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- - Should I open it? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=163464)

Mike C | 08-06-2007 12:08 PM
Should I open it? I just recieved a beautiful gold 1 oz. panda from APMEX, and am wondering if I should take it out of it's sealed plastic little baggie from the mint? I want to put it in an air-tite for safety, but don't want it to lose any value if I go to sell it in the future. What's all the more experienced around here think? Take it out and make it safe or leave it in? How common are counterfeit gold pandas? I see that the silver ones are widely faked, but what about these? Thanks Mike C

SilverCollector | 08-06-2007 12:14 PM
Re: Should I open it? I take all my Pandas out of their originals and put them in something more protective. I don't consider them of lesser value.

eyeofliberty | 08-06-2007 12:44 PM
Re: Should I open it? Take it out with cotton gloves and place it in an Airtite.

Mike C | 08-06-2007 01:33 PM
Re: Should I open it? Sounds like a winner. The more I thought about it the more I decided I wanted it uniform with my others, not a stranded gold coin in a flimsy plastic.

TomD | 08-06-2007 01:34 PM
Re: Should I open it? What they said ^ I got some fake 1/10th oz fake gold coins once but I'm not aware of any fake 1 ounce gold coins where the weight is anywhere close to right.

j-son | 08-06-2007 01:36 PM
Re: Should I open it? apmex buys and sells sealed pandas for more money than if they are opened.

Mike C | 08-07-2007 12:46 AM
Re: Should I open it? Well I don't plan on selling it anytime soon, if at all, so it's now open in an air tite. I'm debating if I want to open my maple leafs from their little cards as well, although this will be a more difficult decision. I just like the feel of the little holders filled with gold.

Master_Ho | 08-07-2007 12:50 AM
Re: Should I open it? Quote:
Originally Posted by j-son (Post 686834) apmex buys and sells sealed pandas for more money than if they are opened.
Everytime this topic comes up we have told them the same thing - opening them decreases their value.........what can you do - they open them anyway - its their coin..........so it goes........

AlwaysWrite | 08-07-2007 01:24 AM
Re: Should I open it? I was also told (by CNI) that they buy them for less if they are not in the original plastic. I was also told it helps them verify authenticity. However, I don't like the coins I have that are in plastic (no Pandas for me, but others) ... I MUCH prefer them in air-tites where I can handle them and they are protected. But I feel bad taking them out of the plastic when I get them that way, even a couple silver Maples I have. I stay away from the Pandas due to concerns about counterfeiting ... and concerns that even if mine is real, it will be tougher to sell due to worry about fakes. But I wonder if removing silver Maples, or GIM rounds from the plastic reduces their value at all? I'm thinking it might be more important to protect them......

Master_Ho | 08-07-2007 01:41 AM
Re: Should I open it? Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysWrite (Post 687552) I was also told (by CNI) that they buy them for less if they are not in the original plastic. I was also told it helps them verify authenticity. However, I don't like the coins I have that are in plastic (no Pandas for me, but others) ... I MUCH prefer them in air-tites where I can handle them and they are protected. But I feel bad taking them out of the plastic when I get them that way, even a couple silver Maples I have. I stay away from the Pandas due to concerns about counterfeiting ... and concerns that even if mine is real, it will be tougher to sell due to worry about fakes. But I wonder if removing silver Maples, or GIM rounds from the plastic reduces their value at all? I'm thinking it might be more important to protect them......
I don't know about opening Maples, and I am not opening the GIM rounds even tho they may not get a penny more when the time comes to resell.........but here's my thought about this topic in general........> We've got "bullion people" in here who hop up and down when they buy a silver coin or round and save a coupe of cents on the deal - them these same people will remove a coin from its packaging which will decrease their value more cents than that. REAL smart! :sarcasm: I can understand opening one or two because you want to hold it and show it - I've done that - but beyond that - I would leave it in the plastic so when I go to resell I get every cent I can.

Raccoon | 08-07-2007 02:49 AM
Re: Should I open it? Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 686829) I'm not aware of any fake 1 ounce gold coins where the weight is anywhere close to right.
Don't forget the Lebanese forgeries from the seventies. They fooled many experts since they were so well made. I bought a 100 Corona on Ebay (OK, not 1 oz, but 0.98 oz) and the diameter, thickness and weight were correct, but there was a small indention with some black dirt at the bottom on one of the surfaces (or so I thought). As I have access to microscopes at work, I studied the coin under a dissection microscope and could see very clearly that the black spot wasn't dirt; it was black metal that was under the thin layer of gold. :shocked_ma: The famous Lebanese counterfeits were apparently made of sintered tungsten powder to get the density right and covered with a thin layer of gold, and from what I've heard they included sovereigns and many other gold coins including the whole Corona series, so it is likely that this coin was one of these. And yes, I returned the coin and got my money back from the seller.

