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- - Panda Value (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=162734)

TomD | 08-03-2007 12:33 PM
Panda Value I know Chinese Pandas are dimly viewed here and I know that the reputation is well deserved due to the rampant counterfeiting originating in China. It was about a year and a half ago that I became aware of the problem. Before that though, I had collected about 70 of them, mostly sheets of 10 in various years, all from 1997 to 2005. I bought a couple from good dealers in 2006 & 2007 but I haven't really paid any attention to the market. I just happened onto the quotes for them over on A****, and the 2004's and before seem to be worth from $35-$65 per coin. Are those very optimistic prices by A**** or are they really selling for that now? http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x.../2006panda.jpg

lhslancers | 08-03-2007 12:35 PM
Re: Panda Value I'd sell all I had to him Tom. As we go up the questions will come up again. Best out of that problem.

TomD | 08-03-2007 12:50 PM
Re: Panda Value Sorta ironic but I went over to ebay to see what they are going for there, and find this:http://cgi.ebay.com/FAKE-SILVER-PAND...QQcmdZViewItem

mozkill | 08-03-2007 01:22 PM
Re: Panda Value Seems to me that you could get more for melted down fake pandas than you could for actual fake pandas. i mean, who wants a fake panda???:confused_ma:

Big_Rob | 08-03-2007 01:28 PM
Re: Panda Value Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 684226) Sorta ironic but I went over to ebay to see what they are going for there, and find this:http://cgi.ebay.com/FAKE-SILVER-PAND...QQcmdZViewItem
Ouch!!! That would be a hard pill to swallow...

TomD | 08-03-2007 01:42 PM
Re: Panda Value Quote:
Originally Posted by mozkill (Post 684252) Seems to me that you could get more for melted down fake pandas than you could for actual fake pandas. i mean, who wants a fake panda???:confused_ma:
Problem being that the fakes are plated copper, of course these days 27 grams of copper is worth $.25

Anty Ep | 08-03-2007 01:55 PM
Re: Panda Value Quote:
Originally Posted by mozkill (Post 684252) Seems to me that you could get more for melted down fake pandas than you could for actual fake pandas. i mean, who wants a fake panda???:confused_ma:
somebody who's going to sell em to a sucker, thats who

CJul | 08-03-2007 04:30 PM
Re: Panda Value I had a few pandas - nothing serious, two gold and about 20 silver. Decided to sell them when all this fake stuff blew up. Got a bit more than I paid for both, esp the gold. I'm pretty sure the ones I had were genuine, but I don't really want to hold stuff that may be suspect in later years. There were many questions (I sold on ebay) about authenticity. Also at the time I was disgusted with the Chinese govt for doing nothing about the fakes. Now I am disgusted with the Perth Mint for different reasons ..... One devil in exchange for another � BUT � I know counterfeiting is practically cultural in many parts of the East, but can't imagine either the US or Aus govt. turning a blind eye to this kind of volume ....

TomD | 08-04-2007 08:15 AM
Re: Panda Value 2 Attachment(s) I traded emails with the guy who listed the fake Pandas on ebay. I'm going to buy one from him, photograph it in detail, weigh and measure it, then dissect it. I have some fakes that I got from early 2006 that I did the same process on and I'm curious to see if the crooks have made progress since then. From certain clues on the pagota, not to mention the weight, I could tell. I'll do a report and post it here. I'll include pictures of old fake, new fake and real. Below are closeup pictures of the pagota of a real and a fake. Real is on the left.

KASHMAN02 | 08-04-2007 09:56 AM
Re: Panda Value I guess best thing is take them out of wrap and holder and weigh them.

CJul | 08-04-2007 04:37 PM
Re: Panda Value Quote:
Originally Posted by KASHMAN02 (Post 685019) I guess best thing is take them out of wrap and holder and weigh them.
mnn so I wonder why, out of all bullion silver coins, the pandas come in capsules AND sealed in plastic????

TomD | 08-04-2007 05:28 PM
Re: Panda Value With the fakes that I've seen in the past, is you didn't have to take them out. One of the reasons I'm so keen to get my hands on a fake is that I used to be able to tell the older fakes by eye. Just the detailing of the round structure at the top of the pagota was a giveaway along with several other obvious differences. I now have examples of 2 lots of fakes and the pagota side of all came from the same die. The mistakes are all identical, no matter the "year". So apparently there was one counterfeiter making lots of coins and selling to multiples of distributors. I'm really curious to see if the newer fake has the same or a different set of mistakes.

