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Bullionaire | 12-11-2003 09:34 AM
Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Short and hopefully not too boring Bio....found this site and hope to be a help.....I owned and operated a retail coin/bullion store for 18 years and retired at end of 1998.... I started collecting coins in 1959 when my cousin gave me a couple of Whitman penny albums....it was an exciting time with the new memorial back pennies....on my way home from grade school I stopped at Hoch's Deli and Mr Hoch, a kindly German let me sift thru his pennies for my collection.(Bought as many as my ten cent weekly allowance would buy)Skip ahead to 1967...high school, part time job at Hamburger chain called Burger Chef making .90 an hour....on weekly visit to local coin shop saw Dealer was paying more than face value for silver certificates which were circulating freely....using my job as a source I was buying them up at face value and selling them to the coin dealer for 1.50-1.75. This was like shooting ducks in a barrel.....soon I was buying them from bank tellers and barber shops for 1.25....I think they thought I was crazy...keep in mind news did not travel that quickly in the sixties. Well all good things must end, and it did in 1968...government quit redemption....reverted back to being one dollar....at this point it was hard not to notice that the silver coins were disappearing....I started getting rolls at the bank at saving the silver coins....if memory serves me you found about 25% silver in the rolls at this time.... CONTINUED

Uncle | 12-11-2003 09:48 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Welcome to GIM, Bullionaire Glad we found you :D :coolbeer: Goldn Regards Uncle

Bullionaire | 12-11-2003 09:53 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Skip ahead after Navy enlistment (Submarine Service,1969 Vietnam River Patrols 1970-71) early- mid 70's set up and wheeled and dealed at coin shows when my full time job did not interfere....gold was getting a lot of attention as Nixon took us off gold standard....this paved the way for private ownership of bullion....jump ahead late 1970's Carter.."stag-flation" 20% interest rates, Hunt brothers trying to buy up all the silver.....I expanded from coin shows to doing hotel buys of gold and silver scrap as well as coins....those were the days....gold $800.00 silver $25.00....there were lines of people selling their family heirlooms and grandpa's old gold teeth....that was fun times.................................... In 1981 I decided to go full time retail...I quit my job,(sold all my silver I had picked out in 1968, at twenty times face I might add) openned up a coin and bullion store and figured I would retire in 5 years....actually good things came to an abrupt end and I retired at the end of 1998. At the time I openned my store gold was six hundred and change and silver was twelveish....that turned out to be the highest I saw in my retail time. CONTINUED

Bullionaire | 12-11-2003 09:58 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello I hope I can contribute a little bit here, I could write a book about coins, coin dealers, gold, silver, platinum, paladium and the many experiences both good and bad....it was quite a ride, hope to see those days again....just am concerned that" Uncle Sugar " (Government) may never let it happen....best to all.......and......GO METALS GO !!!!!!!

hoarder | 12-11-2003 10:31 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Bullionaire, Welcome to GIM. "....I think they thought I was crazy...keep in mind news did not travel that quickly in the sixties." Information about monetary matters didn't travel much at all....before the internet. The fog is now beginning to lift.

IrishGold | 12-11-2003 10:36 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Hey Bullionaire, Welcome to GIM! Brown Water Navy huh? Hooboy, could those boys stitch up the jungles edge! We are fortunate to have you come aboard now. Our Founding Member, Silver Streak was a bullion dealer in the 80's also. He has just gone through heart surgery and is hopefully recuperating. You will find a lot of questions to field here, so you will probably be pretty busy! Once again, welcome to GIM!

Goldhedge | 12-11-2003 10:44 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by butler Bullionaire, Welcome to GIM. "....I think they thought I was crazy...keep in mind news did not travel that quickly in the sixties." Information about monetary matters didn't travel much at all....before the internet. The fog is now beginning to lift.
How true, the fog is beginning to lift for the fraud that has been perpitrated upon our tradtional values. Income taxes, monetary manipulation, lies and deceit from government all starting to unravel. Unfortunately, I think they saw this coming and made sure there was a darn good reason to pass that anti-Patriot Act which guts any freedoms we may attempt to enforce. Welcome Bullionaire, I think you'll find this to be the best site on the net. Many veiwpoints from self educated individuals. You couldn't buy this kind of education these days. :wavey:

gpond | 12-11-2003 12:24 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Bullionaire, Welcome, indeed! In 1980 I, as a wee lad of 20, worked for a fly-by-night company as a junk gold/silver buyer. The scene was just as you described. Folks were lined up with their old class rings, silverware, etc. The newspapers had multiple ads for companies buying gold/silver. It was a cool job because we were selling cash at I time when many folks needed some. I thank my lucky stars that I had that job. Otherwise it is very unlikely that I would have found my way here some 23 years later. I just wouldn't have "gotten" it.

IrishGold | 12-11-2003 12:30 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Will gpond, at farty-tree yer stile jist a wee laddie

gpond | 12-11-2003 12:37 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello IrishGold, I just had a birthday, so really 44 now and staring down 45 next year. Yeah, I'm a young-un. That's what I keep telling myself. Over and over. Yep.

IrishGold | 12-11-2003 12:47 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by gpond IrishGold, I just had a birthday, so really 44 now and staring down 45 next year. Yeah, I'm a young-un. That's what I keep telling myself. Over and over. Yep.
Dang it, did we miss yer birthday gpond? I don't remember it, so we must have forgot! Therefore: Belated Happy Birthday!:cake:

gpond | 12-11-2003 07:50 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishGold Dang it, did we miss yer birthday gpond? I don't remember it, so we must have forgot! Therefore: Belated Happy Birthday!:cake:
Thanks IrishGold. Tis true that it was upon the 4th of December and everyone but Tachyon Flare did miss it. So I ate worms and then went on with my wife. I mean life.

G-khan | 12-11-2003 07:56 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by gpond Thanks IrishGold. Tis true that it was upon the 4th of December and everyone but Tachyon Flare did miss it. So I ate worms and then went on with my wife. I mean life.
I thought I sent you a well wishing - or my old age is getting to my memory.... Never know what I remember anymore! :party: :birthday: :getdown:

gpond | 12-11-2003 08:18 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello It matters not. And I appreciate it. But I did not receive it. Worms aren't really that bad anyway. And I have a full wife. I mean life. PS. Anyway I only put it in my profile on that very day, and removed it the next. :stickyman

G-khan | 12-11-2003 08:20 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by gpond It matters not. And I appreciate it. But I did not receive it. Worms aren't really that bad anyway. And I have a full wife. I mean life.
Sorry gpond - happy birthday.... :coolbeer:

IrishGold | 12-11-2003 08:47 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Okay..... from this, we have learned something! "What?" You ask. We have learned we need to have our little b-day reminder at the bottom of more pages than just the home page. I NEVER go there! I shouldn't say "never", cause I think I did accidently once, and it just happened to be on helpful_monkey's birthday. G-khan can we do this? gpond, can we do this? who else can I ask? Or better yet, who else could I order to do this?

90%RealMoney | 12-11-2003 08:56 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishGold Okay..... from this, we have learned something! "What?" You ask. We have learned we need to have our little b-day reminder at the bottom of more pages than just the home page. I NEVER go there! I shouldn't say "never", cause I think I did accidently once, and it just happened to be on helpful_monkey's birthday. G-khan can we do this? gpond, can we do this? who else can I ask? Or better yet, who else could I order to do this?
Irish, better send the Black Ops guy in to take care of it. You know, that pink guy!

G-khan | 12-11-2003 09:01 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishGold Okay..... from this, we have learned something! "What?" You ask. We have learned we need to have our little b-day reminder at the bottom of more pages than just the home page. I NEVER go there! I shouldn't say "never", cause I think I did accidently once, and it just happened to be on helpful_monkey's birthday. G-khan can we do this? gpond, can we do this? who else can I ask? Or better yet, who else could I order to do this?
Our calendar will be very cool and have this and I will see if I can hack something for birthdays to appear on top... Just for you Irish - see how nice I am to you...:banana:

G-khan | 12-11-2003 09:02 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by 90%RealMoney Irish, better send the Black Ops guy in to take care of it. You know, that pink guy!
Stay out of this.............. :boxing:

IrishGold | 12-11-2003 09:04 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Uh Oh, Tedd don't like to be called a guy...She's a girl, errr a gal, errrr a broad. Oh dang it she's a she!

IrishGold | 12-11-2003 09:06 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Stay out of this.............. :boxing:
............................................G-khan..90%

Uncle | 12-12-2003 05:09 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by gpond It matters not. And I appreciate it. But I did not receive it. Worms aren't really that bad anyway. And I have a full wife. I mean life. PS. Anyway I only put it in my profile on that very day, and removed it the next. :stickyman
Sneaky bugger :argh: Hope you had a good one :party: I'll leave you now to get on with your life....I mean wife :D Golden Regards Uncle

Silverity | 12-12-2003 07:47 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Hi Bullionaire, What I would like to know from an investment point of view is how much below spot was silverware going for and how did bullion items do when brought to the dealers? Thanks, Silverity.

Bullionaire | 12-12-2003 09:22 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Hello Silvercity.....I am sure as to what time frame you are referring to...I assume you are referring to the high flying days of the late 1970's. Let me preface this.....silver ingots were actually a rare thing,most silver bullion 1oz 10oz 100oz was actually a demand product created by the boom and bust cycle of 1979 and 1980....few companies made silver bars prior to that and they were "art bars" sold in coin publications. Silver bars were being produced in investment sizes in bulk 1981-1982. Most of what I purchased at my hotel buys (I did not open retail store till 1981) was Franklin Mint silver....these were .925 sterling. We purchased a lot of silver coinage both .900 and .400. There was a lot of sterling flatware and related. I do not remember specific prices at this point ( 25 years later ) but I can tell you this....sterling was melted indiscrimanently at those prices $25.00 and up, it did not matter if it was Tiffany, Grand Baroque,Francis 1st or junk no name, it ended up in the melting pot....what did happen, is this, the prices became erratic and the refineries were backed-up. At this point even though silver was going up, the refineries(end users) started paying less.....I think there was so much in the pipeline they were afraid of getting stuck holding the bag if prices collapsed. CONTINUED

Bullionaire | 12-12-2003 09:39 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Later when I openned my doors.the silver price was around $12.00 an ounce, I believe....at this point the public, after seeing silver up to 48.00 on the news, became net BUYERS and the industry was born.My personal feelings on silver are this....it could be a good investment vehicle. Lots of people buy it for "survival money" I think this is a good thing also....I am no longer in the prediction business; however I think silver is really cheap now....my fear is that if silver goes up to say $12.00-$15.00 an ounce, there is a whole generation of people 60 years old plus that have been buying silver as low as 3.50 an ounce (early 1990's) that will divest their holdings and unless the demand is there,curtail any huge price increase. When it was that cheap it was not uncommon to sell thousands of ounces at a time..there is a lot of 3.50-4.00 silver out there, believe me.... When silver dropped from 25.00+ silverware patterns mattered and Tiffany Grand Baroque, Francis 1st, became premium items again;and we bullion dealers educated ourselves to this fact.. Hope this helped and I did not ramble too much....

