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Old Blue | 08-16-2008 08:51 PM
TOR on Sacagawea dollars? I know that Sacagawea dollars are much maligned among serious collectors. However, maybe someone could still explain to me what the tiny engraving TOR means on the reverse. You can find it just to the right of the R in dollar.

Cassius | 08-16-2008 09:19 PM
Re: TOR on Sacagawea dollars? It's actually TDR, which are the initials of the designer of the reverse of the coin, US Mint sculptor/engraver Thomas D. Rogers, Sr.

Old Blue | 08-16-2008 09:51 PM
Re: TOR on Sacagawea dollars? Thanks. I appreciate that. Now I have to ask why the obverse doesn't have a miniscule GG somewhere??? Doesn't Glenna Goodacre merit everlasting recognition?? :(

Cassius | 08-16-2008 10:23 PM
Re: TOR on Sacagawea dollars? No, the older Sacagawea coins had a GG mark on them. Apparently they are changing the reverse design every year now, or something like that.

Scratchmo | 08-30-2008 03:07 AM
Re: TOR on Sacagawea dollars? Those tiny initials actually mean quite a lot to me. I was very close to getting my initials on that piece, but I think Hillary wanted her buddy to do it.:banghead: So goes it, but it is nice to see that Lady Liberty has FINALLY re-appeared on a circulating coin although it's on the reverse. usflag (presidential dollars) I came in second or third place in the reverse design competition, and was actually paid to submit designs. :beer: Even though it didn't work out for me, the experience was priceless. I still hold Tom Rogers in the highest regard. :adore: Too bad the Mint couldn't hang on to him. :stupid: That seems to be a problem down there. Most artists (me included) couldn't stand doing a government job. :shot: The private sector is so much more fun :yippee:(and more lucrative :deal:). ie. If I want to create something, it doesn't take a literal act of congress to do it. Getting off-base here, but had to get that off my chest. :embarasse I love those smilies.:laugh:

jedemdasseine | 08-30-2008 03:27 AM
Re: TOR on Sacagawea dollars? Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratchmo (Post 1261785) Those tiny initials actually mean quite a lot to me. I was very close to getting my initials on that piece, but I think Hillary wanted her buddy to do it.:banghead: So goes it, but it is nice to see that Lady Liberty has FINALLY re-appeared on a circulating coin although it's on the reverse. usflag (presidential dollars) I came in second or third place in the reverse design competition, and was actually paid to submit designs. :beer: Even though it didn't work out for me, the experience was priceless. I still hold Tom Rogers in the highest regard. :adore: Too bad the Mint couldn't hang on to him. :stupid: That seems to be a problem down there. Most artists (me included) couldn't stand doing a government job. :shot: The private sector is so much more fun :yippee:(and more lucrative :deal:). ie. If I want to create something, it doesn't take a literal act of congress to do it. Getting off-base here, but had to get that off my chest. :embarasse I love those smilies.:laugh:
Interesting. How did you get involved in all this? As an artist? Sculptor? Designer? Numismatist? Thanks for sharing. :)

Scratchmo | 08-30-2008 04:42 AM
Re: TOR on Sacagawea dollars? Jedem, I am a numismatic designer and engraver. I was first invited to create designs by then ANA President, Ken Bressett. His project, "Peace 2000" was to try to get all the nations in the world to produce at least one circulating coin in the year 2000 to carry the word "PEACE". Ambitious to say the least. I worked closely with Rep. Castle's aide to create prototypes of a golden dollar coin that had a classic liberty head obverse with traditional eagle reverse with a "peace" theme throughout and the word on the reverse. I later made another prototype of Castle's choosing using a statue of Liberty design by Mint engraver Mike Ferrell pulled from the Mint's circular file. The prototypes were distributed to about 50 congressmen as an illustration of what the coin could be. If it were entirely up to Castle, my design would have been put into production and I have a video tape of him on the House floor saying as much. According to many, the prototype "sold" the legislation which had been shot down many times since the discontinuation of the SBA dollar. The "golden dollar" passed in an omnibus bill that included the State Quarter program, among other things. Later, I spoke to the design committee hearing to sell the case for returning Miss Liberty to our circulating coins. My speech was very well received (standing ovation from several) from the audience of mostly numismatists. There were about 10 or 15 other speakers with as many suggestions, but as soon as the word Sacagawea was even whispered, the committee then turned all focus on that. I think the hearing was just a smoke screen to make people think they could actually have a say in the matter, but as I read it in a numismatic article (can't remember the author) "As soon as Hillary pulled the string to unveil the new design, it became apparent who had been pulling the strings all along" Politicians don't want to listen to numismatists concerning coin designs. They've even done away with the position of Chief Engraver, because they know more about designing coins than engravers do. No, I'm not bitter.

