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- Gold - Silver - Coins - Numismatics (http://goldismoney.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=51)
- - True Value (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=19048)

rerichards | 03-08-2005 07:29 PM
True Value I have a dealer pushing the investment in numismatics. Also, as to not cloud the picture, eliminate confiscation as an issue. Should the market crash, and the value of the dollar is the value of the paper upon which it is printed, to me it does not seem to matter that one owned bullion or numismatics. I do not see where rarity or scarcity would matter in such a market. I like the thought of own rare coins, their potential upside in comparison to bullion, and being able to hand them down to posterity. But what advantage would a numismatic have over bullion in a crash? (Remember, eliminate confiscation as an issue).

hoarder | 03-08-2005 07:47 PM
Re: True Value rerichards, I think you answered your own question. Things that are "pretty" and "rare" do well when times are good and people have lots of wealth to squander on sentimentality. I think you'll find that few here anticipate such conditions in the near future nor prefer numismatics over intrinsic value. Welcome to GIM.

Sequoia | 03-08-2005 08:35 PM
Re: True Value Repeat after me, "Confiscation is not an issue!" "Confiscation is not an issue!" "Confiscation is not an issue!" If The US Govt. does try to confiscate gold, you just don't have it anymore. "I sold it to some guy after the price went down, who offered me what I paid for it. Buy silver first. Then you do not have to worry about confiscation at all. It is an industrial commodity.

rerichards | 03-08-2005 09:04 PM
Re: True Value Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarder rerichards, I think you answered your own question. Things that are "pretty" and "rare" do well when times are good and people have lots of wealth to squander on sentimentality.
So are you saying that in such a condition [market crash], it is your opionion numismatics have no advantage over bullion?

rerichards | 03-08-2005 09:07 PM
Re: True Value The point is, I am not that worried about confiscation. I am just trying to get the advantages of bullion over numismatics, and numismatics over bullion when there is a market crash (removing confiscation as a possibility).

Infidel | 03-08-2005 09:29 PM
Re: True Value There is not going to be confiscation. Repeat after Sequoia, "Confiscation is not an issue!" "Confiscation is not an issue!" "Confiscation is not an issue!"

Bullionaire | 03-08-2005 09:42 PM
Re: True Value Put me in the "No confiscation camp"...if the shtf the gubberment is going to have their hands full........they are not going to send out agents with metal detectors nationwide.....they are not going to send stealth agents out in the middle of the nite sifting thru grannies dresser for her "old gold upper plate"....this is not Nazi Germany circa 1938.....get a grip......

Silverity | 03-09-2005 04:20 AM
Re: True Value They may not come come knocking at your door, but what happens when you want to cash in some of your silver? Silverity

Infidel | 03-09-2005 04:48 AM
Re: True Value you find some genuinely upset with the state of affair trades people and befriend them, educate them, and then trade with them for goods and services they provide for you or others. underground economy still functioned during stalin era, during hitler era, come on now. there will be a lot of genuinely upset people in any event of such restrictions coming ot you.

hoarder | 03-09-2005 07:36 AM
Re: True Value Quote:
Originally Posted by rerichards So are you saying that in such a condition [market crash], it is your opionion numismatics have no advantage over bullion?
In such a condition, what will matter is how many ounces you have, not how old or pretty those ounces are. Think of numismatics as art, antiques and collectibles. Do you think these will be in great demand when everyone is starving and the Chinese are landing on our shores to take our country?

