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- - How much "cleaning" can I do (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=205815)

TomD | 11-28-2007 04:42 PM
How much "cleaning" can I do I've got a sovereign that I want to shoot so I want for it to look it's best. It's 1907 uncirculated and in pretty good shape, that's why I chose this one but it would look a lot brighter if I hit it with a polish. I know that's heresy though. What can I do to it to brighten it up that doesn't fall under the definition of the C word, soap and water? I've got an ultrasonic jewellery cleaner. Even if I do clean this particular coin, what have I lost, $3? Apmex is selling sovereigns for melt plus $3.

Master_Ho | 11-28-2007 04:58 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 850028) I've got a sovereign that I want to shoot so I want for it to look it's best. It's 1907 uncirculated and in pretty good shape, that's why I chose this one but it would look a lot brighter if I hit it with a polish. I know that's heresy though. What can I do to it to brighten it up that doesn't fall under the definition of the C word, soap and water? I've got an ultrasonic jewellery cleaner. Even if I do clean this particular coin, what have I lost, $3? Apmex is selling sovereigns for melt plus $3.
For $3 bucks - and to take a desired picture - I'd say, go ahead........I have a dip I got from my coin dealer freinds - tho I use it on my chains, not my coins - but they have used it on a few coins and they have even gotten graded!!!! ((Sssshhh.........don't tell!))

goldminer | 11-28-2007 06:34 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do You want it shiney? I say clean it. If it's not in terrible shape soak it in some white vinegar for a couple days followed by a fifteen minutes or so soak in a solution of liquid dish detergent (that has a degreaser) & warm water. Then very gently pat it with a detergent & warm water soaked soft cloth and pat it dry. Should look good.

Silver Gorilla | 11-29-2007 09:19 AM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 850028) I've got a sovereign that I want to shoot so I want for it to look it's best. It's 1907 uncirculated and in pretty good shape, that's why I chose this one but it would look a lot brighter if I hit it with a polish. I know that's heresy though. What can I do to it to brighten it up that doesn't fall under the definition of the C word, soap and water? I've got an ultrasonic jewellery cleaner. Even if I do clean this particular coin, what have I lost, $3? Apmex is selling sovereigns for melt plus $3.
TomD if its a george v gold sovereign dont clean it. Soap and water are the only way to lightly clean it, There gos the C word.:D

TomD | 11-29-2007 01:28 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Well, in which case I will post some shots of a pristine sovereign in the next couple of days.

Anty Ep | 11-29-2007 03:10 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do so whats a good dip or cleaner the only thing I have used is ms 70. not very harsh. http://www.brent-krueger.com/cleaners.html

Master_Ho | 11-29-2007 04:31 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 851468) so whats a good dip or cleaner the only thing I have used is ms 70. not very harsh. http://www.brent-krueger.com/cleaners.html
My coin people all use E-Z-Est coin cleaner.........dip for two second, and submerge coin into a little water with baking soda to neutralize it.......and they have done that, submitted coins and they HAVE been graded by both PCGS and NGC.

Bob | 11-29-2007 05:52 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do You might try asking this over at cointalk. They probably have a lot of ideas, just be aware they'll jump all over you for cleaning a coin :). Hell, you can probably just search their forum instead and avoid getting jumped on.

Master_Ho | 11-29-2007 06:14 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 851696) You might try asking this over at cointalk. They probably have a lot of ideas, just be aware they'll jump all over you for cleaning a coin :). Hell, you can probably just search their forum instead and avoid getting jumped on.
Hi Bob - Just so we are clear about this - I am totally against cleaning a collector's or numismatic coin..........normally I would never do that........... But in the case of a coin that's only worth $3 over the bullion price - and where TomD wants to take a picture - in THAT case, I don't think its too much of a problem......... Personally, I do not clean ANY coins - not worn Morgans or Peace Dollars, ntto gold coins - not even bullion..........but an exception of a coin with only a $3 premium is not a big deal. Cheers!

Lackluster | 11-29-2007 06:36 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do I don't know anything about anything. Why exactly is cleaning a coin so bad?

