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- - Simple Reality Test for GIMers (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=38663)

Book | 06-14-2006 08:39 PM
Simple Reality Test for GIMers Simple Question: Why would these guys exchange their Liberty Dollars for FRNs if they believe their own advertising??? Linky :questionm

Halophyte | 06-14-2006 08:45 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers They're out of sync with the PM cycle - usually caused by emotion.

grizzlyduck | 06-14-2006 09:53 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers http://www.libertydollar.org/graphic...liberty_fb.jpg isn't any "coin" or bill that contains a monitary value and not issued by the US mint considered counterfit or fraudulent? i'm just wondering about that. couldn't these guys get in real trouble by the gov?

Ponce Cuba | 06-14-2006 10:01 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers I would like to get some, how much a piece and where can I get them?

Ardent Listener | 06-14-2006 10:09 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Hey!, don't be knocking the liberty dollars. When all of your PMs went down yesterday, my liberty dollars still say $1000 each on them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just goes to show what you guys know.:rofl:

hoarder | 06-14-2006 10:11 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers The Liberty Dollar has been discussed over and over on this forum and the Free State Project forum and the only universal conclusion is that It's a lot better and more honest than the Federal Reserve system, yet holds no advantages over bullion other than it's educational and activism value. I don't buy them. I don't knock them either, might as well save that energy for the more deserving Federal Reserve.

runcible | 06-14-2006 10:20 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Hmmm, so for $20 USD, I can get 1 troy ounce silver? Oh wait, it is "inflation proof". Goodie. Must be that special sort of silver that doesn't fluctuate in relation to the dollar. Too bad I only have the non-inflation-proof silver that lost purchasing power in the last week. According to wikipedia "Since the revaluation of the Liberty Dollar on Thanksgiving Day, 2005, the old silver notes and $10 Silver Liberty are obsolete. There is a reminting fee to melt down old one-ounce $10 Silver Liberties and remint them into $20 Silver Liberties, but the paper certificates can be exchanged at no charge.". Methinks it sounds like a money-making scam. But I'm cynical, YMMV.

REV127 | 06-14-2006 10:22 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers I buy them, they periodically show up amongst the generic rounds at standard bullion prices. I like the half ouncers as a convenient silver fractional.

Tn...Andy | 06-14-2006 10:24 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzlyduck (Post 274452) http://www.libertydollar.org/graphic...liberty_fb.jpg isn't any "coin" or bill that contains a monitary value and not issued by the US mint considered counterfit or fraudulent? i'm just wondering about that. couldn't these guys get in real trouble by the gov?
Then the Feds would have to come up with a definition of the "dollar"........... Oh, wait....they already did !! The Coinage Act of 1792, as subsequently ammended, but not repealed, says a "DOLLAR" is 371.25 grains of fine silver. So the same US Mint that makes those Sack-a-manure dollar coins, and the Treasury Dept that prints the so called "Dollar" bill for the Fed is in violation of the Coinage Act, since neither can be redeemed for 371.25 grains of fine silver.

Johnny99 | 06-14-2006 10:54 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by runcible (Post 274488) According to wikipedia "Since the revaluation of the Liberty Dollar on Thanksgiving Day, 2005, the old silver notes and $10 Silver Liberty are obsolete. There is a reminting fee to melt down old one-ounce $10 Silver Liberties and remint them into $20 Silver Liberties, but the paper certificates can be exchanged at no charge.". Methinks it sounds like a money-making scam. But I'm cynical, YMMV.
Why can't I just send him a few Christmas rounds and he sends me the $20 FRN per oz minus the "reminting fee"?

RealMoney | 06-15-2006 01:59 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Book (Post 274392) Simple Question: Why would these guys exchange their Liberty Dollars for FRNs if they believe their own advertising??? Linky :questionm
Yeah "Bernard von NotHaus" my butt "Bernard von NutHaus" I think....what a scam. :haha::haha:

The Great Ag | 06-15-2006 07:42 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers I'll answer this question. Ponce, if you want some, pm me and I can sell them to you at a discount I am a big proponent of the Liberty Dollar. First advantages. 1. There is no debt associated with the Liberty Dollar. I.E. the fed does not own or control the Liberty Dollar. You are free from fed involvement. The money belongs to the people. 2. It is real money. Not the crap FRNs our gov't foists on us. Meaning you are conforming with the Constitution, all debts, goods and services are paid for with gold and silver. I have bought groceries, flowers, and gas with them so far. 3. Liberty dollars can be bought at a discount. As a Liberty Associate I currently save 17.5% on each $20 silver Liberty piece. That is a savings to me or a profit if I sell them. Try going to your bank and asking for a $20 FRN but giving them less than full face value. 4. Inflation proof. When silver goes over $20 an ounce, (I was hoping this year, but maybe next) the same ounce of silver will bump up to the next base which is $50. So your $20 now purchases $50 worth of goods and services. Try that with a FRN. Disadvantages: 1. The gov't does not take them for payment of taxes. 2. Banks should not take them. They could, but the teller will probably get into trouble. Okay, why would any GIMer pay more than spot + small premium for bullion. Remember this is money, not just metal. When we had real money, do you think it cost the gov't $1 to make a silver dollar coin? Same rule applies here. Remember, when you accept a $100 Federal Reserve Note, you are trading $100 worth of goods or services for a 3-cent piece of paper, backed by nothing but debt and delusion. Partial-backing with value is infinitely better than zero-backing with debt. Lastly, the Liberty dollar is money, not an investment. If you want PMs, and we all do, buy them as cheaply as possible. Anyone have questions, please ask them. I will answer all. The Great Ag

The Great Ag | 06-15-2006 07:48 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by RealMoney (Post 274649) Yeah "Bernard von NotHaus" my butt "Bernard von NutHaus" I think....what a scam. :haha::haha:
Hey, Real Money, what do consider real money to be? Obviously our FRNs are not. What about silver and gold certificates? Are those real money? You could redeem those for the equivalent of PMs. The silver and gold Liberty certificiates are 100% redeemable. A $20 Liberty silver certificate is redeemable for 1 ouce of fine .999 silver. What is real money? The Great Ag

The Great Ag | 06-15-2006 07:55 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzlyduck (Post 274452) http://www.libertydollar.org/graphic...liberty_fb.jpg isn't any "coin" or bill that contains a monitary value and not issued by the US mint considered counterfit or fraudulent? i'm just wondering about that. couldn't these guys get in real trouble by the gov?
We can manufacture our own currency. It is perfectly legal, and lawful. The only thing you cannot say is the Liberty dollar is "legal tender," since it is not coined by the government. Liberty dollars are not legal tender, but are lawful monies. FRNs do not even meet the criteria for money. They do not provide a warehouse of value, they are not redeemable, they are not noegotiable; heck, they are not even considered a note, despite what is written on the front. Notes can be redeemed for something. A $20 FRN only show that there is $20 worth of debt on Uncle Sam's books. The FRN is an unconditional IOU. At some point in time in the future, I promise to pay you with something of value, if such time occurs. Until such time, I am giving you this $20 FRN. Since 1965 we have not paid for anything in America, just postponed it. When that day of reckoning comes, we are in trouble. The Liberty dollar avoids that. The Great Ag

Book | 06-15-2006 09:42 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers 1 Attachment(s) Reality: Quote:
Oh, wait....they already did !! The Coinage Act of 1792, as subsequently ammended, but not repealed, says a "DOLLAR" is 371.25 grains of fine silver. -Tn Andy
Reality is that the current FRN price of a Dollar is $10.14 Attachment 15716 Reality is that The Great Ag wants $20 for his Dollar: Quote:
3. Liberty dollars can be bought at a discount. As a Liberty Associate I currently save 17.5% on each $20 silver Liberty piece. That is a savings to me or a profit if I sell them. Try going to your bank and asking for a $20 FRN but giving them less than full face value. The Great Ag
Subtracting The Great Ag's 17.5% vig of $3.50 we are still short $6.36 from the total $20 face value: $10.14 silver content $03.50 The Great Ag's vig $06.36 unexplained missing value $20.00 face value Simple Reality Test Question: We now understand why they want to exchange $10.14 in Silver for $20 in FRNs. Why would anyone exchange $20 in FRNs for a Liberty Dollar [generic silver round] that contains only $10.14 in Silver??? :wavey:

The Great Ag | 06-15-2006 11:10 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Book (Post 274760) Reality: Reality is that the current FRN price of a Dollar is $10.14 Attachment 15716 Reality is that The Great Ag wants $20 for his Dollar: Subtracting The Great Ag's 17.5% vig of $3.50 we are still short $6.36 from the total $20 face value: $10.14 silver content $03.50 The Great Ag's vig $06.36 unexplained missing value $20.00 face value Simple Reality Test Question: We now understand why they want to exchange $10.14 in Silver for $20 in FRNs. Why would anyone exchange $20 in FRNs for a Liberty Dollar [generic silver round] that contains only $10.14 in Silver??? :wavey:
$6.36 unexplained missing value? Just like any product you cannot expect to pay for that product for the cost of the raw materials. Bread costs over $2. Do you think there are over $2 worth of raw material in that bread? When you pay $20,000 for a car, do you think there are $20k worth of metals, plastics and rubber in it? Ofcourse not. The same principle appies to money creation. Even our treasury works the same. Do you think there is .25 cents worth of nickel and copper in a quarter? Do you think there is $20 worth of material in a $20 FRN? Heck no, it costs around .03 cents to make a $20 FRN. Value = $20.00 FRN Cost = .03 Difference 19.97 So where is the missing $19.97 worth of value? Let's compare the difference between a $20FRN and a $20 Liberty silver certificate $20 FRN 1. backed by debt 2 lose $19.97 to the consumer 3. not redeemable for anything ] 4. controlled by the fed ] $20 silver Liberty 1. Backed by silver 2. lost $6.36 to the consumer 3. redeemable for 1 oz silver 4. controlled by the people Which currency is a better value? Book, I would not buy silver Liberties for investment purposes. In that sense, you are absolutely correct. However, which currency would I want to use for my everyday transactions? The Liberty Dollar wins hands down. The Great Ag

messianicdruid | 06-15-2006 01:40 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Ag (Post 274700) Remember this is money, not just metal. The Great Ag
Metal is money. It's just that some metals are better money than others, and always better than paper. The segniorage of Liberty Dollars is just an needless expense, unless as was mentioned it is an educational effort. http://www.investment.definitioncent...iss/segniorage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage

Book | 06-15-2006 02:04 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers snippet from messianicdruid's excellent linky: Quote:
Seigniorage, also spelled seignorage or seigneurage, is the net revenue derived from the issuing of currency. It arises from the difference between the face value of a coin or bank note and the cost of producing and distributing it. Seigniorage is an important source of revenue for some national governments. For example, after the "50 State" series of Quarters was launched in the U.S. in the late 1990s, the U.S. government discovered that a large number of people were collecting each new quarter as it rolled out of the U.S. Mint, taking the pieces out of circulation. Since it costs the Mint less than five cents for each 25-cent piece it produces, the government made money whenever someone "bought" a coin and chose not to spend it. The U.S. Treasury estimates that it has earned about $5 billion in seignorage profits from the quarters so far<SUP class=noprint>[citation needed]</SUP> (April 2005). Seigniorage can also refer to a form of tax levied on the holders of a currency, and as such a redistribution of resources to the issuer. The expansion of the monetary base usually causes inflation in the long run. This means that the real wealth of people who hold cash or deposits decreases, and the real wealth of the issuer of the money increases. This is a redistribution of wealth from the people to the issuers (mostly banks) very similar to a tax. This is one reason offered in support of the creation of modern, independent, central banks, whose primary objective is allegedly to ensure the value of currency, by controlling monetary expansion and thus limiting inflation. Independence from government is required to reach this aim. Indeed, it is well known in economic literature that governments face a conflict of interests in this regard. In fact, "hard money" advocates argue that central banks have utterly failed to obtain the objective of a stable currency. Under the gold standard, for example, the price level in both England and the US remained relatively stable over literally hundreds of years, though with some protracted periods of deflation. Since the US Federal Reserve was formed in 1913, however, the US dollar has fallen to barely a 20th of its former value through the consistently inflationary policies of the bank. Economists counter that deflation is hard to control once it sets in, and its effects are much more damaging than modest, consistent inflation.
Reality Summary: $10.14 actual silver content of this generic silver round $03.50 The Great Ag's seigniorage $06.36 Liberty Inc's seigniorage $20.00 face value of this generic 1-oz silver round :listen: psst $9.86 total seigniorage going to The Great Ag and Liberty Inc.

Fiat Mutiny | 06-15-2006 03:27 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers I would not buy the Liberty dollar because: 1) the high mark up. 2) Most cashiers do not recognize a Susan B. Anthony dollar, let alone a Liberty dollar that I barely recognize. Therefore, I think it would be hard to trade with for goods. 3) The creator is out to make money as he should be, just shouldn't be my money. On the other hand, I like the rebellious concept & I'm not fully aware of how it works with inflation. For example, say I buy a $20 Liberty dollar. I now have the equivalent $20 worth of FRN's to spend. Say, then, the FRN tanks to 50% of its previous value. A $10 item at the store goes to $20. I still have my $20 Liberty dollar. I used to be able to buy 2 of the $10 items, now I can only buy one of the $10 items. How has the Liberty dollar fought inflation? I'm guessing that it assumes that if the $10 item doubles, so will the price of silver. So, I then can send in my now obsolete dollars to get a $50 Liberty dollar? For a small fee? What kind of fee. What turned my $20 into $50. And why not just buy bullion and watch it double instead of all the hassle. Just go to your local dealer and cash it in for a small fee. The markup is just too high. It sounds like a pyramid scheme. You get a 17.5% discount & I'm guessing that the guy you get it from gets a 17.5% discount and so on and so on, just like New Image dietary supplement. The end of the line guy like me gets to buy a $10 ounce of silver for $20 while you guys get rich. The only person that accepts it is the coin dealer who will give me $10 for it, *maybe*. I heard a man on the radio talking about Liberty dollars a few months back. He claimed his town in Arkansas was the Liberty dollar capital of the USA, meaning the most coins were in circulation and the most stores accepted them per capita. He went on to say he used to buy goods from Wal-Mart, but they eventually refused to take them. I do a lot of shopping at Wal-Mart. Why would it behoove me to pay $20 for a $10 piece of silver, just to go buy $10 worth of goods with it at Wal-Mart (if they even accepted them)? I could just keep my cash and buy $20 worth of goods. Throw in hyperinflation and I still have my bullion that I can then sell for double its worth or more. I don't fully see the benefits. Perhaps some more education will convince me.

Infidel | 06-15-2006 03:40 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers What a scam. If i have "investment" rounds I can excange them at a lesser premium for whatever currency I want IF Liberty Dollars BOTH Bought FROM LibertyDollar.com and Sold TO LibertyDollar.com were priced at the same number of FRNs then there would be no one getting screwed. Other than that is it a SCAM And I do not really care about your overhead. You are either a currency or a novelty item and only tourists buy novelty items

Book | 06-15-2006 03:42 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
I don't fully see the benefits. Perhaps some more education will convince me. -Fiat Mutiny
Nope...you nailed it Fiat Money! :beer: <!-- / message -->

Veli Hopea | 06-15-2006 08:53 PM
Shiny silver, beautiful coins I'd rather purchase Silver Eagles instead, because I get more metal and still very nice coins for the same amount of paper money. But hey, I have done that already.

Johnny99 | 06-15-2006 09:49 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Ag (Post 274700) Anyone have questions, please ask them. I will answer all. The Great Ag
What is the limit to amount of Liberty Dollars one can buy? Can I realistically walk into VanNotHaus' office and ask for 50 million Liberty Dollars? If I were to come across a $10 Liberty Dollar scrip, can I redeem that for a one ounce Liberty Dollar? If so, what is to stop a good counterfeiter from liquidating Mr. VonNothaus of his silver holdings?

merc49 | 06-15-2006 09:53 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Yes the mark up sucks, Yes it is cheaper to buy at your dealer, Yes it is probably a network marketing company, But I think alot of you are missing the point. I do not own any Liberty dollars, But I have decided to buy some just to support the Idea ( however silly it might sound to some) of the peoples money. I really think all Who dissagree with the Federal Reserve should buy 5 or 10 liberty dollars just to hold and participate in the program. I wish they were cheaper too. I also wish we were not slaves to the money changers. Think about it most people could put 5 to 10 liberty dollars in your stash without busting the budget in a couple months time and could at least raise more awareness to things. You never know we might even get enough attention to get a private investor to launch a similar program as a revolution without all the added poop that comes with the big mark up. 2 cents.