agnut | 03-09-2005 05:07 PM
Re: True Value Quote:
Originally Posted by rerichards I have a dealer pushing the investment in numismatics. Also, as to not cloud the picture, eliminate confiscation as an issue. Should the market crash, and the value of the dollar is the value of the paper upon which it is printed, to me it does not seem to matter that one owned bullion or numismatics. I do not see where rarity or scarcity would matter in such a market. I like the thought of own rare coins, their potential upside in comparison to bullion, and being able to hand them down to posterity. But what advantage would a numismatic have over bullion in a crash? (Remember, eliminate confiscation as an issue).
Hi rerichards. As a past coin collector I will be happy to give my biased (two asses are better than one) opinion. Numismatics can be approached from more than one angle. You could collect high grade coins and work to obtain complete sets. I did this for several years. By the way, while you are in the rather lengthy process of finding these coins, you may be told that a complete set is more valuable that the prices of the individual coins. Well, DON�T BELIEVE IT ! At the end of completing several sets, I was told a complete turnaround story by several dealers. Only two dealers have been honest with me through the years and they are still friends. Next we move to coin grading; another boondoggle. Say you have found a nice coin which is in a PCGS holder and carries the grade of a MS 66. Now, a MS70 is the highest grade. So a MS 66 would be a nice coin to own , right ? Not necessarily. First you must know the population of that coin and the rate of change of population. No sense in having a Roosevelt dime if there are thousands more out there in the same condition. In fact, some coins are so plentiful that there are rolls of them that are not worth the expense of having graded and put in a holder. The last time I checked, it cost $15 to $20 to have a coin graded. Continuing coin grading, there is the additional aspect of old collections coming out of grandpa�s estates and being graded and thereby decreasing the particular coin�s rarity. And rarity has a lot to do with price. Another point to consider is that dealers and collectors will sometimes submit a coin several times in hopes of receiving a higher grade. Sometimes the difference in price can jump thousands of dollars with a one point move up in grade. Are you buying one of these coins ? The most recently I attended a large coin show, I got the distinct impression that there were a lot of these coins being offered. There are a lot of MS65 coins lurking in MS66 holders, at least in my opinion. An old saying is, �Buy the coin, not the plastic.� And you might want to keep in mind that a coin you buy in a nice graded holder may change after you have it for a while. Kinda like when you are drunk at a bar at last call. You eye an unattached human (hopefully) and make your move. The next morning you roll over with a humongous headache which is about to be overshadowed by the realization that what is only inches away has you firmly in its grip. And it says, �Do you still love me, pookie ?� The disadvantage of the coin as opposed to the last call bimbo is that with the coin, you will have to find a greater fool to take it off your hands. It is no coincidence that real estate and the stock markets come to mind here. The broker, the dealer and the bartender all have the common traits of potential conflict of interest and expect a commission for their services. Why did I say that a coin may change after you have it for a while. What you may not be aware of is that many coins in graded holders have been �dipped�, sometimes several times. This is a chemical bath that hopefully enhances that appearance of the coin and therefore may garner a higher grade assignation. But each time the coin is dipped, some original luster is lost. And if improperly dipped, the coin may age in its plastic holder like �The Picture Of Dorian Grey�. I have had it happen to me more than once. And watching a multi thousand dollar coin self destruct in a sealed plastic holder is something I could only wish on my worst enema. Like most politicians or my 7th grade gym coach. If you must collect coins, do so at lower grade and melt value. Stay away from non silver coins and graded coins. In other words, collect coins by the bag and ounce. It may not be as much fun (if you are a masochist) but will provide a much better chance to win in the long haul. Personally I like Mercury dimes and Walker half dollars. I collect the best condition coins as long as I am still paying around silver melt price or scrap 90% coin prices. That is my challenge and it doesn�t cost me hardly anything. And someday I hope to have some beautiful coins that didn�t cost me more that their scrap price. Might be hard to let them go, though. I have some Mercury dimes that are in brilliant mint condition that I got at scrap prices. I can�t help but feel that they will be more desirable than worn out ones some day. You should be aware that you will someday sell in some logical order and, for example, my silver Mercury mint dimes will be the last to go. Even the Roosevelt silver dimes before 1965 could be collected, but since FDR treated the American people like crap in his immoral 1930s gold and silver confiscation I don�t want his face around my house. Sorry, I�m postjudiced . That�s a past tense of prejudiced and a whole lot more valid. A little real life example may help so here goes. Say I have a group of PCGS graded Morgan and Peace dollars. They are in MS63 and MS64. They will sell for an average of say $40 each on eBay. And they are not rare but common dates and I expect them to go nowhere for the foreseeable future. I paid about $23 for them about 8 years ago. Sounds like a nice profit so I sell them and I buy some 90% silver coins on eBay auctions at around melt. The auction process can be rewarding if you are patient and know what you are doing. So what have you accomplished here by selling graded coins and buying raw silver coins at melt prices ? I got off an elevator that I had judged to be at its top floor and then got on another elevator which I again judged was going up several more levels. If you believe that we are headed for a monetary crisis and gold and silver will be necessary, you will have dramatically increased your number of ounces of precious metals and decreased (jettisoned) your number of pounds of plastic. Thus becoming a lean, mean financial machine. If we aren�t heading for pretty times, why have pretty things ? In other words, they should have already been traded in for practical things needed in the future. This is just my opinion and you will have to look at what you have and decide if you agree. And while I am thinking of this, why not sell my raw, ungraded, coins also ? I would get almost as much as my graded coins and wouldn�t have to spend $15 to $20 per coin to have them graded. I just found a late 1800s Morgan dollar which I bought for $15 about 8 years ago. It is in a brilliant uncirculated condition, about MS 63 or 64 and would sell for around $40 if in a PCGS holder. Raw I would get around $30. So say I have sold it and have $30 in my hot little hands. I buy $30 worth of silver 90% coins. I pay about 5X face value, or 50 cents each. That is about 60 silver dimes. And say the market later goes into a crash mode. If silver is $50 per ounce, my dime is worth about $3.57 and if silver goes to $100, my dime is worth about $7.14 and so on. The Morgan dollar is worth about $36 in silver at a $50 spot price while the 60 silver dimes are worth a cumulative $214.00 in silver. You have increased your purchasing power almost 6 times ($214 divided by $36 equals 5.94 times) . And silver dimes are more easily tradable than silver dollars. Some things to think about (and maybe act upon) anyway while we are waiting for the Silverstreak to pull out of the station. What do they say ? A mind is a terrible thing to waste. And a waist is a terrible thing to mind (thought I�d throw that in for us dieters). Rare coin collecting often has ego attached and thus bragging rights. And these bragging rights can be extremely expensive. The point I am trying to make is that an ego can motivate one to make all sorts of costly mistakes and therefore can be the most terrible to mind. And this time in history is not the time for money losing hobbies. Moneymaking and money saving hobbies are what I am looking for now. Do not expect bragging rights if you are doing the most intelligent thing possible. Wisdom in action is a solitary, humbling, unexciting event and best kept to oneself. The exception is here on the GIM forum where we have the luxury of anonymously sharing our best thoughts and experiences with each other. It is a thing of beauty not to be taken for granted or abused. JMHO Best wishes, Agnut The following is my new standard boilerplate which will explain why I seem to talk in circles. So future smorgasbord silver musings will contain some entrees that may become fast exits if consumed indiscriminately. P.S. I hereby am reserving the right to use any of the writings in my emails and elsewhere since I have no idea when I will run out of things to say and will have to mine the tailings of my past efforts. Pretty sad, huh ?