Andy9999 | 08-05-2007 10:55 AM
Re: Panda Value Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 684982) I've been having a email discussion with the guy who listed the fake Pandas on ebay. I'm going to buy one from him, photograph it in detail, weigh and measure it, then dissect it. I have some fakes that I got from early 2006 that I did the same process on and I'm curious to see if the crooks have made progress since then. From certain clues on the pagota, not to mention the weight, I could tell. I'll do a report and post it here. I'll include pictures of old fake, new fake and real. Below are closeup pictures of the pagota of a real and a fake. Real is on the left.
there is no left, it is up or below could you please sepcify thanks Tom great job

TomD | 08-05-2007 02:35 PM
Re: Panda Value 1 Attachment(s) I don't know how they orient in a smaller screen but I loaded the real panda first, so it is probably on top like FRG says. The fake has a couple of scratches in the mirrored background on the upper left. Fla Racing Girl, I'd love to borrow two of your fakes, I'm extremely interested to see if it came from the same dies as my two lots and the fake that I'll get next week. I'd like to see the 1995 because I have a fake 1995 and the 2001 because I have a real 01 plus I don't have any fakes of new design. I won't do the same to them as in the picture below. I'll PM my address to you and don't worry, I'm pretty reliable.

Andy9999 | 08-05-2007 03:26 PM
Re: Panda Value thank you Tom I will check my pandas under mignifier

TomD | 08-05-2007 04:19 PM
Re: Panda Value 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy9999 (Post 685971) thank you Tom I will check my pandas under magnifier
Until, I get hold of some new lots of fakes, I can't be sure that they all have the same mistakes. If the coin is 40 mm in diameter and weighs 31.2 grams +/- .2 grams is the best way. Do you have scales? Where did yours come from? A Chinese ebay seller might be your first clue. From a quality dealer, you're prolly OK. Fact: anyone who wants to invest in or collect bullion or numismatic coins simply must get scales capable of at least 1/10th gram and very preferably 1/100th of a gram. In addition, you need need digital calipers similar to that pictured below.

coinhawke | 08-10-2007 08:28 AM
Re: Panda Value Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 684211) I know Chinese Pandas are dimly viewed here and I know that the reputation is well deserved due to the rampant counterfeiting originating in China. It was about a year and a half ago that I became aware of the problem. Before that though, I had collected about 70 of them, mostly sheets of 10 in various years, all from 1997 to 2005. I bought a couple from good dealers in 2006 & 2007 but I haven't really paid any attention to the market. I just happened onto the quotes for them over on A****, and the 2004's and before seem to be worth from $35-$65 per coin. Are those very optimistic prices by A**** or are they really selling for that now? http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x.../2006panda.jpg
Your thread seems to have gone off on a "fake" discussion without anyone answering your question. The most recent Numismatic news shows ads for pandas for sale, and prices range from $32.50 for 2002 1 oz. all the way to $129.00 for the 1991 and 2000. Some of the earlier silver pandas can go for a pricey premium compared to the more recent ones you have. I believe the panda series will continue to rise in value. Hope this helps with your original question. Feel free to pm me if you have any specific questions....I seem to have gotten pretty heavy into the silver pandas.

momopanda | 08-10-2007 09:03 AM
Re: Panda Value Thanks TomD , this will be a very helpful thread for Panda collectors. I'm curious to know if anyone has seen counterfeited Proof versions of the Silver Pandas. Not the early years 83-85,87, which are all considered proof quality , but the later years 89-96 , and specifically the "P" marked versions of 89-94. Thanks. Tom www.pandausa.com has good photos of all years I think , obverse and revese , for reference. Not as good as your photos obviously , but helpful. And there is a pretty helpful guide to spotting fakes by an eBay user named poconopenn , under his user guide thing.

TomD | 08-10-2007 12:52 PM
Re: Panda Value Quote:
Originally Posted by coinhawke (Post 691124) Your thread seems to have gone off on a "fake" discussion without anyone answering your question. The most recent Numismatic news shows ads for pandas for sale, and prices range from $32.50 for 2002 1 oz. all the way to $129.00 for the 1991 and 2000. Some of the earlier silver pandas can go for a pricey premium compared to the more recent ones you have.
You're right, the post drifted immediately. The prices you quoted seem to track Apmex and a couple of other sites that I've checked but not ebay. The prices on ebay are mostly substantially less pretty much across the board. Hummm, I wonder why that is. You don't think it would have anything to do with ebay being the epicenter of the massive counterfeiting activity, do you? Most of my Pandas were bought in 05 and very early 06 at a pricey (for the time) low-to-mid $teens. Mid-summer last year, I doid stumble a pawn shop selling a handful of mixed date Pandas for spot + $1.00. That was a "gimme all you got now before you have a chance to think about it" moment. I did remove a couple from the packs for weighing before I left the shop. I now have received the fake that I purposely bought on ebay and the two other fakes that Fl Racing Girl generously lent to me. I'll photo & measure them in detail and hacksaw mine in half to check on internal composition. The really good news is that of the 2 new type panda fakes that I have access to, they are both miserable. There is no possibility of not instantly noticing if you have a real coin there to compare. Different story on the older ones though, the real coins were much simpler then and much easier to duplicate. I't will be prolly Sunday before I'll have a chance to do the photos and writeup.

