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electric-amish | 07-21-2007 09:47 AM
Zeroing distance question Later today I will go to a public range and try and Zero in a Ruger 10/22. At what distance would it be optimal to zero at. 100 yds seems far and unlikely do to the stock nature if the 10/22. 50 yds seems better. What do you think? E-A

Floyd | 07-21-2007 10:50 AM
Re: Zeroing distance question Scoped or open sight ? 100 yds if scoped , 50 yds opensight \ scoped. Really it is a preference choice. A pop can at 100 yds is not safe infront of my scoped ss\birch 10\22.

TomD | 07-21-2007 12:51 PM
Re: Zeroing distance question 50 is about ideal with a 22 rimfire. You most probable shots are going to be at 10 to 50 yards and a center hold will work from 0 to 75 yards. If you zero at 100, you'll be high for virtually every shot you take. If you want rimfire and 100 yards, I suggest a .17 cal. Humm, the column headers didn't copy. They are 25, 50, 75, 100 <table border="2" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffffcc"><td width="10%">.22 Rimfire (High Speed) 40 gr. Bullet 1260 fps </td> <td align="center" width="5%"> + .25"</td> <td align="center" width="5%">- 0 -</td> <td align="center" width="5%"> - 1.5"</td> <td align="center" width="5%"> - 4.75"</td></tr></tbody></table>

hoarder | 07-21-2007 01:55 PM
Re: Zeroing distance question I read somewhere that the "ideal" zero for .22 LR is 59 yards, I think because shots would be within 3/4 " at any distance under 75 yards.

electric-amish | 07-22-2007 01:23 AM
Re: Zeroing distance question Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 670609) 50 is about ideal with a 22 rimfire. You most probable shots are going to be at 10 to 50 yards and a center hold will work from 0 to 75 yards. If you zero at 100, you'll be high for virtually every shot you take. If you want rimfire and 100 yards, I suggest a .17 cal. Humm, the column headers didn't copy. They are 25, 50, 75, 100 <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%" border=2><TBODY><TR bgColor=#ffffcc><TD width="10%">.22 Rimfire (High Speed) 40 gr. Bullet 1260 fps </TD><TD align=middle width="5%">+ .25"</TD><TD align=middle width="5%">- 0 -</TD><TD align=middle width="5%">- 1.5"</TD><TD align=middle width="5%">- 4.75"</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Thanks for the answers. I racked my brain on the way to the range and determined the same. Most of my shots in the country are within 50 yards except for some 200 -300 yard hail Marys I shoot just to see how much they would fall. Anyway, interesting day. I had a very tight group for me of 10 in about a quarter size cluster at 50 yds. Then it got steadily worse. It opened up after the first ten. I don't think I was aiming worse but it got worse. Thinking maybe the barrel got hot and was deforming. E-A

shades2 | 07-22-2007 01:48 AM
Re: Zeroing distance question Quote:
Originally Posted by electric-amish (Post 671011) Thanks for the answers. I racked my brain on the way to the range and determined the same. Most of my shots in the country are within 50 yards except for some 200 -300 yard hail Marys I shoot just to see how much they would fall. Anyway, interesting day. I had a very tight group for me of 10 in about a quarter size cluster at 50 yds. Then it got steadily worse. It opened up after the first ten. I don't think I was aiming worse but it got worse. Thinking maybe the barrel got hot and was deforming. E-A
Any rifle barrel that is not a heavy barrel, will start to do this as you shoot more, it's normal. The tension in the steel begins to change as the temperature increases, which will "un-zero" the barrel until it cools down again. A heavy barrel effectively acts as a large heatsink, so it doesn't heat up so fast, and doesn't begin to flex after a few rounds. If you want that degree of accuracy, best to take a break, come back when the barrel has cooled down again. The barrel once cooled off should return to it's normal linear shape.

electric-amish | 07-22-2007 11:35 AM
Re: Zeroing distance question Quote:
Originally Posted by shades2 (Post 671016) Any rifle barrel that is not a heavy barrel, will start to do this as you shoot more, it's normal. The tension in the steel begins to change as the temperature increases, which will "un-zero" the barrel until it cools down again. A heavy barrel effectively acts as a large heatsink, so it doesn't heat up so fast, and doesn't begin to flex after a few rounds. If you want that degree of accuracy, best to take a break, come back when the barrel has cooled down again. The barrel once cooled off should return to it's normal linear shape.
Thanks for the confirmation! E-A

shades2 | 07-22-2007 11:49 AM
Re: Zeroing distance question Quote:
Originally Posted by electric-amish (Post 671189) Thanks for the confirmation! E-A
Rifle shooters do try and get around this sometimes by tensioning the stock, sometimes by glass bedding the barrel/action or providing tension with the forward stock screw. (Something like that anyway, I'm not talking from experience here). I would say on the whole, it's not worth bothering with, and it's better to buy the kind of gun you want for the accuracy. You do know that the first shots you fire will be on target though, before the barrel heats up. You can avoid the barrel heating somewhat, by slowing your rate of fire right down. I had a look at the Sako rifle someone else mentioned recently, it's available in .308, heavy free-floated barrel but costs around $4500 here. Great rifle though. Major accuracy, and it's a production rifle. Maybe in 5 years time... sigh... :) Be perfect for hunting large game.