The Great Ag | 06-16-2006 11:04 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Book (Post 274922) snippet from messianicdruid's excellent linky: Reality Summary: $10.14 actual silver content of this generic silver round $03.50 The Great Ag's seigniorage $06.36 Liberty Inc's seigniorage $20.00 face value of this generic 1-oz silver round :listen: psst $9.86 total seigniorage going to The Great Ag and Liberty Inc.
Psst, Book works for the gov't. Don't trust him :haha: Just kidding, Book. But seriously, what is wrong with a private corporation and a private citizen, making a small profit. When I spend them that is a savings to me, and if people buy them from me, I pass the savings to them. Minimally they will save 5%, maybe more it depends on my price. So $19 gets you $20. The fed doesn't do that. Matter of fact their seigiorage is 98%. That is huge! And wrong. On top of that we owe the fed interest. The fed pays .03 for a $20 FRN and sells it to banks at face value, and we get them for the same. Prior to 1965, and 1933 silver and gold were money, and no one complained about that they paid more for their money than spot. As I said, in terms of an investment, Liberty dollars are not the way to go. This is a currency, and many vendors do take it. I do not have much of a problem spending them. Matter of fact, a lot of people buy them from me outright. The Great Ag

dwightbelew | 06-16-2006 11:23 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Okay, guys and girls,,I'm brand new here and this is my first post ever and I know it's in the wrong place,,it's just that I don't know how to put it in the right place. I'm an absolute dummy on a computer. BUT! I have a question. I'm a jeweler in Tn and have been for 32 years. Also a diamond seller/setter, goldsmith. I was around when the gold/silver frenzy hit in '79/'80 and made a lot of $$$. I'm pretty loaded right now with physical gold/silver and waiting for it to go back up. Did I say,,I have a question,, Yeah, I did. Question: I have a customer wanting to sell me a considerable amount of Tantalum. She has a few pounds of it and I just don't have a market for it. Who's a buyer for this stuff? What's it worth? Anybody got an answer for me? Thanks, Dwight in Tn.

The Great Ag | 06-16-2006 12:51 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiat Mutiny (Post 274983) I would not buy the Liberty dollar because: Good questions, Fiat Money. I will try to answer them all. 1) the high mark up. the fed's is even higher; .03 cents for each FRN. 2) Most cashiers do not recognize a Susan B. Anthony dollar, let alone a Liberty dollar that I barely recognize. Therefore, I think it would be hard to trade with for goods. Not at all. MOst people do not think about money, they just spend it. I, too, spend SBA and Sac dollars, and the cashiers just look at the back and see "one dollar" and drop it the till. Same with the Liberty dollar. If they don't take, no worries, I pay with the feds money. 3) The creator is out to make money as he should be, just shouldn't be my money. See Item #1. The FRN is backed by nothing, and we have to pay interest on that money, which was not created. We have to create more money to pay the interest on the first batch created. . .ad infinitum. That is the cause of inflation. If we did not have any debt, there would be no money. We pay a lot more than a small mark up when comparing the FRN to the Liberty Dollar. On the other hand, I like the rebellious concept & I'm not fully aware of how it works with inflation. For example, say I buy a $20 Liberty dollar. I now have the equivalent $20 worth of FRN's to spend. Say, then, the FRN tanks to 50% of its previous value. A $10 item at the store goes to $20. I still have my $20 Liberty dollar. I used to be able to buy 2 of the $10 items, now I can only buy one of the $10 items. How has the Liberty dollar fought inflation? It cannot keep inflation from happening to FRNs. It maintains its purchasing power, while the FRN loses its power. I'm guessing that it assumes that if the $10 item doubles, so will the price of silver. So, I then can send in my now obsolete dollars to get a $50 Liberty dollar? For a small fee? What kind of fee. What turned my $20 into $50. And why not just buy bullion and watch it double instead of all the hassle. Just go to your local dealer and cash it in for a small fee. To make the Liberty dollar work, the creators made the Libertty dollar trade on a 1:1 basis. As the price of silver increases in terms of FRNs, silver will be worth more than $20 FRNS per ounce. As that time you would not spend the $20 Liberty as it would be worth more for its bullion content. When silver is worth more than $20 per ounce, the next base for the Liberty Dollar is $50. The creators chose this number as it conforms with existing FRN currency. You can send your $20 silver Liberty to NORFED in Iowa, and for $3 will re-mint the Liberty piece or you can exchange for no cost the silver certificates. The idea is to have a silver backed currency and make it as compatible with FRNs as possible. Imagine going into a store with a generic silver round and spending it. First the vendor has to look up the spot price, he may or may not give that to you, he might discount it, so he can make a profit on it. What if the price has dropped significantly since you left your house and arrived at the store? The Liberty dollar is well thought out. They tackled a lot of tricky questions. The markup is just too high. It sounds like a pyramid scheme. You get a 17.5% discount & I'm guessing that the guy you get it from gets a 17.5% discount and so on and so on, just like New Image dietary supplement. The end of the line guy like me gets to buy a $10 ounce of silver for $20 while you guys get rich. The only person that accepts it is the coin dealer who will give me $10 for it, *maybe*. Heck, I bought some coins from my dealer last week with the silver Liberty. I got full $20 value for it. This is not a multi-level marketing scheme. You can exchange them directly from NORFED or from a Liberty Associate for face value with FRNs as you would at a bank exchanging one currency for another. Or you can sign up to be a Liberty Associate and get the discout too. Everyone can profit, or save by using the Liberty dollar. Imagine a vendor is a liberty associate and exchanges his FRNs for Libertys which he buys at a discount. Let's say something cost $9.95. If he gives back a $10 silver Liberty in change he just made 17.5% profit, and all he did was make change. Not a bad deal! Making profit just by making change. I heard a man on the radio talking about Liberty dollars a few months back. He claimed his town in Arkansas was the Liberty dollar capital of the USA, meaning the most coins were in circulation and the most stores accepted them per capita. He went on to say he used to buy goods from Wal-Mart, but they eventually refused to take them. I do a lot of shopping at Wal-Mart. Why would it behoove me to pay $20 for a $10 piece of silver, just to go buy $10 worth of goods with it at Wal-Mart (if they even accepted them)? The $20 Liberty has $20 worth of value. I don't see how you get $10 purchasing power. I could just keep my cash and buy $20 worth of goods. Throw in hyperinflation and I still have my bullion that I can then sell for double its worth or more. When hyperinflation hits, I have my bullion too. Again what will it be worth to a vender? The Liberty already has a value to it, no need for bartering or haggling. It's smart money. I don't fully see the benefits. Perhaps some more education will convince me.
Ask as many questions as you have. I will answer them to the best of my ability. The Great Ag

The Great Ag | 06-16-2006 01:05 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by zhukher (Post 274991) What a scam. If i have "investment" rounds I can excange them at a lesser premium for whatever currency I want Can you exchange them for gas, groceries or other items? You can with the Liberty Dollar. You are either a currency or a novelty item When the automobile first came out it was a novelty item too. The Liberty dollar is 8 years old. It takes time to introduce a new currency and gain acceptance. It is happening. and only tourists buy novelty items One man's novelty is another man's passion. Just staying ahead of the curve.
The Great Ag

The Great Ag | 06-16-2006 01:16 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny99 (Post 275282) What is the limit to amount of Liberty Dollars one can buy? Can I realistically walk into VanNotHaus' office and ask for 50 million Liberty Dollars? You can try. I do not know how much they have on hand. There are 20 milion Liberty dollars in circulation around the country. If I were to come across a $10 Liberty Dollar scrip, can I redeem that for a one ounce Liberty Dollar? It depends on what the base is. If you look at the bottom left corner of the silver certificate, you will see what the base is, either $10 or $20. If it says $10 dollar base, then yes you can redeem it for 1 ounce of silver. If it says $20 dollar base, then you can redeem it for .5 ounces of silver. All terms and conditions are contained on the certificate. If so, what is to stop a good counterfeiter from liquidating Mr. VonNothaus of his silver holdings? The Silver certificates are quite difficult to counterfeit. Here is the info taken from the website abot security features. The Liberty Dollars' security against forgery is extremely high. Anti-counterfeit measures include special paper, micro-printing, silver and gold foil-stamping, a hologram, DNA secuity thread, and more. Actually, anti-forgery security with The Liberty Dollar is much higher than with Federal Reserve Notes!
The gReat Ag

Orwell Huxley | 06-16-2006 01:19 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers As hoarder said, this topic has been broached numerous times on GIM. I'll quote myself from this thread (again!): Quote:
I'll attempt a small defense of NORFED. In a community with heavy American Liberty Dollar saturation (Austin, TX for example), it makes good sense for merchants to accept it. For one, acceptance will bring in customers with Liberty Dollars, customers who otherwise may not have even crossed the threshold of the store. ALD acceptance thus provides an alternative marketing angle to a previously unconsidered demographic. Moreover, I would suspect that ALD fanatics would be repeat customers, especially if the merchant provides goods or services that cannot be purchased for ALDs elsewhere in the community. In such a community, those Liberty Dollars will tend to circulate; as the face value exceeds the metal content, it makes sense to spend them, rather than hoard them (for obvious reasons). This has to have a positive influence on the local economy. Conversely, it makes much less sense to accept Liberty Dollars in an area in which there is nowhere to spend them. Those Dollars then are not really functioning as money, as they aren't circulating, and the merchant essentially ends up with a silver hoard overpriced by 100% or so. Hmm. The other good reason for merchants to accept ALDs in a high-saturation community is simple: the money is backed by silver. Sure, it's only 50% backing right now, but think about it... if TSHTF tomorrow, at least these merchants will have some silver, rather than a drawer full of worthless FRNs. Essentially, the model only works properly if the ALDs are circulated. This is also the point of the face value exceeding the metal value; if it were the other way around, the ALDs would be hoarded and not spent. I agree with Tn...Andy that NORFED's rules for changing the ALD face value are complicated (and maybe somewhat arbitrary). However, I think having a face value denominated in "dollars" helps the ALD to circulate. With no face value that Average Joe can understand, the value of ALDs would have to be calculated on a per transaction basis. That's a bit of math, which most people would not like (and many would be unable to do.) Unfortunately, our current population is not trained to price things in units of gold or silver. That being said... NORFED does market by MLM. This seems to be an effective approach, but it repels me nonetheless. I want nothing to do with any MLM or any MLM groupies, as brainwashing makes me ill. Also, I have this picture of most ALD transactions containing an element of misunderstanding or deception. I suspect that when the ALD groupies are trying to spend these things, they're not always straightforward. I've read many a NORFED testimonial where the groupie's MO is to present a $10 FRN along with a $10 silver Liberty, and let the cashier decide which to accept for the $10 sale. People like silver, and if nothing further is said... the cashier might assume the silver Liberty is legal tender, accept it in trade, and swap it out for his own FRNs. Without explaining the whole NORFED scheme, trying to spend ALDs to someone who's ignorant is deceptive, IMO.
I know this is too complicated for you, Book, as all is black or white in your world. You really ought to just put me on ignore.

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- - Simple Reality Test for GIMers (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=38663)

Ash_Williams | 06-16-2006 01:42 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers 1 oz of silver is worth 1 oz of silver. I have nothing against the liberty dollars. Department stores print money in the form of gift certificates. Casinos create money when they create chips. A percentage of the money they create is profit. These liberty dollar guys are simply trying to make the printing of money their whole business, rather than as a profitable side of a much larger business. It's interesting, and I respect the fact that they seem to be pulling it off. It's one thing to print money to satisfy a demand that already exists (people want to buy products at the department store, or play roulette in vegas), but more challenging to actually create the demand. I wouldn't buy into it, but for anyone who does... at least you're getting some silver.

RealityCheck | 06-16-2006 02:03 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers This whole thing just doesn't sit right with me. I couldn't see anyone accepting these, and if they did they would probably lose thier job once their employer brings their cash to the bank only to find the bank wont accept them. These aren't real dollars and people won't percieve them as real dollars, they will percieve them as rounds with a high mark up that are stamped "dollars". I mean the guy who makes these could just take his bullion, stamp these, then go around spending it for six dollars more then its worth. If actually works consitently, then I say we all get into the bussines. I'm gonna start right away, but mine will be way better. I will stamp them as $100 each and will then go on a shopping spree with them. I don't care if you guys want to buy any of them off me. I don't need your money, I 'll just spend my $100 coins! :banana: I will instantly make 10x on my money risk free, and feel great that I'm using honest money. :rolleyes: Now am I missing something here or is this how it works?

Book | 06-16-2006 03:11 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Let's take note of a simple fact here: One-ounce generic silver rounds are not "legal tender" and they ALL are worth the same...one-ounce of silver. The notion that "Liberty Dollars" are "worth" more than any other generic silver round is absurd. The notion that "Liberty Dollars" are a way of sticking it to The Man or The Government or The Banksters can be said about any generic silver round. Wrap the Flag around a generic silver round and you still have just a generic silver round. Paying more for one one-ounce of silver over any other one-ounce of silver is illogical. Saying that buying a certain generic silver round is more "Patriotic" than buying any other generic silver round is nonsense. Comments addressing this topic of Liberty Dollars is most welcome. :yippee: Quote:
You really ought to just put me on ignore. -Orwell Huxley
You really should just stay out of my thread. :D

Wyldwil | 06-16-2006 03:47 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Ag (Post 274700) [ 4. Inflation proof. When silver goes over $20 an ounce, (I was hoping this year, but maybe next) the same ounce of silver will bump up to the next base which is $50. So your $20 now purchases $50 worth of goods and services. Try that with a FRN.]
Thank you for taking the time to help us understand this...it is very interesting to me. Maybe I'm just stupid, but I still don't understand what happens if silver hits 25$/oz. and up. what does trade up to 50.00$ mean? Also, if 20 million LD's are in circulation, than 20 million $'s (FRN's) have been spent on these already? What happen if I buy 1000$ LD's, does someone go and buy silver to back those, or is there 20 million sitting in a vault somewhere already backing the existing currency? Hope my questions make sense.

steel_g | 06-16-2006 04:49 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Okay, according to http://www.onlygold.com/TutorialPage...ion_tables.htm to convert grains to troy ounces one must multiply the number of grains by .0021 Therefore a Constitutional "dollar" of 371.25 grains is : 371.25 * .0021 = .779625 Soooo, using the spot price used above, wouldn't a Constitutional "dollar" really be only worth $10.14 * .779625 = $7.905 ??? Am I missing something??:wavey:

steel_g | 06-16-2006 05:35 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers I like Hugo Salinas's method of introducing silver back as a viable currency...perhaps this has been posted before, but it seems relevant to the current discussion.... I believe he mentioned elsewhere a seignorage of 10% as well...will try to find the link for that too... http://www.plata.com.mx/plata/plata/comHSP45a.htm How to introduce the one ounce silver "Libertad" coin into circulation in Mexico B y Hugo Salinas Price. <table border="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="100%"> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> Mexico�s Central Bank, the Banco de Mexico, has ample reserves of some $50 billion U.S. dollars. Indeed, President Vicente Fox of Mexico declared some months ago, that �we really don�t know what to do with them, they are so large.� Using a small part of these reserves, the Banco de Mexico could purchase silver for coining �Libertad� pure silver ounces.<o:p> </o:p> These coins could be placed into circulation as legal tender money, with a floating value which would be quoted daily by the Banco de Mexico. The floating value would be determined by taking the international price of silver, presently quoted in dollars, multiplying this price by the exchange rate of the Mexican peso for dollars, and adding on a small percentage of seignorage for the Banco de Mexico. This would be the legal tender value for the one ounce, no nominal (engraved) value, pure silver �Libertad� coin.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Banco de Mexico could put these into circulation, by exactly the same means which it presently uses to put bills and coins into circulation. (In 2002, the Banco de Mexico added $39 billion pesos � some $3.7 billion dollars � to the Mexican bills and coins in circulation) Thus, the silver �Libertad� ounce would enter circulation along with other bills and coins, through the banking system.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The reader may object: �But these higher quality coins would never circulate! They would be hoarded.� The reply: Indeed, they would be hoarded. But, let us reflect that there are two types of circulation, active and passive. The active circulation is of those bills and coins we are willing to spend first; the passive circulation is of coins such as the �Libertad�, which we will only spend as a last resort. The silver coins, with full and clearly determined legal tender value, will be circulating passively, as savings, but fully useable by the holder, at any time. This passive circulation is called �hoarding�, but it is still circulating, legal tender money, held in reserve for emergency use.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The value of the �Libertad� coin would be a floating value, and only a coin like the �Libertad� can have a floating value, because it has no nominal value stamped on it. A stamped or engraved value on a silver or gold coin, is an insuperable obstacle to circulation, active or passive, because the actually floating value of silver and gold makes any silver or gold coin with a stamped value obsolete as money, the moment it is coined. Such a coin will usually be issued with a �face value� or nominal value far in excess of its actual intrinsic worth. It offers very little protection from devaluation, to the holder, because of this circumstance. And the final destination of such coinage, is the smelter, to which it is doomed whenever the intrinsic value of the silver or gold, rises above the nominal or face value stamped upon it and expressed in a number of units of paper money.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> A silver coin can only endure indefinitely in circulation, if it has no nominal value. And the �Libertad� is such a coin. <o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> It would acquire full legal tender status, by means of a daily quote for such value, by the Banco de Mexico. It would thus be money, along with the paper bills and base metal coins presently in circulation.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> If the price of silver rises sufficiently, the floating value of the coin will increase. Two buffers avoid a constant modification of the floating legal tender value: the first buffer, is the seignorage of the Banco de Mexico, who can accept some fluctuation in the cost of the silver being coined; the second buffer, arises from the fact that the legal tender value is to be expressed in round figures ending in zero or in five. That is, $75 pesos, or $80 pesos, or $90 pesos, etc. <o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> If the exchange value of the peso declines, the floating value of the coin will increase. The same buffers avoid a daily modification of the legal tender value.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> What if the price of silver declines, or if the peso appreciates against the dollar, as it has in fact been doing? In this case, our proposal is that a floating legal tender value, once established by the Banco de Mexico, shall not be reduced.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> It is absolutely necessary that a coin to be used as money � whether actively or passively, whether in trade or as hoarded savings � shall not be reduced in its legal tender value. A $100 pesos paper money bill cannot be turned into a $90 peso bill. And a silver coin, with a quoted value, cannot be subjected to a reduction in its legal tender value, without destroying confidence in that coin as money. A floating quoted legal tender value for the coin, must under no circumstances be reduced.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> A stable quoted value of the silver coin, if the price of silver declines, only means that the Banco de Mexico is obtaining a higher seignorage or profit in minting this coin.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> If the exchange value of the peso were to rise considerably, then the same amount of pesos would buy more dollars. The purchase of dollars would certainly not arise from the exchange of �Libertad� coins, which would purchase more dollars if the holder wished to purchase them with these coins. The purchaser of dollars will choose to use his paper money to buy dollars, and only use �Libertad� coins to purchase dollars as a last resort, because of the higher quality of the silver money. Lesser quality money is used for trade, higher quality money is kept back as savings.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The Banco de Mexico would never see a �flight from silver� into either the paper pesos it issues, or dollars in its reserves.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The three stipulations which are the key to introducing silver into circulation in Mexico � or anywhere else, for that matter � are:<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> No nominal value.<o:p> </o:p> A floating legal tender value<o:p> </o:p> No reduction in a legal tender value, once established.<o:p> </o:p> The �Libertad� coin would circulate � actively in trade or passively as savings � with no problem at all, along with the paper money Mexico currently uses, and which Mexico will most probably continue to use for many years to come.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The advantages and incentive to savings provided by a silver coin, are obvious. Holding �Libertad� coins under this proposal, would become true investment in savings, and not speculation regarding future rises in price, as at present, since the silver money would be useable along with paper, for trade, at any moment the holder desired to use it thus. No longer would it be necessary to find a buyer for his silver coins, as at present. The �Libertad� becomes money.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The quantity of silver money that could be put into circulation in Mexico in this way, is practically unlimited. <o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The great importance of accepting this proposal, is best expressed in the words of Nobel prize winner, Milton Friedman:<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> ��it is worth discussing radical changes, not in the expectation that they will be adopted promptly but for two other reasons. One is to construct an ideal goal, so that incremental changes can be judged by whether they move the institutional structure toward or away from that ideal. The other reason is very different. It is so that if a crisis requiring or facilitating radical change does arise, alternatives will be available that have been carefully developed and fully explored.� � Milton Friedman, Professor (Emeritus) of Economics at the University of Chicago and Hoover Institution Senior Research Fellow, Stanford University, and Nobel Laureate. (Our emphasis).<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Another Nobel Laureate, Robert Mundell, has stated in his essay, �Uses and Abuses of Gresham�s Law in History�, that any amount of high quality money circulating along with paper money, adds a measure, limited though it may be, to the total quality of the circulating medium. Thus the silver �Libertad�, introduced into the Mexican monetary system, will add to the quality of that monetary system, and the greater the relative quantity of that quality money, the greater the quality of the monetary system as a whole.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> In the present circumstances of monetary uncertainty throughout the world, and in view of the proximity and the weight of the U.S. dollar upon the Mexican economy, it is prudent to search for an alternative which will open the way to an independent monetary system of quality, which can sustain itself on its own, among the monetary systems of the rest of the world.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Silver, a traditionally Mexican money, is the clearest avenue open to Mexico.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Though not the central objective of monetizing silver, undoubtedly the coinage of large amounts of �Libertad� coins, which would be eagerly accepted by all Mexicans, would impact upon the price of silver, and be of great benefit to Mexican mining, which is providing large amounts of silver to the world markets, at ridiculously low prices, to the detriment of Mexican mining and the Mexican economy, which is hungry for a mass means of savings in a medium which will guarantee the conservation of value through the years.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> What if this issuance of �Libertad� coins were carried to an extreme? We need not worry about such hypothetical doubts; the quantity to be issued is still subject to decision by the Banco de Mexico. It is doubtful they will be willing to issue large quantities of this coin. But, following the thinking of Milton Friedman, that is not really important: what is vitally important is that under this proposal an alternative is established and another tool for monetary policy will be in place and ready to be applied when a crisis erupts.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> www.plata.com.mx

steel_g | 06-16-2006 05:39 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers here is where it talks about the 10 percent... http://goldismoney.info/forums/archi...p/t-19387.html Maple Leaf Steve 03-18-2005, 03:42 AM Mexico Mulls Silver Lining Against Currency Crash March 13, 2005 By Pav Jordan Reuters MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - An influential Mexican businessman wants to reintroduce silver coins as legal currency -- as in Mexico's 16th century heyday -- and, far-fetched as it may sound, the idea is winning support. The Senate has already passed the initiative, and the lower house is expected to vote soon on the bill, which has struck a nerve in a country where decades of financial crisis have fomented a deep distrust of paper currency. The central bank opposes the plan as anachronistic. Hugo Salinas Price, founder of the specialty retailer Elektra, says silver could be the shield to protect Mexicans' savings from another currency collapse. "The idea was born from the need to protect the currency," said Price, whose son, Ricardo Salinas, is chief executive of Mexico's No. 2 broadcaster, TV Azteca. Mexico's peso is stable now, and has actually strengthened of late, but fear of currency collapse is etched deep in the Mexican psyche after previous financial crises. Mexico was a top supplier of silver coins during the colonial era, when they were significant components of the Spanish and British treasuries. The minting of coins in the New World began in 1535 in Mexico City. NO NOMINAL VALUE According to Price and advocate lawmakers interviewed by Reuters, the new coins would be valued according to the price of silver as a commodity, with the central bank, Banco de Mexico, managing coinage and charging a 10 percent seigniorage. The 1-ounce silver coin, called the Libertad (Liberty), would have no nominal value engraved upon it, and would circulate alongside the conventional peso currency. Its worth would be stated daily in a central bank quote. Price said the Libertad would be protected from losing value because losses on commodity markets would be compensated for by central bank valuations. Representatives of the central bank could not be reached to comment, but it has rejected the idea in arguments to legislators, citing concerns ranging from counterfeiting to minting costs. Independent economists also argue against monetizing silver, saying it has no place in a modern world of interconnected and open economies. Rafael Urquia, an analyst with Banamex Accival brokerage in Mexico City, said the plan would limit the flexibility of monetary policy. "I am inclined to think that this will not pass (Congress)," Urquia said in a recent interview. "I would like to think that the legislators sitting on economic committees have some common sense." PAST CRISES REMEMBERED Opponents also cite the costs of adapting the currency system to incorporate silver coins, and list the subsequent transaction costs and even minting costs as other concerns. "This idea of a hybrid currency seeks the best of both worlds -- and I think that would be difficult," Urquia said. Still, the 1994-95 financial meltdown known as the "Tequila crisis" is just the most recent example of why some Mexicans are eager for an alternative safe haven for their money. Despite recent advances, Mexico still has one of Latin America's lowest rates of savings and bank credit. Most past crises have coincided with presidential elections, and the tight, three-way race for the 2006 vote has generated worries that the peso could be in for a steep decline. Still, Mexico produced some 3 million ounces of silver in 2004 and state governors and legislators say the plan could give a boost to the economies of states producing silver. "We see this as a viable initiative," said Fernando Guzman, a federal deputy with the governing National Action Party. "It would bring a new vitality to the state economies." Proponents of silver money cite Gresham's law -- named after the financial agent of England's Queen Elizabeth I, Sir Thomas Gresham (1519-1579) -- to support arguments that people tend to save currencies with intrinsic values when they are traded alongside fiduciary monies. "I can tell you one thing for sure, I don't always stop to pick up a peso if I drop it," said Violeta de la Torre, an office administrator. "But I certainly wouldn't leave a silver ounce lying in the street." http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=7885125

Book | 06-16-2006 06:30 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Before this thread I had never heard of "seigniorage" before. Very relevant steel g and messianicdruid. The Great Ag is being a good sport here. :beer:

The Great Ag | 06-16-2006 09:53 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyldwil (Post 275806) Thank you for taking the time to help us understand this...it is very interesting to me. Maybe I'm just stupid, but I still don't understand what happens if silver hits 25$/oz. and up. what does trade up to 50.00$ mean? Sorry I have not been clear,Wyldwil. When the spot price of silver goes over $20 per ounce you would not spend the $20 silver liberty because it is worth more than than its face value. Obviously that is why we don't see pre 1964 coinage in circulation anymore. To make the silver spendable the creators bump up the next base which is $50. So your 1 ounce of silver that purchased $20 worth of goods and services now buys $50 worth of goods and services. Does that make sense? Why chose $50 rather than $30? Good question. The reason is simply because we don't have a $30 FRN. It would look odd to have that denomination. Heck some people think $2 FRN is counterfeit and will call the cops. Also, if 20 million LD's are in circulation, than 20 million $'s (FRN's) have been spent on these already? What happen if I buy 1000$ LD's, does someone go and buy silver to back those, or is there 20 million sitting in a vault somewhere already backing the existing currency? Hope my questions make sense Yes, currently there is an equal amount of silver to back the silver certificates in circulation. You do not need silver to back the silver pieces. Each month a third party audit is done to verify the amount of silver held and the amount of certificates in circulation. Here is the link to see the monthly audits.
If I have not given enough info, ask for more clarity. Let me dispell some rumors before they fester into facts. The post stating Liberty dollars is a multi-level marketing (MLM) system are 100% inaccurate. MLM systems, like AMWAY are set up so that if I sponsor, say Book, and he sells $1000 dollars worth of product, I get a percentage of his sales. If Book signs up as a Liberty Associate, I get a one time referral fee of $100 from NORFED. Book could put $1 million Liberty dollars in circulation and I would not a cent of profit. The Great Ag

The Great Ag | 06-16-2006 09:58 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by RealityCheck (Post 275749) This whole thing just doesn't sit right with me. I couldn't see anyone accepting these, and if they did they would probably lose thier job once their employer brings their cash to the bank only to find the bank wont accept them. These aren't real dollars Our FRNs are not real dollars either, we just pretend they are. and people won't percieve them as real dollars, they will percieve them as rounds with a high mark up that are stamped "dollars". I mean the guy who makes these could just take his bullion, stamp these, then go around spending it for six dollars more then its worth. Exactly, Reality check. He could take 1 oz of silver and stamp $100 face value if he wanted. The question is would the public take it. Our Constitution allows private citizens to creat our own money. The money belongs to the people not to the gov't. Until 1933 you could take gold or silver bullion to the mint and they would mint it into coins. rue fact.If actually works consitently, then I say we all get into the bussines. I'm gonna start right away, but mine will be way better. I will stamp them as $100 each and will then go on a shopping spree with them. I don't care if you guys want to buy any of them off me. I don't need your money, I 'll just spend my $100 coins! If the marketplace will take it. Go for it!:banana: I will instantly make 10x on my money risk free, and feel great that I'm using honest money. Even at $100 it would be more honest than our FRNs.:rolleyes: Now am I missing something here or is this how it works?
The Great Ag

The Great Ag | 06-16-2006 10:02 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by steel_g (Post 275838) Okay, according to http://www.onlygold.com/TutorialPage...ion_tables.htm to convert grains to troy ounces one must multiply the number of grains by .0021 Therefore a Constitutional "dollar" of 371.25 grains is : 371.25 * .0021 = .779625 Soooo, using the spot price used above, wouldn't a Constitutional "dollar" really be only worth $10.14 * .779625 = $7.905 ??? Am I missing something??:wavey:
You are correct Steel_g. I have not done the math to verify, but remember our silver coins were only 90% pure. The rest, copper, I believe was used the strengthen the coin for durability. At the time when we have silver in our coins, the spot price of silver was set at $1.29 per ounce of fine .999 silver. The Great Ag

Book | 06-16-2006 10:41 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
If Book signs up as a Liberty Associate, I get a one time referral fee of $100 from NORFED. -The Great Ag
Gosh Ag, if we could split it maybe I can delete this whole thread! :listen: Seriously, I think that The Great Ag is being a real sport in this thread. The defense/promotion of the Liberty Dollar ain't easy. Furthermore, this whole discussion about what currency really is is facinating. I'm learning a lot here. :smile:

The Great Ag | 06-17-2006 12:39 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Book (Post 276041) Gosh Ag, if we could split it maybe I can delete this whole thread! :listen: Seriously, I think that The Great Ag is being a real sport in this thread. The defense/promotion of the Liberty Dollar ain't easy. Furthermore, this whole discussion about what currency really is is facinating. I'm learning a lot here. Easier than you think, Book. Defending truth is always easy, yet hard to do. :smile:
Your on, Book! Sign up to be a Liberty Associate, and I will split the $100 referral 50/50 with you. But don't delete the thread. Matter of fact, I will go one step further in all seriousness. Anyone who signs up to be a Liberty Associate, I will split the referral 50/50. Seriously! Ain't I nice. :rofl: I think you have a good idea. I think a lot of people, including GIMers do not think about money. If it spends that is all that counts. How many GIMers write wtshtf I will have my PMs to barter, or exchange for goods and services? Atleast 5 posts a day (I made that figure up, I don't know what the figure is, but its a lot). Here is the problem, there could be no standard at which to exchange/barter PMs for goods and services. It is up to you to negotiate an exchange. Even on this thread, GIMers would rather negotiate a deal than have silver minted into currency. I am baffled by that, but again, most people do not think about money at all. Hell, I didn't until a few months ago. With the Liberty Dollar, there is a defined value, you do not have to convince a vender to go online to kitco.com or call some number to find out that current spot price of PMs. Barter has always been clumsy at its best. Back to our FRNs. Here is how our gov't makes money. What I am about to write may not make sense, but understand it is 100% true. Even G-Khan will agree. He may not use Liberty dollars, and that's okay, at least he knows the score. For example, let's say our gov't needs $1 billion dollars for whatever. How does it get the money? Step #1It calls the fed, and the fed says send over $1 billion in bonds and securities. Step #2Congress tells the US Treasury to print $1 billion in bonds & securities. (Essentially, bonds and securities are IOUs backed by the full faith and credit of the United States of America). Step #3The US Treasury delivers $1 billion in bonds to the fed. Step #4 The fed takes the bonds and monetizes them. The fed says these bonds have value, and the fed writes a check for $1 billion using the bonds as an asset. The fed did not lower its assets to write this check. It literally created the money out of nothing. The kicker is, the fed charges the gov't (read us citizens) interest for monetizing debt. Step #5 The fed pays the US Treasury for printing and minting the currency (about .03 cents for each FRN regardless of denomination, 1.03 cents for each cent, just under .08 cents for each dime, .14 cents for each quarter and .26 cents for each golden, Sacagawea dollar). Step #6 The fed takes the currency and distributes it around the country, selling it for face value Book, here is your seigniorage outrageous isn't it! Step #7 The fed waits for the gov't to send it interest payments, which are tax free. Another point of interest, when the fed monetized the bonds, it did not create the money needed to pay the interest. So the gov't had to give more bonds to the fed so it could meet the interest payments. It's similar to using credit card #2 to pay the interest on credit card #1. No matter how many credit cards you use, you just cannot get out of debt With that said, you can see why I prefer the Liberty Dollar to FRNs anyday of the week. Using FRNs keep us in shackles to the fed and the gov't. I would even use Lincoln's Greenbacks. They were backed by nothing, too, like our FRNs but they were printed without debt. Lincoln broke the Constitution to do that, though. The Great Ag

The Great Ag | 06-17-2006 01:10 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Book (Post 275791) Let's take note of a simple fact here: One-ounce generic silver rounds are not "legal tender" and they ALL are worth the same...one-ounce of silver. The notion that "Liberty Dollars" are "worth" more than any other generic silver round is absurd. The notion that "Liberty Dollars" are a way of sticking it to The Man or The Government or The Banksters can be said about any generic silver round. Using FRNs is just sticking it to yourself. Using Liberty Dollars gets you off Uncle Sam's dole. Uncle Sam is like a crack head. He's on the pipe. :yippee: No matter how much he wants to quit, he can't. As long as we use his money we use his pipe, tooWrap the Flag around a generic silver round and you still have just a generic silver round. Paying more for one one-ounce of silver over any other one-ounce of silver is illogical. Saying that buying a certain generic silver round is more "Patriotic" than buying any other generic silver round is nonsense. :D
The Great Ag

Book | 06-17-2006 01:55 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Using FRNs is just sticking it to yourself. -The Great Ag
I think everybody here at GIM agrees with that one. One-ounce generic silver rounds should be recognized as legal tender. Paying $20 for those one-ounce generic silver rounds just makes no sense when Kitco presently says that they is worth only $10.13 :yippee:

californiajeff | 06-17-2006 03:23 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by dwightbelew (Post 275656) Okay, guys and girls,,I'm brand new here and this is my first post ever and I know it's in the wrong place,,it's just that I don't know how to put it in the right place. I'm an absolute dummy on a computer. BUT! I have a question. I'm a jeweler in Tn and have been for 32 years. Also a diamond seller/setter, goldsmith. I was around when the gold/silver frenzy hit in '79/'80 and made a lot of $$$. I'm pretty loaded right now with physical gold/silver and waiting for it to go back up. Did I say,,I have a question,, Yeah, I did. Question: I have a customer wanting to sell me a considerable amount of Tantalum. She has a few pounds of it and I just don't have a market for it. Who's a buyer for this stuff? What's it worth? Anybody got an answer for me? Thanks, Dwight in Tn.
I would say avoid the Tantalum. I am not sure of the current market price but it was only about $34 a pound in 1998. I don't even know how you could certify that it truly is tantalum.

