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- - safe deposit box storage conditions (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=254519)

Seleukus Nikator | 04-07-2008 03:32 PM
safe deposit box storage conditions Do safe deposit box humidity conditions affect coins and how? I been down in the hole and its musty. Also: I have some gold slabbed, some in flips, and all in those plastic kitchen storage bags. Also some raw silver, in envelopes, in such like bags too. Is that kind of plastic going to give off vapors that will make ugly stains or ugly toning? SHould I pull all the raw coins out and put them in different holders? A lot of my raw gold stash came from APMEX. Do they use flips that will screw up raw gold coins?

eat_beef | 04-07-2008 04:06 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions You should be more worried about whether or not you'll be able to retrieve your coins from your SDB than what their condition will be.:confused_ma:

Raccoon | 04-07-2008 04:10 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions The envelopes, if they are made from bleached paper, can give off sulfur that tarnishes silver. Pure gold is essentially chemically inert, but the alloying copper or silver in coins can react with oxygen and sulfur and darken the coins. I seem to recall that gold can react with chlorine to some extent. Soft plastic is often PVC that conceivably could give off chlorine gas. I don't know if this could happen to such an extent that it would be a problem, however. No plastic bags are completely gas tight so any released chlorine probably dissipates before it can do anything to the gold anyway. Thus, remove the paper envelopes and you should be fine. If you put the gold in hard plastic you will be even safer. Edit: 34 minutes, much longer than expected. Is the paranoia waning?

Raccoon | 04-07-2008 04:52 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick (Post 1050687) The government still has the power to do this: "All safe deposit boxes in banks or financial institutions have been sealed, pending action in the due course of the law. All sales or purchases or movements of such gold and silver within the borders of the United States and its territories and all foreign exchange transactions or movements of such metals across the border are hereby prohibited. Your possession of these proscribed metals and/or your maintenance of a safe deposit box to store them is known by the government from bank and insurance records. Therefore, be advised that your vault box must remain sealed, and may only be opened in the presence of an agent of the Internal Revenue Service." By lawful order given this day, the President of the United States.� Franklin Roosevelt � March 9, 1933
According to somebody on the last episode of goldseek radio, president Ford repealed all those presidential orders. This is not to say that the government can't do whatever it wants. The private holdings of gold are too small to bother about, however.

Montecristo | 04-07-2008 04:52 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick (Post 1050687) The government still has the power to do this: "All safe deposit boxes in banks or financial institutions have been sealed, pending action in the due course of the law. All sales or purchases or movements of such gold and silver within the borders of the United States and its territories and all foreign exchange transactions or movements of such metals across the border are hereby prohibited. Your possession of these proscribed metals and/or your maintenance of a safe deposit box to store them is known by the government from bank and insurance records. Therefore, be advised that your vault box must remain sealed, and may only be opened in the presence of an agent of the Internal Revenue Service." By lawful order given this day, the President of the United States.� Franklin Roosevelt � March 9, 1933
Do you have a link for this? I would like to read more about what happened back then.

Seleukus Nikator | 04-07-2008 04:54 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions FDR's long dead. The goobermint lacks the power to do this today even if they have the authority. The plutocracy is a thousand times stronger than what it used to be and this is what their "laws" and "courts" are best at protecting-- property interests. Much greater hazard from the thief in the night than the goobermint, when it comes to outright confiscation. If I go on vacation I dont want to worry about coming back to the homestead minus my safe. Anyhow, thanks. next time I go in I'll take some inert packages for the silber.

Twisted Avatar | 04-07-2008 04:58 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef (Post 1050639) You should be more worried about whether or not you'll be able to retrieve your coins from your SDB than what their condition will be.
BIG PLUS ONE ONE THAT BEEF!!! T

Twisted Avatar | 04-07-2008 05:02 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions For the benfit of the New jacks .....Please refer to rule number one: T Ten Commandments For Buying Gold & Silver: I. ALWAYS TAKE DELIVERY! NEVER let the firm store it for you! Do not place them in a safety deposit box. They can be frozen pending litigation or national emergency. II. Never buy premium if you can avoid it. (Hint:) Most precious metals being sold on TV or Radio are at premium or much higher. III. Buy bullion for business, numismatics for fun. IV. Buy silver first, then gold. You get more for your money with silver and the reasons are the same. V. Buy small gold first, then large. It is always wise to hold multiple denominations and forms. VI. Never buy exotic coins or modern rarities or ANYTHING YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND. When it comes time to sell, it is very likely you will not get the price you paid. Remember that Rarity and thus value is in the eye of the buyer not the seller. VII. Know your dealer. This relationship will be invaluable as time goes on.( It is wise that you form several independent of each other). A true dealer will take time to educate you and answer All your relevant questions without putting a hammerlock on you to buy something. VIII. What governments can't find, they can't steal, nor tax And lawyers can't sue thus the ULTIMATE in asset protection. IX. NEVER talk to anyone about where you store your physical metals or the amount you actually own, Loose lips sinks ships. X. There is no need to ever break the law. Because the laws on the books will ALWAYS Favor those who are rich because it is them write the law in the first place. XI Always do your own independent due diligence. If a deal is sound it will remain sound until after you research it. TRUST, BUT VERIFY ALWAYS.

twenty4karat | 04-07-2008 06:17 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1050726) For the benfit of the New jacks .....Please refer to rule number one: T Ten Commandments For Buying Gold & Silver: I. ALWAYS TAKE DELIVERY! NEVER let the firm store it for you! Do not place them in a safety deposit box. They can be frozen pending litigation or national emergency. II. Never buy premium if you can avoid it. (Hint:) Most precious metals being sold on TV or Radio are at premium or much higher. III. Buy bullion for business, numismatics for fun. IV. Buy silver first, then gold. You get more for your money with silver and the reasons are the same. V. Buy small gold first, then large. It is always wise to hold multiple denominations and forms. VI. Never buy exotic coins or modern rarities or ANYTHING YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND. When it comes time to sell, it is very likely you will not get the price you paid. Remember that Rarity and thus value is in the eye of the buyer not the seller. VII. Know your dealer. This relationship will be invaluable as time goes on.( It is wise that you form several independent of each other). A true dealer will take time to educate you and answer All your relevant questions without putting a hammerlock on you to buy something. VIII. What governments can't find, they can't steal, nor tax And lawyers can't sue thus the ULTIMATE in asset protection. IX. NEVER talk to anyone about where you store your physical metals or the amount you actually own, Loose lips sinks ships. X. There is no need to ever break the law. Because the laws on the books will ALWAYS Favor those who are rich because it is them write the law in the first place. XI Always do your own independent due diligence. If a deal is sound it will remain sound until after you research it. TRUST, BUT VERIFY ALWAYS.
Amen. Maranatha, :smile:

Banjo | 04-07-2008 06:19 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecristo (Post 1050701) Do you have a link for this? I would like to read more about what happened back then.
I'm interested in that history too. Does anyone have any links to more info? Thanks!

Tariq Aziz | 04-07-2008 07:58 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Keeping irreplaceable valuables - ESPECIALLY PRECIOUS METALS - in a "safe" deposit box is like putting out a pile of gold on your lawn, with a sign, "thieves, please take this!" Only the thieves will have United States Department of the Treasury badges in this case. FDR closed the banks, and had Federal goons raid everyone's "safe" deposit boxes for gold. Bush, or whatever comes next, will do the same. Keep them at home. It's an applied form of the "if you don't hold it, you don't own it" maxim.

