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- - UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=198151)

HistoryStudent | 11-08-2007 08:53 AM
UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! http://www.pcgs.com/prices/frame_pf....enty&type=date INDIANS $10 too! http://www.pcgs.com/prices/frame_pf....agle&type=date

j-son | 11-08-2007 08:55 AM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! are those prices inflated or are they pretty accurate

HistoryStudent | 11-08-2007 12:27 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! THEY are retail - knock off 20% and that's a good deal. These guys have been great for a couple of years for me: http://www.gainesvillecoins.com/ and they are better PRICES than EBAY offers - usually, of course, unless you spend 24/7 to save JUST a few bucks. I personally buy in bulk and don't have time to screw around - sorry.

j-son | 11-08-2007 09:14 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! i was offered a 1910-S MS63 $20 PCGS for $1010 today but dont own any numismatic coins and not sure if there is more potential for this coin versus a bullion coin. its a st. gauden coin think its worthy or a good deal or just an average deal.

Caradoc | 11-08-2007 09:57 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Normally, what History Student says is not only true but an understatement; i.e., PCGS posted prices are not only retail, they're on the high side of retail. And you would want to pay less than their posted price. For example, back when PCGS was pricing common date MS-64 Saints at $870 my buddy who's an honest, low-markup dealer was selling them for $850. What we're experiencing now is not normal and is about to become even less normal. Remember, PCGS doesn't buy or sell coins. They only grade them and, as best they can, report the ongoing market for particular coins . Today they raised MS-64 Saints from 1260 to 1300, having just raised them from 1250 (if I remember correctly) to 1260 the day before. What was happening in the real world this afternoon, however, is that my buddy was selling MS-64 Saints for $1,355. Bottom line is that PCGS can't keep up with what demand is doing to the prices of all pre-1933 US gold. Since that 1910-S MS-63 was offered for less than the PCGS price, it would have been a bargain. Caradoc

twenty4karat | 11-08-2007 10:50 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Quote:
Originally Posted by j-son (Post 821140) i was offered a 1910-S MS63 $20 PCGS for $1010 today but dont own any numismatic coins and not sure if there is more potential for this coin versus a bullion coin. its a st. gauden coin think its worthy or a good deal or just an average deal.
j-son� I say go for it. It is a nice coin. I have a 1915s in MS63 (Though personally I like Liberty's) But the bottom line is that this coin is still only 3/100th's shy of pure Gold. These are generous coins. Just my point 02. Maranatha, :smile:

j-son | 11-08-2007 11:02 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! ok thanks for the opinions. i bought it for $1000 even from an ebay aquaintance. this will be my first pre 1986 gold coin! and i just received it today. looks nice...kinda like the newer gold eagles but the ms 63 condition makes it a bit older looking.

HistoryStudent | 11-09-2007 03:48 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Quote:
Originally Posted by Caradoc (Post 821184) Normally, what History Student says is not only true but an understatement; i.e., PCGS posted prices are not only retail, they're on the high side of retail. And you would want to pay less than their posted price. For example, back when PCGS was pricing common date MS-64 Saints at $870 my buddy who's an honest, low-markup dealer was selling them for $850. What we're experiencing now is not normal and is about to become even less normal. Remember, PCGS doesn't buy or sell coins. They only grade them and, as best they can, report the ongoing market for particular coins . Today they raised MS-64 Saints from 1260 to 1300, having just raised them from 1250 (if I remember correctly) to 1260 the day before. What was happening in the real world this afternoon, however, is that my buddy was selling MS-64 Saints for $1,355. Bottom line is that PCGS can't keep up with what demand is doing to the prices of all pre-1933 US gold. Since that 1910-S MS-63 was offered for less than the PCGS price, it would have been a bargain. Caradoc
I humbly say thank you. Here's a recent listing: http://www.pcgs.com/prices/frame_pf....enty&type=date If I wasn't leaving for a month plus right now I'd BUY IN MS65 only! 14D cheap 14S cheap 15S cheap Just bought the 1922 MS65 last month. Speculation only - go for it gang!

Jekyll7 | 11-09-2007 07:00 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Sorry, a little OT...but if anyone has a 1908 no motto Saint in EF-AU condition they want to trade, please let me know.

j-son | 11-09-2007 07:33 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Quote:
Originally Posted by Jekyll7 (Post 822602) Sorry, a little OT...but if anyone has a 1908 no motto Saint in EF-AU condition they want to trade, please let me know.
http://www.apmex.com/Product/117/200...or_Better.aspx

HistoryStudent | 11-09-2007 07:40 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Quote:
Originally Posted by Jekyll7 (Post 822602) Sorry, a little OT...but if anyone has a 1908 no motto Saint in EF-AU condition they want to trade, please let me know.
http://www.gainesvillecoins.com/ compare use the best deal both fine ORGANIZATIONS!