AgAuGal | 12-12-2003 10:51 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire Later when I openned my doors.the silver price was around $12.00 an ounce, I believe....at this point the public, after seeing silver up to 48.00 on the news, became net BUYERS and the industry was born.My personal feelings on silver are this....it could be a good investment vehicle. Lots of people buy it for "survival money" I think this is a good thing also....I am no longer in the prediction business; however I think silver is really cheap now....my fear is that if silver goes up to say $12.00-$15.00 an ounce, there is a whole generation of people 60 years old plus that have been buying silver as low as 3.50 an ounce (early 1990's) that will divest their holdings and unless the demand is there,curtail any huge price increase. When it was that cheap it was not uncommon to sell thousands of ounces at a time..there is a lot of 3.50-4.00 silver out there, believe me.... When silver dropped from 25.00+ silverware patterns mattered and Tiffany Grand Baroque, Francis 1st, became premium items again;and we bullion dealers educated ourselves to this fact.. Hope this helped and I did not ramble too much....
Wanted to get my formal (such that it is) howdy and welcome to you Bullionaire. I wondered about what would happen if a glut of silver came to the market like the times you described. There are people that are predicting $50 - $200 silver prices this bull market. But if there is a bunch of it around when (notice I said when) we hit $20, those folks that have been suffering, I mean holding $3-$5 silver for 20 years are going to rush to sell I think. That I would expect would cap these lofty high rise epectations plus I don't think there are as many refiners around anymore to take the stuff. I don't even know where the closest refiner is to me. Would not know how to look one up in the yellow pages if my life depended on it. Looking forward to your input.

Bullionaire | 12-12-2003 11:07 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Howdy back to you....nice to see the fairer sex interested in the metals...very good question....I think once the Chinese people come on board...they are gaining affluence fast....I was in Bejing, Shanghai, and Xian last year on vacation, you have both extremes abject poverty (saw people living in caves near Xian, with bare lite bulb) to the bright lites of Shanghai with a town square that reminded me of downtown New York..with all its fine high end stores...Looking at everything for sale in this country, it is made in China, been to Walmart lately??? I see the Chinese people, given the chance to purchase, which has to happen sooner or later, becoming purchasers of precious metals... The biggest threat to precious metals is governments and dis-information. they can produce paper money out of thin air....a hundred dollar bill uses as much paper and ink as a one dollar note... So much non-taxable money was made in the late 1970's and early 1980's (cash transactions) I do not see them letting it happen as un-controlled again........as a matter of fact cashless society is probably less than 20 years away...the computer age is both good and bad.......

Bobcat | 12-12-2003 11:25 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Howdy Bullionaire, Its good to have someone of your experience join the other veterans (i'm not one of them) at this fine, one of a kind forum. What is your preference in silver...90% bags or 99.9 rounds/bars or other?

90%RealMoney | 12-12-2003 12:30 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello I know there could be a lot of people eager to sell in a run up, but with the internet now, people are more savvy than ever. Given what happened in the equities markets in '99- 2000, can you imagine all of those same people rushing to buy PM's? I think there are way more potential investors out there, than there are sellers. I could be wrong, but I don't think we've seen anything yet, as to what will happen when J6P figures things out. There's alot more sheep out there, than there are wise old owls! Comments?

Silverity | 12-12-2003 12:46 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Bullionaire, Yes, I was thinking of the late 70s. Thanks for your insights, memories and wisdom on that period. Silverity.

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Bullionaire | 12-12-2003 01:57 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Hello 90%.....good points about the internet...it is a wild card....the equities run-up was generated by investment houses, brokerage, Fed,mutuals,media.....precious metals are not in my opinion,considered mainstream investments...I always enjoyed watching the talking heads on the financial tv shows....never a peep when gold goes up 10-$20....when gold drops a nice chunk....boy is it news......end of world. There is an institutional, governmental disdain for having people put money in physical metals....no control....you buy stocks on the other hand, you must have account with social security number...precious metals are freedom...easily converted, no paper trail for cash...a lot of cars,boats and homes were purchased during last run up...for cash A few years before I retired the revenueers implemented a cash reporting nightmare....1099B I believe for anyone in potential cash transactions over $10,000.00 Car dealers,coin and bullion dealers anyone including banks....go to your bank and tell them you want to withdraw $10,000 cash....it is now subject to bank whims....$3000.00 at my bank. First thing they will do is get out a cash transaction report to send into Uncle Sugar.....it is a new world out there folks.....be carefull

Bullionaire | 12-12-2003 02:07 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Hello Bobcat....not an Ohio Bobcat?? Football is a passion.... 90% or .999 silver......good hard to answer question.....why not both!! 90% has good recognition factor in worse case scenario....most everybody wet behind ears rembers silver coinage....oops..did not mean to date myself....was given senior discount at restaurant the other day....did not ask for it though....I like 90% halves (do not waste time with 40%) and circulated dollars (pre 1921)....silver bars I would pay extra premium for good name Engelhard Johnson-Mathey and few others....you will get most of that premium back on sale, as dealers like bigger names as they sell easier...I personally like smaller bars 1-10 oz....easier to negotiate sales....a hundred oz,or perish the thought 1000 oz comex bar limits your options.....

mrdirp | 12-12-2003 06:49 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Hi Bullionaire...Peace from West Virginia and welcome..I think someone posted recently that the education one gets from this site cannot be found anywhere else and I agree 100 percent...I've learned more about our economy and about precious metals over the past two months from this site than from any text book or from any "mainstream" source of information. I was a little kid in 1980 but I have vivid memories of my father taking silver quarters "junk" and going down to the shopping center and selling them during the silver spike...thats why I believe in silver today...because I saw how good it was to my family. I remember how incredible a feeling it was to see $1.00 worth of coins give back $20.00 or more...my father horded the stuff for years and years then all of sudden there was that incredible leap in price... questions: 1. was it divestment of silver during the 80's price run up that caused the silver price to fall? wasnt there more silver actually available at the time than there is today? 2. do you believe there is a genuine shortage of the metal? Is it actually more rare than gold thanks to its industrial demand? 3. would large scale divestment cause a spike of $50-200 to tumble and to what level? 4. do you agree with Butler that once the silver shortage becomes apparent the price will stay high for years? I know this is the realm of crystal ball but I'd be very interested in any feedback you might have Mr Dirp

IrishGold | 12-12-2003 08:10 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdirp Hi Bullionaire...Peace from West Virginia and welcome..I think someone posted recently that the education one gets from this site cannot be found anywhere else and I agree 100 percent...I've learned more about our economy and about precious metals over the past two months from this site than from any text book or from any "mainstream" source of information. I was a little kid in 1980 but I have vivid memories of my father taking silver quarters "junk" and going down to the shopping center and selling them during the silver spike...thats why I believe in silver today...because I saw how good it was to my family. I remember how incredible a feeling it was to see $1.00 worth of coins give back $20.00 or more...my father horded the stuff for years and years then all of sudden there was that incredible leap in price... questions: 1. was it divestment of silver during the 80's price run up that caused the silver price to fall? wasnt there more silver actually available at the time than there is today? 2. do you believe there is a genuine shortage of the metal? Is it actually more rare than gold thanks to its industrial demand? 3. would large scale divestment cause a spike of $50-200 to tumble and to what level? 4. do you agree with Butler that once the silver shortage becomes apparent the price will stay high for years? I know this is the realm of crystal ball but I'd be very interested in any feedback you might have Mr Dirp
I have opinions on everyone of your questions, but you know what the say about opinions, They are like a$$xxxxs - everybody has one. Unfortunatly I don't have any answers for you. However, I know of no one who has studied the silver situation as much or as close as Ted Butler, so my money is on him and what he says.

Bullionaire | 12-12-2003 10:00 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Have to agree with Irish..opinions are like butt holes.....however here are a few thoughts for mrdirp's questions....keep in mind I have done no recent research... Silver availablity....many countries such as India never release info regarding holdings of populace...figures you see put out by "analysts" are good guesstimates...no one has a clue as to the above ground supply. The bottom line is what will make it rise in value....the prices are pretty much in my opinion, dictated by the comex traders in New York...they trade volumes of paper on silver contracts, never taking physical delivery....I believe they trade more contracts then silver available in comex warehouse....they are happy with a ten cent move up or down....no mess no fuss only paper shuffling and quick profit. What has to happen, is stop trading paper and take delivery...of course they will not do this..they do not have to.... Industrial demand for silver....for what??? Used to be for photographic development...not hardly anymore .. X-ray film development...MRI taking over that function....Correct me if I am wrong.....but silver appears to be less needed...CONTINUED

90%RealMoney | 12-12-2003 10:14 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire Hello 90%.....good points about the internet...it is a wild card....the equities run-up was generated by investment houses, brokerage, Fed,mutuals,media.....precious metals are not in my opinion,considered mainstream investments...I always enjoyed watching the talking heads on the financial tv shows....never a peep when gold goes up 10-$20....when gold drops a nice chunk....boy is it news......end of world. There is an institutional, governmental disdain for having people put money in physical metals....no control....you buy stocks on the other hand, you must have account with social security number...precious metals are freedom...easily converted, no paper trail for cash...a lot of cars,boats and homes were purchased during last run up...for cash A few years before I retired the revenueers implemented a cash reporting nightmare....1099B I believe for anyone in potential cash transactions over $10,000.00 Car dealers,coin and bullion dealers anyone including banks....go to your bank and tell them you want to withdraw $10,000 cash....it is now subject to bank whims....$3000.00 at my bank. First thing they will do is get out a cash transaction report to send into Uncle Sugar.....it is a new world out there folks.....be carefull
Bullionaire, Welcome to this great forum, and thank you for your replies, and your knowledge. By the way, you picked a great handle for the forum! I agree about how the media treats the metals, and Mining stocks. If and when they start touting them, we'll all know where we are with this baby. As far as there being less uses for silver...I think you might hear from GKhan on that one! Thanks again for your insight.