Tariq Aziz | 04-07-2008 08:00 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Raccoon (Post 1050702) According to somebody on the last episode of goldseek radio, president Ford repealed all those presidential orders. This is not to say that the government can't do whatever it wants. The private holdings of gold are too small to bother about, however.
Executive order issued, executive order repealed, executive order reissued. "Stroke of the pen, law of the land, kinda cool." Paul Begala, goon in the Clinton administration. Private holdings of gold represent liberty and independence from government control. No matter how small, they'll take it. Don't let them have the opportunity.

Tariq Aziz | 04-07-2008 08:02 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Seleukus Nikator (Post 1050709) FDR's long dead. The goobermint lacks the power to do this today even if they have the authority. The plutocracy is a thousand times stronger than what it used to be and this is what their "laws" and "courts" are best at protecting-- property interests. Much greater hazard from the thief in the night than the goobermint, when it comes to outright confiscation. If I go on vacation I dont want to worry about coming back to the homestead minus my safe.
With all due respect, you are a fool. The monetary value of gold in "safe" deposit boxes is NOT the interest of the government. But since privately-held gold represents personal liberty and independence, that cannot be allowed. The government goons ARE thieves in the night.

Seleukus Nikator | 04-07-2008 08:09 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Listen here. There has been one federal confiscation back in 33. Since they lifted the ban on gold, when, the eighties, there hasnt been one has there. No. In the meantime, there are daily, millions of burglaries around the country and I would say at least ten a day in my county of less than a million souls. So, simple math dictates, that if I am going on vacation, I am more worried about theft than confiscation. Seriously if you guys think a confiscation could happen overnight then you dont get what happened in 33. Read that double eagle book by Frankel if you want a good account. Amazon.com: Double Eagle: The Epic Story of the World's Most Valuable Coin: Alison Frankel: Books Amazon

Tariq Aziz | 04-07-2008 08:15 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecristo (Post 1050701) Do you have a link for this? I would like to read more about what happened back then.
Look up Executive Orders 6073 ("Reopening of Banks" - prohibits withdrawal of gold), and 6102 ("Forbidding the Hording of Gold Coin, Gold Bullion and Gold"). http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=14507 http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=14611

Tariq Aziz | 04-07-2008 08:21 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Seleukus Nikator (Post 1051054) Listen here. There has been one federal confiscation back in 33. Since they lifted the ban on gold, when, the eighties, there hasnt been one has there. No. In the meantime, there are daily, millions of burglaries around the country and I would say at least ten a day in my county of less than a million souls. So, simple math dictates, that if I am going on vacation, I am more worried about theft than confiscation. Seriously if you guys think a confiscation could happen overnight then you dont get what happened in 33. Read that double eagle book by Frankel if you want a good account. Amazon.com: Double Eagle: The Epic Story of the World's Most Valuable Coin: Alison Frankel: Books
Do as you wish. A fool and his money are soon parting. Bush has exceeded the totalitarianism of Roosevelt in most cases, and, we don't have a full-on depression yet. Let's see what Bush does when this situation gets far worse over the next few months. Burglaries occur because people 1) live in bad neighborhoods, 2) don't take proper precautions to foul any burglary attempts, or both. The second one is most important. Most burglars aren't safe crackers; they're common druggies looking for cash for their next fix. Dogs, alarms, illicit entry defeating devices, and safes make them go to the next house.

Seleukus Nikator | 04-07-2008 08:34 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions [quote] Quote:
Originally Posted by Tariq Aziz (Post 1051077) Do as you wish. A fool and his money are soon parting.
Rather I think it would be foolish to risk the real threat of burglary because of some paranoiac fear of gobernment confiscation. But as you say time will tell. Quote:
Bush has exceeded the totalitarianism of Roosevelt in most cases
Not in relative terms. Roosevelt's actions were flatly unconstitutional and the difference between then and now is that back then people knew it. Today people think your constitutional is what you do in the bathroom. Quote:
and, we don't have a full-on depression yet. Let's see what Bush does when this situation gets far worse over the next few months.
LMK in five months if I was a fool or not. Quote:
Burglaries occur because people 1) live in bad neighborhoods,
I live in a fantastic neighborhood and it has seen burglaries. You are pretty confident talker but you need to study up on real crime occurrences. Quote:
2) don't take proper precautions to foul any burglary attempts, or both.
The bigger the likely hit the more likely it is to draw a skilled burglar. In my neighborhood the smash and dash type gang bangers get arrested for DWB. Real burglars pick a crime that's worth the time, which means, they dont knock off 7-11s. When I only had a little stash I recognized, my pot wasnt worth the risks. Now that my pot's sweetened, I am realistic enough to know that some people may have found out, somehow, and also that somebody may be willing to chance it. Quote:
The second one is most important. Most burglars aren't safe crackers; they're common druggies look for cash for their next fix. Dogs, alarms, illicit entry defeating devices, and safes make them go to the next house
In my neighborhood, a more skilled sort of crook would be in the running. And they got answers for those questions if they think the candle's worth the game. Thats why my neighbors use safe deposit boxes too. Anyways, I find it interesting that one reply to this thread topic was responsive and most of the others had to do with a totally unlikely repeat of the 33 confiscation. That is the very definition of irrelevance. Is there anybody at this board who uses a safe deposit box? Or are you all stashing your rounds in old canister vacuum cleaners and PVC "patriot safes?"

Seleukus Nikator | 04-07-2008 08:56 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by specsaregood (Post 1051107) How about if a bank goes under what happens to the contents of a safety deposit box then?
Legitimate question. Its a bailment, not an asset owned by the bank. Banks are not allowed to seize the asset, that is conversion and its an intentional tort punishable by punitive damages, not to mention a crime. Bankruptcy trustees know this too and respect that law. Take for example the SL crisis in which the Resolution Trust Corps took ahold of many many insolvent banks. Nobody lost their box contents. Find me ONE instance of that in the SL crisis. Not one. The only time when banks "seize" box contents like this are when the the lessees of record cant be found, the money to pay the lease runs out from the related bank account, they die and nobody claims it, etc, mundane stuff like that, and state law provides for the orderly and predictable disposal of such boxes in auctions. There are real things to worry about and there are fantasies. The notion that box contents are getting ripped off by banks, or that the fedgovs are going to try and confiscate them again in the near future, is not realistic. Now I would say this: I would never trust one of these bailments that certain PM vendors offer. Perth mint, stuff like that. Nope. Liberty dollar bailments,. Ha. No, I am talking plain old vanilla safe deposit boxes. You know comex and taking delivery and all that? Warehouse receipts, a related notion. I would trust that system too, but I dont do it for other reasons. A "bailment" -- property held by a custodian. Very basic law of property going back centuries before this nation existed in AngloSaxon law. I dont worry about that too much. The other thing-- my financial institution is a credit union. If you know how they operate you know that they are run by locals and that they are far more conservative than banks since the repeal of Glass Steagal. See I am not new to this. My topic was, about numismatics, if the freakin plastic bags would screw up the coins, not this other stuff.

Montecristo | 04-07-2008 10:21 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Tariq Aziz (Post 1051066) Look up Executive Orders 6073 ("Reopening of Banks" - prohibits withdrawal of gold), and 6102 ("Forbidding the Hording of Gold Coin, Gold Bullion and Gold"). http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=14507 http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=14611
Thank You! Quote:
Section 5. Member banks shall deliver all gold coin, gold bullion and gold certificates owned or received by them (other than as exempted under the provisions of Section 2) to the Federal Reserve Banks of their respective districts and receive credit or payment therefor.
Hard to believe this happened. Harder to believe people let it happen.

eat_beef | 04-07-2008 10:25 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions OP: I can't answer for any other posters, but... You asked a question about whether or not your coins would be damaged in a SDB by their packaging or humidity. The chances of that happening are slim and none. While you may belive the odds of your possessions being 'lost' while in the custody of a SDB are miniscule, they are orders of magnitude greater than the odds of your gold Maple growing rust. If you have no fear of losing your property from a SDB, you shouldn't have a fear of humidity or ziploc bags eating them, either.:wink:

platinumdude | 04-07-2008 10:34 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Everyone knows your suppose to bury gold.

