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- - Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=211049)

UberNoob | 12-12-2007 12:13 AM
Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? I pulled the trigger on a coin earlier. It was a Morgan dollar....and the cost of it (and the shipping) was lower than the stated Red Book value.....(but obviously over melt value) Sure...a coin is worth only as much as a person will pay for it.... But let's assume that the grade I gave it by viewing its picture is actually correct. LET ME REPEAT THAT FOR YOU IDIOTS WHO WILL TELL ME THAT THE QUALITY WILL BE LOWER....AND THAT THEY ARE FREAKIN' AWESOME BECAUSE THEY BOUGHT SOMETHING FOR 7.9848423312 X FACE VALUE TODAY (I'm just trying to get a sense of the market) If I hold on to the coin...is there a possibility that it will decrease in value? Basically....does the value of numismatic quality of silver coins depreciate.... Thank you.....

65gt350 | 12-12-2007 01:19 AM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? I think you would need to provide more information to get a better response. If you can let us know year and mint mark along with the grade you assigned you might get a better answer. One of the reasons why a coin may depreciate in value is that better coins may come into the market thereby driving your value down. If you bought a VAM this is entirely possible. However, if you just pulled the trigger on an EF 1893S I think you will do okay long term. You might want to check the Greysheet before you put down serious money on a coin in the future. I like using the Redbook for pulling mintage but not for pricing. 65GT30

twenty4karat | 12-12-2007 01:52 AM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Quote:
Originally Posted by UberNoob (Post 870565) I pulled the trigger on a coin earlier. It was a Morgan dollar....and the cost of it (and the shipping) was lower than the stated Red Book value.....(but obviously over melt value) Sure...a coin is worth only as much as a person will pay for it.... But let's assume that the grade I gave it by viewing its picture is actually correct. LET ME REPEAT THAT FOR YOU IDIOTS WHO WILL TELL ME THAT THE QUALITY WILL BE LOWER....AND THAT THEY ARE FREAKIN' AWESOME BECAUSE THEY BOUGHT SOMETHING FOR 7.9848423312 X FACE VALUE TODAY (I'm just trying to get a sense of the market) If I hold on to the coin...is there a possibility that it will decrease in value? Basically....does the value of numismatic quality of silver coins depreciate.... Thank you.....
Every Numismatic coin that I have, have all increased in value. Most slabbed, some not slabbed (but would grade MS 63 or better if I could afford to send them all in. The only time that I have heard of a Numi loosing value, was when somewhere there has been Mint bags full of the same coin sitting in an obscure vault since the day they were minted. There is one more however. That would be freshly minted coins that have been brought up from the ocean floor when the transport ship that they were on had been discovered. One of those coins would be the 1857 S Liberty $20 Double Eagles that were found on the The S.S. Central America. The S.S. Central America carried as cargo most of the San Francisco’s mint production of $20 Liberties for the year 1857. Embarking from Panama, the S.S. Central America sailed around Cuba on its way to New York, but tragically sank off the coast of Virginia in foul weather. The wreck was discovered in 1989, and it has taken until now to untangle the legalities of ownership and dispersal rights. Prior to the discovery of the wreck, only about 35 coins dated 1857-S were known to exist in uncirculated condition. According to the April 2000 PCGS population report, there are now more than 3,200! One astonishing fact about the S.S. Central America hoard is the complete lack of diversity in the group. Approximately 95% of the coins recovered are 1857-S $20 gold pieces; there is no depth or real secondary choices from this incredible find. http://tigerhawk.blogspot.com/2007/0...-of-black.html This is one of many cases. There have also been hoards found in private collector's estates. I hope this helps you out. One more thing though, there is no reason to call fellow GIMer's Idiots or to put down the fact that they may have found great deals. We all don't agree on everything, yet we seam to be able to dialogue without resorting to juvenile name calling. Just my point oh two. Maranatha, :smile:

RossL | 12-12-2007 06:51 AM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? if you clean it, it will lose value. Buy an air-tite holder for it.

UberNoob | 12-12-2007 07:33 AM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty4karat (Post 870631) One more thing though, there is no reason to call fellow GIMer's Idiots or to put down the fact that they may have found great deals. We all don't agree on everything, yet we seam to be able to dialogue without resorting to juvenile name calling. Just my point oh two. Maranatha, :smile:
Thanks for your help....and you're right.... I had just stepped out of the "Faith and Religion" section...so I had a bit of an attitude....my bad.

Silverity | 12-12-2007 08:40 AM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? 1 Attachment(s) I think the following graph answers your question. It is the PCGS Morgan and Peace dollar index since 1970.

