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- - True Value #2 (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=19056)

rerichards | 03-08-2005 10:19 PM
True Value #2 Let's try this again. What are the advantages of bullion over numismatics, and numismatics over bullion when there is a market crash (removing confiscation as a possibility)?<!-- / message -->

Infidel | 03-08-2005 11:10 PM
Re: True Value #2 are you incapable of finding your previous post? it is here http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=19048 The advantage of bullion over numismatics in a crash is that bulion holds more intristic value than numismatics. a gold coin is a gold coin is a gold coin. If things are hard to come by than you would have much easier time trying to convince someone that the coin you hold in your hand is a piece of gold than trying to tell someone that the coin you hold in your hand is not only made out of gold but also is seen as a rare coin among some people with excess funds (what funds? FRNs? Euros? Rubbles? Tugrecks? Wheelbarrows or reichmarcks?) and a penchant for collecting Frivolous things are less likely to be given value in the event of a market crash

Sequoia | 03-08-2005 11:22 PM
Re: True Value #2 There are no advantages of numismatics over bullion in a crash.

rerichards | 03-09-2005 12:04 AM
Re: True Value #2 Thank you. That is all I wanted, an answer to the question that I posted in the first place (see first posting titled "True Value"). It was not a matter of being incapable of finding my first post, as I was fully aware of it and the replies made. The question I posted in the first posting "True Value" was "what advantage would a numismatic have over bullion in a crash?" I am sorry it took two nearly similar postings, but those responding were apparently incapable of addressing the question I posted the first time around. Thanks again. Your response was dead on.

The Argent Dragon | 03-10-2005 12:37 PM
Re: True Value #2 ......Although : Your Tangible Asset Portfolio -Craig R. Smith, SATC Mar. 7, 2005 http://www.swissamerica.com/news/art...0503071208.jpg So far in the 21st century, gold and silver coins have outperformed almost every other asset class, such as stocks, bonds, CDs and mutual funds. September 11, 2001 changed the economic landscape dramatically yet many financial "experts" have yet not changed their recommendations to include tangible assets, like gold and silver coins. Building a financial portfolio that is able to withstand the storms of life is not easy. Every financial advisor has a little different perspective on which assets offer the best return and safety but wise counselors now recommend gold and silver as portfolio hedges. Swiss America would like to help you make sure that your 'investment pyramid' is secured with a solid foundation but, first we need some honest answers to the following three important questions ... 1. HOW LONG DO YOU PLAN TO HOLD YOUR INVESTMENT? 2. WHAT LEVEL OF RETURN DO YOU HOPE TO ACHIEVE? 3. WHAT DEGREE OF RISK ARE YOU PREPARED TO ACCEPT? Based on your personal choices, you should adjust your portfolio to fit your goals. Swiss America offers a two-way liquid market in all U.S. gold and silver coins and bullion-related products. ............... P.S. Build a solid portfolio from the bottom up ... Low Risk category could include cash, T-bills, CD's, money market funds, annuities, etc. SATC recommends gold and silver bullion coins in this category. Limited Risk category could include residence, retirement plans, Treasury bonds, etc. SATC recommends investment-grade U.S. gold and silver coins in this category. Moderate Risk category could include blue chip stocks, preferred stocks, mutual funds, stock/index options, leveraged real estate, equity partnerships, etc. High Risk category could include tech/high growth stocks, aggressive growth mutual funds, emerging markets, high-yield (junk) bonds, art, commodity future contracts, venture capital, gemstones, etc. -Source : Swiss America (website)

AuNuggets | 03-10-2005 01:56 PM
Re: True Value #2 Another over-priced, numismatic-hawking, quasi-boiler room operation. The REAL problem with numismatics is in determining an accurate price level before buying or selling..... where accurate price levels never exist beyond the whim of the dealer involved.

The Argent Dragon | 03-10-2005 03:16 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets ...... The REAL problem with numismatics is in determining an accurate price level before buying or selling..... where accurate price levels never exist beyond the whim of the dealer involved.
You need to pick up a "Greysheet" :D My 1853 large cent purchased in '03 for $15 is now worth $29. My 1893-CC Morgan purchased in '04 for $114 is now worth $215. My 1884-CC Morgan purchased in '04 for $125 is now worth $215. Even if a dealer offers me $25, $185, and $185 for each, I've still made a profit better than "GOLD" ! :applause_

AuNuggets | 03-10-2005 03:22 PM
Re: True Value #2 Don't count your chickens before they hatch. :afraid: Take those coins to a few dealers, and get some real-world offers. After they are through under-grading and "appraising" them for you, maybe reality will set in. :stickyman

