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Twisted Avatar | 09-21-2009 01:43 PM
Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? I have been reading your blog for quite some time now and I have a different outlook that I would like for you to comment on if you would be so kind. I have seen multiple references to pre-1965 coins being good for barter in a post-SHTF environment, but I do not follow this reasoning. I live in Dallas Texas, and frequently converse with other like minded people about survival preparation and the world climate and, until I told them about the high melt value of pre-1965 coins, they had no idea it was greater than the face value. It should not have struck me as odd as I myself had no idea of this before I began reading your blog. These are well informed people, so it made me wonder how common this knowledge was. I began asking various people about this, and not one person had any idea that these coins had a higher silver value than their face value. Here is my perspective on this subject. In a post SHTF environment some people will have prepared and some won't. However, regardless of this, when it comes time to trade with others the universal doctrines will apply. 1. You will have to have something that I want for me to trade you what you want. 2. A think worth what someone is willing to pay for it, not it's asking price. Now, if the vast majority of people have no idea that pre-1965 coins are almost the same as silver, most of them will likely have no desire for them at all, or worse, think that you are trying to scam them by pushing a trade with a currency which is likely defunct. Further, due to the probable lack of access to information, it is unlikely that people would be able to research the claim that these coins are worth more than their face value. Thereby keeping the populace at large ignorant of their true commodity value, and keeping the coins out of the trading markets. I believe that the only scenario in which pre-1965 coins could come to be regarded as a barter good would be if people that already knew of their value agreed to take them in as trade for something that the ignorant populace already believed had value, such as ammunition or food. Again, however, there is a very small percentage of the populace that has knowledge of the melt value of pre-1965 coins, much less has a stockpile of them to use after the SHTF. Therefore, I believe it to be unlikely that there would be enough people, in enough varied locations, willing to make a sufficient number of trades of their items for coins for the trend of pre-1965 coinage as a barter good to become ubiquitous in the "villages" or "trading posts". Due to these perspectives, I find it to be unlike that the new "villages" or "trading posts", that spring up out of the ashes of our previous society, will use pre-1965 coins as even an uncommon trading good. Most of the idea behind amassing coins for preparedness I believe to be tied to the value of silver, and the above illustrations assume that silver will be valued after the crash. However, after the crash I do not find it likely that silver will have any value at all for the the majority of the people. Very few people will be so well -prepared that they will have enough that they can concern themselves with amassing hard wealth for when society returns. I am certain that the majority will be trying to just survive as best they can. While there will be a Rolex or a diamond ring traded for a few tins of tuna, this will likely be an uncommon occurrence as society continues to devolve. Few people will have so much that they can trade away usable resources for hard value items in mass. While people may have the memory that silver used to be valuable, after having spent some time circling the drain with the rest of society, it is unlikely that they will have found a use for it since it can neither be used to defend nor feed one's self. It is more likely that a wealthy man will be one that has enough food, warmth, defense, and shelter to survive indefinitely. That only leave silver coins as an easily identifiable currency. So, let us suppose that there are places that have almost gotten back to some sense of civilizations, such as the "villages" or "trading posts". As such they will likely want to use some form of currency. However, as we look to the past to inform the future, it is more likely that each community, or group of communities, will develop their own individual currencies in an effort to avoid counterfeiting and theft. Historically, in the absence of a centralized government, individual communities do what they feel they must to survive and to insure that they function as smoothly as possible. This is likely to focus more on food and defence, items that provide life stability, than it is on amassing hard value items. In order for silver coins to have a value a person needs to want them from you more than they want to keep what you want from them. I can not see any functionally use for silver after the crash. I know that there are a great many very intelligent people that firmly believe that these coins will have a high value post SHTF, so I feel like I must be missing something. I would be most appreciative if you would share your views on the reasoning that I have outlined. I am very hesitant to invest in pre-1965 coins as a future barter good until I am convinced that it is a better investment than just using the same money to buy more food, guns, or ammunition. The ideal of having a compact, universal, and non-degrading barter good available when the time comes is very appealing, I'm just not sure that it is silver coins. - Russell from Dallas JWR Replies: I stand by my prediction that in the event of a currency collapse, pre-1965 junk silver will very quickly become adopted as a de facto barter currency. Many people may not presently be familiar with these coins, but once the US Dollar's value disintegrates, people will wise up to what constitutes real money, very rapidly. Adaptability is in the nature of free markets. It won't take more than a couple of months for prices to stabilize in the new reality of silver coins, packs of cigarettes, boxes of .22 cartridges, and gallons of gasoline--in barter. I predict that within a month, the sound of ringing silver coins will become familiar--starting first at "mom and pop" stores and at farmer's markets. These coins will be eagerly sought in barter, because they encapsulate all of the key attributes of a genuine tangible currency: recognizability, scarcity, durability, portability, fungibility, and divisibility. Being 90% silver, they also have useful industrial value. No barter currency is perfect, but pre-1965 coins come very close, at least for use here in the United States. http://www.survivalblog.com/