AuNuggets | 12-12-2007 03:13 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Starting off by addressing someone you are asking help of as "IDIOT" is probably not the best place to begin. With that said, there has been more "dollar depreciation" in the numismatic market due to overgrading than any other factor. Grading is not a scientific absolute......there are always opposing opinions, especially between a buyer and a seller...... downgrade when you buy, overgrade when you sell...... the usual routine. Then there is "grade creep" over a period of time. A good example are the old "green lable" PCGS holders that commonly demand higher prices than newer PCGS slabbed coins. Prices rise and fall in numismatics according to supply and demand, just as according to popularity of a particular issue. "...a coin is worth only as much as a person will pay for it...." Generally true, though it's really more a matter of "finding the right buyer for the coin" than accepting a low-ball offer. Red Book values are nothing much more than retail estimates that are usually complied at least a year in advance. Prices may have risen or fallen before or since publication of your particular issue. Short answer...... YES, numismatic coins can fall in value...... or rise in value...... or stay the same. No market is constant or static in nature, none "always rise" or "always fall". Most values are simply judged by what a particular coin will bring on the current open market according to accurate grading, popularity, scaricity, market conditions, and other factors.

The Great Ag | 12-12-2007 05:11 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Numismatic coins are a commodity just like anything else; they rise and fall based upon supply and demand. It is similar to the stock market, except numismatics cannot go to 0FRNs. One coin can skyrocket and make a fortune, another can plummet and you can wait decades to try and recoup. General speaking anything 1850 or earlier is a good investment for now, and more expensive. The Great Ag

Jonas Parker | 12-13-2007 04:09 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? I'm a newbie, and no coin collector. Having said that, I feel that in a TEOTWAWKI situation, a coin will only worth the metal. To sell rare coins at their "value", you require people with "cash" and a desire to buy rare coins. What will be "cash" when the SHTF? Probably gold and silver coins.

Anty Ep | 12-13-2007 06:12 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? there are two components to value here, the metal value and the numi value. the easiest way to understand it is that the metal value is a floor and the numi is a premium. the interesting thing is that when the gold or silver price spikes, a lot of "numismatic" coins get melted just for bullion value. or that's what happened back when the Hunt bros tried to corner silver, so I've heard. a quasi numismatic bullion coin like a St Gaudens has a certain premium associated with type, scarcity, and condition-- but for most of them the larger component of value is the POG. I personally prefer sovereign minted coins over rounds, and the older the better. Right now, there are a lot of gold fractionals for sale at apmex if you want to pick up some low-markup french and swiss gold francs. I really prefer that stuff to bars which to me are very boring and krugers which are ugly as hell.

erichops | 12-14-2007 12:24 AM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? "Every Numismatic coin that I have, have all increased in value." what is your basis for that statement??? If you are making that statement based out of what the blue book says or the red book, or even what the greysheet says, it is most likely not accurate. the only way to judge if your coins have increased in value is to take them to several different coin buyers/dealers and ask them what they would pay you for them. ebay seems to be a good way to move coins for retail instead of wholesale (which is what you will get from a coin dealer). But, your ebay fees, paypal fees, etc which have to be taken account of, and , it can take considerable time to move a large amount of coins. I find your statement almost impossible to believe. I have collected coins (many of them key pieces) since I was young, in the mid 1970's, and most of my coins, might, might, be worth what I paid for them today. A few are somewhat higher, some pretty close, and quite a few lower. dealing with silver and gold coins that carry a numismatic value in addition to their silver or gold content is somewhat different. When silver is in a bull mkt (like it is now) almost all numismatic silver coins rise in value, just because of the silver value. I have noticed that it also tends to raise their numismatic value also because of the bull mkt bias. But, when the silver mkt goes down, the value of coins usually drops right with the silver mkt, and, in many cases those coins also suffer an additional drop in numismatic value because nobody wants to hold a silver numismatic coin that is going lower just because of the silver mkt. Buying numismatic gold and silver coins, in a silver or gold bull mkt, CAN (not always) be a good way to play a silver or gold bull mkt, because the numismatic aspect tends to leverage the investment. But, spreads can be horrible on numismatic coins, unless you do your homework. Making money from collecting coins is a difficult business at best. To accurately figure out what your coins are worth, you have to take them to a buyer and find out what he will give you for them. The numbers you get of these books means absoloutly nothing. There have been many coin collectors who thought there coins were worth a lot more than they were based on some values they got for them out of a book or coinworld magazines.

AuNuggets | 12-14-2007 09:19 AM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Quote:
Originally Posted by erichops (Post 873774) . "........... it can take considerable time to move a large amount of coins. .
You're not just whistling dixie !! It can take literally YEARS to dispose of a large accumulation of "numismatic" coins, but just one phone call and one trip to the post office, and you can sell most any amount of bullion gold in a matter of a few days. "Liquidity" is one concern often overlooked by numismatic collectors who more often than not find themselves in a situation of having to wait for months or years to totally dispose of a large collection, or to "take it or leave it" on lowball dealer offers if they are in a hurry for their money. Numismatics are almost always a "buyers market" with value dictated by what the buyer is willing to pay. It is nearly impossible to tally the "worth" or value of a collection in that regard. Red Book, Grey Sheet, Blue Sheet, CW Trends, or whatever you use as your basis of value is nothing more than a "guide" and unfortunately not very accurate when it comes down to the nitty-gritty of selling a collection of numismatic coins, even worse in slow or falling markets. There are alot of factors involved in liquidation other than just "what the book says" your coins are worth. If you have a high percentage of un-slabbed coins in your collection, and are trying to determine their market value by the common guides, you are just fooling yourself..........

