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wallew | 05-20-2006 12:08 AM
AK info Given some of the questions I've been seeing, I am going to list a couple of websites that you can do your own research on AK's as a class of weapons. First off, let me say that I own several AK's. I have also owned SKS's in the past. If you are not sure you want to shell out the extra $$'s for an AK, try an SKS first. Shoots the same round - 7.62x39 . As far as Optics for the AK, as far as I'm concerned there is ONLY one logical source for RUSSIAN optics on the AK. TANTAL AUTOMTICS. The guy is a bit slow in answering emails, so be patient. BUT his website is very informative regarding AK's in general and AK optics in specific. And he is the ONLY guy selling Russian Optics here in the US as a factory rep. http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/ If you wish to delve deeper into all things AK, go over to THE AK forum. http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=77 Hope this helps.

bl96S5eu | 05-20-2006 12:34 AM
Re: AK info Since you're the professional here what would you recommend for someone who doesn't want anything pretty but functional? Would be used on property for occasional 'wildlife control' and protection in the WTSHTF scenario(s). As with anything money is a factor so any good recommendation that save $$ would be great. Since I've never owned an AK what type of range do these things have...will start the research but input from someone that's owned 'em would be helpful. Also have seen there are a few different calibers available but am looking for longevity so does it matter and what are the pluses and minuses of each. Any other items to help out other GIMers new to AKs would be great. Thanks.

wallew | 05-20-2006 12:49 AM
Re: AK info An SKS is an excellent place to start. It fires 7.62x39 ammo that you load into a fixed magazine. If memory serves, it holds ten rounds. And can be loaded via a stripper clip that holds (wait for it) - TEN ROUNDS. You should be able to find a fairly servicable SKS for between $150 - $300 depending on where you live. You don't need any magazines, as it's a fixed mag. All you need is ammo. A LOT of the SKS's that used to come in the country had a folding bayonet attached. The Gun Ban law of 1992 caused LOTS of them to come in without the bayonet. Now that law has sunsetted, you CAN find them again. Guns America is but ONE PLACE to do research on prices... http://www.gunsamerica.com/search.cg...=SKS&state=All Russian, Yugo (slavian) and Chinese (Norinco) all made fine SKS weapons. They were eventually replaced in most arsenals with AK's. Hope that helps.

REV127 | 05-20-2006 11:11 AM
Re: AK info You can expect a minimum 200 yards effective range against a point target with the 7.62x39 AK. With a more accurate AK such as a Vepr and better quality ammo than the cheap Wolf stuff you could get 300 to 400 yards effective range against a point target. The 7.62x39 is an inerently accurate cartridge, if you fire it from a bolt action like a CZ-527 Carbine this becomes quickly apparent. There are three reasons for the AK's reputation for inaccuracy at longer ranges, two of which are avoidable. The first is poor quality ammunition, you can handload some very accurate rounds or search our higher quality stuff than the lowball Russian offerings. The second is a poorly put together rifle, stick to the higher quality AK's and you'll see improvement. Finally, the one you can't avoid, is the fact that the AK has a huge ammount of reciprocating mass tied up in its bolt and bolt carrier. This mass is a large part of what makes the AK so reliable, but it also will tend to make the rifle jump around a little more in recoil. By comparison the AR-15 does away with the gas piston entirely and has a dink bolt and bolt carrier which aids in accuracy. The SKS actually has a pretty decent reputation for accuracy, it is also a very reliable weapon. It is a little behind the curve compared to the AK in regards to handling, however. The ten round capacity kind of bums me out, but I've seen some people who could really rock their SKS with those stripper clips. It has its limitations, but it is a good weapon, especially at the price.

