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Hobo | 11-15-2004 03:45 PM
non-confiscatable PMs I know talking about confiscation is probably an old topic around here, but I'm rather new, so excuse me for beating a dead horse. I read somewhere that China's pandas are non-confiscatable, because China is not either one of the US allies or something with their trading status. Now I can't find the article that I read this in and I am driving myself nuts! That's why they say Maple Leafs and the such could be confiscated. Anyone out there ever see this article? So if you have an extra $250, and wanted to buy gold, what would you get? Would you buy a bunch of 1/10 oz eagles, maples, pandas? Or look at some pre 1933 coins? Or some of those 1 or 5 gram bars (with assay card)? I got some silver and may have a small windfall coming and was thinking of gettin' some gold. (more for survival purposes rather than trying to make a fast buck). Thanks for your thoughts.

Duncan | 11-15-2004 05:11 PM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs 1/10th oz. Eagles IF you have all your silver purchased already!

Anthony | 11-15-2004 05:31 PM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs Hobo, Statutes about hoarding don't take into account the picture on the gold. Gold is gold. Go for what is most acceptable. In my mind, when it comes to confiscation, everything will be fair game. Can you imagine, they come to take your gold and say "Yo boss, we can't take this gold, it has pretty little pictures of pandas on them." Right. If they come to get gold, they will take it all. Keep this in mind when storing your pm.

Hobo | 11-15-2004 07:08 PM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs I found the article! This is where I read about the pandas. Here is part of the article and the link at the bottom of this post. Interestingly, since the beginning of this year 2004, there have been record sales of the American Eagle gold bullion coins, Canadian Maple Leaf coins, etc. by existing American owners and record purchases by the same holders, of the Chinese Panda Gold Bullion Coin, which has distorted the spread between Pandas and all other gold bullion coins. This is being caused by a tiny quirk in the law, wherein the U.S. Treasury cannot call in for redemption, forced or otherwise, gold bullion coins held by U.S. citizens which are denominated, marginally or otherwise, in a foreign currency which is not �Free to Trade� and as such constitutes a �non-convertible currency� by the Bank of International Settlement (BIS). This, in turn, makes the Chinese Gold Bullion Panda Coins, which are issued by the Bank of China, the only officially authorized issued gold bullion coin of a major foreign government, exempt from U.S. Treasury redemption. Why? Because, Chinese Panda coins are denominated in the Yuan, China�s official currency, which is a non-convertible currency, in accordance with BIS�s definition. link---> http://www.stormfront.org/archive/t-..._Upgraded.html

Duncan | 11-15-2004 07:11 PM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs Use the old saying, "He who has the gold makes the rules" and play with it a while. He who rules, wants the gold. He who wants the gold makes the rules. However He who hides the gold doesn't give a $hit about the rules. There are others, anybody care to add to it?

Walter Mitty | 11-15-2004 08:57 PM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs The only precious metals they are going to get from me is some surplus copper & lead travelling in their direction at about 2700 FPS.

Bobcat | 11-15-2004 09:11 PM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs One of the interesting factoids concerning the 1933 confiscation order was that no one was prosecuted for not turning in their gold. The government bluffed, the sheeple followed, and the FED got what they wanted. How clever. If there was a real hardball confiscation nothing would be exempt. But guess what?....it's nobody's business what I may or may not have. If the government offered to buy PM's at above market value, they would get plenty of takers....no need to confiscate.

Halophyte | 11-15-2004 11:56 PM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobcat One of the interesting factoids concerning the 1933 confiscation order was that no one was prosecuted for not turning in their gold. The government bluffed, the sheeple followed, and the FED got what they wanted. How clever.
The bluff was an executive order posted on U.S.Postal office wall in plain view of the public - the only place it could be legally posted and yet be in view for all to read. The bluff was expecting the public to surrender their property under orders that only legally extended to the employees of the federal government. The bluff was to the ignorance of the general 8th grade educated public - because excutive orders do not veto the constitutional definition of legal private money of the several states. The bluff worked back then. Won't happen again.

