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- - Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=132875)

AlwaysWrite | 05-02-2007 03:45 PM
Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold Sorry if this has been posted - didn't see a topic discussing this (there aren't many numismatic topics at all it seems, just a lot of political junk)... Anyway, I've found a couple dealers now who sell Saints and $20 Liberties for the same as new 1 oz. Eagles. I even found one who sells old $10 Liberties for the same as new 1/2 Eagles (unfortunately, his prices on fractionals are pretty high, but $370 for a $10 Lib doesn't seem terrible). I used to collect coins when I was a kid - small stuff, I could never afford any gold for example - and I still have a certain yearning for the old coins ... they feel like history, and some are gorgeous. Now, I've just gotten started buying some bullion, and have been fighting the urge to buy the numismatic stuff. But, I have been leaning toward old halves and quarters when I can get them for less than 10x face (silver value), and just bought my first Saint (it's a beauty!) for the same as bullion. Does anyone have any thoughts on the semi-numismatic stuff? I guess my question is: is it better to buy one full ounce of new bullion, with the weight stamped right on the back ... or a historic, 100-year-old coin with slightly less gold (.9675 oz) for the same price? Is there ever a chance the older stuff will be worth more, or are they so common they'll always just be worth their gold value (if a common date and ungraded)? Vice versa, are the older coins actually worth less since they have a slightly lower melt value, and is it best to get all the gold you can for your $$$? (In that sense, one-ounce Krugerrands are probably the champions.) Thanks for your thoughts ... I hope to spur a little more action in the numismatic forum. PS: Is there a sub-forum for hot coin / PM deals? Or some other forum I should know about that has stuff like that? I love hearing about the various intro offers and special deals out there ... still waiting for the 10 1/10 oz Eagles under spot that I ordered last week...

aikitrader | 05-02-2007 04:10 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold Most (not all) on this forum are of the opinion that buying nuisimatic coins and or paying high premiums for bullion is a "no no". I am not one of them! I have plenty of nuisimatic coins that I buy for spot value give or take a little. I generally will not pay huge premiums for my nuisimatic coins. It has worked out well as I get an investment that can go up because of multiple reasons. 1. Rise in price of the bullion value of the coin. 2. Rise in value due to the nuisimatic value. 3. (Special circumstance here) Rise in value of the foreign currency to the USD. So...if you like that 100 year old coin and you are not paying a huge premium over spot for the coin and it will make you feel great and proud to have this coin. Then by all means, make the purchase!

CJul | 05-02-2007 04:12 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold If you like the older stuff, and you can get it at the same or 'similar' price, why not? Personally (I like in UK so don't know much about US coins) I like sovereigns and Austrian thalers. I also like lunars. So I buy some of each IF I CAN GET A GOOD PRICE. In my opinion (and it is just my opinion) don't spend TOO much on premiums. But other than that it is an endless debate, and I'm sure you are going to read a lot of it now ..... so buy what brings you pleasure. PS you are right. Nice to see a thread about actual coins!!!

CJul | 05-02-2007 04:14 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold Quote:
Originally Posted by aikitrader (Post 593934) Most (not all) on this forum are of the opinion that buying nuisimatic coins and or paying high premiums for bullion is a "no no". I am not one of them! I have plenty of nuisimatic coins that I buy for spot value give or take a little. I generally will not pay huge premiums for my nuisimatic coins. It has worked out well as I get an investment that can go up because of multiple reasons. 1. Rise in price of the bullion value of the coin. 2. Rise in value due to the nuisimatic value. 3. (Special circumstance here) Rise in value of the foreign currency to the USD. So...if you like that 100 year old coin and you are not paying a huge premium over spot for the coin and it will make you feel great and proud to have this coin. Then by all means, make the purchase!
exactly what I would have said if I could have put it so well. :beer:

Master_Ho | 05-02-2007 04:21 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold Quote:
Originally Posted by CJul (Post 593944) exactly what I would have said if I could have put it so well. :beer:
I'll spare you the huge - multi-writer re-post of all the old arguments on this topic (on which it got so repetative I just started cutting and pasting the whole damn thing, cause after about a year it got real old having the same conversation over and over) to say.......... What CJul said about aikitrader's post!!!

naccarato | 05-02-2007 05:21 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold I have bought graded ms62 st. gaudens for 40 bucks over spot, someone here has gotten them for 20 bucks over spot. If you can get them for that close to spot I would buy them if you don't have any. Most of my money is on bullion though, like 999 percent of it.