Anty Ep | 12-14-2007 11:09 AM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? the price of majorly scare and rare coins of high quality does not tend to go down but up. those coins are EXPENSIVE. the usual piffle sold and collected as "numismatic" is usually neither rare nor scare, and when its of the highest quality its abundant. when I say piffle, I include pretty much everthing which I own. I had fun collecting piffle, though, and try to get as good of prices as I can find. I am realistic to understand that, unless I want to go to the trouble of piece-selling everything out on ebay, I would at best break even, if the prices for pms stay where they are. Now there are books you should read if you want to learn about this and just start with the Red Book and also books by Scott Travers. I like this book "88 coins " or something like that-- 44 he says are going up and 44 he says are going down. On that list, out of his recommendations almost NONE of the "buys" are to be had under a hundred per coin. Most not under a thousand. So numismatic trading for investment purposes, requires a decent outlay. Here is another good article. Quote:
http://www.numismedia.com/law/01-08-23.shtml<TABLE cellSpacing=8 cellPadding=2 width="100%" align=center><TBODY><TR><TD align=left width="100%">Salomon Brothers 2001 Review Show Coins Good Investment http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif by David L. Ganz http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif Column 15 - August 23, 2001 </TD><TD align=right></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=5 cellPadding=2 width="90%" align=center><TBODY><TR><TD align=left> http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif Rare coins and other tangible assets still can out-pull the stock market in the short-run, and in the long-run, can give stability to an investment portfolio. That's the inescapable conclusion of a new examination of the key components that once comprised the annual Salomon Brothers survey of tangible assets. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif Salomon Brothers released its first study of tangible assets some 23 years ago this past June, in 1978. To the surprise of many on Wall Street, and elsewhere, rare coins turned out to be a long-term investment vehicle that outperformed equities. The coin market exploded as a result of the survey and a variety of other economic factors. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif For a dozen summers that followed, the Salomon Brothers examinations were closely watched by many investors, as well as collectors -- all of whom wondered how an objective examination of the rare coin market would fare. A number of other tangible asserts were also brought into the comparison. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif The Salomon Brothers survey met its demise in the 1990's, a victim of its success. The Federal Trade Commission complained that it was being misused by the unscrupulous who failed to properly disclaim what needed to be disclaimed -- and to advise readers of the fundamental weaknesses in the rare coin market. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif Re-creations of that list in the year 2001, and a comparison with years past, show that the rare coin market remains a strong vehicle even as the Dow and precious metals rise, and fall, with regularity. The irony is that as the Dow Jones industrial average shoots up, and down, a hundred points at a clip, coins have held solidly without the volatility associated with the stock market; and that there remains a strong trend-line that points positively for the future. http://www.numismedia.com/law/images/sb20014.jpg http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif In the not-so-distant past, if the Dow moved 10 points, it made the front pages of the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and other financial dailies. Today, even 100 point changes in a session achieves little more than a yawn. In fact, even when the Dow moves two percent in a single day, it may make headlines, but investors have become jaded. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif Salomon Brothers' survey compared rare coins with the Consumer Price Index; with the stock or equities market; with bonds, stamps, Chinese ceramics, farmland, gold, silver, Old Masters paintings, foreign exchange, diamonds and even Treasury bills. For tangible assets, a variety of reliable sources were utilized for the information. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif Results of the annual survey, which considered a market basket of type coins, of silver dollars, subsidiary and minor coinage (but no gold coins) were consistently impressive, showing that over long periods of time, rare coins had a solid track record that regularly went up. Gold coins were omitted because private gold ownership was relatively new and there was a fear that it would skew the results. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif Initial showings in 1978 were that stocks had grown 2.8% annually over the prior 10-year period (1968-78), while bonds in the same decade rose 6.1% -- the precise change of the consumer price index. That mirror meant that there was essentially no growth after inflation was taken into account. It is taken as proof by the Wall Street crowd that the bond market indeed doesn't always grow, but can sometimes be stagnant. (Over the long run, stocks remain a good investment). http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif By contrast, rare coins in that first survey had shown a consistent 13% annual return, the same as Old Masters -- works of art that had not yet exploded to the stratospheric proportions that made the front page of prestigious daily newspapers in the 1990's. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif Heading the list, then, was Chinese ceramics (with 19.2% return) and gold bullion, with a 16.3% compounded annual rate. Chinese ceramics popularity had a lot to do with the fact that China had just re-opened to trade with the west after years of being buttoned down to a communist system of economics. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif Gold's activity in the free-market was relatively new (private gold ownership had only seriously begun in 1975 in the United States), and the meteoric rise of 1980 had yet to be recorded -- as well as the precipitous decline in later years that has left gold bugs scratching their heads. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif The inclusion of gold was at once a benefit and a curse. The bad part is that it gave Salomon an excuse not to include gold coins in the coin investment equation. The good part is that it shows what a meteoric rise the metal had, and how it has struggled since the 1980's to regain a foothold in serious investment portfolios. