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- - WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=220536)

Master_Ho | 01-08-2008 06:26 PM
WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Numismatic Guarantee Corporation (NGC) posted a message on its website (and in PDF) warning about counterfeit NGC slabs being on popular on line auctions sites from overseas. NGC�s message points out checking the serial number of the slab is not enough since the counterfeiter is matching the number with the coin information from NGC. There are subtle differences in the label that requires careful inspection rather than a passing glance. Images of the fake NGC and ANACS slabs was posted by UtahCoin on the Collectors Universe forms then posted on the Collectors Society forums. It has been a hot discussion item since. It is important to note that only the old ANACS slabs were counterfeited, not the new Clearview holders. No comment was made by ANACS. In fact, no news has come from ANACS since the official announcement of their sale to James Taylor. UPDATED: As part of the announcement, NGC disclosed that they will be introducing a new holder sometime during 2008. The new holder will have new anti-counterfeiting mechanisms that addresses many of the issues found in this incident. User braddick on the Collectors Society forums found images of a slab from a Chinese company resembling those used by the Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS). It is speculated that it will be a matter of time before fake PCGS slabs are offered for sale. Although it is not proper to stereotype, recent record of China-based sellers has demonstrated a great majority of rare, key, and semi-key date coins are either fake or significantly altered to look better to the detriment of their numismatic value. It highlights the axiom, �if it looks too good to be true, it probably is not true!� Caveat emptor.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Gcubed | 01-08-2008 06:32 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS It was just a matter of time! Wonders of technology.

Master_Ho | 01-08-2008 06:33 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Quote:
Originally Posted by Gcubed (Post 907516) It was just a matter of time! Wonders of technology.
*nods*...............

lhslancers | 01-08-2008 06:36 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Ho thanks for reminding me why I never got the urge to play in that sandbox.

Gcubed | 01-08-2008 06:51 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS As word spreads it should basically kill the business. Coins will have to be cracked out to verify. Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho (Post 907518) *nods*...............

Master_Ho | 01-08-2008 06:56 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Quote:
Originally Posted by Gcubed (Post 907548) As word spreads it should basically kill the business. Coins will have to be cracked out to verify.
Actually - I am hoping both companies change their slabs to something new and harder to fake..........

Gcubed | 01-08-2008 07:05 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Technology always conquers "harder". The question will be "how much will a buyer risk"? $100, $1000, $10,000... When would you crack the slab? Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Ho (Post 907555) Actually - I am hoping both companies change their slabs to something new and harder to fake..........

KASHMAN02 | 01-08-2008 07:07 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Bought coins 3 times from China, ended up with 3 charge backs for phony coins, no more.

Optimus SubPrime | 01-08-2008 08:29 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS great. well this will really screw up numismatics... first the Pandas and now everything else. what a mess.

Master_Ho | 01-08-2008 08:35 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus SubPrime (Post 907796) great. well this will really screw up numismatics... first the Pandas and now everything else. what a mess.
Well, let's hope they nailed it in the bud....... There will always be people creating fake stuff but now that the graders know - they can work on modifying things so they don't get further out of hand. They are not just going to shrug it off.

RiverRat | 01-08-2008 09:47 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS :rolleyes_m: I hate to say... I told you so... But I will... I've probably posted this same warning a few dozen times in the past year. Wow...those guys are slow catching up to reality. Next time they should just log on to GIM... :bear_w00t::D:bear_w00t:

momopanda | 01-08-2008 09:54 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Thanks for posting this Master Ho. It's so disappointing to see this stuff. It's like there's nowhere to go to feel safe in your investments sometimes. You've got conmen counterfeiting everything you buy to try and protect yourself from the counterfeit money the government prints and the counterfeit 'securities' the bankers push. You have to believe the grading firms are going to take this seriously as hell. It could ruin them if left unchecked. Be intersting to see if anyone thinks CLCT (PCGS publicly traded parent) is a sell basedon this news. (though there is the flip side, that the graders will do a booming business exchanging old holders for new). Wonder if they will have discounted rates for that circumstance? I guess the irony here , and the bright side maybe, is that people will go back to buying the coin, instead of the holder. It will make collecting more challenging. Require more experience and commitment. That will be a good thing. So much of 'numismatics' , specifically the slabbed stuff, recently seems to have been little more than bullion with a bow on it. Oh well..There's still one thing they haven't figured out how to counterfeit yet though, and won't. Land. It may get frothy. It may get taxed. It may even get seized someday. But it ain't fake.

