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- - Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=421084)

Twisted Avatar | 11-03-2009 06:27 PM
Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Mr. Rawles, I am a retired Army warrant officer working for the Army teaching Electronic Warfare and Signal Intelligence. I only started reading your blog last week. It's addictive, but slightly disturbing. Having worked for the Army for 27 years in a number of different failed countries I may have a unique perspective on survival that I would like to share with your readers. I believe most of the "survivalist community" is vastly underestimating the impact that other humans are going to have on their plans. Hunkering down and waiting for everyone to die off is a simplistic plan and I believe has almost no chance of working. You may be able to hide your retreat, but you can't hide the land it sits on. That land itself may become a scarce commodity if the US transitions to an agrarian economy. Food is the key resource. Most communities are at risk because they simply don't have enough calories stored to get them through any kind of crisis. But, storage is no more than limited capital to allow people time to grow more food. Food production requires land....if your retreat is sitting on farmable land, it will be a scarce resource. Carrying capacity of the US using non-petroleum farming techniques is far lower than most of your readers probably think. Also, most areas of the US, especially cities, don't have anywhere near enough farm-able land to go back to some kind of agrarian pattern. Without public infrastructure and modern transportation, we are going to experience a huge die-off caused mostly by starvation. In a total collapse scenario without immediate restoration of the economy, basically everyone who lives in a city is doomed unless they can take over some kind of farm land. If you live in an area without enough farm land, you will be a "have not". Period. I don't care how much food you have stored in your basement. Here is my key point. These teeming millions will not just starve and go away. I believe that anyone who thinks they can defend a working farm against raiders is deluding themselves. 1. People are dangerous. They are the most dangerous animal on earth. You can never lose sight of that! In almost any society breakdown scenario you can think of, you will be surrounded by starving predators that are much more dangerous than tigers. In the USA, every one of them (or at least the vast majority) will be armed with firearms. The ones currently without firearms will obtain them by any means necessary including looting government armories. These are thinking-breathing and highly motivated enemies. 2. Raiders, defined as "outlaw looting groups" may be a threat for a very short period, but I really don't see groups of more than 4-6 ever forming...they will be quickly replaced by much larger groups of "citizens" doing essentially the same things, but much better armed and organized. An Example: A few hours after Albania's political crisis in 1998, (which was caused by a national lottery scam), almost every adult male in the country procured an AKM from government stocks. Armories were the first targets looted. I flew into Tirana packing a pistol and a sack of money, naively thinking I would be able to move around the country and defend myself. What a laugh. Everyone had me outgunned, and the vast majority of them had military training of some sort. I never got out of the capital city. Every road seemed to have roadblocks every few miles, blocked by armed local citizens. 3. Without central authority, people don't just starve and go away. They form their own polities (governments). These polities are often organized around town or city government or local churches. They may call it a city counsel or a committee or a senate. The bottom line is, "We The People" will do whatever "We" have to do to survive. And that specifically includes taking your storage goods. 4. When (not if) a polity forms near you, you had better be part of that process. If not, you will be looked upon as a "resource" instead of a member of the community. The local polity will pass a resolution (or whatever) and "legally" confiscate your goods. If you resist, they will crush you. They will have the resources of a whole community to draw upon including weapons, vehicles, manpower, electronics, tear gas, etc. Every scrap of government owned equipment and weaponry will be used, by someone. Anyone who plans to hold out against that kind of threat is delusional. 5. The local polity that forms is almost certainly going to make mistakes. Some of them are lethal blunders. Odds are, the locals will probably not have given a lot of serious thought to facing long term survival. They will squander resources and delay implementing necessary actions (like planting more food or working together to defend a harvest). They may even decide to take in thousands of refugees from nearby cities, thereby almost insuring their own longer term starvation. A much better approach is to be an integral part of the community and use the combined resources of the community to defend all of your resources together. This would be much easier if a high percentage of the community were like minded folks who were committed to sharing and cooperating. Because any community with food is likely going to have to somehow survive while facing even larger polities, like nearby cities, counties or even state governments. Don't expect to face a walking hoard of lightly armed, starving individuals. Expect to face a professional, determined army formed by a government of some kind. A small farming community can probably support a few outsiders, but not very many. The community will need to politically deal with outside polities or they will face a war they can't win. Hiding the fact that you are self sufficient is going to be hard. You can't hide farm land. Defending your resources against the nearby city will be even harder. You may be able to save the community by buying protection with surplus food...if you have prepared for that. You may indeed have to fight, but stalling that event for even a year could mean the difference between living and being overwhelmed. In any case, your community needs to go into the crisis with a plan. You may be able to shape that plan if you become a community leader instead of a "resource". With Very Kind Regards, - R.J. JWR Replies: You've summed up some essential truths quite succinctly. Your points square nicely with the scenario in my first novel ("Patriots"). It also matches my premise of gemeinschaft kampfgeist, in the context of cohesion in the "we/they paradigm." http://www.survivalblog.com/