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif Still, what gave mettle to the study was that a highly respected firm on Wall Street created it, and that others therefore viewed it seriously not in the collectibles field. Just how serious was seen in a government study. The New England Economic Review, a publication of the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, made the study the focus of an article in May, 1979, entitled, "Are Stocks a Bargain." (It concluded that stocks were well off their historical rate of return and hence were in fact a bargain). http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif In comparing rare coins with other indicia of investment vehicles that included farmland, stocks, bonds, stamps, Chinese ceramics, and other tangible assets, Salomon Brothers requested that a model portfolio be built to act as a market-basket. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif A market-basket can best be described as something like the Dow-Jones Industrial Average, 30 key stocks that are broadly representative of all industrial stocks, or the Standard & Poor 500 -- a still broader index. The market basket gives a good general picture of what is transpiring, and how it contrasts over a long period of years, but it is hardly perfect. The Dow Jones Industrial Average, which has been around for more than a century, is one such focal point. But there are those who prefer to look at the NASDAQ, and its index. There are certainly other indices that have been, and will be, used to examine coin price trends. http://www.numismedia.com/law/images/sb20015.jpg http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif Over time, the Dow's composition has changed as companies have merged, gone out of business, or simply been bypassed by time itself. (Today, only General Electric Company is around of the original stocks in the first Dow Jones Industrial Average). Indeed, in the year 2001, Salomon Brothers itself is now a part of Smith Barney, which in turn is a part of the Citicorp group - a virtual bygone name from an era of the past. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif The coin prices that are used to analyze the index have changed, too, through the years -- not by date, type or denomination, but in some instances by grade. The reason has as much to do with the mechanics of reporting, as it does to changes in grading terminology. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif Early on, for example, typical coin prices in many earlier years simply weren't shown for every grade and condition. The extremely fine 1793 large cent, for example, contained in the Salomon market basket wasn't even listed in the 1947 edition of the Guide Book of U.S. Coins (by Yeoman). The maximum condition then was fine. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif All of this makes a long-term examination and comparison difficult, but not impossible -- if you're willing to settle for long-term trend lines, and themes, rather than pinpoint accuracy, which is nearly impossible -- and assuming that you accept that the cataloguer and researcher is an honest broker of information. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif Like the Dow Jones average, which neither represents all publicly held companies, or even all significant stocks that trade on the exchange -- each coin in the portfolio is broadly representative of the marketplace as a whole, and to that extent, its trend-line symbolizes what the market actually does. http://www.numismedia.com/law/images/sb20017.jpg http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif The firm chosen by Salomon Brothers to perform the function of monitor, Stack's of New York City, selected components of the rare coin portion of the Salomon study. According to one of its principals, Harvey G. Stack, the index was never formulated with the intention of showing that rare coins were an investment, per se. Instead, the market basket chosen constituted coins that were selected principally because they were type coins that might be found in a serious collection, but not necessarily by a collector who viewed only the best condition possible as worthy of inclusion in the collection. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif No doubt, a substantial amount of capital would be tied up in these coins, but they did not necessarily constitute an investment, except to the extent of course that any purchase retained over time has a definitive value. None of the 20 coins included in the market basket were of gem quality; most were choice uncirculated, the equivalent of MS-63 on most of the numerical grading scales that are now employed. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif If gold coins had been added to the component, it would only have made for an even greater rate of return. One need only look at the collection of Harold Bareford, the New York attorney who acquired an extraordinary collection of gold coins from 1945-1954 at a cost of $14,000. When his collection was sold in 1978 by Stack's, it realized over $1.3 million. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif Although not initially revealed, because of a fear of market manipulation, the list of silver and minor coins that were included in the Salomon Brothers annual survey of collectibles were first made public by Neil S. Berman and Hans M.F. Schulman in their guide book on rare coin investment, The Investors Guide To United States Coins (Coin & Currency Institute, 1986). http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif 1794 Liberty cap half cent, extremely fine 1795 draped dollar, uncirculated 1807 draped bust dime, uncirculated 1815 bust half uncirculated 1834 bust half dollar, uncirculated 1847 seated dollar, uncirculated 1855-O seated half dollar 1862 half dime 1862 3 cent silver 1866 liberty seated dime 1866 nickel with rays, brilliant proof 1873 arrows quarter 1876 20 cent piece 1881 trade dollar 1884-S Morgan 1886 seated quarter 1916 quarter, uncirculated 1921 Walking Liberty half dollar 1928 Hawaiian commemorative half http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif The listing includes a half cent, a two and three cent (nickel) piece, a 5 cent coin, a silver trime or three cent piece, a half dime, two dimes, a 20 cent piece, three quarters, four half dollars of regular issue, three silver dollars and a single commemorative half dollar. http://www.numismedia.com/art/1x1.gif CONTINUED ON PAGE 2 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

