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Ragnarok | 03-23-2010 08:22 PM
How many tonnes of these went overseas? Never heard of these! What do you think HS? I wonder if the Mint has any mintage figures on these. Another interesting ponderable from FOFOA: http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2010/03/us-mints-gold-disks-for-oil-payments-to.html http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_cvdgPlEKW9..._usmint_lg.jpg Snip: Anyone who has read ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ("The Inside Story on the Gold-for-Oil Deal that could Rock the World's Financial Centers") and FOA ("Walking the Gold Trail Using the "Thoughts!" of ANOTHER") or has been following this blog should immediately recognize the significance of these two articles (written in 1981 and 1991 respectively) presented today by CoinLink. (Hat tip Sigo Plapal) (This first article appeared on pages 2-5 of the September/October 1981 print edition of Saudi Aramco World. by Robert Obojski.) The Coins that Weren’t “In Saudi Arabia, gold coins have always been important in the monetary system. For years, in fact, paper money was unacceptable, and to pay royalties to the government, Aramco once flew kegs of both gold and silver coins to jiddah. In 1952, when the Saudi Arabian Monetary Agency (SAMA) was formed, the first coin issued was a Saudi sovereign – a gold coin equal in weight and value to the British sovereign – that was later demonetized and today sells for about $124. To collectors, however, the most interesting Saudi gold coins weren’t coins at all; they were “gold discs” Similar to coins, they were minted by the Philadelphia Mint in the 1940’s for Aramco, and bore, on one side, the U.S. Eagle and the legend “U.S. Mint, Philadelphia, USA” and, on the other side, three lines on the fineness and weight. They looked like coins, they were used as coins, but, technically, they weren’t coins." I would think if it trades like a coin and clinks like a coin - it's a coin! More at link. R.

HistoryStudent | 03-23-2010 08:44 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? Back in '47 America had to mint these to protect the KINGDOM; we lost 50% but saved the SAUDI'S face... http://www.coinlink.com/News/gold-si...-saudi-arabia/ there you go go I'd buy one but they want TOO much for them...

HistoryStudent | 03-23-2010 09:12 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? Funny how we made GOLD coins in the PHILLI USA MINT (from the Land of the Free, Home of the Brave from 1945-1947) for Saudi Arabia NOBLES and the CITIZENS in USA could not even HAVE gold. Now that's a IRONY :sarc: fought with BLOOD in WWII with a SERMON to preach to the GOLD GOTCHA CROWD, right? WWII was an extention of WWI so......... How sad we paid for OIL at a 50% loss in gold price (we paid $70 an ounce for $35 dollar an ounce gold to KEEP price of OIL down!) and our sad sorry grandparents could not even have GOLD who fought in WWII, right? Against many in the Ottoman Empire the War prior WWI in Jerusalem under the Brittish General Allenby who used HIS KJV Bible to conquer the city by finding KING David's 3,000 year prior passage way into the secret underground rocks and into the heart of the city. Boy were those Camel Jockeys surprised! :23_1_22::111:

Irons | 03-23-2010 09:15 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? "But the price of gold on the open market had skyrocketed during World War II." Huge suprise, there!

