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- - Got a well that works, but needs repairs... (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=322278)

Ralleia | 11-14-2008 12:58 PM
Got a well that works, but needs repairs... We have a well that needs a couple repairs. While we're getting that done I had other questions. We have city water, so unless something serious happens, the well is only used for gardening. Q1: The pressure tank is rather old and really rusty on the inside. It works though. Should we go ahead and get it changed out to new while we're at it? Does the rust in the water harm plants? Q2: The pump currently runs off two 12 circuits in the power breaker in the house. I inquired about the possibility of putting in a manual pump, but it was cost prohibitive ($4-5K). This is not where we want to live forever (property taxes suck and legal restrictions suck, plus we have a stalker for a neighbor), so I think a backup generator would be a better choice? Thoughts please?

eat_beef | 11-14-2008 01:12 PM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... If the inside of the tank is rusty it will be ruined (leaking) in a few months anyway. If there is just rusty water inside the tank, you should be able to flush it easily. More than likely the rust is coming out of the well, and is already inside all the pipes. Every time you lose pressure, some of it breaks loose or is stirred up and makes it to the outlet. I don't know what kind of manual pump you're looking at, but I can get one locally for under a hundred bucks. Pumping any volume of water with a hand pump stinks, but not as much as not having water.

Tn...Andy | 11-14-2008 01:49 PM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... Q2: The pump currently runs off two 12 circuits in the power breaker in the house. I inquired about the possibility of putting in a manual pump, but it was cost prohibitive ($4-5K). This is not where we want to live forever (property taxes suck and legal restrictions suck, plus we have a stalker for a neighbor), so I think a backup generator would be a better choice? Did you mean to say "runs off two 120v circuits" ( as in it's a 240v pump ? ).....because what you said doesn't make sense. Are you planing to pump water when both the power and municipal water are off ? I'd probably pick generator since you don't plan to stay.....the generator could go with you more easily than pulling a hand pump you may have no use for......

Ralleia | 11-14-2008 02:09 PM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... Sorry--my bad. Yes, it's a double-pole breaker for 240 V. It is tied together with a window cutout that reads 20. So is that 20A or 40A?

Tn...Andy | 11-14-2008 02:19 PM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... For a well, it would be 20amp......and the pump probably draws a lot less than that actually........if you have a 3 wire pump with a control box mounted somewhere near that rusty tank, look on it and it will tell you the horsepower of the pump ( the box is matched to the pump size ). Once you know that, you can get the actual pump amp draw....then allow 30% or so over that for start up draw ( it spikes, then settles back to running load ) 15a @ 240v is probably plenty unless you have a really large pump or really deep well. That would be 3,600 watts.....the minimum generator size you could get by with ( and make sure it has 240v ability ) You can buy a decent 4,000 to 5,000 watt ( 5kw) generator for 500-700 bucks. I picked up a used Coleman 5kw for 300 bucks a few years back.....guy bought it for a snow storm power outage...used it about 10 hrs and sold it. They aren't GREAT generators and I wouldn't expect this one to last 1,000 hrs, but for the money, I've more than gotten my use out of it just on little projects around the farm. I have an 16hp Onan 8kw welder/generator that would be my primary if it came to that......

TechGuy | 11-14-2008 07:37 PM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... You know, the cost of the manual pumps and installation of such just drives me nuts. Just not practical. What I have been trying to figure out is how to use a very small 12volt pump and a small 1/4 id flexible line to pull water for simply survival purposes. A tube of this side could be easily slipped down beside the existing down tube without distrurbing anything. Even if it only pulled a 5 gallons a day, it would still be a HUGE plus for an emergency source. Any ideas on this would be appreciated.

peanuts | 11-14-2008 09:51 PM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... Quote:
Originally Posted by TechGuy (Post 1416674) What I have been trying to figure out is how to use a very small 12volt pump and a small 1/4 id flexible line to pull water for simply survival purposes. A tube of this side could be easily slipped down beside the existing down tube without distrurbing anything.
Two big problems to overcome. One - pushing DC voltage over wiring the depth of the well. (resistance) Two - pushing the water up the depth of the well. (head) There is a contraption, kind of a slim bucket with a valve on the bottom that could be used to hand dip water from a slim well. Gotta pull the pump and line first though.

TechGuy | 11-14-2008 10:04 PM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... Quote:
Originally Posted by peanuts (Post 1416845) Two big problems to overcome. One - pushing DC voltage over wiring the depth of the well. (resistance) Two - pushing the water up the depth of the well. (head) There is a contraption, kind of a slim bucket with a valve on the bottom that could be used to hand dip water from a slim well. Gotta pull the pump and line first though.
It would have to be a pull operation. But if you had 100ft of 1/4 inch tube, you would not be talking about much weight of water. Something along the lines of a small vacum pump.

Spectrism | 11-14-2008 10:29 PM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... Quote:
Originally Posted by TechGuy (Post 1416861) It would have to be a pull operation. But if you had 100ft of 1/4 inch tube, you would not be talking about much weight of water. Something along the lines of a small vacum pump.
The water head pressure is independent of the diameter of the pipe. In a flowing situation, the narrower diameter will be less efficient due to drag. RUSTY tank.... if it is a blue tank- not too old... then it probably has a rubber bladder inside for the air. I would get rid of your old tank VERY soon. The rust can do damage to your pipes, faucets, boiler....etc. Also, you may have a bacteria issue develop. If there is a rubber bladder in that tank that ruptured, you are exposing a surface that is not meant to come in contact with water. It will rust through. Also, if there is a rubber baldder- it either wore out with age, or was chemically attacked. If you are getting blue stains in sinks/ tub, then the water is rather acidic (low pH). You might want to check this. Testing the water quality might be a good idea if you will be there a while.