aikitrader | 12-14-2007 01:24 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Then there is buying the way I try to do. I try to buy modern US or Canadian commerative silver/gold coins at bullion value. So I have two or three things at least at work for me that can drive up the coin's value. 1. Bullion content value 2. Nuisimatic value and to a lesser extent, but on some sets of coins I own 3. Exchange rate conversion

Paranoid Android | 12-14-2007 08:02 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? I guess it's already been said but most numismatic coins are probably a lousy investment. I've spent about 20 years putting together a collection that likely isn't worth squat to a coin dealer but I don't really care. Old coins are a part of history that you can hold in your hand and enjoy. Isn't it remarkable that something that circulated hundreds of years ago and passed down through the generations can still be bought so cheap? Heck, you might even get some return on investment... I have sold coins for a profit before but not very often. It really has to be something you do because you enjoy it. If you can make some money too, then that is just an added bonus.

DrillAndFill | 12-14-2007 08:08 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid Android (Post 875234) I have sold coins for a profit before but not very often. It really has to be something you do because you enjoy it. If you can make some money too, then that is just an added bonus.
Those old double eagles are tempting -- such beautiful coins -- but I don't bite. Numismatics for fun, bullion for investment. I would only use the most speculative slice of my fun money for numismatics. I personally feel that Krugerrands are the prettiest coins out there, for reasons having nothing to do with their looks. Those 100-Corona restrikes are available closer to melt, though, which makes them even prettier. What is it with coins bearing likenesses of men with massive facial hair?

Paranoid Android | 12-14-2007 08:31 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Quote:
Originally Posted by DrillAndFill (Post 875241) I personally feel that Krugerrands are the prettiest coins out there, for reasons having nothing to do with their looks. Those 100-Corona restrikes are available closer to melt, though, which makes them even prettier. What is it with coins bearing likenesses of men with massive facial hair?
yeah, the Krugerrand and 100 Corona are the manliest of gold coins... not petite little dime-sized girly pretty coins like some of the others. they're not as manly as silver, but still...

Master_Ho | 12-14-2007 08:38 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Well, not to disagree - cause I don't disagree - but I have a number of old US gold coins - mainly St Gaudins - which I paid $100-200 under current spot price for.......and only a few dollars more than bullion at that time.......all are valued at four nice digits......so they can be a decent investment in the right hands.

thrifty_bob | 12-16-2007 05:02 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Same here. My old stuff has appreciated more than bullion coins would have, and because they are standard fare, they'd be very easy to sell quickly if I wanted to. I never sell any, though. Anyone buying anything as an investment should realize that its value can go up or down depending on supply and demand. The one thing different about coins bought near bullion price is that they will still have SOME value, because gold just isn't that easy to find and dig, and they aren't making more of the old coins, so as time goes by they eventually become more rare.

Maple Leaf Steve | 12-16-2007 07:52 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? In a recession numismatic coins will lose their value. You guys are all pretty smart and should be able to figure out why. ----------------------------------------------------------------- If the "Sh*t Hits The Fan" in this country then a slabbed Morgan dollar is only worth an oz. of silver. Anotherwards... coins will have no numismatic value once society breaks down and all hell breaks loose in this country. --------------------------------------------------------------------- This is why I don't own numismatic coins, as I don't want to get caught holding the bag and losing my A$$ owning collector coins. MLS

Master_Ho | 12-16-2007 08:52 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leaf Steve (Post 877702) In a recession numismatic coins will lose their value. You guys are all pretty smart and should be able to figure out why. ----------------------------------------------------------------- If the "Sh*t Hits The Fan" in this country then a slabbed Morgan dollar is only worth an oz. of silver. Anotherwards... coins will have no numismatic value once society breaks down and all hell breaks loose in this country. --------------------------------------------------------------------- This is why I don't own numismatic coins, as I don't want to get caught holding the bag and losing my A$$ owning collector coins. MLS
And you know this from.............what?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Experience? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Research?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Or are you just guessing your butt off and passing it off as knowledge???<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> From what I have read - even in the darkest times in this country - there were people with money who bought things of value - even if not for full value.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> And when I hear people talk about what will happen WTSHTF - I always look for those who state their OPINIONS as FACT! <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Cause - most who do that (all who do that) haven't lived thru TSHTF - or even the depression!!! Even in my case, my grandparents did - I heard stories - but I suspect NO ONE on this site lived thru it.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Don't take this post personally - its not about "you" - its a reaction to two years of constantly being told (mainly from the younger people, I have no idea how old you are so I am not putting you in that group) what will or will not happen WTSHTF, whose main point of reference is Mad Max and similar movies. They are guessing!<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> First - no has to accept TS Will HTF to that extent - and I have said in well over 2000 posts that is POSSIBLE, but not PROBABLE we'd need up in that dire a situation - humans have a way of muddling thru and somehow society would PROBABLY hold together with bartering, new currencies and a few years of darkness before things recover somewhat..........and, second, that no one here (myself included) knows what would happen if it did cause, it could go down any of a thousand different ways!<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Unfortunately, and I have said this many times before, many posters here do not know the difference between a FACT and a firmly held OPINION. (Opinions hold value - facts, research and knowledge hold even MORE value!)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> HOWEVER - having said that - one final thought............assume you are right..........if things get that bad, the odds are (notice I do not claim to KNOW) that the price of gold and silver would go up SO much that semi-numismatics (not high end ones) would be worth alot more than they are now just for the silver content and no one is going to complain they didn't get a premium over the metal price. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> If gold goes to $3000 its a hell of a lot more than my semi-numismatic St Gaudens are worth now! With my Morgans - except for a few - $100 silver wouldn't break my heart.......<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Cheers!<o:p></o:p>

