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AgAuGal | 08-18-2005 11:14 PM
Auction help I maybe going to an auction Saturday :yippee: and I know there will be 'lots' of coins. Barbers, halves, 90%. Any ideas on how to determine what to bid without over paying. The coins are in baggies/lots and can't be inspected except from the outside. I saw dimes, halves, silver dollars, foreign coins , Morgans and quarters. There will also be some proof sets which I do not usually collect. I don't think they list face value on the outside so I can't really determine what price I'd be willing to pay based on face value. What do you think would be the best silver items to bid on and how much? Is there a rule of thumb I can follow. I have never bid on coins and don't want to get caught up in the sale fever. Anyone know what a 'Type' coin is? TIA :wavey:

Someone_else | 08-18-2005 11:53 PM
Re: Auction help If I were going to that auction, I would bid up to five times face value of the coins. In other words, there is not the slimmest chance in h**l that I would pay the thinnest penny on the chance that there is some numismatic value to the silver coins. If someone else outbid me and bought the coins for some higher price, then perhaps that person is more knowlegable than I and deserves to profit from his or her investment in time and effort in the trade. Or perhaps the highest bidder is just some chump that has no idea how badly he is throwing his money away... And if turned out that I were the high bidder, then I could feel secure that even if the coins turned out to be one hundred percent "junk", I still got a fair deal. And if some of the coins did have some collector value, then I would promptly sell them at the coin shop in order to expedite them on their way to eventually reach someone who really does value them because they have some particular arrangements of numbers and letters on the face. See, everyone is happy :-)

Worldmariner | 08-19-2005 04:03 AM
Re: Auction help Quote:
Originally Posted by AgAuGal I maybe going to an auction Saturday :yippee: and I know there will be 'lots' of coins. Barbers, halves, 90%. Any ideas on how to determine what to bid without over paying. The coins are in baggies/lots and can't be inspected except from the outside. I saw dimes, halves, silver dollars, foreign coins , Morgans and quarters. There will also be some proof sets which I do not usually collect. I don't think they list face value on the outside so I can't really determine what price I'd be willing to pay based on face value. What do you think would be the best silver items to bid on and how much? Is there a rule of thumb I can follow. I have never bid on coins and don't want to get caught up in the sale fever. Anyone know what a 'Type' coin is? TIA :wavey:
Well, it sounds like some good counsel from the other poster to your question. ROughly 5 times face will give you the value of the actual silver in the coin. Or you can try and remember the weights and persentages of every US coing ever minted... *laugh* Just remember... PRE-1964!!!!

AgAuGal | 08-19-2005 04:05 AM
Re: Auction help Thanks for the reply Someone. I would gladly pay up to 5x face but the problem is I don't think they are going to list the face value. The baggies of coins have lot numbers but nothing else. I'd have to take a swag at face value. Kind of like guess how may jelly beans are in the jar.

65gt350 | 08-19-2005 12:43 PM
Re: Auction help How about a portable scale? That way you can weigh the bags and then go do the math while you wait for the auction to get to your lot. 65gt350

me_ummagumma | 08-19-2005 01:45 PM
Re: Auction help it makes no sense that an auctioneer would sell coins without telling you whats in the bags. my guess is that if you bid 5x face you will win every bullion coin lot offered. be cool and provide a floor at 3.75x face and let somebody else bid 5x face. after a few lots sell you'll know if you have to adjust to a higher bid to win a few. probably not. It depends on your local but I'm just going by my experience at a coin auction in my town a few weeks ago. i bought several rolls of 90% at $35 to $38 (a couple at $30). higher than that I let somebody else have them. good luck