Tariq Aziz | 04-07-2008 11:28 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Seleukus Nikator (Post 1051101) I live in a fantastic neighborhood and it has seen burglaries. You are pretty confident talker but you need to study up on real crime occurrences.
READ what I wrote then get back to me. Quote:
Originally Posted by Seleukus Nikator (Post 1051101) Or are you all stashing your rounds in old canister vacuum cleaners and PVC "patriot safes?"
No, that would be as stupid as using a "safe" deposit box. Bolted to the floor...

Tariq Aziz | 04-07-2008 11:30 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecristo (Post 1051271) Hard to believe this happened. Harder to believe people let it happen.
Americans were desperate for relief, and Roosevelt was a "messiah" of sorts. And, what could they do except armed revolt, making social and economic conditions even worse?

Banjo | 04-07-2008 11:53 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions I wonder what the compliance was like? What happened to those who chose not to comply?

Godot | 04-08-2008 12:31 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions My fears about safe deposits stems from the possibility that the courts or the IRS sealing, inventorying and seizing the box due to some unforeseen litigation. Just like a bank account. Anyone have any insight into the process that can lead to this type of scenario

seppuku | 04-08-2008 01:31 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions To put your gold and silver in a SDB in an bank institution totally defeats the purpose of owning precious metals in the first place. There have been many cases where banks have frozen assets of individuals due to lawsuits, etc. Due to the Patriot Act the gov't could confiscate all assets in the bank anyone they deem suspected terrorists, they don't even need a court order. To me, one of the most important advantages of owning gold and precious metals is -secrecy-. Nobody can know you own it, not even your closest friends or relatives. If nobody knows you own it, how can people steal it? Putting in the SDB is like announcing to the world you've got gold, it's inviting all the thieves to take your assets.

Raccoon | 04-08-2008 02:33 AM
Common courtesy dictates that posters should stay on topic. It is quite annoying that the original question cannot be asked without the tinfoil hordes showing up en mass and destroying the thread. There is an entertaining disconnect from reality here at GIM, where a paranoid fear of confiscation is the norm and more level headed people are regarded as deluded. At the same time childish Rambo stuff like "How many guns is enough when SHTF starts" is subject to serious analysis and discussion.

Heimdhal | 04-08-2008 02:44 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Tariq Aziz (Post 1051378) READ what I wrote then get back to me. No, that would be as stupid as using a "safe" deposit box. Bolted to the floor...
how much did THAT set you back?

qatarman1969 | 04-08-2008 02:53 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Interesting discussion (once again) on the topic of storage in a safety deposit box. I offer one observation: I've been following GIM for about 9 - 10 months now, and in that time I recall 2 or 3 posts from someone who had their PMs stolen from their house / apartment / hidey hole. I can't recall a single instance of someone having their PMs confiscated from a SDB. Bottom line is simple...both a personal hidey hole and a SDB come with a risk of "seizure", either by thieves or the gov't. Those risks merely come to play under different circumstances. It is a matter of personal OPINION and risk tolerance as to which allows you to sleep best at night.

twenty4karat | 04-08-2008 03:37 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecristo (Post 1051271) Thank You! Hard to believe this happened. Harder to believe people let it happen.
It's also hard to believe that people let the 'HOME LAND SECURITY ACT' happen. The stroke of the pen can and will be administered at will. Maranatha, :smile:

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- - safe deposit box storage conditions (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=254519)

morganchaser | 04-08-2008 03:47 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions It comes down to DIY vs. Hiring a professional. Securing physical assets is something I choose to do myself as I am a locksmith/security expert and know that I can provide better security than a bank. Financial management is something I choose to do myself as I believe that I can provide better management of my finances/assets than a fund manager/financial planner. Protip: don't put PMs in a non-security safe. Fire safes are sheet metal coated firebrick(dry wall) with an intimidating looking door. You can open one with a crow bar and a can opener. Make sure the juice isn't worth the squeeze and scare off the people who don't know/believe that's true by managing your percieved worth/security ratio.

esoteric | 04-08-2008 03:51 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty4karat (Post 1051613) It's also hard to believe that people let the 'HOME LAND SECURITY ACT' happen. The stroke of the pen can and will be administered at will. Maranatha, :smile:
even more interesting is who the last person to use this phrase was ............

joe32 | 04-08-2008 09:08 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Seleukus Nikator (Post 1050709) FDR's long dead. The goobermint lacks the power to do this today even if they have the authority. The plutocracy is a thousand times stronger than what it used to be and this is what their "laws" and "courts" are best at protecting-- property interests.
I had a friend that declared bankruptcy due to medical charges that he could not afford. The government froze all his assets and even got at a safe deposit box that was under another persons name -- he was only a cosigner. It had $10k in cash in it and the gov took the money and gave it to the creditors.

Victor | 04-08-2008 02:18 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Seleukus Nikator (Post 1050590) Do safe deposit box humidity conditions affect coins and how? I been down in the hole and its musty. Also: I have some gold slabbed, some in flips, and all in those plastic kitchen storage bags. Also some raw silver, in envelopes, in such like bags too. Is that kind of plastic going to give off vapors that will make ugly stains or ugly toning? SHould I pull all the raw coins out and put them in different holders? A lot of my raw gold stash came from APMEX. Do they use flips that will screw up raw gold coins?
Seleukus from my observation: Toning does occur in safety deposit boxes. Silver will tone more than gold. The top coins in the plastic tube type holders tone the most as they are exposed on their face more than the others. You have to be careful with some of the PVC's in kitchen bags or flips as long term storage of coins with these item's might start to stain them. Not sure about paper envelopes but I do know that some of the acids in the coin wrappers will stain coins as well. This is just an opinion but put your raw gold in airtight holders. Anything you want to keep nice, get them in airtights if you can afford to. Not sure about your slabs but regular silver bullion or 90%.....silver is silver and unless you want them pretty....I would not worry about it. Hope this helps.

Seleukus Nikator | 04-08-2008 03:12 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by joe32 (Post 1051885) I had a friend that declared bankruptcy due to medical charges that he could not afford. The government froze all his assets and even got at a safe deposit box that was under another persons name -- he was only a cosigner. It had $10k in cash in it and the gov took the money and gave it to the creditors.
Sure that happens. Just to clarily, that's not the kind of confiscation we're talking about. Judgment creditors, through a process called "proceedings supplemental," discover your assets and seize them. That is not really "confiscation" in the same sense in which FDR confiscated privately owned gold of perfectly innocent citizens in 33. I am not talking about hiding assets here, not from creditors either private or public. Thats not an issue for me since I pay my debts. The basic premises of the argument were, I fear private theft more than government confiscation because it occurs frequently. Some other folks dont feel the same, obviously. Why, I dont know, because private theft occurs constantly, whereas, as I've pointed out, the only confiscation event like this in our history was really in 33 only. I might point out that his order flagrantly violated due process and the fifth amendment takings clause too-- it was really beyond the pale of anything before then and anything since, where the matter of takings is concerned.

