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- - Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=393253)

TomD | 07-22-2009 07:21 PM
Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic 4 Attachment(s) This is the same post that I made in the thread " Official Gold coin specification vs theoretical weight" but it was buried deep in. I think the subject too important to be buried. For people whose eyes glaze at at the 1st mention of technical data, allow me to summarize: I think rumors of fake philharmonics are BS. How to identify a Austrian Gold Philharmonic using commonly available measuring instruments: I got a Phil and took it down to Tom's Tech Cave to see what sort of measurement data came up. This particular Phil was bought in 2006 from a major dealer so I have a lot of confidence in it. Using professional level devices, I measured the coin in all dimensions, results below. Below I weighed it on a scale accurate to 1/100th gram. I have test weights down to .1 grain (1/70,000th lb), so the scale is accurate. The micrometer is calibrated in inches and is accurate to 10,000th inch and the caliper is good to 1/100th mm. The tools are professional level accurate. Weight: 31.11 grams, pretty much spot flipping on Diameter: 37.00 mm, again spot on Here's where it gets to be a little more fun: Thickness: depends on how and where you measure it. Thickness measured with a caliper: I used a Mitutoyo, a top end instrument. It has a definite "cut" in the jaws, top and bottom so it isn't reading the rim. Depending on how the coin was oriented, the reading was between 1.69 mm and 1.74 mm. I measured with the coin oriented in a lot of different ways and all measurements fell in this range. You may find a small (few thousandth) variation depending on die wear. Thickness with a micrometer: Understand that this micrometer, a Starret, is the "gold standard" of measuring instruments and is used by machinists to check very precise work. There is no place on the coin where there is no raised surface on the coin on both sides large enough to get a measurement of the field. The measurements varied, according to placement, from the lowest observed .0639" (there is a vernier on the back side of the instrument) to a high of .0647". In metric these equate to 1.62 mm to 1.64 mm. I interpret the difference between the caliper and micrometer readings to the probability that the caliper was resting on some minor high points compared to the much smaller contact area of the micrometer. I think that the video showing a Phil at 1.65 mm thickness as measured by a caliper, concluding that it is a fake, is misinformed at best.

TheSkeptic | 07-22-2009 07:46 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Tom, Again, I know you have not personally seen the coin we bought, but it assayed at just over 90%. And it fails an acid test. And after cutting it in half, you can see without question a plating. It is fake. Now, since my statements alone cannot be taken as proof, I reiterate what I said in the first of what is now three threads about these counterfeits, that I will try to retain one so a full assay can be performed and everyone can see what I'm talking about.

TomD | 07-22-2009 07:59 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1830855) Tom, Again, I know you have not personally seen the coin we bought, but it assayed at just over 90%. And it fails an acid test. And after cutting it in half, you can see without question a plating. It is fake. Now, since my statements alone cannot be taken as proof, I reiterate what I said in the first of what is now three threads about these counterfeits, that I will try to retain one so a full assay can be performed and everyone can see what I'm talking about.
I sure wish you could document the coin through high quality pictures and measurements. "When making extraordinary claims, extraordinary evidence is necessary"

