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- - GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=201325)

tooclassy | 11-16-2007 03:46 AM
GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices 10:15a ET Thursday, November 15, 2007 Dear Friend of GATA and Gold: The Liberty Dollar organization announced this morning, via the letter appended here, that federal agents today raised its offices in Evansville, Indiana, and confiscated all its property and equipment. This moves seems extraordinarily bold considering that Liberty Dollar's right to operate already was being litigated in federal court. Let's hope that Liberty Dollar soon can force the government to answer in federal court for today's action. CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc. * * * Liberty Dollar Company Announcement Thursday, November 15, 2007 Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters: I sincerely regret to inform you that about 8 this morning a dozen FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in Evansville, Indiana. For approximately six hours they took all the gold, all the silver, all the platinum, and almost two tons of Ron Paul Dollars that were just delivered last Friday. They also took all the files and computers and froze our bank accounts. We have no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know what was ordered or what you are owed. We have nothing but the will to push forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right to have real money as defined by the U.S. Constitution. We should not be defrauded by the fake government money. But to make matters worse, all the gold and silver that backs up the paper certificates and digital currency held in the vault at Sunshine Mint has also been confiscated. Even the dies for minting the gold and silver Libertys have been taken. All this has happened even though Edmond C. Moy, the director of the U.S. Mint, acknowledged in a letter to a U.S. senator that the paper certificates did not violate Section 486 and were not illegal. But the FBI and Secret Service took all the paper currency too. The possibility of such action was the reason the Liberty Dollar was designed -- so that the vast majority of the money was in specie form and in the people's hands. Of the $20 million Liberty Dollars, only about a million is in paper or digital form. I regret that if you are due an order, it may be some time until it will be filled, if ever. It now all depends on our actions. Everyone who has an unfulfilled order or has digital or paper currency should band together for a class-action suit and demand redemption. We cannot allow the government to steal our money. Please don't let this happen. Many of you read the articles quoting the government and Federal Reserve officials saying the Liberty Dollar was legal. You did nothing wrong. You are legally entitled to your property. Let us use this terrible act to band together and further our goal -- to return America to a value-based currency. Please forward this important alert so everyone who possesses or uses the Liberty Dollar is aware of the situation. Please go here to sign up for the class action lawsuit and get your property back: http://www.libertydollar.org/classaction/index.php Thanks again for your support at this darkest time as the damn government and its dollar sinks to a new low. Bernard von NotHaus, Monetary Architect Liberty Dollar Evansville, Indiana ================================================== ======= 8:25p ET Thursday, November 15, 2007 Dear Friend of GATA and Gold: Appended here are two news accounts confirming the FBI raid on the office of Liberty Dollar in Evansville, Indiana, which was reported in this morning's GATA Dispatch. The raid appears to have taken place yesterday, not today, as first reported. The error in time almost certainly resulted from the inability of Liberty Dollar founder Bernard von NotHaus to dispatch until this morning his letter to customers, which must have been written yesterday afternoon or evening. We'll share more information about this with you as it becomes available. We're hoping that Liberty Dollar's defense fund is still operating even though the credit card contribution mechanism at its Internet site is not working at this hour. But if the government indeed has frozen Liberty Dollar's accounts, raising money for the defense will be more of a challenge. Here's the contact information for Liberty Dollar: Liberty Dollar 225 North Stockwell Road Evansville, Indiana 47715 Phone: 812-473-5250 Email: Info@LibertyDollar.org The Justice Department usually issues a press release about these actions within a couple of days, so we'll be watching for the government's account. CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc. * * * Liberty