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- - Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=158764)

HistoryStudent | 07-23-2007 11:55 PM
Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? http://www.pcgs.com/prices/ Buy now as the US $ is GONNA get torched soon to who knows how low. Maybe .40 to .50 from .8016 now. :wink:

Reno Chris | 07-27-2007 12:34 AM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? Like stocks and precious metals, it seems like the coin market treads water for a long time and thne, bang! you have 6 months or a year or two of good profits. I have a good amount of numismatic coins and have been lucky enough to ride a few surges. My 3 buffalo in Fine I bought for $225 a few years back lists for over $900 today. I think if you hang on you will be rewarded. Chris

RiverRat | 07-27-2007 05:59 AM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? :rolleyes_m: Don't know...it's any body's guess at this point. Numismatic prices are rising across the board and show no signs of slowing down. We collectors face a conundrum of sorts: Sell while the FRN is going down the toilet or wait and watch it sink to zero. It's not much comfort to sell a 1909 SVDB penny for $3500.00 if the FRNs you get in exchange won't buy 10 ounces of silver due to devaluation. Can you ride the storm out ? ....That is what you should be asking yourself if you have a big numismatic collection. If the FRN implodes,which I think will happen after the Chinese Olympics;the sheep will rush to PM bars and rounds first and/or PM coinage for it's metal content. Numismatic values just might be lower than the actual metal worth of the coinage after the dust settles. I sold every coin that wasn't silver or gold years ago for that very reason and stocked up on key date silver coins as insurance. Use your own judgment :>) :D :D :D :D

Anty Ep | 07-27-2007 05:43 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? key dates get stronger over time as the supply naturally slips into hoards or vanishes due to ignorant people if I had some money instead of just piddling along here, I'd be hunting for good prices on key dates, not bottom feeding like a carp :stupido2:

Baldwin | 07-27-2007 07:00 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? I see numismatic value as based on simply want. It the demand for Coin X drops, then it will return to face value. I stay away from numismatics because if the S hits the F, then I don't want to be stuck with a bunch of worthless old pennies. Give me good old fashioned bullion.

Master_Ho | 07-27-2007 07:22 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldwin (Post 677432) I see numismatic value as based on simply want. It the demand for Coin X drops, then it will return to face value. I stay away from numismatics because if the S hits the F, then I don't want to be stuck with a bunch of worthless old pennies. Give me good old fashioned bullion.
While I do not expect the S to HTF to the same extent many here do (I know we're going to have problems, but I do not think it will be TEOTWAWKI, they'll just change the currency) THIS is the reason I do what numismatics I do almost solely in semi-numismatic gold and silver coins, sort of the mid-way point between bullion and numismatics.

HistoryStudent | 07-28-2007 01:08 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldwin (Post 677432) I see numismatic value as based on simply want. It the demand for Coin X drops, then it will return to face value. I stay away from numismatics because if the S hits the F, then I don't want to be stuck with a bunch of worthless old pennies. Give me good old fashioned bullion.
Yeah, I agree. However, $20 Liberties are close to MELT value on common dates. Now that's bullion and numismatics put together - and they ain't making any stinkin' LIBS anymore are they?

Anty Ep | 07-28-2007 01:18 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? I got my $10 lib in the mail yesterday, nice little coin. :D

Baldwin | 07-28-2007 02:03 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 677998) Yeah, I agree. However, $20 Liberties are close to MELT value on common dates. Now that's bullion and numismatics put together - and they ain't making any stinkin' LIBS anymore are they?
Oh of course, if you can get liberty/old US gold within $40 of spot, take it. I am talking about this rediculous $15,000 flying eagle pennies.

