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- - Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=31087)

HistoryStudent | 03-09-2006 02:40 PM
Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... grabbing some notice and TAKING off with the gold price. http://www.pcgs.com/prices/frame.cht...ty_head_twenty http://www.pcgs.com/ Just got back (5) of these from NGC: $20 1852 Paid $650 five years ago now $2,500 retail $20 1854 large Date Paid $400 five years ago now $4,000 to $5,000 retail The other three are only doubled! in five years. Thanks be to GOD. Read below,

gpond | 03-09-2006 02:47 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Congrats!!

lhslancers | 03-09-2006 06:26 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Very nice HS.:applause_

Sturdly | 03-09-2006 09:17 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... I think I mentioned in another thread that the pre civil war stuff was good to go. Wish I had gotten some, good buy's with more to come. Up just a bit more than bullion over the same time period. Good one.

samwheat | 03-09-2006 09:26 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Congrats HS, I just don't understand that market ...... more fiat for markings on a money Will they buy you more stuff wtshtf?

Julian | 03-10-2006 03:27 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Which begs the question: Who is going to buy them from you at that price? Is there an actual market for numismatics at that price? Julian

Pragmatist | 03-10-2006 03:41 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... I have bought a few "numismatics" at a small premium over Gold Eagles. They have appreciated faster than the bullion price. I know buyers as well. A small portion of my PM portfolio and there are profits to be made there IMO. Worst case scenario I only paid a small premium to begin with. Prag

lhslancers | 03-10-2006 03:51 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Quote:
Originally Posted by Pragmatist I have bought a few "numismatics" at a small premium over Gold Eagles. They have appreciated faster than the bullion price. I know buyers as well. A small portion of my PM portfolio and there are profits to be made there IMO. Worst case scenario I only paid a small premium to begin with. Prag
What grade coins are you talking about?

HistoryStudent | 03-11-2006 12:11 AM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Think of NGC & PCGS as certified $1000 & $2000 dollar bills in MS63 and MS65 respectively. Buy 2 - MS63s to (each) 1- MS65. Only put 5 to 10% of your total PM metals into certified stuff. Buy the common stuff i.e. - 1908 no motto - 1924, 1925, 1926, 1927, 1928, and DYODD Spend at least ten to twenty hours studing the marketplace. Use Ebay to study prices and then look around. I've boiught a few from these guys quickest shipping I've seen in the business: http://universitycoins.com/ Kinda fun having another angle on the physical - and it open other doors for you later. I'll let the wise figure that one out. Have fun - you've found another PM investment opportunity. Not more than 10%!

Pragmatist | 03-11-2006 04:36 AM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Quote:
Originally Posted by lhslancers What grade coins are you talking about?
$20 1899S Coronet EF-49 paid $489 in Nov, $20 1926 St. Gaudine AU-55 PCGS paid $554 in Feb, $5 Indian AU-50 NGC (had the biggest premium but there is a hot market there and I wanted one) paid $300 last week. Prag

Sturdly | 03-11-2006 09:07 AM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Quote:
Originally Posted by samwheat Congrats HS, I just don't understand that market ...... more fiat for markings on a money Will they buy you more stuff wtshtf?
Sam, it seems some people are willing to pay a big premium to own things that few others can. Others see the price increases and want some of the action, especially since no 1099 on numismatics.... I can't explain why a $10 MS64 Indian is worth about 3 $20 MS64 Saint's or close to 5 ounces of bullion to some. Perceived value I guess. The fact of the matter is the numi's are currently moving up at a faster clip. I'll trade 1/2 of mine once they double in bullion value. Just another tool in the box to increase bullion holdings.

HistoryStudent | 03-11-2006 10:35 AM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturdly Sam, it seems some people are willing to pay a big premium to own things that few others can. Others see the price increases and want some of the action, especially since no 1099 on numismatics.... I can't explain why a $10 MS64 Indian is worth about 3 $20 MS64 Saint's or close to 5 ounces of bullion to some. Perceived value I guess. The fact of the matter is the numi's are currently moving up at a faster clip. I'll trade 1/2 of mine once they double in bullion value. Just another tool in the box to increase bullion holdings.
Very good short explanation and great exit strategy. A huge firm is PUSHING UP the price of the $10 Indians. My coin dealer mentioned that to me and I saw it on a chat numismatic site. Probably Heritage Coins- but, I'm not sure. Due to marketing and dishoarding of their large inventory. Dealer said that the coins were too expensive for what you get right now. I only bought one for a type set. Bottom line is that I noticed the the common dated Saints rise up fast because no matter what they are the ones that the NEW WANTA BE's BUY first. SO............................................... Let me mention exit strategies of Three ways to exit: when gold doubles - 1) sell 25% makes the remaining 75% only 50% investment 2) sell 50% makes the remaining investment of 50% paid for 3) sell 75% makes the remaining 25% paid for with a profit of 25% I would like to sell about 67% which is a hybrid between #2 & #3 (right now if I sold I would trade into gold bullion always looking for something UNDERVALUED and today March 11th, 2006 GOLD bullion coins are a deal) Best wishes to all; HS