Seleukus Nikator | 04-08-2008 03:18 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor (Post 1052374) Seleukus from my observation: This is just an opinion but put your raw gold in airtight holders. Anything you want to keep nice, get them in airtights if you can afford to. Not sure about your slabs but regular silver bullion or 90%.....silver is silver and unless you want them pretty....I would not worry about it. Hope this helps.
The silver is actually sentimental, handmedowns, I want the kids to have when I croak. And I dont want to be tempted to liquidate meanwhiles. So I kind of want it in decent shape. None of its really BU anyways, already toned a bit from a few decades in a crown royal bag in a safe in a garage. No kidding! But I may toss a few rolls of saes in there too before long. The gold fractionals are my raw coins. The US ones are slabbed. Most of the raw ones were from APMEX. Are their flips corrosive or what? Seems like vinyl is and mylar isnt, maybe I read that somehweres. I am getting coins in flips all the time and I always wonder how you can tell. Thanks for your reply.

Raccoon | 04-08-2008 03:39 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions I think that most flaps that are really soft are PVC/vinyl. There are flaps that are much stiffer and those should be OK, IIRC. Those flaps aren't air tight anyway, so I wouldn't use them (at least not for silver).

Seleukus Nikator | 04-09-2008 03:12 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by qatarman1969 (Post 1051595) ................... Bottom line is simple...both a personal hidey hole and a SDB come with a risk of "seizure", either by thieves or the gov't. Those risks merely come to play under different circumstances. It is a matter of personal OPINION and risk tolerance as to which allows you to sleep best at night.
you're being far too generous sir. I can see you are trying to be friendly and charitable. I am feeling less kindly since I was mocked for the notion. Now I want to underline my point because I dont appreciate being mocked by people who cant count. Aside from attatchments coming out of run of the mill lawsuits-- not talking about that, but rather talking about genuine governmental confiscation-- that has happened ONCE in 1933. In the meantime, there have been MILLIONS OF HOME THEFTS AROUND THIS COUNTRY ON AN ANNUAL BASIS. There is ZERO empirical fact based comparison that in any way justifies the paranoiac view which says that this is a matter of taste or individual risk tolerance. Sure it is-- in the sense that some people who can't count, are worrying about a singularity when there are millions of loss events occuring around them. With counting ability like that, I would say, stay out of the underwriter business. One loss event does not equal millions of loss events. A safe deposit box is an immensely more secure location for valuables than your house including your house in a nice neighborhood with a dog and a fancy gun safe. There is zero comparison. Hell banks get knocked off all the time by thieves but even so do they take the safe deposit contents? No because the candles not worth the game. If people are going to have a serious conversation about risk you have to base your comments on real events and real probabilities and not chimerical paranoaic fantasies.

Seleukus Nikator | 04-09-2008 03:15 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Raccoon (Post 1052522) I think that most flaps that are really soft are PVC/vinyl. There are flaps that are much stiffer and those should be OK, IIRC. Those flaps aren't air tight anyway, so I wouldn't use them (at least not for silver).
read this http://www.pocketchangelottery.com/article96.htm

Seleukus Nikator | 04-09-2008 03:19 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions look at this -- brent kreuger sells both kinds, incl vinyl. hell, I have probably bought vinyl and stuck my own coins in it stupidly. http://www.brent-krueger.com/flips.html

last7th | 04-10-2008 01:39 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions A quote i ran across. All safe deposit boxes in banks or financial institutions have been sealed... and may only be opened in the presence of an agent of the I.R.S." - President F.D. Roosevelt, 1933

Ronnie Mexico | 04-10-2008 11:36 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions con�fis�cate Audio Help /ˈkɒnfəˌskeɪt, kənˈfɪskeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-fuh-skeyt, kuhn-fis-keyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -cat�ed, -cat�ing, adjective �verb (used with object) 1. to seize as forfeited to the public domain; appropriate, by way of penalty, for public use. 2. to seize by or as if by authority; appropriate summarily: The border guards confiscated our movie cameras. Technically, the money (gold coins) were not confiscated. All individuals who turned in their gold coins where fully reimbursed by the government with paper money. It sounds like a really bad deal today, but those people needed the money and were desperate. We're talking about the worst crisis since... ever? And even the people who were forced to empty their safety deposit boxes were reimbursed. Confisaction means seizure without compensation.

Twisted Avatar | 04-10-2008 11:52 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Private holdings of gold represent liberty and independence from government control. No matter how small, they'll take it. Don't let them have the opportunity. traiq aziz +1 T

Twisted Avatar | 04-10-2008 12:10 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Seleukus Nikator (Post 1054153) read this http://www.pocketchangelottery.com/article96.htm
I certainely respect your postion oh how you feel about SBD's and you rasie vaild point as to why you hold the postion that you. Another guy just posted what the defination of what confisfaction is and it is apparent as per the definition NO CONFISCATION TOOK PLACE .deperate people that were cash strapped turned in there money and where "compenasted" under the watchfull eye of gubbermint goons Your modle the world is based on the suppostion:That this will stay ordley in themarkets and gubbermint will pretty much function as they do now with minor changes here and ther along the way. THAT WILL NOT BE THE CASE GOING FORWARD..I CAN ASSURE YOU. We are on the cusp of the greatest shift in the history on the financial markets where going forward where in due time ALLL PAPER CONTRACTS WILL BEEN SEEN AS SUSPECT THE " CREDIBILTY" OF THE COUNTER PARTY WONT MEAN A DAM (gubbemint, bank , corperations) Major sharks are gonna get eaten alive this time my friend and AND YOU TRUST THAT BANKS WILL SOMEHOW STAY ODERLY AND HONOR THERE CONTRACTS WITH YOU ??? Maybe I am wrong ..AND I HOPE TO GOD I AM WRONG ..... But what if I am just HALF RIGHT ?? WHAT IS YOUR PLAN THEN?? I cast my lot ...... THAT I WILL ALWAYS HOLD MY PROPERTY ... I TAKE ALLRESONABLE PERCAUTIONS EVERYTHING CARRIES RISK. I hope you do well with how you store your Pm's futures generation of your heirs wellbeing hangs in the balance. T

Raccoon | 04-10-2008 12:20 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie Mexico (Post 1055551) And even the people who were forced to empty their safety deposit boxes were reimbursed. Confiscation means seizure without compensation.
Yes. And there was plenty of warning before, so many stashes were moved to Europe for safekeeping. That's the reason why there is so much pre-33 US gold available. Regarding the relative risks, I agree with Seleukus. The whole SDB thing reminds me of people with a fear of flying. Most airplane crashes throughout the world are reported in the news, so it sounds like a lot. This scares people, and some go by car instead of flying because they perceive air travel as dangerous. This is completely irrational however, as it is 25-50 times (depending on how it is calculated) more dangerous to go by car when measured as deaths per traveled mile. The constant referral to the isolated incident of "confiscation" of gold in the thirties is very similar; a low-probability event is greatly exaggerated in peoples minds due to constant repetition, whereas everyday occurrences as burglaries and theft of safes is either ignored, or dismissed with some childish Rambo talk like "The thieves will be greeted with a wall of hot lead!". Usually it is impossible to even mention SDB's without getting a lot of posts pointing out how foolish it is to use such a box, so it is very strange that the SDB detractors are completely silent now.

Raccoon | 04-10-2008 12:38 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1055616) Your modle the world is based on the suppostion:That this will stay ordley in themarkets and gubbermint will pretty much function as they do now with minor changes here and ther along the way. THAT WILL NOT BE THE CASE GOING FORWARD..I CAN ASSURE YOU. T
This is a rather one-sided argument in my opinion. It is pretty certain that social and economical chaos will increase crime. The relative risk of burglaries versus "confiscation" should increase even more during such circumstances.

