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- - Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=392148)

TheSkeptic | 07-18-2009 06:46 PM
Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? -begin rant- With the exception of one, every single 1oz coin I have looked at or bought during the last 3 months in our scrap gold business has been a counterfeit. (No problems at all with the many fractionals we have bought!) 1) Counterfeit 1916 Double Eagle. Two coin experts, neither one wanted to buy it because they both said that the mint mark seemed off. The coin was gold - acid told me that - and we were able to scrap it at 98%, no money lost. Still annoying. 2) Counterfeit Maple Leaf. I started a thread about this. Acid test told me not to buy this one and I passed. A competitor bought it and was mortified when I called them the next day and encouraged them to perform an acid test. 3) Today - several counterfeit "Philharmonic" 1oz coins. Had never even heard of these things before, but research confirms that they are 100 Euro, .999 fine gold coins. Acid tested at 18K but no higher. I damn near filed one of them in half to be sure I got a good sample. Decided to buy two of them as 18K gold and just assume the risk. Passed on the other 8 the guy had on him and 45 he claimed to have at home. The guy claimed to get them from his friend's "uncle." What do you know - 30 minutes later - two thugged out guys come along with some more of these beauties. One claims to get them from (guess) his uncle! Also claimed that his "uncle" gave him a gold bar that he got $50,000 for. If you're going to try to pass counterfeit 1 oz gold coins, don't tell crazy stories and don't dress like you just came from being an extra in a gangsta rap video. Are there any real 1oz coins out there? Jesus.... -end of rant-

CAVU | 07-18-2009 06:56 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Are there any real 1oz coins out there?
Sure, they just are not held by people that would sell to a scrap gold buyer.:biggrin:

TheSkeptic | 07-18-2009 06:59 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Haha... yes, you're probably right. We buy a lot of fractionals that are set in rings or pendants, but for the most part people don't bring big coins. So perhaps I'm just getting the burnt part of the steak. :111:

AGRO | 07-18-2009 07:26 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? TOOO - Funny- Skeptic BE CAREFUL out there. SORRY but any IDIOT, should know at least enough to NEVER sell a coin like that to a scraper..... No offense to you but... Let's get real here. Unless they are stolen coins to buy Heroin or crack they are fakes.:bandito::bandito::bandito: The last time I was at my local there was some thug type straight out of a rap video talking some sort of crap about how he had guess what? coins from his uncle!! & surprisingly Guess what? His cousin worked at a large " financial institute" and he had insider information that sooner ( this was 8 months ago) rather than later, the AMERO was going to be sweeping the nation by storm within 3 months! AND he had a CONNECTION:17092: for those too!!! :565: I could tell the dealer/owner had seen this sh!t one and a million times and actually gave the guy the satisfation of rambling on.

Twisted Avatar | 07-18-2009 07:28 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? The big run up cant be too far off . The suckers are starting to pour out the woodwork like the rats that they are. T

TheSkeptic | 07-18-2009 07:34 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by AGRO (Post 1824186) TOOO - Funny- Skeptic BE CAREFUL out there. SORRY but any IDIOT, should know at least enough to NEVER sell a coin like that to a scraper..... No offense to you but... Let's get real here. Unless they are stolen coins to buy Heroin or crack they are fakes. The last time I was at my local there was some thug type straight out of a rap video talking some sort of crap about how he had guess what? coins from his uncle!! & surprisingly Guess what? His cousin worked at a large " financial institute" and he had insider information that sooner ( this was 8 months ago) rather than later, the AMERO was going to be sweeping the nation by storm within 3 months! I could tell the dealer/owner had seen this sh!t one and a million times and actually gave the guy the satisfation of rambling on.
Too funny... We have bought some legitimate coins, but all fractionals or 1oz silver. Generally people who have claimed to have real 1oz gold stuff at home don't want to sell it for what I want to pay, and I don't hold it against them at all - my main thing is buying scrap, their main thing is gaining from an investment. No problem there. But I'm sure these two coins I bought won't turn up stolen - after all, they're counterfeit. But I guarantee you the guys that have been peddling these today aren't the ones that made them... they probably couldn't even counterfeit a sick note...

AGRO | 07-18-2009 07:37 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I think people are now starting to research and produce FAKE GOLD rather than counterfeit money. THink about it........ you are not passing a fake HUNDO at the local gas station, You are passing a fake coin or bar to someone who is going to pay you cash with no paper trail. Next time you get one of these, ask them for their # address, name , next of kin, and while your at it social security #, just to be "SAFE"

TheSkeptic | 07-18-2009 07:39 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I got a signature (fingerprints on paper :wink:) and color copy of their driver's license on the two I bought, even though I only bought them as 18K scrap. We do that on all sales anyway, unless we know the person. But yeah - I think counterfeiting gold coins is going to be a big deal.

fasTTcar | 07-18-2009 07:40 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? They should be easy enough to test via a scale.

AGRO | 07-18-2009 07:44 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Thus they have succeeded in their mission in selling fake gold for money for a profit. PLEASE when you melt it or have your refiner melt tell me what the outcome is. Could it be that an outer layer tests ok for 18k but inside is CuNi?

TheSkeptic | 07-18-2009 07:49 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by fasTTcar (Post 1824208) They should be easy enough to test via a scale.
Kind of a repeat of a post I made in another thread, but the weight was dead on - 31.1g or 20.00dwt. I ordered some digital calipers for each location, but I loaned them out today... if I'd had them here I could've measured the diameter. There is (conceivably) no way they could have gotten both the weight AND size right, though they could very easily get one of the two right. Quote:
Originally Posted by AGRO (Post 1824211) Thus they have succeeded in their mission in selling fake gold for money for a profit. PLEASE when you melt it or have your refiner melt tell me what the outcome is. Could it be that an outer layer tests ok for 18k but inside is CuNi?
I'm pretty confident they are solid 18K. They look like high karat gold, and the inside of the coin (I filed into one about 1/2") is consistent in color. Also, I don't think copper/nickel will hold under even the 10K testing acid, much less the 18K... could be wrong though. Maybe they've come up with some weird alloy that looks like high purity gold and holds up under acid. That's why I passed on the other 45 + 8. We're going to take them to a place around here that does some assaying, and see what they tell us. I'm pretty confident it is around .750 though.

TheSkeptic | 07-18-2009 08:54 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Just measured one with digital calipers... Correct width is 37mm. These are 37.02mm. Correct thickness is 2.0mm. These are 1.86mm. Very good fakes though. And I just had a THIRD guy bring another one. Jesus Christ...

clarkth | 07-18-2009 09:28 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1824324) Just measured one with digital calipers... Correct width is 37mm. These are 37.02mm. Correct thickness is 2.0mm. These are 1.86mm. Very good fakes though. And I just had a THIRD guy bring another one. Jesus Christ...
I'm I missing something. These are the correct weight, slightly wider, and slightly thinner. I would think they would have to be much thicker if the weight is right and diameter is close in order not to be gold coins. I don't have my charts in front of me but .02 mm might be within manufacturing tolerances.

goldfingerer | 07-18-2009 09:54 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Since I don't have the equipment to perform the necessary tests, I only buy gold that has been slabbed by PCGS, NGC or ANACS. This goes for modern bullion as well as the older stuff. It's an extra level of security and a bit easier to liquidate without any issues like your having.

melbo | 07-18-2009 10:08 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by goldfingerer (Post 1824402) Since I don't have the equipment to perform the necessary tests, I only buy gold that has been slabbed by PCGS, NGC or ANACS. This goes for modern bullion as well as the older stuff. It's an extra level of security and a bit easier to liquidate without any issues like your having.
<!-- / icon and title --> Which is exactly how I'd pass a counterfeit if that was my game... fake slabs. :565:

HistoryStudent | 07-18-2009 10:21 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by goldfingerer (Post 1824402) Since I don't have the equipment to perform the necessary tests, I only buy gold that has been slabbed by PCGS, NGC or ANACS. This goes for modern bullion as well as the older stuff. It's an extra level of security and a bit easier to liquidate without any issues like your having.
Yeah, buy them from HONG KONG too. :111::111: Just kidding.

morganchaser | 07-18-2009 10:53 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Sounds like the Canadian and Austrian governments would be interested in hearing from you/secret service?

mamboni | 07-18-2009 10:54 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1824324) Just measured one with digital calipers... Correct width is 37mm. These are 37.02mm. Correct thickness is 2.0mm. These are 1.86mm. Very good fakes though. And I just had a THIRD guy bring another one. Jesus Christ...
Any chance of posting some photos of those bogus phils? I own a few gold phils and your news here is causing be a wee bit of indigestion.:signs14: What did the bogus phils weigh?

Irons | 07-18-2009 11:01 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1824324) Just measured one with digital calipers... Correct width is 37mm. These are 37.02mm. Correct thickness is 2.0mm. These are 1.86mm. Very good fakes though. And I just had a THIRD guy bring another one. Jesus Christ...
That is a bitch the fakes are getting that close to real specs. This problem is only going to snowball as things get worse. I hope you have a really nasty hideout gun.:wink:

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 12:04 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1824454) Sounds like the Canadian and Austrian governments would be interested in hearing from you/secret service?
Yeah right - the last thing I want is any agency poking around in my business. :biggrin: Quote:
Originally Posted by melbo (Post 1824421) <!-- / icon and title --> Which is exactly how I'd pass a counterfeit if that was my game... fake slabs. :565:
Exactly. I don't give a damn what "certification" it has with it - if I can't weigh and measure it, I'm not buying it. Acid testing is what I prefer most, because acid never lies. I realize that many times, people won't want their coin rubbed on a block though, but measuring/weighing is still an option that is definitely worth the time. Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1824457) Any chance of posting some photos of those bogus phils? I own a few gold phils and your news here is causing be a wee bit of indigestion.:signs14: What did the bogus phils weigh?
My biz partner took the coin I didn't file with him. I'll post a photo of the one I filed into tomorrow morning. I looked at photos of real ones and I can't see any differences. See earlier posts - weight was exactly 1 ozt.

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 12:18 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Here is what we have been racking our brains trying to figure out: From all indications, these coins ARE gold, just not 24K. Most likely 18K. Yet, assuming they are 18K, cost per coin for the material is about $700. These guys were willing to sell 45 of them for $300 a piece. So, if they are 18K, and these guys would sell them at such a low number, it could only stand to reason that they were stolen, since if they were working with the counterfeiter, they would have been told not to let them go below $900 or so. Yet, it seems very unlikely that they stole a bunch of these from a counterfeiter. And it is just as unlikely that they were stolen from a collector. Would someone who had a ton of these coins have all fakes? Wouldn't someone spending that much money know exactly what they were buying? And these guys are definitely not the ones counterfeiting the coins... they have all the sophistication of a rock. Bringing the coins in 3 separate groups only hours apart. Giving ridiculous stories. Not giving a damn how much we offered as long as they could get cash today. And to be frank, they all looked like white trash. One of the guys in the first group was black and looked pretty ghetto... just being blunt here. This whole episode is just weird.

mamboni | 07-19-2009 12:32 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1824518) My biz partner took the coin I didn't file with him. I'll post a photo of the one I filed into tomorrow morning. I looked at photos of real ones and I can't see any differences. See earlier posts - weight was exactly 1 ozt.
Holy smokes! The coins are spot on perfect weight and diameter, and the thickness if off by only 7%, being slightly thinner. I'll wager that this fake would even fool a Fisch. We must find out the exact composition of the metal used. Such a coin could concievably circulate through reputable dealers and never be detected.

CoinHunter53562 | 07-19-2009 01:39 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1824558) Holy smokes! The coins are spot on perfect weight and diameter, and the thickness if off by only 7%, being slightly thinner. I'll wager that this fake would even fool a Fisch. We must find out the exact composition of the metal used. Such a coin could concievably circulate through reputable dealers and never be detected.
This has me a bit concerned as well. I only have one, obtained through a trade from a GIMer at the end of last year. I feel like I need to inspect mine. Not that I suspect anything from the member I traded with, but just for my own peace of mind. I certainly wouldn't want to trade this to someone else, or have it buy/sell through a regular dealer. So do you think a specific gravity test would be a good starting point?

mamboni | 07-19-2009 01:48 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by CoinHunter53562 (Post 1824640) This has me a bit concerned as well. I only have one, obtained through a trade from a GIMer at the end of last year. I feel like I need to inspect mine. Not that I suspect anything from the member I traded with, but just for my own piece of mind. I certainly wouldn't want to trade this to someone else, or have it buy/sell through a regular dealer. So do you think a specific gravity test would be a good starting point?
Yes - if only to confirm what seems inescapable: that the SG will measure out at or slightly higher (~7%) than that of pure gold. It's a simple matter of weight over volume, and the fakes appear near perfect in both regards.

WAoG | 07-19-2009 02:33 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1824543) Here is what we have been racking our brains trying to figure out: From all indications, these coins ARE gold, just not 24K. Most likely 18K. Yet, assuming they are 18K, cost per coin for the material is about $700. These guys were willing to sell 45 of them for $300 a piece. So, if they are 18K, and these guys would sell them at such a low number, it could only stand to reason that they were stolen, since if they were working with the counterfeiter, they would have been told not to let them go below $900 or so. Yet, it seems very unlikely that they stole a bunch of these from a counterfeiter. And it is just as unlikely that they were stolen from a collector. Would someone who had a ton of these coins have all fakes? Wouldn't someone spending that much money know exactly what they were buying? And these guys are definitely not the ones counterfeiting the coins... they have all the sophistication of a rock. Bringing the coins in 3 separate groups only hours apart. Giving ridiculous stories. Not giving a damn how much we offered as long as they could get cash today. And to be frank, they all looked like white trash. One of the guys in the first group was black and looked pretty ghetto... just being blunt here. This whole episode is just weird.
Be very carefull as something does not smell right!!

rodzm | 07-19-2009 04:30 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? The gangstas are known to be in on the PM game. Show me ya grill...Ill scrap it for some dough

Buyingsilvers | 07-19-2009 05:46 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? any way or connections to an "expert". Send a coin in and figure out what's going on? If you or they are willing to bite the bullet of the cost of the coin of course. This could be really big, and 99% of bullion buyers are probably not ready or haven't heard of anything like this. Weight/diameter test is usually "bulletproof" for gold coinage.

goldfingerer | 07-19-2009 06:14 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? It sounds to me like somebody is missing something. I mean think about it. Why on earth would counterfitters go to the trouble to make a gold coin with 18K instead of 24K and sell them for $300?? Even if the coins were stolen, I just don't see the point of making them in 18K. Why not 14K or gold plate? If the whole point is to scam someone, it seems like a pretty expensive way to do it. Something doesn't add up here. .

fasTTcar | 07-19-2009 08:39 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? The more I read this the more I think that the coins are real. My bet is they are stolen. The weight and dimensions are correct. Any material that would be as dense would be more expensive. If you are melting them anyway just cut one in half to assure yourself. If you really want to know, spend the $25 on an assay.

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 09:25 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 2 Attachment(s) My camera is absolute crap, but here are a couple of somewhat blurry shots. Couldn't use the flash because these things shine like gold when the light hits them! :biggrin: Measurements from the coin I didn't mutilate: Diameter: 37.02mm (I got 37.01mm the first time I measured) Thickness: 1.86mm Weight: 31.1g/20.00dwt This is obviously the one I filed into. Color is consistent throughout, with the exception of the spot where I dropped 22K acid directly onto the coin. Samples taken from inside the coin hold up indefinitely under 18K testing acid.

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- - Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=392148)

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 09:31 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Our next step is going to be having these assayed, which we plan to get started on Monday. Hope to hear something back within a week. If they are in fact gold, I guess we'll try to buy all the rest up at $300/ea. That will conceivably give us a hefty profit while at the same time getting these things out of circulation. It is not possible for them to be real. They fail a 22K acid test. A 24K coin (and even a 22K) should not show ANY reaction to that acid. It eats samples from this coin. Plus the thickness is off by enough to be more than a margin of error...

Metalophile | 07-19-2009 09:46 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Skeptic, Check to see if your camera has a "macro" function, usually a flower icon. That will allow you to focus on objects up close. Then you may be able to get a clear photo. As for thickness, if these are fakes, maybe they aren't struck with the same depth of relief as the real deal. Maybe that's why they measure too thin. Or maybe your calipers are out of calibration.

RealityCheck | 07-19-2009 09:46 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? This makes no sense at all. Why make replicas out of real gold when you can just sell the gold as scrap? I haven't heard about these fake coins anywhere else. I bet they are real. Just my two cents.

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 09:51 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? This is the only theory that makes sense to me at this point: Some sophisticated operation somewhere either stole a bunch of 24K gold and counterfeited 24K coins with an actual content of 18K, hoping to maximize their profit from the stolen merchandise. But since the content was "free" to them, they don't care how much the coins were sold for in the end. OR, Someone holding physical gold decided to work with or become a counterfeiter in order to make money and potentially buy even more gold. But in this scenario, I don't see them letting the holders let these coins go for $300 each. Quote:
Originally Posted by rodzm (Post 1824704) The gangstas are known to be in on the PM game. Show me ya grill...Ill scrap it for some dough
In addition to numerous single gold teeth, we have in fact scrapped a few "grills" :111:

RealityCheck | 07-19-2009 09:53 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Anyone remember the thread where the guy was claiming that some of the name brand silver rounds (A-mark and englehards) he bought from APMEX were impure based on the way they were melting and some assays that were done? It caused a big stir until APMEX had some sent out for assays and they were perfectly legit. edit: Also if those are fake coins they're felonies. Secret service may concievably get involved if they find out about them. I sure wouldn't buy them.

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 10:00 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 2 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalophile (Post 1824858) Skeptic, Check to see if your camera has a "macro" function, usually a flower icon. That will allow you to focus on objects up close. Then you may be able to get a clear photo. As for thickness, if these are fakes, maybe they aren't struck with the same depth of relief as the real deal. Maybe that's why they measure too thin. Or maybe your calipers are out of calibration.
Thanks, I always wondered what that was! Guess I should RTFM every now and then. :111: I was able to take a couple that may be slightly better, but without being able to use the flash, it's still difficult to get a very nice shot. I don't think the calipers are at fault; I used the same ones to measure diameter (which was only off by 0.01mm in the first test and 0.02mm in the second) and the thickness. It's no coincidence they were that close on the diameter... Quote:
Originally Posted by RealityCheck (Post 1824859) This makes no sense at all. Why make replicas out of real gold when you can just sell the gold as scrap? I haven't heard about these fake coins anywhere else. I bet they are real. Just my two cents.
Again, they cannot be real if they fail the acid test. It defies the laws of chemistry. Yes, there could theoretically be some problem with my acids or the block I was using. However, we use the same stuff all the time on real 24K and 22K stuff, and there is no reaction.

Publico, Pro Se | 07-19-2009 10:01 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Well, the best way to make a passable $10 bill is in the paper. I bleach out 100 $20 bills when I plan on running-off a thousand dollars of $10 bill. Problem is though is it's kinda hard to turn a profit.

TechGuy | 07-19-2009 10:03 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? My guess is that your testing chemicals are off. If someone was going to go through all the trouble, counterfeit gold, it certainly would not be with real gold, at real weights, and would not be for bullion only. IF they were going to go through all the trouble with real gold, they would go for something with numi value, not a phil.

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 10:09 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by RealityCheck (Post 1824863) edit: Also if those are fake coins they're felonies. Secret service may concievably get involved if they find out about them. I sure wouldn't buy them.
They may be felonies in Austria, but I'm not sure about here... they are not US legal tender. True, it is illegal to stamp something as .999 when it is not in fact 24K gold, but I don't think the SS is going to be stumbling all over themselves to investigate something petty like this. If it was a US coin, yeah, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.... Quote:
Originally Posted by TechGuy (Post 1824874) My guess is that your testing chemicals are off. If someone was going to go through all the trouble, counterfeit gold, it certainly would not be with real gold, at real weights, and would not be for bullion only. IF they were going to go through all the trouble with real gold, they would go for something with numi value, not a phil.
Because 24K is worth more than 18K. Case in point - the fake Maple Leaf a lady brought me recently. I offered $825 but turned it down when it failed an acid test. Place across the street bought it for probably the same price or higher, just because it looked right and the weight was close enough. They shit on themselves when I called about it and they did an acid test. It failed mine, it failed theirs. Yet even if it was 18K gold, someone still turned a profit out of it because it was puchased as 24K. Let's say the chemicals are off (they aren't :wink:). Do you think the difference in thickness (0.14mm) is within the mint's margin of error? And could a real 24K coin be off in thickness by 0.14mm yet still weigh EXACTLY 1 ozt?

TechGuy | 07-19-2009 10:15 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? The Austrian mint guarantees their purity and weight. Time to give them a call and ask what the tolerances are.

OutlawJoseyWalesJr | 07-19-2009 10:20 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1824879) They may be felonies in Austria, but I'm not sure about here... they are not US legal tender. True, it is illegal to stamp something as .999 when it is not in fact 24K gold, but I don't think the SS is going to be stumbling all over themselves to investigate something petty like this. If it was a US coin, yeah, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.... Because 24K is worth more than 18K. Case in point - the fake Maple Leaf a lady brought me recently. I offered $825 but turned it down when it failed an acid test. Place across the street bought it for probably the same price or higher, just because it looked right and the weight was close enough. They shit on themselves when I called about it and they did an acid test. It failed mine, it failed theirs. Yet even if it was 18K gold, someone still turned a profit out of it because it was puchased as 24K. Let's say the chemicals are off (they aren't :wink:). Do you think the difference in thickness (0.14mm) is within the mint's margin of error? And could a real 24K coin be off in thickness by 0.14mm yet still weigh EXACTLY 1 ozt?
I have never used acid and I do not work in the scrap gold business but I would think that the weight AND the dimensions would have to be right for it to be legit. There is a problem for a gold coin if: 1.) the weight is correct but the dimensions (diameter, thickness) are way off or 2.) the dimensions (diameter and thickness) are correct but the weight is way off I could be wrong on gold weight variance but for silver you can have a weight variance of +/- 0.5 grams based on my experience of handling old 1-oz silver art bars but for a gold coin or bar, that weight variance is much much smaller.

RealityCheck | 07-19-2009 10:23 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1824879) They may be felonies in Austria, but I'm not sure about here... they are not US legal tender.
http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/counterfeit "...Under its powers to define and punish offenses of international law and its powers to control interstate and foreign commerce, Congress has passed legislation against the counterfeiting of foreign money and securities within the United States. " "...To retain counterfeit money or government obligations knowingly is also a criminal offense, regardless of how possession was acquired."

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 10:31 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Hm... good thing we are not going to retain them. :111: First thing tomorrow they're going to be assayed.

Metalophile | 07-19-2009 11:03 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Only metal I know of which is significantly more dense than gold is platinum. Tungsten is slightly more dense than gold, but not dense enough to account for such a large difference in thickness.

AceNZ | 07-19-2009 11:13 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalophile (Post 1824923) Only metal I know of which is significantly more dense than gold is platinum. Tungsten is slightly more dense than gold, but not dense enough to account for such a large difference in thickness.
Density of gold = 19.300 gr/cc Density of tungsten = 19.250 gr/cc They are very close. In fact, tungsten is often used to forge gold coins. The main difficulty that it presents is that it's extremely high melting point means that it's difficult to form into shapes -- so they insert a tungsten disc in the middle of the coin or bar, and surround it with real gold.

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 11:16 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Great info guys. A lot of the class rings are now being made of tungsten though, right? I have noticed that some metals, like stainless steel, and I believe tungsten, will not melt under 22K acid. So if I'm correct and tungsten won't melt, then they aren't tungsten... My partner just called me. Some guys just brought some of these coins to a tent event we have going in a city about 30 minutes away from the location where they hit us up 3 times last night. At this point, I don't even expect anyone to believe me anymore. This is getting crazy. These things must be flooding the area...

AceNZ | 07-19-2009 11:18 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalophile (Post 1824923) Only metal I know of which is significantly more dense than gold is platinum. Tungsten is slightly more dense than gold, but not dense enough to account for such a large difference in thickness.
Density of gold = 19.30 gr/cc Density of tungsten = 19.25 gr/cc They are very close. In fact, tungsten is often used to forge gold coins. The main difficulty that it presents is that it's extremely high melting point means that it's difficult to form into shapes -- so they insert a tungsten disc in the middle of the coin or bar, and surround it with real gold. Non-radioactive metals more dense than gold or tungsten include: Osmium = 22.61 gr/cc Iridium = 22.56 Platinum = 21.4 Rhenium = 21.0

Metalophile | 07-19-2009 11:27 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? The site I was looking at may be wrong about tungsten: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/me...ties-d_50.html It lists gold at 19,320 kg/m^3 and tungsten at 19,600 kg/m^3. Wikipedia has tungsten slightly less dense than gold. Only other metal close is depleted Uranium. Got Geiger??

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 11:29 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by AceNZ (Post 1824936) Non-radioactive metals more dense than gold or tungsten include: Osmium = 22.61 gr/cc Iridium = 22.56 Platinum = 21.4 Rhenium = 21.0
But could any of these metals be alloyed to turn them to a gold color and still maintain such a high density?

mamboni | 07-19-2009 11:59 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1824870) Thanks, I always wondered what that was! Guess I should RTFM every now and then. :111: I was able to take a couple that may be slightly better, but without being able to use the flash, it's still difficult to get a very nice shot. I don't think the calipers are at fault; I used the same ones to measure diameter (which was only off by 0.01mm in the first test and 0.02mm in the second) and the thickness. It's no coincidence they were that close on the diameter... Again, they cannot be real if they fail the acid test. It defies the laws of chemistry. Yes, there could theoretically be some problem with my acids or the block I was using. However, we use the same stuff all the time on real 24K and 22K stuff, and there is no reaction.
That coin looks perfect - I'm comparing it to a 1991 Phil which I keep on my desk. My coin is deonominated in Shillings and the rim is very thin. Your coin has a wider rim. I'm too lazy to pull out my newer Euro Phils to see if the rim style is the same as your photo. If that is a fake, it's a damn near perfect one! Please let us know what the metal analysis turns up. As the perp said in Dirty Harry: "Hey man! I's gotz t'know!":biggrin: P.S. Is the cut surface of your coin also gold colored?

CAVU | 07-19-2009 11:59 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? As someone else wrote, they sound stolen. A counterfeit that good would command more money than the sellers accepting only 300. Stolen goods are always priced extremely low to move them quickly for cash. As for the acid test, dont know about that one. In science a person could take a known 24K, 22k and 18k and perform the tests on them as a control. Then immediately perform the acid test on the subject coin. This should lay to rest if there is something wrong with the acid that is being used.

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 12:27 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Stolen gold coins - happens all the time. Stolen counterfeits? A little more out there. But about the only thing that makes sense in this case, unless the raw gold being used to make the counterfeits was stolen. In that case, their cost per coin is virtually zero, though they can get conceivably get a 24K price, without the suspicion of selling the bullion in whatever form it may have been in when stolen.

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 12:28 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1824978) P.S. Is the cut surface of your coin also gold colored?
Do you mean the part I filed into? If so, yes, it is the same color as the exterior. That is the primary reason I bought two of them.

slabertooch | 07-19-2009 12:40 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? they say to have 45 more of these, sounds like a scam. Some hick bring in some [b]real[b] coins and they take a bit of a loss, then they get the buyer convinced that he has a great deal (those guys sure are stupid taking a loss on these coins) and then they offload the rest on him without a second look, only these ones are the fakes. Don't judge a book by its cover, way too many con men have used it to their advantage.

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 01:01 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I have thought about that, but there's a pretty easy way to avoid that ripoff - just weigh and measure each individual coin. If we get the first two assayed and they come back as 18K or something like that, then we'll know that as long as all the other coins have the same weight/size, that's what they have to be, as well. Or, we could just spot check - file into and acid test random coins.

Willie Peter | 07-19-2009 01:10 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by goldfingerer (Post 1824730) It sounds to me like somebody is missing something. I mean think about it. Why on earth would counterfitters go to the trouble to make a gold coin with 18K instead of 24K and sell them for $300?? Even if the coins were stolen, I just don't see the point of making them in 18K. Why not 14K or gold plate? If the whole point is to scam someone, it seems like a pretty expensive way to do it. Something doesn't add up here. .
Doesn't make sense to me either, at current spot price, if someone were to make a counterfeit 1 oz gold Phil out of 18 Karat gold, it'd cost 'em $702.53, and then to pass it for an authenic 1 oz Gold Phil? there's only a $235.40 difference, counterfeiters aren't stupid people, criminal yes, but not stupid, I'd never think they'd use real gold to counterfeit another gold coin, and I'm not sure, but the other metals mentioned, that are close to gold, are hard to work with, hard to obtain, and I don't think they'd only make a hand full, they'd run off a lot to make it worth their while, and I think we would have heard something about it by now, I'm not saying it'd be impossible, but if everything is correct the OP has stated, I'd go with faulty test equipment....

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 01:15 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I repeat: Quote:
Let's say the chemicals are off (they aren't :wink:). Do you think the difference in thickness (0.14mm) is within the mint's margin of error? And could a real 24K coin be off in thickness by 0.14mm yet still weigh EXACTLY 1 ozt?
I'm telling you, we use these acids day in and day out, they aren't wrong. :biggrin:

SWRichmond | 07-19-2009 05:00 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? You suspect / believe these are counterfeit and you're still considering continuing to do business with their purveyors? Why would you do that? Especially when the title of your thread is "Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?" Have I misread this thread and your intentions?

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 05:04 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by SWRichmond (Post 1825321) You suspect / believe these are counterfeit and you're still considering continuing to do business with their purveyors? Why would you do that? Especially when the title of your thread is "Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?" Have I misread this thread and your intentions?
LOL - that is a good question. It is annoying to be brought counterfeit coins. However, if the content of the coins is in fact gold, and especially if it is something like .750 fine, then I will buy the coins for next to nothing and turn a very healthy profit. We are not investing any more money into these things before we get the results of an assay on the first two. Then we can compare weight/size of the others and know if we are buying the exact same thing. And by doing this, we take these coins "off the market", and they'll never be passed anywhere else, just melted.

SWRichmond | 07-19-2009 05:22 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1825328) LOL - that is a good question. It is annoying to be brought counterfeit coins. However, if the content of the coins is in fact gold, and especially if it is something like .750 fine, then I will buy the coins for next to nothing and turn a very healthy profit. We are not investing any more money into these things before we get the results of an assay on the first two. Then we can compare weight/size of the others and know if we are buying the exact same thing. And by doing this, we take these coins "off the market", and they'll never be passed anywhere else, just melted.
Excuse me, but you are creating a market for counterfeit goods, thereby increasing demand for them and likely encouraging said counterfeiting activity. Seems to me that you are motivated by greed and looking to excuse it with rationalization. "...turn a very healthy profit" A more responsible response would have been to say "these coins are counterfeit, you have been ripped off, where did you get them? You really should report this to whomever are the appropriate authorities for the transaction." Then you could also notify your trade group and warn them, helping to completely shut off the market for these dangerous fakes.

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- - Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=392148)

Bob | 07-19-2009 05:39 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? It's pretty obvious to me at this point that these are more likely stolen. They aren't fake. As someone else mentioned earlier, this reminds me of the APMEX silver thread. I believe you can get some decent variation of the thickness of the coin depending on how it's struck (more indentation or less). Just measure the density of the coin (which may be easier said than done), that will tell you for certain. No one fakes a coin with a higher density than gold. Seriously, how much sense does that make. The hardest point about faking a coin is to get the dimensions right (aside from the billions you're going to have to invest in tooling to get something as close as what this appears to be) and someone is going to make something more dense rather than toss a few cents of silver or copper in to get the density perfect? Get the assay test done and it's going to come back 24ct. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1825049) I repeat: Let's say the chemicals are off (they aren't ). Do you think the difference in thickness (0.14mm) is within the mint's margin of error? And could a real 24K coin be off in thickness by 0.14mm yet still weigh EXACTLY 1 ozt? I'm telling you, we use these acids day in and day out, they aren't wrong. :biggrin:

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 05:45 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I've already called a few dealers, and everyone knows about this now anyway. These guys have been burning it up, taking these coins everywhere. And their appearance doesn't exactly put anyone at ease. You're missing the simple economics of this picture: we will not buy any more of the coins unless they are in fact gold. if the coins do contain gold of some fineness, we will pay far less than the melt value of that material, thus creating a LOSS for the counterfeiter the counterfeiter will not continue to make these coins if he takes a loss And frankly, I'd be doing collectors like you a favor. One poster stated that this coin would likely have passed a Fisch tester - what if it would've? What if these coins ended up on shelves? If I buy them all, they'll get melted and the maker will lose his money and pursue something else. Get off your high horse.

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 05:49 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1825372) It's pretty obvious to me at this point that these are more likely stolen. They aren't fake. As someone else mentioned earlier, this reminds me of the APMEX silver thread. I believe you can get some decent variation of the thickness of the coin depending on how it's struck (more indentation or less). Just measure the density of the coin (which may be easier said than done), that will tell you for certain. No one fakes a coin with a higher density than gold. Seriously, how much sense does that make. The hardest point about faking a coin is to get the dimensions right (aside from the billions you're going to have to invest in tooling to get something as close as what this appears to be) and someone is going to make something more dense rather than toss a few cents of silver or copper in to get the density perfect? Get the assay test done and it's going to come back 24ct.
Thanks for your post. Again, 22K acid will not melt fine gold, or even .9167. There should be zero reaction. We use this acid test daily with accurate results. And when I have used acid against known quantities (fractionals and PAMP bars), the acid does not do anything at all to the sample. It shouldn't. However, I am certainly interested in the results of the assay. Question for you and others in the know - when coin books or websites give thickness specs, are they talking about thickness from the very highest point, or, the thickness of the flat areas on which there is no indentation?

BullionVince | 07-19-2009 05:52 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? God help us all if these hit ebay.... I could make a killing if I were these guys. You would get FULL MARKET PRICE for those. Maybe they are testing to see just how good their fakes look under serious scrutiny? If they can get it past scrappers they sure as hell can get it past John Q. Public.

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 06:04 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by j-son (Post 1825402) highest point on the coin is what the thickness measurements are from.
Hm... I will re-measure tonight then, and post a picture if I get a different result. These coins do not have a very high relief at all though.

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 06:05 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by BullionVince (Post 1825395) God help us all if these hit ebay.... I could make a killing if I were these guys. You would get FULL MARKET PRICE for those. Maybe they are testing to see just how good their fakes look under serious scrutiny? If they can get it past scrappers they sure as hell can get it past John Q. Public.
That is certainly a viable theory, but you would have to see these people... very trashy, redneck, suspicious looking. Not sophisticated in the least bit.

j-son | 07-19-2009 06:13 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? i dont think he was worried about the thugs listing on ebay...more likely the burned dealers not knowing how to recoup their money on their faulty purchase...they might be enticed for ebay.

Willie Peter | 07-19-2009 06:53 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I'd think the best way to verify a coin (Au) is by the known dimensions, if a counterfeit Au coin was plated in 24k, wouldn't it test positive with 24k acid?

Fermentation | 07-19-2009 07:13 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? This whole business seems trashy to me, and after reading your post, sorry, but so do you. Seems like you're some half-got it together person taking advantage of the recent price spikes in gold, and you don't know what the hell you're doing. probably real gold and you lack the tools and sophistication to tell. You seem like one of those slimy pawn shop owners or bail bondsman to me. i think thread is beneath Gold is money, but recently, actually this post fits in fine with the product we're delivering. When will the old Gold id money return with serious analysis on the market and serious commentary?

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 07:40 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Peter (Post 1825453) I'd think the best way to verify a coin (Au) is by the known dimensions, if a counterfeit Au coin was plated in 24k, wouldn't it test positive with 24k acid?
Depends on the thickness of the plating and the strength with which you bear down on the piece when you're "scratching" a sample onto the testing surface. That was why I filed so far into the coin, so I could get a sample from well inside it. So the sample I took was definitely past any plating, no matter how thick. This is why I am confident the coins are gold, just definitely not 24K.

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 07:43 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Fermentation (Post 1825479) This whole business seems trashy to me, and after reading your post, sorry, but so do you. Seems like you're some half-got it together person taking advantage of the recent price spikes in gold, and you don't know what the hell you're doing. probably real gold and you lack the tools and sophistication to tell. You seem like one of those slimy pawn shop owners or bail bondsman to me. i think thread is beneath Gold is money, but recently, actually this post fits in fine with the product we're delivering. When will the old Gold id money return with serious analysis on the market and serious commentary?
Do those who have taken the time to post thoughtful, sensible comments here some favors: use proper grammar spell check actually read all posts of a thread before you jump in and make a complete ass of yourself, so you can get the facts (if those interest you) don't use a poorly worded, childlike, ridiculous post with no factual basis as a vehicle in which to lament how bad GIM has gotten And by the way, dumbass, I have repeatedly said that I DO think they are gold. That is why I bought two of them. RTFP. Thanks.

Jaxon | 07-19-2009 08:23 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Have you had a chance to calculate the density of the coins? I'm curious to know if it would support the results of the acid.

Ag_man | 07-19-2009 08:32 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Skeptic, what kind of assay are you getting, spectrographic, or a wet assay?

Willie Peter | 07-19-2009 08:37 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1825511) Depends on the thickness of the plating and the strength with which you bear down on the piece when you're "scratching" a sample onto the testing surface. That was why I filed so far into the coin, so I could get a sample from well inside it. So the sample I took was definitely past any plating, no matter how thick. This is why I am confident the coins are gold, just definitely not 24K.
It'll be interesting to know the outcome, report back and tell us, it's hard for me to beleive that someone would go to the expense,time and risk to counterfeit a 24K coin with 18k or some lesser percentage of gold

Atahualpa | 07-19-2009 08:43 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Hey Skeptic, did you ever get around to checking out that video with the specific gravity scale? If you could check specific gravity along with weight and dimensions, I don't think anybody ever could fool you with any metals.

oboshoe | 07-19-2009 09:01 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Fermentation (Post 1825479) This whole business seems trashy to me, and after reading your post, sorry, but so do you. Seems like you're some half-got it together person taking advantage of the recent price spikes in gold, and you don't know what the hell you're doing. probably real gold and you lack the tools and sophistication to tell. You seem like one of those slimy pawn shop owners or bail bondsman to me. i think thread is beneath Gold is money, but recently, actually this post fits in fine with the product we're delivering. When will the old Gold id money return with serious analysis on the market and serious commentary?
Agree. This thread is really tipping off my BS meter.

AndreaGail | 07-19-2009 09:04 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? this wouldn't be GIM without a conspiracy maybe this is a gov official who is deliberately making us think twice about buying pm's :dontknow::biggrin:

Thin Shadow | 07-19-2009 09:35 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaGail (Post 1825633) this wouldn't be GIM without a conspiracy maybe this is a gov official who is deliberately making us think twice about buying pm's :dontknow::biggrin:
I was just getting ready to post the following when I read your comment: Suppose that the Treasury Department and its enforcement arm is well aware of the many fake US coins (both silver and gold) that are making an increasing appearance in the market. Now, suppose that they are doing nothing to prosecute the importers and sellers because TPTB want to cause as much consternation as possible among collecters and other holders of PMs. If that supposition has any validity it is because ZOG takes a dim view of people looking out for themselves. They need us a lot worse than we need them.

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 10:24 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaGail (Post 1825633) this wouldn't be GIM without a conspiracy maybe this is a gov official who is deliberately making us think twice about buying pm's :dontknow::biggrin:
:111: Guys, I started a thread here which approaches 10 pages, advocating that people buy as many PMs as they can in the form of scrap, which they can then have refined - the end effect is that people can stock up on PMs way cheaper than they could just buying bullion straight out. oboshoe, Counterfeits exist. Good ones. It sucks and I don't like it any more than the next guy. Accept the reality. Will catch up on the rest tomorrow.

oboshoe | 07-19-2009 10:50 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1825732) :111: oboshoe, Counterfeits exist. Good ones. It sucks and I don't like it any more than the next guy. Accept the reality. .
Yes. Lets talk reality. In what reality does a counterfeiter: A) Spend thousands to precisely duplicate a gold coin B) Use *REAL* Gold C) Risk Secret Service attention by counterfeiting foreign currency D) Under Carat said coins by reducing gold content by a mere 1/4 E) Sell coins for less than 1/2 of melt value What criminals would be so clever to ingeniously design, counterfeit and produce these coins, yet so stupid that they don't know they are losing 75% of each and every sale? Two possible conclusions: 1) They are real and stolen 2) We are being trolled.

mamboni | 07-19-2009 10:55 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by oboshoe (Post 1825770) Yes. Lets talk reality. In what reality does a counterfeiter: A) Spend thousands to precisely duplicate a gold coin B) Use *REAL* Gold C) Risk Secret Service attention by counterfeiting foreign currency D) Under Carat said coins by reducing gold content by a mere 1/4 E) Sell coins for less than 1/2 of melt value What criminals would be so clever to ingeniously design, counterfeit and produce these coins, yet so stupid that they don't know they are losing 75% of each and every sale? Two possible conclusions: 1) They are real and stolen 2) We are being trolled.
You make a compelling and irrefutable case. So, I must ask: if the OP is trolling, to what end?

oboshoe | 07-19-2009 11:08 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? The third possibility is that the OP is being setup for a scam or crime of a larger nature. They already have him thinking of completing a larger transaction. The old adage "You can't cheat an honest man" applies here. Quote: "That will conceivably give us a hefty profit while at the same time getting these things out of circulation." The OP is seeing dollar signs, and is rationalizing that he will be helping us all by taking from either incredibly moronic counterfeiters, or outright thieves. Heck all he has to do is cheat those silly counterfeiters, make a bundle and then collect the good citizen of the year award! What could go wrong? Conmen *THRIVE* on this kind of thinking from their victims. If its just trolling? Well..trolls troll because trolling is what they do.

SLV>GLD | 07-19-2009 11:15 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? In what reality does 24k gold get eaten by 22k test acid?

Atahualpa | 07-19-2009 11:19 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by oboshoe (Post 1825797) The third possibility is that the OP is being setup for a scam or crime of a larger nature. They already have him thinking of completing a larger transaction. The old adage "You can't cheat an honest man" applies here. Quote: "That will conceivably give us a hefty profit while at the same time getting these things out of circulation." The OP is seeing dollar signs, and is rationalizing that he will be helping us all by taking from either incredibly moronic counterfeiters, or outright thieves. Heck all he has to do is cheat those silly counterfeiters, make a bundle and then collect the good citizen of the year award! What could go wrong? Conmen *THRIVE* on this kind of thinking from their victims. If its just trolling? Well..trolls troll because trolling is what they do.
Yeah, all this angst and confusion over the legitimacy of some meth heads coins is kinda strange. :biggrin: If they test as gold and the dimensions are correct (of course it could made 100% with the addition of a specific gravity test), what it really comes down to is the rationalizing of buying stolen goods.

oboshoe | 07-19-2009 11:23 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by slabertooch (Post 1825015) they say to have 45 more of these, sounds like a scam. Some hick bring in some [b]real[b] coins and they take a bit of a loss, then they get the buyer convinced that he has a great deal (those guys sure are stupid taking a loss on these coins) and then they offload the rest on him without a second look, only these ones are the fakes. Don't judge a book by its cover, way too many con men have used it to their advantage.
Or the other 45 don't exist. But you show up to the deal with $45k and get a crowbar to the back of the head.

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 11:26 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1825604) Hey Skeptic, did you ever get around to checking out that video with the specific gravity scale? If you could check specific gravity along with weight and dimensions, I don't think anybody ever could fool you with any metals.
I did look into some specific gravity addons for scales, but never really pursued it. With 99% of the stuff we buy, there is very little if any question, so I didn't want add more equipment. It is probably something I am going to continue looking into, but maybe just get for our office on occasions like this, instead of having the kits everywhere we're buying gold. Quote:
Originally Posted by Ag_man (Post 1825575) Skeptic, what kind of assay are you getting, spectrographic, or a wet assay?
I am going to ask for a fire assay. Quote:
Originally Posted by oboshoe (Post 1825770) Yes. Lets talk reality. In what reality does a counterfeiter: A) Spend thousands to precisely duplicate a gold coin B) Use *REAL* Gold C) Risk Secret Service attention by counterfeiting foreign currency D) Under Carat said coins by reducing gold content by a mere 1/4 E) Sell coins for less than 1/2 of melt value What criminals would be so clever to ingeniously design, counterfeit and produce these coins, yet so stupid that they don't know they are losing 75% of each and every sale? Two possible conclusions: 1) They are real and stolen 2) We are being trolled.
This is an overly simplistic analysis. A) Does this not happen every day? B) I bought a double eagle and took it to two coin experts (they had PCGS certificates, anyway). Both said that the content of the coin was in fact .9167, but the coin itself was counterfeit. Had it been real, it would've had decent numi value. C) Um, as opposed to 10x more intense SS attention by counterfeiting US currency? D) A "mere" 1/4? Let's say they only produced 500 coins. At current spot, that's about a different of $115,000. Or let's go with half that.$57,500. Perhaps I should be honored by your presence in this thread, but please, do me the simple courtesy of reading all the posts (can we change the definition of "troll" to: jackass who inserts his opinion without actually reading very much of the thread first?). I have openly stated how little sense this makes, but I can tell you one thing for certain - acid does not lie. Of course, I guess I'm just making up the results of the acid test, since I am a government shill who has otherwise spent most of my posts talking about the scrap gold business, and encouraging people to buy twice as much gold for half as much money. Since you're too good (or, perhaps, just too lazy) to read earlier posts, let me recap the OTHER possibilities: the coins are in fact counterfeit, but were stolen from the counterfeiter these people are selling for the counterfeiter, but they don't care about margins because the bullion used to make the coins was stolen the coins were stolen from a collector who thought they were real (very possible) the counterfeiter fully intended to sell the coins at full spot value, but after realizing that people were catching them, decided to cut their losses and get what he could for them There are probably more possibilities, but those alone are enough. And since you agree with the poster who so eloquently made a case for why I am conning you guys, what do you think I am making up? the circumference? the thickness? the weight? the CLEAR and ABSOLUTE results of the acid test? the physical characteristics and appearance of the coin? Some of you are so paranoid and desperate to believe in conspiracies that you make yourself look like fools. Now, because someone posts something you don't agree with, don't like, or don't understand, they are on the government's payroll. Grow the f*ck up. Oh, and bitch about my logic all you want - but let's see what you say if one of these showed up at your local coin dealer. Hypocrite. I would not be buying them to do anyone a favor, but I mostly certainly would accomplish that...

TheSkeptic | 07-19-2009 11:28 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1825807) Yeah, all this angst and confusion over the legitimacy of some meth heads coins is kinda strange. :biggrin:
I think it's a little more than that, you know this. :biggrin: Imagine how far the level of sophistication could go as gold becomes even more popular. Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1825807) If they test as gold and the dimensions are correct (of course it could made 100% with the addition of a specific gravity test), what it really comes down to is the rationalizing of buying stolen goods.
Testing as gold is an entirely different ballgame than testing as 24K gold. :wink: Personally I think that the fact the thickness is off is telling. But I will definitely post the results of the assay...

jedemdasseine | 07-19-2009 11:55 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Ag_man (Post 1825575) Skeptic, what kind of assay are you getting, spectrographic, or a wet assay?
Bump. Are you just assaying or also selling to the refiner? I don't know how you're going about this process, but if need be, make note for the refiner not to admix the suspect gold with any other 10k or 14k gold. Please post your assay results when you receive them. This entire matter is most curious and somewhat bizarre. And correct me if I'm wrong, but you've encountered both counterfeit Phils and Maples?

jedemdasseine | 07-19-2009 11:56 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? If it's 24 karat, you should be able to easily scratch it.

esoteric | 07-20-2009 01:59 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? just hurry up and stop arguing.....post the end result, what did the assay say?

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- - Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=392148)

Matt-themaddog-Dollar | 07-20-2009 02:19 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Mail one of the counterfeits to Numismatic News so they can investigate and run a story on it. http://www.numismaticnews.net/contact/

morganchaser | 07-20-2009 04:24 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I agree with the poster that it's hard to believe these guys would knowingly sell at a loss. If the thickness is off: I have to wonder how much gold shell there is on that tungsten/lead slug you bought? You do this for a living, so it seems like you aren't likely to be naive on this, but I'm wondering if they couldn't have pulled a fast one by exploiting an assumption you may have made. IE: slugs can be a little bit star shaped, so if you cut in to a corner, your odds of finding the true ammount of slug is reduced. I don't know if the secret service pays a bounty or not: but they may just be selling to you at a loss, just to turn you in to the SS. It could have been arranged by the secret service as entrapment. Bitter customer. Ect. The specific gravity scale sounds like a worthwhile investment. Local manufacturing companies try to shoot for a 6 month time frame for an investment in productivity to pay for itself. That's really a business/individual preference specific variable though.

Texan | 07-20-2009 04:33 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Isn't it too early to have an assay performed? In your other thread you mentioned "in our state, we have to hold the gold 30 days before doing anything with it." Can you be more specific on the terms of that law? Maybe these counterfeit Philharmonics and Maple Leaves, if they indeed exist, are the new incarnation of the gold missing from the Royal Canadian Mint.

morganchaser | 07-20-2009 04:46 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1825372) It's pretty obvious to me at this point that these are more likely stolen. They aren't fake. As someone else mentioned earlier, this reminds me of the APMEX silver thread. I believe you can get some decent variation of the thickness of the coin depending on how it's struck (more indentation or less). Just measure the density of the coin (which may be easier said than done), that will tell you for certain. No one fakes a coin with a higher density than gold. Seriously, how much sense does that make. The hardest point about faking a coin is to get the dimensions right (aside from the billions you're going to have to invest in tooling to get something as close as what this appears to be) and someone is going to make something more dense rather than toss a few cents of silver or copper in to get the density perfect? Get the assay test done and it's going to come back 24ct.
Doubt it would take billions. They don't necessarily have to reverse engineer the surface and CNC EDM/mill a striking die from tool steel with small ball mills. ^ Expensive equipment intensive(however there are plenty of machine shops that are hurting for jobs right now/employees with access to their tools)

numismatation | 07-20-2009 05:31 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? HI, OK here is a a simple Brain dump. If the coin is thinner and same diameter, then the metal is denser than gold. Doesn't sound right. If it is thinner and 750 pure, then is should weigh less. The only way this would work, is to alloy a denser metal with gold. This would make it thinner but weight the same. Acids could have gone bad. What type of acid are you using. I'm assuming nitirc acid. Nitric shouldn't disolve the gold, but the other base metals in the mix. Not sure about it disolving other noble metals except silver. I know that HCL plus tin makes stannous chloride. This will tell you if it is actuall gold. The problem that you need to disolve a little of the metal, then add the solution above. Also if the coin is pure (99.9%), a drop of HCL will not create green or blue looking acid. Any color change of the acid to green/blue is an indication of a non-pure metal. If it's pure, a drop of HCL should stay clear. You can try new set of acids? Maybe the acids have been concentrated (evaporation, etc) and are stronger that usual. Thus disolving a higher purity metal? I'm assuming you hit it with a magnet? Take a high def picture of the coin. Get another one from well known online sources. Use photoshop to overlay the images, and check for differences. Other than that, you are left with an assay. Good luck and keep us informed

OrangeJuice | 07-20-2009 06:16 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? It just doesn't match. If they are thinner than the official specifications, the same diameter, and still weight troy 1oz, it can't be a fake 18 carat gold. 1) The thickness specification is imprecise, because it depends where you mesure it, the field is uneven on a coin because of the relief caused by striking it. 2) If it was 18K gold, and still weight 1 troy oz and mesure 37 mm, it would need to be thicker, not thinner, in order to be still 37 mm and 1 oz. So the typically 18K yellow gold alloy contains 18 parts of gold and 6 parts of copper, it will need to be 2.65mm to still be 37.0 mm and 1 troy oz. For other alloy, it varies, but its similar (silver/gold alloy makes it 2.26mm, and there's not a lot of things heavier than silver to make a 18K alloy) 3) The surface of the coin can contain impurities (somewhat common, see with 'red spots' maples), and an acid test could be inaccurate. The .9999 specifications for coins refer to the material under the surface. My assessment: This is a real, but stolen, 24 carat gold coin. Your acid tests are misleading. Another thing you can see: try scratching it, and see how easy it is compared to other 18k gold. It should be much softer

numismatation | 07-20-2009 06:23 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Occams Razor, maybe there is a mistake in one of the assumptions? Misscalculation? incorrect input? How can it be possible for multiple people at multiple locations to start introducing gold coins that are thinner than the actual coin, weigh the same, but be of 18ct gold. Too many Statistical outliners needed to make it plausible. Not saying your lying, but something in the data is wrong, skewing the results.

TheSkeptic | 07-20-2009 09:54 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by jedemdasseine (Post 1825865) Bump. Are you just assaying or also selling to the refiner? I don't know how you're going about this process, but if need be, make note for the refiner not to admix the suspect gold with any other 10k or 14k gold. Please post your assay results when you receive them. This entire matter is most curious and somewhat bizarre. And correct me if I'm wrong, but you've encountered both counterfeit Phils and Maples?
Yes, before we sell either one, we are having one of them assayed separately. Though I was thinking about it, and I guess a fire assay would not be very practical for just one piece. I will leave the method up to them. On the Maple I was talking about, I did not take any measurements. I can remember that it seemed much thicker than this coin, though. I did not follow up any further with the guys that ended up buying it, but when he saw the results of his acid test were the same as mine, he freaked out. 24K gold will simply not melt under that acid. It won't even discolor. People have asked if the acid could be weak or be stale, however, my understanding (could be wrong) is that none of the acids can even melt .999. Also, stale or mixed acid results in a less powerful reaction (ie., 10K appears to be 14K), not the other way around. Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1826057) I agree with the poster that it's hard to believe these guys would knowingly sell at a loss.
I agree, and this is what I've been going crazy trying to figure out. Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1826057) If the thickness is off: I have to wonder how much gold shell there is on that tungsten/lead slug you bought?
:biggrin: Hopefully not so much that we can't recoup a little real gold out of this thing? Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1826057) You do this for a living, so it seems like you aren't likely to be naive on this, but I'm wondering if they couldn't have pulled a fast one by exploiting an assumption you may have made. IE: slugs can be a little bit star shaped, so if you cut in to a corner, your odds of finding the true ammount of slug is reduced.
I think you have a very valid point. I actually wanted to file the first coin right in half, but didn't take the time to do it. The guys we are taking it to have a lot of tools for things like this, so that is going to be a first step. I definitely want to see what's in the dead center even before it goes to be assayed. Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1826057) I don't know if the secret service pays a bounty or not: but they may just be selling to you at a loss, just to turn you in to the SS. It could have been arranged by the secret service as entrapment. Bitter customer. Ect.
Turn us into SS for what? We have advised everyone (4 separate groups now) that the coins are counterfeit and that we are not buying them as coins, and that they would be destroyed. Yesterday, I even got a phone call to the number on our business cards about these, and I advised the person that they had counterfeit European currency, and that it would be a crime for her to try to pass them as real coins to any buyer. Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1826057) The specific gravity scale sounds like a worthwhile investment. Local manufacturing companies try to shoot for a 6 month time frame for an investment in productivity to pay for itself. That's really a business/individual preference specific variable though.
It isn't expensive to get the kit, that is not really my issue. It is just that we already have a lot of ways to test, and this is basically the first time we've ever wanted to assay anything specific. For 99% of our transactions, the added equipment/space/time/etc wouldn't be practical. Like I said, if we open an office, I would probably put one in there. But between the tents and the two mall spots (about to be 3), on any given day we are often buying gold at 5 or 6 locations. Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan (Post 1826058) Isn't it too early to have an assay performed? In your other thread you mentioned "in our state, we have to hold the gold 30 days before doing anything with it." Can you be more specific on the terms of that law?
So long as we can get the coin back after an assay, I am not really breaking the law, though I can't be honest and say that the police would like us losing custody of the piece even temporarily. Quote:
Maybe these counterfeit Philharmonics and Maple Leaves, if they indeed exist, are the new incarnation of the gold missing from the Royal Canadian Mint.
Yes, one of the only scenarios that makes sense if they are counterfeit (of which I am 99% certain) is that the bullion used to make them was stolen. Quote:
Originally Posted by numismatation (Post 1826079) OK here is a a simple Brain dump. If the coin is thinner and same diameter, then the metal is denser than gold. Doesn't sound right. If it is thinner and 750 pure, then is should weigh less. The only way this would work, is to alloy a denser metal with gold. This would make it thinner but weight the same.
Thanks for your post. You're right. I have been thinking about this and it is making me nervous. The metal did hold up indefinitely (about 5 minutes, that was long enough for me) under 18K testing acid, which is a very strong indicator that it is 18K gold or possibly even higher (maybe .833-.900). However, at the speed with which it dissolved under 22K, I'd say much closer to .750. On the other hand, there could be some weird alloy that just doesn't melt under 18K. I have seen that one other time, with a dental piece. 22K would melt it, but 18K wouldn't. It wasn't gold at all. And it was extremely heavy. However, it was also completely silver in appearance, totally unlike this metal. Anyway, I suppose the most likely thing is that the coin is 18K with a disc (hopefully small). Quote:
Originally Posted by numismatation (Post 1826079) Acids could have gone bad. What type of acid are you using. I'm assuming nitirc acid. Nitric shouldn't disolve the gold, but the other base metals in the mix. Not sure about it disolving other noble metals except silver. ... You can try new set of acids? Maybe the acids have been concentrated (evaporation, etc) and are stronger that usual. Thus disolving a higher purity metal?
See above. Quote:
Originally Posted by numismatation (Post 1826079) I'm assuming you hit it with a magnet?
Yes, it had no attraction to an 8lb magnet I used. That particular magnet has done really well, I recommend it. Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeJuice (Post 1826091) If they are thinner than the official specifications, the same diameter, and still weight troy 1oz, it can't be a fake 18 carat gold.
I agree, it should definitely be thicker if it was 18K... unless there is some way to alloy a denser metal with .750 gold, leaving out the need for a disc? I am not a chemist or a metallurgist by any means, I leave that question up to the pros. Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeJuice (Post 1826091) 3) The surface of the coin can contain impurities (somewhat common, see with 'red spots' maples), and an acid test could be inaccurate. The .9999 specifications for coins refer to the material under the surface.
But what about an acid test where the sample is taken from fairly deep inside the coin? Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeJuice (Post 1826091) Another thing you can see: try scratching it, and see how easy it is compared to other 18k gold. It should be much softer
I've noticed that this is actually a much harder scratch. The surface of the coin will barely even scratch whatsoever. I think that is because of the design of the ridges, but it's still not nearly as easy as I think it should be. But even the inside has more resistance and flaking than 18K jewelry I have tested.