Bullionaire | 12-12-2003 10:17 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Silver divestment along with changes in the way silver contracts were traded (had to stop the Hunt's...they would have busted Wall Street) probably led to drastically lower silver prices... What is silver's future price??? Who knows....I bought a hamburger, large fries and large coke at Burger Street yesterday, total with tax was $5.51- about an ounce of silver....certainly when you look at the effort it took to dig up, or recycle, re-fine and process that ounce of silver, and deliver it into your hands it is in my opinion, worth more.... I do not classify it in the same breath as gold or platinum, but it appears a great value....I fear if it gets much over $10.00, unless new demand appears, a lot of the $4.00-$6.00 will come out of the woodwork....that $48.00 silver of 1980 may have been a once in lifetime....time may prove me wrong...buy metals as an insurance policy, hope you never have to use them...but it is re-assuring to have something that will always have immediate cash value...people touting $200.00 an ounce are in my opinion,dreaming..sounds good in sales pitch....fundamentals say otherwise....

IrishGold | 12-12-2003 10:51 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire Silver divestment along with changes in the way silver contracts were traded (had to stop the Hunt's...they would have busted Wall Street) probably led to drastically lower silver prices... What is silver's future price??? Who knows....I bought a hamburger, large fries and large coke at Burger Street yesterday, total with tax was $5.51- about an ounce of silver....certainly when you look at the effort it took to dig up, or recycle, re-fine and process that ounce of silver, and deliver it into your hands it is in my opinion, worth more.... I do not classify it in the same breath as gold or platinum, but it appears a great value....I fear if it gets much over $10.00, unless new demand appears, a lot of the $4.00-$6.00 will come out of the woodwork....that $48.00 silver of 1980 may have been a once in lifetime....time may prove me wrong...buy metals as an insurance policy, hope you never have to use them...but it is re-assuring to have something that will always have immediate cash value...people touting $200.00 an ounce are in my opinion,dreaming..sounds good in sales pitch....fundamentals say otherwise....
Quote:
Used to be for photographic development...not hardly anymore .. X-ray film development...MRI taking over that function....Correct me if I am wrong.....but silver appears to be less needed...
I don't see the digital takeover that Kodak claims is happening. The quality is still not there and if you want a permanent copy (one where the ink won't fade) you get a print. MRI film is silver based so no change there. Dentist still use X-ray as does every chiropractor and emergency rooms at every hospital. MRI is a speciality soft tissue tool. Can be used for bone but more often to see what is inside the bone. Also, you just said in this thread that "no one has a clue as to the above ground supply" so how can you then make this statement? Quote:
fundamentals say otherwise

Bullionaire | 12-12-2003 11:10 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishGold I don't see the digital takeover that Kodak claims is happening. The quality is still not there and if you want a permanent copy (one where the ink won't fade) you get a print. MRI film is silver based so no change there. Dentist still use X-ray as does every chiropractor and emergency rooms at every hospital. MRI is a speciality soft tissue tool. Can be used for bone but more often to see what is inside the bone. Also, you just said in this thread that "no one has a clue as to the above ground supply" so how can you then make this statement?
Last I read on Kodak and Xrays is that they did not need as much silver in processing..and were striving to eliminate it ,again, could be old info....as far as fundamentals...if there is a silver shortage why has it floundered at these levels for years??? Speaking from personal experience there is plenty of silver in public hands just waiting for a good solid move...that is what I meant by above ground....sorry if I did not get totally specific....

G-khan | 12-12-2003 11:43 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire Silver divestment along with changes in the way silver contracts were traded (had to stop the Hunt's...they would have busted Wall Street) probably led to drastically lower silver prices... What is silver's future price??? Who knows....I bought a hamburger, large fries and large coke at Burger Street yesterday, total with tax was $5.51- about an ounce of silver....certainly when you look at the effort it took to dig up, or recycle, re-fine and process that ounce of silver, and deliver it into your hands it is in my opinion, worth more.... I do not classify it in the same breath as gold or platinum, but it appears a great value....I fear if it gets much over $10.00, unless new demand appears, a lot of the $4.00-$6.00 will come out of the woodwork....that $48.00 silver of 1980 may have been a once in lifetime....time may prove me wrong...buy metals as an insurance policy, hope you never have to use them...but it is re-assuring to have something that will always have immediate cash value...people touting $200.00 an ounce are in my opinion,dreaming..sounds good in sales pitch....fundamentals say otherwise....
1993=199.3 1994=201.6 1995=210.9 1996=212.0 1997=219.0 1998=225.0 1999=226.2 2000=220.2 2001=213.9 2002=205.3 The above is photography demand in millions of ounces.. As you can see it peaked with the SM - I do not expect it to fall much from here... Most of the Silver comes as a by-product of mining other metals and if the economy goes down so does the mining from copper, zinc, lead etc. where 70% of our supply comes from. Here is some reading for you - say the same thing after you get done... http://www.financialsense.com/editor...gan/100202.htm http://www.financialsense.com/transc...ns/Morgan3.htm http://www.silverinstitute.org/news/pr14oct03.html http://www.silverinstitute.org/supply/index.php#supply On the last one look at the supply - the extra needed supply came from Government - I would guess ours and it is now gone.. Silver has been consumed at a rate of more than a 100 million ounces average over the last 15 years. China is industrializing and will eat up a lot of Silver.. If you think all those Chinamen are going to go out and buy digital cameras and computers and printers to boot you are wrong. Yes I do think it will have a small effect. My wife does Creative Memory books and she uses film for it as printed out pictures do not last they fade... You want to read about the Hunts go here. http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...ead.php?t=4827 I do believe you most likely have the most experience selling and dealing with Silver on this site.. Silverstreak also could hang with you on that. There is less Silver above ground in bullion form than Gold - There still is a lot in the form of Silverware - jewelry - Candle holders - trophey's etc. and they will not come to melt till the price is much higher.. 30 an ounce or so.. Silver will go over 50 an ounce and may go much higher...IMHO 1 investor can decide to buy 100 million ounces and it would cost him 560 mill One other thing about Silver the old Silver mines would get 100 ounces a ton and now we see 2-4 a ton the easy Silver has been found and mined and is now being consumed - Gold is hoarded...

Bullionaire | 12-12-2003 11:57 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello If someone seriously believed 560 mill would do it, that is not a lot of money to say an oil shiek, I believe they would already have tried it...good articles and figures....hope you are right....hard for me to be unbiased after selling tons of the stuff...actually ruptured a disc moving bags of the stuff....during my retail days....I once had so many surplus 100 ounce engelhards I built a fort, kneeled in the middle of it , and put a canvas bag over my head and had my picture snapped holding a placard that said " the unknown silver buyer".....true story I hope silver goes to $200.00 an ounce.....of course at that time a gallon of gas will be 50.00 and a loaf of bread 25.00 and and a burger and fries will be $250.00....seriously though, I hope the metals come thru and make everyone a pile of green....

G-khan | 12-13-2003 12:10 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire If someone seriously believed 560 mill would do it, that is not a lot of money to say an oil shiek, I believe they would already have tried it...good articles and figures....hope you are right....hard for me to be unbiased after selling tons of the stuff...actually ruptured a disc moving bags of the stuff....during my retail days....I once had so many surplus 100 ounce engelhards I built a fort, kneeled in the middle of it , and put a canvas bag over my head and had my picture snapped holding a placard that said " the unknown silver buyer".....true story I hope silver goes to $200.00 an ounce.....of course at that time a gallon of gas will be 50.00 and a loaf of bread 25.00 and and a burger and fries will be $250.00....seriously though, I hope the metals come thru and make everyone a pile of green....
The reason I think it will go so high is - remember what investors get like in a Gold rush? They are like sharks in blood and as Gold goes higher everyone will want a piece of the action just like they did back then. The one thing about Silver is with each day more is gone off the face of the earth - you can not say that for Gold as the pile is growing. If the economy takes off thats good for Silver and if it tanks the copper and other mines shut down and investor demand may go wild. Its the next best thing to a sure bet that I can find. The energies also look good from the fundamentals - we are using them up and I do not see cheap energy prices again. Well it could happen if there is a world crash and most of the shipping and flying and industry shuts down... Cheers and have a good weekend all, I am going to bed..:Zzzz:

GoldisMine | 12-13-2003 12:27 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello . Hi All! I am new to buying bullion gold. I found Manhattan Gold Inc. http://idiamondxchange.com/index_files/page0004.htm I just tried/played on the website and also put in my telephone number and name. Two days later they called me at home. Trying to verify my details. Also, They wanted me to send them/wire them/overnight the check. The price is $375/per swiss ounce bar. I placed order for 5 over the internet. During the phone call, I asked them to change the order to 10 bars. They did it at the same price. final cost of each bar is 375 +5 for shipping and handling per bar. Is the company reliable????? Also, I asked them why is their gold cheaper? They said that there is a 90 day wait on the gold. That's the reason. Can anybody advise me further???. Golden regards Gold is mine

Bobcat | 12-13-2003 01:39 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire If someone seriously believed 560 mill would do it, that is not a lot of money to say an oil shiek, I believe they would already have tried it...good articles and figures....hope you are right....hard for me to be unbiased after selling tons of the stuff...actually ruptured a disc moving bags of the stuff....during my retail days....I once had so many surplus 100 ounce engelhards I built a fort, kneeled in the middle of it , and put a canvas bag over my head and had my picture snapped holding a placard that said " the unknown silver buyer".....true story I hope silver goes to $200.00 an ounce.....of course at that time a gallon of gas will be 50.00 and a loaf of bread 25.00 and and a burger and fries will be $250.00....seriously though, I hope the metals come thru and make everyone a pile of green....
You are probably right about what the price of other items would be in the event of $200 silver, but that sounds better than having a fixed income in todays dollars, with the above prices. On the other hand, if silver went to $200. before other prices could catch up, there could be some real buying opportunities. I had an import business out of Central and Southern Mexico during the big peso devaluation in the 80's. When I started the business the peso was 28 to 1, when I gave it up it was over 8000 to 1. My buying trips took 2 to 3 weeks and I would do most of my negotiating at the beginning of the trip and then exchange my money at the end, pay everybody and load up. Sometimes I would realize substantial discounts because of the daily devaluation. I have a feeling we are going to be operating in a similiar environment in the future, I hope not but it doesn't look good. I understood back then, that if they had there money in gold and silver (or dollars,which many of the rich Mexicans did) that they would of been whole throughout the crisis. It is no different for us now.