Prometheus | 05-20-2006 01:15 PM
Re: AK info The AK is going to do anything the average shooter wants it to do. I'm not a huge optics fan myself. I do have a couple of scoped G3's, but thats another story. My feelings on optics (if your vision is going, then obviously you need them): Red dots don't belong on any thing but pistol caliber carbines. Otherwise you are limiting and wasting a perfectly good rifle. Scopes only belong on a weapon that deserves one. , an AR or G3? Sure, why not... an AK or SKS? UNless your getting older and your vision ain't what it used to be why bother? I have yet to see an AK or SKS that wasn't able to have atleast stop sign groupings at 300 yards with iron sights. SKS is alittle better, but lets face it, your not buying eitehr one to be a tack driver. Why spend the extra cash on a high end AK (like a poly legend) why you could spend less and get better on a different platform.... unless you are a collector, but thats a different subject. If you are looking for an AK look at the romainian AK's. SAR's or wasr's... not very pretty but 100% functional. SKS 140 bucks like new SAR 350 new Is the 200 dollar difference worth it? Your damn right it is. I own an SKS, I bought it for 125 bucks out the door and like new. Why? I'm a collector and I wanted an extra backup for all the 7.62x39 I have floating around. Great gun and I like it, but it's no AK. Don't skimp on your survival, get an AK and a SKS as a backup.

wallew | 05-20-2006 10:34 PM
Re: AK info Actually, I've always called it 'minute of man'. IE, can you hit the torso of a person out to 200 yards? At 53, I can't hardly see past 200 yards. If I want to reach out and 'touch someone' out past that distance, my Rem 700 Heavy barrel in .308 comes out with the 3-9 scope. So, everything listed here is pretty dead on. I don't really see any problems with anything said above here.

Prometheus | 05-21-2006 02:36 AM
Re: AK info Quote:
Originally Posted by bl96S5eu Ok, let the newbie questions begin. If you've got some sites that cover this stuff just URL the answer instead and I don't mind doing the research myself. 1. What is the difference between a SAR 1, 2 & 3. Did some searching but the sites I've found don't seem to have a comparison.
SAR1 = AK47, 7.62x39 SAR2 = AK74, 5.45x39 SAR3 = AK in .223 (aka 5.56x45 or M16/AR15 round) Caliber and magazines are the only differences. Internals will be identical except the size to accomodate the different rounds. They are all from the same manufacture.

Barebull | 05-21-2006 03:27 AM
Re: AK info What do you guys think of a Samopal VZ-58? Looks like an AK.

wallew | 05-21-2006 12:36 PM
Re: AK info Quote:
Originally Posted by J in AZ I purchased my AK-47 from these guys: http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/prog...ew.asp?CatId=2 I received excellent service and a really nice rifle. I got the AK47 SSR 85 C2 by Armory USA / Global Trades.
That's where I got my pair of AMD 65's. I could NOT be happier with this particular company. The fit and finish are superb and I AM very critical as a gunsmith. I like hungarian 7.62x39 but it is now impossible to find. A guy over on gunsnet.net had one case he wanted for $300 for (it did include shipping) but I just couldn't do it. Instead I bought two cases of Wolf. I detest purchasing the russian ammo, but it is cheap...

Tn...Andy | 05-25-2006 07:22 PM
Re: AK info Went looking at AK's locally today. What I found were: One dealer had several Egyptian models with the 'thumbhole' wood stock.....wasn't too crazy about them. Another had several.....a China pre-ban, and another post ban. Also had a Romainian with a folding stock, and a Bulgarian with a milled lower reciever. That last one I liked the best of any of them.....something about that stamped reciever I just can't quite come to grips with.... Disregarding prices, which of these would you AK boys recommend ?

wallew | 05-25-2006 09:02 PM
Re: AK info Strangely enough, I would suggest any of the stamped receivers over the milled ones. I too thought the opposite. Until I had a very long conversation with a buddy of mine who carried an AK for more than twelve months. Field testing shows that the tolerances on the milled receivers are tighter than the stamped receivers. What that means is you MUST keep any milled receiver AK much cleaner than a stamped one. A stamped one can have sand thrown in the receiver. Drop the mag, shake out any loose sand and pop the mag back in and you are in business. NOT SO with the milled receivers. No real negatives with ANY of the models you listed. Yes while I do agree that the milled receiver might last longer, it will have more problems in a field environment. Past that, they are all a great choice. Remember, you gotta be able to get ammo also. Which these days has not only gone up in price, but is sporadic in delivery from Russia. I personally expect that one day what ever president is in control will STOP the importation of foreign ammo. Don't forget spare parts. Don't forget magazines. Don't forget ammo. My personal rule of thumb is for every semi auto weapon I own, I store at least one thousand rounds as a bare minimum. Two thousand is better.