Mr. Shiny | 03-10-2005 03:37 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
You need to pick up a "Greysheet"
there are all sorts of "sheets", in all sorts of fields, every last one of them is designed to suck you in, take the Rappaport Report for diamonds, this is a supposedly "secret" price structure "sheet", problem is just about everybody buying a diamond knows about it, that's because jewelers let their customers in on the "secret", some secret! "see this, it's the Rappaport Report, shhhh, this is between you and me, i want you to see i'm not out to scam you, see this sheet says right here a 1carat vvs1/g is worth $xxxxx, i'm only making a small profit." "oh, o.k., i see, no, no, no, i trust you" "well that's good to know, i just want to be a fair dealer" (said with fingers crossed)

The Argent Dragon | 03-10-2005 03:42 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets Don't count your chickens before they hatch. :afraid: Take those coins to a few dealers, and get some real-world offers. After they are through under-grading and "appraising" them for you, maybe reality will set in. :stickyman
HAH ! ....do you take me for an amateur ??? ...I've been collecting coins since 1987 and have dealt with just about every type of dealer you can think of. I've heard the 'insults' the "your coins don't grade that high" over and over and over again. :bowdown: BUT just to amuse a fellow PDB, I'm going to a show Saturday in which I will take the same coins to get offers. I'll then follow-up with a report on Monday. Mark my words....."better than gold" :banana:

The Argent Dragon | 03-10-2005 03:46 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny there are all sorts of "sheets", in all sorts of fields, every last one of them is designed to suck you in, take the Rappaport Report for diamonds, this is a supposedly "secret" price structure "sheet", problem is just about everybody buying a diamond knows about it, that's because jewelers let their customers in on the "secret", some secret! "see this, it's the Rappaport Report, shhhh, this is between you and me, i want you to see i'm not out to scam you, see this sheet says right here a 1carat vvs1/g is worth $xxxxx, i'm only making a small profit." "oh, o.k., i see, no, no, no, i trust you" "well that's good to know, i just want to be a fair dealer" (said with fingers crossed)
A true b.s. statement from a PDB ! :applause_ :rofl: The greysheet is a dealer guide with "ask" and "bid" columns which attempt to standardize the market when coupled with professionally graded coins like PCGS and NGC. However, let me point out that the Greysheet has been 2-3 weeks behind on pricing because of the time to compose and print. It's been behind for 2-yrs. now and I'll bet you can't find a 'Carson City' dollar in any grade at 10% over greysheet. Likewise, any knowledgeable coin dealer will happily pay "greysheet" prices for your Carsons.....

The Argent Dragon | 03-10-2005 03:48 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets Don't count your chickens before they hatch. :afraid:
Oh.......and BTW the last Gunshow I attended, I was "doubling" my money on every Carson City "CC" dollar I bought or traded for. :applause_ Take that one to the bank !!!

AuNuggets | 03-10-2005 04:31 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by The Argent Dragon Oh.......and BTW the last Gunshow I attended, I was "doubling" my money on every Carson City "CC" dollar I bought or traded for. :applause_ Take that one to the bank !!!
Congratulations on avoiding last position in the greater-fool chain. You'll have to excuse me for not "taking that one to the bank" because I've been on both sides of the table. Buying something at "half price" is only relative if you can sell it at "full price". More often than not, that just isn't the case, bragging and claims not withstanding.

The Argent Dragon | 03-10-2005 06:15 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets Congratulations on avoiding last position in the greater-fool chain. You'll have to excuse me for not "taking that one to the bank" because I've been on both sides of the table. Buying something at "half price" is only relative if you can sell it at "full price". More often than not, that just isn't the case, bragging and claims not withstanding.
You're right about it being 'tough' to pull off. It takes precision memory and a keen eye to pick out the sleepers. Coins chosen (some say 'cherrypicked') by 'true' collectors are usually go for unusually high premiums. However, one has to be very picky, choosy, and willing to turn down buying a coin with the slightest flaw. Too often, a 'hack' collector who's memorized a few coin book values tries to go for just high grades without studying the coin. You can't buy the holder and expect anyone to pay you more for it. Anyways, I feel like I'm rambling but 'novices' are often prey for coin dealers. It takes practice and a lot of mistakes to realize the difficulty in choosing the 'right' coins. Then there are just some people who never get it. They just don't have the "eye" or patience to learn all the intricate details of cherrypicking. Of course, I specialize in Morgans and often re-grade my own coins spending hours looking at details in my study at home. The real challenge is finding "VAM's" which are the collector coins of collector coins. IT's the next "tier" in numismatics and most dealers find it too difficult to sift out VAM's from their own inventory. Case in point > I bought a 1895-S Morgan last year based on "Fine" condition alone for around $200. After careful research and studying, I found the "S" was slightly crooked. Then putting the coin under a microscope (yes, I said microscope), I discovered it's a VAM variety "S" over Horizontal "S" and the value is now in the $350-$400 range. Maybe I should sell it, maybe not....but it's worth more than I paid. :D

