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- - numismatic/bullion spread (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=24156)

eat_beef | 09-23-2005 03:50 PM
numismatic/bullion spread o.k., before everyone jumps my case about numismatics being a rip-off, i'm just trying to figure out a strategy......... can anyone, especially bullionaire, silver streak, or someone else who was a dealer last go round, tell me what happened in the late '70s spike with numismatics verses bullion? did nums retain their premium? did it grow? i'm sure there are opportunities here at different points of the bull to perhaps trade back and forth and give your hoard a little boost. (hate to admit it, but) being as i already got raped by swiss america on some liberties,:bawling: i'm trying to figure out the best place to jump ship. thanks in advance, :eating: beef if you are going to be stupid, you've got to be tough

Indy | 09-23-2005 04:12 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread some info here: http://www.golddealer.com/goldset.htm

Maple Leaf Steve | 09-23-2005 05:27 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread OK I will go first.... Numismatics is a BIG Rip Off !!!! :aetsch: MLS

eat_beef | 09-23-2005 06:03 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread mls- did i mention it was silver? lol!

Bullionaire | 09-23-2005 07:38 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Not sure where you are heading; so here it goes�keep in mind an awful lot has changed. (including my once fine tuned memories) Circa 1979, there was no ngc or pcgs, any bu coin with a minimum of marks (depending on mutual agreement) WAS called �choice Unc or �Gem� grading abuse was rampant. Other than anacs, nothing with credibility came along till the mid-late 1980�s. Higher metal prices always seemed to help numismatics (more interest, more money to toss around) In the mid to late 1970�s, you could put numismatics in the retirement keough plans�that ended around 1980...I was at a Central State show when it was announced, and the air went out of the market� I opened my store in 1981. Missed a good part of the action, I did a lot of hotel buys till then. (My favorite hotel memory is buying a bunch of silver dollars including a couple seated and a 1799 bust type for ten apiece) I remember going to an ANA show in 1964 and the dealers were trading Bust dollars by the roll!!! 1000.00 per roll of twenty!! I saw and have not heard of it since, a 1955 TRIPLE DIE cent !!! I was a teenager with Ten dollars burning a hole, and bought a piece of sh*t philly 1960 small date cent�(sorry for the ramble) In 1981 gold was still 6 and change silver 12 plus�a lot of my activity was in bullion and scrap. No serious time for rare coins,most wanted gold or silver. There was a fair amount of interest in twenties, as there was no US bullion product and many wanted US rather than K-rands or maples (there were no fractional maples yet). There were no easy to locate silver 1 oz rounds either, mostly A-mark rectangles, 90% was highly sought after. In 1982 silver rounds boomed...(re-cycled from 1979-81 meltings? Strategic stockpile sales?) If you look at the history of � Rare Coins� may I suggest a book, The History of United States Coinage as Illustrated by the Garrett Collection by Bowers. I personally think the best buy currently is graded ms 61-63 saints. Very low premium, a graded product, and almost an ounce of gold. Looking at the price of coins over the past decades, nice collectable stuff has done rather well�..educate yourself, and avoid the T.V. shills�I always told buyers, collect for fun, and if you make a profit, so much the better�

Sparky | 09-23-2005 09:01 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire There was a fair amount of interest in twenties, as there was no US bullion product and many wanted US rather than K-rands or maples
Hmmm. This sentence struck a chord with me. When bullion got popular with the general public, they were more comfortable buying the old Double Eagle coins, rather than the straight bullion play of the K-Rands and Maples, simply because they were U.S. products. I have always suspected this. This is one of the reasons that I think the additional premium tacked onto the current American Gold Eagles is worth paying. Americans are very parochial; when the general public starts buying, they will be seeking U.S. products first. Local dealers tell me that they are most comfortable buying back Eagles, because they are the easiest for them to re-sell. What do you think of this, MLS?

lhslancers | 09-23-2005 09:42 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Prices skyrocket and you won't recover the premium. Numismatics is a tougher game than trading the miners. Like Bullionaire said enjoy the coins but don't expect to make any money. You're not in their league. The stuff you are looking at a real afficionado wouldn't buy a soda with.

