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Darkside | 11-03-2008 10:10 AM
substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Any bread experts here? I know we have at least one who made an awesome bread making post on the GD forum but I cant seem to find it anymore... Anyway, I am wondering what does one need to consider when substituting a recipe with white flour to whole wheat flour, like a bread or a roll? Is it just a straight substitution or does one need to make adjustments to accommodate this change?

tulsamal | 11-03-2008 10:22 AM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Do you mean "real whole wheat flour" like you end up with when you grind your own wheat or do you mean store bought whole wheat flour? It makes a difference. The store bought stuff is sold off a shelf. Not refrigerated. That should tell you something. If you grind up some flour at home and then set it aside in a sealed bag on a shelf at room temperature, it will go rancid on you. The store bought stuff has whole wheat flour from which they have removed "some stuff" in order to make it not spoil. But that stuff is good for you. Plus they also mix in white flour with the whole wheat! As you can see, I'm not a big fan of the whole wheat you buy at room temperature in a basic grocery store. Buy a grinder and real wheat in five gallon buckets and grind your own when you need it. To wander back to your original question, real whole wheat doesn't "act" the same in a recipe as generic white flour. You get a heavier bread because it doesn't want to rise as much. I wouldn't just take any old generic white flour recipe and change it to whole wheat without adding something. Maybe some honey to give the yeast more to eat. And go to an Amish store and buy some dough enhancer. It is mainly soy but it helps the dough to rise better. Last bit of practical advice. You have to adjust a dough as you add the flour. I measure my liquids so that I will stay in the four loaf at a time ballpark and not exceed the capacity of my Bosch mixer. But different flours will need different amounts of water. So you can't just blindly add 12 cups of flour, etc. I just keep gradually adding flour until I get the consistency I want. People who watch me make bread always comment on the fact that I don't actually measure any of that stuff. Gregg

woodman | 11-03-2008 10:30 AM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour You'll get a much nicer loaf if you add a couple of tablespoons of vital wheat gluten. This can be found at health food stores and probably any grocery store. I get mine at the local natural foods store. The loaf will be quite dense without it. I believe it was Danubian who had a wonderfull thread on breadmaking in the general discussion area.

goddess | 11-03-2008 10:37 AM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Second the gluten. You'll end up with a brick if you don't add it and you need to let WW bread rise longer.

tulsamal | 11-03-2008 11:03 AM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
You'll get a much nicer loaf if you add a couple of tablespoons of vital wheat gluten.
If you grind your own wheat, the gluten will already be there! Gregg

Gknowmx | 11-03-2008 11:31 AM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
Originally Posted by tulsamal (Post 1394131) If you grind your own wheat, the gluten will already be there! Gregg
But not in the necessary ratios to get good lift. As I understand, the sharp bran fibers present in raw wheat flour reduce the ability of long gluten fibers from forming as they do in white flour by slicing through the gluten fibers thus making them short. The longer gluten fibers are what allow larger CO2 pockets to form causing the dough to rise.

woodman | 11-03-2008 11:36 AM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
Originally Posted by tulsamal (Post 1394131) If you grind your own wheat, the gluten will already be there! Gregg
I would love to grind my own grain. Where does one economically buy decent amounts of grain for table use? Shipping seems to be a killer for me. I have even considered going to the local elevator. I don't know why the grains wouldn't be just as good for human use. I don't know where to get non-gm corn anymore but I understand wheat is still natural. By the way, don't be afraid to experiment with your breads. I often toss in cornmeal and other stuff like nuts and fruits or what have you. The Germans have many awesome styles of bread, some of them are extremely dense and flavorfull.

Darkside | 11-03-2008 12:02 PM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour hey thanks for the replies guys! I do in fact have whole wheat berries from hard red winter wheat. It contains 6g protein so I am perplexed as to why someone would need to add gluten to flour ground from wheat with this much protein in it- most bread flours I see in the store have only 4g protein and they don't call for adding gluten to them? What kind of yeast do I want to use in a whole wheat bread, any difference in proofing or rising? I like the idea of adding honey but I am a bit hesitant to add anything soy based. Not for fear of growing man boobs but because of the excitotoxin glutamate in products derived from soy

Gknowmx | 11-03-2008 12:43 PM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
Originally Posted by woodman (Post 1394180) I would love to grind my own grain. Where does one economically buy decent amounts of grain for table use? Shipping seems to be a killer for me. I have even considered going to the local elevator. I don't know why the grains wouldn't be just as good for human use. I don't know where to get non-gm corn anymore but I understand wheat is still natural. By the way, don't be afraid to experiment with your breads. I often toss in cornmeal and other stuff like nuts and fruits or what have you. The Germans have many awesome styles of bread, some of them are extremely dense and flavorfull.
I just bought 2 bushel of white and 2 bushel of red wheat from a local farmer for $30. We were both happy. I vaccum packed it in 1/2 gal glass jars. Whole Foods sells wheat berries but the same amount of wheat would have cost me $300. This is my first year making honey. I made 5 1/2 gallons from my first hive. I have been making maple sugar for years and use that as well. I agree, it is worth experimenting.