mamboni | 07-22-2009 08:01 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1830818) This is the same post that I made in the thread " Official Gold coin specification vs theoretical weight" but it was buried deep in. I think the subject too important to be buried. For people whose eyes glaze at at the 1st mention of technical data, allow me to summarize: I think rumors of fake philharmonics are BS. How to identify a Austrian Gold Philharmonic using commonly available measuring instruments: I got a Phil and took it down to Tom's Tech Cave to see what sort of measurement data came up. This particular Phil was bought in 2006 from a major dealer so I have a lot of confidence in it. Using professional level devices, I measured the coin in all dimensions, results below. Below I weighed it on a scale accurate to 1/100th gram. I have test weights down to .1 grain (1/70,000th lb), so the scale is accurate. The micrometer is calibrated in inches and is accurate to 10,000th inch and the caliper is good to 1/100th mm. The tools are professional level accurate. Weight: 31.11 grams, pretty much spot flipping on Diameter: 37.00 mm, again spot on Here's where it gets to be a little more fun: Thickness: depends on how and where you measure it. Thickness measured with a caliper: I used a Mitutoyo, a top end instrument. It has a definite "cut" in the jaws, top and bottom so it isn't reading the rim. Depending on how the coin was oriented, the reading was between 1.69 mm and 1.74 mm. I measured with the coin oriented in a lot of different ways and all measurements fell in this range. You may find a small (few thousandth) variation depending on die wear. Thickness with a micrometer: Understand that this micrometer, a Starret, is the "gold standard" of measuring instruments and is used by machinists to check very precise work. There is no place on the coin where there is no raised surface on the coin on both sides large enough to get a measurement of the field. The measurements varied, according to placement, from the lowest observed .0639" (there is a vernier on the back side of the instrument) to a high of .0647". In metric these equate to 1.62 mm to 1.64 mm. I interpret the difference between the caliper and micrometer readings to the probability that the caliper was resting on some minor high points compared to the much smaller contact area of the micrometer. I think that the video showing a Phil at 1.65 mm thickness as measured by a caliper, concluding that it is a fake, is misinformed at best.
TomD: Because of these Gold Philharmonic threads, I now suffer from a debilitating neurosis known as Aurophilharmonicafakocoinophobia:36_1_25:. Whenever I see a Gold Philharmonic coin, I become short of breath and develop an unbearable urge to drop test acid on it. You can help me. There is only one way: Can you cut your coin in half so I can see that it really is gold thruought?:biggrin: Thanks in advance.:clap2:

TheSkeptic | 07-22-2009 08:05 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1830881) I sure wish you could document the coin through high quality pictures and measurements. "When making extraordinary claims, extraordinary evidence is necessary"
I should be getting the unfired half back tomorrow, I can scan it but just can't think of a way to get the variation in color to show in the scan, since I would have to turn the coin vertically. I'll try it and see how it turns out. Of course, if it does turn out well, people will just say that I Photoshopped it. Same thing they will say if I post an assay certificate. Or, they'll just say that the assay cert was from some other piece. I could easily make a video of that one failing an acid test, though people would just say "where's the other half of the coin?" They'd have a point, but unless you are physically present, there is only so much I can do.

TheSkeptic | 07-22-2009 08:06 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1830886) I now suffer from a debilitating neurosis known as Aurophilharmonicafakocoinophobia:36_1_25:.
There is a government issued vaccine for that.

TomD | 07-22-2009 08:07 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1830886) TomD: Because of these Gold Philharmonic threads, I now suffer from a debilitating neurosis known as Aurophilharmonicafakocoinophobia:36_1_25:. Whenever I see a Gold Philharmonic coin, I become short of breath and develop an unbearable urge to drop test acid on it. You can help me. There is only one way: Can you cut your coin in half so I can see that it really is gold thruought?:biggrin: Thanks in advance.:clap2:
Yeah! Sure!! I'm off to the store in search of a new hacksaw blade. But wait! I'm not sure you're not an android! Please section your brain so I can be sure there are no positronic elements there. THANKS! I know you will understand :36_3_12:

mamboni | 07-22-2009 08:14 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1830897) There is a government issued vaccine for that.
Thanks for having a sense of humor!:wavey:

Bob | 07-22-2009 08:14 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic I think what we are really waiting for is an assay result. An assay result that can be verified would go a long way. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1830896) I should be getting the unfired half back tomorrow, I can scan it but just can't think of a way to get the variation in color to show in the scan, since I would have to turn the coin vertically. I'll try it and see how it turns out. Of course, if it does turn out well, people will just say that I Photoshopped it. Same thing they will say if I post an assay certificate. Or, they'll just say that the assay cert was from some other piece.