TomD | 08-07-2007 07:47 AM
Re: Should I open it? Quote:
Originally Posted by Raccoon (Post 687594) Don't forget the Lebanese forgeries from the seventies. They fooled many experts since they were so well made. I bought a 100 Corona on Ebay (OK, not 1 oz, but 0.98 oz) and the diameter, thickness and weight were correct, but there was a small indention with some black dirt at the bottom on one of the surfaces (or so I thought). As I have access to microscopes at work, I studied the coin under a dissection microscope and could see very clearly that the black spot wasn't dirt; it was black metal that was under the thin layer of gold. :shocked_ma: The famous Lebanese counterfeits were apparently made of sintered tungsten powder to get the density right and covered with a thin layer of gold, and from what I've heard they included sovereigns and many other gold coins including the whole Corona series, so it is likely that this coin was one of these. And yes, I returned the coin and got my money back from the seller.
I didn't know that. I knew that it was technically possible but not that it had been done. I thought (hoped) that tungsten powder would require a manufacturing base that would have too many people involved.

j-son | 08-07-2007 07:59 AM
Re: Should I open it? Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 687687) I didn't know that. I knew that it was technically possible but not that it had been done. I thought (hoped) that tungsten powder would require a manufacturing base that would have too many people involved.
i didnt know that either.

gunner | 08-07-2007 08:26 AM
Re: Should I open it? http://www.24carat.co.uk/counterfeitcoinsframe.html The Lebanese Connection In the early 1970's, a large number of superbly produced counterfeit coins were produced in The Lebanon. These fooled a number of major dealers, collectors, museums, mints and governments for a number of years before they became fully exposed. One day in the 1970's, two dealers offered us an 1887 gold five pound coin in mint condition at a knockdown price. We believe that if something is too good to be true, then it's usually because it's not true. While we were suspiciously examining the coin, the dealers brought out a tube containing 25 or 50 identical coins, and asked how many we wanted. They then fell about laughing. It was clear to us that they had almost certainly never intended to deceive us, and were being quite open about the nature and source of the coins. They also told us about a number of other coin dates and denominations which they knew were available as forgeries. Perhaps misguidedly, these dealers appeared to believe there was no harm in selling these forgeries as long as their customers knew the truth. Unfortunately, as the fakes travelled along the supply lines, they would have come into the hands of smaller dealers and members of the public who would have no such scruples, and it was obvious that unsuspecting collectors and dealers would eventually have been duped and defrauded. A number of dealers who had been importing these fakes were eventually prosecuted, convicted and jailed. We were asked to give evidence against them which we did, although we were and still are able to see and understand their viewpoint as well as that of the authorities. Perhaps they were being slightly naive in expecting the whole supply chain to be as open and honest as they were being with us. We still speak to and deal with a number of these dealers to this day, and they now run perfectly honest and respectable businesses, having paid the price for errors of their past. None of these dealers are members of the British Numismatic Trade Association, as their history precludes them for eligibility. How to Detect Fakes This is one the the commonest questions we get asked. The quick answer is "years of experience". Although we realise this answer is not much use to the beginner, nevertheless it is very true. For those who have read and understood this page so far, it will be obvious that different types of forgeries will be easier to detect than others. The easiest types to detect will normally be those intended for circulation. If these are forgeries of coins with high intrinsic value, they will usually be lightweight, too thick, or made of the wrong material such as lead, and as we have already explained, these will usually look, feel and sound completely wrong. Copies of token coinage, such as nickel-brass pound coins, will also be easy to detect if they are made of the wrong metal, and often the details of the design looks too crude and coarse. Obviously if someone took the time and effort to produce highly realistic dies, and also invested in modern coining presses, they could produce extremely convincing copies. The collector, however, needs to be more concerned with the fakes of rare and valuable collectors coins which are aimed primarily at the collectors markets. Fortunately most collectors may never come into contact with fake rare coins, because the forgers often aim at only the most valuable and rare items, which only a few of the wealthiest collectors can afford. Most coin catalogues, for example The Standard Catalogue of British Coins, mark most of the the best known or dangerous forgeries to alert their readers to the danger. There also exists an international scheme operated in conjunction with national organisations such as the BNTA, to report monitor and advise on counterfeits. Many of the excellent and dangerous modern fakes including the Lebanese ones are described in a (now old) booklet. Most larger dealers will have a copy of this, and be able to refer to it whenever they come across high value coins which would be a known or obvious target for forgers.

