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Bullionaire | 05-25-2007 09:12 AM
My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered I have had a dealer bullion trade account with Dillon Gage since 1985 and since my retirement, I have been fairly inactive but kept my contacts. I had never in all my years physically gone to a refinery, for years I would just box it, ship it, and pray. During the last month, I have been weeding out my safety deposit boxes for leftover gold undesirables (things I see hard to quickly cash in the future) oddball foreign gold coins, medals, dental gold, placer gold, jewelry, etc along with a handful of Palladium Scrap and a Big Box of old gold filled Eyeglasses,Watch cases etc ....with the intention of refining them and converting proceeds. I made advance arrangements, and drove to Dallas yesterday. I was able, due to my relationship with Dillon Gage, to get a tour behind the scenes, and view the whole process and ask some good questions and am happy to share. The refinery is eqiupped to handle Gold, Silver, & Platinum Group Metals. A lot of the really technical stuff was over my head, so here is the simple version....my gold was melted right before my eyes in an electric furnace crucible it took about 10 minutes for my lot to become molten. I got close enuff to look down into the crucible and watch the items melt like chocolate in the summer sun. As it was melting, I was given a tour...with EPA and all, they had hooded ventilation in all work areas that directed the waste smoke thru a series of scrubbers, I was shown areas with acids, precipitates and the like.....absolutley NO product is wasted, they even recover the absolute leftovers (alloys) copper, nickel etc...after processing they were in a cake form, that could be safely shipped for payment. They had an area for the precipitates that collected in drums...they were recovering even the very small diamonds thru strainers that many dealers do not bother to remove... Back to the gold....after he stirred the molten metal, he took a small rod sampling for assay....next he removed the crucible (about the size of a gallon milk container) and using tongs, poured the molten metal into an iron mold. It cooled rather quickly 15 minutes or so, and he dunked it into water for further cooling....then he lightly buffed it to remove excess impurities. Next heweighs it with the sample piece. It is recorded and the lot number is written on the bar for assaying. He clipped off a piece of the sample rod and handed it to me for verification. I will be notified in a day or so with results. The process was the same for gold filled, only the bar was much bigger and full of much impurity, he commented that 2-3 carat is a good result on Gold-Filled. The palladium was processed with a very hot torch on a work bench it took close to 3000 degrees it produced a small hockey puck size blob. Now here is the good part...I asked some questions that had plaqued me for many years...the biggest one, the lead filled 100 ounce silver bars.... Here is what I was told......it is true , they do exist...the bars affected were the old *early 1980's Engelhard 100 oz extruded bars* His observations were that people bought them and unknowingly sat on them for years waiting for a good sell price. Their heirs (many died waiting) began cashing them in. Lead is perfect, as it has close to the same specific gravity..they apparently drilled three holes thru the side, and lead filled them, smudged silver on the side to cover the holes and machined the edge so you get a 50 oz bar. I asked him in his tenure at Dillon Gage how many he had seen he replied about 1 in 40....one of their people he claimed, can spot them by the edge machining.... .I asked him how they were affected if a bad one got by....he said it does not hurt them too bad, as they deal in 5000 ounce contracts. Dillon Gage actually supplies product to the RCM (Royal Canadian Mint), U.S. Mint and they trade product....that my friends, is a HUGE company. They apparently do deal direct with the public, although you will not get private tour. When I was in the lobby getting ready to leave, an older gentleman had brought in a shoe box full of Silver Shavings? for assay... Not pimping for them, but if you need a QUANTITY of gold or silver processed...(not a single class ring or sterling fork obviously) these people are Super Solid and VERY TRUSTWORTHY...their fees are minimal. Another long lingering question I had answered was the Purity of the Palladium Plus class rings ....I had a couple in my Palladium lot....boy was I shocked.....8%...that is right, 8%....what a rip off... All and all, a fabulous trip and new gain respect for the gold refinery industry...and especially the Gang at Dillon Gage, thanks for the tour.

grapejelly | 05-25-2007 09:19 AM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered thank you very much. What a wonderful post and I am jealous that you got the tour!

Kahlil Gibran | 05-25-2007 09:35 AM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered Thanks Bullionaire for sharing this. GIM on a good day is like watching the Discovery Channel. We can all learn and teach a lot here. :beer:

Floyd | 05-25-2007 09:40 AM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered Bullionaire, Were you given any tips on spotting the leaded bars? Was the ring like a bell test mentioned? Thank you for sharing.

Bullionaire | 05-25-2007 09:51 AM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered I mentioned that I had tried the ring test to no avail, and he did not add anything else...my thought is the ring test may be a fable...they drill 3 holes in the side which would be deep into the interior and surrounded by thick silver walls....