Jekyll7 | 11-10-2007 12:36 AM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Thanks for the link HS. Looks like they mostly stock higher MS coins though. As for APMEX, until they open their sales to Canada, I will continue not being able to take advantage of the deals they offer :rant:

j-son | 11-12-2007 09:01 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 822677) http://www.gainesvillecoins.com/ compare use the best deal both fine ORGANIZATIONS!
HS....are most of your holdings in graded pre-1933 gold coins?

HistoryStudent | 11-12-2007 09:39 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Quote:
Originally Posted by j-son (Post 827788) HS....are most of your holdings in graded pre-1933 gold coins?
No they are just a HOBBY because buying all bullion got boring. 50 to 1 ratio ******************************************8 45% gold bullion 45% silver bullion incl. SAEs in unopened boxes; found 10 tubes today of 1992 & 1993 SAEs - kinda fun - I forgot about them 10% numismatics graded! Note that: THE Darn few coins I have are getting more valuable. :shocked_ma:

100 Rupiah | 11-13-2007 12:06 AM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! HS: I saw sellers in Ebay claim that PCGS gradings in the old days are stricker as compare to current/recent gradings. Old MS64 grading is easily become MS65 if it is sent for re-grading. What do you think of such claims ? I would like to get one or two graded St. Gaudens due to the same reason like yours. Bullion is getting a little bit boring for me... :confused_ma: Any other members comment are welcome. Thanks..

EE_ | 11-13-2007 12:36 AM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Here's a couple to compare grades/price. http://www.brokencc.com/process_adva...omination=5300 Check the rest of the site out if you like. http://www.brokencc.com/50Pesovs20USgold.php

Master_Ho | 11-13-2007 01:54 AM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 827856) Note that: THE Darn few coins I have are getting more valuable. :shocked_ma:
But man - didn't we take a lot of slamming around here when we bought them - even if just for a few bucks over bullion.........right now I don't have a single one I bought for under the current price of bullion - but as numismatics they are up to easy four digits...........even if I only got current bullion price - I am still way ahead!

Master_Ho | 11-13-2007 01:56 AM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Quote:
Originally Posted by 100 Rupiah (Post 828030) HS: I saw sellers in Ebay claim that PCGS gradings in the old days are stricker as compare to current/recent gradings. Old MS64 grading is easily become MS65 if it is sent for re-grading. What do you think of such claims ? I would like to get one or two graded St. Gaudens due to the same reason like yours. Bullion is getting a little bit boring for me... :confused_ma: Any other members comment are welcome. Thanks..
Stricter - yes..........some do get graded higher - some do not........old MS64 is NOT always MS65 - but its often worth having it re-graded to see - if it does - you win! :D

HistoryStudent | 11-13-2007 08:29 AM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Quote:
Originally Posted by 100 Rupiah (Post 828030) HS: I saw sellers in Ebay claim that PCGS gradings in the old days are stricker as compare to current/recent gradings. Old MS64 grading is easily become MS65 if it is sent for re-grading. What do you think of such claims ? I would like to get one or two graded St. Gaudens due to the same reason like yours. Bullion is getting a little bit boring for me... :confused_ma: Any other members comment are welcome. Thanks..
Study the NUMISMATICS for about 40 hours before making any investment. The knowledge will keep you from making all the mistakes normally made. Of course, those mistakes cost us big money. Numismatics is like climbing the Matterhorn when it is raining - and the ice is wet. Frankly you need a lot of LESSONS and hate to learn you bought the wrong "stuff" when you want to run up the mountain without thinking. Good luck. Oh by the way, by learning you see a whole new way to make money on what you already have - that many miss. You figure it out. :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::haha::haha::haha::aetsch: :aetsch::aetsch::wavey::wavey::wavey::clap2::clap2 ::clap2:

j-son | 11-13-2007 08:35 AM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 828267) Study the NUMISMATICS for about 40 hours before making any investment. The knowledge will keep you from making all the mistakes normally made. Of course, those mistakes cost us big money. Numismatics is like climbing the Matterhorn when it is raining - and the ice is wet. Frankly you need a lot of LESSONS and hate to learn you bought the wrong "stuff" when you want to run up the mountain without thinking. Good luck. Oh by the way, by learning you see a whole new way to make money on what you already have - that many miss. You figure it out. :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::haha::haha::haha::aetsch: :aetsch::aetsch::wavey::wavey::wavey::clap2::clap2 ::clap2:
pretty much from what i've read about old gold coins is that there are plenty of them available and the condition combined with the rarity makes the value. there does come a point where the coin is too rare/valuable and doesnt sell much since the majority of collectors dont spend above a certain level. so i think ms-64 and ms-65 $20 gold coins with midrange mintage and pcgs grading should be on peoples lists to buy. seems like resale and appreciation should always be easy.

