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- - what does "gem uncirculated" mean if not certified? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=59359)

Anty Ep | 08-30-2006 11:27 AM
what does "gem uncirculated" mean if not certified? I am trying to identify specific questions and ask them here that will help me learn about these topics from you old hands. I guess I could look some of these questions up but then again help learning faster is the reason I'm here. Here is an example. This vendor lists two different buffallo gold coin products. one is "gem proof condition: and they are said to be "gem uncirculated." No mention of a certification of mint state condition by either rating service. One coin has a fancy box, the other doesnt, but the price difference for the two products is considerable. one is 896 the other is 681. other than the fancy box I can see that one is "gem proof" whatever that means. Can you explain that, and is this price difference justified? http://www.mintproducts.com/index.as...ROD&ProdID=951 http://www.mintproducts.com/index.as...ROD&ProdID=943

aikitrader | 08-30-2006 11:35 AM
Re: what does "gem uncirculated" mean if not certified? Sure...the gem proof is the US Mint's proof edition. Proofs are usually struck by the die 2 times to create a mirror finish. The gem uncirculated coins are usually struck just one time by the die and have a "satin" type finish. Generally for bullion coins such as the Eagles Proofs are for collectors Uncirculated coins are for bullion For the Eagle program from the US Mint Proofs are sold directly by the US Mint - fyi The Buffalo Proof from the Mint is $800 Uncirculated Eagle coins are sold to approved distributors, who then sell it to the general public. For commerative coins from the US Mint Proofs and uncirculated are for collectors The uncirculated ones can have a higher premium in commeratives because of the lower mintages of them. Collectors like the look of the proofs because of the shiny mirrorred finish and so more of them are purchased.

tinman | 08-30-2006 11:39 AM
Re: what does "gem uncirculated" mean if not certified? http://www.lynncoins.com/proofcoin_article.htm To understand the difference between a proof and un-circulated coin, let's first answer the question, "What is an un-circulated coin?" Uncirculated means a coin has not had any wear, such as the wear a coin might experience when it is used in commerce. Handling a coin, as well as improperly storing a coin, can result in wear on the surface of the coin. This wear, even if very minor, will cause a coin to no longer grade uncirculated. Current accepted grading standards provide for a range of uncirculated grades, from the grade of MS-60 to MS-70. MS60 would be a lower grade (yet still) un-circulated coin with normal bag marks for that type of coin. Anything below MS-60 would not be considered uncirculated. MS70 would be the perfect "ideal" coin. Some coins are rare in grades MS65 to MS70, and even unheard of in MS70 grade. (The attribute "MS" stands for "mint state".) An uncirculated coin may show tarnish, toning, spotting, or discoloration and still remain in uncirculated condition. Experts recommend you "never clean a tarnished coin", because most cleaning will cause wear on a coin, and thus lower its grade (and often its value). What's a proof coin? A newly minted proof coin is also Un-circulated, however it is the way it is made that causes a difference in appearance and qualifies it as a "proof". To understand this, let's look at how coins are made. Coins are produced when two dies strike a blank piece of metal with tremendous force. One die is engraved with the front (obverse) design for the coin. The other die has the back (reverse) coin design on it. A proof coin is made with a specially polished and treated die! By treating the die in a special way, the coins it produces have a different appearance. Modern technology allows the high points on the coin design to be acid treated (on the die). The background (field) design of the coin die is polished, resulting in a mirror-like look on the coin it strikes. This gives the finished coin a frosted look (frosting) on the raise parts of the design, with a mirror like finish on the background. This contrasting finish is often called "cameo". (See picture above.) On some older coins a cameo appearance is quite rare. The attribute "CAM", when added to a coin's description, means cameo appearance. "DCAM" means deep cameo, and indicates the cameo appearance is strong and easy to observe. Proof coins are struck twice, or more! Not only are proofs made using specially treated dies, each coin is struck two or more times by the coin die. By striking it more than once the metal is forced into all the crevices of the die, thereby giving a very fine detail to the image on the coin. This fine detail does not appear on some non-proof coins.

RossL | 08-30-2006 01:02 PM
Re: what does "gem uncirculated" mean if not certified? the short answer, a reputable dealer would call it this way: uncirculated = ms60 bu, or brilliant uncirculated = ms63 gem bu = ms65 a disreputable dealer will inflate and call a ms-62 or ms63 a gem bu. This happens often enough that I don't believe anything said in an online or print ad.

AuNuggets | 08-31-2006 09:37 AM
Re: what does "gem uncirculated" mean if not certified? Before the Sheldon numeric grading system spread to every series of coin other than U.S. large cents (the series it was originally applied to in "Penny Whimsey"), and before coin dealers decided that they could break two or three grades down into 10 or 20 grades to make themselves "look smart" or, more likely, to further complicate things for the sake of personal profit, there were basically 3 uncirculated grades used in numismatic circles..... Brilliant Uncirculated Choice Brilliant Uncirculated Gem Brilliant Uncirculated From those simple terms, we injected "Superb" for the best of the best, and then finally to everything from MS-60 to MS-70, and even "sub-grades" of 63 1/2, 64 1/2, etc. The whole mint state grading system eventually became one big convoluted mess, and there is no real consistent "standard" between collectors, dealers, grading services, or even within any specific grading service, regardless of what they want you to believe. Seems these days we have an even tighter breakdown of grades by market makers of "low-end grade", "typical grade", or "high-end grade" within any single MS grade. But it always boils down to "personal opinion". Those of us who dealt in high-grade Morgan and Peace silver dollars in the 60s and 70s rarely see a "slabbed" and graded coin these days that holds up to the old standards......"grade inflation" they call it. Some of the crap we see these days in "MS-65" slabs would have done well to barely hit the "choice" level in years past. Back then, we used the term "commercial uncirculated" to cover coins that were "technically" uncirculated, but at the lowest end of the scale and not up to the quality most collectors would want in their collections. "Brilliant Uncirculated" was just that, a nice brilliant coin of "mint bag" quality, but not overly bag-marked. These averaged in quality up to today's MS-64 grades. "Choice Uncirculated" in those days meant a nice, bright, full luster coin with minimal contact marks, and alot of what we see today as MS-65 or MS-66 was then "Choice". When we called a big silver dollar "GEM" in those days, it was just that.......what the plastic factories today bestow as MS-67 or MS-68. But a true "SUPERB GEM" was something unusual and rather rare, even back then. This was the closest thing to perfect that was to be found in a business strike dollar, and closer to what the services call "MS-69" these days. "Uncirculated" meant just that, describing business strike coins that were produced with no special care or processes. "Proofs" were of a special minting and handling "PROCESS", not necessarily a different "GRADE".

Anty Ep | 08-31-2006 09:43 AM
Re: what does "gem uncirculated" mean if not certified? Fascinating and informative replies. My thanks to all of you for taking the time to discuss this topic.

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