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- - proof coins better? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=97976)

platinumdude | 01-06-2007 12:27 PM
proof coins better? In terms of the numismatics worth of US mint coins, do proof coins have a better chance of being worth more than uncirculated coins?

silverwood | 01-06-2007 01:10 PM
Re: proof coins better? IMO no. Proof coins command a premium because they cost the mint more to produce them. But as what becomes valuable numismatically speaking I think scarcity has more to do with. In other words how many of them were produced and still exist.

Wyldwil | 01-06-2007 01:38 PM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 464962) In terms of the numismatics worth of US mint coins, do proof coins have a better chance of being worth more than uncirculated coins?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. very often (especially in the older commerative releases) the UNC. numbers are waaay lower than the proof numbers. A much better basic rule of thumb for numismatic value is mintage numbers....or scarcity as Silverwood already pointed out.:wink:

Reno Chris | 01-06-2007 03:37 PM
Re: proof coins better? with a few exceptions such as error coins, etc., proof coins minted after 1960 are not particularly valuable. Proofs before 1940 are very valuable. Lots of collectors load up on proofs from the late 1970s and newer and like I say, with a few exceptions, these coins are worth less than the original owners paid the mint for them 20 or 30 years ago. Thats not a great investment. Chris

platinumdude | 01-06-2007 08:50 PM
Re: proof coins better? Thanks for the all the info. The one proof coin I bought was the 2006 Buffalo Gold coin. I just wanted to get one that wouldn't have a single scratch on it, and thought this was my best bet. I don't think I will ever sell this one and will not buy any more proof, just bullion for investment and wont care about minor scratches. From looking at the mint counts of 2005, 356,555 gold one ounce coins were sold while 9,784 proof coins were made. Not sure if that will make a difference on selling price in several years or not.

silverwood | 01-07-2007 01:02 AM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by platinumdude (Post 465318) Thanks for the all the info. The one proof coin I bought was the 2006 Buffalo Gold coin. I just wanted to get one that wouldn't have a single scratch on it, and thought this was my best bet. I don't think I will ever sell this one and will not buy any more proof, just bullion for investment and wont care about minor scratches. From looking at the mint counts of 2005, 356,555 gold one ounce coins were sold while 9,784 proof coins were made. Not sure if that will make a difference on selling price in several years or not.
If there were only 9,784 2005 1 oz GAE eagles struck in proof then you would have a good numismatic coin. Because there are easily that many serious collectors to buy them but... look again at the mintage figures. There were 9,784 proofs sold as a single unit but their were 17,210 four coin sets sold meaning that there were 27,210 total proof coin struck! That's a big difference but still not terribly common and has a good chance to appreciate numismatically over time IMO. The 2006 buffalo gold proof, which I bought also, had a hugh possible mintage of something like 300,000 and if anywhere near that amount got sold we are screwed numismatically on that one!:banghead:

elroy | 01-07-2007 11:37 AM
Re: proof coins better? FYI, stay away from anything marked "first strike". They are a total fraud.

smullen | 01-07-2007 02:18 PM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy (Post 465733) FYI, stay away from anything marked "first strike". They are a total fraud.
YOu know I thought that from the start... I always thought, there is no way to tell, the coins aren't marked or serial #'ed in any way...

j-son | 02-09-2007 08:33 PM
Re: proof coins better? seems like the 2006 buffalo proof coin is selling for $750 on ebay nowadays...i dont understand why people would buy this coin for $800 and then sell it in the same ungraded condition for $750...whats that all about?!

Master_Ho | 02-09-2007 10:41 PM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by j-son (Post 505014) seems like the 2006 buffalo proof coin is selling for $750 on ebay nowadays...i dont understand why people would buy this coin for $800 and then sell it in the same ungraded condition for $750...whats that all about?!
Cause some people are dumb and greedy and bought them expecting to make a killing in a few weeks or months.........instead of holding them a few years....... And we can assume a few need cash for something.

Big_Rob | 02-09-2007 10:46 PM
Re: proof coins better? The best SAE IMHO is the 2006 "W" unc. Uber low mintage and not a proof.

