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- - Grading of off-center minted coins (to TomD) (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=211012)

Master_Ho | 12-11-2007 08:29 PM
Grading of off-center minted coins (to TomD) 1 Attachment(s) Hi folks....... A few weeks ago we had a thread where TomD had a coin that had been minted off-center.....(I apologize for forgetting what thread it was).....and we wondered if it affects the grading of the coin. I included a picture of the coin as posted on GIM. I promised I would contact someone I know at PCGS and ask them........and I would post the response here. Unfortunately, they had to forward it to another department within PCGS and I never heard from them - but I sent a followup email today and just heard back...........so, below, is my email to them, with picture, and then their response to me! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ THIS IS MY EMAIL TO PCGS <!--StartFragment -->The follow ((posted by TomD)) is from a Gold chat site where we talk about coins some...........>> Chuckhammer earlier pointed out that the strike on the GAE pict that I posted last night was off center and the rim thickness varied. I looked at the GAE and it was real, not a photo artifact. I see that this coin too has the same defect and wonder if this is typical of American bullion coins. I can't look through my others now because these coins only leave the safe deposit box for short times for photo ops. See how much thicker the rim is at 5:00 than at 11:00? I've attached the picture.............and then I responded.........>> Hey, that brings up an interesting point - and I am not totally sure how to ask about it - but ask I will.............when PCGS (or another) grading service grades a coin - do they knock a MS70 down to an MS 69 cause the rim might be off like that??? So - could you answer that for us? Thanks!! Ho Attachment 37773 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ THIS IS WHAT PCGS POSTED BACK TO ME <!--StartFragment -->Hello - I apologize you did not get a response sooner. The affect an off-center strike can have on the grade will vary depending on the severity. In your example (based on the image you provided), the off-center does not look significant enough to lower the grade (barring other defects on the reverse of course). The bottom line is it is a case-by-case basis and we would have to see the coin in person to tell you for sure. I hope this helps.

TomD | 12-12-2007 06:49 AM
Re: Grading of off-center minted coins (to TomD) I know nothing about coin grading but now I'm more bewildered than ever. They take it down from 70 for something that can only be seen with a microscope and don't for a noticeable flaw?

aclarky | 12-12-2007 10:13 AM
Re: Grading of off-center minted coins (to TomD) Thanks MasterHo, I was wondering the same thing since the lunar dragon I have is minted off center as well. If it is in the capsule it isn't noticeable at all, but when you remove it you can tell. I had been thinking about buying another and selling the one I have but it would be a pain in the ass. Since I rarely remove it from the capsule I decided it wasn't worth it. I had thought a collector/grader would think it was a bigger deal than PCGS made it out to be. Thanks for posting their response.

AuNuggets | 12-12-2007 02:59 PM
Re: Grading of off-center minted coins (to TomD) Technically, you CAN have a coin that is 50% off center that still grades MS70. A striking error is something completely different than the wear or contact marks used to "grade" a coin. Any coin that is technically in the exact condition as it was when it LEFT THE DIES can be considered MS70, regardless of any "error" in the striking process. "Error" and "grade" are really two separate issues. As far as off-centers, anything less than the width of the original rim of the coin is considered minute and of little interest or importance. 30% to 60% off-center errors are usually considered the most desirable to error collectors.

TomD | 12-12-2007 03:16 PM
Re: Grading of off-center minted coins (to TomD) Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets (Post 871337) 30% to 60% off-center errors are usually considered the most desirable to error collectors.
That must make my coin valuable as hell.

chuckhammer | 12-12-2007 04:38 PM
Re: Grading of off-center minted coins (to TomD) Not to be a nit-picker, but: Looking at real-world examples of the Sheldon Scale being applied to modern bullion coin grading by PCGS/NGC/ANACS (a practice of highly questionable real value), we see that coins which have never been mishandled in any way routinely receive MS-69 rather than the elusive MS-70. It can only be due to the imperfections inherent in the minting process, such as (slightly) off-center strikes. Weak strikes would be another example. As far as the market is concerned, I think we can agree that a perfectly center-struck coin that is otherwise identical to a slightly (but noticably) off-center-struck coin will either sell faster or at a higher price. Perhaps both.

