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- - Some physical storage questions (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=9011)

Kinkakuji | 03-21-2004 12:12 AM
Some physical storage questions Hi, I'm new here and I'm looking for some advice. My current job requires me to relocate internationally every few years. This adds a few complications to my plans to invest a part of my savings in physical hard assets. I've pretty much given up on investing significantly in silver. From lurking here for a while, I know a lot of you guys are very bullish on silver, and recommend buying $1000 bags of 90% coins. I agree with many of the arguments presented for this type of investment, but it just isn't practical for me. 55lb bags of coins just don't travel well -- much too heavy for including in your luggage, and not too easy to explain to customs agents. Surface shipping them with the rest of my household goods is also not good because of the likelihood of theft. The only real option for silver is to leave it in a permanent, secure vault in the US (big safe deposit box, maybe?) or perhaps do the Perth Mint certificate program. But really, right now I've decided to just stick to gold because it is so much more compact and easy to travel with. It's quite easy to just throw a handful of coins into my carry-on baggage and that's that. My question is about storage suggestions when I'm overseas. I'm sometimes hesitant to use local banks' safe-deposit boxes or the like because many countries' banks are simply not as trustworthy as ours -- and that's saying something considering the fact that US banks were party to the confiscation of everybody's gold not so long ago. But keeping it all in my apartment overseas doesn't seem terribly wise either, with the small but significant risk of burglary/theft. Many of you guys seem to own houses, where it's easy enough for you to install a heavy safe in the basement, or bury stuff in the backyard. I don't have these luxuries. Any suggestions for how I could best store my physical gold as safely as possible while living and working overseas? I'm afraid my family members in the US are not reliable enough to help me with this. No matter how much I explained my intentions to them, and how much I explained the nature of these investments, I'm convinced that within a year or two I'd get a phone call where they proudly tell me how they rolled up all those silly old quarters of mine and deposited them in my bank account and would I believe it, but there was a THOUSAND dollars in that bag! Or perhaps that my step-brother borrowed some of them for doing laundry but he'd be sure to pay me back. I'm sure they would also find ways of screwing up with gold, too. Thanks! I appreciate any advice you can give me.

Halophyte | 03-21-2004 01:03 AM
Re: Some physical storage questions Buy the silver; find a place to burry it. I suggest four-inch diameter schedule 40 PVC pipe, cut and glue an end cap at bottom end. Glue an adapter fitting to allow a threaded end cap on the other end (burry pointing up). Drop a pouch of silicon gel in each tube to absorb moisture. Use a posthole power auger to dig the burry holes, set the tube and earth cover when filled. IAW the Patriot Act - This advice is to prevent theft of valuables and does not endorse evasion of legal financial obligations to government entities or assist in financing terrorism. :bandit: .

Joejeweler | 03-21-2004 05:17 AM
Re: Some physical storage questions I believe Halophyte would also recommend wherever you might bury it be land not likely to be dug around or on someone else's private land! Probably best in a heavily wooded federal or state designated forever wild land. The heavily wooded part will keep most metal detector types out and the forever wild designantion keeps builders from possibly digging it up. Just be sure to make an accurate, detailed map so YOU can find it again! By the way, if you don't feel like digging and still want some exposure to silver, you might set up a "pool" account at www.kitco.com Though any investment in precious metals where you don't take actual delivery would not be recommended by most on this site, it wouldn't bother me for someone in your situation of traveling for long periods of time to far off parts. There is no charge to set up the account, no storage fees, and minimal buy/sell spreads. Currently, at $7.53 silver, kitco will sell you silver at $7.65 and buy it back at $7.43.........which is pretty darn good! (actually about the lowest spread of ANY silver investment i've found.......and there other pool accounts are good that way also). For gold, i'll keep physical on hand, however......as the storage bulk problem is not near as bad as with silver in large amounts! Though still held by a third party, and therefore not having absolute "in hand" safety if the world goes to hell........it's still an option and the size and reputation of a company like kitco means alot! Still carry your gold with you......but silver will probably do much better and if this is the only way to get you invested.......worth the slight risk IMO. About as safe in my mind as buying silver stocks and such........where you don't actually have physical metal in hand either, though you do get leverage of course.

Tn...Andy | 03-21-2004 09:00 AM
Re: Some physical storage questions The solution is in your own words "My current job". This may or may not fit your situation, if it doesn't, just ignore it, I'll take no offense and hope you don't either .....but here goes anyway..... I participate in some other forums that are more survialistic in nature in a post SHTF situation. I hear the same sorta things there..." I'd like to have a food/water storage program ( which to ME is FAR more important and first priority over this metal playing stuff ) BUT I can't because I live in an apartment" or "Yes, I think the cities are gonna burn when the welfare checks stop, but WHAT can I do......that's where my job is ?"...... And my answer is: Unless there is a piano chained to your leg preventing you from moving, or an "S" branded on your cheek indicating your employer owns you, AND you really, really, really believe that those other things ( the food, the location, whatever) really ARE important, then MAKE THE DADGUM CHANGE, brother. So, maybe, you need to consider the implication of being at the mercy of others in an apartment in another country.......and I say that NOT just for metal storage.....and out of concern for your stomach as well as your wallet !