Bullionaire | 12-13-2003 09:26 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Gold is mine....... buyer beware!!!! Warning Warning Will Robinson....danger danger..... any reputable dealer that did not have the gold for immediate delivery would only ask for a small deposit, say 10%....the internet is good and bad ...could be a big ponzi scheme...will they be in business in 90 days??? GOOD LUCK hope it turns out ok...

Bullionaire | 12-13-2003 09:43 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Let me tell you a true story about discount gold bullion and a "dealer offering free storage" I will not name names, they are since out of business and bankrupted...but they took a lot of people... A dealer purchased a section of a banks safety deposit box section and moved it to his backroom....he was selling gold and silver and offering "free storage for your safety" gave them a key and a receipt. Sounds good you say.....well what he did was use duplicate keys to sell the product over and over again at a discount luring in new people...he used the money for fancy cars,even had signs on buses,expanded his store and hired new staff...imagine if you could sell one ounce of gold and be paid for 25 ounces THIS HAPPENNED IN 1980-81 THIS IS NOT URBAN LEGEND...THERE ARE BAD PEOPLE....

lhslancers | 12-13-2003 10:23 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Don't have to be a seasoned coin dealer to smell this rat. If you haven't given him any money DON'T. Who is gonna sell you under the market? Hello!!!

G-khan | 12-13-2003 11:30 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldisMine . Hi All! I am new to buying bullion gold. I found Manhattan Gold Inc. http://idiamondxchange.com/index_files/page0004.htm I just tried/played on the website and also put in my telephone number and name. Two days later they called me at home. Trying to verify my details. Also, They wanted me to send them/wire them/overnight the check. The price is $375/per swiss ounce bar. I placed order for 5 over the internet. During the phone call, I asked them to change the order to 10 bars. They did it at the same price. final cost of each bar is 375 +5 for shipping and handling per bar. Is the company reliable????? Also, I asked them why is their gold cheaper? They said that there is a 90 day wait on the gold. That's the reason. Can anybody advise me further???. Golden regards Gold is mine
If you sent a check cancel the check - get out if you can... Go to www.tulving.com they are well known and have good prices and many here on GIM buy at tulving............. Welcome to GIM - ask here before you take steps on the metals. After you learn help others.... :coolbeer:

IrishGold | 12-13-2003 12:07 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldisMine . Hi All! I am new to buying bullion gold. I found Manhattan Gold Inc. http://idiamondxchange.com/index_files/page0004.htm I just tried/played on the website and also put in my telephone number and name. Two days later they called me at home. Trying to verify my details. Also, They wanted me to send them/wire them/overnight the check. The price is $375/per swiss ounce bar. I placed order for 5 over the internet. During the phone call, I asked them to change the order to 10 bars. They did it at the same price. final cost of each bar is 375 +5 for shipping and handling per bar. Is the company reliable????? Also, I asked them why is their gold cheaper? They said that there is a 90 day wait on the gold. That's the reason. Can anybody advise me further???. Golden regards Gold is mine
Gold is Mine, get down to your bank the first thing Monday morning and put a stop on that check! With what information you have given them, they could empty your account(s) very easily. Instruct your bank not to honor any request for funds from anybody, unless that request is accompanied by a check with your signature. In addition, since you have sent them the instructions on how to get $3,750 out of your account, I would contact someone in Houston to try and find them. Start your investigation NOW! Do not wait until the 90 days are up. They will be long gone by that time!

lhslancers | 12-13-2003 12:12 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Irish these guys definitely need a lesson. I think it's time for a little of :boxing: :shot: :fight: :fight: :getdown: and not :call:

IrishGold | 12-13-2003 12:20 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by lhslancers Irish these guys definitely need a lesson. I think it's time for a little of :boxing: :shot: :fight: :fight: :getdown: and not :call:
Aye, but Houston is a 3 hour drive for me and a much longer one for you. If Gold is Mine responds to this thread, I will make some inquiries on his behalf. I have people there who may do a little looking for me.

90%RealMoney | 12-13-2003 04:49 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire Gold is mine....... buyer beware!!!! Warning Warning Will Robinson....danger danger..... any reputable dealer that did not have the gold for immediate delivery would only ask for a small deposit, say 10%....the internet is good and bad ...could be a big ponzi scheme...will they be in business in 90 days??? GOOD LUCK hope it turns out ok...
Bullionaire, how come you don't like the 40% bags of Kennedy halves? I know they are not as well known to AJDH (Average Joe Dick Head) but if reselling to a dealer, aren't they still a viable trading item? Or do the premiums on the 90% bags surpass the 40% during price runups? Thank you for your reply.

Bullionaire | 12-13-2003 05:06 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by 90%RealMoney Bullionaire, how come you don't like the 40% bags of Kennedy halves? I know they are not as well known to AJDH (Average Joe Dick Head) but if reselling to a dealer, aren't they still a viable trading item? Or do the premiums on the 90% bags surpass the 40% during price runups? Thank you for your reply.
Hello 90%..LMAO ....AJDH....really...I owe my retirement to the public.... In answer to your question....you are right about premiums....during the "RUSH" as it was called...the wild and woolly days,the 40% clads did not stack up favorably with the 90%....I dealt directly with 2 refineries and they told me due to lower silver content they were more difficult to refine economically.....hence lower price... Also from the investor point of view....storage....most people do not have tons of secured space to stash silver.....90% halves gives more bang for the same amount of storage On the subject of 90% bags...one of my thrills was purchasing bags of 90% silver that had been purchased during the rush.. CONTINUED

Bullionaire | 12-13-2003 05:15 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello During high silver price days dealers were throwing their low grade Barber and Seated coinage as well as commemorative halves into the mix!!! Coins that been sitting around the dealers shop as dead inventory gathering dust were suddenly worth..20-30 times face!!! In the 90's I pulled out many decent collector coins as I had an employee who would search old bags of silver....You could always tell an older bag by a handful sample...we even pulled out overdate 1942 mercuries,1916-d mercs,1932-ds quarters, 1921pds halves, to name a few as dealers did not have time to check each indivdual coin...hope I answered your question...

seb | 12-13-2003 06:45 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Bullionaire, Can we please see the picture??? I think that would make everybody's day!

Bullionaire | 12-13-2003 08:19 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Hi seb.....wish I had kept that picture of "Fort Silver" it was 1991 I believe....I am afraid I lost track of it. It was funny...I will tell you what I did... I believe silver was a little under $4.00 and people were just bailing out of it at the time....must have been a couple hundred...I really did not want to take them to refinery. I ran a store anniversary special, buy an engelhard 100 ounce bar, and get a one ounce silver eagle free.....I sold them all within a week...those were fun times, my competitors thought I was crazy.....my customers absolutely loved it.....

seb | 12-14-2003 02:40 AM
This is all very very very interesting. There is so many things I always wanted to ask to a insider like a dealer, but they always have something to sell you so why bother. The answer could be taken both ways. I understand the line between his interest and mine. It's the same in my business. So here you are, ready for a little brain picking. Great! One thing i would like to know is about the premium when you buy bullion. In silver it can be pretty steep. Last week I've seen 36% over spot to buy 1 oz maple leaf all the way down to 13% for 100 oz. They buy back the 1 oz for 3% premium and the 10 and 100 oz for basically spot price. All these guys seem pretty bearish on silver, which stikes me as strange (how and why do you sell something you don't believe in?), and maybe it is the reason for this price stucture. So my question is : How was it before, during and after the spike in 1980? Will the premium to buy go down and to sell go higher as the mania develop? (more volume = less premium?) how was the average premium structure in the industry back then? you know what i mean.... ok, I really value your input like everybody here i'm sure. ciao seb

Bullionaire | 12-14-2003 09:29 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Morning Seb.....pick my brain? That would be slim pickings this morning.....OK here it goes, not in any particular order, just as my brain throws em out....Premiums on Silver Maples and Silver Eagles.....Nothing material is made for nothing....the mint contracts for silver planchets to produce coins....you have labor and transportation costs...they are sold first to "Primary Dealers" who have been scrutinized and agree to buy large quantities....from there they are sold to secondary dealers and finally to your local dealer....The mint, as well as the primary and secondary dealer has to make a small, and believe me it is..profit. The secondary dealers make a two-way market (buy + sell) so the local dealers have a market no matter what. This same process holds for all other bullion coins...when I was in business I marked silver eagles up about 1.50 for onesies and twosies and by the roll fifty cents each...ten dollar profit on a roll I paid say 135.00....buy the thousand I marked them up a quarter apiece.....keep in mind I retired in 1998...postal rates have increased, the mint has raised premiums several times, all cost of business is up, from natural gas to employee health care to store rent. CONTINUED

Bullionaire | 12-14-2003 09:38 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Where you as a public buyer can do good on silver eagles is purchase from a local dealer....he may have purchased some previous year dates from an investor and would sell at a discount....why you say? The risk of shipping, waiting for your money, hassle of packing and security....he may have bought some and good fortune has struck and silver went up fifty cents....you walk in and he is happy to move them for a quick turn and profit.. Dealers rarely speculate in quantity...whether you are selling gold and silver or paperback books...you want them to move as you have bills to pay... As to the "RUSH" of 1980...I was not in full time retail....I did deal with dealers though...I did hotel buys....the public did get caught up in the frenzy....at this time silver bars were scarce...mostly 90% bags and K-rands coronas mex 50 pesos and the newly introduced gold maple leaf..bags of silver brought good premiums CONTINUED

Bullionaire | 12-14-2003 09:56 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Pricing on silver bars....kind of like potatoes....you purchase one at store it is 69 cents a pound....you buy a 10 pound bag for 2.99.... one ounce rounds have to be produced, handled and counted, most primary and secondary dealers have secure count/vault room....they unlike the eagles are privately produced many times with recycled,refined silver scrap,coinage....their costs are usually less plus there is a lot of silver bars in the market (investors cash in, those bars are resold) 100 ouncers are a quantity item, hence smaller premium.... "Why does a dealer pay so little?".....depends on his needs, market conditions---are people buying the stuff or will it sit in my vault or will I have to ship it to a secondary dealer? Those are his thoughts....if he has a pending order say for 10 100 ouncers which he has locked in the price, and you walk in with ten for sale, he is going to offer more..as they are sold....he doesn't have to order,tie up funds and wait....one ouncers will always bring a little more than a hundred ouncer as they have a premium value.....same with ten ouncers...ESTABLISH A RELATIONSHIP....with a smaller local dealer....it is worth it in long run even if he at times is a little higher than MEGA-DEALER...who has a staff wearing suits, fancy showroom,and drives a Lexus....