Maple Leaf Steve | 03-09-2005 05:40 PM
Re: True Value Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullionaire Put me in the "No confiscation camp"...if the shtf the gubberment is going to have their hands full........they are not going to send out agents with metal detectors nationwide.....they are not going to send stealth agents out in the middle of the nite sifting thru grannies dresser for her "old gold upper plate"....this is not Nazi Germany circa 1938.....get a grip......
LOL HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! :haha: Within 10 years when this country has a financial meltdown and the dollar is no longer the world's reserve currency (the Euro is) The last thing on anybodies mind is going to be the numismatic value of a 1880s MS 65 Silver Dollar. Your 1880s Silver Dollar will then be worth only the bullion price! MLS

Ponce Cuba | 03-09-2005 06:04 PM
Re: True Value Quote:
Originally Posted by rerichards So are you saying that in such a condition [market crash], it is your opionion numismatics have no advantage over bullion?
I was told in 1980 when I sold my one oz rounds of .999 silver bullions that they were considered to be the same as numismatics and therefore non taxable. So, the advantage to owning numismatics over bullion is that the government wont steal 7, 10, 12% or what ever of your money.

hoarder | 03-09-2005 06:48 PM
Re: True Value Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponce Cuba I was told in 1980 when I sold my one oz rounds of .999 silver bullions that they were considered to be the same as numismatics and therefore non taxable.
By whom?? I would be careful about claiming you paid no taxes on it until you know this is true.

AuNuggets | 03-10-2005 11:11 AM
Re: True Value Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponce Cuba So, the advantage to owning numismatics over bullion is that the government wont steal 7, 10, 12% or what ever of your money.
Maybe, but the DISADVANTAGE of those same "numismatics" is that the dealer is often gouging you up front with 25 to 50 percent or more profit margins (speaking of "collectibles" as opposed to the bullion). Numismatics are just another cog in the collectibles racket, with nothing more than arbitrary valuations and, for the most part, little to no rarity involved. Unless you truly enjoy the numismatic, historic, and "art" side of collecting, and have a good working knowledge of the related markets, you are leaving yourself open for some serious losses. There is good reason most dealers hype and promote the numismatic end of things..... that's where the highest profit margins are (and the highest costs/losses for the buyer). On average, you are looking at 1-5% spreads between buy and sell prices on bullion, and upward of 25-50% or more on numismatics. "Values" are detemined on purely arbitrary factors with collector coins, and regardless of what you are told about "investing" in numismatics, the ultimate end-user will always be the collector, not the dealer or investor. Factor in the number of available coins to the actual number of collectors wanting or needing a particular coin for their collection, and it soon becomes apparent just how arbitrary values can be. "Plastic" (or slabbed coins) is another money-making scam perpetrated on the unknowledgable by the grading services. $20 for a quick opinion and a pretty plastic holder ???? As was stated earlier, buy the coin....not the plastic. Or better by far, buy the bullion....not the numismatics. By the way, great post agnut. You've obviously been around the block a few times. :applause_

The Argent Dragon | 03-10-2005 11:54 AM
Re: True Value Quote:
Originally Posted by rerichards I have a dealer pushing the investment in numismatics. Also, as to not cloud the picture, eliminate confiscation as an issue........
I'm assuming in "gold" coins ??? There's a mystery behind gold coins in numismatics.......true "rarity" is a guess at best. There is some reasonable evidence to suggest very large hoards of U.S. gold coins in Europe which has been locked away since 1933. Dealers mostly look after their own interests first which means the numismatic coins will make him more $$$. Stick to what you like and you'll never be disappointed. Don't let anyone talk you into something that is discomfortable. I collect silver bullion and rare morgan dollars. The morgans are what I like regardless of what the market does. :wink:

