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- - What about a shield??? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=215967)

drewfu | 12-26-2007 12:36 PM
What about a shield??? Let's say everything goes to heck and we're all running around fighting for limited resources and shooting at each other with our stockpiled ammo. Would a shield come in handy in a firefight? I'm thinking of a piece of aluminum or titanium large enough to cover a large portion of the body and 1/4"-1/2" thick, whatever would be needed to stop rounds up to a a very high caliber, far more than body armor. Could this be helpful at all or would it just break your arm? Opinions? Thoughts?

Kahlil Gibran | 12-26-2007 12:48 PM
Re: What about a shield??? Nah. Got all the basic stuff already? :dontknow: beans, bullets, and band-aids etc.

drewfu | 12-26-2007 01:32 PM
Re: What about a shield??? Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijah (Post 890365) What about TP, stock pile that and hide behind it?:haha: While I've never had a reason to test it, I think it might slow up or stop most bullets that would penetrate the walls of most homes.:signs8:
The whole point of the shield it to PROTECT the toilet paper!

GoldWampum | 12-26-2007 01:58 PM
Re: What about a shield??? Quote:
Originally Posted by drewfu (Post 890372) The whole point of the shield it to PROTECT the toilet paper!
Now you're making sense. Fall back to the TP, every man for himself. :shocked_ma:

NOOB | 12-26-2007 02:38 PM
Re: What about a shield??? I think crossbows put the shield and armor salesman out of business. I think it would be entertaining for you to make one then post pics of you modeling it though. NOOB

Infidel | 12-26-2007 02:58 PM
Re: What about a shield??? Crossbows? Hahahahaha. just check this out. This monitor resists crossbow bolts Asus monitors: your best defense against crossbow attacks (I know it is in Russian. Just look at the video. Your monitor can't do that) http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/25/a...ssbow-attacks/ <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AAdku9YhSCI&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AAdku9YhSCI&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Horn | 12-26-2007 03:23 PM
Re: What about a shield??? Quote:
Originally Posted by Infidel (Post 890451) Crossbows? Hahahahaha. just check this out. This monitor resists crossbow bolts Asus monitors: your best defense against crossbow attacks (I know it is in Russian. Just look at the video. Your monitor can't do that) http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/25/a...ssbow-attacks/ <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AAdku9YhSCI&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AAdku9YhSCI&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
Yeah, I think there was something about that military going with kevlar body armour. One hit and your still going to need recovery time, depending on where it lands, maybe lots of it. Smart piggies always build their home out of reinforced concrete.

Infidel | 12-26-2007 03:25 PM
Re: What about a shield??? Quote:
Originally Posted by AuAgHorn (Post 890472) Yeah, I think there was something about that military going with kevlar body armour. One hit and your still going to need recovery time, depending on where it lands, maybe lots of it.
Better alive and "need recovery time" than dead.

Horn | 12-26-2007 03:28 PM
Re: What about a shield??? Quote:
Originally Posted by Infidel (Post 890474) Better alive and "need recovery time" than dead.
For sure... Safety is always in the numbers.

GoldWampum | 12-26-2007 03:40 PM
Re: What about a shield??? Quote:
Originally Posted by Infidel (Post 890451) Crossbows? Hahahahaha. just check this out. This monitor resists crossbow bolts Asus monitors: your best defense against crossbow attacks (I know it is in Russian. Just look at the video. Your monitor can't do that) http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/25/a...ssbow-attacks/ <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AAdku9YhSCI&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AAdku9YhSCI&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
Nice feature is that you can change the moniker on your shield with a key or mouse stroke. Helps when infiltrating.

shades2 | 12-30-2007 12:07 AM
Re: What about a shield??? That's a child sized crossbow... A real hunting crossbow firing a bolt would go through the monitor and the wall/s behind it. Beware what you believe, coming out of Mother Russia. :)

Baphomet Jones | 12-30-2007 02:59 AM
Re: What about a shield??? I was thinking about welding some sort of forearm shield up, my only concern would be the weight, since aluminum is a definite no-go, won't stop anything, and titanium is prohibitively expensive for most people. Steel would work fine for most bullets, some types of steel are better than others at stopping bullets, too.

