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- - Fake gold sovereigns... (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=133029)

TaxHaven | 05-03-2007 03:48 AM
Fake gold sovereigns... I've bought several sovereigns off ebay and have had no troubles with dishonest sellers...until recently. I bought a "1927sa sovereign" and, two MONTHS later, finally received a strange looking brassy-gold coloured coin with many dubious features. But one GUARANTEES it is a fake: the letters "J21" appear on the reverse, to the left of Pistrucci's St. George & The Dragon. Anyone have another one? This particular cheat photo's only the obverse of the coin and now I know why! Ebay says he has sold "hundreds" of (apparently) the same coin...:favorites21:

RossL | 05-03-2007 05:12 AM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... we need to see pictures.

negative1 | 05-04-2007 01:45 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Yup pics would be great. If you need to compare it with a real one I have 2 1927s from South Africa and I could get a pic in a couple of days if needed. -1

TaxHaven | 05-05-2007 08:45 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Sorry, can't because don't have right kind of camera - can't take close-ups. What do you use? But, anyway, what kind of sovereign is this brassy colour and has "J21" on the reverse???

BeefJerky | 05-05-2007 09:01 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Link to one of sellers auctions for the sovereigns?

Au_Ag | 05-05-2007 11:16 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... What is the weight? `

grapejelly | 05-06-2007 12:05 AM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... should be 7.99g

RossL | 05-06-2007 05:36 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxHaven (Post 597704) Sorry, can't because don't have right kind of camera - can't take close-ups. What do you use? But, anyway, what kind of sovereign is this brassy colour and has "J21" on the reverse???
You can use a scanner.

TomD | 05-06-2007 07:51 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... 1 Attachment(s) Here is the only picture of a sovereign that I have, the original is back in the safe deposit box and beyond my reach right now. Tell you the truth, I don't know enough about sovereigns to know where this was minted, I bought this and 2 others in a similar state and from a similar time frame from a VERY reputable dealer a couple of months ago. There is nothing like a J21 on the coin though there is a very small R. P. (I think) just to the right of the date.

TaxHaven | 05-06-2007 08:30 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Looks OK to me. All I can say to everyone is that I'm VERY sure mine is a fake - fakes don't see to be that uncommon! But this guy, toptottyshoes, on ebay has sold hundreds of the same coin to (probably) unsuspecting buyers on ebay (according to ebay's LIVE CHAT representative). A couple of buyers besides myself have complained but their feedback is no longer accessible. Wish I had a scanner and could let you see. Watch for: a)brassy, too shiny gold colour...the color of a brass candlestick. Real sovereigns are something like 7.5% copper and the colour reflects this composition b)dimensions of design, especially on reverse, where the St. George is often too close or too far from edge c)drop it once and listen to the "ring" while comparing the sound to a genuine one. They are very consistent in sound. d)Obviously shouldn't have any wording on the reverse other than the date. "B.P." and maybe a mint mark e)Check out http://www.goldsovereigns.co.uk/fakes.html for more information. Does anyone know other sites?

Au_Ag | 05-06-2007 08:42 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Quote:
Originally Posted by grapejelly (Post 597876) should be 7.99g
Yep - I looked at several of mine - the initials down to the right of the date seem to be different on some of them. Couldn't find my loupe, so I can't get a good look at them, but with the naked eye no markings or anything like J21 are to the left of St George and the dragon. FWIW. I've got one that is off shade - probably came into contact with something that reacted to the alloy. It weighs and measures fine, so I'm not concerned - it came from a major dealer. "with many dubious features" ??? I dunno - but to be sure, you need to check the weight. It should be 7.99 - which will read 8.0 grams on my cheapie scale, without bothering to calibrate - not sure of official variance/tolerance - but I would think that on a cheapie scale it should read 7.9 or 8.0 or there may well be a problem. I check everything immediately - use a scale that goes out to .xx5 grams - or .1 grains. There is more variation than in modern coins but I don't remember anything varying at the .x gram level - they will vary somewhat at the .x grain level

negative1 | 05-07-2007 01:30 AM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Found it.... Click Is that a pic of the coin you got form him? -1

RossL | 05-07-2007 05:24 AM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... 1 Attachment(s) Tom, yours was minted in Melbourne. The mint mark is on an angle right above the date.

TomD | 05-07-2007 07:55 AM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Quote:
Originally Posted by RossL (Post 598693) Tom, yours was minted in Melbourne. The mint mark is on an angle right above the date.
Everywhere I go, Australian coins

grapejelly | 05-07-2007 09:25 AM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... the weight on mine is in an extremely narrow range...unlike other coins. I think the weight should be a giveaway for just about any fake...