Big_Rob | 02-09-2007 10:48 PM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by j-son (Post 505014) seems like the 2006 buffalo proof coin is selling for $750 on ebay nowadays...i dont understand why people would buy this coin for $800 and then sell it in the same ungraded condition for $750...whats that all about?!
The only reason that I can think of is because their brains leaked out or were eaten by zombies. *Oooooh let me sell my 1996 SAE for 10 bucks!!! whoo hoo!!! DUUUURRRRP* :smokin::smokin::smokin:

Master_Ho | 02-09-2007 10:49 PM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Rob (Post 505160) The best SAE IMHO is the 2006 "W" unc. Uber low mintage and not a proof.
According to PCGS - the 2006-W Unc. is valued at $150 (their prices are retail, the price is less important than the relative values)..........the 2006-W Proof is $95 and the 2006-W reverse proof is $265. I can't say one is better than the other but the reverse proof is certainly the least minted of the three.

Master_Ho | 02-09-2007 10:53 PM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Rob (Post 505164) The only reason that I can think of is because their brains leaked out or were eaten by zombies. *Oooooh let me sell my 1996 SAE for 10 bucks!!! whoo hoo!!! DUUUURRRRP* :smokin::smokin::smokin:
I'll give you $15..............PM me. :D

j-son | 02-10-2007 07:45 AM
Re: proof coins better? but even on dealers websites they are offering gold eagle proofs at $759..... were they originally offered higher from the mint?

Tn...Andy | 02-10-2007 09:12 AM
Re: proof coins better? Proof coins 'better' ? Only if you can find that Greater Fool that agrees with you......ahahahaaaaa

Satyr | 02-10-2007 09:22 AM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Rob (Post 505160) The best SAE IMHO is the 2006 "W" unc. Uber low mintage and not a proof.
Not to mention that 2006 was the first year for unc. non-proof eagles, silver and gold, to be minted at West Point. Hence it is a key date.

Master_Ho | 02-10-2007 03:43 PM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by j-son (Post 505417) but even on dealers websites they are offering gold eagle proofs at $759..... were they originally offered higher from the mint?
I am not sure about this cause I am not looking at a chart - but its possible that when these went on sale - gold was priced higher than it is now......so people reduced the price onthe coin accordingly?

The Great Ag | 02-10-2007 08:39 PM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho (Post 505679) I am not sure about this cause I am not looking at a chart - but its possible that when these went on sale - gold was priced higher than it is now......so people reduced the price onthe coin accordingly?
There are vendors who buy in large quantities from the Mint, and they get a discount. Perhaps some of these proof gold are selling for less than $800. Overall I agree, buy proofs of circulating coinage. If it's a commem then I say buy the one with the lowest mintage. This is usually the circulated version and not the proof. It's amazing the difference in mintage figures between the two. The Great Ag

Master_Ho | 02-10-2007 09:57 PM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Ag (Post 505882) There are vendors who buy in large quantities from the Mint, and they get a discount. Perhaps some of these proof gold are selling for less than $800. The Great Ag
Do you know this for a fact? I had heard that dealers have to buy for the same price we, the public, do. I have never heard of them getting a deal on price from the Mint - tho I know they do get an incredible discount for grading from NGC for quanity.

The Great Ag | 02-11-2007 05:50 AM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho (Post 505929) Do you know this for a fact? I had heard that dealers have to buy for the same price we, the public, do. I have never heard of them getting a deal on price from the Mint - tho I know they do get an incredible discount for grading from NGC for quanity.
Hey, Master Ho: I do believe this to be true. I cannot remember where I read this, but it did apply to regular bullion coins. I was generalizing that data to include proofs, and I may be wrong in that aspect. Certain brokers (I don't know which ones) have the "privilege" of receiving discounts from the mint with circulated gold, silver and platinum coins. We cannot buy these directly from the mint, and must buy from a secondary source. Does this "privilege" extend to those same brokers for proofs? I do not know. The Great Ag

Master_Ho | 02-11-2007 12:30 PM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Ag (Post 506075) Hey, Master Ho: I do believe this to be true. I cannot remember where I read this, but it did apply to regular bullion coins. I was generalizing that data to include proofs, and I may be wrong in that aspect. Certain brokers (I don't know which ones) have the "privilege" of receiving discounts from the mint with circulated gold, silver and platinum coins. We cannot buy these directly from the mint, and must buy from a secondary source. Does this "privilege" extend to those same brokers for proofs? I do not know. The Great Ag
OK - So far we are on the same page - according to my dealer - they are not allowed to buy proofs (which I assume means they could as individuals but not as stores or buyers and not in bulk - just with the same restrictions as we).