HistoryStudent | 11-13-2007 08:43 AM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! http://www.pcgs.com/prices/frame.cht...gaudens_twenty Look down the value list and decide what level you would buy at as this market heats up and that when you MIGHT sell into it. My guess would be the MS low end to your MS64 MS65 so-called JEWEL end. I'd love to have each coin in any condition, personally. It's best to be in IT for the adventure - total value collecting for the future is boring - like buying bullion every day; same coin same day.

Streets Of Gold | 11-13-2007 08:56 AM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! A little tribute When the Saints go marching in
When the Saints go marching in

HistoryStudent | 11-13-2007 04:26 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Quote:
Originally Posted by j-son (Post 828271) pretty much from what i've read about old gold coins is that there are plenty of them available and the condition combined with the rarity makes the value. there does come a point where the coin is too rare/valuable and doesnt sell much since the majority of collectors dont spend above a certain level. so i think ms-64 and ms-65 $20 gold coins with midrange mintage and pcgs grading should be on peoples lists to buy. seems like resale and appreciation should always be easy.
Frankly, I FEEL that COMMON dated SAINTS in MS65 (when they were $1250 each last month) were a STEAL! I almost bought a dozen but decided on 3 - read three ("Gonna take you on a sea cruise..." - Bobby Darin) cruises instead! LIKE you I'm heavy in the COMMON dated things because that what I first bought: and PETER LYNCH of some big mutual fund DEALIE - taught me to study the marketplace at the SHOPPING malls. I JUST study the on-line marketplace at EBAY! And on-line sellers where I see how there is no INVENTORY of the RARE stuff and for me I'm not going to spend hundred's of thousands for a small "S" or a small "D" when I already have that date CHEAPER from Phili with no initial - a heck of a lot cheaper. Now if some dummy wants to give me one CHEAP - well it better be graded by PCGS or NGC because I've been HAD by ONE Saint that I paid $275 for as a MS60 and IT WAS (DEAR ME!) altered per PCGS. I still have it in a bODY BAG to remind me to buy after the grading. Oh, well the coin worth at least the gold price, right? Five of the ten I bought at $275 each came back MS65s though - but human nature wants a WIN WIN WIN! The rest were MS64s. All ten were marked MS60 but that was from the 1980s grading company in those OLD huge plastic slabs - AMERICAN INVESTMENT RARITIES or something like that.

Master_Ho | 11-13-2007 06:27 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 828902) Frankly, I FEEL that COMMON dated SAINTS in MS65 (when they were $1250 each last month) were a STEAL! I almost bought a dozen but decided on 3 - read three ("Gonna take you on a sea cruise..." - Bobby Darin) cruises instead! LIKE you I'm heavy in the COMMON dated things because that what I first bought: and PETER LYNCH of some big mutual fund DEALIE - taught me to study the marketplace at the SHOPPING malls. I JUST study the on-line marketplace at EBAY! And on-line sellers where I see how there is no INVENTORY of the RARE stuff and for me I'm not going to spend hundred's of thousands for a small "S" or a small "D" when I already have that date CHEAPER from Phili with no initial - a heck of a lot cheaper. Now if some dummy wants to give me one CHEAP - well it better be graded by PCGS or NGC because I've been HAD by ONE Saint that I paid $275 for as a MS60 and IT WAS (DEAR ME!) altered per PCGS. I still have it in a bODY BAG to remind me to buy after the grading. Oh, well the coin worth at least the gold price, right? Five of the ten I bought at $275 each came back MS65s though - but human nature wants a WIN WIN WIN! The rest were MS64s. All ten were marked MS60 but that was from the 1980s grading company in those OLD huge plastic slabs - AMERICAN INVESTMENT RARITIES or something like that.
Couldn't have put it better myself, birthday boy!!!

Master_Ho | 11-15-2007 11:01 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Quote:
Originally Posted by j-son (Post 832414) what do you think about this coin/auction? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWN:IT&ih=016
Well, I am suspicious of the grading of MS 64 - and if it were, PCGS has never graded one that high.........but considering they have VF for $1000.........for under that - I con't see how the winner could go wrong........I'd get it graded by PCGS right away tho.........