HistoryStudent | 03-21-2004 10:35 AM
Re: Some physical storage questions Central Fund of Canada on the SM is "CEF" trading symbol. All they hold is gold and silver at a 50 to 1 ratio. The premium is high however around 10 to 15% - and right now they are hitting new highs in the stock price. DYODD. Like the PVC advise above. Might work well on a slope if you have that type of home and land.

kunery | 03-21-2004 10:58 AM
Re: Some physical storage questions Another option: Pick 2-3 reasonably stable countries where a U.S. citizen is permitted to own land and which would likely be accessible to you in the future -- perhaps the U.S., Canada, Australia, others...? Then find a rural spot in each, not too far from a major airport you could fly into, but as "low-rent" and cheap an area as possible. Buy a half-acre or even quarter-acre lot "to put a camping trailer on for vacation use." If you can get a used, junk trailer cheap enough, fine, actually put one there. Be sure to put sufficient funds in a local bank account set up to automatically pay the taxes on the (again: "cheap") property. Once you have a junk camping trailer or some other sort of junky vacation shack on your property (to serve as an excuse for having pipes and other metal objects buried there, thwarting metal detectors) bury your stash of metals on your land. (I'd lean toward 90% junk silver, plus any 1-0z gold Kruggerands you can afford, but whatever). Any theft or vandalism to the junk camper or cabin is no loss. There should be sufficient "reasonably-explainable" buried pipes and other metal to make it impossible to find your buried coins with a metal detector. You have every legal right to access your own "vacation property" and don't risk storing your valuables on someone else's land. AND, it might be very nice to have some wealth stored in SEVERAL accessible countries, in the event you might someday want to Get Out Of Dodge. There's pretty cheap "junk lots" for sale not terribly far from many major airports -- even bicycle-range, if absolute worst came to absolute worst. You might find some by cruising around in the course of your travels and picking up copies of local, small-town newspapers for ads, where the local realtors will also be advertising of course. Good luck. Your work-related "drawbacks" or "handicaps" might be turned to advantages if you can get the above ideas to work.

Kinkakuji | 03-21-2004 12:36 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions I appreciate all the varied and interesting advice you guys have given me so far. You've given me some good ideas. I'm definitely thinking about buying a little plot of land somewhere that could serve the dual purpose of vacation getaway and possible escape location if the SHTF as you guys like to say. But really, I guess I'm not nearly as much of a survivalist as some of you all, especially Tn...Andy (don't worry I didn't take any offence by your suggestion; I hope you don't take offence at my not following it). I don't really believe the most extreme SHTF scenarios are likely -- even in Argentina's crisis of a couple years ago, people didn't flee to the hills, living off of hidden food storage, carrying on transactions only in gold and silver coins. If I really believed with any certainty that the world was going to heck in a handbasket in the very near future, I wouldn't hesitate long to quit my job, sell everything, buy a plot of land out in the woods, stock up on everything I'd need to survive for a few years, invest the balance of my savings in 90% silver and K-Rands, bury them around my property, and then wait for doomsday. But I'm far from certain that the worst case scenarios people imagine will come to pass. In fact, I think it highly unlikely -- not impossible, but highly unlikely. Instead, I think of a 5-10% allocation of my savings to PM as more of a prudent insurance policy against this very unlikely outcome, or the somewhat more likely reemergence of serious inflation. Insurance policies are for things you don't think are likely, but which you would be devestated if they actually did happen. You don't expect your house to burn down in the next few months, but you still pay the premiums on your homeowner's insurance to save your butt in the highly unlikely event that it does. If you actually knew the house were going to burn down, you'd get your stuff out and move somewhere else now before it happens. I'm still in my twenties and have (I hope) many productive years ahead of me if I stick with my current career, during which time I can ensure a long and secure future for myself and my (future) family by keeping out of debt and saving diligently -- including a constant allocation to hard assets. Throwing it all away and packing up for a trailer in the woods now out of fear of an unlikely, but dreadful collapse of society just doesn't make sense to me right now. I don't want to start an argument about the likelihood of any such doomsday scenario coming to pass. I respect the opinions of those who do believe that, and I appreciate the warning they give to the rest of us to prepare for that outcome, however unlikely we think it may be. I'm just looking for advice on how best to manage my little "insurance policy" under my unique circumstances. Any advice out there on good storage ideas for the gold I bring with me overseas (ignoring for now considerations of burying stuff in the woods here in the states). Assuming the S really does HTF, I'd want to have enough gold to survive wherever I happened to be at the time, and hopefully enough to get back home (to that trailer with the PVC pipes full of 90% buried in the woods, if I decide to go that route). I'll probably end up putting at least some of it in a local bank, but what are some good ideas for protecting the rest when I'm living in an apartment? Thanks again for all your help and advice. This is a great forum.

lhslancers | 03-21-2004 12:51 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions So you're 90% long sm's and looking to diversify into pm's via 10% allocation? You got it backwards. That was last decade.