Pragmatist | 03-11-2006 12:03 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... To follow the numismatic markets, I recommend Coin World's weekly publication. Once a month they publish market prices on U.S. gold coins. Seems to be an industry standard and the dealers I know base their buy/sell prices on it. I am not on my regular computer, or I would post the latest sheet. I also like to shop the advertisements there. St. Gaudines and $5 Indians have been a hot market for a while. They have already seen substantial gains. $10 Indians are next and are already seeing market adjustments from demand. Coronets/Liberties still have the smallest premium. If you look around EF/AU quality can be picked up for about the same price as Eagles. If I can get it at the right price I would preffer pre-1933 over modern. My strategy has been to pick up decent coins with small premiums. I shop EF/AU and look for good deals on the dips, special offers, etc. Many purist would disagree but I think there are gains to be had in this market with minimum risk. Probably bigger gains in the next league, Uncirculated, with greater premiums and risk. I preffer to play if safe and buy close to bullion prices. Prag

lhslancers | 03-11-2006 12:23 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Prag I agree with you about accumulating bullion with the pre 1933 Gold coins over the newer coins. How do you feel about these coins in About Good condition? I wonder if they would be harder to dishoard if they were not in desireable shape. I prefer not to pay any premium at all. A local guy has access to a lot of $10 Liberties is rough condition. Unless I go to large internet dealers I find the Eagles and Maple Leafs considerably higher to buy than melt price. I also like the fact these coins have some history and are a hell of a lot more fun to collect.

Pragmatist | 03-11-2006 12:34 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... lhslancers Good and About Good are no good in numismatic circles. Thats why I buy EF or better. However, as you well know, gold is gold. Premiums are rising on Eagles, Maples, etc. You may get some premium back when you go to sell. However, if you are getting more bang for the buck from Pre-33 AG (about good), all is well. IMO. Keep in mind they are a little skinny in content. $20 Coronet/Liberties are .98oz in mint condition. I am considering doing the same if I can find the right seller. Prag

HistoryStudent | 03-12-2006 03:45 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Prag - really means PRACTICAL and you are and have a good strategy for buying EF to AU at a good rate. As you say the saints and indians are hot right now and that may fade. But if the gold RESUMES it price rise according to the GREAT INFLATION of the US FED/GOVT. (50% in last 5 years) and now hiding the facts this month - well, I suspect THINGS will even double from here, say, 100% in the next 5 years is my guess. Gotta GREASE the wheels of commerce, stocks, and bonds - I always say. Imagine having a couple of million dollars in the FEDERAL banks; getting 6% interest over the next five years; and THEN losing half the buying power. No wonder the Founding Fathers called INFLATION a "silent sneaky serpent" of theft! Watch out when your in the bank for the slinky things on the floor and behind the "counters." They are "counting" (pun intended) how much money they can steal from you.

Pragmatist | 03-12-2006 04:26 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... History Student Inflation was one of the major factors that led me to PM's. Preservation of what I have and not helplessly watching as the dollar shrivels through entropy was my big concern. All of my research kept leading me back to gold & silver. Money Markets, CD's, etc aren't keeping up with the rate of decay. I did not want to re-invest at the peak of the real estate boom. Sold my last piece of property in 2005 and glad to be out. I am not a fan of the stock market. However, with the M3 being hidden, I believe large amounts of fiat will be used to pump up the dow. I believe there are profits to be made there before it collapses. I have invested a small amount of "gambling money" into the miners. Getting out at the right time will be key. If not sooner, when the dow hits 12,000 again I will close out and put my earnings into PM's. I am not self employed, right now and don't want to be. Therefore I do not want to invest in my own business. The only market that looked promising to me, right now, is PM's. I also like the liquidity it affords. That's what led me to GIM. There is some great info here on the metals and the miners. I think EF-AU gold coins are still a good investment right now. As prices go up, I feel their premiums will increase as they become more popular. Therefore have an even greater return than bullion. If not, for the most part I am picking them up close to the same premiums as Eagles. Playing Both Ends Against The Middle Prag