TechGuy | 11-03-2009 07:01 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Good writeup... lots to think about. Sad part is that if everyone had a reasonable amount of food storage, and were reasonably self sufficient, many of these issues would take care of themselves.

Merlin | 11-03-2009 07:03 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Well, that was depressing. Now what?

TechGuy | 11-03-2009 07:04 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin (Post 2006173) Well, that was depressing. Now what?
Before or after we all slit our wrists???

WilliamC | 11-03-2009 07:05 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Good read, great advice. I live in a small town (~5,000) and very much need to get more involved with it. Becoming a respected member of my community and having some preps will be better for survival than being a recluse with lots of preps. Time to join the Lions Club I'm thinking...

Twisted Avatar | 11-03-2009 07:07 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by TechGuy (Post 2006167) Good writeup... lots to think about. Sad part is that if everyone had a reasonable amount of food storage, and were reasonable self sufficient, many of these issues would take care of themselves.
Why prep?? I got a draw full on takeout menus. Half a bottle of soda in the fridge. Not one but THREE boxes of micro waveable popcorn in the cabinet. And my cable bill is paid for the next 6ix months( okay, it was a promo package but still) Bring on the Zombie Apocalypse baby. IM READY. :23_30_104:

TechGuy | 11-03-2009 07:10 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Sort of thought of another point... If you happen to be THE guy that has a listeroid generator and fuel hooked up to a trusted water source, it seems like it would be much easier to have everyone band together to help defend you and your setup.

ShortJohnSilver | 11-03-2009 07:33 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 2006185) Why prep?? Bring on the Zombie Apocalypse baby. IM READY. :23_30_104:
There will be those that will go "colonial" on you ... http://cdn2.knowyourmeme.com/i/10630...jpg?1250960225

Merlin | 11-03-2009 07:59 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by TechGuy (Post 2006178) Before or after we all slit our wrists???
I just took 14 pints of canned potatoes out of the canner -- feeling like a fool.

Terry853 | 11-03-2009 09:28 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin (Post 2006288) I just took 14 pints of canned potatoes out of the canner -- feeling like a fool.
I am canning about 40 lbs of coho salmon right now. Can everything you can..might taste good real good a year or two from now,. stand by to stand by....

Nomoss | 11-03-2009 10:21 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Thanks TA. On the same link was this.. The Flash to Bang Count: Observations on the October Indonesian Asteroid Airburst A few days ago, The Telegraph reported: "An asteroid that exploded in the Earth's atmosphere with the energy of three Hiroshima bombs this month has reignited fears about our planet's defenses against space impacts. On 8 October, the rock crashed into the atmosphere above South Sulawesi, Indonesia. The asteroid was around 20 meters across and hit the Earth's atmosphere at 45,000 mph. The blast was heard by monitoring stations 10,000 miles away, according to a report by scientists at the University of Western Ontario. Scientists are concerned that it was not spotted by any telescopes, and that had it been larger it could have caused a disaster. Luckily, due to the height of the explosion - estimated at between 15 and 20 km (nine to 12 miles) above sea level - no damage was caused on the ground." Later reports mentioned and estimated 5 to 10 meter diameter for the asteroid. Let's consider the implications of this event. If this had happened in the skies over a First World nation, or if the explosion had taken places at ground level (or near ground level, a la the 1908 Tunguska event), then there would be a huge clamor and calls for early asteroid impact prediction, and greater preparedness. But since this took place above what most consider a backwater nation, and there was no visible damage on the ground to photograph, this news story was resigned to "minor headline" status. And what if the object had been 100 meters in diameter, instead of 20? We've previously discussed asteroids with Earth-crossing orbits--also known as Near Earth Objects (NEOs)-- and the consequences of potential impacts in SurvivalBlog. Asteroid impacts are one of those "low likelihood but high disruption" events. The chances of one occurring in our lifetimes is relatively low, but if one were to happen, the implications would be huge. In anticipation of future asteroid impacts, here are some factors to consider: * An asteroid impact could cause short-term climate change that could in turn cause multi-year crop failures on a hemispheric or even global scale. This means that it would be prudent to have multiple years food storage * The importance of living in inland areas. Let's face it: coastal areas anywhere on earth are vulnerable to mega-tsunamis, if you factor-in the threat of asteroid impacts. Unless there is some massive intervening terrain, don't live at less than 500 feet above sea level if you must live within 25 miles of an ocean. A 300+ foot high tsunami might seem hard to imagine, but just ask an astrophysicist. It is possible, and in fact there is some geologic evidence that that mega-tsunamis have occurred in the past 6,000 years. * Never underestimate the implications of mass hysteria and misdirected government reaction to a crisis. News of imminent crop failures might inspire executive orders mandating the collection of "hoarded" food. Hint: This will probably include food that you started storing years ago--long before any imminent threat warning or post-incident panic buying. So I must again warn my readers that it is wise to keep a low profile about your preparations. I have been studying the threat of asteroid impacts for many years. NEOs represent a "wild card"scenario. Since a fairly complete orbital path tracking database probably won't exist for 20+ years, this threat will remain an imponderable for the foreseeable future. Until a fully-populated database is developed, this will remain a quasi-voodoo science. The Indonesian event illustrates just how easy it is to get blind-sided. And even after we have complete tracking data, it will be decades longer before we start to proactively develop a program to "nudge" the larger NEO asteroids into safer orbits. But again, keep in mind that this is one of those "low actuarial risk/high consequence" events. Plan accordingly.