Joejeweler | 03-21-2004 01:17 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions Kinkakuji.........some here will use a length of 2 1/2 inch PVC pipe with a sealed cap on one end, and a screw in "clean out" conection on the other end for storage of both Krugerrands and American Eagle gold coins. The tubes they come in fit really well in these, and i've made some to hold exactly 100 coins, or 5 tubes. (the Krugs come in various length tubes, unlike the Eagles). These tubes can be placed in a hollowed out area in a wall(covered with panneling or covered with a bookcase), behind a baseboard, or stuck underneath the kitchen sink within the wall appearing as a clean out tube. (just be sure to remove it if you call a plumber for a real plumbing problem!). :D If you have a dirt basement where you move bury a tube or two there, but only when you know you're alone! However, i wouldn't travel with these tubes already made up......as to a security guy it "might" appear to look like a bomb! :Sorry:

Tn...Andy | 03-21-2004 02:52 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinkakuji I appreciate all the varied and interesting advice you guys have given me so far. You've given me some good ideas. I'm definitely thinking about buying a little plot of land somewhere that could serve the dual purpose of vacation getaway and possible escape location if the SHTF as you guys like to say. But really, I guess I'm not nearly as much of a survivalist as some of you all, especially Tn...Andy (don't worry I didn't take any offence by your suggestion; I hope you don't take offence at my not following it). I don't really believe the most extreme SHTF scenarios are likely -- even in Argentina's crisis of a couple years ago, people didn't flee to the hills, living off of hidden food storage, carrying on transactions only in gold and silver coins......... .
No offence taken.....was merely offering my advice......it's worth what you pay for it :wink: For the record, I'm not hiding in the woods....I live there, and quite well I might add :D ......but it's not for everbody, and thank God ....or there'd be a LOT less woods.....ahahahaaaaa...... At a minimum, I would purchase some area for a "retreat", store the bulk of your metals there in any one of a number of creative ways, and spend the rest of life just being aware that the world may NOT always be as it is now. Same reason you would buy any insurance. You'll be ahead of 99% of the folks that would die off if the world does just happen to go to crap.

Maple Leaf Steve | 03-23-2004 02:07 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions First of all I don't like the idea of owning more silver than gold. For two reasons... 1.) Too much silver will bog you down. Then you have to worry about where to hide it. Then you run into transport problems. 2.) One guy in this country named Warren Buffett already owns one billion dollars worth of silver. If he ever decides to unload that stuff back into the market then the price of silver is going to drop like a lead balloon! Don't get me wrong though... I like silver! It will be a great thing to have when the SHTF. Still though... Gold is and will always be KING! MLS

Tn...Andy | 03-23-2004 06:52 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions IF Buffet still has his silver ( and I've heard he may have already "leased" it out ), I'd sure like for him to dump it......that would take care of the shortage for maybe one year or so, run the price down for a while so I could buy more, and I'd ultimately make a lot more off the deal. Gold is nice.....lot's of history......but most of it is still around. Silver is gone.....even Buffet's is a drop in the bucket over the long haul. I bought a pound of silver solder sticks today for some copper pipe work. 30 FRNs for a one pound tube.......wonder what it will be in 2-3 years ? And if you're soldering AC lines, that's ALL that will work. Right now, it takes maybe 5-6 bucks worth for a 4000 buck heat pump system.......IF the stuff goes to 200 bucks for a tube, it will add 30-40 bucks to a system.....think that will stop anybody from buying a heat pump ?

hoarder | 03-23-2004 07:23 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions I too doubt Buffet still has any physical silver. Recently saw a photgraph of Buffet, Shwartzenegger and Rothschild together. Buffet is a member of the CFR. He's an insider. He would not get by with pissing off the international bankers. I hope I'm wrong. I hope he has a lot of silver to dump on the market and drive down the POS. I have 2 properties under contract to sell and I could sure use a pullback.