PONCE | 11-16-2004 12:37 AM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs I say, you say, he says that he said,,,,,,,,, we could talk about this and any other subject for ever but as you well know Uncle Sam and the power to be has the power to can change the rules of the game at will. As long as you hold PM you will be able to control your own destiny in the future, buy PM put it away and forget about it and no one will be able to consficate it from you. Be sure to leave to clues as to who you are when you buy your physical PM and always buy under the $10,000 at any one time so that they wont ask you to fill a form for Uncle Sam. "Gold is good but silver will fly",,,,,, Ponce

FoundingFathers | 11-16-2004 09:05 AM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs http://www.certifiedmint.com/myths_lies.htm Myths, Misunderstandings and Outright Lies! Some precious metals firms foster the circulation of many myths, misunderstandings, and outright lies about the purchase and sale of precious metals. Generally, these misconceptions and falsehoods promote the notion that the government may again call in gold as it did in 1933 and that "reportable" transactions are preludes to confiscation. By cultivating such fears in investors, unscrupulous firms can sell high-priced (and often overpriced) coins with greater margins of profit. Investors who believe these stories invariably pay too much or buy the wrong coins. After reading this Web page, no investor need be taken advantage of. Avoiding Confiscation The most frequently used technique to promote high-priced coins is to raise the issue of confiscation. Many telemarketers tell investors that old U.S. gold coins are not "subject to confiscation," leaving the impression that modern gold bullion coins are. Consequently, many investors buy old U.S. gold coins at prices significantly higher than the value of their gold content. The idea of buying "non-confiscateable'' gold sounds like a powerful argument but wilts under scrutiny. Many precious metals firms maintain that old U.S. gold coins, proof sets, and commemorative gold coins are "collectibles" and would not be subject to another gold recall. Some firms say that premiums of at least 15% automatically make coins collectibles. Another notion holds that coins one hundred years or older are antiques and therefore not subject to confiscation. One large firm that sells rare coins goes as far as to say: Under current federal law, gold bullion can be confiscated by the federal government in times of national crisis. As collectibles, rare coins do not fall within the provisions permitting confiscation. No federal law or Treasury department regulation supports these contentions. The myth that specific types of gold coins are "not confiscateable" stems from the Executive Order that President Roosevelt issued in 1933 calling in gold. The Executive Order exempted "gold coins having a recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coins," but it did not define special value or collector, and certainly not collectibles. Nevertheless, telemarketers promoting old U.S. gold coins perpetuate this myth because it makes easier the selling of high-priced coins. Just because Roosevelt exempted "gold coins having a recognized special value" does not mean that any future call-in would exempt collectibles. Roosevelt's Executive Order would have no legal binding on another gold call-in. Besides, on December 31, 1974, with Executive Order 11825, President Gerald Ford repealed the Executive Order that Roosevelt used to call in gold in 1933. This was necessary because on the same day Congress restored Americans' right to own gold. Furthermore, in 1977 Congress removed the president's authority to regulate gold transactions during a period of national emergency other than war. Even if a law did exempt certain coins from future confiscation, the government could change that law. Sadly, the government often simply ignores laws. Dealers who say they sell "non-confiscateable" gold have no basis for making such claims. For further discussion of this matter, assume there were another gold call-in. Would old U.S. gold coins, which make up the bulk of the "non-confiscateable" market, be exempted? Probably not because they are common coins. (The old U.S. gold coins most often promoted are the $20 Libertys and the $20 St. Gaudens, also known as Double Eagles. A $10 coin is called an Eagle, a $5 coin a Half Eagle, and a $2-1/2 coin a Quarter Eagle.) Although Roosevelt's Executive Order required Americans to turn in their gold coins and gold bullion, foreigners continued to redeem paper dollars for gold until August 15, 1971, when President Nixon closed the gold window. From the end of World War II to 1971, our gold reserves were cut in half. It is generally believed that all the gold coins surrendered under Roosevelt's call-in were melted or refined into .999 fine bullion bars. That was not the case. It was to the government's advantage to give the foreigners gold coins instead of bullion bars. With the official price of gold at $35 an ounce, a foreign bank presenting $35 million paper dollars received 1,000,000 ounces if the Treasury delivered gold bullion. However, when the Treasury delivered gold coins