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- - The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=27697)

SilverKnight | 01-05-2006 07:45 PM
The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic Ok, this is a very old idea that I had as a child that I am asking some professional advice on: Say you buy some rolls of American Silver Eagles of a particular year from the U.S. Mint, the current or previous. They are sold as "unopened" in the original green-top roll. You never open them yourself, and then wait 40-60 years. After you retire (or your grandchildren dig them up) you look up PCGS, ANACS or NGC and find out that they have a processing fee of $15-30 per coin. You decide to crack open your airtight roll of American Silver Eagles and send a few of the coins to the company for grading. What is the chance these Brilliant Uncirculated (BU), never-touched coins can be graded at MS-62+? Can you "go numismatic" on BU coins and expect to get a MS grade worth your money and time? Should you grade the BU coins immediately, or wait 50 years? I see graded, slabbed coins sold by the coin dealers that are current year or only one year old, and I see the Proof (double-striked) sets sold for a lot of money over and above the usual coin price. Is there a way for the average collector to cut out the middle man and magnify his/her investment into the numismatic realm? What is the difference between BU and MS-60 in a slab? Or is this game decided by others, and then sold to the masses?

rathbone | 01-05-2006 10:32 PM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic Here's what I do. 100% of my silver is in Eagles. I buy thinking that it is bullion with a premium attached. All things being equal, I pick the better years, and sometimes pay a bit more for them. My thoughts are, you'll never convince anyone now or 40 years from now that those green tubes of 20 haven't been search, so there is no point in trying. Leave them in the tubes if you want, but I'd search them and put the nicer ones in Air-tites for the long term grandkids thing. Otherwise, they are just bullion waiting to sell when the price is right. Speaking of SAE's, you can go to Littletoncoin.com, click on 'respnd to an ad' on the left and use code KL4100 to buy 5 eagles at $8.95 with free shipping and they toss in a couple freebies.

erichops | 01-06-2006 02:18 AM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic I see on ebay that people must search the tubes and submit the nicer ones to be graded by pcgs of ngc. What grade do they have to make to be worth sending to a third party grader? It kind of looks like if it isn't a MS 69 it wouldn't be worth it, but I do not know how much it costs to have them graded? Also, how many do you have to look through to find ones that are worth it? Is it like 1 in a 100, or is it better then that?

SilverKnight | 01-06-2006 04:08 AM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic And there's the rub, as the saying goes. I'm supposed to search the coins _now_ and determine with my untrained eye a MS-65 out of the bunch to send to PCGS for confirmation and slabbing? This is a Catch-22! Let's see, a freshly minted coin in an untouched Mint roll. Remove with cotton gloves and send in a bubblewrap package to PCGS. Yeah, that should come back as MS-69, right?

eat_beef | 01-06-2006 09:18 AM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic "Let's see, a freshly minted coin in an untouched Mint roll. Remove with cotton gloves and send in a bubblewrap package to PCGS. Yeah, that should come back as MS-69, right?" Wrong. Unfortunately, even in mint sealed tubes some of them have scratches, dings, etc. I even had one with a black spot. Also, you have to get a membership to PCGS, something like $75-$100 bucks, then pay $15 a coin. I'm sure you can make money.........if you can pick out ms69+ every time and do 100 per month. Otherwise, I don't see how it would be a money maker. If you want some collecter's items, I'd say buy some ms 69-70's and put them away. They don't cost all that much. Problem is, they don't cost all that much, hence there are a lot of them around. So unless they all get broken out and melted down, they won't be worth all that much. Then again, who in 1920 thought a $20 coin would go for $20,000. :eating: beef

Goldhedge | 01-06-2006 09:50 AM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic Quote:
Originally Posted by eat_beef I'm sure you can make money.........if you can pick out ms69+ every time and do 100 per month. Otherwise, I don't see how it would be a money maker.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't collector coins made by striking with a different type of die? I thought they stamped them with a hardened die stamp which caused them to be near perfect, or some such?

eat_beef | 01-06-2006 10:20 AM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic Are you thinking of proof coins? The problem isn't so much with the strike of the coins, but with anything that happens to them after that, i.e. rubs, bumps, etc. I'm not talking big ugly stuff, but an ms70 is "perfect". Also, there is a difference in the actual 'strike' of the coins. PCGS rates some (eagles) 'first strike' because as thousands of coins are made (struck) by the dies, the dies wear and no longer make as fine of a coin. The whole 'collector' issue is vague. Some folks collect worn out whatever. When I say collecter, I mean of significant value due to rarity. That's why I like bullion. I know enough to know I don't know much about all that numis-poop. I know from experience you can really step in it if you let some coin salesman put the snake oil on you. :eating: beef