HistoryStudent | 04-02-2004 10:22 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder I too doubt Buffet still has any physical silver. Recently saw a photgraph of Buffet, Shwartzenegger and Rothschild together. Buffet is a member of the CFR. He's an insider. He would not get by with pissing off the international bankers. I hope I'm wrong. I hope he has a lot of silver to dump on the market and drive down the POS. I have 2 properties under contract to sell and I could sure use a pullback.
That's what Ted Butler been saying recently. Proabably was a deal between the government bailing his insurance company out on the Twin Towers super policy and him giving them the silver cause they are all out. Tit for tat.

rural_ghetto | 04-05-2004 06:21 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions I think the post about buying some land in a American-friendly country and burying it was a great idea. However, If you don't want to do that for whatever reason, it is still pretty simple to hide it in your apartment. This thread had some interesting ideas about hiding it inside doors, lamps, and couch legs: http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...ding+furniture And in that thread Bobcat posted a link to this site which may be of interest: http://www.hiddensafes.com/

PONCE | 04-05-2004 07:25 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions Quote:
Originally Posted by rural_ghetto I think the post about buying some land in a American-friendly country and burying it was a great idea. However, If you don't want to do that for whatever reason, it is still pretty simple to hide it in your apartment. This thread had some interesting ideas about hiding it inside doors, lamps, and couch legs: http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...ding+furniture And in that thread Bobcat posted a link to this site which may be of interest: http://www.hiddensafes.com/
If you can hide your silver in a door or window and so on then it means that you don't have that much, as you know silver is heavy, now then, if you do have a lot then is better to make a hole in one of your walls then place the silver there, cover the hole and paint,,,,,,, remember now, you are buying silver for long term storage and not for one or two weeks. At first I did have my silver like I described above but now is way to much and I have it elsewhere. If you have a lot (minimum of 10,000 OZ) then buried in a deep hole in PVC pipes, cover the hole with 12 inches of dirt, make it look like a burn hole by placing trash and a lot of empty cans there make a fire and then recover the hole to the top. If someone goes over it with a metal detector all they will find is the burn trash and wont go no deeper,,,,,,,,,,,, Amen.

HistoryStudent | 04-05-2004 10:26 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leaf Steve First of all I don't like the idea of owning more silver than gold. For two reasons... 1.) Too much silver will bog you down. Then you have to worry about where to hide it. Then you run into transport problems. 2.) One guy in this country named Warren Buffett already owns one billion dollars worth of silver. If he ever decides to unload that stuff back into the market then the price of silver is going to drop like a lead balloon! Don't get me wrong though... I like silver! It will be a great thing to have when the SHTF. Still though... Gold is and will always be KING! MLS
Ted Butler figures (my paraphase only) he just holds the lease papers on it because of all the 20 million ounce shipments to the COMEX: and that Trade towers his causality insurance company in Bershire Hathaway had to cover was with a paper backing from the FED - I don't know. But it sure makes NUMBERS sense. We will see because the silver market should come unglued soon and when the ratio falls to say 20 to one you get 3 ounces of gold free with every 80 traded - for your smaller stuff. (assuming an 80 to 1 ratio back a few months ago)

clark kent | 04-22-2004 09:40 AM
Re: Some physical storage questions This thread seems to only address half of the subject. My concern [should things get so bad] has been that the government agencies can find out that I have purchased bullion, and not sold it on. It must be easy for them to track purchases and sales in this computer age. Every transaction on ebay, for example, is recorded and available to a surprisingly open range of viewers. Apart from buying with cash at a coin shop, I can't see an easy alternative. If the tax man comes and looks through your books, he'd notice a lot of cash leaking out, unless carefully managed over a long period. Buying some land abroad and hiding it there - I like. But if you're back in your old country surely they'd get you for it. I've got a lot of silver at Perth Mint [I live in England]. Maybe I could go there, take physical, drive it to the bush and bury it AND stay in that country. Perhaps that would work... But what if you don't want to emigrate [even if another country would take you in an economic depression..] ? I suppose you could say you hid it somewhere, but since you started to get alzheimer's disease [you'd need a friendly doctor to fake a report], you forgot where you hid it. You'd probably still 'owe' the government for its equivalent . Anyone dreamt up a good plan ??

Orson | 04-22-2004 09:52 AM
Re: Some physical storage questions As far as purchase records, that is also a concern that I had. It was one reason that I made my first purchase from Certified Mint. They use no computers. They put your name/address on a notecard and staple it to the invoice. After the goods are delivered, they detach the card from the invoice and throw out the card. You can read about it on their web site. I can vouch for the fact that the person takes forever to write down your name/address (versus punching your info into a computer) and they don't remember you when you return as a customer. Their prices aren't as good as AJPM or Tulving, but they will sell in extremely small or extremely large quantities.