TechGuy | 11-03-2009 10:40 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin (Post 2006288) I just took 14 pints of canned potatoes out of the canner -- feeling like a fool.
Regardless of what I read, I still feel like food storage will one day be more valuable than gold. Keep stocking.... keep canning. We made 78 jars of strawberry jam and blueberry jam this weekend. Very rewarding... just tried some of the 'orphan' jam that was put into the fridge (not a full jar's worth, so it goes into the fridge instead of the water bath). YUM!!!!!

Haltiat | 11-04-2009 01:26 AM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse The warrant officer seems to have glossed over the part where the panicked, desperate people stampede each other to death. Then rob each other to death. Then turf war each other to death. Then get devastated by disease. People, especially fat people like you commonly see in cities, can go a long time without food and all of the above will happen within the first couple weeks of hunger. He has a few good points but he speaks from the perspective of someone who is accustomed to functioning as part of a great political machine and the presence of the most powerful military in the history of civilization is in itself a stabilizing influence on those failed nations he has visited. An army crawls on its belly, if there was truly a shortage of food and other basics no army can survive very long. A determined individual or even a few neighbors can lay waste to any pseudo-army numbering only a few hundred individuals. Of course it takes the right kind of person with the right knowledge and skills to do that. If you aren't sure how it works you aren't the right sort of person and you'd better come up with an alternative strategy.

Unclad Lad | 11-04-2009 03:20 AM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
The warrant officer seems to have glossed over the part where the panicked, desperate people stampede each other to death. Then rob each other to death. Then turf war each other to death. Then get devastated by disease. People, especially fat people like you commonly see in cities, can go a long time without food and all of the above will happen within the first couple weeks of hunger.
How many cities within a full tank of gas to you? People will flee the cities-especially if there is a disease breakout. Quote:
A determined individual or even a few neighbors can lay waste to any pseudo-army numbering only a few hundred individuals.
CAN, if you are dealing with mobs or unorganized hordes. But you'd have to be set up now-this isn't you and the next door neighbor can just throw together. Get enough of a mob and eventually some of them will push through.

Haltiat | 11-04-2009 03:50 AM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclad Lad (Post 2006876) How many cities within a full tank of gas to you? People will flee the cities-especially if there is a disease breakout.
Remember NOLA. Several tanks of gas and all the wishing in the world won't always even get you to the other side of town. I have no doubts that the zombies will do their best to get out of the cities but most of them won't and can't get far. The ones that do will try their best to eat each other and anyone else they find. If things progress to that point a week won't go by till people start putting up road blocks and shooting zombies on sight. The US has a long way to fall, even the poor. It won't work like it does in other countries that have always been rock bottom. Quote:
CAN, if you are dealing with mobs or unorganized hordes. But you'd have to be set up now-this isn't you and the next door neighbor can just throw together. Get enough of a mob and eventually some of them will push through.
You aren't one of those kinds of people. Your time would be better spent on alternate strategies.