TheSkeptic | 07-20-2009 09:55 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by numismatation (Post 1826098) Occams Razor, maybe there is a mistake in one of the assumptions? Misscalculation? incorrect input? How can it be possible for multiple people at multiple locations to start introducing gold coins that are thinner than the actual coin, weigh the same, but be of 18ct gold. Too many Statistical outliners needed to make it plausible. Not saying your lying, but something in the data is wrong, skewing the results.
This is certainly possible. Not with the acid (chemically impossible as far as I know) or the weight (weighed twice and hard to misread a digital scale), but somewhere else.

SWRichmond | 07-20-2009 10:01 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Skeptic, One other factor you're contending with here...each and every time gold has flirted with backwardation, we have seen an uptick in threads reporting counterfeit / fake gold coins. This is a means used by the currency manipulators to dampen demand for physical gold. Gold began its most recent flirt with backwardation about 10 days ago, and from what I can see on Bloomberg TV today's action seems to show spot (physical) price leading the futures price upwards.

Bob | 07-20-2009 10:10 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1826069) Doubt it would take billions. They don't necessarily have to reverse engineer the surface and CNC EDM/mill a striking die from tool steel with small ball mills. ^ Expensive equipment intensive(however there are plenty of machine shops that are hurting for jobs right now/employees with access to their tools)
I know, the billions part was a bit of sarcasm. The die is still going to be fairly expensive I suspect (seems like 10-20k for sure). There are always people willing to sell out, but I don't think if I was desperate for work, I'd take a job counterfeiting coins to pay the bill (maybe some schmuck working in his basement can do this but seems unlikely). It looks to me like the coin is pretty on. The point I was really trying to make is, there are too many things wrong. If we believe the original poster, he's got a coin here that's 18 ct gold and 7% more dense than gold (I'm quoting another poster on the 7% as I didn't do the math). Ok, so the story goes something like this: 1) make perfect dies 2) make some alloy at 18ct. Now unlike normal 18ct. alloys which are much less dense than gold, ours is more dense than gold (keeping in mind, getting the density of gold is the hard part so maybe we mixed in too much platinum to further drive up our unprofitable venture here). 3) Now, before we can sell said coins, we get ripped off and someone steals them and sells them to this person or 3) We feel the heat, and for some reason rather than deciding to melt these into slugs, and sell em to the refiner, we decide to sell at a huge loss. or 3) This whole master counterfeiting plan relied on stolen gold to begin with, so rather than just selling stolen gold, we decided it would be a much better idea to start a trail and to hire out some machinist to make the dies so we could make the counterfeits so we could peddle the counterfeits and not get caught. No offense to the original poster, but I don't buy it. I think the suggestion a few posts back about sending them to a coin publication are a good one. If you want me to believe this, send them to the coin publication and have them run a story. Right now, we have someone on the internet telling us how infallible he is. He has run across a perfectly made coin that has a magic 18ct mixture that is more dense than gold when the other possibility is the acid test screwed up and he mis-measured the coins (assuming he isn't lying).

TheSkeptic | 07-20-2009 10:36 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? In a few hours I hope to have one cut in half. Will snap some photos if there is anything interesting there (like a disc!). Bob, That acid will not melt 24K gold. That is as sure as the fact that I can't jump off a roof and expect to fly. Regarding the density, it has been pointed out and makes sense that there is probably some kind of super dense disc at the core. This would explain the lack of thickness versus the lower purity gold. I'm thinking of making a video of the coin being weighed, measured, and acid tested.

Bob | 07-20-2009 11:22 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? If someone has the sophistication to counterfeited a 24 ct gold coin with a disk in the center, do you think they will a) "plate" it with 18 ct gold b) "plate" it with 24 ct gold I understand the acid test is supposed to have no effect on 24 ct gold also. But, as far as the flying part, we have had people on this board (one from the Philipines was recently banned who had ESP and talked to himself) who would probably claim they could fly. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1826319) In a few hours I hope to have one cut in half. Will snap some photos if there is anything interesting there (like a disc!). Bob, That acid will not melt 24K gold. That is as sure as the fact that I can't jump off a roof and expect to fly. Regarding the density, it has been pointed out and makes sense that there is probably some kind of super dense disc at the core. This would explain the lack of thickness versus the lower purity gold. I'm thinking of making a video of the coin being weighed, measured, and acid tested.

Private_Pyle | 07-20-2009 11:42 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I don't know anything about melting metal to form alloys, but would if be possible to melt stolen very cheaply purchased 18k gold jewelry and melt it and use it cast these objects? I can see where they would be trying to gauge the quality of the copy by running it past pro scrappers, then once they are feeling about about the quality sell in bulk. They could sell though e-bay, craigslist, coin shop, or anywhere for that matter, and sell for market value of the coin, not stolen 18K scrap price. Or gold the mint really be shipping 18K coins from day one? I HIGHLY DOUBT that, but what a scam that would be??? Does anyone know someone who has personally sent out a phil that shipped from the mint or other quality dealer and then taken it out for assay?

hernancortes | 07-20-2009 12:08 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Pyle, Cast copies have distinguishing surface characteristics. A convincing fake is made the way the real ones are.

AGRO | 07-20-2009 12:09 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1826402) I But, as far as the flying part, we have had people on this board (one from the Philipines was recently banned who had ESP and talked to himself) who would probably claim they could fly.
Had to SORRY!!! TOO FUNNY http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...d.php?t=388355 On subject - Perhaps these fakes are made in China like the Fake Morgans? Just a thought. Some of those Morgans were quite convincing.

AceNZ | 07-20-2009 01:00 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? @Skeptic, I imagine you know that buying stolen property is illegal. If you're caught, you can not only face criminal charges, but of course any money you received will be taken back. What you may not know is that you can get into deep shit even if you just suspect the property is stolen, and don't know for sure. Another thing you may not be aware of is that this is a typical ploy criminals use to get leverage over people: they sell you something stolen, particularly when they know you have a good chance of re-selling it. Then, later on they threaten to turn you in to the police if you don't go along with them in some way (such as buying/fencing more stuff). For your sake, I hope your markup is high enough to cover the resulting legal fees and time lost due to police entanglements. If it was me, I would do everything I could to avoid even being around people like that, much less doing business with them.

morganchaser | 07-20-2009 01:06 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by AGRO (Post 1826462) Had to SORRY!!! TOO FUNNY http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...d.php?t=388355 On subject - Perhaps these fakes are made in China like the Fake Morgans? Just a thought. Some of those Morgans were quite convincing.
I personally consider this the most likely scenerior. American criminals are mostly dopes. All the good shit are "crime-in-a-box" kits imported by organized crime as far as I can tell. Anyone ever heard of "DiVinci Stereo's"? http://www.ripoffreport.com/searchre...=&q6=&start=10 Where the hell are these con artists buying these things to resell?

Private_Pyle | 07-20-2009 01:21 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by hernancortes (Post 1826460) Pyle, Cast copies have distinguishing surface characteristics. A convincing fake is made the way the real ones are.
You're right. Cast was a poor choice of words. I'm just not sure how coins are stamped and what sort of equipment is required. My thinking was if someone melted 18K jewelry and processed it in a similar manor with how real coins are produced, would it appear the same? I'm wondering if the color would be off or if the melted jewelry would otherwise appear different even prior to imprinting. Sort of a way to compare the inside. My question is if the assay comes back as 18K and proves the acid test correct could these fakes from scrap melt? That would be a great way to improve the value of the scrap, but very illegal.

morganchaser | 07-20-2009 01:22 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by AceNZ (Post 1826551) @Skeptic, I imagine you know that buying stolen property is illegal. If you're caught, you can not only face criminal charges, but of course any money you received will be taken back. What you may not know is that you can get into deep shit even if you just suspect the property is stolen, and don't know for sure. Another thing you may not be aware of is that this is a typical ploy criminals use to get leverage over people: they sell you something stolen, particularly when they know you have a good chance of re-selling it. Then, later on they threaten to turn you in to the police if you don't go along with them in some way (such as buying/fencing more stuff). For your sake, I hope your markup is high enough to cover the resulting legal fees and time lost due to police entanglements. If it was me, I would do everything I could to avoid even being around people like that, much less doing business with them.
Here's Oregon: Quote:
� 164.095� Theft by receiving (1) A person commits theft by receiving if the person receives, retains, conceals or disposes of property of another knowing or having good reason to know that the property was the subject of theft. (2) "Receiving" means acquiring possession, control or title, or lending on the security of the property. [1971 c.743 �129]
It's a misdemenor AFIAK. I'd be more concerned about the possession of counterfeit money. The regardless of how you came in to possession of it is the concerning part. As far as turning stolen gold in to counterfeits: that's a bit hard to swallow for me simply because krugarands or chinese zodiac coins are bullion so are a legally superior choice if you're just looking to flip coins. The only reason to counterfeit a philharmonic or maple is if you don't want the coin to be scrutinized because of the false sense of security the secret service provides. The only reason to do so is because the gold content is less than is marked on the coin. This is a lower margin scam than faking numismatics, but it's less risky since numismatics have significantly higher scrutiny. There's only one reason these coins would be fake: slugs. Actually: I lied. Decoy safes. Some people hide a big safe in plain sight as a decoy for thieves. Such a person(like a coin collector/dealer) may load said decoy safe with bad counterfeits in order to have the thief apprehended. Such a person is relying on the scrap gold vendor to do the right thing and contact the Secret Service. I suggest Skeptic continues the assay/investigation, and sets up a meeting time to buy the rest of the lot.("I don't have enough cash on me.") Tell the cops some shady people have been trying to sell you counterfeit coins and that you don't want retaliation, but that you have a meeting place set up. If you're lucky, you may get witness protection. Alternatively to calling the cops: you could set up the meeting, tell them they're fakes and you're not interested, (don't have the cash on you) and take down their license plate. Call the cops in a couple months(give the perps time to forget about you.) and tell them the license plate is involved in burglary's or a counterfeiting ring. They follow these clowns for a couple weeks, they'll probably take down the counterfeiter/burglar, and a meth dealer. Community service.

Bob | 07-20-2009 01:41 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Except for the fact that 18 ct jewelry gold is going to have either the wrong dimensions or weight. Quote:
Originally Posted by Private_Pyle (Post 1826586) You're right. Cast was a poor choice of words. I'm just not sure how coins are stamped and what sort of equipment is required. My thinking was if someone melted 18K jewelry and processed it in a similar manor with how real coins are produced, would it appear the same? I'm wondering if the color would be off or if the melted jewelry would otherwise appear different even prior to imprinting. Sort of a way to compare the inside. My question is if the assay comes back as 18K and proves the acid test correct could these fakes from scrap melt? That would be a great way to improve the value of the scrap, but very illegal.

ds_mustang | 07-20-2009 04:46 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Sounds like high quality Chinese fakes have hit the Philharmonics and Maples now. Nobody is going to be able to buy any PMs without a scale, calipers, and an acid test kit thanks to the dang Chinese.

TheSkeptic | 07-20-2009 06:25 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Lot of stuff transpired today. I'm cooking dinner right now and will elaborate later, but here's some meat for those who think I'm making this shit up (you'll really like this): - an assay confirmed that the coins are just over 90% gold (I don't have the names or amount of other metals yet) - there was no disc (however, after cutting the coin in half, it is obvious that it is comprised of a thick outer plating and then some other metal) - the police have just confiscated the ones we bought, they are confirmed stolen from some sucker who apparently thought they were real in the first place Chew on that.

ds_mustang | 07-20-2009 06:49 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Sounds like it would've passed the Fisch as well as anybody checking with caliper and scale and allowing for very minor variation. These new counterfeits are really really good. Time to invest in an acid test kit.

goldfingerer | 07-20-2009 07:05 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1827068) Lot of stuff transpired today. I'm cooking dinner right now and will elaborate later, but here's some meat for those who think I'm making this shit up (you'll really like this): - an assay confirmed that the coins are just over 90% gold (I don't have the names or amount of other metals yet) - there was no disc (however, after cutting the coin in half, it is obvious that it is comprised of a thick outer plating and then some other metal) - the police have just confiscated the ones we bought, they are confirmed stolen from some sucker who apparently thought they were real in the first place Chew on that.
So here's what we know. The coins are stolen. The hoodlums stole what they thought was legit coins from some guy and passed them off to you as genuine. I'm still having trouble understanding the reasoning behind someone counterfitting a 100% bullion coin and making a 90% gold bullion coin instead. Especially if it has no tungsten disc in the center, just another metal different than gold. Perhaps a mixture of dense metals to create a closeness in weight, which makes the whole situation even more bizarre.

AndreaGail | 07-20-2009 07:18 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? yes it is an interesting situation. seems like an awful lot of work for the original owners / creators of these coins to at best make $95 per coin minus minting and other metal costs. but it was mentioned that the guy had 45 more so that 95 could add up quick i guess :confused_ma: still waiting to see the pick of the assay sheet though Quote:
Originally Posted by goldfingerer (Post 1827121) So here's what we know. The coins are stolen. The hoodlums stole what they thought was legit coins from some guy and passed them off to you as genuine. I'm still having trouble understanding the reasoning behind someone counterfitting a 100% bullion coin and making a 90% gold bullion coin instead. Especially if it has no tungsten disc in the center, just another metal different than gold. Perhaps a mixture of dense metals to create a closeness in weight, which makes the whole situation even more bizarre.

Buyingsilvers | 07-20-2009 07:28 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1827089) Sounds like it would've passed the Fisch as well as anybody checking with caliper and scale and allowing for very minor variation. These new counterfeits are really really good. Time to invest in an acid test kit.
Ditto... If this is real, to be 100% sure, you'd have to test all gold coins bought from anyone outside of the mint, even dealers. I'm sure APMEX doesn't acid test any of the coins that passes through their hands. So it's either damage the coin and risk any numis premiums or chance a fake.

AgKanga | 07-20-2009 07:35 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? It is hard to tell from the pics but the edges almost look smooth. These do have reeded edges, right? I know the Silver Phils are smooth but the Gold Phils are reeded and would be sure tell if these are not.

TheSkeptic | 07-20-2009 07:37 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I'm still absolutely baffled by this. I agree that from a monetary standpoint, unless they manufactured thousands of these, there is virtually no reason to make a .900 counterfeit of a .999. One interesting thing - my partner did break out an untouched 24K gold coins and the color difference wasn't dramatic, but you could see some. The color of these looks more consistent with a Liberty, which we also did a direct comparison with today. Anyway, he is the one who got the phone call about the assay results. I am 90% sure (no pun intended) that they used a fire assay on one half of the coin we brought them. I have asked to get the info on the other metal (because there can't be too many possibilities for that), but I probably won't have it until tomorrow. The guy who cut the coin in half and examined it pointed out changes in color under a loupe, where I had just been looking for consistency without one. You could definitely see an extremely thick plating over a core of something else. He said it looked like copper, but since the density is lower, that's pretty much impossible. I took a video on my Blackberry of the coin after it was cut in half. I'm sure the quality is poor, but I'll try to attach it tonight or tomorrow. I did in fact email the Austrian mint. Some lady responded stating that there are no counterfeit Philharmonics. What's sad is that these have likely sat in the theft victim's safe for a long time. Who knows how many are out there. What's funny is that when the investigators came today, they apparently had no idea these were fake - and they had already been to at least two other jewelry stores/gold buyers that we know of. I don't think anyone else had caught on. We have one that has not been filed or assayed, but we have been told to bring it to the PD tomorrow since it is now evidence. I'm going to try to take some video and photos of it being weighed and measured beforehand.

morganchaser | 07-20-2009 07:50 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Buyingsilvers (Post 1827161) Ditto... If this is real, to be 100% sure, you'd have to test all gold coins bought from anyone outside of the mint, even dealers. I'm sure APMEX doesn't acid test any of the coins that passes through their hands. So it's either damage the coin and risk any numis premiums or chance a fake.
The thickness+diameter vs. weight test has always been sketch to me for the simple fact that tungsten is virtually the same density, and you can exaggerate the raised protrusions on the coin's features to make up for the difference in order to pass the thickness. Kinda like trying to measure the thickness of a jelly doughnut to a .001 precision. Not enough information. You'll see variances of up to .050 by any criteria. Fisch scales need a "go/no go" lid/relief similar to the striking dies themselves that will seat flush on legit coins to be worth a damn. These could be cast from epoxy due to it's zero-shrink properties. That leaves an alloy of lead/tungsten and platinum which is cost prohibitive ATM. All the counterfeiters will be forced to stick with numismatics and 100oz silver bars/avoid people who have the proper equipment. The status quo is pretty sloppy considering the stakes IMHO. Not that my list of urgent projects isn't already incredibly long, but I guess I need to "Fix the Fisch" while I'm at it. Edit: Just saw the pictures. I'll be damned if that isn't the prettiest counterfeit I've ever seen. Picture was so blurry I didn't bother to go upstairs and get a comparison phil+a loupe, but DAMN... If you can do a specific gravity test that'll tell us a lot about the alloy they used to fill the coin? 18K+Yellow Slug? Wow.

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- - Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=392148)

TheSkeptic | 07-20-2009 08:21 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I am dying to know what that other metal was too. I know very, very little about the criminal investigation that is going on, but I fully intend to try to find out the victim's info and sit down and talk with him about these coins if I can. As far as I know, we are the only people that actually bought any. I'd love to know where he got them.

mamboni | 07-20-2009 08:40 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1827224) I am dying to know what that other metal was too. I know very, very little about the criminal investigation that is going on, but I fully intend to try to find out the victim's info and sit down and talk with him about these coins if I can. As far as I know, we are the only people that actually bought any. I'd love to know where he got them.
Personally, I don't believe these are the usual counterfeits - the risk/reward ratio is too high. One would have to move a huge number of these to make enough profit (~10% skim) to offset the enormous fabrication costs (that fake is perfect) and the risk of detection. A counterfeiter would sooner fake a numi with it's high premium than a bulk bullion coin which is what the Phils are. I'm going to throw out a wild theory and welcome rebuttals. I believe these coins were produced at the mint in Austria. Someone inside figured out a way to substitute a cheaper metal for some of the gold, and to do it without being detected. This person likely knows how to evade or game the QC process, perhaps by falsifying assay results. Considering the enormous volume of gold Phils produced, a skim of 10% of the gold would be enormous. And considering how good these fakes are, this counterfeiting could be going on for years without detection. Unless someone can prove that the Austrian mint's QC is fool proof, that is the first place I would investigate as the source of the fakes.

RossL | 07-20-2009 08:55 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1827089) Sounds like it would've passed the Fisch as well as anybody checking with caliper and scale and allowing for very minor variation. These new counterfeits are really really good. Time to invest in an acid test kit.
The thickness of the fakes are 93% of the spec. When I put a real coin into the slot on a Fisch, it is real tight. No slop whatsoever. A coin at 93% will certainly be noticable.

GardensGold&Guns | 07-20-2009 09:45 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1827246) Personally, I don't believe these are the usual counterfeits - the risk/reward ratio is too high. One would have to move a huge number of these to make enough profit (~10% skim) to offset the enormous fabrication costs (that fake is perfect) and the risk of detection. A counterfeiter would sooner fake a numi with it's high premium than a bulk bullion coin which is what the Phils are. I'm going to throw out a wild theory and welcome rebuttals. I believe these coins were produced at the mint in Austria. Someone inside figured out a way to substitute a cheaper metal for some of the gold, and to do it without being detected. This person likely knows how to evade or game the QC process, perhaps by falsifying assay results. Considering the enormous volume of gold Phils produced, a skim of 10% of the gold would be enormous. And considering how good these fakes are, this counterfeiting could be going on for years without detection. Unless someone can prove that the Austrian mint's QC is fool proof, that is the first place I would investigate as the source of the fakes.
Good theory! where's the pics on the assay????? ...was there a police report filed??? lets see a copy

fasTTcar | 07-20-2009 10:57 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Now I am the skeptic. Please post a copy of the assay.

CAVU | 07-20-2009 11:48 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Good thinking outside the box mamboni. The Canada mint loses 17514 ounces of gold then its plausible the Austrian mint could as well. If that theory was found true, it would turn the bullion coin world upside down. No one would know what to trust was legit.

melbo | 07-21-2009 12:09 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1827246) I'm going to throw out a wild theory and welcome rebuttals. I believe these coins were produced at the mint in Austria. Someone inside figured out a way to substitute a cheaper metal for some of the gold, and to do it without being detected. This person likely knows how to evade or game the QC process, perhaps by falsifying assay results. Considering the enormous volume of gold Phils produced, a skim of 10% of the gold would be enormous. And considering how good these fakes are, this counterfeiting could be going on for years without detection. Unless someone can prove that the Austrian mint's QC is fool proof, that is the first place I would investigate as the source of the fakes.
Wow, Has anyone ever assayed a GAE? This snippet from the US Mint has me a little worried considering the track record of the .gov. Are we that greater fool? Think of other things they have 'guaranteed' Quote:
~coins whose weight, content and purity are guaranteed by the U.S. government.

beefsteak | 07-21-2009 12:09 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Any sense, Skeptic, that some of what you are being brought have been busted out of these type slabs?. Here's only part of the deal on that topic..again, thank you, Chinese. Quote:
http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/a...rfeitSlabs.jpg Photo courtesy of Jinghua Shei. (Friday, Feb 2009) "This photo, provided to [the original investigative reporter who goes by the name, Susan Headley] by the Chinese coin counterfeiting ring, shows coins that have been put in slabs, or coin holders that have a grade on them. "It's kind of amusing to see notations like "AU 55 Details - Cleaned," as if the coin is a genuine About Uncirculated 55-graded coin that has been damaged by cleaning, rather than the outright fake that it is! "Unfortunately, such dissembling really fools people because I have argued many times with people who refuse to believe that counterfeiters would go to the trouble to make a fake coin and then degrade its value by damaging it. The counterfeiters know that the damage makes the coins more acceptable to many people because it allays suspicion about the authenticity of the coin in these people's minds. "The fake slabs on this [photo] are not the PCGS or NGC type that has been in the news recently, but there is no doubt at all that the coins this operation is making are being placed into the fake grading service holders of these companies."
caveat emptor

BoatingAccident | 07-21-2009 01:01 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Flood the market with quality bullion fakes, and you put fear into the market. Afterall, why would someone invest in faking quality bullion, over numismatics. If so invested. 18K bullion coins, my ass. Fear, controls the masses. I smell a rat.

morganchaser | 07-21-2009 03:12 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by BoatingAccident (Post 1827613) Flood the market with quality bullion fakes, and you put fear into the market. Afterall, why would someone invest in faking quality bullion, over numismatics. If so invested. 18K bullion coins, my ass. Fear, controls the masses. I smell a rat.
If that's what's going on: our recourse is to clean house and make sure that our counterfeit detection is top notch, our slab seals are tamper proof, and that we treat the issue like what it is: a very high stakes game of security. The free market has done a good job, but market forces allow for lax security just like they allow for fractional reserve lending. Vigillance is key in the security industry because we only have to slip up once.

OrangeJuice | 07-21-2009 03:55 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1827689) The free market has done a good job, but market forces allow for lax security just like they allow for fractional reserve lending. Vigillance is key in the security industry because we only have to slip up once.
Just a small correction: It's not the free market that 'allows' fractional reserve lending, it's government (i.e. socialized) court system. Law suits were filled at the beginning of the 19th century against against fractional lender banks, but the judges ruled in favor of the - very politically connected - banks. Nothing has changed, really.

OrangeJuice | 07-21-2009 04:03 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Still , the mystery of how a philharmonic can be both less than 24k and thinner than 2.0 mm is still unresolved.

morganchaser | 07-21-2009 04:14 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeJuice (Post 1827718) Still , the mystery of how a philharmonic can be both less than 24k and thinner than 2.0 mm is still unresolved.
Is what we need is a gang of meddling kids.

Shasta Gold | 07-21-2009 04:45 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1827068) - the police have just confiscated the ones we bought, they are confirmed stolen from some sucker who apparently thought they were real in the first place
How about posting a copy of the police report?

morganchaser | 07-21-2009 04:47 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeJuice (Post 1827718) Still , the mystery of how a philharmonic can be both less than 24k and thinner than 2.0 mm is still unresolved.
Candidates with a yellow color: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowcake "Lead monoxide" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_oxide http://images.google.com/images?q=le...N&hl=en&tab=wi

numismatation | 07-21-2009 08:24 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Still sounds suss, why wouldn't "they" heavily plate the coins with 24ct gold instead of 90%. They are leaving themselves open to be found out (buy you, apparently). Would be good to see the entire coin assayed (not just half), to show total amount of 99.99 gold in the one ounce fake. Is the entire coins 90% throughout?

fasTTcar | 07-21-2009 09:41 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Basic facts stated: Coin weighs 31.1 grams Same diameter Slightly thinner Not pure All four of these items can not be true unless you are using a heavier alloy, and all heavier alloys are more expensive. This does not make sense.

rodzm | 07-21-2009 09:48 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by fasTTcar (Post 1827905) Basic facts stated: Coin weighs 31.1 grams Same diameter Slightly thinner Not pure All four of these items can not be true unless you are using a heavier alloy, and all heavier alloys are more expensive. This does not make sense.
What if it was the Austrian mint making these

mamboni | 07-21-2009 09:58 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by rodzm (Post 1827914) What if it was the Austrian mint making these
You'd have a megascandal! Imagine the purity of hundreds of thousands of gold bullion coins suddenly called into question. And the Austrian Mint's reputation, one of the most venerable, would be mud. It would likely trigger scrutiny of other bullion coins as well.

madfranks | 07-21-2009 10:01 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1827246) I'm going to throw out a wild theory and welcome rebuttals. I believe these coins were produced at the mint in Austria. Someone inside figured out a way to substitute a cheaper metal for some of the gold, and to do it without being detected. This person likely knows how to evade or game the QC process, perhaps by falsifying assay results. Considering the enormous volume of gold Phils produced, a skim of 10% of the gold would be enormous. And considering how good these fakes are, this counterfeiting could be going on for years without detection. Unless someone can prove that the Austrian mint's QC is fool proof, that is the first place I would investigate as the source of the fakes.
We need to get all the GIMmers who have Philharmonics to acid test them with 18k acid to see if they react or not. If your theory is true, than it shouldn't be hard to collaborate this with evidence from GIMmers all over the place. I don't own a Philharmonic, but if I did, after reading this thread I'd be at my dealer to have him acid test it for me! By the way Mamboni, I agree with you; this would not be the first time a gov't entity debased the coin of the realm. However, it is strange that they would make so many and not expect someone to eventually test it for purity, maybe it is a recent change, maybe only the Phils denominated in Euros are 90%, while previous ones are still .9999.

rodzm | 07-21-2009 10:08 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1827928) You'd have a megascandal! Imagine the purity of hundreds of thousands of gold bullion coins suddenly called into question. And the Austrian Mint's reputation, one of the most venerable, would be mud. It would likely trigger scrutiny of other bullion coins as well.
Well your previous theory could not be far off...I mean who would go out of their way to make a .900 version of a .999 coin. Too much work i think. Imagine if it was indeed the Austrian mint who made these or an employee. Anything is possible

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 10:20 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Here is what we have left: 1) half of the first coin we bought, which has been fired 2) the second half of that coin in its "original" condition (and high res pics of the inside of this one will be very telling!) 3) a full, uncut coin that we have been told to take to the police as evidence in their investigation of the theft No one has said anything about the first coin. But I could not prove the case with it, since it has been cut in half and people could argue the diameter measurements and weight. You can clearly see a plating when you look at it from the inside now, but people will just say that coin was likely off in its weight and/or dimensions. The other coin we have, unfortunately, is going to get tied up in this investigation. I wonder if the Secret Service would take the time or have the interest (foreign currency) to get some of these from the police, and pursue it. If you guys think so, I will probably contact them. The thing is that I don't trust SS. I would much rather find out who they were stolen from, tell him what I know, and offer to buy one of the coins at 90% spot. Then I could send it untouched to some kind of journal, who would hopefully reimburse me for the coin and what would surely be a very good story. When we go give the PD the intact coin, I'm sure we'll get an evidence receipt. Maybe I can post a copy of that, we'll see. I just called and was told that because they did a quick assay, they were just looking for gold, and I don't think a report on the other metals was issued. But the good news is that there are still chances for one to be done on one or more of these coins. I understand that many are reluctant to believe an anonymous poster on a forum. But if you read about this from a known and trusted source, maybe you'll believe it then...

Willie Peter | 07-21-2009 10:26 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? More fuel for the Drama fire; I just received this email back after my inquiry to the Austrian Mint... Dear Sir, If the 1 oz coin has a weight of only 18 karat gold, it is not a Gold Philarmonic coin. The Fine weight of the coin is desicive. (31,103 g) The thickness is within the tolerance. Best regards Johann Hanslmaier Direct Marketing M�NZE �STERREICH AG AM HEUMARKT 1 * 1031 WIEN * �STERREICH * POSTFACH 181 TELEFON +43 1 717 15-165 * johann.hanslmaier@Austrian-Mint.at * www.austrian-mint.at Firmenbuch Nr. FN 55543g, Handelsgericht Wien, UID-Nr.: ATU 37114706, ARA-Nr.: 7352, DVR: 0558826 -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Gesendet: Sonntag, 19. Juli 2009 19:32 An: Abteilung Marketing Betreff: 1 Oz Gold Philharmonic coin I'd inquired as to the specifications, IF a 1.86mm coin thickness would be allowable, apparently it is.

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 10:30 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) If anyone's interested, here is a very short video clip I took of the coin after it was cut in half. Pretty crappy quality and not very helpful, but blame Blackberry. :) You will have to change the .mp3 extension to .3gp to get it to play. Quicktime Player will play this format (with sound), so will VLC Media Player (but with no sound for some reason) Also - the fake Maple Leaf I posted about... I followed up yesterday, and found out that the guys who bought it located the woman and got their money back after they saw the results of the acid test. These guys have been buying gold for years. I'm telling you, acid doesn't lie. :wink:

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 10:35 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Interesting. Here is my conversation with the Mint to date: Quote:
Gesendet: Sonntag, 19. Juli 2009 16:23 An: Abteilung Verkauf Betreff: Possible Counterfeit Philharmonics Some gold dealers in our area have been approached with what are possibly counterfeit 2009 Philharmonics. Here are the specs: Weight: 31.1g/20.00dwt Diameter: 37.01mm Thickness: 1.86mm Can you please tell me what the tolerances should be for mint errors? For instance, if a coin is 1.86mm, is that within the reasonable range of error from the mint? Or are all coins going to be EXACTLY 2mm thick? Thank you, xxx
Their response: Quote:
date Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 11:01 AM subject Philharmonics Dear Mr. X: Hmmm, ......since there are no counterfeit Philharmonics anywhere, our first question to you is why do you suspect that these are counterfeit? In other words why did you first think this? Thank you, Kirsten Petersen Director International Markets Austrian Mint
My response: Quote:
They are now confirmed counterfeits. An assay was performed on one of the coins, which was found to contain just over 90% gold. Even without doing the assay, we suspected that they were counterfeit when they failed a simple acid test. Other than the dimensions being slightly incorrect, we cut the coin in half and noted variation in the color of the metal, indicating a plating. I personally saw about 10 of these, but we are told there are about 45, possibly more. Police are already involved because a large amount of gold was stolen from the person who was holding these coins.
No response yet.

rodzm | 07-21-2009 10:38 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I dont recall 1 oz Phils to be that thin. The video shows an awful thin coin

mamboni | 07-21-2009 10:41 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Skeptic quotes virtual perfect specs to the Austrian Mint rep and her response is: date Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 11:01 AM subject Philharmonics Dear Mr. X: Hmmm, ......since there are no counterfeit Philharmonics anywhere, our first question to you is why do you suspect that these are counterfeit? In other words why did you first think this? Thank you, Kirsten Petersen Director International Markets Austrian Mint This woman should be listed under the dictionary definition of OBTUSE! The coins is gold, looks perfect, measures near perfect, and she doesn't understand why he suspects a counterfeit? Sometimes I think the entire Western world has dropped about 40 IQ points.:banghead:

Victor | 07-21-2009 10:51 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Skeptic, are these 2009 Philharmonics?

rodzm | 07-21-2009 10:53 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor (Post 1827996) Skeptic, are these 2009 Philharmonics?
Post #145...short answer....yes

Victor | 07-21-2009 10:57 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I saw that. I am asking Skeptic because he said these are 2009 coins and yet I read this quote from him on page 3 post #119: "I did in fact email the Austrian mint. Some lady responded stating that there are no counterfeit Philharmonics. What's sad is that these have likely sat in the theft victim's safe for a long time. Who knows how many are out there. What's funny is that when the investigators came today, they apparently had no idea these were fake - and they had already been to at least two other jewelry stores/gold buyers that we know of. I don't think anyone else had caught on." So are they 2009 coins or are they old?

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TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 11:04 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? They are 2009. What is the earliest he could've ordered some 2009s?

Victor | 07-21-2009 11:21 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? So what do you consider a "long time"?

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 11:26 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? To me, even a few months is a long time to possess counterfeit coins. Couldn't he have bought these sometime late 2008?

Bob | 07-21-2009 11:37 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I'm going to amend my opinion presented earlier in this thread. I think we're getting played here. Post some cold hard proof! Police report, assay results, etc. Not emails, not conversations you had with so and so, not what the assayer told you. I've seen this sort of thing happen before... Someone spins a story, and sees how long they can get sympathy or the board all riled up. You've been here 1.5 months and managed to post your 30% spot thread and now this. You claim you have a mystery 75-90% alloy that is magically more dense than gold. The fake is perfect in appearance, and everything else. Earlier you said it'd take a week for the assay results, now you got it overnight, but you only know it's 90%.... Blah blah blah... Post some proof!

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 11:49 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1828066) I'm going to amend my opinion presented earlier in this thread. I think we're getting played here. Post some cold hard proof! Police report, assay results, etc. Not emails, not conversations you had with so and so, not what the assayer told you. I've seen this sort of thing happen before... Someone spins a story, and sees how long they can get sympathy or the board all riled up. You've been here 1.5 months and managed to post your 30% spot thread and now this. You claim you have a mystery 75-90% alloy that is magically more dense than gold. The fake is perfect in appearance, and everything else. Earlier you said it'd take a week for the assay results, now you got it overnight, but you only know it's 90%.... Blah blah blah... Post some proof!
The coins were not stolen from us, thus I cannot just march into the PD and demand a copy of the report, or documents relating to the investigation. What we CAN get is a receipt when we surrender the evidence, which I will post. At first I was told that the assay would come back in 3 to 4 days. But when we took this coin in, staff was pretty amazed by it and we were given the option of a quick assay to determine purity after the coin was cut in half. We took the quick option and left the other half in case we wanted to do a full assay. My understanding was that even with a quick assay, we would be able to know the other metal. The guy who faciliated all this is out of town today, but apparently I was wrong about getting to know the other metal content unless we do a complete assay on the other half. Right now that is going to be very difficult, since the PD wants everything we bought. I am going to see if I can somehow retain the filed/cut up/fired coin but that is up in the air. This process is going to take some time. I am going to take some more photos today, but I have other things to be doing, and there are also other people involved (police, assayer, the rightful owner). And when I post an assay certificate, then what? You'll just say it's not from the same coin. It could be from anything. Until this is published by a respected publication, hardly anyone will believe me - but I don't have a problem with that. My name is, after all, "The Skeptic." What is the point of me trying to make all this up? Wait, I've got it - I have delusions of grandeur in which I single-handedly destroy the market for bullion! :ARMS1: It's 35%. :wink: The bottom line is this - It will probably take a couple of weeks to get all the info and see how this thing plays out. Think what you will in the meantime. I have no reason to waste a bunch of my time making this up. I am fascinated by these coins and want to get to the bottom of this. But when you have cops and other parties involved, things get slowed down. I will look for all the proof I can and post it as I get it. Yet at the same time, it is not suddenly my life's mission to keep you guys up to speed (no offense :biggrin:) on this. I will also try to obtain the ultimate proof - an untouched coin from this collection (perhaps I can buy one from the owner) and send it to someone you will believe, such as a publication.

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 11:54 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Just curious, if I am in fact able to buy one or more of these coins from the person they were stolen from - Anyone interested in buying them at 90% spot? I'm gaming you, right? They're real! So that's a free 1/10 ozt of gold... :wink: Didn't think so.

Bob | 07-21-2009 11:54 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I don't see any proof. All I see is the list of excuses as to why this is going to take longer. The guy is out of town, the cops want the rest, etc. I reiterate: post some proof. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1828084) The coins were not stolen from us, thus I cannot just march into the PD and demand a copy of the report, or documents relating to the investigation. What we CAN get is a receipt when we surrender the evidence, which I will post. At first I was told that the assay would come back in 3 to 4 days. But when we took this coin in, staff was pretty amazed by it and we were given the option of a quick assay to determine purity after the coin was cut in half. We took the quick option and left the other half in case we wanted to do a full assay. My understanding was that even with a quick assay, we would be able to know the other metal. The guy who faciliated all this is out of town today, but apparently I was wrong about getting to know the other metal content unless we do a complete assay on the other half. Right now that is going to be very difficult, since the PD wants everything we bought. I am going to see if I can somehow retain the filed/cut up/fired coin but that is up in the air. This process is going to take some time. I am going to take some more photos today, but I have other things to be doing, and there are also other people involved (police, assayer, the rightful owner). And when I post an assay certificate, then what? You'll just say it's not from the same coin. It could be from anything. Until this is published by a respected publication, hardly anyone will believe me - but I don't have a problem with that. My name is, after all, "The Skeptic." What is the point of me trying to make all this up? Wait, I've got it - I have delusions of grandeur in which I single-handedly destroy the market for bullion! :ARMS1: It's 35%. :wink: The bottom line is this - It will probably take a couple of weeks to get all the info and see how this thing plays out. Think what you will in the meantime. I have no reason to waste a bunch of my time making this up. I am fascinated by these coins and want to get to the bottom of this. But when you have cops and other parties involved, things get slowed down. I will look for all the proof I can and post it as I get it. Yet at the same time, it is not suddenly my life's mission to keep you guys up to speed (no offense :biggrin:) on this. I will also try to obtain the ultimate proof - an untouched coin from this collection (perhaps I can buy one from the owner) and send it to someone you will believe, such as a publication.

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 11:57 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I will, when I get it. RTFP. Or better yet, buy one of the coins if I can obtain some from the owner. Put your money where your mouth is. We'll go through Escrow.com. Edit: I'll even pay for shipping.

oboshoe | 07-21-2009 12:19 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1827953) The other coin we have, unfortunately, is going to get tied up in this investigation. I wonder if the Secret Service would take the time or have the interest (foreign currency) to get some of these from the police, and pursue it. If you guys think so, I will probably contact them.
I find it quite surprising that the local police haven't already notified the Secret Service or the FBI. They punt the ball on these matters quite quickly. So....Which local Police department did you say is investigating this?

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 12:25 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I have purposely not revealed what cities we are operating in in other threads, and I won't do it here. With the amount of information I have given out about business operations, amount of gold we buy, financials, etc., I don't think it's wise. I value privacy as much as anyone else. And I think you may misunderstand the nature of the investigation. These coins, and apparently a lot of other bullion, were stolen from someone. The PD is not investigating counterfeiting; it is investigating burglary and theft. My understanding is that the PD had not heard they were counterfeit until yesterday, when they came to see us and my partner told them. I wasn't there. But right now, that is about the last thing on their mind, as they are still trying to catch everyone involved in the theft. Still no takers if I can get some of these "real" coins? Come on - Escrow.com, no premium, 90% spot, no shipping!

Victor | 07-21-2009 12:32 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1828095) I will, when I get it. RTFP. Or better yet, buy one of the coins if I can obtain some from the owner. Put your money where your mouth is. We'll go through Escrow.com. Edit: I'll even pay for shipping.
Being these are part of a criminal theft investigation locally and possibly an international counterfeiting crime possibly involving the Austrian gov, there in no way.....no way you are going to be able to obtain one of these for resale. Your story has holes in it. I mean scientific theory alone one would think you would have done testing on a known "good coin" to develop a bench mark before you emailed the Austrian gov claiming you have a .900 counterfeit coin. That is a bold claim to make to a .gov body with a simple acid test and a fire assay that you can't produce..... This whole thread smells like the silver thread a few months back.....

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 12:39 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I thought .999 WAS the benchmark. Is 10% short within "tolerance level" for these coins? I trust the person who gave me the results of the assay. I don't expect you to, since you don't know anything about the company or the people we are dealing with. I have also looked at the inside of one of these with a 16X loupe. Trust me, that ended the debate for me once and for all. The "story" doesn't have holes in it. It just has claims that I cannot 100% prove unless you are standing there watching. I don't blame you for skepticism, but like I said, I cannot wave a magic wand and suddenly align the stars to produce the incontrovertible proof. It will take time. And even if I do a formal assay of the other half of the coin and post the results, that will be questioned. People will say it wasn't from the same coin. I do stand a chance of obtaining one. First of all, if the counterfeit card isn't given much weight, the PD will just give the coins back to the owner, and possibly very soon if the guys decide to plead guilty. From that point, I don't think he would have any problems selling me a couple, especially given the fact that I can show him physical proof that they were counterfeit. It's just a matter of getting his contact information. Now, if the SS and the Austrian government gets involved, it will be a different story, yes. But by virtue of your statement, you acknowledge that there is a possibility I'm telling the truth, right? :wink:

ds_mustang | 07-21-2009 12:41 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1827246) Personally, I don't believe these are the usual counterfeits - the risk/reward ratio is too high. One would have to move a huge number of these to make enough profit (~10% skim) to offset the enormous fabrication costs (that fake is perfect) and the risk of detection. A counterfeiter would sooner fake a numi with it's high premium than a bulk bullion coin which is what the Phils are. I'm going to throw out a wild theory and welcome rebuttals. I believe these coins were produced at the mint in Austria. Someone inside figured out a way to substitute a cheaper metal for some of the gold, and to do it without being detected. This person likely knows how to evade or game the QC process, perhaps by falsifying assay results. Considering the enormous volume of gold Phils produced, a skim of 10% of the gold would be enormous. And considering how good these fakes are, this counterfeiting could be going on for years without detection. Unless someone can prove that the Austrian mint's QC is fool proof, that is the first place I would investigate as the source of the fakes.
I think it's much more likely that some Chinese company would make a high quality replica (which as I understand isn't even illegal there and is very common) over thinking someone at a government mint somehow can modify the entire production process without being detected to generate fakes redesigned to correct specs but with 10% less gold.

oboshoe | 07-21-2009 12:41 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1828121) I have purposely not revealed what cities we are operating in in other threads, and I won't do it here. With the amount of information I have given out about business operations, amount of gold we buy, financials, etc., I don't think it's wise. I value privacy as much as anyone else. And I think you may misunderstand the nature of the investigation. These coins, and apparently a lot of other bullion, were stolen from someone. The PD is not investigating counterfeiting; it is investigating burglary and theft. My understanding is that the PD had not heard they were counterfeit until yesterday, when they came to see us and my partner told them. I wasn't there. But right now, that is about the last thing on their mind, as they are still trying to catch everyone involved in the theft. Still no takers if I can get some of these "real" coins? Come on - Escrow.com, no premium, 90% spot, no shipping!
Why would anyone knowingly purchase stolen and counterfeit coins? Yes. Good idea about keeping your city secret. Gold buying operations are so incredibly rare and unique. So...The local PD has been informed that the coins are counterfeit currency, yet they are still doing their own investigation eh? I kindly suggest that you puts some more spin on this tale. Its getting shaky again.

goldsack | 07-21-2009 12:44 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? **********

oboshoe | 07-21-2009 12:46 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by goldsack (Post 1828149) right.. So, the message is clear...gold swindler circulates internet rumour that fake bullion coins measuring %90 purity are being dumped for less than %50 value...complete with blurry pictures and fuzzy proof. He is doing you a favour to purchase your bullion before the value drops to zero...all i need now is a "trust me" and i will be convinced that the top is in... What you are doing may not be illegal, but it sure as shit borders on unethical
Nah. There is no manipulation being attempted here. Its just an old fashioned tall tale that serves no other purpose than to entertain the person telling it. I doubt this major gold buying operation even exists.

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 12:47 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? oboshoe, So I guess if I give you the local PD's phone number, they will be glad to divulge everything they know about an open investigation over the phone, right? They are doing an investigation into THEFT of the coins. Whether they are counterfeit or not, they were STOLEN. They cannot just drop that case, even if they think they are counterfeit. And to top it all off, this just transpired yesterday - far too early for me to know what calls were placed or who is in the works at other agencies. Some of you people have the reading comprehension and deductive reasoning of a six year old. :banghead:

Atahualpa | 07-21-2009 12:47 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? The problem I have with this thread is it is attempting to cast a dark shadow on the trustworthiness of bullion gold coins on a internationally popular website that is devoted to all things gold, and then because of privacy concerns and other circumstances, we can't really resolve it. This story doesn't add up to me. The coin is undersized and underkarated, yet the coin is the correct weight...that doesn't cut it. It would have to be alloyed with a metal heavier than gold...what metal could that be?

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 12:49 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Like I said, my offer still stands. Assuming I can buy some of these, any takers? Anyone willing to put some money where their mouth is? Now, I'm off to a 2 1/2 hour dental appointment! :(

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 12:50 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1828159) The problem I have with this thread is it is attempting to casting a dark shadow on the trustworthiness of bullion gold coins on a internationally popular website that is devoted to all things gold, and then because of privacy concerns and other circumstances, we can't really resolve it. This story doesn't add up to me. The coin is undersized and underkarated, yet the coin is the correct weight...that doesn't cut it. It would have to be alloyed with a metal heavier than gold...what metal could that be?
I told you guys, I will post as much proof as I can, as it comes to me. There are other parties involved now, and this is not as simple as it used to be. I do not expect anyone to be calling the Mint demanding answers based on what evidence already exists in this thread.

Bob | 07-21-2009 12:50 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe purchasing one of these alleged coins would be illegal if they're not being sold as real. You can posses a counterfeit coin as long as you don't attempt to pass it as the real thing (for instance, the Henning nickels are sold on eBay all the time). That being said, I would be interested in purchasing a fake like this for melt value if I had the disposable funds (which I don't). I still believe we are being played here. A copy of an assay result showing the exact composition would go a long way to convince me. Hell, I'd love to see a nice scan of said half a coin, not the blurry pics.

oboshoe | 07-21-2009 12:51 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1828158) oboshoe, So I guess if I give you the local PD's phone number, they will be glad to divulge everything they know about an open investigation over the phone, right? They are doing an investigation into THEFT of the coins. Whether they are counterfeit or not, they were STOLEN. They cannot just drop that case, even if they think they are counterfeit. And to top it all off, this just transpired yesterday - far too early for me to know what calls were placed or who is in the works at other agencies. Some of you people have the reading comprehension and deductive reasoning of a six year old. :banghead:
I'm just curious what agency the SS and FBI have outsourced their counterfeiting investigations too. Must be one hell of a dept.

ds_mustang | 07-21-2009 12:59 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? This is easily one of the best threads on GIM in months. If you don't believe it good for you, but getting the occasional thread like this is why I bother wading through the other 98% of crap threads on here.

mamboni | 07-21-2009 01:03 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1828197) This is easily one of the best threads on GIM in months. If you don't believe it good for you, but getting the occasional thread like this is why I bother wading through the other 98% of crap threads on here.
Yours is sad commentary on the decline in quality of threads here at GIM in the last few months. Not that this thread isn't interesting. But, in the old days it would be an also-ran at best. The old time posters started a lot more threads on silver, gold, macroeconomics and other heady stuff. I suspect they been discouraged from posting by all the nitt-picking and contentiousness.

Fermentation | 07-21-2009 01:08 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1828066) I'm going to amend my opinion presented earlier in this thread. I think we're getting played here. Post some cold hard proof! Police report, assay results, etc. Not emails, not conversations you had with so and so, not what the assayer told you. I've seen this sort of thing happen before... Someone spins a story, and sees how long they can get sympathy or the board all riled up. You've been here 1.5 months and managed to post your 30% spot thread and now this. You claim you have a mystery 75-90% alloy that is magically more dense than gold. The fake is perfect in appearance, and everything else. Earlier you said it'd take a week for the assay results, now you got it overnight, but you only know it's 90%.... Blah blah blah... Post some proof!
As I said before this guy is a complete corn-pone hack, i figured you guys would figure it out sooner than later. My best guess is that he's trying to come of with a scam himself, and using you guys and your info to help him avoid detection (casing), seeing how much you know, how to scam the people who really know what's up with buillion coins. A two bit hustler, or liar or worst. You guys are being played fellas. My guess he'll have to change identities unless he can come up with the documents you guys are requesting. But I guess he can fake those if you give him enough time. Don't feed or play with trolls, the little ****2rs stink something fierce. Kill this troll now!!!!

goldsack | 07-21-2009 01:14 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? ************

Fermentation | 07-21-2009 01:17 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Yeah, now those guy is off to a two hour dental appointment. Probably won't hear from him again, unless he can come up with some fake docs. Thou protests too much! What a loser troll. GIM is on his Azz however, and I do indeed appreciate the bloodhound approach guys. keep it up!

Fermentation | 07-21-2009 01:22 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1828162) Like I said, my offer still stands. Assuming I can buy some of these, any takers? Anyone willing to put some money where their mouth is? Now, I'm off to a 2 1/2 hour dental appointment! :(
I'm willing to bite. How do I get one of these coins, and get the money to you? Let's do it. I had my dental appt yesterday, so I'm free. please however seen my a pic or a scan of the coin first. Preferably on your scale, with weight read out, just so we're on the same page. I don't mind taking one of the coins you've cut open, actually that's preferable. i don't mind taking the hit. We should get to the bottom of this, any PM investor would want to know about this potential scam. Thanks in advance.

goldsack | 07-21-2009 01:24 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? **************

Atahualpa | 07-21-2009 01:27 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1828220) Yours is sad commentary on the decline in quality of threads here at GIM in the last few months. Not that this thread isn't interesting. But, in the old days it would be an also-ran at best. The old time posters started a lot more threads on silver, gold, macroeconomics and other heady stuff. I suspect they been discouraged from posting by all the nitt-picking and contentiousness.
In the early days of GIM, gold was under $300 and silver was under $5, mining stocks were coming alive after 30 years, oil was moving strong...the whole commodity sector was where the action was. Then came the big correction and economic turmoil. There has been a lot of reality in the last 2 years. Not too many people are so confident about playing the markets or their analysis of the market ...silver went up, crashed and has recovered a little...but it hasn't been exciting. Physical bullion gold is about the only thing that has provided safety...oh yeah, you can't even trust gold bullion government coins. :wink:

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rodzm | 07-21-2009 01:32 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Too much flaming going on in this thread...do people just enjoy doing that I wonder. Yes the guy hasnt produced much proof but that is not to say he is not telling the truth. If you all are so sure that the man is BSing then you must be sleeping in the same bed with him. I say this...if you think the man is full of it then go somehwere else and stop flaming. It is not constructive, does not clarify a discussion, and does not persuade others.

Bob | 07-21-2009 01:39 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? If he comes up with proof, I will gladly apologize. My reason for bluntly calling him on a lack of proof was because it is my sincere belief that we are being played, and the quickest way to end that is to call someone on it. We had a similar silver post in the past. In that case, the gent obviously was sincere, but had messed up and the silver coins were in fact genuine and pure (as APMEX proved). Quote:
Originally Posted by rodzm (Post 1828291) Too much flaming going on in this thread...do people just enjoy doing that I wonder. Yes the guy hasnt produced much proof but that is not to say he is not telling the truth. If you all are so sure that the man is BSing then you must be sleeping in the same bed with him. I say this...if you think the man is full of it then go somehwere else and stop flaming. It is not constructive, does not clarify a discussion, and does not persuade others.

morganchaser | 07-21-2009 01:45 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I'm sure there will be plenty of people willing to buy a gold Phil at 90%. The fact that the counterfeit nature of the coin is alleged and not believed to be true seems to me to be a loop hole to what could possibly be a SS sting. However that is a tangent and completely irrelevant because it is unlikely you'll ever be able to find another one of these coins. Either do a water displacement test of the remaining half and post an accurate and precise specific gravity; cut it in to quaters and have the assayer determine what exactly the alloy this thing is filled with is; Post the precise gold content from the assayer; or PM me the police department's phone number and I'll verify the existence of such an investigation. Any of the above would satify me, but your credibility will be shot if under any circumstances you relinguish possession of a sample of the filler alloy. This is a matter of importance way beyond a simple burglary, and surrending all specimen of the magic alloy would be a travesty.