Gknowmx | 11-03-2008 12:53 PM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkside (Post 1394229) hey thanks for the replies guys! I do in fact have whole wheat berries from hard red winter wheat. It contains 6g protein so I am perplexed as to why someone would need to add gluten to flour ground from wheat with this much protein in it- most bread flours I see in the store have only 4g protein and they don't call for adding gluten to them?
Again, I don't think it is a matter of how much protein, but the FORM of that protein and what is effectively available to form vast interglobbing (VIG, as the Mogambu Guru might say) networks of long fibers capable of trapping CO2. The shards of sharp bran fiber slash the proteins to smitherines as you knead the dough. Thus, by mass action, if you start with more protein, you get more net VIG. It seems that based on this logic, you can over knead a whole wheat dough, even if you add gluten. I am not an expert by any stretch, but from personal experience, I have failed at making what I think is acceptible whole wheat bread. I, too, am open to sage advice from those who know they are good. :adore:

Saul Mine | 11-03-2008 12:57 PM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour I have made my share of hockey pucks and door stops and I have learned one thing for sure: people who make good bread don't know how they do it. They work by feel and measure by the glug system. (That's where you tip a bottle and the liquid goes "glug" as it comes out.) Some other things I have noticed: * In my area you have to add more water than the recipe calls for to get the dough to rise enough. * Yeast is way cheaper if you buy it by the pound at a restaurant supply store. * Yeast will keep for years in the freezer. * It doesn't hurt to use more yeast to see if that helps the rising. * Mixing half white flour and half whole wheat helps more than anything else. And the general rule: * If something doesn't work, try something else.

woodman | 11-03-2008 06:17 PM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkside (Post 1394229) hey thanks for the replies guys! I do in fact have whole wheat berries from hard red winter wheat. It contains 6g protein so I am perplexed as to why someone would need to add gluten to flour ground from wheat with this much protein in it- most bread flours I see in the store have only 4g protein and they don't call for adding gluten to them? What kind of yeast do I want to use in a whole wheat bread, any difference in proofing or rising? I like the idea of adding honey but I am a bit hesitant to add anything soy based. Not for fear of growing man boobs but because of the excitotoxin glutamate in products derived from soy
All I can tell you is what I know works. If you have a problem with your bread not rising enough, add vital wheat gluten and as Saul says, add more water. Double D loaves Bro. As for yeast I am no stickler, I get it in bulk at Sam's Club.

tulsamal | 11-03-2008 06:32 PM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
But not in the necessary ratios to get good lift.
I went to a class about five years ago. The lady who taught the class had her father die young of colon cancer. She was a nurse today. So it was her mission to encourage people to grind their own grain and make their own bread. And I've been making my own bread from flour I ground for the last five years. I make a "standard bread" from a mixture of white and red wheat. And I make a nut and raisin loaf bread that includes black beans for my wife. We eat about two loaves a week. So that's a lot of bread. And I've never added any gluten to any of them. Sometimes they puff up so big they won't fit in the toaster. The only "special thing" I do is to add a bit of the dough enhancer I mentioned before. I buy it and my yeast at an Amish store. Gregg

woodman | 11-03-2008 07:39 PM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
Originally Posted by tulsamal (Post 1394934) I went to a class about five years ago. The lady who taught the class had her father die young of colon cancer. She was a nurse today. So it was her mission to encourage people to grind their own grain and make their own bread. And I've been making my own bread from flour I ground for the last five years. I make a "standard bread" from a mixture of white and red wheat. And I make a nut and raisin loaf bread that includes black beans for my wife. We eat about two loaves a week. So that's a lot of bread. And I've never added any gluten to any of them. Sometimes they puff up so big they won't fit in the toaster. The only "special thing" I do is to add a bit of the dough enhancer I mentioned before. I buy it and my yeast at an Amish store. Gregg
I've never tried 'dough enhancer'. Will it make my money go further?:biggrin:

Merlin | 11-03-2008 08:13 PM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
Originally Posted by Gknowmx (Post 1394340) Again, I don't think it is a matter of how much protein, but the FORM of that protein and what is effectively available to form vast interglobbing (VIG, as the Mogambu Guru might say) networks of long fibers capable of trapping CO2. The shards of sharp bran fiber slash the proteins to smitherines as you knead the dough. Thus, by mass action, if you start with more protein, you get more net VIG. It seems that based on this logic, you can over knead a whole wheat dough, even if you add gluten. I am not an expert by any stretch, but from personal experience, I have failed at making what I think is acceptible whole wheat bread. I, too, am open to sage advice from those who know they are good. :adore:
I don't believe I'm sage; but I do know that you are 100% correct about the affect of the bran. I've seen what happens. I cover my dough to rise with plastic wrap, which tends to seal around the edge of the bowl and the edge of the pan. After the bread has risen for 40 minutes or so, you will frequently see that the plastic wrap is bulging upward like a balloon with the top of the bread a half inch or so below. The gas given off by the yeast, instead of rising the bread has escaped and blown up the plastic wrap! You can actually prove it to yourself. Some time, try sifting your freshly milled whole wheat flour. That will strain out all the bran and you will see the difference in the bread you bake. Having said that, you'll probably want the bran in your bread because it's good for you, so add the gluten flour and perhaps add a little more yeast for good measure. The wheat berries you use also makes a difference. I've found (from sifting experiments), that the Golden 86 Hard White wheat that I bought from Walton's has significantly less bran. That's one reason, I believe, why that wheat makes such a great loaf of bread. P.S., I've also baked plenty of whole wheat bricks -- even with gluten flour. P.P.S, IMHO, the effect of the bran is less noticeable in the whole wheat sour dough recipes. I believe that is because the recipe frequently calls for letting the dough rest in the refrigerator overnight, giving the bran a chance to soak and soften. If you don't mind the extra work, you could soak the bran you've sifted out of your flour and add it back in when you're ready to bake a regular loaf.

tulsamal | 11-03-2008 08:58 PM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
I believe that is because the recipe frequently calls for letting the dough rest in the refrigerator overnight, giving the bran a chance to soak and soften.
I've never done that. I let my dough rise for between 20 and 40 minutes. Seems to vary with the batch and with the ambient temperature of the kitchen. I keep an eye on it after 20 minutes or so. Unless I did something wrong, about half an hour is enough. Gregg

tulsamal | 11-03-2008 09:02 PM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour The lady who taught my class was named Bev. I ended up going to three of her classes. And I used to buy my wheat and various products from her until I found other sources. You might find some useful information on her website. Her cookbook is very much worth ordering. http://cookingwithgrains.com/ Gregg

Darkside | 11-04-2008 11:20 AM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin (Post 1395155) P.P.S, IMHO, the effect of the bran is less noticeable in the whole wheat sour dough recipes. I believe that is because the recipe frequently calls for letting the dough rest in the refrigerator overnight, giving the bran a chance to soak and soften.
So can we do the same thing with regular bread? Would there be a good reason not to let the dough sit in the fridge overnight bran and everything included before baking?

Gknowmx | 11-04-2008 11:26 AM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkside (Post 1396303) So can we do the same thing with regular bread? Would there be a good reason not to let the dough sit in the fridge overnight bran and everything included before baking?
I was wondering the same thing.

Merlin | 11-04-2008 11:38 AM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkside (Post 1396303) So can we do the same thing with regular bread? Would there be a good reason not to let the dough sit in the fridge overnight bran and everything included before baking?
I have had good success with conventional recipes in the refrigerator overnight. Just this past Friday, I was expecting guests from out of town for dinner Friday evening and had the regular whole wheat dough processing in the bread machine when they called to say they had been delayed and wouldn't be arriving until Saturday. I let the bread rise for the first time, formed it into the dinner rolls I had planned, placed the rolls in a greased baking pan covered with plastic wrap and refrigerated it until the following day. Because of the cool temperatures, the dough did not rise much until I removed it about 2 hours before I wanted to bake the rolls. They turned out fine. If you google "bread dough recipe refrigerator" you will find many references. Someone advised that you use a little extra yeast, however, if you plan to freeze the dough which is another alternative.

leadfoot | 11-04-2008 07:36 PM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour I'm going to give this "bread thing" a try as I've got my grains and my backup grinder. Is anybody making their breads w/o a bread maker or food processer? I want to find out what works under less than ideal conditions - no electricity, no refrigerators, no enhancers unless they can be stocked, etc. One of my concerns is yeast. Once a freezer is no longer available yeast stocks eventually go bad don't they?