AuNuggets | 05-07-2007 09:29 AM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... 1 Attachment(s) Unfortunately guys, Sovereigns are one of the most counterfeited gold coins in history. Good news though, it probably doesn't matter, because most of the fakes were produced back in the time that these brought significant premiums on the marketplace......so most of even the fakes contain the correct weight and fineness of gold. The counterfeiters profited from the premium, not the gold content. The best way to help with fakes is a little tool called the Fisch Instrument, a small plastic device that checks each coin for correct thickness, diameter, shape, and weight. Takes about 10 seconds to check any coin for the proper specifications. Here's a photo of one for the Krugerrand, but they were made for most popular bullion coins and are still available from Ken Rutherford......Google search "Fisch Instruments". This little gem has a pass-through slot that checks the thickness of the coin first, and then a round tray that checks it for proper shape and diameter and also positions the coin on a fulcrum scale that checks the correct weight by tipping the instrument toward the side of the coin if it is within weigh specifications for that particular coin. Very fast and very easy to determine "GOLD CONTENT".........with a BIG IF. It doesnt tell you if you have a genuine coin, only if it is within size, shape, and weight specs. Like I mentioned above, you can still have one of the "premium fakes", but since these sell at or close to spot for their gold content anyway, it probably doesn't matter too much. I have seen ALOT of obviously fake King George V Sovereigns over the years. These are usually easy to tell after handling alot of this design because of differences in the George V bust. They "just don't look right". But even so, they easily pass through dealer hands because they contain the right amount of gold.

AuNuggets | 05-07-2007 09:40 AM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... 1 Attachment(s) Here is a very good example of what I was talking about with the George V Sovereigns. On the left is a genuine Soverein. On the right is what we use to call a "fat head". You can see the difference in the overall look of the coin, but not necessarily in the small details. You have to "take it in" as the whole picture rather than trying to see certain details in the striking or casting.

Au_Ag | 05-07-2007 10:54 AM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets (Post 598836) Here is a very good example of what I was talking about with the George V Sovereigns.
Excellent post! Thanks

CJul | 05-07-2007 02:37 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... I must admit I have a few sovereigns, and the colour varies considerably .... I'm not sure that is a good indication. There are a lot of different mint marks as well. I'm not an expert, but check the weight first off. I think there were actually some fakes made of platinum!! They are actually now worth more than the genuine ones ....:haha:

Bullionaire | 05-07-2007 03:48 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... If I remember correctly, back in the eighties, I saw Sovereigns and half sovereigns, marked J-21 from Saudi Arabia...they are Jewelry Grade 21kt replicas....they were good gold. Marked J-21 as not to fool anyone, they tested good 21Kt. You probably got gold, maybe the seller was not that knowledgeable...hope that helps...

CJul | 05-07-2007 04:04 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire (Post 599232) If I remember correctly, back in the eighties, I saw Sovereigns and half sovereigns, marked J-21 from Saudi Arabia...they are Jewelry Grade 21kt replicas....they were good gold. Marked J-21 as not to fool anyone, they tested good 21Kt. You probably got gold, maybe the seller was not that knowledgeable...hope that helps...
That is very interesting, thanks for the info.

TomD | 05-07-2007 04:06 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Taxhaven, If the dimensions and weight are correct, you have gold and aren't out that much. Wouldn't it be a heart breaker to get a few platinum fakes. Below the column headers didn't paste with the rest of the info. They are: gold weight/coin weight oz/coin weight grams/diameter/thickness/purity <table bordercolordark="#4F4F46" style="border-width: 2px; border-collapse: collapse;" class="AustSpecsGreenBrown" border="2" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="90%"><tbody><tr><td align="center" height="25"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" height="25"> Great Britain </td> <td align="left" height="25"> I Sovereign </td> <td align="right" height="25"> </td> <td align="right" height="25"> 0.2354 </td> <td align="center" height="25"> 0.2568 </td> <td align="right" height="25"> 7.9873 </td> <td align="right" height="25"> 22.05. </td> <td align="center" height="25"> 1.52 </td> <td align="center" height="25"> 916 </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" height="23"> Great Britain </td> <td align="left" height="23"> 1/2 Sovereign </td> <td align="right" height="23"> </td> <td align="right" height="23"> 0.1177 </td> <td align="center" height="23"> 0.1284 </td> <td align="right" height="23"> 3.9936 </td> <td align="right" height="23"> 19.22 </td> <td align="center" height="23"> 0.99 </td> <td align="center" height="23"> 916 </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" height="25"> Great Britain </td> <td align="left" height="25"> I /10 oz.Britannia </td> <td align="right" height="25">Lb 10</td> <td align="right" height="25"> 0.1000 </td> <td align="center" height="25"> 0.1091 </td> <td align="right" height="25"> 3.3933 </td> <td align="right" height="25"> 16.50. </td> <td align="center" height="25"> 1. 17 </td> <td align="center" height="25"> 916 </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="AustSpecsTableHeader" align="center" height="36"> </td></tr></tbody></table>