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 07:00 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Well guys I am back from what in fact turned out to be 3 hour dental appointment. Takes a while to have your teeth cleaned, a crown casted, and to sort out all the billing. If you like, I can upload a scan of the $800+ bill, which I had to pay most of in cash since Barry is ineligible to be President and thus can't come up with a way for the taxpayers to foot my dental bills. :favorites21: Anyhow, I thought I'd post some more propaganda: 600DPI scans, thanks to the poster who suggested this. http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/...y/IMG_0002.jpg http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/...y/IMG_0001.jpg Video of the coin being weighed and measured: Note: Before you watch this, I have to admit that I made a little mistake. The day we bought the coin, I measured its thickness as 1.68mm but when I posted, I was going from memory and inverted the numbers... resulting in an incorrect number of 1.86mm. Big difference? Yes, depending on your perspective. I apologize for the mistake, but I did not always have physical possession of either coin and the calipers at the same time, and was having to go off memory. The PD has already been called and are coming over to take this coin into evidence either tonight or tomorrow morning. I think the fact that these are really 1.65 (measurement on this one) -1.68mm (my measurement on the one we cut, which I do not have access to right now), even thinner than we have discussed, is good in that it means the coin would definitely be more noticeable in a Fisch, and that it further limits the possibilities counterfeiters could use for an alloy. In my rather amateur opinion (I am not bad when it comes to scrap gold, but numismatics are not my cup of tea by any means), this takes this coin from the level of "friggin' incredible fake" to "pretty decent fake." I also noticed that the diameter on this one is slightly lower, about 0.03mm. Possibly just user error but it is also possible that the two coins had slightly different specs. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xyGurmUh-u4&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xyGurmUh-u4&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 07:13 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Fermentation (Post 1828267) I'm willing to bite. How do I get one of these coins, and get the money to you? Let's do it. I had my dental appt yesterday, so I'm free. please however seen my a pic or a scan of the coin first. Preferably on your scale, with weight read out, just so we're on the same page. I don't mind taking one of the coins you've cut open, actually that's preferable. i don't mind taking the hit. We should get to the bottom of this, any PM investor would want to know about this potential scam. Thanks in advance.
Still interested? If so, and I can get one of the coins, we can use Escrow.com, or some other well known escrow service. Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1828320) Either do a water displacement test of the remaining half and post an accurate and precise specific gravity; cut it in to quaters and have the assayer determine what exactly the alloy this thing is filled with is; Post the precise gold content from the assayer; or PM me the police department's phone number and I'll verify the existence of such an investigation.
I plan on getting a full assay done if we can retain the other half of the second coin; but I am already walking on a tight rope here and cannot have any wiggle room to temporarily keep a sample if I have a bunch of cowboys calling up the PD and asking them to provide information on open investigations. News flash, guys - the police are not going to give you jack shit about an open investigation. They don't know you, they don't care who you are, and even if they did know you, they are not going to share anything unless you have an absolute need to know. Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1828320) Any of the above would satify me, but your credibility will be shot if under any circumstances you relinguish possession of a sample of the filler alloy. This is a matter of importance way beyond a simple burglary, and surrending all specimen of the magic alloy would be a travesty.
I agree that this is more important than a theft (even a large scale one), but the police don't know that, probably wouldn't care. I am not going to go to jail for withholding evidence just so I can please some doubters at GIM. I will do everything I can to keep either the sample we have, or, even better, a full coin. Pretty soon I'll have to surrender the other coin, in addition to the one waiting on the cops right now. But like I said, I will try to purchase one or more of these from the owner after I've shown him that they are counterfeit. Quote:
Originally Posted by oboshoe (Post 1828179) I'm just curious what agency the SS and FBI have outsourced their counterfeiting investigations too. Must be one hell of a dept.
I've explained this twice now in simple terms a child could understand. You are a complete f*cking moron. Do you even fully read posts you respond to? If you did, we wouldn't be having this "conversation."

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 07:37 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I have to give it to these guys - 480 grains? I mean, damn! They could've still slid by with 479 or 481, most would write that off to the scale...

fasTTcar | 07-21-2009 07:48 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I hate to nit pick, but the scale shot on the video did not show it at zero before the coin was placed on it or after it was removed. Since you claim they are 18k gold and 1 troy ounce, I will offer you $725, which is $10 over 100% melt value. That would give you at least a 7% premium over what you could get for them melting and a $425 profit on your $300 investment. I will buy every coin that you have that weighs 31.1 grams and falls into the official posted dimensions of the mint at that rate.

ds_mustang | 07-21-2009 07:52 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? At 1.65mm thickness it's nearly 18% too thin. That's a good thing for detecting with calipers. Though if it's 18% too thin you'd think it couldn't be 90% gold if it weighs correctly?

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 07:55 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by fasTTcar (Post 1828963) I hate to nit pick, but the scale shot on the video did not show it at zero before the coin was placed on it or after it was removed. Since you claim they are 18k gold and 1 troy ounce, I will offer you $725, which is $10 over 100% melt value. That would give you at least a 7% premium over what you could get for them melting and a $425 profit on your $300 investment. I will buy every coin that you have that weighs 31.1 grams and falls into the official posted dimensions of the mint at that rate.
Um, it did not assay at 18K. It assayed at just over .900. WTF is up with people responding when they haven't even kept up with the thread? Anyway, I will make another video showing the scale at zero before and after. You're right on that point. Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1828969) At 1.65mm thickness it's nearly 18% too thin. That's a good thing for detecting with calipers.
Yeah, the extra .21mm is surely enough to trigger the Fisch test. I feel bad about inverting the numbers, but hey, at least I was right about them being fake. :ARMS1:

OutlawJoseyWalesJr | 07-21-2009 08:09 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Skeptic, in your line of business did you ever come across any fake 1-oz GAE's? Just curious.

fasTTcar | 07-21-2009 08:23 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1828976) Um, it did not assay at 18K. It assayed at just over .900. WTF is up with people responding when they haven't even kept up with the thread? Anyway, I will make another video showing the scale at zero before and after. You're right on that point.
From your very first post, my bold - Quote:
3) Today - several counterfeit "Philharmonic" 1oz coins. Had never even heard of these things before, but research confirms that they are 100 Euro, .999 fine gold coins. Acid tested at 18K but no higher. I damn near filed one of them in half to be sure I got a good sample. Decided to buy two of them as 18K gold and just assume the risk. Passed on the other 8 the guy had on him and 45 he claimed to have at home. The guy claimed to get them from his friend's "uncle." What do you know - 30 minutes later - two thugged out guys come along with some more of these beauties. One claims to get them from (guess) his uncle! Also claimed that his "uncle" gave him a gold bar that he got $50,000 for. If you're going to try to pass counterfeit 1 oz gold coins, don't tell crazy stories and don't dress like you just came from being an extra in a gangsta rap video.
I thought acid never lied. It still does not make sense that the coin is at spec or less and still weighs a full ounce. Offer stands. I will take all you got that falls within mint specs at 18k weight, full melt plus $10 for freight.

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 08:41 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Measurement in grains, showing 0 and 0. 480 when the coin is on the scale. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4F0UCyyYy8M&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4F0UCyyYy8M&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 08:44 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? The guy who said he didn't want to nitpick had a very valid point. You, on the other hand, are really nitpicking here. I got your PM, and no hard feelings, but I think you are trying to twist my words. When I said that acid doesn't lie, I was referring to the fact that the coin could not be 24K (and not even 22K) if the acid melted a sample. I did not claim to know for certain what the gold content was. I was surprised that it was higher than 18K - but I was not surprised to learn that it was not 22K or 24K. It does not make sense, especially since I do not yet know what the alloy is. But what parts of these videos do you dispute? Does the coin in fact weigh 1ozt? Does it in fact have a diameter within the margin of error? And is it not far too thin?

Atahualpa | 07-21-2009 08:45 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I appreciate the scans and video...but I am more perplexed than before because the dimensions are even less than previously stated at 1.65 mm thickness ( 2.0 mm mint spec) and 36.96 mm diameter (37mm mint spec) and 31.1 g (31.103 g mint spec). The alloy is much denser than gold, and much denser than tungsten...WTF is it? Platinum would probably make up for it...but nothing cheap can do it.

fasTTcar | 07-21-2009 08:49 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1829084) It does not make sense, especially since I do not yet know what the alloy is. But what parts of these videos do you dispute? Does the coin in fact weigh 1ozt? Does it in fact have a diameter within the margin of error? And is it not far too thin?
Weigh the coin, measure the coin and then do the acid test at the same time would prove to me that you have something funky on your hands. Again, if the weights and dimensions work out, IMHO it does not make economic sense to fake them.

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 08:51 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by OutlawJoseyWalesJr (Post 1829004) Skeptic, in your line of business did you ever come across any fake 1-oz GAE's? Just curious.
Not that I know of. There was a 1oz Liberty we bought that two dealers independently stated the mintmark and possibly date had been messed with, but we scrapped it as a regular coin and we never heard anything bad. So I suppose the metal content was what it was supposed to be.

igorthesmall | 07-21-2009 08:52 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1827731) Candidates with a yellow color: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowcake "Lead monoxide" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_oxide http://images.google.com/images?q=le...N&hl=en&tab=wi
Somehow I dont think they are using radioactive uranium to counterfeit gold. Maybe the OP should have been using a geiger counter instead of acids to test, hehe.

SilverKestrel | 07-21-2009 08:53 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1828897) " Here is what we have left: 1) half of the first coin we bought, which has been fired 2) the second half of that coin in its "original" condition (and high res pics of the inside of this one will be very telling!) 3) a full, uncut coin that we have been told to take to the police as evidence in their investigation of the theft" AND "I will do everything I can to keep either the sample we have, or, even better, a full coin. Pretty soon I'll have to surrender the other coin, in addition to the one waiting on the cops right now."
I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing that the police department is just waiting for you to bring in evidence to them. It typically works the other way around, detectives come to you, ask or demand that you turn over the evidence, then they fill out the paperwork. They have knowledge that you possess items that likely belong to someone else, so they have a legal responsibility to secure it as soon as they can. It also gives them an opportunity to "look around" for other things. Maybe they want to review your "books" for names, other evidence, etc. You might be a real nice guy and fully cooperating with the police, but I still can't see them waiting for you to bring the goods to them.

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 09:00 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverKestrel (Post 1829096) I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing that the police department is just waiting for you to bring in evidence to them. It typically works the other way around, detectives come to you, ask or demand that you turn over the evidence, then they fill out the paperwork. They have knowledge that you possess items that likely belong to someone else, so they have a legal responsibility to secure it as soon as they can. It also gives them an opportunity to "look around" for other things. Maybe they want to review your "books" for names, other evidence, etc. You might be a real nice guy and fully cooperating with the police, but I still can't see them waiting for you to bring the goods to them.
The police do not expect us to keep a 30 day backlog, which would amount to tens of thousands of dollars in gold, at a cart in the mall. They know that we keep things in a safe deposit box, and we were given a card and told to bring the gold to them. I was not there at the time and don't know further details about the conversation. But I do know that they looked through our records and copied the one involving the coin. They already had multiple people in custody at that time and I don't think them having the coin within 5 minutes makes or breaks their case. I'm sure there is still work to do for them; but we are not exactly top priority.

TheSkeptic | 07-21-2009 09:03 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by fasTTcar (Post 1829089) Weigh the coin, measure the coin and then do the acid test at the same time would prove to me that you have something funky on your hands. Again, if the weights and dimensions work out, IMHO it does not make economic sense to fake them.
I have NEVER said this thing makes a whole lot of sense. I cannot figure out a financial incentive to create 90% 24K coins either, especially if you are using more expensive metals as an alloy. But let's start with the videos - are they fake? Are the measurements or weights fake? How am I fooling you guys in the videos?

mamboni | 07-21-2009 09:28 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Your coin specs out at: dia. 36.96 mm wt. 31.1 grams (1.00 ounce) thickness 1.65 mm This calculates out to a specific gravity of 1.21 times that of pure gold. You say the coin assayed 90% gold. Then the other 10% of the coin would have to have a specific gravity of 3.1 times that of gold. There is no such element in periodic table. This whole story sounds too fantastic to be true.:confused_ma:

Private_Pyle | 07-21-2009 09:48 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Not really. It's actually 10% not gold in the outer layer plus the inner disk of unknown material. We don't know the actual size of the inner disk, so we cannot calculate the exact specific gravity. This is either a great hoax or a great tale. Sometime the truth is stranger than fiction, but only rarely. Either way I look forward to reading more.

mamboni | 07-21-2009 09:55 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Private_Pyle (Post 1829220) Not really. It's actually 10% not gold in the outer layer plus the inner disk of unknown material. We don't know the actual size of the inner disk, so we cannot calculate the exact specific gravity. This is either a great hoax or a great tale. Sometime the truth is stranger than fiction, but only rarely. Either way I look forward to reading more.
My calculation is a best case scenario: the other material would at minimum have a specific gravity that is 3.1 times gold, whether the coin is homogeneous or heterogeneous in composition. I have some years training and experience in analytical chemistry - this is very basic stuff.

Bob | 07-21-2009 10:06 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I don't think it's a best case scenario. I think your scenario assumes both coins are flat disks. In actuality, it depends on if the actual coin should have more indentation than the fake has or not. I did a quick calc and, for dia. 36.96 mm wt. 31.1 grams (1.00 ounce) thickness 1.65 mm the coin has a specific gravity of 17.5. Of course, that ignores any indentations. Your calculation assumed it was indented in the same proportions as the original (I think). Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1829229) My calculation is a best case scenario: the other material would at minimum have a specific gravity that is 3.1 times gold, whether the coin is homogeneous or heterogeneous in composition. I have some years training and experience in analytical chemistry - this is very basic stuff.

BoatingAccident | 07-21-2009 10:08 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1829229) My calculation is a best case scenario: the other material would at minimum have a specific gravity that is 3.1 times gold, whether the coin is homogeneous or heterogeneous in composition. I have some years training and experience in analytical chemistry - this is very basic stuff.
Add to that, I believe the original poster stated he acid tested the inside of the coin, the one that he filed section out of. This whole thread is fascinating, terrifying, and just all around confusing to me. But, I'm learning a lot from this. To make that good of a fake coin, takes effort, time, equipment...why do that for bullion? Could they be 'testing' their skills before tackling numismatic coins? It would be great to know what that other metal was. This whole thing could be huge, once the Austrian mint gets wind of it.

fasTTcar | 07-21-2009 10:13 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1829123) But let's start with the videos - are they fake? Are the measurements or weights fake? How am I fooling you guys in the videos?
I could video myself taking measurements and weighing a Phil pretty easily. I do not want to dig the Phil I have up though (literally). I am sure it would weight exactly 31.1 grams and have the proper dimensions. It would be much more interesting to show that exact same coin failing a 22k test. Show me that, and your point is proven. Otherwise, it looks like you just filmed a nice coin that you bought cheap.

Fermentation | 07-21-2009 10:16 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by fasTTcar (Post 1828963) I hate to nit pick, but the scale shot on the video did not show it at zero before the coin was placed on it or after it was removed. Since you claim they are 18k gold and 1 troy ounce, I will offer you $725, which is $10 over 100% melt value. That would give you at least a 7% premium over what you could get for them melting and a $425 profit on your $300 investment. I will buy every coin that you have that weighs 31.1 grams and falls into the official posted dimensions of the mint at that rate.
i'll take the same deal and math. Works for me at 90%. What say you?

Bob | 07-21-2009 10:19 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? The point is the coins is claimed to be thinner than a real one should be (1.65mm vs 2mm) I'm a bit concerned about the dimension measurements here. It looks to me like the measurement of the thickness is being taken inside the rim where the coin is thinner. Quote:
Originally Posted by fasTTcar (Post 1829262) I could video myself taking measurements and weighing a Phil pretty easily. I do not want to dig the Phil I have up though (literally). I am sure it would weight exactly 31.1 grams and have the proper dimensions. It would be much more interesting to show that exact same coin failing a 22k test. Show me that, and your point is proven. Otherwise, it looks like you just filmed a nice coin that you bought cheap.

Fermentation | 07-21-2009 10:24 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1828969) At 1.65mm thickness it's nearly 18% too thin. That's a good thing for detecting with calipers. Though if it's 18% too thin you'd think it couldn't be 90% gold if it weighs correctly?
Humm, lets's see. Thanks the OP, for a bs video not zeroed out the scale, which proves nothing. 69 posts, join date May 19. Humm, maybe I'm just paranoid, probaly nothing, I'm going back to sleep. Although, If i were truly paranoid i would think that ds mustang was your alternate ego. Your writing style is the same too. But like i said, I'm just a tin foil hat, paranoid, SKEPTIC. i apologize mustang if I'm wrong and time will tell.

Fermentation | 07-21-2009 10:32 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1829085) I appreciate the scans and video...but I am more perplexed than before because the dimensions are even less than previously stated at 1.65 mm thickness ( 2.0 mm mint spec) and 36.96 mm diameter (37mm mint spec) and 31.1 g (31.103 g mint spec). The alloy is much denser than gold, and much denser than tungsten...WTF is it? Platinum would probably make up for it...but nothing cheap can do it.
SKEPTOBAMA, where's that damn birth certificate, by birth certificate i mean Secret Service report, this treasury business, not the local county sheriff or police department. i want to see that birth certificate. :favorites8::favorites8::favorites8::favorites8::f avorites8::favorites8:

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- - Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=392148)

mamboni | 07-21-2009 10:49 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1829250) I don't think it's a best case scenario. I think your scenario assumes both coins are flat disks. In actuality, it depends on if the actual coin should have more indentation than the fake has or not. I did a quick calc and, for dia. 36.96 mm wt. 31.1 grams (1.00 ounce) thickness 1.65 mm the coin has a specific gravity of 17.5. Of course, that ignores any indentations. Your calculation assumed it was indented in the same proportions as the original (I think).
Look, let's not quibble about a difference of a couple of percent. Given the specs provided by the OP, that coin is a physical impossibility. And, if the thickness was measured incorrectly and is actually 2mm, and the coin is really 90% gold alloy as stated, then it represents a pointless exercise in making a fake coin that is more costly than the real coin. I'm getting this terrible feeling - that this entire thread is much to do over nothing. Sorry "TheSkeptic" but you've made one out of me.:mad_m:

AZLiberty | 07-21-2009 11:59 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I'm thinking they are real (but stolen). Possibly some surface contaminant is throwing off the acid test...?

TheSkeptic | 07-22-2009 12:27 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I've wasted too much time with this already. From here on out, I will not respond to your post if: it looks like it was written by a 3rd grader. it is intended only to flame or talk about how unconvincing the evidence is, and not to advance the conversation with logical points. you clearly have not watched both videos (Fermentation) or have not carefully read preceding posts (too many to call by name). There are way too many obnoxious drive-by commentators here. RTF thread, all of it, in detail, before you go spouting your opinion. You may have missed something important in your haste to look genius. Now, for those of you who who given me the pleasure of a great discussion and are making valid points, here are some honest questions I think are very relevant: If I have a disc of .999 gold measuring 37mm by 0.35mm, what would it weigh? If it would weigh even 1 grain, then how can 0.35mm be a physically possible "tolerance" allowed by the Austrian Mint? From a purely financial standpoint, there is no apparent reason to counterfeit a .999 coin with .900 and some other, more expensive metal. But are there possible motives other than financial gain to do so? Why have warring nations routinely counterfeited each other's currencies? I repeat - what am I faking now? The weight? The thickness? The diameter? Do the videos do nothing to establish these specs?

Voodoo | 07-22-2009 12:32 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Mamboni, You made a perfectly good calculation but I believe you made an incorrect assumption. That the entire coin tested 90% gold. This is not true. He said that the gold layer tested at 90% but that there was a small disk inside the coin. Correct? I've only just skimmed through the whole thread before work. Iridium (1.16 x spec grav of gold) is about the only metal that would be cheap enough, not really sure about price or ability to make disks, in order to get the correct weight. So lets guess that the gold alloy has a specific gravity around 18.5 or so. By my tired late night calculations we could get the right weight with an Iridium disk that was about 20% of the total weight of the coin. This also puts the amount of gold in the coin at about 22.4g. Still this seems highly unlikely for somebody to go through this trouble. However, perhaps the only people that would make since in this are some unsavory folk who would not only like to stretch their limited gold reserves to meet the demand and all the while making people worried about buying gold and getting scammed. Hmmm, does anyone know these types who might also know some good coin producers... Just wondering.

fasTTcar | 07-22-2009 12:35 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? The whole argument can be solved by putting all your claims on one continuous video clip. Weight it, measure it and acid test it. If all 3 do what you have claimed, you have a fantastic story that will change the bullion market. And I will pay you DOUBLE spot price for that coin. Right now, it is only a fantastic story.

TheSkeptic | 07-22-2009 12:42 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Voodoo (Post 1829475) Mamboni, You made a perfectly good calculation but I believe you made an incorrect assumption. That the entire coin tested 90% gold. This is not true. He said that the gold layer tested at 90% but that there was a small disk inside the coin. Correct? I've only just skimmed through the whole thread before work. Iridium (1.16 x spec grav of gold) is about the only metal that would be cheap enough, not really sure about price or ability to make disks, in order to get the correct weight. So lets guess that the gold alloy has a specific gravity around 18.5 or so. By my tired late night calculations we could get the right weight with an Iridium disk that was about 20% of the total weight of the coin. This also puts the amount of gold in the coin at about 22.4g.
I'm not sure here, but if your definition of "disc" is a pure disc of some other, denser metal, then there is no disc. We cut one of the coins in half. There is a definite difference in color under magnification, but it runs throughout the center of the coin, it isn't a small concentrated area. Quote:
Originally Posted by fasTTcar (Post 1829479) The whole argument can be solved by putting all your claims on one continuous video clip. Weight it, measure it and acid test it. If all 3 do what you have claimed, you have a fantastic story that will change the bullion market. And I will pay you DOUBLE spot price for that coin. Right now, it is only a fantastic story.
I will try to do that tomorrow. Like I said, I have already wasted a lot of time with this, not to mention that I have purposely delayed turning over evidence we have been asked to give up by a police department we need to be on good terms with. If they have not picked up the coin by tomorrow evening when I am back in that direction (I live about 30 minutes away from where it is right now), I will do it. The video will be about 5 minutes long or so, because when I tried today, it took a while for the acid to eat through the sample. But the whole point should be moot, because even assuming my thickness measurement was a little off and the coin is really, say, 1.75mm (it is DEFINITELY not 2mm), are you really going to sit here and say that a 37x.25mm disc of .999 is weightless? Not even 1 grain? I think you see the implication here. So go dig out and video all the Phils you want. It doesn't change the obvious truth one that weighs the exact same amount as yours but is noticeably thinner.

Fermentation | 07-22-2009 12:59 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) now he's not dealing with our (my) third grade posts. He's buying time to post his fake evidence. This a serious matter, I care not what you think of me. Show us the damn goods buddy. I wonder if the Austrian mint would be interested in this thread and your claims.Maybe they'll sue you for fraud and defamng their products, would could arguably cause them to lose sells in the future. maybe we should send this thread over to the Austrians, they seem pretty thorough to me, I'm sure they would be interested in this matter as it would affect their profit margin IF WHAT YOU SAY IS TRUE! If you're lying, you're potentially causing them money, and I'm sure they would want to know that too. Don't you think? Anyone reading this, and taking you seriously would question their buillon investments in Philarmonic. And why in the hell would thugs/rednecks have philharmonic fake coins OF ALL THE COINS ONE WOULD CHOSE TO Counterfeit or hustle? WHY? How many Redneck rap thugs as you described them can even spell Philharmonic, least of all know the value of such a thing. Even my well travelled, wealthy boss, hasn't seen one or would know the value of such a thing. Why not counterfiet GAE, Krugs or a more well known coin? YOU SIR ARE A GOD DAMNED LIAR! PERIOD! GET OFF THIS BOARD! I'll admit one thing, I've been a real azzhole about this, but yeah I'm an azzhole, evident by some of my smart azz threads and posts around here.Everyone knows that by now. Bu you SIR, have played upon the trust, sympathy, empathy, and kindness of some Gimmers I personally respect. That disgusts me to no end, so someone has to be the azzhole and call you out, because most GIMMERS are too kind and respectful to deal with a two bit hustler like you. So I'll take the hit for the team, and if I'm wrong I will apologize publicly in a separate thread. Smelly troll! Show me the damn birth certficate SKEPTObama, just show me!

TheSkeptic | 07-22-2009 01:14 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? i don't know, i reck'n i ain't got no clue what them redneck thugs was a' doin' with 'em. 'cause looking back, you know, and actually readin' the thread and all, i just can't find where anyone explained that. it's just not there, i say. damn! maybe if i go back and read it again, my ignorant, simple ass can find somethin'... but then again, my spellin', why it ain't so great, and i reck'n neither is my gramm'r or readin' comp-re-hension. and i shore hate all these big fancy scientific words everybody 'a wants t' be usin'. so that's why i don't always like to read the thread, 'cuz if the answer was back in thar, i might'n not even see it. i just say what i feel, and tell it straight, like i been taught.

mamboni | 07-22-2009 01:15 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Can the thickness of the coin be corroborated by another method of measurement? It is the critical dimension at this point.

Bob | 07-22-2009 01:16 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1829490) But the whole point should be moot, because even assuming my thickness measurement was a little off and the coin is really, say, 1.75mm (it is DEFINITELY not 2mm), are you really going to sit here and say that a 37x.25mm disc of .999 is weightless? Not even 1 grain? I think you see the implication here. So go dig out and video all the Phils you want. It doesn't change the obvious truth one that weighs the exact same amount as yours but is noticeably thinner.
I'd like to see a video of the thickness of the rim of the coin. From what I saw, the thickness inside the coin is 1.65, but what about the rim?

TheSkeptic | 07-22-2009 01:18 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1829540) Can the thickness of the coin be corroborated by another method of measurement? It is the critical dimension at this point.
Can you recommend any tools? I will be glad to try what I can. The good thing is that the coin that has been cut and half fired is not with us right now, and I probably still have a few days I can stall before turning that one over. The one from the video will probably be in evidence tomorrow. But even with the half, I can re-measure thickness. I'm still very anxious to hear opinions on what something along the lines of 37mmX.35mm of .999 would weigh.

numismatation | 07-22-2009 01:19 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? TheSkeptic, My queustion is why do you care so much about the forums opinion. From your initial "we buy at 30%" post to your "I found fake phils" post, you seem to put so much effort to respond and prove yourself. Personally, I would have said "Whatever everyone!! Pttff" and gave up on trying to convince anyone. Now this being said, I'm sure others will see positive and negative reasons for you doing this.

TheSkeptic | 07-22-2009 01:20 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1829542) I'd like to see a video of the thickness of the rim of the coin. From what I saw, the thickness inside the coin is 1.65, but what about the rim?
The thickness at the rim is 1.65. I don't see any indentations on the coin rim, so isn't it safe to assume that the calipers stopped there and did not press in so hard that I got an inaccurate measurement?

Atahualpa | 07-22-2009 01:22 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Try measuring that coin using the tips of the calipers...that is the part you measure with, not the middle. That could screw the whole thing up.

Bob | 07-22-2009 01:23 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1829546) Can you recommend any tools? I will be glad to try what I can. The good thing is that the coin that has been cut and half fired is not with us right now, and I probably still have a few days I can stall before turning that one over. The one from the video will probably be in evidence tomorrow. But even with the half, I can re-measure thickness. I'm still very anxious to hear opinions on what something along the lines of 37mmX.35mm of .999 would weigh.
The same tool you used. If you look at about 1:25 in your first video, you're clamping on the inside of the coin (the micrometer is avoiding the coin rim). The micrometer has a ledge cutout on the inside of the tool. If you put the micrometer so that it clamps on the rim, you should get a thicker measurement. I don't know how to explain it better without pictures.

TheSkeptic | 07-22-2009 01:23 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by numismatation (Post 1829547) TheSkeptic, My queustion is why do you care so much about the forums opinion. From your initial "we buy at 30%" post to your "I found fake phils" post, you seem to put so much effort to respond and prove yourself. Personally, I would have said "Whatever everyone!! Pttff" and gave up on trying to convince anyone. Now this being said, I'm sure others will see positive and negative reasons for you doing this.
Partly because I love a good discussion. Partly because I am very honest and passionate in my opinions. Partly because I strongly believe that people should be building up PM stashes, and buying scrap way below spot is the cheapest way to do it. Partly because these coins fascinate me, and I think they are very important. Partly because I really enjoy learning, and am irritated by some of the jackasses here who think they have seen everything and know everything. But mostly because I am paid $963.54 per week by the CIA to manipulate the bullion markets with hotly contested statements that no one really believes. :111:

TheSkeptic | 07-22-2009 01:25 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1829556) Try measuring that coin using the tips of the calipers...that is the part you measure with, not the middle. That could screw the whole thing up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1829557) The same tool you used. If you look at about 1:25 in your first video, you're clamping on the inside of the coin (the micrometer is avoiding the coin rim). The micrometer has a ledge cutout on the inside of the tool. If you put the micrometer so that it clamps on the rim, you should get a thicker measurement.
How much difference do you think it would make? Maybe my first number (1.86mm) was right, and I just thought I had gotten the numbers inverted. It's a stretch, but I will measure the diameter again, whether it is on the whole coin tomorrow, or the half coin in a few days when we go back. And am I also doing this in the second video? Good night all. P.S. Just for kicks - can someone please give an educated guess on what, say 37X0.35mm or even 37X0.25mm of .999 would weigh?

Bob | 07-22-2009 01:31 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1829560) How much difference do you think it would make? Maybe my first number (1.86mm) was right, and I just thought I had gotten the numbers inverted. It's a stretch, but I will measure the diameter again, whether it is on the whole coin tomorrow, or the half coin in a few days when we go back. Good night all. P.S. Just for kicks - can someone please give an educated guess on what, say 37X0.35mm or even 37X0.25mm of .999 would weigh?
Umm, we can give an exact guess. Gold is 19.3 g/cm^3. Just calculate the volume. The first one has a volume of 0.376 cm^3 meaning a mass of 7.3 g. The second has a volume of 0.269 cm^3 meaning a mass of 5.2 g.

numismatation | 07-22-2009 01:31 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1829558) Partly because I love a good discussion. Partly because I am very honest and passionate in my opinions. Partly because I strongly believe that people should be building up PM stashes, and buying scrap way below spot is the cheapest way to do it. Partly because these coins fascinate me, and I think they are very important. Partly because I really enjoy learning, and am irritated by some of the jackasses here who think they have seen everything and know everything. But mostly because I am paid $963.54 per week by the CIA to manipulate the bullion markets with hotly contested statements that no one really believes. :111:
WHAT 963.54!!! they only pay me 756.32 LOL!!! I'm talking to my handler!!!

Fermentation | 07-22-2009 02:02 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1829537) i don't know, i reck'n i ain't got no clue what them redneck thugs was a' doin' with 'em. 'cause looking back, you know, and actually readin' the thread and all, i just can't find where anyone explained that. it's just not there, i say. damn! maybe if i go back and read it again, my ignorant, simple ass can find somethin'... but then again, my spellin', why it ain't so great, and i reck'n neither is my gramm'r or readin' comp-re-hension. and i shore hate all these big fancy scientific words everybody 'a wants t' be usin'. so that's why i don't always like to read the thread, 'cuz if the answer was back in thar, i might'n not even see it. i just say what i feel, and tell it straight, like i been taught.
let me help, since most liars can't usually remember the lies they tell. This is a quote from your very first 1st post on page 1: ." What do you know - 30 minutes later - two thugged out guys come along with some more of these beauties. One claims to get them from (guess) his uncle! Also claimed that his "uncle" gave him a gold bar that he got $50,000 for. If you're going to try to pass counterfeit 1 oz gold coins, don't tell crazy stories and don't dress like you just came from being an extra in a gangsta rap video. See where you say they say thugged out guys and gangsta rap video. That would be the thug reference, you lying piece of maggot excretement. Also see on page 1, your 8th post: And to be frank, they all looked like white trash. One of the guys in the first group was black and looked pretty ghetto... just being blunt here See where you say white trash ( not verbatim redneck, but close enough) some people interchange white trash and redneck - then you go on to mention the black thug.Not verbatim redneck, but you know it's close enough, you lying sack of gangrene pus . It's close enough! as i said earlier Thou PROTESTS TOO MUCH!!!!! One other thing, when was the last time you guys saw white trash and black thugs hanging out together, pushing fake gold coins?:111::cry1: yeah I can see it now, Snoop Dog and Bubba, chilling in the mall together selling Fake Philharmonics!:cry1: two bad mutha uckers! huh? Which city is this again?:cry1: :signs14: This is AN EPIC FAIL, no matter how much evidence and fake pictures and etc you try to conjure up. I'll always see you as a two bit liar. so will many others. Better to not post again, and assume your new identity, maybe you're mustang with 69 posts ? Did you learn anything? :wavey:

ds_mustang | 07-22-2009 02:50 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Fermentation (Post 1829277) Humm, lets's see. Thanks the OP, for a bs video not zeroed out the scale, which proves nothing. 69 posts, join date May 19. Humm, maybe I'm just paranoid, probaly nothing, I'm going back to sleep. Although, If i were truly paranoid i would think that ds mustang was your alternate ego. Your writing style is the same too. But like i said, I'm just a tin foil hat, paranoid, SKEPTIC. i apologize mustang if I'm wrong and time will tell.
Keep your day job Sherlock. See my other interaction with him on this other thread if you think I'm his puppet. Despite my opinion of what he does for a living, he's actually contributing very useful information in this thread. And that's a lot more than I can say for you.

morganchaser | 07-22-2009 03:12 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? First of all I'd like to thank TheSkeptic for humoring us so far. The second video is pretty hard to argue with. Give the cops a real philharmonic and bury this fake somewhere with your cellphone off and the battery removed. I'm too lazy to do the math, but clearly: something F'ed up is going on here, and I'm at a loss for words for what in the hell type of magic material is inside of this coin. Samples of the coin need to be taken to a metalurgist/university with a arc spectrometer and the metal content must be analyzed.

numismatation | 07-22-2009 03:30 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Fermentation (Post 1829596) See where you say they say thugged out guys and gangsta rap video. That would be the thug reference, you lying piece of maggot excretement. you lying sack of gangrene pus
Dammmmmm.. And I thought I was blunt

morganchaser | 07-22-2009 04:25 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? TheSkeptic is within his rights to complain about personal attacks on that one. It's up to him on if he wants to excercise it.

OrangeJuice | 07-22-2009 04:51 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1829663) TheSkeptic is within his rights to complain about personal attacks on that one. It's up to him on if he wants to excercise it.
I agree. 'Fermentation' should be banned for the way he insults other users.

numismatation | 07-22-2009 04:56 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Who cares, Theskeptic shouldn't sweat it. Funny that we tell our kids the line "sticks and stones......." But the adult generally don't follow it :36_1_25:

OrangeJuice | 07-22-2009 05:26 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1829560) P.S. Just for kicks - can someone please give an educated guess on what, say 37X0.35mm or even 37X0.25mm of .999 would weigh?
A solid disk of 37mm x .35 mm of 999 gold would weight: surface: 3.141592 * (3.7 cm/2) * (3.7 cm/2) = 10.7521 cm(2) height : 0.035 cm volume: surface * height = 0.3763 cm(3) weight: 19.30g / cm(3) * 0.3763 cm(3) = 7.2630 g In the case of a normal phili, if it was a solid and plain 9999 gold disk, it would be: surface: 3.141592 * (3.7 cm/2) * (3.7 cm/2) = 10.7521 cm(2) height : 0.2 cm volume: surface * height = 2.150 cm(3) weight: 19.30g / cm(3) * 1.505 cm(3) = 41.503 g But because the coin field is less than 2 mm (the field is less thick), and less wide (the ridded edge is not plain) it gets lower than 41.5g. Now that I look at it, does anyone has a real gold philharmonic coin that can test its specifications? I'm starting to think that the Austrian mint official specs are quite approximative. Now, if the phili would be .900 gold instead of 9999, and 1.65 mm thick. Assuming a solid disk, and the .100 part made of silver, that would make it: surface: 3.141592 * (3.696 cm/2) * (3.696 cm/2) = 10.7288 cm(2) height : 0.165 cm volume: surface * height = 1.7702 cm(3) density of .900 gold, .100 silver: = (19.30g / cm(3) * 0.900 + 10.49g/cm(3) * 0.100 = 18.419 g/cm(3) weight: 18.419 g/cm(3) * 1.7702 cm(3) = 32.606 g Now, accomodate for the lower field and rim, and you can easily reach 31g, a full troy oz. You can see that a .900 gold coin can be made into a phili disc spec (even thinner), but with a higher field than the genuine article, and still be real .900 gold. I think that's the solution of the puzzle. . Now, if that's true, the .900 phili should have the field much higher than the genuine article, and less relief. Can someone post a high resolution scan of an (alleged) real austrian gold philharmonic coin? Lets take a Gold Maple for example, according to the official specs are 30 mm wide, 2.87 mm thick, so it makes, if it were a solid gold disk: surface: 3.141592 * (3.0 cm/2) * (3.0 cm/2) = 7.06858 cm(2) height : 0.287 cm volume: surface * height = 2.0286 cm(3) weight: 19.30g / cm(3) * 2.0286 cm(3) = 39.15 g, which is less than the phili specs, but still leaves a wide margin for the depressed field. Now, the 1 million dollar question, who would go out of their way to produce such .900 fake phili?

rodzm | 07-22-2009 05:35 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeJuice (Post 1829675) I agree. 'Fermentation' should be banned for the way he insults other users.
Count me in on the vote, those insults were uncalled for. Hell any insult to another user is uncalled for. Way out of hand

OrangeJuice | 07-22-2009 05:36 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Now, how to protect oneself against such fakes? Easy: only buy .9999 gold coin, and acid test them: Since they -should be- .9999, it won't damage the coin, and it will prove that - at least the surface - is .9999

Scorpio | 07-22-2009 07:19 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? That's enough already, thread closed.

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Scorpio | 07-22-2009 09:53 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? By popular request, and a prior agreement to knock off the personal attacks, the thread is reopened. The first one to break the rules, and any successors will be banned permanently, as I don't have the time to play games. Gracias' Scorp

Gordon Gekko | 07-22-2009 10:06 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I find it extremely disappointing/sad that a thread that began with the OP sharing his/her concerns for counterfeit coins somehow resulted in a member calling the OP a "lying piece of maggot excretement" and a "lying sack of gangrene pus". I honestly feel like I am in the twilight zone. :confused_ma:

TheSkeptic | 07-22-2009 10:09 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio (Post 1831073) By popular request, and a prior agreement to knock off the personal attacks, the thread is reopened. The first one to break the rules, and any successors will be banned permanently, as I don't have the time to play games. Gracias' Scorp
Thanks for reopening the thread.

TheSkeptic | 07-22-2009 10:11 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Just trying to consolidate the discussion here, there are now at least 3 threads discussing these coins. The one you're now reading, this one, and this one. Maybe we can put this all together...

mamboni | 07-22-2009 10:26 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? It's too late for me Scorp! You didn't stop it in time. Now I have contracted that dreaded malady Aurophilharmonicafakocoinophobia. :bawling::bawling::bawling: Perhaps a dose of colloidal silver might help?

oboshoe | 07-22-2009 11:56 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Agree. Thanks for re-opening the thread. While I stand by my opinions expressed up thread, I prefer to see these play themselves out. At minimum. Its more entertaining than most threads.

Fermentation | 07-23-2009 12:58 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by oboshoe (Post 1831270) Agree. Thanks for re-opening the thread. While I stand by my opinions expressed up thread, I prefer to see these play themselves out. At minimum. Its more entertaining than most threads.
Double ditto. I stand by my comments, irrespective of those offended. I have no time for tom foolery. we have no idea if someone is casing the joint or otherwise? just don't know, so to all you supporters, put him on your buddy list, and put me on your ignore list. fair enough. let's see how this plays out. this reminds me of a guy I worked with at a mental health facility for kids,a day camp. One guy, a old bus driver, always pulled this one little girl named shay into back rooms, to play with her. i kept mentioning this was odd behavior to everyone, everyone just made excuses, gave the guy "the benefit of the doubt". i kept watching, noticed he loved rubbing his hands down her back, as if he was massaging with kindness,which again, I thought was odd and reported it. Again, everyone, "oh, he's just an old guy who's being grandfatherly, relax dude,to which i replied it's not his grand daughter. Weeks and months passed, everyone just giving the benefit of doubt to what to me was an obvious pedophile or one with potential, should be watched. 6 months later I demanded someone do something, well they threatened firing me, i couldn't believe it, i was a 19 year old kid, learning about life, and people having no integrity and lots of apathy, and not wanting to rock the ship because it makes everyone uncomfortable. well a month later, our boss decides to dig deeper, what do you know , the guy was a known pedophile in his community! obviously he made a big stink, said he was gonna sue, got in my face, but I stood resolute. Everyone, just sheep, standing around doing nothing, but getting alone to get along. My boss got fire too, for not acting quicker, and the odd thing, even in the end, I WAS THE BAD GUY. simply beautiful, confirmed pedophile, gets outed, and I'm the one who cause all the problems. i learned a lot about life and people, I lost some innocence that summer. At any rate, this what's wrong with America, we're not stupid, we seat around watching a lie, seeing a lie, encouraging a lie, against our better judgements, and no one says anything. There are no more Thomas jefferson's in this country. None. everyone seating around eating cheese doodles and drinking Pepsi cola, revolution around the corner they say, internet warriors. Well go ahead and sit on your duffs, and do nothing. At least i call a spade a spade. Same disease allows this country to accept Ben Bernake, and Goldman Sachs, there's really no difference between what happens at the micro level and the macro level. Garbage in, Garbage out. some of you don't even see the obvious similarities between a culture that allows a person to get a way with what seems like a harmless lie, and getting use to the govt., the banks, Big Pharma, Big business,and Wall Street lying to us. The TV lying to us. A nation of liars, and liar enablers we've become. Now we all believe the lies, despite better judgement, we actually believe the lies. They say if you tell a BIG LIE long enough, it becomes the truth. Wow! They start young (liars & lies) people, we as a community have an obligation to grab the little liars when they're young and start em off right., let them know what they've done won't be tolerated. otherwise you encourage this mess, this is training for Wall street in my book. We reap what we sow. and yes, i could have been kinder, but I'm arrogant straight shooter. No apologies! I have my faults. carry on with your revolution.

AGRO | 07-23-2009 01:33 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? No one, I notice this more and more on this board lately. (2 users banned tonight... If not more.) Simply put, if one user does not like another user's or OP's thread they have entered, post your reason, (if you feel a need) then don't click the thread. Why come back? Each person is given the same PRIVILEGE, to post as another. No matter donation or not. (High donating members get perma-banned just the same as reg. users do) Don't get this confused. The only people that have a right to post on this GOLD & SILVER FORUM are the owners and operators. Every one else is given a PRIVILEGE and a chance. Don't like a thread, start your own. Maybe even about why. This is not High-School. Goodnight. Be well. AGRO-

croc | 07-23-2009 01:45 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? well, I quite like Mamboni's theory. Crooked from the mint......... now that is good tin hat stuff, lol Hopefully we will hear an assay report soon and find out what is really happening

j-son | 07-23-2009 08:30 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? i've been reading this thread and i too am curious what the assay comes back with...but all of these threads are using posted measurements of what the philharmonic should be....has anyone else actually measured/weighed/calipered one of their own to see if the posted weights/measurements are correct? maybe thats the problem all along.

TheSkeptic | 07-23-2009 09:40 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? In another one of these Phil threads, someone did measure what is believed to be a real one (who knows anymore :biggrin:), and it was about the same thickness as mine. However, I highly doubt that even the rim of mine is close to 2mm. Will try to confirm this today.

mamboni | 07-23-2009 09:42 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by croc (Post 1831437) well, I quite like Mamboni's theory. Crooked from the mint......... now that is good tin hat stuff, lol Hopefully we will hear an assay report soon and find out what is really happening
Hey bud, you like that theory? Here's another that might require a lead foil hat: Maybe TheSkeptic's smelter friend snuck into TheSkeptic's place of work while TheSkeptic was off for the day, and spiked all of his acid test solutions with a wee bit of Aqua Regia. Now, all of the gold TheSkeptic tests appears just a few carats less than it is. Everyone is happy: the customer is just getting hosed with a slightly bigger hose; TheSkeptic is none the wiser and still making the same obscene profit margin; and the smelter guy can now afford to pay for those heavy metal toxicity treatments from all the fumes he has to breath. If that's not twisted enough for ya', gimme time: I'll think of another.:elefant:

TheSkeptic | 07-23-2009 09:55 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? :111: :111:

Willie Peter | 07-23-2009 10:18 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Just got a response back from The Austrian Mint regarding an inquiry about the thickness of a Gold Philarmonic coin; "Dear Sir, Unfortunately, we are not allowed - for security reasons - to give the tolerance range of the specifications of the gold or silver coins out of our house. We can assure you, only .9999 Gold leaves - in the gold philharmonic coin- our house. Most important is, as I mentioned, the weight of the coin. There we have only a tolerance in favour of our customers. At least one oz. The thickness can vary - mainly of course in the face of the coin - the average is measured at the rim. There it should be 1.9 mm. (for a gold philharmonic coin, 1 oz) Thank you for appreciating our products! Best regards Johann Hanslmaier Direct Marketing M�NZE �STERREICH AG AM HEUMARKT 1 * 1031 WIEN * �STERREICH * POSTFACH 181 TELEFON +43 1 717 15-165 * johann.hanslmaier@Austrian-Mint.at * www.austrian-mint.at Firmenbuch Nr. FN 55543g, Handelsgericht Wien, UID-Nr.: ATU 37114706, ARA-Nr.: 7352, DVR: 0558826 -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Gesendet: Donnerstag, 23. Juli 2009 02:08 An: Hanslmaier Johann Betreff: Query So gathered from that, it may be helpful to measure the thickness at the rim of the coin

SLV>GLD | 07-23-2009 10:44 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? So far, I have been very unimpressed with the Austrian mint's degree of professionalism in responses. Enough so that I am inclined to no longer purchase their coins regardless of the end seller. I'm not entirely convinced that the Mamboni Theory is completely off-base.

mamboni | 07-23-2009 11:03 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 1831818) So far, I have been very unimpressed with the Austrian mint's degree of professionalism in responses. Enough so that I am inclined to no longer purchase their coins regardless of the end seller. I'm not entirely convinced that the Mamboni Theory is completely off-base.
Pfft, easy for you to say:

OrangeJuice | 07-23-2009 11:20 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Peter (Post 1831776) Just got a response back from The Austrian Mint regarding an inquiry about the thickness of a Gold Philarmonic coin; "Dear Sir, Unfortunately, we are not allowed - for security reasons - to give the tolerance range of the specifications of the gold or silver coins out of our house. We can assure you, only .9999 Gold leaves - in the gold philharmonic coin- our house. Most important is, as I mentioned, the weight of the coin. There we have only a tolerance in favour of our customers. At least one oz. The thickness can vary - mainly of course in the face of the coin - the average is measured at the rim. There it should be 1.9 mm. (for a gold philharmonic coin, 1 oz) Thank you for appreciating our products! Best regards Johann Hanslmaier Direct Marketing M�NZE �STERREICH AG AM HEUMARKT 1 * 1031 WIEN * �STERREICH * POSTFACH 181 TELEFON +43 1 717 15-165 * johann.hanslmaier@Austrian-Mint.at * www.austrian-mint.at Firmenbuch Nr. FN 55543g, Handelsgericht Wien, UID-Nr.: ATU 37114706, ARA-Nr.: 7352, DVR: 0558826 -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Gesendet: Donnerstag, 23. Juli 2009 02:08 An: Hanslmaier Johann Betreff: Query So gathered from that, it may be helpful to measure the thickness at the rim of the coin
So the Austrian mint contradict their own official spec by saying that the thickness is 1.9mm and not 2.0 mm? Doesn't help to say the least.

Atahualpa | 07-23-2009 11:20 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1831713) In another one of these Phil threads, someone did measure what is believed to be a real one (who knows anymore :biggrin:), and it was about the same thickness as mine.
Interesting how you seem so casual about casting doubt on the authenticity of all gold coins. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I'm 999.9% sure :452: :wink:...that you don't know what you are doing. You're a newbie gold hustler and you saw some thug thieves bringing in stolen goods and you were so overtaken by the prospect of buying them cheap that your sweaty hands contaminated the coins and your acid test was flawed (just think of all the times you get that rush when you see a chump with the real goods...over time all that sweat and drooling contaminates all your testing solutions and surfaces) The coins are the correct weight, correct diameter, and within tolerances of the correct thickness, it can't be anything but the real thing. This has all been one big amateur clusterflock.

oboshoe | 07-23-2009 12:03 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1824879) They may be felonies in Austria, but I'm not sure about here... ?
Its a felony in the US to counterfeit foreign or US currency. Normally the FBI and SS get involved very quickly in a counterfeiting case. That is why I'm so very much puzzled that your local police department is handling as it as a run of the mill theft case, even after being informed that they coins are likely counterfeit. To say that is unusual, is a massive understatement. It appears from your statements that the police didn't take you seriously, or they have a very very very unique way of investigating Federal matters.

okness | 07-23-2009 01:00 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? [QUOTE= The coins are the correct weight, correct diameter, and within tolerances of the correct thickness, it can't be anything but the real thing. This has all been one big amateur clusterflock.[/QUOTE] Hi, im new, just posted one other time. Did you have the sound up during the video? When skeptic dropped the coin onto the scale it sounded closer to a 22K coin than a 24K. Also the dings in the scan look like what would show up on a mishandled krugerrand, not a 24K coin. I assume most of you have handled 22K and 24K coins just as much or more than i have, so i'd be interested in knowing others opinions on this. thanks.

ds_mustang | 07-23-2009 01:25 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? From what I can gather from the various threads, assuming the skeptic's acid test and assay are correct... is that there exist 1oz phils that contain gold, weigh correctly and are within tolerances on dimensions yet are in fact fake coins that are short on gold. And if they've done it with phils they'll probably do it with other coins (if they haven't already). This is deeply disturbing. The whole notion of the safety and security of bullion coins as they are made today is now blown out of the water. Even dealers aren't going to catch this. How can anyone buy a gold coin and know they are getting what they expect? Maybe you can buy fractionals and expect nobody has gone to the trouble to fake them, but the larger coins... I dunno anymore.

Atahualpa | 07-23-2009 01:35 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1832068) This is deeply disturbing. The whole notion of the safety and security of bullion coins as they are made today is now totally blown out of the water.
Yawn...it is not disturbing because is not true. That Philharmonic is not a fake, the strike is good, the size is right...blab, blab, blab. When all the particulars are correct, you have a gold coin of the correct purity. It is as simple as that. There is no cheap alloy that can replace gold. Like I said, this is a newbie gold buyer... going to school.

oboshoe | 07-23-2009 01:50 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1832068) From what I can gather from the various threads, assuming the skeptic's acid test and assay are correct... is that there exist 1oz phils that contain gold, weigh correctly and are within tolerances on dimensions yet are in fact fake coins that are short on gold. And if they've done it with phils they'll probably do it with other coins (if they haven't already). This is deeply disturbing. The whole notion of the safety and security of bullion coins as they are made today is now blown out of the water. Even dealers aren't going to catch this. How can anyone buy a gold coin and know they are getting what they expect? Maybe you can buy fractionals and expect nobody has gone to the trouble to fake them, but the larger coins... I dunno anymore.
I think we have a ways to go before it rising to the level of disturbing. Right now its an interesting Internet theory. Even if everything pans out exactly as stated (which is a massive IF), then I see no reason why this would be any harder to detect, than the current crop of counterfeits. It seems from the early posts, this was flagged as suspect nearly immediately. If a gold scrap buyer can spot it this easily, then certainly traditional gold coin dealers will fare as well.

fasTTcar | 07-23-2009 01:51 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1832068) From what I can gather from the various threads, assuming the skeptic's acid test and assay are correct... is that there exist 1oz phils that contain gold, weigh correctly and are within tolerances on dimensions yet are in fact fake coins that are short on gold. And if they've done it with phils they'll probably do it with other coins (if they haven't already).
It is a physical impossibility to create something with the same dimensions and weight without using elements that are much more expensive than gold itself. <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="550"><tbody><tr><td width="409"> <table bordercolorlight="#FFFFFF" bordercolordark="#FFFFFF" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="392"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#cc3333"><td>Metal or alloy</td> <td> kg/cu.m</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">aluminium - melted</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">2560 - 2640</td> </tr> <tr> <td>aluminium bronze (3-10% Al)</td> <td>7700 - 8700</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">aluminium foil</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">2700 -2750</td> </tr> <tr> <td>antifriction metal</td> <td>9130 -10600</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">beryllium</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">1840</td> </tr> <tr> <td>beryllium copper</td> <td>8100 - 8250</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">brass - casting</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">8400 - 8700</td> </tr> <tr> <td>brass - rolled and drawn </td> <td>8430 - 8730</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">bronze - lead </td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">7700 - 8700</td> </tr> <tr> <td>bronze - phosphorous</td> <td>8780 - 8920</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">bronze (8-14% Sn)</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">7400 - 8900</td> </tr> <tr> <td>cast iron</td> <td>6800 - 7800</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">cobolt</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">8746</td> </tr> <tr> <td>copper</td> <td>8930</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">delta metal</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">8600</td> </tr> <tr> <td>electrum</td> <td>8400 - 8900</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">gold</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">19320</td> </tr> <tr> <td>iron</td> <td>7850</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">lead</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">11340</td> </tr> <tr> <td>light alloy based on Al</td> <td>2560 - 2800</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">light alloy based on Mg</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">1760 - 1870</td> </tr> <tr> <td>magnesium</td> <td>1738</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">mercury</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">13593</td> </tr> <tr> <td>molybdenum</td> <td>10188</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">monel</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">8360 - 8840</td> </tr> <tr> <td>nickel</td> <td>8800</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">nickel silver</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">8400 - 8900</td> </tr> <tr> <td>platinum</td> <td>21400</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">plutonium</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">19800</td> </tr> <tr> <td>silver</td> <td>10490</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">steel - rolled </td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">7850</td> </tr> <tr> <td>steel - stainless </td> <td>7480 - 8000</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">tin</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">7280</td> </tr> <tr> <td>titanium</td> <td>4500</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">tungsten</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">19600</td> </tr> <tr> <td>uranium</td> <td>18900</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">vanadium</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">5494</td> </tr> <tr> <td>white metal</td> <td>7100</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">zinc</td> <td bgcolor="#f6f6f6">7135</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> <td bgcolor="#cc3333" width="1"> </td> <td valign="top" width="3"> </td> <td valign="top" width="135"><!-- #BeginLibraryItem "/Library/Button_side.lbi" --><!--start xtragrahpics square --> <!--end xtragrahpics --><!-- #EndLibraryItem --><!-- start Google Adsense --> <script type="text/javascript"><!-- google_ad_client = "pub-1295916838909752"; google_ad_width = 120; google_ad_height = 600; google_ad_format = "120x600_as"; google_color_border = "FFFFFF"; google_color_bg = "FFFFFF"; google_color_link = "0000FF"; google_color_url = "FF00FF"; google_color_text = "990000"; //--></script> <script type="text/javascript" src="http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/show_ads.js"> </script> <!-- end Google Adsense --> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> Unless your material is radioactive, or liquid, the material is significantly more money to produce. If your "thin" phil is alloyed with Platinum, I will gladly buy it from you. Case closed.

Willie Peter | 07-23-2009 01:57 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeJuice (Post 1831872) So the Austrian mint contradict their own official spec by saying that the thickness is 1.9mm and not 2.0 mm? Doesn't help to say the least.
The way I understood it was 1.9mm was an average rim thickness, I don't think anyone can make a perfect coin everytime, especially when dealing with hundredths and thousandths of a millimeter

ds_mustang | 07-23-2009 01:57 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1832086) Yawn...it is not disturbing because is not true. That Philharmonic is not a fake, the strike is good, the size is right...blab, blab, blab. When all the particulars are correct, you have a gold coin of the correct purity. It is as simple as that. There is no cheap alloy that can replace gold. Like I said, this is a newbie gold buyer... going to school.
So how do you explain the assay and acid test? You're hoping the OP and assayer are incompetent or lying?

Willie Peter | 07-23-2009 02:02 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1832068) From what I can gather from the various threads, assuming the skeptic's acid test and assay are correct... is that there exist 1oz phils that contain gold, weigh correctly and are within tolerances on dimensions yet are in fact fake coins that are short on gold. And if they've done it with phils they'll probably do it with other coins (if they haven't already). This is deeply disturbing. The whole notion of the safety and security of bullion coins as they are made today is now blown out of the water. Even dealers aren't going to catch this. How can anyone buy a gold coin and know they are getting what they expect? Maybe you can buy fractionals and expect nobody has gone to the trouble to fake them, but the larger coins... I dunno anymore.
I don't think it'd be possible to make a coin that contains gold, weigh correctly and are within tolerances on dimensions, but are counterfeit, unless you used a more expensive or harder to obtain or work with, metal....I'd go with Faulty testing materials in this case....maybe it's got Plutonium in it....http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing013.gif

ds_mustang | 07-23-2009 02:06 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by fasTTcar (Post 1832112) It is a physical impossibility to create something with the same dimensions and weight without using elements that are much more expensive than gold itself. Unless your material is radioactive, or liquid, the material is significantly more money to produce. If your "thin" phil is alloyed with Platinum, I will gladly buy it from you. Case closed.
Tungsten is on your list, fits the bill, and from an internet search it seems you can get a kg (over 32 troy ounces) for $220 right now. Still case closed?

Atahualpa | 07-23-2009 02:07 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1832122) So how do you explain the assay and acid test? You're hoping the OP and assayer are incompetent or lying?
I attribute it to inexperience number one...he had never ever heard of a Gold Philharmonic, he doesn't know anything about gold coins. He just started this scrap gold buying and he is learning as he goes. He doesn't have precise tools (no way to check specific gravity), he is using off the shelf solutions that are imprecise...he is buying old jewelery in the mall, what do you expect? He is not an expert, he is a complete newbie.

okness | 07-23-2009 02:08 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Where's rhenium on that list. at $85 an ounce it is more likely than anything to be included in the magic alloy. Rhenium is difficult to fabricate, but if they guy at metallium can make a coin out of it, the chinese can use in an alloy for a fake. I don't understand the argument that it's unprofitable, as that just depends on the volume of the product being made. All of that gold would require an incredible amount of capital, but so would the fake double eagles that are the correct gold content, i don't think any of us dispute the chinese make those. Odds are it is a real 24K coin, but still.