with a face value of $35 million, it delivered only 967,500 ounces, saving 32,500 ounces. Each $20 Liberty and St. Gaudens (Double Eagles) contains .9675 ounce of gold. The smaller coins contain the same proportions. Therefore, it was to the Treasury Department's advantage to give out U.S. gold coins instead of bullion bars. Additionally, before Roosevelt's call-in, millions of old U.S. gold coins already had made their way to Europe. So, in view of the government's policy of delivering "confiscated" gold coins to foreign governments, how can a promoter of old U.S. gold coins claim to be selling "non-confiscateable" gold when the coins he delivers may have been called in back in 1933? Promoters of old U.S. gold coins rarely reveal the sources of their coins. They foster the idea that the coins they sell somehow survived the 1933 call-in. Probably, the coins being promoted just arrived from Europe a few weeks earlier. Several large numismatic wholesale firms have offices in Europe for finding hoards of old U.S. coins. One firm advertises "Shipments coming in from Europe daily." Another firm boasts offices in Brussels, Paris, and Zurich. As noted above, the premise of "non-confiscateable" gold lies in Roosevelt's Executive Order that exempted "gold coins having recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coins." Are old U.S. gold coins "rare and unusual" today? Not hardly. Between 1850 and 1907, U.S. mints turned out over 100 million $20 Libertys. Between 1908 and 1933, they coined some 65 million $20 St. Gaudens. Today, no one knows how many have survived, but the number is undoubtedly in the tens of millions, with the bulk of them residing in European bank vaults. Because of all the old U.S. gold coins in Europe and because of the huge premiums they carry, old U.S. coins are dangerous investments at this time. If gold rallies, European banks may see it as an opportunity to unload, causing old U.S. gold coins to fall in price while gold goes up. For further discussion about why old U.S. gold coins are overpriced, see Old U.S. Gold Coins. If gold fails to rally, the banks may fear gold will stay down for a long time, prompting them to resume selling. This, too, would cause the old U.S. gold coins to fall in price, shrinking the premiums at which they sell over spot. Since 1989, PCGS and NGC, the two major grading services, have "slabbed" over two million coins rated MS-60 or higher. Now, the two services are grading 200,000 to 300,000 coins a month. (See PCGS, NGC, and "Slabbed" Coins on our Web page Old U.S. Gold Coins.) Millions of lower-grade coins (VF through BU) do not even warrant being submitted. Yet, they are sold as "non-confiscateable" semi-numismatic coins. Low-grade coins that have no real collector value are called semi-numismatic. VF/XF common-date Double Eagles are definitely semi-numismatic coins. Add in the uncounted smaller denomination old gold coins ($10 Eagles, $5 Half Eagles, etc.) and the number of available old U.S. gold coins grows even bigger. There is no way the old U.S. gold coins being promoted as "non-confiscateable" have a "recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coins." The concept of "non-confiscateable" gold is counterfeit. The idea lives only because dealers continue to push it for their own benefit. Investors who do not have the facts are unable to know otherwise. Readers of this Web page, however, need not be victims to the hype and promotion so prevalent in the gold coin industry. Investors wanting to buy gold should go with the bullion coins: American Gold Eagles, Maple Leafs, or Krugerrands. These coins move dollar for dollar with the world price of gold and are easy to buy, sell, and trade. Additionally, tracking the value of these coins is easy. No "expert" has to look at them. Avoid European Coins Over the last few years, telemarketers have been importing European bullion gold coins dated before 1933 and claiming they, like old U.S. gold coins, would be legally beyond the reach of the government in another recall. The imported coins most commonly promoted as non-confiscateable include: � French Twenty Francs (both the Roosters and the Angels); � British Sovereigns (usually with the images of Queen Victoria or Edward II or George V); � Swiss Twenty Francs (also called Helvetias); � Belgium Twenty Francs (a.k.a. King Leopolds); � Swedish and Danish 10 Kroners (Mermaids); � Swedish and Danish 20 Kroners; � Dutch 10 Guilders. Investors should avoid European coins. As noted above, the notion of "non-confiscateable" coins has no merit, and dealers promoting European coins do so because they provide bigger profits. That's bigger profits for the dealers, not their clients. European coins are not worth the high prices promoters ask. Regardless of the dates on them, they are not "non-confiscateable." Additionally, they hold little, if any, numismatic potential. It is a peculiarity of the coin collecting that coins are prized by numismatists (coin collectors) only in their countries of origin. Americans collect U.S. coins; the British collect coins of Great Britain; the Japanese collect Japanese coins, etc. Furthermore, the European coins are often compared with old U.S. gold coins, which can and do achieve premiums at