SirSilverOzzyyzzO | 01-16-2006 03:08 AM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic Silverknight; I'm a little late in a response to your post, but maybe this will help? First, there is a big debate (As we all know) between numismatic (Graded/Slabbed/Eagles/Morgans etc. etc.) and the best bang for your buck type silver(Plane Jane Rounds/Generic). It all depends where your head is at and what your plan is? But, if American Silver Eagles have any future, in your future. I suggest you subscribe to, "Coin World" for starters. Furthermore, I'll try and answer your questions from here on in... As well as, let you in on what I have learned. Regarding E-Bay... I think it quite possible to find a deal. Yet equally possible to buy another persons, CRUD. Lets say you wanted to buy a mint roll of, 1998 Silver eagles? #1. I would stay away from, "Coin Dealers" or "Power Sellers"... I mean why wouldn't they, "Cherry Pick" the roll first? Then sell you all the MS-60's to MS-67's? They have the know how with regard to, picking a coin with a better chance, at a better grade. As well as better means. Or for that matter anyone else? Still, I think buying from an averge Joe gives you better odds, at getting better coins, on e-bay. Read their feedback, look at their recent buys, ask is the coin in the picture the one I will get? LOOK at the coin! I have more than once held my, Zeiss loupe to the picture... Lol. Check to see if they bought the coin or roll, within the last 3 months. Are they now dumping the new roll, they Cherry Picked? I jumped the gun a little. Let me rewind. Buy and hold or Buy and grade, American eagles? Buy and hold; Eagles if you DO NOT CARE about Numismatic value. Put them away and Never touch them. Sell them when you can make a nice profit! As is. Buy and grade; them if you plan to hold them for long term. Learn to use a Loupe. I recommend a, Carl Zeiss 6x loupe. Subscribe to, Coin World. They offer good advice on, how to look at a coin. But you need to hunt around(I recommend, both the on-line and print editions). When you buy to grade, you are looking at some overhead. Overhead in, your time/patience, money for shipping coins to, PCGS and or NGC (ONLY ONE OF THOSE TWO). An annual fee for the privilege to send them your coins. You need to send them, Registered Mail! It gets expensive. All in addition to the actual grade fees. Example, The cheapest fee NGC offers is, $11.00 a coin with a 5 coin minimum. Shipping on average for SAE's for that amount is, $15.90(I just remembered, NGC "on-line" does offer an additional 10% discount). Now PCGS cost between 14.00-18.00 bucks a coin, shipping is the same and they offer No on-line service. PCGS coins demand a higher value, but in my opinion, it is hard to get good graded coins, if you the amateur send them into PCGS. IMHO NGC is for the little to middle guy, best overall bang for your buck! That is, if your gonna go the amateur way and send in your own coins. Actually, I KNOW THEY ARE. Trust me, I have spent a lot of money doing this. Amassing the coins will have to be done by you as well. Hence the, e-bay info. and the loupe advice. You'll need to learn what to look for... It is almost, HIT or Miss(For the average joe). But it can be done! If you have the, time, patience, luck and can be savy. For example, In the past six months, just from e-bay alone. I have bought raw SAE's, sent the better ones to either, NGC or PCGS. In return 26 MS-69's. In addition, those were all 1996 coins, the rarest year. So yes it can be done. Buy a lot of aspirin... So, should you store them, then grade latter? I say NO. Why take a chance? Learn the basics and send them in now. Preserve them while they are in a good state. I like the SAE's that are, MS-66 or better! Some say anything below MS-66 is NOT worth collecting. When I send a coin to get graded, I set the minimum grade @ MS-66(You pay the fee for each coin, no matter the grade, even if it is ungradeable....). I also have the mind-set that, my graded coins will NOT be sold for a long, long time! Most importantly, I only buy, 1996,1994,1997,1995 and 1998 SAE's. As of yet, those are the rarest dates. But I know, you know that already. What I'm trying to say is, my above advice refers to those years and only those years. All the other years just don't seem worth it to me. It's gonna take a longtime for 1986 on up SAE's to be, Morgan Silver Dollar valuable. But why not prepare early? I saw a mention to Proofs and that they are coined different from, business strikes. They are, goto the U.S. mint site. They have a little movie slide on the differences. My advice: BUY SILVER! In all different forms. If your gonna buy proofs? Buy around this time of the year! I say, buy 20. Send them all into, NGC. I bet you get, 1-2 PF-70's and at least 15 PF-69's. Put the 68's and below back into the original box. Keep the 70's, sell the rest! If your gonna buy business strikes? Befriend your, Zeiss loupe, learn it, love it. Get COTTON GLOVES! NEVER EVEN Breath on a coin you think looks grade worthy! Do your best to cut out the, "MiddleMan"! Become E-bay savy, visit coin shows and stores with your loupe close at hand. Hunt down the rare years. IMHO there is a seller on e-bay, selling 1994 SAE's, NGC MS-69's, all the time, at very good prices. It would cost you roughly 23 bucks to just find a, 1994 grade worthy coin. Another 13 bucks or so to send it into get graded. And then three weeks of hoping for an MS-69... On average his/her goes for 31 bucks. Look around, you'll see who it is if you pay attention. It's not me either....lol I'm actually done with, grading or graded SAE's. I'm just hoping what I learned may help others a little? This site has helped me out, a lot! I rarely post, but felt I needed to. Besides, I'm not creating compitition, I now only buy, 90% silver coins and generic rounds. I only hope I offered decent advice! Moreover, I responded while at work. Going back and forth. So I apologize if it's spotty. P.S. Lastly, this is only in my experience... I have noticed that, if I sent NGC 40 or more coins, I would always get back at least one MS-70. Always. Just wondered if that was a pattern, politics or a very nice, thanks for picking us and not PCGS? Lol

