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- - Numismatic Trivia............. (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=157627)

AuNuggets | 07-20-2007 03:54 AM
Numismatic Trivia............. What was the longest occuring coin design theme for a silver coin ? What was the longest occuring coin design theme for a gold coin ?

Krugerrand | 07-20-2007 05:08 AM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. I don't have even the slightest clue! I'll make a couple of WAGs and say the mercury dime and the Krug. :bear_w00t:

New2This | 07-20-2007 06:26 AM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. I will go with "round", or "circular" as the longest running design theme for both gold and silver "coins" world over throughout all history of humanity.:tongue_ma:

RossL | 07-20-2007 07:26 AM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. I would have to say the Thaler and the Sovereign, just off the top of my head. Of course, there may be some ancient coins that were made for hundreds of years...

Krugerrand | 07-20-2007 08:03 AM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. The Sovereign! Good choice. Certainly a more likely candidate than the Krug.

TomD | 07-20-2007 09:42 AM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. Is this limited to modern era coins or does it include coins from the Roman era?

Sparky | 07-20-2007 09:52 AM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. How about the Doubloon?

TomD | 07-20-2007 10:33 AM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky (Post 669466) How about the Doubloon?
Possibly, but thallers have been around since the 1700's.

Krugerrand | 07-20-2007 10:34 AM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. Here's another WAG for the silver coin: the Spanish dollar, or "piece of eight" or "eight real coin." There are my two bits. :haha:

naccarato | 07-20-2007 11:16 AM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. Off the top of my head I'm gonna guess the Gold "Bezant" from the Byzantine empire, the coin lasted 800 years.This is totally off the top of my head.

Anty Ep | 07-20-2007 11:40 AM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. Quote:
Originally Posted by naccarato (Post 669549) Off the top of my head I'm gonna guess the Gold "Bezant" from the Byzantine empire, the coin lasted 800 years.This is totally off the top of my head.
nice guess and the bezant was a famed export of byzantium, too in the end it wasnt enough that they had a lot of gold, though, was it?

naccarato | 07-20-2007 12:20 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 669582) nice guess and the bezant was a famed export of byzantium, too in the end it wasnt enough that they had a lot of gold, though, was it?
No it wasn't Anty, they lacked manpower in the end, and were taken over by a group of tougher Turkish people.

Anty Ep | 07-20-2007 12:25 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. Quote:
Originally Posted by naccarato (Post 669640) they lacked manpower in the end, and were taken over by a group of tougher Turkish people.
Tougher as a group, to be sure, and definitely more numerous; and elevated from their bestial tribal culture by Islam. But not so tough that they ever succeeded in completely genociding the Greeks or any of the other non-Turkic peoples under their dominion. But not for want of trying. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...nople-1876.jpg

Anty Ep | 07-20-2007 12:27 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. heres what they look like http://www.the-privateer.com/coins/bezant.jpg

Anty Ep | 07-20-2007 12:34 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. that pic is from http://www.the-privateer.com/goldcoin.html Quote:
690 AD: A "Bezant", minted in the East Roman (or Byzantine) Empire. The Bezant remained pure and unadulterated for almost 800 years, making it the longest lasting example of sound money in history. This particular coin is reputed to be the first to portray Christ.
Greeks in ancient Lydia, in Anatolia, invented coin-- King Croesus is credited with it usually I believe.

AuNuggets | 07-20-2007 05:24 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. naccarato hit the nail on the head for gold, the Gold "Bezant" or "Solidus" as it was more commonly called. It began circulation around 309-310 under Constantine The First as a replacement coin for the Roman aureus and lasted well into the tenth century A.D., for a monetary life span of over 700 years. Okay, any guesses on silver ? This entails everything since the creation of coinage by the ancient Ionians and Lydians circa 650 B.C. (many years before the time of Croesus by the way - but he DID issue the first pure gold and silver coins as opposed to earlier electrum coins). This silver "longevity" counterpart happens to be one of my favorite coins of all time. I've mentioned it several times here on the forum. How good is your memory ? :tongue_ma:

Krugerrand | 07-20-2007 06:46 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. Oooh, I remember! I had to go look up the exact names, and I don't know which one you like more, so I'll guess that it's a tie between the Greek "Owls of Athens" tetradrachms and the Spanish silver cobs. :bear_w00t:

AuNuggets | 07-20-2007 07:01 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. 1 Attachment(s) BINGO Sir Krugerrand !! The "Owls of Athens" or Athenian tetradrachm it is. These kept the same primary theme of Athena on the obverse and the Owl on the reverse for well over 400 years, from the early archaic issues to the later "new style" coins. My favorite silver coin by far are the "Standardized Classic Owls" of the 454-415 period. There were lots of them made, but finding really exceptional examples is not nearly as easy as you might think. Here is some graphics work I just finished up for a soon to be published collectors book on these specific coins. The "Owl" coin shown is one of the better stylized examples that you are likely to encounter and shows an awesome strike and centering of the Owl side especially, just a super nice example. .

