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- - Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=436368)

nickelless | 12-31-2009 05:43 PM
Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? I've been vacuum-sealing 5-lb. bags of beans in mylar bags but unfortunately I'm only able to fit 3 5-lb. vac-sealed bags of beans in a 5-gallon bucket because of how rigid the bags are--they aren't very pliable, so I can't just cram them into a bucket without breaking the vacuum seal. So I was wondering, is it just as good to seal up bags that aren't vacuum-tight but will fit in a bucket so I can get 25 lbs. of beans in a bucket instead of just 15 lbs.? I realize that vacuum sealing is the best way to go with grains and dehydrated foods, but will beans be OK for long-term storage without a total vacuum? I'm guessing that weevils shouldn't be a problem if I move the beans directly from their store packaging to mylar and then put the bags right into a bucket and put the lid on.

TechGuy | 12-31-2009 05:53 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? The longer they sit without being completely sealed they take much longer to cook. Being sealed in mylar should prevent that mostly. Long term shelf life? Who knows, but I am unwilling to chance my long term storage for it. This problem of smaller bags not fitting in 5 gals is EXACTLY why I started doing 1/2 gallon masons. I know for sure they are sealed, and I can see them.

Heimdhal | 12-31-2009 06:04 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? Ive been throwing them in mason jars with oxy obsorbers, and it seems to work quite well. I dont vacc seal the mason jars, just throw in a couple 02 packets and they stay pretty sealed.

silverJeep | 12-31-2009 06:41 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? I would vacuum seal anything but soup.

melbo | 12-31-2009 06:51 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? I actually do vacuum seal soup... I make 5 times the chili we need and then fill bags and stack them flat in the freezer. It's a little tricky to time the seal but they have lasted yrs without any problems. Try it! http://www.survivalmonkey.com/forum/...1&d=1128273046

Silver Stater | 12-31-2009 07:21 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? I had the same problem. I now cut the mylar bag in half, seal the cut sides, and then fill them with beans. Then you can stack the smaller bags upright in the bucket and fit almost twice as much. I just toss an O2 absorber in before I seal and it works great. Also, its more convienent to open the smaller bag when you need them instead of a large bag it would take awhile to use.

nickelless | 01-01-2010 04:21 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? Quote:
Originally Posted by silverJeep (Post 2102900) I would vacuum seal anything but soup.
But what I'm asking is if less than a total vacuum is OK with beans--that is, so the bags of beans won't be so rigid that I can't fit more than 15 lbs. worth in a 5-gallon bucket. Will a small amount of air negatively affect the beans in a mylar bag?

TechGuy | 01-01-2010 04:33 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelless (Post 2104017) But what I'm asking is if less than a total vacuum is OK with beans--that is, so the bags of beans won't be so rigid that I can't fit more than 15 lbs. worth in a 5-gallon bucket. Will a small amount of air negatively affect the beans in a mylar bag?
Any oxygen will cause the beans to dgrade. What you need to do then: Get you some oxyabsorbers. Place the oxyobsorbers in the bag, maby 2x more than you need. Seal the bag. Toss in the bucket. The oxy absorbers take a while to work, so it will be hours before the bags get to the rock hard stage. Plenty of time to fill your bucket and seal.

Professur | 01-01-2010 05:21 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? Does noone use the square buckets? I had a bunch of those from restaurants.

silverJeep | 01-01-2010 07:27 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelless (Post 2104017) But what I'm asking is if less than a total vacuum is OK with beans--that is, so the bags of beans won't be so rigid that I can't fit more than 15 lbs. worth in a 5-gallon bucket. Will a small amount of air negatively affect the beans in a mylar bag?
I was joking.:wink:

Squirrel Bait | 01-01-2010 09:21 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelless (Post 2102813) I've been vacuum-sealing 5-lb. bags of beans in mylar bags but unfortunately I'm only able to fit 3 5-lb. vac-sealed bags of beans in a 5-gallon bucket because of how rigid the bags are--they aren't very pliable, so I can't just cram them into a bucket without breaking the vacuum seal. So I was wondering, is it just as good to seal up bags that aren't vacuum-tight but will fit in a bucket so I can get 25 lbs. of beans in a bucket instead of just 15 lbs.? I realize that vacuum sealing is the best way to go with grains and dehydrated foods, but will beans be OK for long-term storage without a total vacuum? I'm guessing that weevils shouldn't be a problem if I move the beans directly from their store packaging to mylar and then put the bags right into a bucket and put the lid on.
I disagree with your statement here, that vacuum is the best way. Vacuum is better than nothing, but Oxygen absorbers are better. CO2 or N2 is probably better yet, but most don't want to go through the hassle. Tech Guy is right, if you want to stick with vacuum sealing everything, jars work the best The most important concept for any dry goods storage is getting the oxygen out. sb