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Bullionaire | 12-14-2003 10:11 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello " WHY is the dealer so bearish on silver"" easy to answer....imagine being in a business everyday for ten+ years and answering the same question..."what do you think the metals are going to do?" and being asked this twenty times a day?? Add this to the fact Silver has held out great promise before only to disappoint over and over again.....if you notice, most bullion dealers sell rare coins, supplies and jewelry and maybe sports cards...there is a good reason, it is a tuff business....NUFF for now.....lotsa football today....

hoarder | 12-14-2003 11:24 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Bullionaire, Thanks again for your insightful comments. I do prefer buying from a small dealer, trading with the owner. The cheapest mail order dealer (Tulving, I guess) has to pay shipping and insurance. Even if I pay that price to a local independent in a transaction where no shipping costs are involved, I see numerous advantages. No paper trail. Establishing rapport with someone who may be buying my silver later. Although I haven't heard it mentioned here, I think there must be a little fear factor in large cash transactions for the small local independent. If they buy and sell a high volume of bullion, they are exposing themselves to robbery. If I were such a dealer I would much prefer to do my business with long established clients and would give the best deals to them. One dealer I buy from has sold me a large volume of silver over the last 9 months and after the first 2 months the premiums dropped a couple percent. I think it's because when he sells to me there is little uncertainty, hassle or loss of time. I pay cash, buy all he has with little or no haggling and get in and out in 5 minutes or less. Hopefully when time to sell I will be able to sell to him for cash with complete confidentiality. When you were buying bullion from individuals, did you always pay cash? Do you think this will be a problem in the next spike?

Bullionaire | 12-14-2003 11:37 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Thank you,Nailbender for the kind words.....Butler...I paid cash in most cases...most people in the know only dealt that way......plus we had a local dealer who for years kited checks....cash in, cash out....simple and direct for everyone.....security was and is a big problem....I lived in fear about having a gun stuck in my face....I did some rather unusual things to prevent problems...I am glad to here you are dealing with smaller local..that will work good for you.....future cash dealings.....I think if things get hot and heavy feds will step in...there is a cash reporting system in place for coin/bullion dealers, $10,000. one time or cumulative. It is mostly ignored....good rapport with local on cash would be a must....first name basis the best....

Bullionaire | 12-15-2003 04:21 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Sorry Hoarder, had Butler on my mind when I responded...Kind of amazed metals did not drop off the face of the earth today (monday)after capture of Boogie-man from Iraq....

hoarder | 12-15-2003 04:32 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire Sorry Hoarder, had Butler on my mind when I responded...Kind of amazed metals did not drop off the face of the earth today (monday)after capture of Boogie-man from Iraq....
No need to apologise, I changed my name just to confuse. butler.....er hoarder.

HistoryStudent | 12-15-2003 05:26 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello You are a first class down-to-earth benefit to this forum. Thank you. With your remarks especially about all the 1990s $3.50 to $4.00 silver sold I am rethinking an exit stragedy. I for one appreciated the way you shared your life learning experiences. Before I was thinking 10% at $20 10% at $30 10% at $40 10% at $50 then hold for a while ;>) Now I am going to watch real close the over the $10 range. Still a work in progress - but it's eazy to buy - selling is when it gets tough!

AgAuGal | 12-15-2003 10:23 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent You are a first class down-to-earth benefit to this forum. Thank you. With your remarks especially about all the 1990s $3.50 to $4.00 silver sold I am rethinking an exit stragedy. I for one appreciated the way you shared your life learning experiences. Before I was thinking 10% at $20 10% at $30 10% at $40 10% at $50 then hold for a while ;>) Now I am going to watch real close the over the $10 range. Still a work in progress - but it's eazy to buy - selling is when it gets tough!
Hi HS, that was my exit strategy also except if it happens to hit $60 or more I was going to 20%. There sure are many folks who think silver is going to the moon this time and they are ones who have been in the business longer than I have been alive. So I am still working on my exit strategy.

HistoryStudent | 12-16-2003 11:51 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by AgAuGal Hi HS, that was my exit strategy also except if it happens to hit $60 or more I was going to 20%. There sure are many folks who think silver is going to the moon this time and they are ones who have been in the business longer than I have been alive. So I am still working on my exit strategy.
Being a history nut I researched silver to gold ratio and found that over the last 130 years it has moved from 23 to 1 (1876) to 33 to 1 (early 1900s) to around 72 to 1 today; except for the Hunt Bros. at 61 to 1 (1980). I plan for another rational ratio at 33 to 1. But, if a squeeze hits then 16 to 1 again. The "wild" card is SILVER supply - if they find they have NO more SILVER supply then all bets are off and the ratio can go to historically 3 to 1 as 500 years ago. I'm still leaning to selling or trading into it. As always a work in progress that I watching closely.... This thing will rhyme - probably with a currency crisis in derratives.

HistoryStudent | 12-16-2003 11:54 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent Being a history nut I researched silver to gold ratio and found that over the last 130 years it has moved from 23 to 1 (1876) to 33 to 1 (early 1900s) to around 72 to 1 today; except for the Hunt Bros. at 61 to 1 (1980). I plan for another rational ratio at 33 to 1. But, if a squeeze hits then 16 to 1 again. The "wild" card is SILVER supply - if they find they have NO more SILVER supply then all bets are off and the ratio can go to historically 3 to 1 as 500 years ago. I'm still leaning to selling or trading into it. As always a work in progress that I watching closely.... This thing will rhyme - probably with a currency crisis in derratives.
61 to 1 should have been 16 to 1 Hunt bros. squeeze.

Bullionaire | 12-16-2003 12:14 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello ] History...I think the ratio makes more sense if you throw out the low .....500 years ago world was largely unexplored and technology was not there....keep in mind gold will always be the true store of value....silver IMHO is becoming more of an industrial metal....

lhslancers | 12-16-2003 05:58 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello In biblical times silver /gold ratio was two and three to one

jerry | 12-16-2003 06:49 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello I love that concept "keep in mind gold will always be the true store of value....silver IMHO is becoming more of an industrial metal". In America is the only place on the world that this concept holds water. Virtually every country on the planet has a silver currency. Even America has a faux silver currency (having removed all but the color back in 1965). In this world it is much more common among all peoples to trade in silver than in any other currency. Of course, you must include the clad traded in the US in silver trading in order for this to be true. How difficult would it be to have everyone on earth trade in silver only? Not very, they are extremely familiar with it. Most of us are carrying some silver colored currency in our pockets now and trade with it daily. I cannot remember the last time I put a paper federal reserve note in a parking meter. Even most vending equipment still accepts or dispenses change in silver colored currencies. How difficult would it be to have everyone on earth trade in gold only? Virtually impossible. Most people on earth do not own any gold currency. Very few have ever experienced gold currency as a tradable item. I know that in some places on earth dowries, etc. are gold jewelry. I know that a lot of people hold gold as something that will retain value when it hits the fan. But normal bartering for necessities is not much considered when they set their gold stores aside. Silver is the normal currency around the world, even if it's not real silver. In the event that times get tough and I move to trade one of my real silver dimes for something I need, I cannot see many people fearing that they will confuse one of the clad dimes for a real silver dime. I expect to be dealing with sellers who are more savvy than to believe that a clad dime is the same as a silver dime. When times get tough enough I believe that clad dimes will be good only for shims. I was talking to a teacher the other day about currencies. What prompted this discussion was my interest in his trip to Guatemala. He said that the primary currency they have there is a Kasala(sp?). One can use the silver metal or the paper, they interchange equally. What really fascinated me was that the government recommends the use of the metal currency instead of the paper. He said that the reason for this was wear. The metal lasts longer than the paper! If this attitude holds true of other countries, we could be looking at an interesting thing happening when silver gets tight.