RossL | 07-20-2007 07:51 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets (Post 670071) <img src=http://goldismoney.info/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30965&stc=1&thumb=1&d= 1184972023">
That's cool. I knew the answer probably would be ancient coins... but I'm not a student of the ancient numismatics. :no_ma:

Krugerrand | 07-20-2007 08:09 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. :ARMS1: I must say, those Owls are very cool. The face on the obverse seems to stick out half an inch! And that owl design on the reverse is sweet; love the huge eyes. Those coins are over 2000 years old... :bear_w00t: I'm trying to picture ancient Greeks making these things. Sure get a feel for history looking at those pics. What does the AOE stand for?

AuNuggets | 07-20-2007 08:32 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. A O E are actually the first three Greek letters of Athens, or "A TH E". The crescent represents the waning moon present in the skies at the time of Athens' triumph over the Persians in the Battle of Marathon circa 490 B.C., and of course the olive branch represents "peace" as well as victory when shown in wreath form. These coins were the first form of currency actually used in international trade on a regular basis. Teddy Roosevelt carried one around as a pocket piece during his Presidency. These coins also present an enigma of sorts in that the "heads" side is actually the reverse while the "tails" side (literally speaking where the Owl is concerned...this coin is where the term "heads or tails" originated... :) ) is actually the FRONT of the coin. This carries over from the way these coins were minted, with the head design being cut into an anvil base while the owl design was cut into the striking die that was hammered into the red hot metal "lump" to form the coin. In this hot state, the metal flowed much easier into the forming dies but also accounts for the high percentage of "split" planchets in these coins.

Anty Ep | 07-20-2007 08:36 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. damn those greeks had style!~

AlwaysWrite | 07-20-2007 09:03 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. AuNuggets - the coin in your pic is VERY cool. I started looking them up - most have deep cuts (apparently from testing them), and cost $400 and up for ones not nearly as nice as the one in your pic. Do you happen to own that coin??? Any suggestions on finding a nice eye-clean coin at a decent price, or are they just all very expensive?

AuNuggets | 07-20-2007 09:43 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. 2 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysWrite (Post 670205) . Do you happen to own that coin??? .
I do now ! :s9: Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysWrite (Post 670205) . Any suggestions on finding a nice eye-clean coin at a decent price, or are they just all very expensive? .
In the past ten years or so, with so many restrictions being implemented on imports and exports of "national treasures" and antiquities in so many countries, the market has quadrupled AND MORE on quality pieces. Nice VF "Owls" with good style, decent strikes, and good metal are bringing $1500-$2500 apiece, with XF examples really through the roof. I've seen some really exceptional XF coins selling for upward of $7500 when just a few years ago, the same coins could be had for a thousand to 1200 dollars. Import/Export restrictions have really put a squeeze on quality Greek ancients here in the states. Even the big national retailers and auction houses seem to be getting less and less to offer. My suggestion would be to check several major online ancient coin dealers (Google "Athens Tetradrachm" or "Ancient Greek Coins" or PM me and I will pass along some links) and look for a nice strong VF grade, probably the best value for the money in these particular coins. I think you'll find maybe one really nice piece for every couple of hundred less than desirable examples, but like always "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". You can look at the auction archives (research) at the CNG site and look at hundreds of photos of coins that have been previously auctioned to get a good idea of what sells in the high, medium, and lower dollar ranges. Search "Attica Athens" on their site. I've bought many nice circulated "Owls" over the years that (to me) were much more desirable than some of the highest grades, just due to the strike and overall style of the individual piece. Since each of these coins was individually minted by hand using hand engraved dies and normal variations in the quality of the silver employed, there is quite a range of variation from one coin to the next, although they all have the same general "theme" of design. Some stylizations are much better than others, some strikes more desirable than others, variations in toning, and so on. As you say, there are alot of "Owls" out there with test cuts, banker marks, cracks, scratches, over zealous cleaning, corrosion, oxide verdigris, or other problems that most serious collectors will tend to avoid. But generally, those "special" pieces will just jump out at you when you see them mixed in amongst all of the less desirable coins. .