nickelless | 01-01-2010 10:21 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Bait (Post 2104389) I disagree with your statement here, that vacuum is the best way. Vacuum is better than nothing, but Oxygen absorbers are better. CO2 or N2 is probably better yet, but most don't want to go through the hassle. Tech Guy is right, if you want to stick with vacuum sealing everything, jars work the best The most important concept for any dry goods storage is getting the oxygen out. sb
How can you vacuum-seal jars and why would vacuum-sealing mylar bags not work? If all of the air is sucked out of a bag and all that's left is a residual amount of air amid the product, and since air is only 21 percent oxygen, why would vacuum-sealed mylar bags not suffice? Here's the sealer I use: http://www.sorbentsystems.com/sinbosealer.html I think vacuum-sealing beans or other bulk items in mason jars is a waste of money. At a dozen mason jars for about $9, I spend more than the price of the beans or rice or whatever else and still have a whole bunch of product left when I run out of jars. I think 25 lbs. of rice or beans in a 5-gallon vacuum-sealed mylar bag with the air sucked out of it should be sufficient, shouldn't it? Convince me otherwise if I'm wrong, but from a cost-efficiency standpoint relative to the effectiveness of removing air from mylar bags with a vacuum sealer, I can't see how using mason jars for bulk beans or grains makes any sense.

StackerKen | 01-01-2010 10:25 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? we only use the jars for stuff that might poke the mylar bags. Like pasta

nickelless | 01-01-2010 11:01 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaCannin (Post 2104478) Attachment 84872 Put these in your bags!!!! Why take a chance with air leakage, broken bags, aluminum leaching into your food. Sure its cheaper to put stuff in mylar, but I would rather have piece of mind with food stored glass or cans.
OK, so what types of food items should be vacuum-sealed in mylar? And just because something is vacuum-sealed doesn't mean the seal will be prematurely broken, and like I said above, air is only 21 percent oxygen, so if virtually all air is sucked out of a vacuum-sealed mylar bag, how much oxygen is left, really? It can't be much at all. I'm wanting arguments against my process for vacuum-sealing because I'm not seeing what the problem is, given the equipment and process that is normally used for vacuum-sealing with a snorkel-nosed sealer such as I bought from Sorbent Systems.

Squirrel Bait | 01-01-2010 11:25 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelless (Post 2104485) OK, so what types of food items should be vacuum-sealed in mylar? And just because something is vacuum-sealed doesn't mean the seal will be prematurely broken, and like I said above, air is only 21 percent oxygen, so if virtually all air is sucked out of a vacuum-sealed mylar bag, how much oxygen is left, really? It can't be much at all. I'm wanting arguments against my process for vacuum-sealing because I'm not seeing what the problem is, given the equipment and process that is normally used for vacuum-sealing with a snorkel-nosed sealer such as I bought from Sorbent Systems.
Well, we aren't saying it won't work, and the new 8 mil mylar that Sorbent Sys carries is probably real good, but the problem I see with the vacuum methode is you when you creat a vacuum that means that something is always trying to get in due to the difference in pressure. However if you purge the O2 with CO2 or N2 you have no pressure differential. The other problem with mylar only is a small pinhole, or a bite from a mouse will break the seal. The Mormans have shown that CO2 and N2 in #10 can will preserve wheat for as much as 30-40 years. Ensuring a vacuum for that long in mylar might be more difficult. A mason jar on the other hand will probably be successful. No process is perfect though. All have advantages and disadvantages. s