AlwaysWrite | 05-02-2007 05:40 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold Thanks for the thoughts ... a graded MS-62 Saint for $20 over? I'd take that deal! I think I will buy a few older coins if I can get them very close to spot or the same price as new Eagles. There's almost no downside, and I think it will bring me more enjoyment. It will also be nicer to pass down 130-year-old coins to the kids instead of 10-year-old coins. I guess the next question would be if any of you know any dealers who offer such prices on older coins ... especially if they're in So Cal. Thanks!

naccarato | 05-02-2007 05:49 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold It was negative1 who got that deal, 20 bucks plus a Krugg is what it cost him.

grapejelly | 05-06-2007 10:49 AM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysWrite (Post 594086) I think I will buy a few older coins if I can get them very close to spot or the same price as new Eagles. There's almost no downside, and I think it will bring me more enjoyment. It will also be nicer to pass down 130-year-old coins to the kids instead of 10-year-old coins. I guess the next question would be if any of you know any dealers who offer such prices on older coins ... especially if they're in So Cal. Thanks!
My logic also. I enjoy owning some older coins. I have some eagles and double eagles and also some sovereigns, all of which are older coins and fun to have. They may or may not have numismatic value. But they are worth their melt in any event, and premiums aren't a great deal higher than they are for some bullion coins such as new American Eagles or Mapleleafs.

Au_Ag | 05-06-2007 11:36 AM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysWrite (Post 594086) if I can get them very close to spot or the same price as new Eagles. There's almost no downside, and I think it will bring me more enjoyment.
The key here is if you can get them close to the same price and it brings you enjoyment. I like older things - so have picked up some sovereigns, gulders, marks and Fr francs. They're old, they have a sense of history, I like them, they're fractionals for very little over spot. That's got it down pretty good - if you're only paying a little more than spot and enjoy them - almost no downside, plenty of upside. To me, after a few years - bullion just gets boring.

Copperhead | 05-06-2007 12:56 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold Quote:
Originally Posted by Au_Ag (Post 598096) The key here is if you can get them close to the same price and it brings you enjoyment. I like older things - so have picked up some sovereigns, gulders, marks and Fr francs. They're old, they have a sense of history, I like them, they're fractionals for very little over spot. That's got it down pretty good - if you're only paying a little more than spot and enjoy them - almost no downside, plenty of upside. To me, after a few years - bullion just gets boring.
I'm not a gold guy, but if I decided to jump into the gold market I would pay a little over spot for some American history gold.

AlwaysWrite | 05-06-2007 01:37 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold Thanks for the thoughts - I just pulled the trigger on a couple $10 Liberties for just about spot. Can't go wrong, I figure. And, like many of you have said, once you already have a few GAEs, new ones aren't quite as interesting. I wonder if the older coins will sell for the same, less, or more than modern bullion. For example, could I get as much for a circ $10 Lib (older, but slightly less AU in it) as for a 1/2 GAE?

AuNuggets | 05-06-2007 02:54 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold Definition of "Semi-Numismatic"......... Not scarce enough to be desireable by real collectors, but something we can charge some premium for from the suckers who think "old = rare".

Au_Ag | 05-06-2007 05:55 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysWrite (Post 593915) just a lot of political junk)...... Thanks for your thoughts ......
Off Topic!! Hey, AlwaysWrite - not probably the thoughts you wanna hear - but - I will grant you that a great deal of the political junk needs to be filtered - sometimes heavily. There does seem to be a number of radical, anti-government, anti- everything folks around here. Even so, there are some real golden gems within the rough stones. Okay so maybe they will require you to change some of your thinking - but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I never will forget - even after I had been hanging around here a while- I was surprised to see Scorpio post "all markets are manipulated" - when you have some time to think about it, and look at it critically - it's pretty easy to see. Once you take the red pill there's no turning back.

grapejelly | 05-06-2007 07:13 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold http://www.users.bigpond.com/cruzi/c...tm?goldval=689 is a helpful site...

naccarato | 05-06-2007 07:25 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold That is a GREAT site for Gold coin prices, thanks grapejelly. I'm allways wondering what some of my European and "Semi-numimatic" coins are exactly worth in Gold, now I know.

grapejelly | 05-06-2007 07:34 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold Quote:
Originally Posted by naccarato (Post 598406) That is a GREAT site for Gold coin prices, thanks grapejelly. I'm allways wondering what some of my European and "Semi-numimatic" coins are exactly worth in Gold, now I know.
I would love one for silver coins...

TomD | 05-06-2007 08:00 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold 1 Attachment(s) Definitely get some European fractionals from the turn of the 19th century. So many of them were made that the premium is close to zero above spot and the coins are very nice. Sovereigns, francs, schillings. Here's a picture of an Austrian Olympic 1/2 oz gold coin that I got for right at spot.

lhslancers | 05-06-2007 08:40 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold I love the old US Gold coins. If you can get them close to spot they are a decent deal. When spot was $672 a couple of weeks ago this is what I found at my local dealer. These prices were close to what APMEX was charging at the time but I have no idea what those coins looked like. For $10 Libs he wanted $350 for XF and said the melt was $325. The MS 60's were $370. He also mentioned that the spread on these coins versus straight bullion US Eagles has gone down since Gold has increased the last few years. I don't know whether this trend continues but the implication is that as Gold rallies these coins will not do any better than bullion. All that aside there is something about holding a coin that is over 100 years old. I thought the XF 40's looked pretty good actually. :wink:

