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- - let the debate begin... (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=411782)

tekhen | 09-30-2009 11:38 AM
let the debate begin... The 2009 UHR v. The 2008 Unc. Au Buffalo Some facts... * The 1907 UHR is known as one of the most beautiful coins ever minted * The 2009 UHR is the realization of St. Gaudens' 1907 vision * Almost 100,000 2009 UHRs minted * 2009 (unless changed via legislation) is the only year of mintage * The Buffalo - based on James E. Fraser' 5-cent piece * Minted for a few months in 2008 (roughly Jun - Nov) * Less than 10,000 minted * The Unc's were cancelled by the Mint MVHO... I do believe both specimens are a work of art and that visually speaking the UHR is the 'prettier' coin... BUT in the long run the buffalo will be the numismatic king of the two Opinions?

mamboni | 09-30-2009 11:41 AM
Re: let the debate begin... I hope you are right about the gold buffalo. I liked the look of the coin and in 2006 bought a bunch of the business strikes/uncirculated bullion coins. Is that the buffalo of which you speak?

HistoryStudent | 09-30-2009 12:04 PM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by tekhen (Post 1947846) The 2009 UHR v. The 2008 Unc. Au Buffalo Some facts... * The 1907 UHR is known as one of the most beautiful coins ever minted * The 2009 UHR is the realization of St. Gaudens' 1907 vision * Almost 100,000 2009 UHRs minted * 2009 (unless changed via legislation) is the only year of mintage * The Buffalo - based on James E. Fraser' 5-cent piece * Minted for a few months in 2008 (roughly Jun - Nov) * Less than 10,000 minted * The Unc's were cancelled by the Mint MVHO... I do believe both specimens are a work of art and that visually speaking the UHR is the 'prettier' coin... BUT in the long run the buffalo will be the numismatic king of the two Opinions?
I LOVE to have BOTH! You are so right. Everyone is LIMITED in funds. THE BUFF is going to be a very valuable coin. It will be a MODERN coin that turns like an old NUMISMATIC coin. Only a few will AFFORD to have one. I have many 2006 PF?? BUFFS that I will get graded later when the MINT squashes MS & PF versions of the Eagles, Buffs, Plats, and Silver coins next year for good. They will be lucky to make the monster boxes.

tekhen | 09-30-2009 12:11 PM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1947855) I hope you are right about the gold buffalo. I liked the look of the coin and in 2006 bought a bunch of the business strikes/uncirculated bullion coins. Is that the buffalo of which you speak?
I like all buffs but the one I am speaking of is the 2008 W mint-mark Uncirculated... not the bullion version. There were 3 versions in 2008 - Bullion - Uncirculated - Proof The Uncirculated and Proof versions are the ones minted from appx. (Jun-Nov)

ShortJohnSilver | 09-30-2009 12:22 PM
Re: let the debate begin... http://www.apmex.com/Product/31508/2...rculated_.aspx Is this the one you are talking about? What are the mintages for the 2006 Proof?

goldwish | 09-30-2009 12:29 PM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by tekhen (Post 1947907) I like all buffs but the one I am speaking of is the 2008 W mint-mark Uncirculated... not the bullion version. There were 3 versions in 2008 - Bullion - Uncirculated - Proof The Uncirculated and Proof versions are the ones minted from appx. (Jun-Nov)
...and the "Celebration" issued with red box etc. ? :4_8_4v:

tekhen | 09-30-2009 01:36 PM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by ShortJohnSilver (Post 1947927) http://www.apmex.com/Product/31508/2...rculated_.aspx Is this the one you are talking about? What are the mintages for the 2006 Proof?
No, it is not... Your link is for the bullion version... with a mintage of 172,000 ounce bullion buff mintage The one ounce uncirculated 2008 W mint-mark buffs are going for $2000+ ungraded and have a mintage of 9427... see the link below 2006 Proof... 252,000 Gold Buffalo Coins

tekhen | 09-30-2009 01:38 PM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by goldwish (Post 1947933) ...and the "Celebration" issued with red box etc. ? :4_8_4v:
I'm not including the Celebration series because it is a 1/2 ounce. The comparison is between the 2 one ounce coins. Although, any 2008 buff with the W mint-mark is a winner!

