize it has fewer rounds on tap and is slower to reload. People will tell you stopping power this and big bullets that, truth is the only thing that stops a badguy is rounds accurately placed on target and anything from a .380 on up will do. Any of the calibers on the list below will serve a newbie well. .380 .38 Special 9mm .40sw .45acp .357 magnum They are in order roughly of both power and price. While .380 is servicable it does lag the others a bit, you could consider it the minimum effective. While the numbers look different on paper there isn't a hill of beans' worth of difference in actual performance with the rest. A miss is a miss is a miss and a near miss just never will be a critical hit no matter what handgun you shot the badguy with. You'll probably want a rifle and/or shotgun after the handgun. Buy lots of ammo, thousands of rounds. Assume it will only get more expensive and harder to find. It would be wise to buy some armor. 1 gun + 1 vest beats 2 guns and no vest. As far as canned food goes there is a standout product to consider, I've posted it many times... 25% less sodium Spam. Of all canned meat products it offers the best protein, total calories, shelf life(indefinate, like all Hormel canned meats) and since they use citric acid instead of salt as a preservative it is also high in vitamin C. Canned spinach also lasts a long time and offers good ammounts of vitamin A and C, calcium and iron. You won't want to live on spinach and Spam alone but they are a place to start. Your seeds are a good start, do you have a place to start growing a garden right now? You're going to need at least a digging tool to go along with those seeds. Shovels suck, I reccomend a good eye hoe. Ace has a Chinese import that you could make work but I prefer the 6" forged, tempered and cryo-treated tool from www.easydigging.com A rototiller can be good too but it needs fuel and can't double dig a bed. If you're on a standard lot of a quarter acre or so you're going to want to double dig your garden because it will boost your productivity 2 or 3 times. I grow quite a bit of stuff on my little Florida farm, here's some things I find grow practically by themselves and offer a bit of variety. okra beans peas peanut sunflower cucumber watermelon Seminole pumpkin squash Florida broadleaf mustard You might consider getting some hens. Even if you don't want to keep a rooster the hens will still provide good eggs, will be quiet and make good pets if you interact with them from the time they're a chick. They're legal even in the city because they're considered a domestic bird. You'll want some hand tools like saws, files, a bench vise, hammers, nails, screws, screw drivers, the works. That way you'll be able to fix or make things you need, there's always something. If you own a house think about a rain barrel. If you're a renter, good luck. Target is now selling a rechargeable flashlight with built in solar recharger.

_79 | 09-04-2007 12:19 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by Infidel (Post 722099) Start Here http://www.kurtsaxon.com/ KURT SAXON ON SURVIVAL: Kurt Saxon, owner of Atlan Formularies, is the father of Survivalism. He coined the word. For years he's collected knowledge on trades, crafts, cottage industries and survival skills from a past when our immediate ancestors had to do for themselves on a day to day basis. His work is in anticipation of a time when our overcrowded and down-bred system goes the way of Rome. His program is in no way political, racist or religious. He leaves such considerations to those who seek security in belief rather than practical knowledge. The only inalienable right is to die for ones beliefs. Those who choose beliefs over knowledge, as well as those who don't know the difference, will not survive the collapse. In most cases, they will have done the only good thing they have ever done, which is to take their defective genes out of our species. Atlan Formularies supplies the knowledge to survive. Those who reject such knowledge are welcome to share the fate of the rest of the doomed herd. So read the following articles/pages and then e-mail Kurt with your opinions and/or response. You may e-mail Kurt directly by simply clicking on the e-mail link found at the bottom right of this or any other page of this site.
Thanks for the link. I liked even better his introduction. THE U.S. IS TERMINAL By Kurt Saxon Our species has become a plague on the land. Worldwide, we have out-bred the carrying capacities of our environments and our socioeconomic systems. Our country is swamped with morons and degenerates. The Mexican border has become a huge anus through which Mexico excretes its waste matter. There are at least eight million Muslims here, all too many of which, feel commanded to destroy us. Around 1850 our species reached one billion. By 1930 it doubled to two billion and by 1975, four billion. Today it is six and a half billion and climbing. U.S. population was just under 100 million in1900. Today it is 300 million, 100 million non-white. The insane middle-east war against Islam is further ruining our economy. Overpopulation and down-breeding has reduced the level of reasoning of the average human to that of a baboon. A terrible culling is due, or overdue, of more than 50% of our population who will die of starvation, disease and/or violence. I will illustrate: A man feels poorly and goes to his doctor. The doctor tells him he has a spreading cancer and is overweight and getting fatter. He asks the doctor, "Can't you cut out the cancer and help me lose weight?" The doctor answers, "Of course not. Your cancer cells and your fat cells have as much right to live as do your normal cells." You would consider that doctor to be insane. But isn't that the same attitude as our politicians, and, unfortunately, most of our politically correct fellow citizens express? People who were born to no purpose and are a social liability, at best, will be culled as a matter course. Those who accept them as simply a part of the scheme of things, will be a part of an indiscriminate culling which will carry off both worthwhile and worthless. Our elected officials are corrupt and incompetent. No improvement is possible, short of the massive culling. The culling will remove the parasites, predators, perverts and also the Liberals, who not only allowed, but encouraged society's dregs to survive and multiply. Your only hope lies in the knowledge of our past, in preparing to save yourself and your loved ones. Only the self-sufficiency of our ancestors will help you to create a life-support system and also enable you to defend your own against all comers.

Tn...Andy | 09-04-2007 06:31 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism I like what he has to say, but he "might" just have a hard time finding hats to fit his big head....ahahahaaaaaaaa "Kurt Saxon, owner of Atlan Formularies, is the father of Survivalism." ( According to who ? )

Lackluster | 09-04-2007 07:03 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Why, himself. If you don't believe him, just ask him!

Infidel | 09-04-2007 02:57 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Andy, he coined the word. Decades ago. I think he is dead.

Kahlil Gibran | 09-04-2007 03:08 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Tn...Andy (Post 722576) I like what he has to say, but he "might" just have a hard time finding hats to fit his big head....ahahahaaaaaaaa "Kurt Saxon, owner of Atlan Formularies, is the father of Survivalism." ( According to who ? )
Attachment 32960 ......................