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ds_mustang | 07-23-2009 02:13 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? From an internet search... Quote:
"The difficulty in faking gold is in finding substances denser than gold. Almost everything is less dense than gold. Most things that are denser than gold are also more expensive than gold. A hundred years ago, platinum was cheaper than gold, so forgers used platinum. Now platinum, which is denser than gold, is also much more expensive than gold, so you don't see forgers using this technique. It was brought to my attention today that modern forgers are using tungsten instead, covering a granulated tungsten core with a thin coating of real gold. Tungsten has a density of 19.25 gms/cc, compared to gold at 17.19 gms/cc. Tungsten is cheaper than gold, but it wasn't used in the past because it was so hard to work with. Tungsten has a melting point 1000� higher than most commercial furnaces and kilns can provide. A new technique has come into vogue. The tungsten, which is hard to melt, pour, or forge, is turned into powder. Then the powder is mixed with something such as resin, epoxy, or clay and pressed into cakes of the right size and shape. The result, if you mixed the tungsten powder and resin in the right ratio, is something with the same density as gold."
Anyone want to bet the funny core they're seeing in the skeptic's coin comes back as tungsten? Clearly the people saying there is nothing cheaper to put in the coin are simply wrong. FYI, the same page has a test for a real coin based on measuring how long it takes to heat up when you run electricity through it. Oh, and guess what? China exports tungsten so apparently they have plenty.

Bob | 07-23-2009 02:28 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I'll bet it doesn't come back. He mentioned a discoloration. I'm still in the it's real camp. If you're going to fake a coin with 90% gold and use a tungsten core, why the hell would you make the outer coin 18 ct? This is a 24 ct coin. If I'm forging it with a tungsten core (and I think there are probably issues with sound and delamination and the brittleness of tungsten that could arise), I'm not gonna stick a tungsten core in the middle and 18 ct on the outside. Look at the "facts" we are supposed to have. The coin is assayed at 90% yet the outer coin is 18 ct and there is some sort of disk in the middle. Ok, so that means the outside is "low" grade 18 ct gold and the inner coin has to be higher grade to get a 90% content? So the forger is using a high gold disk in the middle? If we are to believe this information, the only way you can probably make a 90% coin with 18 ct on the outside is for the core to be pure gold. Huh? If I were to try and forge a coin like this with a tungsten disk, I'd put a tungsten disk in the middle and I'd slap PURE 24 ct gold on the outside and then it would in theory be undetectable. Again, I'm not sure the viability of that. I think the tungsten would probably fracture under the pressure of dies and that might cause issues. My original assumption was the acid test was screwed up. But the fact that the poster claims to have had the coin assayed at 90% gold gives me these possibilities off the top of my head: 1) The coin is real, the poster botched the acid test, and then fibbed about getting it assayed because he's certain he's right about the acid test. 1a) The coin is real, the poster botched the acid test, and the assayer botched his test or tried to make a quick buck off the gold cause he knew the poster thought this was fake to begin with. 2) The coin is real, the poster is making up a tall tale. 3) The coin is fake and the people who made it are stupid. Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1832144) From an internet search... Anyone want to bet the funny core they're seeing in the skeptic's coin comes back as tungsten? Clearly the people saying there is nothing cheaper to put in the coin are simply wrong.

Atahualpa | 07-23-2009 02:31 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1832144) From an internet search... Anyone want to bet the funny core they're seeing in the skeptic's coin comes back as tungsten? Clearly the people saying there is nothing cheaper to put in the coin are simply wrong. FYI, the same page has a test for a real coin based on measuring how long it takes to heat up when you run electricity through it. Oh, and guess what? China exports tungsten so apparently they have plenty.
I can shoot that theory out of the water immediately...you can't cut though a disk of tungsten with ordinary tools, and he cut the Philharmonic coin in half...what did he use, a plasma cutter? How much would you like to bet?

mamboni | 07-23-2009 02:32 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1832144) From an internet search... Anyone want to bet the funny core they're seeing in the skeptic's coin comes back as tungsten? Clearly the people saying there is nothing cheaper to put in the coin are simply wrong. FYI, the same page has a test for a real coin based on measuring how long it takes to heat up when you run electricity through it. Oh, and guess what? China exports tungsten so apparently they have plenty.
That's ingenious: a pressed wafer from powdered tungsten and resin. And if the coin is covered in pure gold, any test short of cutting the coin is halves is likely to miss the fake. Maybe the mints need to go one step further and embed some type of miniature RFID or chip into the coin that provesd that it is authentic.

hernancortes | 07-23-2009 02:34 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? If there was a tungsten core, wouldn't the person filing the coin in half meet alot of resistence once he's hit the core? Tungsten is very high on the hardness scale, the opposite of gold.

mamboni | 07-23-2009 02:34 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1832175) I can shoot that theory out of the water immediately...you can't cut though a disk of tungsten with ordinary tools, and he cut the Philharmonic coin in half...what did he use, a plasma cutter? How much would you like to bet?
But there's a big difference between soild tungsten and a powdered tungsten-resin composite vis-a-vis hardness and cuttability. It's akin to the difference between cutting granite and concrete.

fasTTcar | 07-23-2009 02:40 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Fair catch. I was under the impression that tungsten was more expensive than it is. My mistake. However, a few good points are made here (http://www.tungsten-alloy.com/en/alloy11.htm) why it is doubtful unless it had a tungsten core: Tungsten Alloy for Gold Substitution Why tungsten alloy is used as gold substitution? In theory, as its density is 19.1g/cm3, which is approximately 70% denser than lead, uranium could be used as material of making fake coin. However, it is weakly radioactive and not as dense as gold, so it does not appear to be a practical method. Then people have discovered that tungsten is environmental-friendly, durable and hardness, the most important is that its density of 19.25g/cm3 is just about the same density as gold (19.3g/cm3), which bears the similar specific gravity. These advantages make tungsten enjoys the superiority to be the best substitute for the costly metal of gold or platinum. It is necessary to tell that alloying gold with tungsten would not work for several reasons but a coin with a tungsten center and gold all around it could not be detected as counterfeit by density measurement alone. <table class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-width: 0px; border-collapse: collapse;" id="table33" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border-style: none; border-width: medium; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 190.9pt;" valign="top" width="255"> http://www.tungsten-alloy.com/pic/go...titution03.jpg </td> <td style="border-style: none; border-width: medium; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 227.7pt;" width="304"> http://www.tungsten-alloy.com/pic/go...titution02.jpg </td> </tr> </tbody></table> The appliances for tungsten alloy as gold substitution Nowadays, tungsten alloy is increasingly used in some field relevant to gold or platinum substitution, such as: jewelry, e.g. ring, ear ring, necklace, wrist chain, etc. Also, it is widely adopted in making faking coins, such as memorial crown. Since tungsten alloy bears a special property of longevity and high durability, when it is utilized to make jewelry, it always implicate the love between lovers or couple could be everlasting. Its hardness makes it ideal for rings that will resist scratching, are hypoallergenic, and will not need polishing, which is especially useful in designs with a brushed finish. Chinatungsten offer tungsten alloy as gold substitution We are well accustomed to exploit more innovative applications of tungsten products. Gold-plated tungsten is one of our main products. In details, pure tungsten, in the forms of round disc, plate, sheet, ring, and etc., can be perfectly coated with gold layer with clinquant shine, to replace gold or platinum merchandise except its currency function. If you are interest in this information, please feel free to contact us. Any questions or enquiries about tungsten alloy products will be welcomed by email to sales@chinatungsten.com or telephone 86 592 5129696. <table class="MsoTableGrid" style="border: medium none ; border-collapse: collapse;" id="table34" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr> <td style="border: medium none windowtext; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 248.4pt;" valign="top" width="331"> http://www.tungsten-alloy.com/pic/go...titution01.jpg </td> <td style="border-style: none; border-color: windowtext windowtext windowtext -moz-use-text-color; border-width: medium; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 157.4pt;" valign="top" width="210"> http://www.tungsten-alloy.com/pic/tungsten_ring.jpg </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: medium none windowtext; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 248.4pt;" width="331" height="29"> Tungsten Alloy Coin</td></tr></tbody></table>

hernancortes | 07-23-2009 02:41 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? But tungsten passes an acid test, sez the Skeptic.

Atahualpa | 07-23-2009 02:44 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1832180) But there's a big difference between soild tungsten and a powdered tungsten-resin composite vis-a-vis hardness and cuttability. It's akin to the difference between cutting granite and concrete.
Even in a resin composite, you are dealing with a metal that is close to a diamond in hardness, along side one the softest metals (if not the softest). If you cut into it you would be able to feel it, see it, and you would have a pile of tungsten powder.

ds_mustang | 07-23-2009 02:47 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by hernancortes (Post 1832193) But tungsten passes an acid test, sez the Skeptic.
I bet a tungsten/epoxy cake would not. And the gold the counterfeiters used might not either as it could've been impure. They're not exactly a mint that cares about having high purity.

ds_mustang | 07-23-2009 02:57 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1832175) I can shoot that theory out of the water immediately...you can't cut though a disk of tungsten with ordinary tools, and he cut the Philharmonic coin in half...what did he use, a plasma cutter? How much would you like to bet?
I'll bet you $20. As the coin is 90% gold the tungsten portion is tiny. Also if it was a core made from epoxy (or whatever) and powered tungsten that's probably not hard to cut. Still want to take the bet? Though I'm not sure how we'd prove the case either way.

mamboni | 07-23-2009 02:59 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1832196) Even in a resin composite, you are dealing with a metal that is close to a diamond in hardness, along side one the softest metals (if not the softest). If you cut into it you would be able to feel it, see it, and you would have a pile of tungsten powder.
I think you're oversimplying this and generalizing. You can take the hardest materials known, and powderize them, aggregate them with a soft resin adhesive, and obtain a material has some properties of the hard materials, yet is pliable and cuttable, such as sandpapers prepared from carborundum. Whether you would feel the difference when cutting would depend on so many variables such as experience, hardness and speed of cutting blade, force applied, etc. I can assure you that if a power saw is equipped with a sufficiently hardened and sharp blade operating at high RPM, that you will not feel the difference in resistance as the blade passes through the lumber plank and into your leg.:yes:

Bob | 07-23-2009 03:05 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Are you talking in general or this coin? If you're talking about this coin, how do you explain the 18 ct (75%) acid test on the outer gold and the assay result at 90%? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1832211) I think you're oversimplying this and generalizing. You can take the hardest materials known, and powderize them, aggregate them with a soft resin adhesive, and obtain a material has some properties of the hard materials, yet is pliable and cuttable, such as sandpapers prepared from carborundum. Whether you would feel the difference when cutting would depend on so many variables such as experience, hardness and speed of cutting blade, force applied, etc. I can assure you that if a power saw is equipped with a sufficiently hardened and sharp blade operating at high RPM, that you will not feel the difference in resistance as the blade passes through the lumber plank and into your leg.:yes:

Willie Peter | 07-23-2009 03:06 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I think it's got a internal wafer made of a little known newly discovered element know as Mambonium.....http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing024.gif

SLV>GLD | 07-23-2009 03:14 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1832196) ...one the softest metals (if not the softest)...
Yes, gold is the most malleable and ductile pure metal. This is one of the properties that make gold unique and desirable. Any goldbug should know this fact.

mamboni | 07-23-2009 03:15 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Peter (Post 1832222) I think it's got a internal wafer made of a little known newly discovered element know as Mambonium.....http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing024.gif
Ssssh! Don't call attention to the secret ingredient in Viagra (previously known in Siberia as Dr.Mamboni's Magical Elixir).

horseshoe3 | 07-23-2009 03:26 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Dang it Bob! Every time I have an insight to share, I read a few more posts and you have already covered it. First it was that the guy measured inside the rim. Then it was that he squeezed the calipers. And now you beat me to it on why the hell would you plate a fake coin with 90% when it should be 24K. We're on the same wavelength but you're about 1 and a half waves ahead of me.

mamboni | 07-23-2009 03:30 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1832221) Are you talking in general or this coin? If you're talking about this coin, how do you explain the 18 ct (75%) acid test on the outer gold and the assay result at 90%?
I agree with you that an internal tungsten-aggregate wafer layered in pure gold should pass the acid test for 24K gold. BTW, tungsten is purportedly reactive with Nitric Acid and variably reactive with Sulfuric acid (http://www.rembar.com/tech2.htm#chart4z). I don't believe an alloy of gold and tungsten is physically or chemically possible - the metals are insoluble. As for the assay result of 90%, that is possible if the entire coin was ground prior to firing and tungsten represented 10% of the dry weight. TheSkeptic's coin is quite the mystery - a detailed report of the metal analysis would be most interesting - soon to be reported first here at GIM!

Atahualpa | 07-23-2009 03:31 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1832211) I think you're oversimplying this and generalizing. You can take the hardest materials known, and powderize them, aggregate them with a soft resin adhesive, and obtain a material has some properties of the hard materials, yet is pliable and cuttable, such as sandpapers prepared from carborundum.
I am trying to keep this exercise within the context of Skeptic's descriptions, and my assumptions of the tools he had available at the kiosk when he first cut into the Philharmonic to test it. He cut a large notch into the coin and examined it, and then rubbed the exposed surface onto his testing stone...a resin tungsten composite would not test as gold. Quote:
I can assure you that if a power saw is equipped with a sufficiently hardened and sharp blade operating at high RPM, that you will not feel the difference in resistance as the blade passes through the lumber plank and into your leg.:yes:
I can assure you, having built over 500 hand-crafted heirloom pieces of furniture, and having had the unfortunate experience of cutting a piece of mesquite on a bandsaw that then passed through and contacted the knuckle of my index finger, that there was a large and noticeable difference in resistance. Try it yourself if you don't believe me. :biggrin: Nevertheless, all materials have a feel, a sound, a smell, (if you are cutting into resin,you know it) and visual characteristics...since he cut into the center of the coin, all of the characteristics were available for observation. I've have heard no descriptions of powders, resins, or anything that didn't test as gold. So, within the context of this coin, I don't think we are dealing with tungsten.

Atahualpa | 07-23-2009 03:35 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1832208) I'll bet you $20. As the coin is 90% gold the tungsten portion is tiny. Also if it was a core made from epoxy (or whatever) and powered tungsten that's probably not hard to cut. Still want to take the bet? Though I'm not sure how we'd prove the case either way.
I'll take the bet if Skeptic's assay is done by a reputable outfit, on their letterhead, with a breakdown of the metals. Deal?

mamboni | 07-23-2009 03:36 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1832273) I am trying to keep this exercise within the context of Skeptic's descriptions, and my assumptions of the tools he had available at the kiosk when he first cut into the Philharmonic to test it. He cut a large notch into the coin and examined it, and then rubbed the exposed surface onto his testing stone...a resin tungsten composite would not test as gold. I can assure you, having built over 500 hand-crafted heirloom pieces of furniture, and having had the unfortunate experience of cutting a piece of mesquite on a bandsaw that then passed through and contacted the knuckle of my index finger, that there was a large and noticeable difference in resistance. Try it yourself if you don't believe me. :biggrin: Nevertheless, all materials have a feel, a sound, a smell, (if you are cutting into resin,you know it) and visual characteristics...since he cut into the center of the coin, all of the characteristics were available for observation. I've have heard no descriptions of powders, resins, or anything that didn't test as gold. So, within the context of this coin, I don't think we are dealing with tungsten.
We are speculating in a vacuum - to no useful end. Might I suggest to the OP that he scan the cut edge of the coin. Thus will produce a well-lit image at 100x magnification. Any disimilar metals would be obvious as pure gold is quite uniform reddish-yellow.

mamboni | 07-23-2009 03:41 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1832279) I'll take the bet if Skeptic's assay is done by a reputable outfit, on their letterhead, with a breakdown of the metals. Deal?
I'll wager 10,000 quatloos!:banana::banana:

digger2 | 07-23-2009 03:42 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? May I suggest some professional help: Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecristo (Post 1748573) I was a little slow this morning, so I analyzed a 20 Franc Rooster. I took 3 readings. The machine is accurate up to 1/100th of a percent, these would be the approximate average. Au 90% Cu 9% Ni 0.5 % I used this machine: http://www.helmut-fischer.com/ProductDetail.asp?PN=602-759&CountryID=91&LanguageID=2
http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...d.php?t=379313 .

Bob | 07-23-2009 03:44 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1832281) We are speculating in a vacuum - to no useful end. Might I suggest to the OP that he scan the cut edge of the coin. Thus will produce a well-lit image at 100x magnification. Any disimilar metals would be obvious as pure gold is quite uniform reddish-yellow.
If there is a discoloration, I'm betting it's due to a dirty cutting instrument. Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1832279) I'll take the bet if Skeptic's assay is done by a reputable outfit, on their letterhead, with a breakdown of the metals. Deal?
This is what we really need or this needs to be filed away. I don't think we're getting an assay result though.

mamboni | 07-23-2009 04:03 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1832291) If there is a discoloration, I'm betting it's due to a dirty cutting instrument.
In the words of the inimitable Kim Il: "You're bwaking my balls Bob, bwaking my balls!":bear_rolleyes::bear_rolleyes::bear_rolleye s:

Willie Peter | 07-23-2009 04:08 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1832288) I'll wager 10,000 quatloos!:banana::banana:
I'll see that, and raise you $100,000,000,000....http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-cool04.gif http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/322...abwedollar.jpg

ds_mustang | 07-23-2009 04:20 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1832279) I'll take the bet if Skeptic's assay is done by a reputable outfit, on their letterhead, with a breakdown of the metals. Deal?
So what's the bet? I thought it was about how easily you could cut a powered tungsten wafer, but I'll take a bet on the assay. So if there's tungsten in the assay then I win, if some other material then you win? If there is no assay, it doesn't know material, or is otherwise inconclusive then bet is null. $20 bet. How to handle payoff? Paypal to private email?

mamboni | 07-23-2009 04:25 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1832337) So what's the bet? I thought it was about how easily you could cut a powered tungsten wafer, but I'll take a bet on the assay. So if there's tungsten in the assay then I win, if some other material then you win? If there is no assay, it doesn't know material, or is otherwise inconclusive then bet is null. $20 bet. How to handle payoff? Paypal to private email?
Alot will depend on the rate of conversion from US dollar to quatloos on that day.

rodzm | 07-23-2009 04:34 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Peter (Post 1832332) I'll see that, and raise you $100,000,000,000....http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-cool04.gif http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/322...abwedollar.jpg
Sorry to tell you but that currency is no longer in use :111:

Atahualpa | 07-23-2009 05:46 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1832337) So what's the bet? I thought it was about how easily you could cut a powered tungsten wafer, but I'll take a bet on the assay. So if there's tungsten in the assay then I win, if some other material then you win? If there is no assay, it doesn't know material, or is otherwise inconclusive then bet is null. $20 bet. How to handle payoff? Paypal to private email?
Here's the bet you proposed, "Anyone want to bet the funny core they're seeing in the skeptic's coin comes back as tungsten?", and that is the bet I will take you up on...determined by an assay performed by a reputable company, on company letterhead, with a breakdown of the metal composition. If there is no assay...it's a mute point. Paypal to email is fine with me.

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Gold & Silver Forum (http://goldismoney.info/forums/index.php)
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- - Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=392148)

TheSkeptic | 07-23-2009 06:24 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 4 Attachment(s) Lot to catch up on. We went to sell some more gold today and I picked up the intact half of the second coin. I took some scans, but they are not going to be good quality since turning the coin on its side lets a lot of light/interference into the scanner. But of course, these are not scans from the same coin, they are from a disc I had specifically made for this occasion. :sarcasm:

TheSkeptic | 07-23-2009 06:42 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by hernancortes (Post 1832193) But tungsten passes an acid test, sez the Skeptic.
Wrong - what I said was: Quote:
A lot of the class rings are now being made of tungsten though, right? I have noticed that some metals, like stainless steel, and I believe tungsten, will not melt under 22K acid. So if I'm correct and tungsten won't melt, then they aren't tungsten...
I was not sure about whether or not tungsten would melt under acid. As a matter of fact, I just acid tested another one of these class rings. It was silver in appearance, had a well known class ring manufacturer stamp but no karat or fineness stamp. I told her it wasn't gold before the test, but she insisted that it was real. Long story short, nothing I put on the stone would melt the sample. She said she paid $500 for the ring. I don't know what it was made of.

mamboni | 07-23-2009 07:01 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1832534) Lot to catch up on. We went to sell some more gold today and I picked up the intact half of the second coin. I took some scans, but they are not going to be good quality since turning the coin on its side lets a lot of light/interference into the scanner. But of course, these are not scans from the same coin, they are from a disc I had specifically made for this occasion. :sarcasm:
Thank you for taking the time and effort to post these scans. That looks like the same uniform metal throughout to my eye - all gold. Why does it have a granulated surface - is that because of the type of cutting blade used?

csrobbins | 07-23-2009 07:06 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Yes the color looks pretty uniform. Perhaps the act of sawing through it could cause the discoloration. Cutting builds up heat, possible residue from the cutting utensil itself, and to leave such a rough surface this could cause it. All in all it looks normal.

TheSkeptic | 07-23-2009 07:07 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1831873) Interesting how you seem so casual about casting doubt on the authenticity of all gold coins. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I'm 999.9% sure :452: :wink:...that you don't know what you are doing. You're a newbie gold hustler and you saw some thug thieves bringing in stolen goods and you were so overtaken by the prospect of buying them cheap that your sweaty hands contaminated the coins and your acid test was flawed (just think of all the times you get that rush when you see a chump with the real goods...over time all that sweat and drooling contaminates all your testing solutions and surfaces) The coins are the correct weight, correct diameter, and within tolerances of the correct thickness, it can't be anything but the real thing. This has all been one big amateur clusterflock.
Honestly, this post is what does it for me. I am going to clarify a few points and post the information I got today, but when I start seeing crap like this from posters who I respect(ed), I'm done putting up with it. To address some of the "points" from this post: First of all, I do not appreciate your denigration of what I do and the manner in which I do it. In the "35% thread", you defended my margins and in fact stated that you did not want to import jewelry unless you got a 3X markup on it. So what is the difference between a 3X markup and a 3X markdown (35% spot)? Hm? Some of the statements in this post reek of the self-righteous assumption that I am trash for what I do. Let me make one thing crystal clear: I would not have purchased the coins if I thought they were stolen. I believed they were counterfeit, and was pretty sure that counterfeit coins in that volume would not be stolen property. If this bitter diatribe was about the issue at hand and not your self-righteous disgust for my margins (which are no different than yours), you wouldn't have made this comment: Quote:
(just think of all the times you get that rush when you see a chump with the real goods...over time all that sweat and drooling contaminates all your testing solutions and surfaces)
And let's say there was some sweat on my hands. I'd like to know how it got deep inside the coin, into the part I filed and took a sample from. Frankly, your comments were uncalled for, and extremely disrespectful. I expected more from a member of your caliber. Perhaps you achieved your desired result. Bury your head in the sand if you want - this issue is real. And here you go assuming a lot: Quote:
The coins are the correct weight, correct diameter, and within tolerances of the correct thickness, it can't be anything but the real thing.
The Austrian Mint contradicts their own previously published thickness. Other posters have given thicknesses ranging from 1.65 - 1.94. And this is with respect to a rim thickness that one poster said was both unimportant and variable. There is a lot left to this discussion, and your statements are premature and presumptuous.

ds_mustang | 07-23-2009 07:10 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1832467) Here's the bet you proposed, "Anyone want to bet the funny core they're seeing in the skeptic's coin comes back as tungsten?", and that is the bet I will take you up on...determined by an assay performed by a reputable company, on company letterhead, with a breakdown of the metal composition. If there is no assay...it's a mute point. Paypal to email is fine with me.
Agreed. Skeptic, get me an assay so I can collect my $20 before $20 won't buy a gumball :smile:

mamboni | 07-23-2009 07:13 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1832584) Agreed. Skeptic, get me an assay so I can collect my $20 before $20 won't buy a gumball :smile:
No rush: it will take about six months for that to happen.:wink:

TheSkeptic | 07-23-2009 07:13 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob 1) The coin is real, the poster botched the acid test, and then fibbed about getting it assayed because he's certain he's right about the acid test. 1a) The coin is real, the poster botched the acid test, and the assayer botched his test or tried to make a quick buck off the gold cause he knew the poster thought this was fake to begin with.
1) I made up the entire assay story, even though it contradicted my previously stated opinion that the gold was not higher than 18K? Seriously? 2) I realize you don't have the background I do with these people. Take it for what it's worth, but these guys move more gold (mostly scrap and some bullion) in a day than anyone here will own in a lifetime. And yes, I understand that some of you probably own millions in physical. This is not some back room at a flea market. We sell tens of thousands of dollars a month of scrap to these guys, who have to trust us more than we trust them, since they pay cash on the spot for quart bags of karated gold from us with only cursory examination (and sometimes not even that). I'm sure they assay lots to make sure we aren't screwing them over, but there is still a trust issue there when we could burn them for thousands and then just not come back. These guys are the outlet for virtually every gold buyer, jewelry store, and pawn shop in a three state radius. Some of the members who have chatted with me via PM and live in my area who deal in gold undoubtedly know who I am talking about. They are not playing around with us, and we do not play around with them. We have a working relationship with these guys, they are not someone I just looked up in the phone book. So when they give me an assay result, I believe it.

TheSkeptic | 07-23-2009 07:26 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Now, I am going to post some information, respond to a couple of the comments, and then taking a break for a while. People are really aggravating me. To the poster who finds it strange that the SS or Treasury is not involved because we told the PD the coins were counterfeit - the Treasury or SS is not going to take over a theft investigation, which they have NO JURISDICTION over. They DO have jurisdictoin over counterfeiting, but they would be TWO SEPARATE cases. I am banging my head against the wall trying to get people to understand this simple concept. Further more, just because we told the cop they were counterfeit doesn't mean he believed us. Or, he could've just been lazy and not wanted to pursue the matter, knowing what a headache of interagency cooperation it could entail. You think this never happens with understaffed, overworked police departments? Right now, their focus is on getting this guy his coins back. They could give a shit less if they are real or not. The PD did come and take the untouched coin back today. We now have the unfired half of the other coin back in our possession. People are working form the assumption that the outside of the coin is .750. It was my opinion that it was .750 after an acid test, but the assay came back at .900. So disregard 18K. I still do not have the raw data from the quick assay, but when we went in today, one of the guys told us that the other metal was copper. Whether it was all copper or just mostly copper, he was not sure. Their entire office has been talking about these coins, and ours are not the first ones they have seen. They have a chemist who has also been consulted about them. He told me that people were now seriously looking into this. I asked him if he was talking about dealers and he gave me a strange look. A few moments later he randomly reminded me that there were both Treasury agents and FBI agents with offices in a building near one of our mall locations. Take it for what you will. My opinion is that calls have been made and this is being investigated by various people with various interests. The detective who took the coin told my employee that he was going to be contacting us in a few days and left an evidence receipt (and no, I will not scan it because it is extremely basic, and its probative value is not worth the privacy I would be giving up). It was reiterated to him that the coins were counterfeit, and when he contacts us again, I am going to ask to speak with the owner. Even taking into account factors such as residue of acid or other metals on the testing surface, there is no way that a 22K test acid (ESPECIALLY if impure or stale) can melt 22K or higher gold. You cannot screw up a 22K acid test. Mamboni and msrobbins, The color does look pretty uniform in the scan. To answer the question, the coin was cut with a simple pair of sharp pliers/cutters. The change in color is striking when viewed under a loupe. It just doesn't come through very well in the scan. Looking at it, I can tell that the light is throwing it off. When I rub the center of the coin against a testing stone, there is a lot of resistance. This is unusual and indicates something funky is going on. That, and the fact that 22K slowly (but completely) melts the sample. That's it for me for a while, guys. I'm tired of the denigration and the BS. If I get any really good information or documentation, I'll let you know.

Atahualpa | 07-23-2009 08:19 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1832579) Honestly, this post is what does it for me. I am going to clarify a few points and post the information I got today, but when I start seeing crap like this from posters who I respect(ed), I'm done putting up with it. To address some of the "points" from this post: First of all, I do not appreciate your denigration of what I do and the manner in which I do it. In the "35% thread", you defended my margins and in fact stated that you did not want to mess with jewelry unless you got a 3X markup on it. So what is the difference between a 3X markup and a 3X markdown (35% spot)? Hm? Some of the statements in this post reek of the self-righteous assumption that I am trash for what I do. Let me make one thing crystal clear: I would not have purchased the coins if I thought they were stolen. I believed they were counterfeit, and was pretty sure that counterfeit coins in that volume would not be stolen property.
When the subject was buying scrap, that was one thing, but when you start making comments about the legitimacy of the coin used in calibrating the measurements posted as a reference, coupled with this thread questioning all gold coins, and you being a newbie to the world of precious metals, you cross the line. Nobody with any street smarts mistakes thugs (your description) as gold coin investors...you should have known that anything these thugs had was suspect. That you believed these were somehow legitimately acquired counterfeits is bazaar...a classic oxymoron. You knew anything and everything they had was stolen...and I said it before that you were rationalizing to yourself and to us about the legitimacy of these coins from the get go because you were salivating at the prospect of getting over on them. Don't be BSing me with this self righteous indignation...you knew they were criminals from the minute you laid eyes on them. Quote:
If this bitter diatribe was about the issue at hand and not your self-righteous disgust for my margins (which are no different than yours), you wouldn't have made this comment:
I'm not in the business of scrap metals, I buy jewelery and sterling as a hobby and have never sold any of it...so I have no margins, if I see it marked cheap, I buy it. But I am a serious bullion investor and have been for many years, and it is a major part of my portfolio...which is one reason I don't take kindly to some greenhorn running on about all gold coins being suspicious. Quote:
And let's say there was some sweat on my hands. I'd like to know how it got deep inside the coin, into the part I filed and took a sample from.
Sweat is fluid... Quote:
Frankly, your comments were uncalled for, and extremely disrespectful. I expected more from a member of your caliber. Perhaps you achieved your desired result. Bury your head in the sand if you want - this issue is real.
My comments may indeed be uncalled for, but in many ways so is this thread. If you would have brought this whole story to a conclusion and then relayed the play by play to us for informational purposes after the fact, with all the substantiating facts documented, it would be one thing, but to just humorously undermine confidence in gold bullion coins on unconcluded evidence that may never be resolved satisfactorily, just to have a titillating thread (as evidenced by the thread title), as I said before, crosses the line with me...hence, my irritation and disrespect. But, you can do what you want, but don't expect praise and support from everybody. Quote:
And here you go assuming a lot: The Austrian Mint contradicts their own previously published thickness. Other posters have given thicknesses ranging from 1.65 - 1.94. And this is with respect to a rim thickness that one poster said was both unimportant and variable. There is a lot left to this discussion, and your statements are premature and presumptuous.
Yeah, there is a lot of premature presumption going on.

TheSkeptic | 07-23-2009 08:55 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I'll bite, because you are so completely off base here. Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1832678) When the subject was buying scrap, that was one thing, but when you start making comments about the legitimacy of the coin used in calibrating the measurements posted as a reference, coupled with this thread questioning all gold coins, and you being a newbie to the world of precious metals, you cross the line.
You are completely blowing my comment out of proportion. Here is the post in question, for those who want to see. I said: Quote:
In another one of these Phil threads, someone did measure what is believed to be a real one (who knows anymore :biggrin:), and it was about the same thickness as mine.
How you could take offense to that is beyond me. I jokingly made that statement and followed it with a smiley to try to emphasize my intent. I was not trying to "prove" or allege that the other poster's coin was fake. This is a really, really ridiculous tangent. Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1832678) Nobody with any street smarts mistakes thugs (your description) as gold coin investors...you should have known that anything these thugs had was suspect. That you believed these were somehow legitimately acquired counterfeits is bazaar...a classic oxymoron.
I knew the coins were counterfeit. I saw several in their possession. They offered 45 more. I did not believe they were the counterfeiter by any means - but I also did not believe for one second that someone legitimately had that many counterfeit coins. Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1832678) I'm not in the business of scrap metals, I buy jewelery and sterling as a hobby and have never sold any of it...so I have no margins, if I see it marked cheap, I buy it. But I am a serious bullion investor and have been for many years, and it is a major part of my portfolio...which is one reason I don't take kindly to some greenhorn running on about all gold coins being suspicious.
Just a matter of a simple search. Your quote: Quote:
I would probably get a kick out of that business...I've done a lot of buying and selling, I use to buy in Mexico and S. America and import to the US. I never bought anything if if didn't think I could do a 3x's mark up...or else expenses would make it a losing proposition.
Oops. Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1832678) Sweat is fluid...
You're joking, right? So now sweat can melt 24K gold? Or sweat fused with 22K acid can? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1832678) My comments may indeed be uncalled for, but in many ways so is this thread. If you would have brought this whole story to a conclusion and then relayed the play by play to us for informational purposes after the fact, with all the substantiating facts documented, it would be one thing, but to just humorously undermine confidence in gold bullion coins on unconcluded evidence that may never be resolved satisfactorily, just to have a titillating thread (as evidenced by the thread title), as I said before, crosses the line with me...hence, my irritation and disrespect. But, you can do what you want, but don't expect praise and support from everybody.
I am not asking for "praise and support." I started the thread as a simple rant, nothing more. I did not know that there are no confirmed cases of counterfeit Philharmonics. I really wouldn't have cared. I was just ranting. Anyway, this is just more waaaay overblown reaction. That we are even sitting here talking about sweat messing up a 22K acid application shows how dumb this has gotten, and why I am bowing out for a few days. This last post was just so unbelievable, I had to comment.

Atahualpa | 07-23-2009 08:55 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? "The color does look pretty uniform in the scan. To answer the question, the coin was cut with a simple pair of sharp pliers/cutters." The cut coin in the scan has the appearance of being cut on both sides and then the line in the center has the texture of a break...which would make sense now that we know it was cut with shears. It looks like the same material through and through, just different textures from the cut. There doesn't appear to be a disk of tungsten powder in the center, mustang, lol.

SilverKestrel | 07-23-2009 09:16 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Anyone considered Dark Matter?, as in "...Why is it that 95% of the universe is made up of this so-named "dark matter?" An even trickier question is where? As in where is this dark matter?..."

ds_mustang | 07-23-2009 09:47 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1832716) "The color does look pretty uniform in the scan. To answer the question, the coin was cut with a simple pair of sharp pliers/cutters." The cut coin in the scan has the appearance of being cut on both sides and then the line in the center has the texture of a break...which would make sense now that we know it was cut with shears. It looks like the same material through and through, just different textures from the cut. There doesn't appear to be a disk of tungsten powder in the center, mustang, lol.
We'll see what the assay says. Something had to beef out the coin density while keeping the dimensions identical to a 24k coin. And as so many liked pointing out to me, there's not much that can do that and be cheaper than gold.

Atahualpa | 07-23-2009 09:59 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1832715) I'll bite, because you are so completely off base here. How you could take offense to that is beyond me. I jokingly made that statement and followed it with a smiley to try to emphasize my intent. I was not trying to "prove" or allege that the other poster's coin was fake.
It is not this instance in isolation, it is the totality of the message. Quote:
I knew the coins were counterfeit. I saw several in their possession. They offered 45 more. I did not believe they were the counterfeiter by any means - but I also did not believe for one second that someone legitimately had that many counterfeit coins.
How would you know they were counterfeit when you had never seen a gold Philharmonic? If you didn't believe for one second that the thugs were the legitimate owners of the coins, who did you think was the legitimate owner? The Uncle? LOL Quote:
Just a matter of a simple search. Your quote: Oops.
WTF do mean Oops? Oops nothing, I never said I imported gold, silver, or jewelery from Mexico or S. America, I imported antique furniture and artwork. You're trying to weave comments I made in your scrap buying thread with your counterfeit thread. I traveled to these countries, bought wholesale, imported with a customs broker, and retailed...as I said, if I didn't make 3x's on the purchase price, I couldn't cover my expenses. Don't try to confuse my buying from antique dealers in Latin America with your buying stolen coins from thugs. I never do business with people I suspect are criminals or with goods I think could be stolen. If I am not certain of the provenance or ownership of any goods I'm offered, I pass. If I were buying scrap, I would never consider buying from thugs, period. Buying anything stolen is a violation of the victim...it is the same as a thief, you are the enabler. Quote:
You're joking, right? So now sweat can melt 24K gold? Or sweat fused with 22K acid can?
Yes, I'm joking, my sweat comments are facetious...my implication is you are jacked up at the prospect of beating the criminals out of their booty, so it will be your booty. LOL Quote:
I am not asking for "praise and support." I started the thread as a simple rant, nothing more. I did not know that there are no confirmed cases of counterfeit Philharmonics. I really wouldn't have cared. I was just ranting.
Like I said, you are green. Do you not think that this thread has caused some people to be confused about the safety of buying gold coins, or cause worry about what they own, whether you intended to or not? Quote:
Anyway, this is just more waaaay overblown reaction. That we are even sitting here talking about sweat messing up a 22K acid application shows how dumb this has gotten, and why I am bowing out for a few days. This last post was just so unbelievable, I had to comment.
In all of the confusion of trying to get over on thugs with stolen merchandise, you made a lot of assumptions. I think you are wrong about all of this, you bought gold Philharmonics, they just happened to be stolen.

jedemdasseine | 07-23-2009 10:01 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? What about the counterfeit gold maple you found? Any updates on that? And what are your bid/ask prices for 1 ounce gold coins?

momopanda | 07-23-2009 10:19 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty and pig likes it.

Gknowmx | 07-23-2009 11:42 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1832798) Like I said, you are green. Do you not think that this thread has caused some people to be confused about the safety of buying gold coins, or cause worry about what they own, whether you intended to or not? In all of the confusion of trying to get over on thugs with stolen merchandise, you made a lot of assumptions. I think you are wrong about all of this, you bought gold Philharmonics, they just happened to be stolen.
You Sir, have nailed it. The reason this is a great thread is that it is a wake-up call to all those who don't understand as much as about gold as they thought they did. Regardless of the actual specific outcome, the fact remains that you and several other true skeptics are grounded in ethics, physics, analytical chemistry, street smarts, and experience. It is good to know that you folks come down hard on these sloppy threads, no matter how well intentioned the OP is. (the road to hell may be paved with an alloy of good intentions and tungsten). :biggrin: This thread is a clinic. It is a great case study of what is likely to come. For every careful thinker there are orders of magnitude more sloppy ones. Faking coins is one thing, competence can't be faked. If TheSkeptic's actions have shaken the confidence of some, it should have; those shaken will get the heck out of gold or wise-up at the OP's expense. The flip side is that the true skeptics in this thread more than restore confidence that situations like this are quickly resolved (as was the silver/AMPEX issue--is that poster still with us?) I am sensing that TheSkeptic may be intelligent, but his ego and his lack of ethic and experiences has gotten way out in front of him to the point that the law may come into play very soon, if it hasn't already. We heard early on about the 30 day rule of keeping inventory. Now he is freely decideing to consuming material for analysis almost immediately at his own discretion. As you said, if it is suspicious, and the OP darn well knew that it was, then as someone pointed out, either the prospective customer should have been turned away with a clear explaination as to why or the material should have been accepted and the customer informed that due to the nature of the material accepted, it is standard procedure to consult the PD and go on the record as taking this out of the legal 30 holding to be assayed. There is no reason why this should not have been done with full transparency. The danger to the OP now is that, in fact, he did receive stolen goods and does not have them in inventory as he is supposed to by law and is now also the subject of investigation. If my Phils were stolen I would go to the police, who would go to the local reputable dealers who would finger the new scrap gold buyer in the mall. I hope the OP's bookkeeping records are not as sloppy has the facts in his posts but I suspect that they are-- I is my experience that either one pays attention to detail or one doesn't at all, especially in business. So Mamboni, here is a theory: The "uncle" that the "thugs" are referring could be "Uncle Sam", as the "thugs" are undercover LEO. They could have cared less if a mall scrap gold dealer actually gave them face value, much less any fraction of market value. They just want him to take possession of clearly identifiable and 'unique' coins (as opposed to non-descript rings, or GAEs, etc) -- and those coins better be in his "inventory" when they search it later or he is toast. The fact that the mall scrap gold dealer made a mess of IDing real Phils is just a side show but consistent with why (the local) reputable dealers abhor green get-rich-operations as much as fake coins. If this is causing an uproar on GIM, it must really be an issue in the local dealer community by now. My guess is that the easy local scrap gold is drying up and now the mall scrap gold dealer has been accepting more coins at low payouts which is cutting into the dealer business or it PO'd the wrong person who later went to a dealer only to realize they had been screwed. Given his reported margins and likely expectation of high growth rates in the local scrap gold market, the mall scrap gold dealer is over-extended and in over his head and eating into his inventory prematurely to get past a "temporary rough spot". This explains why he is now grinding his teeth and needs dental work. :wink: This will all come to a head very soon, here on GIM and in the real world.

mamboni | 07-23-2009 11:55 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Gknowmx (Post 1832939) So Mamboni, here is a theory: The "uncle" that the "thugs" are referring could be "Uncle Sam", as the "thugs" are undercover LEO. They could have cared less if a mall scrap gold dealer actually gave them face value, much less any fraction of market value. They just want him to take possession of clearly identifiable and 'unique' coins (as opposed to non-descript rings, or GAEs, etc) -- and those coins better be in his "inventory" when they search it later or he is toast. The fact that the mall scrap gold dealer made a mess of IDing real Phils is just a side show but consistent with why (the local) reputable dealers abhor green get-rich-operations as much as fake coins. If this is causing an uproar on GIM, it must really be an issue in the local dealer community by now. My guess is that the easy local scrap gold is drying up and now the mall scrap gold dealer has been accepting more coins at low payouts which is cutting into the dealer business or it PO'd the wrong person who later went to a dealer only to realize they had been screwed. Given his reported margins and likely expectation of high growth rates in the local scrap gold market, the mall scrap gold dealer is over-extended and in over his head and eating into his inventory prematurely to get past a "temporary rough spot". This explains why he is now grinding his teeth and needs dental work. :wink: This will all come to a head very soon, here on GIM and in the real world.
Just one question: if this is a sting, and TheSkeptic accepted real gold philharmonics, what crime has he committed? How can a LEO sell a stolen coin if it's already in the state's possession? This would constitute a frame, not a sting.

Willie Peter | 07-24-2009 12:19 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Sounds like that would be entrapment....

Gknowmx | 07-24-2009 12:40 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? if the law says inventory has to be on hand for 30 days, does it matter where it came from? 30 days is 30 days. The mall scrap gold dealer claims that the PD is involved. They could ask for his entire 30 inventory, not just the one or two "fakes". In fact, if I were paranoid because I had sold other real Phils out of inventory but then thought I was in a sting, I would want to know if I had sold real or fake Phils; if I was being set up. If real, I could just buy them to replace what I sold out of inventory but shouldn't have. If they were fakes I could claim entrapment. Perhaps the OP is down to a last ditch hope against hope that GIM can help him get peice of mind.

croc | 07-25-2009 04:34 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? this thread is getting interesting, now we just need to involve a few firearms, a russian hairdresser and a boating accident,,,

bottom feeder | 07-25-2009 11:08 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Skeptic, like Finesilver has opened a GIM can of worms here. I have been following the thread but refrained from commenting up till now. My old post on calculating density (http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...hlight=density) was not well received even though it is scientifically correct so I didn't want to post to it. But... The method I detailed is not to difficult but it will show the true density of the "counterfeit" Phil. bf

Bob | 07-25-2009 12:14 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I like your method. It cleverly avoids the difficulty of measuring the volume because most devices people have access to probably don't have the fine measurement capabilities needed to get an accurate measurement whereas the scale does. The only problem I see is making sure there are no air bubbles. Quote:
Originally Posted by bottom feeder (Post 1835132) Skeptic, like Finesilver has opened a GIM can of worms here. I have been following the thread but refrained from commenting up till now. My old post on calculating density (http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...hlight=density) was not well received even though it is scientifically correct so I didn't want to post to it. But... The method I detailed is not to difficult but it will show the true density of the "counterfeit" Phil. bf

Atahualpa | 07-25-2009 04:49 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Here is my summary and conclusion of this little fiasco...Skeptic was presented with the opportunity to buy 53 (8 offered + 45 additional) stolen 999.9% Gold Philharmonic's. (over $50,000 Dollar worth of gold for approximately $15,000 Dollars or less is if he knew how to work them) As a result of his inexperience, and being overwhelmed by what was presented to him, and by who was presenting it, his mind was unable to comprehend what was in front of him. Instead of calmly assessing the situation with a background of knowledge in gold coins and the world of black market business, he had a kneejerk reaction, his mind froze, and all he could comprehend was this can't be real! :cry1: Well...real it was Sherlock, and just think, you could have given those thieves enough cash to satisfy them for the moment, gained their confidence, taken them under your wing (of course just pretending until you got the coins) and then had them immediately go get the additional 45 - 999.9 % PURE GOLD COINS!! If you would have had the wherewithal to think quickly on your feet, you might have been able to rush off to a coin dealer and sell those 8 PURE GOLD COINS and had enough cash to negotiate with the thieves for the ADDITIONAL 45 PURE GOLD COINS PAID IN FULL (or arranged for them to front them to you and then you take a little day trip to a nearby city and sell enough to pay off your new friends...just trying to think outside the box for you :biggrin:) and ended up with $45,000 Dollars (or 45 999.9% PURE GOLD PHILHARMONICS) in your pocket for a few hours effort. If you want to make it as a gold "buyer", you have to be able to think on your feet...to blow a $45,000 Dollar payday because your mind froze in disbelief that thieves could possibly have that much stolen booty is a very amateur mistake...there are a lot of wealthy people, and aspiring thieves understand that you have to hit wealthy people if you hope to hit it big, and big they hit it!!! Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Skeptic. You had the chance to "make" more money at one time than you have ever had, or may ever have again. Think about that.........:23_31_2: :banana::banana::banana: Blow and hookers until you drop. :111: Good luck on your business in the future. :36_3_16:

TheSkeptic | 07-25-2009 05:10 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I knew they were fake because they failed the acid test. Nothing more, nothing less. And because I was thinking with a clear head, I wanted to have them assayed before I had bought any more. They assayed at 90%. You don't have to believe the assay results I reported. But I know. Pitching a fit and acting like a naive child (as if there are no counterfeit gold coins floating around!!!) doesn't change that for me. I didn't have to go to coin shops - our outlet would have bought them all at 98% spot in one sitting. Cash paid, no questions asked, no running around town. Had we bought all 45 coins, they would have been confiscated by the police had we still been holding them, and the possibility of restitution would have been a joke. Or, if we had already sold them, we would have been charged for violating the holding period, and the owner would have sued us for $1000 a coin plus damages. But you know all that. Or did you suddenly develop amnesia? It's as if you never even read the thread. You are acting like a child, and I don't want to waste my time with someone who is not actually interested in a discussion. If you think counterfeit gold coins don't already exist and won't continue to become more convincing, you are a fool who would rather bury his head in the sand than step up to deal with reality. Anyhow, I'm off for a quick vacation. Will catch up Monday night.

igorthesmall | 07-27-2009 02:29 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Gknowmx (Post 1833000) if the law says inventory has to be on hand for 30 days, does it matter where it came from? 30 days is 30 days. The mall scrap gold dealer claims that the PD is involved. They could ask for his entire 30 inventory, not just the one or two "fakes". In fact, if I were paranoid because I had sold other real Phils out of inventory but then thought I was in a sting, I would want to know if I had sold real or fake Phils; if I was being set up. If real, I could just buy them to replace what I sold out of inventory but shouldn't have. If they were fakes I could claim entrapment. Perhaps the OP is down to a last ditch hope against hope that GIM can help him get peice of mind.
Not sure what state the OP is in, but here in Ohio it is simply a misdemeanor if you are caught failing to comply with the holding period. Police departments are far too tight with money to be committing $50k to buy gold coins and set people up for misdemeanor offenses. Not to mention, the police cant just seize all your inventory because they suspect that you havent been following the rules on the holding period.

Gknowmx | 07-27-2009 02:36 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by igorthesmall (Post 1838156) Not sure what state the OP is in, but here in Ohio it is simply a misdemeanor if you are caught failing to comply with the holding period. Police departments are far too tight with money to be committing $50k to buy gold coins and set people up for misdemeanor offenses. Not to mention, the police cant just seize all your inventory because they suspect that you havent been following the rules on the holding period.
It was just a speculative theory. The real point I was trying to make, half in jest, is that with the lack of responsible details and data to back the OP's claim, I too, can make wild claims that "fit" the available data. I am sure the police do have better things to do. I am sure counterfeiters and jack boot thugs do too.

morganchaser | 07-27-2009 03:09 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? If it's too crazy to be true, it probably is. I'm sorry TheSkeptic, but extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. You have the goods. We don't. Take the coin to an assayer and get a full assay on the material content if you expect people to take you seriously. End of story. This simple problem has somehow become a mountain from a mole hill and I can only speculate on the reasons. But as so far: this just stinks of a very bored person/miscalibrated instruments/contaminated chemicals/a mis-struck coin with a shallow strike and a thin rim. What you describe is barely possible if it is possible at all. I think it is ethically dubious to entertain such a prospect by speculating on how such a feat would be accomplished on a public forum. This brain storm among counterfeit detectors is invaluable to counterfeiters. Why would we allow such a story to provoke us in to disclosing our knowledge on the subject? Get it assayed, or bury it and call every newspaper you can think of before a local judge can gag order you. Somebody PM me if either of the above happens because these tidbits of "information" are ridiculous. The video is interesting, however much easier to fake than a heavier and cheaper than gold slug. I have a couple micrometers that lie by as much as .025, there's a scale downstairs that claims I weigh 200 pounds. If the Skeptic has something: he can do something about it. If that happens, I'll allow the doubt in. I see a web of excuses. That's generally a good litmus test that something isn't on the up and up. Get it assayed and quit shooting yourself in the foot by encouraging the development of counterfeiting how to's on the internet.

mamboni | 07-27-2009 05:38 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Well, I just received my brand new digital caliper that was commended to me a few posts back. Here are some measurements - four quadrant measurements of one coin, rim thickness, the average is reported, with standard deviation and % st. dev.: Gold Philharmonic 1991: Thickness = 1.91 mm St. Dev. = 0.039 mm % St. dev. = 2% Now, get aload of a 2006 Gold Buffalo: Thickness = 2.81 mm St. Dev. = 0.28 mm % St. dev. = 10% I don't think the US Mint is in any position to criticitize the Austrian vis-a-vis consistency!

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Gold & Silver Forum - Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?

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Gold & Silver Forum (http://goldismoney.info/forums/index.php)
- Gold - Silver - Coins - Numismatics (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=51)
- - Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=392148)

jedemdasseine | 07-27-2009 10:44 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? For all bullion coins, weight and diameter should vary little. Thickness can vary greatly.

igorthesmall | 07-27-2009 11:01 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1838246) If it's too crazy to be true, it probably is. I'm sorry TheSkeptic, but extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. You have the goods. We don't. Take the coin to an assayer and get a full assay on the material content if you expect people to take you seriously. End of story. This simple problem has somehow become a mountain from a mole hill and I can only speculate on the reasons. But as so far: this just stinks of a very bored person/miscalibrated instruments/contaminated chemicals/a mis-struck coin with a shallow strike and a thin rim. What you describe is barely possible if it is possible at all. I think it is ethically dubious to entertain such a prospect by speculating on how such a feat would be accomplished on a public forum. This brain storm among counterfeit detectors is invaluable to counterfeiters. Why would we allow such a story to provoke us in to disclosing our knowledge on the subject? Get it assayed, or bury it and call every newspaper you can think of before a local judge can gag order you. Somebody PM me if either of the above happens because these tidbits of "information" are ridiculous. The video is interesting, however much easier to fake than a heavier and cheaper than gold slug. I have a couple micrometers that lie by as much as .025, there's a scale downstairs that claims I weigh 200 pounds. If the Skeptic has something: he can do something about it. If that happens, I'll allow the doubt in. I see a web of excuses. That's generally a good litmus test that something isn't on the up and up. Get it assayed and quit shooting yourself in the foot by encouraging the development of counterfeiting how to's on the internet.
He already got the assay that says the coin was only 90% gold. No one believes that. What would be any different if he got an assay showing anything else?

jedemdasseine | 07-27-2009 11:15 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Just an FYI, there are indeed a lot of 90% gold counterfeits out there, but they're almost exclusively made to look like rare or semi-rare pre-33 gold coins. And many come in fake slabs. Most dealers just buy them for melt and then sacrifice them to the fire gods.

Metalophile | 07-28-2009 08:36 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by igorthesmall (Post 1838934) He already got the assay that says the coin was only 90% gold. No one believes that. What would be any different if he got an assay showing anything else?
The OP said he had a "quick assay" done. It would be helpful to know exactly what a "quick assay" is and what the 95% confidence limits are for the 90% result. Analytical methods can vary greatly in their accuracy and precision, and rapid tests are generally more prone to error than non-rapid tests.

TheSkeptic | 07-28-2009 12:37 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I appreciate the thoughtful responses, even if they are critical. To address one comment - between vacation, some more hiring, and starting to open our third location, I have been swamped lately, and can assure you that the thread was not started out of "boredom". :111: igorthesmall brings up a point I have been thinking about a lot over the last few days. I could go to the trouble and expense to have an assay performed on the half coin I still have left. Then what? I post the assay results, and then people say (take your pick): they are forged, or they are from an entirely different sample, or they are incorrect, or the company is not reputable, or they are correct, but because the assay was done on a half coin, and there is no way to determine that the other coins are the same (shall we call it the "only one counterfeit" theory?), or (my favorite) TPTB, in conjunction with myself and some secretive arm of the CIA, conspired to undermine confidence in bullion coins by creating a Really Good Fake, and this coin is the only one like it in the world So what do you say? Do I still pay for an assay only to have the results ripped apart? I am open to honest opinions. Also, I will say this: We were given an assay result of 90%. Either I am lying about this, or the people who had do the assay are lying to me. I have already addressed why I do not believe I'm being lied to. But some have chosen instead to focus on things like acid test impurities (I have exhaustively addressed that too), bad scales, etc. Yes, people make mistakes. But this camp is completely ignoring the fact that I had an assay done, and it returned 90%. So, you have a choice to make. Quit trying to complicate the issue. If you think I am lying about the assay, or that I was lied to, then proceed from that basis, instead of raising now pointless arguments such as whether or not the acid test was incorrect.

morganchaser | 07-28-2009 12:59 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by igorthesmall (Post 1838934) He already got the assay that says the coin was only 90% gold. No one believes that. What would be any different if he got an assay showing anything else?
What we have now: Ingredients to magical coins: 90*% gold 10*% ?IDK? * tolerance of +or - "?IDK?"% What we would have if a proper assay was done: 91.5% Gold 7% _______ 1.5% _______ We would have the exact composition of the magic slug which is accomplishing the virtually impossible. It either makes sense, or if it doesn't: he can post the business name of the assayer, and the results can be verified. Also: because the results of such an assay are priceless. i don't believe a word out of anyone's mouth who doesn't have the curiosity to do no less than solve the problem of the Alchemists! You hold no less than that in your possession if you are to be believed, and "why would I want to do that? What's in it for me?" Doesn't cut the mustard.

mamboni | 07-28-2009 12:59 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? OP: If you have access to a digital balance and a water dish, you can set up an apparatus to measure density precisely and accurately using the "Bottom Feeder Method:" http://goldismoney.info/forums/showt...09#post1839509 With appropriate scale and a little care, you should be abel to determine the density of the coin in question to the nearst 1/100 gram/cc. The result would be extremely informative.