agnut | 08-19-2005 02:35 PM
Re: Auction help Hi AgAuGal. Do the bags at least have the number of coins and denominations written on the outside ? Otherwise, it would be a pig in a poke. I have been to auctions and sold and bought on Ebay hundreds of times. You must know what you are buying before bidding. It is like standing at the dock and the ship has sailed without you. So you are sad until you learn that the ship later sank with all hands aboard being eaten by sharks. Quite the picture, huh ? Glad you missed the boat now ? You betcha ! You are wise to have first asked here on the GIM forum as there are so many helpful experienced members. Finally, if you are able to count the number of coins and their denominations, you can calculate what you should be paying. The condition of these coins is important; are they so used that the dates are worn off or are they bent or have holes in them ? If you do find a bargain where they are below 5 times face or whatever you�re comfortable with, be sure that the auction house is not tacking on some buyer�s premium. That alone could sour the deal if you don�t factor that into your final price. A local dealer I know is paying 4.7 times face and his sell price is about 5.4 times face. Of course, the prices change constantly but this should give you some help. In all my precious metal dealings, I have found it almost impossible to score hardly any appreciable percentage advantage. I make my money elsewhere where the prices and values are not so well known and buy my precious metals at the going prices and let time and inflation do their work. I am in the automotive industry and I recently bought a transmission for $50. I know this year and model and it is worth at least $250 to a transmission builder or car owner. I also buy and sell cars the same way. You see, I do what I know best and then invest with the profits. By the way, I was a serious rare coin collector for several years. Now, I just collect enamel on copper paintings. They make me happy and are a bargain. I wouldn�t want to discourage you; quite the opposite as any experience in dealing with others can be rewarding to your knowledge. You should look at this auction clinically, like a lab test and dissect all the activities and other bidders. There may be a false manufactured bidder frenzy; there may be shills who will bid up prices. I wish I could go with you. My son and I have been going to garage sales and he is really getting into it now. Especially since he found a martial arts face mask for $5 that would have cost $54 with tax at the store. The umbrella for 10 cents helped, too. We are going out this weekend for more goodies. I am thinking of buying bargains and collecting them until we have enough for a garage sale of our own. This is good experience for my son and will last him a lifetime. It is a fun and profitable game and I have done it most of my life. A good idea is to go to an auction for the first time and know that you are going to buy nothing. This is not an easy thing to do and should be a clue that you are anxious to dive in before careful study. Buyers regret/remorse is the result of poor planning/emotional bidding. At least, take only a small amount of money to bid with; that way you will not overspend. Let us know how things work out at the auction. Best wishes, agnut

The Argent Dragon | 08-19-2005 05:16 PM
Re: Auction help Quote:
Originally Posted by AgAuGal Anyone know what a 'Type' coin is? TIA :wavey:
"TYPE" coins are a reference to the design in lieu of a specific date. For example, an 1878 silver dollar is a 'Morgan'. Morgan is 1 type. If one were to have a 'type' collection of silver dollars, then you'd have 1 of each design : a seated dollar, a morgan dollar, a peace dollar, an eisenhower dollar, a susan b anthony dollar, and a sacajawean dollar....... Thus the dates do not matter - only the design. :proud:

FooBooZibZab | 08-19-2005 06:39 PM
Re: Auction help What I've done in the past is lay the baggie out as flat as possible. With just your eyes, draw an imaginary square about 2 inches by 2 inches in one corner, and then quickly count the face value in that square, then multiply it out for the whole bag to get a rough estimate of the face value. Then bid low... 4x face or less in case you are underestimating. You can test your skills tonight if you have some coins... put them in a baggie and practice. You might surprise yourself on how close you can get. I wouldn't know where to start on foreign coins though. Good Luck, I hope you win!