The Great Ag | 02-12-2007 10:15 AM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho (Post 506266) OK - So far we are on the same page - according to my dealer - they are not allowed to buy proofs (which I assume means they could as individuals but not as stores or buyers and not in bulk - just with the same restrictions as we).
The only reason I question, is why sell at a loss, unless you need the money? Not saying anything about a conspiracy, but if you buy in a large enough quantity the mint usually gives discounts, just like any vendor would. THe Great Ag

Master_Ho | 02-12-2007 07:44 PM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Ag (Post 506972) The only reason I question, is why sell at a loss, unless you need the money? Not saying anything about a conspiracy, but if you buy in a large enough quantity the mint usually gives discounts, just like any vendor would. THe Great Ag
Well, that's why I was guessing the price of gold had gone down since the release and people were selling cheaper cause they were afraid it might go down even further. First, I still have not heard of a dealer getting regular cuirculation coins chearper just cause they buy in bulk. I believe the issue here was proof coins and I have not heard of a discount for mass buying either, not that that's not possible.......but, unless I am mistaken, you summizing are that they are getting a discount, but do not know that for sure any more than I know they don't - so we both need to find out from someone who can say one way or the other for a fact. (As numismatic guys this is important info - why buy from the Mint if we can buy cheaper after the Mint sells to others!) Finally, many people who sell on EBay are not dealers but individuals who do things like buy their coins on TV shopping networks, totally unaware they are being scalped......or people who HOPE the prices will be bid over what they paid.......not the most savy buyers and sellers, to say the least, and I was speculating that if these people see gold price going down, they might fear a further loss and want to sell fast. Frankly, I think it will be about 3 years till the dust settles and we know what the collector's value of these coins really are....but many people buy expecting to turn around and sell at a profit 2-3 months later (and retire! :haha: )

j-son | 02-12-2007 07:53 PM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho (Post 507448) Well, that's why I was guessing the price of gold had gone down since the release and people were selling cheaper cause they were afraid it might go down even further. First, I still have not heard of a dealer getting regular cuirculation coins chearper just cause they buy in bulk. I believe the issue here was proof coins and I have not heard of a discount for mass buying either, not that that's not possible.......but, unless I am mistaken, you summizing are that they are getting a discount, but do not know that for sure any more than I know they don't - so we both need to find out from someone who can say one way or the other for a fact. (As numismatic guys this is important info - why buy from the Mint if we can buy cheaper after the Mint sells to others!) Finally, many people who sell on EBay are not dealers but individuals who do things like buy their coins on TV shopping networks, totally unaware they are being scalped......or people who HOPE the prices will be bid over what they paid.......not the most savy buyers and sellers, to say the least, and I was speculating that if these people see gold price going down, they might fear a further loss and want to sell fast. Frankly, I think it will be about 3 years till the dust settles and we know what the collector's value of these coins really are....but many people buy expecting to turn around and sell at a profit 2-3 months later (and retire! :haha: )
i bought a buffalo proof off ebay for $750 including shipping. i was just curious why someone would sell it for $50 less than purchased..especially if it was ungraded. if it were graded poorly i could possibly understand.

Master_Ho | 02-12-2007 08:14 PM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by j-son (Post 507453) i bought a buffalo proof off ebay for $750 including shipping. i was just curious why someone would sell it for $50 less than purchased..especially if it was ungraded. if it were graded poorly i could possibly understand.
Yes, I know - and thats what we're trying to figure out between us.......maybe they don't know how to get it graded? The whole thing bets me - but I've seen people make incredibly dumb sales on Ebay - in one case so dumb, I won it but offered it back to the seller!

j-son | 02-12-2007 08:57 PM
Re: proof coins better? i just won a regular buffalo gold coin yesterday for $600 shipped?! why would he do that? hopefully both transactions go smoothly and i get both coins mailed and dont have to go through paypal chargebacks.

