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- - Nightmare (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=35393)

TomD | 05-01-2006 07:03 PM
Nightmare 1 Attachment(s) The picture will speak for itself, this will get worse--- I know of no way to protect from this. On edit: The picture came from here but you will have to hunt a bit to find it: http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/...tlook_0310.htm As the text describes, it rings differently. These bars were made back in the boom as silver approached $50. Don't be surprised to see it again.

DrillAndFill | 05-01-2006 07:14 PM
Re: Nightmare This should be a fun thread. Whatever happened to the smiley holding the popcorn?

rad | 05-01-2006 07:15 PM
Re: Nightmare buy coins junk silver etc as it becomes a problem they will be worth less than spot due to need to remelt and assay.

<SLV> | 05-01-2006 07:18 PM
Re: Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD The picture will speak for itself, this will get worse--- I know of no way to protect from this.
Is this a doctored photo? Can your provide us with a reliable source?

Ardent Listener | 05-01-2006 07:38 PM
Re: Nightmare I doubt it would be possible to cast a bar like that. Lead melts at a much lower temp. than silver. Still, I'm glad I'm into that "worn" 90% junk.

Floyd | 05-01-2006 07:42 PM
Re: Nightmare I'd be curious to know what drew attention to this bar.Did it fail the ring test. Is the ring test reliable? Did it look or feel odd? I have both poured and pressed bars ,they all ring.Would they ring if they were slugged?Where is Joe the Jeweler?!

dust_bunny | 05-01-2006 07:50 PM
Re: Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardent Listener I doubt it would be possible to cast a bar like that. Lead melts at a much lower temp. than silver. Still, I'm glad I'm into that "worn" 90% junk.
Since lead melts at 371C and silver is at 961C I'd say they drilled an actual silver bar then poured the lead in those holes and somehow covered the end. Though all you'd need to check is look at the density. Mass/volume should be 10490 kg/m<sup>3</sup>

Tn...Andy | 05-01-2006 08:13 PM
Re: Nightmare and it looks like the bar was sawed in half to show the internal filling.

Ardent Listener | 05-01-2006 08:17 PM
Re: Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by dust_bunny Since lead melts at 371C and silver is at 961C I'd say they drilled an actual silver bar then poured the lead in those holes and somehow covered the end. Though all you'd need to check is look at the density. Mass/volume should be 10490 kg/m<SUP>3</SUP>
I think someone drilled those holes in that bar all right. But as the picture shows the cut end was not "somehow covered". I would like to see an X-Ray of an intact bar.

TheKingsSon | 05-01-2006 08:21 PM
Re: Nightmare look at the bright side, it least there's some silver there :wink:

Tn...Andy | 05-01-2006 08:25 PM
Re: Nightmare I suspect an 'x-ray' of about ANY metal bar would show this big, white, rectangular blob with a totally black background. We got any X-ray specialists that want to confirm that.

Ardent Listener | 05-01-2006 08:28 PM
Re: Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by Tn...Andy I suspect an 'x-ray' of about ANY metal bar would show this big, white, rectangular blob with a totally black background. We got any X-ray specialists that want to confirm that.
I'm not a specialist but lead will block X-Rays more so than silver. Metals are often X-rayed in order to check for stress in them.

Large Sarge | 05-01-2006 08:29 PM
Re: Nightmare why not ask drill and fill, instead of joe the jeweler, seems we need an expert at this "Drilling and filling" business unless that user id has a different connotation....

DrillAndFill | 05-01-2006 08:31 PM
Re: Nightmare From the context on the site where this photo was found, this example is from the early eighties. The incidence of these fakes in the marketplace was never more than a tiny, tiny fraction. Your odds of getting zapped by this are slim indeed. Yes, I chose my user ID for this practice. I was being mordant and arch. I don't know anything about the manufacture and sale of 45% bars and rounds. Trust me.

Ardent Listener | 05-01-2006 08:33 PM
Re: Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by DrillAndFill From the context on the site where this photo was found, this example is from the early eighties. The incidence of these fakes in the marketplace was never more than a tiny, tiny fraction. Your odds of getting zapped by this are slim indeed.
But with high priced silver won't we see a lot more of them?