AuNuggets | 03-10-2005 11:58 AM
Re: True Value Following is a re-post of an article I did a few years back on Eagle-Ranch concerning numismatics (and the one that got me banned from USAG - imagine that ! Those people just can't handle the truth, especially when it dips into their profits...... :aetsch: ) ----------------------------- More Thoughts on Rare Coins AuNuggets Having been "deeply involved" in the rare coin markets during the 1970s through much of the 80s and 90s, I can't help but feel a certain apprension toward mentions of jumping back into such an esoteric field with thoughts toward "investment". Without any intentions of being a "spoiler", I'm sure there are those of you who know all too well where this is going. To mention the possibilities of rare coins, TRULY RARE COINS holding out any possibilities of being a "Double Profit Play" is to ignore the very basis and fabric of how the rare coin markets work. A truly rare coin is first going to sell (trade) at multiples of it's gold or silver content. To consider such an "investment" on the basis of present or potential bullion value, absent a very considerable increase in bullion prices, would be mere folly at best. There were, however, days when �common� gold and silver coins were regularly sold off to the local pawn shops and refineries for their precious metals content. Few (very few) truly �rare� coins ever did or ever will fall into such a category. So considering true rare coins as any kind of �play� on the basis of precious metal content in relation to collector value (and cost) could well lead those taking such unwise advice down the fast lane to huge $ losses. Of course one exception is the purchase and trading use of "near-bullion" common U.S. gold pieces, the $20 Liberties & St. Gaudens, higher circulated grade $10 Liberties, etc. bought for the "premium play" to trade back into bullion as the premiums rise. Another important aspect of the rare coin market is the fact that the vast majority of �slabbed� or �certified� rare coins simply ARE NOT RARE. Rather, they are readily available examples of their particular type. A good example in point is the Morgan Silver Dollar in certified MS (Mint State) 65 grades or "commercial uncirculated" common gold pieces as �type� examples. Of course there are those truly �rare� dates in higher grades of preservation, but again, the vast majority of these coins in slabbed or certified grades are relatively very common. Ask yourself before �investing� in rare coins�� What exactly is it I am investing in here ? Rare coins are nothing more than collectables, with the end user being THE COLLECTOR, not the investor or speculator looking to turn such items for the simple profit play involved. If you�re serious about rare coins as an investment, the best thing you can do first is to become a collector�.. to learn all you can about the different designs and series, the relative rarities involved between design types and individual dates�.. to gain the knowledge FIRST, and the coins later. Being as it is, a very esoteric field of collectables, rare coins can be, have been, and will be both a manipulated market and a very good opportunity for the less than ethical, slabs or no slabs. Grading standards vary from dealer to dealer, certification service to certification service, and even from year to year or decade to decade throughout the entire hobby. Entering such an �investment� field without the necessary knowledge or with a �trust me� attitude from any supplier without having some basic knowledge of your own is a sucker�s bet at best. Do �rare coins� ever appreciate in value ? Surely the truly RARE ones often do, but contrary to what you may read in the financial investment studies through the years, you have to remember that those studies are usually based on a very specific grouping of individual coins that may have been chosen before, during, or after the fact. Those studies are often tainted in favor of the desired results just as if you were to make a list of the 10 or 20 best performing stocks over the past year to show what your �portfolio� did over that period. As a group, certified or slabbed coins have performed far less impressively than many will have you believe. Picking and choosing individual truly rare pieces may be another matter, but only if you know what you are doing. And remember, you are competing with those who actually deal in rare coins or numismatics for a living. By the time you make an initial purchase, the �profits� have already been taken, and that may well include a good portion of your �future profits� in the way of high dealer commissions on the deal. While gold now stands approximately 68 percent below it�s all time high of +- $850 per troy ounce in January of 1980, the overall coin market looks much more bleak, with some issues now commanding less than 10 percent of their all time highs achieved in 1989. The rare coin market is simply a much more volatile market, a much thinner and esoteric market than gold and silver, and much more difficult to understand from the standpoints of market movement, collector movement, etc. Take for example grading standards. Within each and every individual coin series and type, there are 70 individual grades possible for each coin under the current Sheldon Grading Standard, and even professional dealers have a hard time agreeing on a grade since even they will tell you that grading is �an art, and not a science�. So here you have another open door for abuse where valuations are concerned. Just a quick mention of collectors of the now popular State Quarters series. Such collectors at that level are anything but �rare coin� collectors or investors, although such a collection may eventually open doors to more serious collecting endeavors later on. These State Quarters are being made in the multi-millions to billions, and are not and will never be �rare�. They are saved by the mint bag and rolls in uncirculated condition, not to mention all of those taken from circulation to fill the book store coin albums and cards. You simply cannot make something so common a �rare coin�. To a lesser degree, the same holds true for many of this countries older coins, whether certified or �raw� as they are commonly called. Numismatics has come a very long way in the 30+ years I have been involved in the hobby, but to enter such a field for purely investment purposes could well leave a very bad taste in one�s mouth where this field of investing is concerned. I�ve seen it happen through problems of �overgrading�, unreasonable and inflated valuations, just as unreasonable expectations as an investment medium, and each and every time because of a simple lack of knowledge of the �product�, and in the end, a simple misunderstanding that �rare coins� ultimately find a home with the collector, not necessarily with the investor. When valuations inflate beyond the means of the true �base� of the hobby (the collector), then you have entered into what amounts to just another �greater fool� field of investment. Just a few thoughts��..

The Argent Dragon | 03-10-2005 12:10 PM
Re: True Value Brother, can you spare a $1.3 million dime? -BSun The 1894 coin sold at auction held here By Carl Schoettler Baltimore Sun Staff March 9, 2005 http://www.swissamerica.com/news/art...0503100813.jpg It's just a tiny sliver of silver. Its face value wouldn't buy you a candy bar or a phone call. So what makes this one thin, tarnished Liberty Head dime, minted in San Francisco in 1894 and sold at auction in Baltimore on Monday, worth $1,322,500? Well, only 24 were minted, only nine are known to still exist - and collectors love it. -Source : Swiss America website

Enlightened | 03-10-2005 12:31 PM
Re: True Value THAT just proves what little value FRN's hold!!! but I'd rather trade mine for a larger qty of silver.:beer: :haha:

SilverStreak | 03-10-2005 11:52 PM
Re: True Value Really enjoyed posts #11 by Agnut and the repost by AuNuggets --we think alike and history has proven what you said to be correct --- Collector coins are all in the eye of the beholder