mightymanx | 01-01-2010 11:36 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? Call me a heritic, but I use food grade buckets with gama seal lids and 4 big o2 absorbers 2 bottom and 2 top, no bags mylar or otherwise. I let the o2 absorbers absorb for a few days and I then get about another 1/2 turn on the gamma seal lid from the o2 loss. I do salt, beans, rice, popcorn, and baking soda this way. Baking soda you ask. Well it has a bazillion uses toothpaste etc and is used to reconstitute really dry beans if you did not know. Here is the baking soda bean trick another helpfull tip from the LDS church. Quote:
Originally Posted by LDS storage FAQ The longer dry beans are stored, the longer they may take to cook. First, sort and rinse the beans. For each cup of beans, bring 3 cups of water to boil, add the beans to the boiling water, and boil for two minutes. Next, add 3/8 teaspoon of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) for each cup of beans, cover, and soak for 1 hour or more. More baking soda may be required for older beans. Next, drain and rinse the beans thoroughly, cover with water, bring to boil, then reduce heat and simmer 1-2 hours or until tender. Do not add salt or other ingredients until the beans have softened adequately. See All Is Safely Gathered In: Family Home Storage Basic Recipes for additional information.
http://providentliving.org/content/d...tml#question_8

nickelless | 01-02-2010 12:13 AM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Bait (Post 2104511) Well, we aren't saying it won't work, and the new 8 mil mylar that Sorbent Sys carries is probably real good, but the problem I see with the vacuum methode is you when you creat a vacuum that means that something is always trying to get in due to the difference in pressure. However if you purge the O2 with CO2 or N2 you have no pressure differential. The other problem with mylar only is a small pinhole, or a bite from a mouse will break the seal. The Mormans have shown that CO2 and N2 in #10 can will preserve wheat for as much as 30-40 years. Ensuring a vacuum for that long in mylar might be more difficult. A mason jar on the other hand will probably be successful. No process is perfect though. All have advantages and disadvantages. s
But if the sealed mylar bags are inside 5-gallon buckets with lids on the buckets, I don't think pinholes or mice or other critters would be an issue unless the lid was taken off...which is why I'd leave the lids on and keep the vacuum seals intact. Vacuum-sealed coffee in the foil-type packages doesn't seem to have any problems, so if the packaging itself is kept undisturbed, I wouldn't think the mylar would be an issue. But I'm still trying to get a definitive answer to my original question about beans and a less-than-perfect vacuum inside sealed mylar bags. And by the way, Mightymanx, why do you put salt in gamma-seal buckets?? It won't lose its properties if it gets a little moisture, and it doesn't have a shelf life--it lasts forever.

mightymanx | 01-02-2010 12:36 AM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelless (Post 2104551) And by the way, Mightymanx, why do you put salt in gamma-seal buckets?? It won't lose its properties if it gets a little moisture, and it doesn't have a shelf life--it lasts forever.
in a word "Durability" Now the long version: I would be not happy if I ripped open a 25lb bag of salt moving it by catching it on the corner of anything. I also live in a super wet climate (near Seattle) so if/when I need to flee to better areas, bags of salt bouncing around in the back of my truck will get torn and probably washed away by the rain. The o2 absorbers in the salt help to pull a slight vacuum on the bucket to seal better. It was not worth the cost to get salt in #10 cans shipped to me the buckets work great. 50lbs of salt fit perfect in a 5 gallon bucket with a gamma seal lid.