Master_Ho | 12-16-2007 09:23 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Quote:
Originally Posted by naccarato (Post 877859) I see it that way you do in your last sentence Master-Ho. The explosive rise in Gold and Silver will make the point moot. I actually do think that after the big rise in Gold and Silver that would be the time to transfer your bullion into Numismatic coins. Gold peaked in 1980 but Numismatics took the rally in gold coins and Silver coins to 1989. Same thing might happen again.
It certainly might. I think each of us has diferent ideas of what we'd do at the top depending on our situations........for example - I do not own my own home - I rent from a family in-law (well, ex in-law but thats ok - and VERY glad I DO rent and not own) and I keep thinking - if home prices drop as much as I think, and hear from some, I might be able to get a lovely home for a fraction of todays prices. After that - not sure..........heard the Mogambo suggest at THAT time bonds might be good.......by then the market might be a great place to invest with stocks cheap and nowhere to go but up........and I would love to go the numismatic route......... Or even better - buy that bordello I have always wanted!!! :wink:

Master_Ho | 12-16-2007 09:44 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Quote:
Originally Posted by naccarato (Post 877890) Bordello is definetly a good idea.
I think so - a great investment - plus the girls would work a lot cheaper than today............. Any chance you could call and convince my wife?????

Maple Leaf Steve | 12-16-2007 09:45 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? After the SHTF in this country who is going to buy you guy's baseball cards? NOT ME! LOL And you coin collectors don't try to sell me any of your red colored slabbed MS 60 wheat pennies. LOL After the SHTF I don't even want to look at you guy's purty little collector pennies and nickels. Because my collection of 9mm hand gun bullets will be worth thousands of $$$$$ more than your pretty little slabbed MS 63 dimes! :) Baseball Cards, Pezz Dispensers and collector coin prices are all speculative. They have no set price, they are useless, and you never know what they are worth! :) You guys who collect numismatic coins are lucky you have Ebay available to you to sell your coins. Because there are thousands of suckers who frequent that website who will buy your collector coins at their inflated prices. But after the SHTF then Ebay will disappear. :)

Master_Ho | 12-16-2007 10:40 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leaf Steve (Post 877916) After the SHTF in this country who is going to buy you guy's baseball cards? NOT ME! LOL And you coin collectors don't try to sell me any of your red colored slabbed MS 60 wheat pennies. LOL After the SHTF I don't even want to look at you guy's purty little collector pennies and nickels. Because my collection of 9mm hand gun bullets will be worth thousands of $$$$$ more than your pretty little slabbed MS 63 dimes! :) Baseball Cards, Pezz Dispensers and collector coin prices are all speculative. They have no set price, they are useless, and you never know what they are worth! :) You guys who collect numismatic coins are lucky you have Ebay available to you to sell your coins. Because there are thousands of suckers who frequent that website who will buy your collector coins at their inflated prices. But after the SHTF then Ebay will disappear. :)
You'd better hope you are right about your bullets....I suspect they will be worth something in barter but no one has any idea how much. (After all - once shot, they have zero value!) You did - sort of accidently - hit on something important (at least to me) tho.........all my semi-numismatics (with a couple of very tiny exceptions, many for fun) is in gold and silver - no nickels or copper...... And I don't need Ebay to sell them.......and again, you are making HUGE statements that are opinion, not fact........Ebay might, or might not, be there........ I know that to you and many, your opinions carry so much weight they are fact..........MY concern here is that people reading these posts read statements like that and assume they ARE fact.........they are not.........you do not know whats going to happen any more than I do - all we can do is state our best guesses.......... But while I strive to make it clear I am guessing (tho over the years my guesses have been very good - again, I bought gold in 1979 at $365 and sold at $825; bought platinum at $400 and you can see where it is now).....some people are so full of hot air (not saying you) that they post like its God predicting............. Sure - lets all share our opinions - opinions are fine - but lets state them AS opinions - not like knowledge from on high! Cheers!

thrifty_bob | 12-16-2007 10:40 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Well, if TSHTF I still expect my old Saints and Liberties to be worth at least about the same as 1 oz of gold. And if times are good, demand will define a premium over the bullion in them. Either way, the downside is limited to the downside on gold itself. It makes no sense to me why the premium has gone from nothing to $50 per coin in the last few months, but that's the way it is. The dealer was saying premiums on the old coins were rising because they are non-reportable, and more in demand as a result. I've been waiting for the prices to go sub $650 again to buy more, but am losing hope that I'll ever see it again.

budfox | 12-16-2007 11:32 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverity (Post 870805) I think the following graph answers your question. It is the PCGS Morgan and Peace dollar index since 1970.
Could not have said it better. When the G and S bull ends numismatics drop like a stone.

thrifty_bob | 12-17-2007 06:40 AM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Quote:
Originally Posted by budfox (Post 878084) Could not have said it better. When the G and S bull ends numismatics drop like a stone.
You people are being SILLY. They won't drop below spot * content.