Book | 06-17-2006 06:23 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
here and this is my first post ever and I know it's in the wrong place
:offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic:

The Great Ag | 06-17-2006 07:25 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Book (Post 276200) I think everybody here at GIM agrees with that one. One-ounce generic silver rounds should be recognized as legal tender.That would be nice, but the gov't won't do that, ever, unless we make them. Paying $20 for those one-ounce generic silver rounds just makes no sense when Kitco presently says that they is worth only $10.13 :yippee:
Book, you have to remember that the Liberty dollar is a currency and not a PM. From that standpoint paying more for a silver backed currency does make sense. As I said earlier, a business owner does not want the hassles involved trying to figure out the value of 1oz of silver or gold. What if the you and the store owner do not agree, what then. Everything breaks down. Suppose the Liberty dollar had a face value of $13. Would you use it then? How much time before silver is worth more than the face value. You cannot immediately remint the $13 face value to say $15. It would take time to send it off to NORFED to be converted. You have to choose a denomination that is high enough above the spot price of silver to be usable stable, and simple to use. The question really comes down to, if you do not want to use FRNs, what system would you use. Simply saying I would use my generic rounds is not good enough, as that is simple barter, and barter is clumsy at best. We need a currency that is not backed by debt and is stable and simple to use. The Great Ag

Book | 06-17-2006 07:36 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers 1 Attachment(s) Attachment 15795 This real American Silver Eagle from the US Mint costs a lot less than your generic silver round. Why pay you more [$20] when it could be used as currency like you have described??? :yippee:

The Great Ag | 06-17-2006 07:39 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Book (Post 276296) Attachment 15795 This real American Silver Eagle from the US Mint costs a lot less than your generic silver round. Why pay you more [$20] when it could be used as currency like you have described??? :yippee:
Because is has a face value of $1. Why would a store owner give you more than face value? Because you tell him it is worth more? How much more, and how does he verify? It is too complicated already to everyday transaction. The Great Ag

Book | 06-17-2006 07:48 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
But is has a face value of $1. -The Great Ag
One ounce of silver is one ounce of silver. Your generic one-ounce silver round is suddenly worth more than one ounce of silver because you stamp a $20 face value? Pull the other one Ag. You might as well stamp $200 on your one-ounce generic silver round. Then it will "buy" ten times as much. :rolleyes:

The Great Ag | 06-17-2006 07:52 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Book (Post 276301) Pull the other one Ag. You might as well stamp $200 on your one-ounce generic silver round. Then it will "buy" ten times as much. :rolleyes:
As long as the public is willing to take it. Go ahead. That is the true test of any currency in a free market; its acceptance by the public. With FRNs we have no choice but to take them, legal tender laws. If we could choose NOT to take the FRN and use something else it would be interesting to see which currencies would suceed and which would fail. The Great Ag

hoarder | 06-17-2006 07:55 AM
Relative or Absolute The Liberty Dollar does have value as a currency above and beyond it's intrinsic value and thus is priced higher than it's intrinsic value. However it's value as a currency (beyond the existing currency value of ordinary bullion) is extremely limited and not worth the considerable extra expense. The Liberty Dollar is the currency of activists, it presents a learning curve for those trying to understand "money" and it's laudable in that regard. But the Liberty Dollar is not appealing to investors at all. Von Nothaus has given Americans food for thought. He has given us an alternative that will never be. If the public became aware enough of monetary issues to widely use the Liberty Dollar, they would soon be using bullion instead.

The Great Ag | 06-17-2006 08:38 AM
Re: Relative or Absolute Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder (Post 276305) The Liberty Dollar does have value as a currency above and beyond it's intrinsic value and thus is priced higher than it's intrinsic value. However it's value as a currency (beyond the existing currency value of ordinary bullion) is extremely limited and not worth the considerable extra expense. How so? Do you mean because a lot of people are not aware of it, and may not take it in payment? The Liberty Dollar is the currency of activists, it presents a learning curve for those trying to understand "money" and it's laudable in that regard. But the Liberty Dollar is not appealing to investors at all. Exactly. The Liberty dollar was never meant as an investment. Its sole purpose is to act as a medium of exchange. Von Nothaus has given Americans food for thought. He has given us an alternative that will never be. Now you're being too optimistic. If we do not have an alternative to the FRN then we can never be free. Whoever controls the money supply controls the country. If the public became aware enough of monetary issues to widely use the Liberty Dollar, they would soon be using bullion instead. I don't think so for the reasons I have listed previously. Bullion is no better than barter.
If you want to keep using FRNs then we are supporting the system like HyperTiger correctly writes. If you are fine with that, that's okay. Atleast you know the truth of our monetary system. The public will ultimately decide if Liberty dollars have a place in our country. The Great Ag

Johnny99 | 06-17-2006 10:08 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
The Liberty Dollar does have value as a currency above and beyond it's intrinsic value and thus is priced higher than it's intrinsic value. However it's value as a currency (beyond the existing currency value of ordinary bullion) is extremely limited and not worth the considerable extra expense. How so? Do you mean because a lot of people are not aware of it, and may not take it in payment?
My mortgage company won't accept it. My electric company won't accept it. The telephone company won't accept it. It seems like you have to sell the counterparty on the idea of accepting the Liberty Dollar as equivalent to $20 FRN. Unless there is a sign "Liberty Dollar Accepted Here", I would run the risk of being arrested by the authorities for fraud. I think I'm better off smelting my own silver into rounds & stamping $20 on them. If I can get good at passing Liberty Dollars off as $20 FRN, I may as well profit from the seignorage. By the way, is that $100 referral bonus paid in FRNs or in Liberty Dollars?

The Great Ag | 06-18-2006 12:00 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny99 (Post 276657) My mortgage company won't accept it. My electric company won't accept it. The telephone company won't accept it. It seems like you have to sell the counterparty on the idea of accepting the Liberty Dollar as equivalent to $20 FRN. Unless there is a sign "Liberty Dollar Accepted Here", I would run the risk of being arrested by the authorities for fraud. You are not commiting fraud Johnny99. There is nothing illegal or unlawful about the Liberty dollar. In terms of paying your mortgage, or other monthly bills, give it 2 or 3 years and you will be able to. This is a young currency, all things happen in time. I think I'm better off smelting my own silver into rounds & stamping $20 on them. Give it a shot. As long as the public takes it, and you do not misrepresent your $20 Johnny's Dollar as legal tender, you are ok. The Constitution guarantees a private citizens' right to manufacture currency. You or I could do it, too. If I can get good at passing Liberty Dollars off as $20 FRN, I may as well profit from the seignorage. Undoubtedly! :beer: By the way, is that $100 referral bonus paid in FRNs or in Liberty Dollars? Paid in FRNs. Go ahead and sign up, reference me, Court Jones, and when I get paid by NORFED I will give you $50 paid to you in FRNs.
There is nothing stopping you from minting your own currency. Until you get the bugs worked out, it will have to stay local. Give it a shot, and if you are successful, you will be very rich! Heck, do it rightly and I will join your bandwagon. I'll spend your $20 Johnnys alongside my Libertys. :birthday: Slowly America will be restored to the glory she onced had. The Great Ag

RossL | 06-18-2006 01:09 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Ag (Post 275642) Just kidding, Book. But seriously, what is wrong with a private corporation and a private citizen, making a small profit. When I spend them that is a savings to me, and if people buy them from me, I pass the savings to them. Minimally they will save 5%, maybe more it depends on my price. So $19 gets you $20. The fed doesn't do that.
A private corporation that creates value earns its profit. A scam doesn't earn profit, it cheats from people. One ounce of silver is an ounce of silver. Your proclimation that your silver coin is equal or higher to some number of FRNs is just as worthless as the promise of the Fed Reserve Bank. quote: I pass the savings to them. RossL: you cheat people.

steel_g | 06-18-2006 04:56 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Book and Ag... what do you think of the Phoenix $ currency system? I am not going to put up a link to them for fear of being called a spammer. It seems similar to the Goldmoney website and not as clumsy as the Liberty Dollar system.

steel_g | 06-18-2006 06:36 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/edwin42.htm HOKA HEY! PART 1 Dr. Edwin Vieira, Jr., Ph.D., J.D. May 30, 2006 NewsWithViews.com An old adage warns us that "those who refuse to learn from history are condemned to repeat it." This is not because of some inexorable, mysterious decree of Fate, but because (as the ancient Greek historian Thucydides observed) "the kind of events that once took place will by reason of human nature take place again." One need not look to the distant past, either, to glean material predictive of the immediate future. For an outstanding example, patriotic Americans can find many ominous, yet also instructive, parallels between their situation today and the predicament of the Plains Indians during the late 1800s. These parallels are particularly striking where money and banking are concerned. For example: Just as the Establishment of the late 1800s was intent on extending its version of "civilization" to�or, perhaps more descriptively, running it roughshod over�the Tribes, so too does the contemporary Establishment intend to bring to�or, perhaps more descriptively, to impose upon�common Americans a new and improved brand of "civilization," under the trademark of "the New World Order." As to money and banking especially, this is an old song, as fallacious as it is familiar. Innovations in the manipulation of "currency" and "credit" are always touted as the products of advanced thought; whereas gold and silver are invariably derided as "barbarous relics" from a primitive age. And the Federal Reserve System�the apogee of modern central banking�is everywhere praised as the great exemplar of "scientific" management of money. Yet gold and silver are obviously no more "barbarous relics" than the free market itself, because they are the media of exchange that a truly free market always chooses (otherwise, their use as money would not so often have been inhibited, even prohibited, by governments and central banks). And the main tenets of central banking�(i) that the supplies of "currency" and "credit" must expand step by step with production of goods and services, so as to maintain a stable "price level;" and (ii) that the self-destructive tendencies of fractional-reserve banking can be fended off by cartelizing the banks under governmental aegis and supplying them with an open-handed "lender of last resort"�are no more "scientific" than the utterly discredited theories of "central economic planning," of which central banking forms a subset. Or, for that matter, no more plausible than dialectical materialism, historical determinism, and the other assorted pseudo-intellectual claptrap of Marxism�which shares a mutual affinity with central banking, according to a key plank in The Communist Manifesto that calls for "[c]entralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly." Just as the Establishment of the late 1800s disparaged the Plains Indians as incorrigible "savages," stubbornly and stupidly standing in the way of "progress," so too does the contemporary Establishment dismiss average Americans as a culturally backward and politically reactionary booboisie whose outmoded ideas, traditions, and way of life retard social evolution. In the field of money and banking as well, proponents of the precious metals as money are roundly derided as doctrinaire "gold bugs," economic "Neanderthalsm," or worse; whereas the Federal Reserve System's touts are fulsomely described as "enlightened." Yet, as a form of "central economic planning," central banking is economically atavistic in theory and ultimately unworkable in practice, because it always operates on the basis of ignorance, in comparison to the wealth of relevant information available only to the free market. And, as a species of unrepresentative, elitist�and, if the truth be told in the bluntest possible terms, fascist�bureaucracy, politically privileged central banking is far removed from the "Republican Form of Government" that the Constitution requires the United States to "guarantee to every State in this Union" (Article IV, Section 4). Just as the Establishment of the late 1800s denuded the Indians of their Tribal sovereignties and degraded them to ill-treated "wards" of the General Government, so too does the present-day Establishment decry America's National sovereignty as a ridiculous anachronism and a galling impediment to the New World Order, and plan to set it aside�first, through regionalization, involving the economic and political merger of the United States, Canada, and Mexico; then, through hemispheric to finally full-fledged global government. Where money and banking are concerned, globalization is also an imperative. Indeed, the present push for globalization of national economies and then polities probably results more from what the Establishment perceives as the necessity to globalize the contemporary monetary and banking systems than from any other cause. The economic reason is that a global "lender of last resort," and perhaps a source of some altogether new "currency" and "credit," will be required to keep the major central banks of various countries�the Federal Reserve System included�afloat in a global liquidity crisis. After all, to stave off the collapse of major banks within various countries during domestic liquidity crises was the purpose of setting up independent central banks in each nation. And the same strategy applies in spades to an international liquidity crisis among national or regional central banks that now operate without an apex to their pyramid of "currency" and "credit" expansion. The political reason for the globalization of money and banking is that, although the Federal Reserve System now functions as a de facto global central bank (at least to the extent that its "currency" is employed as a "reserve" by most other countries), a truly global central bank, functioning both de facto and de jure for the world as a whole, cannot be the instrument of only one nation or regional grouping of nations. For that nation or group could change its political views on money and banking at any time, throwing a money wrench into the globalist machinery. True enough, if a national central bank, operating as a de facto global central bank, returned to some form of free-market gold or silver standard, the common people of the whole world would eventually benefit. The Establishment, however, would lose out, because its position depends on monetary and banking systems utterly divorced from gold and silver, and thereby from the economic discipline of the free market. And, because the Establishment cannot take that chance, it must promote the globalization of money and banking. The pressing legal reason for the globalization of money and banking is that the present de facto global central bank�the Federal Reserve System�is subject to the Constitution of the United States, which mandates "gold and silver Coin" as the only official "Money" and "Tender in Payment of Debts" (Article I, Section 8, Clause 5 and Article I, Section 10, Clause 1). An international liquidity crisis could easily turn into an American constitutional crisis, in which the illegality of the Federal Reserve System could be identified as the cause of the economic chaos, and the System's political supporters the culprits. Such a situation could sweep into office a political movement that would reverse a century of monetary and banking policy, and return the economy of one major country�and, soon enough, the economy of every other country dependent upon it�to money bottomed on a specie standard and banking stripped of the abusive special privilege of "fractional reserves." For all these reasons, to maintain its power the Establishment must eventually separate and insulate the present systems of money and banking from each and every national sovereignty. That is, each and every national sovereignty must be denied jurisdiction over money and banking, even within its own territory. The monetary and banking systems must themselves become wholly independent�and, in fact, private�sovereignties, with global extraterritoriality allowing them to operate within every nation but subject to none. They must become totally unresponsive to (as well as unrepresentative of) the popular will everywhere, yet capable of imposing their will on the people anywhere. Just as the Establishment of the late 1800s declared the Plains Indians to be "hostiles" if they dared to defend themselves and their homelands against economic, political, and cultural aggression, so too does the contemporary Establishment denounce Americans as "extremists" if they strenuously oppose�even only through force of argument, rather than force of arms�the systematic destruction of their country and impoverishment of her citizens. Perhaps nowhere is the historical parallel more patent than with respect to money and banking. Today, of course, "gold bugs" are subjected only to ridicule in the mass media. In the early 1930s, though, Americans who resisted the General Government's seizure of their gold were most definitely treated as "hostiles"�even to the extent of having President Franklin Roosevelt apply against them the Trading With the Enemy Act of World War I. Even now this statute remains on the books, providing that "[d]uring time of war, the President may, through any agency that he may designate, and under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe, * * * investigate, regulate, or prohibit * * * the importing, exporting, hoarding, melting, or earmarking of gold or silver coin or bullion" (Title 12, United States Code, Section 95a(1)(A)). In this era of a perpetual (albeit undeclared and therefore unconstitutional) "war on terrorism," during the course of a monetary and banking crisis this statute could be employed just as it was in the 1930s, on the strength of the precedent created at that time. And, once more, common Americans who held gold would be falsely designated their own country's "enemy." Finally, just as the Establishment of the late 1800s employed certain historically proven techniques of oppression to beat the Plains Indians into submission, so too does today's Establishment�albeit with far greater subtlety, sophistication, and sinister cynicism. The next part of this commentary will explain how.