times (See Old U.S. Gold Coins). European coins, as a rule, are simply bullion coins and will never attain genuine numismatic premiums. Some of the coins have been around for a hundred years and have always sold at only a few dollars above the value of their gold content. That is why telemarketers promote them. They buy the European coins near bullion prices and mark them up, ensuring big profits for themselves. Still, there are other reasons for not buying European coins, even when you can get them at reasonable prices. First, they contain unconventional amounts of gold, such as .1867 oz, or .2354 oz, or .1947 oz. Americans prefer full ounce coins, or fractions of ounces they easily understand, such as 1/2-oz, 1/4-oz, or 1/10-oz. Second, Americans prefer coins stamped in English. The European coins, obviously, are stamped in the languages of their countries of origin. But perhaps worse, the European coins do not have their gold content stamped on them. If you have to use such coins in an emergency, how are you going to convince someone other than a coin dealer that the coins contain the gold content you say? Your best buys in fractional-ounce gold coins are American Eagles, Canadian Maple Leafs, or Krugerrands, although fractional-ounce Krugerrands can be difficult to find at times. These coins have their gold content stamped in English and come in sizes Americans are used to dealing with. Always, these coins are cheaper than promoted European coins. Even when you find European coins at bullion prices, fractional-ounce Gold Eagles, Maple Leafs, or Krugerrands are comparably priced. There are no compelling reasons for Americans to buy European coins. Americans should buy Gold Eagles, Maple Leafs, or Krugerrands. Reportable Purchases Often, promoters will claim that the coins they offer are not subject to "reporting." Such statements imply the government requires gold transactions be reported. However, no government regulations require the reporting of the purchases of any precious metals, per se. If payment is made by cash greater than $10,000, however, it becomes a "cash reporting transaction." It is not the gold that the government wants reported but the cash. Such reporting applies to all business transactions involving more than $10,000 cash. Regarding cash transactions, Official General Instructions for IRS Form 8300 read: "Who Must File. - Each person engaged in a trade or business who, during that trade or business, receives more than $10,000 in cash in one transaction or two or more related transactions must file Form 8300. Any transactions conducted between a payer (or its agent) and the recipient in a 24-hour period are related transactions. This regulation applies to cash - greenbacks, paper money. It does not apply to personal checks, wire transfers, or money market withdrawals. When cashier's checks or money orders are involved, cash reporting may be triggered. Form 8300's General Instructions define as cash "a cashier's check, bank draft, traveler's check, or money order having a face amount of not more than $10,000." Using a cashier's check less than $10,000 would be a "cash transaction," but it would not be reportable because it is less than $10,000. However, two cashier's checks, each less than $10,000 but totaling more than $10,000 for a single purchase, would be considered cash and subject to reporting. Further clarification: If an investor makes a $15,000 investment in gold and pays with a single $15,000 cashier's check, it is not reportable. If, however, he pays with two or more cashier's checks each less than $10,000, the dealer would be obligated to report. Cash reporting requirements were not written specifically for the precious metals industry but for all businesses. The purchase of a car, boat, or jewelry, and payment with two cashier's checks, each less than $10,000 but totaling more than $10,000, would be a reportable transaction. Another example: an investor agrees to buy precious metals totaling more than $10,000, again say $15,000, and wants to make payments with money from two accounts. If the investor withdraws $8,000 from the first account and gets a cashier's check, and then gets another cashier's check for $7,000 from the second account, the transaction becomes reportable. A purchase of $30,000 and payment with two $15,000 cashier's checks would not be a reportable transaction. The significant amount is $10,000. Personal checks or checks drawn on the payer's own account are not considered cash. Form 8300's General Instructions read: "Cash does not included a check drawn on the payer's own account, such as a personal check, regardless of the amount. " Related Transactions Form 8300's General Instructions say "Transactions are considered related even if they occur over a period of more than twenty-four hours if the recipient knows, or has reason to know, that each transaction is one of a series of connected transactions." For example, if an investor agrees to buy $20,000 in gold but makes installment payments with cash in amounts less than $10,000, the purchase would be reportable. Bank Reporting It is often erroneously thought that banks report to the government all personal checks more than $10,000. Banks do not. But, a cash transaction