Anty Ep | 12-17-2007 09:13 AM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? First off what does it mean "When the S hits the fan." Kings and chieftans rise in every situation. Men who can organize others into social machines of violence. Call them warlords or presidents, any chaos will bring chiefs. Chiefs love gold and always will. There will always be a market for gold. There was no bigger "SHIT THAT HIT THE FAN" than when the Great Khan swept out of the steppes. The mongols genocided entire cities and populations and left mountains of skulls in their wake. And yet the Great Khan had one of the most fantastic hordes of gold in history. Things of beauty are wanted by chiefs, to enhance their glory. Not just bars or ingots. But coins, medallions, and the minted tokens of lost empires, and great hordes of them. So, in the right situation, beautiful things will hold their value-- IF you can hold on to them and have the strength and wits not to be robbed of them.

Master_Ho | 12-17-2007 03:18 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 878496) First off what does it mean "When the S hits the fan." Kings and chieftans rise in every situation. Men who can organize others into social machines of violence. Call them warlords or presidents, any chaos will bring chiefs. Chiefs love gold and always will. There will always be a market for gold. There was no bigger "SHIT THAT HIT THE FAN" than when the Great Khan swept out of the steppes. The mongols genocided entire cities and populations and left mountains of skulls in their wake. And yet the Great Khan had one of the most fantastic hordes of gold in history. Things of beauty are wanted by chiefs, to enhance their glory. Not just bars or ingots. But coins, medallions, and the minted tokens of lost empires, and great hordes of them. So, in the right situation, beautiful things will hold their value-- IF you can hold on to them and have the strength and wits not to be robbed of them.
I keep saying the same thing........if we nuke the entire planet - then I can see gold not being worth anything.........there'd be hardly a human alive to care about it.......but the SHTF crap is mostly fantasy...........and those who go on and on about it can't back their opinions about it with anything but crap from movies.......fiction! (And, over all, I think they tend to be the younger people here - I think most of the older ones are a bit more realistic, having lived thru a lot more of life - but I can't document that.) In terms of reality, the SHTF folks have never seen, nor can they give tangible historical examples, beyond dark periods of a couple of years at most. Ya know - we should organize a small group here at GIM made up of people who are realists - people who understand that, outside of nuclear war or biological plague - human life continues and things continue to have value, even if life gets horribly tough. Hmmmm........... I keep thinking about all those, in the 60's, who knew it was the end of the world any moment and were building fallout shelters. At that time, I thought, if things got that bad - the living would envy the dead, when you came out you wouldn't want to be alive. But - more to the point - it never happened and a lot of people wasted a lot of time, money and effort on something that never happened. (I always say - anything is POSSIBLE but most things are not PROBABLE - unfortunately, that which is not probable is, for those people, a lot more dramatic and exciting - so they focus on it!) Since the beginning of time people have always thought the end of their century was going to be the end of the world.........theres 20 times right there it didn't happen. In fact. I don't think any of the SHTF people can point to ANY time it did!! (After all. we are still here and the worst periods were wars, plagues and famines......ok, and 8 years of Bush.) Oh - it WILL happen one day........but I suspect not a single person here will be around to see it......... So, until then, even if TS DOES HTF on SOME level..........humans will survive and want things of value - and ONE of those things will be gold and another, probably silver, along with food and water....and sex. (Hence that bordello I mentioned earlier in the thread.) These SHTF folks would do well to read a little history about the bleaker times........and watch a little less science-fiction films! ((Speaking of which, I hear "I Am Legend" is pretty good and I doubt he needed gold! :D ))

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Maple Leaf Steve | 12-17-2007 04:04 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? For people like Master_Ho... He has never seen a SHTF scenario in this country and does not believe they can possibly happen and he does not know what they are. May I remind him of what happened in Los Angeles in 1992. The Rodney King riots! (in which 53 people died with over 2,000 injured) Arsonists struck and the Blacks took out their anger on several unguarded businesses. Approximately 3,600 fires were set with over 10,000 people arrested. This happened for several days! More recently when the hurricane Katrina came ashore. This was a SHTF senario in which we all seen it with our own eyes on TV. People walking around for days with no water and no food. Peoples lives were taken if they had fresh water and would not share. Now granted society recovered from these two incidents. The next time society may not recover and it will be country wide.

budfox | 12-17-2007 04:11 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Quote:
Originally Posted by thrifty_bob (Post 878411) You people are being SILLY. They won't drop below spot * content.
I agree, what I was referring to was the huge premiums that will evaporate.

The Great Ag | 12-17-2007 04:26 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leaf Steve (Post 879087) For the ignorant people like Master_Ho...
Hey, ML Steve: Master Ho is many things, philosopher, numismatist, teacher, chef, and something funny but I cannot think of it currently, but he IS NOT ignorant. TS WILL NOT hit the fan country wide, in my opinion. Those that run things know that given an opportunity humans can create a much better system than what the created and manipulated. Things may get difficult but no SHTF scenario will occur. Wanna bet an ounce of gold, Steve? I will. When it comes to gambling I usually lose, so I only bet when I am certain of the outcome. The Great Ag

Anty Ep | 12-17-2007 04:29 PM
advise STFU Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leaf Steve (Post 879087) For the ignorant people like Master_Ho... He has never seen a SHTF scenario in this country and does not believe they can possibly happen and he does not know what they are.
Ha, Steve, best step off your high horse, Mstr Ho is no ignoramus and the more you talk the more you sound like one. Btw you have no clue what he has seen or not seen, so be a little more careful in your remarks would be my suggestion. Quote:
May I remind him of what happened in Los Angeles in 1992. The Rodney King riots! (in which 53 people died with over 2,000 injured) Arsonists struck and the Blacks took out their anger on several unguarded businesses. Approximately 3,600 fires were set with over 10,000 people arrested. This happened for several days!....More recently when the hurricane Katrina came ashore
Good point, and the looters were definitely putting premiums on looting gold jewelry I am sure. This incident does not support your point, whatever it is. Nor does Katrina. In those two SHTF situations gold was a major object of looter desire.