steel_g | 06-18-2006 06:38 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/edwin43.htm HOKA HEY! PART 2 Dr. Edwin Vieira, Jr., Ph.D., J.D. June 6, 2006 NewsWithViews.com Inasmuch as human nature never changes, hardly surprising are the similarities between the oppression visited upon the Plains Indians and the oppression common Americans suffer today. For example: (i) The Establishment of the late 1800s destroyed the Plains Indians' economic independence, self-reliance, self-sufficiency, and security by killing off the buffalo and thereby rendering the nomadic hunters abjectly dependent on niggardly handouts from the Great Father in Washington's corrupt Indian agents. This was economic subjugation through control of the actual physical resources necessary for the Indians' survival. Yet even before that era, the Establishment had already created institutions designed to deprive all common Americans of their economic independence, self-reliance, self-sufficiency, and security�as well as the ability to retain the real wealth they created and earned by dint of their own efforts. These institutions included the first and second Banks of the United States, numerous State banks, and the National Banks first set up during the Civil War. Eventually, these schemes for the incestuous coupling of bank and state matured into the modern Federal Reserve System, under the aegis of which bank and state now appear inseparable. This was�and remains�economic subjugation through control over so-called "financial" resources. Control over "financial" resources does provide an extensive measure of control over physical resources of all kinds�otherwise, to modern men steeped in the sin of avarice, it would be pointless. But its great strength as a devious device for social control is that it is indirect, operating through the pseudo-intellectual and legalistic fictions called "currency" and "credit" that not one person in ten thousand understands. Contemporary "currency" purports to be a medium of exchange, a measure of value, a store of value, and even "legal tender" for all debts, public and private�although, in contradistinction to the "money" of the free market and the Constitution, it is not itself composed of silver, gold, or any other valuable physical substance, and is not redeemable in any such substance at a fixed rate of exchange guaranteed by law. At base, such "currency" amounts to nothing more than the politicians' trick of transmuting their naked command into an instrument for transferring real wealth. After all, translated from the Latin, the familiar term "fiat currency" means "let it be currency." Such "currency" is not akin to true "money" by dint of its economic nature and free acceptance among people in the marketplace, but is required�by dint of the government's physical compulsion when other means fail�to be taken or treated as "money" by everyone. And contemporary "credit" is even more ethereal, being nothing other than the creation of new "currency" out of new debt�the bankers' alchemical trick of transforming liabilities into assets simply by saying it is so. Moreover, modern "currency" and "credit" are not even necessary resources for contemporary Americans. The Plains Indians could not survive without food�if not buffalo meat, then whatever rations the Indian agents deigned to provide. Their dependency was physical, and eventually became insurmountable by any actions within their power. Contemporary Americans, conversely, could easily survive without today's fictitious "currency" and "credit"�and would be far better off without them, and certainly without the parasitical politicians and special-interest groups that fatten off of them. Modern Americans' dependency is psychopathological, and its continuation largely self-imposed, proving once again the truth in the wag's dictum that "You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time�and that's good enough!." Yet, although ultimately derived from nothing more substantive than economic, political, and legal fictions and deceptions, the Establishment's ability to create "currency" and "credit" ex nihilo and ad infinitum remains the primary source of its tremendous economic, political, and cultural power, both open and subterranean. On the surface, that power dominates both the economy and the political process. The entire economic life of the United States has degenerated into servile dependence upon whether the Federal Reserve System increases or decreases interest rates (and by how much)�that is, upon how fast the banks create new "currency" and "credit" (because no significant overall contraction in the so-called "money supply" has occurred since the banking collapse of the early 1930s). The Constitution identifies "We the People of the United States" as its authors. The markets are composed of We the People in their capacity as free economic actors. Congress is the agent of We the People in their capacity as political sovereign. And the Board of Governors as well as the entire Federal Reserve System are the mere statutory creatures of Congress. Nonetheless, the markets await each announcement of the bankers' pleasure with baited breath. Congress sits in awed silence as the various Chairmen of the Board of Governors lecture it. And We the People do nothing. Self-evidently, this state of affairs proves that, as a practical matter, where money and banking are concerned the free market is held captive by a special-interest group, the constitutionally empowered National legislature is not the actual lawgiver, and worst of all the titular National sovereign is subordinate to someone else. During the late 1800s and early 1900s, the alliance among politicians, bankers, and their clients in high finance and big business to control America was widely known as "the Money Power." As Frederick Townsend Martin observed in 1911, in his book Passing of the Idle Rich, [Also read the book; "The Coming Battle" originally published in 1899] [i]t matters not one iota what political party is in power or what President holds the reins of office. We are not politicians or public thinkers; we are the rich; we own America; we got it, God knows how, but we intend to keep it if we can by throwing the tremendous weight of our support, our influence, our money, our political connections, our purchased senators, our hungry congressmen, our public-speaking demagogues into the scale against any legislature, any political platform, any presidential campaign that threatens the dignity of our estate. Nothing has changed since then. Today, perspicacious Americans can identify the people who "own America" economically and politically. The question is what can common Americans do about them. Under the surface, too, the power over modern "financial" resources�the power to create "currency" and "credit" ad libitum�exercises an insidiously corrupting and self-reinforcing influence over Americans. This is no accident. Those seeking to exploit, dominate, and oppress others usually attempt, at an early stage of the process, to corrupt their victims, so that they can manipulate and control them through their vices. In the late 1800s, the Establishment corrupted the Plains Indians and undermined their personal self-respect and communal coherence by plying them with "fire water". That was simple psychological corruption mediated through physical addiction. False prosperity generated through unlimited debt made possible by expanding supplies of new "currency" and "credit" emitted by the banks is the contemporary "fire water" on which the Establishment has hooked all too many Americans. Importantly, whereas each Indian's addiction to "fire water" was a personal predicament, and became a social problem only after sufficient numbers succumbed, Americans' intoxication by contemporary "credit" is a socially destructive phenomenon from the inception in every instance in which it is involved. Traditional "credit" is simply a deferred execution of a contractual obligation, as when a buyer purchases some commodity today, but pays for it only later on. In such a transaction, the seller has extended "credit" to the buyer, in the form of time. The buyer may pay more for the commodity than the original price (if the "credit" incurs "interest" or some "service charge"); or the seller may receive less than that price in real terms (if the "credit" does not incur such a surcharge, and the seller has a positive time preference). But, in either event, the transaction involves just those two parties, and has no effect whatsoever on the so-called "money supply" of society as a whole. Different amounts of "money" change hands, depending on the terms of the transaction; but the total supply of "money" throughout society remains the same, whatever the terms. Much contemporary "credit," distinguishably, is made possible only through the creation of new "currency" when the "credit" is extended and for that purpose. A bank "credits" a client's account with some amount of "currency" created in order to make that very loan. Thus, the transaction increases the total "money supply." More consequentially, the new "currency" then enters the economy at a particular point and time, and then spreads through the market on some idiosyncratic path, changing the structure of prices and redistributing real wealth as the market realizes there has been an injection of new purchasing power, and reacts to it. Exactly who the losers in this process may be is difficult to predict. But the bank that generates the new "credit" and its client who employs it are always the winners. And surely society always loses overall. For if banks throughout the system create significant amounts of new "credit" in the capital markets�thereby imposing so-called "forced savings" on the rest of society�their actions set in motion the familiar "business" (or "boom and bust") cycle, leading eventually to depression, or perhaps to hyperinflation followed by depression. And if the banks create new "credit" for the public treasury�that is, by "monetizing public debt"�their actions facilitate a particularly vicious species of "taxation without representation," in which part of the present generation receives the benefits of governmental deficit spending, while future generations of taxpayers�who have cast no votes in the matter�are expected to pay for them. Although socially destructive and politically abusive, the contemporary "currency" and "credit" scheme is self-reinforcing in its degeneracy. Its first stage involves simply the organization of avarice: providing the means by which some people can obtain something for nothing by redistributing other people's wealth through spending new "currency" into circulation. This is bad enough. For the easy availability of "credit" convertible into new "currency" encourages an unbridled, debt-based consumerism, steeped in hedonism, materialism, and a mania for "economic growth" which inevitably results in a self-imposed serfdom of consumers to the creators of "credit" and "currency"�whether those consumers be private individuals or public treasuries. The second stage is worse. It entails support by the clients of the creators of "credit" and "currency" for the entire economic, political, and ideological system that allows the latter to ply their trade�because that system is the only source of future "credit" to subsidize the clients' on-going exorbitant life-styles that require spending beyond their real means. A never-ending cycle of overconsumption, financed with private and public debt floated by expansion of "credit" and "currency," demands support for politicians who promote policies that grease the skids for such false prosperity. This turns voters hooked on debt-based consumerism into dependents of the politicians, rather than the politicians being servants of the voters. In their turn, the politicians become dependent on the bankers�so that political, as well as economic, power inexorably gravitates towards one special-interest group to a degree no free society would ever countenance. The third stage is worse yet. For the types of politicians who support endless expansion of "credit" and "currency" tend to bring with them a compendious agenda of other economic, political, social, and cultural corruptions. For example, no politician who approves of Congress's creation of the Federal Reserve System, and the System's "monetization of public debt," likely employs "original intent" in constitutional interpretation, opposes the delegation of governmental powers to private special-interest groups, believes in limited government, or wants to reduce to the minimum bureaucratic intervention in the free market. Rather, he most probably advocates "the living Constitution" (that is, the Constitution politicians and judges make up as they go along, to serve their immediate interests), political-cum-economic "partnerships" between government and influential private interests, and comprehensive political "management" of the market (what used to be called "central planning," before the collapse of the East bloc finally discredited that rubric). The fourth stage is worst of all. For, after this process has worked its insidious wiles on several generations, spiritual corruption takes over. Whatever they may believe, people act as if there were no god but Mammon, with Caesar his prophet and the bankers his priests. In sum, contemporary "credit" and "currency" constitute a social narcotic more dangerous than the alcohol to which the Plains Indians became addicted. For chemical dependencies hardly ever approach the point at which so many people are affected that an entire society collapses. But a general breakdown has not infrequently afflicted countries hooked on the endless expansion of fictitious "currency" and "credit"1�such as Germany in the early 1920s, and Argentina and other major South American countries serially since World War II. And this is not the only parallel in the history of oppression that contemporary Americans need to recognize as applicable to them.

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steel_g | 06-18-2006 06:40 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/edwin44.htm HOKA HEY! PART 3 Dr. Edwin Vieira, Jr., Ph.D., J.D. June 12, 2006 NewsWithViews.com Other forms of oppression the Plains Indians suffered should serve as object lessons to contemporary Americans. (ii) The Establishment of the late 1800s deceived the Plains Indians politically through numerous "treaties" that the Great Father in Washington imposed on the Tribes but never honored. Similarly, through its phony "two"-party system, the present-day Establishment has stripped Americans of electoral power to regain control of their country's economic system and thus their own lives in their own land. This disability is not primarily a matter of rigged elections. Even where elections are scrupulously honest, the results do not matter. The names and party labels of the politicians who are voted in or out may change, but the policies they eventually enact into law do not. As their forebears did with the Indians, contemporary politicians make innumerable "treaties" with common Americans�platforms of political parties, pledges by candidates, promises of officeholders�the vast majority of which none of them has the least intention of honoring. Even more revealing than this deceitful conduct in general is that modern politicians say nothing at all about reforming�or even investigating the shaky performance of�the monetary and banking systems in particular. Neither the "two" parties, nor their nominees for high office, nor politicians once elected make any promises about money and banking (except, perhaps, that they will urge the Federal Reserve System to expand "credit," thereby exacerbating the problem). None of them questions the legality or expediency of the Federal Reserve System and its special privilege to create "credit" and "currency" out of debt. And none of them proposes to return the country to constitutional "Money" of silver and gold (as Article I, Section 10, Clause 1 requires), to rein in "fractional-reserve banking," or otherwise to establish a system of sound money and honest banking on free-market principles. This calculated reticence exposes whose interests the "two" parties really serve. (iii) The Establishment of the late 1800s generally reviled the Plains Indians' religion, on the ground that it offended the mainstream Christianity of that era. In dealing with white men, the Indians' only recourse was to petition the Great Father in Washington, not the Master of Life (often interpreted by white men as "the Great Spirit") to whom even Christians believed the Great Father was subject. Foresighted Christians (as well as all other monotheists) should have taken no comfort from this, because in less than a century the Establishment came openly to revile Christianity, too�and aggressively to deprive common Americans of any appeal to religion in public affairs, perforce of radical "separation of church and state." Many individuals assume that this dogma is intended only to stop theological bickering among different religious sects from spilling over into practical politics. Its real purpose, however, is far less benign. For the modern Establishment, the only "law" is "positive law"�that is, "law" enacted in some statute, or declared in some judicial opinion. No "higher law" of any kind exists by which to judge the legitimacy�and especially the illegitimacy�of "positive law." This belief plainly negates the principles set out in the Declaration of Independence, that Americans are entitled to "assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them"; that "all men * * * are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"; that "to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"; that "whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government"; and that "when a long train of abuses and usurpations * * * evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." To the contemporary Establishment, however, that contradiction is of scant moment. Indeed, where the Establishment is concerned, outright denial of the Declaration's tenets is the order of the day. To set up its New World Order, the Establishment must deny America's national independence. To that end, it must deny that Americans are entitled "to assume among the powers of the earth" a "separate and equal station"�and assert instead that their incumbent government can tell them so. To that end, the Establishment must deny both that "unalienable Rights" set limits to governmental power, and that, to be legitimate, governmental authority must encompass "just powers" only. To that end, it must deny Americans the right to choose their own form of government�and, in particular, the right to change the form of their government when public officeholders threaten their liberties and prosperity. Above all, the Establishment must deny the very existence of any "higher law"�"the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God"�to which the people can appeal from all these other denials. This complex of negations has long been the rule where money and banking are concerned. As a medium of exchange intended for free and honest men, true "money" self-evidently rests on a "higher law" that binds individuals, private banks, and governments: Thou shalt not steal. Doubtlessly, that inherent connection between function and precept led the Framers of the Constitution to set out Congress's power "[t]o coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin" in the selfsame provision that contains its power to "fix the Standard of Weights and Measures" (Article I, Section 8, Clause 5). This juxtaposition teaches, as a matter of constitutional principle, that "Money" cannot be suffered to be dishonest, any more than "Weights and Measures" can. Yet the recent history of money and banking in America�which must be described as political history, because it can claim next to no basis in constitutional law�is rife with dishonesty. For example, where "Money" is concerned: In the 1930s Congress removed gold coin from the monetary system�not "coin[ing] Money" (as the Constitution requires), but uncoining it. In the 1960s Congress debased America's silver coinage�not honestly "regulating the Value" of "Money," but falsifying it. And, Today, Congress declares paper "currency" to be "legal tender" for all debts, even though all such "currency" is absolutely irredeemable in gold or silver. See Title 31, United States Code, Sections 5103 and 5118(b and c). Similarly, where banking is concerned, Congress licenses "forced savings." Apparently, this is predicated on the assumption that, by redistributing real wealth from average Americans to the bankers and their clients through the emission of new "credit" and "currency," this country will experience greater "economic growth"�and, derivatively, the tax bureaucracies can rake in larger revenues�than if that wealth were left in the possession of the people who actually earned it. (On an analogous theory, in the Kelo case the Supreme Court erased constitutional protections for private property against direct seizure by eminent domain.) Of course, such reasoning would rationalize every variety of dishonest weights and measures, too�because imposing "forced savings" on Americans by short-changing them on goods would also leave more real tangible wealth in the hands of special interests purportedly better able to use it. (iv) The Establishment of the late 1800s assaulted the Plains Indians with the systematic immigration of aggressive, acquisitive white settlers, and incursions by avaricious miners and buffalo hunters, into Tribal lands�all too many of these invasions being illegal, at the least because they violated outstanding treaties. The tactic of conquest through immigration was intended, not simply to despoil the Indians of their lands, but also to destroy them as independent peoples, by denying them the very territory and resources that alone could support their traditional way of life�leaving them with no alternative except to give up their political, economic, and cultural institutions, and be absorbed into an alien society. Unless they forcibly resisted the settlers and other trespassers�in which case the Tribes were subjected to punitive campaigns by the Army aimed at their extermination. Contemporary Americans are victims of the same tactic. Today's massive illegal immigration is no accident, but an agenda; not something about which public officeholders can do nothing, but as to which they are intentionally facilitating everything. If the present-day Establishment cannot deprive the generality of common Americans of their land and their way of life in the straightforward way the Indians were dispossessed, it can and has set about demolishing their traditional culture�economic, social, and political�through an all-out attack of "multiculturalism" in which illegal immigrants serve as shock troops. The goal is to destroy America's national independence�her "separate and equal station" "among the powers of the earth"�first by merger of all the countries in the Northern Hemisphere; followed by merger of all the countries in the Western Hemisphere; and completed by globalization. The means are floods of aliens who, by failing or refusing to assimilate, will deprive America of a cohesive national identity and integrity. Economically, massive illegal immigration provides a cheap and submissive work force, in order to lower the general American standard of living (even more than exportation of jobs is already doing), and thereby grease the economic skids for a regional merger with Mexico. Socially, massive illegal immigration sows division, dissension, and conflict, and sets up opportunities for the Establishment to employ "divide-and-conquer" tactics, so that Americans will not stand shoulder-to-shoulder in defense of national sovereignty. And politically, massive illegal immigration infests this country with people who know and care nothing about the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution in particular, or constitutionalism in general, and thus dilute the influence of those who still do. All this will lay the groundwork for a Caesaristic police state, because that is the only form of "government" most illegal immigrants have ever known; that is what they will assume prevails here, too; that is what they will expect of "government;" and at length that is what they will help to make of it. The monetary lesson this situation teaches is clear. Most illegal immigrants come from countries with no constitutional tradition of sound money, and certainly no recent experience with it. For such people, in comparison to the media of exchange they knew in their native lands Federal Reserve Notes are "hard currency!" And the "solution" they have almost always seen their leaders apply to economic and political problems at home has been rampant inflation of "currency" and "credit." Vanishingly small, then, will be the likelihood that here they will align themselves with Americans who press for a return to constitutional money and banking. Rather, they will demand more of that to which they have been accustomed. And, (v) The Establishment of the late 1800s would have totally disarmed the Plains Indians had the situation warranted it. For native Tribesmen with a tradition of waging war who had recently proven their mettle in numerous engagements could not be systematically dispossessed and oppressed if left with adequate means to fight back. And such a policy could easily have been rationalized on the ground that, as euphemistic "wards" of the United States�or, more realistically, as conquered, subjugated, and dependent peoples stripped of their sovereignty�the Indians had no right to arms. Pervasive "gun control" never proved necessary in that era, however, because so few warriors remained to claim their ancestral prerogatives by wager of battle. Contemporary Americans pose a far more difficult problem for the present-day Establishment. Far from being mere dependent "wards" of the United States, legally subject to politicians' whims, Americans�in the Constitution's first and most important words, "We the People"�are this country's earthly sovereigns, who have reserved to themselves "the right * * * to keep and bear Arms" on the ground that "[a] well regulated Militia[ is] necessary to the security of a free State" (Amendment II). Moreover, although most common Americans share no particular tradition as warriors of recent memory, tens of millions of them now possess and know how to use firearms well enough to be potentially dangerous to aspiring usurpers and tyrants. Therefore, inasmuch as the Establishment intends to eliminate America's national sovereignty, which resides in We the People�and inasmuch as arms have always been throughout Western history the primary indicia of, and means for retaining, sovereignty�the Establishment must at some stage in the not-too-distant future attempt to employ pervasive "gun control" to strip common Americans of the arms that symbolize, and in a crisis could be used to claim and confirm, their sovereignty. Doubtlessly, the Establishment plans to achieve this goal through the paramilitarized National police state it is setting up under the guise of "homeland security." The relation of this situation to money and banking is plain enough. The two great powers of government are the Power of the Sword and the Power of the Purse�in that order. In his Discourses on Livy, Macchiavelli exploded the shibboleth that "gold forms the sinews of war," with his commonsensical observation that "gold cannot always find good soldiers, but good soldiers can always find gold." This insight Mao Tse-tung confirmed in the dictum he drew from experience, that "[p]olitical power grows out of the barrel of a gun": For the Power of the Purse is a political power; and if (as with all other political power) it "grows out of the barrel of a gun," then the Power of the Sword must be its antecedent and superior. Moreover, the Second Amendment codifies this relationship as a principle of American constitutional law: For if "[a] well regulated Militia [is] necessary to the security of a free State," and the Power of the Purse is a power of such a State, then "[a] well regulated Militia[ is] necessary" for "the security," and ultimately the exercise, of the Power of the Purse�making the Power of the Purse dependent upon the Power of the Sword. So, should the Establishment ever succeed in disarming common Americans, their hopes for sound money and honest banking would be dashed on the rocks of despair. Based on economic theory, it is a near certainty that, absent extensive reforms, the present regime of fictitious "currency" and "credit" will collapse. Based on America's own political experience, a very strong possibility exists that, absent Militia "organiz[ed], arm[ed], and disciplin[ed]" and "call[ed] forth to execute the Laws" as the Constitution mandates (Article I, Section 8, Clauses 15 and 16), a financial dictatorship will take over in response to the ensuing chaos. (Indeed, on a small scale this is exactly what happened from 1932 to 1934, with the implosion of the Federal Reserve System and the installation of Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal, the central policy of which was to "go off the gold standard"�that is, to empower bankers and politicians to expand the supplies of unsound "currency" and "credit" more than ever before). And, based on the adage that "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely," the likelihood that such a dictatorship, on its own initiative, will ever relinquish power to We the People and return this country to constitutional standards asymptotically approaches zero for as long as the dictatorship persists.