Anty Ep | 07-20-2007 09:48 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. i just noticed some dude on ebay selling lots of uncleaned greek and roman coins. brags that there have been silver and gold finds in his lots. evidently a lot of people are selling them in the range of 2-6 usd each. per coin that is. prolly 98% or more bronzes thats all http://search.ebay.com/search/search...trypage=search

AuNuggets | 07-20-2007 10:01 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. The vast majority of those "uncleaned ancient coin" offerings are total crap. Don't waste your money. If you are interested in ancients, you're much better off buying a nice single coin instead of a bunch of corroded junk with zero collector value or interest. Don't believe the "gold and silver found in my lots" hype either. You can find nice Roman silver denarius coins for under a hundred bucks with full design details, or bronzes of different eras for much less. Earlier Greek coins are usually more expensive, but there are still some decent buys out there if you just look for them. Ebay is a good place to browse and get an idea of what is available and the going price range.

Baldwin | 07-21-2007 02:08 AM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets (Post 670243) The vast majority of those "uncleaned ancient coin" offerings are total crap. Don't waste your money. If you are interested in ancients, you're much better off buying a nice single coin instead of a bunch of corroded junk with zero collector value or interest. Don't believe the "gold and silver found in my lots" hype either. You can find nice Roman silver denarius coins for under a hundred bucks with full design details, or bronzes of different eras for much less. Earlier Greek coins are usually more expensive, but there are still some decent buys out there if you just look for them. Ebay is a good place to browse and get an idea of what is available and the going price range.
Right, you're better off spending $400 for an ancient gold coin on ebay (byzantine gold is cheap compared to Roman gold...mostly because no one makes movies about the Byzantines) than digging through piles of uncleaned coins for a good one. One honest person on ebay says a gold coin comes up in 1 in 5000 uncleaned coins. He describes silver. I bought 20 uncleaned coins. Most were junk, but I did get about 4 good ones.

AlwaysWrite | 07-21-2007 03:58 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets (Post 670222) I do now ! :s9: In the past ten years or so, with so many restrictions being implemented on imports and exports of "national treasures" and antiquities in so many countries, the market has quadrupled AND MORE on quality pieces. Nice VF "Owls" with good style, decent strikes, and good metal are bringing $1500-$2500 apiece, with XF examples really through the roof. I've seen some really exceptional XF coins selling for upward of $7500 when just a few years ago, the same coins could be had for a thousand to 1200 dollars. Import/Export restrictions have really put a squeeze on quality Greek ancients here in the states. Even the big national retailers and auction houses seem to be getting less and less to offer. My suggestion would be to check several major online ancient coin dealers (Google "Athens Tetradrachm" or "Ancient Greek Coins" or PM me and I will pass along some links) and look for a nice strong VF grade, probably the best value for the money in these particular coins. I think you'll find maybe one really nice piece for every couple of hundred less than desirable examples, but like always "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". You can look at the auction archives (research) at the CNG site and look at hundreds of photos of coins that have been previously auctioned to get a good idea of what sells in the high, medium, and lower dollar ranges. Search "Attica Athens" on their site. I've bought many nice circulated "Owls" over the years that (to me) were much more desirable than some of the highest grades, just due to the strike and overall style of the individual piece. Since each of these coins was individually minted by hand using hand engraved dies and normal variations in the quality of the silver employed, there is quite a range of variation from one coin to the next, although they all have the same general "theme" of design. Some stylizations are much better than others, some strikes more desirable than others, variations in toning, and so on. As you say, there are alot of "Owls" out there with test cuts, banker marks, cracks, scratches, over zealous cleaning, corrosion, oxide verdigris, or other problems that most serious collectors will tend to avoid. But generally, those "special" pieces will just jump out at you when you see them mixed in amongst all of the less desirable coins. .
Congrats - that's really a very nice coin you have. And thanks for the detailed response. Do you own the coins in the other photos too? Most of the ones in the first pic are nice, what I would consider "eye-clean" and that I would like. I'd like to pick one up just to have one to enjoy and show to people, but I can't justify $1500+. Too bad they've shot up so much in price - out of the price range I'm willing to pay now, it seems. Speaking of Roman coins, I picked up what I think is a very nice, eye-clean silver antoninianus. I know they're quite common, but that doesn't bother me. It's a very nice, 1800-year-old coin, and I got it for $35 (from Forum Ancient Coins online).