AuNuggets | 03-10-2005 06:44 PM
Re: True Value #2 "Having an eye" as you say makes all the difference in the world, and can make or break any collector, dealer, or investor. Blind faith in the slabs is one of the biggest mistakes I've seen investors make over the years, though true collectors (and very rarely dealers) only seldom fall into that trap. The invention of slabs was an attempt at commoditizing numismatics, though every coin is as different as night and day to an experienced eye. Being able to take a fresh roll of BU Morgans for instance, and picking out the top two or three coins is definately an acquired skill. Not many even today who can do so consistently other than those who do that kind of thing on a regular basis. Sometime around 1975 or 1976, one of my partners and I were at a medium sized regional show, when an older gent walked in the door with a large bag of coins, obviously a mint bag. Terry nearly ran up to him and invited him over to our table, at which time he said he had some old silver dollars to sell. Expecting a bunch of Las Vegas "slot dollars", we took them to the back table and poured them out for a look. To our surprise, it was a half mint bag of nice BU 1881-S dollars, common date of course, but some very nice dollars. We ended up offering him $8 a coin first pick of the bag, quantity of our choice. Regular BUs could be had for $6-7 each at the time, but there were alot of nice gems interspersed that would bring $12-15 without a problem. We ended buying the better half of the coins, and further picking the absolute gems (todays MS68s and better) out to put back for ourselves. The rest sold that same weekend and recouped the entire purchase amount, so we had the real gemmy pieces for basically nothing but our time in cherry-picking them out of the group. That was one of the last partial mint bags of Morgans we ever saw at a show. BU rolls were alot more common and available, but most had been cherry-picked before hand. After 1978 or so, real "gem" dollars started to become alot more scarce and alot more expensive. After the slabbing services started up in earnest, prices really took off. Gem Morgans were always a favorite of mine, and in all truth probably contributed more to "seed money" for dealings in bullion material in later years more than I would have believed possible when I first started buying them up in the late 60s-early 70s for relatively little of nothing. Those were the "good old days"....... :character

SilverStreak | 03-10-2005 11:55 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets Don't count your chickens before they hatch. :afraid: Take those coins to a few dealers, and get some real-world offers. After they are through under-grading and "appraising" them for you, maybe reality will set in. :stickyman
This is so very very true and so well said IMVVHO SilverStreak

The Argent Dragon | 03-14-2005 10:08 AM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by The Argent Dragon ...........BUT just to amuse a fellow PDB, I'm going to a show Saturday in which I will take the same coins to get offers. I'll then follow-up with a report on Monday. Mark my words....."better than gold" :banana:
HATCHING CHICKENS : Sunday at the coin show report : Okay, guys, here's the results which were "mixed" and I got the full scoop on the 'spread' for numismatic coinage. As it turns out, my $30 Large Cent 1853 was listed in the greysheet for $20-$25 depending on condition (VG-F). I was in high hopes to get $25 although I'm not trying to sell. Well, as it turns out there was a nice Morgan so liquidating my Large Cent became a 'mission'. In the end, the best deal I was offered was $15 (what I paid 2 yrs. ago.) as I got up to walk away the dealer quickly said, "I can go $17" and I knew his weakness because he was the only dealer at the show with several dozen large cents on displays and no Morgan Dollars..........so I sold it to re-invest into another Silver Dollar. My 1893-CC has another story. Let's see, I said it's about $215 retail, right ? IN fine condition, sure.....but in VG then the price falls to $185. Of course dealers use a greysheet so the bid/ask is about $135/$145. The dealer said he'd pay me about $130. Not all too bad since I only gave $114 for it last year but it was still discouraging. The 1884-CC GSA coin (worth about $215) - Never offerered it to any dealer because of my poor offers on the others. This was a small show and dealers were not in the buying mood - even for Carsons. Here's the "meat" of the issue..... The greysheet is supposed to be wholesale but it's now available to anyone who subscribes. The dealers, in turn, have re-established a new wholesale mark which is "below" wholesale. 80% of greysheet for most coins and 90% of greysheet for CC dollars. That means if you look up a coin in a book, magazine, online, etc. and it's listed for $200. The greysheet will be about $175-$185........and the dealer will only give you about $140-$148 for the coin. Too bad if you paid $180 even if other dealers have that coin for $200 at their tables.......the spread is a whopping 30-35% !!! Soooooooooooooo,......even if your coins rise in value 30-35% which is far better than most investments, you'll only break even by selling them to a dealer. :bawling: Hmmmmm.....I said rare coins rose 54% last year ? .....well take off the 30-35% spread and the real number is more like 20% which isn't bad but not as fantastic as it sounds. Plus, the 54% is an 'average' with some dates doing better than others. Oh, and for those that bought the $700 1889-CC last year, it's worth $1700 but actually listed in the greysheet for $1450-$1500 and the dealer will only pay you about $900-$1100 depending on how 'bad' he wants your coin. Lastly, remember they always 'bump' the coin down 1-grade then offer you 80% of wholesale. :rant: I'm being harsh since I know dealers have to make $$$ to cover their table expenses, etc.