lhslancers | 03-12-2006 04:56 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Quote:
Originally Posted by Pragmatist lhslancers Good and About Good are no good in numismatic circles. Thats why I buy EF or better. However, as you well know, gold is gold. Premiums are rising on Eagles, Maples, etc. You may get some premium back when you go to sell. However, if you are getting more bang for the buck from Pre-33 AG (about good), all is well. IMO. Keep in mind they are a little skinny in content. $20 Coronet/Liberties are .98oz in mint condition. I am considering doing the same if I can find the right seller. Prag
Prag I know they are a bit light in content but the ones I have access to are at spot. I was interested in the uglies only as bullion.

HistoryStudent | 03-12-2006 05:23 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Quote:
Originally Posted by Pragmatist History Student Inflation was one of the major factors that led me to PM's. Preservation of what I have and not helplessly watching as the dollar shrivels through entropy was my big concern. All of my research kept leading me back to gold & silver. Money Markets, CD's, etc aren't keeping up with the rate of decay. I did not want to re-invest at the peak of the real estate boom. Sold my last piece of property in 2005 and glad to be out. I am not a fan of the stock market. However, with the M3 being hidden, I believe large amounts of fiat will be used to pump up the dow. I believe there are profits to be made there before it collapses. I have invested a small amount of "gambling money" into the miners. Getting out at the right time will be key. If not sooner, when the dow hits 12,000 again I will close out and put my earnings into PM's. I am not self employed, right now and don't want to be. Therefore I do not want to invest in my own business. The only market that looked promising to me, right now, is PM's. I also like the liquidity it affords. That's what led me to GIM. There is some great info here on the metals and the miners. I think EF-AU gold coins are still a good investment right now. As prices go up, I feel their premiums will increase as they become more popular. Therefore have an even greater return than bullion. If not, for the most part I am picking them up close to the same premiums as Eagles. Playing Both Ends Against The Middle Prag
Dang me, dang me, we are both on the same exact page. The only thing I may add to your last post is that something UNEXPECTED might happen. Jim Sinclair writes about that in detail. Any way I see maybe six precious metals investments so I can not only get the return of my principle but also a return on the principle - something that MOST paper (products) can NOT offer right now. And frankly, Pragmatist, U.S. real estate is a TOTAL SNOW JOB and a joke (I live in So. Calif. down by San Diego); with the biggest MOTHER OF bubbles in bubbles (MORTGAGES holding up the market). Those six PM investments are: 1-Silver bullion (1 oz coins; & 5,10, 100 oz. bars) no 1000 oz bars for me. 2-Silver US coins (bags of $500 each) 3-Silver dollars (graded certified & junk silver $) (40% of total PMs) 4-Gold raw coins US & foreign (old British sovgns.; French, Mexican, So. American, & etcetera; plus $10 & $20 US raw gold) 5-Gold bullion (10th, quarter, half and one ounce coins all KNOWN types) (50% of total PMs) 6-Gold US ($10 & $20 certified ONLY BY - NGC or PCGS) (10% of total PMs) I see some benefit in holding some stocks in natural resources: mining water lumber Light benefit in hold stocks in war materials: arms weapons etc. I see with inflation and geopolitics at a MAXIMUM that: Oil - at $200 from $60+ now gold - to $2000 - $5000 silver - to $50 - $200 platinum - to $2000 - $5000 DOW - to 15,000 (inflation figures in) from 11,000 now FSDAX (Fed. Defense M/F) - to $200 from around $76 now Commodites CRB - to 700 from 320 now The trick is three-fold: 1) great exit strategy 2) something under-valued to trade into 3) knowing when to do IT! ************* HS rhyme: Do your own research, be smart and RIGHT; take YOUR position, and sit DARN TIGHT! (according to Jesse Livermore most fail on patience) Then at the right time trade and take a BITE, (might be a failed real estate market again like in the 1930s) And PRAY TO HOLY GOD you were Right.