shades2 | 04-22-2004 10:20 AM
Re: Some physical storage questions Quote:
Originally Posted by clark kent This thread seems to only address half of the subject. My concern [should things get so bad] has been that the government agencies can find out that I have purchased bullion, and not sold it on. It must be easy for them to track purchases and sales in this computer age. Every transaction on ebay, for example, is recorded and available to a surprisingly open range of viewers. Apart from buying with cash at a coin shop, I can't see an easy alternative. If the tax man comes and looks through your books, he'd notice a lot of cash leaking out, unless carefully managed over a long period. Buying some land abroad and hiding it there - I like. But if you're back in your old country surely they'd get you for it. I've got a lot of silver at Perth Mint [I live in England]. Maybe I could go there, take physical, drive it to the bush and bury it AND stay in that country. Perhaps that would work... But what if you don't want to emigrate [even if another country would take you in an economic depression..] ? I suppose you could say you hid it somewhere, but since you started to get alzheimer's disease [you'd need a friendly doctor to fake a report], you forgot where you hid it. You'd probably still 'owe' the government for its equivalent . Anyone dreamt up a good plan ??
Only problem with that idea is the bush tends to get disturbed quite a bit nowadays with people wandering about and development taking place. Metal detecting is also a good past-time here in Australia, but mainly in the desert areas. So, go on vacation.... :) If you go wayyy (800 km) out into the desert with your stash in some isolated spot, use a lever to move a large rock (make sure it is Crown land). Hide it under there. Use a GPS and a map and take multiple (accurate) bearings on the location, so you can find it no matter what. Don't let anyone see what you're up to, so take binoculars, and perhaps do this using a canvas tent to hide what you're up to. Once you're done, scatter a large volume of rusty crud like nails and wire around the place and nearby. This will be enough to deter most people with a detector, as nothing is more annoying than searching and finding this crap when looking for gold. More than one location is the way to go. Why lose your whole stash in one unfortunate incident? Getting to it in a hurry is the only embuggarance. A 14 hour flight on a plane, and a drive to the desert and back is in store if you need to unload in a hurry.

shades2 | 04-22-2004 10:23 AM
Re: Some physical storage questions Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson As far as purchase records, that is also a concern that I had. It was one reason that I made my first purchase from Certified Mint. They use no computers. They put your name/address on a notecard and staple it to the invoice. After the goods are delivered, they detach the card from the invoice and throw out the card. You can read about it on their web site. I can vouch for the fact that the person takes forever to write down your name/address (versus punching your info into a computer) and they don't remember you when you return as a customer. Their prices aren't as good as AJPM or Tulving, but they will sell in extremely small or extremely large quantities.
Where I bought I paid cash, and they didn't take down a single thing! :D The only issue is if I sell there, then they take down an address and a name. I don't intend to sell there, so that's OK.

edjerider | 04-22-2004 07:08 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions If your silver is in the perth mint you don't need a plan, it's as good as sold for you if they want it. If you ever get it out then a plan is easy to formulate. Foe example, for a kilo or two I'll personally clock you on the head, leave a good lump and some blood [which you deserve anyway for leaving your silver in exchange for a paper promise] and you tell the cops you were ROBBED!!! As for living here? It's a rough life in Australia! Have you ever fought a crock bare handed, do you know how to herd kangaroos?

clark kent | 04-23-2004 03:52 AM
Re: Some physical storage questions I can drink a whole tinny [Fosters] without falling over. :getdown:

Dissipate | 04-24-2004 03:10 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions I'm going to go against the grain here and suggest you open an account at goldmoney and deposit your money there. Your account is 100% backed by gold at all times, and you can access your account anywhere in the world where you can connect to the Internet. This will enable you to invest in gold and at the same time do away with all the hassles of carrying it around. Furthermore, you can liquidate your account at the current spot price at any time with the funds being deposited directly into your bank account. Also, if you wish you can send any portion of your goldmoney account to anyone else who has an account with goldmoney anywhere in the world.

lhslancers | 04-24-2004 07:39 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions Assuming you can access the internet or use the phone.

Dissipate | 04-24-2004 08:25 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions Quote:
Originally Posted by lhslancers Assuming you can access the internet or use the phone.
What's your point? It's better to be able to access your account in many locations than just one physical location. If the spot price of gold skyrockets you just need to get to one of millions of locations that have Internet access and sell off your goldmoney account holdings. If you have physical stashed somewhere, you have to get to the physical location, dig up the gold and then try to sell it to some dealer.

lhslancers | 04-24-2004 08:45 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions Metals not in your hands are not your metals at all.