Anty Ep | 12-17-2007 04:32 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho (Post 879028) Ya know - we should organize a small group here at GIM made up of people who are realists - people who understand that, outside of nuclear war or biological plague - human life continues and things continue to have value, even if life gets horribly tough. Hmmmm........... I keep thinking about all those, in the 60's, who knew it was the end of the world any moment and were building fallout shelters. At that time, I thought, if things got that bad - the living would envy the dead, when you came out you wouldn't want to be alive. But - more to the point - it never happened and a lot of people wasted a lot of time, money and effort on something that never happened. (I always say - anything is POSSIBLE but most things are not PROBABLE - unfortunately, that which is not probable is, for those people, a lot more dramatic and exciting - so they focus on it!) Since the beginning of time people have always thought the end of their century was going to be the end of the world.........theres 20 times right there it didn't happen. In fact. I don't think any of the SHTF people can point to ANY time it did!! (After all. we are still here and the worst periods were wars, plagues and famines......ok, and 8 years of Bush.)
The apocalyptic imagination and eschatological inclination runs wild in patriot circles Master Ho. But I am mindful: "you know not when I will return"

Gcubed | 12-17-2007 04:34 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Seen that happen personally. Refined sacks and sacks of beautiful Morgans and Walkers in 1980. No sheet... More value as metal than numismatic. Not enough collectors. Thin market then and now. Quote:
Originally Posted by budfox (Post 879092) I agree, what I was referring to was the huge premiums that will evaporate.

Master_Ho | 12-17-2007 04:41 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leaf Steve (Post 879087) For the ignorant people like Master_Ho... He has never seen a SHTF scenario in this country and does not believe they can possibly happen and he does not know what they are. May I remind him of what happened in Los Angeles in 1992. The Rodney King riots! (in which 53 people died with over 2,000 injured) Arsonists struck and the Blacks took out their anger on several unguarded businesses. Approximately 3,600 fires were set with over 10,000 people arrested. This happened for several days! More recently when the hurricane Katrina came ashore. This was a SHTF senario in which we all seen it with our own eyes on TV. People walking around for days with no water and no food. Peoples lives were taken if they had fresh water and would not share. Now granted society recovered from these two incidents. The next time society may not recover and it will be country wide.
I won't even waste a second dropping to your level of name-calling - that just demonstrated exactly who, and what, you are to all! Second - I live in LA and if you think THAT is TSHTF - grow up! It lasted several days - and if you don't think those idiots (and idiots they are - if you are going to riot, set fire to someone ELSES home, not your own) would have taken gold and silver - well, there is no help for you. They took everything they could, like TV sets (ooooo, THAT sounds like survival mode! NOT!!!!!!). They sure as hell took money and would have taken gold and silver. It did not last weeks, months nor did it change society as we know it - Katrina lasted longer but in both places life goes on as it did before (tho in both places some are still trying to get their lives together, individual life-changes, not society-life changes) - society did not significantly change......and gold and silver still have value.....you just made my point, thank-you! Third - Learn to read........."He has never seen a SHTF scenario in this country and does not believe they can possibly happen"......I have repeatedly said TS MAY HTF, is POSSIBLE, not probable.......and you have not come up with a single instance yet that qualifies for a STHF scenerio! Fourth - "Now granted society recovered from these two incidents.The next time society may not recover and it will be country wide." Again, you just made my point - society recovers - and you can't even come up with a situation that lasted months, let alone years (tho I diod mentioning wars). And, for the record, I have a year's food, I have water, I have water purification systems, guns and ammo, and even nuke meds stored away just in case some thing like that happens (so get off the "he does not believe they can possibly happen" crap cause anyonehere can scroll below and see I have said differently every post!)........but society always has recovered and, short of a nuclear war or plague, will again. NOW - back on your meds and leave the rational people to get on with life. Meanwhile - your post with its name-calling (something I have worked hard not to ever do in two years of being here) just earned you a lack of response from me until there is an apology...........I grew up to try to be a gentleman, even in debates and disagreements........I expect the same from people WORTHY of response. Thank-you!

budfox | 12-17-2007 04:48 PM
Re: Does the value of numismatic quality coins depreciate? Quote:
Originally Posted by Gcubed (Post 879125) Seen that happen personally. Refined sacks and sacks of beautiful Morgans and Walkers in 1980. No sheet... More value as metal than numismatic. Not enough collectors. Thin market then and now.
Absolutey, I'm just waitin for the rocket ship ride on the morgs and peace dollars. I'll probably slab some of the really pretty ones. Before I sell them I'm going to lay them all out on the living room floor and roll around naked on them.:s9:

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