HistoryStudent | 03-18-2006 10:47 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... It should be real fun to watch the MS saints when the gold price PERHAPS launchs in the next week or so to $620 plus/minus buck. http://www.pcgs.com click prices

Pragmatist | 03-19-2006 12:56 AM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD noWrap>Publication:Coin World; </TD><TD noWrap>Date:<SCRIPT xmlns:ms="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:xslt"> var d = new Date("03/27/2006"); document.write(d.toLocaleString().replace(/([0-9])*[0-9][:,-][0-9][0-9]([:,-][0-9][0-9])*( AM| PM)*/gi,"")); </SCRIPT> Monday, March 27, 2006 ; </TD><TD noWrap>Section:Coin Values; </TD><TD noWrap>Page:58</TD><TD width="100%"></TD><TD noWrap></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Higher gold price draws buyers to better dates By Mark Ferguson COIN VALUES Market Analyst As you are probably aware, the price of gold bullion has been in a swiftly rising trend since spring 2001 when it bottomed out at slightly more than $250 per ounce, to rise to about $572 on Feb. 2. Gold�s price is a little lower at this writing, near $550. Experience has shown that mass buyers generally wait until a market begins moving higher before jumping in to make purchases. This strategy misses the low point, but alleviates risking a lower market and having to wait until the market begins moving higher. Gold owners have had to endure the wait for many years, as its price experienced a bumpy downtrend from the highest it�s ever been at $850 on Jan. 21, 1980, to the low point in 2001. Owning American Eagle silver, gold and platinum bullion coins is one of the most popular ways to hold precious metals, as the U.S. government intended in creating these coins. Prior to 1986 when the U.S. Mint began producing American Eagle silver and gold bullion coins, buyers had to purchase bars or foreign bullion coins. The American Eagle platinum coins were introduced in 1997. One advantage of owning American Eagles is that they�re legal tender coins with denominations, albeit lower than the value of their bullion content. So, owning American Eagles is really only going to reflect higher or lower bullion prices. The fad of having these bullion coins graded by commercial grading services makes absolutely no difference to their intrinsic values. Millions of these coins have been manufactured, and as greater numbers of them are graded, the values of those coins are generally destined to fall, except for a very few select issues with extraordinarily low mintages. Therefore, many knowledgeable gold buyers have sought out the older U.S. numismatic gold coins, minted from 1795 through 1933. The common dates in the series minted during those years offer investment potential in their gold content, but also in rising collector premiums over the value of their bullion content. The $20 double eagle gold coins, namely the Coronet design and the Saint-Gaudens design coins, are the preferred bullion-related coins to purchase. However, better date and higher-grade 20 th century Indian Head and Saint-Gaudens gold coins have recently fired up with stronger demand during past months. Our latest valuation updates for these coins have shown that about a third of these values have increased, and about half have gone up in the Saint-Gaudens double eagle series, including in the higher grades for all these series. And this is after frequent updates as gold has been rising. People like the Indian Head gold $2.50, $5 and $10 coins, as well as the Saint-Gaudens double eagles, because they are short series. The Indian Head quarter eagle and half eagle were struck from 1908 to 1929, with long gaps of no production after 1915 and 1916, respectively; the Indian Head eagle was struck from 1907 to 1933, also with long gaps; and the Saint-Gaudens double eagle, from 1907 to 1933, with fewer production gaps than the lower denominations. Date and Mint mark sets of these coins can be assembled fairly easily, except for a few expensive stoppers especially in the Saint-Gaudens double eagle series. Type sets of these coins have also been exceedingly popular. <SUP>CW </SUP> http://online.amospublishing.com/Rep.../Pc0580300.jpg SHORT GOLD SERIES like the Saint-Gaudens double eagle are popular with collectors wanting to own gold coins that have higher numismatic values than gold bullion coins possess.