GREENSILVERHORN | 05-25-2006 09:08 PM
Re: AK info Milled is better where it counts. Getting the bullet to chamber. They may have problems when over used or dirty, but nothing amounted to the problems you could have with stamped. Usually easily remedied with a manual stroke. Stamped will get you broke without recourse, but a trip to the bench.

Tn...Andy | 05-25-2006 09:26 PM
Re: AK info Yeah.....I had considered the dirt factor in the milled vs stamped issue. Friend of mine is a big AK fan, and his claim is you can shoot all week, never clean, drag it thru the creek and it will still function. Got an SKS I bought about 10 years ago simply because it was dirt cheap.....and bought a 1200rd case of Norico to go with it...then added a few hundred more rounds.....so I've got maybe 1500rds of 7.62x39 sitting around....that seems like plenty to me, since I'm really an AR fan, and got a boatload of that ammo. I guess I'll pick up that Romanian stamped reciever model.....it was just a shade over 300......and for something I'm probably not gonna use that much, that will do.

Prometheus | 05-25-2006 09:30 PM
Re: AK info IMO milled isn't worth the added cost and weight. If I was going to have a hunker down in place and not move around AK then milled would be fine... but all those steel mags are heavy enough without adding to the weight of the weapon. I'm not sure I'd think the milled would perform worse when dirty. They are AK's... I'd just as soon say it's "self cleaning" :laugh: --Inside joke, but damn near the truth ;) Get whichever one you like better, they'll all treat you awesome. FWIW, most of those butt-hole stocks can be replaced with pistol grips and it might be cheaper to buy a butt-hole and replace the stock and grip.... of course you might have to put in US parts to make it 922r compliant with being a "US made weapon", but thats another issue.... not near as difficult as it sounds and very easy.

melbo | 05-25-2006 10:01 PM
Re: AK info Not really an AK guy myself either. I have 1 milled. It's an Arsenal. Pretty nice I built 2 from Romanian kits a year or so ago. Century Receivers IIRC. Have 2 Polish Underfolder kits in the shop. Never issued and the Tritium is still glowing. Thinking of a screw build on those. Just need a couple more receivers. This is a pretty cool AK animation: http://www.winslowarmory.com/

bl96S5eu | 05-25-2006 10:01 PM
Re: AK info After looking around on their site this seems right up my alley. http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/prog...asp?Prodid=234

REV127 | 05-25-2006 11:17 PM
Re: AK info There is no practical difference between performance of the milled vs stamped AK when dirty. We're not talking about a marginal gas system and general action such as is found in the AR family. The milled AK will tend to have tighter tolerances and a stiffer frame so they'll tend to be a bit more accurate than stamped AK's. Except the Vepr which is built on the much heavier stamped RPK reciever, the Vepr is generally considered to be the most accurate AK you can buy. Stamped AK's are generally the least accurate, and milled take up the middle ground in weight and accuracy. If you are worried about carrying weight with the AK platform opt for the Bulgarian waffles magazines, they weigh considerably less than the steel magazines, by about half a pound. The VZ-58 is unrelated to the AK in any meaningful way beyond appearance. They have a mixed bag reputation but are semi popular in Canada as they are easier to own than an AK for some reason... but the Canadians can buy steelcore by the case when it comes in, they got a lot of Czech steelcore 7.62x39 a year or two ago. I was envious. Out of the available offerings at the store I'd grab the milled or Chinese preban if it was in good condition. Chinese stamped rifles have a reciever 50% thicker than most European stamped AK's, and the Chinese stamped AK is built on an actual AK-47 pattern rather than an AKM. If the Egyptian AK is a Steyer import, those are said to be of high quality and are desirable. Non-Steyer's are hit and miss to ugly according to reputation.

hoarder | 05-26-2006 07:38 AM
Re: AK info Quote:
Originally Posted by REV127 . If you are worried about carrying weight with the AK platform opt for the Bulgarian waffles magazines, they weigh considerably less than the steel magazines, by about half a pound.
What do they look like? Where do you get them? Quote:
... but the Canadians can buy steelcore by the case when it comes in, they got a lot of Czech steelcore 7.62x39 a year or two ago. I was envious.
I remember steel core ammo being common in that caliber 15 years ago. is it illegal in the US now?