TheNocturnalEgyptian | 09-21-2009 01:52 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? See, I'm on the other side of the fence. It just doesn't seem reasonable to me to believe that these same people (Who don't remember pre-65) are going to have boatloads of tangibles for trade, anyway. Who is it that has the sig, "You can't do business, with people that don't have any money." If they haven't prepared it won't be worth trading with them. I, on the other-hand, have lots of supplies, and I DO accept junk silver. Lighter, flash-light, pack of cards? Oh, a big spender - going for the sourdough starter, are ya? Good choice.

Real Money Now | 09-21-2009 02:06 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Junk (90%) will be accepted FOR FACE VALUE. Delusions to the contrary assume "average" Americans are smarter than they are.

Victor | 09-21-2009 02:16 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Why not. It's already accepted for barter pre-collapse in certain circles.

Fudup | 09-21-2009 02:27 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? All in all a very good question. The doubts that are stated above are the reason why I don't have a bunch of 90% silver coins, just "some" in case they are needed for barter in a EOWAWKI catastrophe scenario.

Plastic | 09-21-2009 02:29 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? In a currency collapse of course silver will have value, even great value. But in a mad max situation our gold and silver will be useless. Oh you want a dozen eggs? That will be 3 rolls of toilet paper please, you need to eat and I need to wipe so lets make a deal... And no you cannot have any of my ammo.

madfranks | 09-21-2009 02:29 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Somehow the peasants in Zimbabwe figured out that precious metals were their ticket to buy food after their paper collapsed. If they can do it, starving Americans will figure it out. And to reiterate a point made here before, preps are for the collapse, PMs are to preserve your wealth to help rebuild AFTER the collapse. During S hitting TF, likely most people will be focused on surviving and getting through the collapse. After the collapse when people attempt to create communities again, then your silver/gold coins will be worth having.

Twisted Avatar | 09-21-2009 02:39 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Quote:
Originally Posted by madfranks (Post 1932533) Somehow the peasants in Zimbabwe figured out that precious metals were their ticket to buy food after their paper collapsed. If they can do it, starving Americans will figure it out. And to reiterate a point made here before, preps are for the collapse, PMs are to preserve your wealth to help rebuild AFTER the collapse. During S hitting TF, likely most people will be focused on surviving and getting through the collapse. After the collapse when people attempt to create communities again, then your silver/gold coins will be worth having.
You Tube
You Tube

TechGuy | 09-21-2009 03:15 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Short of war, I am having a hard time believing a true SHTF situation will happen. More of a very slow plunge into the abyss. And I agree about the people not recognizing 90% for what it really is. I stock silver that SAYS 1 oz pure silver .999

gunDriller | 09-21-2009 03:27 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Quote:
Originally Posted by madfranks (Post 1932533) Somehow the peasants in Zimbabwe figured out that precious metals were their ticket to buy food after their paper collapsed. If they can do it, starving Americans will figure it out. And to reiterate a point made here before, preps are for the collapse, PMs are to preserve your wealth to help rebuild AFTER the collapse. During S hitting TF, likely most people will be focused on surviving and getting through the collapse. After the collapse when people attempt to create communities again, then your silver/gold coins will be worth having.
plus it's partially a public education issue. i don't watch television but i haven't heard anybody else talking about a documentary on using 90% silver for barter. i agree, there is sort of an un-checked assumption aspect, regarding the value of 90% silver as barter. if you pay 10x face for some 90% silver, you think of it as being worth about that - or more. i tried looking to see if anybody had made a Youtube of a farmer's market silver barter transaction. nothing yet ! http://www.youtube.com/results?hl=en...-8&sa=N&tab=w1