exceeding $10,000 requires a bank to fill out and file a Cash Transaction Report (CTR). A cash deposit more than $10,000 to any bank or other financial institution account by an individual possibly would be reported. However, purchases of cashier�s checks with cash for amounts $3,000 to $10,000 require banks to complete Monetary Instrument Reports (MIRs). (Some banks call them Monetary Instrument Logs.) MIRs are not filed with the government but are records that enable banks to help comply with cash reporting requirements. It is not clear when a MIR requires the completion and filing of a CTR, but an individual regularly purchasing cashier�s checks between $3,000 and $10,000 would probably be reported. If a business reports a cash transaction, the customer will know it. Form 8300 requires name, address, citizenship, and social security number. It also asks for method of identification, driver's license, passport, etc. Additionally, Form 8300's General Instructions call for anyone filing a Form 8300 to "provide a written statement to each person named in a required Form 8300 on or before January 31 of the year following the calendar year in which the cash is received." Finally, Form 8300 General Instructions has a box to be marked if the transactions appear "suspicious." The box can be marked for transactions less than $10,000 if the recipient believes the purchaser is trying to avoid cash reporting. No one wants any red flags at the IRS. Unscrupulous dealers know this and use it to avert clear thinking; they use the threat of "reporting" to raise investor fear. This enables them to sell overpriced coins. Investors justify higher prices by thinking they are getting "non-reportable gold." No investor need be taken advantage of this way. Reportable Sales Customer sales to dealers of certain precious metals exceeding specific quantities call for reporting to the IRS on 1099B forms. The 1099B forms are similar to other 1099 forms taxpayers commonly receive; the "B" means they have been issued by a business other than a financial entity. Reportable sales (again, customer sales to dealers) apply to 1-oz Gold Maple Leafs, 1-oz Krugerrands, and 1-oz Mexican Onzas in quantities of twenty-five or more in one transaction. Reporting requirements do not apply to American Gold Eagles, no matter the quantities. Furthermore, reporting requirements do not apply to any fractional ounce gold coins. Only one common silver product is reportable when sold: pre-1965 U.S. coins. The quantity that causes the filing of a 1099B, however, is not clear. The IRS bases its authority to require reporting on CFTC-approved contracts that call for the delivery of $10,000 face value. Consequently, many dealers do not report sales of pre-1965 U.S. coins unless the sale totals $10,000 face value; others report $1,000 sales. Sales of American Silver Eagles, privately-minted Silver Eagles, and 100-oz silver bars are not reportable, no matter the quantity. Other precious metals products are reportable, but they are not covered here because the average investor does not trade them. Most investors have no first-hand knowledge of these matters; consequently, when precious metals dealers talk about cash reporting, 8300 forms, or 1099s, investors are unable to know that they may not be hearing the whole story. Wanting to avoid the government knowing about their precious metals investments, many investors are delighted to learn that their purchases will not be reported and end up buying overpriced coins. As explained under "Reportable Purchases," no precious metals purchases are reported unless cash reporting thresholds are exceeded. Investors wanting to avoid reportable sales should buy American Eagles. The above discussions about cash reporting, IRS Form 8300, and bank reporting are for editorial purposes only and should not be relied on as definitive and final. Persons involved in cash transactions should consult their attorney or accountant. Investors wanting to buy gold should go with the bullion coins: American Gold Eagles, Maple Leafs, or Krugerrands. These coins move dollar for dollar with the world price of gold and are easy to buy, sell, and trade. Additionally, tracking the value of these coins is easy. No "expert" has to look at them. Visit our Gold Bullion Coins page and afterwards call CMI at 1-800-528-1380 to order, or to get any points clarified. Or, visit our Web page Doing Business with Certified Mint, Inc. (For a discussion as to why you should buy gold and silver, click here.) Back to Top Call CMI at 1-800-528-1380 for answers to any questions or clarifications. Our hours are 7:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Mountain Standard Time, Mondays through Fridays. Our offices are in the middle of the Phoenix, Arizona financial district. CMI has had the same bank account since its inception in 1973. References available on request. About CMI | Doing Business with CMI | Modern Gold Bullion Coins | Modern Platinum Bullion Coins | Silver Bullions & Silver Coins | Old U.S.Gold Coins | Myths, Misunderstanding and Outright Lies | Client Newsletter | Putting Precious Metals in Your IRA | Spot Prices & Commentary | Links to Related Web Sites | Glossary | Survival| Contact CMI | Legal | Coin Guide | Home