Orwell Huxley | 06-18-2006 06:44 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by steel_g (Post 276830) what do you think of the Phoenix $ currency system? I am not going to put up a link to them for fear of being called a spammer. It seems similar to the Goldmoney website and not as clumsy as the Liberty Dollar system.
Gordon Hayes, the owner of Phoenix, made his starting capital from katzglobal.com. KatzGlobal's specialty has been the anonymous hosting of Ponzis which operate in DGCs (Digital Gold Currencies). The Ponzis hosted by Katz and Hayes have collectively stolen many millions of dollars. Hayes was also arrogant enough to actually claim trademark on the phrase "anonymous hosting"; if one does a Google for the phrase, Katz is the first site listed. Hayes has a history of exaggerating and lying about the size and scope of his business. He used to claim that he owned thousands of servers on several continents; the truth was that Katz was only a webhosting reseller. He also created a fictional person named "Scott Morgan" who claimed to be an attorney, back before he could readily afford to retain such. It has been proven that Scott Morgan is indeed Gordon Hayes. Personally, I don't like liars, especially those who might have access to my money. Gordon obsessively threatens to sue people, especially for libel. He'll eventually find this thread. (He's the type of guy who Googles himself periodically to see what people are saying about him. This may be excusable, as the guy does generate a lot of bad press.) I expect Gordon will demand that this post be removed, or he'll sue GIM. But Gordon needs to realize that truth is a defense to libel, and everything I've posted thus far is the truth. Do a Google search, and you'll find plenty of other sources echoing all I've said about Hayes. As for me, I won't let Gordon Hayes profit a single penny of my money. I consider him a criminal. Aside from its questionable owner, however, the Phoenix Dollar is likely legit. I don't believe Hayes would outright steal anyone's money. I see the scheme as Mafia-esque: take the dirty money and cycle it through a legit business; enjoy the clean money as the legit business generates profits. Disclaimer: this paragraph is my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.

Orwell Huxley | 06-18-2006 06:45 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers How about reducing the font in posts # 59 through 61, steel_g? We ain't blind. :D

steel_g | 06-18-2006 06:50 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers :thefinger:

Orwell Huxley | 06-18-2006 06:55 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by steel_g (Post 276841) :thefinger:
Dude, what's your problem?

steel_g | 06-18-2006 07:16 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers If you don't like my font preference, you can put me on ignore. Makes it easier to read on my browser. FWIW, I've heard people complain about fonts being too small in the past, but never too large. But like I said before, If you don't like it, read the original article at the hyperlink I provided or just put me on ignore. I promise, it won't hurt my feelings.

Orwell Huxley | 06-18-2006 07:38 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Vieira is a quality guy, and I'm always interested in what he has to say. I have nothing against you, either, steel_g. I'm just "old school" - it's rude to make long posts in huge fonts (or strangely-colored fonts, or all capital letters, etc.) If people have eyesight problems and can't read 12pt fonts, it's a simple matter for them to adjust their monitor settings. I'll admit it - I'm sometimes a Netiquette nanny.

mayhem | 06-18-2006 10:43 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by steel_g (Post 276845) If you don't like my font preference, you can put me on ignore. Makes it easier to read on my browser. FWIW, I've heard people complain about fonts being too small in the past, but never too large. But like I said before, If you don't like it, read the original article at the hyperlink I provided or just put me on ignore. I promise, it won't hurt my feelings.
Your wish is granted! ignore :top:

The Great Ag | 06-18-2006 10:50 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by RossL (Post 276798) A private corporation that creates value earns its profit. A scam doesn't earn profit, it cheats from people. One ounce of silver is an ounce of silver. Your proclimation that your silver coin is equal or higher to some number of FRNs is just as worthless as the promise of the Fed Reserve Bank. quote: I pass the savings to them. RossL: you cheat people.
RossL: If the Liberty Dollar cheats or steals from people, then the fed is even worse. Let me give you an example. Let's say for the sake of argument, you make $20 per hour at your job. You use your skills, abilities and God given talents (that is your property) and you exchange 1 hour of your skills for a $20 FRN. It cost the fed approximately .03 cents to create that note. You just gave up 1 hour of your time for a piece of paper that cost .03 cents to make, and the fed pocketed $19.97. The fed would gladly do this all day. It costs them .03 cents to make a $20 FRN and they sell it to you for $20. a $100 FRN costs them .03 cents and they sell it to you for $100, pocketing $99.97! Here is the kicker, that truly proves they fed is the largest scam foisted upon the people. You just exchanged 1 hour of your time for a .03 cent piece of paper, which is an evidence of debt. The gov't must pay interest on that note to the fed. How does the gov't get the money to the interest? From you and me, ofcourse. Get this RossL, the fed sold you a .03 cent piece of paper with a $20 face value, and our gov't taxed you to pay the interest on that piece of paper. When you factor in your time plus taxes paid, you actually gave the fed more than $20 in time and money for that .03 cent piece of paper with a $20 face value. Does that make sense, RossL? If I cheat people, then what does the fed do? At least the Liberty Dollar offers a discount, but even if it did not the exchange rate between the two currencies is never greater than 1:1. The Great Ag

The Great Ag | 06-18-2006 04:42 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by steel_g (Post 276830) Book and Ag... what do you think of the Phoenix $ currency system? I am not going to put up a link to them for fear of being called a spammer. It seems similar to the Goldmoney website and not as clumsy as the Liberty Dollar system.
I do not know any personal history of Gordon, but in terms of the Phoenix dollar, it is an alternative currency. The only problem I see with it, is that is more clumsy than the Liberty dollar. Let me explain. Unless the currency has a defined face value printed on it, it becomes barter. The vendor has to call the number on the silver round to get the daily price quote. What if the vendor or you disagree with the quote? What if the vendor already has a safe full of Phoenix rounds? What happens if you bought the Phoenix dollars in May for $15.21 an ounce. You would not spend them, unless you had to, today with the price being $10.13 an ounce. It is not beneficial for you as the consumer to spend them for less than what you paid, but you have no control over the price. What if silver stays below $15 (God forbid) for over a year? Your money cannot be spent. The Liberty dollar does not have this built in weakness. It is stable, and simple to use. The Phoenix, while not having any seigniorage is not stable and simple to use. The Great Ag

Wyldwil | 06-20-2006 09:41 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Great AG, I've been catching up after a few days of working... for FRN's(which tomorrow I'll convert to more PM's) As book pointed out, you have been very patient and informative. I believe that is because this is an idea Americans could/should get behind. Although I can't shake the feeling that it is too little too late. (There are literally 9,000,000,000 reasons for me to feel this way) After reading this thread, another question comes to mind. You said that we the people own the $, not the gov't? Why do they print it? Why do you say this? Because we are the workforce? Is there something in the Constitution about this? Please clarify...

Fiat Mutiny | 06-20-2006 09:59 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyldwil (Post 279209) After reading this thread, another question comes to mind. You said that we the people own the $, not the gov't? Why do they print it? Why do you say this? Because we are the workforce? Is there something in the Constitution about this? Please clarify...
I'm not the Great Ag, but I'm guessing we own the money, because it is generated by taxing us. They tax our paychecks, etc. to fund projects that are suppose to protect and serve us. Our congressmen and women are suppose to vote to appropriate the funds they have collected to projects that the people need and want. They stopped doing this a long time ago, probably on day two. So, its more like, it was our money, until it was stolen by the Federal Reserve to pay interest on the money they borrow to police us and the rest of the world, etc.

californiajeff | 06-21-2006 02:10 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Ag (Post 276297) Because is has a face value of $1. Why would a store owner give you more than face value? Because you tell him it is worth more? How much more, and how does he verify? It is too complicated already to everyday transaction. The Great Ag
If that's the case we should make up a batch of silver rounds with a $500 price on them. :yippee:

The Great Ag | 06-21-2006 08:58 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyldwil (Post 279209) Great AG, I've been catching up after a few days of working... for FRN's(which tomorrow I'll convert to more PM's) As book pointed out, you have been very patient and informative. I believe that is because this is an idea Americans could/should get behind. Although I can't shake the feeling that it is too little too late. (There are literally 9,000,000,000 reasons for me to feel this way) It feels like that, doesn't it. Like Elton John reading a Hustler, it doesn't make any sense. Remember David Vs. Goliath! The idea is not to fix our monetary system overnight. It will take time. Heck, it took 93 years to get this far in debt; it may take longer to get out of it. Patience is the key. The goal is to restore America back to value $1 at a time. It can happen if We the People set ourselves to that task. After reading this thread, another question comes to mind. You said that we the people own the $, not the gov't? Why do they print it? Why do you say this? Because we are the workforce? Is there something in the Constitution about this? Please clarify... Section 8 Article 5 states "5. To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures. The gov't prints and mints money out of convenience to its citizens. However, if you look at the 1800's there were several private mints issuing gold and silver pieces. Most of these were in areas where gov't money was hard to comeby (Colorado and California come to mind). However, there is no provision in the Constitution prohibiting a private citizen from minting currency. While we are the workforce, and exchange our labor for FRNs, it is the fed who controls how much we make, how much we pay for our mortgage, whether we can have a vacation, or at least the price of it. As long as the fed controls the money supply it does not matter who or where you work, you are on the losing side of the stick.
Currently, We the People, do not own our currency. The fed does! They can manipulate the money supply to their content. We have no say in how many dollars are in circulation, we cannot make it - only borrow it and hopefully make a better return than the interest we owe. Remember if we had no debt we would have no money supply. When America was on the gold standard, We The People controlled the money. Sure the Treasury printed and minted money, but it was not controlled by a few people, as it is today. Americans could take gold to any mint and the mint would coin the gold into money. In other words you could create your own money, interest free with no gov't influence. The gold standard kept our gov't in check, and since we could conrtrol or at least influence the money supply we could control gov't. We let that go without a fight, and here we are today trying to regain what we lost by inaction. I do have PMs in my little hoard, but I am exchanging FRNs to Liberty Dollars and spending them. They are beautiful silver pieces. Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiat Mutiny (Post 279223) I'm not the Great Ag, but I'm guessing we own the money, because it is generated by taxing us. They tax our paychecks, etc. to fund projects that are suppose to protect and serve us. Our congressmen and women are suppose to vote to appropriate the funds they have collected to projects that the people need and want. They stopped doing this a long time ago, probably on day two. So, its more like, it was our money, until it was stolen by the Federal Reserve to pay interest on the money they borrow to police us and the rest of the world, etc.
We let the bankers take it without a fight. We were duped, that's for sure, but we did not contest it. Our loss and the feds gain. If you steal something, but the person does not say anything, is it really theft? The Liberty Dollar offers a safe place to exchange your FRNs, and get yourself of Uncle Sam's pay roll. Using the Liberty Dollar is a peaceful protest, for sure, but it is a lot of fun to spend these. I am using real money, and it feels good to have honest money in my pocket. Quote:
Originally Posted by californiajeff (Post 279390) If that's the case we should make up a batch of silver rounds with a $500 price on them. :yippee:
Go for it! The only requirement is that the public accept it, just like any free market currency. Heck, you could even use Disney dollars if you wanted. As long as they could be redeemed for rides at Disney. It comes down to public acceptance. Think about FedEx when it started. A lot of negativity and how could it compete with the Postal Service. Well, it did and because of the competition the Postal Service had to improve its service or lose market share to a private corporation. If you think the public will accept a $500 face value 1oz silver piece, then do it. Even at $500 face value, it would be better than our FRNs. Atleast there is value in a$500 1oz silver piece and no debt attached to it. The Great Ag

The Great Ag | 06-21-2006 04:13 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Book (Post 275791) The notion that "Liberty Dollars" are "worth" more than any other generic silver round is absurd. The notion that "Liberty Dollars" are a way of sticking it to The Man or The Government or The Banksters can be said about any generic silver round. Wrap the Flag around a generic silver round and you still have just a generic silver round. Comments addressing this topic of Liberty Dollars is most welcome. :D
The idea of a Liberty dollar being having more value than spot price is equally absurd as saying a $20 FRN is worth more than .03 cents. We will accept a $20 FRN for face value, but its intrinsic worth, if it has any is .03 cents, the cost of production. Maybe it would be worth more as wallpaper. :cheerful: The Great Ag