Ag_man | 07-22-2009 08:15 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1830886) TomD: Because of these Gold Philharmonic threads, I now suffer from a debilitating neurosis known as Aurophilharmonicafakocoinophobia:36_1_25:. Whenever I see a Gold Philharmonic coin, I become short of breath and develop an unbearable urge to drop test acid on it. You can help me. There is only one way: Can you cut your coin in half so I can see that it really is gold thruought?:biggrin: Thanks in advance.:clap2:
Physician, heal thyself!

Willie Peter | 07-22-2009 08:16 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1830900) Yeah! Sure!! I'm off to the store in search of a new hacksaw blade. But wait! I'm not sure you're not an android! Please section your brain so I can be sure there are no positronic elements there. THANKS! I know you will understand :36_3_12:
Don't buy it....it could be the latest Mamboni-Android Bot unit from Rigel-12, and if you get too close.....http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-alien003.gif

TheSkeptic | 07-22-2009 08:17 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1830917) I think what we are really waiting for is an assay result. An assay result that can be verified would go a long way.
I agree. So what steps can I take to make sure that the assay result is as far beyond reproach as possible? I don't want to pay out the ass for a full assay and then have a bunch of nitpicking about the results. My primary concern is that people will just say that it is not the same coin.

Bob | 07-22-2009 08:20 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Well, honestly, the only way would probably be to have it sent to someone here who we all trust. Have that person document and send it in. I've personally never done an assay, but I want to know the amount of the sample, and the % content of each element. Additionally, I want to know it's from the coin that has been documented but I don't know how to do that except involving a third party. Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1830921) I agree. So what steps can I take to make sure that the assay result is as far beyond reproach as possible? I don't want to pay out the ass for a full assay and then have a bunch of nitpicking about the results. My primary concern is that people will just say that it is not the same coin.

TheSkeptic | 07-22-2009 08:24 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (Post 1830924) Additionally, I want to know it's from the coin that has been documented but I don't know how to do that except involving a third party.
Me either.

AgAuGal | 07-22-2009 08:56 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1830897) There is a government issued vaccine for that.
mamboni has volunteered to take the new vaccine before it is forced on other GIMers :clap2::clap2:

mamboni | 07-22-2009 09:18 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by AgAuGal (Post 1830989) mamboni has volunteered to take the new vaccine before it is forced on other GIMers :clap2::clap2:
Don't be silly: I'm an android dammit!!!!:bear_rolleyes:

AgAuGal | 07-22-2009 11:25 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1831029) Don't be silly: I'm an android dammit!!!!:bear_rolleyes:
vee hav vays comrade mamboni robotee :36_1_25:

ShortJohnSilver | 07-24-2009 08:13 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1831029) Don't be silly: I'm an android dammit!!!!:bear_rolleyes:
(To the tune of "Mr. Roboto") ... Domo macaroni Mr. Mamboni ....

mamboni | 07-24-2009 10:06 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic So.......what's the verdict on TheSkeptic's coin? Jeez, will we get an answer before 2012?

TheSkeptic | 07-24-2009 10:57 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic I am taking a break for a few days, couple of people pissed me off too much and I wanted a break. (Not talking about you - I thought your posts were very helpful) Half the posts in that thread come from people making points that have been exhaustively addressed, or asking questions that have already been thoroughly answered - multiple times. Part of me just wants to give up. Either way, there are people looking into this right now.