HistoryStudent | 07-29-2007 02:07 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 678005) I got my $10 lib in the mail yesterday, nice little coin. :D
During the 1930s one only made $10 a week for HONEST HARD LABOR. Think about that. Then add the fact in 1933 after taking office FDR (no matter what you think about him) CONFISCATED (from the banks - most sheeple were smart that's why we have so many numismatics) the gold (which was phase II after they made silver a commodity crime Bills of 1873 & 1893) which almost doubled in price per US Govt. order just six months LATER in 1933. "I am not a crook" shoulda-woulda-coulda way before NIXON - oh well, forget it! Point is that $10 in gold should be a good week's worth in dollars. More like $500 to $750 right now. So you BOUGHT LOW! :applause_:applause_:applause_ The thing that concerns me is that they already torched the buck some 98% since 1913 - 90% of which in the last 32 years; so I wonder what they will replace it with, right? GOLD and/or SILVER? - I seriously doubt it - but that would be the honest choice(s). The AMERO to fight the EURO (ZERO)? A UNITED NATIONS one-world taxed currency - I call it FUBAR (F=Fiat U=United Nations B=Beyond A=All R=Recognition) Or you can use the old World War II slang too. F**Ked Up Beyond all Recognition (which is probably closer to the way the Founding Fathers would feel after writing the US Constitution - which is almost FUBAR right now) Almost! So we have the Dollar merging into the AMERO fighting the EURO to end up FUBAR! As the old French saying, "the more things change the more they remain the same."

RiverRat | 07-29-2007 02:43 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? :rolleyes_m: Like a lot of collectors... we need to remember that US coins without PM content have very little value outside the US itself. When TSHTF that roll of uncirculated 1950 D nickels will be worth raw nickel content only to a foreign buyer. Same for all coins that lack PM content. Not trying to scare anybody...look at the big picture pre SHTF and make your own conclusions. I predict every US coin will be reduced to scrap metal value if the economy implodes and the FRN sinks to zero or is maybe devalued to dirt. Dump every valuable numismatic coin you have that has no PM content for insurance...after TSHTF you will possibly never recover your investment in your lifetime. I actually tried to be positive on this numismatic issue for a lot of years until I finally just woke up one morning and said no way...it's not worth the risk of losing it all. I sold every coin in my collection that didn't contain silver or gold and bought more generic bars and rounds of PMs which I could sell or trade anywhere in the world at any time,regardless of TSHTF. It was a hard decision,but offering a merchant an AU 1909S VDB penny worth $500.00 for a bag of beans and having him laugh at me just didn't strike me as a wise long term survival decision if my family was starving. The merchant or individual probably will have no knowledge of US coin values...but silver and gold he will understand very well if the system implodes and we are blasted back to a state of economic hyper depression. Just playing it safe... :D:D:D:D

Ardent Listener | 07-29-2007 03:03 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat (Post 678743) :rolleyes_m: Like a lot of collectors... we need to remember that US coins without PM content have very little value outside the US itself. When TSHTF that roll of uncirculated 1950 D nickels will be worth raw nickel content only to a foreign buyer. Same for all coins that lack PM content. Not trying to scare anybody...look at the big picture pre SHTF and make your own conclusions. I predict every US coin will be reduced to scrap metal value if the economy implodes and the FRN sinks to zero or is maybe devalued to dirt. Dump every valuable numismatic coin you have that has no PM content for insurance...after TSHTF you will possibly never recover your investment in your lifetime. I actually tried to be positive on this numismatic issue for a lot of years until I finally just woke up one morning and said no way...it's not worth the risk of losing it all. I sold every coin in my collection that didn't contain silver or gold and bought more generic bars and rounds of PMs which I could sell or trade anywhere in the world at any time,regardless of TSHTF. It was a hard decision,but offering a merchant an AU 1909S VDB penny worth $500.00 for a bag of beans and having him laugh at me just didn't strike me as a wise long term survival decision if my family was starving. The merchant or individual probably will have no knowledge of US coin values...but silver and gold he will understand very well if the system implodes and we are blasted back to a state of economic hyper depression. Just playing it safe... :D:D:D:D
IMHO, all collectables that hold no true metal value or useful purpose are just luxuery items that hold the interest and desire of a rather small group of people. During good times many people have a surplus of money to devote to such desires. As money becomes tight for them they are looking to sell-off such items to meet their real needs. Of course there are fewer and fewer buyers so the price of such items goes down.

Raccoon | 07-29-2007 03:57 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? This is one of the things Prechter predicts in his book "Conquer the Crash". He thinks that collectibles will lose all their value in a deflationary SHTF scenario.

naccarato | 07-29-2007 04:06 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldwin (Post 678041) Oh of course, if you can get liberty/old US gold within $40 of spot, take it. I am talking about this rediculous $15,000 flying eagle pennies.
I agree, plus I would like to add that if you can get nice shape Morgans or peace dollars for a few bucks over spot that is a good move also.

j-son | 10-11-2007 09:14 AM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? Quote:
Originally Posted by naccarato (Post 678793) I agree, plus I would like to add that if you can get nice shape Morgans or peace dollars for a few bucks over spot that is a good move also.
you still buying morgan/peace dollars?