electric-amish | 07-22-2007 12:05 PM
Re: Zeroing distance question Accuracy off the shelf can come in a cheap ugly package... I spent some time at a Gun shop replenishing bullets and gabbing yesterday. I asked about a long distance accurate rifle. Something that could hit out to 600 yards. Savage was recommended to me by the owner and also a Gunnery Sargent. He said for the buck it can't be beat. I tried the Savage accutriger and its smooth and light but felt funky on my finger . He also said the barrel nut is why its accurate because its infinitely adjustable for head space. Head Space== the distance between the bullet and the rifling in the barrel--this affects the bullet jump so it starts spinning correctly instead of shaving the bullet on the groves from rifling.(Thats the way I understood it--It may be wrong but thats what I came away with) I am not an expert so I believed it all. But Savage Rifles are accurate and that barrel nut makes them cheap to produce as well as ugly. a .270 caliber for around $500. E-A

electric-amish | 07-22-2007 12:14 PM
Re: Zeroing distance question High end production rifle to look at is a Saure--Made in Germany (from the name) They are about $2500 new. The shop owner had one for $950 used 30-06 with mounts for the scope already on it. It is to much for me now but I will probably wish I had found a way some day. But for this type of money it would probably be better to get a Gunsmith to Marjory go over a good Remington. E-A

shades2 | 07-22-2007 01:21 PM
Re: Zeroing distance question Quote:
Originally Posted by electric-amish (Post 671216) Accuracy off the shelf can come in a cheap ugly package... I spent some time at a Gun shop replenishing bullets and gabbing yesterday. I asked about a long distance accurate rifle. Something that could hit out to 600 yards. Savage was recommended to me by the owner and also a Gunnery Sargent. He said for the buck it can't be beat. I tried the Savage accutriger and its smooth and light but felt funky on my finger . He also said the barrel nut is why its accurate because its infinitely adjustable for head space. Head Space== the distance between the bullet and the rifling in the barrel--this affects the bullet jump so it starts spinning correctly instead of shaving the bullet on the groves from rifling.(Thats the way I understood it--It may be wrong but thats what I came away with) I am not an expert so I believed it all. But Savage Rifles are accurate and that barrel nut makes them cheap to produce as well as ugly. a .270 caliber for around $500. E-A
I've read quite a few articles, which included pictures of shot-groupings. Savage have an excellent reputation for the price. Apparently, it can't be beat in that price range. Your description is kind of correct. Headspace is perhaps better described here: http://www.hornady.com/ballistics/internal.php "The concept of headspace is one every shooter should understand fully, both in the interest of more accurate shooting and personal safety. In the Illustrated Glossary at the back of the 7th Edition of the Hornady Handbook we summarize four different headspacing systems and define the term very simply as "the fit of a cartridge in a chamber measured as the distance from the http://www.hornady.com/images/ballis...loading_12.jpgbreech face to that part of the chamber which stops the case's forward movement." As we have just seen with this rimless case, an imperfect fit of the cartridge in the chamber will result in case stretching in the critical head region. Fired in a chamber having considerable headspace, this 308 Winchester case (right - closeup) has had its wall thickness substantially reduced at the critical head region - and would almost certainly have separated on the next firing - as did this case (far right). Such a rupture might permit gas to escape rearward through the action, endangering the safety of the shooter." So headspace is more about the case fit in the chamber, fully seated than the bullet/projectile. Not knowing too much about adjusting headspace, I would say that it's a handy feature if adjustable, because you can accomodate different ammo that might have ever so slightly different case lengths. (even if you are just talking fractions of a millimeter). It also avoids fire-forming your cases (ever so slightly) into perhaps, undesireable sizes, thereby weakening them, particularly at the case head and having the case jump slightly. When the case jumps, if the headspace is ever so slightly out, this is going to possibly alter the shape of the case. This means energy wasted on effectively fire-forming/weakening the brass, and less expended on your projectile. With the headspace set up right (nice and tight), the projectile is in the right spot to start engaging the rifling almost immediately (depending on the rifle). I think this has more to do with achieving consistent velocity (and being nice to your brass and safety) of the projectile. The projectile is going to engage the rifling properly anyway, what's important is the speed it is going at, more consistent the better. I can't really see the projectile going off on a tangent before engaging rifling and settling down, there just isn't enough room, the projectile is seated properly in the casing, it is going to go forward, and it's going to do it instantaneously. What does matter is Newton's law, if there is a gap, ie. wrong headspacing, the casing is going to move backward first (equal and opposite reaction), then it's going to get slightly fire-formed, and velocity is going to be affected of the projectile due to the energy losses. This may seem trivial, but if you are trying to achieve long distance accuracy, the lost velocity in terms of fps is going to make a difference. I would say, on a rimfire, I wouldn't care as much as the case is disposed of and is a one-off. On a centrefire, if you are going to reload, it could save a lot of time and effort re-sizing or weakening cases substantially (not that you wouldn't check them over anyway). If you have the headspace adjusted right. So find your favourite ammo, and setup the headspacing just-so for it, then you should get consistent accuracy. Perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance of rifles here, but that's how it seems to me. :)