DrillAndFill | 05-01-2006 08:48 PM
Re: Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardent Listener But with high priced silver won't we see a lot more of them?
I don't know for sure, but even at $40/oz. during the big spike these filled bars were rare. Since that equates to an estimated $110/oz. today -- remember that fakes will be rare at that price -- I have a hard time believing that these are a serious threat, particularly if you buy from and sell to dealers. Somebody -- Silverstreak, maybe? -- said that during the Hunt spike the 100 ouncers had to go to the refiner before dealers would give you the full amount for them, but you still got the full amount. I'm sitting on a bunch, and I am in no hurry to get rid of them. When silver goes nuts, you should not have problems finding a market for 100-ounce chunks of it, even if individual investors shy away from this form. Prices that high mean that industrial users will be desperate -- you'll get your money for these bricks.

samwheat | 05-01-2006 08:55 PM
Re: Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by DrillAndFill I'm sitting on a bunch, and I am in no hurry to get rid of them. When silver goes nuts, you should not have problems finding a market for 100-ounce chunks of it, even if individual investors shy away from this form. Prices that high mean that industrial users will be desperate -- you'll get your money for these bricks.
when the frn collapses you better get many balony sandwiches for one of your bars BTW I saw that pic about 5 years ago

SilverHare | 05-01-2006 09:29 PM
Re: Nightmare I specifically asked CNI about buying back a 100oz bar and if there would be any delay for assay due to the possibility of "drill and fill." "No. We can tell," was the answer. "Your check will go out the day we receive the bar." He didn't say how they can tell, but there you are, right from the horse's mouth. They must have their ways (specific gravity test?). Now, will that hold with silver at $500/oz? I guess we'll see.

Quixote2 | 05-01-2006 09:43 PM
Re: Nightmare They are silver plating copper for one ounce troy rounds and for fake silver dollars now. When silver gets to $100 per ozt, they will be counterfeiting dimes. Can you detect a 100 ozt silver plated molybdenum bar, complete with fake Engleahard serial number?

Ardent Listener | 05-01-2006 10:07 PM
Re: Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by BW3 They are silver plating copper for one ounce troy rounds and for fake silver dollars now. When silver gets to $100 per ozt, they will be counterfeiting dimes. Can you detect a 100 ozt silver plated molybdenum bar, complete with fake Engleahard serial number?
Then silver is worthle$$ !!!! I'll get rid of mine tomorrow !!!! I'll buy bullets instead. No wait, what if they are all counterfeit???????:haha:

Manager Mr | 05-01-2006 10:21 PM
Re: Nightmare Wow! Could be one of the best ways of scaring J6P right out of ever wanting to invest in PM ... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: TPTB "Paper good Metals Bad" :rolleyes:

SilverHare | 05-01-2006 11:08 PM
Re: Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by BW3 They are silver plating copper for one ounce troy rounds and for fake silver dollars now. When silver gets to $100 per ozt, they will be counterfeiting dimes. Can you detect a 100 ozt silver plated molybdenum bar, complete with fake Engleahard serial number?
The answer is yes. Molybdenum bars could be simply tested for by either a ring test (the two metals have vastly different resonation characteristics), or by electrical resistivity--test equipment for that would be trivial to design. X-rays would also work great. Surplus fluoroscopes could be used cheaply and easily with minimal training (yes, different metals pass x-rays differently, look at the screen in the airport next time!). Also remember, Joe Criminal can drill and fill with lead in his garage (melts at 621F). Takes some serious equipment and skill to melt and cast molybdenum, which melts at 4753F...1000F hotter than lava! The fake bar fears are vastly overblown--unless you buy on eBay from China, in which case.... :haha:

AuNuggets | 05-03-2006 11:44 AM
Re: Nightmare I've been involved in the metal detecting hobby for many years, both using and designing different aspects of the machines. Any modern discriminating or "identifying" metal detector can be used to test the effective conductivity of a metal object. As long as you have one of these bars that you know is good, you can easily tell the difference between the good one and one that has been drilled and filled like the one in the photo. Silver has the highest relative conductivity of all metals, while lead is somewhat lower on the scale. In the case of a drill and fill bar, the combined conductivity of the two metals would tend to lower the overall effective conductivity of the piece. With a simple discriminating metal detector, the discrimination control should have to be turned up much higher to eliminate the signal from the pure silver bar as opposed to the lead filled bar. Some newer digital machines will give you a numeric read out value on the target, and should show a very marked difference in the good bar and bad bar. FWIW

SilverHare | 05-03-2006 01:01 PM
Re: Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets I've been involved in the metal detecting hobby for many years, both using and designing different aspects of the machines. Any modern discriminating or "identifying" metal detector can be used to test the effective conductivity of a metal object.
A metal detector!! (smacks forehead) Of course...here I was sort of mulling over how I'd handle designing such a device...but the solution was right there all along. I wonder if CNI uses a metal detector to verify the bars?