RichG | 09-04-2007 05:19 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism I talked to Kurt today. He is fine and still carrying the torch of the Survivalist. He wants his information out more ..... not the James Bond stuff .... but the cottage business stuff, the food stuff, the things that will be important to know for your family and loved ones to survive the next culling, and he too believes it is on our door step. Take it from someone who has been there, and belonged to every heavy duty conspiracy organization out there .... the John Birchers, Nazi party, Minute Men ....... disengage from the conspiracy stuff, and concentrate on the survival-ism. Why spend time chasing shadows, spooks, evil Jews, when that time can be spent learning a trade or crafts to pull your family through the coming collapse? He does not spend time on boards turning over every rock to see what crawls out, to him that is a waste of time ..... and time is something we can not waste now. One thing that I did learn as a child, listen to and respect my elders. That way you don't make the same mistakes they did. Kurt is now in his late 70's, he is a doer, and there is not one conspiracy that he has not heard of (most of those discussed on this board date even him), or been 'ACTIVE' in. If you notice on his web site the 'James Bond' stuff is the last on his list of books..... that is on purpose, that is because it is the least important to him. buddy007 ... welcome to survival-ism there are some masters here and there are some talkers, time to get busy .... time is a wasting. :smokin:

skirnir | 09-04-2007 06:35 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by _79 (Post 722375) Around 1850 our species reached one billion. By 1930 it doubled to two billion and by 1975, four billion. Today it is six and a half billion and climbing. U.S. population was just under 100 million in1900. Today it is 300 million, 100 million non-white. ... Overpopulation and down-breeding has reduced the level of reasoning of the average human to that of a baboon. A terrible culling is due, or overdue, of more than 50% of our population who will die of starvation, disease and/or violence.
When finding a country to which to relocate, what ratio of population in 1900 to population in 2000 would be advisable? I ask because I found this interesting bit of demography: http://www.czso.cz/eng/redakce.nsf/i/population_hd

money matters | 09-04-2007 06:42 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Kurt Saxon is one of the best guys ever to come down the survivalist pike. I was a Survivor subscriber and talked with him several times in the `80s. His books are entertaining and have valuable information. Doubt there is anywhere else you will find reprints from Chambers Encyclopedia and early Popular Mechanics. Glad to hear he is still alive and kicking. Is Clarence still up to his misguided adventures? The Survivalist and Grandad's Chemistry are pretty valuable resources. Kurt was never much on lots of guns; a 12ga, 38sp, and 30-06 were all he figured anyone would need. That and a rural residence. It was fun to hear his radio show in WWCR in the late 90s. Many of the ideas in his books could really make life easier. Rabbits with the earthworm pit below their cages, stands out in my mind. Likely, most here would not be impressed, no real "tech" to his stuff. Saxon used to write, "Our future lies in our past". Guess we will see. Knowing how to use basic tools, to salvage materials and forge others with basic blacksmithing skills will be a blessing. If this thing does collapse, it will be a decade or more before we have another Sears Roebuck. Mr. Haney from Green Acres will be a real pioneer and scion of business. God Bless Kurt Saxon.

TheSimpleton | 09-06-2007 10:36 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism People here have a penchant for firearms. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there's a lot of turkeys that aren't going to fly even when the wind gets going. That a bunker of beans will make for good living afterwards is one of them. I've thought about "Survival" for many years, run and read many scenarios and come to the conclusion that the cheapest, most reliable and most likely approach to any scenario requiring "survival" is to get as far back into the past as possible. That is to say, start where you are, and work your way back through time in equipment and especially skills until you feel safe and prepared for anything. What do you need to do in a day? Get food, water, shelter, fire. What does that really take? Land, a stream or well, a 2l Coke bottle, an axe and knife, practice with a bow-drill. In an emergency, people are likely to be dying, or very poor and selling cheap. That means there will be lots of stuff around like clothes, pans, etc. What won't be around are the consumables like food and fuel. Some forgotten items like wood stoves, bow saws, hand pumps, etc. are useful and in short supply right now. Most can be made, but they're relatively cheap for the service they could provide. Because things are likely to be blackmarket and sold, weapons are low on my list, although they are correct that security will be a major issue. Security is as better provided by having a sound initial location, good neighbors, and a strong family. That's not to say they don't need to be rough and ready, but it's as likely a few dogs and a baseball bat with the appearance (and fact) of a hardened target is enough deterrence. Why? Search FerFal here or elsewhere, who just went through the Argentine collapse: most of the time nothing happens. Most of the time you just need the essentials of life: food, water, little light, a little radio or nintendo. That's a different game altogether. Life is not a war. They require different preparations. That means the real survival of you and your real or adopted family is going to be daily life. Growing food in the garden. Raising chickens without foxes or disease. Lifting water out of the well and putting it in a pot. Simple things that cans of beans aren't going to get you to. If you had cans, supplies, generators, they are bulky and will be stolen, confiscated, or run out. If you had firearms, the Depression clearly shows that there will be NO game to shoot at. It took 50 years for some animals to return in some parts of the US. No, you need simple things like a good coat, a good pair of shoes, and a shed. After that, it's all skills. You can make a chicken coop out of anything you can find. You can make a garden anywhere there's water, and a hoe out of a deer's shoulder bone. But the skill of how to do it is your real survival gear, because that cannot be stolen but can be shared without limit. That's not to say preps aren't nice. They are. Many neighbors will be clamoring for help and you'll need something to give them. But the only thing that can really help is to learn how to do everything someone in 1700 did, then 1800, then 1850, then 1900. It's not hard, it's as cheap as the local library, but it takes a long, long time. After that, farming hand tools, seeds, and especially trees and vines which take years to bear fruit. If you have a well, then you're set. Once all that is in order, and for most of these gentlemen it is, then you can worry about having something to protect with more than any $100 .22lr you could get from the county fair. Likewise, any knife will do, any pot will do, any coat will do. Being useful and helping others is most important. People gravitate to that sort of person and will owe you favors. It's better to recreate community than to bunker down. If we ever need anything like "survival" again, God help us. In that case, you'll need all the help you can get and bring people IN to your life, not set up a perimeter and keep them OUT. Think about it. It's not much talked about among the survival people. You can choose fear, or you can choose abundance. You can cooperate and help, or you can steal at gunpoint and get into spats with those that do. You can grow and create things, or fight over what others create. Decide which sort of fellow you are, and prepare accordingly. TS

Kahlil Gibran | 09-06-2007 10:42 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimpleton (Post 725511) Being useful and helping others is most important. People gravitate to that, will owe you favors. It's better to recreate community than to bunker down. If we ever need anything like "survival" again, God help us. In that case, you'll need all the help you can get and bring people IN to your life, not set up a perimeter and keep them OUT. Think about it. It's not much talked about among the survival people. You can choose fear, or you can choose abundance. You can cooperate and help, or you can steal at gunpoint and get into spats with those that do. Decide which sort of fellow you are, and prepare accordingly. TS
Yeah...having no Preps yourself then preaching about "sharing" and "helping" is very wise. :smokin:

Anty Ep | 09-06-2007 11:23 AM
inverted pyramid of survival preps: stuff, skills, social Hey, I kind of like what the simpleton said, because he emphasized skills and cooperation; but on the other hand preps are essentially especially because in a short duration SHTF preps are what allows you to make it by without your tit getting twisted in the ringer. neighbors are great but then you owe them. also, you need to start a garden TODAY if you think you will be able to make it yield sufficient to support family life. I have been working on my patch for three years and each year it grows but at this rate it will be another three before I get a decent yield that can really fill bellies rather than just providing supplemental vegetation and herbs. preps are rightly considered a first, before PMs as Khalil often points out, and before skill development and before cooperative interaction with neighbors. but yes once you have a good start on preps then you need to develop skills. and yes the acme of preparation is not individual it is social. I think of that as an inverted pyramid where you start with self reliance and self support, for short term problems, and then as the problems increase in duration and complexity, you address that with expanded skills and finally expansive social cooperation.