TomD | 08-07-2007 10:07 AM
Re: Should I open it? Just read the report on the counterfeit coins originating in Lebanon in the 1970's. All of the mentioned counterfeits were coins of significant numismatic value. From what I read, the fakes were true counterfeits, made with the correct metal, the profit made with the numismatic value. I did a google search of "fake gold coin" + tungsten and came up with this from the Fitch site <small>"Metals with a density comparable to gold that could be used to make a fake coin correct in both weight and size are the platinum group metals and tungsten. The price of the platinum group metals precludes their use. Tungsten is an extremely hard, yet brittle metal that would be very difficult to work into a passable fake. No tungsten based fakes of the correct specifications have been reported. </small> <small>The only metals of sufficient density that could be used to make a fake platinum coin of the correct specifications are osmium and iridium. Produced in small quantities as a by-product of platinum, they are extremely hard, brittle metals which crumble to a powder if worked cold. They are both expensive and hard to obtain." </small> <small>I t doesn't mention powdered metal though. </small>

Raccoon | 08-07-2007 01:15 PM
Re: Should I open it? OK, I'll try to find what I read about tungsten/fake coins when I have time to do it. The fact remains that "my" coin had the right measures and weight and still was fake.

Mike C | 08-07-2007 01:24 PM
Re: Should I open it? This is all very interesting stuff, considering I am a newb to the world of coins and bullion.

TomD | 08-07-2007 02:22 PM
Re: Should I open it? 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike C (Post 687976) This is all very interesting stuff, considering I am a newb to the world of coins and bullion.
Hi Mike, sorry to have been involved in taking your thread out past left field. Racoon, I've read a bit and find that tungsten can be machined and polished. I found one site where you can buy tungsten carbide wedding rings, in case you are looking for the ultimate in hardness, I suppose. The tungsten rings cost as much as or more than gold. Tungsten is a white metal. The properties of tungsten and gold, other than density, almost couldn't be any different. There would be numerous tests that would tell the difference, all of which would require removal from the packaging, by the way. Other than seeing something black under the plating, did you measure any other of the properties of your "Corona"? Tungsten rings below.

Raccoon | 08-07-2007 03:04 PM
Re: Should I open it? This is the only thing I've found so far: OSAKA--It was a crime so sophisticated it could have fooled professionals with the most sophisticated equipment. <!-- Start of photo --><table class="npic" width="100"><tbody><tr><td> http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-...0706060095.jpgTungsten, left, is covered with pure gold to create a counterfeit.(The Asahi Shimbun)</td></tr></tbody></table> <!-- End of photo --> A crime ring created counterfeit gold bars undetectable even with an X-ray appraiser. ........... The bars were forged using tungsten, which has a specific gravity the same as gold. The tungsten was then covered with a coating of real gold, making it difficult to detect the fake bars in a regular inspection, police said. http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-...706060072.html

TomD | 08-07-2007 03:49 PM
Re: Should I open it? Quote:
Originally Posted by Raccoon (Post 688080) This is the only thing I've found so far: OSAKA--It was a crime so sophisticated it could have fooled professionals with the most sophisticated equipment. <!-- Start of photo --><table class="npic" width="100"><tbody><tr><td> http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-...0706060095.jpgTungsten, left, is covered with pure gold to create a counterfeit.(The Asahi Shimbun)</td></tr></tbody></table> <!-- End of photo --> A crime ring created counterfeit gold bars undetectable even with an X-ray appraiser. ........... The bars were forged using tungsten, which has a specific gravity the same as gold. The tungsten was then covered with a coating of real gold, making it difficult to detect the fake bars in a regular inspection, police said. http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-...706060072.html
I wish I hadn't seen that, the fake bar in the article was plated with pure gold deep enough so that it was 13% gold. Short of deep drilling, I know of no way to defend against that. One thing for certain, there was a major effort involved in the production of those counterfeits. I can see myself going after all of my lunars with a battery drill or dremmel tool, that would be just great.