agnut | 03-11-2005 01:15 AM
Re: True Value Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverStreak Really enjoyed posts #11 by Agnut and the repost by AuNuggets --we think alike and history has proven what you said to be correct --- Collector coins are all in the eye of the beholder
Hi Silverstreak. I wrote this earlier today and wasn't going to post it because it seemed too slobberingly sentimental but you seemed to be asking for it so... =============================================== Thanks AuNuggets for that blast from the past. Very well written. What you wrote is still as true today and will be in the future. My two coin dealer friends both warn new clients that coin collecting is not to be thought of as a money making enterprise but as a hobby only. They are a distinct minority in the coin dealer population. Today there are several coin grading services; PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and some newcomers. Coins of the same grade but in different grading service plastic holders are valued differently. There is the grey sheet , the blue sheet and who knows what else out there since I was an active collector. These sheets list the prices of various coins by grading service and condition. And NONE of these guarantee what a dealer will pay the coin seller. Like a used car dealer will offer a virgin when selling a car, he will also perceive a whore when buying back the same car. You get the picture. A one way street where you are run over no matter where you try to position yourself. I can remember buying rare coins at $1700 and being offered only $1100 later for the same coins. And some of these, there was a population of four or five and none finer. This price disparity was not exceptional but what I commonly encountered. When buying, I was told that the market was hot and when selling I was told that the market was cold. The spread is tremendous and should be prominently related to every potential coin collector as a precaution. But if this were done, where would the buyers for all the rare coins come from ? Well, we would have collectors and few speculators and prices would settle down to reality. Whether in coins or stocks or real estate, too many speculators always stir things to a frenzy where it is hard to tell the substance from the froth. All potential coin collectors (and this is true for many types of collectibles) should at the outset realize that the rare coin they are looking at buying for say, $1700, was originally in the past only valued at its face value which could be as low as a half cent. And the ones that survived through all the years are only worth what people are willing to pay for it. Is this the greater fool theory in practice ? And in a crash, rare coins or other collectibles will be the last thing the population will be looking to acquire. I would expect it to be an extreme buyer�s market. So if you are crazy about rare coins or other collectibles and are able to set aside some of your wealth for bargain hunting in a crash, I wish you the best of luck. It�s just that in such a scenario, I would be focused upon security for my loved ones and not much else. Several years ago I examined my ego and realized that if it were left without control or understanding that I would be subject to all the media propaganda designed to extract my labors (wealth) to their benefit and my detriment. I looked at the swath I had cut in my past and realized that the many things I acquired were not necessary or practical for that matter. And they all took more than they gave. Let me give an example which all red blooded American males will understand. Be forewarned; it�s not pretty. In 1977 I had a auto repair business which was doing well. I saw a Ferrari in a classic car dealership. It was a red 246 GTS, a mid engine with a targa top. I rationalized it as a good investment. Being a mechanic, I appreciated the v6 cylinder motor mounted behind my head. It had 4 overhead cams and 6 Weber carburetors. There was no radio but the engine would sing as no human could. It would do 150 miles per hour but I would only take it to 125 so as to not hurt it. The price was $23,000 and I took a loan for $15,000. I drove it for 6 months before a wrist pin bushing went out. I had it hauled down to the local Ferrari dealer where they disassembled the engine and gave me a quote to fix it. I gave them the go ahead and some months later, they had not moved ahead one iota. In frustration I went to the dealer in order to take my car home. They said the current bill against it was $1,000 and I was prepared to pay it in cash. They offered me $12, 000 for the car as it stood. However, they did not want to release the car. I finally had to threaten them with calling one of my customers, a T.V. news investigative reporter. They relented and let me pay the bill and take my car. There was a wrecker ready while this verbal exchange went on. I stored the car at a friend�s garage and advertised it for sale as is. One person came by and said that this was the same Ferrari that the dealership had offered to him for $28,000 and was told that it would be available as soon as the former owner released the title. Soon thereafter I sold the car for $18,000 in a basket which was $6,000 more than the dealer had offered me. So what happened here ? It was the old squeeze play, a ploy used through the ages. The old squeeze play needs a squeezer, someone that is, shall we say, morally challenged. And a squeezee, someone with more money or assets than good sense. And it would grease the skids if this squeezee was not intimately acquainted with his own ego. So now the stage is set for the plucking (did I spell that right ?). In the above example, the squeesee (me) was in a time constraint situation where the monthly payments and insurance on a car that could not be driven and enjoyed weighed heavily. After all, what is the sense in owning a Ferrari if I could not be seen driving it ? See the ego oozing out here ? Hey, I told you it could get ugly. While I was going through this, I was dating my future exwife. And after selling the Ferrari I was not done paying as it took me many years to discover. For, you see, years later when I was having a difficult time in my finances, my wife would say disdainfully to me, �When I married you, I thought you were bucks up�. It didn�t connect until I had divorced her that she had been referring to the Ferrari and had gotten the impression that I was rich. When I was really just a car nut who didn�t know his ego. And if you think the Ferrari lesson was expensive, it can�t hold a candle to what it can cost to have the curvaceous lines of a beautiful filly in ones stable. And the mountain drives in the Ferrari were more rewarding and lasting than the other, if you get my 4 wheel drift. So now I am poorer but wiser. Isn�t that the way it is supposed to be for someone who learns only from their own mistakes ? Getting back to the coin collecting, it might be revealing to think of coin collecting (or any other collecting) as filling a hole that should not be there in the first place. That hole is there because it is perceived as less painful to fall into than to fill. Understand, I am not speaking of all collecting. Just the type in which the collector needs to find a self validation. Because of my upbringing, I have been there throughout my life. It is only in the last few years that I have taken the time to reflect on this and change. At least I can help my children understand their options and to examine them before plunging in. A shame that this isn�t taught in schools. Ever wonder why the responsibilities of marriage and parenting are not taught in school ? Ever wonder why the pitfalls of credit and being in debt are not taught in school ? As I look back upon the decades of mistakes, I can�t help but wonder if I had avoided them and instead compounded my life�s efforts, I would have been richer in so many ways. It was my way of dealing with the world and I have to accept that that was the price which had to be paid for that path. Very expensive but the excitement compensated somewhat. If you have a twisted sister side, go to a coin show and tell a dealer (the type that looks like a former used car salesman) that you are interested in gold or silver coins. Let him show you some and ask the price. Then ask what he has that is close to the spot price of gold or silver. Don�t expect much as there isn�t much profit spread in this type of coin. Watch the dealer�s shoulders droop and his eyes glaze over as he realizes what you are not. Not the payment for his booth rental at this coin show or not his next mortgage payment or not his next payment on his Jaguar or not his next trip to Hawaii. If you feel a sense of pressure decreasing on a body part, just realize that is like a shark letting go when he concludes that you are not lunch. However, you may find a dealer somewhere at the show who is primarily buying gold and silver for melt prices. I always meant to go and talk to such buyers and see what they would sell me gold and silver for. I suspected that they would be reluctant to quote a price to me as they had buyers willing to pay higher prices than they would want others to know. I also figured they were paying below spot prices, maybe way below if they could get away with it. I remember a huge coin show where the gold prices changed dramatically and it was announced over the loudspeakers and all the dealers took all their gold coins and put them under the counter so that they couldn�t be offered until stability returned. It was quite a surprising experience to see this all happen in a matter of a few minutes. Conversely, if the gold price took a dump, I wonder if they would announce it to protect the buyers. Yeah, right ! It might help to put things in perspective to realize that you are not buying an expensive coin but are only renting the right to be its custodian for a while. Did you really think you could take it with you beyond the grave ? No, no, it will still be here in the hands of some future custodian when you are dust in some urn on some relative�s mantle. Dear Lord, what was I thinking collecting rare coins that spent years in the back of my dark closet ? An action that could have been out of the film, �Koyaanisqatsi� , which is an Indian word for life out of balance. A lesson finally learned . Don�t keep up with the Joneses. Keep way behind them and enjoy the obscenery. The bottom line here is proportion. Is the money you have tied up in anything in proportion to the rest of your life ? For the last several years I have collected enamel on copper paintings. They are difficult to make as well as to find. Some have to be fired hundreds of times in a kiln at over 1000 degrees. I am amazed at how ridiculously inexpensive they are relative to what it took to create them. To sell them all would not make much difference financially. With my silver coin melting pot renegades and enamel on copper paintings, I find my life in balance for the first time I can remember. And that is priceless. JMHO Best wishes for the same for you, agnut