TaxHaven | 11-15-2007 11:11 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! j-son, 98.7% is NOT a good feedback score. Check out each of the 14 unsatisfactory rankings first. I think he takes PayPal, right?

pinnacle | 11-15-2007 11:12 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! I would not buy it for over bullion value......as I am not an expert on coin condition and the grading firm is very questionable. Since PCGS prices are a premium to even retail....I would think this would have to be graded at least MS61 by NGC or PCGS to be a good buy...and I would have no clue as to how this coin would grade by NGC or PCGS. Things to be suspicious of: 1. Pictures are not closeups. Kind of hard to tell real condition of the coin from the photo and distance they were taken. 2. Seller has had some questions and feedback related to over -grading. Even though he received mostly positive feedbacks from buyers - on some of them it was because they thought coins were overgraded and got a refund...but since they got a refund they said positive. Read the fine print on his positive feedbacks...alot of coins were returned for overgrading...so the MS64 grade is more than likely way overstated. If the coin was cleaned..hard to tell...it is worth bullion value for the most part. There are folks out there (not saying this Seller is necessarily one) who make a living finding fairly common coins that rarely get graded high....and getting a bogus grading on a fairly common year...hoping someone will just split the difference from the lower grade. Not my cup of tea...due to grading service used and buyer not as good as I would like to see...regardless of his feedback score.

j-son | 11-15-2007 11:18 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho (Post 832425) Well, I am suspicious of the grading of MS 64 - and if it were, PCGS has never graded one that high.........but considering they have VF for $1000.........for under that - I con't see how the winner could go wrong........I'd get it graded by PCGS right away tho.........
in order for me to submit any coin to pcgs do i need to join their club for $50? or can i just send a coin to them?

Master_Ho | 11-16-2007 12:07 AM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Quote:
Originally Posted by j-son (Post 832445) in order for me to submit any coin to pcgs do i need to join their club for $50? or can i just send a coin to them?
Now - that is something I am not sure about - joining gets you some free grading (it works out to be a little cheaper) but I have my coin dealer do it - but I THINK you can without joining.......check the PCGS site or call and ask. And while I read the comments above (I did not check his rating but I hope you bought thru Paypal).......as to the grading - even in a really low grade, I don't think you can get hurt on this one. I have seen some really crazy grading by third and fourth level grading services - but even if it was an MS 61, you still are doing fine........and it sure looks better than VF..........and VF is STILL less than you paid. A gamble? Sure! (So is eating out at restaurants!) A GOOD gamble? YES...I think so! I gambled on a 1910-S St Gaudens graded by ICG (I think thats the combination of letters) at MS 65........to me in the pictures I guessed it was MS 63........when it arrived, everyone said MS 63.......but I paid no more than MS 62 - figured a gamble that would be "fairly" safe......... The coin came back graded at MS 63......I was quite a bit ahead........ Hope the same for you.......I would take the chance myself.