Master_Ho | 11-29-2007 06:49 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by Lackluster (Post 851754) I don't know anything about anything. Why exactly is cleaning a coin so bad?
FROM A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT FILES (NOT MY WORDS) - HOPE THIS HELPS! Cleaned: a coin that has dirt or toning removed with a cleaning agent. Cleaning ranges from light to severe, depending on what is used to clean the coin. Cleaning may disqualify a coin from being certified. TIP: leave cleaning to the professionals, as cleaning generally lowers the collector value of a coin. Rubbing a Proof coin, even lightly, with a cloth can produce minute hairlines, and cleaning with a paste or substance which is even slightly abrasive can cause severe hairlines. Careless handling of a Proof coin can cause nicks or marks.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p>Curated: a recently developed term to describe coins that have been cleaned, but where the cleaning has been so light and well done that it is impossible to tell. Curation will not disqualify a coin from being certified. Professional numismatists have made a distinction between dipping and "cleaning." Today, in the 1990s, dipping is practiced infrequently, but, as noted, years ago it was a popular procedure. <o:p></o:p> A lightly toned silver coin, if immersed in a clear liquid silver dip, carefully rinsed, neutralized in a solution of baking soda and water (without the application of any friction or rubbing), and then carefully dried by patting, will have its original mint brilliance restored. If a Proof coin is dipped once or twice, chances are that there will be no problem. If a Proof coin is dipped multiple times, gradually the mirror surface will become hazy and cloudy, and the value will be impaired. James F. Ruddy's Photograde book discusses this and other considerations in detail.<o:p></o:p> Uncirculated business strike coins possessing lustrous surfaces can be dipped multiple times without apparent adverse effects, for the microscopic ridges which cause mint lustre tend to mask the effects of the clouding, but if a piece is dipped too many times, it will become dull and unattractive. <o:p></o:p> In my opinion dipping of a silver coin should be done only if the piece is toned in blotches, is spotted, or is unattractive. If a coin possesses attractive patination it should not be dipped. Dipping of a copper and bronze coin almost always results in lessening the value of the piece. <o:p></o:p> Whether a piece should be dipped or not is a matter of opinion, and there are arguments on both sides of the fence. <o:p></o:p> Less in question is the procedure of removing dirt, oil, grease, and other contaminants from a coin's surface by using plain soap and water, acetone (obtainable at drugstores; acetone is inflammable and must be used with great caution under well ventilated circumstances), ammonia (which may discolor copper coins but not silver and gold issues), or other solvents. In general, my advice is not to use a solvent or any other substance on a valuable coin unless you have experimented with inexpensive pieces first. <o:p></o:p> In the negative category are various processes which can be described as "cleaning." This term is normally not used to describe pieces which have been dipped or which have had dirt removed by the use of solvents. Rather, "cleaning" refers to the use of jewelers' pastes, polishes, pastes made of baking soda and water, and other methods which use friction or a combination of friction and chemicals to remove metal from a coin's surface. Shortly after the turn of the century Farran Zerbe visited the National Coin Collection on view at the Philadelphia Mint and reported to readers of The Numismatist that the silver coins had been cleaned multiple times with jewelers' paste, thus considerably lessening their value <o:p></o:p> </o:p>

Blue Midnight | 11-29-2007 07:42 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do How about old pour silver bars. Is it OK to shine em up?

Krugerrand | 11-29-2007 08:24 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Midnight (Post 851876) How about old pour silver bars. Is it OK to shine em up?
TomD has actually in the past posted a couple of pics of a 100-oz silver bar that was filthy, which he then cleaned up to a nice shine. I'll see if I can find it... Here we go: http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...08&postcount=1 I definitely think in that case, the cleaning was a good move. :bear_tongue:

Master_Ho | 11-29-2007 08:41 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Midnight (Post 851876) How about old pour silver bars. Is it OK to shine em up?
Sure - thats not a problem!