Veli Hopea | 03-11-2005 02:56 AM
Re: True Value Quote:
Originally Posted by agnut While I was going through this, I was dating my future exwife. And after selling the Ferrari I was not done paying as it took me many years to discover. For, you see, years later when I was having a difficult time in my finances, my wife would say disdainfully to me, �When I married you, I thought you were bucks up�. It didn�t connect until I had divorced her that she had been referring to the Ferrari and had gotten the impression that I was rich. When I was really just a car nut who didn�t know his ego.
That is exactly the kind of woman that I do not want to be my wife. What are the best ways to avoid greedy women? By looking poor? :offtopic: I suppose that intelligent and not so greedy young women could be found in universities.

Silverity | 03-11-2005 04:51 AM
Re: True Value I quite agree. I collect dollar/crown sized coins at lower grades and common dates. I saw one auction on ebay, 100 peace dollars which went for $790, so that worked out about $10 per ounce or a 36% premium over spot. I guess you can buy a 100oz bar for 10% over spot (?), so you are paying a 26% premium in real terms. I consider it a hedge against not so much confiscation, but rationing of silver when the supply squeeze hits. Besides, here in Britain, you are already paying a 30+% premium on silver due to VAT, so why not pay the extra few % for something of more aesthetic value? Silverity.

agnut | 03-11-2005 08:40 AM
Re: True Value Quote:
Originally Posted by Veli Hopea That is exactly the kind of woman that I do not want to be my wife. What are the best ways to avoid greedy women? By looking poor? :offtopic: I suppose that intelligent and not so greedy young women could be found in universities.
Good morning Veli Hopea. I guess the best way to avoid a greedy woman is to first know yourself and then be capable of discerning the heart conditions of others. A good woman will be looking for the riches in your heart and that should be a big clue. If I were to seek a good woman, I would be looking at a friendship as the foundation of a love relationship. Listen to what she talks about and you will know what is on her mind and heart. Honesty and mutual respect are necessary ingredients. A lot of the long term relationships were begun when they were young and sort of grew and matured together like two vines that intertwined and became one. That forms probably the strongest bond I can think of. And children can be an addition to the strength of that bond. Watch couples and how they each treat other and their children. As I told my son when he was about 13, �Become a student of human nature�. He took that advice to heart and it has affected his life more than I could have hoped for. Life is full of surprises. As for finding intelligent and not so greedy women in a university environment, there is no guarantee. When I attended Penn State in the late 1960s, we men had a saying about certain women that they were after a Mrs. degree and it was largely true. It was a youthful prejudice that came and went. Times and attitudes were rapidly changing in those days and if you didn�t have a firm moral foundation, you could get swept up in the latest craze. You are looking for the one mate who fits into your life and you as well fit into her life. Don�t forget, women are nesters by nature. Just like we men are hunter-gatherers by nature. We need to respect each other�s natures. Ridicule is a quick way to tear down a relationship that took many years to build. At my age of 58, I am not looking for a mate. I have my hands full with a 17 year old son with special needs. And two aging and fragile parents. My other 3 children are grown but I am still on the watch for any help I may be able to render. You see, my time may be past for having a relationship as I had my chances when younger and they didn�t work out. I blame myself for most of it. If I were to compare a love relationship to a Morgan dollar, I would have to say that it begins all blazing white and perfect. And through the years, it may take on a beautiful iridescent rainbow toning which only occurs under the most favorable conditions. And like a beautifully toned Morgan dollar, a similar love relationship also carries a high premium in admiration and respect. Look around and you will see a few of these types of rainbow iridescent relationships. But like similar Morgan dollars, they are not common and stand out from the rest. Who knows, maybe we all are looking for that without realizing that we must be a part of the long creation process. Maybe the word toning and tone of voice have more in common that we realize. JMHO (Just My Heartfelt Opinion) Best wishes, Agnut P.S. Oh, don�t forget you are marrying into her whole family and not just her. They will provide a lot of clues if you are a student of human nature. Just don�t be surprised if you find yourself studying the guy in your mirror as well.