AuNuggets | 07-21-2007 05:12 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysWrite (Post 670715) Congrats - that's really a very nice coin you have. And thanks for the detailed response. Do you own the coins in the other photos too? Most of the ones in the first pic are nice, what I would consider "eye-clean" and that I would like. I'd like to pick one up just to have one to enjoy and show to people, but I can't justify $1500+. Too bad they've shot up so much in price - out of the price range I'm willing to pay now, it seems. Speaking of Roman coins, I picked up what I think is a very nice, eye-clean silver antoninianus. I know they're quite common, but that doesn't bother me. It's a very nice, 1800-year-old coin, and I got it for $35 (from Forum Ancient Coins online).
I own or have owned several of the coins in the photos above. Others are pieces I have cataloged from other collections, auctions, price lists, etc. Most of those are just nice examples of the type with good detail and no damage or other problems. The top photo is B&W while the lower one is in color. The coins look somewhat different in real color, even moreso when you have them in your hand. Are they "expensive" ? Well, yes and no, depending on how you look at it. I get alot more enjoyment and satisfaction out of holding and studying a 2400 year old classical Greek coin under a good magnifying glass than I ever would out of looking at a couple of cookie-cutter Krugerrands over and over, or just letting them sit in the safe deposit box. Numismatics is completely removed from simple bullion investing, and it also depends on your level of passion for the coins you "collect" as opposed to the bullion you "invest in". These coins get me involved in the history of the times, people, and places in ancient history beyond just the little lumps of metal involved. There are enough of them to make their collecting an attainable goal, but few enough of the really nice ones that also make it a challenge. And considering how they were made, you could buy a hundred of them and never find two struck from the same dies. Lots of die characteristic study to consider for those who really get down to the nitty-gritty, and a certain "personality" in each of the die cutter's renditions of the owl and Athena. Some die cutters were sloppy, others were perfectionists....... and it shows in the details of their individual work. The nice one used for the cover photo is one of the top two or three coins in my entire collection of Athenian tetradrachms now, and probably my favorite of them all. The owl side of that coin is absolutely the best of the best as far as standard issues of the 454-415 period. The stylization of the owl, equal border and centering, sharp strike, good metal with no splits, and nearly complete reverse detail would be hard to beat on that one. That's what they call a "classic classical"..... :wink: .

Krugerrand | 07-21-2007 05:56 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. How big would you say that coin is, roughly? Is it comparable to any modern bullion coin in diameter? And how about thickness... seems like it might be a centimeter thick! :bear_w00t:

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AuNuggets | 07-21-2007 07:25 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. Quote:
Originally Posted by Krugerrand (Post 670795) How big would you say that coin is, roughly? Is it comparable to any modern bullion coin in diameter? And how about thickness... seems like it might be a centimeter thick! :bear_w00t:
Slightly larger in diameter than a U.S. quarter, and between 3 and 4 times as thick......varies according to the striking pressure of the hand-hammered dies. Since there were no collars employed in the striking process, the metal would "run out" (we use the word "broadstrike" today) to a greater degree depending on the force of the die strike and the temperature/softness of the metal. The Athenian Standard for these was 17.2 grams in weight, a little over a half ounce of silver, but most in that date range (454-415 B.C.) in VF/XF grades will normally run between 17.1 and 17.3 grams very consistently. An accurate weight is one of the keys to authenticating these coins just like we do modern coinage.

TomD | 07-21-2007 08:20 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. Quote:
Originally Posted by AuNuggets (Post 670769) I get alot more enjoyment and satisfaction out of holding and studying a 2400 year old classical Greek coin under a good magnifying glass than I ever would out of looking at a couple of cookie-cutter Krugerrands over and over, or just letting them sit in the safe deposit box
Absolutely I agree, but the motivation is totally different. There is collecting and there is investing. For collecting, a Gold Byzantine coin is really cool and for investing a 400 ounce gold Good Delivery bar is pretty damn cool too. I have a lot of Krugerrands, Maples, and Eagles, but they represent stored value, the value of raw gold. The value of a 2400-year-old-coin is totally different, it is based on the idea of antiquity,

AuNuggets | 07-21-2007 09:25 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. 1 Attachment(s) Here's another nice one that Freeman and Sear just sold. I saw it a couple of days too late......:rant: Great owl !! And I agree Tom.......there is a totally different motivation to collecting vs. investing, though you can make some good money in numismatics over time if you pick "the right stuff". I know if I had concentrated on some of these nicer Athenian "Owls" 10 or 15 years ago, they would have wiped the floor with gold and silver as far as (dollar) appreciation goes. In that regard, they are much like Krugerrands........ I just can't have "too many" of either ! LOL .

AuNuggets | 07-27-2007 04:03 AM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. 1 Attachment(s) And a few more gems. I never get tired of looking at these things........ .

Krugerrand | 07-27-2007 08:01 PM
Re: Numismatic Trivia............. Nice! The more I look at these pics, the more I like them. :applause_

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