j-son | 11-16-2007 06:00 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarti...sArticleID=408 NumisMedia: Gold Propels Coin Market to Higher Levels Posted at 11/14/2007 A guest article from NumisMedia In January of 1980, gold hit the high-water mark of $850. The coin market was as hot as it had ever been. Dealers could not get enough bullion to satisfy their customers and rare coins were selling as if they would run out. Toward the end of January, these buyers witnessed the beginning of a downhill slide that went on for the next several years. As we approach the $800 mark at the end of October 2007, it is interesting to note that we have not seen the same buying frenzy for bullion that we witnessed in 1980. Many buyers are reluctant to put all their assets into bullion because they feel that the market can turn quickly and losses seem to be more of a concern than missing actual profits. On the other hand, many buyers have already jumped in at significantly lower levels and have substantial profits in hand. These buyers are of the opinion that there is no better place to put your money at this time. They believe, ultimately, gold will go much higher. Today�s coin market is much different than 1980, chiefly because of the certification services. In 1980, everyone was a grading expert, but most numismatists had differing grading standards for buying versus selling. The coin market was so active that many coins sold for prices at least two grades higher than the actual quality of the coin. In fact, in those days, if it had eye appeal and was priced at $2,500 to $3,000, it was usually an easy sale. It seemed like $3,000 was the typical wholesale top because dealers all had customers who would pay $3,500 or more for nice-looking coins. The problem was that many of those nice-looking coins eventually became MS63 or less even though they had eye appeal. Bag marks were acceptable for a high-grade coin back then. Today, the grade is the grade, even though some rare coins will sell for prices that are commensurate with grades one or two points higher. That is characteristic of a seller�s market. Buyers have to be aggressive in order to get the best offerings and even more so for the rarest of coins which will command premiums of Fair Market Value. With gold moving dramatically higher, we find that generics can move rather quickly. Many better date coins within the same series actually become premier buying opportunities because the market is moving so fast that some sellers do not conform to appropriate premiums for better dates. Astute buyers who pay attention to these anomalies can certainly find better dates at minor premiums which have a good chance to advance to levels exceeding the norm for regular generic issues. Many of the TII San Francisco $20 Liberties fall into this category. These coins typically run hot and cold in the market. When they are out of favor, they can be purchased near the generic prices, especially in AU55 and lower grades. When they get hot and dealers are buying them for customers, the premiums jump 20% to 30%. In the higher grades, they can move even quicker. In 2000, the 1872 S $20 Gold had an FMV of $2,730; in 2002, it was $4,440. Today, it is just $3,580. There are many other examples that have potential to move far beyond the common dates. Serious collectors need to consider the original mintages of these coins along with the number of coins certified by NGC and PCGS. It also helps to study the number of coins graded higher than the specific coin you may be considering. The smaller number of coins in the higher grades can spell greater potential. The number of serious collectors continues to expand. Every major auction seems to bring out new advanced collectors willing to spend six figures and more for rarities that do not come along very often. One example is the 1796 No Stars $2 � Gold. All grades are sought after of late and the FMV continues to increase almost on a weekly basis. In 1999, the AU58 had an FMV of $132,000 and there were not many collectors with interest in acquiring one. Dealers could have had any of these graded coins in inventory without so much as an inquiry for several major shows. However, at today�s FMV of $190,630 we doubt that you could even find one for a customer, let alone several customers. It is a coin with tremendous desirability and the competition is quite vigorous. Just about all Early Gold is in the same boat as searching market makers and collectors can attest. Although rare coins remain as hot as ever, not everyone can afford the luxury of owning many of the higher-quality rarities. However, there are thousands of collectors who can afford coins that range from $1,000 to $20,000. With Gold moving higher and the prospects of it going beyond the $800 level, the generic issues are a way of participating in numismatics, learning its intricacies, while still following the movements of the metal. Just a few weeks ago, common date $20 Saints had an FMV of $950 in MS60. Now they are at $1,000; for most buyers, this is the difference in the premiums of buying and selling. With the insecure economy, this is an excellent opportunity for novice and advanced collectors to build equity while enjoying the pursuit of the history and art of numismatics. This month marks the largest number of FMV advances that we can recall for several years. While the increases emphasize a rising market, you should not assume that those issues without advances are necessarily weak. The only real weakness in the market appears to be for non-bullion-related modern issues grading 69 or lower. Nearly all earlier classic coinage prior to 1930 is marketable at current FMV levels. Of course, they have to be properly graded and cannot have detracting marks or they will require discounts. Two of the strongest collector series remain Indian and Lincoln Cents. For many, this is the basis of all numismatics. In addition, there is a certain refinement that has developed over the years that separates these series into distinct categories. Color is a very important characteristic that helps a collector define his particular pursuit. As we all know, Red Early Copper Cents are very difficult to acquire across the entire series. Most advanced collectors realize that some dates are not available in both high grade and Red. When these coins are found, usually in a major auction, there are enough serious collectors who will pay �crazy� money that it relegates the average collector to pursue Red and Brown or Brown coins. These are the coins that most collectors feel will fall into the bargain category because they are well under the FMV for Red coins. When you look at an 1867 Indian Cent in MS66 and see the FMV of $2,280 for a Red and Brown and $32,500 for a Red coin, it is not difficult to understand why more collectors see the value of the seemingly reasonable Red and Brown coin.

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goldrad | 11-16-2007 11:01 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! For PCGS, I think you have to be a member to submit, $30 per gold coin. However, if you sign up for the highest membership, you'd get 8 coins graded for free. I'm considering doing that when I have 8 coins to send in.

clarkth | 11-16-2007 11:53 PM
Re: UP go the US $20 Saints... they do! Quote:
Originally Posted by goldrad (Post 833963) For PCGS, I think you have to be a member to submit, $30 per gold coin. However, if you sign up for the highest membership, you'd get 8 coins graded for free. I'm considering doing that when I have 8 coins to send in.
Yes you get 8 free grades (all have to be sent in at the same time) plus there are also free quarterly grading specials. I think this quarter is any seated liberty coin. So you actually get 12 free grades with a membership.

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