Anty Ep | 10-12-2007 04:51 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? Quote:
Originally Posted by Raccoon (Post 678785) This is one of the things Prechter predicts in his book "Conquer the Crash". He thinks that collectibles will lose all their value in a deflationary SHTF scenario.
this doesnt make much sense to me. numismatics took off during the great depression, which was a major deflationary episode. collectible values of coins "appeared" where it didnt much exist before. whereas, the POS and POG were stagnant, hell, you couldnt own gold anyhow. I can see a deflationary episode hitting POG hard and taking it back down to $300, easy. If the war fever cooled off, and the international globalist economy cooled too, then you would see commodity prices decrease across the board including pms. So numismatic is not necessarily such a crazy strategy. there is an index of sorts that has been kept for years, I will try to find it and get out the article. the prices of a certain basket of high quality scarce coins has just gone up up ever since its been tallied, I think it was stacks and Salomen bros that began tracking it and then it was secret until a Salomen doofus let it out to a WSJ reporter who ran an article on it back in the 90s. point is, this index has gone up steady, and compares well to the DJIA.

Anty Ep | 10-12-2007 04:53 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? Here is another thing. During hard times, what happens? Lots of rich people crash, but mostly the rich get richer. The top 1% by income level, earned the top 20% of the gross national income, or whatever, acc to a news story today. Consolidation of wealth is what happens. In a SHTF situation, you would see the mean ruthless bastards who clawed their way to the top, hold at the top, by going out and hiring guns to set up little fiefdoms. The successful thrive on chaos. Numismatics, king of hobbies, hobby of kings. Kings aint goin nowhere, they just change what they call themselves.

j-son | 10-12-2007 05:07 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 775983) Here is another thing. During hard times, what happens? Lots of rich people crash, but mostly the rich get richer. The top 1% by income level, earned the top 20% of the gross national income, or whatever, acc to a news story today. Consolidation of wealth is what happens. In a SHTF situation, you would see the mean ruthless bastards who clawed their way to the top, hold at the top, by going out and hiring guns to set up little fiefdoms. The successful thrive on chaos. Numismatics, king of hobbies, hobby of kings. Kings aint goin nowhere, they just change what they call themselves.
What do you think about the potential for a 1927 double eagle st. gaudins ngc ms-65 coin for $1300? thats what i was just offered today...i didnt know much about that stuff though and didnt know if there was any potential upside or is that price already on the high.

DogFarm | 10-12-2007 05:13 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? DogFarm is with River Rat on this. Besides, IMHO, any gold coin is better looking than any non-PM coin. Copper just doesn't do it for DF.