RichG | 09-06-2007 11:32 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Nice read Simpleton. :smokin:

damoc | 09-06-2007 11:55 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism like what you said simpleton skills and knowledge can quickly be turned to food or protection for example right now on my property I have a very large crop of acorns if i had to makes a guess i would say probably a couple of tons of potential food but i need to know how to harvest,process and prepare. thats information I can quickly share to help others.

silverJeep | 09-06-2007 11:57 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimpleton (Post 725511) Because things are likely to be blackmarket and sold, weapons are low on my list, although they are correct that security will be a major issue. Security is as better provided by having a sound initial location, good neighbors, and a strong family. That's not to say they don't need to be rough and ready, but it's as likely a few dogs and a baseball bat with the appearance (and fact) of a hardened target is enough deterrence. Why? Search FerFal here or elsewhere, who just went through the Argentine collapse: most of the time nothing happens. Most of the time you just need the essentials of life: food, water, little light, a little radio or nintendo. That's a different game altogether. Life is not a war. They require different preparations. TS
Gotta disagree about the weapon position. If you read FerFal's accounts you'll note that robbery happened ALL THE TIME. His next door neighbor and her 2 girls were raped and there was no one to stop them. NO ONE who is armed will be even remotely detered by a couple of dogs and a baseball bat. That would only deter and unarmed person. One thing that has shown to be true time and time again. When there is an emergency, you cannot count on ANYONE else to protect you. However, I do agree with you on most of your other suggestions (skills, garden, etc.) We're on city water and electricity. I approach everything as how would I survive (thrive) without them. SilverJeep

TheSimpleton | 09-06-2007 01:40 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism I guess I'm just shifting emphasis away from cans and guns. Absolutely true you need a bridge. If TSHTF in Sept, then you already missed getting that year's gardening up to scale. And worse, although you could trap rabbits and eat wild greens through winter, you'd already have to be the world's survival expert to do so. That's not a beginner's game, or even an expert's game, which is why men always live in clans. As MM and others say, if you aren't ALREADY doing this, living this, in your "bug-out" place, then you need to get there asap and not make preps in your city apartment except as a cover measure. Do trees even count as "preps? How about a nearby swamp? Your dog? What about personal contacts? Knowledge? I have everything that's needful to life and won't go over to your house except to help with work or share home canning. We always have too much and enough to share. Is that prepared even if I have no MREs and a corncrib full of cobs instead of TP? I live in a self-generated way, so if the world slid back to 1800, or 1400, I doubt I'd really care. No doubt we'd all be happier, it's the transition that's a b. FerFal was right about those people. And I'm not understating the danger he was in, or that could occur. He went to market in body armor with a sidearm, locking in the family at home. However, I'm thinking more on this line: if men broke into your house, won't you hit them with a shovel, an screwdriver, a propane tank, to defend wife and family? I think so, and I think it needs to be brought to this level of seriousness. Directing pointy or explosive items at people is serious business. You are going to miss them, they are going to point back, and people will be running through the lines of fire, often in the dark. You have to be dead serious that you are more than willing to die right then. There is too much of this "well, I'll get the drop on them with a .45 and I won't miss." They will get the drop on you, or you will miss, or they will shoot you with a .22 so you'll both be wounded and armed and dying slowly, or a dozen other scenarios too horrible to consider. It is going to be the worst, ugliest thing you've seen and everyone will gladly second-guess you for the rest of your life if you're lucky enough to get there. I want you to think about this very seriously because it affects how forward or retiring you are, and thus how likely you are to meet trouble vs preventing it before anyone's aware of it. Lifelong bouncers, lifelong military, multi-blackbelts often get there, seeing trouble and heading it off before even the perp is aware of what he's planning. So I ask, there's not a lot of difference walking into a strange room with a long arm against 3 men vs "unarmed" except for a bat or a kitchen knife--either way someone, including you, is going to get hurt. What I'm asking is, are you really willing to go over there anyway? Can you "pull the trigger" when it's not easy? Will you fight even if you're near-certain to die? Once you have that level of determination, then regardless of the outcome, those who break in will have the worst day of their lives. And if your neighbors were equally serious, well, such people cannot be stopped. You'll simply burn down the house around the swine or pour in at every window. Forget "bang bang". Survival situations are not war. These situations are a dozen times worse. The other point could be that in such times, everything is available for a price. Zip guns, powder, military, conventional arms, stolen or legit, as well as the people willing to use them. The problem will be that you'll be caught in a web of varying loyalties of family, mob, government, etc. who will demand things of you as a known-armed person. Even unarmed you could still steal or make them yourself, bows, swords, shivs, explosives, toxins. It's determination again, not equipment. Look at the Japanese in the Shogun era when swords were outlawed to the public. I take security and arms very seriously, but I still don't make it first priority. Most of the time you'll be in the garden with both hands on the bucket or hoe. If they want you, you won't hear the sound. Making things, not breaking things, should be your priority. I don't want to sound so grumpy, especially to a newcomer, but there's often a Mad Max mentality about how things will be exciting and clear. That we can even imagine what we need or what will happen. Ask the people displaced by Kosovo or WWII if they were well-prepared. Their preps are still buried in Belgrade, Grozny, the Black Forest. Ask the people in Katrina who were prepared but a casino levelled their house and wrecked their plans. Then look at the Irish who just finished defeating the English after 600 years of war, a score of times still fighting when not having a potato left to hurl. Sheer will, not equipment. Most of the time "survival" will be boring, unclear, and very, very messy. Realizing this may take the emphasis from buying things and from your own basement. That's why I turned to the simple and to knowledge. Then everything's a tool to express your will. You're better off that way. Then you need not fear not having, which is the real enemy. And when you don't fear not having, having anyway is a great and thankful place to be. TS "And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand…The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!" --Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Kahlil Gibran | 09-06-2007 05:31 PM
Re: inverted pyramid of survival preps: stuff, skills, social Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 725576) preps are rightly considered a first, before PMs as Khalil often points out, and before skill development and before cooperative interaction with neighbors. but yes once you have a good start on preps then you need to develop skills. and yes the acme of preparation is not individual it is social. I think of that as an inverted pyramid where you start with self reliance and self support, for short term problems, and then as the problems increase in duration and complexity, you address that with expanded skills and finally expansive social cooperation.
:beer: Exactly.

wallew | 09-06-2007 06:20 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism I've tried to leave this one alone. But, Simpleton says: "However, I'm thinking more on this line: if men broke into your house, won't you hit them with a shovel, an screwdriver, a propane tank, to defend wife and family? I think so, and I think it needs to be brought to this level of seriousness. Directing pointy or explosive items at people is serious business. You are going to miss them, they are going to point back, and people will be running through the lines of fire, often in the dark. You have to be dead serious that you are more than willing to die right then. There is too much of this "well, I'll get the drop on them with a .45 and I won't miss." They will get the drop on you, or you will miss, or they will shoot you with a .22 so you'll both be wounded and armed and dying slowly, or a dozen other scenarios too horrible to consider." Did I JUST READ someone who suggests that it's serious business shooting at someone, yet they believe using a 'shovel, an screwdriver, a propane tank' ISN'T SERIOUS? Good GOD Simpleton. Get grip. The WHOLE IDEA behind firearms is to NOT LET THE BAD GUYS get to a point where you HAVE to use a 'shovel, screwdriver' or another 'hand tool' to protect you and yours. But, I guess you could offer to hold hands and sing 'Kum By Yah' and maybe the bad guys will leave. Right after killing you and everyone you hold dear and then taking EVERYTHING YOU OWN. If you can't 'hold onto' your posessions, they don't belong to you. And there will be large gangs of bad guys ALL OVER THE PLACE. If you live in one of the mahor cities, they are already 'formed up' just waiting for something to trigger their murderous mayhem. Think KATRINA and New Orleans. Two years later, the NATIONAL GUARD is still patrolling the darkened streets of NOLA and are STILL receiving INCOMING FIRE. And that's TWO YEARS AFTER the disaster. Backed by a FULLY FUNCTIONING GOVERNMENT. When SHTF, it's every man, woman and child for themselves. If you don't own a firearm by then, then you will be counted amoung the dead EARLY ON. My great grandparents lived in a tiny little town NORTH of Dallas called Tioga. They had a tornado/root cellar that I played in as a child over fifty years ago. I believe it's still there.