Hi Ho | 11-04-2009 07:50 AM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Fortunately for us that live out in the country (beyond walking distance 50mi), cities will become death traps when TSHTF. All food is JIT. Transport can't handle but a small percentage at one time. Highways will gridlock with out of gas cars. I agree with OPs story on one point. If we think governments have gone rogue now, just wait. Liberty? bwahahaaa! Hide your preps well and in multiple places. plant your food everywhere you can in small plots make it difficult to find and steal. Don't stockpile a harvest in jars in your basement, they have to be cached as well. We have to make ourselves not worth the fight or organized intervention once panic sets in. Those of us who live in the country and don't use pesticides on our gardens are used to losing a portion or our crop to insects and fauna. Be prepared to give or barter away some food or you may loose all in a firefight. JMO

Golddust | 11-04-2009 08:10 AM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Ho (Post 2007030) Fortunately for us that live out in the country (beyond walking distance 50mi), cities will become death traps when TSHTF. All food is JIT. Transport can't handle but a small percentage at one time. Highways will gridlock with out of gas cars. I agree with OPs story on one point. If we think governments have gone rogue now, just wait. Liberty? bwahahaaa! Hide your preps well and in multiple places. plant your food everywhere you can in small plots make it difficult to find and steal. Don't stockpile a harvest in jars in your basement, they have to be cached as well. We have to make ourselves not worth the fight or organized intervention once panic sets in. Those of us who live in the country and don't use pesticides on our gardens are used to losing a portion or our crop to insects and fauna. Be prepared to give or barter away some food or you may loose all in a firefight. JMO
It would seem to say from all of the above is to keep as low a profile as possible and then some.. Blend in and do not stand out Do not give any clues about what you have or are doing. Stay dark and be invisible and do not stand out in anyway... Just a thought...

Hi Ho | 11-04-2009 08:19 AM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by Golddust (Post 2007057) It would seem to say from all of the above is to keep as low a profile as possible and then some.. Blend in and do not stand out Do not give any clues about what you have or are doing. Stay dark and be invisible and do not stand out in anyway... Just a thought...
Absolutely, also be prepared to bend in the wind a bit so you don't get snapped off, if indeed survival is your goal. There weren't too many survivors at the Alamo.

Brio | 11-04-2009 08:21 AM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse I brought this subject up briefly a while ago, how somebody would have to take control and organize, be a leader. I was laughed at, called 'controlling'. But it isn't funny, in this instance of collapse where survival depends on organization and designation of duty, somebody has to understand what needs to be done and make it happen. For ie, if I had friends and neighbors come to me because I have land water and seeds, i would say 'fine but this is how it works' and assign everybody a part. Nobody sits on their ass including me, nobody challenges me, nobody stays without doing their share and then some. I wouldn't say 'go away' because it wouldn't work that way, they'll come back as predators not contributors. I would say 'I decide'

Canadian-guerilla | 11-04-2009 08:36 AM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by momopanda The stuff you need in excess in order to interact and make yourself valuable to others. That ain't gonna be the most valuable stuff necessarily. Least to you and yours. The most valuable asset , and one I am most certainly lacking in, as are so many others I think, is the ability to stay undetected . Lotta folk think they're gonna just hunker down, in the their lair , a half mile off the beaten track and wait it out. Maybe. But the guys that think that they're gonna go on pretty much unchanged are in for a surprise I bet. Lotta people think that they're just gonna fire up the generator and solar panels and keep the a/c on and watch their dvd collection while gnoshing on smoked venison. I bet people are gonna be surprised, if ts really htf and power was gone. Take away the everpresent background noise of planes and highways and a/c units and I bet you'd be amazed at exactly how far away a person can hear a generator humming, especially after a few weeks of complete silence. Never mind a hunting rifle shot. How far away they can smell meat cooking, or the sulfur from a coal burning stove. Them solar panels are an invitation to everyone from 5 miles at a better altitude that says , "Hey, I'm prepped". Spot a lit window from miles away is my guess. Why hasn't Joe lost as much weight as everyone else? Not saying it ain't worth doing , just sayin' is all. The ability to stay undetected may be the most underrated and most difficult prep there is . http://goldismoney.info/forums/showp...9&postcount=52
i'm one of these guys who plan to " bug-out " but not to just one location, right now i have 3 BOL's ( with caches ) with a makeshift standby defense/survival thru mobility

Golddust | 11-04-2009 08:42 AM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Ho (Post 2007081) Absolutely, also be prepared to bend in the wind a bit so you don't get snapped off, if indeed survival is your goal. There weren't too many survivors at the Alamo.
Agree.. That was what I meant by blending in.....and being invisible. You will seem to be one of them when and if needed...