Maple Leaf Steve | 09-24-2005 03:43 AM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkly Hmmm. This sentence struck a chord with me. When bullion got popular with the general public, they were more comfortable buying the old Double Eagle coins, rather than the straight bullion play of the K-Rands and Maples, simply because they were U.S. products. I have always suspected this. This is one of the reasons that I think the additional premium tacked onto the current American Gold Eagles is worth paying. Americans are very parochial; when the general public starts buying, they will be seeking U.S. products first. Local dealers tell me that they are most comfortable buying back Eagles, because they are the easiest for them to re-sell. What do you think of this, MLS?
There is big demand worldwide these days for 24K bullion. Times have changed. Panda's - Maples and Kangaroos are slowly starting to out sell those 92% Eagles We have Canadians that come down over the border to sell their Maples in Seattle. My local dealer pays them off in greenbacks. This is how my local dealer gets most of his Maples to sell. And as soon as he buys them he sells them! (to people like me) He can't seem to keep Maples in stock let alone Pandas and Roo's But he has those ugly Eagles in stock all the time 365 days out of the year. Anotherwords, all 24K bullion coins are out selling the Eagles up here where I live. MLS

Bullionaire | 09-24-2005 09:04 AM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread The times do a change.....I believe the eagle is going 24K.....my wife made an interesting comment regarding 24k....she has been buying at melt or less, nice 24k bangles and baht chains on ebay. Since this latest spike in gold, she commented hardly any are being offered. It could be a worldwide event. People are waking up to the fact there is a lot of bad things happening. Hurricanes, Disease, Housing Bubble, Currency Bubbles, the list goes on.... I had to laugh outloud at the news last nite.....a woman was confident the Lord would protect her two sons at Rice University...possibly in hurricanes path..."they are in the hands of the lord," she proclaimed.....hey DUMB ASS....who sent the hurricane????? On a lighter note....I heard the new Italian Navy has Glass bottom boats? Why? So they can see the OLD Italian Navy Boats.... Have a good one..

Sturdly | 09-24-2005 11:57 AM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Numismatics are on a completely different track than the bullion. As an example a common date gold MS63 1904 Liberty double eagle could be had at retail for around $715 while the bullion price was under $450 earlier this summer. Now they are retailing at $800 plus and the supply is dwindling. Most of these coins are repatriated from Europe where they were shipped in mint fresh bags prior to the last confiscation in 1933. This supply will eventually dry up and prices will rise more quickly. Plan on holding for 5 or more years before a trade will turn a profit due to the dealer discounts and mark ups which vary widely! I've identified a couple of dealers which I have cultivated a relationship with. One will buy for about $20 less than the other sells for and both will swap for bullion when the time comes. As for silver the highest grade you can afford on any CC mint Morgan will do well no mater what. Other graded MS63 to MS66 are 3 to 5 times under their previous highs and will be as unpredictable as the bullion itself. My long shot Vegas money hunch is that in 10 years or less the wealthier Chinese will start collecting both of these. Displaying them like a trophy, symbols of their triumph over the once proud and mighty but now humble US economy. Not quite one of those predictions with a precise date but a future trend? You'll probably do better holding on now that you own them. Don't dump them at a loss. Now go buy some bullion. I think one should hold both just for a little balance.

HistoryStudent | 09-24-2005 01:55 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Lots of info herein: http://www.pcgs.com/prices/ compare those RETAIL prices to bullion.