Master_Ho | 12-12-2007 04:39 PM
Re: Grading of off-center minted coins (to TomD) Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 871386) That must make my coin valuable as hell.
I don't think your coin it off that much - is it? Doesn't look more than a bit off in the picture...........someone happened to notice it - it wasn't like everyone was going - "Holy crap, look how off center that was!" *lol*

Master_Ho | 12-12-2007 04:48 PM
Re: Grading of off-center minted coins (to TomD) Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckhammer (Post 871502) Not to be a nit-picker, but: Looking at real-world examples of the Sheldon Scale being applied to modern bullion coin grading by PCGS/NGC/ANACS (a practice of highly questionable real value), we see that coins which have never been mishandled in any way routinely receive MS-69 rather than the elusive MS-70. It can only be due to the imperfections inherent in the minting process, such as (slightly) off-center strikes. Weak strikes would be another example. As far as the market is concerned, I think we can agree that a perfectly center-struck coin that is otherwise identical to a slightly (but noticably) off-center-struck coin will either sell faster or at a higher price. Perhaps both.
A lot of coins grade MS69 instead of MS70 for reasons it takes a microscope to see - and thats what they use to grade. I had a number of gold Buffalos graded - almost all were MS69 but neither my dealer nor I could see any reason whatsoever for them not being MS70. He used a loupe - I had a set of goggles that magnify (to allow one to keep their hands free) and neither of us could see anything on the MS69 coins...........nothing. But my goggles have an additional loupe (for an additional cost) and when I lowered it - there was this tiny little dot of a hole in the metal.......raise the loupe and you couldn't see it......lower it and you could......it is seriously microscopic........but that was enough to lose it one MS-step........down to a MS69......... I too feel grading is an opinion.......but also one has to consider, often they find things we do not see with our naked eyes, magnifying glasses, regular loupes, or whatever......and its another Tao thing: one the one hand, its so trite and picky that it almost seems unfair and nit-picky.......on the other, when you have an MS70, it means they really DID go over it with a microscope and the MS70 grade really does means something.

twenty4karat | 12-13-2007 03:35 AM
Re: Grading of off-center minted coins (to TomD) I found one in my 2007 Silver State Quarter set. It looks like it's more than 30% off. I not sure what is considered an error in this case. Maranatha, :smile:

TomD | 12-13-2007 07:28 AM
Re: Grading of off-center minted coins (to TomD) How do you define % off? Is it the ratio of the thinnest to thickest rim dimension?

AuNuggets | 12-13-2007 10:12 AM
Re: Grading of off-center minted coins (to TomD) 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 872348) How do you define % off? Is it the ratio of the thinnest to thickest rim dimension?
It's measured linear from the clock position of the widest BLANK portion. If there is 25% blank area, it is "25% off center". Here is an example: This dime is approx. 50% off center (% of blank section in comparison to the full diameter of a normal coin) to the 1:00 position. Half of that amount of blank area would be "25% off center".....etc

twenty4karat | 12-13-2007 02:42 PM
Re: Grading of off-center minted coins (to TomD) Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets (Post 872532) It's measured linear from the clock position of the widest BLANK portion. If there is 25% blank area, it is "25% off center". Here is an example: This dime is approx. 50% off center (% of blank section in comparison to the full diameter of a normal coin) to the 1:00 position. Half of that amount of blank area would be "25% off center".....etc
In that case I'm about 3-5% off center. I was measuring just the rim itself. Maranatha, :size:

Paranoid Android | 12-14-2007 12:20 AM
Re: Grading of off-center minted coins (to TomD) 1 Attachment(s) here is an off-center coin I came across some time ago. would this have numismatic value then?

AuNuggets | 12-14-2007 09:31 AM
Re: Grading of off-center minted coins (to TomD) Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid Android (Post 873768) here is an off-center coin I came across some time ago. would this have numismatic value then?
Off-center cents are fairly common, and don't have alot of value. Most later O/C cents (zin-based) sell for only a few dollars each, sometimes just a buck apiece in quantity. The one in your photo is a NICE piece though.

TomD | 12-14-2007 10:01 AM
Re: Grading of off-center minted coins (to TomD) Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets (Post 874207) Off-center cents are fairly common, and don't have alot of value. Most later O/C cents (zin-based) sell for only a few dollars each, sometimes just a buck apiece in quantity. The one in your photo is a NICE piece though.
Though I don't think they would remain in circulation long, you would think that over the maybe millions of pennies that I've seen, I would have seen one somewhere along the line.

Paranoid Android | 12-14-2007 08:08 PM
Re: Grading of off-center minted coins (to TomD) Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets (Post 874207) Off-center cents are fairly common, and don't have alot of value. Most later O/C cents (zin-based) sell for only a few dollars each, sometimes just a buck apiece in quantity. The one in your photo is a NICE piece though.
yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking... not rare or valuable but interesting anyway. thanks for the info AuNuggets. :)

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