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- - Coin counterfeiter gets busted (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=416437)

goldfingerer | 10-17-2009 07:28 AM
Coin counterfeiter gets busted Double check those high grade PCGS morgans you got! http://www.contracostatimes.com/spor...nclick_check=1

SilverCat | 10-17-2009 11:36 AM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted I'd have to say that it's an inside job with the family member fencing the coins. Or someone taking advantage of a family member's trust. Maybe they weren't looked at very closely because of that. Either way, it makes you wonder about what you might be buying sometimes.

Drumblebum | 10-17-2009 11:50 AM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Link no worky?

Junk Woody | 10-17-2009 12:38 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumblebum (Post 1977312) Link no worky?
+1 doesn't work for me either

SilverCat | 10-17-2009 12:41 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Works for me.

TheSkeptic | 10-17-2009 12:52 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted I had to try it a couple of times. http://www.contracostatimes.com/sports-headlines/ci_13569440?nclick_check=1&forced=true What kills me is that this coin dealer was willing to pay 75k for a coin without even taking it out of the damn case?!

SilverCat | 10-17-2009 02:38 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1977414) I had to try it a couple of times. http://www.contracostatimes.com/spor...=1&forced=true What kills me is that this coin dealer was willing to pay 75k for a coin without even taking it out of the damn case?!
I don't have any graded coins, but I don't think you're supposed to open a slab like that. My understanding is that the professional grading adds value to the coin. Opening it would reduce its value.

TheSkeptic | 10-17-2009 03:01 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Of course, but what is the grading fee (especially for a member like a coin dealer), $15? Even if the fee was $100, not examining a $75,000 coin to save $100 is absolutely stupid.

Twisted Avatar | 10-17-2009 03:28 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1977580) Of course, but what is the grading fee (especially for a member like a coin dealer), $15? Even if the fee was $100, not examining a $75,000 coin to save $100 is absolutely stupid.
A fool and their money will eventually part ways

Jekyll7 | 10-17-2009 08:43 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted $75k (or more) coins are bought and sold without being "cracked out" of their holders all the time. Cutting a coin in half and matching rare mint marks with rare dates is a new one on me though. NGC's new holders just found their new purpose.

twenty4karat | 10-18-2009 04:40 AM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1977414) I had to try it a couple of times. http://www.contracostatimes.com/spor...=1&forced=true What kills me is that this coin dealer was willing to pay 75k for a coin without even taking it out of the damn case?!
Re-read the article friend. It's talking about multiple coins... ...in authentic PCGS holders. You don't crack open sealed graded coins (especially PCGS). That would defeat the whole purpose of grading the coins in the first place. The newer ANACS and NGC spoked holders Jekyll7, won't always help. I had a two tailed Washington quarter, it actually looked like it was minted that way. It wasn't until I looked at it through a micro scope that I could tell how it was made. One quarter was milled out on a high quality lathe right out to just the inside of the rimmed edge like a precision cut cup. The other quarter was milled like a precision cut plug and then epoxied together. You know how many coin tosses I won until I lost that coin? (about 19 out of 20 people would always call heads). Now, I told you that story (true story) so that you could see that a coin doesn't need to even be sealed to trick some one. Back to the bigger picture, I've known Larry and have done business with him for almost 40 years. He knows his s***t. It was because he knows his s***t that there was something about one of the coins that didn't jive. Your Location: 'nuff said. :smile: P.S. The bad guy got caught because Larry does know his shit! P.P.S. The quarter fell off of the boat with everything else.

TheSkeptic | 10-18-2009 09:44 AM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted So with all the fake PCGS slabs floating around, he still didn't think it wise to crack it open and examine it, since he could then have it reslabbed for like 0.001% of the purchase price of the coin?

CoinHunter53562 | 10-18-2009 09:55 AM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1977580) Of course, but what is the grading fee (especially for a member like a coin dealer), $15? Even if the fee was $100, not examining a $75,000 coin to save $100 is absolutely stupid.
No doubt. With the number of fakes out there, including those in slabs, you have to be extra careful. There is a somewhat new service called CAC I believe, that certifies certified coins. :confused_ma: It's no secret among the coin collecting/dealing world that China (among others) is pumping out fakes by the boatload and that they are infiltrating the hobby. Sometimes it's just better to focus on bullion, but even with those you have to be extra careful about fakes. Our shop policy for now is to not buy 100 ounce silver bars for example.

CoinHunter53562 | 10-18-2009 09:57 AM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Quote:
Originally Posted by Jekyll7 (Post 1977922) $75k (or more) coins are bought and sold without being "cracked out" of their holders all the time. Cutting a coin in half and matching rare mint marks with rare dates is a new one on me though. NGC's new holders just found their new purpose.
Good point. Those new edge holders may be kinda ugly, but they serve a nice purpose.