wulfgar60 | 09-24-2005 07:32 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturdly Numismatics are on a completely different track than the bullion. As an example a common date gold MS63 1904 Liberty double eagle could be had at retail for around $715 while the bullion price was under $450 earlier this summer. Now they are retailing at $800 plus and the supply is dwindling. Most of these coins are repatriated from Europe where they were shipped in mint fresh bags prior to the last confiscation in 1933. This supply will eventually dry up and prices will rise more quickly. Plan on holding for 5 or more years before a trade will turn a profit due to the dealer discounts and mark ups which vary widely! I've identified a couple of dealers which I have cultivated a relationship with. One will buy for about $20 less than the other sells for and both will swap for bullion when the time comes. As for silver the highest grade you can afford on any CC mint Morgan will do well no mater what. Other graded MS63 to MS66 are 3 to 5 times under their previous highs and will be as unpredictable as the bullion itself. My long shot Vegas money hunch is that in 10 years or less the wealthier Chinese will start collecting both of these. Displaying them like a trophy, symbols of their triumph over the once proud and mighty but now humble US economy. Not quite one of those predictions with a precise date but a future trend? You'll probably do better holding on now that you own them. Don't dump them at a loss. Now go buy some bullion. I think one should hold both just for a little balance.
Very interesting. It become a question in future years when fiat hits some snags and gold shines. Will a wider interest be shown in the history of gold coinage. Will it become fashionable amongst the new rich? I would say most likely! This market has bottomed, there big money to be made during a boom. And there is only so much gold in coinage. Meanwhile the Reserve Bank of Australia is divesting itself of some of the last of its stolen loot! http://www.rba.gov.au/MediaReleases/2005/mr_05_11.html

lhslancers | 09-24-2005 08:00 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire The times do a change.....I believe the eagle is going 24K.....my wife made an interesting comment regarding 24k....she has been buying at melt or less, nice 24k bangles and baht chains on ebay. Since this latest spike in gold, she commented hardly any are being offered. It could be a worldwide event. People are waking up to the fact there is a lot of bad things happening. Hurricanes, Disease, Housing Bubble, Currency Bubbles, the list goes on.... I had to laugh outloud at the news last nite.....a woman was confident the Lord would protect her two sons at Rice University...possibly in hurricanes path..."they are in the hands of the lord," she proclaimed.....hey DUMB ASS....who sent the hurricane????? On a lighter note....I heard the new Italian Navy has Glass bottom boats? Why? So they can see the OLD Italian Navy Boats.... Have a good one..
Word. You have to believe the Great Creator has a sense of humor. Me lo siento. :D

silverwood | 09-24-2005 10:09 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread [QUOTE; "If you look at the history of � Rare Coins� may I suggest a book, The History of United States Coinage as Illustrated by the Garrett Collection by Bowers" I went to two of the four sales that they conducted to dispose of Garrett's collection. I'm still holding the lots that I purchased. Prices were astronomical for those days as everone wanted a piece of that historic collection.

Bullionaire | 09-25-2005 09:15 AM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread I will venture those lots you purchased are worth quite a bit more than what you paid....even though at the time it seemed like too much....

Silverity | 09-26-2005 05:08 AM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread I hold some numismatical for the sake of diversification, satifaction and against confiscation. Price wise, the silver coins average out at twice spot price, but you can buy as low as bullion coin premiums so long as you shop around and don't go for the rarer items.

lhslancers | 09-26-2005 05:54 AM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverity I hold some numismatical for the sake of diversification, satifaction and against confiscation. Price wise, the silver coins average out at twice spot price, but you can buy as low as bullion coin premiums so long as you shop around and don't go for the rarer items.
Roland do you think some obscure laws on the books currently will keep your stash safe from these Nazis?

Maple Leaf Steve | 09-26-2005 06:38 AM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Once the SHTF in this country rare gold pieces and rare silver dollars will be worth only their weight in gold and silver. I know one thing... I will never have to worry about bartering with an ounce of silver that was at one time worth $500.00 Because as our economy slips into a deep recession those Numismatic coins will become less and less valuable. When people don't have the money to buy them, then there will be less demand for them. If there is less demand for them then they will lose value. Simple as that! But if you folks want to collect Numismatic coins then knock your selves out and enjoy! Just count me out of the pawnsy scheme, OK! :laugh: MLS