Anty Ep | 10-12-2007 11:18 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? Quote:
Originally Posted by j-son (Post 776022) What do you think about the potential for a 1927 double eagle st. gaudins ngc ms-65 coin for $1300? .
jah, now we're talkin dude. read this. this is the D mintmark. you talkin bout a P though eh? Quote:
http://www.coinfacts.com/double_eagl..._eagle_obv.jpg http://www.coinfacts.com/double_eagl..._eagle_rev.jpg <CENTER><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=10 width=640 bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=middle width=320 bgColor=#f3f8fa> 1927-D $20 OR DOUBLE EAGLE PCGS No: 9187 Mintage: Circulation strikes: 180,000 (virtually all were melted or remain unaccounted for) Proofs: 0 Designer: Augustus Saint-Gaudens (modified by Charles E. Barber) Diameter: ±34 millimeters Metal content: Gold - 90% Other - 10% Weight: ±516grains (±33.4 grams) Edge: |******E|*PLURIBUS*|UNUM***** Mintmark: None (for Philadelphia) above the date) <CENTER></CENTER> The following roster of the known specimens is updated (June 10, 2005) from Heritage’s June 1995 sale of the 1927-D from the Museum of Connecticut History:<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P> </O:P> 1-2) Two specimens in the Smithsonian Institution, from the Denver Mint in 1927. These were viewed by the author in late March 2004. 3) J.F. Bell (Stack's, 12/44), lot 1004, the earliest auction appearance of this issue; Dr. Charles Green Sale (BMM, 4/49), lot 917. 4) The Schermerhorn specimen, sold by Stack's in a private treaty transaction to Josiah K. Lilly in 1953, now on display in the Hall of Money and Medals at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of American History. This may be a duplicate listing of the #3 specimen above. 5) The F.C.C. Boyd Specimen in WGC (Numismatic Galleries, 1/46), lot 1045; sold by private treaty by Stack's to Louis Eliasberg; Eliasberg (B&R, 10/82), lot 1067. 6) Schmandt Collection (Stack's, 2/57), lot 1072. 7) Lester Merkin 10/69 Sale, lot 626; Gilhousen (Superior, 2/73), lot 1041. 8) Auction '84 (Paramount, 8/84), lot 999. 9) 50th Anniversary Sale (Stack's, 10/85), lot 868. 10) PCGS MS-66 - Dallas bank collection, sold by Sotheby’s and Stack’s, October 2001 for $402,500 - Rare Coin Wholesalers - Legend Numismatics 11) Western Collection (Stack's, 10/81), lot 1252; "King of Siam" Collection (B&M, 10/87), lot 2201; Charles Kramer Collection (Stack's and Superior, 11/88, lot 913; Century Collection (Superior, 2/92), lot 3339. 12) Connecticut State Library duplicate, sold by Heritage Numismatic Auctions in June 1995, Lot 6026 for $390,500. This coin is in an NGC MS-66 holder. 13) Connecticut State Library specimen. 14) David Aker’s sale of the Thaine Price collection, May 1998, Lot 115, PCGS MS-65, $577,500. This is most likely a duplicate of one of the examples listed above.<O:P> </O:P> <CENTER> </CENTER> </TD><CENTER><TD vAlign=top align=right width=320><CENTER></CENTER> Images courtesy of Superior Galleries Notes: The finest 1927-D Double Eagle graded by PCGS is a single MS-67. According to Q. David Bowers, you could have purchased an Uncirculated 1927-D Double Eagle in 1932 for face value plus a small handling fee from a price list printed by the Treasury Department. Recent appearances: NGC graded MS-66 (illustrated above). Ex - Superior Galleries "ANA 2001 National Money Show Auction", March 8-9, 2001, Lot 989, unsold, where it was described as follows: "1927-D NGC graded Mint State 66. The legendary status of the 1927-D Double Eagle is not due to a low mintage as with other issues in U.S. numismatics. Instead, its rarity is derived from a very high attrition rate. While it is well known among numismatists that Saint-Gaudens $20 gold pieces were taken up to be melted in the 1930s, it is the 1927-D that furnishes the most graphic proof of how thorough some melting activity actually was. In the case of the 1927-D, it seems nearly the entire coinage succumbed! And yet, this date was not always thought of as rare. The opinion of respected catalogers and researchers from the past actually put the 1924-D and 1926-D ahead of 1927-D in rarity! But then in the 1950s and 1960s, these two other dates appeared in small hoards found in Europe. No 1927-D ever was found among the bullion holdings of European banks. By now, most overseas hoards of American gold have been examined (Europe's bankers are also numismatists, never forget, unlike ours). To our knowledge only a few new discoveries of a 1927-D have surfaced in recent years, including two from a museum collection in Connecticut that sold in 1995. The discovery of those was surrounded by mystery, and unfortunately not much light has been shed on why they went unknown to the numismatic community before 1995. Both were purchased at the time of issue by the numismatic curator of the Museum of Connecticut History. Both resided in that establishment from 1927 until sold in 1995. The question is why nobody in the numismatic community realized they were there! Why there were not included in the roster of known specimens that has been repeatedly reported each time a specimen has appeared over the past twenty years. Walter Breen did his researches in the MCH and many rare coins in the museum's holdings are described in his comprehensive encyclopedia. But the 1927-D Double Eagles somehow escaped his attention! The 1927-D offered here is universally considered as the rarest U.S. gold coin of the 20th century. It has also the distinction of being the rarest coin of any denomination or metal from this century. The only close rival is the Ultra High Relief $20, but a few more examples are known of it than the 1927-D. Several pairs of dies were used to strike the 180,000 1927-D $20 gold pieces that were originally made. However, the majority of known specimens trace to the same die pairing as this coin. There is a short star to star die crack that passes through the top of the L in LIBERTY. Another, longer crack passes from the bottom of the L through the top of the torch and on to the B. On the reverse, a long, near-vertical crack passes through the eagle's beak, and a very short one is seen from above the eagle's eye that crosses the adjoining ray. As is the case with the other known 1927-D Double Eagles, the luster and color are superb on this specimen. The surface is heavily frosted, showing a rich, variegated orange gold color. The strike is complete in all areas as well. Post-striking impairments are minimal, which is clearly revealed in the grade assigned by NGC as well as the photographs we have taken of it. Identifying marks include a single short abrasion through two upper rays just to the left of the end of the torch. Among 20th century U.S. coins there are any number of issues that can be termed "rare" when what is actually meant is "desirable." The 1927-D Double Eagle is a coin that truly earns the title of "rare." Virtually every noteworthy collection of the past fifty years has lacked an example and there are precious few sets of Saint-Gaudens twenties today that can be classified as complete, including the 1927-D. This is a truly rare opportunity for the advanced collector since only a couple of examples of the issue are offered each decade. (Housed in NGC holder 557109-001)" Sources and/or recommended reading: "The PCGS Population Report, April 2005" by The Professional Coin Grading Service Q. David Bowers, "The Joys of Collecting", COIN WORLD, November 29, 1999, page 44 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!--msnavigation--></CENTER></CENTER><!--msnavigation--><!--msnavigation--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD> © Copyright 1999-2005 Collectors Universe, Inc. - all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Collectors Universe, Inc. or the original lender is strictly prohibited! </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Anty Ep | 10-12-2007 11:19 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? heres a buy it now on fleabay for more than that http://cgi.ebay.com/1927-20-ST-GAUDE...QQcmdZViewItem bout 1670$ here is a completed sale of this item at 1358 http://cgi.ebay.com/St-Gaudens-20-Go...QQcmdZViewItem get the 2008 redbook and check that. i left mine at work.