TheSkeptic | 07-28-2009 01:07 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1839739) What we have now: Ingredients to magical coins: 90*% gold 10*% ?IDK? * tolerance of +or - "?IDK?"% What we would have if a proper assay was done: 91.5% Gold 7% _______ 1.5% _______ We would have the exact composition of the magic slug which is accomplishing the virtually impossible. It either makes sense, or if it doesn't: he can post the business name of the assayer, and the results can be verified. Also: because the results of such an assay are priceless. i don't believe a word out of anyone's mouth who doesn't have the curiosity to do no less than solve the problem of the Alchemists! You hold no less than that in your possession if you are to be believed, and "why would I want to do that? What's in it for me?" Doesn't cut the mustard.
I did post what the other metal was. But the post seems to have been ignored by everyone because no one has mentioned it. I kind of hid it in there, just to see if anyone was actually reading what I was saying, instead of reacting to it. :bear_rolleyes: "What's in it for me?" is a very valid question. By exposing names, places, etc., I open myself up to some unpleasant consequences (if you have closely followed this thread, you should be able to put together what I mean without me having to come out and say it), all for nothing if no one believes me. I am not saying I won't pay for a full assay to be done, I'm just saying that I don't see the point in doing it if no one would believe the results, or believe that the assay was actually from one of these coins. I'm just asking for honest opinions to counter this line of thinking. Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1839742) OP: If you have access to a digital balance and a water dish, you can set up an apparatus to measure density precisely and accurately using the "Bottom Feeder Method:" http://goldismoney.info/forums/showt...09#post1839509 With appropriate scale and a little care, you should be abel to determine the density of the coin in question to the nearst 1/100 gram/cc. The result would be extremely informative.
The name is pretty cool. I will look into that tomorrow.

morganchaser | 07-28-2009 01:12 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1839698) Also, I will say this: We were given an assay result of 90%. Either I am lying about this, or the people who had do the assay are lying to me. I have already addressed why I do not believe I'm being lied to. But some have chosen instead to focus on things like acid test impurities (I have exhaustively addressed that too), bad scales, etc. Yes, people make mistakes. But this camp is completely ignoring the fact that I had an assay done, and it returned 90%. So, you have a choice to make. Quit trying to complicate the issue. If you think I am lying about the assay, or that I was lied to, then proceed from that basis, instead of raising now pointless arguments such as whether or not the acid test was incorrect.
Edit: some of your last post addresses some of the issues I raise in this post. I wanted to aknowledge that and thank you for that post. Original post: I fail to see how an assay of 90% proves that your instumentation is properly calibrated. If anything: without further information such as: 10% Depleted Uranium-> it's further evidence that your instuments are miscalibrated. The information you have provided so far is in seeming contradiction, and the burden does not fall on us to speculate on the "missing link" when you are the only one with the resources available to come to a proper conclusion. The reason people continue to question your instrumentation is because they don't want to believe you are lying, and it's less messy to be mistaken than it is to be a liar. The question I have for you(since I believe I just answered one of yours) is: are you going to put this issue to bed and do a full assay? Yes or no? My boss taught me to always give a straight answer to yes or no questions. If you think that's an oversimplification: I welcome an explaination for why you answered the way you did, but I want to know one way or another what your intention is.

morganchaser | 07-28-2009 01:20 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1839763) I did post what the other metal was. But the post seems to have been ignored by everyone because no one has mentioned it. I kind of hid it in there, just to see if anyone was actually reading what I was saying, instead of reacting to it. :bear_rolleyes: "What's in it for me?" is a very valid question. By exposing names, places, etc., I open myself up to some unpleasant consequences (if you have closely followed this thread, you should be able to put together what I mean without me having to come out and say it), all for nothing if no one believes me. I am not saying I won't pay for a full assay to be done, I'm just saying that I don't see the point in doing it if no one would believe the results, or believe that the assay was actually from one of these coins. I'm just asking for honest opinions to counter this line of thinking. The name is pretty cool. I will look into that tomorrow.
If that's the case then my bad. However, I can't search the thread for 10% and find the answer and it's a big thread so I would ask that you repeat yourself and save me 10 pages or so of reading as well as heading off future off topic tangents. Am I correct then that you intend to have a full assay done? A precise composition would be fascinating. I would say the best reason to do a full assay is a matter of community service. It will be of great assistance to know the exact composition so that counter-measures can be prepared in response. What's in it for you is the products of such a brainstorm. The more people making suggestions on the best way to protect against these fakes: the more likely the most efficient/accurate solution will rise to the top.

TheSkeptic | 07-28-2009 01:27 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I can clearly answer your yes/no question by saying "maybe" :111: What are are some recommendations of reputable assayers I could send this to, whose results would not be in dispute? And would non-destructive assay methods be just as accurate as destructive ones? From post #309: Quote:
* To the poster who finds it strange that the SS or Treasury is not involved because we told the PD the coins were counterfeit - the Treasury or SS is not going to take over a theft investigation, which they have NO JURISDICTION over. They DO have jurisdictoin over counterfeiting, but they would be TWO SEPARATE cases. I am banging my head against the wall trying to get people to understand this simple concept. Further more, just because we told the cop they were counterfeit doesn't mean he believed us. Or, he could've just been lazy and not wanted to pursue the matter, knowing what a headache of interagency cooperation it could entail. You think this never happens with understaffed, overworked police departments? Right now, their focus is on getting this guy his coins back. They could give a shit less if they are real or not. * The PD did come and take the untouched coin back today. We now have the unfired half of the other coin back in our possession. * People are working form the assumption that the outside of the coin is .750. It was my opinion that it was .750 after an acid test, but the assay came back at .900. So disregard 18K. * I still do not have the raw data from the quick assay, but when we went in today, one of the guys told us that the other metal was copper. Whether it was all copper or just mostly copper, he was not sure. Their entire office has been talking about these coins, and ours are not the first ones they have seen. They have a chemist who has also been consulted about them. He told me that people were now seriously looking into this. I asked him if he was talking about dealers and he gave me a strange look. A few moments later he randomly reminded me that there were both Treasury agents and FBI agents with offices in a building near one of our mall locations. Take it for what you will. My opinion is that calls have been made and this is being investigated by various people with various interests. * The detective who took the coin told my employee that he was going to be contacting us in a few days and left an evidence receipt (and no, I will not scan it because it is extremely basic, and its probative value is not worth the privacy I would be giving up). It was reiterated to him that the coins were counterfeit, and when he contacts us again, I am going to ask to speak with the owner. * Even taking into account factors such as residue of acid or other metals on the testing surface, there is no way that a 22K test acid (ESPECIALLY if impure or stale) can melt 22K or higher gold. You cannot screw up a 22K acid test.

morganchaser | 07-28-2009 01:37 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1839808) I can clearly answer your yes/no question by saying "maybe" :111: What are are some recommendations of reputable assayers I could send this to, whose results would not be in dispute? And would non-destructive assay methods be just as accurate as destructive ones? From post #309:
Very interesting. It can be nothing other than a shallow strike then. Can you tell from inspection of the coin if the stiking dies where made through EDM, Reducing lathe, or Casting? Other?(I suppose it's possible an artist carved a new pattern by hand) Another possibility is reverse engineering+rapid prototyping/CNC +reducing lathe? If it doesn't have the characteristic markings of the first couple, it seems logical that coin was made with a reverse engineering arm.

Gknowmx | 07-28-2009 01:42 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1839698) I appreciate the thoughtful responses, even if they are critical. To address one comment - between vacation, some more hiring, and starting to open our third location, I have been swamped lately, and can assure you that the thread was not started out of "boredom". :111: igorthesmall brings up a point I have been thinking about a lot over the last few days. I could go to the trouble and expense to have an assay performed on the half coin I still have left. Then what? I post the assay results, and then people say (take your pick): they are forged, or they are from an entirely different sample, or they are incorrect, or the company is not reputable, or they are correct, but because the assay was done on a half coin, and there is no way to determine that the other coins are the same (shall we call it the "only one counterfeit" theory?), or (my favorite) TPTB, in conjunction with myself and some secretive arm of the CIA, conspired to undermine confidence in bullion coins by creating a Really Good Fake, and this coin is the only one like it in the world So what do you say? Do I still pay for an assay only to have the results ripped apart? I am open to honest opinions. Also, I will say this: We were given an assay result of 90%. Either I am lying about this, or the people who had do the assay are lying to me. I have already addressed why I do not believe I'm being lied to. But some have chosen instead to focus on things like acid test impurities (I have exhaustively addressed that too), bad scales, etc. Yes, people make mistakes. But this camp is completely ignoring the fact that I had an assay done, and it returned 90%. So, you have a choice to make. Quit trying to complicate the issue. If you think I am lying about the assay, or that I was lied to, then proceed from that basis, instead of raising now pointless arguments such as whether or not the acid test was incorrect.
Pathetic. You continue with the diversionary tactics. You could have and should have asked yourself this list of questions before you made your initial bold unsubstantiated claim. The main one surprised by the range of actual responses in this thread so far appears to be yourself. Now you are rationalizing as to why to not do the right thing (which is much different that what you are doing or would have done had you not posted on GIM). Really, it is a simple matter of Character. It is not complicated at all. Now you are trying to get some sort of GIM reset as if opinions on a virtual forum somehow will dictate the reality of the outcome of an assay? External validation will not change the outcome of a full assay. Why should you do it? At this point, for your own integrity. That you even have to ask this question is truly disturbing. And you have the stones to continue to ask for honest opinions? You pay for the assay for your own good. If you choose, you can post the results here for the good of others. It is doubtful you will do either. Denial ain't a river in Egypt. This earns you a trip to my ignore list; it vastly uncomplicates the issue for me.

TheSkeptic | 07-28-2009 01:47 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? If the coin assayed at 90% gold and 10% copper, would you even believe what I posted? And if you didn't believe it, what would be the point of me going to the expense and trouble of an assay? Hmm?

barter | 07-28-2009 01:57 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalophile (Post 1839283) Analytical methods can vary greatly in their accuracy and precision, and rapid tests are generally more prone to error than non-rapid tests.
Batch testing is way cheaper and with a written "assay" document one can cast doubt and paranoia and suspicion upon every coin owned by every GIMer. Mamboni is already now buying expensive digital testing instruments to verify his own coins. Newbies here are probably scared away now from considering bullion coins. Every coin testing gizmo dealer is already linking to this thread. In another month "testing" teethmarks will blemish every gold coin in America. LOL. :smile:

mamboni | 07-28-2009 02:04 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by barter (Post 1839879) Batch testing is way cheaper and with a written "assay" document one can cast doubt and paranoia and suspicion upon every coin owned by every GIMer. Mamboni is already now buying expensive digital testing instruments to verify his own coins. Newbies here are probably scared away now from considering bullion coins. Every coin testing gizmo dealer is already linking to this thread. In another month "testing" teethmarks will blemish every gold coin in America. LOL. :smile:
So, are you saying that we're being played?:bear_w00t:

TheSkeptic | 07-28-2009 02:11 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1839898) So, are you saying that we're being played?:bear_w00t:
I don't know about that, but I did just get a call from my handlers at the CIA saying that I am getting a fat bonus!!! :ARMS1: The bad thing is that the bonus is being paid entirely in gold Philharmonics. :favorites21: Anyway, would be very glad to hear recommendations on good, reputable assayers.

barter | 07-28-2009 02:54 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1831873) Interesting how you seem so casual about casting doubt on the authenticity of all gold coins. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I'm 999.9% sure :452: :wink:...that you don't know what you are doing. You're a newbie gold hustler and you saw some thug thieves bringing in stolen goods and you were so overtaken by the prospect of buying them cheap that your sweaty hands contaminated the coins and your acid test was flawed (just think of all the times you get that rush when you see a chump with the real goods...over time all that sweat and drooling contaminates all your testing solutions and surfaces) The coins are the correct weight, correct diameter, and within tolerances of the correct thickness, it can't be anything but the real thing. This has all been one big amateur clusterflock.
Attachment 76500 I agree. :23_28_100s:

TheSkeptic | 07-28-2009 02:59 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? D.R. Scrap Metals - are these the guys I need to call to have a reputable assay done? Oh wait - I just realized this was another drive by. My bad. (But you might want to check, I already responded to that ridiculous post) You forgot to weigh in on whether or not I am flat out lying about the assay, or whether I was lied to. But maybe you didn't bother to read about any of that either. :111:

HistoryStudent | 07-28-2009 03:03 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by croc (Post 1834925) this thread is getting interesting, now we just need to involve a few firearms, a russian hairdresser and a boating accident,,,
Sounds like Country & Western music. Just add ... what we Need: Sex, an EX, an old pick-up, or or 18 wheeler, mixed with a loyal dog, and some WATERMELLON WINE. Or a GOOD BEER. :clap2::36_1_32v::36_3_16:

Bob | 07-28-2009 03:11 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Well guys, I did some digging and think I have uncovered the truth here. I placed a call to a contact at the Austrian embassy who put me in touch with the Supreme Chancellor of the Austrian Empire (I can't give you any names for obvious reasons). He informed me that they've long suspected this was occurring and this is the smoking gun. According to him, someone on the inside is smuggling out the vast Austrian reserves of copper and platinum. This thread here confirms everything they've suspected. They are now 90% certain that an agent has been diluting gold planchets with copper and platinum and using the Philharmonics to get them out of the country. The shipment was supposed to go to Arnold Schwarzenegger to finance his bailout of California. Unfortunately it seems like the shipment got swapped with ordinary Philharmonics and the fakes were accidentally distributed to the unsuspecting populace. I'll post more info as it becomes available but for now you'll just have to believe me.

Gknowmx | 07-28-2009 03:13 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? ------------- Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 1840031) Sounds like Country & Western music. Just add ... what we Need: Sex, an EX, an old pick-up, or or 18 wheeler, mixed with a loyal dog, and some WATERMELLON WINE, And Mama...... Or a GOOD BEER. :clap2::36_1_32v::36_3_16:

TheSkeptic | 07-28-2009 03:31 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1840049) Well guys, I did some digging and think I have uncovered the truth here. I placed a call to a contact at the Austrian embassy who put me in touch with the Supreme Chancellor of the Austrian Empire (I can't give you any names for obvious reasons). He informed me that they've long suspected this was occurring and this is the smoking gun. According to him, someone on the inside is smuggling out the vast Austrian reserves of copper and platinum. This thread here confirms everything they've suspected. They are now 90% certain that an agent has been diluting gold planchets with copper and platinum and using the Philharmonics to get them out of the country. The shipment was supposed to go to Arnold Schwarzenegger to finance his bailout of California. Unfortunately it seems like the shipment got swapped with ordinary Philharmonics and the fakes were accidentally distributed to the unsuspecting populace. I'll post more info as it becomes available but for now you'll just have to believe me.
And you people honestly expect me to want to pay for an assay to appease you, when I see posts like this? Part of me wants to find out, too. The other part sees the childishness (if you can't refute it, just make fun of it), ignorance, and mischaracterization, of a few and would rather save the time and money. I ask for names of reputable assayers I could consider, and no one provides any. They just want to make moronic posts making fun of something they are far too afraid to deal with head on. I ask for people to explain why, if I do have an assay done, all the detractors won't just find excuses to not believe it. No one can provide any answer yet. I do not see any reason, with the level of intelligence, thoughtfulness, and maturity typically on display here, I should expend any more effort, especially if it involves paying for an assay that no one is going to believe and everyone is going to trash. Funny.

momopanda | 07-28-2009 03:43 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1840088) And you people honestly expect me to want to pay for an assay to appease you, when I see posts like this? .
No man, nobody really cares. I think most of us are checking in here for the entertainment value.

mamboni | 07-28-2009 04:01 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? OP: Many here at GIM participated in this thread because they were willing to trust that you were being sincere and serious, and they in turn wanted to participate and help. The question you raised regarding the authenticity of certain Gold Austrian Philharmonic coins in your possession was relevant to many here at GIM who are bullion investors. It is apparent to me that you were engaged from the inception in an elaborate game of deception. There are no fake Phils. This has been a long drawn out joke on GIM and you have gotten the last laugh. But you now have zero credibility here and your posts are now just milking what was and is a bad and cruel joke. I feel sorry for you - a grown man should have better things to do than waste other people's time.:s15:

TheSkeptic | 07-28-2009 04:06 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I see. So I guess you can't recommend any reputable assayers, or take a position on whether or not I am blatantly lying about the existing assay (or was lied to)? I can't seem to get anyone to do that much. No one really wants to see this coin assayed anyway, I suppose. Who is wasting time now? And I fail to see how I would've gotten the "last laugh", if there was one - I have wasted far more time in this thread than anyone else. I have taken measurements, made videos, scanned pictures, photographed, explained processes, given updates (including stating that the rest of the coin was either all or at least predominantly copper), and tomorrow I was going to try to do a specific gravity test... what a crock of shit for people to sit here and say that I have not provided any "evidence." NO, I haven't given out my SSN, birthday, address, phone number. And no, I have not even disclosed where the theft of these coins occurred. Anyone with half a brain should easily deduct why I do not want people from GIM making random calls to the police asking about these coins, where they are, etc. I even offered to post assay results before, but it seems very clear to me that short of Jesus Christ appearing at their door with a pouch of these and a DIY Assay Kit, no one is going to believe anything that is posted. So why spend my money on people who WANT to be ignorant? And why wouldn't they believe it? Because it's not possible? No. Simple because they're too afraid to. They'd rather just sweep this inconvenient possibility under the rug than deal with it. So why should I keep going? Who would believe it if I posted a specific gravity matching 10% copper and 90% gold? Who would believe it if I posted an assay sheet showing that? Who? You? What good would it do? If you could answer any of that, maybe this circle jerk could go somewhere.

mamboni | 07-28-2009 04:08 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I for one am putting you on ignore. I suggest others do the same. You're not worthy of other GIMers time or credence at this point. Bye bye.

Ag_man | 07-28-2009 04:10 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? You want a lab for assay? Here you go, probably the best known metallurgical lab in the US, impeccable reputation; Kawin, Charles C., Co. Phone: 630-681-0008, 800-537-4012 (toll free) Fax: 630-681-0009 Address: 192-T International Blvd. Glendale Heights, IL 60139

HistoryStudent | 07-28-2009 04:29 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? What happened to COMMON SENSE? :504: Or just using good tools like a FISCH Google it! :yes::5_1_120::5_1_120::5_1_120:

barter | 07-28-2009 04:35 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1840155) what a crock of shit for people to sit here and say that I have not provided any "evidence."
A guy calling himself The Skeptic is accusing us of being suspicious. :smile:

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Gold & Silver Forum (http://goldismoney.info/forums/index.php)
- Gold - Silver - Coins - Numismatics (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=51)
- - Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=392148)

barter | 07-28-2009 04:37 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 1840190) Or just using good tools like a FISCH
Stay tuned for a new thread entitled: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit Fisch tools? :smile:

TheSkeptic | 07-28-2009 05:18 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? LOL... sorry to disappoint, but I won't be starting that thread. I don't see the point in owning a Fisch set, since we all know that there is no such thing as a counterfeit gold coin! :111: :111:

TheSkeptic | 07-28-2009 05:21 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Ag_man (Post 1840163) You want a lab for assay? Here you go, probably the best known metallurgical lab in the US, impeccable reputation; Kawin, Charles C., Co. Phone: 630-681-0008, 800-537-4012 (toll free) Fax: 630-681-0009 Address: 192-T International Blvd. Glendale Heights, IL 60139
Thanks for a breath of fresh air. They don't seem to have a website so I will just give them a call to get some information. Can anyone second this recommendation, or offer others?

TheSkeptic | 07-28-2009 05:22 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1840157) I for one am putting you on ignore. I suggest others do the same. You're not worthy of other GIMers time or credence at this point. Bye bye.
Guess that last set of questions was a little too honest for you. Bye bye to you too.

oboshoe | 07-28-2009 05:46 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1839698) We were given an assay result of 90%. Either I am lying about this, or the people who had do the assay are lying to me. I have already addressed why I do not believe I'm being lied to. .
Were we? "we" that is. I remember that you posted that you received an assay result of 90%. I've been checking in form time to time hoping that you would post the actual result instead of a hearsay version of what you received. I assume that your assay company sent you an email or a document that you could post online. Yes its possible that some will say its fake. HOWEVER, its one thing to doubt a post with a sentence that says "I just got the results back that I earlier said would take a week, but I got'm back in 12 hours and they said its precisely 90%"...and an actual assay result from a reputable assay company. Furthermore, its not even so much that we don't believe you (although good faith is getting stretched incredibly thin), its that such an assay result would be quite educational and useful to most of us here.

oboshoe | 07-28-2009 05:53 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by jedemdasseine (Post 1838950) Just an FYI, there are indeed a lot of 90% gold counterfeits out there, but they're almost exclusively made to look like rare or semi-rare pre-33 gold coins. And many come in fake slabs. Most dealers just buy them for melt and then sacrifice them to the fire gods.
Its one thing to duplicate a 90% gold coin with 90% gold. Its quite another to duplicate a 100% gold coin with 90% gold and maintain all other specifications. And that's not even getting into the amazing backstory of stolen gold, counterfeiters, gang bangers, red necks, cops who refuse to investigate counterfeiting etc)

Shasta Gold | 07-28-2009 06:04 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I was rabidly attacked when TheSkepdick bragged about his "cash for gold" scam and I called him on it (as did others). My intuition was, from the beginning, that something was very wrong with our "fellow" member. I can't stop laughing at how he has been OWNED in this thread. :23_31_2: http://images.paraorkut.com/img/funn...wned-12245.jpg

igorthesmall | 07-28-2009 06:06 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1840155) I see. So I guess you can't recommend any reputable assayers, or take a position on whether or not I am blatantly lying about the existing assay (or was lied to)? I can't seem to get anyone to do that much. No one really wants to see this coin assayed anyway, I suppose. Who is wasting time now? And I fail to see how I would've gotten the "last laugh", if there was one - I have wasted far more time in this thread than anyone else. I have taken measurements, made videos, scanned pictures, photographed, explained processes, given updates (including stating that the rest of the coin was either all or at least predominantly copper), and tomorrow I was going to try to do a specific gravity test... what a crock of shit for people to sit here and say that I have not provided any "evidence." NO, I haven't given out my SSN, birthday, address, phone number. And no, I have not even disclosed where the theft of these coins occurred. Anyone with half a brain should easily deduct why I do not want people from GIM making random calls to the police asking about these coins, where they are, etc. I even offered to post assay results before, but it seems very clear to me that short of Jesus Christ appearing at their door with a pouch of these and a DIY Assay Kit, no one is going to believe anything that is posted. So why spend my money on people who WANT to be ignorant? And why wouldn't they believe it? Because it's not possible? No. Simple because they're too afraid to. They'd rather just sweep this inconvenient possibility under the rug than deal with it. So why should I keep going? Who would believe it if I posted a specific gravity matching 10% copper and 90% gold? Who would believe it if I posted an assay sheet showing that? Who? You? What good would it do? If you could answer any of that, maybe this circle jerk could go somewhere.
This is the website where a large percentage of people believe in things like chemtrails, 30 foot giants living 1000 years ago, a government conspiracy to blow up the WTC, vaccines causing autism, faked moon landing, the US government created AIDS, reptilian aliens secretly rule the Earth, HIV does not cause AIDS, that the holocaust was an elaborate hoax, that a secret cabal of Jews have conspired for hundreds of years to control the world's money supply, income taxes are voluntary, people are being farmed for their spiritual energy, FEMA concentration camps, Big Oil companies buying patents on a secret 100 mpg carburetor and hiding it, the creature of the Black Lagoon, Bigfoot, Sasquatch, Yeti, Chupacabra, and alien abductions. A simple assay test stands no chance whatsoever against that kind of thinking!

igorthesmall | 07-28-2009 06:11 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by oboshoe (Post 1840333) Were we? "we" that is. I remember that you posted that you received an assay result of 90%. I've been checking in form time to time hoping that you would post the actual result instead of a hearsay version of what you received. I assume that your assay company sent you an email or a document that you could post online. Yes its possible that some will say its fake. HOWEVER, its one thing to doubt a post with a sentence that says "I just got the results back that I earlier said would take a week, but I got'm back in 12 hours and they said its precisely 90%"...and an actual assay result from a reputable assay company. Furthermore, its not even so much that we don't believe you (although good faith is getting stretched incredibly thin), its that such an assay result would be quite educational and useful to most of us here.
He said that it was a fire assay. The way that works is that the only information you get from it is the percentage of gold in the sample. He also said that he didnt send the sample out to be assayed, but gave it to the gold dealer who buys his scrap.

Atahualpa | 07-28-2009 06:19 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by igorthesmall (Post 1840370) He said that it was a fire assay. The way that works is that the only information you get from it is the percentage of gold in the sample. He also said that he didnt send the sample out to be assayed, but gave it to the gold dealer who buys his scrap.
None of this crap matters, the simple fact is there is no such thing as a 90% gold coin alloyed with 10% copper that weighs 1 troy ounce in the dimensions stated...end of story. :moon: Greenhorn blew his big opportunity to fence stolen goods for a steal of a price. :cry1:

oboshoe | 07-28-2009 06:25 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by igorthesmall (Post 1840370) He said that it was a fire assay. The way that works is that the only information you get from it is the percentage of gold in the sample. He also said that he didnt send the sample out to be assayed, but gave it to the gold dealer who buys his scrap.
I see. So there is no written record, just one gold scrap buyer telling another gold scrap buyer what he thinks it is and then that scrap buyer in turn posting what he was told on the forum. With an evidence chain that tight, and the rock solid reputation of gold scrap buyers I'm shocked, shocked I tell, that there are any doubts whatsoever about this a new breed of super-counterfeiters using this new uber-metal.

TheSkeptic | 07-28-2009 06:37 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by oboshoe (Post 1840333) Were we? "we" that is. I remember that you posted that you received an assay result of 90%. I've been checking in form time to time hoping that you would post the actual result instead of a hearsay version of what you received. I assume that your assay company sent you an email or a document that you could post online.
Maybe you should have read the post more carefully, or done more than just skim many of my follow up posts. 90% of the pointless, uninformed posts on this thread could be avoided if people would carefully READ before they comment. You are making statements and repeating arguments that have already been addressed numerous times. Quote:
Originally Posted by oboshoe (Post 1840333) Yes its possible that some will say its fake. HOWEVER, its one thing to doubt a post with a sentence that says "I just got the results back that I earlier said would take a week, but I got'm back in 12 hours and they said its precisely 90%"...and an actual assay result from a reputable assay company. Furthermore, its not even so much that we don't believe you (although good faith is getting stretched incredibly thin), its that such an assay result would be quite educational and useful to most of us here.
See above. I already explained why the assay was rushed and I got the results back quicker than expected. I have already explained a lot of things, over and over and over and over and over and over again, but people are too lazy to RTFP. Now - can you please second the earlier poster's recommendation for a good assayer, or can you provide one yourself? I do not want to spend the money to have an assay, then have people say the company is not known or trusted. Quote:
Originally Posted by oboshoe (Post 1840346) Its one thing to duplicate a 90% gold coin with 90% gold. Its quite another to duplicate a 100% gold coin with 90% gold and maintain all other specifications. And that's not even getting into the amazing backstory of stolen gold, counterfeiters, gang bangers, red necks, cops who refuse to investigate counterfeiting etc)
Cops who refuse to investigate counterfeiting? Are you serious? This is just ANOTHER one of the issues I have address time and time again, in terms so simple an infant could understand. People just don't read, they'd rather spout off some emotional response, knowing half the story. And has the matter of what the correct specs should be actually been decided? Take a closer look at this and the other threads about these coins. The mint contradicts their specs; individuals are showing different measurements. Who came along and set the record straight, and when did this happen?

TheSkeptic | 07-28-2009 06:38 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Atahualpa (Post 1840382) None of this crap matters, the simple fact is there is no such thing as a 90% gold coin alloyed with 10% copper that weighs 1 troy ounce in the dimensions stated...end of story. :moon: Greenhorn blew his big opportunity to fence stolen goods for a steal of a price. :cry1:
Had I not been patient, we would be facing either jail time and a lawsuit right now. I'll go with patient.

TheSkeptic | 07-28-2009 06:41 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Let's see if I can get this back on track. Maybe if I write in really big font, the kids can read it. Too bad they don't have a "Crayola" font. :111: 1) Can anyone second the earlier recommendation, or provide names of other respected assayers? 2) Can anyone state that you would believe the assay results, ie., that I would not just be wasting time and money? 3) Can anyone claim that the question of the exact, proper dimensions has been solved? The Mint says 2.0mm thick, then says 1.9mm thick, other posters get different measurements, one poster says thickness is variable and unimportant. Has there somewhere been a consensus?

Atahualpa | 07-28-2009 06:47 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? The mindset of a "scrap gold buyer in the mall" is encourage anyone with gold to dump it. Sweeping assessments that all gold coins are counterfeits is part of the seed planting needed to grow new gold sellers. I'm sure when the thugs approached his kiosk, he was quick to educate them on the proliferation of counterfeit coins. Isn't that right, newbie? I bet you told them that every gold coin brought in has turned out to be counterfeit? You little hustler:111: You made the mistake of believing your own lies, the lies you try to pull on others to part them from their goods...but this time, you took wood. :cry1: So, how much did you lose, $600 bucks? $600 dollar loss instead of a $45,000 dollar gain...yeah, you'll hit the big times alright, in your dreams.:sleepy13:

TheSkeptic | 07-28-2009 06:49 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? You'd be surprised how the financials worked out on that one. ;) Either way, to make that and more back in a day, especially with multiple locations going, would hardly be out of the ordinary. If you sat down and calculated the proportion of gold we have had confiscated to what we have sold at a steep profit, it would come out to something like 0.001%. I'm OK with that. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to try to find out where this sweeping proclamation about all gold coins being counterfeit is. Might take me a while. Could you possibly show me? I just don't remember saying anything like that at all.

oboshoe | 07-28-2009 07:00 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1840404) Cops who refuse to investigate counterfeiting? Are you serious? This is just ANOTHER one of the issues I have address time and time again, in terms so simple an infant could understand. People just don't read, they'd rather spout off some emotional response, knowing half the story. [/SIZE][/B][/U]
Just quick and to the point. I've read all your posts. Really I have. I see lots and lots and lots of dancing and explanations. Some of these explanations...well...they do not make sense. Nor do they jive with real world experience. Furthermore, some of your minor details reveal certain tells of which I've not mentioned. These tells do not reflect well on your story. (to discuss them will only incite argument and denial and is counter productive, but they are there nonethless) Understand, I'm trying to be very kind here. Tells aside, the entirety of the story and facts presented paint a scenario which is frankly incredible, unique and unheard of. I'd like to believe this story. But, some extraordinary proof will be required. Its entirely up to you if you wish to pursue it further

barter | 07-28-2009 07:05 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) Attachment 76510 ............

TheSkeptic | 07-28-2009 07:08 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I did not say I refused to do a "full" assay and post the results. I have however said that I am very doubtful if this will really do anything to convince anyone. I am just not wanting to do it if it is going to be a waste. Does that not make sense? Regarding the "story", you say that these explanations do not make sense. OK. Let's start with one that you keep harping on. Does it not make sense that a local police department is only trying to investigate the theft of a very large amount of gold, and has neither the jurisdiction, time, expertise, or reach to investigate the counterfeiting aspect? Is it not also realistic that some overworked detective still trying to put together the pieces of the theft will purposely not want to pursue the counterfeit angle, or at least refer that to someone else? And I did later say that from statements made to me, I believe the feds are looking into this.

Bob | 07-28-2009 07:49 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Ok, you want to know what you can do to prove yourself? Total cost will be about $1. Post a video of you doing the "Bottom Feeder" density measurement on said coin. Make sure you do it with an unopened bottle of water (that's the $1 cost). Make sure everything is done visibly on the video: 1) tare scale 2) weight half of coin (in grams) 3) open bottle of water and pour into a plastic (clear) cup 4) put said cup of water on scale and re-tare 5) suspend coin in water and record weight on scale (in grams) 6) calculate density (divide 2) by 5) )

andial | 07-28-2009 08:07 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? This whole story reads like an enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded by a mystery. Or is it a mystery, wrapped in a question mark, surrounded by a riddle. It's one or the other.

ds_mustang | 07-28-2009 08:13 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? From my understanding there is probably no point to doing a density measurement. As I posted from a website earlier, if the coin is made from gold with a middle section of tungsten mixed with epoxy (or other material) to match gold's density then the density will match the density of gold. So if the density test is done and it matches it still doesn't mean the coin is genuine, so what's the point. The fact is regardless of the coin in this thread there are additional sources out there explaining how counterfeiters are now making fake coins that match in weight, dimension and density. Anyone that thinks a coin can be validated with such measurements is wrong. If this is news to you (as it was to me), well welcome to the world of modern counterfeiting--you learned something in this thread at least.

Bob | 07-28-2009 08:17 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? According to poster, the coin contains copper. At this point, the coin either contains copper gold alloy (post http://goldismoney.info/forums/showp...&postcount=356) or he's going to have to come up with more excuses. There was no visible tungsten core in his scan. A tungsten core makes no sense. If it's tungsten core, the outer coin should be 24 ct. I mean, I don't want to get into the twists and turns, but a tungsten core is not on the table. Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1840551) From my understanding there is probably no point to doing a density measurement. If the coin is made from gold with a middle section of tungsten mixed with epoxy (or other material) as I posted from a website earlier then the density will match the density of gold. So if the density test is done and it matches it still doesn't mean the coin is genuine, so what's the point. The fact is regardless of the coin in this thread there are additional sources out there explaining how counterfeiters are now making fake coins that match in weight, dimension and density. Anyone that thinks a coin can be validated with such measurements is wrong. If this is news to you (as it was to me), well welcome to modern counterfeiting--you learned something in this thread at least.

momopanda | 07-28-2009 08:21 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by andial (Post 1840541) This whole story reads like an enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded by a mystery. Or is it a mystery, wrapped in a question mark, surrounded by a riddle. It's one or the other.
I keep reading cause I want to find out who's dead body was used to smuggle the coins into the country, whether they were counterfeited on this planet or elsewhere, what the KGB has to do with it, how the coins got Leo Wanta's fingerprints on them, why Bigfoot is a suspect and wtf Miss Peacock was doing in the conservatory with Professor Plum, that whore.

OutlawJoseyWalesJr | 07-28-2009 08:33 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by momopanda (Post 1840565) I keep reading cause I want to find out who's dead body was used to smuggle the coins into the country, whether they were counterfeited on this planet or elsewhere, what the KGB has to do with it, how the coins got Leo Wanta's fingerprints on them, why Bigfoot is a suspect and wtf Miss Peacock was doing in the conservatory with Professor Plum, that whore.
Well, I was anxious to find out if those coins came from Area 51 but I did not see any mention of that in this thread. My take on this is that I think they were real (24-K gold) when they came out of Area 51 but think somehow those gold coins were scanned by the bombers somewhere on the route between Area 51 and Skeptic's business. It's not Skeptic's fault, It was the scanner bombers that sabotaged The Skeptic's acid test and other tests to make it show that the gold was fake. :111: Disclaimer: I am NOT a conspiracy theorist but I am trying very hard to play one on the Internet. :biggrin:

TheSkeptic | 07-28-2009 08:47 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I can do the density test, no problem.

fasTTcar | 07-28-2009 09:03 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
The whole argument can be solved by putting all your claims on one continuous video clip. Weight it, measure it and acid test it. If all 3 do what you have claimed, you have a fantastic story that will change the bullion market. And I will pay you DOUBLE spot price for that coin. Right now, it is only a fantastic story.
My post #215 from a week ago.

ds_mustang | 07-29-2009 02:55 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1840557) According to poster, the coin contains copper. At this point, the coin either contains copper gold alloy (post http://goldismoney.info/forums/showp...&postcount=356) or he's going to have to come up with more excuses. There was no visible tungsten core in his scan. A tungsten core makes no sense. If it's tungsten core, the outer coin should be 24 ct. I mean, I don't want to get into the twists and turns, but a tungsten core is not on the table.
Reread the thread. He has said repeatedly that there is a visible core in the sliced coin but that it isn't very clear in the scans. Obviously the other material isn't copper or anything similar or the coin would not weigh correctly with the dimensions it has. So maybe you have some other magical explanation, but I still suspect tungsten or the coin would not weigh correctly. Logic keeps tungsten on the table for me, but maybe you live in some reality where copper and gold weigh as much as pure gold.

PiVi1962 | 07-29-2009 05:56 AM
Volume of 1 oz .9999 gold coins The volume of one ounce of gold is given by: 31,1035 (gr) / 19.320 (gr/dm^3) = 1.610 (mm^3) Well, just to check the specifications of the world mints here are the measures for 1 oz gold bullion coins I have found in the net. (Similar results can be found for fractionals). Coin - Diameter (mm) - Thickness (mm) - "Volume" (mm^3) - Ratio to 1oz gold volume (%) Buffalo - 32,50 - 2,95 - 2.477 - 154% Kangaroo - 32,10 - 2,80 - 2.266 - 141% Philharmoniker - 37,00 - 2,00 - 2.150 - 134% Maple Leaf - 30,00 - 2,87 - 2.029 - 126% Maple Leaf Vancouver 2010 - 30,00 - 2,73 - 1.930 - 120% --- From this table, it seems that all the mints sell at least 20% free of pure gold per 1 oz coin!!! If you check some of the Laws that define the specifications of the coins (in particular the Australian Laws), you will found that Diameter and Thickness dimensions are MAXIMUM measures (i.e. they are computed in the point of the coin with maximum diameter and maximum thickness). No mint is selling more gold than expected, and computing the volume of the coin by using (maximum) diameter and (maximum) thickness will cause huge errors. --- By the way, in the topic http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=358514 , bottom_feeder measures the volume of one (presumably) not-fake Philharmoniker, and the volume happens to be 1.580 mm^3, i.e. 1,9% from the "true" value (and less than the true value, what you have to expect from a mint that is making money out of the coin by saving on gold). This measure seems to me pretty accurate and reasonable.

Bob | 07-29-2009 09:14 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Yes, I have a magical explanation: the coin is real. But anyways, back to this thread. Well, lets see... First acid doesn't lie, but I guess it sometimes fibs because it said 18 ct, but now that's apparently not exactly right and the coin is about 90% gold because it has assayed out at 90%. So we have a 90% coin. Ok, you claim it's got a tungsten core. Tungsten has the same density as gold which is why it'd be used of course. If you used a Tungsten core to forge a gold coin, you'd be using it obviously because of it's near match for gold density. It also doesn't alloy with gold (I believe, so correct me if I'm wrong on that). So you put a tungsten core in the coin. Fine. So the coin is now 90% gold because you use a tungsten core? Is that right? What's the rest of the coin? Seems to me it's 24 ct gold which means it should not fail said acid test. So if you use a tungsten core, the coin is undetectable (except by maybe a ring test or ultrasound). That is a contradiction on what we've got here. So LOGIC tells me tungsten is not on the table. LOGIC tells me this coin is real and this is all a big waste of time. LOGIC is not why most of us are here though, that seems to be entertainment. I am simply trying to "keep up" as it were with what we are being told. A few posts back TheSkeptic informs us he knows what the rest of the coin is (or a major portion), and that's what I'm quoting. Quote:
Originally Posted by ds_mustang (Post 1841028) Reread the thread. He has said repeatedly that there is a visible core in the sliced coin but that it isn't very clear in the scans. Obviously the other material isn't copper or anything similar or the coin would not weigh correctly with the dimensions it has. So maybe you have some other magical explanation, but I still suspect tungsten or the coin would not weigh correctly. Logic keeps tungsten on the table for me, but maybe you live in some reality where copper and gold weigh as much as pure gold.

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Gold & Silver Forum (http://goldismoney.info/forums/index.php)
- Gold - Silver - Coins - Numismatics (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=51)
- - Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=392148)

TheSkeptic | 07-29-2009 09:44 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Acid does not tell you exactly how pure something is. It tells you how pure it cannot be. Just more sloppy reading. My opinion was that the coin was at least 18K, I doubted it was much higher, but I was wrong about that. Again, acid testing is for more for determining what something is not, than what it is. In a typical application, if someone brings me unstamped piece (such as dental gold), I will acid test it. If it holds up fine under 14K acid but not 18K acid, then the conclusion is that that the piece is at least 14K but not 18K. It may be .583, it may be .633, it may be .700. I cannot get an exact scientific measurement with acid. But I know that it is not .750. In the test in question, the conclusion was that the piece was at least 18K but not 22K.

TheSkeptic | 07-29-2009 09:50 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? So what is the general consensus on what the thickness at the rim should be close to? What about thickness at the field? Shouldn't that be more fixed? Isn't it possible for the coin to have a thickness consistent with the normal specs, yet have a difference in depth of the strike, to "hide" the presence of other metals? And for those who continue to say it is real, I repeat, Am I lying about the 90% assay result, or am I being lied to? Pick one.

Bob | 07-29-2009 09:56 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? You said: 3) Today - several counterfeit "Philharmonic" 1oz coins. Had never even heard of these things before, but research confirms that they are 100 Euro, .999 fine gold coins. Acid tested at 18K but no higher. I damn near filed one of them in half to be sure I got a good sample. Decided to buy two of them as 18K gold and just assume the risk. One could assume that means you tried fine graduations of 18 ct and 20 ct since you say "no higher." I'd say 90% is quite a bit higher than 75% if I was talking about purity of gold. So I don't know that I'd blame reading skills. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1841256) Acid does not tell you exactly how pure something is. It tells you how pure it cannot be. Just more sloppy reading. My opinion was that the coin was at least 18K, I doubted it was much higher, but I was wrong about that. Again, acid testing is for more for determining what something is not, than what it is. In a typical application, if someone brings me unstamped piece (such as dental gold), I will acid test it. If it holds up fine under 14K acid but not 18K acid, then the conclusion is that that the piece is at least 14K but not 18K. It may be .583, or it may be closer to 16K. I cannot get an exact scientific measurement with acid. In the test in question, the conclusion was that the piece was at least 18K but not 22K.

TheSkeptic | 07-29-2009 09:59 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? There is not a 20K testing acid. 10, 14, 18, 22. And that is not the only time I talked about the acid test. But why people keep insisting on talking about the acid test is strange to me, since you should be addressing the assay. Am I lying, or was I lied two? There are only two possibilities here.

Bob | 07-29-2009 10:00 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I think the general consensus (ds_mustang apparently disagrees) is the only way to fake the coin would be to do a shallow strike. Yes, the coin could probably have a shallow strike to hide the fact it's 10% copper, but that doesn't appear to be the case because you have measured the face and find a thickness consistent with a real coin. Just do the density test. It's the easiest thing. You should be able to do it in 5 minutes or less since you have a scale that should easily read this (don't bother with a video). Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1841262) So what is the general consensus on what the thickness at the rim should be close to? What about thickness at the field? Shouldn't that be more fixed? Isn't it possible for the coin to have a thickness consistent with the normal specs, yet have a difference in depth of the strike, to "hide" the presence of other metals? And for those who continue to say it is real, I repeat, Am I lying about the 90% assay result, or am I being lied to? Pick one.

TheSkeptic | 07-29-2009 10:02 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1841283) I think the general consensus (ds_mustang apparently disagrees) is the only way to fake the coin would be to do a shallow strike. Yes, the coin could probably have a shallow strike to hide the fact it's 10% copper, but that doesn't appear to be the case because you have measured the face and find a thickness consistent with a real coin. Just do the density test. It's the easiest thing. You should be able to do it in 5 minutes or less since you have a scale that should easily read this (don't bother with a video).
I think it would be good to video the density test, so I am going to try one later today when I go back in.

hernancortes | 07-29-2009 10:04 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Such a 'shallow strike' should be obvious when viewed next to the real deal.

ds_mustang | 07-29-2009 10:04 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1841227) Yes, I have a magical explanation: the coin is real. But anyways, back to this thread. Well, lets see... First acid doesn't lie, but I guess it sometimes fibs because it said 18 ct, but now that's apparently not exactly right and the coin is about 90% gold because it has assayed out at 90%. So we have a 90% coin. Ok, you claim it's got a tungsten core. Tungsten has the same density as gold which is why it'd be used of course. If you used a Tungsten core to forge a gold coin, you'd be using it obviously because of it's near match for gold density. It also doesn't alloy with gold (I believe, so correct me if I'm wrong on that). So you put a tungsten core in the coin. Fine. So the coin is now 90% gold because you use a tungsten core? Is that right? What's the rest of the coin? Seems to me it's 24 ct gold which means it should not fail said acid test. So if you use a tungsten core, the coin is undetectable (except by maybe a ring test or ultrasound). That is a contradiction on what we've got here. So LOGIC tells me tungsten is not on the table. LOGIC tells me this coin is real and this is all a big waste of time. LOGIC is not why most of us are here though, that seems to be entertainment. I am simply trying to "keep up" as it were with what we are being told. A few posts back TheSkeptic informs us he knows what the rest of the coin is (or a major portion), and that's what I'm quoting.
The acid test and the assay say something is wrong, so if you believe the OP the coin isn't real. If the coin isn't real there are no standards for the outer part so it might be some odd karet or even different in different parts and might show strange results for the acid test depending on how the acid test was done. All the acid test tells us is it's not pure gold which appears correct according to the assay. The mystery is how are the dimensions correct to an under-karet coin and there aren't many answers to that mystery. A core of tungsten powder (probably mixed with something else) answers the mystery and also matches the OP claim that the coin has a strange core running through it. Couple that deduction with the fact other websites are reporting such coins are being made and that's what seems most reasonable to me based on the reported facts. In my view your conclusion that the coin is real conflicts with the reported facts. So you must think the OP is lying or incompetent and if that's the case you can't draw any conclusions because all reported facts are suspect. If that's the case you can quit responding to my posts because we're basing our conclusions off totally different assumptions anyway.

Bob | 07-29-2009 10:05 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1841286) I think it would be good to video the density test, so I am going to try one later today when I go back in.
My suggestion is that one do a quick density test and get the result before wasting time with a video. You ought to be able to do this very quickly. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1841275) There is not a 20K testing acid. 10, 14, 18, 22. And that is not the only time I talked about the acid test. But why people keep insisting on talking about the acid test is strange to me, since you should be addressing the assay. Am I lying, or was I lied two? There are only two possibilities here.
There are apparently ways you can test known samples with the unknown sample to try to fine tune the results. There are 3 possibilties: you lied, the assayer lied or screwed up, or the coin is indeed fake.

TheSkeptic | 07-29-2009 10:47 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1841290) My suggestion is that one do a quick density test and get the result before wasting time with a video. You ought to be able to do this very quickly.
OK. I don't have a scale with a large enough tray here, so I will do the test when I go in tonight and have better equipment. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1841290) There are apparently ways you can test known samples with the unknown sample to try to fine tune the results.
I can't even remember seeing any 20K pieces I could've used as a base. I've seen a fair amount of 22K jewelry, and on rare occasion 21K (stamped), but that stuff is uncommon. And each day we put the previous day's purchases in the safe deposit box. They do have testing needles for this purpose, but I have only seen them in 10, 14, and 18K. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1841290) There are 3 possibilties: you lied, the assayer lied or screwed up, or the coin is indeed fake.
Exactly. One of them is true. :biggrin: What gets me is that there are people weighing in here who act like there is no assay in the picture. They act like the whole case hinges on whether or not my acid test was correct. So I'm glad you are coming around to the fact that none of that really matters at this point, since I am stating that the quick assay we had done returned a result of 90% purity. So I have to ask the same question to the others - am I lying, was I lied to, or is the coin fake?

TheSkeptic | 07-29-2009 10:52 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by hernancortes (Post 1841287) Such a 'shallow strike' should be obvious when viewed next to the real deal.
My bet is that an experienced collector of Philharmonics could very possibly sense that something was off. But to the average Joe, or to people who have not seen the coins before, I believe they would be convincing.

Metalophile | 07-29-2009 10:52 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1841262) So what is the general consensus on what the thickness at the rim should be close to? What about thickness at the field? Shouldn't that be more fixed? Isn't it possible for the coin to have a thickness consistent with the normal specs, yet have a difference in depth of the strike, to "hide" the presence of other metals? And for those who continue to say it is real, I repeat, Am I lying about the 90% assay result, or am I being lied to? Pick one.
Again, I point out there is a third possibility: 1. You're lying about the 90% assay result. 2. The assayer lied to you about the result. 3. The assayer made an honest mistake. (or didn't quote possible uncertainties in the test). As a chemist in a regulatory laboratory, I have seen #3 happen more often than most people think. To minimize #3 happening, we run all sorts of controls, blanks, spikes, etc. etc concurrently with the sample. And then when our results are in conflict with someone else's results, there may even need to be a 3rd lab, a "referee" lab to find the true value. Also, there are other mistakes which may happen such as using an inappropriate test method for the sample. Chemical assays and tests are still done by people, and people can and do make mistakes. Don't take it personally, but many here remain unconvinced that someone would go to the trouble of making such a good looking counterfeit out of 0.900 fine gold to yield a tiny profit. They find it more likely that there is human error somewhere. Did your testing acids come with testing "needles" or controls? Not knowing about testing acids, I did a search and found several companies which make testing acid kits, and at least one company also sells the testing needles of varying gold purity. Again, I'd recommend running known controls side-by-side with the unknowns when using the testing acids. Edited to add: Sorry, I omitted the 4th possibility that the coin is indeed a fake made from less than 24k gold.

TheSkeptic | 07-29-2009 10:56 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalophile (Post 1841361) Again, I point out there is a third possibility: 1. You're lying about the 90% assay result. 2. The assayer lied to you about the result. 3. The assayer made an honest mistake. (or didn't quote possible uncertainties in the test). As a chemist in a regulatory laboratory, I have seen #3 happen more often than most people think. To minimize #3 happening, we run all sorts of controls, blanks, spikes, etc. etc concurrently with the sample. And then when our results are in conflict with someone else's results, there may even need to be a 3rd lab, a "referee" lab to find the true value. Also, there are other mistakes which may happen such as using an inappropriate test method for the sample. Chemical assays and tests are still done by people, and people can and do make mistakes. Don't take it personally, but many here remain unconvinced that someone would go to the trouble of making such a good looking counterfeit out of 0.900 fine gold to yield a tiny profit. They find it more likely that there is human error somewhere. Did your testing acids come with testing "needles" or controls? Not knowing about testing acids, I did a search and found several companies which make testing acid kits, and at least one company also sells the testing needles of varying gold purity. Again, I'd recommend running known controls side-by-side with the unknowns when using the testing acids.
Thanks for your post. I will say, I have never maintained there is any good financial incentive to counterfeit a 24K coin from .900 either. Then again, there is a story on here about a woman who claimed the devil made her eat her own baby. Stranger things have happened, and for even stranger reasons. As far as I know, no one makes 22K or 24K testing needles. Another poster recommended a company I could send the half off to for an assay. Can you offer any recommendations?

Bob | 07-29-2009 11:17 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1841352) Exactly. One of them is true. :biggrin: What gets me is that there are people weighing in here who act like there is no assay in the picture. They act like the whole case hinges on whether or not my acid test was correct. So I'm glad you are coming around to the fact that none of that really matters at this point, since I am stating that the quick assay we had done returned a result of 90% purity. So I have to ask the same question to the others - am I lying, was I lied to, or is the coin fake?
What I think people are annoyed on is that this could all be solved with some simple verifiable tests. A copy of an assay result would be one. A density test would be another (with video of course). You're dragging this out and have yet to post anything that contradicts this is a real coin besides hearsay. I can reiterate my statement made earlier in this thread: Post some proof.

TechGuy | 07-29-2009 11:27 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1841352) So I have to ask the same question to the others - am I lying, was I lied to, or is the coin fake?
There is another option... That you are simply mistaken.

RossL | 07-29-2009 11:28 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by hernancortes (Post 1841287) Such a 'shallow strike' should be obvious when viewed next to the real deal.
a good scan or digital photo of the remaining sample would be nice to have. A video taken with a cell phone isn't good enough.

Bob | 07-29-2009 11:29 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by RossL (Post 1841409) a good scan or digital photo of the remaining sample would be nice to have. A video taken with a cell phone isn't good enough.
There is a scan on page 4 or so.

RealityCheck | 07-29-2009 01:58 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Someone dug up the last "fake" PM thread. For entertainment purposes only: When Silver ISN'T Silver! http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=226911

TheSkeptic | 07-29-2009 06:46 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I just tried a density test, though I will need to redo it because I didn't have any way to suspend the coin, so it just sank to the bottom. I am going to get some string and a wire hanger that I can fashion into a cradle for the coin, so I can completely suspend it in water. Will try that version out tomorrow. For what it's worth, here are the results I got: Weight of half when dry: 14.5g Weight of bowl with water (does temp make a difference?): 418.8g Weight of coin immersed in the bowl and touching the bottom: 14.4g As I said, I'm sure this is not really worth anything, I just figured I'd post the information. I will have to rig up a way to suspend the coin to get a proper reading.

andial | 07-29-2009 07:24 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1842087) I just tried a density test, though I will need to redo it because I didn't have any way to suspend the coin, so it just sank to the bottom. I am going to get some string and a wire hanger that I can fashion into a cradle for the coin, so I can completely suspend it in water. Will try that version out tomorrow. For what it's worth, here are the results I got: Weight of half when dry: 14.5g Weight of bowl with water (does temp make a difference?): 418.8g Weight of coin immersed in the bowl and touching the bottom: 14.4g As I said, I'm sure this is not really worth anything, I just figured I'd post the information. I will have to rig up a way to suspend the coin to get a proper reading.
__________

TheSkeptic | 07-29-2009 07:39 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I know, I know. Today has been pretty crazy and I neglected to bring all the equipment I would need. :s10: Tomorrow I will be sure to bring a premium grade string and clothes hanger so I can do this properly!

andial | 07-29-2009 07:49 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) Good to see you can take some kidding Skeptic. :ok:

Metalophile | 07-29-2009 08:05 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1842087) I just tried a density test, though I will need to redo it because I didn't have any way to suspend the coin, so it just sank to the bottom. I am going to get some string and a wire hanger that I can fashion into a cradle for the coin, so I can completely suspend it in water. Will try that version out tomorrow. For what it's worth, here are the results I got: Weight of half when dry: 14.5g Weight of bowl with water (does temp make a difference?): 418.8g Weight of coin immersed in the bowl and touching the bottom: 14.4g As I said, I'm sure this is not really worth anything, I just figured I'd post the information. I will have to rig up a way to suspend the coin to get a proper reading.
I suggest you use something like very thin fishing line so that it doesn't displace a significant amount of water. Or maybe measure the displacement of the string/fishing line and subtract from your result. Yes, the temperature of what you weigh does have a small effect. Weigh close to room temperature. Temperature differences can cause delicate balances to drift.

hernancortes | 07-30-2009 03:00 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1841360) My bet is that an experienced collector of Philharmonics could very possibly sense that something was off. But to the average Joe, or to people who have not seen the coins before, I believe they would be convincing.
In a 90% gold coin copy that matches the weight and dimensions of a 24K original, you're talking about adding better than a 1/10 oz. to the fields of the coin and expect a quality fake without messing up the field/device/rim contrast? I'd like to see a high-rez scan of such a fake. I've never heard of a "shallow-strike" fake.... but anything's possible....

TheSkeptic | 07-31-2009 12:36 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by hernancortes (Post 1843670) In a 90% gold coin copy that matches the weight and dimensions of a 24K original, you're talking about adding better than a 1/10 oz. to the fields of the coin and expect a quality fake without messing up the field/device/rim contrast? I'd like to see a high-rez scan of such a fake. I've never heard of a "shallow-strike" fake.... but anything's possible....
As stated, several pages back there is a 600 DPI scan of one of these.

TheSkeptic | 07-31-2009 12:40 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 2 Attachment(s) OK, not sure if I did this right at all, but using an extremely ghetto platform and cradle, I may have gotten a little closer. Yes, I was going to take a video, but my camera girl decided to crash on me after we got back from the movies. :s10: I tried to shoot the video myself, but it was hard holding the camera in at that close of an angle, and to open the sealed water bottle with just one hand. Photos, if anyone can provide me with direction as to whether or not the suspension in water was done correctly. At the time I placed the coin inside the hanger, the scale was tared to 0.0g. Weight of the coin half before immersion was 14.4g (fluctuated to 14.5). Weight during full immersion was 0.5g. But again, I'm not sure if this is done right at all, since the resulting specific gravity would be 28.8-29, and I can't find anything even close to that.

fasTTcar | 07-31-2009 12:56 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Why go through all the trouble with a half coin? If you still have a full one, weigh it, caliper it and acid test it for all to see and your point is proven. If not...