AuNuggets | 09-26-2005 11:49 AM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread "Pawnsey Scheme" ????? Now there is a classic ! haha I agree with Steve, numismatics are a very esoteric field, and are "valued" at the whim of what the dealer establishment can collectively convince the widest range of suckers that they are "worth"...... VERY FEW "rare coins" actually being anything close to "rare". Too many people have the misconception that "OLD" automatically means "RARE", which obviously isn't the case. A common silver dollar for instance, contains a little over 3/4 ounce of silver, but cannot be had for anything close to "junk" or melt prices simply because of their implied "numismatic value". These things are available by the hundreds of thousands (even in BU grades) and are not even "scarce" for the most part. As recently as the late 60s-early 70s, they were still available at face value in places like Las Vegas (and at most banks)......all you could haul. A neighbor friend that use to frequent Vegas back in the late 60s use to bring home 100 coins or more on each trip to pay to the local kids for doing his yard work, washing his cars, etc. "Trading stock" of silver dollars in our neighborhood was never in short supply, and all of the kids had nice little collections. In the heydays of the numismatic markets (late 70s to the late 80s), there was still alot of money to be made in coins, moreso before the grading services got into the act of profiting from the ether (imaginary "value added" in the way of a grading opinion and a couple of pieces of plastic). But it has always been a "greater fool" market based on what the next person was willing to pay for perceived rarity compared to the last buyer. Back in the early teletype marketing and valuation days (COINS Network), there was alot of abuse in the markets in individuals or groups buying up a certain item in vast quantities (proof sets come to mind), thereby dwindling availability and stocks and running up the prices only to turn around on the run-up and dump their supplies back on the market at the artificially inflated prices. This was far from "unusual activity" in the numismatic markets. But one thing that needs to be kept in mind is that the ULTIMATE END USER of any numismatic item is the COLLECTOR, not the dealer or the investor. Once something is priced out of the collector market, or hyped beyond true rarity for the sake of "marketing", you have to ask yourself if you are just one of the "greater fools" in line with all the others. If you like numismatics for pure aesthetic reasons, and understand true rarity and historical importance vs. marketing hype, willing to take the time and dedication to learn the hobby with intentions of "collecting for collectings sake", with financial gain being secondary to the pure enjoyment involved, then collecting can be a very rewarding and educational hobby. If you are just in it for the money or profits, you will likely do much better sticking to the less esoteric field of bullion buying, trading, and investing. You can be a numismatic collector or you can be a numismatic investor......but rarely can you effectively be both without a very deep understanding and involvement of the marketplace. Even those "most in the know" have a tendency to get taken and lose money on numismatic investments. I know dealers who have been in the business for many years who will openly admit to the difficulties in "honestly" making money in the coin business. The old saying "The Bears make money, the Bulls make money, but the PIGS always get slaughtered" rings very true in the coin business. At a recent coin show, I watched a local dealer buy several nice Unc. $20 Liberties and Saints from a gentleman who had entered the show, only to put them in his case for sale at several hundred dollars (and grades) higher than he had just bought them for. The same seller saw them priced and graded before leaving the show, and needless to say, he was not a happy camper. I also heard him say he would NEVER BUT NEVER EVER buy another numismatic coin from "that bunch of crooks", apparently indicating the show dealership in general rather than just the single buyer involved. Too often it seems, that has become the rule rather than the exception with the numismatic crowd. Considering the numbers dropping like flies from the "numismatic" ranks, it's a wonder there is much of a "collector base" remaining at all. Like many other hobbies, greed eventually has an adverse effect when reality begins to set in. From a standpoint of personal experience, if you want to be involved in numismatics, stick with high grade series "key" dates or varieties, high grade type pieces, and the truly "rare". Everything else is just commercial crap.

Silverity | 09-27-2005 06:02 AM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Lhslancers, I guess nothing is guaranteed in life. When the Bolsheviks took over in 1917 Russia, they basically tortured and imprisoned anyone they thought had gold until they owned up. In that kind of situation, your only recourse was to have left the country beforehand. If you think the government will be less vicious than that, then you can take some action to hedge against confiscation. Basically, the higher the price of silver, the more likely it is to be taken via confiscation or taxes on windfall profits. SInce people do not carry large collections of numismatics, I think they will be exempted.