AgAuGal | 08-19-2005 07:30 PM
Re: Auction help Thanks everyone, great ideas. I have seen pictures now of many of the items I am interested in but still no specific face value information. I have the chance to view the lots again a few hours before the auction which I am going to do. I have a list of all the lots and I plan to take notes (and any info from the lot labels that make sense to me) next to each one and then determine what I am willing to bid. Based on the pictures I saw compared to the baggies I am wondering if maybe some of the pictures only had a sample of the contents. I will probably stay away from the foreign coins unless they are going real low. Although I saw a Trinidad and Tabago 1972 set that looked interesting, think it was proof set. Going to be studying the coin book tonight and I'm going to try the idea of making my own baggies and guessing at face value. I also think it is not right that face value is not listed but I look at this as a learning experience and for some fun. I've only been t a couple of auctions in my life and I know how easy it is to get carried away. Thanks again everyone. :clap2:

AgAuGal | 08-21-2005 02:08 PM
Re: Auction help Well what an experience. First it was so hot the bugs were staying in the shade. A very long, hot day. I just didn't realize how long it would take to view everything. I was told this was a light crowd compared to normal. I estimate about 200 people but only a hundred were bidding. Everything I wanted to see were in baggies. We were able to inspect what we wanted but time ran out to inspect everything and I wore out due to the heat and sun on one side of the tent. I spent 2.5 hours viewing items then the auction started. Boy was that guy a fast talker. All the coins were at the end of the auction so I stayed for all the jewelry and other misc items just to get a feel for how to do this and see whaqt things were going for. I'm surprise the auctioneer didn't pass out from the heat in the tent. He mentioned something about being closer to heaven than the rest of us but the heat was confusing him and maybe he wasn't close to heaven afer all. He had a good sence of humor. Frankly I was shocked at what people paid for stuff. A necklace made out of a 50 pesos and 10 - 20 pesos went for $3000. All the jewelry went high I thought but then I don't know much about jewelry. Most of the coins were bid high in my opinion (I was looking for value). I did my homework the night before and tried to determine what my max bid would be for items I was interested in. Unfortunately there was a rule that the items could not go for less than 70% FMV (where some of the bids started made me wonder how they were determining FMV). This was a lerning experience and I paid for it. When I was looking at the items I started marking info down about quantity, quality, etc. However, one of the items I bid on was the first thing I looked at and had not determined yet what info I should write down. Came back to haunt me. I bid on what I thought were Libertads and I forgot to mark down the quantity. So when the Auctioneer said there were 26 I believed him. Found out later he ment there were 26 items in the lot. I did my bid calculation on the 26 so I ended up paying up for the silver content because they were not Libertads (They were ONZAs) and they were .925, not .999. However, there were a few misc coins in the lot that help reduce the cost a bit. There was a Canadian Flying Goose (80%), Mexican Dancing Chief (haven't found the silver content yet but it appears to be .720 fineness) and a Mexican Cien Pesos 20 gr of Ag. There were two other coins that right now I don't think have any value because one I think is a fraud (Hispan Arum Rex 1724 - if this is real it is supposedly worth $100,000 - need to weigh it to be sure but I don't usually have that kind of luck) and the other is a miniature/replica (.25 in in diameter) Candian 1 oz Maple Leaf - l don't think it is worth anything but I can't find any info on it. So far if I have caculated things correctly looks like I paid approx. $12/oz of silver. I bid and got to other lots. One was dimes, I guess about $6.9/oz (not that great a value but have some mercury dimes, also noticed most of the time 40% and 90% were mixed together so it is hard to estimate). They were Roos and Mercs, any specific dates I should look for?? The last lot I did a bit better, 90% quarters I estimate at $4.8/oz. I should have bid one more lot but was not sure I wanted to get in a bidding war (that auctioneer can have you owning something real quick). Ended up I estimate the guy got it for about $4.4/oz. Good experience except for the heat. Thanks for your suggestions and hope you enjoyed the recap. AgAuGal