Scratchmo | 08-30-2008 05:06 AM
Re: TOR on Sacagawea dollars? BTW, the design committee I mentioned above UNANIMOUSLY approved the word 'peace' be included on the reverse of the new coin, but where is it? Another smoke screen apparently. Hundreds of man-hours later, thousands of out-of-pocket money later, and two years of playing politics later, my efforts remain a mere footnote in numismatic history. (and no, I didn't vote for Hillary) Still, it WAS a great life experience.

jedemdasseine | 08-30-2008 05:41 AM
Re: TOR on Sacagawea dollars? Again, thanks for sharing. :) You've quite the scoop! It's always annoyed me that there is no longer a Chief Engraver. And it more than annoys me that anymore, coin designs merely fulfill a perfunctory role and genuine numismatic interests are only represented in a desultory manner. Obfuscatory political motivations have completely usurped the intended purposes of coin design. No, I'm not bitter, either. Regardless, welcome to GIM. :)

RossL | 08-30-2008 07:48 PM
Re: TOR on Sacagawea dollars? Quote:
Originally Posted by jedemdasseine (Post 1261828) Again, thanks for sharing. :) You've quite the scoop! It's always annoyed me that there is no longer a Chief Engraver. And it more than annoys me that anymore, coin designs merely fulfill a perfunctory role and genuine numismatic interests are only represented in a desultory manner. Obfuscatory political motivations have completely usurped the intended purposes of coin design. No, I'm not bitter, either. Regardless, welcome to GIM. :)
Dead presidents on coins REALLY annoy me too. :thumpdown

Twisted Avatar | 08-30-2008 07:57 PM
Re: TOR on Sacagawea dollars? Wow that is amazing............ GIM continues to pull in nothing but the most talented..... Dam impressive. T

Scratchmo | 08-30-2008 08:57 PM
Re: TOR on Sacagawea dollars? Thanks for letting me vent. Most of the story has been told in the numismatic press, a piece at a time over the course about a year or so, and my prototypes were shown on the covers of most major numismatic publications, but very few people know who did it or understand how extensive my (our) involvement was in the creation of the coin. I'm just disappointed they didn't pull the dollar bill like Canada did. If that would have happened, the coin would actually circulate, and save us lots of money in production costs of the dollar unit over the course of 20-30 years. The looney works real good up there and the people love it.

The Great Ag | 09-01-2008 09:01 AM
Re: TOR on Sacagawea dollars? Hey, Scratchmo: Welcome to GIM, and thanks for the story. If you have time, can you post pics of your design. I would surely love to see what could have been. :sigh: The designs that are created today are dismal. The Great Ag

Scratchmo | 09-01-2008 07:09 PM
Re: TOR on Sacagawea dollars? Go to this website to see initial designs. Please don't mind the 1995 version. The 1998 version was the one originally submitted to Castle, then the statue of Liberty version was the one created for congress. http://www.smalldollars.com/dollar/page17.html on this next page shows my Sacagawea design. Of course, it was not selected so I used it for the ANA exhibitors medal for the Portland convention Thanks for your interest. http://www.smalldollars.com/dollar/page20.html

Twisted Avatar | 09-01-2008 07:16 PM
Re: TOR on Sacagawea dollars? Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratchmo (Post 1265048) Go to this website to see initial designs. Please don't mind the 1995 version. The 1998 version was the one originally submitted to Castle, then the statue of Liberty version was the one created for congress. http://www.smalldollars.com/dollar/page17.html on this next page shows my Sacagawea design. Of course, it was not selected so I used it for the ANA exhibitors medal for the Portland convention Thanks for your interest. http://www.smalldollars.com/dollar/page20.html
HOLY SMOKES!!!!!......... THAT DESIGN IS ABSOLUTELY BREATH TAKING!!! :applause_:applause_:applause_:applause_:applause_ :applause_:applause_:applause_:applause_:applause_ :applause_:applause_:applause_

The Great Ag | 09-01-2008 09:11 PM
Re: TOR on Sacagawea dollars? Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratchmo (Post 1265048) Go to this website to see initial designs. Please don't mind the 1995 version. The 1998 version was the one originally submitted to Castle, then the statue of Liberty version was the one created for congress. http://www.smalldollars.com/dollar/page17.html on this next page shows my Sacagawea design. Of course, it was not selected so I used it for the ANA exhibitors medal for the Portland convention Thanks for your interest. http://www.smalldollars.com/dollar/page20.html
Brilliant, Scratchmo, brilliant! :applause_:applause_ Those are pieces of art, not the junk they foist on us today. Thanks for your efforts! I would truly appreciate your designs on US coinage. The Great Ag

Scratchmo | 09-02-2008 07:57 PM
Re: TOR on Sacagawea dollars? Hey, Twisted and Ag, Thanks for the glowing remarks. It made my day!!

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