tomexxtra | 09-27-2005 08:25 AM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Numismatic verses Bullion. I would like to make a small point here. I told my brother years ago to buy the bullion not the fancy stuff. Let's say Peace dollars not Morgan dollars. Why? We will say at this present time you should be able to buy 110 Peace dollars [about $9 @] for the same price as 90 Morgan dollars [about $11.00 @]. Now when Silver went exploding in price everybody was buying these coins at $35 to $40 dollars apiece. You went to a coin dealer for a better price, lots a luck, he could care less. You were number 257 in a long line, you want to sell it or not, next. You went to a jeweler to sell it, he could care less. You were number 321 in a long line, you want to sell it or not, next. You went to the baker and sell it he would give you bread and pastry for it. Everybody saw these coins coming out of the wood work nobody gave you juice for the numismatic value. I have a 1900 O Morgan you would say in nice condition, so what they made over 12 million of them. My point is when push came to shove Numismatic value is difficult to get back out of coins. Everybody knows Gold & Silver prices you can pick up any newspaper in the world and find it. Any jeweler, coin dealer, antique dealer, some bakers, some car dealers, some dinners, some furniture guys, will pay or barter for bullion. Only a very select will pay for numismatic value. So now they are buying your Silver Dollars for that $35.00 If you bought Peace Dollars you would get $4400 back. If you bought Morgan Dollars you would get $3600 back. You tell me what the better purchase was. Tom Exxtra

scags981 | 11-22-2005 01:36 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread numismatics although a 25% -30 % spread they actually did better than gold and silver combined. since 1970 even if you held onto your coins till now your up some 6500%. CU3000 index PCGS.com. So take that to the bank. The last bull market to the moon in numimatics was in the late 80's not in the 70's. This was a time when the dollar was losing value quickly. Like now LOL! Also with millions more collectors coming on board each year its a sure bad that we will surpass the all time high on this index. We are some 65% away from that as we speak. So we are in the 2nd inning sort of speak. BTW there is no reporting of SS#'s when purchasing numismatics regardless the amount spent. The law does however require reporting SS# on large purchases of Gold & Silver Bullion. One other note about numismatics. You had 3 long years to sell during those late 80's in order to make a profit. Unlike Gold & Silver you may wake up one morning and see G&S plummet a $100 or whatever. Numismatics are not volatile as G&S. SO Sleep tight !

scags981 | 11-22-2005 01:54 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Millions of dollars are spent all around the country at auctions for numismatics at amazing prices. When selling your coins deal with a reputable dealer not some goofball at the local coin store. US rare coins are the most sought after coins in the world. I would own a little bit of both bulllion and numismatic. If you need further proof wait till Gold hits a $1000 and the dollar goes down to the abyss. Answer this question someone. Lets say you were a wealthy man or woman and you were panicking about the currency going to zero which it just might end up at. Would you be more inclined to put your money into a "Picasso" like rare numismatic coin which might be worth say $40,000 for ie: or would you rather take delivery of the same $40,000 in Gold & Silver bullion and the Wagon train you might need to haul it home ? This my friends is why Wealthy people around the world sunk there fiat currency into numismatics during a currency crisis which we are about to embark on in the next few years. I would also have a look at Gold stocks which will participate in this the "Greatest Gold Show Ever". Just make sure they are not hedged , involved in derivatives or non-recourse loans. Just ask them before buying.

hernancortes | 11-22-2005 04:08 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Sidebar: Does anyone see the potential "numismatic bonus" of acquiring some of the new '06 .9999 US bullion pieces? DOwn the road, do you think the first-year mintage status of these might bring added value, as they did to Silver and Gold Eagles?

GoldenSheikUrBootie | 11-22-2005 04:27 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Quote:
Originally Posted by hernancortes Sidebar: Does anyone see the potential "numismatic bonus" of acquiring some of the new '06 .9999 US bullion pieces? DOwn the road, do you think the first-year mintage status of these might bring added value, as they did to Silver and Gold Eagles?
I'd vote no. In the last run up in the early 80's, the gold brokers would ONLY pay for the metal. They numismatic coins had NO premium. These brokers would by jewelry, coins, etc. by the weight only.