TomD | 07-24-2009 11:11 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1834675) (Not talking about you - I thought your posts were very helpful)
Mamboni??? hahahahaha, cough, choke, ha, choke, spit, choke, oh god, cough, choke, help, hahahaha, choke, puke!! Stop it, you're killing me

mamboni | 07-24-2009 11:16 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1834692) Mamboni??? hahahahaha, cough, choke, ha, choke, spit, choke, oh god, cough, choke, help, hahahaha, choke, puke!! Stop it, you're killing me
Hey man, that's my line!:beer:

Willie Peter | 07-24-2009 11:52 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by mamboni (Post 1834637) So.......what's the verdict on TheSkeptic's coin? Jeez, will we get an answer before 2012?
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing011.gif http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing024.gif http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing021.gif

mamboni | 07-25-2009 12:17 AM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Peter (Post 1834748) http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing011.gif http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing024.gif http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing021.gif
Let me understand this. Maybe I'm a little f=cked up. But I'm funny how? Funny like a clown? I amuse you? I'm here to f=cking amuse you? What do you mean, funny? How am I funny?

Metalophile | 07-25-2009 03:30 AM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Skeptic, I am an analytical chemist, and a good chunk of my job is reviewing analytical results, although most of my experience is in chemical residues in foods. (small molecule organic analysis, not metals) I am not very familiar with precious metals assay methods, but I will say that an assay result without a method citation isn't worth much. All analytical methods are not created equal. So if you do post your assay results, I suggest that you will also want to get the laboratory to cite the analytical method, model #rs of instruments used, any certifications that the laboratory holds, and, if possible a copy of the analytical package, including all raw data, sample preparation procedures, etc. If you want, you can either post all of the above or e-mail to me, and I'll give my opinion as to the soundness of the data. I work for a gubmint regulatory agency, and when we get an analytical result, we are usually required to do a second check analysis before the agency will take any action on a violative sample. There are many errors which can be made in chemical analysis, so a review of the data or a confirmatory analysis would strengthen your case that this phil is counterfeit. Also, if you do a video with an acid spot test, it would be useful to run some known controls in the same video - a known .999 gold sample - a known 22k sample, and a known 18k sample at least. Make sure the bottle of acid is in the video and doesn't leave the frame (lest someone accuse you of a switcheroo job). Also, it would be useful if you post the manufacturer and exact name of the acid test solution you use. The manufacturer may have literature on the proper use and interpretation of their product.

Gknowmx | 07-25-2009 07:41 AM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalophile (Post 1834894) Skeptic, I am an analytical chemist, and a good chunk of my job is reviewing analytical results, although most of my experience is in chemical residues in foods. (small molecule organic analysis, not metals) I am not very familiar with precious metals assay methods, but I will say that an assay result without a method citation isn't worth much. All analytical methods are not created equal. So if you do post your assay results, I suggest that you will also want to get the laboratory to cite the analytical method, model #rs of instruments used, any certifications that the laboratory holds, and, if possible a copy of the analytical package, including all raw data, sample preparation procedures, etc. If you want, you can either post all of the above or e-mail to me, and I'll give my opinion as to the soundness of the data. I work for a gubmint regulatory agency, and when we get an analytical result, we are usually required to do a second check analysis before the agency will take any action on a violative sample. There are many errors which can be made in chemical analysis, so a review of the data or a confirmatory analysis would strengthen your case that this phil is counterfeit. Also, if you do a video with an acid spot test, it would be useful to run some known controls in the same video - a known .999 gold sample - a known 22k sample, and a known 18k sample at least. Make sure the bottle of acid is in the video and doesn't leave the frame (lest someone accuse you of a switcheroo job). Also, it would be useful if you post the manufacturer and exact name of the acid test solution you use. The manufacturer may have literature on the proper use and interpretation of their product.
Thanks for weighing in here. TheSkeptic has made he acid test the foundation of his claim. He contends that the acid doesn't lie. In a perfect world, or a fume hood in an analytical chemistry lab, this may be true. But, in the mall? A lot can go wrong, fast. Are there multiple employees using this acid? Are they recycling it? Are they contaminating it? Do they use a dropper to dispense the acid by touching the sample, or stirring the sample and then putting the dropper back in the stock acid? Is the acid being diluted otherwise? Is it being dispensed from its original stock container or has it been dispensed into something else? How often is this acid replaced? (How is the waste acid disposed of?) I spent many years as a bench scientist making solutions. The last thing I ever wanted to believe is that one of my trusted stocks was bad. The amount of time and resources running control assays was a pain, but it has to be done. Time to start with controls.