Canadian-guerilla | 09-21-2009 03:29 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Quote:
Originally Posted by TechGuy And I agree about the people not recognizing 90% for what it really is. I stock silver that SAYS 1 oz pure silver 99.99
+ .999 awhile back i made a decision to change all my SILVER to 10oz and 1oz everything says .999 PURE SILVER to make it easy for the sheeple when it comes time to trade/barter and i have 2 rolls of Canadian SILVER quarters for really small trades

jaybone | 09-21-2009 04:32 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? The few that do realize the value will eventually take advantage of the many that do not by starting a service to turn your "useless" silver coins into tasty food. a la cash 4 gold they will then sell them to the local warlord, who will turn them over to our chinese and indian friends.

lhslancers | 09-21-2009 05:38 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? I wouldn't worry about holding 90% junk Silver.

Dude | 09-21-2009 05:55 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? From a counterfeit perspective if barter becomes the norm, I'd rather accept an ounce of silver in the form of '64 rosies than a Christmas bar stamped out by some company I never heard of.

Tallships | 09-21-2009 05:57 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? As said earlier: The people who have the goods you want will know the value of the coins. The people who do not know the value of the coins will have nothing worth trading for anyway.

Publico, Pro Se | 09-21-2009 06:17 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Quote:
Originally Posted by madfranks (Post 1932533) Somehow the peasants in Zimbabwe figured out that precious metals were their ticket to buy food after their paper collapsed. If they can do it, starving Americans will figure it out.
That's after 25% die off for being to stupid to survive. Quote:
And to reiterate a point made here before, preps are for the collapse, PMs are to preserve your wealth to help rebuild AFTER the collapse. During S hitting TF, likely most people will be focused on surviving and getting through the collapse. After the collapse when people attempt to create communities again, then your silver/gold coins will be worth having.
Exactly. In a true SHTF/EOTWAWKI series of events there will be phases where one type or group of items will serve as a medium of exchange before being replaced by another item (or items). How, and the order of what will be used as money is dependent upon the order of events. I can see canning supplies, booze, smokes, seeds, silver coins, etc. being bartered as money while a government still exists. And the same items being useful after the whirlwind of crap hits the fan. I think the key is having a little of as much of everything as possible and having a lot of stuff you specialize in. (Such as a non-drinker/smoker who is a blacksmith having a couple bottles or cases of booze or smokes for emergency trade/barter while having fully stocked shop with a couple of tons of pig iron on hand would useful to him.)

Plastic | 09-21-2009 06:50 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosepublico (Post 1932970) I can see canning supplies, booze, smokes, seeds, silver coins, etc. being bartered as money while a government still exists.
I'll bet that gardening seeds will become worth their weight or more in gold if/when the gov't dies, at least at first. After people have grown/harvested their mon-satan-o sterile seeds and discover that they do not come up again the next year with not much hope of getting more....... Imagine how much a zucchini or a butternut squash will be worth in trade. Make sure to sell them in halves, seeds removed of course to maintain the monopoly. :9536:

Twisted Avatar | 09-21-2009 07:02 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Quote:
Originally Posted by Plastic (Post 1933025) I'll bet that gardening seeds will become worth their weight or more in gold if/when the gov't dies, at least at first. After people have grown/harvested their mon-satan-o sterile seeds and discover that they do not come up again the next year with not much hope of getting more....... Imagine how much a zucchini or a butternut squash will be worth in trade. Make sure to sell them in halves, seeds removed of course to maintain the monopoly. :9536:
Quoted for truth. I dont have a green thumb to save my life But I do have four 50 cal. ammo fat cans full of heirloom seeds for the person that does know how to plant. T