Cassandra | 10-12-2007 11:56 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho (Post 677452) While I do not expect the S to HTF to the same extent many here do (I know we're going to have problems, but I do not think it will be TEOTWAWKI, they'll just change the currency) THIS is the reason I do what numismatics I do almost solely in semi-numismatic gold and silver coins, sort of the mid-way point between bullion and numismatics.
I feel the same way. The premium on semi-numismatic gold & silver is worth it to me, partly because I can imagine scenarios where "bullion" gets confiscated, but your "coin collection" doesn't. I tend to think that even non-pm collector coins will do very well in an inflationary environment, when people are looking for anything lasting to pour their paper into. Deflationary scenario would probably decimate the non-pm coin values, though, imho. Compromise for me is for Morgans, Peace dollars, and the like, common dates in decent condition, and maybe just a few gems.

j-son | 10-13-2007 07:51 AM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? Quote:
Originally Posted by Anty Ep (Post 776728) heres a buy it now on fleabay for more than that http://cgi.ebay.com/1927-20-ST-GAUDE...QQcmdZViewItem bout 1670$ here is a completed sale of this item at 1358 http://cgi.ebay.com/St-Gaudens-20-Go...QQcmdZViewItem get the 2008 redbook and check that. i left mine at work.
the 1927 coin i was talking about is NGC graded and no mint mark is on the holder....just plain 1927 ngc 65 for $1300

silverharp | 10-13-2007 10:32 AM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? bought some half sovereigns at a coin show today for 3% under spot. Thought it was a good deal

HistoryStudent | 10-16-2007 03:09 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? Quote:
Originally Posted by silverharp (Post 777080) bought some half sovereigns at a coin show today for 3% under spot. Thought it was a good deal
They will be half price next year for the price you just paid today. :D That sounds funny. What I meant was that they will DOUBLE in price.