Sturdly | 11-22-2005 07:24 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Quote:
Originally Posted by scags981 numismatics although a 25% -30 % spread they actually did better than gold and silver combined. since 1970 even if you held onto your coins till now your up some 6500%. CU3000 index PCGS.com. So take that to the bank. The last bull market to the moon in numimatics was in the late 80's not in the 70's. This was a time when the dollar was losing value quickly. One other note about numismatics. You had 3 long years to sell during those late 80's in order to make a profit. Unlike Gold & Silver you may wake up one morning and see G&S plummet a $100 or whatever. Numismatics are not volatile as G&S. SO Sleep tight !
So well put and right you are. This is apples and oranges really. Play the spread, you stay in the market and earn free ounces. Have some of both, at this point as much as you can afford.

twenty4karat | 11-22-2005 09:00 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Numismatic vs. bullion- Apples and Oranges. Bullion is strictly PM Gold or Silver, ingots, rounds, most American Eagles (except PROOF grade. These are considered Numismatic). also Kugarands, Maples, Pandas, etc. These have intrinsic PM value only and could (from past History '33) be confiscated/outlawed to own. Numismatic Coins on the other hand, not only have intrinsic PM value they are considered collectables therefore these were not consficated. Today most higher grades have been slabbed and graded however, the difference lets say between an MS63 and a MS65 (or higher) on some given coins can mean the difference of thousands (in some cases tens of thousands) of dollars. Here, is the problem I see with these: 1) Grading can be relative. 2) I've heard of some guy who had sent his coin in to be graded, it came back as a MS62, then he broke it out of it's slab and resubmitted it to be graded by the same grading company and it came back MS64! (+/- $1,000's) 3) I have quite a few Double Eagles, Morgans, Franklins, Kennedys, etc. That I know are at least MS64 or better. Why should I spend good money to have these Graded and Slabbed when there is a calculated chance (read risk) that the grade could be off. 4) You have to know what it is you are buying and from whom you are buying them from. Most important is it's value, both intrinsic and Numismayic. Forget places like Franklin Mint, what you are buying here is bullion coins at numismatic premiums. Even places like Swiss America, etc. (sometimes you pay more for a name). Allot of places have outrageous premiums on numismatics and spot+ prices on bullion. Do your home work. The best way to know what condition a coin is in is by studying. Go to coin shops. Look at actual coins. Pictures and especially web photos don't really do a coin justice unless your eye has been really trained. That comes from years of looking at the real thing. Read books, periodicals (ie: Numismatic News, Coin World, World Coins, etc.). Years ago when my girls were still in school I had a conversation with one of the dad's who was a retired Treasury Age ant. He said the way they were trained to spot counterfeit currencies, was to spend hundreds of hours looking at the real thing! That's what it takes with coins (numismatics). That is just one facet. There are things like age (an old coin isn't always an valuable coin). There are other considerations: Mint Mark, Quantity minted, what percentage still exist and in what shape. (This is actually an area that slabbed coins has helped establish). Take the 1857-S Double Eagle ($20 Gold). Many of these coins were in private collections and museums. These had set values and were very nice coins in the higher grades. Then one day, this group of treasure hunters found the steamship that sank off the coast of South Carolina (I believe it was). Anyway, this ship sat at the bottom of the Atlantic for about 140 years and guess what?, You got it, this ship was laidened with freshly minted (most still in the mint rolls) of 1857-S Double Eagles in MS63 or greater condition (mostly greater). Needless to say, these existence of this new found hoard significantly effected the value of the earlier mentioned coins. It works the other way also. In 1979-80 when silver rose to $54 oz., people were melting down Morgan and Liberty dollars along with any pre-1965 Halves, Quarters and dimes (all 90% Silver). This made the remaining coins (not all) worth more. There are still more factors but I would say that a main factor is desire. Most collectors desire, even dream of certain coins. So, yes, you will pay more than spot price for quality numismatic coins. But with study and patients you won't get burned. As a long time collector who has been in the right place at the right time more than once, I know what I see when I see it. As would any collector who has done his/her homework. So when you deal with like minded/educated coin collectors you can do OK.