Master_Ho | 05-06-2007 09:54 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold Quote:
Originally Posted by lhslancers (Post 598475) He also mentioned that the spread on these coins versus straight bullion US Eagles has gone down since Gold has increased the last few years. I don't know whether this trend continues but the implication is that as Gold rallies these coins will not do any better than bullion. All that aside there is something about holding a coin that is over 100 years old. I thought the XF 40's looked pretty good actually. :wink:
Again - what I am about to say is what I have heard or read - and I read a lot of articles, many about numismatics and semi-numismatics.........but what I have heard (so I am not going to be responible) is that a lot of people started selling these semi-numismatic coins when the 24 kt gold Buffalos first came out to buy them, because they figured the new Buffalos would go up more in value - then came the 20th Anniversary gold and silver coins, and more older semi-numismatics were dumped for the same reason. What many of the coin people think is that, these semi-numismatic gold coins are very under-priced right now because the market suddenly got swamped with them as people "traded in" for the newer coins they thought would be worth more - but that, down the road, as gold prices go up and the general public starts to buy in - that the prices on these coins will, once again, recover......going back up to where they were and more because the demand will be there. Its all about supply and demand........its another Tao thing! So I continue to buy the older coins as close to spot as I can when I can find those deal.....can't hurt any more than buying the new Eagles and MIGHT go up in value down the road (cause, unlike the newer eagles, they can not mint more)........and, as you said, a bit more interesting to hold a coin with some real history! :emotions16:

lhslancers | 05-06-2007 09:59 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho (Post 598536) Again - what I am about to say is what I have heard or read - and I read a lot of articles, many about numismatics and semi-numismatics.........but what I have heard (so I am not going to be responible) is that a lot of people started selling these semi-numismatic coins when the 24 kt gold Buffalos first came out to buy them, because they figured the new Buffalos would go up more in value - then came the 20th Anniversary gold and silver coins, and more older semi-numismatics were dumped for the same reason. What many of the coin people think is that, these semi-numismatic gold coins are very under-priced right now because the market suddenly got swamped with them as people "traded in" for the newer coins they thought would be worth more - but that, down the road, as gold prices go up and the general public starts to buy in - that the prices on these coins will, once again, recover......going back up to where they were and more because the demand will be there. Its all about supply and demand........its another Tao thing! So I continue to buy the older coins as close to spot as I can when I can find those deal.....can't hurt any more than buying the new Eagles and MIGHT go up in value down the road (cause, unlike the newer eagles, they can not mint more)........and, as you said, a bit more interesting to hold a coin with some real history! :emotions16:
That would seem to make sense. Thanks for pointing that out.

AlwaysWrite | 05-06-2007 11:11 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold Quote:
Originally Posted by Au_Ag (Post 598315) Off Topic!! Hey, AlwaysWrite - not probably the thoughts you wanna hear - but - ... Once you take the red pill there's no turning back.
Believe me, I think it's fine if people want to debate politics. Me, I have no use for politics, and have debated them all I care to, and would rather talk about coins, gold, and silver - hence why I came to "goldismoney.info," not "debatepolitics.info." And I know things are manipulated and the public doesn't know a lot of what goes on (don't even get me STARTED on the CPI farce), but I also don't want to listen to some Internet conspiracy theorist babble about how he thinks the Holocaust was made up. Listening to stuff like that makes me dumber, not smarter. I come on here to learn, not argue with nuts. I was just saying I like to see people talk about coins - much more interesting to me. Quote:
Originally Posted by grapejelly (Post 598388) http://www.users.bigpond.com/cruzi/c...tm?goldval=689 is a helpful site...
Great site - thanks for sharing! Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets (Post 598204) Definition of "Semi-Numismatic"......... Not scarce enough to be desireable by real collectors, but something we can charge some premium for from the suckers who think "old = rare".
I'm sure some suckers pay more, but if you know what you're doing and you get old gold for less than the price of new Eagles, I just don't feel like a sucker... if I can get "the most AU for least $$$" AND happen to get a 100-year-old coin in the bargain, so much the better. Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho (Post 598536) So I continue to buy the older coins as close to spot as I can when I can find those deal.....can't hurt any more than buying the new Eagles and MIGHT go up in value down the road (cause, unlike the newer eagles, they can not mint more)........and, as you said, a bit more interesting to hold a coin with some real history! :emotions16:
Agree 100%. Part of this investment/hobby is to enjoy your purchase, and maybe learn a little history. I like having the old St. Gaudens coins ... I'll never have a sculpture by a Renaissance Italian master in my living room, but I can hold a work of art embossed on a $20 gold coin. And I paid less than a 1 oz GAE. I also bought a couple of $10 Libs for a fair amount less than 1/2 oz GAEs. Like you say, at WORST they are worth bullion later, and I paid VERY close to spot for them. At best, they go up in value over and above the bullion content at some point - maybe there are good prices now due to a current glut of them and the premiums will go up later. Or, I hand them down to my kids, and can pass down 100-year-old coins instead of 10-year-old bullion issues. Thanks for all the responses! :beer:

j-son | 05-18-2007 09:56 PM
Re: Bullion vs. semi-numismatic gold how about just buy krands like everyone else in the world? http://goldismoney.info/forums/vbcla...hp?do=ad&id=37

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