Dollar Office Raided By Gavin Lesnick Evansville (Indiana) Courier & Press Thursday, November 15, 2007 http://www.courierpress.com/news/200...r-office-raide... The future of an Evansville-based company that produces a "private voluntary barter currency" known as the Liberty Dollar is in question after federal agents raided the facility this week, according to an e-mail sent by its founder. Federal officials reportedly raided the group's headquarters, located in a strip mall at 225 N. Stockwell Road, early Wednesday morning and seized documents and precious metals. FBI Agent Wendy Osborne, a spokeswoman for the FBI's Indianapolis office, directed all questions on the raid to the Western District of North Carolina U.S. Attorney's Office. A spokeswoman there said she had no information on the investigation. Bernard von NotHaus, the group's monetary architect and the author of the e-mail, did not immediately respond to a message seeking comment. Von NotHaus developed the Liberty Dollar in 1998 as an "inflation-proof" alternative currency to the U.S. Dollar, which he has claimed has devalued since the Federal Reserve was established in 1913. The silver medallions are produced by a private mint in Idaho on behalf of Evansville-based Liberty Services, which also issues paper notes which the group says are backed by silver reserves. Liberty Dollar employees were at the office this morning cleaning up after the raid. They referred all questions to von NotHaus. According to the e-mail, about a dozen agents arrived Wednesday morning and seized gold, silver, platinum, and nearly two tons of recently delivered Ron Paul Dollars. They also took all the files and all the computers and froze the group's bank accounts, the e-mail said. "We have no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know what was ordered or what you are owed," von NotHaus wrote in the e-mail, which was sent to Liberty Dollar customers. "We have nothing but the will to push forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right to have real money as defined by the US Constitution. We should not to be defrauded by the fake government money." The e-mail said the gold and silver that backs up the paper and digital currency was confiscated, as were the dies used to mint the Liberty Dollars themselves. As a result, it warns that recent orders placed for Liberty Dollars may not be filled and it encourages supporters to band together for a class-action lawsuit. The e-mail repeatedly defends the Liberty Dollar as legal. "You did nothing wrong," von NotHaus wrote. "You are legally entitled to your property. Let us use this terrible act to band together and further our goal to return America to a value-based currency." * * * Evansville FBI Acknowledges Liberty Dollar Raid By Ed Haas Muckraker Report, Ladson, South Carolina Thursday, November 15, 2007 http://muckrakerreport.com/id550.html According to Bernard von NotHaus, monetary architect of the Liberty Dollar, federal agents raided the Evansville, Indiana, headquarters of the Liberty Dollar at "approximately 8 a.m. this morning." In his e-mail, Von NotHaus indicated federal agents seized gold, silver, platinum, and nearly two tons of recently delivered Ron Paul Dollars. The agents also took all files and computers and froze the organization's bank accounts, according to Von NotHaus. Von NotHaus developed the Liberty Dollar in 1998 as an "inflation-proof" alternative to the U.S. dollar, which has drastically devalued since its inception. The Muckraker Report contacted the Evansville, Indiana, office of the FBI to confirm the raid. According to the Evansville office, the raid occurred yesterday. The FBI agent in the Evansville office did not provide his name and referred all further questions to FBI Agent Wendy Osborne, a spokeswoman for the FBI's Indianapolis office. Wendy Osborne directed the Muckraker Report to Suellen Pierce at the Western District of North Carolina U.S. Attorney's Office. Pierce told the Muckraker Report that she had no information about the raid that was ready to be made public. When told that the Evansville FBI office confirmed the raid, frustration was detected in Pierce's voice as she explained that once information is authorized to be released to the public, she would contact the Muckraker Report. The Muckraker Report contacted Wendy Osborne a second time in pursuit of confirmation of the Evansville FBI claim that the raid actually took place yesterday -- November 14, 2007. Osborne indicated in the second conversation that no information about the raid has been made available to the public but that as soon as she is authorized to release information regarding the raid, she would contact the Muckraker Report.