Someone_else | 08-21-2005 03:18 PM
Re: Auction help Indeed, thanks for sharing your auction experience. Quote:
Originally Posted by AgAuGal ... We were able to inspect what we wanted but time ran out to inspect everything and I wore out due to the heat and sun on one side of the tent. I spent 2.5 hours viewing items then the auction started. Boy was that guy a fast talker. All the coins were at the end of the auction...
It sounds like one of their tactics may be to try to wear you down and decrease your resistance by the time the important goodies come up for bids. I also have to wonder if the auctioneer's cant is also some form of rudimentary hypnosis. The heat probably enhances the effect. Quote:
Originally Posted by AgAuGal Unfortunately there was a rule that the items could not go for less than 70% FMV (where some of the bids started made me wonder how they were determining FMV).
WARNING! DANGER! PERSONAL OPINION FOLLOWS! In my opinion, this is a clear sign of danger. I would be sorely tempted to just get up and walk out, as this sounds to me that they have fraud flowing through their veins, or swindling in their hearts. I suppose some, or perhaps many, of auction goers enjoy the experience as entertainment rather than a place to get a deal on merchandise, so I will not pretend that I speak for those people. If this 70% FMV rule is rare, then I would just avoid those auctions. Or if this is a widespread practice, then I would simply conclude that most auctions are crooked. I don't care if a dozen, a thousand, or million people try to persuade me that it is honest or standard practice, it still sounds crooked and deceitful to me. Since there are apparently so many buyers who wish to overpay for coins, there may be some opportunity to make some money, if you are so inclined. I have just been to a couple auctions, but one of them included items not from the main sale (it was a tech business bankrupcy auction). Apparently the auction house inserted some of their own general merchandise to make some extra profits from the event. I did the pre-auction inspection of the goods, and I am really sure that these extra items were not shown before the auction. Just food for thought if you think you are interested in getting more involved in the auction scene.

Libertarian_Guard | 08-21-2005 07:40 PM
Re: Auction help I enjoyed your ( mis ) adventures here AgAuGal. I also would have had warning flags waving in my thoughts due to how the auction was presented. It should be more obvious to a fellow bug than your average Joe how the buyer needs to beware. Never allow cash in hand to burn a hole in your pocket. You�ve certainly given me some food for thought. Thanks.

AgAuGal | 08-22-2005 12:50 AM
Re: Auction help I need to clarify - the auction was held by the State. The auctioneer was just hired by the State to sell the items. The aution was even on State property. The FMV rule was dictated by the State. The items were unclaimed safety box contents from banks. So the auctioneer was not to blame for the rule.

The Argent Dragon | 08-22-2005 02:53 PM
Re: Auction help Quote:
Originally Posted by AgAuGal ......So when the Auctioneer said there were 26 I believed him. Found out later he ment there were 26 items in the lot. I did my bid calculation on the 26 so I ended up paying up for the silver content because they were not Libertads (They were ONZAs) and they were .925, not .999. .......
I believe "onza" is spanish for ounce. The libertads are the only rounds I'm aware of that have "onza" printed on them. They should be 0.999 pure. As for "certain" dates on your Mercs / Roosevelts, check for : 1916-D worth $750+ 1921 worth $40+ 1921-D worth $55+ 1941/2 or 1942/1 worth $400+ (these are date varieties often referred to as mint 'errors') Also the 1926-S is worth about $7+ which is very possible to find. As for your Roosevelts, the 1949-S is the rarest only bringing $1-$3 each in circulated condition. Glad you did well for your first auction ! :applause_

AgAuGal | 08-22-2005 11:09 PM
Re: Auction help Well after further review I sure didn't get any deals. I estimate I paid 6.87/oz for the Ag I bought at auction. About 4.8x face. Argent, I did some research and there was another coin minted in Mexico called the ONZA. Everything you said about the Libertad is true, it is .999 and is has the word ONZA on it. But the coins I purchased are actually referred to as Mexican Silver ONZA (sometimes people erroneously refer to Libertads as Onza's). The Onza was minted in the late 40's and then brought back into circulation in 1978, 1979 and 1980. They are .925 and have 1 ounce of Ag, thus they are a little bigger than a Libertad. The ones I bought are from 1979 and 80.

The Argent Dragon | 08-23-2005 11:59 AM
Re: Auction help Learn something new everyday, thanks for the clarification. I prefer Libertads........sterling is ok for silverware but I'd rather have .999 in rounds & bars.

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