Master_Ho | 01-09-2008 01:06 AM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat (Post 907975) :rolleyes_m: I hate to say... I told you so... But I will... I've probably posted this same warning a few dozen times in the past year. Wow...those guys are slow catching up to reality. Next time they should just log on to GIM... :bear_w00t::D:bear_w00t:
On a site where people rarely get credit for things they say when they were right - let me say - clearly - yes you did!!! I remembered it too when I saw this story - one reason I posted it....... Yes, you did!!

TomD | 01-09-2008 10:56 AM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS 1 Attachment(s) Quote:
Originally Posted by KASHMAN02 (Post 907577) Bought coins 3 times from China, ended up with 3 charge backs for phony coins, no more.
I actually bought some real Pandas from a Chinese dealer--- once. A couple of other attempts didn't end as well. Since I have only one slabbed coin, I could congratulate myself on not investing that way but the counterfeiters will eventually cause all of us trouble.

charlie2281 | 01-09-2008 01:54 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS WOW Thankyou Master Ho. I was looking to buy some from China but just saved 5000 by reading your message first:applause_:applause_

SilverNuts@Bolts | 01-09-2008 01:59 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS I have some real fake Picasso's myself. Any buyers? :D

Professur | 01-09-2008 02:17 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Quote:
Originally Posted by Gcubed (Post 907572) Technology always conquers "harder". The question will be "how much will a buyer risk"? $100, $1000, $10,000... When would you crack the slab?
The recording industry produced a new 'uncrackable' security a few years back, and challenged the hacker community to break it. 4 hours later, their million dollar baby was defeated, by running a Sharpie around the perimeter of the disk.

Anty Ep | 01-09-2008 02:22 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS 1- there is no substitute for grading a coin yourself 2- there is no substitute for a good relationship with a reputable dealer that being said, certification still serves its intended purpose, which is not eliminating fraud but rather diminishing it, and this service will help for people wanting additional opinions esp on high dollar coins http://www.caccoin.com/

Maple Leaf Steve | 01-09-2008 02:31 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Except for those $25,000.00 coins the Numismatic industry has been dead for a long time anyway. CNI can't even sell their low grade slabbed $20.00 gold pieces. If you call up their 24 hr. hotline they will tell you so. Numismatics is DEAD! I do have a 1980's Sports Illustrated with Larry Bird on the front. Its not slabbed but its an Unc. would someone like to buy it? :sarcasm:

SilverNuts@Bolts | 01-09-2008 02:36 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leaf Steve (Post 909128) Except for those $25,000.00 coins the Numismatic industry has been dead for a long time anyway. CNI can't even sell their low grade slabbed $20.00 gold pieces. If you call up their 24 hr. hotline they will tell you so. Numismatics is DEAD! I do have a 1980's Sports Illustrated with Larry Bird on the front. Its not slabbed but its an Unc. would someone like to buy it? :sarcasm:
Wana trade 4 my genuine, real [fake] Picasso? :D

Maple Leaf Steve | 01-09-2008 02:38 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverNuts@Bolts (Post 909132) Wana trade 4 my genuine, real [fake] Picasso? :D
No Thanks! hehehehe

Gcubed | 01-09-2008 02:47 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS As bullion prices increase, numismatic premiums decrease. We refined silver dollars by the sack full in 1980. Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leaf Steve (Post 909128) Except for those $25,000.00 coins the Numismatic industry has been dead for a long time anyway. CNI can't even sell their low grade slabbed $20.00 gold pieces. If you call up their 24 hr. hotline they will tell you so. Numismatics is DEAD! I do have a 1980's Sports Illustrated with Larry Bird on the front. Its not slabbed but its an Unc. would someone like to buy it? :sarcasm:

Master_Ho | 01-09-2008 04:50 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverNuts@Bolts (Post 909076) I have some real fake Picasso's myself. Any buyers? :D
Will you accept my fake FRN's in exchange?

justabeginner | 01-10-2008 02:16 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS I would never buy a damned thing from China that could be faked, as it probably is.