TechGuy | 01-02-2010 08:59 AM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? You guys need to remember that mylar is NOT a super long term storage medium. It is better than plastic buckets alone, and will drastically increase storage time if you use oxy absorbers... but eventually oxy will seep in. If you go to the LDS cannery, you have a choice of #10 or mylar. ALL the mylar is rated for less storage time than the #10 cans. As far as the question about storing in less than a perfect vacuum... Storage with oxy absorbers is THE BEST METHOD. Since it removes the oxy and leaves a nitrigen atmosphere wich for storage is better and stabilizes the food better than a vacuum alone. Not having a vauum will allow oxydiation. And this will only get worse with time since the mylar and plastic buckets are oxygen permeable and will eventually equalize oxygen levels with the outside. The great thing about the oxygen absorbers is that they KEEP WORKING. i.e. once they remove the oxygen from the container, they go dormant. Any additional oxygen that permeates in will still be converted by the oxy absorber as long as there is capacity left in the absorber. This is why overkilling the oxy absorber content is a good idea, at least by 25% or so. From the sorbent systems website... Note the part about permeability, and trust me, the plastic buckets are FAR FAR worse: PAKVF4PC PAKVF4PC is an ultra-high barrier foil laminated structure with high performance adhesives. The proprietary sealant layer is designed to withstand the effect of chemicals (essential oils and aggressive products that cause delamination in lesser structures.). The proprietary sealant layer is also designed with minimal additives and stabilizers to eliminate outgassing providing an inert contact layer for sensitive media. CONSTRUCTION: 60 ga. BON (Biaxally Oriented Nylon)/.5mil ALUMINUM FOIL/4.4 mil CAST POLYPROPYLENE PHYSICAL PROPERTIES: <table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="2" width="640"> <tbody><tr> <td> TOTAL THICKNESS: </td> <td> 6.0 mil </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top"> WATERVAPOR TRANSMISSION RATE (FED-01) </td> <td> 0.0003 gms./100sq.In./24 hrs. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top"> O<sub>2</sub> TRANSMISSION RATE (MOCON) This is a certified maximum transmission rate . No other inventoried structure has a .5 mil foil layer. </td> <td> 0.0006 cc/100sq.In./24 hrs. </td> </tr> <tr> <td>TENSILE STRENGTH (FTMS 191A-5102) </td> <td> 5323 psi </td> </tr> <tr> <td> TEAR (ASTM-689) </td> <td> MD 800 gms. XMD 1300 gms. </td> </tr> <tr> <td> SEAL STRENGTH (ASTM-D-882)475F;26psi;1sec </td> <td> 12 Lbs/In. </td> </tr> <tr> <td> PUNCTURE STRENGTH (FED TM2065) </td> <td> <25 LB. </td> </tr> <tr> <td> FOIL LAYER </td> <td> 0.0005 in </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

TechGuy | 01-02-2010 08:01 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? If you guys want to use mylar, by all means do so, it is a decent alternative to cans. I just don't trust it for VERY long term storage due to the oxy perm. ratings. We don't rotate our VERY long storage stuff much. We open some occasionally for testing purposes, we effectively have 2 different food storage strategies... VERY long term (20+ years) , and shorter term, 2-4 years. Really check your mylar to make sure it does what you think. There are many different ratings for this. Sorbent systems web site has a good writeup on this. Some mylar bags have several hundred times the oxy perm. of other bags. The bags I have in storage now are from the LDS cannery and are very thick, 7mm thicker than the sorbent.

TechGuy | 01-02-2010 08:07 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? PS> Someone sent me a note and it looks like the LDS order form no longer has the difference in shelf life stated.

nickelless | 01-03-2010 04:36 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaCannin (Post 2105855) Tonight, I was moving around the storage room. I had put some chocolate chips in a food saver plastic bag and sucked out the oxygen about 7 months ago. They got pushed to the back and I had forgot about them. They are no longer sucked down and have air in the bag. I had about 8 bags (2 cups each) and I thought it was just the one bag, but every bag was like that... Glad I did not do more stuff like that! They all will be going into jars. Oh and to top it off. I had a mouse too.... It found the chocolate chips and ate about 1/4 of one of the bags. He did not mess with any of the stuff I had in my glass jars. Cans and glass for me! Side note..... keep mouse traps along the walls in your storage room!
Were the bags freestanding, or did you have them inside buckets? If they weren't inside buckets, I don't think the mylar would be the problem.

TechGuy | 01-03-2010 04:45 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? We have had way too many food-saver failures. We really only use it any more to provide vacuum for the mason jar attachment.

StackerKen | 01-03-2010 05:10 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? we have been useing the foodsaver Brand bags... I just checked the box, It doesn't say how thick they are.... It does say they are thick...lol as long as the bag stays "sucked up" i figure it will keep the beans and sugar and stuff like that good for a few years anyway We use and rotate piratically everything in mylar sept the beans anyhow

TechGuy | 01-03-2010 05:39 PM
Re: Is it OK not to vacuum-seal beans? Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaCannin (Post 2106810) My chocolate chips were sucked up tight with a food saver, when I first did them. They are not now! I usually only use the food saver bags with stuff that is going in the freezer. Like Tech Guy, everything else goes in Mason jars or tin cans! My food saver just took a poop after only one year and I had to order one of those pro 2300 vacuums just so I can suck some jars! Tech Guy.... that would be a good invention for you, something just to suck air out of jars... I don't need the other bag stuff!
I tired a hand pump, wasn't real practical. I have thought about this: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=96677 http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/pho...6699/96677.gif Otherwise, a pump made from an old freezer compressor may do the job as well.

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