Master_Ho | 02-13-2007 01:28 AM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by j-son (Post 507501) i just won a regular buffalo gold coin yesterday for $600 shipped?! why would he do that? hopefully both transactions go smoothly and i get both coins mailed and dont have to go through paypal chargebacks.
AGAIN - I am only guessing the reasoning - but the regular buffalo coin was sold by dealers for the price of gold plus a small premium....it was the proof coin that was sold by the Mint for $800.........the regular or uncirculated coin sells like bullion......not sure why they took a hit on the price...........was it a dealer of individual? Were there other buffalo coins on sale close to the same price? Maybe it was an individual who figured they could not get the full price? Like you - I am puzzled by this! Ho

Master_Ho | 02-14-2007 06:01 PM
Re: proof coins better? OKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY............... So I finally got to talk to a couple of my coin dearler friends about this - and they came up with three plausable answers. The first - some people selling on Ebay are braindead! (Well, DUH........we know that) They do not know what they are doing - and are selling too low.....or don't put a reserve price on the item so people don't bid higher........or people bidding stop where they do cause of the shipping fees. All of these we figured. Second - maybe they need the cash - it is not long after Christmas and the might figure its worth taking a few dollars loss to actually sell the item and get some cash. (OK, that makes sense, especially if they do not have a coin dealer close by to sell to) Third - and far more interesting - a lot of coin dealers and pawn shops are not happy with Ebay cause to sell there you do not have to fill out the form they do, which documents that the item is actually theirs and not stolen!! So if someone stole a coin (and I am not saying on your deals they did) getting a few dollars less than its worth is worth it if you basically got it for free!! Seems a lot of stolen stuff gets sold there - gee, whodda thunk??? So thats the top 3 reasons we have come up with.......stupid, need or fencing.......... I am sure we'll hear a fourth at some point but god only knows what it will be......... "I didn't know it was REAL gold when I sold it, I thought it was gold plated!" :haha:

j-son | 02-14-2007 06:11 PM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho (Post 509565) OKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY............... So I finally got to talk to a couple of my coin dearler friends about this - and they came up with three plausable answers. The first - some people selling on Ebay are braindead! (Well, DUH........we know that) They do not know what they are doing - and are selling too low.....or don't put a reserve price on the item so people don't bid higher........or people bidding stop where they do cause of the shipping fees. All of these we figured. Second - maybe they need the cash - it is not long after Christmas and the might figure its worth taking a few dollars loss to actually sell the item and get some cash. (OK, that makes sense, especially if they do not have a coin dealer close by to sell to) Third - and far more interesting - a lot of coin dealers and pawn shops are not happy with Ebay cause to sell there you do not have to fill out the form they do, which documents that the item is actually theirs and not stolen!! So if someone stole a coin (and I am not saying on your deals they did) getting a few dollars less than its worth is worth it if you basically got it for free!! Seems a lot of stolen stuff gets sold there - gee, whodda thunk??? So thats the top 3 reasons we have come up with.......stupid, need or fencing.......... I am sure we'll hear a fourth at some point but god only knows what it will be......... "I didn't know it was REAL gold when I sold it, I thought it was gold plated!" :haha:
all sound reasonable...i will let you know if i really receive my ebay items or if i got ripped off.

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Master_Ho | 02-14-2007 06:37 PM
Re: proof coins better? Quote:
Originally Posted by j-son (Post 509575) all sound reasonable...i will let you know if i really receive my ebay items or if i got ripped off.
I seriously doubt you'll get ripped off - even theives (if they are, which I doubt) want their money for their booty!! Unlike some here who want a little booty for their money! :D

j-son | 02-14-2007 09:41 PM
Re: proof coins better? anyone know anything about proof kruggerand coins? i picked up a 1 oz gold proof coin from my local dealer. he said mintage was only about 20K for the coin. 1986 date. i bought 8 silver eagles and a dozen silver maples and the gold krand oz proof for $1000 even....i guess it was fair. http://cgi.ebay.com/2006-1-ounce-gol...QQcmdZViewItem this one seems fair

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