Raccoon | 04-10-2008 05:06 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by specsaregood (Post 1055674) To each their own. It might be a rare event, but are we not possibly looking at another great financial catastrophe in the making?
Of course anything CAN happen, bug that doesn't necessarily mean that it is very likely to happen.

Twisted Avatar | 04-10-2008 05:14 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Raccoon (Post 1056055) Of course anything CAN happen, bug that doesn't necessarily mean that it is very likely to happen.
BAHH!! This can be debated until the apocolyspe and we wont be any more clear on the subject than now.. The short answer: LET EACH WOMAN AND MAN TAKE "APPROPRIATE" ACTION ACCORDING TO THERE TOLERANCE FOR RISK. Issue resolved. T

joe32 | 04-10-2008 05:22 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Seleukus Nikator (Post 1052462) Sure that happens. Just to clarily, that's not the kind of confiscation we're talking about. Judgment creditors, through a process called "proceedings supplemental," discover your assets and seize them. That is not really "confiscation" in the same sense in which FDR confiscated privately owned gold of perfectly innocent citizens in 33. I am not talking about hiding assets here, not from creditors either private or public. Thats not an issue for me since I pay my debts. The basic premises of the argument were, I fear private theft more than government confiscation because it occurs frequently. Some other folks dont feel the same, obviously. Why, I dont know, because private theft occurs constantly, whereas, as I've pointed out, the only confiscation event like this in our history was really in 33 only.
Anyone (even you) can get hammered by massive medical bills that will result in bankruptcy. This friend was cleaned out due to medical costs. Divorce is another one.

seppuku | 04-10-2008 05:24 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions It's all depends on who you trust, yourself? or the gov't? Personally I trust myself. Personally I think those who think that putting your gold in SDB are safer is just naive. There are many risks. And to me I feel much more comfortable with keeping my gold and silver in close proximity than to give to someone else for safekeeping. I think it's true we are approaching a time where great transfer of wealth iwill take place. Those who trust gov't for their retirements with money in the stock market and treasury bonds and CDs are gonna get slaughtered. Put your money in physical gold and silver, and then keep it hidden from the gov't is the best policy imho.

Raccoon | 04-10-2008 05:35 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1056067) BAHH!! This can be debated until the apocolyspe and we wont be any more clear on the subject than now.. The short answer: LET EACH WOMAN AND MAN TAKE "APPROPRIATE" ACTION ACCORDING TO THERE TOLERANCE FOR RISK. Issue resolved. T
That sounds fine, as long as one remember that the probability of different kinds of events happening can be quantified, and has nothing to do with personal preference or dislike for this or that. Some things happen quite often and some things happen very seldom, and the risk should be estimated accordingly.

Twisted Avatar | 04-10-2008 06:09 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Raccoon (Post 1056120) That sounds fine, as long as one remember that the probability of different kinds of events happening can be quantified, and has nothing to do with personal preference or dislike for this or that. Some things happen quite often and some things happen very seldom, and the risk should be estimated accordingly.
Well said Rac T

qatarman1969 | 04-11-2008 09:05 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Seleukus Nikator (Post 1054147) you're being far too generous sir. I can see you are trying to be friendly and charitable. I am feeling less kindly since I was mocked for the notion. Now I want to underline my point because I dont appreciate being mocked by people who cant count. Aside from attatchments coming out of run of the mill lawsuits-- not talking about that, but rather talking about genuine governmental confiscation-- that has happened ONCE in 1933. In the meantime, there have been MILLIONS OF HOME THEFTS AROUND THIS COUNTRY ON AN ANNUAL BASIS. There is ZERO empirical fact based comparison that in any way justifies the paranoiac view which says that this is a matter of taste or individual risk tolerance. Sure it is-- in the sense that some people who can't count, are worrying about a singularity when there are millions of loss events occuring around them. With counting ability like that, I would say, stay out of the underwriter business. One loss event does not equal millions of loss events. A safe deposit box is an immensely more secure location for valuables than your house including your house in a nice neighborhood with a dog and a fancy gun safe. There is zero comparison. Hell banks get knocked off all the time by thieves but even so do they take the safe deposit contents? No because the candles not worth the game. If people are going to have a serious conversation about risk you have to base your comments on real events and real probabilities and not chimerical paranoaic fantasies.
You're right...I'm being far too generous, but I've grown tired of trying to argue logically about real probabilities with those who are paranoid beyond reason about gov't confiscation. :banghead: They can't be convinced, so I've decided that if they wish to accept the risk of thievery with their PM's, so be it. All I ask is that I be afforded the same courtesy regarding my decision to accept what I believe to be a much lower risk by putting my PM's in a safety deposit box. Regardless of what others have said about you, you are most certainly NOT a fool...millions of home robberies per year vs. one gov't confiscation in the last 100 yrs is a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned. And as I've pointed out before...I don't care how secure or large or concreted & bolted to the floor one's home safe is - it only takes a gun to the head of a family member to open that baby up faster than spit.

qatarman1969 | 04-11-2008 09:13 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by seppuku (Post 1056099) It's all depends on who you trust, yourself? or the gov't? Personally I trust myself. Personally I think those who think that putting your gold in SDB are safer is just naive. There are many risks. And to me I feel much more comfortable with keeping my gold and silver in close proximity than to give to someone else for safekeeping.
We'll have to agree to disagree, as I think those who store large quantities of PM's in their homes are naive. Do I trust myself? Of course. It's all those thieves out there who might break into my home while I'm asleep or on vacation that I don't trust! But if storing PMs in a SDB keeps you awake at night, whereas storing them in your home lets you sleep...then you've made the right decision for YOU, regardless of what I think...

qatarman1969 | 04-11-2008 09:23 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Raccoon (Post 1056120) That sounds fine, as long as one remember that the probability of different kinds of events happening can be quantified, and has nothing to do with personal preference or dislike for this or that. Some things happen quite often and some things happen very seldom, and the risk should be estimated accordingly.
Exactly. Risk has both PROBABILITY and CONSEQUENCE. One must take into account BOTH to properly evaluate the risk. For example, the probability of me bumping my shin on my desk is quite high, but the consequence is low...so I don't really worry about it. At the opposite extreme, the consequence of a meteor landing on my house is enormous (death to me & my family), but the probability is minuscule...so I don't worry about that one either. When I evaluate the risk of SDB storage, I see a very low probability of gov't seizure (it's only happened once in 80+ years), coupled with a medium consequence as I would likely be reimbursed in the paper of the day (as was done in 1933). Paper reimbursement is certainly not ideal, but it's a damn sight better than my PMs just disappearing. Very low probability + medium consequence = Low Risk. Evaluating the risk of home storage, I feel that there is a medium probability of thievery (higher if anyone in the family accidentally lets it slip that we have PMs in the house!), coupled with a very high consequence, as thievery means that my PMs are gone with no compensation whatsoever. Medium probability + very high consequence = High Risk.

Ronnie Mexico | 04-11-2008 03:27 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Raccoon (Post 1055630) Yes. And there was plenty of warning before, so many stashes were moved to Europe for safekeeping. That's the reason why there is so much pre-33 US gold available.
Thanks for reading my post! I hear this confiscation story a lot around GLP, and it seems many people don't know what confiscation even means.

TomD | 04-11-2008 04:32 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions There are a fair number of us here who use SDB's. I've had one for a while but it has been useful for only a year and some since I started trading from very silver heavy (and I mean heavy) to gold. Security was one of the main reasons for the trade. A box can't help much with many hundreds of pounds of silver. GIM is a little strange sometimes but you should have seen it a couple of years ago. I too live in a "nice part of town" but that is far from immunity from burglary. Since street types plainly stand out here, when a burglary does occur, it is far more likely to be a professional operation, the very sort most likely to know how to deal with your safe.