AuNuggets | 05-07-2007 05:11 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... The platinums are not always easy to tell, unless some of the gold plating has worn through. Platinum was usually alloyed with copper or other metals to bring it "down" to the same specific gravity as 22K gold so that the final weight of the coin would be correct. These were almost always die struck fakes to as opposed to castings since platinum is much harder to cast than gold alloys due to the extreme temperatures needed and the fact that the alloy metals, especially so copper, would tend to oxidize and burn off from such heat. Seems they would fix one problem only to create another in the counterfeiting process........ I'd still like to have some of the platinum fakes for the price of gold though ! :bear_cool:

TaxHaven | 05-08-2007 04:16 AM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Thanks everyone for your tips! I WILL let you see it as soon as I get a scanner. And that's what I need your help with. How do you scan coins? Do all scanners work on coins? They all seem to include printers with them and are HUGE, take up a lot of space! I use an HP laptop computer so need something SMALL-ish and good for coins & stamps; don't really need a printer since the cost of cartridges is so high. Any suggestions? What do you use?

RossL | 05-08-2007 05:16 AM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... I use an Epson Perfection Photo scanner. My model is 2 years old, but is comparable to this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16838110017

TaxHaven | 05-09-2007 03:21 AM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Hi RossL, Does your Epson scanner do coins well? Would it work on stamps too? Does it require any other hardware - they're trying to tell me I need to buy a "driver". Moreover, what are the dimensions of it? Many Thanks, TaxHaven

TomD | 05-09-2007 08:11 AM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Since Ross is temporarily elsewhere, I can say that Ross' scanner does quite well for coins, I was amazed that a scanner could do that well. Yes, it would work as well for stamps. The scanner Ross has is not part of a multifunction machine, it is a scanner only and is about 25 cm wide, 40 cm long and 10 cm high (10x16x4 in inches). A driver isn't a piece of hardware, it is a small program, provided by the manufacturer, that provides the interface between your computer and scanner. You can download them for free off the net, from the manufacturers website. There are various drivers for various languages and operating systems.

TaxHaven | 05-09-2007 09:08 AM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Thanks, Tom...will see about getting one asap!

Au_Ag | 05-09-2007 01:09 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Suggest you put a scale on your list also - probably a higher priority than the scanner in terms of verifying fakes. With a scale and calipers you gain a lot of knowledge about a coin.

RossL | 05-09-2007 02:33 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Yes, what Tom said is correct. The scanner is a USB device. Your laptop has USB, correct? A "twain" driver should be on a CD and come with the scanner. If it doesn't, then download it from Epson's website.

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- Gold - Silver - Coins - Numismatics (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=51)
- - Fake gold sovereigns... (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=133029)

TaxHaven | 05-10-2007 03:24 AM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Any suggestions about scales? I'd prefer one that is "manual", i.e. uses weights not batteries or electricity. But if I can find an Epson dealer here in Taiwan you'll see IMMEDIATELY it is a fake by the diffeences in lettering of the "1927".

TomD | 05-10-2007 08:53 AM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxHaven (Post 602005) Any suggestions about scales? I'd prefer one that is "manual", i.e. uses weights not batteries or electricity. But if I can find an Epson dealer here in Taiwan you'll see IMMEDIATELY it is a fake by the diffeences in lettering of the "1927".
You could use a camera in macro mode.

CJul | 05-11-2007 11:59 AM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxHaven (Post 597704) Sorry, can't because don't have right kind of camera - can't take close-ups. What do you use? But, anyway, what kind of sovereign is this brassy colour and has "J21" on the reverse???
Not speaking from personal experience, but, I just got an email from a dealer/friend. We were discussing a variety of subjects, and wondered if this was at all relevant: " took delivery of more Sovereigns, but there are a couple in there which are polished ...XX who supplies me says that the effect is OK and well regarded ... but I think it makes them look like brass and loses detail."

AuNuggets | 05-11-2007 12:18 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Quote:
Originally Posted by CJul (Post 603483) ...XX who supplies me says that the effect (polished coins) is OK and well regarded ...."
WELL REGARDED ? LOL ..... To the seller maybe. But seldom to the buyer. 98 percent of my "polished" gold coins go to the refiner, because nobody wants them.......and especially not the dealers that sold them to me in the first place. Go figure...... They get discounted several percent so they can be pitched into a refining lot with other scrap. Kind of like the old sign hanging on the Second-Hand shop. "We buy JUNK - We sell FINE ANTIQUES" Just depends on which end of the stick you are on, and who is "sticking" whom.

CJul | 05-11-2007 01:38 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... :laugh_m: What do they mean by 'polished'? The same as cleaned or is that somehow different? I just wondered if that was the brassy effect TH was worried about.

CJul | 05-11-2007 03:54 PM
Re: Fake gold sovereigns... Apparently these coins were cleaned with silvo wadding, and ended up looking very 'brassy' and a bit peculiar. (who is the world is this stupid ......!!!!) but TH may have a fake, but he may on the other hand have a coin that has been messed around with, and isn't the best in the world, but at least is gold ...

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