Dissipate | 04-24-2004 09:32 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions Quote:
Originally Posted by lhslancers Metals not in your hands are not your metals at all.
A claim to metal with a reputable institution is good enough for me. To claim that such a reputable institution does not or cannot exist is silly.

shades2 | 04-24-2004 09:39 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions Quote:
Originally Posted by clark kent I can drink a whole tinny [Fosters] without falling over. :getdown:
Aussies don't actually drink Fosters! It's an export beer that we generally don't even like. We have much better beers including Carlton Draught, and a number of other international beers, like Newcastle Brown Ale, Kilkenny. Those are my personal faves. Other people's faves include Carton Cold, Tooheys New. etc. Yes we are very lucky to have such an excellent assortment of beer available.

lhslancers | 04-24-2004 09:42 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions Ever hear of Deak Perera? Google them and see what you see. If you feel that way you would be much better off taking a flyer on SSRI here and hold for the long term. Take a look at CFTN too. You are missing the main point of investing in the metals themselves. Do yourself a favor and research Deak Perera. One of the largest metals dealers during the last big bull went belly up. An unfortunate sould who inherited certificates from his deceased father found out all they were good for was to wipe yer arse with. Just a heads up do what you will.

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Dissipate | 04-24-2004 10:08 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions Quote:
Originally Posted by lhslancers Ever hear of Deak Perera? Google them and see what you see. If you feel that way you would be much better off taking a flyer on SSRI here and hold for the long term. Take a look at CFTN too. You are missing the main point of investing in the metals themselves. Do yourself a favor and research Deak Perera. One of the largest metals dealers during the last big bull went belly up. An unfortunate sould who inherited certificates from his deceased father found out all they were good for was to wipe yer arse with. Just a heads up do what you will.
You are right, there is some risk, but I think that you and some others are overly paranoid. If a company such as goldmoney has been around for at least 5 years and has a large network of third party sites and businesses to support it, which goldmoney has then the risk of it going belly up all of a sudden are pretty low. However, I agree that physical is better in some ways. But, for kinka it is not the best way because he is always traveling. Therefore, he should use the next best medium which is an online account such as goldmoney. That's all I'm saying.

lhslancers | 04-24-2004 10:18 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions I don't think I'm being overly paranoid. I've been around for a little bit and I can tell you this is not the same country that I grew up in. $hit is going downhill real fast. Some people are so freaking lame they can't even see the threat to personal liberty with the Patriot Act. We have two lunatics running the free world. This is going deep man and if I had my money in metals I wouldn't trust it to someone who has ONLY been around for five years.

IrishGold | 04-24-2004 10:18 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissipate You are right, there is some risk, but I think that you and some others are overly paranoid. If a company such as goldmoney has been around for at least 5 years and has a large network of third party sites and businesses to support it, which goldmoney has then the risk of it going belly up all of a sudden are pretty low. However, I agree that physical is better in some ways. But, for kinka it is not the best way because he is always traveling. Therefore, he should use the next best medium which is an online account such as goldmoney. That's all I'm saying.
Many of the S.& L. companies that went "belly up all of a sudden" back in the 70's had been in business much longer than 5 years and had a much larger "network of third party sites and businesses to support" them than goldmoney does now. It matters not how much flowery script you put on the paper, it is still only a "promise to pay." If you do not hold it in your hand, you do not have it! I can not stress this strong enough!

lhslancers | 04-24-2004 10:20 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishGold Many of the S.& L. companies that went "belly up all of a sudden" back in the 70's had been in business much longer than 5 years and had a much larger "network of third party sites and businesses to support" them than goldmoney does now. It matters not how much flowery script you put on the paper, it is still only a "promise to pay." If you do not hold it in your hand, you do not have it! I can not stress this strong enough!
I know many others share the same thought. Thanks Irish.

silverwood | 04-24-2004 11:17 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions I think in todays world of plastic credit cards, echecks and whatever a whole generation is growing up clueless to what is money/value. The reason you buy a gold or silver eagle is, it is something of tangible value that can be recognized.A tool an exchange medium. The time is approaching where the know how to barter or trade will seperate those who will prosper and those who won't.

lhslancers | 04-24-2004 11:17 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions If carrying or keeping all that silver around is not practical and obviously you can't carry a load of silver around then I would buy gold and take possession of it rather than trust anyone with it.

IrishGold | 04-24-2004 11:34 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions Quote:
Originally Posted by silverwood I think in todays world of plastic credit cards, echecks and whatever a whole generation is growing up clueless to what is money/value. The reason you buy a gold or silver eagle is, it is something of tangible value that can be recognized.A tool an exchange medium. The time is approaching where the know how to barter or trade will seperate those who will prosper and those who won't.
I agree silverwood. That is why I have kept adding to my list of things that will become barter or trade goods in the future. I also keep adding to the list of professions that will be in demand. The more you know, the more valuable you become. The more you have, the more vulnerable you become. The more vulnerable you become, the more you need to know!