Twisted Avatar | 09-21-2009 07:04 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallships (Post 1932938) As said earlier: The people who have the goods you want will know the value of the coins. The people who do not know the value of the coins will have nothing worth trading for anyway.
Agreed Resourceful people ALWAYS find each other. T

Agrippa | 09-21-2009 07:10 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Quote:
Originally Posted by TechGuy (Post 1932625) I stock silver that SAYS 1 oz pure silver .999
For trading with the ignorant I stock nickel rounds that say "1 oz pure silver". I reserve the 90% junk silver for those in the know....

Publico, Pro Se | 09-21-2009 07:11 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Quote:
Originally Posted by Plastic (Post 1933025) I'll bet that gardening seeds will become worth their weight or more in gold if/when the gov't dies, at least at first. After people have grown/harvested their mon-satan-o sterile seeds and discover that they do not come up again the next year with not much hope of getting more....... Imagine how much a zucchini or a butternut squash will be worth in trade. Make sure to sell them in halves, seeds removed of course to maintain the monopoly. :9536:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1933045) Quoted for truth. I dont have a green thumb to save my life But I do have four 50 cal. ammo fat cans full of heirloom seeds for the person that does know how to plant. T
And that's why I have a 4 gallon tub full seed packets of all different favors and varieties with another tub sitting next to it waiting for it's share.

Tallships | 09-21-2009 07:16 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? http://www.silverbearcafe.com/privat...omplacency.jpg

berkscoin | 09-21-2009 07:24 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Twisted Avatar makes an excellent point. There will be many people out there with some goods I want, but they may not be interested in my silver bars. I have been salting away a good bit of ammo, and some long storage freeze dried foods, but not thousands of dollars worth. He got me thinking. I need more toilet paper, cigarettes, bottles of whiskey, canned beans. Lots of people will want that instead of silver bars, thus more opportunities to barter.

Plastic | 09-21-2009 07:41 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Quote:
Originally Posted by berkscoin (Post 1933079) Twisted Avatar makes an excellent point. There will be many people out there with some goods I want, but they may not be interested in my silver bars. I have been salting away a good bit of ammo, and some long storage freeze dried foods, but not thousands of dollars worth. He got me thinking. I need more toilet paper, cigarettes, bottles of whiskey, canned beans. Lots of people will want that instead of silver bars, thus more opportunities to barter.
I know it rubs alot of folks raw, but I try to go by the bible when prepping. It says people will throw their gold and silver into the streets because it will not fill their stomaches and that is all I need to know. But for us gold/silver bugs there is a bright side, it also mentions that those of us who survive will have plenty of gold and silver available because the sea of people is dried up (90% dead). It seems people will go back to bits of shiny metal when they finally have had enough of paper lies. But for right now you had best stock food, the means of producing food and "tools" to protect your food before all things. I can't even begin to count the number of seeds I have gathered out of my garden this year, suffice to say it is many quart mason jars full. Everything from tomato to zucchini and from cucumbers to mellons. My only regret.... I love fried zucchini and pumpkin seeds more than anything else from the garden. EDIT: If you are a decent gardener, you should have no trouble trading for things you will need as most people around you will be starving during/after the crash.

King_Squais | 09-21-2009 07:49 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallships (Post 1932938) As said earlier: The people who have the goods you want will know the value of the coins. The people who do not know the value of the coins will have nothing worth trading for anyway.
What he said.