shades2 | 12-30-2007 09:21 AM
Re: What about a shield??? Quote:
Originally Posted by Baphomet Jones (Post 894428) I was thinking about welding some sort of forearm shield up, my only concern would be the weight, since aluminum is a definite no-go, won't stop anything, and titanium is prohibitively expensive for most people. Steel would work fine for most bullets, some types of steel are better than others at stopping bullets, too.
Well, if I had to entertain this idea of a shield... Get a forged block of steel like a rectangular piece, say the size of a brick. Make sure the grain of the forging is going across the piece lengthways. Here's the difficult bit.. get a tool like a diamond saw to (slowly) cut it lengthways into relatively thin layers, say 3mm layers, not sure what that is in inches. Lay out the pieces so you have some going vertically and some horizontally across the shield backplate forming multiple polarised type layers which gives the shield overall strength. Do as many layers as you want, taking into account the shield has to be carried with one hand. Once you have the layout, paint the steel pieces matt black. In between, and behind, these layers put layers of multiple layer black kevlar. Slowly, drill holes through (with a very tough drillbit, possibly tungsten). Pop rivet the metal pieces together with the kevlar sandwiched in between. The reason I say drill and cut slowly is you don't want to apply high heat to the metal as this will temper the steel and possibly weaken it by making it brittle. The supporting piece of plywood or whatever, behind, should have a layer of trauma shield, being just a layer of black foam, with a thick bit of foam for an arm, an arm loop and grip, and a cut-out on the preferred side for you to poke the sidearm through. Now, the tricky bit is making the shield useful, but not so incredibly heavy that you can't carry it around for any length of time, so this is going to affect the thickness of the layers, and the number of layers. Forged aluminium is another option, but it's not going to absorb impact like steel. This would probably stop pistol rounds and stuff like birdshot from a shotgun. It is not likely to stop a high-powered rifle.

Baphomet Jones | 12-30-2007 12:15 PM
Re: What about a shield??? Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 894530) Well, if I had to entertain this idea of a shield... Get a forged block of steel like a rectangular piece, say the size of a brick. Make sure the grain of the forging is going across the piece lengthways. Here's the difficult bit.. get a tool like a diamond saw to (slowly) cut it lengthways into relatively thin layers, say 3mm layers, not sure what that is in inches. Lay out the pieces so you have some going vertically and some horizontally across the shield backplate forming multiple polarised type layers which gives the shield overall strength. Do as many layers as you want, taking into account the shield has to be carried with one hand. Once you have the layout, paint the steel pieces matt black. In between, and behind, these layers put layers of multiple layer black kevlar. Slowly, drill holes through (with a very tough drillbit, possibly tungsten). Pop rivet the metal pieces together with the kevlar sandwiched in between. The reason I say drill and cut slowly is you don't want to apply high heat to the metal as this will temper the steel and possibly weaken it by making it brittle. The supporting piece of plywood or whatever, behind, should have a layer of trauma shield, being just a layer of black foam, with a thick bit of foam for an arm, an arm loop and grip, and a cut-out on the preferred side for you to poke the sidearm through. Now, the tricky bit is making the shield useful, but not so incredibly heavy that you can't carry it around for any length of time, so this is going to affect the thickness of the layers, and the number of layers. Forged aluminium is another option, but it's not going to absorb impact like steel. This would probably stop pistol rounds and stuff like birdshot from a shotgun. It is not likely to stop a high-powered rifle.
The last place I worked at, we had a 160 ton hydraulic ironworker, which has a punch on one side for punching squares and circles into steel, there was a rule of thumb involving the diameter of the punch and the thickness of the steel, I can't quite remember what it was but it was something like, never punch a hole smaller in diameter than the thickness of your material. If you punch a 1/8" hole in 3/8" steel, the punch is probably going to shatter. Now the tooling is hardened tool steel, so thats pretty brittle, but I think that applies well to incomnig fire. If they're using .223, use .3/8" steel plate to ensure the steel is thicker than the diameter of the bullet. Now we're talking copper and lead, so 3/8" could very well be overkill, good quarter inch thick steel would do fine against .223 soft point ammo. FMJ is pointy, and can slice holes through steel easier. REV has made some excellent posts regarding armor, he's found that the heat/abrasion resistant properties of the steel contribute to it's durability under fire. It makes sense, as the slugs that were popping out the bottom of the steel we were punching holes in at work were VERY HOT. If you just get a gigantic 2.5' x 5' quarter inch plate of really good abrasian resistant heat treated steel, you'll be fine. Diamond blades are expensive, carbide will cut fine. I'm not sure if you'd want to mess around with laying strips in a pollarized patter, as this would make things more complicated and may not provide the immediately thickness you need to ensure that bullets can't get in at all. A single plate should work, and you could add a curve to the steel if you read up about it without destroying it's properties. Drewfu, if you'd like me to whip something up for ya and you're willing to pay for material upfront, I could make something for you. Not right now though, I haven't got access to the right tools and it would come out looking quite home brewed :tongue_ma:

____hoot____ | 12-30-2007 01:09 PM
Re: What about a shield??? Shades of "Ned Kelly". Was a great Mick Jagar flic about the infamous australian outlaw[freedom fighter???] who's gang went down in the final gunfight in homemade steel shields and armor. Worked pretty good against black powder weapons till the law figured out to shoot at their feet. Think that Mick only did two flics back in the late 60s early 70s and they were both great. Think the other one was called "Performance"; about how to "fag" your way into women's pants; sly devil!.

qatarman1969 | 12-30-2007 01:24 PM
Re: What about a shield??? Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 894530) Now, the tricky bit is making the shield useful, but not so incredibly heavy that you can't carry it around for any length of time, so this is going to affect the thickness of the layers, and the number of layers. Forged aluminium is another option, but it's not going to absorb impact like steel.
Isn't that what the kevlar is for? I would think that you really just need the metal to provide regidity so the kevlar holds its "shield" shape. Go with aluminum & let the kevlar stop the bullets. Why not just buy kevlar body armor instead of trying to make a shield. Or make a very simple shield of aluminum to guard against thrown bricks & such, but rely on kevlar body armor for bullets.

REV127 | 12-30-2007 01:50 PM
Re: What about a shield??? Kevlar is not really such a great performer against rifle hits though if it is thick enough an is shaped with a deflective surface it can provide some protection. No need for metal backing to hold shape, kevlar can be molded with a resin just like fiberglass. Kevlar or Micarta BRASS can be formed into a lightweight and manueverable shield that will at least act as an impediment against rifle bullets and have a very good chance at stopping pistol rounds or fragmentation completely. At least until such time as the kevlar has been too torn up. Multi-hit performance of ballistic fabrics isn't so great. Your body is the last place you want to try to stop a bullet. You get once chance at it and you're going to at least take some blunt trauma in the process. Body armor also has to be much heavier than a shield to provide the same protection, it is a matter of surface area. The way a human body is shaped and moves in combat requires a full body wrap to really cover everything. A shield can be considerably lighter for equivalent coverage. Think about it, when you turn your right side toward your enemy all the armor on your left side is now pointless. At any rate some kind of adarga or buckler sized shield could be useful with the right shape and tactics. The gunshield concept is very, very promising and does a lot to solve one of the most unpleasant realities about gunfighting... you can't shoot the badguy unless you expose your head so you can see him. The Russian Spetsnaz are already running a helmet called the maska that features a steel face plate. I don't know why Western personal armor systems remain so primitive and poorly thought out. At the very least armor should be designed to intercept and redirect incoming attacks in a fight, not protect a manequin set up on a shooting range. In times long past that were about equivalent to today in that they had materials that could effectively protect a soldiers from most personal weapons they developed the concept of the shield man. This has kinda sort made a comeback in some SWAT tactics, albeit in a retarded way with retarded equipment. As time wears on armies concerned with fighting in urban terrain will probably better develop the idea and field shield bearers at the rate of one or two per squad whose sole duty is to shield his team during movements. Spacing two layers of a ballistic material has shown a lot of promise in my tests in providing good protection for lesser weight. The problem is that thinner sections get eaten up a lot faster than thicker sections even against the same threat. Traditionally shields were consumable items that were expected to be replaced frequently, sometimes more than once during a battle.

Alric | 12-30-2007 03:32 PM
Re: What about a shield??? Its because a lot of effort is going into making the super hightech armor, that is supposed to be the greatest thing ever. Atleast thats what I always hear the army talking about and stuff. For years and years, they been talking about the suits thats are all computerized and stuff, and like smart weapons. See the bad guy from like a mile away, bullets hit you and the armor automatically turns on and totally stops the bullet. The problem is that they never actually put them into action. I have a feeling its because they are horribly overpriced.

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