TechGuy | 11-14-2008 11:17 PM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectrism (Post 1416894) The water head pressure is independent of the diameter of the pipe. In a flowing situation, the narrower diameter will be less efficient due to drag.
Yeah, I can see that.... but if you get the flow low enough, this should be possible with a lower power system.

Tn...Andy | 11-15-2008 06:12 AM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... Don't believe it would work for more than a few feet of depth, Techguy....pumps push a whole lot better than they pull....and the 1/4" line would have a LOT of friction loss. Better way to go is to look at Grunfos SQ series pumps......they run about twice what a "normal" pump does for the same HP, but the SAME PUMP will operate at any voltage between 30V and 300V DC or 90-240V AC

Squirrel Bait | 11-15-2008 09:51 AM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... I think you can only "pull" water up a maximum of 32 feet. s

TechGuy | 11-15-2008 10:21 AM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... Ok, help me out here. In this scenario, the pressure (or rather the force that is required to lift the water) is a result of the weight of the water + friction of the pipe, If that is true, then a larger pipe would require more force to bring that column of water to the surface. So in this case it is not truly independent of pipe size in this instance. If I understand head pressure correctly. Water head pressure is independent of the pipe only when the water is pressurized, i.e. a large tank of water 200 ft up the hill will deliver the same head pressure regardless if the pipe at the bottom is 2 inches or 12. There is the friction penalty, but that should only show up in very small tubes. So my basic problem remains. What PSI of vacuum would be required to lift a 1/4 inch ID tube of water 100 ft?

Squirrel Bait | 11-16-2008 02:46 PM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... Quote:
Originally Posted by TechGuy (Post 1417328) Ok, help me out here. In this scenario, the pressure (or rather the force that is required to lift the water) is a result of the weight of the water + friction of the pipe, If that is true, then a larger pipe would require more force to bring that column of water to the surface. So in this case it is not truly independent of pipe size in this instance. If I understand head pressure correctly. Water head pressure is independent of the pipe only when the water is pressurized, i.e. a large tank of water 200 ft up the hill will deliver the same head pressure regardless if the pipe at the bottom is 2 inches or 12. There is the friction penalty, but that should only show up in very small tubes. So my basic problem remains. What PSI of vacuum would be required to lift a 1/4 inch ID tube of water 100 ft?
OK, at 32 feet of pulling water you reach the vapor pressure of water and it goes from liquid to gas(boiling) and you cannot draw the water any higher. Diameter doesn't matter(not much anyway). Make sense?? s

Meliorist | 11-16-2008 03:16 PM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... Quote:
Originally Posted by TechGuy (Post 1417328) In this scenario, the pressure (or rather the force that is required to lift the water) is a result of the weight of the water + friction of the pipe,
I'd think the length of the pipe is a more important variable.

TechGuy | 11-16-2008 03:23 PM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Bait (Post 1419021) OK, at 32 feet of pulling water you reach the vapor pressure of water and it goes from liquid to gas(boiling) and you cannot draw the water any higher. Diameter doesn't matter(not much anyway). Make sense?? s
That is what I was looking for. Thanks BTW> Do you know how many lb's of vacuum forces water to change state?

Squirrel Bait | 11-16-2008 03:57 PM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... Uh, nope. I do know it happens at, or around 63,000 feet. Above that your blood will boil, which I would assume would be at 98.6 F. I would think you could find a chart somewhere. s

TechGuy | 11-16-2008 05:39 PM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... 1 Attachment(s) Ok, got it. Here is the answer. So it looks like when the weight of the column of water eventually causes the water to change state into vapor, until the vacuum pressure is relieved... So it is essentially impossible to pull from any signifigant depth.

mtnman | 11-16-2008 06:06 PM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralleia (Post 1415983) We have a well that needs a couple repairs. While we're getting that done I had other questions. We have city water, so unless something serious happens, the well is only used for gardening. Q1: The pressure tank is rather old and really rusty on the inside. It works though. Should we go ahead and get it changed out to new while we're at it? Does the rust in the water harm plants? Q2: The pump currently runs off two 12 circuits in the power breaker in the house. I inquired about the possibility of putting in a manual pump, but it was cost prohibitive ($4-5K). This is not where we want to live forever (property taxes suck and legal restrictions suck, plus we have a stalker for a neighbor), so I think a backup generator would be a better choice? Thoughts please?
Hand pump at harbor freight $25, a few lengths of PVC pipe and a foot valve. All of this should be no more than $150 and take about 3 hours to set up. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...temnumber=1318

.925 | 12-12-2008 04:58 PM
Re: Got a well that works, but needs repairs... If you're going to use it to irrigate, lose the pressure tank altogether. Turn on the pump when you want water, turn it off when you're done. No pressure switch, just a straight manual swit:yes:ch. Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralleia (Post 1415983) We have a well that needs a couple repairs. While we're getting that done I had other questions. We have city water, so unless something serious happens, the well is only used for gardening. Q1: The pressure tank is rather old and really rusty on the inside. It works though. Should we go ahead and get it changed out to new while we're at it? Does the rust in the water harm plants? Q2: The pump currently runs off two 12 circuits in the power breaker in the house. I inquired about the possibility of putting in a manual pump, but it was cost prohibitive ($4-5K). This is not where we want to live forever (property taxes suck and legal restrictions suck, plus we have a stalker for a neighbor), so I think a backup generator would be a better choice? Thoughts please?

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