SilverHare | 05-03-2006 01:08 PM
Re: Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber Can anyone tell me how to perform a ring test on 100oz bar? Thanks!
Based on my experience as a percussionist, I wrapped two lengths of fishing line around a ammo box I had handy. I rest the bar carefully across the two monofilament lines so it's evenly suspended, and then strike it with a drumstick handle. Tinggggg! Can't miss it. :rock:

gunner | 05-03-2006 01:17 PM
Re: Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by Large Sarge why not ask drill and fill, instead of joe the jeweler, seems we need an expert at this "Drilling and filling" business unless that user id has a different connotation....
I thought he was a dentist :confused:

HistoryStudent | 05-03-2006 06:05 PM
Re: Nightmare rest of the story on the cited page - tells how to check your bars! ************************************************** ******** Buying silver bullion - Warning! I do not mean to alarm anyone because the likelihood of this happening to you was quite remote. But the photograph below was taken of a 100 oz silver bar that was cut in half to show how thieves can remove silver content without it being easily detected. As you can see, holes were bored into the bar and replaced with lead. Since silver and lead are very similar on the scientific element tables, the weight and feel of these tainted bars are indetectable. Weight and specific-gravity tests are not sufficient for those of us in the non-scientific world. There are several things you can do to detect the drill-outs: (1) hold the bar between your thumb and first finger at a corner and then rap the bar like you would a tuning fork. The bars containing lead will have more of a thud sound than a nice ringing that you get from a pure bar of silver. (2) Most bar manufacturers make their bars with slightly more than 100 oz -- if you use a small (1/8" or less) drill bit into the top-center of the bar and drill down only 1/4 inch. If there are lead bore holes, then you should see the drill crumbs turn dark as it cuts the lead. Personally, I am reluctant to do this because I fear that the bars would not be as re-sellable... however, several of the major precious metals dealers that I work with in Houston have assured me that a tiny drill hole only 1/4" deep in the center does not affect the resaleability of the bars. The dealers have assured me that the slightly extra silver in each bar is sufficient to keep the bar at its 100 oz weight. During the 1980's silver bubble when prices went above $50 per oz and one 100 oz bar was worth $5000, apparently thieves were willing to risk getting caught for their monetary reward in performing the drill-outs. As far as I can find, the only bars that were affected were 100 oz Englehard with a serial number that started with P or C. I have not contacted Englehard directly for verification, but apparently all known conterfeits have been removed from the market. However, everyone should be cautious that there may still be a few circulating around that have not yet been detected. Until recently, 100 oz silver bars were not being fabricated, thus all 100 oz bars being traded were leftovers from the 1980s era. Now, Englehard and Johnson & Matthey are fabricating new 100 oz bars. The Englehard bars are almost identical to the old bars. The new Johnson & Matthey bars are poured with rounded sides and corners, so it will be much more difficult to modify by thieves. Thank you to Houston Precious Metals owner John Hendlemeyer for providing the sample of the conterfeit bar for my photograph. If you are planning to buy a large quantity of 100 oz silver bars and they are of the variety in the photo, then I recommend that you randomly select a few bars and ask your dealer to perform the drill test for you. Silver bullion takes up a lot more physical space than gold bullion. If you have limited vault space available and you want to hold some silver, then I recommend 100 oz bars. They are uniform size, stack easily, and the weight is manageable. 50 oz bars are good too, but they are not freely traded as the 100 oz bars. Also available are bulk bags of 90% U.S. silver coins. These were minted prior to 1964 for dimes, quarters, and half dollars. From 1965 to present, the coins are sandwiched with various alloys, none of which contains any silver (although 1965 coins hold a small amount, about 40%, but overall too bulky to consider for investment purposes). The 90% silver bags are normally sold in bags of $500 or $1000 face value. This means a $1000 bag contains either 2000 half-dollars, 4000 quarters, or 10,000 dimes. $1000 of face value for any of these coins contains about 722 oz of silver. The size of these coins was specifically designed to maintain a "monetary value" of $1.28/oz of silver but this was back in the days when the U.S. government openly maintained a market price of less than $1.28/oz. When spot silver prices moved above $1.28, people tended to hoard the coins and melt them down to get more value. Since 1964, the U.S. government no longer tries to maintain any specific price for silver since there is no longer any monetary value in our circulated coins. If you have sufficient storage space available, then 90% silver coins is the best silver value -- currently $1000 bags sell for around $3400 per bag with about $100 extra premium for half dollars. 