pinnacle | 01-10-2008 08:02 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Although I am not doing it now...with Gold at $892....I have purchased alot of raw gold coins at very close to spot prices....mostly St. gaudens and $20 Liberty coins...and sent them in for grading. Have not had one come back as fake.....grades are pretty much mostly in the AU range....with some in MS categories...highest was a MS63....Again...these were all purchased for a premium of then spot value of the coin +5% or less (some were actually purchased at Spot...but that was in the good ole days a few years ago). It all depends on what price you pay. If I had paid a 6 - 20% premium for these coins...it would not have been a good investment...but since the most I have ever paid for one is about $750 (referring to $20 gaudens or $20 liberty coins)....and 90% of these were purchased when gold was under $650...it worked out ok. I usually buy on dips and pay close to spot..knowing I am not buying some coin with alot of numismatic value. I only get them graded so that it should make it easier for me to sell them someday...and I know the condition of the coin...and I like storing them in the slabs (personal preference). I have ended up with a few that were cleaned..but ANACS will grade them and call them "cleaned"...which is ok with me. I pay extra to have them graded...but if you are grading pre-1933 $20 coins....the grading cost is a small percentage of the value of the coin. It would not work to well on $2.50 or $5 gold coins...as you pay $12 - $20 to possibly grade a $200 coin....the math does not work. So...it has worked for me...but as more theives and crooks are probably entering the market due to high gold price...I will probably only stick to straight bullion from someone like Apmex going forward... My 2 cents

Master_Ho | 01-10-2008 08:26 PM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Quote:
Originally Posted by pinnacle (Post 911466) Although I am not doing it now...with Gold at $892....I have purchased alot of raw gold coins at very close to spot prices....mostly St. gaudens and $20 Liberty coins...and sent them in for grading. Have not had one come back as fake.....grades are pretty much mostly in the AU range....with some in MS categories...highest was a MS63....Again...these were all purchased for a premium of then spot value of the coin +5% or less (some were actually purchased at Spot...but that was in the good ole days a few years ago). It all depends on what price you pay. If I had paid a 6 - 20% premium for these coins...it would not have been a good investment...but since the most I have ever paid for one is about $750 (referring to $20 gaudens or $20 liberty coins)....and 90% of these were purchased when gold was under $650...it worked out ok. I usually buy on dips and pay close to spot..knowing I am not buying some coin with alot of numismatic value. I only get them graded so that it should make it easier for me to sell them someday...and I know the condition of the coin...and I like storing them in the slabs (personal preference). I have ended up with a few that were cleaned..but ANACS will grade them and call them "cleaned"...which is ok with me. I pay extra to have them graded...but if you are grading pre-1933 $20 coins....the grading cost is a small percentage of the value of the coin. It would not work to well on $2.50 or $5 gold coins...as you pay $12 - $20 to possibly grade a $200 coin....the math does not work. So...it has worked for me...but as more theives and crooks are probably entering the market due to high gold price...I will probably only stick to straight bullion from someone like Apmex going forward... My 2 cents
You and I have been the same thing - mine bought between $625-750.........all graded MS 63 with two at MS 64..........that was a nice surprise......... Never had a cleaned one - never had a fake.......... I think people here are over-reacting a little to the story - this is something that is just starting and something people should be aware of - but coins graded till recently are fine - there are only a couple of fakes that have shown up so far. GRANTED - there MIGHT be some people buying on Ebay and buying fakes - thats why I posted the article as a warning - but I do not see this as the end of numismatics by ANY stretch of the imagination!

wtshtf1 | 01-11-2008 09:08 AM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Quote:
Originally Posted by Professur (Post 909102) The recording industry produced a new 'uncrackable' security a few years back, and challenged the hacker community to break it. 4 hours later, their million dollar baby was defeated, by running a Sharpie around the perimeter of the disk.
Don't you love it when these guys make "famous last words" pronouncements like this, only to get egg in their face a few days or hours later?!? Microsoft did the same thing recently. An uncrackable code was cracked very easily by a ridiculously easy method, (Don't remember exactly what it was, but I do remember getting good laugh about it.) If there is money or ego involved, if someone can make something "secure" someone will find a way around it!

TomD | 01-11-2008 09:21 AM
Re: WARNINGS ABOUT FAKE SLABBED COINS Quote:
Originally Posted by wtshtf1 (Post 912212) If there is money or ego involved, if someone can make something "secure" someone will find a way around it!
Not always. If you've ever heard of PGP, pretty good privacy (pretty good indeed), it is still unbreakable. AKA public key cryptography.

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