l_wo0 | 11-16-2004 09:39 AM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs Cool! Glad you read it! I thought it was a good thing for people to know but, as it said, Uncle Sam doesn't always care for it's own laws. Interesting site, cool people and nice posts, look forward to reading more Louis

samwheat | 11-17-2004 06:49 PM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs What would happen to the dollar if we were told to turn in PMs? I read that if that were to happen, then all worldwide confidence in the dollar would collapse.

PONCE | 11-17-2004 07:32 PM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs Founding DaDa? I did not read anything about the one oz rounds that I sold back in 1980 (large ammount) and I was told that it was non reportable therefore non taxable,,,,,what's the deal on that? There was a trouble maker here a while back that said that it WAS reportable. As a very honest person I would not dare to break the Americans laws by not paying all my due taxes,,,,,,,,heheheheh, later I'll tell you another bed time story.

lhslancers | 11-17-2004 07:39 PM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs It is taxable Ponce however I don't work for the man and if you can screw him more power to you. :coolbeer:

Bobcat | 11-17-2004 08:13 PM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs Quote:
Originally Posted by PONCE Founding DaDa? I did not read anything about the one oz rounds that I sold back in 1980 (large ammount) and I was told that it was non reportable therefore non taxable,,,,,what's the deal on that? There was a trouble maker here a while back that said that it WAS reportable. As a very honest person I would not dare to break the Americans laws by not paying all my due taxes,,,,,,,,heheheheh, later I'll tell you another bed time story.
I thought that "troublemaker" had quiet you down, but since you continue to brag about it, you should know the "reality". All capital gains are taxable, and your transaction was taxable. There is no statute of limitations on fraud, and it is possible that the man could still come after you. From what you have said many times, you probably had a tax liability well into 6 figures. Now, with penalities and interest, it is probably well into 7 figures. How does that sound? The only thing you were exempt from was the sales tax when you purchased them, same as it is now. How would a 7 figure tax liability fit into your plan?