Bob | 07-31-2009 12:57 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Setup looks basically right but you're doing something wrong since it gives a density of 29 g/cm^3 (which puts it at a coin counterfeited by an alien material). I don't know exactly what you're doing wrong but it looks to me like the coin is not fully submerged. I played with a setup today so let me suggest possible things to look at. To make a density measurement, I'd recommend a taller and thinner receptacle like a glass (avoids the possibility you are touching the bottom or not submerged and avoids problems maxing out the scale). Make sure the coin is not touching anywhere. The more of the wire holder you can get submerged, the better. Personally, I'd just drill a hole and tie a piece of fishing line to it (or skip the hole and just try to tie it). Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1844715) OK, not sure if I did this right at all, but using an extremely ghetto platform and cradle, I may have gotten a little closer. Yes, I was going to take a video, but my camera girl decided to crash on me after we got back from the movies. :s10: I tried to shoot the video myself, but it was hard holding the camera in at that close of an angle, and to open the sealed water bottle with just one hand. Photos, if anyone can provide me with direction as to whether or not the suspension in water was done correctly. At the time I placed the coin inside the hanger, the scale was tared to 0.0g. Weight of the coin half before immersion was 14.4g (fluctuated to 14.5). Weight during full immersion was 0.5g. But again, I'm not sure if this is done right at all.

TheSkeptic | 07-31-2009 09:24 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by fasTTcar (Post 1844740) Why go through all the trouble with a half coin? If you still have a full one, weigh it, caliper it and acid test it for all to see and your point is proven. If not...
We no longer have the whole coin. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1844741) Setup looks basically right but you're doing something wrong since it gives a density of 29 g/cm^3 (which puts it at a coin counterfeited by an alien material). I don't know exactly what you're doing wrong but it looks to me like the coin is not fully submerged. I played with a setup today so let me suggest possible things to look at. To make a density measurement, I'd recommend a taller and thinner receptacle like a glass (avoids the possibility you are touching the bottom or not submerged and avoids problems maxing out the scale). Make sure the coin is not touching anywhere. The more of the wire holder you can get submerged, the better. Personally, I'd just drill a hole and tie a piece of fishing line to it (or skip the hole and just try to tie it).
OK, I will try again using a glass...

RossL | 07-31-2009 09:24 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by fasTTcar (Post 1844740) Why go through all the trouble with a half coin?
the density of the half coin should be the same as a full coin. Skeptic, you will need to use a scale that has 0.01 gram resolution 0.1 gram isn't good enough. You may get a better calculation on that scale if you display grains instead of grams that thick wire will be a problem also.

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- - Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=392148)

TomD | 07-31-2009 09:33 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Look at this thread, I've got pictures showing how to do it with a rig that costs $10 including the scale. The results, even with this aborted jury rig, are accurate to less than 4%, plenty close enough. Keep the mass of the hanger down to a small fraction of the coin weight. Make it out of a paper clip and a few inches of fishing mono or whatever but make it very light. You can't introduce a variable 40 times the weight that you are trying to detect. Look at this, it's very simple- http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=394946

hernancortes | 07-31-2009 10:05 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1844710) As stated, several pages back there is a 600 DPI scan of one of these.
Thanks, I see it now. If that coin was presented to me by someone I trusted, and it weighed and measured correctly, I would buy it & forget about it.

mamboni | 07-31-2009 10:10 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1845021) Look at this thread, I've got pictures showing how to do it with a rig that costs $10 including the scale. The results, even with this aborted jury rig, are accurate to less than 4%, plenty close enough. Keep the mass of the hanger down to a small fraction of the coin weight. Make it out of a paper clip and a few inches of fishing mono or whatever but make it very light. You can't introduce a variable 40 times the weight that you are trying to detect. Look at this, it's very simple- http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=394946
Sometimes, a different type of help is needed:

RossL | 07-31-2009 10:59 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1845078) Sometimes, a different type of help is needed:
I get the impression that, after a week of this thread and it's sub-threads, that you have had enough. :15_1_70v:

mamboni | 07-31-2009 11:02 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by RossL (Post 1845178) I get the impression that, after a week of this thread and it's sub-threads, that you have had enough. :15_1_70v:
You are a very wise and perceptive humanoid. As pertains to this thread: I've seen this movie before, only different actor and plot.:biggrin:

momopanda | 07-31-2009 11:08 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1845186) You are a very wise and perceptive humanoid. As pertains to this thread: I've seen this movie before, only different actor and plot.:biggrin:
Same actor, just a different 'costume'.

TomD | 07-31-2009 11:27 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by momopanda (Post 1845189) Same actor, just a different 'costume'.
Has anyone ever seen Skeptic and Finesilver in the same room at the same time? I swear if you read the fake silver thread, it is identical to this one to 2 decimal places at least. Same thread and time length, same plot development, exactly the same very unlikely claims, same tactics, same lack of hard evidence, same presentation of reams of hearsay evidence, same claims of unsubstantiated assays, same very drawn-out defensive reactions from OPs, same reaction from GIM and same result. Both claim possession of perfect counterfeits but made from slightly less pure metal than claimed by the mint, .90 or .95 instead of .999. Spooky. And both threads probably unjustly do a lot of damage to the gold and silver community by scaring the hell out of a lot of people. You have to remember that GIM members are outnumbered by guest visitors by as much a 10:1. A LOT of people are reading this. I suspect a connection between the threads.

hernancortes | 07-31-2009 12:20 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? After suffering through the entire fake silver thread, I realized how this thread begs input from AuNuggets (best poster here, what happened to him?) Gcubed, Joe Jeweler, Bullionaire....

bottom feeder | 08-01-2009 10:14 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Skeptic; Your density process is just a bit flawed. Think displacement. From your photos it looks like the wire coat hanger probably displaces as much water as the coin does thus skewing your readings (way off). Try tying the coin up with a fine (silk?) thread. And, also, with such small items such as coins you really need a balance that measures in .01 grams. bf ps: I don't think you're finesilver, like some have concluded, but what do I know?

TheSkeptic | 08-01-2009 03:44 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Thanks for the feedback. Yesterday and today have been really hectic, I haven't had a chance to stop at the store and get some kind of fishing line or silk. I will definitely redo (and video) this weekend. Also, I plan to use grains instead of grams or dwt, to ensure maximum accuracy. If I am finesilver, I don't know it either. :111:

mamboni | 08-01-2009 06:24 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by hernancortes (Post 1845327) After suffering through the entire fake silver thread, I realized how this thread begs input from AuNuggets (best poster here, what happened to him?) Gcubed, Joe Jeweler, Bullionaire....
Misery loves company.:bear_rolleyes:

TheSkeptic | 08-02-2009 02:10 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? OK, I redid the test with dental floss and using grains as weight. Video 1 shows weight of the 1/2 coin at 224gn. Video 2 shows weight at 12gn immersed and not touching the sides or bottom of the container. Also shows weight at 0 when the floss/coin is lifted from the water, and returning to 12 when it is reintroduced. Unless I am totally off here, this is a density of 18.67, slightly less than 24K gold? I didn't have any help so I couldn't hold the camera (especially at such a tight angle) while keeping everything in the frame and opening the bottle at the same time. For the next round I'll have someone hold the camera while I do the whole process at once. You Tube
You Tube
You Tube
You Tube

Bob | 08-02-2009 02:18 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Your density is right in the middle of pure and 90 %. It's also consistent with pure if the scale has resolution of 1 grain. For instance, change the second reading to 11.6 and you get 24 ct.

TheSkeptic | 08-02-2009 02:34 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Do you think the floss could have thrown it off any? Also, the scale is a MyWeigh i1200 with a resolution of 2gn. If you changed the second reading, wouldn't you also have to change the first? I did get a separate reading of 14gn, but the other two times it was 12gn so I treated that as an outlier. EDIT: I just checked another site which lists the resolution at 1gn for this scale. I trust that one more because the first site states the resolution of dwt is .1, when I know it is in fact .05. The second site has the dwt resolution correct so I assume that gn is also correct. I'll play around and see if I can get an xx1 gn reading.

Bob | 08-02-2009 02:40 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Yes it could have but probably not much. It's the displacement of the floss that matters. The suggestion was made to rare with the string hanging in the water (probably easier said than done). Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1848221) Do you think the floss could have thrown it off any? Also, the scale is a MyWeigh i1200 with ahttp://www.oldwillknottscales.com/my-weigh-ibalance-1200.aspx"] resolution of 2gn[/URL]. If you changed the second reading, wouldn't you also have to change the first? I did get a separate reading of 14gn, but the other two times it was 12gn so I treated that as an outlier.

TheSkeptic | 08-02-2009 02:44 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Assuming gold is 19.32... here are some possibilities based on a quick spreadsheet I did. 223 11 20.27 223 12 18.58 223 13 17.15 224 11 20.36 224 12 18.67 224 13 17.23 225 11 20.45 225 12 18.75 225 13 17.31 I assume it's too simplistic to say that if the coin is 90% gold, the reading would be about 17.39 (19.32x90%), since the presence of copper would affect it. What would a 90/10 (copper) density be? If I remove the 20.x possibilities from the spreadsheet, the average density is 17.95. Leaving them in, the average is 18.75. I did tare it with the string in the water, though it is possible there was some error caused by the fact that the floss was already wet when I tied it around the coin.

TheSkeptic | 08-02-2009 02:54 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? OK, this is aggravating - apparently the resolution is only 2gn. I have put about a dozen combinations of items on here in gn mode and cannot get any reading that doesn't end in an odd number. So perhaps the first site was right about the gn resolution... it is definitely wrong about the dwt though, as we measure things down to .05dwt all day. For what it's worth, new spreadsheet data: Dry Immersed Density 222 10 22.2 222 11 20.18 222 12 18.5 222 13 17.08 222 14 15.86 223 10 22.3 223 11 20.27 223 12 18.58 223 13 17.15 223 14 15.93 224 10 22.4 224 11 20.36 224 12 18.67 224 13 17.23 224 14 16 225 10 22.5 225 11 20.45 225 12 18.75 225 13 17.31 225 14 16.07 226 10 22.6 226 11 20.55 226 12 18.83 226 13 17.38 226 14 16.14

TheSkeptic | 08-02-2009 03:14 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Here are the most likely possibilities: 223 11 20.27 223 12 18.58 223 13 17.15 224 11 20.36 224 12 18.67 224 13 17.23 225 11 20.45 225 12 18.75 225 13 17.31 Removing the numbers which result in a density higher than pure gold, we arrive at densities of 18.58, 17.15, 18.67, 17.23, 18.75, 17.31. Obviously all below pure gold. While I know this test is not lab grade, I don't think this in any way proves that they are real... in fact, I believe it strengthens my case. I will try to get some better data.

TheSkeptic | 08-02-2009 03:25 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) To try to determine possible weigh differentials caused by the floss, I poured water in a container, tared that weight, then added a bunch of floss. It took quite a bit to get the scale to fluctuate between 0gn and 2gn (way more than was displaced in the video). This image shows how much floss it took for the scale to finally stabilize at 2gn instead of fluctuating between 0-2 (and always going back to 0). You guys know far more about this than me, but I'd say this means that the floss was not a factor, and any weight variation is only very slight.

Metalophile | 08-02-2009 03:43 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Skeptic, your balance just doesn't have the resolution to give us meaningful data here. If you could find one which reads to 0.01g or 0.001g you might be able to get a meaningful reading. I did a search online and found a table of specific gravities, but it didn't have an entry for .900 gold. http://www.hauserandmiller.com/reference/melting.html They do give a way near the bottom of that page to estimate the specific gravity of alloys not in the table.

TheSkeptic | 08-02-2009 03:56 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalophile (Post 1848310) Skeptic, your balance just doesn't have the resolution to give us meaningful data here. If you could find one which reads to 0.01g or 0.001g you might be able to get a meaningful reading. I did a search online and found a table of specific gravities, but it didn't have an entry for .900 gold. http://www.hauserandmiller.com/reference/melting.html They do give a way near the bottom of that page to estimate the specific gravity of alloys not in the table.
Thanks. Found these numbers on Wiki: 1 gram (g) = 15.4323583529 grains (gr); 1 grain (gr) = 0.06479891 grams (g) So, this scale with a 2gn resolution is only accurate down to 0.12959782g, whereas the scale in g mode is accurate to .1g. So it may have been better to weigh in grams after all. However, I think if I use dwt mode with this scale, it will give more accurate results. 1dwt = 24gr, and this scale is accurate to 1/20 of a pennyweight, so 1.2 grains? Going to try that. Thanks for the reference. I went to the site and based on my figures, here is what the specific gravity of a 90/10 gold/copper alloy would be: copper: 11.1617 gold: 46.5831 sum: 57.7448 1000 parts/57.7448 = 17.31758 Math is not my strong suit :no_ma:- help me out if I am off base here.

bottom feeder | 08-02-2009 04:13 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 2 Attachment(s) No, you're not going to get a better resolution by switching units. The resolution is fixed by the balance's transducer. So a resolution of .1 gram is the best you are going to do. Here is a spreadsheet of caret to density - hope it helps, but it only goes to 22k Oh, yeah, change the .txt to .xls to open it in Excel bf

TheSkeptic | 08-02-2009 04:50 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by bottom feeder (Post 1848361) No, you're not going to get a better resolution by switching units. The resolution is fixed by the balance's transducer. So a resolution of .1 gram is the best you are going to do. Here is a spreadsheet of caret to density - hope it helps, but it only goes to 22k Oh, yeah, change the .txt to .xls to open it in Excel bf
The scale specs state .05dwt resolution, which is ~ 1.2 grains... are you saying that it doesn't have true .05dwt resolution, but it is only rounding off? I don't understand why they would make it display up to .05dwt then, since 1/20 of a pennyweight is less than .1g (roughly 0.07775g). Just tried it again in DWT mode: Dry weight: 9.30dwt (223.2gn) Immersed: .5dwt (12gn) Running these numbers: 9.3/.5 = 18.6 223.2/12 = 18.58 I know slight deviations can cause problems here, but how does this stack up to the tests done by other members in other threads? A scale with resolution up to .01g is of no real use in the scrap business (even coin dealers and collectors seem comfortable weighing coins in .1g from judging by other threads), so we don't have one. I guess I could call around and see if anyone has one, but it's going to be kind of a pain in the ass to rig this up using their scale unless I just buy one accurate down to .01g. I'm not sure why or if we would ever use such a scale again, but...

Montecristo | 08-02-2009 04:57 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? To get accurate gram readings to the hundredth of a gram, not affected by breezes or people moving, you might want to try an enclosed Carat scale, generally used for weighing diamonds and gemstones, but most of them can also weigh in grams. These are accurate enough to give you the reliable readings you are looking for. 5ct=1g

TheSkeptic | 08-02-2009 05:06 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? This bad boy does +/-0.001g / 0.00005oz / 0.00005ozt / 0.001dwt / 0.00005lb / 0.005ct. But it's too expensive for something I would barely (and that's stretching it) even use, much less to buy one for all locations. I just ordered this one, we can use it as a carat scale since we run into the stray loose diamond from time to time. I'll have it in 3-4 days and can weigh the coin on it. But it just doesn't have the capacity to handle a bowl of water. Re: interference - The test was performed in an area where no one is walking by. I kept an eye on the scale; it was 100% stable the whole time.

Bob | 08-02-2009 06:03 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? The density of certain carats of gold will vary depending on what the composition is. Often in coins 90% will be 90% gold and 10% copper. That may vary in jewelry (silver could be used, etc).

mamboni | 08-02-2009 09:48 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) If it took me this long to verify a sample at work, I'd be unemployed.

jedemdasseine | 08-03-2009 12:39 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? At this point, just bite the damn coin like they used to do! Or try scratching it with your fingernail. Anyone who has any experience with gold knows how soft 24 karat gold is. Ever breathed on a 5 nines maple? lol. .900 fine gold or 22 karat or 18 karat gold won't scratch as easily. If you want at least a little precision, use Mohs scale. It works for gold, too. http://www.scienceviews.com/geology/mohs.html At worst, you'll know what you don't have.

mamboni | 08-03-2009 12:45 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by jedemdasseine (Post 1849063) At this point, just bite the damn coin like they used to do!
Yeah, I was going to suggest that the OP bite something too, not the coin.:bear_rolleyes:

TheSkeptic | 08-03-2009 01:24 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1848495) The density of certain carats of gold will vary depending on what the composition is. Often in coins 90% will be 90% gold and 10% copper. That may vary in jewelry (silver could be used, etc).
I already posted what the density should be, based on a link another poster provided. I calculated an alloy of 90% gold/10% copper. Again, I understand that these are not lab grade results, but I'm interested in hearing comparisons to these density tests from recent threads. I know at least one other poster used a .1g scale and the results weren't questioned. If my dwt measurement (.05dwt resolution) was accurate to 1.2 grains, that is nothing to laugh at. And looking at all the numbers, it is extremely unlikely that this coin has the same density as pure gold.

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TheSkeptic | 08-03-2009 01:29 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Oh yeah - tonight I saw another one of these coins. It was sold to a pawn shop and now a dealer I know has it. This one had been cut into and it looks like someone took a torch to it. It's all fvcked up, but you can definitely tell that it's one of these Philharmonics. I guess someone was trying to see how it would react under extreme heat. When I saw how badly they had mutilated it, it just reinforced to me that people who see and touch them knew/know that something isn't right about these coins. :111:

Bob | 08-03-2009 02:06 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? :banghead::banghead::banghead: D'oh! Why, why, why do I keep visiting this thread? :banghead::banghead::banghead: Do the damn fingernail/bite test. Or I suppose your fingernails are too short right now, and your business partner being the only one who has suitable fingernails to do the test is in outer Zimbabwe? This is ridiculous. The coin is real, you know it, we know it. Gah! You've yet to post anything the refutes that. You're not going to either. You were working at light speed with that 90% assay result, and your caliper work (which I'll add is INCONSISTENT with a 90% alloy). Before you can post anything that proves it's real, I'm sure the cops are gonna bust in your doors and take this coin. Can we petition the mods to re-close this thread? Please?

mamboni | 08-03-2009 08:27 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1849187) :banghead::banghead::banghead: D'oh! Why, why, why do I keep visiting this thread? :banghead::banghead::banghead: Do the damn fingernail/bite test. Or I suppose your fingernails are too short right now, and your business partner being the only one who has suitable fingernails to do the test is in outer Zimbabwe? This is ridiculous. The coin is real, you know it, we know it. Gah! You've yet to post anything the refutes that. You're not going to either. You were working at light speed with that 90% assay result, and your caliper work (which I'll add is INCONSISTENT with a 90% alloy). Before you can post anything that proves it's real, I'm sure the cops are gonna bust in your doors and take this coin. Can we petition the mods to re-close this thread? Please?
Bob: There is no spoon. There is no police report. Maybe, there is no assay report, no acid test, no substance to this entire tale. I'm just a caveman GIMer. My primitive mind cannot fathom a coin that has the exact dimensions, weight and appearance of a gold Philharmonic, and is made of gold, but is supposedly fake. Maybe there's no coin. Maybe the OP is the owner of Cash4gold and is just drumming up business (nah!). The one thing I do know is that we'll probably never know, this question raised by the OP will never be answered, and this thread will never end. :452:

Gknowmx | 08-03-2009 08:31 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? This thread long ago ceased being about whether the said coin is real or not. It has now even transitioned away from being a sporting event in which to tease the OP. This is now spiraling into a very sad story of just how far one man will go to support self-delusional tendancies. Out there in the real world, some one can't tell real from non-real-- which may inevitably devolve into not realizing what is legal and what is not. I am reminded of someone's sig here on GIM that suggests that man's capacity for the abdication of truth is virtually limitless. Well, here is a case-study. I agree, this thread has run its useful course on GIM. In fact, I think a mod should lock this until the OP can get back to a mod with responsible data. At this point, allowing this farce to continue is a black eye on GIM.

TheSkeptic | 08-03-2009 09:09 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Can someone please point out the post where it was determined exactly what the specs for a Philharmonic should be? Because the Mint contradicts itself, and posters have given differing results. If I have missed the accepted conclusion, I apologize. Otherwise, all these people talking about how the coin "must" be real because it is "exactly" to spec are way out of line. Bob, So, the density test proves that it is real gold? Did you look at the numbers? What are your thoughts? Is 1.2 grain resolution not accurate enough to at least take an interest? Or does the fact that it is not testing as real gold automatically mean that the test is wrong, since you will believe or do anything to maintain that this coin is real? Read the last few posts. Everyone mouthing off, but no one substantiating anything. I posted a couple more videos and a lot of numbers, perhaps that data could be addressed instead of going back down the "I will repeat arguments that have already been address 50 times or make emotional outbursts with no factual substance and no real relevance" path. It's funny, I have often been accused of desperately trying to defend my position at all costs (making up stories, exaggerating, omitting information, etc), yet many here are so absolutely close minded that they will not even objectively look at the evidence presented. Scans, videos, data, etc. If you do not have the stomach to handle the reality that counterfeit gold coins exist, and will continue to increase in both number and sophistication, you may find yourself rudely awakened one day.

TheSkeptic | 08-03-2009 09:21 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? And I am still waiting on more recommendations on reputable assayers, or at least second opinions on the one previously recommended by another poster.

Montecristo | 08-03-2009 09:45 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Here's the name of an assayer that is highly reputable. They are used quite frequently for settling disputes between refiners and large customers. If, for example, you send in a very large lot for refining and the refining assay result does not match your assay, this company is noted for being extremely reputable and the refiner will abide by the "umpire's" result to settle the dispute. http://www.ledoux.com/contact.html

morganchaser | 08-03-2009 10:47 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1849436) If you do not have the stomach to handle the reality that counterfeit gold coins exist, and will continue to increase in both number and sophistication, you may find yourself rudely awakened one day.
No one doubts this. They doubt the possibility that a 90% gold coin can share all of the posted qualities. That is a reasonable doubt for the exact reason that gold is valuable: it is an element that is virtually impossible to profitably imitate in density.

Gknowmx | 08-03-2009 11:16 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic;1849436 [B If you do not have the stomach to handle the reality that counterfeit gold coins exist, and will continue to increase in both number and sophistication, you may find yourself rudely awakened one day.[/B]
What we doubt is that an innumerate mall "scrape gold" dealer will ever be able to tell the difference between real gold coins and conterfeits using sophisticated McGyver-like tools such as precision coat hangers, tupperware, and kitchen diet scales. Your statement is irresponsible fear-mongering. You have admitted and duely demonstrated that you have no technical knowledge. There is no basis for this claim. As you are the OP, please close this thread.

csrobbins | 08-03-2009 03:31 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? By your own admission in your last post, this thread is nothing but an attempt to increase the fear that "counterfeit gold coins exist, and will continue to increase in both number and sophistication, you may find yourself rudely awakened one day". You keep mentioning that. For what purpose? I do not know. Maybe you are trying to get more folks into your supposed business to sell you gold items for 35% of spot. Perhaps your business does not exist. You certainly have alot of appointments etc. I find it laughable that your running a business with mutliple employess and locations and manage to find all the time to be here. We have made plenty of requests and given you enough oppurtunities to refute the allegations. You refuse, and isntead, make comments like the one above. You have lost your credibility, and quite frankly no one cares anymore. Please lock this thread.

latemetal | 08-03-2009 07:43 PM
Off topic.... To TheSkeptic, I would like to buy scrap gold from people like you. How best to ask about this? Ideas? I'm looking for heavier pieces like chains and such, and my dealings would only be "face to face".:15_1_70v:

TheSkeptic | 08-03-2009 09:38 PM
Re: Off topic.... Quote:
Originally Posted by latemetal (Post 1850363) To TheSkeptic, I would like to buy scrap gold from people like you. How best to ask about this? Ideas? I'm looking for heavier pieces like chains and such, and my dealings would only be "face to face".:15_1_70v:
I'm sure that if you approached some of the buyers in your area and offered anywhere from 96-100% spot, someone would bite. The downside to buying scrap as an investment is underkarating, but that is not a big deal if you consider all the money you save on premiums. And every now and then, you'll get an overkarated piece.

TheSkeptic | 08-03-2009 09:44 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Maybe if I make the post a little shorter (easier to read!), someone will answer: Can someone please point out the post where it was determined exactly what the specs for a Philharmonic should be? Because the Mint contradicts itself, and posters have given differing results. Another poster said that the rim measurement was variable and immaterial. If I have missed the accepted conclusion, I apologize. Otherwise, all these people talking about how the coin "must" be real because it is "exactly" to spec are way out of line. Does the density test prove that it is 24K gold? Did you look at the numbers? What are your thoughts? Is 1.2 grain resolution not accurate enough to at least take an interest? Or does the fact that it is not testing as real gold automatically mean that the test is wrong, since you will believe or do anything to maintain that this coin is real? Read the last few posts. Everyone mouthing off, but no one substantiating anything. I posted a couple more videos and a lot of numbers, perhaps that data could be addressed instead of going back down the "I will repeat arguments that have already been address 50 times or make emotional outbursts with no factual substance and no real relevance" path.

TheSkeptic | 08-03-2009 09:58 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecristo (Post 1849487) Here's the name of an assayer that is highly reputable. They are used quite frequently for settling disputes between refiners and large customers.
Thanks for this recommendation. I looked at their site and assume that they can do a non-destructive assay. Would they accept just this coin, or do you have to send in a large lot? Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1849561) No one doubts this. They doubt the possibility that a 90% gold coin can share all of the posted qualities. That is a reasonable doubt for the exact reason that gold is valuable: it is an element that is virtually impossible to profitably imitate in density.
I was told that the coin is 90% gold and that the filler was copper. That is not unprofitable. Regardless, as I have said several times before, there are reasons to counterfeit such a coin that go far beyond "profit". I'm sure these are apparent to you. Your post also relies on the assumption that the dimensions of our coin match the real ones exactly, when to my knowledge, the dimensions of the real ones have not even been settled in either this thread or the others. Quote:
Originally Posted by Gknowmx (Post 1849593) What we doubt is that an innumerate mall "scrape gold" dealer will ever be able to tell the difference between real gold coins and conterfeits using sophisticated McGyver-like tools such as precision coat hangers, tupperware, and kitchen diet scales. Your statement is irresponsible fear-mongering. You have admitted and duely demonstrated that you have no technical knowledge. There is no basis for this claim. As you are the OP, please close this thread.
.05dwt/1.2grain resolution is not a diet scale. Could it be better? Yes. And there is a high precision scale in the mail to me right now. But high precision scales are not also high capacity; so this specific gravity test may prove difficult. Downplay me all you want, but the fact is that even with my caveman like intelligence and crappy tools, I detected a counterfeit that you would've been suckered into buying without a second's hesitation. So if I post assay results (not that you'd accept them), or a video with even more accurate specific gravity results, choose your words carefully. You may be the one who looks like a fool. Quote:
Originally Posted by csrobbins (Post 1850048) By your own admission in your last post, this thread is nothing but an attempt to increase the fear that "counterfeit gold coins exist, and will continue to increase in both number and sophistication, you may find yourself rudely awakened one day". You keep mentioning that.
I keep mentioning that because of the utter disconnect from reality some seem to be having. There are threads scattered all over this forum about counterfeit coins, and no one throws a fit like they have in this one. Everyone accepts that there are counterfeits (and good ones!) out there, but no one, for whatever reason, wants to believe that some truly unremarkable Philharmonic coin can be counterfeited. Quote:
Originally Posted by csrobbins (Post 1850048) Maybe you are trying to get more folks into your supposed business to sell you gold items for 35% of spot.
I will leave you to ponder the absolute stupidity of this theory. If you need some starters, I can give you several good reasons why this is quite possibly the dumbest thing yet said in this thread. Quote:
Originally Posted by csrobbins (Post 1850048) Perhaps your business does not exist. You certainly have alot of appointments etc. I find it laughable that your running a business with mutliple employess and locations and manage to find all the time to be here.
Yet on the other hand, you and other posters seem amazed that I don't have 3 hours a day to make videos, scans, documentation, and appease your other demands with regard to this coin. I spend most of my time here when I am covering a shift and have nothing much else to do, or, when I am relaxing at home. Quote:
Originally Posted by csrobbins (Post 1850048) We have made plenty of requests
And I complied with none of them. Well, except photos. And videos of me weighing/measuring. And a scan. And videos of a specific gravity test. And the countless number of times I've addressed the same fvcking questions over and over and over again. Quote:
Originally Posted by csrobbins (Post 1850048) You have lost your credibility, and quite frankly no one cares anymore.
Then why are you here? Go to another thread if you don't care. Or, you could actually make a post addressing the new data (rebutting it, pondering it, trashing it, I really don't give a shit as long you actually add something to the facts of the discussion instead of more generalized attack garbage). Your call.

Montecristo | 08-03-2009 11:11 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Thanks for this recommendation. I looked at their site and assume that they can do a non-destructive assay. Would they accept just this coin, or do you have to send in a large lot?
Give them a call, explain the situation and ask them what your options are. I'm sure they can do any type of test you request.

TheSkeptic | 08-04-2009 10:25 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? OK, I will give them a call this week. I should also have the .01g scale in within the next two days, and will try another test then (though at 100g capacity, it will be hard if not impossible) Any opinions on the result of the density test I already did?

morganchaser | 08-04-2009 10:41 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1852486) (though at 100g capacity, it will be hard if not impossible)
I empathize. Dixie cup+soda straw tire swing+fishing line. Worst case: You've already got a hole in it, and the 1cm or so of submerged fishing line isn't going to be significant.

TheSkeptic | 08-04-2009 10:59 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Good suggestion on the Dixie cup. I figured the container wouldn't be bad, it's just the water... that stuff is fairly heavy. :)

SLV>GLD | 08-04-2009 11:14 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1ml=1cm3=1g

Firenhole | 08-10-2009 07:11 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1852486) OK, I will give them a call this week. I should also have the .01g scale in within the next two days, and will try another test then (though at 100g capacity, it will be hard if not impossible) Any opinions on the result of the density test I already did?
any news? Scale arrive?

TheSkeptic | 08-11-2009 11:49 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I did get it about 3 days ago, just haven't had a chance to redo the test. (I've barely even been on the forum since that time... I hope to never have a week as busy as last week again :111:) What concerns me is that this scale is only 100gx.01g, so it won't be able to hold very much water at all. Plus it has a small tray, so I need to go get some really tiny, light container (Dixie cup). I have to stop at Walmart later so I will do that...

BoatingAccident | 08-11-2009 07:06 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1849187) : This is ridiculous. The coin is real, you know it, we know it.
Amen to this. I keep thinking this thread will have some epic ending, but alas, I'm am continuously disappointed. The coin is real, Skeptic. You are grabbing straws here, trying anything and everything to prove that it's not...but the fact remains, you have a real coin there. You are trying to spread fear. It's not working. Try something else. :smile:

BoatingAccident | 08-11-2009 07:16 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Skeptic, instead of spending all this time on this coin....why not send it into PCGS? They are reputible, let them deal with it. Tell them you are a gold dealer and bought it from an unknown party (to absolve liability). It's a win-win for you. If PCGS says it's a fake, then you've just discovered the first...fake...philharmonic coin...ever, and you are a hero. If it's real, you've got a slabbed coin. :ok: And get the profits from it.

bottom feeder | 08-11-2009 07:21 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by BoatingAccident (Post 1863722) send it into PCGS
yeah - what he said bf

TheSkeptic | 08-12-2009 12:10 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) I had to cut another piece off the coin to make it smaller so my 100gx.01g scale could handle the combined weight of the coin and water (and so it would fit inside the smaller container). If anyone doubts the piece seen in this new video is from the same half coin pictured in the other density test videos, I will be glad to do a scan showing the pieces fitting together. Anyway, the results of this test are as follows: Dry Weight: 4.09g Immersed Weight: 0.22g I tried weighing the floss alone, and it weighs almost nothing. So there is minimal, if any, distortion of results from the floss. I have also attached a table of all close possibilities, and their respective densities. There are only three possible combinations which result in a specific gravity even close to that of pure gold, and these are outliers which produce densities that are higher than 19.3. I'm getting kind of tired of making these videos. It's a pain in the ass. Hopefully it's worth something to someone. And I am STILL waiting on someone to show me where the true proper measurements for a Philharmonic have been established. The mint contradicts itself, and another poster said that the rim measurement is vari- oh wait... I've repeated all this before. It's just that no one can seem to answer it. :thumb.aspx: You Tube
You Tube

mamboni | 08-12-2009 12:17 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) .....................

TheSkeptic | 08-12-2009 12:22 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? mamboni, Perhaps your most convincing rebuttal yet. I can definitely see the logic behind that argument. bottom feeder, Can you comment on the new video, since you have outlined the procedures for this method, I figured your input on any factors which could cause in accuracy would be helpful.

Bob | 08-12-2009 12:46 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1864841) I have also attached a table of all close possibilities, and their respective densities. There are only three possible combinations which result in a specific gravity even close to that of pure gold, and these are outliers which produce densities that are higher than 19.3.
Must.... refrain.... from.... a.... personal.... attack.... Must!!!! First off, no one cares anymore. No one believes this is fake besides you. Everyone else believes you flubbed the acid test (don't bother telling me again how acid doesn't lie) or deliberately lied. You answer questions when you feel like it, ignore things you don't, and then insult people by asking why the hell they didn't read your posts 500 posts previously. You then go on ranting that no one will tell you where to get it assayed when in fact you were told several times previously and you just ignored it. Let me go down the list. I want to emphasize that I in no way want you to make another video. 1) I don't know what the liquid is. I assume it's pure water but it can very easily be tampered with to achieve desired results. I don't think you understand enough of the test to actually do that right though. 2) You didn't need to cut the coin down. The coin was 14 grams before? You have the water at 87 grams. It would be quite easy to dump out about 5 grams of water and make it work (along with a slightly higher knot). Did you cut the coin to get just the right rounding error? 3) Your chart is silly. The readings should be +/- 0.01 grams. So why do you go + 0.03 grams? Easy of course, so you can try to force people to lean the way you want. The real results of your chart should show that +/- 0.01 grams puts the results right in the middle of 24 ct and 90% gold and is consistent with both. The fact that those those three crazy results are greater than the density of gold does not discount them, it simply points to the errors in the approach. 3a) Additionally, the string should push the density lower so that would suggest the density might be the higher values you were quick to preclude. The "weight" of the string is immaterial, it's actually the displacement that matters. Again, I don't think you understand how the test works, you're simply dividing numbers and trying to tweak them to get what you want so you can say "I told you so." 4) Did I miss anything? Probably, but who cares. In short, see Mamboni's post.

Camp Bassfish | 08-12-2009 01:55 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I'd like the last 2 hours of my life back please............:Surrender:

hernancortes | 08-12-2009 02:58 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Question to Skeptic about post #1 in the thread: Do you recall what kind of acid you used to test the counterfeit 1916 Double Eagle? thanks

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- - Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=392148)

momopanda | 08-12-2009 03:04 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp Bassfish (Post 1864989) I'd like the last 2 hours of my life back please............:Surrender:
Those two hours were counterfeit. We'll refund 108 minutes (on the assumption of 90% purity) upon your submission of a time receipt to a qualified time assayer. Thank you.

jedemdasseine | 08-12-2009 03:06 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? If the scratch test is *ahem* too difficult, here's an easier test: flip the coin. The ring----or lack thereof----of .999 fine coins is very dull, like a thud. 22k or lesser coins, like Krugerrands or Gold Eagles, have a lovely, bright chime when you flip them.

TheSkeptic | 08-12-2009 06:02 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by jedemdasseine (Post 1865138) If the scratch test is *ahem* too difficult, here's an easier test: flip the coin. The ring----or lack thereof----of .999 fine coins is very dull, like a thud. 22k or lesser coins, like Krugerrands or Gold Eagles, have a lovely, bright chime when you flip them.
Another poster pointed out very early in this thread (around the time of the first video) that the coin DID sound more like a 22K when I dropped it on the scale. And if you look at it side by side with a REAL 24K coin, you can see the difference. As I mentioned in another thread, another member here is probably coming down to see my scrap gold buying locations later this month. I will still have the coin then and he can probably give an opinion on this, if he cares to. Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp Bassfish (Post 1864989) I'd like the last 2 hours of my life back please............:Surrender:
Don't worry, they would have been as vacuous and empty no matter how they were spent. :s9: Quote:
Originally Posted by hernancortes (Post 1865121) Question to Skeptic about post #1 in the thread: Do you recall what kind of acid you used to test the counterfeit 1916 Double Eagle? thanks
Nothing different than what I did here. The Double Eagle passed though. What two coin dealers told me independently with that coin was that they strongly believed someone had taken a real coin and just modified the date and/or mintmark to add numi value. But the gold content was kosher. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1864893) Must.... refrain.... from.... a.... personal.... attack.... Must!!!!
Trust me, I know the feeling. :thumb.aspx: Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1864893) First off, no one cares anymore.
Then why are you reading and posting? :111: OK, OK, I'll be serious. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1864893) No one believes this is fake besides you. Everyone else believes you flubbed the acid test (don't bother telling me again how acid doesn't lie)
... because I guess it does. Either that, or rubbing a sample on a block and then dropping acid on it is such a delicate process. :sarc: Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1864893) or deliberately lied.
Again, the acid test doesn't matter, in light of the fact that I claimed the coin was assayed at 90%. I am either lying about that, or I am not. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1864893) You answer questions when you feel like it,
Yeah, except for those "500 posts" you mentioned where I have exhaustively answered, explained, corrected ignorant assumptions, etc... But I'm sorry this has not been fast enough. I really did want to shut down the business and just make a full time living of examining this coin, but unfortunately the job just doesn't pay much. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1864893) ignore things you don't,
I actually laughed out loud when I read this. No joke. Because you people have ignored ANYTHING in this thread that contradicts with what you WANT to hear. It's pathetic - grown "men" unwilling or unable to even debate new evidence as I present it, instead, choosing to post dumb pictures or make snide remarks that add absolutely nothing to the discussion. Why? Because they have nothing of value to say. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1864893) and then insult people by asking why the hell they didn't read your posts 500 posts previously.
500 posts = me having to repeat things 500 times, because you people purposely do not listen Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1864893) You then go on ranting that no one will tell you where to get it assayed when in fact you were told several times previously and you just ignored it.
I was given the names of TWO places. I asked for a second opinion on the first recommendation, no one would give it. Out of the multiple pages of posts made since I requested reputable assayers, only TWO have provided the name of one. The rest have mostly just been people acting like fvcking morons and blatantly ignoring the facts. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1864893) 1) I don't know what the liquid is. I assume it's pure water but it can very easily be tampered with to achieve desired results. I don't think you understand enough of the test to actually do that right though.
So is it water or not? Make up your mind. I will say this - in another thread, where a poster applied this test to his Philharmonic and achieved the DESIRED and EXPECTED result, no one questioned what the liquid was. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1864893) 2) You didn't need to cut the coin down. The coin was 14 grams before? You have the water at 87 grams. It would be quite easy to dump out about 5 grams of water and make it work (along with a slightly higher knot). Did you cut the coin to get just the right rounding error?
Are you serious? And how in the hell can a "rounding error" create that much of a difference? The density is WAY LOWER than it is supposed to be. You can fight it, bitch about it, cry about it, but it doesn't CHANGE IT. And if you want, I can go scan the coin like I originally offered, to show that I only made ONE CUT. So I got that lucky on my first try, huh? And I cut the coin not just because of weight, but because it needed to be downsized in order to fit into the much smaller container I was forced to use on the low capacity scale. NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. Next. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1864893) 3) Your chart is silly. The readings should be +/- 0.01 grams. So why do you go + 0.03 grams? Easy of course, so you can try to force people to lean the way you want. The real results of your chart should show that +/- 0.01 grams puts the results right in the middle of 24 ct and 90% gold and is consistent with both. The fact that those those three crazy results are greater than the density of gold does not discount them, it simply points to the errors in the approach.
I wanted to show you all the outliers, since I knew you would just try to tear the results apart, not because they are wrong, but because you are just so naive as to believe that these magical mystical coins can't be counterfeited! And the real results? The stable readings on the scale indicate a specific gravity far lower than pure gold. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1864893) 3a) Additionally, the string should push the density lower so that would suggest the density might be the higher values you were quick to preclude. The "weight" of the string is immaterial, it's actually the displacement that matters.
Did the poster who did this and got "expected" results have an issue made with the implement he used to suspend the coin? Anyone say anything about that? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1864893) you're simply dividing numbers and trying to tweak them to get what you want so you can say "I told you so."
Or maybe you are doing this in reverse. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1864893) 4) Did I miss anything? Probably, but who cares.
Apparently, you. And so I ask AGAIN: WHERE HAVE THE PROPER DIMENSIONS FOR THIS COIN BEEN PROVEN? I can show you dissension on what they should be. If you cannot show me a consensus, then the argument that my coin "cannot be fake" and have the dimensions it does, FAILS. And furthermore, some do not even accept the measurements I demonstrated as valid. If they are right, then again, the argument FAILS. You are basing your blind, ignorant assumption that the coin "must" be real on a premise which is not even true.

TheSkeptic | 08-12-2009 06:11 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? For those who want me to send the coin to PCGS or an assayer: I will do one of these two after the 21, which is tentatively when another member will be here visiting, and I would like them to see it first. But will PCGS even assay it? Or will they just act like these ignorant fools who think that because it's a Philharmonic (ooohhh) it just CAN'T be fake? I don't want to send it to someone who won't judge it on the merits, not some stupid assumption.

Ag_man | 08-12-2009 08:41 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Pretty sure PCGS does not assay. I would assume that they do a diameter vs weight check.

BoatingAccident | 08-12-2009 11:17 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Ag_man (Post 1865684) Pretty sure PCGS does not assay. I would assume that they do a diameter vs weight check.
I'd hope though that PCGS would be able to spot a fake coin, while grading it. A scary thought is if they couldn't...I would wonder how many 'fake' MS70 PCGS slabbed coins are out there. It would be in their best interest, to cover their asses...

GrandMasterMelon | 08-13-2009 12:35 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I say send it back to Austria and ask them what's up.

steveoc | 08-13-2009 06:18 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Does anyone know if it would be feasible to place a piece of metal near a microphone, tap it so that it rings, and then record that onto a computer for processing ? By running the ringing sound through an FFT and some signal processing filters, to get a specific 'range of frequencies' for the given coin, could this accurately identify the metal being tested ? I know I can do this anyway - but would the ring-frequency ranges be tight enough to identify the difference between 24k/22k/18k Au, and various grades of silver ? Assuming using an off-the-shelf sound card with a reasonable sampling rate of ~96 kHz**. ? Is there any data floating around on what the frequencies are for metals ? Its certainly worth playing with the idea anyway - it would give anyone a freely available and non-invasive way of testing metals with just a laptop .. no acid stains or hacksaws. If it works - Im wondering if you test a piece of metal which has say, a copper or slab coated in .999 Fine Ag - would there be 2 distinct frequencies detected in the ring ? A blended alloy should give 1 resonant frequency, but I suspect a bi-metal object may have a more complex signature. The concept has been done before (sonar / radar) .. its just a question of precision and margins of error. Has this been tried before ? If not, I might start playing with the idea myself.

bottom feeder | 08-13-2009 07:36 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1864855) Can you comment on the new video...
Sorry, on dial-up - utube no worky out here bf

TheSkeptic | 08-13-2009 09:23 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by BoatingAccident (Post 1865888) I'd hope though that PCGS would be able to spot a fake coin, while grading it. A scary thought is if they couldn't...I would wonder how many 'fake' MS70 PCGS slabbed coins are out there. It would be in their best interest, to cover their asses...
PCGS is out in this case because they couldn't really do weight/dimension analysis on a coin that has been cut in half, then cut again, and filed. I would only want to send them a whole, untouched one. I can get a whole coin for $900, but it's pretty messed up and looks like someone took a torch to it. (I mentioned this one previously) I think that they WOULD be able to look at the color and see that something isn't quite right. What concerns me about measuring dimensions though, is that the Austrian Mint has contradicted itself, and no one here seems to have reached a consensus on what they should in fact be (if you account for ridges, relief, etc.) Quote:
Originally Posted by bottom feeder (Post 1866186) Sorry, on dial-up - utube no worky out here
:thumpdown Oh well. I was just hoping you could comment specifically on Bob's assertion that despite the floss being weightless, its displacement somehow threw off the results. Is he grasping at more straws here, or is this a possibility, and if so, what could I do to offset it? Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandMasterMelon (Post 1865983) I say send it back to Austria and ask them what's up.
Think they'd send me a free real one in return? :bear_tongue: They may already know. From comments made to me a while back, I think the feds are in fact looking into it. And I had a conversation yesterday that reinforces that. For what it's worth (not much, I know, since I can't prove this), I ran into a dealer yesterday that we used to sell to on occasion back when we first started and were lower volume. He is more into reselling jewelry but he does buy a lot of gold, and sells his scrap to the same people we do (everyone around here does). We were talking shop and I asked if he had heard about the coins. He said that he had, and that they were 90%. (I had not previously mentioned the purity) He then told me that the police department had 4 of the coins taken from them. Only feds could/would do that. Again, I realize that this was a conversation that I cannot "prove" - it was just interesting and confirmed to me that we were not lied to about the assay results.

mamboni | 08-13-2009 09:58 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1866274) I think that they WOULD be able to look at the color and see that something isn't quite right. What concerns me about measuring dimensions though, is that the Austrian Mint has contradicted itself, and no one here seems to have reached a consensus on what they should in fact be (if you account for ridges, relief, etc.)
Don't waste your time consulting with the Austrian Mint - they only make the coin. They wouldn't know a genuine one from a fake.:sarc: Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1866274) They may already know. From comments made to me a while back, I think the feds are in fact looking into it. And I had a conversation yesterday that reinforces that.
With which Federal agency are you speaking? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1866274) For what it's worth (not much, I know, since I can't prove this), I ran into a dealer yesterday that we used to sell to on occasion back when we first started and were lower volume. He is more into reselling jewelry but he does buy a lot of gold, and sells his scrap to the same people we do (everyone around here does). We were talking shop and I asked if he had heard about the coins. He said that he had, and that they were 90%. (I had not previously mentioned the purity) He then told me that the police department had 4 of the coins taken from them. Only feds could/would do that. Again, I realize that this was a conversation that I cannot "prove" - it was just interesting and confirmed to me that we were not lied to about the assay results.
What's the dealer's name? Obviously there's no reason to keep it a secret, unless you're contriving this entire tale. You said earlier that another GIMer is coming to see your setup on the 21. Who is it?

Bob | 08-13-2009 10:19 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? It's not my assertion, it's Archimedes' assertion. Why don't you go read up here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy and then when you are done you can read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion. I merely pointed out that it's the displacement of the thread, not the weight. If you bothered to read the "Bottom Feeder" thread, Mamboni explains how you can compensate for it. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1866274) Oh well. I was just hoping you could comment specifically on Bob's assertion that despite the floss being weightless, its displacement somehow threw off the results.

TheSkeptic | 08-13-2009 10:36 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1866310) Don't waste your time consulting with the Austrian Mint - they only make the coin. They wouldn't know a genuine one from a fake.:sarc:
Show me where I said they could not determine it was fake. I did not say that. And wasn't it you who said they would no longer purchase these coins because of the unprofessional response by the Mint? Maybe I have you confused with another poster. Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1866310) With which Federal agency are you speaking?
The CIA, duh. The one I work for. But no, in all seriousness (though I do in fact work for the CIA, in a desperate effort to somehow undermine the bullion market by making hotly disputed statements on some forum no one in power gives a good god damn about), I was referring to a much earlier post, and a conversation I had with someone at the company we sell to. He indirectly told me that the feds had gotten involved. I have not directly spoken with any federal agency about this, nor do I care to. And just so you don't accuse me of mixing up stories - I am talking about two distinct conversations here. Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1866310) What's the dealer's name? Obviously there's no reason to keep it a secret, unless you're contriving this entire tale.
Other than his privacy, none. I do not want a bunch of crackpots harassing the guy, just like I didn't want a bunch of them calling the local PD asking questions which would potentially lead to problems for me (since I am not really supposed to have retained the half of the coin that I did - is that really so hard for you people to get through your thick skulls - privacy is a necessity for me for that very reason) Oh yeah - what's your name? Where do you live? Where do you work? What's your phone number? I'd like to call and verify that you really don't work for the CIA. Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1866310) You said earlier that another GIMer is coming to see your setup on the 21. Who is it?
Why is that any of your business, and who are you to ask? Let me answer those rhetorical questions - a) it is none of your business and b) you have absolutely no reason to need to know, despite your delusional sense of importance. If this person comes, and wants to comment on the coin and/or my operation, they are free to do so. That's up to them. I am not going to subject them to the behavior on display here. If they want to get involved, they can. Mamboni, you said you were going to put me on ignore. If then is nothing to my claim, then please just DO IT. But the very fact that you are still here, still talking, still asking questions, tells me that you know there is something to what I am saying. Tell me, how many Philharmonics do you have sitting in your Bank of Amerika safe deposit box? :111: Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1866340) It's not my assertion, it's Archimedes' assertion. Why don't you go read up here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy and then when you are done you can read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion. I merely pointed out that it's the displacement of the thread, not the weight. If you bothered to read the "Bottom Feeder" thread, Mamboni explains how you can compensate for it.
I will check that out. In the meantime, care to comment on the rest of my post?

Gcubed | 08-13-2009 10:37 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Fire Assay settles all "disputes".

Bob | 08-13-2009 10:40 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Gcubed (Post 1866366) Fire Assay settles all "disputes".
There's no way we're getting a real assay here. If there is an assay done, he won't be able to post the results, and will just have to tell them to us.

TheSkeptic | 08-13-2009 10:43 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Gcubed (Post 1866366) Fire Assay settles all "disputes".
... the one I already had sure didn't. :111: Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1866371) There's no way we're getting a real assay here. If there is an assay done, he won't be able to post the results, and will just have to tell them to us.
No, I could scan and post them with no problem. You'd just bury your head in the sand and find some reason to not believe them. I can already name several things that will be said, rendering the money I spend for an assay to be a complete waste. But I'll do it anyway, which will be the ironic thing. But just so you can start prepping, here is a list: I modified the assay result document in Photoshop The assay was not performed on the same coin The assayer works for the CIA

mamboni | 08-13-2009 11:08 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1866362) Show me where I said they could not determine it was fake. I did not say that. And wasn't it you who said they would no longer purchase these coins because of the unprofessional response by the Mint? Maybe I have you confused with another poster.
Yes, you are confused.:10_1_19: Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1866362) The CIA, duh. The one I work for. But no, in all seriousness (though I do in fact work for the CIA, in a desperate effort to somehow undermine the bullion market by making hotly disputed statements on some forum no one in power gives a good god damn about), I was referring to a much earlier post, and a conversation I had with someone at the company we sell to. He indirectly told me that the feds had gotten involved. I have not directly spoken with any federal agency about this, nor do I care to.
So, you were embellishing your story to deliberately imply that you had spoken directly to a "Fed" when in fact you spoke to no one. What's the name of the "company we sell to" or is that a highly guarded trade secret? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1866362) And just so you don't accuse me of mixing up stories - I am talking about two distinct conversations here. Other than his privacy, none. I do not want a bunch of crackpots harassing the guy
Right:sarc:. We were all planning on looking the guy up in the phone directory and ask him all about your fake coins that have the Austrian Mint completely flummoxed. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1866362) , just like I didn't want a bunch of them calling the local PD asking questions which would potentially lead to problems for me (since I am not really supposed to have retained the half of the coin that I did - is that really so hard for you people to get through your thick skulls - privacy is a necessity for me for that very reason)
Sure, that makes sense. Everyone knows that anyone can call the police to obtain information about an investigation with which they have absolutely no connection.:sarc: Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1866362) Oh yeah - what's your name? Where do you live? Where do you work? What's your phone number? I'd like to call and verify that you really don't work for the CIA.
I don't exist as far as you're concerned. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1866362) Why is that any of your business, and who are you to ask?
You started this thread. If you are so sensitive to inquiry you should lock it or better yet, delete this load of utter contrived BS. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1866362) Let me answer those rhetorical questions - a) it is none of your business and b) you have absolutely no reason to need to know, despite your delusional sense of importance. If this person comes, and wants to comment on the coin and/or my operation, they are free to do so. That's up to them. I am not going to subject them to the behavior on display here. If they want to get involved, they can.
If you can't reveal the name of the GIMer then there is no such person and you have contrived the entire matter. There is nothing secret about a username, Sherlock. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1866362) Mamboni, you said you were going to put me on ignore. If then is nothing to my claim, then please just DO IT. But the very fact that you are still here, still talking, still asking questions, tells me that you know there is something to what I am saying. Tell me, how many Philharmonics do you have sitting in your Bank of Amerika safe deposit box? :111:
I'm here for a good laugh - this entire thread is a complete joke being foisted by you on the members here. You have no objection to my participating in your little game do you?:biggrin: Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1866362) In the meantime, care to comment on the rest of my post?
Yes. For a man who makes his living in the gold scrap business, you have an awful lot of time to post long and tortured responses to comments in this thread; yet you've had a purported fake gold coin, your claimed stock and trade, in your possession for a month and you still haven't figured out what it's made of. So, please tell us, what other gold items have you processed in the last month - be specific so we know you aren't making it up.:111:

Gcubed | 08-13-2009 12:14 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Mamboni, I'm sure that you have this guys "number".

fasTTcar | 08-13-2009 12:38 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? As asked about 3 times already. Show us a failed acid test video on the coin or fragment.

TheSkeptic | 08-13-2009 04:15 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1866410) So, you were embellishing your story to deliberately imply that you had spoken directly to a "Fed" when in fact you spoke to no one.
That is not what I said. RTFP. It's several pages back, but surely if you can take the time to twist my words, you can take the time to dig a little. Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1866410) We were all planning on looking the guy up in the phone directory and ask him all about your fake coins that have the Austrian Mint completely flummoxed. Sure, that makes sense. Everyone knows that anyone can call the police to obtain information about an investigation with which they have absolutely no connection.:sarc:
Oh? Then what good would it do for me to provide the name? Why would it be worth compromising my privacy? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1866410) I don't exist as far as you're concerned.
Oh... so you don't want to give out your personal info and ID yourself... but I'm expected to? :111: Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1866410) You started this thread. If you are so sensitive to inquiry you should lock it or better yet, delete this load of utter contrived BS.
I started this thread as a simple rant, not a grand inquisition into some coin. So no, I am not obligated to do jack shit. Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1866410) If you can't reveal the name of the GIMer then there is no such person and you have contrived the entire matter.
Perhaps I just have a better sense of privacy, respect, and discretion than you do. Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1866410) Yes. For a man who makes his living in the gold scrap business, you have an awful lot of time to post long and tortured responses to comments in this thread; yet you've had a purported fake gold coin, your claimed stock and trade, in your possession for a month and you still haven't figured out what it's made of. So, please tell us, what other gold items have you processed in the last month - be specific so we know you aren't making it up.:111:
I've "processed" mostly jewelry. We go to sell every week ("the people we sell to"), Today just happened to be that day, so I decided to take a snapshot before I went in. I even happened to have a cigar - your trademark! - so I was sure to include it in the shot. Weight is right around 51 ozt. **Disclaimer: The below image does not depict actual gold bought at scrap gold locations. It is a pool we threw together. Everyone at Langley chipped in, to further the illusion of my fake scrap gold business, which is really the backdrop for our master plan to destroy confidence in gold by discrediting some gay coin that no one has confirmed a counterfeit of yet.

TheSkeptic | 08-13-2009 04:19 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by fasTTcar (Post 1866536) As asked about 3 times already. Show us a failed acid test video on the coin or fragment.
Fair's fair. I'll do one. Though I have asked WAY more than 3 times for definitive specs on this coin. No one can answer that one. :biggrin:

rodzm | 08-13-2009 04:26 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? TheSkeptic...great fan post, absolutely love it. I for one look forward to this thread's daily posts. Quite entertaining but at the same time Ive learned a few things. I think a lot of us want to get to the bottom of this. No need to close or shut down the thread. My philosophy is...you dont like it??? DO NOT READ IT...or POST ON IT

mamboni | 08-13-2009 04:56 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1866948) That is not what I said. RTFP. It's several pages back, but surely if you can take the time to twist my words, you can take the time to dig a little. Oh? Then what good would it do for me to provide the name? Why would it be worth compromising my privacy? Oh... so you don't want to give out your personal info and ID yourself... but I'm expected to? :111: I started this thread as a simple rant, not a grand inquisition into some coin. So no, I am not obligated to do jack shit. Perhaps I just have a better sense of privacy, respect, and discretion than you do. I've "processed" mostly jewelry. We go to sell every week ("the people we sell to"), Today just happened to be that day, so I decided to take a snapshot before I went in. I even happened to have a cigar - your trademark! - so I was sure to include it in the shot. Weight is right around 51 ozt. **Disclaimer: The below image does not depict actual gold bought at scrap gold locations. It is a pool we threw together. Everyone at Langley chipped in, to further the illusion of my fake scrap gold business, which is really the backdrop for our master plan to destroy confidence in gold by discrediting some gay coin that no one has confirmed a counterfeit of yet.
Well, I'm impressed - maybe you are legit, if incompetent. Then again, that could be bags of costume jewelry, or a photoshop special.