Ghost Recon | 10-18-2009 09:57 AM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted I was at a coin store a few years back looking for silver. They bring out these 10oz bars. And they were beautiful. Very thin with the dollar bill imprint on them. But nowhere could I find .999 fine silver. I think it said 1 troy oz though. I said to her that I couldn't find .999 anywhere on it. She had nothing to say. I got the feeling they were plated and walked out. What do you guys think? edit....sorry about the thread drift.

Chris_Is_Here | 10-18-2009 10:17 AM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted ^ I think you were wise to walk out..... EDIT...you guys should think about investing in a digital gram scale.....mine has already payed for itself (I've weeded out a few 1 oz fake silver rounds that didn't weigh in at ~31.1 grams)....also, keep in mind that a valid 1 oz silver coin can weigh anywhere from 31.1 to 31.4 grams, +/-0.2 grams is not unusual.....some of the fakes I have seen weighed in light, typically around 26 grams.

ruprick | 10-18-2009 10:19 AM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Just buy bullion - WTF would anyone mess around with numis? Silly premiums, and the greater fool market theory. Sorry to offend - just how I see it.

alliecatkatie | 10-18-2009 10:23 AM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted I was wondering something the other day.. and this might be a good thread to ask on.. if a person is buying PM's in thought that one day they have to use them to barter with (purchase goods with) as the dollar collapsed; how will the person(cashier or other) know that the PM is not a fake?? after all there appears to be some pretty good fake PM's out there.. In the crisis like Argentina.. where banks are not there and you are surviving on your PM's .. how will one know a fake from the real deal?? just curious.. or should this be a seperate post ?

ruprick | 10-18-2009 10:27 AM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted US 90% coin is a good way to go....why counterfit a Mercury dime? 1 oz govt silver coins (SAE, Maples, etc).....Gold carries a much larger risk in my opinion. Would going to feel about accepting even a 1 oz krug, or a GAE?

OutlawJoseyWalesJr | 10-18-2009 10:27 AM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Is_Here (Post 1978508) ^ I think you were wise to walk out..... EDIT...you guys should think about investing in a digital gram scale.....mine has already payed for itself (I've weeded out a few 1 oz fake silver rounds that didn't weigh in at ~31.1 grams)....also, keep in mind that a valid 1 oz silver coin can weigh anywhere from 31.1 to 31.4 grams, +/-0.2 grams is not unusual.....some of the fakes I have seen weighed in light, typically around 26 grams.
I also have a few .999 1-oz silver bars/rounds that weigh 30.3-30.9 grams in weight as well. That seems to be an occurance with much older silver bars and rounds. I have some that weighed in the 30.3 to 30.9 gram range but they passed the silver ring test as well as the magnet test. Good advice is to weigh all gold and silver with a digital gram scale. EDIT: 1-oz .999 silver bars that weigh in the 30.3 - 30.9 gram range are usually the '70's SABs but is still within the weight varience for the '70's SABs based on what I read from another coin collecter based forum.

o b juan | 10-18-2009 10:39 AM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted CHINA HAS SHipped fakes to the U S for over 50 years back in the 60's and 70's the 50 d nickle ... every one had an uncirc.

VPW | 10-18-2009 10:57 AM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted [QUOTE=OutlawJoseyWalesJr;1978524]. Good advice is to weigh all gold and silver with a digital gram scale.QUOTE] I am guessing that a digital postal scale that also reads in grams will not be accurate enough? I am getting 30gr on each of 4 ASEs bought randomly.

OutlawJoseyWalesJr | 10-18-2009 11:10 AM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted [quote=VPW;1978549] Quote:
Originally Posted by OutlawJoseyWalesJr (Post 1978524) . Good advice is to weigh all gold and silver with a digital gram scale/QUOTE] I am guessing that a digital postal scale that also reads in grams will not be accurate enough? I am getting 30gr on each of 4 ASEs bought randomly.
VPW, That might be possible that your scale might be off because SAE's will usually weigh in the 31.1-31.3 gram range. I have not seen any SAE's weigh less than 31.1 grams. You might want to double check your scale. I have never seen any 1-oz silver gov't minted coins weigh less than 31.1. Engelhards usually weigh 31.1-31.4 grams. JM bars will weigh about the same as Engelhards. I have not seen any "modern" minted silver art bars weigh less than 30.9 grams and they will usually weigh 31.1-31.3 grams. Of the very few bars that weigh less than 31.1 grams seem to be '70's SABs by certain mints. I think that has to do with the less than perfect minting process of some of those '70's SABs but I could be wrong about that. Even then, they are within the weight variance for '70's SABs (7% weight variance according to another poster on another coin collector forum) and pass the silver ring and magnet test.