tooclassy | 11-16-2007 04:06 AM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices Here is another article on this matter: U.S. Raids Issuer of Ron Paul Coins Gold Seized by Agents in Indiana http://www.nysun.com/article/66542?page_no=1

Plebae | 11-16-2007 04:49 AM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices That really puts a wrench in the works of the visionary vendors who were accepting and holding the paper liberty dollars/certificates. The silver is now gone that backs the paper, I wonder if the government has unwittingly given the general public a glimpse of what they have similarly done in reality to the Federal Reserve Notes. The Liberty Dollar Certificates and Federal Reserve notes are now equals save confidence, while the Liberty Dollar Coin holders have been somewhat protected (hint hint) as its value is in the metal. Take Delivery, Paper promises can and will be broken. Physical possession is the only way of truly owning anything. Possession is 9/10ths of the law for a reason. :hahaha::508::sheep:

Joejeweler | 11-16-2007 09:43 AM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices That's the same reason i don't really have full confidence in e-gold & similiar ventures,........and now i'm beginning to wonder about the ETF gold & silver funds. If the Govn't REALLY wants it,......they'll STEAL it!:rant: Quote:
Originally Posted by Plebae (Post 832706) That really puts a wrench in the works of the visionary vendors who were accepting and holding the paper liberty dollars/certificates. The silver is now gone that backs the paper, I wonder if the government has unwittingly given the general public a glimpse of what they have similarly done in reality to the Federal Reserve Notes. The Liberty Dollar Certificates and Federal Reserve notes are now equals save confidence, while the Liberty Dollar Coin holders have been somewhat protected (hint hint) as its value is in the metal. Take Delivery, Paper promises can and will be broken. Physical possession is the only way of truly owning anything. Possession is 9/10ths of the law for a reason. :hahaha::508::sheep:

AlwaysWrite | 11-16-2007 12:57 PM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices Pretty disturbing stuff. I'm not a huge fan of Liberty Dollars (not for $20, maybe for 50 cents over spot as a cool round), but I feel bad for the people who bought them. Actually, I feel bad for the people who bought the paper and electronic Liberty Dollars ... but then again, buying those was pretty silly in the first place. But did the gov't really need to raid and take everything - especially when the court battles are still ongoing?? On the plus side for them, if they can afford decent attorneys, they will probably be able to get all the evidence from the search suppressed, since the search sounds pretty overbroad (admittedly, I only know what the article says, so the facts could be different). Sadly, it will take years and millions of dollars to fight - and it may destroy a small organization like this that was just trying to get some momentum going. A working PM currency really shouldn't have a face value on it - it should just be based on spot price. And they should be sold for spot + X, where X is a small percentage to cover minting costs. Interestingly, they sell $1,000 gold Liberty Dollars at spot + 5% (if you buy enough) - I guess they realize no one will pay $1,000 for an ounce of gold.

electrum | 11-16-2007 04:36 PM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices "Gestapo tactics." Sure, yeah, whatever. VALID WARRANT presented. The real Gestapo waited for a warrant? This type of BULLSHIT is what gives honest, sincere, responsible people who love Freedom a very bad name. "Liberty Dollar" cultists are the "Klansmen on Jerry Springer" of the Honest Money movement.

durfcoin | 11-16-2007 04:59 PM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices Got to go with that. If they decide to take it, look out. I too don't trust the electronic banking. When tshtf they can turn your account number amount into any amount they wish. For safety, security and peace of mind, take delivery and store locally. This could be the beginning of something a lot bigger. Quote:
Originally Posted by Joejeweler (Post 832886) That's the same reason i don't really have full confidence in e-gold & similiar ventures,........and now i'm beginning to wonder about the ETF gold & silver funds. If the Govn't REALLY wants it,......they'll STEAL it!:rant:

Fullpower | 11-16-2007 05:31 PM
Liberty Dollar?????? Nothing whatever wrong with stamping silver, but putting the terms "DOLLAR" and "USA" on them was a monumental act of stupidity. What the heck were they smokin'?

goldbug | 11-16-2007 05:35 PM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum (Post 833524) "Gestapo tactics." Sure, yeah, whatever. VALID WARRANT presented. The real Gestapo waited for a warrant? This type of BULLSHIT is what gives honest, sincere, responsible people who love Freedom a very bad name. "Liberty Dollar" cultists are the "Klansmen on Jerry Springer" of the Honest Money movement.
I think that in our legal system one is presumed innocent until found guilty after a trial. When a person or business is totally sacked, and all assets are seized (the most valuable is the reputation that probably can't be restored, even if the firm is found innocent), including the monies needed to defend themselves, I can see the point about Gestapo comparisons. If you were accused of a crime and faced similar circumstances, how would you defend yourself?