AuNuggets | 03-14-2005 11:59 AM
Re: True Value #2 Unfortunately, "reality hits home" more often than not when selling numismatics, as others of us have been trying to get across in this thread. In reality, you are up 6.6 percent on the large cent, and 14 percent on the 93cc, or an average (of two coins) of about 10.3 percent in contrast to industry claims of 54% (whole market?) last year. This of course before factoring in opportunity costs, the fall in the dollar exchange rate, inflation, taxes, etc. as they may apply AND the dealer buy/sell spreads off the top as you have seen. Though gold and silver may or may not have matched or exceeded your results over the same period, holding the metals would have erased any doubts as to dealer spreads and actual current cash values, something that can be a big advantage over dealing with the uncertainties and arbitrary-value markets of collectibles.

The Argent Dragon | 03-14-2005 12:08 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets ...........Though gold and silver may or may not have matched or exceeded your results over the same period, holding the metals would have erased any doubts as to dealer spreads and actual current cash values, something that can be a big advantage over dealing with the uncertainties and arbitrary-value markets of collectibles.
Ahhhhh.......and I'm also seeing some advantages with a 'narrow' spread and why some bullion guys prefer gold to silver with a 'tighter' spread. Another thing that was mentioned by one of these dealers had to do with sale-ability. Since the CC morgans are 'quicker' movers, they're more liquid with a tighter spread that is close but still 10% more than bullion. That means even the very best, top dawg coins still are not truly liquid. 'Valuable' ~ maybe.....convertible to cash ~ 'somewhat' ......all with an overall risk factor greatly overshadowing any profits to be made. So in summation (and generally speaking), numistmatics are below 'average' investments often creating liabilities for the seller.

hoarder | 03-14-2005 12:32 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by The Argent Dragon Oh.......and BTW the last Gunshow I attended, I was "doubling" my money on every Carson City "CC" dollar I bought or traded for. :applause_ Take that one to the bank !!!
I go to gun shows often and see quite a few tables that carry all sorts of silver coins. There are usually plenty of one ounce generic rounds with asking prices 20% to 40% above spot. Obviously there is a sucker born every minute. But WTSHTF, numismatic value will not be where the interest is.

Bullionaire | 03-14-2005 01:24 PM
Re: True Value #2 The "Gray sheet" has been used by the public 25 years ago.....it is a guide, not gospel. Dealers have wants and needs....if all his money is tied up in inventory he will not make a good offer.....if you had 55 watermelons for sale with few buyers, and you are offered 20 more what would you do? Travel to the premier shows...ANA, Long Beach, Central states...those are the "beauty shows" Look at coins as a hobby, educate yourself, buy nice stuff, not generic puke. If you happen to make money great....buy for enjoyment. Whether it is sea shells, stamps, fossils, or twinkie wrappers, enjoy it, learn about it, do not dwell on the dollar made or lost...HAVE FUN

Mr. Shiny | 03-14-2005 01:27 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by The Argent Dragon Here's the "meat" of the issue..... The greysheet is supposed to be wholesale but it's now available to anyone who subscribes. The dealers, in turn, have re-established a new wholesale mark which is "below" wholesale. 80% of greysheet for most coins and 90% of greysheet for CC dollars. That means if you look up a coin in a book, magazine, online, etc. and it's listed for $200. The greysheet will be about $175-$185........and the dealer will only give you about $140-$148 for the coin.
gee, A.D., isn't that what i said? all kinds of "sheets". i think you owe me an apology.