HistoryStudent | 03-23-2010 09:15 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnarok (Post 2240540) Never heard of these! What do you think HS? I wonder if the Mint has any mintage figures on these. Another interesting ponderable from FOFOA: http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2010/03/us-mints-gold-disks-for-oil-payments-to.html http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_cvdgPlEKW9..._usmint_lg.jpg Snip: Anyone who has read ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ("The Inside Story on the Gold-for-Oil Deal that could Rock the World's Financial Centers") and FOA ("Walking the Gold Trail Using the "Thoughts!" of ANOTHER") or has been following this blog should immediately recognize the significance of these two articles (written in 1981 and 1991 respectively) presented today by CoinLink. (Hat tip Sigo Plapal) (This first article appeared on pages 2-5 of the September/October 1981 print edition of Saudi Aramco World. by Robert Obojski.) The Coins that Weren’t “In Saudi Arabia, gold coins have always been important in the monetary system. For years, in fact, paper money was unacceptable, and to pay royalties to the government, Aramco once flew kegs of both gold and silver coins to jiddah. In 1952, when the Saudi Arabian Monetary Agency (SAMA) was formed, the first coin issued was a Saudi sovereign – a gold coin equal in weight and value to the British sovereign – that was later demonetized and today sells for about $124. To collectors, however, the most interesting Saudi gold coins weren’t coins at all; they were “gold discs” Similar to coins, they were minted by the Philadelphia Mint in the 1940’s for Aramco, and bore, on one side, the U.S. Eagle and the legend “U.S. Mint, Philadelphia, USA” and, on the other side, three lines on the fineness and weight. They looked like coins, they were used as coins, but, technically, they weren’t coins." I would think if it trades like a coin and clinks like a coin - it's a coin! More at link. R.
PS that's a FOUR banger or 4 gold sovereigns in weight! Almost an OUNCE, that 1945-1946 baby is worth it's weight in USA PHILI GOLD that we could not have when they made it! :signs14:

HistoryStudent | 03-23-2010 09:17 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? Quote:
Originally Posted by Irons (Post 2240607) "But the price of gold on the open market had skyrocketed during World War II." Huge suprise, there!
That's why me and James (BOND) carry 20 sovereigns in our secret money belts when we approach the UNWASHED European Coasts! :504: I really did last time when they elected the 'Bummer in 2008.

Ragnarok | 03-23-2010 09:17 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? "Because most of the discs were melted down for bullion, or later redeemed for the Kingdom’s gold sovereigns, the discs are interesting additions to art collections. But care is necessary as counterfeits are common.” Huh? Why would anyone want to counterfeit such a strange/unique item as this; where's the demand nowadays? Strange... R.

HistoryStudent | 03-23-2010 09:24 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnarok (Post 2240613) "Because most of the discs were melted down for bullion, or later redeemed for the Kingdom’s gold sovereigns, the discs are interesting additions to art collections. But care is necessary as counterfeits are common.” Huh? Why would anyone want to counterfeit such a strange/unique item as this; where's the demand nowadays? Strange... R.
They are very rare because TPTB melted them down and put them into ARABIC gold coins - the INFIDEL and all. You know, either BE ISLAMIC CONVERTED or the other two choices: DEAD or A ISLAMIC SLAVE. http://whatthewestneedstoknow.com/ I appreciated their INSIGHT! :signs14:

esoteric | 03-23-2010 11:23 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? wow now theres some gold with some interesting history behind it...coin or not

HistoryStudent | 03-24-2010 10:03 AM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? Almost bought one one but I can get another UHR in First Strike MS70 PCGS for the same price. Although I love the history and the fact that TPTB allowed a foreign country to have at twice the PRICE what WE could not have in the LOWER 48 at the time. Shows that they KNEW the US $ was worth LESS (than they said it was!) than they said because they paid twice the gold price for gold to do it for the Obango :504:Camel Boyz! :signs14: Just with the facts I would have been buying gold then for the first big push from 1965 to 1980. Now is the second and then Nixon used an EFFECTIVE 10% inflation; Obama is using a lot more. Because Nixon used BILLIONS (1,000,000,000,000) and Obama is using TRILLIONS (1,000,000,000,000 X 1,000 = 1,000,000,000,000,000) the difference is 1,000 times bigger. WE don't know the final numbers in advance, however. But the problems are times 1,000 BIGGER for today. Imagine they just passed a Health care bill that's bigger than all the USA BUDGETS from 1776 to 1976 - 200 years!

mick silver | 03-24-2010 10:11 AM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? i did not see the price what was it hs

HistoryStudent | 03-24-2010 11:49 AM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? Gold was $35 an ounce in 1944 to 1947. USA paid $70 an ounce to mint these for the Camel Boyz. :504: :36_3_12:

esoteric | 03-24-2010 12:07 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? anyone know how much these are going for?

madfranks | 03-24-2010 12:47 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? I found one on ebay but my bet is it's fake. Why? The guy wants you to bank wire transfer him the cash! http://cgi.ebay.com/SAUDI-ARAMCO-USA...item414de3067b

Mr. Shiny | 03-24-2010 01:18 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 2240575) Back in '47 America had to mint these...
Aramco was a PRIVATELY held oil exploration company, NOT the U.S. Gov't.. The Saudis wanted gold as payment for exploration rights on their soil. It's a little hard to pay the Saudis in gold when you aren't allowed to own gold, so Aramco struck a deal with the Mint (read U.S.G.) to make gold 'coinage' specifically for this use.