TheSkeptic | 08-13-2009 06:37 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1867033) Well, I'm impressed - maybe you are legit, if incompetent. Then again, that could be bags of costume jewelry, or a photoshop special.
There is a point where finding excuses to deny reality goes from humorous to pathetic.

TheSkeptic | 08-13-2009 06:42 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Bob, mamboni, I really do want to go with the flow of your hit and run posting style, but I would be ever so grateful if you could answer.... Bob, The points you ignored in post 483. So basically, 90% of the post. Mamboni, Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1866410) So, you were embellishing your story to deliberately imply that you had spoken directly to a "Fed" when in fact you spoke to no one.
That is not what I said. RTFP. It's several pages back, but surely if you can take the time to twist my words, you can take the time to dig a little. Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1866410) We were all planning on looking the guy up in the phone directory and ask him all about your fake coins that have the Austrian Mint completely flummoxed. Sure, that makes sense. Everyone knows that anyone can call the police to obtain information about an investigation with which they have absolutely no connection.:sarc:
Oh? Then what good would it do for me to provide the name? Why would it be worth compromising my privacy? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1866410) I don't exist as far as you're concerned.
Oh... so you don't want to give out your personal info and ID yourself... but I'm expected to? And I forgot about this one last time - Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1866410) Yes. For a man who makes his living in the gold scrap business, you have an awful lot of time to post long and tortured responses to comments in this thread; yet you've had a purported fake gold coin, your claimed stock and trade, in your possession for a month and you still haven't figured out what it's made of.
Huh? I've told you for quite a while now, it's 90% gold and 10% copper.

mamboni | 08-13-2009 06:44 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1867207) There is a point where finding excuses to deny reality goes from humorous to pathetic.
Look in the mirror.

TheSkeptic | 08-13-2009 06:53 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? OK, you got that out of the way, please address whatever facts you can, and continue to ignore (or mock) the others.

TheSkeptic | 08-13-2009 06:56 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? And STILL waiting on someone to prove that my coin cannot have the dimensions it does and not be pure gold. No one, including the Austrian Mint, has provided conclusive dimensions. If you think I'm making this up, carefully read the multiple threads about these coins. Still waiting on a lot of answers from you people, come to think of it. :111:

Bob | 08-13-2009 07:36 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? You want me to address all of this post, fine. My "hit and run" style has largely been because I don't really care anymore and only respond to what I really really really feel like. You called me on this, so here goes, 100%: Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1865445) Another poster pointed out very early in this thread (around the time of the first video) that the coin DID sound more like a 22K when I dropped it on the scale. And if you look at it side by side with a REAL 24K coin, you can see the difference.
Not sure my ears are qualified to make any comments on the ringing of a 24 ct vs a non 24 ct coin. Quote:
As I mentioned in another thread, another member here is probably coming down to see my scrap gold buying locations later this month. I will still have the coin then and he can probably give an opinion on this, if he cares to.
Ok, have said member comment. Quote:
Don't worry, they would have been as vacuous and empty no matter how they were spent. :s9: Nothing different than what I did here. The Double Eagle passed though. What two coin dealers told me independently with that coin was that they strongly believed someone had taken a real coin and just modified the date and/or mintmark to add numi value. But the gold content was kosher.
Umm, ok? Sure? Not sure what I should say. Quote:
Trust me, I know the feeling. :thumb.aspx: Then why are you reading and posting? :111: OK, OK, I'll be serious.
Still here mostly for amusement and because occasionally you say something that forces me to have to respond. Quote:
... because I guess it does. Either that, or rubbing a sample on a block and then dropping acid on it is such a delicate process. :sarc:
Apparently we disagree here. I think if you're not just completely yanking everyone's chain that the obvious solution is you have screwed up the acid test. The other choice is that you are lying about the acid test. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt Quote:
Again, the acid test doesn't matter, in light of the fact that I claimed the coin was assayed at 90%. I am either lying about that, or I am not.
Or the margin of error is so great that 90% is consistent with gold. We still have no idea of the margin of error on this test. The other choice is, yes, you are lying. Quote:
Yeah, except for those "500 posts" you mentioned where I have exhaustively answered, explained, corrected ignorant assumptions, etc... But I'm sorry this has not been fast enough. I really did want to shut down the business and just make a full time living of examining this coin, but unfortunately the job just doesn't pay much.
You have been consistently quick to toss down things that you claim prove your point. You whipped out the calipers and were getting those videos out very quick. After that, you slowed down and have dragged this out to no end. For that matter, you first claimed it would take a week for an assay and then you got one within a few hours. Then it takes you 3 days from the time the scale arrives to post any results. One could speculate you were dragging your feet trying to get the results the way you wanted. Quote:
I actually laughed out loud when I read this. No joke. Because you people have ignored ANYTHING in this thread that contradicts with what you WANT to hear. It's pathetic - grown "men" unwilling or unable to even debate new evidence as I present it, instead, choosing to post dumb pictures or make snide remarks that add absolutely nothing to the discussion. Why? Because they have nothing of value to say.
There have been no real contradictions. Let's assume here that TomD has a real coin (and I believe he did a density test on it so that seems reasonable). Now, I have no idea on the official mint specs on the coin, but I do have the results that Tom posted. Your results are pretty much spot on with his results. Quote:
500 posts = me having to repeat things 500 times, because you people purposely do not listen
I can't really comment on everyone's listening ability. Quote:
I was given the names of TWO places. I asked for a second opinion on the first recommendation, no one would give it. Out of the multiple pages of posts made since I requested reputable assayers, only TWO have provided the name of one. The rest have mostly just been people acting like fvcking morons and blatantly ignoring the facts.
Honestly, after the speed of the first assay, it seems like you're just stalling here. People have consistently said they want a scan of a real assay with margin of error and content. Quote:
So is it water or not? Make up your mind. I will say this - in another thread, where a poster applied this test to his Philharmonic and achieved the DESIRED and EXPECTED result, no one questioned what the liquid was.
I'm really not questioning the water except for a devils advocate type approach. Do I think it's water? Yeah, probably mainly cause I don't think you know what to do to it to mess with the results. The people who posted other results posted expected results. We aren't performing a scientific experiment, we're simply verifying things. We also aren't making extraordinary claims. As has been said several times already, if you make extraordinary claims, you better have some decent proof. Quote:
Are you serious? And how in the hell can a "rounding error" create that much of a difference? The density is WAY LOWER than it is supposed to be. You can fight it, bitch about it, cry about it, but it doesn't CHANGE IT. And if you want, I can go scan the coin like I originally offered, to show that I only made ONE CUT. So I got that lucky on my first try, huh?
The smaller the coin, the greater impact small errors have. So those rounding errors can be more significant. Again as I mentioned, and I didn't feel like going into much on it, the string's volume can mess the results slightly. I did a little test and I could get up to 0.02 grams from some fishing line. I'm not posting that with anything to back myself up because it was a quick test and I didn't tie things, I used my hand so maybe I bumped things. Maybe though, the string only made 0.007 difference which would make real gold look like 95% gold or something because the scale has a limited resolution. I'd post these things if I had an easy way to make videos which I don't really. I'd also probably be contradicting myself on the not caring part. Quote:
And I cut the coin not just because of weight, but because it needed to be downsized in order to fit into the much smaller container I was forced to use on the low capacity scale. NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.
I've used the smaller capacity scales myself so I understand the difficulties. Many of these comments are made because of your claims and lack of real evidence and my annoyance with this thread. Now, I know you could have gotten the original to work with the 100 gram limit. I could assume the worst or the best. I flipped a coin and went with the worst. Quote:
Next. I wanted to show you all the outliers, since I knew you would just try to tear the results apart, not because they are wrong, but because you are just so naive as to believe that these magical mystical coins can't be counterfeited! And the real results? The stable readings on the scale indicate a specific gravity far lower than pure gold.
Ok, to take the results from a scientific perspective, it probably suffices to look at only variations in the buoyancy number simply because +- 0.01 grams has a far greater effect on that number than it does on the (larger) coin weight. So let me look at your numbers here with these assumptions Dry Weight: 4.09g Immersed Weight: 0.22g +/- 0.01g If it's 0.21g, we get 19.48 (pure gold within accuracy of the equipment). If it's 0.22g, we have 18.59 which looks like 93% gold. And finally if it's 0.23g, we have 85% gold. From a scientific perspective, the data says absolutely nothing. It's consistent with any result you want. NOW, IF YOU WANT TO, you can look at things you did wrong and try to extrapolate from the meaningless data (well it's not meaningless, it tells us the range is approximately 85%-100% gold) we can look at what you did wrong. And one thing I can point out is that you failed to tare the floss in there (again, mass of floss is not what you tare, you tare with the floss submerged which is going to be tricky especially if you try and tie it). If you really want suggestions on doing this without the string messing you up, I can give them. Quote:
Did the poster who did this and got "expected" results have an issue made with the implement he used to suspend the coin? Anyone say anything about that?
Nope, then again they weren't trying to publish their results. If they were, we could start ripping apart their calculations. Quote:
Or maybe you are doing this in reverse. Apparently, you.
Not sure the context of this since I lost the quoted material. Umm, no comment? You can also rip my results since I didn't even post a picture or a video. Then again, I'm not trying to do anything extraordinary with my claims. Quote:
And so I ask AGAIN: WHERE HAVE THE PROPER DIMENSIONS FOR THIS COIN BEEN PROVEN? I can show you dissension on what they should be.
There seem to be some mint specs which you have which measure the rim. If you want to measure the rim, you probably want to use the precision instrument Tom mentioned. As far as I can tell, you haven't tried to submit your measurement of the rim, so for all we know, it's coming out at 2mm. What I would use as a data point is Tom's precision measurement of a coin. Quote:
If you cannot show me a consensus, then the argument that my coin "cannot be fake" and have the dimensions it does, FAILS.
I'm taking Tom's results as accurate (if you want to dispute those, say so) and using that as my reference point. We don't really know what the mint did, but I do know what Tom did and I was able to have him measure the coin in certain areas. Quote:
And furthermore, some do not even accept the measurements I demonstrated as valid. If they are right, then again, the argument FAILS.
If your measurement results are correct the coin has to be fake? I don't follow. You're measurements are below Tom's in thickness (which seems to be from you clamping extra hard), yet you claim the coin is 10% copper. 10% copper would mean the coin would have to have a light strike and be thicker than Tom's measurements so I don't see how the argument fails. Quote:
You are basing your blind, ignorant assumption that the coin "must" be real on a premise which is not even true.
I assume the coin is real unless I see results which prove otherwise. You have posted nothing inconsistent with pure gold besides hearsay. All your density tests are consistent with pure gold (within the margin of error), all you measurements are also consistent with Tom's within error. I see no proof, hence I conclude it's real. Did I address everything you wanted me to? Did I miss anything?

TheSkeptic | 08-13-2009 08:41 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Bob, I commend you, an honest to god post. I have no problem with disagreement - it is just when people disagree blindly, or with no real factual basis. So believe it or not, I am actually glad for your post, which seems like it can further the discussion. And to clarify, I was not expecting answers to everything in that post, just the statements directed to you. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1867291) Apparently we disagree here. I think if you're not just completely yanking everyone's chain that the obvious solution is you have screwed up the acid test. The other choice is that you are lying about the acid test. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt
But what baffles me is this insistence on going back to the acid test. Why does it even matter? Either the coin fire assayed at 90%, or it didn't. I don't know what the margin of error was - but to say it is 10% on a fire assay is a little extreme. Here's the thing - you did not personally witness the acid test, or the assay. Thus, since an assay (especially fire) is a MUCH MORE PRECISE measure than an acid test, your focus should be on that. Even if I did somehow screw up the acid test, does this change the assay results? If so, how? The possibility has been raised that I could be lying about the assay results, or, that I was lied to about them in some effort to get me for $100 or so (from a company which deals in millions of dollars of gold a week. And furthermore, I told the owner upfront that I thought the coin was 18K, if he was going to lie, I would've believed a 75% pure figure and he knew it. But I digress.). Yet regardless, the acid test is completely irrelevant to the discussion in the presence of a test which is much more precise and telling. It seems you trust that I got the results I did from the acid test, yet I misread those results. Yet then you turn around and imply that I am blatantly lying (or was lied to) about the fire assay. That just doesn't make sense. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1867291) You have been consistently quick to toss down things that you claim prove your point. You whipped out the calipers and were getting those videos out very quick. After that, you slowed down and have dragged this out to no end.
My interest level in the coin when this first started was very high. Since that time: we have signed another lease for the third location, and negotiated with another mall for our planned fourth location we have gone through many of the innumerable tasks involved in setting up another location - not to mention that this one is a storefront that will also be selling jewelry. Licensing, signage, painting, furniture, moving a 1500lb safe 35 miles, ordering equipment, etc... I have gone on two short vacations we have hired and trained more employees I have been constantly attacked and accused of all sorts of things, because I call into question the authenticity of this coin So yeah, my interest level has declined tremendously. It's human nature. It is not my full time job to update GIM on this coin. I have absolutely no obligation whatsoever to anyone here. You act as if I'm being paid to do this. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1867291) For that matter, you first claimed it would take a week for an assay and then you got one within a few hours.
This is exactly what I am talking about. You have brought this up several times, yet I have explained it OVER and OVER. You just don't listen. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1867291) Then it takes you 3 days from the time the scale arrives to post any results. One could speculate you were dragging your feet trying to get the results the way you wanted.
:111: Are you serious? Did you see any posts from me on this forum during those 3 days? I may have made a couple, if that. I barely even looked at it. I was busy as hell for several days in a row, then I went out of town for the day on Sunday to rest. So now you are using the fact that I have obligations and a life outside of this forum to somehow discredit my claim? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1867291) There have been no real contradictions. Let's assume here that TomD has a real coin (and I believe he did a density test on it so that seems reasonable). Now, I have no idea on the official mint specs on the coin, but I do have the results that Tom posted.
The mint contradicted itself on the thickness measurement (they privately told one poster 1.9mm, but all other sources says 2mm). No big deal though right? After all, another poster commented that the thickness at rim is "variable and unimportant." Yet there have been discussions (probably more so in the other threads) that have really muddied the water about what the true dimensions should be, when you factor in relief/ridges/field area/etc. No one has reached any real conclusion on this, yet everyone who writes this coin off as real base that assumption largely on the premise that it is "too close to spec to be fake." Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1867291) Your results are pretty much spot on with his results.
Really now... his results weren't closer to pure gold? And I still don't understand how his implement displaced less water than mine did. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1867291) Honestly, after the speed of the first assay, it seems like you're just stalling here. People have consistently said they want a scan of a real assay with margin of error and content.
And here I am, AGAIN, explaining that I did not GET a certificate. Any time we have unknowns (for instance, some weird gold shards we bought), we give it to them, they test it, and we get paid next time we go in. There is no big formal paperwork. I know that sounds crazy, but if you go back and read the post where I described my relationship with these people and why I trust them, you would understand why. I did ask about a certificate but I doubt one was ever issued. I understand the need for one, and DO plan to have the remaining part assayed either by one of the places recommended, or by a member who contacted me privately offering to do a non-destructive assay. I think another member post his spectrograph results would carry more weight than posting an assay certificate from a third party, since you will simply say "it isn't the same coin." Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1867291) We aren't performing a scientific experiment, we're simply verifying things. We also aren't making extraordinary claims. As has been said several times already, if you make extraordinary claims, you better have some decent proof.
Ah, the heart of the matter. Here's where you are wrong: I am not making an extraordinary claim. Wow - I claim that a gold coin has been counterfeited? Stop the presses! Big fvcking deal. Do you not believe coins are counterfeited? Seriously? Are you that naive? Let's just pretend that this one was in fact real. Do you honestly think no one would ever counterfeit it? Give me a BREAK. My claim is about extraordinary and revelatory as saying that Barack Obama is a bad president. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1867291) The smaller the coin, the greater impact small errors have. So those rounding errors can be more significant.
OK... so if I spend $900 and buy the whole one I've seen that has had a torch taken to it, could a proper SG test be performed on it? I mean, would the fact that someone has partially melted the face mean anything? It's supposed to be .999, so losing some to the heat wouldn't make a difference in density, but I thought I'd ask. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1867291) I've used the smaller capacity scales myself so I understand the difficulties.
... but. Well, I admit I seem to have made a mistake. I did not believe that I could get the full half plus the weight of the container and water onto the scale without overloading it, but perhaps I was wrong. I simply cut it apart and I should not have done that. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1867291) Ok, to take the results from a scientific perspective, it probably suffices to look at only variations in the buoyancy number simply because +- 0.01 grams has a far greater effect on that number than it does on the (larger) coin weight. So let me look at your numbers here with these assumptions Dry Weight: 4.09g Immersed Weight: 0.22g +/- 0.01g If it's 0.21g, we get 19.48 (pure gold within accuracy of the equipment). If it's 0.22g, we have 18.59 which looks like 93% gold. And finally if it's 0.23g, we have 85% gold.
This reminds me of the atheist vs. Christian debates. "You can't prove god," says the atheist. "You can't disprove him," says the Christian. No, I do not expect my test to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is fake. But the results ARE such that it should give the detractors a lot of pause before they go shooting their mouth off. First of all, in the three scenarios you presented, only ONE presents a density high enough to be pure gold. The other TWO do not. But let's get more detailed. Using 4.09g dry weight as a base, let's look at every possibility from 0.215g - 0.225g. 0.215 = 19.02 0.216 = 18.94 0.217 = 18.85 0.218 = 18.76 0.219 = 18.68 0.220 = 18.59 0.221 = 18.51 0.222 = 18.42 0.223 = 18.34 0.224 = 18.26 0.225 = 18.18 Are those "close enough" too? If we expand out on the higher end (0.226+), we get progressively lower densities. If we expand out to the lower end (0.215-), we obviously get higher densities. But wouldn't it be safe to say that the margin of error is more like +/- 0.001g than +/- .01g? And if so, how far away from the core range above should you stray when formulating variable possibilities? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1867291) And one thing I can point out is that you failed to tare the floss in there (again, mass of floss is not what you tare, you tare with the floss submerged which is going to be tricky especially if you try and tie it). If you really want suggestions on doing this without the string messing you up, I can give them.
It is tricky, yes. I purposely chose not to tare with the floss in the water, for two reasons: the floss floats and is impossible to immerse without an anchor I preferred to accept some small margin of error there than to have a larger margin of error which would result from me submerging the floss, then letting water from the floss get on my hands, thus slightly altering the original weight of the water Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1867291) Nope, then again they weren't trying to publish their results. If they were, we could start ripping apart their calculations.
Let's get real here. Please accept for just a moment that the coin is fake and Tom's is also fake. If this fake coin can produce density results which you say are close enough to be real gold, and you say Tom's results are almost identical with mine, then what is to say that Tom's coin is real, and his test was accurate? I have no doubt his coin is real, so don't miss my point and go off on a tangent. What I am saying is that you are working from the backward assumption that his test is "OK" because the data leans toward the desired result, thus, his method is not open to scrutiny. Then on the other hand, you say that my results are close enough to his... so why is my method suddenly so subject to scrutiny? Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1867291) If your measurement results are correct the coin has to be fake? I don't follow. You're measurements are below Tom's in thickness (which seems to be from you clamping extra hard), yet you claim the coin is 10% copper. 10% copper would mean the coin would have to have a light strike and be thicker than Tom's measurements so I don't see how the argument fails.
People are saying that if my measurements are correct, then the coin has to be real, because copper/gold wouldn't fit. Yet rim measurement can be misleading, can't it? And I only measured the diameter and the thickness at the rim. Their argument rests on the assumption that: The rim is actually supposed to be 2mm thick (published thickness; yet the Mint also said 1.9mm in an email to another poster) my measurement is absolutely correct #1 is in dispute, and on #2, people can't seem to make up their minds. Some say I measured the coin incorrectly, then they turn around and say that this coin can't be gold/copper because of its dimensions. I either measured incorrectly or I did not. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1867291) I assume the coin is real unless I see results which prove otherwise. You have posted nothing inconsistent with pure gold besides hearsay. All your density tests are consistent with pure gold (within the margin of error), all you measurements are also consistent with Tom's within error.
There are a lot of qualifying statements in there. And you're writing a lot off to "within error." To date I have posted: scans photos videos exhaustive explanations and clarifications I have bent over ass backwards to keep providing evidence. Could I have done more? Yeah, I'm sure. But honestly, what is the point of me exerting ANY more effort than I already have, to prove something that ultimately DOESN'T matter? Even if this coin WAS real, someone is out there right now counterfeiting Philharmonics, or if they aren't, they will sure as hell be when the SHTF. That's the way I look at it - all this time I have spent, I have done it out of interest and for the educational value. I gain NOTHING by proving the coin is fake, so I am not going to go to massive expense or time to do it (like buying a $500 high capacity .001g scale, if one even exists) I don't expect everyone to believe me 100%, but honestly, the flippant tone of many of these "the coin is real!" posts is absolutely uncalled for in light of everything I've presented. Doubt if you want, but this is by no means a closed case. Here's the bottom line: You say that nothing I have posted proves the coin is fake. Yet you would be crazy to say that I have posted anything which proves it is real. Yes, you could twist and manipulate, ignore certain things, etc. and argue this either way. But the fact remains that I HAVE presented evidence which demands to be examined fairly, and not laughed off. The people who are laughing are either too stupid to comprehend half of what we're talking about, or just don't have the balls to admit that counterfeits like this can exist.

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Gold & Silver Forum - Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?

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Gold & Silver Forum (http://goldismoney.info/forums/index.php)
- Gold - Silver - Coins - Numismatics (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=51)
- - Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=392148)

TheSkeptic | 08-13-2009 09:04 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by rodzm (Post 1866968) TheSkeptic...great fan post, absolutely love it. I for one look forward to this thread's daily posts. Quite entertaining but at the same time Ive learned a few things. I think a lot of us want to get to the bottom of this. No need to close or shut down the thread. My philosophy is...you dont like it??? DO NOT READ IT...or POST ON IT
Yeah... the people who either "don't really care" or have said they were putting me on ignore are the main ones still posting. :111: Now, please tell Mamboni that if I WAS going to Photoshop that picture, I would've made the cigar a much nicer one! All this fighting... time veg out and play Xbox all night.

mamboni | 08-13-2009 09:06 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Masters Dissertation Social and Psychological Effects on Members of a Gold Investment Forum caused by Artificially Introduced Doubt concerning a Highly Reputable Gold Bullion Coin by Shlomo Dreckessen Abstract: Under the fictitious name TheSkeptic I posted a forum thread claiming to have possession of a near perfect counterfeit of a gold bullion coin heretofore not known ever to be counterfeited. I introduced select findings and observations and engaged members of the forum in endless circular and inconclusive discussions about the coin built around all avenues of investigation. My goal was to prolong the thread to achieve the highest post count on said venerable forum, and elicit a wide range of emotional, intellectual and cognitive reacts from the members as a way of investigating their mysterious gold fetish and the impact on the group think of the artificial reality of a counterfeit gold coin that was indistinguishable from the genuine coin except as asserted by me. Success of the project was assessed by number and amplitude of member reactions, as well and number of typed words and estimated minutes wasted by forum members, as well as a weighted estimate of how long the median forum member was bamboozled by my fictitious counterfeit coin construct. Tables and figures will be utilized in analysis and summation of findings.

mamboni | 08-13-2009 09:10 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1867448) Now, please tell Mamboni that if I WAS going to Photoshop that picture, I would've made the cigar a much nicer one!
Hey Bonehead, that's a COHIBA! Are you an expert in cigars too, as well as fictitious counterfeit gold bullion coins?:111:

hernancortes | 08-13-2009 09:18 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Skep, So if you recall, was that was 18K or 22K acid you used to test the Double Eagle? thanks

TheSkeptic | 08-13-2009 09:41 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1867455) Masters Dissertation Social and Psychological Effects on Members of a Gold Investment Forum caused by Artificially Introduced Doubt concerning a Highly Reputable Gold Bullion Coin by Shlomo Dreckessen Abstract: Under the fictitious name TheSkeptic I posted a forum thread claiming to have possession of a near perfect counterfeit of a gold bullion coin heretofore not known ever to be counterfeited. I introduced select findings and observations and engaged members of the forum in endless circular and inconclusive discussions about the coin built around all avenues of investigation. My goal was to prolong the thread to achieve the highest post count on said venerable forum, and elicit a wide range of emotional, intellectual and cognitive reacts from the members as a way of investigating their mysterious gold fetish and the impact on the group think of the artificial reality of a counterfeit gold coin that was indistinguishable from the genuine coin except as asserted by me. Success of the project was assessed by number and amplitude of member reactions, as well and number of typed words and estimated minutes wasted by forum members, as well as a weighted estimate of how long the median forum member was bamboozled by my fictitious counterfeit coin construct. Tables and figures will be utilized in analysis and summation of findings.
I owe you BIG TIME. My CIA bosses were demanding a report, and I've been too lazy to type it up. Do you mind if I just send this one in? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1867460) Hey Bonehead, that's a COHIBA! Are you an expert in cigars too, as well as fictitious counterfeit gold bullion coins?:111:
My specialty is fake Cubans. I typically smoke them while wearing ludicrious amounts of costume jewelry. Quote:
Originally Posted by hernancortes (Post 1867471) Skep, So if you recall, was that was 18K or 22K acid you used to test the Double Eagle? thanks
This was dated very early... 1916 I think? It's been a while so I can't remember. Those Double Eagles were only .900, so may have expected some very slight discoloration. I just remember that it was a Liberty, it was gold, and it was 1 full ounce. If it was one that was supposed to be .9167, I would expect zero reaction to 22K acid. If it was a .900, I'd expect minimal discoloration.

Bob | 08-13-2009 09:42 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1867403) But what baffles me is this insistence on going back to the acid test. Why does it even matter? Either the coin fire assayed at 90%, or it didn't. I don't know what the margin of error was - but to say it is 10% on a fire assay is a little extreme. Here's the thing - you did not personally witness the acid test, or the assay. Thus, since an assay (especially fire) is a MUCH MORE PRECISE measure than an acid test, your focus should be on that. Even if I did somehow screw up the acid test, does this change the assay results? If so, how?
I don't know the margin of error of the test, but the person who did the test ought to be able to tell you what it was. Go read the fake silver thread. Quote:
The possibility has been raised that I could be lying about the assay results, or, that I was lied to about them in some effort to get me for $100 or so (from a company which deals in millions of dollars of gold a week. And furthermore, I told the owner upfront that I thought the coin was 18K, if he was going to lie, I would've believed a 75% pure figure and he knew it. But I digress.).
If the gold is pure 24ct, it comes down to you lying or you being incompetent and I'm not going to guess which it is. Quote:
Yet regardless, the acid test is completely irrelevant to the discussion in the presence of a test which is much more precise and telling. It seems you trust that I got the results I did from the acid test, yet I misread those results. Yet then you turn around and imply that I am blatantly lying (or was lied to) about the fire assay. That just doesn't make sense.
I think talking about any assay test is completely useless without a piece of paper that specifically spells out the percentages of materials and a margin of error. With that in mind, I ignore the assay test because I don't know what it means without those pieces of information. The assay test doesn't exist to me till I see something concrete. Therefore it contradicts nothing because it doesn't exist. That's my feeling on the matter. Quote:
My interest level in the coin when this first started was very high. Since that time: we have signed another lease for the third location, and negotiated with another mall for our planned fourth location we have gone through many of the innumerable tasks involved in setting up another location - not to mention that this one is a storefront that will also be selling jewelry. Licensing, signage, painting, furniture, moving a 1500lb safe 35 miles, ordering equipment, etc... I have gone on two short vacations we have hired and trained more employees I have been constantly attacked and accused of all sorts of things, because I call into question the authenticity of this coin So yeah, my interest level has declined tremendously. It's human nature. It is not my full time job to update GIM on this coin. I have absolutely no obligation whatsoever to anyone here. You act as if I'm being paid to do this.
I don't expect you to post at our whim, but you were tossing out evidence by the minute in the beginning and now you seem to be dragging it out. One could conclude you are stalling. Quote:
This is exactly what I am talking about. You have brought this up several times, yet I have explained it OVER and OVER. You just don't listen. :111: Are you serious? Did you see any posts from me on this forum during those 3 days? I may have made a couple, if that. I barely even looked at it. I was busy as hell for several days in a row, then I went out of town for the day on Sunday to rest. So now you are using the fact that I have obligations and a life outside of this forum to somehow discredit my claim?
Comment above still applies Quote:
The mint contradicted itself on the thickness measurement (they privately told one poster 1.9mm, but all other sources says 2mm). No big deal though right? After all, another poster commented that the thickness at rim is "variable and unimportant." Yet there have been discussions (probably more so in the other threads) that have really muddied the water about what the true dimensions should be, when you factor in relief/ridges/field area/etc. No one has reached any real conclusion on this, yet everyone who writes this coin off as real base that assumption largely on the premise that it is "too close to spec to be fake." Really now... his results weren't closer to pure gold? And I still don't understand how his implement displaced less water than mine did.
I'm not sure if it's clear or not, but I refer to Tom's post on the measurements not the density test. Tom measured the thickness of the face at about 0.1 mm thicker than you did. I am making no reference to his density test. His coin was a bit thicker, yours was a bit thinner. Presumably you clamped a bit harder, meaning your coin was probably the exact same thickness as his. Quote:
And here I am, AGAIN, explaining that I did not GET a certificate. Any time we have unknowns (for instance, some weird gold shards we bought), we give it to them, they test it, and we get paid next time we go in. There is no big formal paperwork. I know that sounds crazy, but if you go back and read the post where I described my relationship with these people and why I trust them, you would understand why. I did ask about a certificate but I doubt one was ever issued. I understand the need for one, and DO plan to have the remaining part assayed either by one of the places recommended, or by a member who contacted me privately offering to do a non-destructive assay. I think another member post his spectrograph results would carry more weight than posting an assay certificate from a third party, since you will simply say "it isn't the same coin."
Again, without a certificate, this test doesn't exist to me. I don't want to worry about you lying, screwing up, someone else screwing up. No scanned paper that someone can call up and verify means the test is inadmissible. Quote:
Ah, the heart of the matter. Here's where you are wrong: I am not making an extraordinary claim. Wow - I claim that a gold coin has been counterfeited? Stop the presses! Big fvcking deal. Do you not believe coins are counterfeited? Seriously? Are you that naive? Let's just pretend that this one was in fact real. Do you honestly think no one would ever counterfeit it? Give me a BREAK. My claim is about extraordinary and revelatory as saying that Barack Obama is a bad president.
You claim to have a coin that is the same thickness as Tom's real coin and yet is 90% gold, 10% copper (as I recall the diameter is the same and I'm assuming the rim is pretty damn close). That makes it an extraordinary claim in my book. We can agree to disagree here. Quote:
OK... so if I spend $900 and buy the whole one I've seen that has had a torch taken to it, could a proper SG test be performed on it? I mean, would the fact that someone has partially melted the face mean anything? It's supposed to be .999, so losing some to the heat wouldn't make a difference in density, but I thought I'd ask.
Melting the face shouldn't matter as long as there is no bubbling in place or anything to trap air. Or cut sell your cut piece to someone here. Sounds like someone would buy it and test it and then you'd have an independent test. Quote:
... but. Well, I admit I seem to have made a mistake. I did not believe that I could get the full half plus the weight of the container and water onto the scale without overloading it, but perhaps I was wrong. I simply cut it apart and I should not have done that. This reminds me of the atheist vs. Christian debates. "You can't prove god," says the atheist. "You can't disprove him," says the Christian. No, I do not expect my test to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is fake. But the results ARE such that it should give the detractors a lot of pause before they go shooting their mouth off. First of all, in the three scenarios you presented, only ONE presents a density high enough to be pure gold. The other TWO do not.
Let me explain something, and this is as a very scientifically minded person. There is no 2 go this way, 1 goes this way so lets pic the two. The results are too vague to be meaningful if you accept the 0.01 margin of error. You have given results that are consistent with pure gold, nothing more. I am taking the approach that this is gold till proven otherwise. This does not prove otherwise. Quote:
But let's get more detailed. Using 4.09g dry weight as a base, let's look at every possibility from 0.215g - 0.225g. 0.215 = 19.02 0.216 = 18.94 0.217 = 18.85 0.218 = 18.76 0.219 = 18.68 0.220 = 18.59 0.221 = 18.51 0.222 = 18.42 0.223 = 18.34 0.224 = 18.26 0.225 = 18.18 Are those "close enough" too?
If we absolutely believed that there was no error involved here, this would give us a reasonable range based on the quoted accuracy of the scale. There is error though. I'm sorry, I have a scientific mind. This is playing with numbers, it's not data. You can't do this. If you want to do this, I'll point out you forgot the string and now you need to figure out how much the string matters. Quote:
If we expand out on the higher end (0.226+), we get progressively lower densities. If we expand out to the lower end (0.215-), we obviously get higher densities. But wouldn't it be safe to say that the margin of error is more like +/- 0.001g than +/- .01g? And if so, how far away from the core range above should you stray when formulating variable possibilities
0.01g is too high and 0.001g is too low. If everything were perfect we know it'd be +/- 0.005. Since this is imperfect, we can guess how much above 0.005 to go. Quote:
It is tricky, yes. I purposely chose not to tare with the floss in the water, for two reasons: the floss floats and is impossible to immerse without an anchor I preferred to accept some small margin of error there than to have a larger margin of error which would result from me submerging the floss, then letting water from the floss get on my hands, thus slightly altering the original weight of the water
Yes, that's what makes it tricky. Quote:
Let's get real here. Please accept for just a moment that the coin is fake and Tom's is also fake. If this fake coin can produce density results which you say are close enough to be real gold, and you say Tom's results are almost identical with mine, then what is to say that Tom's coin is real, and his test was accurate?
Innocent until proven guilty. I'm going with real until proven beyond a shadow of a doubt otherwise. If you want to assume a random coin is fake, then we have to go back to square one. Trust nothing. 19.3 as the density of gold? Not till we test it. How do we know it's pure gold? Refine it ourselves. You get the idea. Don't go there. Quote:
I have no doubt his coin is real, so don't miss my point and go off on a tangent. What I am saying is that you are working from the backward assumption that his test is "OK" because the data leans toward the desired result, thus, his method is not open to scrutiny. Then on the other hand, you say that my results are close enough to his... so why is my method suddenly so subject to scrutiny?
You are trying to prove fake so I need the cold hard proof. Innocent until proven otherwise. Quote:
People are saying that if my measurements are correct, then the coin has to be real, because copper/gold wouldn't fit. Yet rim measurement can be misleading, can't it? And I only measured the diameter and the thickness at the rim.
You avoided the rim and measured the face. I pointed this out earlier and I also had Tom measure his at the face. That's what the measurement he got that I mentioned above is. Quote:
Their argument rests on the assumption that: The rim is actually supposed to be 2mm thick (published thickness; yet the Mint also said 1.9mm in an email to another poster) my measurement is absolutely correct #1 is in dispute, and on #2, people can't seem to make up their minds. Some say I measured the coin incorrectly, then they turn around and say that this coin can't be gold/copper because of its dimensions. I either measured incorrectly or I did not.
You measured incorrectly, but I had Tom perform the same incorrect measurement which came out the same as yours within a margin of error that assumes you clamped harder than he did. Quote:
There are a lot of qualifying statements in there. And you're writing a lot off to "within error." To date I have posted: scans photos videos exhaustive explanations and clarifications I have bent over ass backwards to keep providing evidence. Could I have done more? Yeah, I'm sure. But honestly, what is the point of me exerting ANY more effort than I already have, to prove something that ultimately DOESN'T matter? Even if this coin WAS real, someone is out there right now counterfeiting Philharmonics, or if they aren't, they will sure as hell be when the SHTF. That's the way I look at it - all this time I have spent, I have done it out of interest and for the educational value. I gain NOTHING by proving the coin is fake, so I am not going to go to massive expense or time to do it (like buying a $500 high capacity .001g scale, if one even exists)
You have nothing (and I've defined my criterion I think) to prove it's not real in all this. Quote:
I don't expect everyone to believe me 100%, but honestly, the flippant tone of many of these "the coin is real!" posts is absolutely uncalled for in light of everything I've presented. Doubt if you want, but this is by no means a closed case. Here's the bottom line: You say that nothing I have posted proves the coin is fake. Yet you would be crazy to say that I have posted anything which proves it is real. Yes, you could twist and manipulate, ignore certain things, etc. and argue this either way. But the fact remains that I HAVE presented evidence which demands to be examined fairly, and not laughed off. The people who are laughing are either too stupid to comprehend half of what we're talking about, or just don't have the balls to admit that counterfeits like this can exist.
Yes, a counterfeit could exist. Happy?

fasTTcar | 08-13-2009 09:55 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
But what baffles me is this insistence on going back to the acid test. Why does it even matter? Either the coin fire assayed at 90%, or it didn't. I don't know what the margin of error was - but to say it is 10% on a fire assay is a little extreme. Here's the thing - you did not personally witness the acid test, or the assay. Thus, since an assay (especially fire) is a MUCH MORE PRECISE measure than an acid test, your focus should be on that. Even if I did somehow screw up the acid test, does this change the assay results? If so, how? The possibility has been raised that I could be lying about the assay results, or, that I was lied to about them in some effort to get me for $100 or so (from a company which deals in millions of dollars of gold a week. And furthermore, I told the owner upfront that I thought the coin was 18K, if he was going to lie, I would've believed a 75% pure figure and he knew it. But I digress.).
The point of asking you for an acid test is that we can see it live on a video. An assay is better, but to prove your point conclusively here, a simple real time acid test of the suspect coin failing fits the bill without any questions as to what was assayed. My offer stands at double spot for a full coin that specs out and fails that test.

esoteric | 08-17-2009 10:12 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 13 pages to see if a coin is real or not........still going on about it.

Firenhole | 08-17-2009 10:20 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? URBAN LEGEND?????? :36_1_30:

creep276 | 08-18-2009 02:48 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1867455) Masters Dissertation Social and Psychological Effects on Members of a Gold Investment Forum caused by Artificially Introduced Doubt concerning a Highly Reputable Gold Bullion Coin by Shlomo Dreckessen Abstract: Under the fictitious name TheSkeptic I posted a forum thread claiming to have possession of a near perfect counterfeit of a gold bullion coin heretofore not known ever to be counterfeited. I introduced select findings and observations and engaged members of the forum in endless circular and inconclusive discussions about the coin built around all avenues of investigation. My goal was to prolong the thread to achieve the highest post count on said venerable forum, and elicit a wide range of emotional, intellectual and cognitive reacts from the members as a way of investigating their mysterious gold fetish and the impact on the group think of the artificial reality of a counterfeit gold coin that was indistinguishable from the genuine coin except as asserted by me. Success of the project was assessed by number and amplitude of member reactions, as well and number of typed words and estimated minutes wasted by forum members, as well as a weighted estimate of how long the median forum member was bamboozled by my fictitious counterfeit coin construct. Tables and figures will be utilized in analysis and summation of findings.
It's been my contention for quite a while that there would eventually be actual counterfeits dumped on the market with accompanying widespread media attention to assist in keeping the confidence in bullion low. "TheSkeptic" registered a month ago and hits with something this big out of nowhere. Many people in this thread have questioned the motive regarding the basic economics of producing a coin that's 90% etc.. But isnt this exactly how the gov/banksters would do it? When does the gold cartel care about spending a few bucks, or losing a few bucks to maintain the overall agenda of gold price suppression? Why doesn't "TheSkeptic" post his business name or any other info? Arent you into getting more biz, exposure...?

azxcvbnm321 | 08-18-2009 03:46 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Wow, just spent a lot of time reading up. As a newbie to this discussion, my opinion is that the video tests are inconclusive in that the results are consistent with a 100% gold coin or a coin that is 90% gold thanks to margin of error. 2) From what I understand, the measurements of the coin were also inconclusive as they are consistent with both 90% or 100% gold coin thanks to margin of error. 3) This is where I could be wrong, but according to posters, it would be extremely difficult to produce a 90% gold/10% coin with the proper diameter and dimensions +- margin of error for measurement, the only way would be to use a shallow strike. 4) It would be economically and logically foolish for any counterfeiter to make a fake coin so pure and so close to the size/measurements of the original as he would gain very little extra money yet subject himself to incredible difficulty. 5) It would be of no difficulty for the Austrian Mint to make a coin that is 100% pure gold with the dimensions measured, they do it all the time, it's called a Philharmonic. Verdict: The experiments show that the coin could be 90% gold or 100% gold. However due to points 3, 4, and 5, I conclude that the coin is much more likely to be 100% than 90% gold. It cannot be proven that the coin is 100% gold based on the experiments, but since the tests are consistent with 100% gold, and that this would be the easiest, simplest, and most common solution, logic dictates that we accept the assumption that this is 100% gold until further evidence arises against the possibility of 100% gold. Should Skeptic post a video of an acid test or a test that could conclusively show it was not 100% gold, we would be faced with an unexplained mystery. There is another explanation if it can be shown that the coin is definitely not 100% gold, that the Austrian Mint produced these coins but they are not 100% gold. Perhaps the supplier of the blanks fudged the purity or made a mistake in production. However with the evidence we have, it is still far far more likely that this coin is 100% than the above theory and so the judgment that this is a real 100% coin stands until otherwise.

CoinHunter53562 | 08-21-2009 06:03 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? It was mentioned earlier that a member of GIM was coming down to observe his operations and learn about what he does. That member is me and I was accompanied by a non-GIM member on the trip. I approached him about coming down to learn about the business, including procedures, record keeping, things to watch out for, financials, etc. He was willing to share all of that info with me. We moved the trip up one day to accomodate our schedules, so that's why I am back now. I won't go into much detail now because I am still exhausted from the trip since we crammed all of it (travel there and back, learning about the business, etc) into a short time window. Here's what I can tell you: *For the Philharmonic in question, we did acid test and compare it to an acid test done on a 1914 $2.50 Indian Head gold piece that I brought down. According to the Red Book, this is 90% gold content. Both coins showed the same results with the 22K acid test. *TheSkeptic was bashed in the 35% spot thread about underpaying for the gold. I have two observations on this. The first is that in no way was he or his employees using any strong armed tactics or hard sales tactics to complete the deal. We observed 3 customers bring stuff to sell in the short time there, and I thought it was handled quickly, professionally, accurately, and in a friendly manner. *We also visited one of his competitors in town before we left, and my impression is that the procedures done were similar, and the payouts as far as I could tell were pretty similar as well (I didn't record the specifc pennyweight prices for comparison). One observation the two of us who came down made is that the competitor had a sidearm in a holster at his side and an easily visible 12-gauge shotgun about 6 feet behind him. For the average grandma selling their unwanted jewelry, I could see where that would be intimidating. I didn't ask if TheSkeptic or his employees were armed (not really my business anyway) but there is no potential intimidation for the service he offers. *He mentioned having a good looking girl working for him. We visited two of the locations, and met three of the people working for him and his business partner. The three women that work for him that we met were all pretty attractive women, outgoing, engaging, etc. No lies or exaggerations here. So I don't get the impression that TheSkeptic is flying by the seat of his pants and that he knows what he is doing. Like any newer business, mistakes were made before this point but that's to be expected. The items pictured in the car seat are legit 10K, 14K and 18K gold jewelry pieces. Sorry if this seems a bit scatter brained or doesn't make 100% sense. I am going on a total of about 7 hours of sleep in the past 58 hours so I am quite tired. If anyone has specific questions that they would like me to answer, please post it here. Do not ask me for his name, locations, financials, or even what part of the state he is in. I will not answer that and respect his privacy. If he wants to answer any of those, I will leave it up to him.

morganchaser | 08-21-2009 08:54 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by CoinHunter53562 (Post 1879878) It was mentioned earlier that a member of GIM was coming down to observe his operations and learn about what he does. That member is me and I was accompanied by a non-GIM member on the trip. I approached him about coming down to learn about the business, including procedures, record keeping, things to watch out for, financials, etc. He was willing to share all of that info with me. We moved the trip up one day to accomodate our schedules, so that's why I am back now. I won't go into much detail now because I am still exhausted from the trip since we crammed all of it (travel there and back, learning about the business, etc) into a short time window. Here's what I can tell you: *For the Philharmonic in question, we did acid test and compare it to an acid test done on a 1914 $2.50 Indian Head gold piece that I brought down. According to the Red Book, this is 90% gold content. Both coins showed the same results with the 22K acid test. *TheSkeptic was bashed in the 35% spot thread about underpaying for the gold. I have two observations on this. The first is that in no way was he or his employees using any strong armed tactics or hard sales tactics to complete the deal. We observed 3 customers bring stuff to sell in the short time there, and I thought it was handled quickly, professionally, accurately, and in a friendly manner. *We also visited one of his competitors in town before we left, and my impression is that the procedures done were similar, and the payouts as far as I could tell were pretty similar as well (I didn't record the specifc pennyweight prices for comparison). One observation the two of us who came down made is that the competitor had a sidearm in a holster at his side and an easily visible 12-gauge shotgun about 6 feet behind him. For the average grandma selling their unwanted jewelry, I could see where that would be intimidating. I didn't ask if TheSkeptic or his employees were armed (not really my business anyway) but there is no potential intimidation for the service he offers. *He mentioned having a good looking girl working for him. We visited two of the locations, and met three of the people working for him and his business partner. The three women that work for him that we met were all pretty attractive women, outgoing, engaging, etc. No lies or exaggerations here. So I don't get the impression that TheSkeptic is flying by the seat of his pants and that he knows what he is doing. Like any newer business, mistakes were made before this point but that's to be expected. The items pictured in the car seat are legit 10K, 14K and 18K gold jewelry pieces. Sorry if this seems a bit scatter brained or doesn't make 100% sense. I am going on a total of about 7 hours of sleep in the past 58 hours so I am quite tired. If anyone has specific questions that they would like me to answer, please post it here. Do not ask me for his name, locations, financials, or even what part of the state he is in. I will not answer that and respect his privacy. If he wants to answer any of those, I will leave it up to him.
Even for a forum of paranoids: the idea that we would have collusion between a new troll and a long standing member is really pushing it. It would virtually rely on the long standing member having a weird sense of humor and using multiple accounts. It's not unheard of. I've been invited to participate in a fake news hobby club. Some people really do think it's worth their time to manufacture and premeditate fake news for shits and giggles. Once again, the evidence points to TheSkeptic being legit. :23_30_104: Isn't it great how I am switching sides on the issue every 5 minutes? :sarc:

TheSkeptic | 08-21-2009 09:05 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? CoinHunter, Thanks for the post. I didn't know the guy at the shop you walked to carried either... maybe I will be careful about going in there to price them! But if it's the person I'm thinking of, I've talked to him a couple of times, and he's the one who bought the fake Maple Leaf I posted about before. And could you really see the first girl you met handling a shotgun? :111: Now all I have to do is see if I can get a certain forum member to a non-destructive assay of the coin and post the results, and then mamboni will truly be my bitch! :111:

TheSkeptic | 08-21-2009 09:13 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1880092) Once again, the evidence points to TheSkeptic being legit. :23_30_104:
What was hilarious is that I am told the coin is 90% gold 10% copper, and it had the same reaction that a coin Red Book says is 90% gold/10% copper did. Maybe those ole boys at the mysterious "People We Sell To" weren't lying after all. :565: Even though I only had the half coin, I did another measurement with the calipers while CoinHunter and his friend were there, and got reading right around 2mm when I did not press in hard. But I don't plan on keeping it much longer... I had someone PM me about doing a spectrograph on it, and I wrote back accepting their offer. Haven't heard back though. Hopefully I will, and he will provide some final confirmation.

CoinHunter53562 | 08-22-2009 08:25 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by morganchaser (Post 1880092) Even for a forum of paranoids: the idea that we would have collusion between a new troll and a long standing member is really pushing it. It would virtually rely on the long standing member having a weird sense of humor and using multiple accounts. It's not unheard of. I've been invited to participate in a fake news hobby club. Some people really do think it's worth their time to manufacture and premeditate fake news for shits and giggles. Once again, the evidence points to TheSkeptic being legit. :23_30_104: Isn't it great how I am switching sides on the issue every 5 minutes? :sarc:
Nothing fake going on here. :beer: Everything I've said on here even before this thread has been true. I don't care to lie about things...it's just not my style. I've quit jobs in the past because I felt like I was being told to lie or stretch the truth more than I could ethically stand. I would have posted this reply last night, but I passed out hard from the trip and slept from 7pm to 6am this morning getting caught up on sleep. :4_8_4v: With that said, I first PM'd TheSkeptic about 3-4 weeks ago with the idea of coming down there to see his operations because I wanted to learn about the business. I already do some dealings in coins and bullion on a small scale, but thought this was a natural and necessary extension to grow the business. To his credit, he was open to the idea right away, but even moreso, he put up with our on again off again decision to come down or not. It wasn't until Tuesday this week that we finally confirmed that we were coming down, and it wasn't until this week that I even knew his first name (my fault for not asking earlier). I had approached another place in Indiana that does this as well (through a member of a different forum that worked at the place) but was told that the owner didn't have the time or patience to do it. I was also offered the chance to learn from a dealer locally, but his business is booming and he is short staffed, so I didn't feel comfortable taking him up on his offer (mostly from the standpoint that I wasnt sure if his training would be effective and comprehensive). We also tossed around the idea of contacting shops in the Milwaukee and Rockford areas, but we have no relationships with them and also wondered how complete the training would be from those guys. So we took a bit of a chance, and made alot longer trip than we originally hoped for, but we were very happy with everything. We decided to go with TheSkeptic because of his willingness to show us everything, including the financials. You can get a feel for a person from his posts and from his private messages, so I felt comfortable taking the chance to go down there. I saw that TheSkeptic mentioned the Phil in question being measured with the digital calipers. That is correct. The bigger piece that was left measured at 2.02mm on the caliper readout FWIW.

CoinHunter53562 | 08-22-2009 08:30 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1880106) CoinHunter, Thanks for the post. I didn't know the guy at the shop you walked to carried either... maybe I will be careful about going in there to price them! But if it's the person I'm thinking of, I've talked to him a couple of times, and he's the one who bought the fake Maple Leaf I posted about before. And could you really see the first girl you met handling a shotgun? :111: Now all I have to do is see if I can get a certain forum member to a non-destructive assay of the coin and post the results, and then mamboni will truly be my bitch! :111:
Ha...the first girl we met is what, maybe 95 pounds at the most? The shotgun would be bigger than her! :bear_w00t: The guy at the shop we walked over to was a taller guy, maybe 6'2 - 6'4" with glasses. He was actually pretty friendly, but man that piece on his hip was intimidating. I guess we just dont see that up here in Wisconsin. I know some of the dealers have firearms in their shops, but none I have been to have them in a visible way.

TheSkeptic | 08-22-2009 06:19 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I wanted to mention to those who may be still interested in this thread, something I pointed out to CoinHunter when he was here. When you rub a gold piece over the testing surface, you will get a very nice, easy motion and it leaves a good sample. When you try to rub this coin, there is a lot of flaking (which from what I was taught, is not good), and it is very difficult to get a usable sample. CoinHunter's Indian Head rubbed very smoothly and left a good sample as expected. The Philharmonic was a real bitch to get a clean sample on, though I finally did by moving around different spots inside the coin. At any rate, both coins acid tested the same. CoinHunter also got to see the "burned" Philharmonic I mentioned, which someone had apparently taken a torch to. Then, they cut into it and bent it back. Not sure if he looked through a loupe at that sample or not.

CoinHunter53562 | 08-23-2009 10:21 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1881198) I wanted to mention to those who may be still interested in this thread, something I pointed out to CoinHunter when he was here. When you rub a gold piece over the testing surface, you will get a very nice, easy motion and it leaves a good sample. When you try to rub this coin, there is a lot of flaking (which from what I was taught, is not good), and it is very difficult to get a usable sample. CoinHunter's Indian Head rubbed very smoothly and left a good sample as expected. The Philharmonic was a real bitch to get a clean sample on, though I finally did by moving around different spots inside the coin. At any rate, both coins acid tested the same. CoinHunter also got to see the "burned" Philharmonic I mentioned, which someone had apparently taken a torch to. Then, they cut into it and bent it back. Not sure if he looked through a loupe at that sample or not.
I did look at that burned Phil, but not under a loupe. One thing I remember about it is that it seemed to have a few pourous areas like you see on corroded copper cents. Those areas I think had a whitish-greenish color to them, but I can't say for sure what the actual color was. After the overnight drive, my eyes were a bit tired. The other info posted by TheSkeptic in the post I quoted is accurate and is what we observed.

hernancortes | 08-28-2009 01:17 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Coin, Did you perchance have a real Phil on hand to compare the fake to? I mean, to conduct a basic visual/tactile inspection.

CoinHunter53562 | 08-28-2009 01:36 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by hernancortes (Post 1891275) Coin, Did you perchance have a real Phil on hand to compare the fake to? I mean, to conduct a basic visual/tactile inspection.
I brought mine along but didn't do any testing to it. It's in a slab, so I was about to break out an almost $975 coin and test it to compare it to the sample we looked at. After seeing the acid results on the Phil that we tested, I do have to admit I am curious about mine. I haven't seen or handled enough of these to be able to tell visually what's kosher and what isn't, so at the moment I will have to trust that the one I got from another GIMer through a trade is a good example.

hernancortes | 08-28-2009 01:46 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? A Phil in a slab? Of all the coins to be slabbed? Anyway, if you and Skeptic are convinced it's 90%, get a naked Phil to compare it with. If it still looked legit (which I can't imagine), I would be in frequent contact w/ the mint. Of all parties I would think they'd be most interested in this story.

CoinHunter53562 | 08-29-2009 12:37 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by hernancortes (Post 1891313) A Phil in a slab? Of all the coins to be slabbed? Anyway, if you and Skeptic are convinced it's 90%, get a naked Phil to compare it with. If it still looked legit (which I can't imagine), I would be in frequent contact w/ the mint. Of all parties I would think they'd be most interested in this story.
Lol no not professionally slabbed, but in one of those that you can get from places like Amos Advantage. I put it in there to protect it. It was my first full one ounce gold coin, so I protect it like it's my firstborn. :biggrin:

hernancortes | 08-29-2009 07:25 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Hey, I was at a show once looking for bullion and a dealer had a Krugerrand in a PCGS slab, a lofty MS69 at that. Woohoo! He wanted extra 'cause of the slab of course. LOL If anyone cared I would actually send in one of my Krands. This one would definitely grade Proof-Like, or might even be a proof, those are rare but still no one gives a damn anyway. Might make it worth an extra ten whole bucks.

CoinHunter53562 | 08-29-2009 09:26 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by hernancortes (Post 1892676) Hey, I was at a show once looking for bullion and a dealer had a Krugerrand in a PCGS slab, a lofty MS69 at that. Woohoo! He wanted extra 'cause of the slab of course. LOL If anyone cared I would actually send in one of my Krands. This one would definitely grade Proof-Like, or might even be a proof, those are rare but still no one gives a damn anyway. Might make it worth an extra ten whole bucks.
Lol...I've never understood the need to get bullion type coins slabbed by NGC or PCGS, but to each his own I guess. Same thing with the first strike coins...those just don't appeal to me anymore than a regular bullion coin.

TheSkeptic | 08-29-2009 09:55 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Where is my pal Mamboni? Bob? Atahalupaha (or however you spell it)?

SLV>GLD | 08-29-2009 10:46 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? It is not wise to call out members by name on this forum. Just friendly advice...

GardensGold&Guns | 08-30-2009 12:20 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? THIS THREAD IS STILL ALIVE?