twenty4karat | 11-22-2005 09:00 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Numismatic vs. bullion- Apples and Oranges. Bullion is strictly PM Gold or Silver, ingots, rounds, most American Eagles (except PROOF grade. These are considered Numismatic). also Kugarands, Maples, Pandas, etc. These have intrinsic PM value only and could (from past History '33) be confiscated/outlawed to own. Numismatic Coins on the other hand, not only have intrinsic PM value they are considered collectables therefore these were not consficated. Today most higher grades have been slabbed and graded however, the difference lets say between an MS63 and a MS65 (or higher) on some given coins can mean the difference of thousands (in some cases tens of thousands) of dollars. Here, is the problem I see with these: 1) Grading can be relative. 2) I've heard of some guy who had sent his coin in to be graded, it came back as a MS62, then he broke it out of it's slab and resubmitted it to be graded by the same grading company and it came back MS64! (+/- $1,000's) 3) I have quite a few Double Eagles, Morgans, Franklins, Kennedys, etc. That I know are at least MS64 or better. Why should I spend good money to have these Graded and Slabbed when there is a calculated chance (read risk) that the grade could be off. 4) You have to know what it is you are buying and from whom you are buying them from. Most important is it's value, both intrinsic and Numismayic. Forget places like Franklin Mint, what you are buying here is bullion coins at numismatic premiums. Even places like Swiss America, etc. (sometimes you pay more for a name). Allot of places have outrageous premiums on numismatics and spot+ prices on bullion. Do your home work. The best way to know what condition a coin is in is by studying. Go to coin shops. Look at actual coins. Pictures and especially web photos don't really do a coin justice unless your eye has been really trained. That comes from years of looking at the real thing. Read books, periodicals (ie: Numismatic News, Coin World, World Coins, etc.). Years ago when my girls were still in school I had a conversation with one of the dad's who was a retired Treasury Age ant. He said the way they were trained to spot counterfeit currencies, was to spend hundreds of hours looking at the real thing! That's what it takes with coins (numismatics). That is just one facet. There are things like age (an old coin isn't always an valuable coin). There are other considerations: Mint Mark, Quantity minted, what percentage still exist and in what shape. (This is actually an area that slabbed coins has helped establish). Take the 1857-S Double Eagle ($20 Gold). Many of these coins were in private collections and museums. These had set values and were very nice coins in the higher grades. Then one day, this group of treasure hunters found the steamship that sank off the coast of South Carolina (I believe it was). Anyway, this ship sat at the bottom of the Atlantic for about 140 years and guess what?, You got it, this ship was laidened with freshly minted (most still in the mint rolls) of 1857-S Double Eagles in MS63 or greater condition (mostly greater). Needless to say, these existence of this new found hoard significantly effected the value of the earlier mentioned coins. It works the other way also. In 1979-80 when silver rose to $54 oz., people were melting down Morgan and Liberty dollars along with any pre-1965 Halves, Quarters and dimes (all 90% Silver). This made the remaining coins (not all) worth more. There are still more factors but I would say that a main factor is desire. Most collectors desire, even dream of certain coins. So, yes, you will pay more than spot price for quality numismatic coins. But with study and patients you won't get burned. As a long time collector who has been in the right place at the right time more than once, I know what I see when I see it. As would any collector who has done his/her homework. So when you deal with like minded/educated coin collectors you can do OK.