HistoryStudent | 12-16-2003 08:06 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry I love that concept "keep in mind gold will always be the true store of value....silver IMHO is becoming more of an industrial metal". In America is the only place on the world that this concept holds water. Virtually every country on the planet has a silver currency. Even America has a faux silver currency (having removed all but the color back in 1965). In this world it is much more common among all peoples to trade in silver than in any other currency. Of course, you must include the clad traded in the US in silver trading in order for this to be true. How difficult would it be to have everyone on earth trade in silver only? Not very, they are extremely familiar with it. Most of us are carrying some silver colored currency in our pockets now and trade with it daily. I cannot remember the last time I put a paper federal reserve note in a parking meter. Even most vending equipment still accepts or dispenses change in silver colored currencies. How difficult would it be to have everyone on earth trade in gold only? Virtually impossible. Most people on earth do not own any gold currency. Very few have ever experienced gold currency as a tradable item. I know that in some places on earth dowries, etc. are gold jewelry. I know that a lot of people hold gold as something that will retain value when it hits the fan. But normal bartering for necessities is not much considered when they set their gold stores aside. Silver is the normal currency around the world, even if it's not real silver. In the event that times get tough and I move to trade one of my real silver dimes for something I need, I cannot see many people fearing that they will confuse one of the clad dimes for a real silver dime. I expect to be dealing with sellers who are more savvy than to believe that a clad dime is the same as a silver dime. When times get tough enough I believe that clad dimes will be good only for shims. I was talking to a teacher the other day about currencies. What prompted this discussion was my interest in his trip to Guatemala. He said that the primary currency they have there is a Kasala(sp?). One can use the silver metal or the paper, they interchange equally. What really fascinated me was that the government recommends the use of the metal currency instead of the paper. He said that the reason for this was wear. The metal lasts longer than the paper! If this attitude holds true of other countries, we could be looking at an interesting thing happening when silver gets tight.
I like your presentation. No BS! Read this for fun. It really made sense to me on how they cooked silver before they could cook gold. http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials...aga011902.html This is my HISTORICAL all time favorite for realizing how they DUMPED SILVER first. Even a third-grade farmer knows you trade on thing for another. Silver into gold, cows for horses, crops for crops, and like in the "King & I's" Brenner said, "etcetera, etcetera, etcetera." So TPTB had this phoney paper money that they sneeked into the money supply during the Civil War. It made for a three-legged stool. SILVER, GOLD, and FIAT PAPER. They dumped SILVER so they could dump GOLD - the American dummies did not like carring all that weight in their sad pockets! Give it to you, right? Here take 100 ounces each of gold and silver, but it's heavy. Oh well, SILVER was dumped about the last time a decent Democrat ran 1896 - named William Jenning Bryan - "Don't crucify me on (just) a cross of GOLD!" He wanted SILVER to trade back and forth into. The farmers were seen as foolish to the sophiscated well-financed (by paper) and easily defeated Bryan. The bankers did not want some PM metals nut in the Whitehouse not under their PAPER MONIED control. It hampered printing all the phoney paper BS fiat currency. So guess what. How about a war? WWI hit and they stopped gold as currency first quietly - then for real.

jerry | 12-16-2003 09:11 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Good point HistoryStudent: Someone posted a reply that made the case for gold over silver as gold was a better storehouse for value as it was less heavy to put your savings into gold than silver. Someone cannot be thinking if that is their attitude. The value of something is only what someone else is willing to trade for it. I would rather have 73,000 ounces of silver than 1,000 ounces of gold, even though I realize that the silver weighs over 2 tons and would be very difficult to move (without some thought). When (not if) an ounce of silver is priced at 2 ounces of gold, I may consider trading some of my silver for gold (or, thinking about it more, I may not). Our problem stems from the fact that we have been trading frns for things too long now and our attitude is that in order to "lock in profit" we must convert our "current investment" into FRNs. I am trying to alert everyone I know to the FACT that silver has been real money for 6,000 years and will continue to be for at least as long as they live. Unfortunately, they do not know (and do not want to know) how the real money has been debased in order to provide the impetus and wherewithal for the wars and their own enslavement. HistoryStudent is a good handle for you. When you first came on, I was hoping that your contribution would be along these lines and you have not disappointed me. I am learning much. Thank you and thank you for thanking me. No BS.

HistoryStudent | 12-17-2003 12:02 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry Good point HistoryStudent: Someone posted a reply that made the case for gold over silver as gold was a better storehouse for value as it was less heavy to put your savings into gold than silver. Someone cannot be thinking if that is their attitude. The value of something is only what someone else is willing to trade for it. I would rather have 73,000 ounces of silver than 1,000 ounces of gold, even though I realize that the silver weighs over 2 tons and would be very difficult to move (without some thought). When (not if) an ounce of silver is priced at 2 ounces of gold, I may consider trading some of my silver for gold (or, thinking about it more, I may not). Our problem stems from the fact that we have been trading frns for things too long now and our attitude is that in order to "lock in profit" we must convert our "current investment" into FRNs. I am trying to alert everyone I know to the FACT that silver has been real money for 6,000 years and will continue to be for at least as long as they live. Unfortunately, they do not know (and do not want to know) how the real money has been debased in order to provide the impetus and wherewithal for the wars and their own enslavement. HistoryStudent is a good handle for you. When you first came on, I was hoping that your contribution would be along these lines and you have not disappointed me. I am learning much. Thank you and thank you for thanking me. No BS.
You're totally right on the FRN and the trade into mentality. They lose the fact that PMs especially gold and silver are ANOTHER currency PERIOD! They should have had 100% into them for the last year or so to avoid losing the buying power of some 34% on their FRNs. (Federal Reserve notes went from 122 to 89 over the last 15 months or so.) Some foreign goods went up with the Euro from 82 to 123 tonight - that over 42% - but, I'd rather have ANOTHER currency. I find the profit motive great on Gold-Eagle. Trades here, trades there. Always back into the FRN (US dollar). And, frankly, I wonder sometimes if they will be holding dollars, or paper contracts, or stocks, or options on stocks when something real BAD happens. So bad that 150 trillion in derratives goes poof. I wonder how much that paper will really be worth. How about a wheelbarrel full of paper for 10 ounce SILVER bar. Seen pictures of that about Germany when they were trying to pay off their old WWI debt. Is that kinda like us now paying off the WWIII cold war debt? I don't know, do you?

Bullionaire | 12-17-2003 08:55 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello It would be great if countries still had real silver coinage....the inflationary spiral has seen to its demise thru history...if the US currency collapsed and the government with it; as well as the infrastructure,electric grid, natural gas, safe water, gasoline,food supply,well everything went down the toilet...what kind of life would it be?? Huddled around a candle shivering in a barricaded hovel, gnawing on a wild onion,fending off the roaming bands of scavengers with your hoarded weaponry? Add to that the worry of your 4562.5 pounds of silver (very portable if you have a forklift) oops there is no gasoline.. ( 1000 OUNCES GOLD = 62.5 POUNDS ) Yowza!! I can manage that...... I for one hope for the best...hopefully not a repeat of German hyperinflation circa 1920's and the ensuing chaos....I look for a gold re-valuation and new currency eventually....I read somewhere sometime ago that if US gold stockpile was re-valued to $3000.00 per oz it would cover national debt...our fed chairman Greenspan is a "Closet goldbug" Stranger things have happenned..

G-khan | 12-17-2003 09:12 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire ] History...I think the ratio makes more sense if you throw out the low .....500 years ago world was largely unexplored and technology was not there....keep in mind gold will always be the true store of value....silver IMHO is becoming more of an industrial metal....
Yes I agree it is becoming more of an industrail metal - like Platinum...:banana:

Bullionaire | 12-17-2003 09:23 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by G-khan Yes I agree it is becoming more of an industrail metal - like Platinum...:banana:
the only similarity is they are both shiney....one very valuable.....one in everyone's hopes and dreams....

jerry | 12-17-2003 12:48 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Bullionaire: You said: "It would be great if countries still had real silver coinage....the inflationary spiral has seen to its demise thru history...if the US currency collapsed and the government with it; as well as the infrastructure,electric grid, natural gas, safe water, gasoline,food supply,well everything went down the toilet...what kind of life would it be?? Huddled around a candle shivering in a barricaded hovel, gnawing on a wild onion,fending off the roaming bands of scavengers with your hoarded weaponry?" For a preview of what is to happen in the US please visit Argentina. Each individual there wishes that they had saved in silver instead of pesos or dollars. Again, the only country (that I know of) that does not work with a true silver currency is the US. Most countries have some form of silver currency in use daily, including the US. But of course our silver is clad junk, reminds me of our economy and our political system. Shiny on the outside but fake and hard to define in the center.

IrishGold | 12-17-2003 01:01 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
I read somewhere sometime ago that if US gold stockpile was re-valued to $3000.00 per oz it would cover national debt...
Well, I read somewhere this morning, that if gold was valued at $3000.00 per ounce the US Govt stockpile would only cover 1 trillion of the estimated 50 trillion US debt and obligations.

jerry | 12-17-2003 01:08 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello You said: "How about a wheelbarrel full of paper for 10 ounce SILVER bar. Seen pictures of that about Germany when they were trying to pay off their old WWI debt. Is that kinda like us now paying off the WWIII cold war debt? I don't know, do you?" Sometimes we have to think (I know that it hurts). In spite of the current buzz that is popular in the media about how wonderful things are going to be now that we are beating terrorism, the markets are rising, Europe is coming around to our point of view, average life-span is increasing, etc. etc., we have to take a look at the reality of the situation. Debt is absolutely out of control. We have a dictator (I define this as a man who grabbed power illegally - did not win EITHER the popular vote or the electoral college) in the White House. We are not appreciated for our global views around the world. The concentration camps are set up here for those who question the "leaders". Anyone can be jailed forever if their activities can be branded terrorism related. And you want to know whether the US is capable of cancelling 150 trillion dollar debt by printing money until the debt washes? This country is capable of any atrocity that you can dream. Read about the Inquisition and you will have an idea of how bad things will get in the next couple 1,000 years. The Catholic Church has a special hell for all of us who believe in the concept of individualism and "free will". The Jesuit General really does not care whether Irish Gold believes in his power or not. As long as IG kneels and kisses the ring, it is sufficient. And if he will not, death may not visit him as sweetly and softly as he might like. Again, for a view of the future, check the history of the Inquisition. If you are in to Elliot Wave Theory, the Inquisition part I that we saw after ancient Rome fell apart was Wave I. We have just finished Wave II now (the "corrective" wave) and are just starting Wave III. And as we know from EWT, Wave III is the period of time where the greatest movement is found. The first Inquisition was just a warm-up for what is to come now. Hitler did not call his operation the Third Reich for nothing, kids. He was just a little early, is all.

IrishGold | 12-17-2003 01:23 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Read about the Inquisition and you will have an idea of how bad things will get in the next couple 1,000 years.
I'm sure not worried about the next 1,000 years! Let them who live it, worry about it. I've got all I can handle, worrying about the years I and mine will live. Quote:
The Jesuit General really does not care whether Irish Gold believes in his power or not. As long as IG kneels and kisses the ring, it is sufficient. And if he will not, death may not visit him as sweetly and softly as he might like.
I have never kneeled down and kissed anything in my life and I am not about to start now! I have faced Mr. Death on more than one occasion. $hit I've faced him on many, many occasions and I wasn't afraid of him then, I'm not afraid of him now and I won't be afraid of him in the future!