damoc | 09-06-2007 07:28 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by wallew (Post 726228) Good GOD Simpleton. Get grip. The WHOLE IDEA behind firearms is to NOT LET THE BAD GUYS get to a point where you HAVE to use a 'shovel, screwdriver' or another 'hand tool' to protect you and yours. But, I guess you could offer to hold hands and sing 'Kum By Yah' and maybe the bad guys will leave. Right after killing you and everyone you hold dear and then taking EVERYTHING YOU OWN.
Somtimes you just dont have a firearm with you and knowing how to use some 'hand tools' could mean all the difference in the world to you. I noticed on your tag that you are a gunsmith so that means you could build a gun ,construct a firearm to protect yourself and family great skill to have but its a combination of skill and knowledge that gives you that edge. how long would it take to fashion a crude firearm 5 minutes maybee half an hour with a few basic tools and equipment? so with the right skill and knowledge you could still be defending yourself with a firearm in very little time.

omegaman | 09-06-2007 08:15 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Survivalism is not about what you own. Its about what you know.

REV127 | 09-06-2007 08:40 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimpleton (Post 725511) I've thought about "Survival" for many years, run and read many scenarios and come to the conclusion that the cheapest, most reliable and most likely approach to any scenario requiring "survival" is to get as far back into the past as possible. That is to say, start where you are, and work your way back through time in equipment and especially skills until you feel safe and prepared for anything.
This is a very interesting concept and one I tend to agree with. While I never intend to live like a caveman, primitive living skills are the ultimate fallback position. What if you lose your home, all your gear and preps, and find yourself in a new and unfamiliar land where you have to start over again from scratch? Knowing how people survived the stone age will help you live through the first couple weeks. Hopefully you learned how things worked up through the 19th century so slowly you can build a civilized existence for yourself. I don't see it just as a matter of going back in the past, but moving toward the future. Sustainable technologies are what we really need and a little modern knowhow combined with a little wisdom of the past can allow you to build a high tech, high energy future that is still sustainable, renewable and reliable. Use whatever you want to use but don't rely on things you don't understand and can't support, maintain, repair and make because the first thing that's going to happen is you're going to run out of consumables and your stuff is going to break or be stolen. Two is one, one is none. Always have a plan B, all that kind of stuff. If all you have is a couple years of stored food you're at great risk of starvation. FEMA rolls in, confiscates your stores, feeds the gangbangers down the street and now you've got nothing. You have to be able to do for yourself, it's not only more secure but in the long run it is much cheaper. Defense is a whole nother issue. Most reasonable people, given a certain familiarity with the fundamentals of the mechanical operation of their firearm and the basics of marksmanship, will fire on a hostile enemy. Often that is good enough to defeat the enemy or send him off running. Things get funky from there, though. Ain't hardly a such thing as a one on one violent encounter these days. A lot crime is gang-driven and done in groups. Head down to you local ghetto mall and see how tough the bone thugs are in numbers. Then find the same guy on his own in a different setting, deprived of the greater portion of his self confidence. They have very primitive mentalities, they think and act in groups. You will be facing multiple attackers. You're going to need a lot more than just a gun and basic marksmanship. You're going to need perimeter security, early warning, armor, training and ability. Backup is great, too.

jrog100 | 09-07-2007 09:22 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by diogenes (Post 721963) Buddy, Good choice on a firearm...in my opinion the best starter is a 4 inch 357 revolver...and practice w/ 38 special ammo. Remember, an armed man is free....slaves do not own weapons! may I suggest frugal squirrels http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/vb/index.php , and timebomb 2k http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/forum...p?s=&forumid=9 as starting points in your survival education.
Now thats good advice on a firearm. Look at a S&W model 66 w/ 4" barrel.

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Anty Ep | 09-07-2007 09:55 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 726393) I've thought about "Survival" for many years, run and read many scenarios ....... Backup is great, too.
Damn right, the main way to counter foes that move in groups is organize a better group. One man cant stand watch 24/7. That is where the "social networking" aspect comes in. Also-- consider your life without people to love. Lonely. I'm lucky to be raising a family. People both to help and people worth living, and dying for. And there are lots of neighbors like that too. The one thing I liked about what Simpleton said is it focused on the social aspect. ITs worth getting to know people and relate to others whether TSHTF or not.

Kahlil Gibran | 09-07-2007 10:39 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 726958) People both to help and people worth living, and dying for. And there are lots of neighbors like that too. The one thing I liked about what Simpleton said is it focused on the social aspect. ITs worth getting to know people and relate to others whether TSHTF or not.
Attachment 33083 Nah...just before wtshtf change your phone number and avoid all those deadbeat "friends" and "family" who will be suddenly asking for even more handouts. Go get that lawnmower back they "borrowed" in April too. :smokin:

Anty Ep | 09-07-2007 10:48 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Dead weight deadbeats man or woman are not part of any decent survival group or society. People who cant pull their weight, appropriate to their age of course, are going to get culled if TSHTF hard enough, and that will be a good thing. Let me tell you, if the day comes when the federales can no longer reach out and protect the leeches of othis society, then those big urban blight nieghborhoods of social parasites, will get ausrotted fast and hard. This is the other side of survivalism. The knowledge that the demographic which is getting screwed under this regime, will hit back if this regime, this status quo, ever falters enough so it can't pay its goons. We will be able to mobilize very quickly and do whats necessary to restore a benevolent and just social order. The good image is not survivalists slinking off to the woods and letting the leaches fatten up on the goods. No the right image, is a phalanx of survivalists, unified, cutting through the scum like a hot knife through butter. As situation allows it, leadership will show its face. You look around now and think there's nothing happening, but there is, people are biding their time. Building resources and storing up energy. Dont be hasty. Watch, wait, prepare, make good friends not bad ones; and follow this: semper paratus. Or to put it differently-- si vis pacem.......

Kahlil Gibran | 09-07-2007 10:52 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 727026) Dead weight deadbeats man or woman are not part of any decent survival group or society. People who cant pull their weight, appropriate to their age of course, are going to get culled if TSHTF hard enough, and that will be a good thing.
Attachment 33085 :smokin: That's the upside of the downside. I can't wait for the herd-thinning Show to begin!