coinhawke | 08-10-2007 05:10 PM
Re: Panda Value I have two 1994 really nice fakes and a 1983,1984, and 1985 pieces of crap if that would help your research...let me know if you'd like me to send them to you. Best to your endeavours.. coinhawkes

TomD | 08-10-2007 05:35 PM
Re: Panda Value Quote:
Originally Posted by coinhawke (Post 691772) I have two 1994 really nice fakes and a 1983,1984, and 1985 pieces of crap if that would help your research...let me know if you'd like me to send them to you. Best to your endeavours.. coinhawkes
Absolutely, I'll PM you with my address. As of now, I have fakes from 3 different sources but I'm seeing a real commonality to the obverse (pagota) side but a lot of differentiation in the other side. The pagota sides all seem to be done very well with real scrutiny necessary to spot the fakes. The reverse sides are uneven in quality. I'm beginning to think that there is a single set, or maker, of the obverse dies and, since they are common to so many coins, a large amount of care was expended on them. The reverse side, being unique to individual years, has a much lesser degree of care taken. The 2001 fakes that I have now have very badly done reverses but the obverse is extremely well done and is, in fact, better than the real.. The more sources of coins that I can examine, the better my conclusion. Thanks, check your PM

AlwaysWrite | 08-10-2007 06:25 PM
Re: Panda Value Tom, it would be VERY interesting if, after examing these coins, you came up with some sort of webpage (I'm sure someone could host - actually, it's such a worthwhile endeavor, I'd be glad to host it) with pics describing the details of the fakes and how to spot them. It would be a great resource for everyone.

TomD | 08-10-2007 07:18 PM
Re: Panda Value Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysWrite (Post 691891) Tom, it would be VERY interesting if, after examing these coins, you came up with some sort of webpage (I'm sure someone could host - actually, it's such a worthwhile endeavor, I'd be glad to host it) with pics describing the details of the fakes and how to spot them. It would be a great resource for everyone.
Actually was entertaining just such a thing. I've seen a number of places on the web with fake pandas as the subject but nobody seems to have done it rigorously. More, nobody with photographic skills seems to have attempted. I guess there aren't that many engineer/photographers with time to spare and an interest in coins out there. You'd think they would be at least as numerous as wrestling fans anyway. Perhaps the idea could be expanded to include counterfeit and fake coins as a general classification. God knows a resource is badly needed. Very possibly on your offer, very possibly.

AlwaysWrite | 08-10-2007 09:58 PM
Re: Panda Value It's certainly needed - I was looking through the Panda book that FL RacingGal was kind enough to lend me, and even those pictures PALE in comparison to yours. Also, it's in Chinese, so there's nothing to read, it doesn't tell me where to look for discrepancies. Your photo skills and knowledge of fakes could make for a fantastic resource, whether on a web site, or even if you wanted to make a book! You could also help prevent GIM'ers at least from ever being taken by a fake - a couple of clear pics and a discussion saying "notice the different detail on the third step" etc. would let us all (a) avoid buying fakes, and (b) feel confident in our existing stash.

Andy9999 | 08-10-2007 10:29 PM
Re: Panda Value Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 686006) Until, I get hold of some new lots of fakes, I can't be sure that they all have the same mistakes. If the coin is 40 mm in diameter and weighs 31.2 grams +/- .2 grams is the best way. Do you have scales? Where did yours come from? A Chinese ebay seller might be your first clue. From a quality dealer, you're prolly OK. Fact: anyone who wants to invest in or collect bullion or numismatic coins simply must get scales capable of at least 1/10th gram and very preferably 1/100th of a gram. In addition, you need need digital calipers similar to that pictured below.
Sorry for not responding<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> My coins came from coin dealer and all look OK so far <o:p></o:p> They are in plastic capsule and clear plastic cover<o:p></o:p>

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