HistoryStudent | 10-19-2007 12:23 PM
Re: Coin market is dead - calm before the storm? Just checked my Gainesville coin site to see prices on the Saints. MS63 were $930 MS64 were $1030 not bad when gold is around $770 now. I read recently that Sinclair or Puplava said inflation adjusted gold coins today are actually cheaper then when gold was $35 an ounce. That's because the world has made so much fiat, period. FROM jsmindset.com Posted On: Thursday, October 18, 2007, 9:52:00 PM EST Blast From The Past Author: Jim Sinclair Dear CIGAs, Note gold is moving up in Asia, so what is there to deny the potential that in terms of gold, �This is it!� It certainly is an entirely different picture than you have seen since gold was at $248. I repeat, all previous strategies should go on the shelf. For the stout of heart it may well be time for the �Texas Spread.� A �Texas Spread� is long and long. Back in the 70s the greatest profit my arbitrage firm ever made is when a partner of mine went in and covered every short they had, leaving them long many tons. The US dollar is well below the largest head and shoulders neckline of the century with a CHART THAT IS A DUPLICATE OF ENRON. No one can deny the absolutely horrid picture that the dollar presents both technically as well as fundamentally. So what is there to say? That today IS NOT THE DAY that is not the end of the beginning, but the beginning of the real end? Operation �White Noise� and drastic increases in international liquidity are not cures for the credit derivative meltdown. All that does is keep investors from melting down as the only positive TIC factor and wealth effect mechanism left is the equity markets. At all costs the equity markets must NOT collapse. They may very well not collapse, but if the equity markets do not, it is only the Weimar Republic case study. The bottom line is �This is it.� Posted On: Thursday, October 18, 2007, 2:40:00 PM EST In The News Today Author: Jim Sinclair "People who look for easy money invariable pay for the privilege of proving conclusively that it cannot be found on this earth." --Jesse Livermore Dear CIGAs, The following is an excerpt from a discussion between CIGA Erik and myself today concerning the inverse relationship between gold and the US dollar. We were pondering the increased degree of this relationship. It is one of the reasons for this evening's Gold Bull and short interloper picture. I too feel the odds favor a parabolic up move in gold very soon. Jim, I would expect the negative correlation to tighten as the price picks up steam. For example, from 1973-1977 the correlation between gold and USDX was -0.086 as gold advanced 146%. From 1976-1980 the negative correlation tightened to -0.673 as gold advanced 352%. If the inverse relationship is beginning to tighten again, a parabolic surge in gold would not be shocking. CIGA Eric Jim Sinclair�s Commentary The most dangerous situation is generally the least boisterous with the greatest potential killing power. Turkey versus the Kurds is market sensitive but Pakistan clearly threatens the world. 108 Dead in Blasts Targeting Bhutto KARACHI, Pakistan (Oct. 18) - A suspected suicide bomber struck Thursday night near a truck carrying former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto on her triumphant return to Pakistan after eight years in exile. An official said 108 people were killed and many were wounded although Bhutto escaped unhurt. Associated Press photographer B.K. Bangash at the scene said he saw between 50 and 60 dead or badly injured people. He said some of the bodies were ripped apart when the blast occurred more than 15 hours into a procession that was carrying Bhutto from the airport to the tomb of Pakistan's founding father, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, where she planned to give a speech. "People were shouting for help but there was no one to help them out. It smelled like blood and smoke," said Bangash, who was 50 yards from Bhutto's truck when he heard a small blast just before midnight. He went closer, and "then I saw a big explosion and dozens of people started running," he said. "It was a smaller car that was blown up. Another police van was fire." More� Jim Sinclair�s Commentary Any opinion at this point that states the US consumer will continue to be a driver of the US economy must be asked which way, up or down. Nearly Half of Americans See Recession Posted: 2007-10-18 17:03:43 WASHINGTON (Oct. 18) -- Nearly half of Americans feel the U.S. economy is in a recession, marked by a significant decline in economic activity, according to a survey released Thursday. The poll by the CNN-Opinion Research Corporation found that while 46 percent of Americans hold that belief, 51 percent don't. Black citizens were more pessimistic than whites, findings show. Sixty-nine percent of black Americans feel the United States is in a recession, while only 42 percent of white Americans feel the same way. The National Bureau of Economic Research defines a recession as "a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP [Gross Domestic Product], real income, employment, industrial production and wholesale-retail sales." More�

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