Baphomet Jones | 09-07-2007 04:49 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty This is the other side of survivalism. The knowledge that the demographic which is getting screwed under this regime, will hit back if this regime, this status quo, ever falters enough so it can't pay its goons. We will be able to mobilize very quickly and do whats necessary to restore a benevolent and just social order. The good image is not survivalists slinking off to the woods and letting the leaches fatten up on the goods. No the right image, is a phalanx of survivalists, unified, cutting through the scum like a hot knife through butter.
Hell yeah! :thrasher: :ridinghor I can't wait. I dream about it :rolleyes_m:

Master_Ho | 09-07-2007 06:49 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimpleton (Post 725511) People here have a penchant for firearms. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there's a lot of turkeys that aren't going to fly even when the wind gets going. That a bunker of beans will make for good living afterwards is one of them. I've thought about "Survival" for many years, run and read many scenarios and come to the conclusion that the cheapest, most reliable and most likely approach to any scenario requiring "survival" is to get as far back into the past as possible. That is to say, start where you are, and work your way back through time in equipment and especially skills until you feel safe and prepared for anything. What do you need to do in a day? Get food, water, shelter, fire. What does that really take? Land, a stream or well, a 2l Coke bottle, an axe and knife, practice with a bow-drill. In an emergency, people are likely to be dying, or very poor and selling cheap. That means there will be lots of stuff around like clothes, pans, etc. What won't be around are the consumables like food and fuel. Some forgotten items like wood stoves, bow saws, hand pumps, etc. are useful and in short supply right now. Most can be made, but they're relatively cheap for the service they could provide. Because things are likely to be blackmarket and sold, weapons are low on my list, although they are correct that security will be a major issue. Security is as better provided by having a sound initial location, good neighbors, and a strong family. That's not to say they don't need to be rough and ready, but it's as likely a few dogs and a baseball bat with the appearance (and fact) of a hardened target is enough deterrence. Why? Search FerFal here or elsewhere, who just went through the Argentine collapse: most of the time nothing happens. Most of the time you just need the essentials of life: food, water, little light, a little radio or nintendo. That's a different game altogether. Life is not a war. They require different preparations. That means the real survival of you and your real or adopted family is going to be daily life. Growing food in the garden. Raising chickens without foxes or disease. Lifting water out of the well and putting it in a pot. Simple things that cans of beans aren't going to get you to. If you had cans, supplies, generators, they are bulky and will be stolen, confiscated, or run out. If you had firearms, the Depression clearly shows that there will be NO game to shoot at. It took 50 years for some animals to return in some parts of the US. No, you need simple things like a good coat, a good pair of shoes, and a shed. After that, it's all skills. You can make a chicken coop out of anything you can find. You can make a garden anywhere there's water, and a hoe out of a deer's shoulder bone. But the skill of how to do it is your real survival gear, because that cannot be stolen but can be shared without limit. That's not to say preps aren't nice. They are. Many neighbors will be clamoring for help and you'll need something to give them. But the only thing that can really help is to learn how to do everything someone in 1700 did, then 1800, then 1850, then 1900. It's not hard, it's as cheap as the local library, but it takes a long, long time. After that, farming hand tools, seeds, and especially trees and vines which take years to bear fruit. If you have a well, then you're set. Once all that is in order, and for most of these gentlemen it is, then you can worry about having something to protect with more than any $100 .22lr you could get from the county fair. Likewise, any knife will do, any pot will do, any coat will do. Being useful and helping others is most important. People gravitate to that sort of person and will owe you favors. It's better to recreate community than to bunker down. If we ever need anything like "survival" again, God help us. In that case, you'll need all the help you can get and bring people IN to your life, not set up a perimeter and keep them OUT. Think about it. It's not much talked about among the survival people. You can choose fear, or you can choose abundance. You can cooperate and help, or you can steal at gunpoint and get into spats with those that do. You can grow and create things, or fight over what others create. Decide which sort of fellow you are, and prepare accordingly. TS
While most of our "Mad Max Society" survivalists will, no doubt, disagree with you.........I must say, I found this to be - overall - one of the sanest and down-to-earth posts on survival I have read in this forum. Yes, I have guns and shotguns (and a killer parrot), but my focus has been alarm systems, water and dehydrated food (as well a bulk store-away food items like beans, rice, etc.). I can't really grow here - certainly can not dig a well on this property - and I doubt most people can! Its illegal to keep chickens here - tho lords knows, I wish I could (except for the smell!) But I CAN store food, water - along with the guns & ammo - and, as I have, I have been thinking all along.........I have some extra 72 hour emergency boxes of food, and extra bottles of water, which I can sell or share with friends and neighbors, if I choose....... And I know these people well enough to know, if I do that, they, in turn, will help me by sharing what they have for our common good. There is a general attitude growing, both in society and on GIM, that says - take care of yourself and family, screw the other guys, let them fend for themselves...........well, my attitude is - take care of yourself and family first, then if you can help those around you, do so, cause its better to have people who are grateful for your efforts than people resentful, and so hungry they are willing to break into your house and rip you off. Somewhere in all this survival material - there is a place of balance - its a Tao-thing..........but your post touched on it! And thanks for mentioning the Argentine collapse. I have said here so many times I don't even bother posting much anymore (one can say the same things repeatedly, but after a while you realize its wasted energy) that I plan for the worse as best I can - but the worst is a POSSIBILITY, not the probability.......and the probability is what you posted about Argentine collapse: most of the time nothing happens. Most of the time you just need the essentials of life: food, water, little light, a little radio or nintendo. That's a different game altogether. Life is not a war. Cheers!

TheSimpleton | 09-11-2007 04:42 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism I've been avoiding this thread as facing the prospect of injuring another human being gets me worked up--as it well should. That said, anyone who takes himself as seriously as all that is not a Simpleton but a Fool. I agree, Wallew. Entirely. However, things don't always go according to plan and you need to think about what happens if you and your posessions get separated. I don't disagree with firearms or defense, I just don't want to depend on them. Depending on their availability is a weakness and could be a pivotal one. I also have just two questions about force and firearms: What happens before? AND What happens after? Before, you may feel that arms are enough to stay in an area, not focus on prevention, perimeter, and local support, and perhaps keep a higher profile than you otherwise might. Like the ex-Bouncers, you may think "I can take this guy" --and you can, absolutely-- but isn't it wiser to know his pack mentality and to distract him, prevent matters before his teeth are shown? And yes that isn't always possible, but it's a lot more possible than you might think before it becomes your core response. After: Goodness, I can't imagine. You have to pay off the underpaid constable who shows up so he writes the correct report--then, and every week until the trial. Now that his attention is focused on you, he's happy to discover all that you own and love, draining all your careful preps. Oh, maybe those you shot are part of the Zetas, who vow vengence on you and your family. Or they it was the wayward son of the local Judge and they cover it up by painting you as a psychopathic gun-happy loon, starting with taking your children to Social Servives, ruining your reputation, ending your job, and working up from there. The local Mob sold you something illegal or covered for you in a past incident but promise to be quiet for a price. Maybe they were not invaders at all, but part of the army and they misbehaved or alarmed you. Ask Ishmael Beah how well having arms worked in Seirra Leone. They assumed you were either the army or the resistance and either way the other side heard about you and leveled your village--even if you and everyone with a gun had already left. ...And so on. There are so many possibilities. That doesn't make self-defense unjustified, or preparation unwise, just that you cannot focus on a single battle when inside a wider campaign. If you use arms, especially in a chaotic situation, there will be a wide range of ways and people to take advantage of your misfortune to enrich themselves. You might want to have contingency plans in place ranging from payoffs to liftoffs. That makes the use of arms an even greater responsibility than they already were. Responsible to your family, your whole town, or even region perhaps. But I'll leave you with one other question, although we really should get back to the original question and I apologize for hijacking the thread. When the heat comes down on you for having used deadly force, which way does it look better: that you drove your car through the house where the neighbors were held hostage and beat the assailants senseless with a shovel, or that you forcably entered with body armor and a tactical laser-sighted Saiga and bagged them like game hens? I know the common sense of this makes no sense at all, but in the "long afterwards" in one story you're the heroic underdog, hands down. In the other, you're attracting attention you don't want to attract. I don't recommend this, necessarily, but the sentiment is understood by the logical extremes here. What did another thread on CCW say? "I did everything I could to avoid a confrontation?" and "I was in fear of my life"? That's hard to say when you're sizeably outgunning the opposition. ...And now back to your previously scheduled program on Survival Preps... TS