SWRichmond | 10-18-2009 11:40 AM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1977580) Of course, but what is the grading fee (especially for a member like a coin dealer), $15? Even if the fee was $100, not examining a $75,000 coin to save $100 is absolutely stupid.
I would never buy anything like that, whose value is allegedly destroyed by actually exposing it to a physical examination. People are so gullible. "If you actually look at it critically you'll diminish its value. Its value is enhanced by being sealed in plastic and protected against being examined." Laughable. Quote:
...in authentic PCGS holders.
Cheaper to fake the slab than the coin.

twenty4karat | 10-18-2009 02:25 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1978482) So with all the fake PCGS slabs floating around, he still didn't think it wise to crack it open and examine it, since he could then have it reslabbed for like 0.001% of the purchase price of the coin?
You are repeating yourself, you're not listening. Ignorance is also bliss. :smile:

TheSkeptic | 10-18-2009 05:24 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Is_Here (Post 1978508) ^ I think you were wise to walk out..... EDIT...you guys should think about investing in a digital gram scale.....mine has already payed for itself (I've weeded out a few 1 oz fake silver rounds that didn't weigh in at ~31.1 grams)....also, keep in mind that a valid 1 oz silver coin can weigh anywhere from 31.1 to 31.4 grams, +/-0.2 grams is not unusual.....some of the fakes I have seen weighed in light, typically around 26 grams.
I was going through some of my silver rounds the other day and found two fakes just like that. I had a tube of 20 rounds which was weighing in at about 19ozt. So I checked and found 2 rounds that were way underweight. Upon closer examination, one was clad, the other one showed some copperish looking metal when I filed into it. Neither one was marked though. Not sure where I got them, we buy a lot of that stuff through our employees, and someone probably let it through without looking for a .999 stamp.

TheSkeptic | 10-18-2009 05:28 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Quote:
Originally Posted by SWRichmond (Post 1978603) I would never buy anything like that, whose value is allegedly destroyed by actually exposing it to a physical examination. People are so gullible. "If you actually look at it critically you'll diminish its value. Its value is enhanced by being sealed in plastic and protected against being examined." Laughable.
Exactly. I don't care if the damn value is $5,000, why not take it out of the slab? You can then have it re-slabbed for $15 or whatever. Charge an extra $15 when you resell it, if it makes you feel better. Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty4karat (Post 1978798) You are repeating yourself, you're not listening.
Apparently I confused "single transaction" with single coin. But how many coins did this guy bring in? The average value of each coin must have been in the thousands. When you are talking about coins that high dollar (especially when you are dealing with a total of $75,000 in a single transaction), and you don't physically examine at least some of them out of the case, that is just careless.

Jefferson | 10-18-2009 08:35 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Here's how it works: Take a valuable coin, cut it along the edge so that it's split front and back, then attach one of the pieces to another cut from a different coin. The idea is to mix mint and year marks to create coins that appear more valuable. This seems too difficult to me. Why not simply mill away the back side of the coins not wanted and then put the 2 good halves together. I thought the year and date for coins were on the same side. I am not into numismatics. But I will buy a new coin from US Mint and hold it for some numi appreciation. Just adds to the profits. Seems smart way to go. It should also be much easier to fake a silver coin over a gold coin. With 100 ounce silver bar would it work to do a specific gravity test. Although I can guess that it is much easier to duplicate the sp gravity of silver then it is of gold. But I could be wrong on this guess. I am guessing that because Silver is lower sp gravity then gold and maybe there are other metals to match up the silver value. Gold is tricky because it is so dense.

Jefferson | 10-18-2009 08:47 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Quote:
Originally Posted by alliecatkatie (Post 1978516) I was wondering something the other day.. and this might be a good thread to ask on.. if a person is buying PM's in thought that one day they have to use them to barter with (purchase goods with) as the dollar collapsed; how will the person(cashier or other) know that the PM is not a fake?? after all there appears to be some pretty good fake PM's out there.. In the crisis like Argentina.. where banks are not there and you are surviving on your PM's .. how will one know a fake from the real deal?? just curious.. or should this be a seperate post ?
The US made a Trade Dollar that was silver. It was used outside the US to trade or purchase items for import. The Chinese and or the Chinese banks would punch the back of the coin and poke a hole in it to see that it was silver deep inside the coin. they did not punch the hole entirely through the coin just a good deep punch. If you look up pictures of old Trade Dollars you will see some pictures of the punch mark on the back side of the coins. http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3181/...d20060a9ff.jpg punch mark on a british coin.

madfranks | 10-18-2009 09:01 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefferson (Post 1979244) I thought the year and date for coins were on the same side. I am not into numismatics. But I will buy a new coin from US Mint and hold it for some numi appreciation. Just adds to the profits. Seems smart way to go.
On a Morgan silver dollar (which was the $75,000 coin in the article), the year is on the obverse (front), and the mint mark on the reverse. I've never heard of this type of fake before, but I tend to agree with TheSkeptic on this one; if I was in the market for a $75,000 coin, I would de-slab it so I could examine the rim - many people don't realize that rim damage is not only very prolific on those old coins (many were made into jewelry), it also dramatically takes away the value of the coin. On a purchase of that size, I wouldn't trust the word of PCGS, I would need to see it for myself, so I'd crack the slab and then re-certify it.