The Argent Dragon | 01-16-2006 10:28 AM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverKnight And there's the rub, as the saying goes. I'm supposed to search the coins _now_ and determine with my untrained eye a MS-65 out of the bunch to send to PCGS for confirmation and slabbing? This is a Catch-22! Let's see, a freshly minted coin in an untouched Mint roll. Remove with cotton gloves and send in a bubblewrap package to PCGS. Yeah, that should come back as MS-69, right?
Well, it's actually worse than you think..... I deal with Morgan Dollars on a regular basis and the minting of coins in the last 120+ years have changed dramatically. You're right about an Eagle should be at least MS-67 to MS-69 for a nice collectible coin. For Morgan Dollars the grade slips to the MS-63 to MS-65 range. Why ? Mintage of early dollars were poor. So poor, that coins actually left the mint in the state of AU-58 (yes, that's almost uncirculated). Let's say that happened today, and you're roll left the mint as MS-62 coins. Then, no matter what you did - how you store them - or if you even use gloves in handling.......they are and will always be MS-62 at best. The answer is in the *Luster.....and *Strike..... Sharply struck coins always grade higher. Nice even Luster type coins with unusual sheen grade higher. Sharp coins with very nice luster grade the Highest.... ***Keep in mind that toning does not affect the grade (although Morgans tend to grade higher when nicely toned). This means that using gloves is futile for trying to keep an MS-65 coin in the state of MS-65. Remember to handle coins by their edges and your collection will be very happy. Personally, I wouldn't send in any coin to be graded that doesn't have a minimum value of at least $100 which usually applies to very nice specimens over 50 years old. Now, if we're talking about an MS-64 Carson City dollar......that's a whole 'nother ballgame !!!!

SirSilverOzzyyzzO | 01-16-2006 01:53 PM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic "TAD" That was some Excellent advice. Almost zen like, in it's really just common sense behind it all? Luster, Strike... Your few sentences beat my long boring story...

Sturdly | 01-16-2006 07:55 PM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic The way the big boys do it is to buy early in the year strikes by multiples of monster boxes sealed and direct from the mint. They are opened at the grading facility for the first time. Before the lot is ever processed the profit in total dollars has been established, over and above shipping, purchase price and grading fees. The coins are then graded. All that meet the specified grades are slabbed the others returned to the tubes and sold as BU. The coins that make the cut are expected to produce the rest of the profit and priced accordingly. The more coins that grade out the less expensive they are per unit. They even sell the empty monster boxes for around $10.00. Chances are the unopened tubes one buys from these big dealers have already been searched. Best to buy a sealed monster box if you want the highest percentage of coins that will grade out.

The Argent Dragon | 01-18-2006 09:43 AM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic Quote:
Originally Posted by SirSilverOzzyyzzO "TAD" That was some Excellent advice. Almost zen like, in it's really just common sense behind it all? Luster, Strike... Your few sentences beat my long boring story...
Thanks, it's all part of the world of numismatics. :wink:

jello_g | 01-18-2006 03:47 PM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturdly ...Best to buy a sealed monster box if you want the highest percentage of coins that will grade out.
How does one go about buying sealed monster boxes from the US Mint? How about the Canadian Mint?

SirSilverOzzyyzzO | 01-18-2006 06:47 PM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic Search around... Eye know Apmex.com sells them. Never had a problem ordering from them. Dunno about the Canadian coins...:thinkey: Does anyone else here think, searching, collecting and or hoarding/holding, 1996/1994 and 1997 SAE's(Slabbed) for the Long_________ haul is worthwhile? Lets say, 20-30 years tops???????

HistoryStudent | 01-18-2006 07:14 PM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic Quote:
Originally Posted by jello_g How does one go about buying sealed monster boxes from the US Mint? How about the Canadian Mint?
If you live in/near big city you can buy them for cash from a coin dealer. Call first. Private.