Golddust | 11-04-2009 08:51 AM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by Brio (Post 2007082) I brought this subject up briefly a while ago, how somebody would have to take control and organize, be a leader. I was laughed at, called 'controlling'. But it isn't funny, in this instance of collapse where survival depends on organization and designation of duty, somebody has to understand what needs to be done and make it happen. For ie, if I had friends and neighbors come to me because I have land water and seeds, i would say 'fine but this is how it works' and assign everybody a part. Nobody sits on their ass including me, nobody challenges me, nobody stays without doing their share and then some. I wouldn't say 'go away' because it wouldn't work that way, they'll come back as predators not contributors. I would say 'I decide'
Agree! No one person or group can stand alone. In a bad time the only way to survive long term is to find others like minded or at least people that will agree to work for the common good of survival. The ones that are rejected could find others like minded and cause problems. In a truly shtf times having allies is the only way to have an even remote chance to make it long term.... No one will be able to make it alone...No one....

Twisted Avatar | 11-04-2009 09:58 AM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Brio (Post 2007082) I brought this subject up briefly a while ago, how somebody would have to take control and organize, be a leader. I was laughed at, called 'controlling'. But it isn't funny, in this instance of collapse where survival depends on organization and designation of duty, somebody has to understand what needs to be done and make it happen. For ie, if I had friends and neighbors come to me because I have land water and seeds, i would say 'fine but this is how it works' and assign everybody a part. Nobody sits on their ass including me, nobody challenges me, nobody stays without doing their share and then some. I wouldn't say 'go away' because it wouldn't work that way, they'll come back as predators not contributors. I would say 'I decide'
I have the speech ready and wating for all the fair weather friends and family that show up on my door step at the 11th hour. All adults will be summoned and told the following: Lest there be no mistake: This not a democracy,republic,community or any other fancy term you have dancing around in your heads. THIS IS A DICTATORSHIP AND I AM THE DICTATOR ..........MY WORD IS THE LAW. ANYBODY HERE (Young or old) WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH ME TELLING THEM WHAT TO DO LET THEM SPEAK RIGHT NOW AS YOU WILL BE PROVIDED A SMALL CARE PACKAGE AND SHOWN THE DOOR. A NEW AGE HAS DAWNED IN AMERICA. THE TIME OF THE WARLORD IS HERE. Those who elected to remain will be assigned their tasks and monitored closely under my strong hand.

Brio | 11-04-2009 10:25 AM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse LOL TA, that would work, would be the only way it could, as GoldDust pointed out. But (just a 'for if' here) my husband would be the dictator, we understand people have different strengths and weaknesses. His strength is he doesn't give a sh!t what anybody thinks, couldn't care less about making a grown man cry (and has) where I'm a softie but I know what needs to be done. It occurs to me...tshtf is a tremendous opportunity for those with their wits about them.

S_Goldberg | 11-04-2009 10:31 AM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
A determined individual or even a few neighbors can lay waste to any pseudo-army numbering only a few hundred individuals. Of course it takes the right kind of person with the right knowledge and skills to do that. If you aren't sure how it works you aren't the right sort of person and you'd better come up with an alternative strategy.
You have never seen combat have you? Quit talking out your ass.

Iptuous | 11-04-2009 10:35 AM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Does anybody here follow the Global Guerillas blog? he always has interesting information and insight. i ask because he is big on establishing the "Resilient Community" idea... http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/...silient-c.html

philobeddoe | 11-04-2009 12:14 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Does anybody here see a pattern? Being a Swede among a town of 5000scandinavians in minnesota or being a nobody in a multikulti town in Florida, where even your white neighbors turn on you for being a 'racist'? I think we all lnow the answer

S_Goldberg | 11-04-2009 02:30 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 2007227) I have the speech ready and wating for all the fair weather friends and family that show up on my door step at the 11th hour. All adults will be summoned and told the following: Lest there be no mistake: This not a democracy,republic,community or any other fancy term you have dancing around in your heads. THIS IS A DICTATORSHIP AND I AM THE DICTATOR ..........MY WORD IS THE LAW. ANYBODY HERE (Young or old) WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH ME TELLING THEM WHAT TO DO LET THEM SPEAK RIGHT NOW AS YOU WILL BE PROVIDED A SMALL CARE PACKAGE AND SHOWN THE DOOR. A NEW AGE HAS DAWNED IN AMERICA. THE TIME OF THE WARLORD IS HERE. Those who elected to remain will be assigned their tasks and monitored closely under my strong hand.
You must feel small and unimportant in your life. That is the only reason to fantasize about controlling people and imagining you have power over others. You should consider a career in law enforcement. You'll find many like-minded people.