Dissipate | 04-25-2004 12:43 AM
Re: Some physical storage questions Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishGold Many of the S.& L. companies that went "belly up all of a sudden" back in the 70's had been in business much longer than 5 years and had a much larger "network of third party sites and businesses to support" them than goldmoney does now. It matters not how much flowery script you put on the paper, it is still only a "promise to pay." If you do not hold it in your hand, you do not have it! I can not stress this strong enough!
Well, as far as I know there are three main reasons to own gold: 1. To use it as a currency. 2. To use it as an investment vehicle. 3. To use it as a safety net in times of severe economic downturns, or in other words, for survival. I agree that physical is the best for #3, no if ands or buts about that. However, it is far too ineffecient for #1. #1 is currently best done through the digital currencies, hands down. Unless you want to go into a shop and try to shave off a small sliver of one of your gold eagles to buy a candy bar. This will only change when free trimetalism is adopted. More about that here. As for #2, I think gold ETFs are best for that, although I won't argue that physical can't be used for investment also. So, perhaps you believe that owning physical gold is the only way to go. That's fine, but I believe that physical and non-physical is required to get the entire gold experience. That way I can have it for economic survival, but before the "big crash" comes, in the meantime I can use it as a currency. I already wrote an essay awhile back about government power. The conclusion I came to was that the greatest threat to government power is the rejection of government currency and the adoption of private currencies. Practically all private currencies are based on gold or silver, but all of the ones I know of use the warehouse system. The Austrian economist Murray Rothbard explained in his book how gold warehouses would be used in a society that did not have government currency. These warehouses are not all scams, they are a product of natural economic forces. These forces will force these warehouses to be legitimate businesses, to think otherwise is to believe that only government regulation can create honest currencies which is not a belief I believe many of you have. Now, I get a lot of anti-government sentiment on this site, but if you just hoard physical gold and continue to use fiat and the traditional banking system for all of your purchases, you may be prepared for the worst but you won't be putting a single dent in government power. You have heard the saying: "Vote with your pocketbook." well what better statement to make than opting out of the traditional fiat system and using digital gold currencies, at least on a marginal basis? Heck, the name of this site is afterall, GOLD IS MONEY.

GoodMoney | 04-25-2004 01:01 AM
Re: Some physical storage questions I am puzzled as to why precious metals buried in remote places (some even suggest foreign lands) are safe when TSHF. Metals buried on Govt Land belong to the Govt, do they not? And digging them out and keeping them for onself, what is the legal position of this - is it not an offence? When TSHF, surely there would be disruptions to transport and travelling to foreign countries would be dangerous? Also, one's own physical capacity to travel and dig may be impaired by injury or lack of medical attention. Why is Perth Mint not a viable option of storing metals? It is owned by the Govt of Western Australia. One can choose an allocated position in either gold or silver that gives a right to take delivery within 5 days of notice. There is no current difficulty in allocating upto 5000 oz of silver - it takes only a day ot tow for the transaction to be completed and the metals to be allocated. Costs are spot metal price + 2% for purchase and 2-4% on fabrication (depending on size of bar chosen). Storage is 2.5% per annum for silver and 2% for gold. There is no charge on delivery. There is no sales tax or capital gains tax in Australia on commodities. The metal is insured with Lloyd's and further backed by the Govt. Of Western Australia. Australia's economy is commodities based and it is unlikely the Govt of Australia would ban possession of precious metals. Such an event is most likely in the US. However, if things start getting really bad and the worst scenario starts unfolding, one can take delivery of physical silver and convert to gold at that point for easier carrying/storage.

lhslancers | 04-25-2004 01:20 AM
Re: Some physical storage questions the point is I think is that if the worst case scenario plays out it will be a bolt from the blue and no amount of scrambling will help. It will be too late. It will change overnight.