j-son | 09-25-2009 10:42 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic anyone hear about this one yet? http://www.apmex.com/Product/55736/2...ic_Oct_16.aspx

BoatingAccident | 09-25-2009 11:50 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by j-son (Post 1940779) anyone hear about this one yet? http://www.apmex.com/Product/55736/2...ic_Oct_16.aspx
I volunteer to cut that coin in half and verify it's authenticity.. I have a hacksaw ready. If I don't get this job, it's a damn shame more honest folk get pushed out. I'd do a good job.

EireGoBragh | 09-26-2009 03:54 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by j-son (Post 1940779) anyone hear about this one yet? http://www.apmex.com/Product/55736/2...ic_Oct_16.aspx
That'll be one hell of a coin, seems like it'd be larger than 37mm in diameter though, at 20 ounces, it'll have to be REALLY thick

TomD | 09-26-2009 04:01 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by EireGoBragh (Post 1941570) That'll be one hell of a coin, seems like it'd be larger than 37mm in diameter though, at 20 ounces, it'll have to be REALLY thick
Heh, yeah. It would have to be 34.8mm or about 1.4 inches thick. You would need 1 storage tube per coin.

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- - Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=393253)

EireGoBragh | 09-26-2009 04:07 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD (Post 1941577) Heh, yeah. It would have to be 34.8mm or about 1.4 inches thick. You would need 1 storage tube per coin.
Well that's what I was thinking Tom, if a regular 1 Oz Gold Phil is 37mm in diameter, this one will have to be about 40mm +/- thick, that's a little over 1 1/2 inches thick, I'm thinking that's a typo on the APMEX site

harper | 09-26-2009 04:21 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic thanks skeptic, I doubt a scan would help too much, but a camera with a macro lens, or a magnifying glass to simulate a macro, may work for a close up shot of the cut edge. the information that I am interested in, and tell me if you have already spoken of it... is whether there was a noticeable difference on the obverse or reverse, compared to a good coin. that info would be the real help for buyers trying to avoid these.

TomD | 09-26-2009 04:43 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by harper (Post 1941601) thanks skeptic, I doubt a scan would help too much, but a camera with a macro lens, or a magnifying glass to simulate a macro, may work for a close up shot of the cut edge. the information that I am interested in, and tell me if you have already spoken of it... is whether there was a noticeable difference on the obverse or reverse, compared to a good coin. that info would be the real help for buyers trying to avoid these.
Oh God, Oh God!!! Please don't resurrect that!!:Surrender::452::452::452: Notice that this thread is resurrected and is a couple of months old. The original subject was hashed out over months with literally thousands of posts claiming, counterclaiming, ab absurdum. And now we have GIM "bitches" all over the place. The original thread ended with the major contestants all claiming victory and staggering away in exhaustion. The "coin" in question is gone and everyone sincerely wishes the argument likewise. If you have a few hours to read, knock yourself out http://goldismoney.info/forums/showt...t=philharmonic

AGRO | 09-26-2009 04:51 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Sorry off topic but, TomD, did you see this thread on Britannia's? It is in the wrong forum THANX

Master_Ho | 09-26-2009 08:42 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic (Post 1834675) Part of me just wants to give up.
Hence my long vacation from this place!!! *lol* And I am staying out of this thread - but I will say this - of all the people I know from GIM - there is none I trust more than Tom D! We've talked many times and at one point almost had an ounce of gold or two traveling by mail without any worries! I have no doubt there might be fakes out there - but I also trust his measurements! Cheers!

OutlawJoseyWalesJr | 09-26-2009 08:47 PM
Re: Characteristics of a real gold Philharmonic The caliper and the digital scale are your best friends when it comes to testing gold and silver in my opinion.

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