Bob | 11-29-2007 09:39 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho (Post 851724) Hi Bob - Just so we are clear about this - I am totally against cleaning a collector's or numismatic coin..........normally I would never do that........... But in the case of a coin that's only worth $3 over the bullion price - and where TomD wants to take a picture - in THAT case, I don't think its too much of a problem......... Personally, I do not clean ANY coins - not worn Morgans or Peace Dollars, ntto gold coins - not even bullion..........but an exception of a coin with only a $3 premium is not a big deal. Cheers!
Well, I agree with everything you said, but it sounded like Tom was mainly interested in something that was a "safe" cleaning. He was asking about dipping which is generally an accepted cleaning. The guys at cointalk probably would have an idea on those safe cleanings.

Master_Ho | 11-29-2007 10:09 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 852017) Well, I agree with everything you said, but it sounded like Tom was mainly interested in something that was a "safe" cleaning. He was asking about dipping which is generally an accepted cleaning. The guys at cointalk probably would have an idea on those safe cleanings.
Thats why I told him what my con dealer friends dip in and how to do it........

Paranoid Android | 11-29-2007 10:44 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by goldminer (Post 850208) You want it shiney? I say clean it.
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/S...y___Shelly.jpg Don't do it TomD! Cleaning coins is Bad! Bad, bad, bad! oh ok, I guess it's ok to dip it if you really must... But... if you do any abrasive cleaning, you will be haunted by the ghosts of a million coin collectors. :hissyfit_m:

Master_Ho | 11-29-2007 11:15 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid Android (Post 852083) Don't do it TomD! Cleaning coins is Bad! Bad, bad, bad! oh ok, I guess it's ok to dip it if you really must... But... if you do any abrasive cleaning, you will be haunted by the ghosts of a million coin collectors.
I'll go beat the stuffing outta him!! :wink:

Bob | 11-29-2007 11:55 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho (Post 852043) Thats why I told him what my con dealer friends dip in and how to do it........
And I just suggested the cointalk place because they probably have a lotta good advice too. They just get very uppity on cleaning is all I said. Anyways, sounds like we're in perfect agreement anyways...

Master_Ho | 11-30-2007 12:10 AM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 852173) And I just suggested the cointalk place because they probably have a lotta good advice too. They just get very uppity on cleaning is all I said. Anyways, sounds like we're in perfect agreement anyways...
Yes we are..........if he cleans instead of dipping it - you can come help me kick the stuffing outta him!!!! :D NOTE - TomD and are are phone buddies.......he's a great guy!

Reno Chris | 11-30-2007 01:26 AM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Cleaning bullion value coins, thats no problem. Just dont clean coins with significant numismatic (coin collector) value. Chris

Anty Ep | 11-30-2007 09:27 AM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do well I have dipped some coppers in ms 70 and then they looked like hell when they were done. their color was back to "red" but a dull red not a bright or shiny red. this was experimental so it was no loss. i also dipped 90% for a little bit and the result was good but too long and it removes all the antiquing which it too much and obvious. oddly the coins which I thought responded best to that particular solution were the nickels including 35% ag nickels the thing is, the dipping does not necessarily restore luster.

The Great Ag | 12-01-2007 11:07 AM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do I prefer not to clean coins, but I have done it in the past. I purchased a St. Gaudens that was in AU condition but had a black mark on Liberty's thigh. A little cleaning and the coin looked immensely better! I will say, I did not clean the entire coin just the mark, so the fields still maintained their patina. Who wants an ugly coin? The Great Ag

TomD | 12-01-2007 02:46 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do I went ahead and cleaned the sovereign to prep it for a photo shoot. Ironically, the sovereign that I thought was UC isn't. The cleaning made clear a host of little gouges, nicks, scrapes, pits, etc, etc. The coin is worthless for photography. Blast! And that is my best sovereign.