Mr. Shiny | 03-24-2010 01:38 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 2241361) Gold was $35 an ounce in 1944 to 1947.
Gold was $35usd from late 1933 to 1972, when it jumped to $38usd, then in 1973 it increased to $42.22usd, where it remains to this day. According to the U.S.G. that is. The market price of gold (avg.): 1933-$24.44 1934-$34.94 1935-1967 - $35 1968- $39.26 1969- $41.51 1970- $36.51 1971- $41.25 1972- $58.60 1973- $97.81 (gold window closes) 1974- $159.74 I could go on, but why?

HistoryStudent | 03-24-2010 03:34 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny (Post 2241507) Aramco was a PRIVATELY held oil exploration company, NOT the U.S. Gov't.. The Saudis wanted gold as payment for exploration rights on their soil. It's a little hard to pay the Saudis in gold when you aren't allowed to own gold, so Aramco struck a deal with the Mint (read U.S.G.) to make gold 'coinage' specifically for this use.
Let me get this right, okay. In the same type caustic writing style. A PRIVATE oil company pays $70 an ounce for GOLD and brings it to the US Mint (when private NOBODIES can'T (Capital "T") even own gold in USA) for coins for the Saudis and the GOVY "ain't" involved.:23_28_100s::signs14: Yeah right. Wanta BUY a old Bridge in Brooklyn? Like you can TAKE a tonne of gold right now to the mint and make up coins for "Mr. Shiny Snow Company." Perhaps it all the way you look at what the OFFICIAL GOVY says. I just follow common sence; it would not be too smart for the GOVY to confess back THEN. What really matters is that the US Mint (from 1945-1947 for OIL) made gold coins at twice the price for the Saudis' USE. They did not make a gold coin for Americans from 1933 to 1984 Olympics. I believe. :111::111::signs14:

HistoryStudent | 03-24-2010 03:51 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? COMPANY FOUNDED 1949. http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/about.us/history.htm However, US MINT makes GOLD coins for them from 1945 to 1947. :23_28_100s: Gee who ran it then??? Two guesses... I'll betya some thing ain't right and smells real FISHY :elefant: back at the POST WORLD WAR II at the US Mint? :504: "American (how many, which ones, who and what power do they have?) Arab OIL COMPANY!"

Clawdia | 03-24-2010 03:55 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? Quote:
Originally Posted by madfranks (Post 2241462) I found one on ebay but my bet is it's fake. Why? The guy wants you to bank wire transfer him the cash! http://cgi.ebay.com/SAUDI-ARAMCO-USA...item414de3067b
That's a red flag and a half, from what I've heard. No wire transfers, no way, no how - seems a lot safer.

Mr. Shiny | 03-24-2010 03:57 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? Aramco dates back to 1933, when the Saudi Arabian government signed a concessionary agreement with Standard Oil of California. 1933 - Saudi Arabia grants oil concession to California Arabian Standard Oil Company (CASOC), affiliate of Standard Oil of California (SOCal, today's Chevron). 1936 - Texas Oil Company (now Texaco) acquires 50% interest in SOCal's concession. The joint venture became known as the California Texas Oil Company, or CalTex. 1944 - CASOC changes its name to Arabian American Oil Company (Aramco).