Anty Ep | 09-11-2007 05:09 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism I dont know all about that. I do know a guy who interrupted a theft of his auto and the perp drew a pop gun on him. he'd already drew his piece though and drilled him. the perp ran off wounded. he didnt die, thankfully. the police investigated and the prosecutor handed the file to the grand jury who refused to bring any charges. they could have charged him with assault or aggravated assault. maybe adw was a separate charge too. they didnt. let me tell you, he was scared, before he was relieved, but scared and then relieved beats dead. :D As for tribal warfare and blood fueds, they are what they are, and they've been here before and they'll be here again. Plus ca change, plus le meme chose.........

KASHMAN02 | 09-11-2007 05:10 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Exactly what is it your trying to survive?

keehah | 11-06-2007 05:25 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism YouTube - A Post-Oil Man
YouTube - A Post-Oil Man

Squirrel Bait | 11-06-2007 06:42 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism I think I might be related to him!!!!!!! SB

Metalophile | 11-07-2007 09:08 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Back to the original topic of what a beginning survivalist needs . . . WATER!, and not just one bathtub full or what's in your hot water heater. Think about backup long term sources of water in case the mains go down. Then think about how you are going to purify that water. For myself we live a couple hundred yards from a lake, so I bought a Berkey Light filter system and keep some bottles of bleach on hand, too. Next on my priority list is to construct a sand filter to get out most of the particulates before feeding the lake water into my Berkey. Other sources of water to consider is building a catchment system for whatever falls on your roof.

wallew | 11-07-2007 01:06 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism SHUT UP KEEP SHOVELING I've said it before, I'll say it again. IF you HAVE to ram your truck through someone's house, I'm guessing you either have lots of extra trucks or you are planning on walking from there on out? If you've allowed someone you care for become a hostage, you've failed. So you improvise, modify and hit it, hard, fast without remorse. YOU have to be more DEADLY than those holding the hostages. We already know THEY are willing to be deadly or the hostages would have rolled on the floor laughing. As this is YOUR scenario, lets see how it ends. Several possibles. One is very good, all BG's dead. No good guys have a scratch. It obviously goes from that to worse. No BG's hurt, all good guys dead. But let me ask you, if you are the shield for the BG's (hostages), exactly what do you EXPECT is going to happen to you and all the other hostages being used by BG's as sheilds? YOU DIE. That's YOUR JOB. If you remain THEIR SHEILD. That's simple. OH, and a firearm is strictly a more efficient killing TOOL. You seem fixated on hand tools, which I would be the first to agree everyone should have and know how to use. Neither do you seem 'remorseful' at having to rescue the hostages by using 'whatever means necessary' to get the job done. I salute the over all result. You just seem to 'work harder' at it than I would. If I were to resort to my tool shed (3+ of everything I USE daily during the growing months), I would probably start with a 5' steel rod pick or two, then move on to a single hand single edge hooked grass cutting tool, then axes, machete's and I even have a stack of old circular saw blades that I've always thought about turning into a vicious wind chime... but alas, they still sit, rusting and are excellent albiet larger throwing stars (don't forget to wear heavy gloves - I leave a pair right next to the stack). ANYTHING, at any time can be used as a weapon. I just prefer to be more efficient and make less noise. By your own definition, even having a police presence doesn't make you and yours or me and mine safe. It is OUR first responsibility. I take mine very seriously. My wife, bless her soul is basically on board and even admits to having 'issues' with having to shoot someone. Right up to the point where I ask 'If it's YOU or THEM' who do you choose? She chooses HERSELF every time. Bless her, she does understand. You just have to 'build' on that one thought. Now you've got some one at your back that you know you can trust them and they can trust you to be their backup. That's what it's all about. Weapons be damned. I just prefer to be efficient whenever I can. I rarely use a hammer to fix a leaky faucet, but hey, if it's the ONLY tool at hand... Improvise, modify and get it done now, cause later may not come. Hope that makes sense, if not sorry to let my sophistry show in public.

REV127 | 11-14-2007 01:48 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimpleton (Post 732615) But I'll leave you with one other question, although we really should get back to the original question and I apologize for hijacking the thread. When the heat comes down on you for having used deadly force, which way does it look better: that you drove your car through the house where the neighbors were held hostage and beat the assailants senseless with a shovel, or that you forcably entered with body armor and a tactical laser-sighted Saiga and bagged them like game hens?
Some time ago on another forum there was a new poster who understood the rationality of preparing for the uncertainties of the future and need for self defense. He understood he realistically needed a gun but he really didn't like the idea of killing anybody. My suggestion to him was a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with rubber slugs, rubber buckshot or beanbag rounds. You can back that up with pepper spray like the big 1lbs fogger units and smoke bombs. It's non-lethal but it's still pretty darn strong. Consider that before commiting to wielding a shovel against attackers. I do agree with the idea of not being dependent on firearms or any other single weapon system for defense. Personally I put a lot of effort into primitive weapons. For starters they are typically more sustainable and often quite lethal even if not as powerful as a firearm so they can be applied to non-critical situations. Additionally they often have certain advantages such as reusable ammo and near silent operation. Some, like the sling, give you hundreds of feet of effective range yet will fit in your pocket. A person should also understand basic hand weapons such as the knife, stick, sword, axe, etc as well as unarmed combat.