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- - Coin counterfeiter gets busted (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=416437)

madfranks | 10-18-2009 09:06 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty4karat (Post 1978346) Re-read the article friend. It's talking about multiple coins... ...in authentic PCGS holders. You don't crack open sealed graded coins (especially PCGS)...
Quoting the article: Quote:
"They were in capsules that appeared to be genuine and from the P.C.G.S, the top grading service in the country,"
So they were not authentic PCGS holders, they only appeared to be. My bet is they were Chinese made.

SomeSilver | 10-18-2009 09:08 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Geez, for $75K the guy could have gotten 75 ounces of Gold or about 3,700 SAEs! "Rare" coins are not for me, Gold and Silver are themselves rare enough and much easier to verify their veracity.

TheSkeptic | 10-18-2009 10:27 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted I have some nice ocean front land in Idaho I'd like to sell that dealer.

supn9 | 10-18-2009 11:06 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty4karat (Post 1978346) Re-read the article friend. It's talking about multiple coins... ...in authentic PCGS holders. You don't crack open sealed graded coins (especially PCGS). That would defeat the whole purpose of grading the coins in the first place. The newer ANACS and NGC spoked holders Jekyll7, won't always help. I had a two tailed Washington quarter, it actually looked like it was minted that way. It wasn't until I looked at it through a micro scope that I could tell how it was made. One quarter was milled out on a high quality lathe right out to just the inside of the rimmed edge like a precision cut cup. The other quarter was milled like a precision cut plug and then epoxied together. You know how many coin tosses I won until I lost that coin? (about 19 out of 20 people would always call heads). Now, I told you that story (true story) so that you could see that a coin doesn't need to even be sealed to trick some one. Back to the bigger picture, I've known Larry and have done business with him for almost 40 years. He knows his s***t. It was because he knows his s***t that there was something about one of the coins that didn't jive. Your Location: 'nuff said. :smile: P.S. The bad guy got caught because Larry does know his shit! P.P.S. The quarter fell off of the boat with everything else.
Thats cool and all. BUt how do you tell if your PCGS, NGC or ICG purchase is fake or not. Is there a standard weight to the pcgs, ngc and icg coin holders? I do know you can verify by serial number. But some times its not available. Also coin sizes vary and as a result the diameter can take away some weight there. Is anyone aware of standard weight for the three holders. This way its possible to subtract.

FunnyMoney | 10-18-2009 11:27 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Quote:
Originally Posted by alliecatkatie (Post 1978516) I was wondering something the other day.. and this might be a good thread to ask on.. if a person is buying PM's in thought that one day they have to use them to barter with (purchase goods with) as the dollar collapsed; how will the person(cashier or other) know that the PM is not a fake?? after all there appears to be some pretty good fake PM's out there.. In the crisis like Argentina.. where banks are not there and you are surviving on your PM's .. how will one know a fake from the real deal?? just curious.. or should this be a seperate post ?
There's really a lot of factors involved and only time will tell, but it's likely that if the dollar completely collapses then all fiat money may take a hit. And this would likely be the only way a return to the mediums of silver and to a lesser extent, gold will take place. Else, the gov't will just replace the money with a new fiat. If indeed there is a return to honest money then you probably won't have a problem with fakes. The reason being that silver and gold will become so valuable that the money in circulation will be very small coins and/or contain very little of the metal. A one ounce silver coin would probably buy weeks, possibly months worth of groceries, for example. In this example, the bullion that is large enough to make it worth it for criminals to try and fake, will come under great scrutiny when used in a transaction. Those holding generics, very high value coins or bullion, or any coin which raises any doubt will likely require the holder to first go wait in line at the office for a specialist to examine and even test the money prior to being able to buy something with it. When you're talking real money and crisis situations, most people in business become very very careful.

twenty4karat | 10-19-2009 04:20 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted You'll never understand until you've done your home work. That includes not just the populations of numismatics but the history behind individual coins (of which changes all the time). I've been studying this for for many decades and I still learn something new everyday. Larry has about 10 years on me. Until you all have walked in his shoes, stick to your bullion and art bars (not that I have anything against bullion and art bars there were several thousands of those on the boat too!). It just doesn't take as much discipline to collect and trade those. :smile:

TheSkeptic | 10-19-2009 04:44 PM
Re: Coin counterfeiter gets busted Certainly experience is good. But what was his motivation for not physically inspecting the coins? He wanted to save the $20 or whatever it would've cost to have it reslabbed?

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