SilverStreak | 03-11-2005 09:26 AM
Re: True Value Again Agnut you have written very well on the subject of collector materials---- and PS I had a 1948 Chrysler Woodie that we drove it seldom and sold it 5 years later for about same as the original cost --and glad to get rid of the beast --but it did enrich our lives with some great menories ---and collector coins have only value in the eye of the beholder and so that is why I only have bullion coins and wife of 44 years has a Hummel collection and we stoped years ago as the shelf was full so she still enjoys them but they will go soon as we downsize living areas as we approach the age where the house is too big for us as chrildren are all out of the house many years and it is easier for us to go to their homes ---what a complete cycle ---- Thanks again for writing as you are an interesting person and write very well In the Lords Service SilverStreak

The Argent Dragon | 03-11-2005 10:41 AM
Re: True Value Quote:
Originally Posted by agnut Getting back to the coin collecting, it might be revealing to think of coin collecting (or any other collecting) as filling a hole that should not be there in the first place. That hole is there because it is perceived as less painful to fall into than to fill. Understand, I am not speaking of all collecting. Just the type in which the collector needs to find a self validation. Because of my upbringing, I have been there throughout my life. It is only in the last few years that I have taken the time to reflect on this and change. At least I can help my children understand their options and to examine them before plunging in. A shame that this isn�t taught in schools. Ever wonder why the responsibilities of marriage and parenting are not taught in school ? Ever wonder why the pitfalls of credit and being in debt are not taught in school ? ............................. It might help to put things in perspective to realize that you are not buying an expensive coin but are only renting the right to be its custodian for a while. Did you really think you could take it with you beyond the grave ? No, no, it will still be here in the hands of some future custodian when you are dust in some urn on some relative�s mantle. ..............................
2 of my most favorite paragraphs.......this is great wisdom & thanks for sharing ! :coolbeer: The best deal I've ever made on a car was a 1967 Camaro I bought for $800 and put about $600 in it to get going. ($1400 total)..... I owned this car for about 4 yrs. putting 50,000 miles on it. Then sold it for $2800........ Since then, I've either broke even (on old cars) or been upside-down on new ones....:thumpdown My view of collecting is that I've faired better with buying old stuff (or antiques) and re-selling them for equal value or more whereas BRAND NEW ITEMS depreciate to close at $0...... ON coin collecting, I do it for nostalgia - lost childhood purposes. As a kid I owned only 1 Morgan dollar that my Great Grandma gave me dated 1921 (that I still have today)........owning several or collecting them was an unachievable dream. Now I've assembled a complete date set (28 Morgans) + 33 more towards a full set of 104 different (someday). Although I like to look up their prices, the value is in the whole set that I've assembled. I'm not proud of just 1 super rare - Mr. Jones doesn't have this one - coin. I'm proud of my achievement in bringing together the finest specimens that I can afford to produce a one-of-a-kind Morgan set with unique toned varieties. Here's some food for thought : "It's better to buy a coin for $5 and have it worth $5 than to spend $100 to have it worth only $5." I'm not the next lottery winner, but there are good chances I'll find a coin way underpriced that could be bought for 1% of it's total value. Keep in mind that these treasure finds will NOT be laundered through a 'shark' dealer but perhaps passed on to my daughter when the time comes. :D

Fixture | 03-11-2005 11:42 PM
Re: True Value Fascinating thread. All good points, good questions, good comments. If and when the Crash comes down the pike, you'll need SOMETHING of value to differentiate yourself from the scum, the-masses or them-asses. Silver and gold have recognition and can put you ahead of them-asses. A collectible, slabbed coin? When I was green I bought a few slabbed coins but quickly backed off them in favor of junk and weight. I like "worth" in a tangible fashion. Me and the spouse recently inventoried the stash and were surprised to discover 100 silver dollars, 70 ounces of silver rpounds and $300.00 of silver coinage. We also have a few gimme's of gold. I like the fact that it's stashed in the "box".... the safe and it's available if needed. Would I buy a framed Picasso if his work was all over the place? Nah....I'd probably get a so-called substandard work and hold it near and dear. Thus, with "coinage" get a stash that you are comfortable with, think volume, think weight, but don't think beauty..... dump the so-called "beauties".