The Argent Dragon | 03-15-2005 12:11 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny gee, A.D., isn't that what i said? all kinds of "sheets". i think you owe me an apology.
Apology ? .....fer whut ?!?! Yes, Mr. Shiny did mention "all sorts of sheets"......and I never contested the fact that several pricing guides do exist. However, I do NOT agree that pricing is purely "arbitrary" or loosely based on eroneous information. I'll give you credit for making a point about the plethora of guides available but that's all........... GOOD DAY Mr. SHiny 'Hiney'

Mr. Shiny | 03-15-2005 01:17 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by The Argent Dragon Apology ? .....fer whut ?!?! Yes, Mr. Shiny did mention "all sorts of sheets"......and I never contested the fact that several pricing guides do exist. However, I do NOT agree that pricing is purely "arbitrary" or loosely based on eroneous information. I'll give you credit for making a point about the plethora of guides available but that's all........... GOOD DAY Mr. SHiny 'Hiney'
let me see, i posted: Quote:
there are all sorts of "sheets", in all sorts of fields, every last one of them is designed to suck you in, take the Rappaport Report for diamonds, this is a supposedly "secret" price structure "sheet", problem is just about everybody buying a diamond knows about it, that's because jewelers let their customers in on the "secret", some secret! "see this, it's the Rappaport Report, shhhh, this is between you and me, i want you to see i'm not out to scam you, see this sheet says right here a 1carat vvs1/g is worth $xxxxx, i'm only making a small profit." "oh, o.k., i see, no, no, no, i trust you" "well that's good to know, i just want to be a fair dealer" (said with fingers crossed)
hmmm, not one mention of "arbitrary" or erroneous information. you replied: Quote:
A true b.s. statement from a PDB ! :applause_ :rofl: The greysheet is a dealer guide with "ask" and "bid" columns which attempt to standardize the market when coupled with professionally graded coins like PCGS and NGC. However, let me point out that the Greysheet has been 2-3 weeks behind on pricing because of the time to compose and print. It's been behind for 2-yrs. now and I'll bet you can't find a 'Carson City' dollar in any grade at 10% over greysheet. Likewise, any knowledgeable coin dealer will happily pay "greysheet" prices for your Carsons.....
i do believe "a true b.s. statement" is a contest. now be a man, admit your mistake, and apologize. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

The Argent Dragon | 03-15-2005 02:59 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny i do believe "a true b.s. statement" is a contest. now be a man, admit your mistake, and apologize. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
Okay, now I remember ! :haha: .....yes, there was B.S. !!!!!! Clarification Warning: The statement below is not 100% B.S. as there is some truth sprinkled in to fill the gaps of 'assumed' knowledge. "<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">there are all sorts of "sheets", in all sorts of fields, every last one of them is designed to suck you in, take the Rappaport Report for diamonds, this is a supposedly "secret" price structure "sheet", problem is just about everybody buying a diamond knows about it, that's because jewelers let their customers in on the "secret", some secret! "see this, it's the Rappaport Report, shhhh, this is between you and me, i want you to see i'm not out to scam you, see this sheet says right here a 1carat vvs1/g is worth $xxxxx, i'm only making a small profit." "oh, o.k., i see, no, no, no, i trust you" "well that's good to know, i just want to be a fair dealer" (said with fingers crossed) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> "All sorts of sheets" ? - ok......but they are NOT designed to "SUCK" people in ! The greysheet has validity in establishing a 'blue book' value on numismatic coins....but it is a GUIDE ! Just because a dealer uses it as a crutch and then modifies the #"s to suit his own needs doesn't warrant ANY liability on its publishers ! For Pete's sake Mr. Shiny ~ do you have ANY COMMON SENSE ?!?! :banghead: There's nothing "secret" about the greysheet either. Not one dealer that I approached showed me the 'Shiny' pricesheet or the 'Kubla Khan' price sheet. Every dealer that I approached discounted the greysheet. What my complaint was and still 'is' - is that you look up a coin in the Whitman's red book and it has a price like an MSRP. Then you read a coin guide like "coin values" at the local bookstore which is supposed to be 'fair market values'. Then you attend a coin show where everyone is using 'greysheets' which are wholesale prices. Of course the DEALER then modifies those low prices by 10%-20% and that's where the "all the guides are bogus - can't do me any good" mentality pops up because of a salesman who's not being 'fair'. It's business and profits are to be made regardless of the collector, investor, or if your name is 'SHINY'. I gotta admit that you're quite the stubborn one with completely different viewpoints from mine. These arguments are like playing chess where I'm focused on the overall game and meanwhile you keep taking my pawns and trying to put me in check. :fight: Finally, your statement is full of b.s. because there were no "Secret" price guides or special reports that backed up outrageous claims by the dealers. The dealers had their own formulas and simply didn't offer what I thought they would. It's ok, because as long as I know they're 10-cents for the 1-dollar I'll just need to pay 10-cents or less for my 'dollars' ......if you can follow my logic or will this spur another apology asking ???? :bowdown:

Mr. Shiny | 03-15-2005 03:38 PM
Re: True Value #2 A.D., S.T.F.D.,S.T.F.U., & maybe you will learn something! are you in the business? or are you just a collector? me i am in the business, i know every trick in the book, i could sell hot coffee & jalepenos in hell. believe me, your so called sheets, or as you seem to call them guides, are designed to sucker the collectors, if they are industy guides, why does everyone know of them? is everyone in the coin industry? just admit it to yourself, you are a sucker, you fell for it. Quote:
These arguments are like playing chess where I'm focused on the overall game and meanwhile you keep taking my pawns and trying to put me in check.
the last time i played chess that was the object of the game, you must be confused with tic-tac-toe.

The Argent Dragon | 03-15-2005 07:50 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny A.D., S.T.F.D.,S.T.F.U., & maybe you will learn something! are you in the business? or are you just a collector? me i am in the business, i know every trick in the book, i could sell hot coffee & jalepenos in hell. believe me, your so called sheets, or as you seem to call them guides, are designed to sucker the collectors, if they are industy guides, why does everyone know of them? is everyone in the coin industry? just admit it to yourself, you are a sucker, you fell for it. the last time i played chess that was the object of the game, you must be confused with tic-tac-toe.
#1 - Yes, I'm a 'collector' - a true numismatist who specializes in Morgan dollars. #2 - NO, I didn't fall for anything. I lost no money just some pride and the disappointment of not 'profiting' as I had hoped. #3 - "Check" what's your chess rating ???

negative1 | 03-15-2005 09:11 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny now be a man, admit your mistake, and apologize.
PDB (aka Shiny) must be like 4�2� tall because he exhibits all the symptoms of � little mans syndrome �. Kinda like a Chihuahua nipping at your shoe laces then when you accidentally step on him his ears drop, his eyes get big and then he wants an apology. Next he gets brave again and follows you to the next thread to go after your shoe laces again. -1

Mr. Shiny | 03-16-2005 09:04 AM
Re: True Value #2 what is your problem neg. one? i am pretty sure A.D. can fight his own fights. Quote:
Shiny must be like 4�2� tall because he exhibits all the symptoms of � little mans syndrome
have you been looking in my bathroom window AGAIN? you pervert! damn Army personnel, they see one pecker & they can't get enough!!!! i know, i know, don't ask, don't tell, but you have to admit, you are obsessed with fecal matter.

negative1 | 03-16-2005 11:19 AM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny me i am in the business, i know every trick in the book, i could sell hot coffee & jalepenos in hell. believe me, your so called sheets, or as you seem to call them guides, are designed to sucker the collectors, if they are industy guides, why does everyone know of them? is everyone in the coin industry? just admit it to yourself, you are a sucker, you fell for it.
I really can�t stand dealers that rob people however for every reputable dealer there are 2 or 3 dealers that will do their best to destroy any and all consumer trust in coins. When you encounter this type of �dealer� I would suggest the following�. 1. Never buy from that dealer. 2. Inform as many people as you can about his shady practices. 3. Put adds in local papers to offer to buy coins and to do free appraisals for seniors, so they have some idea what their coins are worth. They will come back to you with their coins when they hear what the rip off dealer will pay! 4. Get the word out to all the banks (in that dealers area and beyond) that you will buy coins and do appraisals. The tellers at banks are always good for some silver. 5. Tell other collectors of coins, gold and silver in your area to do the same. 6. Do all you can to dry the �dealer� up. The internet is killing a bunch of these guys businesses off so hopefully it will not take much to step on these Chihuahuas. -1

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Gold & Silver Forum - True Value #2

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Gold & Silver Forum (http://goldismoney.info/forums/index.php)
- Gold - Silver - Coins - Numismatics (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=51)
- - True Value #2 (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=19056)

Mr. Shiny | 03-16-2005 01:20 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by negative1 I really can�t stand dealers that rob people however for every reputable dealer there are 2 or 3 dealers that will do their best to destroy any and all consumer trust in coins. When you encounter this type of �dealer� I would suggest the following�. 1. Never buy from that dealer. 2. Inform as many people as you can about his shady practices. 3. Put adds in local papers to offer to buy coins and to do free appraisals for seniors, so they have some idea what their coins are worth. They will come back to you with their coins when they hear what the rip off dealer will pay! 4. Get the word out to all the banks (in that dealers area and beyond) that you will buy coins and do appraisals. The tellers at banks are always good for some silver. 5. Tell other collectors of coins, gold and silver in your area to do the same. 6. Do all you can to dry the �dealer� up. The internet is killing a bunch of these guys businesses off so hopefully it will not take much to step on these Chihuahuas. -1
yep, do what neg one says. neg one, keep up the intellegent posts, you are on a roll.