Krugerrand | 12-02-2007 04:41 AM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 854299) I went ahead and cleaned the sovereign to prep it for a photo shoot. Ironically, the sovereign that I thought was UC isn't. The cleaning made clear a host of little gouges, nicks, scrapes, pits, etc, etc. The coin is worthless for photography. Blast! And that is my best sovereign.
Shux! Well, at least you've still got a gold sovereign. :wink:

<SLV> | 12-08-2007 06:09 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Try MS-70. Apply with a Q-tip and massage coin until clean. Rinse, rinse, rinse - the stuff is slimy. It works great, though, WITHOUT scratching or even removing toning.

gold-finger | 12-08-2007 10:00 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do In the past I have used three forms of cleaning for gold bullion coins: (1) Soap and warm water. (2) Boiling in water + washing up liquid (30 min). (3) Submersion in bleach (for several days). Method (1) is efficient and fast if the coin is not very dirty, but e.g. just greasy from touching. Method (2) is good if you have an older coin, say a Sovereign, and you want to get the dirt out of the deeper rills etc. Make sure you don't scratch the coin (by plunging it into the kettle), and don't ever let all the water evaporate. Method (3) I have used to get rid of red spots from copper inclusions on Sovereigns. This has worked very well in two occasions. In other occasions, I just submerged the coin to make it shinier. This also worked well. The only case where a problem occured is with one particular coin (Sovereign) where the brightness of the surface has changed in some areas. I still wonder how this could happen, and in the beginnign I thought I had found a fake (but I don't think that anymore, although I have not tested the coin). Has anyone any ideas on this? I should possibly post a picture of this coin.

TomD | 12-09-2007 09:40 AM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by gold-finger (Post 865630) In the past I have used three forms of cleaning for gold bullion coins: (1) Soap and warm water. (2) Boiling in water + washing up liquid (30 min). (3) Submersion in bleach (for several days). Method (1) is efficient and fast if the coin is not very dirty, but e.g. just greasy from touching. Method (2) is good if you have an older coin, say a Sovereign, and you want to get the dirt out of the deeper rills etc. Make sure you don't scratch the coin (by plunging it into the kettle), and don't ever let all the water evaporate. Method (3) I have used to get rid of red spots from copper inclusions on Sovereigns. This has worked very well in two occasions. In other occasions, I just submerged the coin to make it shinier. This also worked well. The only case where a problem occured is with one particular coin (Sovereign) where the brightness of the surface has changed in some areas. I still wonder how this could happen, and in the beginnign I thought I had found a fake (but I don't think that anymore, although I have not tested the coin). Has anyone any ideas on this? I should possibly post a picture of this coin.
I'd like to see a picture. Chlorine, the active part of bleach, is very active chemically. I'll bet it reacted with some impurity in the sovereign.

Potter | 12-09-2007 10:29 AM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Unless your coins are kulls or less than grade EF {extremely fine}, DON'T CLEAN YOUR COINS! You are destroying their value. I saw a 1897 Morgan at a flea market last year that should have graded MS-63, but the idiot had dipped it, and this hurt the value of the coin some. When I asked him why he had done it, he said the coin was several shades of purple, blue and gold. He wanted it to be white as snow {even though it was'nt}. I could have smack him upside the head right there and them. This holds true for gold coins too, cleaning them will forever hurt the coin. I know, cleaning coins is becoming acceptable among some, but most of the gradeing services still frown on it, and will note on the holder in large print; CLEANED, along with a big hit to the grade. I'll say it once more for the benefit of everyone: DON'T CLEAN YOUR COINS! {please}.

gold-finger | 12-09-2007 11:30 AM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Potter (Post 866065) I'll say it once more for the benefit of everyone: DON'T CLEAN YOUR COINS! {please}.
Potter, I appreciate your advice. I should say all coins I have are bullion only, with no numismatic value whatsoever. Most coins I buy are either heavily scratched or used when I get them (like Sovereigns, Maples or Krugerrands). I buy them for their gold content only. Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 866021) I'd like to see a picture. Chlorine, the active part of bleach, is very active chemically. I'll bet it reacted with some impurity in the sovereign.
Here are a few pictures I have just taken. My camera is not very good, but the stain is clearly visible. I first thought something had dried on it, but I tried to clean the stain, and it wasn't possible. I guess the coin is scrap now. :banghead:

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TomD | 12-09-2007 02:18 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by gold-finger (Post 866139) Potter, I appreciate your advice. I should say all coins I have are bullion only, with no numismatic value whatsoever. Most coins I buy are either heavily scratched or used when I get them (like Sovereigns, Maples or Krugerrands). I buy them for their gold content only. Here are a few pictures I have just taken. My camera is not very good, but the stain is clearly visible. I first thought something had dried on it, but I tried to clean the stain, and it wasn't possible. I guess the coins is scrap now. :banghead:
There is a definite mark like a high water mark running across the coin. Was the coin totally submersed or partially? Chlorine does not react with gold but that is almost certainly a reaction with some other impurity. Probably not copper because copper compounds tend to turn blue.

gold-finger | 12-09-2007 02:56 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 866328) There is a definite mark like a high water mark running across the coin. Was the coin totally submersed or partially? Chlorine does not react with gold but that is almost certainly a reaction with some other impurity. Probably not copper because copper compounds tend to turn blue.
High water mark -- that's what I first thought. So I submersed it for another two days (and made sure it was totally, although I think it was so before), but nothing would change. I also tried to clean it with water & soap afterwards, to no avail. The back side of the coin is absolutely fine, by the way. As I said, on other occasions, the bleach would just make the coin shinier, or even remove red copper spots. In this case, however, it really went wrong.

TomD | 12-09-2007 02:59 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by gold-finger (Post 866369) High water mark -- that's what I first thought. So I submersed it for another two days (and made sure it was totally, although I think it was so before), but nothing would change. I also tried to clean it with water & soap afterwards, to no avail. As I said, on other occasions, the bleach would just make the coin shinier, or even remove red copper spots. In this case, however, it really went wrong.
In for a penny, in for a pound, have you tried a light abrasive cleaner? As you said, bullion only, it's still worth .2356 oz of gold.

electric-amish | 12-09-2007 03:15 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do I don't have collectable coins so be kind. I've cleaned Franklin halfs with Tooth Paste on my fingers and then soaked in hot water and patted dry. They get shiney. E-A

gold-finger | 12-09-2007 03:29 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 866375) In for a penny, in for a pound, have you tried a light abrasive cleaner? As you said, bullion only, it's still worth .2356 oz of gold.
Alright, I've now used some sink cleaner (like "Mr Clean"). It turned black/blue (being yellow) as if the stain was containing copper (I know this effect of the cleaner turning dark on brass). The outcome is shown below (the images not so good this time, the once AFTER cleaning are marked with an "R"). It mostly came off, I did not wan to overdo it. I also only treated the stain itself. I could have done the whole surface, to get a more consistent outcome, I guess. But it looks better, in my opinion. Thanks, Tom.

Highbanker | 12-09-2007 07:39 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do It's a 1/4 oz sovereign....jeez...use muriatic acid if you want...its a bullion coin. I clean all my bullion....if it needs it... But...and this is a big but...I don't buy numismatic stuff...why bother??? The US Dollar is getting ready to kick the bucket....Iran stopped pricing oil in Dollars....Venezuela is about to flood the world with cheap oil.... Wake up people....clean it , bend it, just keep buying it...silver too... Look for 4-5 dollar gas in the NEAR future... Sorry for the rant......Start NOW establishing small groups of like minded folks.. Buy a frickin' short wave radio...We are going to be taxed into the stone age by gas prices...

Highbanker | 12-09-2007 07:41 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do BTW....the flaw on your sovereign is a planchette flaw....has to do with the way the planchette was made IMO...no such thing as a "water mark".

gold-finger | 12-09-2007 08:10 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Quote:
Originally Posted by Highbanker (Post 866805) BTW....the flaw on your sovereign is a planchette flaw....has to do with the way the planchette was made IMO...no such thing as a "water mark".
Yes, quite obviously it was something 'in the material', that was brought up by the bleach. Still wonder exactly what chemical process might have been behind this.

photodog | 12-10-2007 05:14 PM
Re: How much "cleaning" can I do Hmmm, maybe that Mother's aluminum polish *cough* that I use on bicycle parts would work well. (:>)

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