Krugerrand | 05-25-2007 01:44 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered Thanks, Bullionaire... very interesting stuff!

goldminer | 05-25-2007 05:36 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered I echo the thanks; great post. Thanks a lot Bullionnaire. And wow...1 in 40 Engelhard 100 oz bars! That's one heck of a lot of bars. Seems like anybody who trades 'em needs to get some idea of the serial numbers that were used during suspect years. Grandma & I seemingly don't need to worry about that but still, a person could run across a c-ounce bar at a yard sale or someplace at a good price. What to do what to do????? Scary.

ladagerick | 05-25-2007 05:43 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered Thanks great tour!

Texan | 05-25-2007 05:50 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered Great report! :applause_

TomD | 05-25-2007 06:11 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered Let me make sure that I understand what they said. From their experience, one in every forty 100 oz Englehards are lead filled? That would be disastrous. Thanks for the report.

Anty Ep | 05-25-2007 07:38 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered Bullionaire fantastic report thank you kindly. :emotions16:

SilverNuts@Bolts | 05-25-2007 08:25 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered My wife was supposed to take a tour, of the Royal Canadian Mint today. Thax, for the post, mr B.

Bullionaire | 05-25-2007 08:38 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered [QUOTE=goldminer;618927]I echo the thanks; great post. Thanks a lot Bullionnaire. And wow...1 in 40 Engelhard 100 oz bars! That's one heck of a lot of bars. Seems like anybody who trades 'em needs to get some idea of the serial numbers that were used during suspect years. He was referring to the specific extruded variety of Engelhard made in the early 1980's as the affected...NOT the whole gamut of Eng 100 oz ers..

TomD | 05-25-2007 08:49 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered [quote=Bullionaire;619076] Quote:
Originally Posted by goldminer (Post 618927) I echo the thanks; great post. Thanks a lot Bullionnaire. And wow...1 in 40 Engelhard 100 oz bars! That's one heck of a lot of bars. Seems like anybody who trades 'em needs to get some idea of the serial numbers that were used during suspect years. He was referring to the specific extruded variety of Engelhard made in the early 1980's as the affected...NOT the whole gamut of Eng 100 oz ers..
Could you be more specific? Thanks

Bullionaire | 05-25-2007 08:57 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered [QUOTE=TomD;619086] Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire (Post 619076) Could you be more specific? Thanks
No, I do not have the specific knowledge required....this was an off-handed OPINION, not stone hard cold facts. Extruded circa early 1980's only...

goldminer | 05-26-2007 12:26 AM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered It's been my understanding for years that most if not all of the bars produced by Englehard through the 80's were extruded, and that would be alot of bars.

TomD | 05-26-2007 08:21 AM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered Quote:
Originally Posted by goldminer (Post 619296) It's been my understanding for years that most if not all of the bars produced by Englehard through the 80's were extruded, and that would be alot of bars.
Considering that just within my collection of 100 oz Engelhards, the lowest serial # is P070*** and the highest P743***. Plus, I have a JM bar with a serial number of 639***. That means that there are millions of the bars out there. (I'm not certain if there is any bad use to be made from the exact serial numbers of my bars, but I don't want to find out.) Almost all of the Engelhards are extruded, I have one poured bar but it's serial # starts with a W. It would prolly be harder to drill and fill (humm-where have I heard that before?) because it would be very hard to match the texture on the end to cover the holes. I guess that you would only be at risk for serial numbers issued in 1980 and before.

bl96S5eu | 05-26-2007 11:52 AM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered Thanks for the overview Bullionaire, if you go again let us know before the visit and maybe some of us here in TX (this is where you went correct?) could stop by and shoot a video to post. Ok, now we know where our next family getaway will be :bear_original:

AgAuGal | 05-26-2007 12:10 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered Thanks for the post. Wow, 1 in 40, that is much higher than I expected. How could one look at an extruded bar and know if it was from the time they were lead filled. I had actually put this to rest in my mind as no longer a great risk but now I'm not a certain anymore with this refiner's opinion/experience.

tomexxtra | 05-26-2007 12:52 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered How to find out if a silver bar is lead filled? Look at the side of the 100 oz. bar, even polish it if you have to. Their would be two circles shaded differently on the sides. If you see them stay away from the bar. The other test is the "ting" test. Balance a the silver bar on your two fingers, get a silver fork tab it on top of the bar. If you hear a "ting" it is pure silver. If you hear a "thug" it is lead filled. Practice it and you will know what I'm talking about. Good Luck, Tom Exxtra

Satyr | 05-26-2007 12:55 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered 1 in 40 seems like a lot. But I'm sure they don't recirculate them once they find them. I'm sure they melt it down and remove the lead. So the more they find, the less bad bars there are out there. I just received my first 100 oz bar from APMEX about an hour ago. It's one of the "old pour" or "loaf" style bars by JM. The bottom and the sides look rough and slightly pitted from the mold. I'm sure it would be quite difficult to cover any drill holes to the point where you can't tell it's been done. I would be more worried about the nice, square Eng. bars with the smooth sides. It seems like it would be easier to cover up any evidence of tampering.