Bullionaire | 12-17-2003 03:11 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry Bullionaire: Again, the only country (that I know of) that does not work with a true silver currency is the US. Most countries have some form of silver currency in use daily, including the US. But of course our silver is clad junk, reminds me of our economy and our political system. Shiny on the outside but fake and hard to define in the center.
Jerry...I am curious as to what countries have an every day circulating true silver currency?? Could you enlighten us? Thank you....

Bullionaire | 12-17-2003 09:40 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Jerry.....loosen up.....it is christmas,, family, turkey,yuletide cheer...smoke wafting out of chimney on snowbound xmas morning....this talk of Hitler,inquisition, unholy catholic pope etc...dredges up bad karma.........have a happy holiday .....

HistoryStudent | 12-17-2003 10:00 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire Jerry.....loosen up.....it is christmas,, family, turkey,yuletide cheer...smoke wafting out of chimney on snowbound xmas morning....this talk of Hitler,inquisition, unholy catholic pope etc...dredges up bad karma.........have a happy holiday .....
Actually a lot of humor could help us all. I see that Platinum just broke out to new SPOT highs moments ago. Around $844, I believe. Should hit it the 1980 high of $900 - gold should follow quickly. Bullionaire Quote, "it is christmas, family, turkey, yuletide cheer...smoke wafting out of chimney on snowbound xmas morning..." Yep! A gold and silver Christmas morning to celebrate the birthday of the Lord Jesus Christ - how fun. "Study the facts, know you are right, take a position, and sit tight!"

Bullionaire | 12-17-2003 11:05 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello [PLATINUM Actually it broke 1100.00 in 1980.....supply dependent on Russia to a large degree and South Africa and Canada to a lessor...the Russkies have always closed lip about production on PGM (platinum group metals) they do tend to dump a bunch at times usually in switzerland....then watch-out, not for the faint of heart....the russians actually made platinum roubles at one time....1840's...they didn't know what else to do with it... At one time, counterfeiters scooped gold out of american double eagles and substituted platinum as it was heavier than gold and held little value at the time...little known fact.

Bullionaire | 12-18-2003 07:45 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire [PLATINUM Actually it broke 1100.00 in 1980.....supply dependent on Russia to a large degree and South Africa and Canada to a lessor...the Russkies have always closed lip about production on PGM (platinum group metals) they do tend to dump a bunch at times usually in switzerland....then watch-out, not for the faint of heart....the russians actually made platinum roubles at one time....1840's...they didn't know what else to do with it... At one time, counterfeiters scooped gold out of american double eagles and substituted platinum as it was heavier than gold and held little value at the time...little known fact.
As a matter of relative " preciousness" aluminum was used in "pattern" coinage (experimental) in the U.S. back in the 1850's-1870's ... it must have been regarded as a hard to come by and potentionally precious metal as some gold coin patterns were produced out of aluminum!!! Talk about technogical advance and changes in perception.....

hoarder | 12-18-2003 01:13 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire Jerry...I am curious as to what countries have an every day circulating true silver currency?? Could you enlighten us? Thank you....
That's the question I was going to ask. Aside from a couple Islamic countries that don't go along with the New World Order, I know of no countries, at least not in the Western world, that place much monetary emphasis on PM's. Has anyone ever seen a country by country breakdown of how much PM backing their currencies have? I'd like to see such a list.

Bullionaire | 12-18-2003 04:05 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder That's the question I was going to ask. Aside from a couple Islamic countries that don't go along with the New World Order, I know of no countries, at least not in the Western world, that place much monetary emphasis on PM's. Has anyone ever seen a country by country breakdown of how much PM backing their currencies have? I'd like to see such a list.
I would like to see such a list....I know the Swiss for years backed theirs by a high percentage in gold...believe they had a national referendum to reduce drastically or remove any backing at all a few years back.....anybody on board have any information??? Visited Zurich twenty years ago, at that time most banks had a numismatic department..posted daily prices on tons of U.S, and european gold coins as well as gold bars...huge interest at time....lots of U.S. twenties ended up here in mid 1930's.....even to this day hoards turn up occaisionally....mostly in Brilliant Unc condition...

Ageka | 12-20-2003 10:03 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire I would like to see such a list....I know the Swiss for years backed theirs by a high percentage in gold...believe they had a national referendum to reduce drastically or remove any backing at all a few years back.....anybody on board have any information??? Visited Zurich twenty years ago, at that time most banks had a numismatic department..posted daily prices on tons of U.S, and european gold coins as well as gold bars...huge interest at time....lots of U.S. twenties ended up here in mid 1930's.....even to this day hoards turn up occaisionally....mostly in Brilliant Unc condition...
Belgium still has an official source for goldprices and they are cheap A few percentage points over spot at any exchange agent who makes his living changing YEN ,Pounds, Dollars etc.. http://www.munters.be/servlet/javapa...t_or_new&lg=nl Note that the US coins are only bought, not sold because when offered for classification they are always better classed than expected and sold outside Belgium Bagmark free uncirculated St Gaudens 20$ only go 404 Euros I would never ever sell at that price agk

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Ageka | 12-20-2003 10:10 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Note that 120 year old Belgian 20 FF go for less then 64 Euros 5.80 grams of pure gold is 62 Euros of gold In 1975 there was a 35 % historical value which disappeared completely Same story on Napoleon, Old English,Guilders, Vrenellis etc AGK

Bullionaire | 12-20-2003 10:12 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello [QUOTE=Ageka]Belgium still has an official source for goldprices and they are cheap A few percentage points over spot at any exchange agent who makes his living changing YEN ,Pounds, Dollars etc.. http://www.munters.be/servlet/javapa...t_or_new&lg=nl Note that the US coins are only bought, not sold because when offered for classification they are always better classed than expected and sold outside Belgium Bagmark free uncirculated St Gaudens 20$ only go 404 Euros I would never ever sell at that price Thank you, Ageka....All those european twenties undoubtably end up in U.S.made PCGS and NGC plastic slabs....unless things have changed, the europeans do not put much stock in grading to the Nth degree....

Ageka | 12-20-2003 10:26 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello [QUOTE=Bullionaire] Quote:
Originally Posted by Ageka Belgium still has an official source for goldprices and they are cheap A few percentage points over spot at any exchange agent who makes his living changing YEN ,Pounds, Dollars etc.. http://www.munters.be/servlet/javapa...t_or_new&lg=nl Note that the US coins are only bought, not sold because when offered for classification they are always better classed than expected and sold outside Belgium Bagmark free uncirculated St Gaudens 20$ only go 404 Euros I would never ever sell at that price Thank you, Ageka....All those european twenties undoubtably end up in U.S.made PCGS and NGC plastic slabs....unless things have changed, the europeans do not put much stock in grading to the Nth degree....
I got an introduction to European coingrading FDC you see no marks with a magnification glass Superb ( EF )you see no marks with the naked eye Almost superb (aEF) you see a few bagmarks with the naked eye VF to aEF coins having circulated with marks but no loss of surface The only grading problem is that people do not accept coins that have been cleaned ; those are bought at melt or 95 % of gold!!! and in 1975 you lost 40% of value I read a way of solving this problem Put coin for few days on shelve above french frier pot turn and do the same on other side ( a Mc Donalds would come in handy ) The condensed grease then can be neutralised with dust you wipe off French wine bottles from your wine cellar ( ten year old dust ) Presto uncleaned , dirty and 40 % more value

Ageka | 12-20-2003 10:34 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello To clean gold coins Dip without stirring or moving in 98% pure alcohol for as long as necessary to degrease or to remove dirt or traces of coin holder Clean with distillated water The result may be too clean for European taste so this is not a recommendation

IrishGold | 12-20-2003 11:40 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Put coin for few days on shelve above french frier pot turn and do the same on other side ( a Mc Donalds would come in handy ) The condensed grease then can be neutralised with dust you wipe off French wine bottles from your wine cellar ( ten year old dust ) Presto uncleaned , dirty and 40 % more value
And also decreasing by as much as 50%, the value of the bottle of wine from your wine cellar, which may be worth more than the gold coin!

hoarder | 12-20-2003 11:55 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Judging by those standards, the inside of my house must be worth a fortune!

Bullionaire | 12-20-2003 12:23 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder Judging by those standards, the inside of my house must be worth a fortune!
Mcdonalds greaser huh??? Had not heard that one.....tell you one that works well on silver...takes time though....sunny, wooden window sill....works like a charm but very slow.....had a dealer acquaintance who used to tone silver dollars by putting them in hard boiled eggs and bake them....easy to detect though...silver tones easily when exposed to sulphur and heat under right conditions......I personally prefer old originally toned silver coins...all the new collectors want bright and shiney on their slabbed coins..think they aquaint that with quality....kinda like the racoon and the shiney pebble in the stream....there is actually a good market for fantastically toned silver coins.....eye appeal means everything...

Ageka | 12-20-2003 05:07 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello I was busy this evening Somebody on eBay is selling 198 Vrenellis from 1913 to 1947 and some went below spot price Go figure your Chrismas present below cost Incidently I have 500 Francs coins which are partly silver and nice on the side which was on the bottom of the drawer but not nice on the upper side ( I forgot about them for 20 years ) Do I put the corroded side in Sunlight ? I do not know anything about silver since that is VAT succeptible Belgium does not recognise silver as an investment but as a luxury item with VAT AGK

Bullionaire | 12-20-2003 05:11 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by Ageka I was busy this evening Somebody on eBay is selling 198 Vrenellis from 1913 to 1947 and some went below spot price Go figure your Chrismas present below cost Incidently I have 500 Francs coins which are partly silver and nice on the side which was on the bottom of the drawer but not nice on the upper side ( I forgot about them for 20 years ) Do I put the corroded side in Sunlight ? I do not know anything about silver since that is VAT succeptible Belgium does not recognise silver as an investment but as a luxury item with VAT AGK
Not familiar with that coin....if it is not valuable I would get a good silver cleaning dip product (assuming it is toning) and try it.....make sure you rinse very well and pat dry....

