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- - Kicking the battery discussion up a notch with NiFe (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=451225)

Ishkabibble | 02-25-2010 03:25 PM
Kicking the battery discussion up a notch with NiFe In many respects the nickel-iron battery was almost "too good." A battery that lasts for decades in many cases can outlast the equipment that it was originally designed to power. So from an economic standpoint lead acid, nickel-cadmium and other technologies have been deemed "good enough" and are the predominant technologies in use today even though they do not last as long as a nickel-iron counterpart. The nickel-iron battery (NiFe battery) is a storage battery having a nickel(III) oxide-hydroxide cathode and an iron anode, with an electrolyte of potassium hydroxide. The active materials are held in nickel-plated steel tubes or perforated pockets. In terms of energy density and cost, it is similar to a lithium-ion battery, although in terms of efficiency, self-discharge rate, and cell voltage, it is more similar to a nickel-metal hydride battery. It is a very robust battery which is tolerant of abuse, (overcharge, overdischarge, short-circuiting and thermal shock) and can have very long life even if so treated. It is often used in backup situations where it can be continuously charged and can last for more than 20 years. Its use has declined since production was halted by the destruction by fire of Edison's factory/laboratory in 1914 (13 separate "fireproof" concrete buildings)[6], due to low specific energy, poor charge retention (similar to nickel-metal hydride), and poor low-temperature performance, and its high cost of manufacture, comparable with the best sealed lead-acid batteries and under 1/2 the cost of nickel-metal hydride batteries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel-iron_battery http://69.89.31.193/~beutilit/images...felorenzen.jpg "Lorenzen has been scavenging used forklift batteries for almost 50 years, and his collection of the Edison cells � which work on an alkaline principle with an iron anode, a nickel oxide cathode, and a potassium hydroxide electrolyte � now totals over 140 units of sixty-plus amperes apiece. Some of the batteries are over 80 years old . . . yet it takes nothing more than regular addition of water and a supplement of potash every 15 years to keep them in good shape." I am aware of one supplier in the US. For coolness factor, note that they are off the grid, having converted to a solar array and these batteries years ago. http://www.beutilityfree.com/content...age&Itemid=129 Have questions? Here's their FAQ: http://www.beutilityfree.com/content...on%20Batteries

Saul Mine | 02-25-2010 08:56 PM
Re: Kicking the battery discussion up a notch with NiFe Lead-acid batteries will last much longer than you expect if you use a compensated charging controller. Commercial boats use them and the batteries normally last 10 to 20 years.

Fullpower | 02-26-2010 01:12 AM
Re: Kicking the battery discussion up a notch with NiFe NiFe Nickel Iron batteries have an abysmal efficiency factor, wasting fully HALF of all charging current poured into them. Read that again, and consider that any system or device operated with electricity from a Nickel Iron battery bank will immediately require DOUBLE the energy.

Ishkabibble | 02-26-2010 10:43 AM
Re: Kicking the battery discussion up a notch with NiFe Yes, the efficiency is poor, but there are things to consider. If you want to be functional off the grid, you need a reliable means of storing power for the long term. Where will you get replacement batteries or parts if SHTF big time? The batteries you have when SHTF have a lifespan that dictates how long you can rely on your solar power generation, for example. I'm all for lead-acid batteries in the right environment. The issue with them is that any environment where the winters dip 15 or more degrees below freezing is not the right environment... not if you aren't constantly topping them up. You want to be able to use your power, but if you drain the battery and it freezes, it's likely to split. There's also the matter of plate degradation. The more times you cycle a lead acid, the more worn it becomes. The bottom of the plate widens and sediment builds on the bottom. Eventually the electrodes connect and short out, killing the battery. There are deep cycle batteries designed to counter this, but they still suffer from the problem; they just endure longer. If you are looking for a long-term solution, NiFe holds many advantages. It is not subject to damage by freezing, overcharging, undercharging, or being left uncharged. It exhibits much less degredation from repeated cycling. The only real supply you need to recondition it is a bit of potash every 10-20 years. A few dollars of potash can provide the means to have your batteries last 60+ years, and it's easily stored. Product durability is one of the most important things about preparing for SHTF or TEOTWAWKI. Almost all of today's products have built in obselescence. They are built to endure for a set amount of time... and many can't endure rough conditions. Take a look at the lifespans for other rechargable power storage systems, and consider how their weaknesses might affect you. There may be no reason for concern, but if you don't think you can keep maintain ideal conditions, you might appreciate a battery that can withstand the unexpected.

Fullpower | 02-26-2010 12:58 PM
Re: Kicking the battery discussion up a notch with NiFe "Product durability is one of the most important things about preparing for SHTF or TEOTWAWKI. Almost all of today's products have built in obselescence. They are built to endure for a set amount of time... and many can't endure rough conditions. Take a look at the lifespans for other rechargable power storage systems, and consider how their weaknesses might affect you. There may be no reason for concern, but if you don't think you can keep maintain ideal conditions, you might appreciate a battery that can withstand the unexpected. Reply With Quote" > Good points there. I know of an installation that ran a 110 volt DC bank, fed with hydro power, supposedly in use since the early 1950's. Nickle Iron batteries. The owner has decommisioned the old Nickle irons, and has been using L16 lead-acid batteries for a decade now, and uses inverters for AC power. the NiFe are indeed durable and long lasting, but apparently, they didnt have low enough impedance which gives surge capacity to start refrigeration, table saw motors, and well pumps with inverters. Anyway, he still has over a hundred of these old railroad batteries, but is not using them. so they will probably still be around in another hundred years.

Saul Mine | 02-26-2010 08:41 PM
Re: Kicking the battery discussion up a notch with NiFe I have heard of AGM, Absorbed Glass Mat, which is said to eliminate most of the shortcomings of plain lead-acid batteries. When I studied these a few years ago there seemed to be three manufacturers with three completely different charging methods and no information about why they were different. Has anybody tried these?

Dave Thomas | 02-26-2010 10:17 PM
Re: Kicking the battery discussion up a notch with NiFe Quote:
Originally Posted by Saul Mine (Post 2201011) I have heard of AGM, Absorbed Glass Mat, which is said to eliminate most of the shortcomings of plain lead-acid batteries. When I studied these a few years ago there seemed to be three manufacturers with three completely different charging methods and no information about why they were different. Has anybody tried these?
The chemistry is the same as flooded lead acid. It should charge the same. But if I was building a large bank, I would want the luxury of monkeying with the electrolyte in case there were problems.

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