Bullionaire | 05-26-2007 01:06 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered Quote:
Originally Posted by tomexxtra (Post 619581) How to find out if a silver bar is lead filled? Look at the side of the 100 oz. bar, even polish it if you have to. Their would be two circles shaded differently on the sides. If you see them stay away from the bar. The other test is the "ting" test. Balance a the silver bar on your two fingers, get a silver fork tab it on top of the bar. If you hear a "ting" it is pure silver. If you hear a "thug" it is lead filled. Practice it and you will know what I'm talking about. Good Luck, Tom Exxtra
Where do you get a bad one for practice? When I was in the biz, I "tinged" on a thousand of em and must be tone deaf, most sounded different in some way....have you actually had a bad one for sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt?? Like cut a suspect in half and actually find lead??

Bullionaire | 05-26-2007 01:28 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered Quote:
Originally Posted by AgAuGal (Post 619550) Thanks for the post. Wow, 1 in 40, that is much higher than I expected. How could one look at an extruded bar and know if it was from the time they were lead filled. I had actually put this to rest in my mind as no longer a great risk but now I'm not a certain anymore with this refiner's opinion/experience.
For the last time...ONLY THE EARLY 1980"s (when silver was beaucoup) AND THE EXTRUDED ONLY>>>>>were suspect......1980-81 more than likely, silver plummeted in 1982, made a comeback of sorts in 1983, than silver went comatose, plumeting to $3.40 in 1991.....

AgAuGal | 05-26-2007 02:19 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered How do you know if your extruded bar is from the early 1980's? Mine don't have a date stamped on them! Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire (Post 619603) For the last time...ONLY THE EARLY 1980"s (when silver was beaucoup) AND THE EXTRUDED ONLY>>>>>were suspect......1980-81 more than likely, silver plummeted in 1982, made a comeback of sorts in 1983, than silver went comatose, plumeting to $3.40 in 1991.....

Az Ag | 05-26-2007 02:21 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire (Post 619603) For the last time...ONLY THE EARLY 1980"s (when silver was beaucoup) AND THE EXTRUDED ONLY>>>>>were suspect......1980-81 more than likely, silver plummeted in 1982, made a comeback of sorts in 1983, than silver went comatose, plumeting to $3.40 in 1991.....
Now that Bullionaire has corrected everybody for the last time, we can continue with what has been revealed in this thread. Can you imagine, one out of every forty 100 oz bars is filled with lead. That means that 2.5 % of all those millions of bars could be practically worthless. Projected further, if their have been, say 2,000,000 100 oz bars made, that around 50,000 of those worthless bars could be circulating. It just boggles my mind that this could be true. I think I will stay away from 100 oz bars. Maybe I will just stick to buying something smaller, that would be much more difficult to plug with lead. One ounce coins comes to mind. Yep, thats it, I will start buying Chinese Pandas. Not much risk with those! Sorry, Bullionaire. I just couldn't resist :Sorry: I am just bored on a Saturday morning and thought I would pull your chain a little. Your post really was interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Bullionaire | 05-26-2007 02:41 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered They would not be Worthless, just Worth less.....(50 ounces) it may be that most all are long gone, or an occaisional one is sitting in someone's safety deposit box to be cashed in by their heirs, in the year 2029, when silver without much fanfare, finally hits 25.00 an ounce. Of course, a loaf of bread will be $8.00 and A big mac 9.99 and many of those monstrous guzzling SUV'S and Hummers from this era will be used as sleeping chambers for homeless, as they have been long since outlawed as people movers due to the closing of the Straits of Hormuz in the quickly aborted nuclear conflict of 2012...

tomexxtra | 05-27-2007 02:21 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered That "Ting" can be done with all silver pieces you have, one ounce, ten ounce hundred ounce. Get the fork tap the top you'll hear a "ting" on ALL silver bars [pieces]. Now take the fork tap on top of a hammer, it's not a "Ting" it's a "Thug". If you can't hear a difference then forget it, I'm full of crap. If you can hear a difference that's what I'm talking about. Practice it with different metals around the house like pots, irons etc.... Practice it with different silver pieces you have around. This is no guarantee of silver proof, but when I hear that "ting" I sleep better at night.

goldminer | 05-27-2007 06:01 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered I think I'll limit my acquisition of extruded c-oz. Engelhard bars to those I can get at a 50 oz. price. Won't hold my breath waiting for this to happen!

TomD | 05-27-2007 07:00 PM
Re: My trip to a gold refinery and questions answered Quote:
Originally Posted by goldminer (Post 620405) I think I'll limit my acquisition of extruded c-oz. Engelhard bars to those I can get at a 50 oz. price. Won't hold my breath waiting for this to happen!
Oh yeah, you'll get lots bidding $600-$700 on 100 ounce bars.

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