HistoryStudent | 05-03-2006 05:55 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... COINS jumped up again with the gold prices. http://www.pcgs.com http://www.pcgs.com/prices/

Indy | 05-03-2006 06:11 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturdly Sam, it seems some people are willing to pay a big premium to own things that few others can. Others see the price increases and want some of the action, especially since no 1099 on numismatics.... I can't explain why a $10 MS64 Indian is worth about 3 $20 MS64 Saint's or close to 5 ounces of bullion to some. Perceived value I guess. The fact of the matter is the numi's are currently moving up at a faster clip. I'll trade 1/2 of mine once they double in bullion value. Just another tool in the box to increase bullion holdings.
If you want to understand why maybe this book will help. http://www.dinesletter.com/masspsychology.html

Jacx | 05-03-2006 06:35 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent Think of NGC & PCGS as certified $1000 & $2000 dollar bills in MS63 and MS65 respectively. Buy 2 - MS63s to (each) 1- MS65. Only put 5 to 10% of your total PM metals into certified stuff. Buy the common stuff i.e. - 1908 no motto - 1924, 1925, 1926, 1927, 1928, and DYODD Spend at least ten to twenty hours studing the marketplace. Use Ebay to study prices and then look around. I've boiught a few from these guys quickest shipping I've seen in the business: http://universitycoins.com/ Kinda fun having another angle on the physical - and it open other doors for you later. I'll let the wise figure that one out. Have fun - you've found another PM investment opportunity. Not more than 10%!
where did I go wrong .... a senior broker and CEO of a large Coin brokerage Co. set up a portfolio for me 8 years ago . I am now at a place with that investment where , if I sell , it will return the monies I started with 8 years ago. Maybe I will hang on for a while and get the 35 % canadian exchange I also lost?

Dude | 05-04-2006 08:38 AM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... I think the PCGS website pricing is overinflated. I constantly see PCGS MS gold slabs sell for 30% below the stated price on ebay. Good pics, but good pics can't always replace actually viewing the coin. There were several Buy-It-Nows yesterday at 25% below PCGS website - some sold, some didn't. Grading is highly subjective and a 1 point grade increase can double or more the "value" of the coin. You also have to find the right buyer for that specific coin that agrees with the grade and agrees to your price. Now throw in other reputable graders and the amazing "certified graders" that steal money from people. You will not get PCGS website prices from average joe or from the dealer. I think it's risky and a very messy market, IMO. If you are buying and selling and making FRN's or building inventory with the profits, great. I applaud your strategy if it works for you. I do love numis, though, I miss the 70's.

HistoryStudent | 05-05-2006 04:07 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Opportuntity is always available to the the wise. No one can bring back the old days until we REDO them in the near future. Buy low and sell high - in the 1970s we never had EBAY to have your own private store front for a small commission charge.

Dude | 05-05-2006 04:17 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... I done gone and did it. 1904 $20 Liberty raw BU with semi-prooflike fields. $704 FRN. I think I will send it to PCGS. Might get a MS-64, but will prolly be a 63. Anyone strike gold with a raw gold piece sent to PCGS? And you are right Hist, the double eagles are not too much above spot - or they are at least close enough to accept, IMO.

The Argent Dragon | 05-05-2006 04:28 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Quote:
Originally Posted by Dude .........I applaud your strategy if it works for you. I do love numis, though, I miss the 70's.
Well, numismatics are back and 'slow' as ever ! :elefant: Silver has been increasing so fast, it's left open fields for me to cherry-pick all my deals. Coin shows have never been better for me. I'm actually living my childhood dream with Barber dimes, quarters, and halves being purchased at 'melt' of SILVER ! :banana: With that in mind, I'm building date sets faster than ever, skimming off the commons into small little 90% piles and ohhhhhhh my stash is so nostalgic with all those 1890's to 1930's coins........we're talkin' pre-WWII And didn't I say at $pot pricing ? - what could be better ?!? :ARMS1:

GoldenSheikUrBootie | 05-05-2006 05:16 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Nice play HS. I bought 5 half-eagle indians. I sent them yesterday to PCGS for authentication and evaluation. Four are nice looking and the 5th is OK looking. I'm curious to see what I bought. I chose the $5 indian because I liked the looks of the coin. I've recently read examples of people buying high grade coins and then complaining that the advertised value price is no where near the what people are willing to pay for the coins. Numismatic values did not keep up with bullion prices in the 80's run up. I doubt they will this time either. I wouldn't recommend buying numismatic for investment in a gold bull market.

The Argent Dragon | 05-05-2006 05:24 PM
Re: Finally, the $20 numismatics Liberties are .... Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenSheikUrBootie ..... Numismatic values did not keep up with bullion prices in the 80's run up. I doubt they will this time either. I wouldn't recommend buying numismatic for investment in a gold bull market.
Yes - that's correct, the numismatic market is a tortoise and will refuse to keep up.........However, you can't loose on numismatics if they're priced at or very near to $pot ! :clap2:

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