agnut | 03-12-2005 02:30 PM
Re: True Value Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverStreak Again Agnut you have written very well on the subject of collector materials---- and PS I had a 1948 Chrysler Woodie that we drove it seldom and sold it 5 years later for about same as the original cost --and glad to get rid of the beast --but it did enrich our lives with some great menories ---and collector coins have only value in the eye of the beholder and so that is why I only have bullion coins and wife of 44 years has a Hummel collection and we stoped years ago as the shelf was full so she still enjoys them but they will go soon as we downsize living areas as we approach the age where the house is too big for us as chrildren are all out of the house many years and it is easier for us to go to their homes ---what a complete cycle ---- Thanks again for writing as you are an interesting person and write very well In the Lords Service SilverStreak
Hi Silverstreak. I have always admired the look of the Chrysler woodie. I once had a calendar that featured a photo of one and it has stuck in my memory ever since. And being an old wannabe surfer from the early 60s, it is hard for me to imagine a woodie without a few surfboards piled inside and a gaggle of bikini clad babes hawking their wares. Your wife�s Hummel collection sounds like a nice balance; reasonable price, a pleasure to look at, easy to display, sale liquidity, broad collector base. Those qualities and probably some more are what will determine whether the collector possesses or is possessed. Things in balance and proportion. Maybe like food (you are what you eat), you are what you collect. Walking into a collector�s room full of ancient torture devices is a far cry from stamp, coin or Hummel collecting. If someone collected antique toilet seats, would he be flattered if you called him a butthead ? I forgot to mention that I collect cartoons and have thousands, some in books and some I have clipped from the cartoon section of the local newspaper. Gary Larson is my favorite and over my computer is a framed blowup of a chubby Einstein, arms akimbo, at his formula filled blackboard with the caption, �Einstein discovers that time is actually money�. In the lower right of the blackboard is a small = $ sign. The comedian Stephen Wright said, �I have a huge seashell collection. Perhaps you have seen it on the beaches around the world.� The ultimate communal attitude; we don�t have to own everything in order to enjoy it. And things are really owned by all since we only have possession of them for a while. If you don�t believe or understand this, try to think of someone throughout history who still has their possessions. The ancient pharaohs didn�t get the message; nice try but no cigar. They are long since dust and someone else has possession of their things. Don�t we want to share our collections with others and that sharing is a sort of joint ownership for a brief while ? Sometimes if someone admires a particular item, I give it to them. It is difficult to know who received more, them or me. I don�t give away my house but I have given away 4 or 5 cars so far. And now that I think about it, I can recall how each of those cars had an effect on the new owners. Not exactly �The Yellow Rolls Royce�, but each memory different and interesting. I guess you could say that an act of giving is actually two acts of receiving. Now why would old agnut write about things and possessing ? It is because I have been thinking about a much larger question. Why would some people want to possess other people ? The delicate flowers of human freedom trampled by the heavy foot of a dictatorial or governmental leviathan. I find it curious that some well known figures are so interested in their legacy. Don�t they realize that if they do their very best that their legacy will take care of itself ? Did Mother Theresa speak of her legacy and her future library or monument to herself ? I am reminded of the scene in �MASH� where hot lips Houlihan, after having been ridiculed by her fellow officers, said tearfully, �My commission, my commission�. What she was referring to was that her officer position given to her by the government was what defined who she was and this symbol was being threatened to the core. Are some of our politicians and other actors screaming, �Look at me !� ? It seems that this phenomena has been more of the past. The present seems more full of control over the population and wealth looting, legacy be damned and full steam ahead. I fear that this is a second stage of governance which may not be brought back to center this time. And we could fall under a more dictatorial rule. I think a craving for power is an as yet unrecognized form of mental illness. I see the battle being waged daily in the media. We are subjected to a daily stream of gun tragedies in the newspapers and T.V. Notice that it is largely one sided and little if any mention of lives saved or protected by gun ownership. It should be obvious that this is a ploy to get the sentiment on the side of the gun control and confiscation crowd. Well, I think actions should have responsibilities and repercussions. Australia recently had gun control and confiscation and their crime went up dramatically. England did the same earlier in the century and their crime is out of control, at least by my standards. If someone breaks into my house and ends up being sliced, diced and pureed, it should be no concern of the law�s. Actually a good example for anyone else thinking of doing the same. Maybe these gun control folks should be required to have a sign prominently displayed on their front yard that they do not believe in guns and have no guns on the property. Sleep tight, y�all ! And maybe judges and lawyers should be required to live in special neighborhoods where half of the homes are occupied by defendants and parolees. And a draft where politicians and their children get first place in line. After all, who allowed war to happen in the first place ? And drug dealers should be publicly executed. To be fair, a week�s notice should be issued beforehand. Maybe we could make it a spectacle like the T.V. show, �Survivor�. Like one old drug dealer on an island with 50 parents (with machetes, of course) of children who died from drug use. Now that is a show I would mark in my T.V. Guide ! Only problem is, after a short while we would have few drug dealers to play the game. Why ? Because they would see that it no longer pays off. The point is, legal or not, the risk/reward ratio determines the degree to which an endeavor will be pursued. One small but important point is that there are many endeavors out there in the world that most people are not aware of nor will they ever become aware. These highly profitable endeavors are what I call niches. And my trite saying is, �Find your niche and scratch it�. I have been fortunate to have found a few such niches and to have profited greatly. They are out there but they are not common; you have to keep looking. Gotta go. I hope this rant makes some sense as I haven�t poofread it. JMHO Best wishes, Agnut

SilverStreak | 03-12-2005 04:07 PM
Re: True Value When I was 30 years younger going to school on East coast under a National Sceince Foundation grant for four summers I started collecting old antique mantle clocks starting about 1820's on up to the first electric ones and I bought pieces of clocks and ones that did not run and worked on them all winter and sold working clocks in the spring and did it all over again the next summer and finally pulled a trailer load of them home in my last year and only kept the 16 best of the clocks and sold hundreds of them and gave them away to children as wedding presents---Still have the very nice 12 starting with a OG made by Chauency Jerome made in 1837 and Steeples and Beehives and Bon China and Gingerbreads and Camel Backs ----Now they are worth many times what I paid for them so have been selling one here and there and putting proceeds into silver bullion

agnut | 03-12-2005 08:16 PM
Re: True Value Darned if I just now looked at the True Value thread heading and recalled a poem I wrote last week. It seems to fit in somehow. Dreams and Things As a young man, of things I dared dream So important at the time they did seem Their possession would make me whole That I made them my primary goal A pathway seeming original and new Took decades to find this not to be true Many paths at the end of the race Converged all to just one sad place Where things piled high and diverse, Dreams traded in, what could be worse ? Since dreams are perfect, all heavenly in form, Things fall short, worldly made the norm And wanting to go back and mend my ways But time is a one way street of days after days So what is to be learned from this tale Now that I near the end of my trail ? Dreams and things are best placed on a scale, A balance pursued , neither too pale. Best wishes, agnut

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The Argent Dragon | 03-15-2005 12:19 PM
Re: True Value Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverStreak When I was 30 years younger going to school on East coast under a National Sceince Foundation grant for four summers I started collecting old antique mantle clocks starting about 1820's on up to the first electric ones and I bought pieces of clocks and ones that did not run and worked on them all winter and sold working clocks in the spring and did it all over again the next summer and finally pulled a trailer load of them home in my last year and only kept the 16 best of the clocks and sold hundreds of them and gave them away to children as wedding presents---Still have the very nice 12 starting with a OG made by Chauency Jerome made in 1837 and Steeples and Beehives and Bon China and Gingerbreads and Camel Backs ----Now they are worth many times what I paid for them so have been selling one here and there and putting proceeds into silver bullion
Nice story - thanks for sharing and proving my point that 'old' things can "appreciate" in value.......:smile: Whether it's considered an "investment" depends on your definition or version thereof.

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