The Great Ag | 06-21-2006 04:25 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers For all who are interested in who accepts Liberty Dollars, I just paid for my doctor's visit copay with a $10 silver Liberty, and yesterday I paid my HVAC repairman in silver, too. Since silver has been out of the monetary system since 1965, people are often amazed when they see and hold one of these silver pieces. A lot of people know real money when they see it. Most people do not think about money; all they really know is that $20 FRN does not buy what it did 5 years ago. When I give them to a cashier who is old enough to remember silver money, they smile at me, and ask if I want to spend this. Ofcourse I do. Most cashiers immediately take the equal amount of FRNs from their wallet and buy it from the till. Here is a quote from Elgin Groseclose and his book Money and Man. The reference is to free coinage which out mint had until 1933. The principle of free coinage has proved its practical worth as a deterrent ot debasment and depreciation. Where coinage is on private account there is not profit to the state in tampering with the standard, and there is no opportunity for such practice by the individual. The circulation of coins of similar appearance and denomination but of uncertain standard by autocratic government, the temptations to profit which were constantly dangled before despotic rulers - these were evils which had perplexed and harassed society and hindered the natural growth of economy since the days when coined money first appeaerd. By a stroke they were swept away. At the same time, the institution of free conage, by giving stability and character to one of the chief instruments of organized economy, made possible a more vigourous and healthy commercial life and gave prestige and increased substance to the government adopting it. When a gold or silver standard is adheared to, government is smaller, easier to control, more money stays in the peoples' pockets, taxes are less, the economy more profitable. The only losers in a hard currency standard are gov't and bankers who cannot make obscene profits on money created from nothing. If there is interest, I wil start a thread on the education column about what money is, how it functions and how the people respond to different types of money. The Great Ag

Book | 06-21-2006 04:37 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers The "Liberty Dollar" is nothing more than a common one-ounce generic silver round that has "Twenty Dollars" stamped on it. That somehow makes it "worth" twenty FRNs when less than twelve FRNs can buy any other one-ounce generic silver round? Pull the other one The Great Ag. Stamping "Two Hundred Dollars" on a common one-ounce silver round don't make it then worth ten times as much. One ounce of silver is worth exactly $10.43 on Kitco today. :haha: <<< no disrespect intended

The Great Ag | 06-21-2006 04:48 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Book (Post 280071) The "Liberty Dollar" is nothing more than a common one-ounce generic silver round that has "Twenty Dollars" stamped on it. That somehow makes it "worth" twenty FRNs when less than twelve FRNs can buy any other one-ounce generic silver round? Pull the other one The Great Ag. Stamping "Two Hundred Dollars" on a common one-ounce silver round don't make it then worth ten times as much. One ounce of silver is worth exactly $10.43 on Kitco today. :haha: <<< no disrespect intended
Read my response to California Jeff. Go ahead, Book and take your 1 oz round, go to a mint and have them stamp $200 on it. If it spends, then good for you. Even at $200 for 1oz of silver has more value than the FRN. In a free market, currencies would compete with each other, and would succeed or fail based upon their individual merits. You still get hung up on spending $20 or slightly less on 1oz of silver with a $20 stamp on it, but do not complain about exchanging an equivalent amount of your time for a $20 FRN piece of paper that costs .03 cents to make, and consistently loses its purchasing power. That I do not understand. If the gov't accepted other forms of money for taxes than the dollar, then Americans would see how little value there is in the FRN. The only reason we use them, aside from legal tender laws, is FRNs are the only accepted form of payment for taxes. The Great Ag

Book | 06-21-2006 05:09 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
That I do not understand. -The Great Ag
Let's keep our eye on the ball here. We are talking about a one-ounce generic silver round which today is only worth $10.44 We are not talking about the Treasury's cost of paper. We are not comparing silver to paper. Keeping it simple: It is illogical that the "Liberty Dollar" one-ounce generic silver round is worth more than any other because it has "Twenty Dollars" stamped on it. Stamping "Twenty Dollars" or even "Two Hundred Dollars" on a one-ounce generic silver round adds absolutely no value to what is today worth only $10.44 The title of this thread remains: Simple Reality Test for GIMers :yippee:

The Great Ag | 06-21-2006 09:10 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Book (Post 280110) Let's keep our eye on the ball here. We are talking about a one-ounce generic silver round which today is only worth $10.44 We are not talking about the Treasury's cost of paper. We are not comparing silver to paper. Keeping it simple: It is illogical that the "Liberty Dollar" one-ounce generic silver round is worth more than any other because it has "Twenty Dollars" stamped on it. Stamping "Twenty Dollars" or even "Two Hundred Dollars" on a one-ounce generic silver round adds absolutely no value to what is today worth only $10.44 The title of this thread remains: Simple Reality Test for GIMers :yippee: I can read, double yippee! :yippee: :yippee: Not mocking, just having fun, Book
Hey, Book. I disagree, we are comparing currencies, because that is what the Liberty Dollar is. So the only way to analyze the Liberty Dollar is to compare it to other currencies and see how it stacks ups. If we are to ignore the fact that we are talking about a currency, then yes, you are absolutely right, and so are the other GIMers. From a investment perspective, Liberty Dollars are not the way to go. From a currency perspective, the FRN is a shackle and the Liberty Dollar and any other currency that is not debt based will set you free. However, it is also fair to say the FRN is only .03 cents and yet you exchange your labor for it, and do not complain. Who would pay $20 for a .03 cent piece of paper? This would be a question our Founding Fathers would have asked? It may seem silly now, but it was very relevant in 1785. Can you dig it, Book. :rock: If that were the case, this thread would have ended after 5 posts. Until it dies, I will be here educating the all who will read about an alternative currency to the FRN. While we save our PMs in our secret vaults, occaisonally taking them out to roll around in, we think we are free. Until we get off Uncle Sam's pay roll we are still indentured. Dang, I sound like a freaking radical, instead of the pragmatic man that I am. The Great Ag

Fiat Mutiny | 06-21-2006 09:17 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers O.k. the Great AG. The question for me, boils down to this: What places of business accept the $20 silver one oz. coin as $20 FRN? I am asking, where can I go and gather up $20 worth of goods and when it's time to pay, slap down a $20 Liberty dollar and leave? I'm quite sure my local bullion dealer would laugh at me, but thats not a fair example. Where do you spend your Liberty dollars?

Fiat Mutiny | 06-21-2006 09:21 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Ag (Post 280332) However, it is also fair to say the FRN is only .03 cents and yet you exchange your labor for it, and do not complain. Who would pay $20 for a .03 cent piece of paper? This would be a question our Founding Fathers would have asked? It may seem silly now, but it was very relevant in 1785. Can you dig it, Book. :rock: The Great Ag
But the neat trick is, you can immediately turn that $20 into silver bullion worth almost $20, minus the premium. What you are asking is for us to turn our $20 FRN into $10.50 worth of silver bullion.

Wyldwil | 06-21-2006 09:47 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers I think Book is stuck in the same rut I was (feeling like I'm slowly understanding)... Would Book be more comfortable if 10$ were stamped on a 1 oz. LD? I think the point is that if this grand plan (of "real" value currency) is ever to catch on, we hase to have some starting point. 20$ is a good enough place as any to start. And, from what I've read on this site, I'd say 95% of us feel silver is greatly undervalued. So again, what's wrong with "20$"? Really it is all moot anyway. The point is , is that we currently as a nation spend $ backed by.....nada. AG's comment about paper money being ill recieved by the masses in the late 1700's is really the exact opposite mirror-image of LD'ers and GIM'ers who want our money to mean something! As far as spending them, I looked at the LD site of Florida LD-"friendly" businesses...pretty slim pickins, never heard of any of them. But, I guess this has to start somewhere. Or ,does it? Most here also seem to believe that if/when SHTF or TEOTWAWKI happens....there will only be PM's and bartering anyway. What's the difference really. BTW, does Fort Knox even exist anymore, and what's actually in it. Not enough gold to make the new 24K buffalo coins. The Gov't outsourced that gold even.

Fiat Mutiny | 06-21-2006 09:54 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyldwil (Post 280364) BTW, does Fort Knox even exist anymore, and what's actually in it. Not enough gold to make the new 24K buffalo coins. The Gov't outsourced that gold even.
Yes Fort Knox exists. Whether or not there is an oz. of gold in Fort Knox is unknown. I have read that it has all been sold out from under the citizens of this nation. They keep Fort Knox around as a decoy for other countries that want to nuke us. They will probably go for Fort Knox to vaporize our gold and not hit any other targets of great importance nearby, is our governments hope I'm guessing. The smart thing to do would to save Fort Knox's supposed gold for themselves if they were to take over. The funny thing is, the government has consistently refused any accountability of Fort Knox's gold since the early 1950's.

Book | 06-21-2006 10:04 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Hey, Book. I disagree, we are comparing currencies, because that is what the Liberty Dollar is. So the only way to analyze the Liberty Dollar is to compare it to other currencies and see how it stacks ups. -The Great Ag.
Ag...we do disagree that the Liberty Dollar is currency. Let's keep it simple here. Stamping "Twenty Dollars" on a one-ounce generic silver round does not magically make it currency. It is still just a one-ounce generic silver round...worth today $10.48 If you can convince people that YOUR one-ounce generic silver round is currency then maybe you can get those people to pay you twenty dollars for YOUR $10.48 one-ounce generic silver round. :beer:

The Great Ag | 06-21-2006 10:50 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiat Mutiny (Post 280333) O.k. the Great AG. The question for me, boils down to this: What places of business accept the $20 silver one oz. coin as $20 FRN? I am asking, where can I go and gather up $20 worth of goods and when it's time to pay, slap down a $20 Liberty dollar and leave? I'm quite sure my local bullion dealer would laugh at me, but thats not a fair example. Where do you spend your Liberty dollars? Fiat, I will say that I have had mine for only about 1 month, but the results have been great. So far, I have purchased gas from Exxon, food from Food Lion, paid for my doctor's copay, flowers from a local flower shop, bought coins from my dealer, food from a mom and pop store and paid for an HVAC service on my air conditioning. I have had stores not accept them too. That's okay, I have only been doing this for 1 month. They will accept them too within a year. I am creating my own flyers too add to those created by NORFED and I will talk with store owners/managers and get a large roster of stores who will agree to accept them. There already are 20 stores in my area who accept alternative currency. I have not spent my LD there yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiat Mutiny (Post 280341) But the neat trick is, you can immediately turn that $20 into silver bullion worth almost $20, minus the premium. What you are asking is for us to turn our $20 FRN into $10.50 worth of silver bullion. Not exactly. I am asking you to turn FRNs into Liberty Dollars. If you want to buy silver then do so as cheaply as possible. If you are interested in alternative currencies this is the best out there. Phoenix dollars are no better than barter, but you buy them for spot + small premium. phoenix dollars Also, I am planning on opening a LD bank within a two to three years. Then you will be able to draft checks on your Liberty Dollars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyldwil (Post 280364) I think Book is stuck in the same rut I was (feeling like I'm slowly understanding)... Would Book be more comfortable if 10$ were stamped on a 1 oz. LD? Book can answer that. The problem is that silver is already over that face value amount. You have to a face value above spot, and far enough so that it remains stable for a period of time. Also, twenty was chosen as that is the next highest FRN denomination I think the point is that if this grand plan (of "real" value currency) is ever to catch on, we hase to have some starting point. 20$ is a good enough place as any to start. And, from what I've read on this site, I'd say 95% of us feel silver is greatly undervalued. So again, what's wrong with "20$"? When silver is over $20 per ounce, the next base is $50, i.e. 1 ounce of silver will buy $50 worth of goods and services. Okay you GIMers, go on and attack me about 1 oz being worth $50. :boxing: :rofl: Really it is all moot anyway. The point is , is that we currently as a nation spend $ backed by.....nada. You are getting there, Wyldwil. AG's comment about paper money being ill recieved by the masses in the late 1700's is really the exact opposite mirror-image of LD'ers and GIM'ers who want our money to mean something! Everybody wants there money to mean something, so we pretend that FRNs do, and will hang on to that idea like grim death. As far as spending them, I looked at the LD site of Florida LD-"friendly" businesses...pretty slim pickins, never heard of any of them. But, I guess this has to start somewhere. Or ,does it? You do start somewhere. Mostly, small places will use them before large corporations will, not always the case, I bought gas at Exxon, my first purchase, and groceries at Food Lion. LDs stay in the local economy.Most here also seem to believe that if/when SHTF or TEOTWAWKI happens....there will only be PM's and bartering anyway. What's the difference really. I do not think the SHTF. That's my perspective. BTW, does Fort Knox even exist anymore, and what's actually in it. Not enough gold to make the new 24K buffalo coins. The Gov't outsourced that gold even.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Book (Post 280387) Ag...we do disagree that the Liberty Dollar is currency. Let's keep it simple here. Stamping "Twenty Dollars" on a one-ounce generic silver round does not magically make it currency. It is still just a one-ounce generic silver round...worth today $10.48 If you can convince people that YOUR one-ounce generic silver round is currency then maybe you can get those people to pay you twenty dollars for YOUR $10.48 And the FRN is just a .03 cent piece of paper with $20 stamped on it. You must have a currency to operate a society well. The question is do you want the best currency or something inferior.
The Great Ag

Fiat Mutiny | 06-21-2006 11:29 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers A few more questions for the Great AG: Again, I like the concept of LD's, I'm just trying to understand the dynamics of the system. Say I am a business owner and I decide to accept LD's. A customer comes in and gives me $100 worth of LD's. What am I going to do with them? Will I have to spend them at a company that accepts them, much like I did as the business owner? Or can I send them to the Liberty Dollar headquarters for FRN's that I can use to pay my taxes or to other companies that won't accept LD's? I'm assuming, this has got to be a currency of consensual parties. But what would happen, if say, a business owner was soon swamped with LD's. Say, he got paid $10,000 worth of LD's. What is he going to do with them? I'm assuming he can't put them in his bank, other than a safety deposit box. Then the next month he gets another $10,000 worth of LD's. Soon, hes up to his eyebrows in LD's, but his suppliers don't accept them. What if he can't find a consensual party that accepts them to the degree that he has accepted them. Question 2: If I bought LD's from you, would it cost me $20 FRN (or a little less you say) for one $20 LD? I need to look that the Liberty Dollar site again. Last time I looked, I didn't absorb much information.

DC7 | 06-22-2006 07:02 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers "in terms of the Phoenix dollar, it is an alternative currency. The only problem I see with it, is that is more clumsy than the Liberty dollar. Let me explain. Unless the currency has a defined face value printed on it, it becomes barter" Click on the pics at the bottom of the page: https://www.phoenixdollar.net/treasureshop/ The phoenix $ has a face value of $10. Wouldn't want to spend it for face value, but you don't have to pay a high premium for it either.

Atahualpa | 06-22-2006 07:52 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by DC7 (Post 281138) "in terms of the Phoenix dollar, it is an alternative currency. The only problem I see with it, is that is more clumsy than the Liberty dollar. Let me explain. Unless the currency has a defined face value printed on it, it becomes barter" Click on the pics at the bottom of the page: https://www.phoenixdollar.net/treasureshop/ The phoenix $ has a face value of $10. Wouldn't want to spend it for face value, but you don't have to pay a high premium for it either.
from the website; "Phoenix Silver is a digital currency, 100% backed by .999 fine silver. The stored silver is held in allocated vaults by Northwest Territorial Mint, in the form of 1000 troy ounce Phoenix Silver Bullion Bars." I'm sure the stored silver is safe and sound.:wink:

Wyldwil | 06-22-2006 10:34 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers AG, let's say in the future we, as a nation, do make the switch to LD's. What happens to the bullion market? What happens to all that silver that has not been converted to LD's?