TomD | 07-22-2007 03:09 PM
Re: Zeroing distance question Quote:
Originally Posted by electric-amish (Post 671216) Savage was recommended to me by the owner and also a Gunnery Sargent. He said for the buck it can't be beat. I tried the Savage accutriger and its smooth and light but felt funky on my finger . He also said the barrel nut is why its accurate because its infinitely adjustable for head space. E-A
Savage ugly? What's ugly about this? This is a BVSS that I've had for a while. It was originally 22-250 but it's now rebarreled in a fast twist 6mm BR. I shoot this in F class matches at 600 yards. It will easily hold 3 inches at 600 (until the wind starts acting up). You'll notice that I abandoned the barrel nut with the rebarrel. The action is bedded and the trigger has been swapped out to a Canjar set trigger. I have 2 other Savages, a stock one in 223 and another with a Lilja barrel in 260. Is Savage accurate for the money? Actually, that question is a little funny because Savage is the most accurate stock rifle out there for any money. I've been running matches for about 15 years and have seen many hundreds of rifles put through their paces. Month before last, we had 7 guys from some gun club show up to take part in a score match at 100 & 200 yards. They brought an Accuracy International, a couple of $1500 FNs with Swarovski scopes, a Ruger, Remington, Cz and, of course a Savage, all in 308. The Savage beat all the rest so badly that it was in another class. When it's in competition, every shot counts and no excuses, the Savages win. I think it's because Savage makes their own barrels but mostly because of the floating head on the bolt. We did have a guy with a Dakota rifle in 223 that would shoot with the Savages, at about 5 times the cost. He would win occasionally. http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...7/DSC09531.jpg

money matters | 07-23-2007 02:07 PM
Re: Zeroing distance question Has anyone mentioned the desirability of adapting the "Battle Sight Zero" concept for sporting rifles yet? The BSZ makes use of the two points on the trajectory path where the bullet rises and falls within, say 2", of the sight-in point. IE with a given bullet traveling at given velocity if you sight in at say 175 yards, your bullet will strike 2" high at 50yds and 2" low at 275yds. The above is just an example. Sierra, Hornady, and Barnes have trajectory tables for their bullets which define impact based on ballistic coefficient and velocity. A bullet with higher ballistic coefficient, like a boattail match bullet will maintain velocity better and drop less than a round nose bullet of the same weight. Nice to know that you can concentrate on aiming and trigger control on any target within your BSZ and get a hit inside a 4 inch circle. Not exactly benchrest shooting technique, but virtually any game animal bigger than a squirrel is harvestable and using a BSZ with a duplex or other reticle with known width hashmarks, milling reticle, mil-dot etc, means you can holdover with great accuracy for longer range shots you don't have time to dial in on your scope. With a duplex scope, you might find that using the bottom thicker post for your aiming point, that you are 20 inches higher at 250yds. Look at the trajectory table and see that this puts you just about right on at 400yds. All sorts of ways to zero your rifle, and ammunition will vary especially by maker/brand with .22LR. Just be sure you know the impact points of the various loads you have access to. Some cartridges are reputed to fire to close to the same impact point regardless of bullet weight, or so Jack O'Connor stated about the .270Win and .375 H&H. Maybe so, but doubtful until you confirm it yourself. The twist rate of a given barrel will also have a lot to do with how accurately it will place different bullet weights on target. Typically, heavier bullets will have better ballistic coefficient and remain supersonic longer wich matters greatly for accurate distance shooting. I have not fired a Savage 110 highpower rifle. The barrel nut aspect is very fine for switch-barrelling that rifle. Brownells also sells pre-threaded barrels by Shilen for the Savage. If you own a headspace gauge for the calibers you want to switch-barrel, you'd be set with a Savage. A Shilen barrel is a fine aid to accuracy. Remington 700s also shoot very well right out of the box. They are preferable over other makes because of the enormous market of accessories that are available. The Remington 700 is the most commonly accurized/customized bolt rifle for tactical and general hunting use in America because like the Colt 1911 and AR-15 all the options are there already and you don't have to reinvent the wheel to get what you want. The Ruger 10/22 rifles are the most customized .22LR rifle. With a custom barrel, stock, and a good scope, many people report they are super accurate out to 100yds, maybe more. Ammunition choice becomes the main factor for accuracy with a setup .22LR. If you want to shoot bulk, cheap ammo; you can buy a rim thickness gage and mic the rims of your ammo. Segregate it by thickness and your prospects of uniform accuracy increase measurably. Sinclair Intl used to sell these tools. Fun, if you've got the time, otherwise Eley Tennex or some other match ammo will show you if your rifle will really shoot.

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