Bx3 | 09-21-2009 07:57 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Money Now (Post 1932501) Junk (90%) will be accepted FOR FACE VALUE. Delusions to the contrary assume "average" Americans are smarter than they are.
Thats a good point and I think that the op over at Survivalblog brought up some valid concerns. If you look at the situation in Argentina however, I think that we can all see that there are paradigm shifts in the masses once a certain line has been crossed. Although we are getting closer by the day, we are not there yet. People (even sheep) can be quick learners under the right pressure. On a side note, if pre-64 coins do not become widely accepted for barter/purchase, we will most likely always be able to trade them at a coin shop or black/grey market for whatever the going currency rate of the day is and then use that currency for our needs. Bx3

Saul Mine | 09-21-2009 09:03 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? All this fellow is saying is that some people will be better prepared than others, knowing what real substances are worth. Those who don't know will be in a poor position. A guy who has silver will not be desperate to find a buyer. Second, we have the usual assumption that there is something that is "real money" and you have to "sell" your silver for "real money" before you can buy anything. Third, many people seem to have this idea stuck in their heads that there is some group of people somewhere who make up all the laws and the rest of us can't do anything but live by those laws. To these people "TSHTF" means only that a new group will take over and inflict new laws, and we can only guess at what those new laws might be. Such basic beliefs are called "paradigm", and it is painful to go through a change of paradigm. But that's what we mean by "TSHTF" - all the laws disappear except the universal laws, and people have to relearn those. (At the moment there are some people who think the law of gravity is subject to congressional approval.)

Twisted Avatar | 09-21-2009 09:06 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx3 (Post 1933112) Thats a good point and I think that the op over at Survivalblog brought up some valid concerns. If you look at the situation in Argentina however, I think that we can all see that there are paradigm shifts in the masses once a certain line has been crossed. Although we are getting closer by the day, we are not there yet. People (even sheep) can be quick learners under the right pressure. On a side note, if pre-64 coins do not become widely accepted for barter/purchase, we will most likely always be able to trade them at a coin shop or black/grey market for whatever the going currency rate of the day is and then use that currency for our needs. Bx3
Anybody who is fool enough to use pre 64 coins at face is a effing idiot of the first order I will trade with them all day long a few tangible to get all there silver at that price. If that happens.........it will only be for a split second. Society will correct that behavior VERY quickly. T

DuneLurkin | 09-21-2009 09:27 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? When the paradigm shifts the people will learn how to operate in it. They will be searching through their change just like we do now.

gypsybiker45 | 09-21-2009 09:53 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? anyone doing business after SHTF will know what pre 64 silver looks like. people have always used money as it is the only way for society to continue. in post war Germany(the ultimate SHTF situation) reichsmarks werent exactly the currency of choice, but black market items could be purchased with PMs. preferably 5 reichsmark silver coins.

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Plastic | 09-21-2009 10:03 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsybiker45 (Post 1933282) black market items could be purchased with PMs. preferably 5 reichsmark silver coins.
What size was that coin in relation to American coins? Thanks.

11S11ver | 09-21-2009 10:24 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? i doubt we will all be going door to door looking for toilet paper and soap. post-collapse we will likely see a lot of market place type setups. warehouses and parking lots will be converted where you can go and buy and sell and barter and haggle. some gangster type will lord over it all and provide security in exchange for payment. i imagine your junk silver will be readily accepted at these places.

TTAZZMAN | 09-21-2009 10:34 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Silver coinage has been used as a currency of exchange for over 2000years......silver is silver......what people dont know they will figure out pretty damn fast....or starve what else is a person going to use to store wealth that has enduring value and is easily tradeable????

Unclad Lad | 09-21-2009 11:49 PM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Most people have trouble seeing the value in precious metals because Americans no longer equate money with a tangible unit. My paycheck, is deposited electronically, and I can then pay for most items without ever handling paper or metal. When that "money" becomes worthless, only then will coinage and scarce metals be seen as having value.

thrifty_bob | 09-22-2009 12:38 AM
Re: Will Junk Silver Be Accepted for Barter, Post-Collapse? Quote:
Originally Posted by TechGuy (Post 1932625) Short of war, I am having a hard time believing a true SHTF situation will happen. More of a very slow plunge into the abyss. And I agree about the people not recognizing 90% for what it really is. I stock silver that SAYS 1 oz pure silver .999
Yes, but its idiotic to pay any premium more than the silver content of the old currency. There won't be enough of either to go around in a SHTF scenario, and thus both will have value because of their silver content. Until the value of that content is recognized, the old currency will either just stay stashed away or be sold as collectible.

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