edjerider | 04-25-2004 06:17 PM
Re: Some physical storage questions Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodMoney .... Why is Perth Mint not a viable option of storing metals? It is owned by the Govt of Western Australia. One can choose an allocated position in either gold or silver that gives a right to take delivery within 5 days of notice. .... The metal is insured with Lloyd's and further backed by the Govt. Of Western Australia. :smokin: Australia's economy is commodities based and it is unlikely the Govt of Australia would ban possession of precious metals. Such an event is most likely in the US....
Here is a little piece of Australian legislation I found a while back... The fun starts at subsection (m) and your silver is taken care of in subsection (n) http://bar.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/a...index.html#s27 EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT ACT 1999 - SECT 27 27 Emergency powers (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, for the purpose of managing a declared emergency, the controller, by instrument, may authorise a member of an agency or a member of an organisation- (a) to direct the movement of persons, animals or vehicles within, into or around the emergency area; and (b) to give directions to regulate or prohibit the movement of persons, animals or vehicles within, into or around the emergency area; and (c) to enter land, a building, structure or vehicle within the emergency area using such force as is necessary and reasonable in the circumstances; and (d) to excavate land or form tunnels; and (e) to construct earthworks, erect barriers or temporary structures; and (f) to turn off, disconnect or shut down any motor or equipment; and (g) to open any receptacle, or dismantle any equipment, using such force as is necessary and reasonable in the circumstances; and (h) to bring any apparatus or equipment onto land or into a building, structure or vehicle; and (i) to evacuate persons or animals from the emergency area, or part of the emergency area, to such place as the controller thinks fit; and (j) to contain any animal or substance within the emergency area; and (k) to control, use, close off or block any drainage facility within the emergency area; and (l) to control, shut off or disconnect any supply of fuel, gas, electricity or water; and (m) to appropriate, acquire or abstract from, any supply of fuel, gas, electricity or water and use any such supply; and (n) to take possession of any land, building, structure, vehicle, animal, substance or other thing; and (o) to direct the owner of any property, by notice in writing to the owner, to place the property under the control, or at the disposal, of the controller; and (p) to remove, dismantle, demolish or destroy any building, structure or vehicle within the emergency area; and (q) to remove or destroy any animal, substance or vegetation within the emergency area; and (r) to maintain, restore, or prevent disruption of, essential services. (2) An executive head of an agency or organisation who has been authorised to exercise a power under subsection (1) may authorise a member of the agency or organisation to exercise that power. What you face is not a logical problem [people have held their wealth in their personal possession for millenia ] Your problem is a conceptual one. Go and buy $1000 worth of gold and silver and I gaurantee that after a week or so you will feel just like everyone else here. You too will see the light. :smokin:

clark kent | 04-26-2004 06:30 AM
Re: Some physical storage questions Metals not in your hands are not your metals at all. I've thought about all this quite a bit [also about Aussie beer ! (Whenever I go there, I just ask for a beer - so I don't know WHAT the stuff is. But at least they mightn't suss that I'm a bloody Pom!)]. I decided I wanted to ride silver till it gets close to the traditional gold/silver ration, then switch to gold for the rest of the ride. Over here [uk] you have to pay 17.5% value added taxon the stuff. I did buy about 22 kilos, all the same. That's why I chose a pm pool ... and the safest I could find was the Perth one, even though I am very aware that a govt promise and Lloyd's insurance could mean nothing in a serious depression. And I do think some sort of depression is on the way ... though not too bad in Aust as it has quite a lot of mineral wealth. I also got about �10,000 worth of goldgrams in GoldMoney, and reckon it's a pretty flexible way to keep gold. My plan is to keep the silver in Perth and also keep my ear to the ground. Hopefully I'll get enough warning of market collapses to know when it's the best time to get the silver allocated. Then later, if it looks like the economy's going to turn turtle, I'll get it out - cash it in and buy goldgrams, or [if silver hasn't got near it's peak] buy some silver in a country not affected by the recession/depression [Australia, South Africa (they have loads of mineral wealth [so would survive better], and I have a South African girlfriend] and stash it in a private vault there [or under a boulder in the outback!]. After that goldgrams I thought might be a good way to hold/access it if I move away from England. How to get at it in a new country without paying tax is the next question! (I do have 50% invested in silver/gold juniors also].

lhslancers | 04-26-2004 06:36 AM
Re: Some physical storage questions 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by clark kent I've thought about all this quite a bit [also about Aussie beer ! (Whenever I go there, I just ask for a beer - so I don't know WHAT the stuff is. But at least they mightn't suss that I'm a bloody Pom!)]. I decided I wanted to ride silver till it gets close to the traditional gold/silver ration, then switch to gold for the rest of the ride. Over here [uk] you have to pay 17.5% value added taxon the stuff. I did buy about 22 kilos, all the same. That's why I chose a pm pool ... and the safest I could find was the Perth one, even though I am very aware that a govt promise and Lloyd's insurance could mean nothing in a serious depression. And I do think some sort of depression is on the way ... though not too bad in Aust as it has quite a lot of mineral wealth. I also got about �10,000 worth of goldgrams in GoldMoney, and reckon it's a pretty flexible way to keep gold. My plan is to keep the silver in Perth and also keep my ear to the ground. Hopefully I'll get enough warning of market collapses to know when it's the best time to get the silver allocated. Then later, if it looks like the economy's going to turn turtle, I'll get it out - cash it in and buy goldgrams, or [if silver hasn't got near it's peak] buy some silver in a country not affected by the recession/depression [Australia, South Africa (they have loads of mineral wealth [so would survive better], and I have a South African girlfriend] and stash it in a private vault there [or under a boulder in the outback!]. After that goldgrams I thought might be a good way to hold/access it if I move away from England. How to get at it in a new country without paying tax is the next question! (I do have 50% invested in silver/gold juniors also].
This might be one way to get it out w/o paying the levy mate!

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