Mike C | 08-08-2007 12:36 AM
Re: Should I open it? That's a pretty cool article. Man I bet that would drive you nuts if you had any bars similar to that and then you see that article. There's always a con artist waiting to make a buck I guess.

Raccoon | 08-09-2007 01:54 AM
Re: Should I open it? 2 Attachment(s) Here are pictures of the fake 100 corona. As you can see, some sharp object has cut through the gold layer and into the black metal underneath. The part of the gold layer that is detached from the base metal is bent to the right. The black part was roughly 0.5 mm in diameter.

AuNuggets | 08-09-2007 09:43 AM
Re: Should I open it? Can you imagine the feeling you would get if you opened that Swiss Bank Bar article and photograph, and then compared it with your own $21,000 + gold bar, only to find the same serial number !! :confused_ma:

TomD | 08-09-2007 12:08 PM
Re: Should I open it? Raccoon, very interesting picture. You might think the cut was made looking for just such a thing. The texture of the coin is interesting, very rough with a grain structure that looks almost crystalline or layered, was the coin circulated or in rough condition? You took that through a microscope? I don't have any gold coins here at the moment to do an extreme close up but I don't think any of my coins show that type of structure. Below is an uncirculated Philharmonic. If you drop the shot into an image program and blow it up until it becomes pixelated, it shows smoothness all the way down. It remains so until well past where 1/2mm would be clearly visible. I don't know if your coin was in supposedly rough shape. It looks like there is a third substance involved in your coin shot, sorta pickish copper colored, maybe a smoothing primer layer between the powdered metal and the gold plate. Are you sure the black isn't an inclusion of some kind? Look above it in the greater X shot. There is an area just above the black, that is cut deeper than the black, enough deeper that it has dropped below the depth of field focus and is blurred. It looks like the gold (colored?) metal there again. In case you are wondering as to my motivation, your coin has me frankly worried and I'm hoping to find defensible flaws. http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...rmonic-rev.jpg

RaccoonRiverRadical | 08-09-2007 12:34 PM
Re: Should I open it? Seems from a quick search that gold in non-magnetic whereas tungsten is?

AuNuggets | 08-09-2007 01:27 PM
Re: Should I open it? Tom, You can scan a coin on a good scanner set for highest resolution and get some incredibly close up detail, almost like photographing through a microscope. Those large pixels you are seeing are reduced even smaller before you start losing definition.

Raccoon | 08-09-2007 02:22 PM
Re: Should I open it? Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 690042) The texture of the coin is interesting, very rough with a grain structure that looks almost crystalline or layered, was the coin circulated or in rough condition? ....... It looks like there is a third substance involved in your coin shot, sorta pickish copper colored, maybe a smoothing primer layer between the powdered metal and the gold plate. Are you sure the black isn't an inclusion of some kind? Look above it in the greater X shot. There is an area just above the black, that is cut deeper than the black, enough deeper that it has dropped below the depth of field focus and is blurred. It looks like the gold (colored?) metal there again.......
The coin looked good and uncirculated (all those hairline scratches are very fine), and the reason for the grainy appearance in the picture is the light source-camera combination that wasn't set up for this sort of photography; I had problems with the reflections. The texture looked much smoother than in the picture. The area above the black in the picture is not deeper into the coin, it is where the cut ends and the gold covers the black again. The black area is definitely the deepest part of the cut. Regarding the more orange tone in the deeper gold layer, I cannot recall seeing this in real life, and I think that the substandard illumination caused this too. Regarding the possibility of dirt in the cut: By adjusting the focus of the microscope one gets a much better feel for the 3D structure than a photograph can convey. Furthermore, I didn't only look at it; I scraped it with a sharp needle too, and I'm 100% convinced that it was black metal below the gold and not dirt. The clearly visible gradual transition from gold to black as the cut proceeds also supports this. In another very small area of the coin the gold layer had detached from the base and cracked open and the black metal was visible through the crack. I didn't photograph that spot however

chuckhammer | 08-09-2007 06:54 PM
Re: Should I open it? This is a bit scary for me as well. Anyone with gold in their holdings hates to think they were had. On another note, is it possible to "subscribe" to a thread without posting in it? Such that you will receive email updates for new posts, I mean.

Raccoon | 08-09-2007 07:26 PM
Re: Should I open it? I should add that I don't have access to the coin anymore, as I sent it back to the seller after taking some pictures of it, so I can't test it for magnetic properties et.c. anymore.

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