Iptuous | 11-04-2009 03:01 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by S_Goldberg (Post 2007696) You must feel small and unimportant in your life. That is the only reason to fantasize about controlling people and imagining you have power over others. You should consider a career in law enforcement. You'll find many like-minded people.
Now, now, Goldberg... We are all small and unimportant, ultimately. and that is a moot point, anyways, because one doesn't need a reason to fantasize about controlling people. everybody wants to rule the world. Its my own design Its my own remorse Help me to decide Help me make the most Of freedom and of pleasure Nothing ever lasts forever ...

Twisted Avatar | 11-04-2009 03:36 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by S_Goldberg (Post 2007696) You must feel small and unimportant in your life. That is the only reason to fantasize about controlling people and imagining you have power over others. You should consider a career in law enforcement. You'll find many like-minded people.
Not in the least My Good Sir. I have No desire to Lord over anyone. I would much rather prefer to go about my life and learn to play several instruments and study nature in depth. I just happen to have a very simple, yet keen, understanding of world we occupy: IF YOU COME TO ME SEEKING HELP, 9 TIMES OUT OF TEN I WILL BUT YOU WILL DO AS YOU ARE TOLD BECAUSE IT IS YOU WHO NEEDS ME NOT VICE VERSA. Life in its most raw form is quite harsh But nature rewards those who can rise to the occasion. The fact that we are hear today is proof positive we all come from a strong Bloodline of Winners. THE WEAK DONT BREED.....AT LEAST NOT FOR LONG. When I need help or specific knowledge I have no problem sitting at 'The Feet of the Masters" being admonished as needed or carrying the costs of mentorship. As my Momma would say: EVERYTHING IN THIS LIFE COMES AT A PRICE AND BEFORE YOU ATTAIN IT YOU WILL PAY FOR IT IN FULL AND UP FRONT FIRST. Sometimes that price is being told what to do by someone who is 15 years your junior,senior, opposite sex, race or getting bamboozeled outta money cause you didnt know better etc. Dose that hurt? Yes. So does being hungry,cold and eventually DEAD. Now........You choose. T

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Haltiat | 11-04-2009 03:37 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 2007227) I have the speech ready and wating for all the fair weather friends and family that show up on my door step at the 11th hour. All adults will be summoned and told the following: Lest there be no mistake: This not a democracy,republic,community or any other fancy term you have dancing around in your heads. THIS IS A DICTATORSHIP AND I AM THE DICTATOR ..........MY WORD IS THE LAW. ANYBODY HERE (Young or old) WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH ME TELLING THEM WHAT TO DO LET THEM SPEAK RIGHT NOW AS YOU WILL BE PROVIDED A SMALL CARE PACKAGE AND SHOWN THE DOOR. A NEW AGE HAS DAWNED IN AMERICA. THE TIME OF THE WARLORD IS HERE. Those who elected to remain will be assigned their tasks and monitored closely under my strong hand.
The trick always is keeping your throne. The sort of locusts you will rule will automatically feel they aren't getting their "fair share" and may team up just long enough to overthrow you. It isn't just "the people have spoken" that you have to be concerned about. The slimiest little weasel will also try to stab you in the back just because he's mad at you. Everyone will agree to your terms even if they don't mean it, they will want to get their bread buttered. Not everyone who submits an application should be given membership. That is also a tough situation to handle.