HistoryStudent | 03-24-2010 03:58 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? The ARAMCO site for history is BLOCKED by somebody on NET. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Aramco F I S H Y ************************************************** **** Unusual Items: US Mint �Gold Disks� Made for Oil Payments to Saudi Arabia Print This Article Comment On This ArticleBy CoinLink on Monday, March 22, 2010 Filed Under: Gold & Silver Bullion, History and Numismatics, Items of Interest, US Mint, Unusual Items One of the things we find most exciting about reporting on the numismatic marketplace is coming across those things we either didn�t know beforehand, or finding obscure and unusual numismatic items. Just recently we came across one such item, the Gold Disks produced by the US mint for ARAMCO oil payments to Saudi Arabia after World War II. Below are excerpts from two different articles we located, one from 1981 and the other from 1991. The Coins that Weren�t �In Saudi Arabia, gold coins have always been important in the monetary system. For years, in fact, paper money was unacceptable, and to pay royalties to the government, Aramco once flew kegs of both gold and silver coins to jiddah. In 1952, when the Saudi Arabian Monetary Agency (SAMA) was formed, the first coin issued was a Saudi sovereign � a gold coin equal in weight and value to the British sovereign � that was later demonetized and today sells for about $124. To collectors, however, the most interesting Saudi gold coins weren�t coins at all; they were �gold discs� Similar to coins, they were minted by the Philadelphia Mint in the 1940�s for Aramco, and bore, on one side, the U. S. Eagle and the legend �U. S. Mint, Philadelphia, USA� and, on the other side, three lines on the fineness and weight. They looked like coins, they were used as coins, but, technically, they weren�t coins. In the 1950�s, numismatists were puzzled by these �discs� until-in 1957 � the story emerged in The Numismatist. Aramco, required to pay royalties and other payments in gold to the Saudi government, could not obtain the gold at the monetary price fixed by the United States so the U. S. government specifically began to mint the �discs� � actually bullion in coin form for these payments. In 1945, for example, the mint turned out 91,210 large discs worth $20, and, in 1947,121,364 small discs worth $5, according to The Numismatist. Because most of the discs were melted down for bullion, or later redeemed for the Kingdom�s gold sovereigns, the discs are interesting additions to art collections. But care is necessary as counterfeits are common.� (This article appeared on pages 2-5 of the September/October 1981 print edition of Saudi Aramco World. by Robert Obojski.) On April 14, 1991, the New York Times printed an article by Jed Stevenson on the �disks� in reference to several which were to be sold by Stacks in an upcoming auction in May of 1991. Below are portions of that Article�. �Sometimes coins are minted for the strangest of reasons. Some Saudi Arabian bullion coins, several of which will be auctioned by Stack�s early next month, are a prime example. The coins were struck in Philadelphia by the United States Mint in 1945 and 1947 to satisfy the obligations of the Arabian American Oil Company, or Aramco, which had been set up in Saudi Arabia by four American oil companies. The company was obliged to pay the Saudi Government $3 million a year in oil royalties and its contract specified that the payment be made in gold. The United States dollar at the time was governed by a gold standard that, at least officially, made the dollar worth one thirty-fifth of an ounce of gold. But the price of gold on the open market had skyrocketed during World War II. For a time the Saudis accepted payment in United States currency, but by 1945 they were insisting that the payments in gold be resumed. Aramco sought help from the United States Government. Faced with the prospect of either a cutoff of substantial amounts of Middle Eastern oil or a huge increase in the price of Saudi crude, the Government minted 91,120 large gold disks adorned with the American eagle and the words �U.S. Mint � Philadelphia.� Aramco paid for the minting and the bullion. The coins were shipped off to Saudi Arabia. These bullion coins weighed 493.1 grains, slightly more than a troy ounce, and were 91 2/3 percent gold and 8 1/3 percent copper. The fineness was that of the British sterling system then current in the Middle East. The United States standard was only 90 percent gold. Most of the coins disappeared. The bullion coins were crated and shipped to Bombay, where the $35-an-ounce American gold was sold for $70 an ounce. Most of the coins were melted into bars and later sold in Macao. In 1947, Aramco contracted for 121,364 smaller bullion coins with the same design, but weighing just 123.27 grains. Those coins actually saw some popular use in Saudi Arabia and traded for about $12, or 40 silver Saudi riyals. But the popularity declined after Swiss and Lebanese counterfeiters began striking coins that were similar but less valuable. In 1951, Saudi Arabia began minting its own gold coins and melted down most of the remaining small and large bullion coins from the United States Mint, restriking them as Saudi coins.�

Gcubed | 03-24-2010 04:00 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 2241799) COMPANY FOUNDED 1949. http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/about.us/history.htm However, US MINT makes GOLD coins for them from 1945 to 1947. :23_28_100s: Gee who ran it then??? Two guesses... I'll betya some thing ain't right and smells real FISHY :elefant: back at the POST WORLD WAR II at the US Mint? :504: "American (how many, which ones, who and what power do they have?) Arab OIL COMPANY!"
With all respect, the MAGAZINE was founded in 1949. Take another look at the material at the link. :wink:

Mr. Shiny | 03-24-2010 04:21 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 2241768) A PRIVATE oil company pays $70 an ounce for GOLD
Where did you come up with $70/ozt.? Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 2241768) and brings it to the US Mint (when private NOBODIES can'T (Capital "T") even own gold in USA)
Let's see, I need $3M per year in gold (bullion), do I go to every jeweler and buy their inventory? Oh, just to keep you abreast, you couldn't refine those rings and chains, so unless Hadji was going to be the first Mr. T, he's gonna want bullion. Or do I present my case to the government, who, well damn it, they do have an unlimited supply of gold and they do like oil, and they are allowed to produce coin (disks). Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 2241768) and the GOVY "ain't" involved.
Of course they're involved, they coined the things. But no they aren't 'involved', everything is not some conspiracy. Even if this is GIM.

HistoryStudent | 03-24-2010 04:27 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny (Post 2241857) Where did you come up with $70/ozt.? Let's see, I need $3M per year in gold (bullion), do I go to every jeweler and buy their inventory? Oh, just to keep you abreast, you couldn't refine those rings and chains, so unless Hadji was going to be the first Mr. T, he's gonna want bullion. Or do I present my case to the government, who, well damn it, they do have an unlimited supply of gold and they do like oil, and they are allowed to produce coin (disks). Of course they're involved, they coined the things. But no they aren't 'involved', everything is not some conspiracy. Even if this is GIM.
I agree. Good JOB. AND Frankly, they were actually labeled not a coin - GOLLY gee, I wonder why? Conspiracy is a LOOSE word. I agree it was a COINED conspiracy! :111: Now I almost BOUGHT a NGC AU58 four sovereign piece ARAMCO coin tonight. BUT you (God Bless your pea-pickin' heart) made me rethink the fact that it will always end up NOT A TRUE COIN (kinda like a 1933 Saint being legal). Thanks for your insightful posts - my hat's off to you. PS LOVE the EXPERIENCE part - Mr Shiny!

HistoryStudent | 03-25-2010 04:45 PM
Re: How many tonnes of these went overseas? To answer the ORIGINAL question: They MINTED these (not called coins by the mint) disks at about 91,000 of the almost ONE-OUNCE variety = about almost 3 tonnes at 31,100 ounces per tonne. 121,000 of the one-fourth variety = about almost 1 tonne so they made about four tonnes of gold into these disks which were offensive to the ARABS because the squiggly writing was missing and it had America's Eagle on it. Imagine having four tonnes today. First off it would cost you about twice the spot just to get physical if you really wanted it. (PS that's why back then they paid twice the spot, makes sense, right?) After all the folks that wanted delivery last month in Merry Ole England were bought OFF with a 125% BRIBE. So for immediate delivery expect 200% physical if you did not have a CONTRACT. Second the MINT would give you the Obama Fickle Finger for your request. Third, ah forget it... Sad that they are a NON-coin (more like a token) in the eyes of the hobby. Almost bought one because they are the only gold DISK made by the US Mint from 1934 to 1984 - fifty long years of infamous keeping real money from the stupid sheeple following the crazy shepards into the slaughter yards. sorry :36_3_12::sheep::sheep::sheep::shot:themselves PS today GOLD and SILVER are making a name for themselves as MONEY running up against the US dollar as a safe heaven in paper hell.

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