LeadBrick | 11-18-2004 07:05 AM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs I maintain that it is not worthwhile worrying about confiscation. Let's play devil's advocate here. I believe confiscation is unlikely, but let us assume for the moment that it is very likely. In today's world, escaping confiscation could be a very difficult task. Today, no one knows how to use gold as money, so forget using it in every day transactions. You could think about escaping to another country, but good luck getting your gold by airport security. Even if you can smuggle it out, you can probably count on the International Monetary Fund, World Bank, and Bank of International Settlements to exert their influence and have other countries police on the US government's behalf. Capital and currency controls will be very comprehensive in the Patriot Act era. In other words, if the US gov't does decide to confiscate, it is unlikely that you will be able to escape it and be able to utilize it, so there is no use worrying about it. I'll leave it to others here to discuss all the numerous reasons why this is unlikely. That said, the mere myth of confiscation could mean potential profits if you care to speculate on the growth of this fear. But this really is speculation. If you accept it as such, I see no problem trying out some numismatics.

hoarder | 11-18-2004 07:49 AM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs Quote:
Originally Posted by LeadBrick In today's world, escaping confiscation could be a very difficult task. Today, no one knows how to use gold as money, so forget using it in every day transactions. You could think about escaping to another country, but good luck getting your gold by airport security. Even if you can smuggle it out, you can probably count on the International Monetary Fund, World Bank, and Bank of International Settlements to exert their influence and have other countries police on the US government's behalf. Capital and currency controls will be very comprehensive in the Patriot Act era. In other words, if the US gov't does decide to confiscate, it is unlikely that you will be able to escape it and be able to utilize it, so there is no use worrying about it. I'll leave it to others here to discuss all the numerous reasons why this is unlikely. That said, the mere myth of confiscation could mean potential profits if you care to speculate on the growth of this fear. But this really is speculation. If you accept it as such, I see no problem trying out some numismatics.
Methinks Leadbrick is a member of the fiat regime. Remember that all your posts are available for review by members of this forum. Your fear-mongering about confiscation is not going unnoticed.

l_wo0 | 11-18-2004 01:08 PM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs To tell you the truth I do think that confiscation is a threat, I'm not sure how big of one but I think it is. Under the Patriot act and Patriot Act II it will be very hard to hide much. Unwarranted searches, no jury in a secret trial. All of that is in the Act II. You can read the document yourself if you doubt me. I didn't understand LeadBricks post all that well but I think what I think, unless you can convince me otherwise. Logically that is. Louis

hoarder | 11-18-2004 01:31 PM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs Quote:
Originally Posted by l_wo0 To tell you the truth I do think that confiscation is a threat, I'm not sure how big of one but I think it is. Under the Patriot act and Patriot Act II it will be very hard to hide much. Unwarranted searches, no jury in a secret trial. All of that is in the Act II. You can read the document yourself if you doubt me. I didn't understand LeadBricks post all that well but I think what I think, unless you can convince me otherwise. Logically that is. Louis
Put yourself in the shoes of the fiat regime....strategically. Real money (gold and silver) is a threat to their power. If investors make money on PM's it is very detrimental to their grip. Think about that. They must keep the sheep faithful to fiat by any means possible including eliminating any other alternative. This is what all the PM manipulation is about. It's not the "silver users" as they would have you think. Look at the small size of the silver users compared to the huge power bloc of media and banking. So the fiat regime uses all sorts of tactics to suppress metals. Psychology is a powerful weapon/tool. If they can convince us that we won't do well on PM investments because they will be confiscated they have accomplished their objective. One way they do this by signing up on PM forums and planting seeds of doubt. What better tactic than bringing up the confiscation subject again and again? Certainly there are members who have brought up the subject innocently. The innocent ones and the infiltrators can be separated by reading all their posts. Also check to see if they have deleted old posts. Look at the tactics they use. Look for manipulative moves. Look for modus operandi.