Anty Ep | 11-16-2007 06:17 PM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices anyhow whats this got to do with the gestapo. hitler minted silver coin for Germany. I have some 62.5% and 90% multi-reichsmark coins in possession stamped with hindenberg, potsdam cathedral, and the eagle holding hakenkreuz.

loomanite | 11-16-2007 06:28 PM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices Here is a video from The Street on the raid: http://www.thestreet.com/_swptile/vi..._ite=#10390628

electrum | 11-16-2007 07:25 PM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices Quote:
Originally Posted by goldbug (Post 833622) I think that in our legal system one is presumed innocent until found guilty after a trial. When a person or business is totally sacked, and all assets are seized (the most valuable is the reputation that probably can't be restored, even if the firm is found innocent), including the monies needed to defend themselves, I can see the point about Gestapo comparisons. If you were accused of a crime and faced similar circumstances, how would you defend yourself?
EASY! I wouldn't produce and traffic in fraudulently misleading coins designed to give a false appearance of being genuine US coins. Issuing Silver rounds labeled "Liberty ROUNDS," with no fraudulent denomination on them, would have avoided this problem from the start, even with the "Trust in God" knock-off phrase. As for "defending" myself if I were von NotHaus, that's easy, too. I'd ask for a plea agreement, since a not guilty verdict is as likely as winning PowerBall. Me thinks von NotHaus will be stupid, and take it to full trial.

Gcubed | 11-16-2007 08:17 PM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices Do you honestly believe that someone controlling that amount of money did not "hide" enough to finance a defense? There was MORE than fair warning to prepare. This will be fun to watch if we are allowed! We need to lobby Court TV to cover this!!! Quote:
Originally Posted by goldbug (Post 833622) I think that in our legal system one is presumed innocent until found guilty after a trial. When a person or business is totally sacked, and all assets are seized (the most valuable is the reputation that probably can't be restored, even if the firm is found innocent), including the monies needed to defend themselves, I can see the point about Gestapo comparisons. If you were accused of a crime and faced similar circumstances, how would you defend yourself?

Horn | 11-16-2007 08:25 PM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices I agree Gestapo tactics. The F.B.I. knew what they were doing. There is no reason to raid a buisness in the 21st century. Simply send them to court, if it's a no show then raid'em.

tooclassy | 11-16-2007 11:31 PM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices Liberty Dollar founder Bernard von NotHaus provides more information about the FBI's raid on the organization, including the search and seizure warrants, here: http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/legal/raid.htm

tooclassy | 11-16-2007 11:52 PM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices I am the one who referred to the news of the raid of Liberty Dollar as "gestapo tactics". I concede that I did not know at the time a warrant for search and siezure was signed by a judge. However, I am not back-pedalling in what I said. I believed and still believe that the raid was excessive and brutal and repugnant to our American system. The Feds did an "end run" around the normal court system. 1. On the face of it, the reason for siezure of Liberty dollar and public property was alleged money laundering and mail fraud. These terms are far-reaching, overly broad, and basically meaningless and I think that was completely intentional; 2. The seizure included (and made no effort to exclude) private property and money belonging to innocent parties, therefore damaging innocent parties; 3. The raid has the intended effect of putting Liberty Dollar out of business. Liberty Dollar was complying with the legal process so this was totally out of line. In our American legal system Liberty Dollar should have the right to complete a court trial or legal process before such tactics are used. Instead, their legal right to defend themselves has been virtually destroyed. Whether you like, dislike, own, or don't own Liberty Dollars, for the most part this raid does not engender respect for our government, and may well backfire against the government.