Merlin | 11-04-2008 08:14 PM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
Originally Posted by leadfoot (Post 1397332) One of my concerns is yeast. Once a freezer is no longer available yeast stocks eventually go bad don't they?
Yes, they do. And that's where sourdough bread comes in. You keep the yeast alive on your kitchen counter and don't need a freezer/refrigerator. I did it for about 6 months myself just to prove I could, but eventually got tired of the project. It's comforting knowing I could bake bread without commercial yeast if I had to. It's not rocket science. I've used the bread machine to process the dough because... I'm lazy? More than that, I'm the only one in the house who prefers a steady diet of whole wheat bread. Most of the bread recipes that you knead yourself make 2 or 3 loaves at one time. Has anyone actually done a single loaf of bread from scratch including the kneading? If not, I'll try it tomorrow and let you know how it turns out.

nub | 11-04-2008 08:55 PM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
Originally Posted by tulsamal (Post 1394131) If you grind your own wheat, the gluten will already be there! Gregg
tulsamal ,I believe you are correct I've made at least 100 loafs of home ground whole wheat bread and last night were the nicest fluffiest loafs I've made to date and the recipe calls for no dough enhancers what-so-ever. I used enhancers in all of my other batches .......I feel the problem in the past was water being to hot , that and I was using to much water which caused me to use more flour which threw off the ratios causing the loafs not to rise correctly........after this next batch providing it comes out as well as last nights batch I may try the enhancer once again to see if it improves much but I don't see how it could, my last loafs were as good as any I've had anywhere Here's the recipe I use...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYq2r205PEU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYq2r205PEU

CJT | 11-05-2008 07:17 AM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour I'm new here (more or less, been a member since March but just now got posting privileges) but I have a suggestion that changed bread making for me. Buy these three things: http://www.amazon.com/Artisan-Bread-Five-Minutes-Revolutionizes/dp/0312362919/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225887387&sr=8-1 Amazon http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/detail.jsp?id=5568 http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/detail.jsp?id=5060 and you'll have the easiest bread ever with the best flavor and crust! You simply mix a very wet dough very briefly in the bucket, let it rise a couple hours on the counter, and then refrigerate it. Anytime you want bread, simply tear off a chunk, shape and rise it, and bake it. I save a chunk from each batch to start the next, so it always has a fabulous sour dough taste and wonderful crust. As for whole wheat, I grind my own flour (I like Montana gold which is a white wheat) and make our sandwich bread out of whole wheat. The trick I've found for a light loaf is to keep the dough wet and use vital wheat gluten.

nub | 11-05-2008 07:43 AM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
Originally Posted by CJT (Post 1398540) I'm new here (more or less, been a member since March but just now got posting privileges) but I have a suggestion that changed bread making for me. Buy these three things: http://www.amazon.com/Artisan-Bread-...5887387&sr=8-1 http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/detail.jsp?id=5568 http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/detail.jsp?id=5060 and you'll have the easiest bread ever with the best flavor and crust! You simply mix a very wet dough very briefly in the bucket, let it rise a couple hours on the counter, and then refrigerate it. Anytime you want bread, simply tear off a chunk, shape and rise it, and bake it. I save a chunk from each batch to start the next, so it always has a fabulous sour dough taste and wonderful crust. As for whole wheat, I grind my own flour (I like Montana gold which is a white wheat) and make our sandwich bread out of whole wheat. The trick I've found for a light loaf is to keep the dough wet and use vital wheat gluten.
I bought the book, thanks CJT:ok:.....with a few adjustments I think the recipes will work well with my home ground flour.......no pre-ground for me.

CJT | 11-05-2008 09:10 AM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Nub, if you like thin and crispy pizza crust, the master recipe in the book makes an awesome crust. I prebake mine til' lightly brown before adding toppings. I also do these breads at 475 degrees, which is hotter than the book recommends, I think it yields a superior loaf. We do stuffed breads on the grill with this dough as well, on a pizza stone. Great stuff and super easy!

Merlin | 11-05-2008 11:15 AM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
Originally Posted by nub (Post 1397502) Here's the recipe I use......
Good grief, man. Your family must eat an awful lot of bread! That lady must have put 12 or 13 cups of flour into her mixer. My bread machine recipes call for 3 cups of flour for one loaf. That's what I made by hand this morning. I was worried that the ball of dough would be too small to handle properly. But everything went fine. Now, I'm not sure but what it is easier to knead the dough by hand than it is to get the bread machine down off the shelf or carry the mixer up from the basement, LOL.

tulsamal | 11-05-2008 01:13 PM
Re: substituting white wheat w/ whole wheat flour Quote:
Good grief, man. Your family must eat an awful lot of bread! That lady must have put 12 or 13 cups of flour into her mixer.
I make our basic white bread every two weeks or so. The recipe starts out with ten cups of whole wheat flour straight out of the grinder. Then you add another four to six cups after you mix in the yeast. So that's a total of 14 to 16 cups of real flour. Makes four big loaves with a little left over for something for dinner that night. I grind my wheat with a Nutrimill. (Works great grinding corn as well.) Then I mix my dough with a Bosch Universal. Those two pieces of equipment make it a lot easier. Gregg

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