LeadBrick | 11-19-2004 06:27 AM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder Methinks Leadbrick is a member of the fiat regime. Remember that all your posts are available for review by members of this forum. Your fear-mongering about confiscation is not going unnoticed.
Methinks you have not actually read the entire post. Did you even read the part where I said: "I maintain that it is not worthwhile worrying about confiscation." "I believe confiscation is unlikely..." To clarify: Theory #1: confiscation will never happen Conclusion: buy lots of PM's today Theory #2: confiscation will definitely happen (playing devil's advocate) Conclusion: buy even more PM's today Methinks you read what you want and that you are too closed-minded to accept any conclusion other than your own. Confiscation may or may not happen. But if it does happen, it will be because gold has hit $10,000 per ounce, at which point, you will have done very well for yourself.

LeadBrick | 11-19-2004 06:37 AM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs The closed-mindedness of community bulletin boards baffles me. I left behind some conventional investment websites because they were too closed-minded about PM's. Then I come here and I run into a completely different bunch of closed-minded people. It seems that the belief system around here is: 1) PM's are in the beginnings of a bull market (I whole-heartedly agree. I am using a Dow/POG target of 1.) 2) PM's will once again resume the role of money, replacing all fiat all over the world (I give this a 25% chance). 3) The gov't is evil (I whole-heartedly agree) 4) Should you disagree with any of the above, you are an agent of the evil fiat regime and must be excommunicated. Should this be so, perhaps you should apply this test to all community members and excommunicate all according to "4)". Then all 15 of you remaining members can talk amongst yourselves.

Ragnarok | 10-01-2005 06:41 PM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs Looking at history one can't eliminate the possibility of a (resource of your choice here) grab by powers that be, bluff or not. The "government" itself is a powerless, lifeless body - somewhere a living being or beings takes all the decisions and they will do whatever they think they can get away with or feel they must do, to secure their holdings and keep their jobs. Just like you and me. Whoever blinks last wins. I don't seem to remember jewelry being on the list of things being begged for in 1933.

RealityCheck | 10-01-2005 08:31 PM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs The patriot act has a part about precious metals in regard to money laundering. If confiscation becomes a reality suddenly you are a terrorist. Then they can use all it's powers against you including putting you through their little funhouse of horrors out in Guantamo Bay :birthday: . I don't think the public would ever resort to using them if there was confiscation because it would be to risky. I say don't worry about though, there is not much you can do to prevent it, if it does happen, and its still safer than worthless paper. Its one of those things the more you think about it, the more frustrated you get and its not healthy. just my 2 cents.

Silverity | 10-03-2005 11:31 AM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs I think people misunderstand what a future confiscation is all about. It is about a return to a gold standard. The calling in of gold across the world will be to bolster central bank reserves ahead of gold remonetization. Now, you may avoid handing in your gold, but when the confiscation/buying/recalling ends, gold will be fixed at a new price appropriate to the state of the monetary system and the needs of the economy. My guess is they'll recall/purchase at $XXX and ounce and then revalue at 3 or 4 times $XXX plus slap a huge windfall profit taxes on anyone who didn't hand gold over in anticipation of selling at a higher profit or just plain ban bullion sales for a period of years!

Ragnarok | 12-04-2005 11:17 PM
Re: non-confiscatable PMs There are some that say that gold will be marked to market in a future monetary system, making confiscation a thing of the past. The Euro is an attempt at this - letting gold run alongside the currency, and striving for stability, not constant growth that cannot be sustained (like the dollar-system). Whether it will work is uncertain. There are political wills that want gold under someone's thumb, and those that don't. The oil/gold/dollar/euro battle between these wills is raging as we blog. The best thing that could happen in the worst case scenario is that not one ounce of gold is turned in. To turn in your gold in the face of a confiscation is the same as you handing your gun to someone that does not have one that is demanding you give yours to them - so they can shoot you!

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