EE_ | 11-17-2007 12:13 AM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices Interesting that a raid of this size has not made mainstream news. I guess explaining what the Liberty people were doing, would open up many questions that the government is covering up?

latemetal | 11-17-2007 06:50 PM
US coin values for comparison 2007 Presidential Dollar 5.69%, Sacawhatever 5.69%, Susan B. Anthony 7.27% 1971-78 Ike dollar 20.36%, 1971-2007 Half dollar 20.36%, Zinc penny 65.44%, Nickle 130.44%, old copper penny 209.16%, metal % of denomination thanks to coinflation.com. Percentage of value wise how did the Liberty Dollar stack up?:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

AlwaysWrite | 11-17-2007 07:21 PM
Re: US coin values for comparison Quote:
Originally Posted by latemetal (Post 834698) 2007 Presidential Dollar 5.69%, Sacawhatever 5.69%, Susan B. Anthony 7.27% 1971-78 Ike dollar 20.36%, 1971-2007 Half dollar 20.36%, Zinc penny 65.44%, Nickle 130.44%, old copper penny 209.16%, metal % of denomination thanks to coinflation.com. Percentage of value wise how did the Liberty Dollar stack up?:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
A little better than a zinc penny, not as good as a nickel? :tongue_ma:

goldbug | 11-17-2007 11:16 PM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices Quote:
Originally Posted by electrum (Post 833741) EASY! I wouldn't produce and traffic in fraudulently misleading coins designed to give a false appearance of being genuine US coins. Issuing Silver rounds labeled "Liberty ROUNDS," with no fraudulent denomination on them, would have avoided this problem from the start, even with the "Trust in God" knock-off phrase. As for "defending" myself if I were von NotHaus, that's easy, too. I'd ask for a plea agreement, since a not guilty verdict is as likely as winning PowerBall. Me thinks von NotHaus will be stupid, and take it to full trial.
it seems extremely unlikely anyone would mistake this for US currency. Also, glad to know you have found them guilty already.

CyberGold | 11-24-2007 04:40 PM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices [QUOTE=goldbug;833622]I think that in our legal system one is presumed innocent until found guilty after a trial. That may be the official version but these days you are alledged guilty until plea bargined in a court of law[yers]. I'm surprised they didn't have off-site data backups of the records, another stupid mistake.

AlwaysWrite | 11-26-2007 04:59 PM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices I have two, so I can trade one. Not only are they now collectible, but they're actually very well done. Very nice looking and proof-like. That's why I picked them up in the first place.

AurumAg | 11-30-2007 02:44 AM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysWrite (Post 846640) I have two, so I can trade one. Not only are they now collectible, but they're actually very well done. Very nice looking and proof-like. That's why I picked them up in the first place.
I'll give you spot + $1 in FRNs. That's 50 cents more than you paid, right?

Mike C | 11-30-2007 09:40 AM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices Wow, a lot of people jumping to conclusions with knowing little facts. I've read people saying stuff like "they were doing everything legal". Do these people know stuff we and the feds don't? Allegedly, they weren't doing everything legally, because a judge signed a search warrant. There might be more to the story than we are getting, give it time before making allegations and rumors. Also, a raid is needed in this type of case, to gain valuable evidence before it is destroyed. I'm sure if you sent them a letter stating something like "please come to court with the papers that show you broke the law, don't alter or destroy them", it would work just fine though:sarcasm: . These cases don't let out all the facts until court so the jury won't be tainted with rumors. Give it time and be open minded, sometimes people are innocent and sometimes people are not. Mike C

AlwaysWrite | 11-30-2007 12:17 PM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices Quote:
Originally Posted by AurumAg (Post 852319) I'll give you spot + $1 in FRNs. That's 50 cents more than you paid, right?
Not quite ... although I'm sure you know what matters isn't what I paid, it's what they're worth. Otherwise, I'd be happy to buy any gold you bought back when it was $300 for $350. :bear_tongue:

goldbug | 12-01-2007 06:51 AM
Re: GATA reports that FBI has used gestapo tactics to raid Liberty Dollar offices http://www.newstarget.com/022314.html Maryland Health Officials Who Coerce Vaccinations Qualify as "Terrorists" Under New Senate Legislation? How dare these writers say this, when everybody knows they did it for the children?

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