goldwish | 09-30-2009 02:34 PM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by tekhen (Post 1948041) I'm not including the Celebration series because it is a 1/2 ounce. The comparison is between the 2 one ounce coins. Although, any 2008 buff with the W mint-mark is a winner!
the Celebration buffalos (buffaloes?) are 1 oz. 24k too (Gold, Pure Gold! :) ) and sold out [url]http://catalog.usmint.gov/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&produ ctId=14399&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=14239[/url edit: celebration coins pulled from bullion stock but I think numbered? mintage: * 2008 Buffalo Celebration Coin: 24,558 from http://goldbuffaloguide.com/american-buffalo-2008-celebration-coin/ thanks for the info and links on this thread!

tekhen | 09-30-2009 02:43 PM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by goldwish (Post 1948142) the Celebration buffalos (buffaloes?) are 1 oz. 24k too (Gold, Pure Gold! :) ) and sold out http://catalog.usmint.gov/webapp/wcs...egory_rn=14239
I stand corrected... I was thinking of the Prosperity Set. If, I'm not mistaken the Celebration is a bullion buff, not Unc.

goldwish | 09-30-2009 03:06 PM
Re: let the debate begin... ahso :p too bad I didn't buy any proof versions of the buff :( but happy to get what I did :) fwiw I like the UHR a lot but like the buffalo design even better. it evokes a whole different "western frontier" emotional feeling.

hernancortes | 09-30-2009 05:05 PM
Re: let the debate begin... The '08 W-Buffalo, hands down. The lowest mintage 1-oz. US gold coin in nearly 100 years! I got a FSMS70 UHR but I really wish I had one o' these buffs. I do have a slew of the non-W's, so not all's lost:565:

HistoryStudent | 09-30-2009 05:47 PM
Re: let the debate begin... A search on EBAY shows that the 2008 W Buffalo in any weight and MS or PF is really really really expensive. There is no debate. The ONLY UHR better IMHO would be a one of seven EARLY RELEASE MS70 *PROOF LIKE* Versus the one ounce BUFFS. JUST maybe even the MS69 PROOF LIKE Early Release - but that's a stretch...................... there are 11 of those. AND there are only 18 of those LUCKY HOLDERS out there in POPULATION land. TOTAL *proof Likes* VERSUS 10,000 BUFFS!

Master_Ho | 10-01-2009 01:40 AM
Re: let the debate begin... I don't disagree with anyone here............ I also think this discussion is sort of academic........... Here is MY question........being that they are, in many ways, even.......... Which do you like, and want, the most........ I have a few of both..........and like both.............. .........but I DO have a preference......... Do you? :wink: Cheers!

Clawdia | 10-01-2009 02:21 AM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by goldwish (Post 1947933) ...and the "Celebration" issued with red box etc. ? :4_8_4v:
The Celebration Buff has no "W" mint mark. Poor li'l unloved thing . . .

HistoryStudent | 10-01-2009 10:13 AM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by Clawdia (Post 1949156) The Celebration Buff has no "W" mint mark. Poor li'l unloved thing . . .
dog gone it - I have those. :4_1_72::4_1_72::yes::111:

tekhen | 10-01-2009 01:30 PM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho (Post 1949120) I don't disagree with anyone here............ I also think this discussion is sort of academic........... Here is MY question........being that they are, in many ways, even.......... Which do you like, and want, the most........ I have a few of both..........and like both.............. .........but I DO have a preference......... Do you? :wink: Cheers!
What is your preference? I will reiterate, from a numismatic point of view the '08-W uncirculated Buff will be king but no one can deny the craftsmanship and look of the '09 UHR ... MVHO