negative1 | 03-16-2005 01:31 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny yep, do what neg one says. neg one, keep up the intellegent posts, you are on a roll.
:D :D :D :D :D -1

The Argent Dragon | 03-17-2005 04:39 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny yep, do what neg one says. neg one, keep up the intellegent posts, you are on a roll.
Better yet, I think I'll just become a "dealer" myself. :albertein

Mr. Shiny | 03-17-2005 05:05 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by The Argent Dragon Better yet, I think I'll just become a "dealer" myself. :albertein
now, now, you can't do that, your "buddy" wants to dry up the dealers. (haw) notice how he uses jealousy green smiley's, hmmm, do tell, do tell.

The Argent Dragon | 03-18-2005 09:52 AM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny ....................... notice how he uses jealousy green smiley's, hmmm, do tell, do tell.
Thoses are "Army" green smiley's - "private" ! :cheerful: Yeah, a dealer is what I want to be - how does the saying go ? If you can't beat 'em, join 'em ???

Mr. Shiny | 03-18-2005 10:57 AM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Thoses are "Army" green smiley's
the pantywaists in the Army use "olive drab" green, those are clearly puke green! (from silver overdosage, i suspect) Quote:
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em ???
this is an exclusive club, ya gots ta pay your dues!!!! (that means rejecting all things silver, outta!, outta!, be gone!, cursed spirit of argentus! return to the firey depths whence you came!, ahhhhhhhmen.)

The Argent Dragon | 03-18-2005 11:25 AM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny ........this is an exclusive club, ya gots ta pay your dues!!!! (that means rejecting all things silver, outta!, outta!, be gone!, cursed spirit of argentus! return to the firey depths whence you came!, ahhhhhhhmen.)
What is so freakin' wrong with Silver ??? Guessing by your tone, you'd rather have FRN's over the Great White Metal ?

Mr. Shiny | 03-18-2005 01:16 PM
Re: True Value #2 can you say bulk? "b-b-b-u-ul-k-k-k" right, i knew you could do it! http://www.piercemattie.com/blogs/ar...ones-thumb.jpg this is gold^, see how pretty, .........and this is the silver^, see how gross thin and SEXY. .............................and LARGE and enough to put your ................................................ pecker inna mud. (shhh, i think ................................................ she's ex-Army) (you have to excuse all the periods, the server deletes extra spaces) makes you wanna toss your lunch doesn't it? .................................................. .................................................. .... also the fact that Au closed up $.7 and Ag closed down $.01

AuNuggets | 03-18-2005 01:28 PM
Re: True Value #2 Looks more like before marriage / after marriage pics to me........ :stickyman

Mr. Shiny | 03-18-2005 01:34 PM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets Looks more like before marriage / after marriage pics to me........ :stickyman
naw, in my experience if it were before/after marriage pic.s she'd be on a broom!

negative1 | 03-19-2005 02:12 AM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny . the fact that Au closed up $.7 and Ag closed down $.01
On Feb 8 if you had purchased an ounce of gold for the closing price $411.10 that one ounce of gold is worth $438.80 today. On Feb 8 if you had purchased $411 worth of silver (closing price $6.49) you would have ended up with 63 ounces. That 63 ounces of silver would be worth $463.05 today. I used Feb 8 because it was the lowest point for both gold and silver in the past 60 days. There is an argument for both these metals. In most cases they run hand in hand. -1

Maple Leaf Steve | 03-19-2005 03:58 AM
Re: True Value #2 I've been in the coin / bullion hobby since 1968. Numismatics is a Freakin Joke! I've had more coin dealers try to screw me over than there are hairs on Greenspans head. If you're going to invest in a collectible then invest in guns! (especially hand guns) Because when the SHTF in this country what will be worth more? A.) Your 1880s MS 65 silver dollar? or B.) Your 9mm semi-automatic SIG Sauer pistol with 500 rounds of ammo? Thats OK you guys keep on buying that crap in those PCGS plastic cases thats been marked up 80% and will take you 25 years to make a profit on. To each their own... MLS