TheSimpleton | 11-15-2007 12:14 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism I think you guys are getting the Devil's Advocate point I'm making here. As people who've thought about scenarios a long time, we immediately jump to "get the best tool" because we've already thought out what the "job" is. But that's like telling someone to get a truck so they don't have to walk. What happens when the truck breaks down? We all agree you still need to practice walking and not sit in the cab helpless and disoriented when the truck breaks down--which it will. I need you to be capable as h-- with or without the tool. That goes double in a time when "trucks" will break, be stolen, or taken for evidence. Yes, that's exactly my point that I would have to be the shield for the hostages. I would be laying down my life almost certainly, so they could only possibly escape. Otherwise, I wouldn't go in...exactly the same calculation as if I were properly armed. Because although you've tipped the odds strongly in your favor with arms, so many, many things can go wrong, before, during, and after. Just need to pry away from "gun is magic wand" thinking that security people understand, but forget to communicate to new arrivals. You want a deadly neighborhood force? Start them with a rock, then a flint, a knife, a bow, a spear, and so on. By the time they get to modern weapons, they'll understand how to use them, when, why, and more importantly, when NOT to and to use other, smarter tactics instead. I've often thought about this with the difference in colonists and farmers and so on having so few gun accidents vs modern gun owners. I've come up with: the quiet of having so few things the few tools you have are focused on sharply; poverty and every shot being too expensive to waste; regular instead of intermittent practice; but most importantly, to grow up SEEING what death looks like, and under what conditions we morally--and with difficulty--distribute it to others. It's not the same when you take your dog to the vet to be put down, or your horse. After months of troubles, YOU pick the day of days, YOU get the tool, YOU load it and look in their eyes when you pull it, then YOU explain it to your neighbors, your children, yourself while YOU dig the hole and live in the long afterwards. Then you'll never be hasty and you'll never forget. But you'll also never waver when it comes time--as it sometimes does--to mete out death again. And in those conditions, yes, when it means, as a soldier or defender of your people, to possibly lay down your life for others. If you haven't made peace with that, I'm not sure I want you sweeping the room behind me. You soldiers have done that, hunters too, I expect. But we can't assume that new arrivals have. And that would be my first lesson, before tactics, caliber, safety, anything. And my last lesson too, as the decision of when to take grave measures, and the extremity of doing everything possible to avoid being pinned down in that position--diplomacy, location, permeter, allies, motion--that everything has been tried. Because then you won't waver, and you'll already know what's the best tool for the job, because you'll so cleary understand the job and have your purpose so fixed in mind. I don't know if I'm against killing. I remember they were talking about how many million people were killed in WWII and CS Lewis said, "what are you talking about? Mortality is always 100%" ...It's just a matter of picking when. But I understand the social gravity of it. Guns don't make problems go away. Often they can make them worse--you just get to enjoy the "worse" instead of being cut off midstream. Anyway, focusing on the Tool is a disservice. We should focus on the Job: How do we get the Job done. Is it to make them stop? Go away? Choose differently? There are many ways to accomplish these things. This is one of them, but not the only one. How do we do it most efficiently, most justly, most cleanly, with the least possible blowback? Of course we don't have the parameters of the job before us, just imaginary scenarios, but it's useful to go through it. "When we got ambushed, was there any sign BEFORE the shooting?" "When those guys turned on us, what caused it? Could we have prevented it, or cut them off ahead of time?" And so on. The battle is far, far, far ahead of the shooting, and long, long after. Watch "The Godfather" if you don't believe me. ;) You win the war by knowing more and acting smarter, NOT by killing people. If only governments could figure that out in their foriegn wars. TS

buddy007 | 11-25-2007 10:23 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Ya, Power generators don't seem like they would be effective in a long crisis. They are costly, difficult to defend, and even potentially dangerous.

shades2 | 11-25-2007 10:42 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 830102) Some time ago on another forum there was a new poster who understood the rationality of preparing for the uncertainties of the future and need for self defense. He understood he realistically needed a gun but he really didn't like the idea of killing anybody. My suggestion to him was a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with rubber slugs, rubber buckshot or beanbag rounds. You can back that up with pepper spray like the big 1lbs fogger units and smoke bombs. It's non-lethal but it's still pretty darn strong. Consider that before commiting to wielding a shovel against attackers. I do agree with the idea of not being dependent on firearms or any other single weapon system for defense. Personally I put a lot of effort into primitive weapons. For starters they are typically more sustainable and often quite lethal even if not as powerful as a firearm so they can be applied to non-critical situations. Additionally they often have certain advantages such as reusable ammo and near silent operation. Some, like the sling, give you hundreds of feet of effective range yet will fit in your pocket. A person should also understand basic hand weapons such as the knife, stick, sword, axe, etc as well as unarmed combat.
Hmm. There is such a thing as a warning shot... I would rather have it fully loaded with buckshot, and fire a warning shot over their head, which from a shotgun, along with a verbal warning should send any sane person running for the hills. The reason for this, is if they are armed themselves, and you have to act in self-defence and shoot them. You won't have time to unload your non-lethal rounds and load lethal rounds... The other option is birdshot, which is somewhat less lethal, but can incapacitate any attacker also. Maybe make the first two rounds birdshot. Knives, axes, sticks, swords etc. are all pretty much martial arts weapons, or have their equivalent. Training starts with the mind, then body, then escalates to weapons as required. The human body itself utilised correctly, is capable of causing massive damage, more lethal than a number of weapons in most hands. Any MMA event will show just how dangerous a trained fighter can be. Anyway, with any luck we'll hopefully never have to use such things in a survival situation, but if you are properly prepared, you will never be caught out with a lack of knowledge, skills or ability, no matter what your age. Kicking above the waist is for Pros though. :) <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nIsAEcaQ8tQ&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nIsAEcaQ8tQ&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

REV127 | 11-25-2007 11:57 AM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 844944) Hmm. There is such a thing as a warning shot... I would rather have it fully loaded with buckshot, and fire a warning shot over their head, which from a shotgun, along with a verbal warning should send any sane person running for the hills.
I agree. Actually I'd leave my shotgun loaded with lead instead of rubber if it was my primary defensive weapon, but I'm not that guy and I don't have the same feelings about wounding/killing badguys. I don't think his perspective makes him a wimp or that mine makes me macho, not everybody can or even should be the same on all points. It kind of goes full circle for me though, because my primary interest in shotguns is to have a nonlethal option as I have other guns that deliver more dire consequences. Too bad nobody has figured out a way to make a phaser that can be set to stun. "send any sane person running for the hills" is deceptive though... violent criminals can't honestly be called sane. I tend to not trust in the good sense or compassion of my enemies. Quote:
Knives, axes, sticks, swords etc. are all pretty much martial arts weapons, or have their equivalent. Training starts with the mind, then body, then escalates to weapons as required. The human body itself utilised correctly, is capable of causing massive damage, more lethal than a number of weapons in most hands. Any MMA event will show just how dangerous a trained fighter can be.
The way I see it any weapon is a martial arts weapon, by definition. There is a whole lot more to gunfighting than just changing mags, pulling the trigger and hitting targets, for example. In fact there are a great many different styles and approaches to gunfighting. But yes, it starts with understanding on a spiritual and intellectual level and flows from there into physical manifestation. Quote:
Anyway, with any luck we'll hopefully never have to use such things in a survival situation, but if you are properly prepared, you will never be caught out with a lack of knowledge, skills or ability, no matter what your age.
I've long believed that you should understand how everything you depend on works, even if you don't do everything for yourself. It's just common sense. If you don't know how your car works then how do you know your mechanic isn't ripping you off? Knowledge is a good thing. As far as violence goes, been there done that got the t-shirt. I thought it was cool when I was younger. Now that I'm a little older and wiser I see it more as an unfortunate necessity under certain circumstances. Unless you're just wrong in the head there is really nothing cool about being covered in somebody else's gore, heck, it ain't even safe or sanitary. Martial training and combative sports in and of themselves are good fun though and teach useful skills, even if you hope never to have to use them. Quote:
Kicking above the waist is for Pros though. :)
Yeah, some guys are awfully good with a kick. I always liked to use my legs for standing on and moving around.