HistoryStudent | 10-01-2009 03:00 PM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by tekhen (Post 1949821) What is your preference? I will reiterate, from a numismatic point of view the '08-W uncirculated Buff will be king but no one can deny the craftsmanship and look of the '09 UHR ... MVHO
You got it SATURN (joke it used to be Toyota) it IS absolute numbers that absolutely determine value - and the desire to finish a set too. The UHR will be a one shot 100 K coin that will go up in percentage to both the price of gold and the desire to have one. I notice that MOST people do not collect the SAINTS because they cost a tad more than the easy to buy gold eagles which are higher graded too. :36_3_12::111:

Master_Ho | 10-01-2009 06:06 PM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by tekhen (Post 1949821) What is your preference? I will reiterate, from a numismatic point of view the '08-W uncirculated Buff will be king but no one can deny the craftsmanship and look of the '09 UHR ... MVHO
I explained once, on a different thread........... I saw the UHR as a kid in Washington in the early 60's..........of all the coins I had ever seen, it was the most dynamic, mainly cause of the 3-D effect. Never seen another quite like it. (Tho I wished it could have been bigger - but to make it bigger you end up with the St Gaudens, almost a flat pen and ink drawing of the original sculpture, once flattened so it would stack.) When I saw they were THINKING of doing the replica, I already knew I would have to have one......and maybe more for investment. I have a few interesting numismatic and semi-numismatic pieces........ I would have to say the UHR is tied with my golden Lunar 2 oz Drazgon coin for being my favorite gold.........then there is an Isle of Man gold dragon from 1986 and THEN the gold Buffalo. I think those would be my favorite semi-numimatic coins in order (in terms of looking at them, not necessarily worth.) But thats my point - everyone has there favorites.......... For the few dollars difference I think you will see between them (and yes, these are the two most recent and collectable semi-numismatic US gold coins that this fields has seen in decades).......it becomes a point of what you prefer to look at. I like to look at both..........but I have a personal visual preference. But thats all it is! You can't go wrong either way! Cheers!

Master_Ho | 10-01-2009 06:10 PM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 1949947) I notice that MOST people do not collect the SAINTS because they cost a tad more than the easy to buy gold eagles which are higher graded too. :36_3_12::111:
Ssssssssshhhhhhhh........geez, do you he to tell the world EVERY LITTLE THING??? Get a hobby!! Take a walk!!! Surf for porn!!!! Good god, TRY and make a nice quick cheap buck around here............. :bawling: :biggrin:

tekhen | 10-01-2009 06:21 PM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 1949947) I notice that MOST people do not collect the SAINTS because they cost a tad more than the easy to buy gold eagles which are higher graded too. :36_3_12::111:
Unfortunately... I got into the numismatic game a little too late, so Saints at the moment are a little too expensive for my taste. Fourtunately, I have found another US pre-1933 coin that I like very much!

HistoryStudent | 10-01-2009 07:02 PM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho (Post 1950259) Ssssssssshhhhhhhh........geez, do you he to tell the world EVERY LITTLE THING??? Get a hobby!! Take a walk!!! Surf for porn!!!! Good god, TRY and make a nice quick cheap buck around here............. :bawling: :biggrin:
Oh for YOU have I got a deal.... I'll sell you a 1922 MS65 NGC (your favorite!) SAINT GAUDEN for only the retail of COIN VALUES = $6,500 "what a deal!" Just for you ($u$ker), my friend: with friends like me who needs enemies, right? :111::111::111::ok::ok:

Master_Ho | 10-01-2009 07:06 PM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 1950362) Oh for YOU have I got a deal.... I'll sell you a 1922 MS65 NGC (your favorite!) SAINT GAUDEN for only the retail of COIN VALUES = $6,500 "what a deal!" Just for you ($u$ker), my friend: with friends like me who needs enemies, right? :111::111::111::ok::ok:
Funny tho that may be - I am dealing with people who have been riped off so severely by dealers yers back - to them it would sound like a deal! :wink: And who is thei NGC you speak of? "Non Grading Chumps"??? :biggrin:

ShortJohnSilver | 10-01-2009 09:43 PM
Re: let the debate begin... What I want is enough cash to load up on the UHRs now. The "marketing" for the UHR is that its history is easier to explain than the history of the Buffs... here is a single coin, made for only 1 year, that is shockingly good looking, a throwback to the days of Teddy Roosevelt (a far better man than his loser cousin) and the glory days of American ascendancy ... and the challenge that was met, of making a coin like the UHR. Meanwhile the Buff is made in a confusing array of years, proof/BU/bullion, mint marks and whatnot. The hardcore numis will want the Buff for sure...my view is that the UHR will also be desirable and will also appreciate a lot.

hernancortes | 10-01-2009 10:42 PM
Re: let the debate begin... While we're talking 1-ounce moderns, how about the '06 or was it '07 reverse proof GAE? Just barely more common than the '08-w buff at 10,000 minted and the only reverse proof design gold coin yet offered by the mint. Look at what they're fetching...they're doing pretty well themselves!

Az Ag | 10-02-2009 04:50 PM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by hernancortes (Post 1950712) While we're talking 1-ounce moderns, how about the '06 or was it '07 reverse proof GAE? Just barely more common than the '08-w buff at 10,000 minted and the only reverse proof design gold coin yet offered by the mint. Look at what they're fetching...they're doing pretty well themselves!
I agree with the OP. The UHR is a beautiful coin, but for investment potential the 2008 Unc. W Buff is the coin to have when comparing the two. However, my own opinion is the 2006 Reverse Proof GAE will eclipse the Buff even though the mintage is slightly higher. As Mr H pointed out above, it is the only Reverse Proof issued by the mint todate. The high mintage of the UHR is just too big of an obstacle to overcome from an investment point of view. The UHR appears it is easily going to surpass 100,000 units. I have one of each of the coins in this post **. While I think the UHR is the most beautiful of the three, when the time comes, it will be the first of the three to go. ** If you are a thief, I do not keep these at home, they are kept safely elsewhere.

tekhen | 10-02-2009 10:00 PM
Re: let the debate begin... Quote:
Originally Posted by hernancortes (Post 1950712) While we're talking 1-ounce moderns, how about the '06 or was it '07 reverse proof GAE? Just barely more common than the '08-w buff at 10,000 minted and the only reverse proof design gold coin yet offered by the mint. Look at what they're fetching...they're doing pretty well themselves!
aww... UHR vs. '08-W Unc Buff vs. '06 RP GAE The RP... - Minted in Au, Ag and Pt(1/2oz) - The Au was minted as a 3-coin set (Unc, Proof & Reverse Proof) - Mintage of 10,000 I equate the RP to the UHR Both - one-year only mintage Both - IMO, two of the most beautiful Au coins (USofA) ever minted Now for the Buff... The U.S. Mint 'goofed' - "We're going to mint Burnished Buffs in fractional sizes" - "They will be available in the summer" - Price of PMs goes crazy - The Mint as a business is :thumpdown - Most products are suspended - The Buffs are minted for less than 6 months - The Mint cancels the fractional and Unc Buffs at the end of the year The ineptness of the Mint and the confusion that was caused has made the buffs an instant classic without trying to do so.

hernancortes | 10-02-2009 10:36 PM
Re: let the debate begin... Sub-20,000 mintage 1 oz. gold moderns: 1. 2008-W Unc. Buffalo- 9427 2. 2006-W Reverse Proof Eagle - 10,000 3. 2008-W Unc. Eagle.- 12,387 4. 2008 Proof Buffalo -19591 For context, the mint will turn out more than 1 million '09 1 oz. MS Eagles this year.

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