TomD | 08-30-2009 12:55 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Skeptic, where are you? Do I remember mention of Mobile, AL? If so, I'll bring all my stuff including a certified real Philharmoniker, scales, water apparatus, and camera gear to do a serious check out (with your permission of course). PM sent--

TheSkeptic | 08-30-2009 03:47 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 1892816) It is not wise to call out members by name on this forum. Just friendly advice...
Just commenting on how silent the more vocal know-it-all blowhards have been over the last few days. I guess they had their fun mocking an otherwise serious topic, time for them to move on to other threads I suppose... Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1894231) Skeptic, where are you? Do I remember mention of Mobile, AL? If so, I'll bring all my stuff including a certified real Philharmoniker, scales, water apparatus, and camera gear to do a serious check out (with your permission of course). PM sent--
Sorry, we are pretty far apart... years ago we would often go to Pensacola every year to see my grandparents, if it's any consolation. :biggrin: Any way, I think it's time I sold what we have and forget about it. I am selling it by weight as 90% gold. The fragment weighs approximately 0.467ozt Current spot $955.60 x 0.900 x .467 = $401.64 Tack on a few dollars for insured shipping and we're at $410. If anyone wants to purchase it, PM me and we can work out the details. Money order or cashier's check preferred, but PayPal is available if necessary. Round approx. 14.5g,

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- - Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=392148)

Mr.Goodbar | 08-30-2009 04:12 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Where are you at roughly? I'd like to know if it's worth the trip to go check it out. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1894478) Just commenting on how silent the more vocal know-it-all blowhards have been over the last few days. I guess they had their fun mocking an otherwise serious topic, time for them to move on to other threads I suppose... Sorry, we are pretty far apart... years ago we would often go to Pensacola every year to see my grandparents, if it's any consolation. :biggrin: Any way, I think it's time I sold what we have and forget about it. I am selling it by weight as 90% gold. The fragment weighs approximately 0.467ozt Current spot $955.60 x 0.900 x .467 = $401.64 Tack on a few dollars for insured shipping and we're at $410. If anyone wants to purchase it, PM me and we can work out the details. Money order or cashier's check preferred, but PayPal is available if necessary. Round approx. 14.5g,

TheSkeptic | 08-30-2009 10:18 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? PM sent...

hernancortes | 10-07-2009 04:01 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Skeptic, what do you think of this story? http://www.vancouversun.com/news/arr...789/story.html#

HistoryStudent | 10-07-2009 04:55 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Not this old damn thing again, right? It's like watching a soap opera - "DAYS of LIVES at GIM!" :4_1_72::4_1_72::111::111:

mamboni | 10-07-2009 04:59 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 1960073) Not this old damn thing again, right? It's like watching a soap opera - "DAYS of LIVES at GIM!" :4_1_72::4_1_72::111::111:
Yeah, this thread is like getting Herpes, in so many ways.:confused_ma:

TheSkeptic | 10-08-2009 12:12 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by hernancortes (Post 1959952) Skeptic, what do you think of this story? http://www.vancouversun.com/news/arr...789/story.html#
Sounds like a pretty basic scam. If someone offered me a lot of coins like that, I would probably spot check. No one was really interested in buying the fragment of this Philharmonic I had left (it's been melted now), but I found out today that I can probably get more which I suspect are from the same batch. I may buy one from this pawn shop, and put it up for sale/further study.

bottom feeder | 10-09-2009 10:46 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? And in the final stretch, its TheSkeptic, followed closely by mamboni, with HistoryStudent coming up on the inside... :565: bf

TheSkeptic | 10-09-2009 11:56 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? LOL - Mamboni is not the horse, he's only the horse's ass. :111:

WillieTheKid | 10-09-2009 04:02 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Gad, I read this entire thread........well, eventually I started scanning......and it was like a great novel, but when I finally got to the conclusion it seemed lacking. Skeptic, you've been really annoyed with people who haven't read the entire thread, and you will undoubtedly include me as one of those annoyers, but hopefully you can see beyond that and answer a few questions for me if I admit my ignorance that I might have missed some important details of the thread. But my monitor has tiny fonts, I'm getting older and my eyes were bugging out.....my dog ate my homework, etc. So with all that said, here are my questions: The tale started with you buying two coins, presumably stolen AND counterfeit. At the time of the purchase, you knew they were not up to snuff, so you paid a fair price and received the coins. The police got one from you for evidence, the other you mutilated in various ways to try to assess exactly what it was. Ultimately you ended up with about a half a coin which you had melted. (1) What happened to the other half of that coin? (2) Why did the police allow you to keep the "test" coin to the point where you melted it? (While requiring you to turn the other coin in as evidence.) (3) At one point you said that with a loop you could see that there was some sort of foreign metal in the center of the coin that was not gold and you were going to have it checked to see exactly what that was. Did you ever find out what that was? If the gold tested at 90% AND there was something in the middle, too, how could you get 90% melt value for it? (4) What exactly are the laws regarding the buying of stolen property? (You must have to know this to be in your biz.) Will the police return the coin you gave into evidence? Will they return it to the original owner from whom it was stolen? Will they sell it at the local police auction? (5) In some of your latter posts you mention that you know of some other of these coins that you could acquire for a reasonable amount, and that you might just do that. You also mention buying one that was burnt. Isn't knowingly buying merchandise that you know was stolen a very serious offense? (6) Did you ever ultimately figure out exactly what the coin was? (What it was made of, what the center was, etc.?) This is not a flame, and I'm not trying to criticize your story here, but I kind of want to know exactly how it ends. Can you fill in blanks for me here? ...........Willie

TheSkeptic | 10-09-2009 06:07 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Well, the composition of the coin was mentioned a number of times throughout the thread. I also discussed what happened to the other half, three posts above yours. So I don't want to repeat that information. As for the legal questions, it's probably best I decline to talk more about that issue. I'll just say that I'm working on getting at least 1 or maybe more of the coins which I presume to be from the same batch (though I'm sure the case is now closed, and the man's insurance has reimbursed him for any unrecovered coins). If I do, I'll sell it here on GIM and it can be analyzed further.

RossL | 10-09-2009 08:38 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by WillieTheKid (Post 1964193) Can you fill in blanks for me here? ...........Willie
answer? NO nothing but bullshiite. move on folks, nothing to see here....

Gcubed | 10-09-2009 09:08 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1964412) Well, the composition of the coin was mentioned a number of times throughout the thread. I also discussed what happened to the other half, three posts above yours. So I don't want to repeat that information. As for the legal questions, it's probably best I decline to talk more about that issue. I'll just say that I'm working on getting at least 1 or maybe more of the coins which I presume to be from the same batch (though I'm sure the case is now closed, and the man's insurance has reimbursed him for any unrecovered coins). If I do, I'll sell it here on GIM and it can be analyzed further.
Wouldn't those 1 or maybe more of the coins still be stolen property rightfully belonging to the insurance company? :confused_ma:

TheSkeptic | 10-09-2009 09:16 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Legally speaking, I doubt that. Regardless, I do not know WHO sold them or where they got them. It may not be from the same collection. If it is counterfeit like the others, I'd assume it is - but again I couldn't confirm that 100%. RossL, Maybe you'll put your money where your mouth is and buy one if I can get it. I'll use escrow.com. Interested in a nice 24K coin at no premium?

RossL | 10-09-2009 09:24 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1964697) Interested in a nice 24K coin at no premium?
Skeptic, NO I am not interested in a nice 24K coin at no premium. how does that old saying go... you don't get something for nothing. I hope you learn something from this post. Mebbe in 20 years you will look back and see something.

TheSkeptic | 10-10-2009 08:54 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by RossL (Post 1964717) Skeptic, NO I am not interested in a nice 24K coin at no premium. how does that old saying go... you don't get something for nothing. I hope you learn something from this post. Mebbe in 20 years you will look back and see something.
If you have doubts about the coin's purity, and just don't want to admit it, I understand. :biggrin: Anyway, in 20 years I just hope to have learned what is so special about these (or any) coins that they can't be well counterfeited.

Jefferson | 10-12-2009 03:31 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I can not seem to get an image to post. Can someone do this for me. http://files.nireblog.com/blogs/atey...ken-trolls.jpg and please let me know how it was done. The problem is not the troll. The problem is the people who feed the troll.

diversified2 | 10-12-2009 03:47 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefferson (Post 1968088) I can not seem to get an image to post. Can someone do this for me. http://files.nireblog.com/blogs/atey...ken-trolls.jpg and please let me know how it was done. The problem is not the troll. The problem is the people who feed the troll.
Here you go....

Tercestisi | 10-13-2009 02:35 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by diversified2 (Post 1968092) Here you go....
Aw, and I was just going to give a lengthy tirade about how 2 hours later I still have 6 GIM tabs open in Firefox that I was planning to read during my 20 minute break. It was a great story; nearly Novel quality. Unfortunately it dragged on quite a bit from page 3 to 13 and with the anti-climatic ending that was CH on page 14... well, it was a great waste of time sprinkled with grains of knowledge. Really thought the CH post was a turning point. I'm still trying to figure out who was the protagonist and who was the antagonist here? It seemed Skeptic was very concerned with the forgery aspect of the coin, but seemed very pessimistic about getting the full assay done for his own knowledge. I would figure most any GIM member here, if in the same situation, would pay the fee for their own curiosity... and I'm not throwing out a "No True Scotsman" attack either. In the end, our hero simply didn't care anymore and melted his only evidence of a Phake Phil? Me thinks the author needs to proof-read a bit. :111: I'm getting my hand too close to the "Food for the Troll" dispenser though...

TheSkeptic | 10-13-2009 08:49 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I offered part of one of the coins for sale before we had it melted. No one wanted it. I can't help that. And I bet that if I'm able to get another one, no one will want to buy that one either.

Mr. Shiny | 10-14-2009 11:00 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1971197) And I bet that if I'm able to get another one, no one will want to buy that one either.
PM me your business address, if I'm close enough and you can get them, I'll buy 20 of them @ $400usd per piece. You are paying $300 each, correct? That'll be a nice 33% profit for you.

TheSkeptic | 10-14-2009 11:19 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Apparently you haven't read too much of the thread, and/or are not too great with deductive reasoning.

GoldWampum | 10-14-2009 11:28 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Seems to be a lot of jealousy in this thread Skeptic. You must be doing something right. :RockOn:

TheSkeptic | 10-14-2009 11:50 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? What baffles me (and I mean, really, really, really baffles me) is what makes these Philharmonics so special that they can't be counterfeited. Give me a friggin' break. Some people need a reality check. It's a gold coin. And a rather gay one at that.

hernancortes | 10-14-2009 12:58 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Can they be counterfeited convincingly and economically? Still nothing in this thread makes me think so..

Mr. Shiny | 10-14-2009 01:27 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1972106) Apparently you haven't read too much of the thread, and/or are not too great with deductive reasoning.
Skeptic, You would be mistaken, I had read the entire thread, including the parts where I actually lost a bit of life for reading them. The point is I am willing to purchase these coins, at a 33.3 percent mark-up on your end. But only cash and carry, so distance traveled plays into this. You'll profit, I'll profit, everyone will be happy. What is the problem?

Mr. Shiny | 10-14-2009 01:46 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1972158) .... is what makes these Philharmonics so special that they can't be counterfeited.
Absolutely nothing. I am willing to risk that they aren't is what drives my offer. You're going to make some $2k usd on the deal, I'm going to make $13.2k usd (as of post). Risk. That's the difference between a strong handed investor and you. You paid $300 for what you felt was stolen and/or fake Philharmonic'ers, got scared you were going down for receiving, had a bad experience with your testing procedure, or none of these coins (faked) exist and you are hunting for some misguided glory by cooking up this tale. Whatever the reason, I stand to make a sh!tload of dollars if you do sell to me. That is my stake in this thread.

Mr. Shiny | 10-28-2009 10:10 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1841366) As far as I know, no one makes 22K or 24K testing needles.
Yeah, they do, needles are made in 2 karat increments from 4 to 24, and the associated acids from 10 to 22 karats in 4 karat increments. With these a person can determine within a half karat any gold sample. Of course that person would need to know what they are doing and practice and/or do these sort of tests daily, sort of like someone in the 'scrap for gold' business. Though most people don't bother with the 22 and 24 needles as they just use a coin (a K-Rand or gold eagle for the 22, and a Philharmonic'er, Maple, etc. for 24. I must be a glutton for punishment or I really enjoy knocking sense into youngsters.

mamboni | 10-28-2009 10:20 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny (Post 1994976) Yeah, they do, needles are made in 2 karat increments from 4 to 24, and the associated acids from 10 to 22 karats in 4 karat increments. With these a person can determine within a half karat any gold sample. Of course that person would need to know what they are doing and practice and/or do these sort of tests daily, sort of like someone in the 'scrap for gold' business. Though most people don't bother with the 22 and 24 needles as they just use a coin (a K-Rand or gold eagle for the 22, and a Philharmonic'er, Maple, etc. for 24. I must be a glutton for punishment or I really enjoy knocking sense into youngsters.
It's refreshing to hear from a "professional" who sounds like he knows what he's doing and talking about. :23_28_100s:

Mr. Shiny | 10-28-2009 12:14 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1994999) It's refreshing to hear from a "professional" who sounds like he knows what he's doing and talking about. :23_28_100s:
After 58 years in the refining business (full time), you do pick up a few things. And reading and re-reading, it does require re-reading because some of the points in this novel of a thread are missed due to laughter and utter disbelief. You also see the old adage: "Oh, what a tangled web we weave, When we first practice to deceive". One of the Skeptic 'lies' that someone else pointed out was Skeptic's assertation that the coin was 900 fine (Au/Cu) determined by fire assay. A fire assay will give you a fineness (Au & Ag), but the base metal is not specified. For those that don't know, fire assay: The metal button (sample) (weighed and recorded) is wrapped in lead foil, if the sample is thought to be of high Au content it is mixed with a predetermined (and recorded) amount of Ag before wrapping, this is placed in a cupel (an unglazed clay-like cup), this is placed in the assay furnace and fired, while in the furnace air is allowed in to oxidize the lead, the lead oxide is a solvent for the oxides of the base metals (that oxidize as well) that may be present in the sample, the porous cupel absorbs this mixture of oxides leaving a shiny Ag/Au button. Next the button is cleaned of adhering cupel/oxide particles, placed on an anvil, flattened, run through a rolling mill till it's quite thin and long, rolled into what is known as a coronet (a loose spiral), and then weighed and recorded again. Afterwards it is parted (the Ag dissolved), and the remaining 'sponge' of pure Au is weighed. A little arithmetic, and you have the fineness of the sample. So, lets say the sample is 0.5g of high Au content. We'll add 1.5g Ag inquarts and wrap in lead foil. That gives a total sample content of 2g. We do the above procedures and weigh the button. It weighs 1.875g so we know 0.125g is base metal. We part the button, and the weight of the 'sponge' is 0.25g. This tells us the sample is 500 fine gold.

TheSkeptic | 10-28-2009 12:16 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny (Post 1994976) Yeah, they do, needles are made in 2 karat increments from 4 to 24, and the associated acids from 10 to 22 karats in 4 karat increments. With these a person can determine within a half karat any gold sample. Of course that person would need to know what they are doing and practice and/or do these sort of tests daily, sort of like someone in the 'scrap for gold' business. Though most people don't bother with the 22 and 24 needles as they just use a coin (a K-Rand or gold eagle for the 22, and a Philharmonic'er, Maple, etc. for 24. I must be a glutton for punishment or I really enjoy knocking sense into youngsters.
No one I know even uses 10-14-18k needles. It's not necessary. I got them when we first started, not sure where they are anymore. I have never seen 22K or 24K needles for sale anywhere before. I just searched online for a few minutes and found them. There is a picture earlier in this thread with about 50oz of scrap. A lot of 18K. If I remember correctly, that is what we purchased over a period of less than 2 weeks. Some scrap gold operations (such as yours?) may do more, some do less. Anyway, much of that was processed/bought after acid testing, by myself or employees or my former business partner. We sold all the jewelry in the picture that day, with no items being fake or misidentified. Anyway, I clearly explained in this thread (many times) that I can get 98% of 90% spot for the coins, cash, 5 days a week (from the people who had the assay done and know they are 90%). If I wanted to be shady, I could claim they were real, drive an hour or two away, and sell them for cash at 95-100% spot. So your offer is just not realistic, nor does it lead me to believe you did anything more than skim over the thread. Then again, there's the fact that I clearly stated I didn't have any more of the coins at that time, and the guys who stole them are apparently in jail. So exactly what coins you wanted me to sell you, I'm not sure. You also overlook the fact that a member of this forum personally came and met me, saw our operation in detail (including some financials), and looked at the coins. He saw me measure and acid test it, and verified that the coin sample acid tested exactly like a known .900 gold coin, a pre-1933. Sorry to ruin your conspiracy theory.

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- - Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=392148)

TheSkeptic | 10-28-2009 12:18 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Time to put your money where your mouth is. If I told you I could sell you a Philharmonic right now at spot, and that I suspect it was from the same batch (and thus only .900), would you buy it? Let's say the hypothetical coin weighed 31.18g, was 1.9mm thick, and 37.02mm in diameter.

Mr. Shiny | 10-28-2009 12:24 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Skeptic, not to be a dick, but what is your testing procedure? I mean without the use of needles, you have no QC, no standard. Everyone uses needles, not everytime, but at least once per day, to quantify their procedure, check their acids.

TheSkeptic | 10-28-2009 12:32 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? No they don't. You have been refining 58 years (Christ, how old are you?!), and you are comfortable in what you do and your profession. I am not going to say that I have the same experience you do. But I can say that after acid testing hundreds and hundreds (maybe thousands? I don't even know) of pieces - rings, earrings, bracelets, coins, teeth, charms, chains, etc. - it is not exactly rocket science, and you do get very used to it. And you can most certainly tell when things are "off". I understand what you are saying as far as establishing a baseline. But someone with your experience knows what gold looks like, and can often tell just by looking at something whether it is real, and can often tell what karat it is, or at least know if it is 18K+, without even having to acid test it. I know I can by this point, so I assume you have it down even more so. Most of what we buy is stamped, and we are just looking for a confirmation with the acid test. Being in this business as long as you have, I'm kind of surprised you think that daily testing of acids is necessary. We clean the stones each day, but the acids will last for a few months before breaking down - way slower than we use them. And even when they are old and weak, that will not cause them to think something is a lower karat than it is - just the opposite. We're talking common sense here. With that said - do you disagree with my statement that 22K gold testing acid should not discolor or melt a 24K sample?

Mr. Shiny | 10-28-2009 12:35 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1995185) Time to put your money where your mouth is. If I told you I could sell you a Philharmonic right now at spot, and that I suspect it was from the same batch (and thus only .900), would you buy it? Let's say the hypothetical coin weighed 31.18g, was 1.9mm thick, and 37.02mm in diameter.
No, why would I buy at spot? I don't collect PM's, after ~60 years of looking at the yellow metal, it's just that, yellow metal, what used to be my job.

TheSkeptic | 10-28-2009 12:44 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? You'd buy at spot because you say the coin has to be real, and any real Philharmonic costs more than spot. But if you don't really believe what you're saying, and think it could be a fake, then no hard feelings. Interested in your answers to my questions.

Mr. Shiny | 10-28-2009 01:33 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Answers for Skeptic. Would I buy your hypothetical coin? Answered previously. Pertaining to your query about discoloration or 'melting'. If you meant on the coin, and not the touchstone, the color change you may have seen could be due to dirt, i.e. finger oils and such. Melting is a product of heat, what the acid does is dissolution. Please refrain from improper usage of the language, and/or mixing physics with chemistry. Now, in return, please admit that, maybe, perhaps, you kind of stretched the truth a bit about the assay and the 900 fine (9:1 Au/Cu ratio). Quote:
You'd buy at spot because you say the coin has to be real, and any real Philharmonic costs more than spot
Skeptic, do you buy at spot? We never did, ever! Not in volume, not per piece. Nor did we sell at spot. We, as you are, were a business. So why would I buy from you at spot, sell for a bit in front of spot, subtracting shipping either both from you and to the highest buyer, or even just to the purchaser, I'll be lucky to break even. Even if I held it, I'd be lucky to realize anything but a few bux profit.

TheSkeptic | 10-28-2009 02:00 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1) I am referring to the touchstone. I very rarely drop acid directly on the tested item. 2) All I can tell you about the assay is what I was told. If a coin contained no other metals but gold and copper, do you still maintain that someone couldn't identify the base metal? 3) I will pay spot for G/S/P Eagles and Engelhard silver bars (if I have to in order to get the deal), yes. But 99% of what we buy, no I do not. But I made the offer not as a B2B transaction, but as a transaction from someone I assumed stacked gold. If you aren't holding any PMs, and don't plan on buying any, then you are an oddity on this forum, so I just automatically assumed you would be interested in picking up what you think is 24K gold at no premium.

rodzm | 10-28-2009 02:47 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Do you all realize that this epic novel is now the 2nd most replied thread on the numismatic section

mamboni | 10-28-2009 02:53 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by rodzm (Post 1995427) Do you all realize that this epic novel is now the 2nd most replied thread on the numismatic section
Everyone enjoys a 'dog and pony show' from time to time!:cry1: Besides, TheSkeptic is an artist of sorts, when is comes to scatologic sculpture.:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Mr. Shiny | 10-28-2009 03:22 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1995347) ... 2) All I can tell you about the assay is what I was told. If a coin contained no other metals but gold and copper, do you still maintain that someone couldn't identify the base metal? 3) ... someone I assumed stacked gold. If you aren't holding any PMs, and don't plan on buying any, then you are an oddity on this forum, so I just automatically assumed you would be interested in picking up what you think is 24K gold at no premium.
Answer to two: All you could determine is the base metal was cupriferous (contains copper) from a green stain on the cupel, not that it only contains Cu. Answer to three: When I joined I was still in the business, now, as the saying goes, 'you can always tell the auto mechanic from the crappy car he drives'. Same goes for any career, to me, it's just a yellow metal, when you see it every day, it loses it's luster. (pun intended) You are in the scrap for gold business, how many pieces of jewelry have you cherry picked?

TheSkeptic | 10-28-2009 03:47 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Ironically out of hundreds and hundreds of ounces now, I have only picked out 3 small items for my girlfriend (and two were silver). She doesn't like jewelry all that much. It helps if you crush all the stones out before you store the jewelry! I do find gold and silver bullion pretty, and like to collect it because of the turmoil that the economy is in. So sometimes when choice forms of bullion come in, that gets cherry picked. I'm still in my 20s, so I have lots of financial preparation ahead of me. At this stage in your life, hedging against a dollar collapse is probably not a big deal, as I'd say you probably own your own home, car, etc. So my priorities have to be different than yours. But if the economy/govt/dollar weren't a disaster waiting to happen, I wouldn't hold on to any of it either. As for the assay, I heard the results second hand. It is possible that the assayer speculated that it was all copper, and it got passed on slightly differently. I don't know. The point is that it was 90% gold. It doesn't matter if the other 10% was Hershey's chocolate.

TheSkeptic | 10-28-2009 03:52 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1995437) Everyone enjoys a 'dog and pony show' from time to time!:cry1: Besides, TheSkeptic is an artist of sorts, when is comes to scatologic sculpture.:rofl::rofl::rofl:
I still don't understand what you're going on about. You look like an ignorant fool who never has anything serious or constructive to say.

Mr. Shiny | 10-28-2009 03:53 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Now I have to switch gears and call you out. Skeptic, I did ask nicely: Quote:
Now, in return, please admit that, maybe, perhaps, you kind of stretched the truth a bit about the assay and the 900 fine (9:1 Au/Cu ratio).
Note the 'please'. Why couldn't you just admit it? You are hanging yourself. Observe. You say: Quote:
But someone with your experience knows what gold looks like, and can often tell just by looking at something whether it is real, and can often tell what karat it is,
(my bolding of text) Yet you claim the coin in question is 90% Au 10%Cu (by so called assay). Soooooo, if that's true, Ray Charles could tell you it was fake, and he's blind and dead. Ooooooh, what's the Shiny one getting at you ask? Take a Amer. gold eagle, a Philharmonic'er or maple, and a K-Rand, line 'em up, see the difference, two (2) .917 coins and a pure. None even look alike, and two are the same karatage! Why's that Shiny? Because the K-Rand is 91.67% Au and 8.33% Cu (less copper than 'the coin from outer space') The eagle is 91.67% Au, 5.33% Cu, and 3% Ag. Giving it a brighter, more gold-like color. And of course the Maple or Philharmonic coins are 99.99% Au So, Skeptic, explain how a coin with a greater copper content than a Krugerrand, has a coloration of a four nine coin, or even if not exactly the same, certainly not K-Rand color.

TheSkeptic | 10-28-2009 03:58 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I posted another thread recently about a woman who scrapped a bracelet that had several coins on it. They included .900 (2 Peso, pre-1933 US), 22K (Eagle), and 24K (multiple, including a fractional Philharmonic). Laugh if you want, but it was fairly obvious to me, especially after I cut the coins out of their bezels and lined them up, what was what karat, simply by looking at them. Alloys may be slightly different, yes, but a .900 coin does not look like a 22K (though there is only a 1.67% difference!), and a 24K does not look like a 22K. You may also recall that I never, at any time, thought the coins were real. I thought they were counterfeit before the assay. I bought them as 18K scrap. Regardless, I don't see why one couldn't layer 24K over a thin core of copper, just like they do with tungsten. Maybe this is not chemically possible, I don't know.

Mr. Shiny | 10-28-2009 04:01 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1995529) As for the assay, I heard the results second hand. It is possible that the assayer speculated that it was all copper, and it got passed on slightly differently. I don't know. The point is that it was 90% gold. It doesn't matter if the other 10% was Hershey's chocolate.
It's not what I was looking for, but it'll have to do.

TheSkeptic | 10-28-2009 04:05 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? But even if you deny that I've proven it was fake, you are smoking crack if you think anyone in this thread has proved that it was real. Yet you get smug asswipes like Mamboni, oboshoe, and others, who don't even know anything about the issue, coming and making comments as if that had in fact been proven. Then you get the intelligent yet stubborn types like Bob who won't even believe more scientific data such as the specific gravity test. People will always find a reason to bury their head in the sand; and I suspect that several of these guys are holding more than one Philharmonic in a safety deposit box somewhere. In the meantime, there are countless threads across this forum of other types of fakes - and even on silver coins - being discovered. People are just not wanting to wake up and live in reality. Just because it looks real does not always mean it is real.

TomD | 10-28-2009 06:42 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? First off I would like to make clear that, while I'm going to disagree with you, it is on a factual not an adversarial or emotional basis. Secondly, I'm willing to be proven wrong, happens all the time. The entire argument isn't that a dimensionally correct gold Philharmonic made from .900 gold is impossible but that it is improbable to the degree that such a claim, in order to be accepted, requires a level of proof significantly beyond that which you presented (IMO). Your proof revolved pretty much exclusively around what a Court of Law would term hearsay. Considering that to date your claim or anything substantially resembling it is unduplicated in the rest of the world, your burden of proof becomes greater. You are correct in that there have been a number of threads concerning fake or counterfeit coins on GIM and elsewher. But we have been talking about fakes, base metal copies. There also exists the concept of counterfeits: copies of valuable numismatic coins made from the correct metal alloys where the profit come from the rarity of the coin. You are claiming an animal that has never before been seen, a copy of a common bullion coin made from an almost correct alloy. Counterfeiters want to make money but in your scenario, there is no money to be made in numismatic premium and very little in metal premium, in short: negligible or no profit motive. By the time the dies are made, production, distribution, profit cuts to everyone along the way, what you are claiming makes no economic sense. They would have to made many thousands to break even but no one else has seen one. Why would anyone make this coin? Skeptic, I've no axes to grind and consider you to be a very good GIM contributor, especially with your insights into the scrap buying world. But my view is that you did not prove your case. BTW: below is my concept of Skeptic and Mamboni in their next reincarnation http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2616/...d21133a9_b.jpg

momopanda | 10-28-2009 06:58 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1995807) what you are claiming makes no economic sense.
There is the one scenario of the very mint in question being the doper, so to speak. Skeptic, pretty sure asswipe is a personal attack, may want to ditch that comment.

mamboni | 10-28-2009 07:09 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1995807) BTW: below is my concept of Skeptic and Mamboni in their next reincarnation http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2616/...d21133a9_b.jpg
Very funny TomD. But I have had TheSkeptic on my ignore list for over a month and cannot read any of his delusional worthless posts except for what others quote, tragically. The following would therefore be more accurate:

TomD | 10-28-2009 07:24 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by momopanda (Post 1995830) There is the one scenario of the very mint in question being the doper, so to speak.
A national mint purposefully shorting on purity? Dunno about that, frankly consider it to be the very least likely scenario. Talk about a lot to lose, the credibility of the whole institution and so easy to prove. Any major send a sampling for assay---

azxcvbnm321 | 10-28-2009 08:49 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Plus there would be political turmoil as the purity is guaranteed by the government. Someone would have to resign, unless they found a scapegoat instead. That would lead to investigations and you can be sure if the head of the Mint didn't know, he would demand full criminal prosecution to save his own ass. Because politics are involved, you know the opposition party will try to make a ruckus and since the coins have a government guarantee, some sort of program will have to be set up to fully refund or replace whatever coins are thought to be illegitimate. Free tests will have to be offered by the government or a general recall of all coins and replacement. Yes, it's VERY unlikely a national mint would deliberately do this because all proceeds go to the government. No employee can make a profit doing this unless they were taking the gold that they skimmed by replacing gold with alloys in the coin. That's possible I suppose, but they somehow would need control of the manufacturing process, you can't just mix in alloys to supposedly 99.99% gold without a lot of changes to the manufacturing of the blanks. Someone should be able to notice. Seems like a decent number of people would have to be involved. Very unlikely.

momopanda | 10-28-2009 09:18 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Oh I agree. Very unlikely. As you posted though Tom, what other explanation is possible (if you are to believe all that is contained in this thread- that's up to the reader.) As I said, unlikely. Yet how many think the US government actually has all that gold in Ft Knox? Yeah, it's not exactly the same but... Nobody here trusts any government any farther than they can be thrown, and rightly so, yet the Mints are beyond reproach? Again, as I said, very unlikely. I'll stick with Occam on this one.

SWRichmond | 10-28-2009 09:33 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop posting in this thread? Will these people PLEASE stop posting in this "We'll never agree on anything but let's keep right on arguing" thread so that I can stop seeing it on top of the subforum?

Montecristo | 10-28-2009 10:53 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Mr. Shiny, In your estimation as a refiner and someone who has seen and tested a lot of scrap, what metal could these guys be passing off as 18kt in the following story? Quote:
JEWELERS MUST ALWAYS BE ON HIGH ALERT WHEN BUYING GOLD! Glens Falls, NY – October 2009 Two Hispanic males produced an item at a retail jewelry store that they wanted to sell that was stamped 18 karat and purported to be white and yellow gold. The jeweler was suspicious and subjected the item to several acid tests and got a positive result each time that it was 18 karat. Even after scraping and filing it down, the item still tested as 18 karat. Later when the jeweler had the item heated and subjected to a torch, he determined it wasn’t gold. However, the sellers had immediately cashed their check at the local bank after leaving the store. There have been recent reports of similar attempts in Saratoga and Albany, NY. There has been a large increase of crime reports to JSA involving frauds and switches against retail jewelers when they are buying gold from walk-in sellers. Due to the poor economy and the high price of gold, the buying of gold by retail jewelers has increased dramatically and has resulted in a substantial increase in these crimes. JSA has received over 25 reports involving gold buying frauds committed against retail jewelers in 2009. There are two basic types of crimes: 1. The seller will produce a real gold item which the jeweler will test and will determine that it is in fact gold. However, sometime before the seller leaves the store with cash or a check, the seller switches the item that was tested for a non-gold item. The seller may switch it by putting it back in a bag and taking out a different item or some other method. 2. The seller will produce a fake gold item which is heavily plated and tests positive that it is gold, however, the gold plating is only superficial. The jeweler pays and the seller leaves. The jeweler later subjects the item to more rigorous testing and discovers it is not gold and that there has been a fraud.

TheSkeptic | 10-28-2009 11:11 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop posting in this thread? Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1995807) First off I would like to make clear that, while I'm going to disagree with you, it is on a factual not an adversarial or emotional basis.
That is refreshing, and I can respect that. Some who have posted, and continue to post (mamboni for instance) do so not out of sincerity or a desire to have a reasonable discussion, but just out of emotion. Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1995807) The entire argument isn't that a dimensionally correct gold Philharmonic made from .900 gold is impossible but that it is improbable to the degree that such a claim, in order to be accepted, requires a level of proof significantly beyond that which you presented (IMO).
I am amazed to hear someone admit this, because to this point I thought everyone seriously believed that a coin like this wasn't possible. I have also emphasized throughout this thread that I don't fully see or understand the financial or practical motivation for producing coins like this. I have put out some reasonable possibilities, which may or may not be the case: someone is trying to discredit the Austrian mint to discourage investment in their products - just like countries have routinely counterfeited each other's currencies to devalue them the mint could have (and without admitting it publicly) outsourced work to someone else, who found a way to skim off the top a very sophisticated and well funded counterfeiter decided to make money on volume, and create a coin highly unlikely to be caught, rather than create low-purity imitations which would be difficult to move, more likely to be caught, and more unlikely to be sustainable as a revenue source for a long time like a barely detectable counterfeit would Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1995807) Skeptic, I've no axes to grind and consider you to be a very good GIM contributor, especially with your insights into the scrap buying world. But my view is that you did not prove your case.
I think you will find from my earlier posts that I don't expect everyone to demand refunds for their Philharmonics based on this thread. But in absolutely no way has anyone proven that the coin is NOT fake, either. And you have people behaving childishly, like Mamboni following me around in every thread I start or participate in, calling me a shill/liar/etc., apparently thinking that his particular viewpoint about the coin has actually been proven here. It hasn't. What is sad is that I offered the sample for sale at 90%, and no one wanted it. And I offered Mr.Shiny an undamaged whole coin, which I believe could be part of the same 'batch', and he passed. No one has the balls to shell out the money for one of these and test it further, yet they definitely have the expertise to comment on how undeniably wrong I am. :confused_m: Quote:
Originally Posted by momopanda (Post 1995830) There is the one scenario of the very mint in question being the doper, so to speak. Skeptic, pretty sure asswipe is a personal attack, may want to ditch that comment.
Sorry, but I'm not concerned. There have been a lot of very heated and rude things said, and accusations made, in this thread, partly by me and partly by others. Mamboni is in fact an ignorant asshole, if you look at the history you will find that that is not an unreasonable statement. Some of the others in this thread, kind of like the guy who compared me to a child molester for daring to question the Sacred Philharmonic, have just been morons. Lots of stupid stupid posts, stupid people, childish behavior, etc. I call it like I see it. If that gets me banned or reported, so be it. Quote:
Originally Posted by SWRichmond (Post 1996071) Will these people PLEASE stop posting in this "We'll never agree on anything but let's keep right on arguing" thread so that I can stop seeing it on top of the subforum?
*bump*

TheSkeptic | 10-28-2009 11:15 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? The white could've been stainless or titanium or tungsten; they don't seem to react to any of the gold testing acids, even 22K. But a jeweler would've certainly picked up the visual difference immediately. Very interesting story.

Montecristo | 10-29-2009 09:38 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1996248) The white could've been stainless or titanium or tungsten; they don't seem to react to any of the gold testing acids, even 22K. But a jeweler would've certainly picked up the visual difference immediately. Very interesting story.
I believe it may have been stainless steel also. A few years back, here in Detroit, there was a couple guys similar to the ones described in the security alert, who made the rounds at many of the pawn shops in town. All the chains and bracelets were the same, a Rolex style link. They were white metal stamped 18k. I saw a piece then, and determined that it most likely was stainless, but that was before I had the x-ray fluorescence machine. I would like to see a piece now and analyze it on the machine. I was hoping Mr. Shiny would have some input into confirming this or maybe some other information to share.

Mr. Shiny | 10-29-2009 10:20 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Montecristo, While I am reticent on discussing how to defraud, I will give my opinion. Without seeing the item this is entirely conjecture. I suspect the item was a chain, they are popular in white metal (Pt, WG, even Sterling) lately with the youth. Now the meat of the post, a lot of fraudulent chain hits the market at swap meets, trade shows, etc.. Vendors will set up a booth selling chain of various weights and styles buy the inch at prices below retail but still in line with market value. Now, because the chain is on a roll and has to be made-up, that means the vendor has to attach the tabs, a clasp, and rings. You pick out a nice pattern, they attach the findings (10 or 14 karat, and marked as such). The scam comes from the fact the chain is base or 4k (more on this later). The vendor then hands over the merchandise and probably a business card (with phony info, so if you do detect the scam they are long gone and can't be held responsible and to appear legit). Now on to this case, when you take your gold to a jeweler/pawn shop for sale, especially chains, they don't automatically toss it in the scrap heap, they make more bux on resale, so they don't usually scratch, file, or otherwise damage the chain portion, but will test the findings (these are easy to replace, they ARE jewelers), so it goes to reason this person was wary and tested an area such as the tabs, which of course are genuine karated material, and the bulk base metal. Now a word about the 4k jewelry, the reason for 4k is these scammers (this one is worried about detection, but has a built in defense should they get nabbed) will use findings specially made for this con, the karat stamp will have a kinda/sorta 1 before the 4k so it kinda/sorta appears to be 14k, the but you could be mistaken. "Look here your Honor, that is clearly stamped 4k, I would never attempt to sell fraudulent goods." "I swear!" "No, your Honor, I do not understand why this person paid far too much for the clearly marked 4k jewelry, but those are my prices, and they reflect what the market will bear." I need to bathe, I feel so dirty discussing how to con. Seriously.

TheSkeptic | 10-29-2009 10:23 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Stainless feels noticeably different than gold when you are scratching a sample onto a touch stone. Especially noticeable if you are using a smooth type like Prostone. Most of the time you can tell you're dealing with a base metal before you even drop acid on it - and that's if you can't tell just by looking at it. By the way - what is the smallest X-Ray fluorescence machine you can get?

TheSkeptic | 10-29-2009 10:26 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? It is illegal in the US to market anything less than 10K as "gold". So I don't see how that defense would hold up in court. I have seen plenty of chains (usually herringbones) that are clearly stamped 14K (no fudging, and with a nice clean professional stamp), but they are magnetic and miserably fail an acid test (even on 10K acid). But the telltale sign of these chains is that they are never stamped on the clasp. I have never seen a fake chain stamped 585 though. Though interestingly, I did see a chain one time that was very obviously not even gold or silver, but was stamped 583. I told him that .583 was the theoretical mathematical purity of 14K, but everyone uses .585 for some reason. He didn't think the chain was real either. It was the only time I've ever seen 583 stamped on anything.

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Mr. Shiny | 10-29-2009 10:44 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
And I offered Mr.Shiny an undamaged whole coin, which I believe could be part of the same 'batch', and he passed. No one has the balls to shell out the money for one of these and test it further, yet they definitely have the expertise to comment on how undeniably wrong I am.
Ya know Skeptic, you really know how to piss off people. I'm supposed to travel to your locale to pick up a single coin? Depending on distance are you willing to pay for fuel, airfare, a damn bus ticket? Or do you think I'm stupid enough to send you funds for a coin I may never receive? Don't forget, the onus is on you, you may very well be a con man. My and anyone else's balls don't figure into this equation, you claim the coin is phony, which you can't prove. Your methodology of test sucks to put it gently.

TheSkeptic | 10-29-2009 10:49 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny (Post 1996778) Ya know Skeptic, you really know how to piss off people. I'm supposed to travel to your locale to pick up a single coin? Depending on distance are you willing to pay for fuel, airfare, a damn bus ticket? Or do you think I'm stupid enough to send you funds for a coin I may never receive? Don't forget, the onus is on you, you may very well be a con man. My and anyone else's balls don't figure into this equation, you claim the coin is phony, which you can't prove. Your methodology of test sucks to put it gently.
So you can call me a liar, try to "expose" me, etc., yet you can't handle a little blunt truth? By the way - someone just sent me $3500 for some coins, and they are in the mail right now. And other members have publicly verified successful trades with me, one of which involved over 100oz of silver, so more money than I asked for the coin. Get over yourself. And if I cannot prove that the coin is fake, that means it is REAL, right? Which means you're getting an ounce of gold cheap! Does advanced age prohibit you from understanding simple concepts like that?

Montecristo | 10-29-2009 10:53 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Thanks for your input Mr. Shiny. Skeptic, I don't know what the smallest machine is for x-ray fluorescence. I know someone, (sorry, I can't remember who) makes a hand held, portable "gun", it is about the size of a price scanner found at a grocery store. It is not as accurate as the larger table top models, but for someone like yourself, bouncing between several locations, it might fit your needs.

TheSkeptic | 10-29-2009 10:54 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I even PMed a member yesterday who offered me a huge premium on these, offering to sell to him for UNDER spot and trusting him to give me the premium later, and no response. The bottom line is, everyone likes to talk, but when it comes time to put their money behind it, everyone's too scared.

Mr. Shiny | 10-29-2009 11:12 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Alright Mr. Trust me I'm the Skeptic, Let's put the proverbial shoe on the other foot. How about you send out coins to members for testing and trust them to return the unused portion + 90%spot (dollars) for the part missing. And just so you know, the method you used for your S.G. tests is flawed.

TheSkeptic | 10-29-2009 11:46 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I used the same method that others used to determine their coins were authentic. Please explain where I went wrong, I am always open to learning. If I had not completed any other deals and didn't have any feedback on them, it would be different. But someone sent me over 100oz of silver, trusting me to send something in return, and they didn't get ripped off. Someone else sent $3500 in money orders and I did not rip them off. I sent them exactly what I represented I would. So for someone to use that as an excuse is pretty weak. Now, if you don't buy/collect PMs, that is a valid reason. But many of these lame-ass drive by analysts DO buy PMs, so for them to pass on a great deal for a coin they just KNOW is real, shows their uncertainty (or maybe, like mamboni, they're secretly broke?). As I mentioned, even someone who has repeatedly and publicly stated they would like to buy the coin, when I PMed them about purchasing an undamaged whole one, ignored me. Money talks...

Mr. Shiny | 10-29-2009 12:12 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1996851) I used the same method that others used to determine their coins were authentic. Please explain where I went wrong, I am always open to learning.
I have no reason to pick on 'Bottom Feeder', and for testing whole coins, large items, etc. the method is fine. But in your case, the half coin and then a tiny bit of coin you tested wrapped in floss, that floss added substantial area, that added area lowers the S.G. giving you a result inline with .900 fine for a coin that is 99.99% Au. Test a whole coin. Better yet, for all those who use this 'Bottom Feeder' method, quantify your work. Run an initial test, prior to testing suspect coins, do the S.G. on a item of known density, using distilled water. If the equation works out to the known density you are 'good to go'. If not, you'll quickly see the error. Edit: It's also qualifiers like this: Quote:
which I believe could be part of the same 'batch',
that prevent a wise person from dealing with you. If I purchased the coin, tested it and it was determined to be 100% real, you'd just say "Gee, it must not have been from the same batch." Sure, I wouldn't be out anything but time, but that's not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is you claim fake Phil.s. and can't prove it, and won't accept reason.

TheSkeptic | 10-29-2009 12:21 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I don't think Bottom Feeder would take any offense to constructive criticism on his method. I can test a whole coin, the only problems I see are: - the only scale I have which goes to a resolution of 1/100th of a gram can only handle 100g. Having a container big enough for the whole coin plus the water needed for it to suspend in, may make the test impossible unless I order another high sensitivity scale. - I could drill a hole in the coin and suspend it in without having to wrap floss all the way around it, but I assume that would cause a problem with accuracy as well. Or, someone could step up and buy the damn thing, and run their own tests. I'll sell it for $975 shipped. That is what I have in it, plus enough to cover my shipping and buy me a decent steak.

Mr. Shiny | 10-29-2009 12:43 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1996909) - I could drill a hole in the coin and suspend it in without having to wrap floss all the way around it, but I assume that would cause a problem with accuracy as well.
You could drill the coin full of holes and it won't effect the S.G.. You could drill a hole in it, but to be honest, I wouldn't, because when the coin shows as 9999, it will be scrap.

TheSkeptic | 10-29-2009 01:58 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? That's OK, I never intended to sell it at a premium anyway. If I drill a small hole in it and run the floss through that hole, there will still be a tiny bit of floss in the water, but wouldn't that be a negligible amount?

AgKanga | 10-29-2009 02:20 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop posting in this thread? Quote:
Originally Posted by SWRichmond (Post 1996071) Will these people PLEASE stop posting in this "We'll never agree on anything but let's keep right on arguing" thread so that I can stop seeing it on top of the subforum?
It's like a fatal car accident...you don't want to look, you know you won't like what you see, but you just can't resist and look anyway!?!? :Surrender: And now I have bumped it to the top again:banghead: :signs14:

mamboni | 10-29-2009 02:27 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny (Post 1996968) You could drill the coin full of holes and it won't effect the S.G.. You could drill a hole in it, but to be honest, I wouldn't, because when the coin shows as 9999, it will be scrap.
Mr. Shiny, There is only one hole in this thread; and it's not the one in the coin.:wink: Why do you waste your time and expertise on pretenders and rank amateurs?

Mr. Shiny | 10-29-2009 03:00 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1997177) Mr. Shiny, Why do you waste your time and expertise on pretenders and rank amateurs?
Ever since joining here I've ruffled feathers, rattled cages, and wasted time in an effort that maybe, someone, at some time, gleans a bit of something from my posts and is a tiny bit brighter for it. This Skeptic episode doesn't bother me, he will stick to his story no matter what. Which is sad, though at this point he can do nothing but, even an admission of error on his part would result in derision. I would hope he would admit to being wrong and that the membership accept the admission and only chide him mildly (moderately?), but I doubt that would be the case.

TheSkeptic | 10-29-2009 03:15 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I'm still waiting on an answer to my question about 22K acid discoloring/melting 24K gold on a touchstone, and still waiting on someone to buy a dirt cheap "real" gold coin! You act like you have brought some revolutionary new light to this topic. You really haven't added anything at all to the discussion, at least at this point. Perhaps you can be useful by telling me how to more accurately determine the specific gravity of the coin. Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shiny (Post 1997225) Ever since joining here I've ruffled feathers, rattled cages, and wasted time in an effort that maybe, someone, at some time, gleans a bit of something from my posts and is a tiny bit brighter for it.
I know the feeling.

rodzm | 10-29-2009 03:36 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Sorry I have to say this... Mamboni and TheSkeptic... a match made in heaven :111: i still have enjoyed this thread and learned many things from it

Mr. Shiny | 10-29-2009 03:40 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? This is for all members that care, except Skeptic. http://i34.tinypic.com/30m25xg.jpg You make one of these, the thinner, the stiffer the wire the better. Weigh the coin dry. Hang frame from string and submerge frame to the marks empty, zero scale. Add coin to frame, submerge to marks again, read scale. Calculate. By using a frame, and submerging to the mark, you have repeatability. By submerging to the mark and zeroing, you remove the underwater portion of wire from the density calculations. For the ignorant boob who posted this: Quote:
You act like you have brought some revolutionary new light to this topic. You really haven't added anything at all to the discussion, at least at this point. Perhaps you can be useful by telling me how to more accurately determine the specific gravity of the coin.
I will be joining Mamboni in ignoring you, you are beyond help, and ignor(e)ant.

TheSkeptic | 10-29-2009 03:47 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Excellent way to completely avoid my very basic question. Wishing you many more years of blissful senility.

AgKanga | 10-29-2009 04:46 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1997246) Perhaps you can be useful by telling me how to more accurately determine the specific gravity of the coin.
I have no idea why I am getting involved in this other than being jet-lagged, sleep deprived and trying to find anything that will put me to sleep....BUT... doesn't the detailed explanation above from Shiny explain EXACTLY how to go about determining SG of the coin in question??? AND.... "By using a frame, and submerging to the mark, you have repeatability. By submerging to the mark and zeroing, you remove the underwater portion of wire from the density calculations." WILL ALSO.... Allow you to use your 100g scale since you zero out (tare) the water volume BEFORE you add the coin. One fluid ounce of water weighs 29.574 grams, so if you use a 3 oz dixie cup to perform your analysis you should be able to fill the cup with enough distilled water to submerge the coin and not exceed your 100g limitations. Does this provide enough information for you to measure the SG of a WHOLE coin and provide the results? Perhaps this will settle this soap opera mystery once and for all.....:sleep::sleep::sleep::sleep:

TheSkeptic | 10-29-2009 05:23 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Yes, if I am not able to sell the sample I have now, I'll do another SG test. Honestly I'd rather just let someone else fool with it.

bottom feeder | 10-31-2009 12:26 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Its really hard to do SG on small amounts of Au. (at least in my amateur procedure) As I have said before a 1/10 oz would probably be too small � the error margins would overcome your readings. I�m going to incorporate the cradle with marks idea of Mr Shiny in my procedure to see if I can bring up the accuracy. bf

TomD | 11-10-2009 02:44 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by bottom feeder (Post 2000398) Its really hard to do SG on small amounts of Au. (at least in my amateur procedure) As I have said before a 1/10 oz would probably be too small � the error margins would overcome your readings. I�m going to incorporate the cradle with marks idea of Mr Shiny in my procedure to see if I can bring up the accuracy. bf
How are you doing on your efforts? I've spent a lot of time finding what works and what doesn't, maybe we can compare notes and do a How To. I just finished a thorough-as-I-can-make-it exam of the 2nd Philharmonic acquired by Skeptic. I've just got raw data now but I'll post the results in an hour or two.

Professur | 11-10-2009 02:58 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? *moves to the edge of his seat*

TomD | 11-10-2009 04:57 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I posted this in it's own thread but I suppose I should duplicate it here too. As background for anyone who doesn't know, there was an Odessy of a thread on GIM titled "Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?". This thread has to date spanned almost 5 months, 620 replies and 20,500 views. The thread was built around the purchase of 2 alleged one ounce gold Philharmonic coins from some sellers who appeared to the OP to be suspicious. The OP is a PM scrap dealer who commonly buys scrap gold jewelry of unknown purity and therefore is familiar with acid purity testing. Upon testing one of the Phils the OP came to the conclusion that the coins were of no more than .900 pure gold. In addition, he cut the coin in sections and stated that there was a discolored area in the center of the coin but he lacked the means to photo the coin well enough to show us. The physical dimensions of the coin and weight were checked and were found to be consistent with published data on Philharmonics. Admittedly the rim thickness measured a little thinner (1.89 mm measured Vs 2.00 mm published). So we were faced with the claim of possession of a potentially counterfeit major bullion .999 gold coin of essentially perfect dimensions and weight but made from .900 gold. This claim started a storm of back and forth charges and countercharges lasting for months and leaving several GIM members with lasting emotional scars. There was never a final resolution to the issue. Of the two original coins one was acid tested and cut up, pretty much destroyed, but the second was kept in original condition. Recently the OP decided to sell the sell the second coin and solicited a buyer on GIM on the condition that the buyer knew the history and controversy of the coin. The buyer of the coin contacted me and asked if I would be interested in scrutinizing it. Yep. I received the coin earlier today, the testing and photography didn't take long. Below I'll describe my methods, data and conclusions along with side by side comparison photographs. I compared the coin in question to both published data and also to another gold Philharmonic coin, a 2005, that I've owned for several years. It was purchased from Apmex. Physical measurements: Using a 2 decimal accurate digital scale and a Mititoyo digital calipers I measured the weight, diameter, thickness at the rim and thickness in the field of both my coin and the coin in question. Results are shown below along with the published data. If you are familiar with comparing sample coins to other samples and to published data, you will find nothing in the dimensional findings that would cause concern. I don't know if there is anything useful to be had from thickness measurements of the field of a coin. The thickness varies depending where you measure. You'll note that this is the only substantial difference between the 2 coins. I'm tempted to write it off to die wear variations. Density testing: I won't get into a description of the process here, for that do a forum search for "bottom feeder method" or "Archimedes", there has recently been a lot written here on the theory and application of the method along with pictures. I don't exactly have a full laboratory with professional level gear to implement the "bottom feeder" method. I have been experimenting quite a bit recently in preparation and have determined that the method as I am currently applying it can be relied to produce repeatable results of density to 1 decimal place and to within +/- .1 gram per CC. Considering that the density of pure gold is 19.3 grams/CC and a .900 gold alloy will be in the low to mid 17s grams/CC, an error of +/- .1 gram/CC is easily accurate enough. Last week I found that my current method will differentiate between .900 gold and .917. I could fairly easily make a rig that would carry the accuracy to the second decimal but I would have to spend at least several hundred dollars on a much better and higher capacity scale than I now have. My results today for both coins was (a rounded) 19.2 grams/CC. This is .1 gram shy of the published density of gold but it's what my rig yielded today. Even so, the result is 99.5% of that of pure gold and within the accuracy limits of my rig. I conclude that they are both pure gold. I did not adjust the results for water, but that would have slightly increased the resulting density. http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...f/PhilTest.gif Conclusion: In comparing my baseline coin to the coin in question and to the published data for that type of coin I conclude that both coins in my possession are dimensionally identical to within tolerances normally found on mass produced bullion gold coins. Furthermore both coins agree with published data to within normal tolerances. Close observation of the side by side pictures show no discernable differences other that some wear on the 2009 coin. Note: The 2005 is mine and has never left an airtite, the 2009 shows some signs of handling. My conclusion is that both coins are normal samples of .999 gold Philharmonic coins. Questions, did I leave anything out? http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...tuff/reeds.jpg http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...tuff/heads.jpg http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...tuff/tails.jpg http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...nsity-test.jpg

Professur | 11-10-2009 05:12 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? *bows to the master*

newmisty | 11-10-2009 07:13 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Just noticing that the French horn is in a different place on the 2 coins. Any thoughts?

beercritic | 11-10-2009 07:20 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Cut 'em both in half to see the secret center area. Sorry.

momopanda | 11-10-2009 07:28 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Tom, how can you be so obtuse? It's obvious that the one you owned is also a counterfeit , and likely the product of the same, nefarious, though 90% honest , and therefore less greedy than most, counterfeit mastermind. Now it's obvious to all that this has in fact been going on for years, and the ramifications are much further reaching than ititially presumed! You ought contact Interpol immediately i should say. :bear_tongue:

AgKanga | 11-10-2009 07:46 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by newmisty (Post 2018403) Just noticing that the French horn is in a different place on the 2 coins. Any thoughts?
Good eye, there is also a subtle difference in the mouthpiece of the Oboe. Maybe they made some minor changes when they made new dies. The date is also set a little before "Gold" on the 2005 where the 2009 lines up with the G. Tom, thanks for taking the time to properly test this coin and bring this thread to closure. Now, you're sure you didn't get the coin in question mixed up with a real Phil along the way, right? :cry1::cry1::cry1::signs14:

dissident | 11-12-2009 05:53 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? I just buy it from apmex now even if it costs more per ounce because of bing cashback or whatever.. I trust them to send the real thing, every time. Not so with some of the ebay auctions I've seen.

SWRichmond | 11-12-2009 08:25 AM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Excellent, thanks a bunch Tom.

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Firenhole | 11-12-2009 01:09 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Skeptic please lock this novel down...enough is enough!

bottom feeder | 11-19-2009 01:57 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by Firenhole (Post 2021957) Skeptic please lock this novel down...enough is enough!
No, No, BTT Skeptic; Hey, lookit; these guys were talking about this back in Oct, 2008. http://unlawflcombatnt.proboards.com...ay&thread=4058 bf

TheSkeptic | 11-19-2009 02:13 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Interesting link. I think it would be interesting to see the center of one of these again. I asked the person who bought the Phil recently if Tom could cut it in half and photograph the center; he didn't want that done, for good reasons, which I respect. I tried to obtain the last 3 I know of a few days ago, the guy suddenly thinks these coins are the crown jewels and wanted way too much. So I passed.

gangsta99 | 12-17-2009 11:03 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 2033926) Interesting link. I think it would be interesting to see the center of one of these again. I asked the person who bought the Phil recently if Tom could cut it in half and photograph the center; he didn't want that done, for good reasons, which I respect. I tried to obtain the last 3 I know of a few days ago, the guy suddenly thinks these coins are the crown jewels and wanted way too much. So I passed.
What you are really saying is that the guy knows what he stole or what his redneck/african american friends stole are actually real coins and wants closer to real value for them. So as of right now you are the only person in the world who thinks these are fake, even the thiefs who stole them know the truth. If only someone posted this pic right off the bat and it would have been /thread http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r..._story_bro.jpg

TheSkeptic | 12-18-2009 06:17 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? The "guy" is a pawn shop owner who purchased them months ago, not the "thieves." Read before you post. Thanks.

GardensGold&Guns | 12-29-2009 04:42 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? have you guys seen this??? http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/200..._lawsui_1.html couple of guys got busted selling fake gold mapleleafs

SLV>GLD | 12-29-2009 05:05 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by GardensGold&Guns (Post 2099432) have you guys seen this??? http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/200..._lawsui_1.html couple of guys got busted selling fake gold mapleleafs
Detectable fakes, no less!!

GardensGold&Guns | 12-29-2009 07:22 PM
Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins? Quote:
Originally Posted by newmisty (Post 2018403) Just noticing that the French horn is in a different place on the 2 coins. Any thoughts?
WOW .......thats creepy

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