shades2 | 11-25-2007 12:40 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 845041) I agree. Actually I'd leave my shotgun loaded with lead instead of rubber if it was my primary defensive weapon, but I'm not that guy and I don't have the same feelings about wounding/killing badguys. I don't think his perspective makes him a wimp or that mine makes me macho, not everybody can or even should be the same on all points. It kind of goes full circle for me though, because my primary interest in shotguns is to have a nonlethal option as I have other guns that deliver more dire consequences. Too bad nobody has figured out a way to make a phaser that can be set to stun. "send any sane person running for the hills" is deceptive though... violent criminals can't honestly be called sane. I tend to not trust in the good sense or compassion of my enemies.
That's certainly true, you cannot really assume anything. I tend to size people up before they get into striking range though, if I have the benefit of time. Their body language, actions, and posture often give away their real intentions in the first second or two. It is much more reliable than anything they are saying, as it is a subconcious act they usually are not aware of and can't cover up. Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 845041) The way I see it any weapon is a martial arts weapon, by definition. There is a whole lot more to gunfighting than just changing mags, pulling the trigger and hitting targets, for example. In fact there are a great many different styles and approaches to gunfighting. But yes, it starts with understanding on a spiritual and intellectual level and flows from there into physical manifestation.
Well I'd say that not any weapon is a martial arts weapon. A javelin or discus to take some rather silly examples. I can't think of a modern martial art that teaches you how to throw a javelin, but it was a very effective weapon of war in ancient times. Martial arts are exactly that, arts, and they tend to stick to a select few weapons in training, which are purpose designed for use. Martial arts in fact, usually don't translate that well into most real-life defensive situations, as they are a lot more chaotic than a set piece approach during training. Where a branch, rock or other handy item becomes a weapon. Not many of us have been in a gunfight, or know what to do in one. The most obvious action is to seek cover (returning fire if you can), or keep moving. If you are losing it mentally, you are not going to be able to react properly, so you have to have that ability to have visualised the possibility of such a thing possibly occurring beforehand, and to switch on your mental state to act, rather than freeze up like rabbits as most people would. Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 845041) I've long believed that you should understand how everything you depend on works, even if you don't do everything for yourself. It's just common sense. If you don't know how your car works then how do you know your mechanic isn't ripping you off? Knowledge is a good thing. As far as violence goes, been there done that got the t-shirt. I thought it was cool when I was younger. Now that I'm a little older and wiser I see it more as an unfortunate necessity under certain circumstances. Unless you're just wrong in the head there is really nothing cool about being covered in somebody else's gore, heck, it ain't even safe or sanitary. Martial training and combative sports in and of themselves are good fun though and teach useful skills, even if you hope never to have to use them.
Indeed. I make an effort to learn about the things around me, sometimes in great detail. I've avoided most violent conflict with other people, as I don't like to seek out such things, particularly as an adult. I have come to realise that other people can act in a really irrational and dangerous manner, and to expect anything from them, especially when alcohol or drugs are involved. However, sometimes violence, or the potential of violence seeks you out as an unwilling participant, even when you're minding your own business walking down the street. Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 845041) Yeah, some guys are awfully good with a kick. I always liked to use my legs for standing on and moving around.
Heh heh... The thing about legs is power, range, and surprise. Kicking low (mainly below the waist) can break a person's knee or incapacitate them completely. Often people are fixated on your head, and will attempt to initiate a fight by striking you to the head. A straight kick can be delivered very quickly also, but you do open yourself up at that point. You can probably deliver a straight kick to the sternum or chin in half a second to just under a second, which is very fast considering the power of the strike. Once you raise a foot off the ground though you are committed, you are more easily knocked or taken off balance, so you have to have a backup plan for that, and move swiftly to stop counters. If you are no good with your legs for delivering strikes, then you are better off using them for footwork, and relying on hand grappling and striking ability.

REV127 | 11-25-2007 01:03 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 845101) Well I'd say that not any weapon is a martial arts weapon. A javelin or discus to take some rather silly examples.
I'm not so sure about that. They both require much skill to throw optimally and employing them in combat goes beyond just throwing something at somebody. Quote:
Martial arts in fact, usually don't translate that well into most real-life defensive situations, as they are a lot more chaotic than a set piece approach during training. Where a branch, rock or other handy item becomes a weapon.
That would depend on what definition of "martial arts" you accept. The term itself has its roots in antiquity back in Europe, stemming from "the arts of Mars" and relating directly to war and fighting skills. Of course other cultures at other places and times developed fighting arts of their own too, including sporting forms and many people now lump them all together under the "martial arts" heading. Not every martial art currently practiced is very useful, some because they were never intended to be and others because they aren't taught correctly. At the same time not knowing how to fight is not an advantage in a fight. Quote:
Heh heh... The thing about legs is power, range, and surprise. Kicking low (mainly below the waist) can break a person's knee or incapacitate them completely. Often people are fixated on your head, and will attempt to initiate a fight by striking you to the head. A straight kick can be delivered very quickly also, but you do open yourself up at that point. You can probably deliver a straight kick to the sternum or chin in half a second to just under a second, which is very fast considering the power of the strike. Once you raise a foot off the ground though you are committed, you are more easily knocked or taken off balance, so you have to have a backup plan for that, and move swiftly to stop counters. If you are no good with your legs for delivering strikes, then you are better off using them for footwork, and relying on hand grappling and striking ability.
It takes more to break a bone or joint than most people realize. There really isn't a good way to practice that, either. Being able to attack from an unexpected direction is a great advantage but the highest technique is to be able to attack and defend in the same motion. Actually that's a good way to measure any fighting art, if it's all parry-riposte it isn't very well developed and won't be a fight winner. That isn't to say you won't win a given fight, it's just that it comes down to a slugfest again and you haven't really stacked the odds in your favor through skill. I mostly use my legs for footwork and mobility but they are also useful in grappling like giving a fall or throw. I'll kick, stomp, jump and a lot of other things, but under particular circumstances.

Kahlil Gibran | 11-25-2007 01:05 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 845101) That's certainly true, you cannot really assume anything. I tend to size people up before they get into striking range though, if I have the benefit of time. Their body language, actions, and posture often give away their real intentions in the first second or two. It is much more reliable than anything they are saying, as it is a subconcious act they usually are not aware of and can't cover up.
Since this is posted in the Survival Prep Section we might assume that wtshtf their real intentions will be obvious. They will want your stuff. Actions speak louder then words. Just listen for the growl in their empty stomach and ignore the nice words from their mouth. They will want your stuff.

Cassandra | 11-25-2007 01:51 PM
Re: I'm new to Survivalism Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 (Post 722354) As far as a firearm goes, get a .380 or larger. Something to consider with a first gun is the gun does you no good at all if it's left at home. Get your concealed weapons license and in the meantime it is perfectly legal to keep a loaded firearm in your glovebox or console in your car.
I wanted to point out that these laws are regional and in many states it is NOT legal to carry a firearm (loaded or no) in the glove box of one's car. In my state, it has to be in the trunk or a locked container, unloaded. Rev many have been speaking about FL laws (?), but everyone should DYODD regarding state & local laws on firearms. Concealed carry permit would be a good idea if you're "there" already, but for my part, I wouldn't opt to carry until / unless society breaks down, after which time permits won't mean much. Great thread, btw. Thanks for the bump!

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