Raccoon | 04-12-2008 06:18 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by qatarman1969 (Post 1057034) Exactly. Risk has both PROBABILITY and CONSEQUENCE. One must take into account BOTH to properly evaluate the risk.
Good post. I hadn't thought about including the consequence factor in the risk calculation, but I agree that it is an important consideration.

TomD | 04-12-2008 07:17 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by qatarman1969 (Post 1057034) Exactly. Risk has both PROBABILITY and CONSEQUENCE. One must take into account BOTH to properly evaluate the risk. For example, the probability of me bumping my shin on my desk is quite high, but the consequence is low...so I don't really worry about it. At the opposite extreme, the consequence of a meteor landing on my house is enormous (death to me & my family), but the probability is minuscule...so I don't worry about that one either. When I evaluate the risk of SDB storage, I see a very low probability of gov't seizure (it's only happened once in 80+ years), coupled with a medium consequence as I would likely be reimbursed in the paper of the day (as was done in 1933). Paper reimbursement is certainly not ideal, but it's a damn sight better than my PMs just disappearing. Very low probability + medium consequence = Low Risk. Evaluating the risk of home storage, I feel that there is a medium probability of thievery (higher if anyone in the family accidentally lets it slip that we have PMs in the house!), coupled with a very high consequence, as thievery means that my PMs are gone with no compensation whatsoever. Medium probability + very high consequence = High Risk.
Very well done post. :applause_

cugir321 | 04-12-2008 11:03 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions The thing I don't get is why would they want to confiscate the gold? I just read recently that the reason Roosovelt confiscated the gold and silver was because there were gold and silver certificates in circulation. Everyone was turning them in for hard gold and silver currency. The banks couldn't comply. It was a tremendous embarrassment to the administration. There was a run on the banks. The certicificates are no longer in circulation.

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TomD | 04-13-2008 08:46 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by cugir321 (Post 1059332) The thing I don't get is why would they want to confiscate the gold? I just read recently that the reason Roosovelt confiscated the gold and silver was because there were gold and silver certificates in circulation. Everyone was turning them in for hard gold and silver currency. The banks couldn't comply. It was a tremendous embarrassment to the administration. There was a run on the banks. The certicificates are no longer in circulation.
My understanding is that people were hording G&S and that the main purpose of the confiscation was to to get the money in circulation. But you are absolutely right in that there would be no purpose to a confiscation. In fact it would be deeply counterproductive.

Ronnie Mexico | 04-13-2008 10:15 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions To add a further note: silver has never been the target of any confiscation or legislation curbing redemption of silver certificates during the Great Depression and onwards as far as I know. And again: in 1933 gold was not confiscated. Everybody got the entire amount returned in other money.

beercritic | 04-13-2008 10:32 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie Mexico (Post 1059734) And again: in 1933 gold was not confiscated. Everybody got the entire amount returned in other money.
Wealth was stolen. Sure, folks gave up gold at roughly $20 an ounce. After the gold was turned in, it was revalued at $35/ounce. Looks like over 40% was confiscated. And look how much further the fiat has dropped since then. I'd call it confiscation, theft, fraud...

cugir321 | 04-13-2008 10:50 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions How is it not confiscation if they made you turn it in? That's like saying emminant domain is not confiscation....sure they pay you a small amount but they take the property you didn't want to sell. I read that people wanted hard currency so they had depleted all the bank gold reserves by cashing their certificates. I believe a couple years sfter gold was confiscated...they did the same for silver. Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie Mexico (Post 1059734) To add a further note: silver has never been the target of any confiscation or legislation curbing redemption of silver certificates during the Great Depression and onwards as far as I know. And again: in 1933 gold was not confiscated. Everybody got the entire amount returned in other money.

Gcubed | 04-13-2008 11:06 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Silver wasn't confiscated. It remained in circulation until it was driven out by cupro-nickel coinage. Quote:
Originally Posted by cugir321 (Post 1059762) How is it not confiscation if they made you turn it in? That's like saying emminant domain is not confiscation....sure they pay you a small amount but they take the property you didn't want to sell. I read that people wanted hard currency so they had depleted all the bank gold reserves by cashing their certificates. I believe a couple years sfter gold was confiscated...they did the same for silver.

AuLiberties | 04-13-2008 11:14 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Alot of good discussion - even if it did get off topic... In 33 the US was on the Gold standard so a confiscation would seem logical to a President to try to prop up the economy. Even though it turned out to be a scam as someone mentioned earlier in that all it did was cost people money after the revaluation of gold. Also people were more trusting of the Government then. VERY different now! The US is no longer on a Gold standard. So why confiscate? Unless they realize the fiat system they have in place is not valid anymore. In that case it would trigger to the rest of the world we have given up and admitted our currency is useless. Talk about he do-do hitting the fan then!! Or the government could decide to return to a Gold standard. Which would be great for the country anyway. As for all the posts about losing freedoms under Bush. I have asked sceptics; and heard conspiracy theorists alike, asked what freedoms we no longer have since Bush came into office and I have yet to hear one freedom lost. I always hear alot of mumbo jumbo about phones or theories about what COULD happen, but not one legit loss of freedom's. I'm very open minded and would gladly listen to any poster who can give me a freedom lost. I'm not the smartest person in the world and a bit naive so I am open to learning. :) I have a SDB, but currently have no Gold in it. My banker told me they cannot touch the box without authorization from the state of Texas. Which gave me some comfort. But as others have said, the Government is corrupt, so who knows what could happen. I may put some gold there. Or I may not. I prefer having it on hand. I guess I have to decide who I trust more: the Government or crooks. Still haven't decided...

paker | 04-13-2008 11:56 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by AuLiberties (Post 1059788) I have a SDB, but currently have no Gold in it. My banker told me they cannot touch the box without authorization from the state of Texas. Which gave me some comfort. But as others have said, the Government is corrupt, so who knows what could happen. I may put some gold there. Or I may not. I prefer having it on hand. I guess I have to decide who I trust more: the Government or crooks. Still haven't decided...
My bank states clearly that anything held in a deposit box has absolutely no insurance, by either the FDIC or the bank, against loss. That doesn't give me a lot of confidence in my PMs being secure in a bank.

AuLiberties | 04-13-2008 12:08 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by paker (Post 1059824) My bank states clearly that anything held in a deposit box has absolutely no insurance, by either the FDIC or the bank, against loss. That doesn't give me a lot of confidence in my PMs being secure in a bank.
Another point to consider. I asked my insurance agent about insurance on collectables (codeword for gold coins) and cash. he said they will not insure stamps, coins, art, cash, etc. Just a blanket $1000.00 coverage on collectables is the limit. He said there is no way to prove you owned it. So I am not issured at home either. So the safer option is the bank as far as loss goes.

goldwish | 04-13-2008 03:09 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1059670) ...But you are absolutely right in that there would be no purpose to a confiscation. In fact it would be deeply counterproductive.
can you imagine that? things would be so bad chaos would break out throughout the nation. I can't see confiscation again unless the US was forced back to the gold standard because the world no longer wanted the dollar, period. wasn't it France who demanded payment in US gold back in the 30's that precipitated that confiscation?

Gcubed | 04-13-2008 03:13 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions The French demand resulted in Nixon taking us off the gold standard for international settlements. The confiscation allowed for the inflation of the currency. Quote:
Originally Posted by goldwish (Post 1060013) can you imagine that? things would be so bad chaos would break out throughout the nation. I can't see confiscation again unless the US was forced back to the gold standard because the world no longer wanted the dollar, period. wasn't it France who demanded payment in US gold back in the 30's that precipitated that confiscation?