AgAuGal | 12-21-2003 12:29 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello I had someone call me this past week (at work, don't know how she got my number, World Wide Coins I think she said) trying to sell me Napoleons as some really special deal - red flag went up immediately. I am not familiar with this coin, can anyone post a pic of this coin. Anyone heard of this company? Worries me all of a sudden it seems like everyone is trying to sell gold. Could this be the peak?? I hope not. But I am also not hoping for $1000 gold either.

Bullionaire | 12-21-2003 08:47 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by AgAuGal I had someone call me this past week (at work, don't know how she got my number, World Wide Coins I think she said) trying to sell me Napoleons as some really special deal - red flag went up immediately. I am not familiar with this coin, can anyone post a pic of this coin. Anyone heard of this company? Worries me all of a sudden it seems like everyone is trying to sell gold. Could this be the peak?? I hope not. But I am also not hoping for $1000 gold either.
A lot of operations are out there selling collectables....knowledge is power....Napoleon was on many collector gold coins in France...not bullion....if you want to collect foreign gold coins get a Krause world coin book..it has metal content, value etc....nothing wrong with these as long as purchased near bullion...where people go wrong is they are called by these "ex-used car dealers" who work on commission, and are sold 'SPECIAL DEALS'...the slabbed grading mania has for some time infected foreign gold....the truth is, there are lots of european gold hoards, and they when found are usually undisturbed gem quality...they should warrant LITTLE premium.....

Ageka | 12-21-2003 10:56 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by AgAuGal I had someone call me this past week (at work, don't know how she got my number, World Wide Coins I think she said) trying to sell me Napoleons as some really special deal - red flag went up immediately. I am not familiar with this coin, can anyone post a pic of this coin. Anyone heard of this company? Worries me all of a sudden it seems like everyone is trying to sell gold. Could this be the peak?? I hope not. But I am also not hoping for $1000 gold either.
http://www.munters.be/servlet/javapa...t_or_new&lg=nl Napoleons come in 5,10, 20,40,50,100 French Franc sizes in gold The 20 FF size is worth less then 63 Euro see link above non numismatic coinprices in Belgium Essentially over here they are spot price plus a few percentage points see panda link for picture http://www.pandaamerica.com/subcateg...categ=27&grp=1 The 5,10,40 etc are a complete different story An average coin will go 40% over spot But then again their amounts are limited Around 1975 the 20FF went for 35% over spot When this happens again I will know the peak is near AGK

Ageka | 12-21-2003 11:21 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire Not familiar with that coin....if it is not valuable I would get a good silver cleaning dip product (assuming it is toning) and try it.....make sure you rinse very well and pat dry....
They are 83.5 % silver rest is copper Bottom is toned nice yellow , this side was on wood of drawer Top is dark black Coins have only sentimental value ( less then 7 Euros apiece ) AGK

Bullionaire | 12-21-2003 11:39 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by Ageka They are 83.5 % silver rest is copper Bottom is toned nice yellow , this side was on wood of drawer Top is dark black Coins have only sentimental value ( less then 7 Euros apiece ) AGK
A quick fix if they have no collector value....take some baking soda and water and make a paste and rub coins gently...this should never be done to coins with value as it may leave extremely tiny hairline scratches....

Ageka | 01-02-2004 10:16 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Bullionnaire Is there any internet site where one can find the honest value of non American gold coins ? Or even look at the stats for those coins ? I found several sites for American coins so that is no problem AGK

Bullionaire | 01-03-2004 10:44 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by Ageka Bullionnaire Is there any internet site where one can find the honest value of non American gold coins ? Or even look at the stats for those coins ? I found several sites for American coins so that is no problem AGK
Hello Ageka...I know of no such site.....however....a good source for many coins and bullion prices and values is a weekly publication called "Coin World" been around since 1960.....invaluable pricing information.....lots of dealers advertising reasonable gold and silver deals.....lots of interesting articles on all aspects.....I believe if you called their subscription department at 1-800-253-4555....and express interest they will send you a couple free copies....it is only about 50.00 for a full year....I have subscribed since 1963 I find it invaluable.....

AgAuGal | 01-03-2004 03:22 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Thanks for the comments/links regarding the Nepoleon. Learned something new today. Thank you !!!!

Ageka | 01-04-2004 07:24 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Bullionaire Do you know of a site were pictures show the difference between the MS grades ? I was shocked to see a picture of a slabbed MS 64 with a scratch on it here that would grade only almost extremely fine like the majority of the French 40 ff Napoleons AGK

Bullionaire | 01-06-2004 09:30 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by Ageka Bullionaire Do you know of a site were pictures show the difference between the MS grades ? I was shocked to see a picture of a slabbed MS 64 with a scratch on it here that would grade only almost extremely fine like the majority of the French 40 ff Napoleons AGK
Sometimes picture's are deceiving, could have been scratch on holder? When buying slabbed coins stick with the best companies....NGC and PCGS have been around and have good credibility.....there are a lot of " Johnny come latelies " that are out there grading coins just for the fees....some of there graded coins look like they were graded blindfolded.....In answer to your question about grading sites with pictures, I know of none....there are books out there that go into grading in depth but mostly for US series coins...my favorite is Official guide to coin grading and counterfeit detection by PCGS..

gpond | 01-06-2004 10:43 AM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello My 2 cents: Always buy the coin -- not the package. Slabbed graded coins do help create a market and give some feeling of assurance, but in the end it is the coin - not the package - that counts. I have heard stories from my dealer also of these overgraded coins. Standards can mutate from time to time and also some dealers have more sway with some grading companies if you catch my drift. Figures don't lie, but liars figure. BTW, I'm not saying don't buy slabbed coins. Just don't believe everything you read.

agnut | 01-06-2004 01:06 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello Quote:
Originally Posted by gpond My 2 cents: Always buy the coin -- not the package. Slabbed graded coins do help create a market and give some feeling of assurance, but in the end it is the coin - not the package - that counts. I have heard stories from my dealer also of these overgraded coins. Standards can mutate from time to time and also some dealers have more sway with some grading companies if you catch my drift. Figures don't lie, but liars figure. BTW, I'm not saying don't buy slabbed coins. Just don't believe everything you read.
Gpond, I agree, buy the coin and not the holder. I was a serious collector for several years and trying to put together some of the finest sets. We used to say that there was a mint state ( or proof state ) 65 hiding out in a 66 holder. This meant that the coin was overgraded for its true condition. Before I quit my collecting I saw many coins that were, in my opinion, seriously overgraded. The difference in price between a 65 and 66 condition can be dramatic, so be careful. When I collected, the PCGS holder was more desirable than the NGC holder. I bought both types since I was buying the coin and not the plastic. I never bought any other brand coin holder. Sometimes, one could get the coin changed from a NGC holder to a PCGS holder without dropping a grade, but it was a risky affair. I heard that some coins had been submitted for a holder change or upgrade many, many times and each submission cost about $15 whether you got an upgrade or holder change or not. Some coins in particular year and grade only had a population of 2 or 3 so it might take years or never to find one in order to fill out a set. At the end of my collecting I saw a lot of coins come on the market with high grades. It was not possible to determine if they had been �busted� out of old holders and given a higher grade or raw coins that were being found and graded for the first time. I just saw the populations increasing and had to look at this with skepticism. The difference between the retail and dealer buyback price can be dramatic. For instance, a coin at retail may be $1,700 and the buyback may be $1,100. However, the same coin may be consigned to a dealer at retail of $1,700 and you would get 10 percent less or whatever the dealer charged for showing the coin. This takes time and if you are not in a cash crunch I found to be the best way to liquidate. There are, as in all businesses, sharks who will devour you without hesitation. I just have to wonder what the price and liquidity will be for coins in a worldwide financial collapse. I would recommend that a collector have only an amount that he can totally lose or store away the coins for many years and not be worried about the price. In other words, be a collector for the beauty and history and not an anxious investor. I have been both and the former is a lot of fun; the latter gave me nothing but a lot of anxiety and loss. For the last several years I have collected enamel on copper paintings. I understand that they are fired in an oven at over 1000 degrees, sometimes over 100 times on order to get the colors and detail just right. They hang on my walls and give me pleasure daily. They are relatively inexpensive and therefore I do not care if they go up or down in price. See, collector and not investor. I had an expensive lesson but one that I will remember for the rest of my life. By the way, collecting silver rounds can be fun. There must be thousands of different designs. This could be one of the few instances where collector and investor as the same person makes sense. I have often wondered if this would be a good idea for a swap meet. Could you imagine the impact of thousands of sellers at thousands of swap meets across America, all telling the silver story ( of course, passing out the website addresses like GIM and Ted Butler ). The seller could pass on the silver story to the public while making a small profit. That way everyone would win except the manipulators (no love lost there ). "That which we send into the lives of others, will surely come back into our own." Man arrives as a novice at each stage of his life. Nicholas Chamfort agnut

lhslancers | 01-06-2004 01:16 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello I'm a rank novice when it comes to coin collecting but I saw the handwriting on the wall when the community went from ms60 and ms65 to all these subgrades. You can get a great deal of grading differences from one grader to the next.

Ageka | 01-06-2004 02:10 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello I do not have a single slabbed coin and never saw one in real life For comparison I often go look at fotos of Pandaamerica site But I am searching for a site that would show fotos of non slabbed coins but with a rating attached I know somebody who works for a 3 man goldexchange office and he says he is always amazed when a coin of his office is slabbed by the high grade allocated to this coin We have FDC ( no blemish under magnification ) Superb ( no blemish seen with the eye ) almost Superb Very Fine ( coin has circulated beyond a doubt ) So you can guess that virtually all coins are advertised as almost superb and then you have to decide for yourself what you want to pay for this coin Luckaly in Belgium you can walk into any exchange agents office and buy coins for a few percentage points over spot for bullion coins and bullion is a very broad definition ( special 50 ECU mints go for bullion price ) http://www.munters.be/servlet/javapa...t_or_new&lg=nl These guys only buy 20$ coins at the rated prices AGK

Ageka | 01-13-2004 01:24 PM
Re: Retired coin/bullion dealer on board--Hello I just found out that if you try to increase the amound of gold in the EEC that they charge you 6% VAT plus cost In other words you can trade the available gold in the EEC without tax but the moment you try to increase the amount the taxpeople want 6% This seems to be against EEC law and against Belgian law but they charge you anyway AGK

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