100 oz bars normally will carry a slightly higher premium above spot silver prices, but 100 oz bars are much easier to store. The one additional side benefit to the coins is that if you ever get desperate enough, you can still spend the coins because they will still work in vending machines and are accepted by merchants. Silver bars, however, will normally be traded with dealers, but silver bars are the most liquid and almost anyone world-wide will accept standard silver bars. One of the methods that less-reputable dealers use in dealing with 90% silver bags is to use more of the older coins. For example with quarters, the vast majority of the coins will be Washington-head (1932-present) coins, but you might get a few of the older Standing Liberty (1916-1930) or Barber (1892-1916) coins. These quarters are so old, that they are usually worn down to the point that the minting date is no longer visible. If these coins had a mint date, they would likely have collector value, so if they are in your bag chances are that they have no collector value. These well-worn coins contain much less silver than less-worn coins. When you buy bagged coins, take a random scan to make sure that you do not have a large quantity of these older coins, although a few dozen per bag is considered normal... while it may sound as though the older coins might be worth more for collectors, without a mint date they are essentially worth no more than their silver content, and it does not matter if the coin was originally minted in 1964 or 1864. Click each image to enlarge. Until silver prices move substantially higher, I do not anticipate that thieves will have any incentive to counterfeit silver bars. But if/when prices move much higher, please be cautious of each new silver bullion purchase. Silver/Gold Bullion Strategy As a Silver/Gold bull, my long term plan is to keep silver and gold bullion in storage vaults for at least another 5-8 years, possibly longer. But during this time it is possible to gain additional value (and compound your investment) by trading when the price ratios are to your advantage. For example, right now gold is about $325 and silver $4.50. The gold/silver ratio is 72.2 which means it now takes 72 oz of silver to purchase one oz of gold. Over time, the price ratio between gold and silver changes and oscillates. When the gold/silver ratio moves higher sell gold and buy silver -- when the ratio moves lower, buy gold and sell silver. The idea is to always keep silver or gold (or both), you simply move the bulk of your holding from one metal to the other, but always holding something. This way, if/when price moves much higher, both metals will participate. As we saw during the 2002 gold mini-bubble, gold tends to move first, but silver will soon follow. Silver should be thought of as the "poor man's gold". Right now, the ratio favors buying silver. One important caveat for this strategy, when trading one metal for the other make sure the dealers premium costs or commisions make the whole trade worthwhile. For example: assume gold is at $325 and there is a $5 premium to buy a Krugerand coin and no premium when selling -- thus, buying costs $330 and selling you would only get $325. For silver assume $4.50/oz with a $0.30 premium for 100 oz bars to buy and zero premium to sell. Thus, it costs $330 to buy 1 oz of gold or 68 3/4 oz silver. Let's say you have a choice of buying 7 - 100 oz bars of silver for $3360 (7 x 100 x 4.80) or buying 10 oz of gold for $3300 (10 x 330). If spot gold prices rise to $400 and silver to $8 the ratio is 50... perhaps you believe it is a good time to switch to gold, so you sell 7 bars for $5600 (7 x 100 x 8, no premium) and buy 14 oz of gold for $5670 (14 x 405). For the extra $70 that transaction cost, you now have 4 more onces of gold than you would have had if you originally bought gold instead of silver. Going to the next step, if prices continue higher to $600 gold and $10 silver and you believe it is time to switch back to silver, then selling 14 oz of gold for $8400 (14 x 600, no premium) you could buy 8 - 100 oz bars for $8240 (8 x 100 x 10.30). You would gain an extra 100 oz bar plus pocket $160 in cash (with which to buy more silver, of course). As gold and silver prices rally and retrace, the gold/silver ratio also changes. When you get to a point where switching from one metal to the other gains additional ounces, then consider taking advantage of the opportunity. The most important thing to remember is to always stay in one metal or the other, don't try to time the whole market because you might miss out if/when prices surge again. In a strict buy-and-hold strategy, gold and silver do not return any dividends or interest, only the potential for price appreciation. Thus, gold and silver are simply a store of value. The strategy I have outlined keeps you in the market at all times (so you still get the benefit of "store of value"), yet you can compound your investment along the way as the market provides the opportunities. P.S. HS note: 26 years ago the serial numbers were quite low. After that silver dived and never recovered until very recently. Clang two bars together they will make that UNMISTAKEABLE sliver "clang." Like a gold coin on a wooden table.

HistoryStudent | 05-03-2006 06:17 PM
Re: Nightmare Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD The picture will speak for itself, this will get worse--- I know of no way to protect from this. On edit: The picture came from here but you will have to hunt a bit to find it: http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/...tlook_0310.htm As the text describes, it rings differently. These bars were made back in the boom as silver approached $50. Don't be surprised to see it again.
LOW LOW serial number on this baby too.

Ponce Cuba | 05-03-2006 06:31 PM
Re: Nightmare That's why 80% of my silver is in the form of one oz round,,,,,,harder to copy, and my other 20% ten oz bars are Jhonson something or another, you can tell that they are real.......even smells like real silver hahahahahaha.

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