TomD | 04-13-2008 03:24 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by paker (Post 1059824) My bank states clearly that anything held in a deposit box has absolutely no insurance, by either the FDIC or the bank, against loss. That doesn't give me a lot of confidence in my PMs being secure in a bank.
In order for there to be insurance there would also have to be a strict inventory and a record of the contents. Not good.

goldwish | 04-13-2008 03:33 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Gcubed (Post 1060017) The French demand resulted in Nixon taking us off the gold standard for international settlements. The confiscation allowed for the inflation of the currency.
thanks, got my history all mixed up. too much time in the sun :bear_w00t:

ShinyThings | 04-13-2008 07:21 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Keep in mind that in 1933, gold was in circulation. People had it in SDB's. The US was on a gold standard. This is no longer the case. The average J6P does not own any PM's. Even if one argues that investment demand is increasing, many are investing in PM's through the ETF's rather than physical. The G'ment would get very little return for the effort of confiscating SDB contents these days. Actually, if I were the G'ment and needed to confiscate gold, I would go after the ETF's. ST disclaimer: I have a SDB.

RotaryRevn | 04-14-2008 02:56 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions I have noticed that toned morgans go for much more than the non toned coins. Maybe I should through them in some of the things that tone them and in 30 years, they will have some nice color to them?

Seleukus Nikator | 04-14-2008 09:20 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Avatar (Post 1055616) I certainely respect your postion oh how you feel about SBD's and you rasie vaild point as to why you hold the postion that you.
Thanks. You sound like a nice young feller. Try to steer clear from paranoia it distorts reality and can get you wasting too much time and energy on catastrophic events that wont happen and get you ignoring less catastropic bad things that might. As in, worrying about confiscation by the G when garden variety burglary and theft is a massively greater risk. Quote:
Your modle the world is based on the suppostion:That this will stay ordley in themarkets and gubbermint will pretty much function as they do now with minor changes here and ther along the way
. Not at all. The financial markets can crash and the bailments will still be bailments. That is what SDB holdings are. The banks cant pledge them as security and when SLs failed in the past, or banks, their creditors NEVER as in NEVER got to seize SDB contents in satsifaction of debts. That included RTC which you should look up since you probably dont know what I'm talking about. Quote:
We are on the cusp of the greatest shift in the history on the financial markets where going forward where in due time ALLL PAPER CONTRACTS WILL BEEN SEEN AS SUSPECT THE " CREDIBILTY" OF THE COUNTER PARTY WONT MEAN A DAM (gubbemint, bank , corperations)
You're cracking me up. I have been reading this crap here for a long time. Let me clue you and the rest of the paranoiacs into something. Paper contracts? History? Try this on for size. The first "paper contracts" were financial obligations written on clay tablets. From BEFORE the time of Hammurabi, four thousand years ago. http://www.duhaime.org/LegalResource...101750-BC.aspx Nobody is going to be doing away with "paper contracts" any time soon, any more than they will be doing away with paper currencies or law books or the other accoutrements of civilization. You can be sure that even in the fevered swamps of third world armpits like Zimbabwe there are still contracts being used and honored and deeds passing title and so forth. Learn a thing or two about law before you presume to lecture people you dont know. Quote:
I hope you do well with how you store your Pm's futures generation of your heirs wellbeing hangs in the balance.
Luckily I have heirs to worry about; do you? Paranoia is no way to win a lady. And they will be just fine and no PMS do NOT make up a majority of my savings or investment portfolio. This a great website but I dont have the patience to suffer paranoia any more than I do the politically correct thought police either. I take reality and reason as my guides and try to not let groupthink take me too much in any one direction.

Ronnie Mexico | 04-14-2008 11:30 AM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by beercritic (Post 1059745) Wealth was stolen. Sure, folks gave up gold at roughly $20 an ounce. After the gold was turned in, it was revalued at $35/ounce. Looks like over 40% was confiscated. And look how much further the fiat has dropped since then. I'd call it confiscation, theft, fraud...
I don't call it theft. Theft is stealing under a different paragraph of the US law book. Confiscation is something governments can do in times of crisis. When you buy a lot of fake clothing in China and you get caught by US customs, are you going to cry foul when its confiscated (it violates every - international - copyright and brand laws in the US and elsewhere) and your clothing is destroyed afterwards? No, it's a calculated risk. People who turned in their gold coins in 1933 were reimbursed for 100%. You handed over a $20 gold coin you got a $20 US note or $20 FRN in return. Those were fully redeemable in silver. Hundreds of millions silver dollars were struck between 1878 and 1933 with various intervals. Those were minted because they looked pretty fancy? No. They were meant to back money. The USA went from a gold standard (established in 1900 officially) to a silver standard. Confiscating gold was done to expand the money supply which had contracted so much. A little reading shows that nations who remained on the gold standard during the Great Depression (France, Netherlands, Switzerland, etc) went through a signficantly deeper and longer depression. If you happened to turn in your gold on or after 1934 - when gold was valued at $35 a troy oz - you got face value. Tough shit if you lose 40%, but that was a risk many took. Fiat money, in the strictest sense of the word - did not exist in the USA in terms of silver until 1964 (you could redeem silver certificates for silver dollars until 1968) and for governments in 1971. Quote:
Originally Posted by cugir321 (Post 1059762) How is it not confiscation if they made you turn it in? That's like saying emminant domain is not confiscation....sure they pay you a small amount but they take the property you didn't want to sell. I read that people wanted hard currency so they had depleted all the bank gold reserves by cashing their certificates. I believe a couple years after gold was confiscated...they did the same for silver.
The US and banks were running out of money. If the gold "confiscation" did not happen, many more banks would have failed. There's only a finite amount of gold and in the US hoarding was already common. Before the Great War only in the Western states people used gold in daily transactions. Many old $20 pieces circulated because there wasn't paper money available and people did not, entirely, trust it. In the Eastern states papermoney was long accepted and gold hardly circulated. It was minted to be sent overseas. During and after the Great War, when gold wasn't minted for a few years, Western states used gold decreasingly so. Gold was hoarded in times when $20 went a long way. Nobody put a gun to your head and forced you to turn everything in. If you got caught, bad luck - but you got your money back. If it stayed in a vault for 40 years, you were lucky and earned a little money. People's need for spendable money made it happen. While gold was no longer legal tender, I'll be blasted if people didn't spend gold coins between 1933 and 1939. But why would you? It'd be more profitable to take it overseas, melt it and take your 40% premium. Not a bad deal I'd say. So suppose the USA was staying on the gold standard. Suppose there wasn't a bank holiday and people continued to demand gold coin. What if national banks, the Federal Reserve and the Treasury ran out of gold? The USA would go bankrupt. This almost happened before in 1895 and 1907. Many more banks would fail and more people would lose their money and life savings. But seeing as how many gold coins survived, I wouldn't say it was a really successful confiscation. You cannot print gold and that was its main Achilles Heel during the Great Depression. Again: never happened for silver. Silver was replaced with clad coinage in 1964.

Seleukus Nikator | 04-14-2008 12:53 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by AuLiberties (Post 1059838) Another point to consider. I asked my insurance agent about insurance on collectables (codeword for gold coins) and cash. he said they will not insure stamps, coins, art, cash, etc. Just a blanket $1000.00 coverage on collectables is the limit. He said there is no way to prove you owned it. So I am not issured at home either. So the safer option is the bank as far as loss goes.
Maybe your agent doesnt know that he doesnt know. Whats insured under your policy is governed by a written contract. If you want to know if its insured, ask him and ask him where it says so or where its excluded. If you want insurance for gold coins, say so. If he doesnt have a product tell him you'll be shopping elsewhere for one. Here's what the ANA offers. http://www.pnna.org/reference/insurance.html I had a very specific conversation with my agent about this kind of coverage and bought additional coverage for what I had at the time. I provided receipts to verify. If I had a loss and they failed to pay the claim, I'd take the same receipts into court when I sued them, and they would lose. They know it and so do I. As for the paranoiacs who worry about telling anybody you got PMs or whatever, guess what, if you're on the net doing that then the cat's out of the bag. As for my agent or his people squealing to the wrong people, well that would be very unwise. :D Now, for what I got that exceeds my coverage, I got the SDB. So there you have it.