Sturdly | 01-18-2006 08:21 PM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic Quote:
Originally Posted by SirSilverOzzyyzzO Search around... Eye know Apmex.com sells them. Never had a problem ordering from them. Dunno about the Canadian coins...:thinkey:
The Canadian coins are readily available also. Plus you can buy a mint sealed mini-monster box of 200 each. A nice size if you are buying a box per mint year. You can cover 2.5 years for the price of 1 year with a 500 count full on monster box (given a stable silver price of course). Plus the guarantee that you are the first pick them over. Downside is they are not as asthetically pleasing on the obverse as the Walker SAE. That woman is homely, and as someone here said "looks like Ronald Mac Donald".

jello_g | 01-18-2006 08:51 PM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic I always liked the deals at Apmex. Too bad they don't ship to Canada. :Sorry: Suppose I'll have to try the local dealers.

Sturdly | 01-18-2006 08:55 PM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic Quote:
Originally Posted by jello_g I always liked the deals at Apmex. Too bad they don't ship to Canada. :Sorry: Suppose I'll have to try the local dealers.
Scotia Bank sells bullion of all flavours, even Sovereigns. Are they that much higher than APMEX ? And here I thought you guys were lucky 'cause the banks up there sold them.

eat_beef | 01-19-2006 10:21 AM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic Google U.S. Mint and dig around on their site, there's a list of local sellers of American Eagles. Not sure if there are any in Canada, didn't look anywhere but my own back yard. Good luck, :eating: beef

jello_g | 01-20-2006 07:33 AM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic Thanks for the advice folks! Never considered Scotia Bank, though I doubt they'd carry any Eagles, especially in a monster box? Maples maybe, but nobody seems to certify maple leafs.. I'll have to ring up the larger local dealers and perhaps contact the US and Cdn mints directly (yikes, I just hate dealing with larger bureaucracies). :wazzup_sg

Sturdly | 01-20-2006 08:29 AM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic Maples for sure in gold, platinum, palladium and silver. I believe just Commonwealth minted items. Check their web site.

SirSilverOzzyyzzO | 01-20-2006 11:45 AM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic Quote:
Originally Posted by jello_g Thanks for the advice folks! Never considered Scotia Bank, though I doubt they'd carry any Eagles, especially in a monster box? Maples maybe, but nobody seems to certify maple leafs.. I'll have to ring up the larger local dealers and perhaps contact the US and Cdn mints directly (yikes, I just hate dealing with larger bureaucracies). :wazzup_sg
Time to get, happy:yippee:. NGC most certainly grades/certifies Maple Leafs. You'll need to enroll(:call:)with them, in order to send them on in. :boxing:(Gold vs. the Fiat, Gold is on the right).

azxcvbnm321 | 01-20-2006 02:26 PM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic You're all forgetting one important factor, supply. Storing mass-produced coins for 40+ years will not bring a great premium. Look at Morgans which are a hundred years old, and had been melted down in large quantities in the 70's. You can still get a nice Morgan for $30 or lower. Now $1 invested in real estate, stocks, etc., or a scarce coin like some of the earlier gold coins would have gotten you a lot more. Save your money and time.

SirSilverOzzyyzzO | 01-21-2006 01:10 AM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic ABCDEFG Through Z, A very good point on the, CON side. Lets hear more for the, PRO side...

Sturdly | 01-21-2006 09:15 AM
Re: The Long Wait for American Silver Eagles (or other) to Become Numismatic Quote:
Originally Posted by azxcvbnm321 You're all forgetting one important factor, supply. Storing mass-produced coins for 40+ years will not bring a great premium. Look at Morgans which are a hundred years old, and had been melted down in large quantities in the 70's. You can still get a nice Morgan for $30 or lower. Now $1 invested in real estate, stocks, etc., or a scarce coin like some of the earlier gold coins would have gotten you a lot more. Save your money and time.
The Morgan is a horse of another color. They were over produced by the millions for years. So much so that in the 1970's the Treasury dept. found millions of unissued pieces that had somehow been stored and forgotten about for close to 100 years, then sold them into circulation. Some unhappy owners of previously rare coins saw their value take a huge drop when these flooded the market, so a thing to consider. But I doubt the Mint has lost millions of SAE's Not really a fair comparison. The Morgan was basically reissued well after the fact. On the other hand the SAE has not been a circulating coin of commerce. So top grading, MS69 and up will be the key to rarity. Check out the prices of Susan B and Sacajawea (clad regular strikes) dollars on the PCGS web price guide. A complete Susan B. Anthony set of 12 each coins MS67 list at $15935........ for 12 clad coins ? Even I can't believe some of those. It does however demonstrate the potential of this concept. Plus with the SAE you always have the bullion value as a stop loss point.

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