agnut | 03-19-2005 10:19 AM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny can you say bulk? "b-b-b-u-ul-k-k-k" right, i knew you could do it! http://www.piercemattie.com/blogs/ar...ones-thumb.jpg this is gold^, see how pretty, .........and this is the silver^, see how gross thin and SEXY. .............................and LARGE and enough to put your ................................................ pecker inna mud. (shhh, i think ................................................ she's ex-Army) (you have to excuse all the periods, the server deletes extra spaces) makes you wanna toss your lunch doesn't it? .................................................. .................................................. .... also the fact that Au closed up $.7 and Ag closed down $.01
Mr. Shiny, either of these �babes� could eat you alive. Just depends how you want to go down. Sorry, couldn�t resist agnut

negative1 | 03-19-2005 10:52 AM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leaf Steve I've been in the coin / bullion hobby since 1968. Numismatics is a Freakin Joke! I've had more coin dealers try to screw me over than there are hairs on Greenspans head. If you're going to invest in a collectible then invest in guns! (especially hand guns) Because when the SHTF in this country what will be worth more? A.) Your 1880s MS 65 silver dollar? or B.) Your 9mm semi-automatic SIG Sauer pistol with 500 rounds of ammo? Thats OK you guys keep on buying that crap in those PCGS plastic cases thats been marked up 80% and will take you 25 years to make a profit on. To each their own... MLS
Damn now we are going to start talking guns.... http://www.moobak.com/users/images/Springfield%202.JPG -1

Mr. Shiny | 03-21-2005 07:59 AM
Re: True Value #2 Alrighty, a bulk discussion for all you silver doods. Let�s say, hypothetically, I, as a gold bug, have 100ozt of the shiny yellow metal, at today�s (friday 3/18/05)close of $438.80, is worth $43,880usd and weighs 100ozt (of course). And a silver dood has the same dollar amount invested in sludge. That same value ($43,880) in .999 silver, would weigh 5970 ozt, The same value in 90% silver, would weigh 6074 ozt, And finally for the 40%ers the same value in 40% silver, would weigh 6613 ozt. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> So, while my gold would weigh 6 7/8 lbs avoirdupois and fit in a space less than two packs of king size cigarettes. Your silver (.999) would weigh 410.4 lbs avoirdupois and I have no reference to size, but a cubic foot of Ag weighs 679 lbs. And the 40% = 454.6 lbs. So, in conclusion, silver is bulky, very bulky, and too bulky in fact for the average serious investor interested in hands-on storage and transport of physical metal. <o:p></o:p> As a hands-on example, take a dime and place it on a table top, that dime will represent gold, next to it place 1 $10 roll of quarters and 1 dime that will represent silver (.999), Quite a difference, huh?

SilverStreak | 03-21-2005 08:11 AM
Re: True Value #2 Yes, I have no reason to doubt your figures or your conclusions and that is why Ted Butler has been harping on the silver issue as you get a tremendous amount of silver for your buck and that is why the potential exists for a HOME RUN exists in silver as again you get a lot for your money

negative1 | 03-21-2005 08:39 AM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by negative1 There is an argument for both these metals. In most cases they run hand in hand. -1
That goes both for the ups and the downs,,,,,DO NOT LOOK AT THE KITCO LINK TODAY. Time to buy -1

Mr. Shiny | 03-21-2005 08:42 AM
Re: True Value #2 Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverStreak Yes, I have no reason to doubt your figures or your conclusions and that is why Ted Butler has been harping on the silver issue as you get a tremendous amount of silver for your buck and that is why the potential exists for a HOME RUN exists in silver as again you get a lot for your money
huh? if all you want is bulk, buy feathers or packing peanuts.

Mr. Shiny | 03-21-2005 08:55 AM
Re: True Value #2 negative 1, you posted: Quote:
On Feb 8 if you had purchased an ounce of gold for the closing price $411.10 that one ounce of gold is worth $438.80 today. On Feb 8 if you had purchased $411 worth of silver (closing price $6.49) you would have ended up with 63 ounces. That 63 ounces of silver would be worth $463.05 today.
that is all well and good, except, you need to plug in the spread, and we all know that the spread in Ag is alot larger than in gold.

AuNuggets | 03-21-2005 09:26 AM
Re: True Value #2 SilverStreak wrote: ......"that is why the potential exists for a HOME RUN exists in silver as again you get a lot for your money"...... HUH ? I don't guess I quite follow the logic here. Just because dirt is cheap and you get alot for a buck doesn't mean the potential exists for a big increase in value based on that fact alone. Mr. Shiney wrote: ......"if all you want is bulk, buy feathers or packing peanuts"...... ROTFLMAO just trying to imagine the storage problems...... :rofl:

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