Twisted Avatar | 04-14-2008 02:34 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Quote:
Originally Posted by Seleukus Nikator (Post 1060959) Thanks. You sound like a nice young feller. Try to steer clear from paranoia it distorts reality and can get you wasting too much time and energy on catastrophic events that wont happen and get you ignoring less catastropic bad things that might. As in, worrying about confiscation by the G when garden variety burglary and theft is a massively greater risk. . Not at all. The financial markets can crash and the bailments will still be bailments. That is what SDB holdings are. The banks cant pledge them as security and when SLs failed in the past, or banks, their creditors NEVER as in NEVER got to seize SDB contents in satsifaction of debts. That included RTC which you should look up since you probably dont know what I'm talking about. You're cracking me up. I have been reading this crap here for a long time. Let me clue you and the rest of the paranoiacs into something. Paper contracts? History? Try this on for size. The first "paper contracts" were financial obligations written on clay tablets. From BEFORE the time of Hammurabi, four thousand years ago. http://www.duhaime.org/LegalResource...101750-BC.aspx Nobody is going to be doing away with "paper contracts" any time soon, any more than they will be doing away with paper currencies or law books or the other accoutrements of civilization. You can be sure that even in the fevered swamps of third world armpits like Zimbabwe there are still contracts being used and honored and deeds passing title and so forth. Learn a thing or two about law before you presume to lecture people you dont know. Luckily I have heirs to worry about; do you? Paranoia is no way to win a lady. And they will be just fine and no PMS do NOT make up a majority of my savings or investment portfolio. This a great website but I dont have the patience to suffer paranoia any more than I do the politically correct thought police either. I take reality and reason as my guides and try to not let groupthink take me too much in any one direction.
I will be the first to admit...... I take a VERY hardline in terms of Gubbermint and financial instutions and the abilty in infulence markets to the detriment of the shareholders/ customers at large if the situations calls for it. When the smoke clears...... you place more trust in the institutions that I do ... and I certainley respect you on that ... It is not my place to try and convince somebody. I only lay out facts as I percieve them and sometimes people agree with my postion and sometimes they do not . Like I said..... I really, really , realy , hope it goes down the way you think.That would be a best possible outcome for all of here I would suppose. I dont care to be right( who the hell wants to be remebered for preaching about a catastrophe?). As long as veiwpoints are respected (which they are)We will just agree to disagree. Stepping down off soap box and polishing tin foil hat. T

Argentsum | 04-14-2008 02:41 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Although I hold out the possibility of gold confiscation, I have no idea what the probability would be. Given that the value of the dollar will continue to fall until such time as foreign central banks/investors decide they've had enough. At which time our money will be worthless in international trades.... We invaded two countries on the other side of the world because a dozen people commandeered two planes and drove them into a pair of skyscrapers. Now imagine what our country would do if a couple of countries stopped purchasing federal debt thus causing an economic crisis throughout our country. Regardless of insolvency of our credit/money the U.S. will still need international trade at least in terms of oil imports. If it cannot be done using worthless dollars, the government will have to purchase its oil using whatever foreigners will still accept. I would assume that gold, silver, platinum and other commodities would still be acceptable. The logic runs out of steam at this point as even with a confiscation, the value of PMs in private hands as a nation would only fund our oil imports for... what? Three or four months? More likely to my way of thinking is that soft commodities, i.e. food would be exchanged. Selling Carbohydrates for Hydrocarbons as it were. Under such a scenario food and oil would skyrocket in price leaving the pawnshops filled with jewelry. PMs would have a difficulty maintaining value. At least that's the scenario I am invisioning. I'll be the first to admit there are many times many other possibilities which is why PMs still find a place in my portfolio. PMs might take a haircut but they will never go to zero value. :D

seppuku | 04-14-2008 05:22 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions Putting your Gold n precious metals in a SDB may be even a worse proposition than putting your money in pool accounts on Kitco or Goldmoney or the PerthMint. Most banks/institutions won't insure against losses. Max is $1000. There is very little protection. I know of cases where assets can be forfeited for a variety of reasons. In case of lawsuits your assets can be frozen. The govn't can come up with any sort of excuse to seize your assets, if you don't fall well within the line. This sort of thing has been discussed by Doug Casey, Marc Faber, et.al. 2 great investors, gold bugs. They both recommend not putting your gold or silver inside the US where there is high risk of confiscation. To each his own. I am not to convince anybody where to put or safeguard their money. These are my opinions only.

Raccoon | 04-14-2008 05:47 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions seppuku: you didn't read the thread, right? "This sort of thing has been discussed by Doug Casey, Marc Faber, et.al. 2 great investors, gold bugs. They both recommend not putting your gold or silver inside the US where there is high risk of confiscation." Do you have any links for this? It seems to me that you may have totally misunderstood what DC said recently.

Seleukus Nikator | 04-14-2008 06:59 PM
Re: safe deposit box storage conditions [quote] Quote:
Originally Posted by seppuku (Post 1061637) Putting your Gold n precious metals in a SDB may be even a worse proposition than putting your money in pool accounts on Kitco or Goldmoney or the PerthMint. Most banks/institutions won't insure against losses. Max is $1000.
I disagree. I would not use pooled accounts. There is little comparison. In one case you are able to access the boxes during regular bank hours and you know where they are and nobody else does. Nobody knows what they are. There is no "paper trail" if you want to call it that. But the way the banks set them up, you have the keys, and the banks cant open them without them. Evidently a lot of people reading and commenting on this thread dont have boxes and arent aware of the details. Quote:
There is very little protection. I know of cases where assets can be forfeited for a variety of reasons. In case of lawsuits your assets can be frozen. The govn't can come up with any sort of excuse to seize your assets, if you don't fall well within the line.
I am not going to waste too much time on this, but suffice to say I am very familiar with both pre judgment attachment and post judgment remedies. Apparently you do not because you are alluding to these things in an oblique fashion. That is fine, I am not insulting you, but your seem to be ignorant of these remedies as most people are. Its beyond the scope of our original conversation, anyways, from the start I excluded private lawsuits from what we were discussing in this thread where risk of "confiscation" is concerned. However, if this is a topic which interests you or anyone else, and you want a good book about asset protection, I will tell you one of the best written by one of the most knowledgeable lawyers. However the writ-writers that sometimes frequent this board may know his name and will not like him because one of his hobbies is to expose tax protest frauds. His name is Jay Adkisson and the book is Asset Protection, Concepts, Strategies for PRotecting your Weatlh. Get it off amazon. I have the book and can say from both education and experience that this book is worth its weight in gold, quite literally, if you are threatened with the possibiity of lawsuits. It's not an issue for me personally. Quote:
This sort of thing has been discussed by Doug Casey, Marc Faber, et.al. 2 great investors, gold bugs. They both recommend not putting your gold or silver inside the US where there is high risk of confiscation.
I dont know who these guys are and if they think there is a "high risk of confiscation" then they are smoking crack. There is some risk which reasonable people will almost all agree is very low especially when compared to the risk of home burglary and theft.

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