AuNuggets | 11-23-2005 11:12 AM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread Twenty4Karat, that was an excellent post with some very good points made. I would just add as couple of thoughts along the same lines. Regardless of whether a coin is or is not "slabbed" by one of the major grading services, if you are seriously, and I mean VERY SERIOUSLY buying numismatics, you need to educate yourself FIRST. If you are not capable of making your own grading decisions to an accurate enough degree that they will be agreed to by "most" other graders/dealers, then you probably don't have any business in numismatics in the first place. (by "you", I refer to anyone reading, myself included). Know what you are doing first, and you are not nearly as likely to get "stung". scags981 asked "Would you be more inclined to put your money into a "Picasso" like rare numismatic coin which might be worth say $40,000 for ie: or would you rather take delivery of the same $40,000 in Gold & Silver bullion and the Wagon train you might need to haul it home ?" I don't know where he is buying his gold, but $40K out of my stash can be very easily carried without the use of a wagon. That only amounts to around 81 ounces. And the fact remains, PMs have always been and will always be much more liquid than numismatics, with far more willing buyers and far more established values than with the collectibles that require locating someone who actually wants them enough to pay the more arbitrary prices involved. Wealthy people do NOT in fact sink their fiat into numismatics in favor of gold or silver during a currency crisis. Those with such concerns are far more likely to choose the PMs given the choice, and that is historic fact. Gold stocks on the other hand are nothing but another paper game a step (or several) away from actually owning the physical. If you don't hold physical, you have no direct control over the real commodity. If you hold numismatics, you are at the risk of what a collective "hobby" determines as their value. In hard times, hobbies are the first thing to go in favor of necessities. A trading medium is always considered a necessity, even at the most basic barter level. A collectible to someone not very familiar with the specific hobby or market involved is inherently suspicious of a high value on something they don't know or don't understand. One of the old PM writers from back in the 60s an 70s once used the analogy of a total societal break-down, and the futility of trying to "spend" a high relief $20 Saint Gaudens gold piece based on it's "numismatic value". Do we seriously expect change ? And in what form ? Fiat ???? I think that was a point very well made. To the other party, they would probably not care if the coin was the SG or a Krugerrand. To them, they were both just an ounce of gold, and nothing more. I'm not saying that there is no money to be made in numismatics, far from it. I made a bunch during the 75-80 and 87-89 markets, but I didn't take the advice of the guy across the table that was selling the coins. I learned grading and made my own decisions. But knowledge is the key. For the average Joe who doesn't want to bother taking the time to get educated first, before he starts throwing his money around, numismatics will put him in a position of being under the thumb of the dealer and following advice that is more than likely geared toward making a living for the dealer rather than making profits for the buyer. A full-time coin dealer is making his living off of coins. SOMEBODY is paying the price. How well does your coin dealer live ?

scags981 | 11-23-2005 03:07 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread I was thinking more along the lines a silver purchase $40,000. Silver is quite heavy so that was my line of thinking there. Sorry for the confusion. Numismatics are a good investment for the long term for sure, with bullion coming in second for the short term. Gold stocks on the other hand would be a great leverage bet. own them all is what I say. have a little of each. You will find out that there will be a time and place for all 3 investments to reap profits. Gold was in 1980, Numismatics & Gold stocks were in the late 80's. Who is selling all these numismatics for millions at all these auctions across the country ? I just don't get the all the opposition to numismatics and false and misleading info on them . PCGS & NGC are the most respected grading services in the entire world and reconized by coin collectors around the globe. You obviously can not purchase a numismatic today and expect to make a profit the next day on it. I also beg to differ that someone with oodles of those humpty dumpty dollars that when the internal rot is finally realized in the USD that they would not protect themselves by purchasing these fine coins as part of there portfolios. Don't get me wrong I like bullion also , but storing bullion becomes an issue at one point or another don't you think ? Educate yourself is the one important thing to do before investing in any numismatics. Its quite remarkable when you are holding a piece of American history in your hand. That it was once worth a $1 (Morgan Silver Dollar 100 years old) and a scuffed up one today not graded is worth now $10. Inflation will be the death of us all in this country and hyper inflation is coming down the pike along with low cost labor (deflation). Thanks to Bernanke's Mayhem printing machine which is about to be turned on super speed. The green globs you see everywhere and I mean everywhere will not be able to be extracted from the system. US equities bonds will have to be revalued sooner or later and that will be the day of reckoning in this country. GOT GOLD ? BJS

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twenty4karat | 11-23-2005 04:43 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread AUNuggets, that's what I meant buy doing your homework and studying the real thing. I did neglect to say that it will take you many years. But like any instrument, you must practice, practice, practice. To make it second nature. Thanx 4 the feedback.

GoldenSheikUrBootie | 11-23-2005 04:57 PM
Re: numismatic/bullion spread $40,000 in gold isn't much at all. 6 lbs. or so. Silver weighs too much in large quantities. You can hold $200,000 worth (400 oz.) with 2 hands. http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg....wrGFopmLMe9g--

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