REV127 | 05-26-2006 10:36 AM
Re: AK info Here's a Bulgarian waffle at a decent price. http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.ph...5&cat=0&page=1 Oddly I used to buy them for $10/mag before the AWB sunset. Inflation? Who knows. Anyway, they make a considerable difference when you're talking about a full combat load of 6 to 8 magazines, we're talking 3 or 4 whole pounds here. Promag makes a magazine that looks almost identical to the Bulgarian waffles externally but there are a few important differences. The first runs of Promag waffles had short magazine springs and spotty reliability, some people are saying the newer ones are better. The Promag's also lack the steel skeleton that Bulgarian waffles have so they won't be as durable. The Promags also cost a little more, the only reason I can see buying them is just for the fact that they come in a wider range of colors. I'll probably pick a few up at the gun show this weekend to try out and see if they've shaken the bugs out yet. As far as 7.62x39 steelcore goes, they decided 7.62x39 was a pistol cartridge and the steel core made it armor piercing. Wrong on both counts, of course. You can still own it, you can still buy and shoot it, you just can't import it or make any more of it. I have heard BATF stands for "bastards against terrific firearms" and rulings like this cause me to agree. Honestly the steelcore stuff isn't true AP and while you'll get a little better penetration against hard materials it doesn't really make that big of a difference. The ironic thing is that steelcore, much of it the original M43 cartridge which was not known for having too impressive of a wounding effect, was by law replaced by modified leadcore bullets that actually have significantly more lethality against soft targets and nearly the same penetration against hard targets. An example would be the 8m "effect" series or the M43 enhanced 122gr Wolf or Golden Tiger bullet which features a cavernous air space in the tip which causes rapid yawing similar if not superior to the Yugo M67 cartridge. So they called steelcore AP and banned it, no real effect, and created a market that produced enhanced lethality ammunition, real effect. Once again showing how arbitrary and outright stupid gun laws are.

hoarder | 05-26-2006 10:54 AM
Re: AK info Thanks, REV127. I prefer 20 round mags, but I think I'll pick some of those up at the next gun show I go to. There is a 1800 table gun show in Dallas on June 10-11. http://mem.tcon.net/users/5010/5491/gunfax/tx/index.htm

southfork | 06-03-2006 01:27 PM
Re: AK info Ok, just happend to pick up an ak at last gun show, was not aware of the milled vs stamped thing or how do I tell which is which?

negative1 | 06-04-2006 01:38 AM
Re: AK info southfork, The AK in post 8 of this thread is stamped. Here is a milled AK... http://moobak.com/users/images/mak.JPG http://moobak.com/users/images/mak2.JPG -1

Libertarian_Guard | 06-04-2006 11:56 PM
Re: AK info Quote:
Originally Posted by Tn...Andy Yeah.....I had considered the dirt factor in the milled vs stamped issue. Friend of mine is a big AK fan, and his claim is you can shoot all week, never clean, drag it thru the creek and it will still function. Got an SKS I bought about 10 years ago simply because it was dirt cheap.....and bought a 1200rd case of Norico to go with it...then added a few hundred more rounds.....so I've got maybe 1500rds of 7.62x39 sitting around....that seems like plenty to me, since I'm really an AR fan, and got a boatload of that ammo. I guess I'll pick up that Romanian stamped reciever model.....it was just a shade over 300......and for something I'm probably not gonna use that much, that will do.
Best info on Romanian WASR's http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/model.htm

wallew | 06-05-2006 12:57 PM
Re: AK info LG, An excellent suggestion of the gunsnet forum.

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