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The Great Ag | 06-23-2006 12:07 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiat Mutiny (Post 280456) A few more questions for the Great AG: Again, I like the concept of LD's, I'm just trying to understand the dynamics of the system. Say I am a business owner and I decide to accept LD's. A customer comes in and gives me $100 worth of LD's. What am I going to do with them? The first thing is to spend them, or save them to spend. It is a currency and it is meant to be spent. I have given them out as tips at restaurants. So yes, spend them. As far as I know, NORFED will exchange them for FRNs. I am thinking about becoming a RCO (Regional Currency Office) and one of the contractual terms is the RCO must convert LD into FRNs. Will I have to spend them at a company that accepts them, much like I did as the business owner? I am working to get a list of businesses together that will accept them, but when I go to a store I just offer them instead of FRNs. If they don't take them, and some don't, I give the FRNs or check, or credit card. Since I want to spend them, I will go the the shops I frequent most and get them onboard. Yes, it will require some work on my part, but if you just want to spend a few here or there, go for it. My goal is to get my family off FRNs permanently, and this is the best way to do it. Or can I send them to the Liberty Dollar headquarters for FRN's that I can use to pay my taxes or to other companies that won't accept LD's? I'm assuming, this has got to be a currency of consensual parties. But what would happen, if say, a business owner was soon swamped with LD's. Say, he got paid $10,000 worth of LD's. What is he going to do with them? I'm assuming he can't put them in his bank, other than a safety deposit box. Then the next month he gets another $10,000 worth of LD's. Soon, hes up to his eyebrows in LD's, but his suppliers don't accept them. What if he can't find a consensual party that accepts them to the degree that he has accepted them. Good question. I do not think a company would end up with $10k in LD without a recourse. By the time a company took 10K there would be man companies taking them. The sheer amount of volume needed for 10K would insure that. The LIberty grows as fast as the community takes them. Question 2: If I bought LD's from you, would it cost me $20 FRN (or a little less you say) for one $20 LD? I need to look that the Liberty Dollar site again. Last time I looked, I didn't absorb much information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC7 (Post 281138) "in terms of the Phoenix dollar, it is an alternative currency. The only problem I see with it, is that is more clumsy than the Liberty dollar. I would need to know your zip for shipping costs, but I am thinking $38 for 1 $20 silver Liberty and 2 $10 Silver Liberties. So that's $40 of silver Liberties for $38 and that includes shipping. Let me know your zip code. If you are in the US then $38 will cover it. The website has a deal for $107 you get $100 of Liberties in various denominations ($40 in silver certificates, $40 in silver and $20 in digital LD) with a bunch of information. The deal is that if after 1 year you are not satisfied you can send them back, and get your FRNs back. Not a bad deal. I will do something similar. If after 2 months you are not satisfied, send the $40 back to me in silver and I will refund your $38 in FRNs. Let me know what you think. We can work out the details later. Let me explain. Unless the currency has a defined face value printed on it, it becomes barter" Click on the pics at the bottom of the page: https://www.phoenixdollar.net/treasureshop/ The phoenix $ has a face value of $10. Wouldn't want to spend it for face value, but you don't have to pay a high premium for it either.
The pics I saw did not show $10 denomination. Can you provide the link. The Great Ag

DC7 | 06-23-2006 02:32 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers "I'm sure the stored silver is safe and sound." I don't have any personal experience with the phoenix dollars, but from the site it looks like there are a few different options. Generic phoenix bars, "phoenix dollar" rounds, and digital accounts. "One Ounce Phoenix Silver Disks Shipped to you" I would be interested in a couple rounds since being marked $10 face value makes them kinda unusual for rounds, but I'm not sure if I feel comfortable with this company.

DC7 | 06-23-2006 02:38 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:" would need to know your zip for shipping costs, but I am thinking $38 for 1 $20 silver Liberty and 2 $10 Silver Liberties. So that's $40 of silver Liberties for $38 and that includes shipping. Let me know your zip code. If you are in the US then $38 will cover it. " Would that be 1 oz. + 2 half ounces? Quote:"Sign up to be a Liberty Associate, and I will split the $100 referral 50/50 with you." What is required to sign up as a liberty accociate? Quote: "The pics I saw did not show $10 denomination. Can you provide the link." Ooops. Guess i messed up the link. I'll try again. Click on the small pics on the bottom of the page to get a close up: https://www.phoenixdollar.net/treasureshop.php

The Great Ag | 06-23-2006 06:23 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers [quote=Wyldwil;281291]AG, let's say in the future we, as a nation, do make the switch to LD's. What happens to the bullion market? What happens to all that silver that has not been converted to LD's? You ask good questions Wyldwil. The short answer is nothing happens. If America did go on a silver or gold standard the bullion market would still sell bullion around the world. The LD would be worth slightly more than the spot price of silver and gold, as the currency is silver and gold. What would change is other currencies to the LD. Whatever that country's sport price for gold and silver would be about the exchange rate for that currency and the LD. For example let's hypothetically say the US went onto the gold and silver standard. Silver is $10.30 FRNS an ounce (6/24/06). The gov't would have to debate what 1 ounce of silver is worth for face value. Let's just say they arbitrarily chose $1, just like our old silver coins. Here is the tricky part, Wyldwil, you have to forget pricing in FRNs and think in LD. So 1oz bullion silver is may cost .50 cents. The raw materials have to cost less than the face value or People will not spend it. Basically we are turning everything upside down. We have just made our national money system equivalent to gold and silver. For other currencies say the British Pound, here is how it works. Currently $1 FRN = .54 Pounds, and 1 oz of silver = 5.66 pounds. Lets do some math to convert Pounds in LD. Remember we have just converted America to the silver standard where 1 oz silver equals 1 Liberty Dollar. Take 1/5.66 and you get an approximate exchange rate of .18 pounds equals 1 LD. Does that make sense?[/quote] Quote:
Originally Posted by DC7 (Post 281453) Quote:" would need to know your zip for shipping costs, but I am thinking $38 for 1 $20 silver Liberty and 2 $10 Silver Liberties. So that's $40 of silver Liberties for $38 and that includes shipping. Let me know your zip code. If you are in the US then $38 will cover it. " Would that be 1 oz. + 2 half ounces? Yes, that would be correct DC7. Quote:"Sign up to be a Liberty Associate, and I will split the $100 referral 50/50 with you." What is required to sign up as a liberty accociate? I can either fax you a Liberty Associate application or you can go online here http://www.libertydollar.org/html/rc/RC_PickSponsor.asp Or you can go here and print out an application http://www.libertydollar.org/pdf/associate0304.pdf Remember to list my name, Court Jones, as a referral. Otherwise I will not get the $100 FRN referral, and will not be able to split it with you 50/50. Quote: "The pics I saw did not show $10 denomination. Can you provide the link." Ooops. Guess i messed up the link. I'll try again. Click on the small pics on the bottom of the page to get a close up: My guess is that it is old picture from last year, 2005, when silver was less than $10 an ounce. According to the site, they stamp an 800 number on the round or bar for the business to call and verify the value. Again, since the value is not stamped on the round, the business would be free to discount, and give $9 FRN for it, for example. As he has to make a profit on it too, when he uses it or sells it for bullion. I don't see the Phoenix dollar as all that stable. Here is the major flaw inherent with the Phoenix dollar. Spot price is $10.30 currently (6/24/06). You go and buy a few PDs. The company will sell them to you plus a premium; they have to make money too. Let's say they do as little as .50 cents per ounce. When you go to the store to buy goods and services must be exchanged for more than the FRNs you paid. Otherwise you are losing money. Will the vendor call Phoenix and believe what they say about the value? It is not imprinted on the round or bar. What happens if silver drops significantly from what you paid, i.e. you paid $15 fRNs per ounce and now you can't exchange them for an amount higher. Also it looks like you have to be a merchant member to accept them. I could be wrong about that. I would certainly buy them for bullion value, because I think it is an unstable currency and not worth the face value, like a lot of GIMers feel about the Liberty Dollar. https://www.phoenixdollar.net/treasureshop.php
The Great Ag

AlwaysWrite | 06-13-2007 09:06 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Ag (Post 282156) I have had stores not accept them too. That's okay, I have only been doing this for 1 month. They will accept them too within a year.
OK, so I was bored today reading through the archives and came across this thread. Since it's almost exactly a year since this was being discussed, I have to ask you Ag, have you found more stores accepting them by now? Are you still a Liberty Dollar Associate? I do think it's an interesting idea, but until it's more widely accepted, I feel like at the end someone may get left holding the bag, i.e. something they paid $20 for and can now only be exchanged for spot price ($13.08 right now). It's like musical chairs with bullion - it's worth $20 so long as you can find someone to give you $20 for it. Yes, the dollar is inherently worthless, but I can find millions of places that accept them, including the gov't, who always promises to accept them for payment of my taxes. So I'll never be left "holding the bag" and only getting 3 cents for my $20 bill. So I'm not paying $20 for something worth 3 cents, I'm paying $20 for something that will get me $20 worth of stuff from anyplace I want to get stuff from (or will pay $20 worth of my taxes). I don't have that same security with the LD ... I'd like to see it become more widespread, but I don't want to be the guinea pig! PS: This also seems to relate to the well thought-out silver Libertad as currency idea posted here: http://www.plata.com.mx/plata/plata/comHSP45a.htm

eyeofliberty | 06-14-2007 12:22 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysWrite (Post 636924) OK, so I was bored today reading through the archives and came across this thread. Since it's almost exactly a year since this was being discussed, I have to ask you Ag, have you found more stores accepting them by now? Are you still a Liberty Dollar Associate?
I've been a Liberty Associate for a couple of years now. I don't buy and spend a ton of them or anything, but every now and again I use them to buy stuff. More people accept them than turn them down. Most people that turn them down do so because their bank won't take them. Most people are really excited about them; they're heavy and shiny! People get it when you tell them it's 1 oz. of silver, they understand the value of that. My favorite place to spend them is our Saturday outdoor market here in town; the vendors love to accept them, and usually keep them. I consider my Liberty dollars to be spending money, and my bullion to be hoard/hedge/investment.

BeeYourself | 06-14-2007 01:53 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Anyone have a court case update for Liberty Dollars? how are they doing? I keep hearing reports of arrests and such. The old posts about the $10 face value of Phoenix Dollars are not correct. If you look closer the silver is a weight based currency in troy ounces. The main difference between liberty dollars and phoenix dollars is that liberty dollars have the dollar denomination and phoenix dollars have a weight denomination and sell for spot + .50-.75/ounce. I own both liberty dollars and phoenix dollars, but I just save them and don't spend them. I think it makes little sense to spend silver while FRNs are decreasing in value.

The Great Ag | 06-14-2007 08:05 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Yes, I am still a Liberty Associate, and proud of it. I have supported their case against the gov't. In terms of my own personal experiences, since the mint came out with their article regarding the silver liberty, it is more difficult. Also, some business owners are having perceptual problems. When bullion silver goes over $16/oz for more than 60 consecutive days, the new base value will be $50. Some owners are concerned that someone could spend $20FRNs for a silver liberty but has the value of $50. They are hesitant. However, there are several stores (individually owned) that will accept the libs or silver in exchange. Paid for my family's lunch with a Mex Lib today! So yeah, I am still doing okay with silver libs. My personal goal has been placed on hold pending the outcome of the lawsuit. I was hoping to open the first national silver liberty union (bank). Due to the financial cost to me, this has been on hold for awile. My initial goal was to have it running by 2008/09. I need to wait before I invest in this concept. Imagine writing checks that are backed by gold and silver! :applause_ Bee yourself: The only court cases I am aware of are those of a Lib associate using the silver liberty properly. These cases always win. There are probably a case or two where the silver lib was improperly given as "currency" or "coin." This would be fraud and is a crime. The Great At

AlwaysWrite | 06-14-2007 10:18 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers You will get no argument from me that the Mexican Libertads are gorgeous and valuable coins! I wouldn't trade them for mere food! One thing that bothers me about the Liberty Dollar: the base jumps from $10 to $20 to $50 because "those are standard denominations of U.S. currency." But why do this, if the intent isn't to fool someone into thinking it's a legal tender coin??

Dymaxion42 | 06-15-2007 10:53 AM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by merc49 (Post 275284) Yes the mark up sucks, Yes it is cheaper to buy at your dealer, Yes it is probably a network marketing company, But I think alot of you are missing the point. I do not own any Liberty dollars, But I have decided to buy some just to support the Idea ( however silly it might sound to some) of the peoples money. I really think all Who dissagree with the Federal Reserve should buy 5 or 10 liberty dollars just to hold and participate in the program. I wish they were cheaper too. I also wish we were not slaves to the money changers. Think about it most people could put 5 to 10 liberty dollars in your stash without busting the budget in a couple months time and could at least raise more awareness to things. You never know we might even get enough attention to get a private investor to launch a similar program as a revolution without all the added poop that comes with the big mark up. 2 cents.
Yeah, I'm pretty suspicious of this as well, but agree that it might be worth supporting nonetheless. My thought is that if it did gain enough traction, other similar enterprises would spring up, and the competition would force down the markup. Of course, if it gained that much traction, then perhaps I would be able to use generic bullion in the same manner. I'm not about to put any of my resources into this, and it is a shame that it looks so much like a pyramid scheme, but maybe it is better than nothing. What if instead you could get enough people in a local region or town to simply accept silver in trade? Or does that miss the point? Dymaxion

The Great Ag | 06-15-2007 02:08 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysWrite (Post 637871) You will get no argument from me that the Mexican Libertads are gorgeous and valuable coins! I wouldn't trade them for mere food! One thing that bothers me about the Liberty Dollar: the base jumps from $10 to $20 to $50 because "those are standard denominations of U.S. currency." But why do this, if the intent isn't to fool someone into thinking it's a legal tender coin??
Silver is a great way to exchange goods and services! It was a Baja Mexico restaurant. Like I said, small business are more open to alternative forms of money, than corporations. 1 oz Libs got me $20 worth of food! Who made out better in the short term, him or me? It cost me $13 for the Lib! I informed him the upside to silver, and he loved the coin. With reference to $50 base, yeah, I agree it's high. The reasoning for it was the $10, $20 and $50 bases are easily recognized by Americans everywhere. The idea was not to commit fraud, but to use a denomination familiar to Americans. I think it would have been easier to bump to a $30 base, even though it's a strange denomination. The Great Ag

AlwaysWrite | 06-15-2007 02:10 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by Dymaxion42 (Post 638175) What if instead you could get enough people in a local region or town to simply accept silver in trade? Or does that miss the point? Dymaxion
It would work if you could get enough people to accept it, although it would admittedly be more difficult to conduct transactions based on a fluctuating spot price rather than a nice round number stamped on the coin that stays constant. The best idea I've seen is the idea for Mexican Libertads to be used in circulation that I linked to above. The price is based on a once-daily closing price, and is fixed by the bank to never go down, only up. And I think what bothers us about the Liberty Dollar idea is that a private individual is making money off us on the seignorage, which is significant (not like 10% or whatever, more like 100% or even more sometimes). Not that I'm a HUGE fan of gov't, but if they went back to using gold and silver coins, I would allow them their seignorage so they wouldn't have to tax us QUITE so much, and maybe SOME of the money would go to good purposes (infrastructure, etc.).

AlwaysWrite | 06-15-2007 02:18 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Ag (Post 638353) Silver is a great way to exchange goods and services! It was a Baja Mexico restaurant. Like I said, small business are more open to alternative forms of money, than corporations. 1 oz Libs got me $20 worth of food! Who made out better in the short term, him or me? It cost me $13 for the Lib! I informed him the upside to silver, and he loved the coin. With reference to $50 base, yeah, I agree it's high. The reasoning for it was the $10, $20 and $50 bases are easily recognized by Americans everywhere. The idea was not to commit fraud, but to use a denomination familiar to Americans. I think it would have been easier to bump to a $30 base, even though it's a strange denomination. The Great Ag
No, you made out OK ... of course I would trade even a pretty Libertad for ENOUGH food... :coolbeer: PS: Where do you get Libertads for $13 each? Or was it a while ago? "Easily recognized"? Easily recognized as what, a standard amount for U.S. legal tender currency? I mean, $30 is an "easily-recognized," nice round number that would work just as well for commerce as $50. But people will probably know that a $30 coin is not legal tender, since the U.S. has never made a bill or coin in that denomination ever (as far as I know). Like I believe you yourself said, people would look twice at a $30 coin and know it was something other than legal tender, while some people will take a $20 coin and assume it is. In fact, if Von NotHaus wanted to be totally forthright, he would INTENTIONALLY make it $15 or $25 or $30 just to PROVE that he's not trying to fool people - I bet the gov't might be a bit more inclined to get off his case, too ... and it would go a long way in any court cases that come up (against him or users of the LD). "Your honor, we've made every effort to make sure it is NOT confused with legal tender - look at the denominations...."

eyeofliberty | 06-15-2007 02:49 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Ag (Post 638353) Silver is a great way to exchange goods and services! It was a Baja Mexico restaurant. Like I said, small business are more open to alternative forms of money, than corporations. 1 oz Libs got me $20 worth of food! Who made out better in the short term, him or me? It cost me $13 for the Lib! I informed him the upside to silver, and he loved the coin.
Baja Mexico, as in the place? Or is that the name of the restaurant, in the U.S.? That's pretty cool if you bought goods with a Mex Lib at a U.S. restaurant.

The Great Ag | 06-15-2007 03:21 PM
Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysWrite (Post 638362) PS: Where do you get Libertads for $13 each? Or was it a while ago? Actually $13.48 from Colorado Gold.com, about 45 days ago when silver dipple. He sells them for .75 over spot with a minimum order of 100oz. "Easily recognized"? Easily recognized as what, a standard amount for U.S. legal tender currency?
I guess I should have said "psychologically recognized" denominations. It's odd enough that someone would "pay" for goods and services with silver, why compound the difference with an odd denominational amount? That would be my answer. I understand the difficulty with the seignorage, but as I have posted earlier, the gov'ts seignorage is even worse! $.04 for a dollar bill, $.09 for a quarter. . .etc. I don't see many people complaining about this. If the LD bothers people then it should with the gov't too! Maybe they don't think about the seignorage with US coins? I'd rather pay extra for silver than for clad sandwiches or paper. Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeofliberty (Post 638373) Baja Mexico, as in the place? Or is that the name of the restaurant, in the U.S.? That's pretty cool if you bought goods with a Mex Lib at a U.S. restaurant.
No, local here in Delaware. The owner is from Baja, and I have used silver before, but his eyes lit up when I showed him the Libertad. The Great Ag

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