Unclad Lad | 11-05-2009 01:16 AM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclad Lad CAN, if you are dealing with mobs or unorganized hordes. But you'd have to be set up now-this isn't you and the next door neighbor can just throw together. Get enough of a mob and eventually some of them will push through.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltiat You aren't one of those kinds of people. Your time would be better spent on alternate strategies.
I agree completely! But most of the people who think of themselves as heartless "Mow 'em all down and let Shiva figure it out" Rambos are posturing. Few here could put a small (not a zombie) child in the crosshairs and simply pull the trigger. Best to have a realistic plan.

scyth | 11-05-2009 02:01 AM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Mall Ninjaism - cf: this You Tube
You Tube
Now let us get back to chicken coops. scyth

Haltiat | 11-05-2009 06:39 AM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclad Lad (Post 2008685) I agree completely! But most of the people who think of themselves as heartless "Mow 'em all down and let Shiva figure it out" Rambos are posturing. Few here could put a small (not a zombie) child in the crosshairs and simply pull the trigger. Best to have a realistic plan.
Yes indeed and it isn't an impugnment of your manhood either. It's a skilled trade like any other that requires its own special mix of experience, ability and temperament. Heartlessness... "mow'em all down..." static defenses... Rambo... ninjas... children... it's amazing what people will come up with. I respect your composure so I will point out that if one were interested in the academic aspects of resisting a hostile post-SHTF polity with only very limited resources one would do well to study the works of gentlemen like Simo Hayha and Vasily Zaytsev. In any case it has nothing to do with entrenchment or blazing glory.

Unclad Lad | 11-05-2009 02:28 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Thanks-I'll try to find them at the library. But given that they were both military snipers, it still doesn't deal with the "fortress mentality" so common on this type of forum-as you put it, "static defenses".

obilly | 11-05-2009 03:32 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 2007835) Not in the least My Good Sir. I have No desire to Lord over anyone. I would much rather prefer to go about my life and learn to play several instruments and study nature in depth. I just happen to have a very simple, yet keen, understanding of world we occupy: IF YOU COME TO ME SEEKING HELP, 9 TIMES OUT OF TEN I WILL BUT YOU WILL DO AS YOU ARE TOLD BECAUSE IT YOU WHO NEEDS ME NOT VICE VERSA. Life in its most raw form is quite harsh But nature rewards those who can rise to occasion. The fact that we are hear today is proof positive we come from a strong Bloodline of Winners. THE WEAK DONT BREED.....AT LEAST NOT FOR LONG. When I need help or specific knowledge I have no problem sitting at 'The Feet of the Masters" being admonished as needed or carrying the costs of mentorship. As my Momma would say: EVERYTHING IN THIS LIFE COMES AT A PRICE AND BEFORE YOU ATTAIN IT YOU WILL PAY FOR IT IN FULL AND UP FRONT FIRST. Sometimes that price is being told what to do by someone who is 15 years your junior,senior, opposite sex, race or getting bamboozeled outta money cause you didnt know etc. Dose that hurt? Yes. So does being hungry,cold and eventually DEAD. Now........You choose. T
when you become the master,,then you will need loyal guards to protect you from the slaves,,,,hope you can sleep with one eye open for a long time.

Jimfrancisco | 11-05-2009 05:00 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 2007835) THE WEAK DONT BREED
Has anyone notified the starving regions of Africa of this? It may be important for them to know. TA, you should see a bit of the world.

Haltiat | 11-05-2009 05:16 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclad Lad (Post 2009560) Thanks-I'll try to find them at the library. But given that they were both military snipers,
That's dangerously close to the logical fallacy known as the appeal to authority. I chose Zaitsev and Hayha for specific reasons. They are famous and therefore easily researched, they each slew hundreds of the enemy in a matter of months and most importantly they were regular men. Hayha was a hunter, Zaitsev was a clerk. Magic fairy dust didn't make them what they were, they had the innate potential. Quote:
it still doesn't deal with the "fortress mentality" so common on this type of forum-as you put it, "static defenses".
Yes, it is ridiculous to think you can barricade yourself inside your house and be untouchable. If nothing else you'll be burned out. That is why, if you are capable, it makes more sense to hunt your hunters. Failing that a defense in depth strategy would be logical. The point is America is lousy with clerks and hunters who are competent marksmen and own a few hundred rounds of ammo. The Lord Humongous and his post-apocalyptic polities won't be able to run amok unless they are allowed to.

Haltiat | 11-05-2009 05:18 PM
Re: Some Ground Truth--The "Us" and the "Them" in a Societal Collapse Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimfrancisco (Post 2009865) Has anyone notified the starving regions of Africa of this? It may be important for them to know. TA, you should see a bit of the world.
It is the same anywhere. How many would survive if not for socialism? Socialists feed the productive to the non-productive. That is why our civilization is on the verge of failure.

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